00:00

Anyway, I got one more in a different space that I think Sam will love, love,

Anyway, I got one more in a different space that I think Sam will love, love,

00:04

Sean. Ashaun, I told you about this book I read about Vertical farming, and,

Sean. Ashaun, I told you about this book I read about Vertical farming, and,

00:09

know, basically, like, I read this. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You guys just were talking about crypto stuff, and then he just said, I've got something I think Sam will like. Farming.

know, basically, like, I read this. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You guys just were talking about crypto stuff, and then he just said, I've got something I think Sam will like. Farming.

00:20

Yeah. That big of a redneck to you? I like it too.

Yeah. That big of a redneck to you? I like it too.

00:25

Yeah. I feel like I can root and where to know I could be what I want to,

Yeah. I feel like I can root and where to know I could be what I want to,

00:30

put my all in it like a day's all gonna roll. Let's travel never looking Alright. We have a special guest on the pod today. Fercon is here. He's my old co founder.

put my all in it like a day's all gonna roll. Let's travel never looking Alright. We have a special guest on the pod today. Fercon is here. He's my old co founder.

00:40

Probably the smartest guy I know.

Probably the smartest guy I know.

00:43

Especially tech wise. So we talked about a bunch of things ranging from his last company, Applovin, which just went public at a I don't know, twenty, thirty billion dollar valuation. So we talked about, you know, the humble beginnings of that and and all the way to a massive IPO.

Especially tech wise. So we talked about a bunch of things ranging from his last company, Applovin, which just went public at a I don't know, twenty, thirty billion dollar valuation. So we talked about, you know, the humble beginnings of that and and all the way to a massive IPO.

00:59

What he's doing with his money. You know, so you win the lottery. What are you gonna do? And he talks about his new project that he's building out. And then we talked about a bunch of cool things that he

What he's doing with his money. You know, so you win the lottery. What are you gonna do? And he talks about his new project that he's building out. And then we talked about a bunch of cool things that he

01:09

He shows me. So every every week, we do a I do a call with him called the cool shit hour. Right? I just sit there on video and I just say, hey, show me cool shit that you're interested in because he's,

He shows me. So every every week, we do a I do a call with him called the cool shit hour. Right? I just sit there on video and I just say, hey, show me cool shit that you're interested in because he's,

01:20

like, a total, you know, tech nut. He's on the the bleeding edge of everything. And so that's my hack to learn a bunch of things before they go mainstream.

like, a total, you know, tech nut. He's on the the bleeding edge of everything. And so that's my hack to learn a bunch of things before they go mainstream.

01:28

And, so he talks about, you know, some hardware stuff that he's really interested in, like, a brain wave measuring device that he's wearing. He talks about crypto,

And, so he talks about, you know, some hardware stuff that he's really interested in, like, a brain wave measuring device that he's wearing. He talks about crypto,

01:36

and then we talk about vertical farming and, the future of that. So a bunch of cool topics on that side, I would say there's some part of the crypto stuff that might be over your head. So too many terms, acronym stuff you don't know about. Here's my advice.

and then we talk about vertical farming and, the future of that. So a bunch of cool topics on that side, I would say there's some part of the crypto stuff that might be over your head. So too many terms, acronym stuff you don't know about. Here's my advice.

01:52

Two two ways you could still get value even if you don't fully get it because, hey, I only half get it. Vercon's usually ten steps ahead of me. And so what I've learned in known for, like, almost a decade now is when he thinks something's interesting, instead of just saying, I don't understand that. That's weird.

Two two ways you could still get value even if you don't fully get it because, hey, I only half get it. Vercon's usually ten steps ahead of me. And so what I've learned in known for, like, almost a decade now is when he thinks something's interesting, instead of just saying, I don't understand that. That's weird.

02:09

Lean in. Go Google it later. Look it up. You know, if I had just followed a bunch of the things he was interested in interested in, I would have made a killing, investment wise over the last decade. And I've learned the hard way that that's what I should do. The second thing is,

Lean in. Go Google it later. Look it up. You know, if I had just followed a bunch of the things he was interested in interested in, I would have made a killing, investment wise over the last decade. And I've learned the hard way that that's what I should do. The second thing is,

02:22

he shared a bunch of general advice about how he went about his career, you know, college drop out,

he shared a bunch of general advice about how he went about his career, you know, college drop out,

02:28

choosing jobs that weren't the highest paying job and why he chose it, what he kinda optimizes for. Thought there was some good stuff in there. So if you were not subscribed to this podcast, if you're just listening to this podcast, maybe your friend told you about it, you know what you need to do. Open up the podcast app, Apple,

choosing jobs that weren't the highest paying job and why he chose it, what he kinda optimizes for. Thought there was some good stuff in there. So if you were not subscribed to this podcast, if you're just listening to this podcast, maybe your friend told you about it, you know what you need to do. Open up the podcast app, Apple,

02:42

the iTunes app, or open up,

the iTunes app, or open up,

02:45

Spotify.

Spotify.

02:46

On Spotify, you click follow on the Apple podcast app. You're gonna click thrive. We are climbing the charts. I think we're number twelve in, in maybe business or investing category. And we are breaking into that top ten, and we're not leaving when we get there. So How do we do that?

On Spotify, you click follow on the Apple podcast app. You're gonna click thrive. We are climbing the charts. I think we're number twelve in, in maybe business or investing category. And we are breaking into that top ten, and we're not leaving when we get there. So How do we do that?

03:00

Subscribe. If you've enjoyed this podcast, you get value out of it. Just hit the button. That's all you gotta do. Hit the button. Thank you. So Sean and I are both wearing Harvard shirts. I actually planned this. I saw you a screenshot of you testing

Subscribe. If you've enjoyed this podcast, you get value out of it. Just hit the button. That's all you gotta do. Hit the button. Thank you. So Sean and I are both wearing Harvard shirts. I actually planned this. I saw you a screenshot of you testing

03:14

and I went and grabbed my Harvard shirt. I was about to go on this big, like, what a coincidence? This is amazing.

and I went and grabbed my Harvard shirt. I was about to go on this big, like, what a coincidence? This is amazing.

03:21

No. I, I do have one that I wear.

No. I, I do have one that I wear.

03:24

But I saw you were wearing it. So I wanted to, I wanted to wear the same thing because we normally wear black t shirts. Yeah. And, you know, for the record, neither of us went to Harvard. But we both do this thing where we'll wear Harvard stuff, and then people will be like, oh, Harvard.

But I saw you were wearing it. So I wanted to, I wanted to wear the same thing because we normally wear black t shirts. Yeah. And, you know, for the record, neither of us went to Harvard. But we both do this thing where we'll wear Harvard stuff, and then people will be like, oh, Harvard.

03:38

And then you respond. You're like,

And then you respond. You're like,

03:40

miss that campus. Love it. Love it there. Yeah.

miss that campus. Love it. Love it there. Yeah.

03:43

And you were on a tour and they actually went to Harvard.

And you were on a tour and they actually went to Harvard.

03:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, oh, you wet? Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got a group on. It was lovely. They showed me around. Oh, four? Oh, cool. Yeah. But I was we almost overlapped.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, oh, you wet? Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got a group on. It was lovely. They showed me around. Oh, four? Oh, cool. Yeah. But I was we almost overlapped.

03:55

No. I was there for lunch, but, Yeah.

No. I was there for lunch, but, Yeah.

03:58

Oh, you what was, like, were you there, noon?

Oh, you what was, like, were you there, noon?

04:03

Fircown's even better. Fircown didn't even finish college. So for God is of all of us, he's the most he's the smartest and most successful one, and he was smart enough to drop out after what freshman year. Software here? I was there for a couple of years.

Fircown's even better. Fircown didn't even finish college. So for God is of all of us, he's the most he's the smartest and most successful one, and he was smart enough to drop out after what freshman year. Software here? I was there for a couple of years.

04:15

I mean, I tried to do I went to San Jose State. I tried to do computer engineering because, obviously, that would have made sense, but I was running a company at the time, and every time I was deciding between electrical physics or on the phone with somebody trying to make a deal. And you know, you know which one won. So yeah.

I mean, I tried to do I went to San Jose State. I tried to do computer engineering because, obviously, that would have made sense, but I was running a company at the time, and every time I was deciding between electrical physics or on the phone with somebody trying to make a deal. And you know, you know which one won. So yeah.

04:32

Do you wanna give a background, Sean, furcon? Because, last time he was on, we were way smaller.

Do you wanna give a background, Sean, furcon? Because, last time he was on, we were way smaller.

04:38

Yeah. Fercon is one of my best buddies. He was the guy I started my last company with, or his co founder, CTO.

Yeah. Fercon is one of my best buddies. He was the guy I started my last company with, or his co founder, CTO.

04:46

So, you know,

So, you know,

04:47

most co founder pairings, I would say the most common one is one guy who can build and one guy who can sell, and that's kinda what we were. It's like, I'm I'm more like the sales guy, and he's more the building guy. And, so, yeah, we worked together for, I don't know, six, seven years, sold the company,

most co founder pairings, I would say the most common one is one guy who can build and one guy who can sell, and that's kinda what we were. It's like, I'm I'm more like the sales guy, and he's more the building guy. And, so, yeah, we worked together for, I don't know, six, seven years, sold the company,

05:02

a year and a half ago. For account braved it out made it one full year at a big corporation. So I gotta give them props for that. That's like a, you know, an endurance challenge for you.

a year and a half ago. For account braved it out made it one full year at a big corporation. So I gotta give them props for that. That's like a, you know, an endurance challenge for you.

05:13

But now now he's now he's doing his own thing. So he's got f dot ink, which is how do you describe it? It's, I just wanna build cool things with cool people. That's what I'm focused on. That's really it.

But now now he's now he's doing his own thing. So he's got f dot ink, which is how do you describe it? It's, I just wanna build cool things with cool people. That's what I'm focused on. That's really it.

05:25

I would describe it as,

I would describe it as,

05:26

you know, if you're trying to start something, you want, like, a third co founder It's an interesting emerging tech idea.

you know, if you're trying to start something, you want, like, a third co founder It's an interesting emerging tech idea.

05:33

That's where I get excited, and I wanna put in time and money and incubate these things with you. Alright. I'll give I'll give a different description. I'll give my my view of it. Sweet. Basically,

That's where I get excited, and I wanna put in time and money and incubate these things with you. Alright. I'll give I'll give a different description. I'll give my my view of it. Sweet. Basically,

05:44

Firchenon is investing in him self, like, fifteen years ago, whoever is that person. So if you're, like, a young engineer

Firchenon is investing in him self, like, fifteen years ago, whoever is that person. So if you're, like, a young engineer

05:51

and you wanna make some shit happen and,

and you wanna make some shit happen and,

05:54

Man, it'd be kinda helpful if you had somebody who's been around the block, who's done it before, who can either give you money,

Man, it'd be kinda helpful if you had somebody who's been around the block, who's done it before, who can either give you money,

06:00

advice,

advice,

06:01

bill, actually get in the code and build with you, And so he's got this disc it's kinda like Y Combinator. He's got this discord group. And every single company is, like, I don't know, like a twenty three year old engineer. They get their own channel, and then basically On some of them, Fercon's actually, like, the back end engineer with them. On some of them, he's, like, the tough love investor who's, like, dude, why aren't you focused on growth? Why are you talking about all this other bullshit? And in some cases, it's like,

bill, actually get in the code and build with you, And so he's got this disc it's kinda like Y Combinator. He's got this discord group. And every single company is, like, I don't know, like a twenty three year old engineer. They get their own channel, and then basically On some of them, Fercon's actually, like, the back end engineer with them. On some of them, he's, like, the tough love investor who's, like, dude, why aren't you focused on growth? Why are you talking about all this other bullshit? And in some cases, it's like,

06:25

oh, you you need to move to San Francisco and, like, live on my couch. I think you've done that with a few engineers of, like, literally come here, sleep on my couch, and I'll, like, not just seed fund you. I'll, like, fucking babysit you and incubate you literally and physically in my apartment. I I wanna spend some time actually discussing that because I want I wanna, like, reminisce a little bit, but but first,

oh, you you need to move to San Francisco and, like, live on my couch. I think you've done that with a few engineers of, like, literally come here, sleep on my couch, and I'll, like, not just seed fund you. I'll, like, fucking babysit you and incubate you literally and physically in my apartment. I I wanna spend some time actually discussing that because I want I wanna, like, reminisce a little bit, but but first,

06:46

By the way, we gotta congratulate for Con also. He his he since he's come on, his last company,

By the way, we gotta congratulate for Con also. He his he since he's come on, his last company,

06:52

Applovent, IP owed,

Applovent, IP owed,

06:55

I don't know what what is it at now. And I'll I'll pay close to thirty billion dollars. So, you know Yeah. I was gonna say we we have to give that part of the story, which is for con co founded a company that is currently publicly traded for twenty billion dollars. Yeah. Forcon's rich is one of us. So

I don't know what what is it at now. And I'll I'll pay close to thirty billion dollars. So, you know Yeah. I was gonna say we we have to give that part of the story, which is for con co founded a company that is currently publicly traded for twenty billion dollars. Yeah. Forcon's rich is one of us. So

07:10

That's like a pretty important. Although, it looks you guys did you guys just do an earnings? So something happened today where your stock just plummeted well, not plummeted, but it went down, a fair bit.

That's like a pretty important. Although, it looks you guys did you guys just do an earnings? So something happened today where your stock just plummeted well, not plummeted, but it went down, a fair bit.

07:19

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, All tech stocks are getting ravaged right now. Yeah. But, you know, so Yeah. So congratulations.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, All tech stocks are getting ravaged right now. Yeah. But, you know, so Yeah. So congratulations.

07:26

Like, basically, that company, you guys were supposed to sell it for also, like, a huge amount, like three billion or something like a couple years ago and it and it and it failed. And then it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. It seems Well, well, you should you should explain that. That's a good story. So We're working together. And Fertown's like, dude, like,

Like, basically, that company, you guys were supposed to sell it for also, like, a huge amount, like three billion or something like a couple years ago and it and it and it failed. And then it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. It seems Well, well, you should you should explain that. That's a good story. So We're working together. And Fertown's like, dude, like,

07:43

I got some good news. And he's like, you know, my last company, we're gonna sell for we're gonna sell,

I got some good news. And he's like, you know, my last company, we're gonna sell for we're gonna sell,

07:49

they're gonna sell it, and I think it's, I don't know, what it was, one point four billion or something like that. Right? That that's what the original sale price was.

they're gonna sell it, and I think it's, I don't know, what it was, one point four billion or something like that. Right? That that's what the original sale price was.

07:55

Yeah. I think they put a one point four billion value. I think the terms are something like they're gonna put in a billion dollars and the value would get one point four. They're gonna buy a majority of the company.

Yeah. I think they put a one point four billion value. I think the terms are something like they're gonna put in a billion dollars and the value would get one point four. They're gonna buy a majority of the company.

08:04

Most of the early employees would have gotten liquidated unless you're working there, you would have gotten kind of whatever new brands.

Most of the early employees would have gotten liquidated unless you're working there, you would have gotten kind of whatever new brands.

08:11

Which would have been an amazing outcome anyways. Wow. You built a company one point four billion. That's, you know, that's a win. That's a grand slam. But then something happened. What happened? And how did that work out in your favor? Yeah. So the company was an international company. It's a Chinese company, and twenty sixteen,

Which would have been an amazing outcome anyways. Wow. You built a company one point four billion. That's, you know, that's a win. That's a grand slam. But then something happened. What happened? And how did that work out in your favor? Yeah. So the company was an international company. It's a Chinese company, and twenty sixteen,

08:27

the elections happened. And, you know, all it takes kinda changed a little bit. And I think in that process, like, it started looking like, man, this is, like, not gonna go through. Like, they're not gonna be able to get approval in the US for a foreign entity to kinda buy this thing. And,

the elections happened. And, you know, all it takes kinda changed a little bit. And I think in that process, like, it started looking like, man, this is, like, not gonna go through. Like, they're not gonna be able to get approval in the US for a foreign entity to kinda buy this thing. And,

08:44

so that happened. And then there's some time, you know, in every contract, when a sale happens, there's, like, all these triggers. Right? Like, hey, gotta complete by so and so date. If it doesn't happen, then, you know, whatever the contract might end, And I think in that time, I mean, I wasn't at Apple when I was working with you, but, you know, every time I talk to somebody there, they were like, dude, we're still crushing it. We're growing, and it's still kinda scaling up. And so it looked like the deal was not gonna happen. The company had, like, multiplied in value during that time. And so now there's, like, all this leverage on the company side to be like, well, don't actually need this sale. Right? Like, we're a lot bigger than what that value was. And I think they turned it into an investment instead

so that happened. And then there's some time, you know, in every contract, when a sale happens, there's, like, all these triggers. Right? Like, hey, gotta complete by so and so date. If it doesn't happen, then, you know, whatever the contract might end, And I think in that time, I mean, I wasn't at Apple when I was working with you, but, you know, every time I talk to somebody there, they were like, dude, we're still crushing it. We're growing, and it's still kinda scaling up. And so it looked like the deal was not gonna happen. The company had, like, multiplied in value during that time. And so now there's, like, all this leverage on the company side to be like, well, don't actually need this sale. Right? Like, we're a lot bigger than what that value was. And I think they turned it into an investment instead

09:21

with, like, non voting or, you know, some some kind of distinction there, and we ended up getting some liquidity then, which was fantastic. It was like over a billion dollars, like, felt great. I felt like that was the exit.

with, like, non voting or, you know, some some kind of distinction there, and we ended up getting some liquidity then, which was fantastic. It was like over a billion dollars, like, felt great. I felt like that was the exit.

09:33

Felt like that change, you know, kind of what I could do in my life in terms of where I spend my time.

Felt like that change, you know, kind of what I could do in my life in terms of where I spend my time.

09:39

But then they just kept growing. The company kept building,

But then they just kept growing. The company kept building,

09:41

and, they continued down the path. They partnered with, KKR,

and, they continued down the path. They partnered with, KKR,

09:45

and, you know, brought on, I think Harold is on, you know, the executive team now, he's a decent vet in the industry, and they've just continued just to kind of, you know, skyrocket and, I don't know.

and, you know, brought on, I think Harold is on, you know, the executive team now, he's a decent vet in the industry, and they've just continued just to kind of, you know, skyrocket and, I don't know.

09:58

To to to dumb it down. AppLoven is basically,

To to to dumb it down. AppLoven is basically,

10:01

like, they you guys helped invent

like, they you guys helped invent

10:04

advertisements that you see in the middle of iPhone games. Correct? Yeah. So we started as an ad tech platform. That's when I was there. And, you know, then after that, they brought up, you know, kind of a the gaming side. So they have a gaming studio which generates a lot of revenue

advertisements that you see in the middle of iPhone games. Correct? Yeah. So we started as an ad tech platform. That's when I was there. And, you know, then after that, they brought up, you know, kind of a the gaming side. So they have a gaming studio which generates a lot of revenue

10:19

if you think of them as, like, almost like a first party game raider now, that's where I think the company's gone.

if you think of them as, like, almost like a first party game raider now, that's where I think the company's gone.

10:26

They bought Machine Zone. Right? So they they acquired a bunch of studios. They have their own studio. So they're almost more a gaming company than a mobile ad network now. So that's kinda crazy. But the funny part is I remember you telling me, like, oh, you know, we kinda did this sale, then a piece of paper's gonna go sit on someone's desk. Trump comes into office. And now know, I think it was a Chinese company. A Chinese company is buying this anything that's over a billion dollars. I believe there's some rule that it has to get, like, you know, a certain type of approval for the transaction to go through. And then it just sat there for, like, I don't know how many months, six months, nine months, something like that. And then when they came out of that, he's like, yeah, by the way, like, we kinda get the best of both worlds. They may, you know, their buyout turned into a minority investments. We still got the money, but we get this free role of, great, how big can we build this, and then fast forward a few years. And it goes public, at, like, we just kinda skipped Twenty times the value, you know? We just kinda skipped over something pretty amazing, which is he kinda was casual about it. You guys both were. Basically, you built this ad network that was doing wonderfully a huge company. And,

They bought Machine Zone. Right? So they they acquired a bunch of studios. They have their own studio. So they're almost more a gaming company than a mobile ad network now. So that's kinda crazy. But the funny part is I remember you telling me, like, oh, you know, we kinda did this sale, then a piece of paper's gonna go sit on someone's desk. Trump comes into office. And now know, I think it was a Chinese company. A Chinese company is buying this anything that's over a billion dollars. I believe there's some rule that it has to get, like, you know, a certain type of approval for the transaction to go through. And then it just sat there for, like, I don't know how many months, six months, nine months, something like that. And then when they came out of that, he's like, yeah, by the way, like, we kinda get the best of both worlds. They may, you know, their buyout turned into a minority investments. We still got the money, but we get this free role of, great, how big can we build this, and then fast forward a few years. And it goes public, at, like, we just kinda skipped Twenty times the value, you know? We just kinda skipped over something pretty amazing, which is he kinda was casual about it. You guys both were. Basically, you built this ad network that was doing wonderfully a huge company. And,

11:25

like, I I I'm gonna say in the same way. But basically, you saw which game for doing cool and you go, we're just gonna make games kinda like that and make them popular because we already know what's popular before even the people making the games know what's popular. And now you make all your revenue from making games. I mean, that's pretty astounding. Right? Yeah. I mean,

like, I I I'm gonna say in the same way. But basically, you saw which game for doing cool and you go, we're just gonna make games kinda like that and make them popular because we already know what's popular before even the people making the games know what's popular. And now you make all your revenue from making games. I mean, that's pretty astounding. Right? Yeah. I mean,

11:43

I saw all of this from the outside, but, like, there's some key players in the company that I think were really instrumental on this. There's this guy Raffy. He, like, when when I, you know, when we kinda created Apple and when we were working on the products before Apple,

I saw all of this from the outside, but, like, there's some key players in the company that I think were really instrumental on this. There's this guy Raffy. He, like, when when I, you know, when we kinda created Apple and when we were working on the products before Apple,

11:56

this guy was just like somebody Adam knew. He knew his brother. He had worked with them before. There's like this nineteen year old guy. He's not gonna go to college. He's, you know, all he wants to do is, like, do something big and play video So, like, he spent all day all night playing speed fighter, but then he would talk to every single kind of Japanese mobile gaming company all night And he would just grind and it was an awesome environment. I mean, I'm kinda like the person where, like, if I get really excited about something, that's all I wanna do, that's all I was doing at the time. So I'm at the office. Raffy's at the office. You know, we spend all night. I'm here in his conversations. I get pumped up about it. And then kinda during the day, we're building all these things. And you just saw people everywhere in the company that wanted to do something big and went and got it. So Raffy, I think at some point in this ad network was like, oh, I need I wanna build games

this guy was just like somebody Adam knew. He knew his brother. He had worked with them before. There's like this nineteen year old guy. He's not gonna go to college. He's, you know, all he wants to do is, like, do something big and play video So, like, he spent all day all night playing speed fighter, but then he would talk to every single kind of Japanese mobile gaming company all night And he would just grind and it was an awesome environment. I mean, I'm kinda like the person where, like, if I get really excited about something, that's all I wanna do, that's all I was doing at the time. So I'm at the office. Raffy's at the office. You know, we spend all night. I'm here in his conversations. I get pumped up about it. And then kinda during the day, we're building all these things. And you just saw people everywhere in the company that wanted to do something big and went and got it. So Raffy, I think at some point in this ad network was like, oh, I need I wanna build games

12:41

They had built this thing called Lion Studios within Applevin. I don't think it was very big at the start. Like, it was kind of like some small games, but Raffia, I think he probably gets a lot of the credit to, like, kinda spearheading that. I'm like, just wanting to do it. And, you know, when I looked at the s one and kind of, like, dug into it, it's like, think it's like half the business now. You know, the there's obviously details on how you determine where the business is, but I think it's like half the company, which is incredible. Right? Like, started with this ad network, and then, you know, in two to three years kind of at towards the end of of this going public era, issues now have been built up the second part of the business is also And you and the guy who started at Lebanon, I mean, it was a few of you guys, but, like, the main guy, his name's Adam. Right? Yeah, Adam. And basically, he had, like, a I don't know if it was mild or or very successful outcome at another thing. And didn't you say that he put in, like, four million dollars of his own money, which I don't know if that was a lot or a little to him but, a pretty substantial amount of his own money. And

They had built this thing called Lion Studios within Applevin. I don't think it was very big at the start. Like, it was kind of like some small games, but Raffia, I think he probably gets a lot of the credit to, like, kinda spearheading that. I'm like, just wanting to do it. And, you know, when I looked at the s one and kind of, like, dug into it, it's like, think it's like half the business now. You know, the there's obviously details on how you determine where the business is, but I think it's like half the company, which is incredible. Right? Like, started with this ad network, and then, you know, in two to three years kind of at towards the end of of this going public era, issues now have been built up the second part of the business is also And you and the guy who started at Lebanon, I mean, it was a few of you guys, but, like, the main guy, his name's Adam. Right? Yeah, Adam. And basically, he had, like, a I don't know if it was mild or or very successful outcome at another thing. And didn't you say that he put in, like, four million dollars of his own money, which I don't know if that was a lot or a little to him but, a pretty substantial amount of his own money. And

13:38

you guys kinda, like, dicked around for, like, two years, like, point,

you guys kinda, like, dicked around for, like, two years, like, point,

13:42

like, you would say that, like, well, let's try this and it didn't work. And you're like, let's just go play video games and think about it. Or, like, it, like, wasn't there, like, something like that? We're like, we'll figure it out. Yeah. I mean, Adam John and Andrew were, like, the three co founders that, like, they had worked together before. They had some done done a couple of other companies that did well. I mean, John is, like, Nobody knows John, but John is, like, he worked on the first ad server on the internet. I believe that got picked up by double click and, you know, kind of that went on to Google, and then he worked at, like, VM where he had done all these different roles. He's, like,

like, you would say that, like, well, let's try this and it didn't work. And you're like, let's just go play video games and think about it. Or, like, it, like, wasn't there, like, something like that? We're like, we'll figure it out. Yeah. I mean, Adam John and Andrew were, like, the three co founders that, like, they had worked together before. They had some done done a couple of other companies that did well. I mean, John is, like, Nobody knows John, but John is, like, he worked on the first ad server on the internet. I believe that got picked up by double click and, you know, kind of that went on to Google, and then he worked at, like, VM where he had done all these different roles. He's, like,

14:12

technical,

technical,

14:13

but then very marketing focus, very product focus.

but then very marketing focus, very product focus.

14:17

And, you know, so it's, like, he was just an interesting person to have in the mix. And then Adam is, like, he had already kind of know, he started, I think, in equities trading and the Chicago stock exchange and then gotten into, you know, ads and marketing. And then they had built a company. I believe it was called

And, you know, so it's, like, he was just an interesting person to have in the mix. And then Adam is, like, he had already kind of know, he started, I think, in equities trading and the Chicago stock exchange and then gotten into, you know, ads and marketing. And then they had built a company. I believe it was called

14:33

And I can't remember what they said. Gamefly or, you know, some something like that. And it was like

And I can't remember what they said. Gamefly or, you know, some something like that. And it was like

14:38

probably a really good outcome, but then not you know, it wasn't like a massive outcome where he's like, oh, I can retire forever and I can, you know, like, this is all I wanna do and I've kinda made it. And in the first couple of conversations with him, I remember walking down, university avenue with him, and he was just like, you know, I wanna make something so big that I can walk down this street and people would know me. It's like university avenue in Palo Alto, for people to know you, you must have done something, like, really big. Right? It's like, every who's who in tech walks down there. And I was like, okay. That wants to kinda like take a really big shot, but the them three put in the initial funding. I think it was like around four or five million bucks if I remember correctly, but It was a lot in the sense that it gave us many years of runway.

probably a really good outcome, but then not you know, it wasn't like a massive outcome where he's like, oh, I can retire forever and I can, you know, like, this is all I wanna do and I've kinda made it. And in the first couple of conversations with him, I remember walking down, university avenue with him, and he was just like, you know, I wanna make something so big that I can walk down this street and people would know me. It's like university avenue in Palo Alto, for people to know you, you must have done something, like, really big. Right? It's like, every who's who in tech walks down there. And I was like, okay. That wants to kinda like take a really big shot, but the them three put in the initial funding. I think it was like around four or five million bucks if I remember correctly, but It was a lot in the sense that it gave us many years of runway.

15:18

We work on whatever. We started with one project called style page did that for like nine months. That was kind of like Pinterest. We really quickly realized we're like, you know, five dudes in like Palo Alto with no fashion sense trying to build a fashion website. This is not gonna work very well. Yeah. Like,

We work on whatever. We started with one project called style page did that for like nine months. That was kind of like Pinterest. We really quickly realized we're like, you know, five dudes in like Palo Alto with no fashion sense trying to build a fashion website. This is not gonna work very well. Yeah. Like,

15:34

you know, just wrangler jeans dot com. It's that easy. That's your website where you can stop, you know, you you'll get a Pinterest board to find lee jeans.

you know, just wrangler jeans dot com. It's that easy. That's your website where you can stop, you know, you you'll get a Pinterest board to find lee jeans.

15:41

Yeah. Exactly. And, and then we make mess around with a lot of different ideas, and some of them weren't very good. And I think, Sean, we we dealt with this a lot. Right? Like, get excited about something because you have to come up with an idea. You make it you're not really that confident with it. Before you even launch, you're like, this trash. I don't I don't even want this anymore to get it away from me. And so there was definitely some of that.

Yeah. Exactly. And, and then we make mess around with a lot of different ideas, and some of them weren't very good. And I think, Sean, we we dealt with this a lot. Right? Like, get excited about something because you have to come up with an idea. You make it you're not really that confident with it. Before you even launch, you're like, this trash. I don't I don't even want this anymore to get it away from me. And so there was definitely some of that.

16:02

Yeah. But you you had the I think one of the things worth mentioning is that you

Yeah. But you you had the I think one of the things worth mentioning is that you

16:06

which I think it's worth mentioning because I remember

which I think it's worth mentioning because I remember

16:09

every time I built a company, I'm always like, well, this is just how I'm doing it. It's probably real wrong, but, like, don't know. The smart people probably do it this other way. And I remember you I remember feeling very comforted when you told me, like, yeah, that bloke, when we went through nine ideas,

every time I built a company, I'm always like, well, this is just how I'm doing it. It's probably real wrong, but, like, don't know. The smart people probably do it this other way. And I remember you I remember feeling very comforted when you told me, like, yeah, that bloke, when we went through nine ideas,

16:24

you know, is it this? Is it that? Is it this? Is it that? I'm like, you know, some false hopes of, like, oh, it kinda works. No. It's not gonna work out. And then in between, you're like, There were some days. We just came into the office. We didn't have the idea to work on. And so we just played fifa for a bunch of hours, and we would go eat, talk,

you know, is it this? Is it that? Is it this? Is it that? I'm like, you know, some false hopes of, like, oh, it kinda works. No. It's not gonna work out. And then in between, you're like, There were some days. We just came into the office. We didn't have the idea to work on. And so we just played fifa for a bunch of hours, and we would go eat, talk,

16:39

come back, place more Viva, then we would go home. And, like, there were days, like, weeks like that. And I remember thinking, alright, this probably not the, like, the method you should choose, but, like, it reminded me that, like, success is not so

come back, place more Viva, then we would go home. And, like, there were days, like, weeks like that. And I remember thinking, alright, this probably not the, like, the method you should choose, but, like, it reminded me that, like, success is not so

16:51

glamorous. Like, you know, they show in the movies where it's like, oh, I have the idea. I'm a visionary.

glamorous. Like, you know, they show in the movies where it's like, oh, I have the idea. I'm a visionary.

16:56

I got it right away from day one, then we work hard and we just, a, b, c, d, e, it's done. You know? And so, I don't know. Is that a fair representation of what you with what you experience?

I got it right away from day one, then we work hard and we just, a, b, c, d, e, it's done. You know? And so, I don't know. Is that a fair representation of what you with what you experience?

17:06

Yes. Definitely nonlinear. I mean, you can work really, really hard for a long time and feel like you've made zero progress. And you could be doing all the right stuff. You could be making the right calls and The other challenge is you don't know. Like, you don't get feedback right away on the things you're doing are are good. I mean, you get customer feedback, but you don't get this kinda made of feedback that, like, the general type of things I'm working on are gonna kind of work and hit and,

Yes. Definitely nonlinear. I mean, you can work really, really hard for a long time and feel like you've made zero progress. And you could be doing all the right stuff. You could be making the right calls and The other challenge is you don't know. Like, you don't get feedback right away on the things you're doing are are good. I mean, you get customer feedback, but you don't get this kinda made of feedback that, like, the general type of things I'm working on are gonna kind of work and hit and,

17:30

I mean, style page was kind of one idea that we really dug ourselves into that everything between style page and then Apple and the ad network

I mean, style page was kind of one idea that we really dug ourselves into that everything between style page and then Apple and the ad network

17:39

was just, like,

was just, like,

17:41

you know,

you know,

17:42

it's just, like, kinda really small projects that you're not super confident about. You're trying to find some edge. You're trying to learn something

it's just, like, kinda really small projects that you're not super confident about. You're trying to find some edge. You're trying to learn something

17:49

And, you know, mobile was just getting big. Android was getting big. There's some opportunities there, but you just don't know, you know, it's like how VR is today. You're like, I believe it's gonna be a lot bigger in the future.

And, you know, mobile was just getting big. Android was getting big. There's some opportunities there, but you just don't know, you know, it's like how VR is today. You're like, I believe it's gonna be a lot bigger in the future.

18:00

What is exactly what people are gonna do? It's really hard to predict. And when you tell somebody, they usually go, nobody's gonna do that. Like, Well, if nobody can predict these behaviors, how do we build them? You have to have this kind of, like, blind conviction towards something and also, like, get that right. So it's

What is exactly what people are gonna do? It's really hard to predict. And when you tell somebody, they usually go, nobody's gonna do that. Like, Well, if nobody can predict these behaviors, how do we build them? You have to have this kind of, like, blind conviction towards something and also, like, get that right. So it's

18:17

Yeah. You need you definitely need some luck. You gotta pick the right thing. This is Adam. How do you say how do you say Adam's last name?

Yeah. You need you definitely need some luck. You gotta pick the right thing. This is Adam. How do you say how do you say Adam's last name?

18:24

So faroogee, Adam Froogee, he's the CEO now. And from what I've read about him, I don't know him. He seems like a wonderful CEO. Like, the glass door reviews are great. He was on awards. He seems like a lovely guy. I've seen interviews with him. And then but what you're describing is, like, a bunch of really, like, relaxed calm. People just like,

So faroogee, Adam Froogee, he's the CEO now. And from what I've read about him, I don't know him. He seems like a wonderful CEO. Like, the glass door reviews are great. He was on awards. He seems like a lovely guy. I've seen interviews with him. And then but what you're describing is, like, a bunch of really, like, relaxed calm. People just like,

18:40

I'm I'm kinda dismissing it, but not really. Like, you guys are just kind of messing around and like,

I'm I'm kinda dismissing it, but not really. Like, you guys are just kind of messing around and like,

18:45

trying to hope it, yeah, which isn't, of course, that's not the reality. But How did this guy go from being this like kind of relaxed calm dude just trying to hang out and find a hit to leading a twenty billion dollar publicly traded company. I mean, when I look at him, he looks pretty polished. He looks like a good good guy. That that's like a pretty amazing transformation.

trying to hope it, yeah, which isn't, of course, that's not the reality. But How did this guy go from being this like kind of relaxed calm dude just trying to hang out and find a hit to leading a twenty billion dollar publicly traded company. I mean, when I look at him, he looks pretty polished. He looks like a good good guy. That that's like a pretty amazing transformation.

19:06

Yeah. And so I I think re relax is probably the wrong the wrong word. I mean, we were intense. When we played fifa, it was like, I'm gonna beat you eight times a row. It wasn't,

Yeah. And so I I think re relax is probably the wrong the wrong word. I mean, we were intense. When we played fifa, it was like, I'm gonna beat you eight times a row. It wasn't,

19:15

casual game of fifa, fifa. So everything was competitive, and we would play mobile games competitively. That was a lot of our interest. Like, App loving when we started was actually an app where you could see blood games and apps other people were playing in your social network. It was like kinda like a feat of app. That was the first iteration of Applovin,

casual game of fifa, fifa. So everything was competitive, and we would play mobile games competitively. That was a lot of our interest. Like, App loving when we started was actually an app where you could see blood games and apps other people were playing in your social network. It was like kinda like a feat of app. That was the first iteration of Applovin,

19:34

and it was because we just wanted to see what people were playing because we wanted to kinda get those games and be competitive within it. He's always been competitive. I think you really,

and it was because we just wanted to see what people were playing because we wanted to kinda get those games and be competitive within it. He's always been competitive. I think you really,

19:42

see that in him and but you also used to say, like, like, furcon's work schedule is, like, roll into the office at eleven,

see that in him and but you also used to say, like, like, furcon's work schedule is, like, roll into the office at eleven,

19:50

lunch with the crew, catch up on what people are up to. Just starts getting humming around. You know, it does a couple meetings. Starts getting hung around three, four. And then, basically, like, by, like, eight PM to three AM is when Ferkant does his work. And then he repeats it the next day. And so for I remember in our company, there was a bunch of people who were just, you know,

lunch with the crew, catch up on what people are up to. Just starts getting humming around. You know, it does a couple meetings. Starts getting hung around three, four. And then, basically, like, by, like, eight PM to three AM is when Ferkant does his work. And then he repeats it the next day. And so for I remember in our company, there was a bunch of people who were just, you know,

20:10

regular human beings that would work in a nine to five, and then they would go turn off their brain and go home. And, like, for some of them, it was really hard to have a boss and kind of like a leader who's on a completely alternate schedule. Some people were totally fine with it. They they made it work. And then we recruited a bunch of, like, raffy type dudes who were, like, oh, cool. We stay up till three AM here. Like, great. That's my optimal schedule too. Like, I'm down with that. And so, but at at Lubbin, had told me that Adam was the opposite. He was coming at nine, leave at four or five, whatever. He's got, like, five kids, I think. And, like, every minute was efficient. Whereas,

regular human beings that would work in a nine to five, and then they would go turn off their brain and go home. And, like, for some of them, it was really hard to have a boss and kind of like a leader who's on a completely alternate schedule. Some people were totally fine with it. They they made it work. And then we recruited a bunch of, like, raffy type dudes who were, like, oh, cool. We stay up till three AM here. Like, great. That's my optimal schedule too. Like, I'm down with that. And so, but at at Lubbin, had told me that Adam was the opposite. He was coming at nine, leave at four or five, whatever. He's got, like, five kids, I think. And, like, every minute was efficient. Whereas,

20:41

I gotta say, like, the way you work, it's not that every minute is, like, boom, boom, boom. I'm doing this, this, this, this, like, even at our company, we would take video game breaks every day at four PM. We'd go play super chose for an hour. Right? Like, you had very opposite styles, but you guys made it work.

I gotta say, like, the way you work, it's not that every minute is, like, boom, boom, boom. I'm doing this, this, this, this, like, even at our company, we would take video game breaks every day at four PM. We'd go play super chose for an hour. Right? Like, you had very opposite styles, but you guys made it work.

20:55

Yeah. I think Adam is, like, make every minute count. And you see that in how we, like, operates. And that's why he's the CEO of a twenty billion dollar company is because everything happens very fast, very efficiently,

Yeah. I think Adam is, like, make every minute count. And you see that in how we, like, operates. And that's why he's the CEO of a twenty billion dollar company is because everything happens very fast, very efficiently,

21:07

like, when a decision is made, the whole company knows about it. When the movement's happening, it's immediate. It's like,

like, when a decision is made, the whole company knows about it. When the movement's happening, it's immediate. It's like,

21:13

make decisions fast be strong with your kind of movements, you know, outside of it, follow through with it quickly. Like, those are qualities I think are really, really critical in a CEO. I mean, for me, it's, like, I wanna make, obviously, every day count. Like, I work a lot when I'm excited about something, and the app loving times was that. When something's growing, I take it seriously.

make decisions fast be strong with your kind of movements, you know, outside of it, follow through with it quickly. Like, those are qualities I think are really, really critical in a CEO. I mean, for me, it's, like, I wanna make, obviously, every day count. Like, I work a lot when I'm excited about something, and the app loving times was that. When something's growing, I take it seriously.

21:32

But, you know, I know that, creative work is, like, it happens in kind of these moments of flow. If you get two or three good flow states a week, feel like you produce a lot. And I think most developers or creative people or builders, they'll feel this. Like, not every hour is super efficient,

But, you know, I know that, creative work is, like, it happens in kind of these moments of flow. If you get two or three good flow states a week, feel like you produce a lot. And I think most developers or creative people or builders, they'll feel this. Like, not every hour is super efficient,

21:49

There's there's these sometimes where maybe it's because you did all this stuff to build up to it or you got the right conditions. But do you hit, like, three or four of those a week, man, you're you're really, you know, humming. You're producing a lot and a lot of impacts happening. And so I always focus on impact. And, you know, I think it was a good pairing because I would just work super hard to go and tackle the next, like, tech technology barrier with my team. And then the next morning, Adam would just drive a bunch of traffic. By the time I rolled in at noon, it was like, we knew the test or not. And, you know, that was, like, awesome just to feel. The first time I've ever felt somebody,

There's there's these sometimes where maybe it's because you did all this stuff to build up to it or you got the right conditions. But do you hit, like, three or four of those a week, man, you're you're really, you know, humming. You're producing a lot and a lot of impacts happening. And so I always focus on impact. And, you know, I think it was a good pairing because I would just work super hard to go and tackle the next, like, tech technology barrier with my team. And then the next morning, Adam would just drive a bunch of traffic. By the time I rolled in at noon, it was like, we knew the test or not. And, you know, that was, like, awesome just to feel. The first time I've ever felt somebody,

22:21

like,

like,

22:22

take control of growth and, like, literally say, actually, we're gonna get this answer today. And, obviously, if you have, like, you know, a good bank account and you can kind of fund it, you can spend money to make your answers happen faster. We got a lot of cycles in in those, you know, times when we were building these crap apps. We didn't waste, like, a year building some garbage app because very quickly we knew it wasn't gonna work and why, and we tried all the variants of it, and we got We had, like, confidence that we were done with that idea. Like, oh, we tried it. It's not gonna work. We're not gonna be lingering about this. You know? So let let's switch to idea. So me and you do a call every week

take control of growth and, like, literally say, actually, we're gonna get this answer today. And, obviously, if you have, like, you know, a good bank account and you can kind of fund it, you can spend money to make your answers happen faster. We got a lot of cycles in in those, you know, times when we were building these crap apps. We didn't waste, like, a year building some garbage app because very quickly we knew it wasn't gonna work and why, and we tried all the variants of it, and we got We had, like, confidence that we were done with that idea. Like, oh, we tried it. It's not gonna work. We're not gonna be lingering about this. You know? So let let's switch to idea. So me and you do a call every week

22:56

It's one hour, and it's called the cool shit hour. Every time I do it, I'm like, damn, I wish I've recorded that for myself, but also people would love this. And so I I wanna do that basically now. Guys do this every week?

It's one hour, and it's called the cool shit hour. Every time I do it, I'm like, damn, I wish I've recorded that for myself, but also people would love this. And so I I wanna do that basically now. Guys do this every week?

23:08

Yeah. We've sometimes missed some weeks, but, you know, I had a kid and stuff like that. But we've been doing it for, pretty regularly for a couple ever since he left you know, Twitch, I was like, well, I still wanna hang out and keep in touch. It's like the best part of when we used to work together was just shooting the shit about stuff that's cool. And because Fergon, in his own words, he told me this once was, like, I'm kind of in the first ten thousand people to try any new technology and, like, really dive deep and understand it. Because he does that, he just sees a bunch of cool shit before the mainstream does. And so my hack is, well, I'm never gonna be as smart as this guy. Never gonna understand technology. I'm not gonna learn how to code, but I can be friends with him, and he could, like, explain it to me, like, I'm a kindergartner. Like,

Yeah. We've sometimes missed some weeks, but, you know, I had a kid and stuff like that. But we've been doing it for, pretty regularly for a couple ever since he left you know, Twitch, I was like, well, I still wanna hang out and keep in touch. It's like the best part of when we used to work together was just shooting the shit about stuff that's cool. And because Fergon, in his own words, he told me this once was, like, I'm kind of in the first ten thousand people to try any new technology and, like, really dive deep and understand it. Because he does that, he just sees a bunch of cool shit before the mainstream does. And so my hack is, well, I'm never gonna be as smart as this guy. Never gonna understand technology. I'm not gonna learn how to code, but I can be friends with him, and he could, like, explain it to me, like, I'm a kindergartner. Like,

23:46

I'm into I'm really into this right now. Check this out. Watch watch this demo here. Try this out. Here. Open up this website. Watch this. And so we do that. And the the thing with most of my relationships including this podcast, I'm talking at least fifty plus percent of the time because I'm a talker. When I do the cool shit hours, for god, I'm like, I just sit back into my desk, and I, like, take notes as, like, oh, this is cool. And I only stop to ask clarifying questions. I'm like, wait. How does that work? So

I'm into I'm really into this right now. Check this out. Watch watch this demo here. Try this out. Here. Open up this website. Watch this. And so we do that. And the the thing with most of my relationships including this podcast, I'm talking at least fifty plus percent of the time because I'm a talker. When I do the cool shit hours, for god, I'm like, I just sit back into my desk, and I, like, take notes as, like, oh, this is cool. And I only stop to ask clarifying questions. I'm like, wait. How does that work? So

24:11

I wanna jump into some of those things. So we'll keep it open ended. I have a few that I know you're interested and I can guide us there, but let's start with open ended, which is

I wanna jump into some of those things. So we'll keep it open ended. I have a few that I know you're interested and I can guide us there, but let's start with open ended, which is

24:19

What are some things that are just cool or interesting to you? It doesn't have to be, like, something you're working on necessarily, but where's Vercon's attention right now? What stuff has caught your eye? Yeah. I would say,

What are some things that are just cool or interesting to you? It doesn't have to be, like, something you're working on necessarily, but where's Vercon's attention right now? What stuff has caught your eye? Yeah. I would say,

24:29

there's probably three major things. One is, in the hardware space, there's just There's just this trend that I feel like I can't get out of my mind, which is, you know, commodity hardware, whether it's like a raspberry kind of a simple device like that or off the shelf gears and things like that. Plus software, like machine learning equals very advanced piece of hardware. San Diego raspberry Pias, Yeah. Well, I I don't know what the application is, but it's basically like a fifty dollar. I don't I don't remember how much it costs now. It's a Yeah. Thirty dollar computer. It's like a little board. And it's important because now in a developer,

there's probably three major things. One is, in the hardware space, there's just There's just this trend that I feel like I can't get out of my mind, which is, you know, commodity hardware, whether it's like a raspberry kind of a simple device like that or off the shelf gears and things like that. Plus software, like machine learning equals very advanced piece of hardware. San Diego raspberry Pias, Yeah. Well, I I don't know what the application is, but it's basically like a fifty dollar. I don't I don't remember how much it costs now. It's a Yeah. Thirty dollar computer. It's like a little board. And it's important because now in a developer,

25:04

previously, they would have had to design their own little small computer board to go build a small, like, you know, if you wanted to build a roomba, have to go design a little computer to put in the roomba, then design the roomba. Now you can kinda go pick up this, like, computer that's just a little board, and you could put it into anything. Like,

previously, they would have had to design their own little small computer board to go build a small, like, you know, if you wanted to build a roomba, have to go design a little computer to put in the roomba, then design the roomba. Now you can kinda go pick up this, like, computer that's just a little board, and you could put it into anything. Like,

25:21

you know, it took half your company away of what you needed to do to make this happen. Who makes raspberry

you know, it took half your company away of what you needed to do to make this happen. Who makes raspberry

25:26

It's a company called Addifruit, I believe.

It's a company called Addifruit, I believe.

25:29

But they're they're like an independent company. They're like probably one of the biggest, obvious makers based companies around

But they're they're like an independent company. They're like probably one of the biggest, obvious makers based companies around

25:36

because they've, you know, I think they've sold, like, I wanna say, like, a hundred million of these devices now. And, So they're just crushing it. They're just they're they're just well. So,

because they've, you know, I think they've sold, like, I wanna say, like, a hundred million of these devices now. And, So they're just crushing it. They're just they're they're just well. So,

25:44

what's an example of something that you or somebody has built with a raspberry pie? Just so people have a tangible example. So, like, there's another device of this from Nvidia. I'm using the Nvidia Jetson. It's like a little version of a GPU, but I basically have a little GPU plugged into my TV. It has a webcam on it And, you know, we've messed around with some, like, pose estimation. So, like, you know, you can open my TV and you could basically stand there and a little ball will come. And if you hit that ball, like, it'll go blue or

what's an example of something that you or somebody has built with a raspberry pie? Just so people have a tangible example. So, like, there's another device of this from Nvidia. I'm using the Nvidia Jetson. It's like a little version of a GPU, but I basically have a little GPU plugged into my TV. It has a webcam on it And, you know, we've messed around with some, like, pose estimation. So, like, you know, you can open my TV and you could basically stand there and a little ball will come. And if you hit that ball, like, it'll go blue or

26:11

You made like a a connect, like an Xbox connect. You just made like a bootleg version of it. And then we kinda did some hand gestures where if you, you know, we basically, I think that this, this, and then this, that's kinda like the three gestures, and we can kinda read that on the other side. And so And he basically just put up like, you put up, like, a one or two or a three, basically. Right? Yeah. And and this was for me, like, you know, I like to go and mess around with it. My idea, if I wanted to do this as an idea, I would do, like,

You made like a a connect, like an Xbox connect. You just made like a bootleg version of it. And then we kinda did some hand gestures where if you, you know, we basically, I think that this, this, and then this, that's kinda like the three gestures, and we can kinda read that on the other side. And so And he basically just put up like, you put up, like, a one or two or a three, basically. Right? Yeah. And and this was for me, like, you know, I like to go and mess around with it. My idea, if I wanted to do this as an idea, I would do, like,

26:37

the best fitness product would be you buy this little device. It plugs into your TV because everybody has a TV on their wall. Now your TV is just awesome fitness game,

the best fitness product would be you buy this little device. It plugs into your TV because everybody has a TV on their wall. Now your TV is just awesome fitness game,

26:45

And you could just do, like, everything. I think I wanted to call it, like, Fit cam or, you know, something like that. But, instead of, like, the company that sold to Lululemon for, like, five hundred, six hundred,

And you could just do, like, everything. I think I wanted to call it, like, Fit cam or, you know, something like that. But, instead of, like, the company that sold to Lululemon for, like, five hundred, six hundred,

26:55

you're a huge thousand dollars. Right. If you choose a hardware for thousands of dollars that you have to mount onto your wall, well, you already have a screen on your wall called your TV. What if you could just turn it into something smart? That's

you're a huge thousand dollars. Right. If you choose a hardware for thousands of dollars that you have to mount onto your wall, well, you already have a screen on your wall called your TV. What if you could just turn it into something smart? That's

27:05

one of the, like, for thirty dollars instead of three thousand dollars. Do not have a I have, like, a mere competitor called tempo. I pay fifty bucks a month for the programming and then two grand for the sheen.

one of the, like, for thirty dollars instead of three thousand dollars. Do not have a I have, like, a mere competitor called tempo. I pay fifty bucks a month for the programming and then two grand for the sheen.

27:15

Oh, yeah. And it's basically a flat screen TV with, they don't call it a camera because they don't wanna freak people out because, like, you work out, like, I work out shirtless in my underwear, basically. So they don't call it a camera, but they call it a sensor. And it could, like, tell you if you're are your poses in good form or not good form and, it counts your pose. It counts your reps so you can compete. Pretty cool.

Oh, yeah. And it's basically a flat screen TV with, they don't call it a camera because they don't wanna freak people out because, like, you work out, like, I work out shirtless in my underwear, basically. So they don't call it a camera, but they call it a sensor. And it could, like, tell you if you're are your poses in good form or not good form and, it counts your pose. It counts your reps so you can compete. Pretty cool.

27:36

Yeah. And so that's one. I'm gonna tell you about this other, company. I invested in them, but I I I just really, really excited about it. So I'm gonna tell you guys This company called Neurocity,

Yeah. And so that's one. I'm gonna tell you about this other, company. I invested in them, but I I I just really, really excited about it. So I'm gonna tell you guys This company called Neurocity,

27:45

they make a brain computer interface. So this sounds like future,

they make a brain computer interface. So this sounds like future,

27:50

but it is now. It's basically a device, and I actually wish I had it next to me, but You just put it on your head. You can get it if you want. I wanna I wanna see if if it's if it's within the room. Yeah. Go go in the room. I'll do the other room. That's our cell. Okay. Go go for it. Being Sam will just percent. Yeah. So it'll be good for YouTube. Sean, you know how you know how on talk shows, like, morning shows, they have a guest come in and they're like, here's the latest product that you can buy for your kids this holiday season. And they're at a table and they go, this product is this is this. And they send it down. They go to the next one. That's her account is right now, basically. It's that segment where someone is just like has placed like eight cool things on the table and they're just going from thing to thing to thing just dropping bombs. And I'm like, oh, great. Cool. Got it next. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's what's going on right now. This is, FVC. This is Fercon's QVC competitor where he just picks up objects and is like, This is a fantastic holiday gift for the family.

but it is now. It's basically a device, and I actually wish I had it next to me, but You just put it on your head. You can get it if you want. I wanna I wanna see if if it's if it's within the room. Yeah. Go go in the room. I'll do the other room. That's our cell. Okay. Go go for it. Being Sam will just percent. Yeah. So it'll be good for YouTube. Sean, you know how you know how on talk shows, like, morning shows, they have a guest come in and they're like, here's the latest product that you can buy for your kids this holiday season. And they're at a table and they go, this product is this is this. And they send it down. They go to the next one. That's her account is right now, basically. It's that segment where someone is just like has placed like eight cool things on the table and they're just going from thing to thing to thing just dropping bombs. And I'm like, oh, great. Cool. Got it next. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's what's going on right now. This is, FVC. This is Fercon's QVC competitor where he just picks up objects and is like, This is a fantastic holiday gift for the family.

28:41

Yeah. And so this is for, you know, kind of like developers and whatnot still, but is what the device looks like, and, kinda give you guys a closer look, but you can see these little,

Yeah. And so this is for, you know, kind of like developers and whatnot still, but is what the device looks like, and, kinda give you guys a closer look, but you can see these little,

28:51

probe looking things. So this would basically

probe looking things. So this would basically

28:53

on a rest on your head like that. And what this does is it listens to EEG waves happening in your brain. And I think there's many different wavelengths, but know, these guys have identified

on a rest on your head like that. And what this does is it listens to EEG waves happening in your brain. And I think there's many different wavelengths, but know, these guys have identified

29:05

some set of them. And so

some set of them. And so

29:06

why why is this kind of relate to the story we're talking about? There's a little computer that's inside here that, you know, like, wouldn't have been able to happen ten years ago. And so because you could put a little computer here that has wifi on it that can take these signals in and transmit it to the internet,

why why is this kind of relate to the story we're talking about? There's a little computer that's inside here that, you know, like, wouldn't have been able to happen ten years ago. And so because you could put a little computer here that has wifi on it that can take these signals in and transmit it to the internet,

29:22

this device is viable now. And you could so so you you wear that and it helps measure your, like, what, focus or you're kind of are you in flow state? It's it's kinda like a a Fitbit in some way for your brain or what? So the device itself first takes in raw signals. So it can detect a lot of stuff.

this device is viable now. And you could so so you you wear that and it helps measure your, like, what, focus or you're kind of are you in flow state? It's it's kinda like a a Fitbit in some way for your brain or what? So the device itself first takes in raw signals. So it can detect a lot of stuff.

29:39

They've added some machine learning. Right? So the second part, they added software, and they preprogrammed

They've added some machine learning. Right? So the second part, they added software, and they preprogrammed

29:44

all these different actions. So there's some stuff like are you focused right now? Are you calm right now?

all these different actions. So there's some stuff like are you focused right now? Are you calm right now?

29:50

Kind of things like that? Are you gonna enter a sleeping state? They can detect all of these conditions, but there's other things that I'm really excited about, where it can detect,

Kind of things like that? Are you gonna enter a sleeping state? They can detect all of these conditions, but there's other things that I'm really excited about, where it can detect,

30:00

if you think about, like, pinching your left hand. Like, if you think about doing this actually, but don't do it, it could pick up that signal. Or if you think about moving your hand, your right arm, it could pick up that signal specifically. And so, you know, you could think of this as both a received state and detect things but also as an interface to kind of,

if you think about, like, pinching your left hand. Like, if you think about doing this actually, but don't do it, it could pick up that signal. Or if you think about moving your hand, your right arm, it could pick up that signal specifically. And so, you know, you could think of this as both a received state and detect things but also as an interface to kind of,

30:21

you know, without having to move a muscle, just thinking about a muscle.

you know, without having to move a muscle, just thinking about a muscle.

30:26

Change the channel without going and picking up the remote. So so this is the guy who made this is, like, seventeen, right, or eighteen?

Change the channel without going and picking up the remote. So so this is the guy who made this is, like, seventeen, right, or eighteen?

30:32

I I I don't know his age. I think he's a little bit older than that, but, yeah, you know, there's this guy Alex, I believe he has a neuroscience background, and the CEO is this guy AJ.

I I I don't know his age. I think he's a little bit older than that, but, yeah, you know, there's this guy Alex, I believe he has a neuroscience background, and the CEO is this guy AJ.

30:41

And, you know, what's funny is I bought this device as a

And, you know, what's funny is I bought this device as a

30:46

person. Right? Like, I'm just, like, I bought this device. I think I was probably in the first hundred or two hundred to buy it.

person. Right? Like, I'm just, like, I bought this device. I think I was probably in the first hundred or two hundred to buy it.

30:51

And then I was like, I sent them a message. I'm like, I love this. I'm like an investor, like, can I talk to you guys? And I don't think they responded to me. And then,

And then I was like, I sent them a message. I'm like, I love this. I'm like an investor, like, can I talk to you guys? And I don't think they responded to me. And then,

31:00

Then I joined. They had they sent a message, like, hey, do you wanna schedule, like,

Then I joined. They had they sent a message, like, hey, do you wanna schedule, like,

31:05

not customer call, like, they were doing customer discovery? And I'm like, sweet. I, like, joined this com customer discovery call, do the whole thing. But then at the end, I'm like, dude, I really love this. Like, this is me. There's a bunch of stuff about me. Not some Miranda, but, like, I'm like, really excited about this. Like, I wanna invest. Like, and then he was like, still kinda like, okay, like,

not customer call, like, they were doing customer discovery? And I'm like, sweet. I, like, joined this com customer discovery call, do the whole thing. But then at the end, I'm like, dude, I really love this. Like, this is me. There's a bunch of stuff about me. Not some Miranda, but, like, I'm like, really excited about this. Like, I wanna invest. Like, and then he was like, still kinda like, okay, like,

31:23

kind of like aggressive in the customer call to kinda get this, but then we followed up after I talked to him and ended up investing a little bit of money into them, but I love these devices. I love these things where it's like, small piece of commodity hardware plus advanced machine learning equals potentially massive new output. Right? Like, you know, and I can go into some random ideas on how I would use this, but also this is called, we we gotta make sure we'd let everyone know. It's called neurosidy their website is neurosidy dot co. Their website

kind of like aggressive in the customer call to kinda get this, but then we followed up after I talked to him and ended up investing a little bit of money into them, but I love these devices. I love these things where it's like, small piece of commodity hardware plus advanced machine learning equals potentially massive new output. Right? Like, you know, and I can go into some random ideas on how I would use this, but also this is called, we we gotta make sure we'd let everyone know. It's called neurosidy their website is neurosidy dot co. Their website

31:51

is so awesome. When I'm on this, it okay. So it's basically what this kinda looks like it basically looks like a set of headphones, but you don't put it on your ear. You put it up on your head a little bit. It costs I think nine hundred dollars and they claim that they manage your focus with music and that you minimize distractions

is so awesome. When I'm on this, it okay. So it's basically what this kinda looks like it basically looks like a set of headphones, but you don't put it on your ear. You put it up on your head a little bit. It costs I think nine hundred dollars and they claim that they manage your focus with music and that you minimize distractions

32:10

and shifts your focus and hacks your flow. This is a brilliant website. I almost would buy this just because, like,

and shifts your focus and hacks your flow. This is a brilliant website. I almost would buy this just because, like,

32:18

it looks so mysterious. Is the right way maybe?

it looks so mysterious. Is the right way maybe?

32:23

I mean, it's definitely something new and early. And, you know, when people say like, hey, we're gonna manage your flow state, you always, you know, do we all do? We kinda call bullshit on it. Right? And you're like, wait. Like, are you gonna do that? Are you gonna hack my body? Right? And so,

I mean, it's definitely something new and early. And, you know, when people say like, hey, we're gonna manage your flow state, you always, you know, do we all do? We kinda call bullshit on it. Right? And you're like, wait. Like, are you gonna do that? Are you gonna hack my body? Right? And so,

32:36

you get a lot of snake oil in the world there, but This device, it can for sure detect when I'm focused. It can detect when I'm calm at different,

you get a lot of snake oil in the world there, but This device, it can for sure detect when I'm focused. It can detect when I'm calm at different,

32:44

points. And I've programmed it to basically

points. And I've programmed it to basically

32:47

Like, when I have it connected to my computer, I can move my desktop around or, you know, I basically wanted to, like, see, can I open brave? From. Right? Like, and open an application by thinking about something, and I can do that. That's miraculous to me. Like, that's that's the thing you've, like, read about in a book somewhere. And then It was in the Jetsons maybe, but it it doesn't it didn't really exist. Can you really do that? So you could think to yourself, like, move the cursor and it works Do you think move it? Do you think open Chrome? What do you actually think of to get it to happen? Yeah. So, basically,

Like, when I have it connected to my computer, I can move my desktop around or, you know, I basically wanted to, like, see, can I open brave? From. Right? Like, and open an application by thinking about something, and I can do that. That's miraculous to me. Like, that's that's the thing you've, like, read about in a book somewhere. And then It was in the Jetsons maybe, but it it doesn't it didn't really exist. Can you really do that? So you could think to yourself, like, move the cursor and it works Do you think move it? Do you think open Chrome? What do you actually think of to get it to happen? Yeah. So, basically,

33:18

I programmed it to these kind of thinking of motor functions. So they have these pre programmed, like, forty or eighty motor functions like push, pull, move your right arm, move your left arm, move your index finger, like, and you you don't move it. You just think about that. And then you do a little training step. So, like, it just tells you think about moving your index finger and then stop thinking about it. And so it does, like, a little machine learning loop, like, twenty iterations or whatever.

I programmed it to these kind of thinking of motor functions. So they have these pre programmed, like, forty or eighty motor functions like push, pull, move your right arm, move your left arm, move your index finger, like, and you you don't move it. You just think about that. And then you do a little training step. So, like, it just tells you think about moving your index finger and then stop thinking about it. And so it does, like, a little machine learning loop, like, twenty iterations or whatever.

33:41

And then, you know, again, this is a developer device deal, but I can get it to run some arbitrary code when I think about my index. Exactly. Gotcha. Gotcha. I'm so excited give this to my dog or to, like, an eight.

And then, you know, again, this is a developer device deal, but I can get it to run some arbitrary code when I think about my index. Exactly. Gotcha. Gotcha. I'm so excited give this to my dog or to, like, an eight.

33:55

Dog, go to sleep. Boom. Well, we used to make fun of Craig Clement's cave on here, and he's like, best idea. He had three ideas at the end, and his best idea was dog VR, and we were like, that's the stupidest idea. But this is actually better.

Dog, go to sleep. Boom. Well, we used to make fun of Craig Clement's cave on here, and he's like, best idea. He had three ideas at the end, and his best idea was dog VR, and we were like, that's the stupidest idea. But this is actually better.

34:07

Because this would be, like, a way to communicate with a dog. If you could get the dog to train it, but you I I don't know. That seems a little difficult. Alright, for Kenza, that was the first one, which is

Because this would be, like, a way to communicate with a dog. If you could get the dog to train it, but you I I don't know. That seems a little difficult. Alright, for Kenza, that was the first one, which is

34:16

cheap commodity hardware that now lets a software programmer,

cheap commodity hardware that now lets a software programmer,

34:20

like, make hardware without having to have a lab and you know, physical material engineering, making motherboards, and do all that stuff. Alright. That's one one trend. What are some others? So the second trend, I mean, we're all into this. But, obviously, the defy crypto world, there's just a lot of fun activity happening there. And

like, make hardware without having to have a lab and you know, physical material engineering, making motherboards, and do all that stuff. Alright. That's one one trend. What are some others? So the second trend, I mean, we're all into this. But, obviously, the defy crypto world, there's just a lot of fun activity happening there. And

34:36

I've just, you know, it's one of those things where you just see it happening and you wanna be it and you read about it and you're building stuff. But, you know, I was working with you and then I was working at Twitch. I hadn't really built anything in this space. And so, know, just recently, I would say the last six months, I've just been writing, you know, validity code, trying to think about what kind of applications to build,

I've just, you know, it's one of those things where you just see it happening and you wanna be it and you read about it and you're building stuff. But, you know, I was working with you and then I was working at Twitch. I hadn't really built anything in this space. And so, know, just recently, I would say the last six months, I've just been writing, you know, validity code, trying to think about what kind of applications to build,

34:55

what's interesting, and

what's interesting, and

34:57

My entire view of everything is there's these massive hype cycles. Then these hype cycles go away, which is obviously what happens, right, when the kind of this massive hype happens.

My entire view of everything is there's these massive hype cycles. Then these hype cycles go away, which is obviously what happens, right, when the kind of this massive hype happens.

35:08

Then there's a stopping point there where the real building begins, and the real value would be created. And all of these kind of industries flow like that. VR crypto,

Then there's a stopping point there where the real building begins, and the real value would be created. And all of these kind of industries flow like that. VR crypto,

35:17

these kind of hardware spaces, machine learning back in the day. And so

these kind of hardware spaces, machine learning back in the day. And so

35:21

that's where we are in the decentralized and crypto world right now. And All I wanna do is build

that's where we are in the decentralized and crypto world right now. And All I wanna do is build

35:27

very valuable legitimate products that serve a real purpose and kinda go from there and, you

very valuable legitimate products that serve a real purpose and kinda go from there and, you

35:33

know, So so let's talk about crypto real quick. So you, you can apologize now for not including me in the ether crowd sale, which I know you were on top of at the time. Did you buy in the actual crowd sale or right after? I bought a little bit after the crowd sale, but it was, like, single digit dollars. It was very cheap. I'm I'm pretty sure I said it out loud at lunch every, you know. You did. And I I remember you saying that, and I was like, if I remember thinking Ethereum, dumb name,

know, So so let's talk about crypto real quick. So you, you can apologize now for not including me in the ether crowd sale, which I know you were on top of at the time. Did you buy in the actual crowd sale or right after? I bought a little bit after the crowd sale, but it was, like, single digit dollars. It was very cheap. I'm I'm pretty sure I said it out loud at lunch every, you know. You did. And I I remember you saying that, and I was like, if I remember thinking Ethereum, dumb name,

35:56

like, that's that's like a weird name. Normal people aren't gonna want to

like, that's that's like a weird name. Normal people aren't gonna want to

36:00

own Ethereum. Like, that seems weird. Literally, that was my my my dumbass thinking. And then, like,

own Ethereum. Like, that seems weird. Literally, that was my my my dumbass thinking. And then, like,

36:07

every, you know, year since then I sort of think about, why don't I just listen more to fur account? Why don't I just do the things he says to stop thinking for myself a little bit? So so that's kind of where I'm at. So you you initially bought

every, you know, year since then I sort of think about, why don't I just listen more to fur account? Why don't I just do the things he says to stop thinking for myself a little bit? So so that's kind of where I'm at. So you you initially bought

36:18

some crypto. I remember sitting next to you while you were buying, you know, random ass, you know, good good stuff, and then the shit coins also just flick around seeing what's what.

some crypto. I remember sitting next to you while you were buying, you know, random ass, you know, good good stuff, and then the shit coins also just flick around seeing what's what.

36:26

And then you sort of showed me what's going on in d five. So if people don't know, here's how I'll explain d five, and then you tell me what you would say. So

And then you sort of showed me what's going on in d five. So if people don't know, here's how I'll explain d five, and then you tell me what you would say. So

36:34

Today, there's, like, the normal financial system. There's a stock market. There's banks. You can go drive and park and walk into. When you walk into that bank, you can say, hey,

Today, there's, like, the normal financial system. There's a stock market. There's banks. You can go drive and park and walk into. When you walk into that bank, you can say, hey,

36:42

here's my money, store it safely for me, like, put it in a savings account, give me some interest maybe,

here's my money, store it safely for me, like, put it in a savings account, give me some interest maybe,

36:47

or I'd like to take a loan out, and then they say, great. Let's just decide if you are credit worthy if you can get a loan and how much you can get. So that's the traditional financial system, like, in a nutshell, the simplified version.

or I'd like to take a loan out, and then they say, great. Let's just decide if you are credit worthy if you can get a loan and how much you can get. So that's the traditional financial system, like, in a nutshell, the simplified version.

36:59

There's a parallel, like, you know, parallel universe where all those same things have been built

There's a parallel, like, you know, parallel universe where all those same things have been built

37:05

through code now. Instead of by law. Right? So we used to write down, you know, contracts

through code now. Instead of by law. Right? So we used to write down, you know, contracts

37:11

and put them in, you know, lawyers would write the contracts, and now programmers write the contracts. And so you could do all those same things. So You've showed me tools and had me got me set up where you take your Crypto Money,

and put them in, you know, lawyers would write the contracts, and now programmers write the contracts. And so you could do all those same things. So You've showed me tools and had me got me set up where you take your Crypto Money,

37:21

and you could put it in a savings account, and you can earn five percent, ten percent a year of yield. So you earn much better interest rates. You can lend it to other people, or you can take loans and get loans for things.

and you could put it in a savings account, and you can earn five percent, ten percent a year of yield. So you earn much better interest rates. You can lend it to other people, or you can take loans and get loans for things.

37:33

So explain kind of like maybe what part is most interesting to you or give an example of something you've done with crypto where you're actually not just, like, speculating in the in the defi space, but you're actually

So explain kind of like maybe what part is most interesting to you or give an example of something you've done with crypto where you're actually not just, like, speculating in the in the defi space, but you're actually

37:44

using this alternate financial system.

using this alternate financial system.

37:47

And, Sean, what's a what what's an example of what what you're just saying, what's like your fair platform for that?

And, Sean, what's a what what's an example of what what you're just saying, what's like your fair platform for that?

37:52

So Frickon showed me a couple that I I like. So, you know, so one is compound. Right? So it's compound dot finance is a website you go to. And what it says is great. You have ether. You don't wanna sell your ether, but so I did a very simple loan.

So Frickon showed me a couple that I I like. So, you know, so one is compound. Right? So it's compound dot finance is a website you go to. And what it says is great. You have ether. You don't wanna sell your ether, but so I did a very simple loan.

38:07

I went to compound finance.

I went to compound finance.

38:09

I staked or basically, like, I put up ether that I own. I said, great. Here's, let's say, a hundred ether.

I staked or basically, like, I put up ether that I own. I said, great. Here's, let's say, a hundred ether.

38:16

And then it says, great. You can you can just lend that out other people who wanna borrow ether, and I you can earn this percent annually. And, you know, if you go to if I go to Wells Fargo, I'm gonna go get point

And then it says, great. You can you can just lend that out other people who wanna borrow ether, and I you can earn this percent annually. And, you know, if you go to if I go to Wells Fargo, I'm gonna go get point

38:27

one percent,

one percent,

38:28

you know, a year on my savings account. Whereas with this, it was like, you can get seven percent a year or five percent a year. It's like, you know, actually,

you know, a year on my savings account. Whereas with this, it was like, you can get seven percent a year or five percent a year. It's like, you know, actually,

38:36

like, a decent saving, decent interest rate, or I could say, great. I put my hundred ether up, and I'd like to borrow

like, a decent saving, decent interest rate, or I could say, great. I put my hundred ether up, and I'd like to borrow

38:43

some of this other coin. So what I did just as a test of the system, I said, can I get a loan off my cryptocurrency?

some of this other coin. So what I did just as a test of the system, I said, can I get a loan off my cryptocurrency?

38:50

So I put up ether

So I put up ether

38:52

to borrow,

to borrow,

38:53

USDC, which is, a stable coin made by coin base, which basically is supposed to be one. USD is supposed to always be one dollar. So I got USDC. And then I went to Coinbase, and I sold my USDC, and I got dollars. And I said, wow. I I just put up I just

USDC, which is, a stable coin made by coin base, which basically is supposed to be one. USD is supposed to always be one dollar. So I got USDC. And then I went to Coinbase, and I sold my USDC, and I got dollars. And I said, wow. I I just put up I just

39:08

like, basically showed that I have this ether, and I locked up ether into this account for temporarily as long as I want.

like, basically showed that I have this ether, and I locked up ether into this account for temporarily as long as I want.

39:14

And got a US dollar loan that I could go use to go buy, you know, a pizza right now if I want to. And I was like, well, that's pretty sweet. I never had to talk to a banker, fill out an application,

And got a US dollar loan that I could go use to go buy, you know, a pizza right now if I want to. And I was like, well, that's pretty sweet. I never had to talk to a banker, fill out an application,

39:24

do a credit check. I didn't have to do anything, and I was able to get a loan. And now what a lot of people do is they do that. They they put you through up. They get a loan of stable coin that uses stable coin to buy more ether or to go buy some other coin and kind of gamble, like, kinda like leveraged gambling. So there's other things you can do, but I just did a really simple one. With where furcom was showing. Yeah. And, I think, lending is a big part of it. I mean, lending is dangerous in many ways. Like, you know, I I look at lending as, like, This is bad. That's my first reaction to any lending thing because people do that. Right? They basically,

do a credit check. I didn't have to do anything, and I was able to get a loan. And now what a lot of people do is they do that. They they put you through up. They get a loan of stable coin that uses stable coin to buy more ether or to go buy some other coin and kind of gamble, like, kinda like leveraged gambling. So there's other things you can do, but I just did a really simple one. With where furcom was showing. Yeah. And, I think, lending is a big part of it. I mean, lending is dangerous in many ways. Like, you know, I I look at lending as, like, This is bad. That's my first reaction to any lending thing because people do that. Right? They basically,

39:56

take it and they leverage. Now if you take it and you have purpose behind it and your long term holder of something, that makes a lot of sense. Right? Like, you can kinda do that. And and the reason I find defi exciting is you could take all the rules that you've seen get destroyed in, like, you know, the two thousand eight crash or at the dot com crash, and you could put a contract where that can't happen. And so, for example, there's this a protocol called liquidity protocol. It's a new protocol. They do zero percent interest loans on your ETH. So you can put up ETH. You take a zero percent loan And what they've done is they've created this system where they have a stability pool that will liquidate people if they go below their collateralization

take it and they leverage. Now if you take it and you have purpose behind it and your long term holder of something, that makes a lot of sense. Right? Like, you can kinda do that. And and the reason I find defi exciting is you could take all the rules that you've seen get destroyed in, like, you know, the two thousand eight crash or at the dot com crash, and you could put a contract where that can't happen. And so, for example, there's this a protocol called liquidity protocol. It's a new protocol. They do zero percent interest loans on your ETH. So you can put up ETH. You take a zero percent loan And what they've done is they've created this system where they have a stability pool that will liquidate people if they go below their collateralization

40:37

ratio. And so what happens with banks Explain that in simple terms. So Okay. So how do I how do I get, how do because they're not doing a credit check, because they're not asking for my w two income, How do they make sure that this loan eventually gets paid back? How do they do that? So you put in, let's say, one hundred Ethereum. Right? So you put in some amount that has a dollar value today, and they let you take out their token called LUSD.

ratio. And so what happens with banks Explain that in simple terms. So Okay. So how do I how do I get, how do because they're not doing a credit check, because they're not asking for my w two income, How do they make sure that this loan eventually gets paid back? How do they do that? So you put in, let's say, one hundred Ethereum. Right? So you put in some amount that has a dollar value today, and they let you take out their token called LUSD.

41:02

It's like a USD stable coin.

It's like a USD stable coin.

41:04

So now you have this stable coin. You can trade it for other stable coins or other coins or take it to coin base, you know, using whatever mechanism and kind of get it to dollars.

So now you have this stable coin. You can trade it for other stable coins or other coins or take it to coin base, you know, using whatever mechanism and kind of get it to dollars.

41:14

What you've done is you put up your Ethereum, and you have to basically maintain

What you've done is you put up your Ethereum, and you have to basically maintain

41:18

some what they call collateralization

some what they call collateralization

41:20

ratio. Like, you have to be over lending amount by at least ten percent. Otherwise, you're gonna get liquid.

ratio. Like, you have to be over lending amount by at least ten percent. Otherwise, you're gonna get liquid.

41:26

And the action of liquidating means somebody will go and take your Ethereum and buy it for a discount,

And the action of liquidating means somebody will go and take your Ethereum and buy it for a discount,

41:33

because they have to do this liquidation task. And, you know, that's the risk. You're putting this collateral up like you would in in another case. Now So it's like if, you know, I take a mortgage out, I can't make my mortgage payments because I lost my job. Well, the bank has my house as collateral. They can foreclose on my house. It's the same concept, but instead of a physical house, it's whatever collateral you put up initially to get the loan, your stake. Right. And so the the danger is put up Ethereum. The price of Ethereum is very volatile.

because they have to do this liquidation task. And, you know, that's the risk. You're putting this collateral up like you would in in another case. Now So it's like if, you know, I take a mortgage out, I can't make my mortgage payments because I lost my job. Well, the bank has my house as collateral. They can foreclose on my house. It's the same concept, but instead of a physical house, it's whatever collateral you put up initially to get the loan, your stake. Right. And so the the danger is put up Ethereum. The price of Ethereum is very volatile.

41:59

It goes down a lot. I was aggressive with my ratio, and I kinda went below this number and I got liquidated. I still have my loan amount. Right? So it's but there's obviously risks with these platforms. Like, there would be a risk of buying know, investment property and not being able to make rent on it or not be able to make mortgage. What I like about it is the underneath where,

It goes down a lot. I was aggressive with my ratio, and I kinda went below this number and I got liquidated. I still have my loan amount. Right? So it's but there's obviously risks with these platforms. Like, there would be a risk of buying know, investment property and not being able to make rent on it or not be able to make mortgage. What I like about it is the underneath where,

42:19

In two thousand eight, the bankers just went to the government and whoever else and was like, we need new rules right now. We're we're dying. And so you kinda invent new rules

In two thousand eight, the bankers just went to the government and whoever else and was like, we need new rules right now. We're we're dying. And so you kinda invent new rules

42:27

This rule is built into the protocol. If you're at below this ratio,

This rule is built into the protocol. If you're at below this ratio,

42:32

some liquidator can come in and and be the liquidator.

some liquidator can come in and and be the liquidator.

42:35

You can't you don't get a choice of, hey, is this gonna happen or not? It's encoded. And so when you build, you know, financial products with you know, directly encoded values,

You can't you don't get a choice of, hey, is this gonna happen or not? It's encoded. And so when you build, you know, financial products with you know, directly encoded values,

42:46

it makes it so that it's gonna happen whether it's a good situation for you or not whether they like, you know, how you presented yourself or not, like, you know,

it makes it so that it's gonna happen whether it's a good situation for you or not whether they like, you know, how you presented yourself or not, like, you know,

42:55

and

and

42:56

and having gone through, you know, bad times as a founder and gone through bad credit, like, I don't have good credit today still. It's like, I have a lot of money in the bank. And sometimes, I I can't go get a credit card because Like, literally my pedestal sucks from, like, whatever seven years ago or five years ago, however long ago those problems were.

and having gone through, you know, bad times as a founder and gone through bad credit, like, I don't have good credit today still. It's like, I have a lot of money in the bank. And sometimes, I I can't go get a credit card because Like, literally my pedestal sucks from, like, whatever seven years ago or five years ago, however long ago those problems were.

43:14

And If one little things happen, like, I had a small credit card that I forgot about is literally a three hundred dollar thing. I missed some, like, yearly

And If one little things happen, like, I had a small credit card that I forgot about is literally a three hundred dollar thing. I missed some, like, yearly

43:22

you know, payment fee because, you know, every year you got that fee, man, it showed up on my credit. Oh, that's a huge ding. Doesn't matter who you really are or what you can do if that financial system sucks. If you have the ability to kind of,

you know, payment fee because, you know, every year you got that fee, man, it showed up on my credit. Oh, that's a huge ding. Doesn't matter who you really are or what you can do if that financial system sucks. If you have the ability to kind of,

43:34

do some of these actions, I believe you should be able to do them, and that's the most interesting thing about DFI is access and permissionless, you know, that's the general, like, that's a good, I think, general overview because most people don't really understand what what what is even the point of this? How does this work? Let's go specific. Are you doing anything cool with DFI? Do you have any good trades going? Are you making money doing this? Are you are you actually doing anything in the d d five space right now?

do some of these actions, I believe you should be able to do them, and that's the most interesting thing about DFI is access and permissionless, you know, that's the general, like, that's a good, I think, general overview because most people don't really understand what what what is even the point of this? How does this work? Let's go specific. Are you doing anything cool with DFI? Do you have any good trades going? Are you making money doing this? Are you are you actually doing anything in the d d five space right now?

43:57

I think,

I think,

43:58

Unis WAP is probably one of the my favorite companies in this space. And I think we've talked about this a little bit, but what Unis WAP did, and I'll give you kind of the simple version of it is

Unis WAP is probably one of the my favorite companies in this space. And I think we've talked about this a little bit, but what Unis WAP did, and I'll give you kind of the simple version of it is

44:08

usually when you wanted to trade two assets, you had to create a marketplace. So let's say I have one Seancoin and I wanna sell it I need Sam to show up and buy that Sean coin. Right? And if there aren't two sides and they don't agree on the price, this trade won't

usually when you wanted to trade two assets, you had to create a marketplace. So let's say I have one Seancoin and I wanna sell it I need Sam to show up and buy that Sean coin. Right? And if there aren't two sides and they don't agree on the price, this trade won't

44:23

And what Uniswap did, and I think there were some others before it, but Uniswap has become the biggest player in this space, is they created a one-sided trading market where, you know, a buyer or seller can show up, and they're trading against what's called a liquidity pool. The investors come in and put in both sides of the trade marketplace. So, like, one Ethereum

And what Uniswap did, and I think there were some others before it, but Uniswap has become the biggest player in this space, is they created a one-sided trading market where, you know, a buyer or seller can show up, and they're trading against what's called a liquidity pool. The investors come in and put in both sides of the trade marketplace. So, like, one Ethereum

44:45

and three thousand dollars would create, let's say, a liquidity pool

and three thousand dollars would create, let's say, a liquidity pool

44:49

Then, John, you can just show up and say, I wanna sell. And you're gonna sell against this pool.

Then, John, you can just show up and say, I wanna sell. And you're gonna sell against this pool.

44:55

You don't need another side. The pool is always the other side. And they've created a simple algorithm. They call it, like, you know, AMM and automated market maker where, you know, they wanna keep the price close and depending on how much liquidity there is and much you're willing to sell is gonna slip away from that amount. And that's where the price movements will happen. And and you were in those pools. You were saying, oh, I'm making good money by being the liquidity pool.

You don't need another side. The pool is always the other side. And they've created a simple algorithm. They call it, like, you know, AMM and automated market maker where, you know, they wanna keep the price close and depending on how much liquidity there is and much you're willing to sell is gonna slip away from that amount. And that's where the price movements will happen. And and you were in those pools. You were saying, oh, I'm making good money by being the liquidity pool.

45:18

Give us a sec. What what what was the yield you could get? Let's say you put a thousand dollars in. What were you making being the liquidity provider?

Give us a sec. What what what was the yield you could get? Let's say you put a thousand dollars in. What were you making being the liquidity provider?

45:25

So, obviously, in the earlier days of Uniswap, the pool yields were very high. Like, you could see a hundred percent plus on, like, fairly good assets and and It's really important to think about you have two sizes as market. Right? So if you have if you're into Ethereum and US dollar pool,

So, obviously, in the earlier days of Uniswap, the pool yields were very high. Like, you could see a hundred percent plus on, like, fairly good assets and and It's really important to think about you have two sizes as market. Right? So if you have if you're into Ethereum and US dollar pool,

45:41

When Ethereum is going up, you're, like, losing some of it. Right? Because you're giving it away,

When Ethereum is going up, you're, like, losing some of it. Right? Because you're giving it away,

45:49

kind of to kinda, like, receive basically dollars.

kind of to kinda, like, receive basically dollars.

45:52

And, you know, so if you want to hold a lot of Ethereum long run, it didn't really make sense to be in some of these pools that are unaligned. So I always try to find things that are connected together. So, like, two stable coin pools, a USDC

And, you know, so if you want to hold a lot of Ethereum long run, it didn't really make sense to be in some of these pools that are unaligned. So I always try to find things that are connected together. So, like, two stable coin pools, a USDC

46:05

and

and

46:06

That does, you know, anywhere from, like, eight to fifteen percent. And that's been like that on the low end of the spectrum for the last year plus. I mean, I'm holding effect what, you know, we'll call dollars on both sides of the puzzle, and people need to trade between these assets, and I'm willing to be the trade partner for them, along with a lot of other people, you basically get a little bit of a fee, and that's where the liquidity pool makes money. So holding, you know, dollar on this side or dollar on this side,

That does, you know, anywhere from, like, eight to fifteen percent. And that's been like that on the low end of the spectrum for the last year plus. I mean, I'm holding effect what, you know, we'll call dollars on both sides of the puzzle, and people need to trade between these assets, and I'm willing to be the trade partner for them, along with a lot of other people, you basically get a little bit of a fee, and that's where the liquidity pool makes money. So holding, you know, dollar on this side or dollar on this side,

46:29

feels good. If there's something

feels good. If there's something

46:31

very well aligned with Ethereum. So do you believe Ethereum and Bitcoin will kind of together flow upwards

very well aligned with Ethereum. So do you believe Ethereum and Bitcoin will kind of together flow upwards

46:39

that could be a very good pool for you to kind of take what they call wrapped Bitcoin and Ethereum

that could be a very good pool for you to kind of take what they call wrapped Bitcoin and Ethereum

46:43

and be in that pool. And Uniswap made all this happen from the consumer side to make a one-sided trade, but also as an investor to come into a liquidity pool and say, hey, I'm willing to kind of put up both of these assets

and be in that pool. And Uniswap made all this happen from the consumer side to make a one-sided trade, but also as an investor to come into a liquidity pool and say, hey, I'm willing to kind of put up both of these assets

46:55

And then I wanna make some fees as people do this. Right. Okay. Alright. So that's that's good. I think with a little probably a little too complicated for the general audience at this point. So same way to I'm wearing a Harvard shirt. That's about it. Oh, sorry. My bad.

And then I wanna make some fees as people do this. Right. Okay. Alright. So that's that's good. I think with a little probably a little too complicated for the general audience at this point. So same way to I'm wearing a Harvard shirt. That's about it. Oh, sorry. My bad.

47:10

Yeah.

Yeah.

47:13

Just a t shirt. I got one more. Anyone can buy it. Anyway, but I got one more in a different space that I think Sam will love.

Just a t shirt. I got one more. Anyone can buy it. Anyway, but I got one more in a different space that I think Sam will love.

47:21

Ashawn, I told you about this book I read about Vertical farming. And, you know, basically, like, I read this book. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You guys, just were talking about crypto stuff. And then he just said, I've got something I think Sam will, like, farming.

Ashawn, I told you about this book I read about Vertical farming. And, you know, basically, like, I read this book. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You guys, just were talking about crypto stuff. And then he just said, I've got something I think Sam will, like, farming.

47:36

Yeah. That big of a redneck to you. I liked it too. We we this was one of our cool shit hours was he's like, I came in thinking he's gonna tell me about, you know, WBT,

Yeah. That big of a redneck to you. I liked it too. We we this was one of our cool shit hours was he's like, I came in thinking he's gonna tell me about, you know, WBT,

47:45

and I'm like, I gotta go look up all these acronyms. He's like, no. Vertical farming. And I was like, oh, brilliant. Tell me about it. Right? Because Vercon's got a wide range. Some days, I remember early on at at when we're working together, he's like, When Uber had just kind of was getting big, he's like, I'm thinking he's like, I got a bunch of friends who are kind of like, you know, not doing a whole lot nowadays.

and I'm like, I gotta go look up all these acronyms. He's like, no. Vertical farming. And I was like, oh, brilliant. Tell me about it. Right? Because Vercon's got a wide range. Some days, I remember early on at at when we're working together, he's like, When Uber had just kind of was getting big, he's like, I'm thinking he's like, I got a bunch of friends who are kind of like, you know, not doing a whole lot nowadays.

48:02

I'm thinking about just renting, like, five buying five cars and just having them, like, run a fleet. Like, I think I could just make x dollars doing zero work by running my own little taxi fleet on Uber. Or he was like,

I'm thinking about just renting, like, five buying five cars and just having them, like, run a fleet. Like, I think I could just make x dollars doing zero work by running my own little taxi fleet on Uber. Or he was like,

48:14

you know, there's these I forgot what it was, float spas or cryo tank company. What what was that one that you were really into? Yeah. I I, you know, the cryo tanks are something that, you know, if you have bad joints like me, it it's like, you know, night and day difference on how your body feels. And so, you know, like, I still wanna put one in. And I think in the lab that I'm spinning up over here, we'll get to that probably at some point, but Wait. What's the what's this what's said lab?

you know, there's these I forgot what it was, float spas or cryo tank company. What what was that one that you were really into? Yeah. I I, you know, the cryo tanks are something that, you know, if you have bad joints like me, it it's like, you know, night and day difference on how your body feels. And so, you know, like, I still wanna put one in. And I think in the lab that I'm spinning up over here, we'll get to that probably at some point, but Wait. What's the what's this what's said lab?

48:39

I'm I'm building a hardware and robotics lab here in San Francisco as a part of f dotting. And, you know, the idea is software you can do in a coffee shop in a living room, but you can't really build any one of these even off the shelf hardware products in your living room. And so I wanna do is take a lot of founders who are interested or future founders who are interested in building these ideas. I'm gonna have a machine shop and an electronic shop and a robotic shop in this facility.

I'm I'm building a hardware and robotics lab here in San Francisco as a part of f dotting. And, you know, the idea is software you can do in a coffee shop in a living room, but you can't really build any one of these even off the shelf hardware products in your living room. And so I wanna do is take a lot of founders who are interested or future founders who are interested in building these ideas. I'm gonna have a machine shop and an electronic shop and a robotic shop in this facility.

49:04

Gonna be in this iconic location.

Gonna be in this iconic location.

49:06

And my goal is just to get, like, a bunch of talented, hungry people in this roof and just have the great energy and build together. And so you see these companies form out of universities because they have two things. They have a shop there that you can access mostly for free, and then they have people in the shop that turns into your community, like, as a kid, I can just show up and stand next to you while you're doing something and you go, like, give me a weird look. You go, oh, you wanna you know how to use this? No. Okay. Let me show you. Like, that little bit might be the difference between you willing to try and kind of get into a field or not. And, Where are you setting this up at?

And my goal is just to get, like, a bunch of talented, hungry people in this roof and just have the great energy and build together. And so you see these companies form out of universities because they have two things. They have a shop there that you can access mostly for free, and then they have people in the shop that turns into your community, like, as a kid, I can just show up and stand next to you while you're doing something and you go, like, give me a weird look. You go, oh, you wanna you know how to use this? No. Okay. Let me show you. Like, that little bit might be the difference between you willing to try and kind of get into a field or not. And, Where are you setting this up at?

49:40

What was that? Where?

What was that? Where?

49:41

Where in the city? You said it's iconic location. Can you see where? Yes. We're looking at a place at Fort Mason in San Francisco. So it's not complete yet. But that's kind of like, for me, like the iconic locations are I can see the Golden Gate Bridge. I can be on the water. We've explored stuff on the peers in general,

Where in the city? You said it's iconic location. Can you see where? Yes. We're looking at a place at Fort Mason in San Francisco. So it's not complete yet. But that's kind of like, for me, like the iconic locations are I can see the Golden Gate Bridge. I can be on the water. We've explored stuff on the peers in general,

49:58

in Chrissy Field, Port Mason, like these locations, when I go there, I get excited.

in Chrissy Field, Port Mason, like these locations, when I go there, I get excited.

50:02

You know, like, going to monkey inferno was a fantastic office, but now outside, it wasn't that great. Like, so I'm a mission in these areas. I don't get excited when I go there. And I usually don't go there too much. How much are you willing to invest in to to sink into this thing to make it interesting?

You know, like, going to monkey inferno was a fantastic office, but now outside, it wasn't that great. Like, so I'm a mission in these areas. I don't get excited when I go there. And I usually don't go there too much. How much are you willing to invest in to to sink into this thing to make it interesting?

50:16

It's gonna be a lot. It'll probably cost about half a million bucks a year just to even, like, have the base building in place. And, you know, my guess is it'll be double that just from, you know, the people that I wanna bring in and kind of investments I wanna do and what I wanna support.

It's gonna be a lot. It'll probably cost about half a million bucks a year just to even, like, have the base building in place. And, you know, my guess is it'll be double that just from, you know, the people that I wanna bring in and kind of investments I wanna do and what I wanna support.

50:31

I wanna like, I I actually ran a plastic fabrication shop in a small machine shop a long time ago. And so I've done a lot of this. I've welded and I've worked on cars. So, like, I actually have a lot of this interest, and,

I wanna like, I I actually ran a plastic fabrication shop in a small machine shop a long time ago. And so I've done a lot of this. I've welded and I've worked on cars. So, like, I actually have a lot of this interest, and,

50:43

I'm more excited to have my own CNC and my own machines and things to work with as well. So Dude, you're so cool.

I'm more excited to have my own CNC and my own machines and things to work with as well. So Dude, you're so cool.

50:50

Yeah.

Yeah.

50:51

So, Sam, the reason I said you're gonna like this idea and company is because, I don't listen to very many podcasts, but I do I do listen to this as it is. I'll be the only one I listen to. This is not Clint. Maybe. We're taking that testimonial to the mood. I'm not even just Pam you guys. Sean, I mean, you know me. I'm not gonna tell you like it is, but I really do listen to you guys. Well, I know. I'm pretty sure you didn't listen at the beginning when I was just interviewing folks. And then now that it's ideas and it's shooting the shit, Sam's here. He's listening now. Yeah. And, so you talked about, like, hey, you know, you you just sold the company, by the way. Congratulations to you as well. And, you were talking about how, like, you wanna get your hands kinda into things and, you know, you wanna, like, do some of that. So I was like, oh, okay. If I ever get back on the bottom, I told Sam about this idea

So, Sam, the reason I said you're gonna like this idea and company is because, I don't listen to very many podcasts, but I do I do listen to this as it is. I'll be the only one I listen to. This is not Clint. Maybe. We're taking that testimonial to the mood. I'm not even just Pam you guys. Sean, I mean, you know me. I'm not gonna tell you like it is, but I really do listen to you guys. Well, I know. I'm pretty sure you didn't listen at the beginning when I was just interviewing folks. And then now that it's ideas and it's shooting the shit, Sam's here. He's listening now. Yeah. And, so you talked about, like, hey, you know, you you just sold the company, by the way. Congratulations to you as well. And, you were talking about how, like, you wanna get your hands kinda into things and, you know, you wanna, like, do some of that. So I was like, oh, okay. If I ever get back on the bottom, I told Sam about this idea

51:32

and so I'm I'm by the way, I'm sitting here taking notes. Like, I'm writing all this out. And so I read this book and this book was talking about vertical farming. I think don't know. I don't I don't remember the name of the book, but basically,

and so I'm I'm by the way, I'm sitting here taking notes. Like, I'm writing all this out. And so I read this book and this book was talking about vertical farming. I think don't know. I don't I don't remember the name of the book, but basically,

51:44

you know, the first couple of chapters, it really talks about what the major problem in the US is as, you know, as you're producing a lot of food. And the world. Right? The world went from, I think, three billion people a hundred years ago to, like, almost eight billion now. Like, it's a pretty massive difference in, like, know, how many people are on the world. You're starting to see effects, like, we see the wildfires here in California. You hear about all these things. And so what's happening is as you start farming in soil, you basically destroy the soil. And after some period of time, you get no yield out of the soil. And so About ten years ago, fifteen years ago, vertical farming got very popular as a way to put food production closer to cities. Like, New York City requires

you know, the first couple of chapters, it really talks about what the major problem in the US is as, you know, as you're producing a lot of food. And the world. Right? The world went from, I think, three billion people a hundred years ago to, like, almost eight billion now. Like, it's a pretty massive difference in, like, know, how many people are on the world. You're starting to see effects, like, we see the wildfires here in California. You hear about all these things. And so what's happening is as you start farming in soil, you basically destroy the soil. And after some period of time, you get no yield out of the soil. And so About ten years ago, fifteen years ago, vertical farming got very popular as a way to put food production closer to cities. Like, New York City requires

52:21

know, millions of acres outside of New York City to support it, wouldn't it make sense for that to be in the city? But how do you do that? Well, you could put it in these buildings, you could put it under kinda UV light, and you could drive water through it through hydroponics, and it's got really popular. A lot of people invested in it. So it's it's kind of like vertical farms. It's someone like me who's zero zero nature knowledge,

know, millions of acres outside of New York City to support it, wouldn't it make sense for that to be in the city? But how do you do that? Well, you could put it in these buildings, you could put it under kinda UV light, and you could drive water through it through hydroponics, and it's got really popular. A lot of people invested in it. So it's it's kind of like vertical farms. It's someone like me who's zero zero nature knowledge,

52:42

what what would how to make paint a mental picture, what is a vertical farm? Bro, have you never grown weed in your in your apartment? No. I don't smoke weed. I never grew weed. Don't do drugs. I don't do crimes. I don't I don't die there, but I feel like every sixteen year old has at least grown one pot plant at Red High School.

what what would how to make paint a mental picture, what is a vertical farm? Bro, have you never grown weed in your in your apartment? No. I don't smoke weed. I never grew weed. Don't do drugs. I don't do crimes. I don't I don't die there, but I feel like every sixteen year old has at least grown one pot plant at Red High School.

52:59

Yeah. So, you know, you know, you think about plants in the ground because they need kind of nutrients from soil, but really they just need some of those nutrients. And you could just put them as long as you deliver them to the roots, it's gonna pull that in. And so figured out, hey, you can grow stuff without soil. And that that's a huge that's just as a big unlock because it doesn't have to go in the ground. So if I can just use water. Right? Correct. You use water. And, there's been more advances now where it's not just water, but it's like, you know, I think they call it aeroponics, but it's just missed it. Right? So it's kind of like more yield against the root.

Yeah. So, you know, you know, you think about plants in the ground because they need kind of nutrients from soil, but really they just need some of those nutrients. And you could just put them as long as you deliver them to the roots, it's gonna pull that in. And so figured out, hey, you can grow stuff without soil. And that that's a huge that's just as a big unlock because it doesn't have to go in the ground. So if I can just use water. Right? Correct. You use water. And, there's been more advances now where it's not just water, but it's like, you know, I think they call it aeroponics, but it's just missed it. Right? So it's kind of like more yield against the root.

53:31

And, you know, you still have to power it with sunlight. So you could put it inside a warehouse, but you need sunlight. And so big UV lights was kind of the strategy. And so phase one of vertical farming was we're gonna put them in high rises. We're gonna take some floors and we're gonna turn them into a farm floor and that should support the building and These are normally the pictures that you see, what people are kind of dreaming about vertical farming. It's like a giant building, where a bunch of them are farms, and it looks cool.

And, you know, you still have to power it with sunlight. So you could put it inside a warehouse, but you need sunlight. And so big UV lights was kind of the strategy. And so phase one of vertical farming was we're gonna put them in high rises. We're gonna take some floors and we're gonna turn them into a farm floor and that should support the building and These are normally the pictures that you see, what people are kind of dreaming about vertical farming. It's like a giant building, where a bunch of them are farms, and it looks cool.

53:55

But in practice, it was, like, kind of a warehouse like a data center and, you know, that's where it ended up living. And I I think that's fine.

But in practice, it was, like, kind of a warehouse like a data center and, you know, that's where it ended up living. And I I think that's fine.

54:03

The the reason these guys got I got excited about, they're called Nebula forms.

The the reason these guys got I got excited about, they're called Nebula forms.

54:07

And what they do is they basically have,

And what they do is they basically have,

54:10

direct to consumer

direct to consumer

54:12

lettuce, microgreens, and tomatoes.

lettuce, microgreens, and tomatoes.

54:15

That's what they sell you. And so, you know, they started kind of in a different phase, like, kind of like, hey, we're building cool tech. Like, we've been in this Sean before where you're excited about computer vision and doing this thing. But, actually, along the way they realize, well,

That's what they sell you. And so, you know, they started kind of in a different phase, like, kind of like, hey, we're building cool tech. Like, we've been in this Sean before where you're excited about computer vision and doing this thing. But, actually, along the way they realize, well,

54:29

We don't really wanna license out our thing. We can't franchise this. We can't do, like, all these other ideas we had. People actually just want this. And what if we could put up farm near you, and I think they have your first farm in Idaho,

We don't really wanna license out our thing. We can't franchise this. We can't do, like, all these other ideas we had. People actually just want this. And what if we could put up farm near you, and I think they have your first farm in Idaho,

54:39

and they just have a monthly subscription to get lettuce and tomatoes, and these things show up to your door, and I mean, today, they do same day harvest to delivery because they've kinda taken the process down to this simple thing. They have this basic form. And if you could see some of the pictures that they have on their website of what their farm looks like, but it looks like a little data center. It's like Iraq of lettuce, There's a little light that will kind of rotate and, like, give it sunlight. And on the top, there's a mister that kind of, like, you know, make sure what's this called? What's this called? Nebula Farms.

and they just have a monthly subscription to get lettuce and tomatoes, and these things show up to your door, and I mean, today, they do same day harvest to delivery because they've kinda taken the process down to this simple thing. They have this basic form. And if you could see some of the pictures that they have on their website of what their farm looks like, but it looks like a little data center. It's like Iraq of lettuce, There's a little light that will kind of rotate and, like, give it sunlight. And on the top, there's a mister that kind of, like, you know, make sure what's this called? What's this called? Nebula Farms.

55:10

Nebula Farms. B u l l a m forms.

Nebula Farms. B u l l a m forms.

55:14

And

And

55:15

you know, like, if you ever get a chance to go taste some vertical farmed lettuce,

you know, like, if you ever get a chance to go taste some vertical farmed lettuce,

55:20

you will notice the taste difference. Like, it is not the same lettuce. You're like, wait, lettuce has taste. It is good. Crispy, like, it actually makes a huge difference in the quality of product, and

you will notice the taste difference. Like, it is not the same lettuce. You're like, wait, lettuce has taste. It is good. Crispy, like, it actually makes a huge difference in the quality of product, and

55:31

I believe they can make this happen, you know, same day harvest to delivery for a large part of America. So what they're they're on their website, it says, less water. So you use ninety eight percent less water. And in places like California where there's, like, droughts, water shortages, that's a big deal. No pesticides because it's an indoor sort of controlled environment. And no soils and no bugs. Right? That's why you don't need to pass this up. Right.

I believe they can make this happen, you know, same day harvest to delivery for a large part of America. So what they're they're on their website, it says, less water. So you use ninety eight percent less water. And in places like California where there's, like, droughts, water shortages, that's a big deal. No pesticides because it's an indoor sort of controlled environment. And no soils and no bugs. Right? That's why you don't need to pass this up. Right.

55:52

It says less human handling. I don't know about that. So always fresh. And, basically, the the goal would be, hey, here's an eco friendly thing, but also this taste this produce. It tastes better. And and you've actually had it. So what's the no bullshit? Like, is it If I didn't know, blind taste test, would I be able to tell the difference between these two or what? Yeah. And and we and we should do this. Like, you know, there's a couple of other brands that have gotten popular that you can up in stores. I think there's one called plenty,

It says less human handling. I don't know about that. So always fresh. And, basically, the the goal would be, hey, here's an eco friendly thing, but also this taste this produce. It tastes better. And and you've actually had it. So what's the no bullshit? Like, is it If I didn't know, blind taste test, would I be able to tell the difference between these two or what? Yeah. And and we and we should do this. Like, you know, there's a couple of other brands that have gotten popular that you can up in stores. I think there's one called plenty,

56:18

that shows up in stores.

that shows up in stores.

56:20

And I think there's a lot of people that have wanted to do this, but If the business isn't gonna work, the tech is not gonna hold it. Right? Like, that's the same thing as soft. Like, this problem exists everywhere. And so you're building some emerging tech thing, You can't keep talking about how great the tech is. And so the direct to consumer angle resonated with me because it's like, okay, I've seen grocery delivery. I've seen some of these things where you could get like fruit in a box, well, if you can produce the fruit yourself, like, you just have a machine that can produce fruit, that's the vertical form. Well, why don't you become the biggest farm in America really quickly by kind of going city to city and, you know, doing that. And you've seen Uber do that. You've seen kind of all these

And I think there's a lot of people that have wanted to do this, but If the business isn't gonna work, the tech is not gonna hold it. Right? Like, that's the same thing as soft. Like, this problem exists everywhere. And so you're building some emerging tech thing, You can't keep talking about how great the tech is. And so the direct to consumer angle resonated with me because it's like, okay, I've seen grocery delivery. I've seen some of these things where you could get like fruit in a box, well, if you can produce the fruit yourself, like, you just have a machine that can produce fruit, that's the vertical form. Well, why don't you become the biggest farm in America really quickly by kind of going city to city and, you know, doing that. And you've seen Uber do that. You've seen kind of all these

56:59

Like, you can really feel you. Then, you know, kind of build the biggest form in America now. Right?

Like, you can really feel you. Then, you know, kind of build the biggest form in America now. Right?

57:07

The way that he was describing, I'm like, alright, they're mailing plants. That's not that. I mean, yeah, that's, like, it's they're okay. It's like different lettuce. It's it's it's like a a candle. It's like those candles that have a ring in in in the bottom when you melt the candles. It's like a sticky novelty kind of type of thing. It's cool once or twice. But the way that you're describing it now, I think, for god, I think what you're really good at is something I'm not as good at, which is like

The way that he was describing, I'm like, alright, they're mailing plants. That's not that. I mean, yeah, that's, like, it's they're okay. It's like different lettuce. It's it's it's like a a candle. It's like those candles that have a ring in in in the bottom when you melt the candles. It's like a sticky novelty kind of type of thing. It's cool once or twice. But the way that you're describing it now, I think, for god, I think what you're really good at is something I'm not as good at, which is like

57:31

you're really good at breaking your frame and like changing I don't know if I'm even phrasing this correctly, but you're kind of changing the whole paradigm, which is like No. No. No. We're gonna build the largest farm in the world. And now when you say that, I think, man, so you're just gonna have to buy all this land and have this massive huge field. But you're kinda saying, like, Oh, but by the way, by farm, I mean, it's like these little small things in every convenience store in America.

you're really good at breaking your frame and like changing I don't know if I'm even phrasing this correctly, but you're kind of changing the whole paradigm, which is like No. No. No. We're gonna build the largest farm in the world. And now when you say that, I think, man, so you're just gonna have to buy all this land and have this massive huge field. But you're kinda saying, like, Oh, but by the way, by farm, I mean, it's like these little small things in every convenience store in America.

57:55

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And, that that's kind of like the the trade off here, which is, you know, a farm that's, like, maybe you know, in a fifty thousand square foot building,

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And, that that's kind of like the the trade off here, which is, you know, a farm that's, like, maybe you know, in a fifty thousand square foot building,

58:06

that might be, like,

that might be, like,

58:09

you know, thousands or tens of thousands of, like, land acres that you're replacing because vertical forming does many things, it reduces the water, but it also compacts

you know, thousands or tens of thousands of, like, land acres that you're replacing because vertical forming does many things, it reduces the water, but it also compacts

58:17

how much space you need to do the action. So instead of buying large masses of land produced this, you can buy warehouses

how much space you need to do the action. So instead of buying large masses of land produced this, you can buy warehouses

58:26

or facilities closer to the city center and serve that area. Right? And so you can be near like a city like Austin or San Francisco,

or facilities closer to the city center and serve that area. Right? And so you can be near like a city like Austin or San Francisco,

58:33

you can kinda serve that city

you can kinda serve that city

58:36

kind of efficiently with kind of a smaller, you know, kind of smaller than that. Brilliant. Yeah. That's so cool. And, dude,

kind of efficiently with kind of a smaller, you know, kind of smaller than that. Brilliant. Yeah. That's so cool. And, dude,

58:41

like, I think what you're really good at, like, when I'm around you, I feel so inspired, and I wanna bring something up in a second that's related to this. But basically, like, You are the type of I hate when we talk about San Francisco. It's just lovely place everyone needs to go. But

like, I think what you're really good at, like, when I'm around you, I feel so inspired, and I wanna bring something up in a second that's related to this. But basically, like, You are the type of I hate when we talk about San Francisco. It's just lovely place everyone needs to go. But

58:55

the type of people like you, there was a large density of that San Francisco and I am not at all naturally like you. But I felt I improved and just changed my opinion on so many things that they're hanging out with people like you. I don't know what we call that. I think Sean is a little bit more like you than than I am, but we we also have a handful of friends that are like that. And they just like you guys think about stuff in such a way where

the type of people like you, there was a large density of that San Francisco and I am not at all naturally like you. But I felt I improved and just changed my opinion on so many things that they're hanging out with people like you. I don't know what we call that. I think Sean is a little bit more like you than than I am, but we we also have a handful of friends that are like that. And they just like you guys think about stuff in such a way where

59:18

Maybe it's like when I ask them, when I ask myself to come up with an idea or think about what's the possibility of x, y, and z, I put these constraints on where, like, Well, there's no way I could pull off this because that technology for this doesn't work, or I'm not good enough to do this, or but that's it's always been done x.

Maybe it's like when I ask them, when I ask myself to come up with an idea or think about what's the possibility of x, y, and z, I put these constraints on where, like, Well, there's no way I could pull off this because that technology for this doesn't work, or I'm not good enough to do this, or but that's it's always been done x.

59:36

Whereas when you think of stuff, you're really good at being open minded and defaulting to like, well, let's actually that is kind of interesting. Let's play that out. And you don't have these constraints of like being held back that a lot of normal people like me have, I think. Do you know what I mean, Sean?

Whereas when you think of stuff, you're really good at being open minded and defaulting to like, well, let's actually that is kind of interesting. Let's play that out. And you don't have these constraints of like being held back that a lot of normal people like me have, I think. Do you know what I mean, Sean?

59:51

Yeah.

Yeah.

59:52

I I think it's simpler than that. I think for kind of, you know, everybody uses their own frame of reference, their own lens, and, he looks at things through the lens of a technologist. So I think and I I I remember sitting down next to you and being like, how did you get the way you are? And you're like, well, like, I remember when I was five. My dad bought home brought home, like, a printer, and, like, we put it together or something. Right? Like, that wasn't that the story, like, a computer or a printer when you were, like, five or six years old? Yes. In my earliest memories, it was an XT computer. It was kind of, like, not even dossier. It was just like a screen. And,

I I think it's simpler than that. I think for kind of, you know, everybody uses their own frame of reference, their own lens, and, he looks at things through the lens of a technologist. So I think and I I I remember sitting down next to you and being like, how did you get the way you are? And you're like, well, like, I remember when I was five. My dad bought home brought home, like, a printer, and, like, we put it together or something. Right? Like, that wasn't that the story, like, a computer or a printer when you were, like, five or six years old? Yes. In my earliest memories, it was an XT computer. It was kind of, like, not even dossier. It was just like a screen. And,

01:00:22

he put it together. We booted it up, and I remember he had, like, a disk that had Now you type like auto exec. I was just a kid. I knew how to type a u t o e x e c. If I press enter, I get to this, like, simulation football game. That's all I could do. Like, you pick a play and it runs it for you. You don't even you don't even actually play the game, but, like, I remember that as your earliest memories, and I mean, I got started really young. Like, I worked at a dot com when I was fifteen and just, like, my

he put it together. We booted it up, and I remember he had, like, a disk that had Now you type like auto exec. I was just a kid. I knew how to type a u t o e x e c. If I press enter, I get to this, like, simulation football game. That's all I could do. Like, you pick a play and it runs it for you. You don't even you don't even actually play the game, but, like, I remember that as your earliest memories, and I mean, I got started really young. Like, I worked at a dot com when I was fifteen and just, like, my

01:00:49

my hobbies ended up being very valuable. Like, wasn't a, you know, not a musician where, you know, I would have had it made it really big. It was like, I was into computers and and programming and doing things like that. And

my hobbies ended up being very valuable. Like, wasn't a, you know, not a musician where, you know, I would have had it made it really big. It was like, I was into computers and and programming and doing things like that. And

01:01:00

those things just happen to have become very valuable, especially in the Bay Area, and that that kind of, like, rendered itself to a lot of opportunity. Also, something that you're gonna do with this. What are you what are you calling your space again?

those things just happen to have become very valuable, especially in the Bay Area, and that that kind of, like, rendered itself to a lot of opportunity. Also, something that you're gonna do with this. What are you what are you calling your space again?

01:01:11

We call it founders inc. That's like the company name. So

We call it founders inc. That's like the company name. So

01:01:14

I I wanna, like, tell a quick story about that. So back in two thousand and and Sean, I can't see your face. So I can't see if you're I can't tell if you're on board with this story, but Yeah. Do it. You you

I I wanna, like, tell a quick story about that. So back in two thousand and and Sean, I can't see your face. So I can't see if you're I can't tell if you're on board with this story, but Yeah. Do it. You you

01:01:25

back in two thousand and thirteen. So, basically, Sean, when did you start as the Mucky inferno?

back in two thousand and thirteen. So, basically, Sean, when did you start as the Mucky inferno?

01:01:30

Like, the guy in twenty

Like, the guy in twenty

01:01:32

twelve.

twelve.

01:01:32

So, basically, twenty thirteen is kind of the actual beginning. So around that time, I was working out of it. I was I just sold something, and I I didn't make a lot of money, but like a hundred grand, let's say. And I was looking to start something else. And I found this guy named Dave, and he had

So, basically, twenty thirteen is kind of the actual beginning. So around that time, I was working out of it. I was I just sold something, and I I didn't make a lot of money, but like a hundred grand, let's say. And I was looking to start something else. And I found this guy named Dave, and he had

01:01:47

a thing called founders dojo, which was basically he rented an office in what he I don't know. Dave had a business that probably did half a million in sales and he probably profited four hundred thousand dollars. So he wasn't a rich rich guy, but he had this office that he could spend three k on a month and he let me and, like, eight other people come and work out of his office. And he,

a thing called founders dojo, which was basically he rented an office in what he I don't know. Dave had a business that probably did half a million in sales and he probably profited four hundred thousand dollars. So he wasn't a rich rich guy, but he had this office that he could spend three k on a month and he let me and, like, eight other people come and work out of his office. And he,

01:02:06

we heard about it through friends of friends. Like, hey, there's a single founder dojo. They're letting, like, people just work there. And it's a dingy office. It wasn't nice. It was maybe

we heard about it through friends of friends. Like, hey, there's a single founder dojo. They're letting, like, people just work there. And it's a dingy office. It wasn't nice. It was maybe

01:02:14

six

six

01:02:15

five hundred square feet. And then down the street was the same thing, but it was far fancier. It was called monkey inferno. It was pretty much the exact same thing, but, like, way better. It was this guy named Michael Birch who was on the podcast. If you look up the hippie who made a billion dollars, Sean did that episode, and it was a guy who started and sold the company for hundreds of millions or close to a billion dollars. And his, like, project was the same exact thing. It was nice. So, you know, they had, like, you guys probably had like hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of interior decorating and and, it was like really fancy. But it was the same thing, basically of like nerds and, like, weirdos and misfits, we all would come to these spaces. And I would hang out at Munking for it all the time, and you guys sometimes came to our thing. And we would We would dork out to the stuff that people would make fun of. Like Dave love meerkat.

five hundred square feet. And then down the street was the same thing, but it was far fancier. It was called monkey inferno. It was pretty much the exact same thing, but, like, way better. It was this guy named Michael Birch who was on the podcast. If you look up the hippie who made a billion dollars, Sean did that episode, and it was a guy who started and sold the company for hundreds of millions or close to a billion dollars. And his, like, project was the same exact thing. It was nice. So, you know, they had, like, you guys probably had like hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of interior decorating and and, it was like really fancy. But it was the same thing, basically of like nerds and, like, weirdos and misfits, we all would come to these spaces. And I would hang out at Munking for it all the time, and you guys sometimes came to our thing. And we would We would dork out to the stuff that people would make fun of. Like Dave love meerkat.

01:03:00

Meerkat was,

Meerkat was,

01:03:01

basically,

basically,

01:03:02

a live streaming app, which kinda like was the early technology and early behavior for even like a like a clubhouse or whatever.

a live streaming app, which kinda like was the early technology and early behavior for even like a like a clubhouse or whatever.

01:03:11

And he would do this thing called a marathon. He called it, and he would meerkat for twenty four hours straight. He'd be in the office meerkating for twenty four hours straight. And he would meet these other dorks and they would come and fly into our office. And then, it was just so weird. Like, we did all these weird shit. One time we created this thing called, what do we call it? Copy copy rush, we call it. And you click a button and you get coffee inside, like, twenty minutes wherever you are in San Francisco. And all these just nerdy dorky little projects,

And he would do this thing called a marathon. He called it, and he would meerkat for twenty four hours straight. He'd be in the office meerkating for twenty four hours straight. And he would meet these other dorks and they would come and fly into our office. And then, it was just so weird. Like, we did all these weird shit. One time we created this thing called, what do we call it? Copy copy rush, we call it. And you click a button and you get coffee inside, like, twenty minutes wherever you are in San Francisco. And all these just nerdy dorky little projects,

01:03:39

but it was like the best time of my life and it was the most one of the most formative. It was some of the best experiences. I ever had it as it relates to business and just, like, becoming a man and, like, tinkering with all these new things and having an open mind. And I think what you're setting up for Con is, like, the next Obviously, this is like the next iteration of that. And I'm so fortunate that I've had people like you and, and you guys had Burch, Michael Burch, and I had Dave Grosblatt. I'm so fortunate that people like you guys exist in this world because these little silly things that like are fun and like that seems stupid on the outside and the fact that there's these grown adults who are thankfully wealthy enough and willing to bet their money to do this stuff. It sounds outrageous and it sounds like a movie and I'm so happy I was part of it and it made such a huge difference.

but it was like the best time of my life and it was the most one of the most formative. It was some of the best experiences. I ever had it as it relates to business and just, like, becoming a man and, like, tinkering with all these new things and having an open mind. And I think what you're setting up for Con is, like, the next Obviously, this is like the next iteration of that. And I'm so fortunate that I've had people like you and, and you guys had Burch, Michael Burch, and I had Dave Grosblatt. I'm so fortunate that people like you guys exist in this world because these little silly things that like are fun and like that seems stupid on the outside and the fact that there's these grown adults who are thankfully wealthy enough and willing to bet their money to do this stuff. It sounds outrageous and it sounds like a movie and I'm so happy I was part of it and it made such a huge difference.

01:04:21

It's like the fact that these exist, it's it's a movie. A hundred percent. And,

It's like the fact that these exist, it's it's a movie. A hundred percent. And,

01:04:25

those places you talk about, so I know David grows plot as well. And, I used to go to another place, growing up hacker dojo. It was mountain view. And, you know,

those places you talk about, so I know David grows plot as well. And, I used to go to another place, growing up hacker dojo. It was mountain view. And, you know,

01:04:35

even growing up in Silicon Valley, you didn't immediately have, like, a work. Like, I don't know, like, a bunch of VCs just from growing up here. That's not actually not how it worked. My block didn't have VCs on it. It was just normal people. And,

even growing up in Silicon Valley, you didn't immediately have, like, a work. Like, I don't know, like, a bunch of VCs just from growing up here. That's not actually not how it worked. My block didn't have VCs on it. It was just normal people. And,

01:04:47

you know, you really didn't find people like yourself. And so the internet changed a lot. Right? Like, it allowed people to connect with each other and find each other, but know, the in person interactions,

you know, you really didn't find people like yourself. And so the internet changed a lot. Right? Like, it allowed people to connect with each other and find each other, but know, the in person interactions,

01:04:56

they just operate differently. And it's a lot more ad hoc. Like, I remember you being at the monkey in Ferno, and a lot of other, you know, people that we would have work out of there, it was cool because you could just walk by,

they just operate differently. And it's a lot more ad hoc. Like, I remember you being at the monkey in Ferno, and a lot of other, you know, people that we would have work out of there, it was cool because you could just walk by,

01:05:06

break up a random conversation, talk about something,

break up a random conversation, talk about something,

01:05:09

and maybe it resulted in nothing. And sometimes it would actually stick with you, and it would be really important. And so,

and maybe it resulted in nothing. And sometimes it would actually stick with you, and it would be really important. And so,

01:05:16

I app love it and felt the same way early on when we were kinda doing these, like, you know, random ideas, it was like, We're just a bunch of misfits together here that are just gonna go on this journey, and that energy is just hard to replace. And it was really fun. And every time it's been there, it's been really instrumental for me and like, learning a lot, like, conversations

I app love it and felt the same way early on when we were kinda doing these, like, you know, random ideas, it was like, We're just a bunch of misfits together here that are just gonna go on this journey, and that energy is just hard to replace. And it was really fun. And every time it's been there, it's been really instrumental for me and like, learning a lot, like, conversations

01:05:33

during the lunch table at monkey and for no shaped a lot about how people think, what are, you know, what are ways to conduct yourself, just things even outside of tech. Right? Like, you interact with a lot of different people and you could bring good energy to it. And, I think it's really critical. And so I've been on this mission

during the lunch table at monkey and for no shaped a lot about how people think, what are, you know, what are ways to conduct yourself, just things even outside of tech. Right? Like, you interact with a lot of different people and you could bring good energy to it. And, I think it's really critical. And so I've been on this mission

01:05:49

lightly before COVID to kind of, like, build this facility, but then kinda COVID happened. And, you know, obviously, like, it's good in terms of, like, new buildings, new opportunities, cheaper rent here in the city. Great.

lightly before COVID to kind of, like, build this facility, but then kinda COVID happened. And, you know, obviously, like, it's good in terms of, like, new buildings, new opportunities, cheaper rent here in the city. Great.

01:06:00

But I think this thing is kind of necessary for a lot of people we're in this builder phase, you know, like, they might not be a founder yet. They might not go raise a bunch of money. They just wanna build some stuff and hack on it and wanted to kinda take a bet to build that facility. And on this podcast, we talk a ton about, like, buying businesses, and we almost get to the point where it's almost sounds like we're a bunch of, like,

But I think this thing is kind of necessary for a lot of people we're in this builder phase, you know, like, they might not be a founder yet. They might not go raise a bunch of money. They just wanna build some stuff and hack on it and wanted to kinda take a bet to build that facility. And on this podcast, we talk a ton about, like, buying businesses, and we almost get to the point where it's almost sounds like we're a bunch of, like,

01:06:20

banker

banker

01:06:21

PE types where it's like, oh, that's an interesting opportunity. But that coolest shit that I've ever done and the most fun I've ever done is just dorking out with like people that were like me and just like, oh, this is kind of funny. Like, this is silly. Like, we could do the and it all starts like, this is so stupid. It's so fun. And some kind of like turns into really cool amazing stuff. And and and I think that that's fun to remember that that should

PE types where it's like, oh, that's an interesting opportunity. But that coolest shit that I've ever done and the most fun I've ever done is just dorking out with like people that were like me and just like, oh, this is kind of funny. Like, this is silly. Like, we could do the and it all starts like, this is so stupid. It's so fun. And some kind of like turns into really cool amazing stuff. And and and I think that that's fun to remember that that should

01:06:43

that should be how a lot of stuff starts or,

that should be how a lot of stuff starts or,

01:06:46

maybe like

maybe like

01:06:48

maybe it's not should be, but it can be that way, which is, I think, better. Yeah. Organic organic. Organic is awesome. Right? It just means that we just kinda sat around. We brainstorm some ideas. Some of our experience we tried some things. You need to be able to try things. I think that's, like, really important. And if I could reduce,

maybe it's not should be, but it can be that way, which is, I think, better. Yeah. Organic organic. Organic is awesome. Right? It just means that we just kinda sat around. We brainstorm some ideas. Some of our experience we tried some things. You need to be able to try things. I think that's, like, really important. And if I could reduce,

01:07:03

you know, for me growing up, I didn't have a lot of, like, people that I can lean on. That's, like, had done this already or they were doing businesses. It was just like, kind of fail as you go,

you know, for me growing up, I didn't have a lot of, like, people that I can lean on. That's, like, had done this already or they were doing businesses. It was just like, kind of fail as you go,

01:07:13

take a bunch of scars and, you know, finding, like, people like Adam and Sean, like, was critical for me in the sense that, like, I had people that I could talk to about

take a bunch of scars and, you know, finding, like, people like Adam and Sean, like, was critical for me in the sense that, like, I had people that I could talk to about

01:07:21

business things that, like, maybe other people I couldn't interact with and I just wanna kind of if I can take that, for, let's say, like Sean said earlier,

business things that, like, maybe other people I couldn't interact with and I just wanna kind of if I can take that, for, let's say, like Sean said earlier,

01:07:29

you know, myself fifteen years ago, I could give myself some of that. Like, that's what I that's what I feel like I'm kinda building over here. Yeah. There's a what's that cheesy phrase? That's

you know, myself fifteen years ago, I could give myself some of that. Like, that's what I that's what I feel like I'm kinda building over here. Yeah. There's a what's that cheesy phrase? That's

01:07:38

great, but cheesy. It's like be the person you needed as, you know, when you were a kid or something like that,

great, but cheesy. It's like be the person you needed as, you know, when you were a kid or something like that,

01:07:45

is one of those things that, like, if everybody actually did it, you know, the world would sort of be a good great place.

is one of those things that, like, if everybody actually did it, you know, the world would sort of be a good great place.

01:07:50

And and I think that's what in many ways you're doing. I don't know what I needed. I I sort of, like, had a different journey where I was, like, it's kind of on autopilot for, like, twenty years.

And and I think that's what in many ways you're doing. I don't know what I needed. I I sort of, like, had a different journey where I was, like, it's kind of on autopilot for, like, twenty years.

01:08:00

Didn't have an entrepreneurial bone in my body.

Didn't have an entrepreneurial bone in my body.

01:08:03

Didn't think about stuff. I just kind of was going with the flow. It was pretty, like,

Didn't think about stuff. I just kind of was going with the flow. It was pretty, like,

01:08:07

You know, I was trying to trying to do good at school, but I, you know, it was okay. Wasn't wasn't the best. Wasn't particularly a hard worker. Wasn't doing anything interesting.

You know, I was trying to trying to do good at school, but I, you know, it was okay. Wasn't wasn't the best. Wasn't particularly a hard worker. Wasn't doing anything interesting.

01:08:15

Wasn't great, you know, socially. That I just felt like I kinda woke up when I was twenty one years old. It started,

Wasn't great, you know, socially. That I just felt like I kinda woke up when I was twenty one years old. It started,

01:08:21

you know, when I my first idea for a company, that's when I started to be more like me. And so I think everybody, you know, okay, why do I do this podcast?

you know, when I my first idea for a company, that's when I started to be more like me. And so I think everybody, you know, okay, why do I do this podcast?

01:08:29

Well, I'm not gonna say I do it to give back. Like, that's not why I do it because it's fun, but the side effect of doing it is that

Well, I'm not gonna say I do it to give back. Like, that's not why I do it because it's fun, but the side effect of doing it is that

01:08:36

the person who's me when they're eighteen, seventeen, twenty years old or thirty. It doesn't even matter how old. If you're kind of in that autopilot phase where you don't feel like you found your thing or you don't feel like, you know, you're excited every day to wake up. And all of a sudden you hear a couple guys on a podcast shooting the shit. They sound really excited about life. They got great energy. They get ideas for days, and you start to look at yourself, like, Why don't I see ideas all the time? How are these guys able to come on the podcast two two times we can do it? And so what does that do? It proliferates

the person who's me when they're eighteen, seventeen, twenty years old or thirty. It doesn't even matter how old. If you're kind of in that autopilot phase where you don't feel like you found your thing or you don't feel like, you know, you're excited every day to wake up. And all of a sudden you hear a couple guys on a podcast shooting the shit. They sound really excited about life. They got great energy. They get ideas for days, and you start to look at yourself, like, Why don't I see ideas all the time? How are these guys able to come on the podcast two two times we can do it? And so what does that do? It proliferates

01:09:02

more people

more people

01:09:03

that are like me. That's, you know, what I want. You know, I I am the way I wanna be so that hopefully I can, like, either, incept a bunch of other people in their brain that maybe they can

that are like me. That's, you know, what I want. You know, I I am the way I wanna be so that hopefully I can, like, either, incept a bunch of other people in their brain that maybe they can

01:09:13

pick that up, right, podcast a vehicle to do that. You're doing the same thing. You know, when you were growing up, you were, you know, messing around with hardware and cars and business when you were fifteen, sixteen years old, and you're messing around with computers. And and so and a bunch of people helped you out. Right? Your dad bringing home the computer or I think you told me about a guy kind of in your neighborhood who had, like, the the car stuff that you could use to go work on cars. If you didn't have that hardware,

pick that up, right, podcast a vehicle to do that. You're doing the same thing. You know, when you were growing up, you were, you know, messing around with hardware and cars and business when you were fifteen, sixteen years old, and you're messing around with computers. And and so and a bunch of people helped you out. Right? Your dad bringing home the computer or I think you told me about a guy kind of in your neighborhood who had, like, the the car stuff that you could use to go work on cars. If you didn't have that hardware,

01:09:38

and you picked up those hobbies and you just followed those hobbies, you doubled down, tripled down, even though that wasn't the common path. Right? The common path was finish college, get a job, like, get married, have kids, whatever. Right? Like, everybody has this, like, path that's kind of like your parents and society sort of

and you picked up those hobbies and you just followed those hobbies, you doubled down, tripled down, even though that wasn't the common path. Right? The common path was finish college, get a job, like, get married, have kids, whatever. Right? Like, everybody has this, like, path that's kind of like your parents and society sort of

01:09:54

draws at you. And you went off that path. I think when you went off that path, you probably didn't have as much guidance as, like, you're able to provide to that next wave where they should go on to do bigger and better things because, you know, you're able to knock down a few of those walls for them or with them.

draws at you. And you went off that path. I think when you went off that path, you probably didn't have as much guidance as, like, you're able to provide to that next wave where they should go on to do bigger and better things because, you know, you're able to knock down a few of those walls for them or with them.

01:10:10

Yeah. And, I I like how you phrased it. The cheesy phrase is obviously interesting, but, like, I don't think giving back is the right. That's not the right way to frame this because this is it's like it's not charity. Right? Like, obviously, like, I'm building a business. I do believe in the long run,

Yeah. And, I I like how you phrased it. The cheesy phrase is obviously interesting, but, like, I don't think giving back is the right. That's not the right way to frame this because this is it's like it's not charity. Right? Like, obviously, like, I'm building a business. I do believe in the long run,

01:10:25

I wanna make money with this business and then I'm gonna invest in are gonna, in the long run, pay off for me monetarily as well. But as a side effect,

I wanna make money with this business and then I'm gonna invest in are gonna, in the long run, pay off for me monetarily as well. But as a side effect,

01:10:34

I I do believe that, you know, kinda like your podcast, like, gonna inspire a lot of people. I would love to inspire the next, like, thousand builders or founders, kind of, however you wanna phrase it. And

I I do believe that, you know, kinda like your podcast, like, gonna inspire a lot of people. I would love to inspire the next, like, thousand builders or founders, kind of, however you wanna phrase it. And

01:10:44

I think That side effect is fantastic. I don't think that business has to be, you know, detached from, you know, some side effect. Like, I I think

I think That side effect is fantastic. I don't think that business has to be, you know, detached from, you know, some side effect. Like, I I think

01:10:52

it's If I wanted to make it a charity, I'd make it a nonprofit. Right? Like, that would be the way to go, and that that would be kind of the way to do it. But I think there's a lot of benefit. And a lot of people will benefit, hopefully, from it, and ideally not just because of me. Like, hopefully, it's more like, I don't know what the discord has become. It's like founders helping each other. Like, that's the best version of this. And if I could be maybe the person that can first create the circle, then off them. Like, that would be the hope. What what's the biggest, kinda, like, common mistake or trap you're seeing when you have those kind of young entrepreneurs in the Discord working on their projects.

it's If I wanted to make it a charity, I'd make it a nonprofit. Right? Like, that would be the way to go, and that that would be kind of the way to do it. But I think there's a lot of benefit. And a lot of people will benefit, hopefully, from it, and ideally not just because of me. Like, hopefully, it's more like, I don't know what the discord has become. It's like founders helping each other. Like, that's the best version of this. And if I could be maybe the person that can first create the circle, then off them. Like, that would be the hope. What what's the biggest, kinda, like, common mistake or trap you're seeing when you have those kind of young entrepreneurs in the Discord working on their projects.

01:11:24

What is the advice you keep on given over and over again that, like, you feel like is the common the common mistakes, the common traps that they're falling into? I think it's always, you know, what are you focused on? So, like, if you're a builder, you're probably spending a lot of your energy on buildings. And if you're, you know, really most of these companies will kinda die in the market, not

What is the advice you keep on given over and over again that, like, you feel like is the common the common mistakes, the common traps that they're falling into? I think it's always, you know, what are you focused on? So, like, if you're a builder, you're probably spending a lot of your energy on buildings. And if you're, you know, really most of these companies will kinda die in the market, not

01:11:44

attack. And there's some challenges sometimes, but even as a technology person, I would not spend too much time on technology. And, and Sean, you you experienced this firsthand, like, many times do I, like, we'll just hack it in and all the engineers are like cringe. Right? It's like, well, we have to. Like, we need to go win this market or figure out if this is real or not. If it's not real, need to move on from this very fast because we're just wasting time, money, energy, and probably your company if we go down the wrong path here. And so is pretty much always focused on, you know, for me, the a lot of the advice is, like, go be more aggressive on growth, go figure out your market, go understand your customers,

attack. And there's some challenges sometimes, but even as a technology person, I would not spend too much time on technology. And, and Sean, you you experienced this firsthand, like, many times do I, like, we'll just hack it in and all the engineers are like cringe. Right? It's like, well, we have to. Like, we need to go win this market or figure out if this is real or not. If it's not real, need to move on from this very fast because we're just wasting time, money, energy, and probably your company if we go down the wrong path here. And so is pretty much always focused on, you know, for me, the a lot of the advice is, like, go be more aggressive on growth, go figure out your market, go understand your customers,

01:12:20

use technology as a weapon for that, not it's not the purpose that you're building. Like, you're gonna stay here and build this technology. Somebody else is gonna go take your market probably with the same technology, by the way. Sam, I don't know if you have a hard stop, but there's one other one that I think is is interesting that, for kind of could talk about I don't know if you can talk about it, but PAC protocol or Yeah. I don't know if you can can you talk about that? Or is either that? Or I think, you know, the way you're setting up the Dow or any Dows that you're a part of, I think, are things. So pick one of those two and then talk about that. Yeah. So, you know, Dow

use technology as a weapon for that, not it's not the purpose that you're building. Like, you're gonna stay here and build this technology. Somebody else is gonna go take your market probably with the same technology, by the way. Sam, I don't know if you have a hard stop, but there's one other one that I think is is interesting that, for kind of could talk about I don't know if you can talk about it, but PAC protocol or Yeah. I don't know if you can can you talk about that? Or is either that? Or I think, you know, the way you're setting up the Dow or any Dows that you're a part of, I think, are things. So pick one of those two and then talk about that. Yeah. So, you know, Dow

01:12:51

decentralized, autonomous organization. I'll call it a decentralized or because it's a little bit simpler to understand is really just kind of like this thing happening in the crypto world where,

decentralized, autonomous organization. I'll call it a decentralized or because it's a little bit simpler to understand is really just kind of like this thing happening in the crypto world where,

01:13:01

people are forming

people are forming

01:13:02

effectively these partnerships together,

effectively these partnerships together,

01:13:04

they're doing it on, you know, on chain, meaning as, like, an actual organization,

they're doing it on, you know, on chain, meaning as, like, an actual organization,

01:13:10

that kind of owns this code and things like that. And so

that kind of owns this code and things like that. And so

01:13:13

Okay. Let let me let me simplify for a second. So, Sam, when you started the hustle, you probably made a Delaware C Corp. Right? So you go to Delaware. That's the rule of law. That's kind of where you're gonna go write down all your articles of incorporation,

Okay. Let let me let me simplify for a second. So, Sam, when you started the hustle, you probably made a Delaware C Corp. Right? So you go to Delaware. That's the rule of law. That's kind of where you're gonna go write down all your articles of incorporation,

01:13:25

and you chose C Corp as the, like, structure of your organization is and that lets you do certain things. You can take investment. You can do this. You can do that. And so you could do an LLC. You could do a s corp. You could do it in Nevada. You could do it in California. So those are the current ways that you start when you have a project that where you need a bunch of people to work together and be financially

and you chose C Corp as the, like, structure of your organization is and that lets you do certain things. You can take investment. You can do this. You can do that. And so you could do an LLC. You could do a s corp. You could do it in Nevada. You could do it in California. So those are the current ways that you start when you have a project that where you need a bunch of people to work together and be financially

01:13:44

incentivized as a group, you you traditionally, you would use,

incentivized as a group, you you traditionally, you would use,

01:13:48

you know, a Delaware C Corp or l LLC or something like that. What he's providing what he's talking about is an alternative that's been made. And I I think for him, the trick here is

you know, a Delaware C Corp or l LLC or something like that. What he's providing what he's talking about is an alternative that's been made. And I I think for him, the trick here is

01:13:57

what do they let you do that's different than just making it? Why why don't I just go to a LLC or a C corp, in Delaware? Well, it it lets you first be,

what do they let you do that's different than just making it? Why why don't I just go to a LLC or a C corp, in Delaware? Well, it it lets you first be,

01:14:07

you know,

you know,

01:14:08

it lets you kind of detach yourself from the legal entity

it lets you kind of detach yourself from the legal entity

01:14:13

and how you were kind of like having your stake of ownership and and kind of voting and governance of the company. So, like, you know, we talked a lot, Sean, before, of, like, man, it kinda sucks. Companies are like, top heavy, and everybody's putting a lot of, you know, energy and effort. And, yeah, you might need a person that's responsible for making these choices, but wouldn't it be cool if? And, you know, a bunch of people on the internet basically took that, wouldn't it be cool if we made a company that could be owned by everybody equally And you could do things like voting or managing the treasury or issuing new, you know, tokens or shares to people. And you could incentivize them however you wanted. So, like, If you bring on some people to help you market, like, some, let's say, big celebrity, you can issue some governance to them. Like, they could be a part of this. You can align incentive between investors,

and how you were kind of like having your stake of ownership and and kind of voting and governance of the company. So, like, you know, we talked a lot, Sean, before, of, like, man, it kinda sucks. Companies are like, top heavy, and everybody's putting a lot of, you know, energy and effort. And, yeah, you might need a person that's responsible for making these choices, but wouldn't it be cool if? And, you know, a bunch of people on the internet basically took that, wouldn't it be cool if we made a company that could be owned by everybody equally And you could do things like voting or managing the treasury or issuing new, you know, tokens or shares to people. And you could incentivize them however you wanted. So, like, If you bring on some people to help you market, like, some, let's say, big celebrity, you can issue some governance to them. Like, they could be a part of this. You can align incentive between investors,

01:14:58

founders,

founders,

01:14:59

community, the market, whoever you want. And so here's here's an example of one, right, that you've you showed me So there's this thing called the Lao. Have you ever heard of this, Sam? So the Lao Lao.

community, the market, whoever you want. And so here's here's an example of one, right, that you've you showed me So there's this thing called the Lao. Have you ever heard of this, Sam? So the Lao Lao.

01:15:09

What it is is it's a venture fund, but instead of,

What it is is it's a venture fund, but instead of,

01:15:13

Like, if you go to Sequoia, Sequoia's got, you know, let's say the GPS, the general partners, and it's got the managing director maybe, and it's got then the associates and the analysts. So it's like traditional companies like a pyramid, and at the top is the people in charge. And what the Dow is is basically

Like, if you go to Sequoia, Sequoia's got, you know, let's say the GPS, the general partners, and it's got the managing director maybe, and it's got then the associates and the analysts. So it's like traditional companies like a pyramid, and at the top is the people in charge. And what the Dow is is basically

01:15:29

here's a fund.

here's a fund.

01:15:30

You put your money in, For however much money you put in, you get certain number of tokens.

You put your money in, For however much money you put in, you get certain number of tokens.

01:15:35

Tokens are like shares.

Tokens are like shares.

01:15:37

And,

And,

01:15:38

and then there's nobody specifically in charge.

and then there's nobody specifically in charge.

01:15:41

And the fund basically can receive proposals. So there's just they have a website. You can pitch them. The pitch goes in. Everybody gets it in their inbox. Everybody votes. Yes or no. Based on how many tokens they hold, that's their vote, that's their weight. And then if the majority of the Dow has voted, yes, it gets the the treasury, which is the bank account, for the for the for the lao. We'll pay out that project. Here's your investment.

And the fund basically can receive proposals. So there's just they have a website. You can pitch them. The pitch goes in. Everybody gets it in their inbox. Everybody votes. Yes or no. Based on how many tokens they hold, that's their vote, that's their weight. And then if the majority of the Dow has voted, yes, it gets the the treasury, which is the bank account, for the for the for the lao. We'll pay out that project. Here's your investment.

01:16:03

And, and then at any time I, if I don't like the lao, I can just sell my stake sell it to anybody else. They could take my spot and allow.

And, and then at any time I, if I don't like the lao, I can just sell my stake sell it to anybody else. They could take my spot and allow.

01:16:11

And, you know, now they own they have that chair. So it's completely liquid at all times whether there's Maybe there's been great projects in there, and and now this thing's looks really valuable. These tokens look more valuable than the initial money that was put in. Well, can sell out. I don't have to wait ten years for those projects to pan out. I can sell out today at two at double my money. Or,

And, you know, now they own they have that chair. So it's completely liquid at all times whether there's Maybe there's been great projects in there, and and now this thing's looks really valuable. These tokens look more valuable than the initial money that was put in. Well, can sell out. I don't have to wait ten years for those projects to pan out. I can sell out today at two at double my money. Or,

01:16:30

you know, I can say, I wanna I wanna have more control I'm gonna buy out more tokens so that I have a greater say in this community because I'm gonna spend a bunch of time, and I really wanna make sure my vote my vote matters. And, basically, it ties your vote to your, sort of, your merits, how much value you put in, in this case, how much money you put into the lyle. So they did it as an investment vehicle,

you know, I can say, I wanna I wanna have more control I'm gonna buy out more tokens so that I have a greater say in this community because I'm gonna spend a bunch of time, and I really wanna make sure my vote my vote matters. And, basically, it ties your vote to your, sort of, your merits, how much value you put in, in this case, how much money you put into the lyle. So they did it as an investment vehicle,

01:16:51

other people did it as a art collecting vehicle. Put money in by art, art is owned by the group, and you could sell them in in whatever. So there's these headless companies. There's no CEO in a suit at the top that is telling everybody what to do and deciding who gets hired and fired. It's just a bunch of shareholders together, and you vote based on your shares. It's like a, you know, more like America, like a democracy, I guess. And then Yeah. There's other variations of that too that I can't even wrap my head around. Those are the simple ones. I've Understood. There's others that I don't even understand yet. Yeah. And it it's it's very complicated, very, very complex, but this simple version how you phrase it, it's kind of like a democracy times a company,

other people did it as a art collecting vehicle. Put money in by art, art is owned by the group, and you could sell them in in whatever. So there's these headless companies. There's no CEO in a suit at the top that is telling everybody what to do and deciding who gets hired and fired. It's just a bunch of shareholders together, and you vote based on your shares. It's like a, you know, more like America, like a democracy, I guess. And then Yeah. There's other variations of that too that I can't even wrap my head around. Those are the simple ones. I've Understood. There's others that I don't even understand yet. Yeah. And it it's it's very complicated, very, very complex, but this simple version how you phrase it, it's kind of like a democracy times a company,

01:17:28

you know, mixed in one. And maybe company is even the wrong phrasing there, but you know, I'm very fascinated with this. It's a very different pattern. I don't know if it's better or worse than, you know, what we've seen traditionally, but it's definitely different. Right? And, I've been wanting to kind of, like,

you know, mixed in one. And maybe company is even the wrong phrasing there, but you know, I'm very fascinated with this. It's a very different pattern. I don't know if it's better or worse than, you know, what we've seen traditionally, but it's definitely different. Right? And, I've been wanting to kind of, like,

01:17:43

you know, be a part of one, create one. And so I joined a couple, but I'm not, like, you know, some meaningful stakeholder in it. But then, you know, with a lot of the work that's been going on in f NFTs, a lot of popularity,

you know, be a part of one, create one. And so I joined a couple, but I'm not, like, you know, some meaningful stakeholder in it. But then, you know, with a lot of the work that's been going on in f NFTs, a lot of popularity,

01:17:53

the top shot is just, like, taken over, like, my friend's group and, very popular, and I know you're super into like Bitcoin and some of these other,

the top shot is just, like, taken over, like, my friend's group and, very popular, and I know you're super into like Bitcoin and some of these other,

01:18:00

platforms. And so I I've been wanting to kind of wrap my head around NFTs

platforms. And so I I've been wanting to kind of wrap my head around NFTs

01:18:05

And I started talking to a lot of developers and people that are interested about some of these ideas that I had. And I found like a group of five, six people that I'm like, oh, we're we're all kind of really into this. Let's make a doubt. All, like, kinda put in the first amount of money, and now a couple of my buddies are also putting in some money for getting some stake in this. And the idea is we're just gonna be kind of a group of people that are gonna build fun projects in the NFT space. And

And I started talking to a lot of developers and people that are interested about some of these ideas that I had. And I found like a group of five, six people that I'm like, oh, we're we're all kind of really into this. Let's make a doubt. All, like, kinda put in the first amount of money, and now a couple of my buddies are also putting in some money for getting some stake in this. And the idea is we're just gonna be kind of a group of people that are gonna build fun projects in the NFT space. And

01:18:30

herbal is there's a lot of hype right now. We're in that hype cycle. Hype cycle's gonna go away. Right? It's the same pattern that we talked about before, Well, what are the valuable things that NFPs can do? Let's go build some of these. And so, you know, we have two ideas that we're working on right now as a group. One of them is, like, Shopify for NFTs. Like, you come in, you click two buttons, you, like, you can create your own. And, you know, I'll ask you this, Sean. Like, you heard a lot about NFTs. You talk a lot about them. Have you minted your own yet? I have not. Why not?

herbal is there's a lot of hype right now. We're in that hype cycle. Hype cycle's gonna go away. Right? It's the same pattern that we talked about before, Well, what are the valuable things that NFPs can do? Let's go build some of these. And so, you know, we have two ideas that we're working on right now as a group. One of them is, like, Shopify for NFTs. Like, you come in, you click two buttons, you, like, you can create your own. And, you know, I'll ask you this, Sean. Like, you heard a lot about NFTs. You talk a lot about them. Have you minted your own yet? I have not. Why not?

01:19:01

I don't know what the hell out of my NFT would be. So, like, for example, we have a friend, Jack butcher, who has minted many NFTs now himself, and he's a great designer. So he makes, like, a cool visual design. It's, like, bad ass art. And he's like, oh, cool. Instead of just posting this for free on Twitter for likes, I'll post this on foundation, and I'll sell it. And he sold some of these for sixty, seventy thousand dollars each.

I don't know what the hell out of my NFT would be. So, like, for example, we have a friend, Jack butcher, who has minted many NFTs now himself, and he's a great designer. So he makes, like, a cool visual design. It's, like, bad ass art. And he's like, oh, cool. Instead of just posting this for free on Twitter for likes, I'll post this on foundation, and I'll sell it. And he sold some of these for sixty, seventy thousand dollars each.

01:19:23

And so he's made, you know, a lot of money this year just basically selling his own kind of like his philosophies. He just makes it to a kind of a a digital

And so he's made, you know, a lot of money this year just basically selling his own kind of like his philosophies. He just makes it to a kind of a a digital

01:19:30

poster and he sells that digital poster to his fans. And so for me, I'm like, oh, that's cool.

poster and he sells that digital poster to his fans. And so for me, I'm like, oh, that's cool.

01:19:37

If I made it in and if he I don't know. I don't really have that artistic skill. I don't even know what the NFT would be. That's kind of my thought. And then but you haven't even just tried one. Right? Like, when when you first saw Shopify, you went and created a store. Right? Like, you didn't you didn't have to start a company, you know, or sell something, but You went into it. Yeah. One's easier than the other. One, you're typing in, user, fake, username, and password.

If I made it in and if he I don't know. I don't really have that artistic skill. I don't even know what the NFT would be. That's kind of my thought. And then but you haven't even just tried one. Right? Like, when when you first saw Shopify, you went and created a store. Right? Like, you didn't you didn't have to start a company, you know, or sell something, but You went into it. Yeah. One's easier than the other. One, you're typing in, user, fake, username, and password.

01:19:56

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, if I open the shop I also need to put a product there. Right? Like, I I can't also have a

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, if I open the shop I also need to put a product there. Right? Like, I I can't also have a

01:20:02

You can try it. Right? And I think that that's the thing that I saw is, like, a lot of this these worlds Defy NFTs,

You can try it. Right? And I think that that's the thing that I saw is, like, a lot of this these worlds Defy NFTs,

01:20:10

the dollar value is really big at the top end of it. When you go and dig underneath and you're like, ah, there's only, like, five thousand users doing this. Why is it so little? Right. And there's a lot of interest in doing it really hard to do. And

the dollar value is really big at the top end of it. When you go and dig underneath and you're like, ah, there's only, like, five thousand users doing this. Why is it so little? Right. And there's a lot of interest in doing it really hard to do. And

01:20:22

I believe that's, like, one of the biggest opportunities and NFTs is just like make make it really easy for people to do it almost as easy as creating a Shopify store. So that's like project idea one. Like, We're gonna basically pay for your gas. We're gonna make it so you can deploy your own contract without ever thinking about it. You're gonna just click a couple buttons and get a landing page that you can send to people and they can buy stuff digitally. Okay. We're gonna make it literally that easy. So I think that's, like, accessibility, really important.

I believe that's, like, one of the biggest opportunities and NFTs is just like make make it really easy for people to do it almost as easy as creating a Shopify store. So that's like project idea one. Like, We're gonna basically pay for your gas. We're gonna make it so you can deploy your own contract without ever thinking about it. You're gonna just click a couple buttons and get a landing page that you can send to people and they can buy stuff digitally. Okay. We're gonna make it literally that easy. So I think that's, like, accessibility, really important.

01:20:49

Second one, which is the thing you were talking about, which is the PAC protocol, like, you know, there's building products, and then there's building protocol, and protocols are just like, here's an API to go do this thing. And NBA topshop,

Second one, which is the thing you were talking about, which is the PAC protocol, like, you know, there's building products, and then there's building protocol, and protocols are just like, here's an API to go do this thing. And NBA topshop,

01:21:02

I mean, probably one of the biggest digital products we've seen

I mean, probably one of the biggest digital products we've seen

01:21:06

Since Pokemon Go, it I'll kinda call it that. Like, that wave of, like, pipe, you know, reaching some mass market,

Since Pokemon Go, it I'll kinda call it that. Like, that wave of, like, pipe, you know, reaching some mass market,

01:21:14

lot lot of interest in it. But it's very close. Right? I mean, you have to be an NBA player to get one. You have to kind of, like, be in the NBA. You gotta play in this whole ecosystem. And know, who knows what they're gonna be worth in the long run, but the short run, there's a lot of interest there, but only the NDAs doing it, you'll see the other sports teams do it. And but the basic idea of creating a pack with some digital items in it or potentially kind of linking to the real world that's kind of what I got really excited about. And so we, you know, as part of NFT Labs, we created this axe protocol, which is a protocol to create kind of a know, like a little loop box pack where you can put in digital items, and you could put in an image, a sound clip for, like, let's say your guys' podcast,

lot lot of interest in it. But it's very close. Right? I mean, you have to be an NBA player to get one. You have to kind of, like, be in the NBA. You gotta play in this whole ecosystem. And know, who knows what they're gonna be worth in the long run, but the short run, there's a lot of interest there, but only the NDAs doing it, you'll see the other sports teams do it. And but the basic idea of creating a pack with some digital items in it or potentially kind of linking to the real world that's kind of what I got really excited about. And so we, you know, as part of NFT Labs, we created this axe protocol, which is a protocol to create kind of a know, like a little loop box pack where you can put in digital items, and you could put in an image, a sound clip for, like, let's say your guys' podcast,

01:21:57

or, you know, kind of access like, hey, here's a ticket to a VIP event that I'm gonna do here, or here's a meet and greet, or here's my private community. And so

or, you know, kind of access like, hey, here's a ticket to a VIP event that I'm gonna do here, or here's a meet and greet, or here's my private community. And so

01:22:06

Grators are gonna find a lot of ways to use this if we develop that underneath foundation that they can kind of do all of this. And so So, Sam, does that make sense of so, like, for example, what we would do is we would say, oh, cool. These guys built the infrastructure that makes it easy for us to do the following. We can create these little packs, meaning like a card pack or like a box, like a loot box, and basically put it's a mystery box. You don't know what's inside. So you buy one, you open it up, and you're gonna you know, maybe you get the crap or maybe you get the most VIP thing where Sam calls you and coaches you on your business for an hour. And and and what's that call? What's the what's the domain?

Grators are gonna find a lot of ways to use this if we develop that underneath foundation that they can kind of do all of this. And so So, Sam, does that make sense of so, like, for example, what we would do is we would say, oh, cool. These guys built the infrastructure that makes it easy for us to do the following. We can create these little packs, meaning like a card pack or like a box, like a loot box, and basically put it's a mystery box. You don't know what's inside. So you buy one, you open it up, and you're gonna you know, maybe you get the crap or maybe you get the most VIP thing where Sam calls you and coaches you on your business for an hour. And and and what's that call? What's the what's the domain?

01:22:39

So n f t labs dot co is kind of like the main domain. It's not free. That's one of their projects. And so I think this is pretty cool because they're gonna be able to get any, like, influencer like us. And so there's one thing to do what Jack's doing, which is and actually, Jack did this. I don't know if you saw this, furcon, but He initially was selling a specific NFT. Hey, buy this thing. And then he sold three packs with inside was a mystery NFT. He didn't know what it was gonna be. Many six figures, I believe. Yeah. And, like, this mechanic, many, many games use these, like, loop box mechanics because it's fun. It's fun to go buy the thing and see do you get the super rare valuable thing, or did you get kind of the junk and, you know, you so you either get, you know, sixty cents on the dollar or you get sixty dollars for every dollar you spent, and there's, like, this game of chance. And so what they're doing is they made a protocol where it's now easy for us to do that we can make all these packs we could put inside, hey, tickets to our live show in Austin or, you know, you get to be put into our, like, private members group, or here's a t shirt, you know, with our, you know, here's the Harvard shirt, whatever.

So n f t labs dot co is kind of like the main domain. It's not free. That's one of their projects. And so I think this is pretty cool because they're gonna be able to get any, like, influencer like us. And so there's one thing to do what Jack's doing, which is and actually, Jack did this. I don't know if you saw this, furcon, but He initially was selling a specific NFT. Hey, buy this thing. And then he sold three packs with inside was a mystery NFT. He didn't know what it was gonna be. Many six figures, I believe. Yeah. And, like, this mechanic, many, many games use these, like, loop box mechanics because it's fun. It's fun to go buy the thing and see do you get the super rare valuable thing, or did you get kind of the junk and, you know, you so you either get, you know, sixty cents on the dollar or you get sixty dollars for every dollar you spent, and there's, like, this game of chance. And so what they're doing is they made a protocol where it's now easy for us to do that we can make all these packs we could put inside, hey, tickets to our live show in Austin or, you know, you get to be put into our, like, private members group, or here's a t shirt, you know, with our, you know, here's the Harvard shirt, whatever.

01:23:41

And so we could put any number of things, just stuff them in the boxes and assign some probability

And so we could put any number of things, just stuff them in the boxes and assign some probability

01:23:46

And then it'll generate the packs for us, which I think is pretty sweet.

And then it'll generate the packs for us, which I think is pretty sweet.

01:23:49

Yeah. And, you know, like, I I really just think a lot about, like, what what's the value underneath it? Like, the we have to get to, you know I mean, art has value, you know, obviously the person buying it cares about it, but lot of people look at that and go, wait, you know, these things are selling for, like, fifty million bucks plus. And, like, what's the, you know, it's just a JPEG underneath, but, like, I mean, a VIP meet and greet, when you guys do your road show, That's pretty cool, actually. And I think a lot of people would be really excited about it. It sucks if you only option that off to the, you know, person who has the most money. Right? Like, And I think these packs give kinda the, you know, creators and influencers a way to interact with their fans kinda more broadly and say, All of you guys will get a chance and here's kind of the things of it. By the way, you know, if there were only ten VIP meeting reads, we'll make the third party marketplace topshop or if somebody wants to go spend a hundred grand for it, by the way, you guys will earn a cut of that secondary

Yeah. And, you know, like, I I really just think a lot about, like, what what's the value underneath it? Like, the we have to get to, you know I mean, art has value, you know, obviously the person buying it cares about it, but lot of people look at that and go, wait, you know, these things are selling for, like, fifty million bucks plus. And, like, what's the, you know, it's just a JPEG underneath, but, like, I mean, a VIP meet and greet, when you guys do your road show, That's pretty cool, actually. And I think a lot of people would be really excited about it. It sucks if you only option that off to the, you know, person who has the most money. Right? Like, And I think these packs give kinda the, you know, creators and influencers a way to interact with their fans kinda more broadly and say, All of you guys will get a chance and here's kind of the things of it. By the way, you know, if there were only ten VIP meeting reads, we'll make the third party marketplace topshop or if somebody wants to go spend a hundred grand for it, by the way, you guys will earn a cut of that secondary

01:24:40

sale. Plus, somebody who got that if they didn't want it and they wanted to sell it, they can kinda do that. And so you can support both sides of the ecosystem. You can make it kind of fan friendly, but then you can go kind of get a lot of value out of it too. And so I don't know. I find creators really interesting because they're kind of an analogy to founders where, you know, I don't wanna go work at a fan company. I mean, you, you know, I made it through Twitch, but it was not it it's not the right environment for me. Right? Like, it's not where I'm gonna thrive. It's not where I'm gonna be excited. And I think creators have the same thing. Saw a great idea on this, the founder of Replet,

sale. Plus, somebody who got that if they didn't want it and they wanted to sell it, they can kinda do that. And so you can support both sides of the ecosystem. You can make it kind of fan friendly, but then you can go kind of get a lot of value out of it too. And so I don't know. I find creators really interesting because they're kind of an analogy to founders where, you know, I don't wanna go work at a fan company. I mean, you, you know, I made it through Twitch, but it was not it it's not the right environment for me. Right? Like, it's not where I'm gonna thrive. It's not where I'm gonna be excited. And I think creators have the same thing. Saw a great idea on this, the founder of Replet,

01:25:14

tweeted this out. He goes, there's a bunch of people who engineers who work at, like, FANG companies. They make great salaries.

tweeted this out. He goes, there's a bunch of people who engineers who work at, like, FANG companies. They make great salaries.

01:25:20

And they kinda want they're kinda bored. They wanna go to a startup, but the, like, the compensation difference is pretty big, and maybe they have a family, or they just you know, it's just hard to walk away from a guaranteed, you know, five hundred six hundred thousand dollars a year to go work for one fifth at a one fourth at a startup that may or may not make it. And he goes, somebody should just create a fund that just bridges the difference.

And they kinda want they're kinda bored. They wanna go to a startup, but the, like, the compensation difference is pretty big, and maybe they have a family, or they just you know, it's just hard to walk away from a guaranteed, you know, five hundred six hundred thousand dollars a year to go work for one fifth at a one fourth at a startup that may or may not make it. And he goes, somebody should just create a fund that just bridges the difference.

01:25:42

So what it does is it basically says, great. We will,

So what it does is it basically says, great. We will,

01:25:45

will even out that difference. So you get three hundred instead of, let's say, six hundred. And it's an income share agreement, and but you pay us back with your with stock from the from the startup. And so you give up a little bit of the stock from the startup to make back the cash difference. And in doing so, you would create a port so you would you would help more people who today can't leave the salary,

will even out that difference. So you get three hundred instead of, let's say, six hundred. And it's an income share agreement, and but you pay us back with your with stock from the from the startup. And so you give up a little bit of the stock from the startup to make back the cash difference. And in doing so, you would create a port so you would you would help more people who today can't leave the salary,

01:26:05

go to a startup. You'd help the startup, not have to burn more money hiring that person.

go to a startup. You'd help the startup, not have to burn more money hiring that person.

01:26:09

And in you sit in between and by providing that, you would get shares in pretty much every startup, that you wanted to provide this with. So if you say you thought these hundred startups are great, you could basically say, great. You're all eligible for this this, like, kind of like income share agreement that we do, where if you hire somebody and they wanna hire salary, we'll front that salary in exchange for stock.

And in you sit in between and by providing that, you would get shares in pretty much every startup, that you wanted to provide this with. So if you say you thought these hundred startups are great, you could basically say, great. You're all eligible for this this, like, kind of like income share agreement that we do, where if you hire somebody and they wanna hire salary, we'll front that salary in exchange for stock.

01:26:31

And and hopefully bring more talent into the startup workforce. I thought that was a pretty clever idea. A way to get shares in all the companies that you want shares in that you can't go invest in correctly. Yeah. That's really interesting. And, I don't know. I think people should just, you know, ideally, people can do the thing that they enjoy. They wake up every day. They're excited, whether they gotta drive to work or work from home or wherever it is.

And and hopefully bring more talent into the startup workforce. I thought that was a pretty clever idea. A way to get shares in all the companies that you want shares in that you can't go invest in correctly. Yeah. That's really interesting. And, I don't know. I think people should just, you know, ideally, people can do the thing that they enjoy. They wake up every day. They're excited, whether they gotta drive to work or work from home or wherever it is.

01:26:51

If you can do that, like, that that's a big unlock in your life, and a lot of people don't get that opportunity. And early on in my career, I just made those trades, like, kinda no matter how financially painful or, you know,

If you can do that, like, that that's a big unlock in your life, and a lot of people don't get that opportunity. And early on in my career, I just made those trades, like, kinda no matter how financially painful or, you know,

01:27:03

you know,

you know,

01:27:05

misguided it might have seemed at the time, but, like, I just wanted to work on things that I was excited about. And

misguided it might have seemed at the time, but, like, I just wanted to work on things that I was excited about. And

01:27:10

and it went to Apple

and it went to Apple

01:27:12

you went to Applevin, you had another job offer. Right? What was the difference there?

you went to Applevin, you had another job offer. Right? What was the difference there?

01:27:16

Yeah. So I had met this guy Jack Levin. I think he was, like, you know, very early at Google. He was responsible

Yeah. So I had met this guy Jack Levin. I think he was, like, you know, very early at Google. He was responsible

01:27:22

for,

for,

01:27:23

you know, kind of a lot of Google's infrastructure tricks early on, like, how they really scaled it and some of the ways they win is really his responsibility.

you know, kind of a lot of Google's infrastructure tricks early on, like, how they really scaled it and some of the ways they win is really his responsibility.

01:27:31

And he has was working on this company. I think it was called YFrog. It was it was like

And he has was working on this company. I think it was called YFrog. It was it was like

01:27:36

photo sharing type thing. I think they had run another product on a I think it was photo bucket, something like that. They had done some big stuff in the photo space, were doing really well. They needed some engineers.

photo sharing type thing. I think they had run another product on a I think it was photo bucket, something like that. They had done some big stuff in the photo space, were doing really well. They needed some engineers.

01:27:46

I was an engineer at the time, and I could basically come in and learn a lot from this very technical person

I was an engineer at the time, and I could basically come in and learn a lot from this very technical person

01:27:52

seemed really sharp.

seemed really sharp.

01:27:54

He asked me these questions that, like, got my brain going in a good way. Like, you know, very specific questions, like, How do you set up your desktop? And, like, my desktop is very particular,

He asked me these questions that, like, got my brain going in a good way. Like, you know, very specific questions, like, How do you set up your desktop? And, like, my desktop is very particular,

01:28:04

and he wanted to know every detail. And I was, like, this guy gets it. Like, this guy gets me, in the same way.

and he wanted to know every detail. And I was, like, this guy gets it. Like, this guy gets me, in the same way.

01:28:10

Then I met Adam, and Adam was, like, very different.

Then I met Adam, and Adam was, like, very different.

01:28:13

Obviously, very impressive as just a CEO and a person, but, like, The conversation was different. The vibe was different. One was in, like, Moscowos, one was in Palo Alto. Just say a little bit of a different area, but when I when I Adam, I was like, oh, this guy, I could go to a baseball game with him. I could hang out with him. He seems cool. He seems very hungry.

Obviously, very impressive as just a CEO and a person, but, like, The conversation was different. The vibe was different. One was in, like, Moscowos, one was in Palo Alto. Just say a little bit of a different area, but when I when I Adam, I was like, oh, this guy, I could go to a baseball game with him. I could hang out with him. He seems cool. He seems very hungry.

01:28:31

They don't have a clue what they're doing right now. Like, know, they're shutting down an idea. They don't know what the next idea necessarily is gonna be. I think there's gonna be a lot more fun. The rate of learning is gonna be really high. I might get more responsibility.

They don't have a clue what they're doing right now. Like, know, they're shutting down an idea. They don't know what the next idea necessarily is gonna be. I think there's gonna be a lot more fun. The rate of learning is gonna be really high. I might get more responsibility.

01:28:42

But the really good, like, kind of proper choice was

But the really good, like, kind of proper choice was

01:28:45

going to this other job offer. And Adam gave me two options. He gave me a higher salary and a low stock, and a lower salary and a higher stock option. And I was like, I kinda just made the decision down to, like, well, if I go with, you know, Adam,

going to this other job offer. And Adam gave me two options. He gave me a higher salary and a low stock, and a lower salary and a higher stock option. And I was like, I kinda just made the decision down to, like, well, if I go with, you know, Adam,

01:28:58

I need to take the low salary, move back in with my parents, like, take the stock because, like, I'm gonna be in it for the ride. If I just kinda wanna become an engineer, and that's what I want my career to be, I'm gonna go to this other company. I'm gonna take the salary. I'm not worried about the equity necessarily how big that is, but I'm just gonna become a better engineer, and,

I need to take the low salary, move back in with my parents, like, take the stock because, like, I'm gonna be in it for the ride. If I just kinda wanna become an engineer, and that's what I want my career to be, I'm gonna go to this other company. I'm gonna take the salary. I'm not worried about the equity necessarily how big that is, but I'm just gonna become a better engineer, and,

01:29:17

I kinda picked the more unknown,

I kinda picked the more unknown,

01:29:20

less, polished option, obviously worked

less, polished option, obviously worked

01:29:23

out I feel great about it, but You took the move in with the parents option and then took the move in with the parents off in a absurd way. How are you?

out I feel great about it, but You took the move in with the parents option and then took the move in with the parents off in a absurd way. How are you?

01:29:31

How old are you when you started,

How old are you when you started,

01:29:33

at eleven?

at eleven?

01:29:35

Let's see.

Let's see.

01:29:37

Probably, like, twenty

Probably, like, twenty

01:29:39

five, twenty six, you know, twenty six. So moving moving at home wasn't the worst, but, yeah, it wasn't good. That's just cool.

five, twenty six, you know, twenty six. So moving moving at home wasn't the worst, but, yeah, it wasn't good. That's just cool.

01:29:47

Yeah. Twenty six. That's maybe just old enough where it's kind of like, alright. What are you doing? But it's not quite. Inconvenient socially.

Yeah. Twenty six. That's maybe just old enough where it's kind of like, alright. What are you doing? But it's not quite. Inconvenient socially.

01:29:55

Yeah. Like, okay. Why you move about When you move out, right, so you move out of your house and you move back in, it's not, like, a happy, like,

Yeah. Like, okay. Why you move about When you move out, right, so you move out of your house and you move back in, it's not, like, a happy, like,

01:30:02

yeah, I'm winning high fives all around. Right? Like, That's not how you did that. It's not like you had to move in with your wife or something like that.

yeah, I'm winning high fives all around. Right? Like, That's not how you did that. It's not like you had to move in with your wife or something like that.

01:30:10

Yeah. I mean, that that Moving with your wife was that? Yeah. Like like So I mean, like, it's yeah. Like, no. No. No. I mean, like, you, you're, like, in your thirties of, like, you have a family. You know, you're, like, a little more established.

Yeah. I mean, that that Moving with your wife was that? Yeah. Like like So I mean, like, it's yeah. Like, no. No. No. I mean, like, you, you're, like, in your thirties of, like, you have a family. You know, you're, like, a little more established.

01:30:23

Yeah. Twenty six is old enough that it's still, like, you can still fuck around and maybe figure it out what you did.

Yeah. Twenty six is old enough that it's still, like, you can still fuck around and maybe figure it out what you did.

01:30:32

You know, you can still almost be a kid.

You know, you can still almost be a kid.

01:30:34

Yeah. Exactly. I I think for me it was just like, I know I wanted to do this. It sounded more fun. More fun is always good. You're gonna be you're gonna wake up. You're gonna be excited to go to work. It's not gonna be a drag. Like, you know, I I would tell Sean this all the time because we used to do Sunday night call, right, where we would kinda think about the week. And it was like, my friends were always Sunday night, like, oh, man, work tomorrow, like Sunday, like, sucks, like weekends over. And I, and I always felt like, great. It's exciting. Like, more stuff's gonna happen. This week's gonna be great. Like and that's a big difference if more people can do that. Like, that that I think is a is easier to do. When we did those Sunday calls, I remember I'd always be like, oh, like, sorry. I gotta, like, I'm doing this thing with family or friends or whatever. I'm like, I gotta go get on this call. And they're like, oh, man, you have to do calls on Sunday nights, and I was like, I get to do calls. Like, I'm I chose this. I want to do this. I can't wait for Monday. We gotta do it tonight. You know? That was our mindset. And, like, you know, we didn't have as, like, spectacular of an outcome, but I definitely had, like, a spectacular time. Building that out and learning all the different stuff. So anyways, I I I think that's that's if you take away one thing, like, maybe you didn't understand the technology, but, like, the meta lesson of workaround to me is he always picked the more fun and interesting path regardless of the financial thing. And then on the financial side, just made sure that it was a bet on himself and a bet on equity so that if the it fun interesting thing does pan out, you actually do get paid out of it. And I've seen him make that trade of, like,

Yeah. Exactly. I I think for me it was just like, I know I wanted to do this. It sounded more fun. More fun is always good. You're gonna be you're gonna wake up. You're gonna be excited to go to work. It's not gonna be a drag. Like, you know, I I would tell Sean this all the time because we used to do Sunday night call, right, where we would kinda think about the week. And it was like, my friends were always Sunday night, like, oh, man, work tomorrow, like Sunday, like, sucks, like weekends over. And I, and I always felt like, great. It's exciting. Like, more stuff's gonna happen. This week's gonna be great. Like and that's a big difference if more people can do that. Like, that that I think is a is easier to do. When we did those Sunday calls, I remember I'd always be like, oh, like, sorry. I gotta, like, I'm doing this thing with family or friends or whatever. I'm like, I gotta go get on this call. And they're like, oh, man, you have to do calls on Sunday nights, and I was like, I get to do calls. Like, I'm I chose this. I want to do this. I can't wait for Monday. We gotta do it tonight. You know? That was our mindset. And, like, you know, we didn't have as, like, spectacular of an outcome, but I definitely had, like, a spectacular time. Building that out and learning all the different stuff. So anyways, I I I think that's that's if you take away one thing, like, maybe you didn't understand the technology, but, like, the meta lesson of workaround to me is he always picked the more fun and interesting path regardless of the financial thing. And then on the financial side, just made sure that it was a bet on himself and a bet on equity so that if the it fun interesting thing does pan out, you actually do get paid out of it. And I've seen him make that trade of, like,

01:31:57

I'll work harder. I'll earn less. I'll move back in with my parents. I'll, you know, all these things. Right? Like, he's willing to work three times as hard as long as it's three times as fun. And I think most people, at least from where I come from, they don't do that. They when they made career choices, it's a rational logical decision. And I think that gets you to a certain type of outcome. But if you hear these outcomes and you're like, how do I get some of that? I think you gotta follow the irrational playbook a bit more.

I'll work harder. I'll earn less. I'll move back in with my parents. I'll, you know, all these things. Right? Like, he's willing to work three times as hard as long as it's three times as fun. And I think most people, at least from where I come from, they don't do that. They when they made career choices, it's a rational logical decision. And I think that gets you to a certain type of outcome. But if you hear these outcomes and you're like, how do I get some of that? I think you gotta follow the irrational playbook a bit more.

01:32:21

I I mean, Sean, if you look across your journey at monkey inferno, I mean, you're a twenty four year old, pretty

I I mean, Sean, if you look across your journey at monkey inferno, I mean, you're a twenty four year old, pretty

01:32:27

pretty green. Right? Like, I I you guys saw your initial video

pretty green. Right? Like, I I you guys saw your initial video

01:32:31

interview that you had sent in,

interview that you had sent in,

01:32:34

field monkey and inferno. And, like,

field monkey and inferno. And, like,

01:32:37

whether the dollar outcome was there or not, like, I would say the rate of learning, like, the growth difference for you. And I know for for myself, it's a massive difference. Like, I'm embarrassed at what I used to think about back then in terms of building compared to kind of after the journey, but you'd feel like that was like a thousand x payoff and rest of your career is gonna kind of unlock because of it. Right? Like, I would imagine you believe that, but I'm curious how you think about that journey. Yeah. Hundred percent. I I told the guys who set up our studios this And, we I mentioned this on a recent podcast, but I said

whether the dollar outcome was there or not, like, I would say the rate of learning, like, the growth difference for you. And I know for for myself, it's a massive difference. Like, I'm embarrassed at what I used to think about back then in terms of building compared to kind of after the journey, but you'd feel like that was like a thousand x payoff and rest of your career is gonna kind of unlock because of it. Right? Like, I would imagine you believe that, but I'm curious how you think about that journey. Yeah. Hundred percent. I I told the guys who set up our studios this And, we I mentioned this on a recent podcast, but I said

01:33:07

they came they they flew out here to San Francisco. They were, like, staying in a motel six type of thing. They're, like, I'm gonna build this out. And, you know, they're twenty two, twenty three, twenty four years old, something like that. And

they came they they flew out here to San Francisco. They were, like, staying in a motel six type of thing. They're, like, I'm gonna build this out. And, you know, they're twenty two, twenty three, twenty four years old, something like that. And

01:33:18

they had sent in a video, like, kind of a video interview to be like, Sam, Sean, choose us to, like, like, we will help you guys out. We will come build your studio for you. They've, like, been a ballsy YouTube video and tweeting at us like nonstop. I used to be? I used to wait in parking lots to meet CEOs and investors I wanted to meet just so I could say I've been here since seven AM waiting in the parking lot for you to come out, like, Do you have five minutes of time? Right? I used to do all these stunts, and they were doing a stunt to meet us. And I thought that was handishing. And when they were there, I was like,

they had sent in a video, like, kind of a video interview to be like, Sam, Sean, choose us to, like, like, we will help you guys out. We will come build your studio for you. They've, like, been a ballsy YouTube video and tweeting at us like nonstop. I used to be? I used to wait in parking lots to meet CEOs and investors I wanted to meet just so I could say I've been here since seven AM waiting in the parking lot for you to come out, like, Do you have five minutes of time? Right? I used to do all these stunts, and they were doing a stunt to meet us. And I thought that was handishing. And when they were there, I was like,

01:33:45

they kind of were, like, deferring to me too much. They were sort of, like it's kinda, like, too much respect.

they kind of were, like, deferring to me too much. They were sort of, like it's kinda, like, too much respect.

01:33:50

And I told him I was, like, dude,

And I told him I was, like, dude,

01:33:53

You you kinda want what I have? I want what you have. I want that time back.

You you kinda want what I have? I want what you have. I want that time back.

01:33:57

And I wanna be back where you guys are where it's four friends living in a one bedroom apartment,

And I wanna be back where you guys are where it's four friends living in a one bedroom apartment,

01:34:02

and you're making videos and you kind of, like, why are we trying to be YouTubers? I don't know. It seems fun. Let's just do it. And then, like, we think these guys have a cool podcast. Fuck it. Let's fly out and meet them and help them out with their studio and we don't know what's you know, there's no there's nothing clearly in it for us, but, like, we'll hop on that plane tomorrow and go make it happen. I told him I said, That was by far the most fun time.

and you're making videos and you kind of, like, why are we trying to be YouTubers? I don't know. It seems fun. Let's just do it. And then, like, we think these guys have a cool podcast. Fuck it. Let's fly out and meet them and help them out with their studio and we don't know what's you know, there's no there's nothing clearly in it for us, but, like, we'll hop on that plane tomorrow and go make it happen. I told him I said, That was by far the most fun time.

01:34:22

There was the highest rate of learning. And I remember at the time feeling like, oh, man, like, everything we do is so bootleg and ghetto.

There was the highest rate of learning. And I remember at the time feeling like, oh, man, like, everything we do is so bootleg and ghetto.

01:34:29

And, like

And, like

01:34:30

but that was the right path, actually, for me, for a person like me who wanted what I wanted out of life. And I said, you're gonna I remember I went to Duke. Most of my friends went to med school, law school, or banking, or consulting.

but that was the right path, actually, for me, for a person like me who wanted what I wanted out of life. And I said, you're gonna I remember I went to Duke. Most of my friends went to med school, law school, or banking, or consulting.

01:34:40

And so every, you know, every weekend, they would post, like,

And so every, you know, every weekend, they would post, like,

01:34:44

they're, you know, they're making six figures. They're posting themselves at a bar. They're like, like, I wasn't dating. I had no income. I was sleeping on an air mattress. You know, you know, my my co founder lived in my closet. Right? So it was like, you know, it was ghetto. And so I remember thinking, well,

they're, you know, they're making six figures. They're posting themselves at a bar. They're like, like, I wasn't dating. I had no income. I was sleeping on an air mattress. You know, you know, my my co founder lived in my closet. Right? So it was like, you know, it was ghetto. And so I remember thinking, well,

01:34:59

Maybe, you know, there was moments of doubt where I was like, maybe I should have gone the traditional path. Maybe I should have gone to med school after all. But, but it was so fun. I couldn't, you know, I didn't there was not a real conversation in my head. What I was telling these guys was, yo,

Maybe, you know, there was moments of doubt where I was like, maybe I should have gone the traditional path. Maybe I should have gone to med school after all. But, but it was so fun. I couldn't, you know, I didn't there was not a real conversation in my head. What I was telling these guys was, yo,

01:35:11

you're gonna see your friends who are on the traditional path, and they're gonna look like they're way far ahead of you right now, and there's gonna be a part of you who feels like you're locked, you're behind.

you're gonna see your friends who are on the traditional path, and they're gonna look like they're way far ahead of you right now, and there's gonna be a part of you who feels like you're locked, you're behind.

01:35:19

If you're like me, that's what I felt.

If you're like me, that's what I felt.

01:35:21

Stay the path and just know that, like,

Stay the path and just know that, like,

01:35:24

this is the first quarter.

this is the first quarter.

01:35:26

We're gonna be long term oriented. We're gonna think about this, like, in a ten, twenty year time scale. Who do you wanna be in ten, twenty years? Like, you're gonna have a lot of fun now and then your rewards are gonna catch up ten, twenty years from now. And if you're okay with that trade of having more fun now and rewards that are a little back loaded,

We're gonna be long term oriented. We're gonna think about this, like, in a ten, twenty year time scale. Who do you wanna be in ten, twenty years? Like, you're gonna have a lot of fun now and then your rewards are gonna catch up ten, twenty years from now. And if you're okay with that trade of having more fun now and rewards that are a little back loaded,

01:35:43

this is the right path. I wish somebody had just told me at that time, guys,

this is the right path. I wish somebody had just told me at that time, guys,

01:35:47

this looks ghetto as hell, but you're on the right path.

this looks ghetto as hell, but you're on the right path.

01:35:50

We kind of just, like, for better or worse just stuck with it, and I want more people to stick with it when they're in that that mode. And you you've done the same traveling through Europe, playing poker to support yourself, and, like, you know, moving back in with your parents. It's not a un it sounds at the time it feels uncommon, but it's actually quite common amongst people who end up successful and entrepreneurial way. Yep. Flip side is just not easy. Right? You're gonna go the harder path. Like, you know, I didn't I didn't have I don't have a college degree I didn't get that. A lot of people ask me, hey, should I go to college? Like, I have these other things going on. And, you know, like, you don't have to. You can learn on your own, especially now, but

We kind of just, like, for better or worse just stuck with it, and I want more people to stick with it when they're in that that mode. And you you've done the same traveling through Europe, playing poker to support yourself, and, like, you know, moving back in with your parents. It's not a un it sounds at the time it feels uncommon, but it's actually quite common amongst people who end up successful and entrepreneurial way. Yep. Flip side is just not easy. Right? You're gonna go the harder path. Like, you know, I didn't I didn't have I don't have a college degree I didn't get that. A lot of people ask me, hey, should I go to college? Like, I have these other things going on. And, you know, like, you don't have to. You can learn on your own, especially now, but

01:36:23

It's definitely gonna be a harder path. Don't expect linear returns where if I put in a year of work, I get a a year of kind of sass and then I put in five years of work. I get five years of success. It might be nothing for a long time, and you might kind of get it in the end, but I know the journey is very exciting. Like, that that's means what matters, because that's what you're gonna do every day. You're gonna wake up every day, and you're gonna go do this thing. Are you excited about that? And and that's kind of, like, critical. Yeah. Thank you, dude. I always take a lot of notes. I'm taking notes now whenever you come.

It's definitely gonna be a harder path. Don't expect linear returns where if I put in a year of work, I get a a year of kind of sass and then I put in five years of work. I get five years of success. It might be nothing for a long time, and you might kind of get it in the end, but I know the journey is very exciting. Like, that that's means what matters, because that's what you're gonna do every day. You're gonna wake up every day, and you're gonna go do this thing. Are you excited about that? And and that's kind of, like, critical. Yeah. Thank you, dude. I always take a lot of notes. I'm taking notes now whenever you come.

01:36:51

I, I'm excited for your success. That's so cool. I,

I, I'm excited for your success. That's so cool. I,

01:36:55

thought App loving was like this huge thing whenever it was supposed to sell

thought App loving was like this huge thing whenever it was supposed to sell

01:37:00

a year or whatever a few years ago now. And then now seeing what it is now. I'm like, oh my gosh. That's that's it's it's blew my expectations. I'm sure it does. You won't, yours as well. So congratulations. That's pretty bad ass. And what you're building is awesome. Foundors inc. That's bad ass. Yes. Sweet. No. Appreciate it. And, yeah, no. This has been fun. I was, like, hearing you guys. It was kind of fun to be on as well. And We're gonna

a year or whatever a few years ago now. And then now seeing what it is now. I'm like, oh my gosh. That's that's it's it's blew my expectations. I'm sure it does. You won't, yours as well. So congratulations. That's pretty bad ass. And what you're building is awesome. Foundors inc. That's bad ass. Yes. Sweet. No. Appreciate it. And, yeah, no. This has been fun. I was, like, hearing you guys. It was kind of fun to be on as well. And We're gonna

01:37:22

founders, f dot ink, or founders dot ink? Yeah. F dot ink, that's the website. And so that's the domain. You can find me on Twitter, Fricon, r f u r q a n r. So furcon, thanks for coming.

founders, f dot ink, or founders dot ink? Yeah. F dot ink, that's the website. And so that's the domain. You can find me on Twitter, Fricon, r f u r q a n r. So furcon, thanks for coming.

01:37:40

I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to.

I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to.

01:37:45

I put my all in it like a day's all going to roll. Let's travel never looking back

I put my all in it like a day's all going to roll. Let's travel never looking back

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