00:00

By the way, this episode, where's the camera?

By the way, this episode, where's the camera?

00:02

This is this episode's not for you. This episode's for me. I haven't listened to this guy for a long time. I read his books.

This is this episode's not for you. This episode's for me. I haven't listened to this guy for a long time. I read his books.

00:08

I I used to gift your your book was one of the most gifted books I had for, like, a long time. Maybe the first ten years, my Thank you. Career. Thank you. And I would say, You're about to I'm giving you the four hour fever. Like, it's called the four hour work week. I said, you're gonna read this. And then for four hours, you're gonna question everything in your life. I called out the four hour fever. It's normal. Don't worry. Call a doctor, fake. Beyond four hours.

I I used to gift your your book was one of the most gifted books I had for, like, a long time. Maybe the first ten years, my Thank you. Career. Thank you. And I would say, You're about to I'm giving you the four hour fever. Like, it's called the four hour work week. I said, you're gonna read this. And then for four hours, you're gonna question everything in your life. I called out the four hour fever. It's normal. Don't worry. Call a doctor, fake. Beyond four hours.

00:34

And so today, I have, like, a bunch of things that I think maybe the audience will snow. Honestly, I don't give a shit. Just wanted to ask you the questions that I wanna know. I think that's the key to a good podcast. Exactly. So, one of the things I wanted to know is you talked about this space where you're like, I'm thinking about what's next. I've been there. I sold my company. What's next? I have a lot of friends that are in that spot. Yeah. And

And so today, I have, like, a bunch of things that I think maybe the audience will snow. Honestly, I don't give a shit. Just wanted to ask you the questions that I wanna know. I think that's the key to a good podcast. Exactly. So, one of the things I wanted to know is you talked about this space where you're like, I'm thinking about what's next. I've been there. I sold my company. What's next? I have a lot of friends that are in that spot. Yeah. And

00:55

what's the

what's the

00:56

what's the approach because it can be paralyzing

what's the approach because it can be paralyzing

00:59

to have a thousand options. Yeah. Especially when you have a track record. You have a track record of success now. That almost adds some difficulty to the to the to the answer of what's next because it's gotta be good. Can't be can't be something tiny. Right? How does Tim Ferris approach to what's next question? Yeah. I think it can be tiny. In a sense. Right? I mean, let's just I'll answer your question, but let's just note that the podcast started as. I'm gonna try to try six

to have a thousand options. Yeah. Especially when you have a track record. You have a track record of success now. That almost adds some difficulty to the to the to the answer of what's next because it's gotta be good. Can't be can't be something tiny. Right? How does Tim Ferris approach to what's next question? Yeah. I think it can be tiny. In a sense. Right? I mean, let's just I'll answer your question, but let's just note that the podcast started as. I'm gonna try to try six

01:23

episodes. That's tiny. So did this spike as well, like, this is a this is a tiny Right. So I think that

episodes. That's tiny. So did this spike as well, like, this is a this is a tiny Right. So I think that

01:30

to quote,

to quote,

01:31

Seth Gordon, who is really

Seth Gordon, who is really

01:33

wise beyond even what people would expect. I mean, and he walks the walk. He's real operator who has authored a contrarian. That's not

wise beyond even what people would expect. I mean, and he walks the walk. He's real operator who has authored a contrarian. That's not

01:41

contrarian. It's an unorthodox life for himself. And I have a lot of respect for Seth. And,

contrarian. It's an unorthodox life for himself. And I have a lot of respect for Seth. And,

01:47

you know, he said big things the big dreams changing the world. Those are easy to hide behind.

you know, he said big things the big dreams changing the world. Those are easy to hide behind.

01:53

He's like, but doing the smallest thing

He's like, but doing the smallest thing

01:56

possible, the next action, you can't hide behind that. Right? It's it's a it's a pass fail. Say that again. Some big dreams are easy to hide behind. Yeah. But when you make something Next next two six

possible, the next action, you can't hide behind that. Right? It's it's a it's a pass fail. Say that again. Some big dreams are easy to hide behind. Yeah. But when you make something Next next two six

02:07

episodes, Right. If you don't do six episodes, you fail to do six episodes.

episodes, Right. If you don't do six episodes, you fail to do six episodes.

02:11

But if it's like I'm gonna change the world and do this and blah blah blah.

But if it's like I'm gonna change the world and do this and blah blah blah.

02:16

Great.

Great.

02:17

But, like, you know, not to not to, like, quote everybody in the world, but, like, kinda David Allen Gtd selling. Okay. Great. What's the next physical action? Right.

But, like, you know, not to not to, like, quote everybody in the world, but, like, kinda David Allen Gtd selling. Okay. Great. What's the next physical action? Right.

02:26

Okay. Now you have a report card, right, that I can give you because you've just made yourself accountable to me

Okay. Now you have a report card, right, that I can give you because you've just made yourself accountable to me

02:32

in a way to, like, do this thing that is very discreet.

in a way to, like, do this thing that is very discreet.

02:35

And so this I I don't underestimate the small things. I think the big visions

And so this I I don't underestimate the small things. I think the big visions

02:40

can be helpful at times, and I could give examples of that where it's been helpful for me. But to answer your question, in terms of choosing the next thing, I'll say up front. I don't know what my next thing is right now. But how do you approach that? How do you approach that? Well, there yeah. There are a few ways.

can be helpful at times, and I could give examples of that where it's been helpful for me. But to answer your question, in terms of choosing the next thing, I'll say up front. I don't know what my next thing is right now. But how do you approach that? How do you approach that? Well, there yeah. There are a few ways.

02:55

So the first is

So the first is

02:58

I

I

02:59

make, I suppose, a menu of things I would like to try. Okay. Which is often a thing, a a list of things I would like to learn.

make, I suppose, a menu of things I would like to try. Okay. Which is often a thing, a a list of things I would like to learn.

03:07

I just returned from

I just returned from

03:08

three days overseas with a game designer

three days overseas with a game designer

03:12

prototyping games. Nice. And in board games or yeah. Yeah. Sweet. And that's something I'm trying. Right. We'll see.

prototyping games. Nice. And in board games or yeah. Yeah. Sweet. And that's something I'm trying. Right. We'll see.

03:20

And

And

03:21

that there's a lot that goes into even choosing the things on that list.

that there's a lot that goes into even choosing the things on that list.

03:26

But And do you have a box on the menu? Like, the part of the menu where it's like, and we have, like, Cerwich and that's, you know, you do you have the weird box where you're like, let me think of some non obvious? Oh, I try to do weird stuff. Right? No. No. Because there's tons of stuff that I could do that would be straightforward

But And do you have a box on the menu? Like, the part of the menu where it's like, and we have, like, Cerwich and that's, you know, you do you have the weird box where you're like, let me think of some non obvious? Oh, I try to do weird stuff. Right? No. No. Because there's tons of stuff that I could do that would be straightforward

03:40

or predictable

or predictable

03:42

or reliably profitable. That's the

or reliably profitable. That's the

03:45

that's the most seductive. Right.

that's the most seductive. Right.

03:48

And I'm not saying they're bad options, but, like, I could make a course. Yeah.

And I'm not saying they're bad options, but, like, I could make a course. Yeah.

03:52

I could

I could

03:53

I'm I I know I could execute that and make it do really well. Right? I I know that. I know I could potentially create some type of membership platform or mastermind

I'm I I know I could execute that and make it do really well. Right? I I know that. I know I could potentially create some type of membership platform or mastermind

04:06

something like that. And I think I would enjoy some of these things. Right.

something like that. And I think I would enjoy some of these things. Right.

04:10

However,

However,

04:11

let me come back to the criteria. So whether I'm coming up with my list, I'd go for weird. If there's something weird,

let me come back to the criteria. So whether I'm coming up with my list, I'd go for weird. If there's something weird,

04:18

that is a huge

that is a huge

04:20

plus kind of yeah. That's like a turbo boost for inclusion. Right. You're not bending to the social expectations

plus kind of yeah. That's like a turbo boost for inclusion. Right. You're not bending to the social expectations

04:26

or norms. Right. Those are the weird things. That's why they seem weird.

or norms. Right. Those are the weird things. That's why they seem weird.

04:31

And chances are if those end up on your list,

And chances are if those end up on your list,

04:35

either they're easier for you than they are for other people,

either they're easier for you than they are for other people,

04:38

or you're gonna have the enthusiasm and therefore endurance

or you're gonna have the enthusiasm and therefore endurance

04:42

to do it longer, right, harder, more intensely with greater purpose than other people. Those are all huge competitive advantages.

to do it longer, right, harder, more intensely with greater purpose than other people. Those are all huge competitive advantages.

04:49

Not that this not that all of life is a competition, but to stand out in a crowd, right,

Not that this not that all of life is a competition, but to stand out in a crowd, right,

04:56

you need to be. The weird ones are like the immigrants. It's like, you got here? Yeah. If you made it here, you already have shown some amount of there must be some strength that got you onto this list. Oh, totally. Because you had a negative filter associated with it. Yeah. Yeah. Or you just come from better, like, more resilient or risk taking genetic stock.

you need to be. The weird ones are like the immigrants. It's like, you got here? Yeah. If you made it here, you already have shown some amount of there must be some strength that got you onto this list. Oh, totally. Because you had a negative filter associated with it. Yeah. Yeah. Or you just come from better, like, more resilient or risk taking genetic stock.

05:12

If I could invest in, like, first or second generation immigrants. Yeah. If I could just choose if I could

If I could invest in, like, first or second generation immigrants. Yeah. If I could just choose if I could

05:19

only choose certain filters. That would be very high. I've said that. I've been like, I love Mormons. I love if you're from the Ukraine, I'm listening. If your name is Dimitri, tell me more. What what's your idea composer? Yeah. So so the the the short synopsis of how I choose projects is

only choose certain filters. That would be very high. I've said that. I've been like, I love Mormons. I love if you're from the Ukraine, I'm listening. If your name is Dimitri, tell me more. What what's your idea composer? Yeah. So so the the the short synopsis of how I choose projects is

05:34

I look for projects that can be successes even for me long term, even if they fail short term. What that means is

I look for projects that can be successes even for me long term, even if they fail short term. What that means is

05:43

Project where by any external measurement or perception, they can be a failure, however, in the process of pursuing those things, I develop

Project where by any external measurement or perception, they can be a failure, however, in the process of pursuing those things, I develop

05:53

or deepen relationships or developer deepen skills

or deepen relationships or developer deepen skills

05:57

that are durable. Right. And those

that are durable. Right. And those

06:00

And even if snowballs, something like that. Those snowball. Right. Right? Because if I do, like, five, four projects, they all fail,

And even if snowballs, something like that. Those snowball. Right. Right? Because if I do, like, five, four projects, they all fail,

06:08

but I am developing relationships with the type of people I wanna develop relationships with. I'm developing new skills.

but I am developing relationships with the type of people I wanna develop relationships with. I'm developing new skills.

06:14

And then I start to bridge all those things, and I'm paying attention. I'm taking good notes.

And then I start to bridge all those things, and I'm paying attention. I'm taking good notes.

06:19

My experience is eventually

My experience is eventually

06:22

you win. Right. Whatever that happens to me.

you win. Right. Whatever that happens to me.

06:25

That's kind of it, honestly.

That's kind of it, honestly.

06:28

Outside of that, I would say

Outside of that, I would say

06:30

these days, some getting getting all this fuck and all that is energy and energy out. Like, does this

these days, some getting getting all this fuck and all that is energy and energy out. Like, does this

06:37

do I have more energy doing this, or do I have substantially less. Right. And that's a product also not just of what you're doing, where you are, who you're interacting with. I pay attention to that stuff because I could do something that people might see frivolous archery or

do I have more energy doing this, or do I have substantially less. Right. And that's a product also not just of what you're doing, where you are, who you're interacting with. I pay attention to that stuff because I could do something that people might see frivolous archery or

06:51

something.

something.

06:52

I could I could pick a whole ton of them that seem like wastes of time, but that's like, plugging my iPhone into the wall. It's like, oh, now I have a hundred percent charge instead of twenty percent charge. There's a lot more that I can do with this phone. Right. And just because I plugged it into the charger and the circus fun house doesn't mean I have to use it for the circus fun house. Right. You get to transfer it to other things. So that's that's also something as a fundamental currency that I pay a lot of attention to. Right. I'll tell you two, related things on that. Last night, I was at dinner with, I think, a mutual friend, Joe. Gabby.

I could I could pick a whole ton of them that seem like wastes of time, but that's like, plugging my iPhone into the wall. It's like, oh, now I have a hundred percent charge instead of twenty percent charge. There's a lot more that I can do with this phone. Right. And just because I plugged it into the charger and the circus fun house doesn't mean I have to use it for the circus fun house. Right. You get to transfer it to other things. So that's that's also something as a fundamental currency that I pay a lot of attention to. Right. I'll tell you two, related things on that. Last night, I was at dinner with, I think, a mutual friend, Joe. Gabby.

07:29

And he was saying, he's like, oh, what are you in town for? I was like, I'll do a couple of podcasts. And we were talking about it. He's like, okay. So what's like

And he was saying, he's like, oh, what are you in town for? I was like, I'll do a couple of podcasts. And we were talking about it. He's like, okay. So what's like

07:35

what's like a win? You know, like, why do you do that? You fly into town, you leave your kids, you you make an effort. What are you looking for out of these? I said, well, I just wanna leave with more energy than I came. And, really, I want the guests to feel that way too. Like,

what's like a win? You know, like, why do you do that? You fly into town, you leave your kids, you you make an effort. What are you looking for out of these? I said, well, I just wanna leave with more energy than I came. And, really, I want the guests to feel that way too. Like,

07:47

at the end of the day, like, what is the only way I can guarantee a success out of this is if you walk out of here feeling energized rather than the drain from this conversation. Mhmm. And if that's a so I've I've been using that heuristic and it's so powerful

at the end of the day, like, what is the only way I can guarantee a success out of this is if you walk out of here feeling energized rather than the drain from this conversation. Mhmm. And if that's a so I've I've been using that heuristic and it's so powerful

07:59

to use the kind of like where is my energy after activity? And how am I leaving the people around me? Yeah. Also, is is you want it to be mutually beneficial in that way? The second thing he said was I thought you'd find interesting. Mhmm. I was like,

to use the kind of like where is my energy after activity? And how am I leaving the people around me? Yeah. Also, is is you want it to be mutually beneficial in that way? The second thing he said was I thought you'd find interesting. Mhmm. I was like,

08:11

we're going through this exercise. I do called the Perfect Tuesday. So I was like, life is not really about these peak experiences. I was like, yes, those like, going and seeing, like, there's the total eclipse happening. Go and see this total eclipse. Apparently, it's like a totally emotional experience if you're there. I think it's happening in Dallas this weekend or whatever. There are those moments, but the few and far between most of your life is just like Tuesday. It's just normal Tuesdays over and over again, and to put a lot of effort into thinking, like, what's a dream average day me and then try to live that dream. And so we were talking about it and I asked him, I said, like, how close are you to your perfect Tuesday? Because he's got all the resources in the world. Right? Salt Air b n b. He's, you know, are they in public? It's a super success.

we're going through this exercise. I do called the Perfect Tuesday. So I was like, life is not really about these peak experiences. I was like, yes, those like, going and seeing, like, there's the total eclipse happening. Go and see this total eclipse. Apparently, it's like a totally emotional experience if you're there. I think it's happening in Dallas this weekend or whatever. There are those moments, but the few and far between most of your life is just like Tuesday. It's just normal Tuesdays over and over again, and to put a lot of effort into thinking, like, what's a dream average day me and then try to live that dream. And so we were talking about it and I asked him, I said, like, how close are you to your perfect Tuesday? Because he's got all the resources in the world. Right? Salt Air b n b. He's, you know, are they in public? It's a super success.

08:48

And one of the things he said, he goes, that's a great question.

And one of the things he said, he goes, that's a great question.

08:51

I go to the gym for my physical

I go to the gym for my physical

08:53

my to get my, like, to physically fulfill myself. And then I work, which is great. And I feel productive and useful to the world. And I have my family, which is love, He's like, but I don't really make time for creativity anymore. He's like, I'm he's a designer by by trade. And he's like, I need, like, a creative gym. He's like, I I feel like if I sat down and I started sketching, it almost feel like I'm wasting time. Like, it's, like, what am I doing here? And I found that really interesting, and I feel like you do a good job of kind of making time for the things even if they're not

my to get my, like, to physically fulfill myself. And then I work, which is great. And I feel productive and useful to the world. And I have my family, which is love, He's like, but I don't really make time for creativity anymore. He's like, I'm he's a designer by by trade. And he's like, I need, like, a creative gym. He's like, I I feel like if I sat down and I started sketching, it almost feel like I'm wasting time. Like, it's, like, what am I doing here? And I found that really interesting, and I feel like you do a good job of kind of making time for the things even if they're not

09:23

societal norms for what people do. I try. Yeah. I try to do it. For sure.

societal norms for what people do. I try. Yeah. I try to do it. For sure.

09:29

Do you have your version of a creative gym? Yeah. I mean, I was, like, playing the drums earlier today. So from a, like, financial perspective,

Do you have your version of a creative gym? Yeah. I mean, I was, like, playing the drums earlier today. So from a, like, financial perspective,

09:36

that could be wasted time. I'll the financial stuff and we can talk about it. It's

that could be wasted time. I'll the financial stuff and we can talk about it. It's

09:42

very useful for certain things. I mean, money only has a certain u It's kinda like, yeah, you can eat until you're full, and then you can eat until you're stuffed, and then you can eat until you're sick. But, like, at what point do you stop eating Like there's a point beyond which

very useful for certain things. I mean, money only has a certain u It's kinda like, yeah, you can eat until you're full, and then you can eat until you're stuffed, and then you can eat until you're sick. But, like, at what point do you stop eating Like there's a point beyond which

09:56

food ceases to serve any positive function. Right? And then

food ceases to serve any positive function. Right? And then

10:03

like things in excess kinda become their opposite. So you have to be very careful with money and other things, you know, alcohol, power,

like things in excess kinda become their opposite. So you have to be very careful with money and other things, you know, alcohol, power,

10:09

fame.

fame.

10:10

They they can distort a lot of things. How do you keep that in check? It's hard to keep some of those things in check.

They they can distort a lot of things. How do you keep that in check? It's hard to keep some of those things in check.

10:17

I mean, I just know too many rich people now to think that

I mean, I just know too many rich people now to think that

10:21

money

money

10:22

fixes the inner game or

fixes the inner game or

10:25

the

the

10:26

most problematic kind of psychological challenges that people have. It doesn't at all. It can fix a lot. Like, money can fix money problems.

most problematic kind of psychological challenges that people have. It doesn't at all. It can fix a lot. Like, money can fix money problems.

10:35

Right.

Right.

10:36

But that's just one category, right, of issue. And, yeah, and it's incredibly useful as a vehicle for other things.

But that's just one category, right, of issue. And, yeah, and it's incredibly useful as a vehicle for other things.

10:44

But I find a lot of folks very uncreative

But I find a lot of folks very uncreative

10:48

about how they use money.

about how they use money.

10:50

So I I do, I would say, make time for

So I I do, I would say, make time for

10:54

the creative gym more so in the last handful of years,

the creative gym more so in the last handful of years,

10:57

but time with concept artists doing concept pushes, building fictional worlds, playing the drums earlier today,

but time with concept artists doing concept pushes, building fictional worlds, playing the drums earlier today,

11:04

had an art teacher, Stan prokopenko, who runs proko dot com, amazing teacher,

had an art teacher, Stan prokopenko, who runs proko dot com, amazing teacher,

11:13

came out and we worked on

came out and we worked on

11:15

a whole bunch of different aspects of drawing and live charcoal sketching and

a whole bunch of different aspects of drawing and live charcoal sketching and

11:21

shading and so on, one could make the argument that isn't entirely off base that must be

shading and so on, one could make the argument that isn't entirely off base that must be

11:28

nice. Great. You have all this time. You gotta do what you wanna do.

nice. Great. You have all this time. You gotta do what you wanna do.

11:32

But I will say also that when I have been

But I will say also that when I have been

11:36

at levels of peak performance professionally.

at levels of peak performance professionally.

11:40

I usually have a creative outlet of some type.

I usually have a creative outlet of some type.

11:43

It may not take the form charcoal

It may not take the form charcoal

11:46

Right. Drawing. That's a bit on the nose as far as creativity goes. But, like, jujitsu's creative.

Right. Drawing. That's a bit on the nose as far as creativity goes. But, like, jujitsu's creative.

11:51

Right? It's like going to the jujitsu gym and learning

Right? It's like going to the jujitsu gym and learning

11:54

how to operate in that free flowing environment. That's very creative. Right. So if if you're working on anything that requires a level of

how to operate in that free flowing environment. That's very creative. Right. So if if you're working on anything that requires a level of

12:03

extreme present state awareness and improvisation

extreme present state awareness and improvisation

12:06

and experimentation.

and experimentation.

12:08

Like, you're in the creativity game. Right. So there are a lot of ways to do that. I got a book recommendation from you. Oh, yeah. Haven't seen that. This book is a few decades. Yeah. I never heard this book. An old book This book is called,

Like, you're in the creativity game. Right. So there are a lot of ways to do that. I got a book recommendation from you. Oh, yeah. Haven't seen that. This book is a few decades. Yeah. I never heard this book. An old book This book is called,

12:20

toughness training for sports, and it's by Jim Laura.

toughness training for sports, and it's by Jim Laura.

12:23

Do you remember anything from this book? You you probably read this a long time ago. I mean, I read that when I was probably

Do you remember anything from this book? You you probably read this a long time ago. I mean, I read that when I was probably

12:30

fifteen or sixteen. And I do remember that there is an inventory. There's an assessment in

fifteen or sixteen. And I do remember that there is an inventory. There's an assessment in

12:37

there. It's two or three pages long, and you're intended to give that to your coaches, peers, people around

there. It's two or three pages long, and you're intended to give that to your coaches, peers, people around

12:42

you.

you.

12:46

For like a three what I would call now, a three sixty review

For like a three what I would call now, a three sixty review

12:50

of different factors that affect mental toughness.

of different factors that affect mental toughness.

12:54

Yeah. And I did that when I was fifteen or sixteen. This one. Right? Oh, there you go.

Yeah. And I did that when I was fifteen or sixteen. This one. Right? Oh, there you go.

13:00

Yep. There we go. It's the competitive adjective profile.

Yep. There we go. It's the competitive adjective profile.

13:04

Yeah. So there's there's I found this book

Yeah. So there's there's I found this book

13:07

incredibly helpful and later had Jim Blair on the podcast did some training with him. And a and a tennis pro with tennis.

incredibly helpful and later had Jim Blair on the podcast did some training with him. And a and a tennis pro with tennis.

13:16

And having that three sixty review from a mental toughness perspective

And having that three sixty review from a mental toughness perspective

13:23

was incredibly

was incredibly

13:24

helpful to me. It it provided me with a level of

helpful to me. It it provided me with a level of

13:29

awareness that I I I couldn't have developed on eye on. Right.

awareness that I I I couldn't have developed on eye on. Right.

13:33

And

And

13:34

one of the things it talks about is basically

one of the things it talks about is basically

13:37

if you haven't read the book, it's like there's talent you're born with. There's skills, which everybody else understands, you practice. And then there's performance.

if you haven't read the book, it's like there's talent you're born with. There's skills, which everybody else understands, you practice. And then there's performance.

13:45

Yep. And there's a gap between talent and skill. That gap is called practice. There's a gap between skills and performance,

Yep. And there's a gap between talent and skill. That gap is called practice. There's a gap between skills and performance,

13:51

and that's basically

and that's basically

13:53

your toughness training. It's the and he calls it, I think, the ideal performance state And it's like if you ever played sports, you know this, which is like some games, you're off. Oh, I just wasn't fully locked in. I was

your toughness training. It's the and he calls it, I think, the ideal performance state And it's like if you ever played sports, you know this, which is like some games, you're off. Oh, I just wasn't fully locked in. I was

14:04

I just wasn't I didn't play up to my potential. So, like, what causes that versus those days when you get in flow state or you're just totally dialed in and you you kick butt out there and it's like, well, that's because you were in your ideal performance state. This is not just for sports, obviously. Like, this can be for, you know, how you show up as a dad at home. It could be show for work, it could be for this podcast. How do I show up in my ideal performance state. Do you do things to be in your kind of ideal performance state? I do. I do. I would say that also just to highlight a few other things in here,

I just wasn't I didn't play up to my potential. So, like, what causes that versus those days when you get in flow state or you're just totally dialed in and you you kick butt out there and it's like, well, that's because you were in your ideal performance state. This is not just for sports, obviously. Like, this can be for, you know, how you show up as a dad at home. It could be show for work, it could be for this podcast. How do I show up in my ideal performance state. Do you do things to be in your kind of ideal performance state? I do. I do. I would say that also just to highlight a few other things in here,

14:34

I haven't looked at this in a very long time, twenty plus years, but

I haven't looked at this in a very long time, twenty plus years, but

14:39

it discusses at length stress and recovery.

it discusses at length stress and recovery.

14:41

And deloading phases and periodization

And deloading phases and periodization

14:46

and awareness.

and awareness.

14:48

And they're all of these different checklists

And they're all of these different checklists

14:50

and assessments,

and assessments,

14:52

different assessments that you might use after a given training session,

different assessments that you might use after a given training session,

14:56

and

and

14:58

stress

stress

14:59

evaluations

evaluations

14:59

and so on, all of which

and so on, all of which

15:02

helped me to become more aware of cause and effect.

helped me to become more aware of cause and effect.

15:06

In in what I was doing. So I had a I had a fantastic I mean, my best season by far after reading this book, and there are other factors that played into it. Hey. Real quick, you know, one of the cool parts about what we're doing is that people have reached out and told me that they've built actual million dollar businesses, made their first million. Often idea they heard on the show. That is crazy. That's wild. That's why we wanna do the show. And we wanna see more of that. One of the questions we get asked over and over again is, is there kind of idea, database, or spreadsheet, where we list out all the different business ideas that we've talked about. Well, the answer is finally yes. To find folks at HubSpot have dug through the archive and pulled out fifty plus business ideas and put them into a business idea database. It's totally free. You click the link in the description below and get the database for you. Alright. Now back to the show. In terms of ideal performance states, I I've become less

In in what I was doing. So I had a I had a fantastic I mean, my best season by far after reading this book, and there are other factors that played into it. Hey. Real quick, you know, one of the cool parts about what we're doing is that people have reached out and told me that they've built actual million dollar businesses, made their first million. Often idea they heard on the show. That is crazy. That's wild. That's why we wanna do the show. And we wanna see more of that. One of the questions we get asked over and over again is, is there kind of idea, database, or spreadsheet, where we list out all the different business ideas that we've talked about. Well, the answer is finally yes. To find folks at HubSpot have dug through the archive and pulled out fifty plus business ideas and put them into a business idea database. It's totally free. You click the link in the description below and get the database for you. Alright. Now back to the show. In terms of ideal performance states, I I've become less

15:55

focused on optimization.

focused on optimization.

15:57

Right. Overall, I would say just because so much of it just does not fucking matter at all.

Right. Overall, I would say just because so much of it just does not fucking matter at all.

16:03

And the amount of Breaking news. Tim Ferris. Optimization.

And the amount of Breaking news. Tim Ferris. Optimization.

16:07

Yeah. I mean, there's a place for it. Who needs it? There's a place for it. There's a place for it, but it's, like,

Yeah. I mean, there's a place for it. Who needs it? There's a place for it. There's a place for it, but it's, like,

16:13

Are you taking a taxi from the the the start to the finish line of a marathon? Because it's efficient. I mean, like,

Are you taking a taxi from the the the start to the finish line of a marathon? Because it's efficient. I mean, like,

16:19

yeah, speed reading poetry,

yeah, speed reading poetry,

16:21

Right. Like there's there's a there's a this was a cult of optimization that is appealing on a lot of levels, but

Right. Like there's there's a there's a this was a cult of optimization that is appealing on a lot of levels, but

16:29

it ends up being a hammer looking for nails, and it gets applied to everything. And I think that

it ends up being a hammer looking for nails, and it gets applied to everything. And I think that

16:33

that misses the forest for the trees sometimes.

that misses the forest for the trees sometimes.

16:36

And I've been guilty of that for sure. So it but in terms of optimization,

And I've been guilty of that for sure. So it but in terms of optimization,

16:41

I would say that

I would say that

16:43

let's take today. As an example.

let's take today. As an example.

16:45

So I had a great day today. Today was pretty uncrowded.

So I had a great day today. Today was pretty uncrowded.

16:50

I had a few team calls meaning employee calls earlier today.

I had a few team calls meaning employee calls earlier today.

16:55

Typically, those are on Tuesday, but it got shifted forward because I was traveling yesterday.

Typically, those are on Tuesday, but it got shifted forward because I was traveling yesterday.

17:00

Beautiful day outside here in Austin, which helps, of course, went for a walk,

Beautiful day outside here in Austin, which helps, of course, went for a walk,

17:04

got a cold brew coffee,

got a cold brew coffee,

17:07

had a phone call with a friend,

had a phone call with a friend,

17:09

came back, did a bit of work, knocked off few emails or a couple of pending angel investments and deals of that type, and I had to get back to some lawyers and so on. That took fifteen, twenty minutes, printed out some documents prepared for podcasts that I recorded earlier today, and then did

came back, did a bit of work, knocked off few emails or a couple of pending angel investments and deals of that type, and I had to get back to some lawyers and so on. That took fifteen, twenty minutes, printed out some documents prepared for podcasts that I recorded earlier today, and then did

17:23

a

a

17:28

seven minute. I guess it was about a seven minute cold plunge at forty degrees, which is pretty chilly.

seven minute. I guess it was about a seven minute cold plunge at forty degrees, which is pretty chilly.

17:35

Yeah. That'll

Yeah. That'll

17:36

that'll wake you up.

that'll wake you up.

17:38

And I use that in part because I knew that we would be recording this late and I didn't wanna consume too much caffeine early in the day and then consume way too much caffeine throughout the day and end up not being able to sleep since we're recording this at night. And

And I use that in part because I knew that we would be recording this late and I didn't wanna consume too much caffeine early in the day and then consume way too much caffeine throughout the day and end up not being able to sleep since we're recording this at night. And

17:53

also then

also then

17:54

had a little bit of titration with, like, a light green tea before recording my own podcast

had a little bit of titration with, like, a light green tea before recording my own podcast

17:59

after walking a bit.

after walking a bit.

18:01

Had some synthetic ketones,

Had some synthetic ketones,

18:03

so beta hydroxybutyrate,

so beta hydroxybutyrate,

18:05

which does help cognitive performance quite a bit. So it can act as a stand in for me.

which does help cognitive performance quite a bit. So it can act as a stand in for me.

18:10

For more caffeine.

For more caffeine.

18:12

It says a blended. Let's just say, like, tail end of the cold brew, green tea about thirty minutes prior, and then also the synthetic ketones about thirty minutes prior and light meals. So very light meals. If I have a lot of mental lifting to do, then I I generally eat pretty lightly, mostly protein, a little bit of fat, small amount of carbohydrate.

It says a blended. Let's just say, like, tail end of the cold brew, green tea about thirty minutes prior, and then also the synthetic ketones about thirty minutes prior and light meals. So very light meals. If I have a lot of mental lifting to do, then I I generally eat pretty lightly, mostly protein, a little bit of fat, small amount of carbohydrate.

18:34

And

And

18:35

Here we are. That's the day. Right? I got a great night's sleep last night, which isn't always the case, but was the case last night.

Here we are. That's the day. Right? I got a great night's sleep last night, which isn't always the case, but was the case last night.

18:42

And for me,

And for me,

18:44

that is an optimized day. There's not a lot crammed into it.

that is an optimized day. There's not a lot crammed into it.

18:47

I'm not

I'm not

18:50

executing this sophisticated

executing this sophisticated

18:52

time management Tetris to be as efficient as possible.

time management Tetris to be as efficient as possible.

18:56

But I'm keeping the main thing, the main thing. Like, the main things were

But I'm keeping the main thing, the main thing. Like, the main things were

19:03

team one on one calls

team one on one calls

19:06

being physiologically

being physiologically

19:08

and

and

19:09

just literally, I guess, prepared in terms of documentation research for podcasts that I recorded and then being in a good state

just literally, I guess, prepared in terms of documentation research for podcasts that I recorded and then being in a good state

19:17

for

for

19:18

having this conversation.

having this conversation.

19:19

That's it. Right. It's like you don't have to do a lot every day. Yeah. I think that's

That's it. Right. It's like you don't have to do a lot every day. Yeah. I think that's

19:24

effect for sufficiency. Right? Effective over efficiency. Efficiency would be more like

effect for sufficiency. Right? Effective over efficiency. Efficiency would be more like

19:29

maximum

maximum

19:30

output per unit of time regardless on what the output is directed towards. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. It's if you think of effectiveness as what you do,

output per unit of time regardless on what the output is directed towards. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. It's if you think of effectiveness as what you do,

19:39

affect, efficiencies,

affect, efficiencies,

19:41

how you do any given thing. But doing something really well doesn't make it important. So

how you do any given thing. But doing something really well doesn't make it important. So

19:46

Yeah. I'm a Tony Robbins guy. He calls it a majoring and minor things.

Yeah. I'm a Tony Robbins guy. He calls it a majoring and minor things.

19:50

Yeah. Majoring in minor things. Not a great way to go. Yeah.

Yeah. Majoring in minor things. Not a great way to go. Yeah.

19:53

And I also fritter away time and

And I also fritter away time and

19:56

lose days to bullshit or I don't sleep well. And I'm grumpy and I have too much caffeine and then I have a shitty night's sleep like, I I suffer from all that stuff.

lose days to bullshit or I don't sleep well. And I'm grumpy and I have too much caffeine and then I have a shitty night's sleep like, I I suffer from all that stuff.

20:04

Yeah. Human. I make mistakes. But if you're thinking about

Yeah. Human. I make mistakes. But if you're thinking about

20:09

projects as experiments

projects as experiments

20:11

using the criteria that I laid out before,

using the criteria that I laid out before,

20:15

and you're doing your best you're gonna falter, you're gonna make mistakes, but to keep the main thing the main thing, and you have a good rationale for why that main thing is the main thing. Over time you tend to,

and you're doing your best you're gonna falter, you're gonna make mistakes, but to keep the main thing the main thing, and you have a good rationale for why that main thing is the main thing. Over time you tend to,

20:24

you tend to perform pretty well

you tend to perform pretty well

20:27

and

and

20:28

just ship a lot more than most people. Even if you go a month without doing,

just ship a lot more than most people. Even if you go a month without doing,

20:34

anything. Right? And if you get it fuck all done for a month,

anything. Right? And if you get it fuck all done for a month,

20:37

sometimes it happens to me. But I I try. I would

sometimes it happens to me. But I I try. I would

20:42

almost rather do that. And I guess my version of doing fuck all might not look like fuck all, but

almost rather do that. And I guess my version of doing fuck all might not look like fuck all, but

20:49

I would rather do that than rush into committing to something that doesn't meet my criteria

I would rather do that than rush into committing to something that doesn't meet my criteria

20:55

because I'm uncomfortable.

because I'm uncomfortable.

20:58

Not being busy. Right.

Not being busy. Right.

21:00

Because that's how you end up

Because that's how you end up

21:02

over committing to things that longitudinally eat up

over committing to things that longitudinally eat up

21:07

years. You said you're comfortable not being busy.

years. You said you're comfortable not being busy.

21:10

Yeah. Yeah. That's a big one.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a big one.

21:13

Yeah. Just, I mean, the, like,

Yeah. Just, I mean, the, like,

21:15

The best way to get what the outcome of busyness should be, which is, right, like, big

The best way to get what the outcome of busyness should be, which is, right, like, big

21:24

effects of some time or it could just be more joy, whatever

effects of some time or it could just be more joy, whatever

21:27

is is not by engaging in nonstop action. Alright? It's by

is is not by engaging in nonstop action. Alright? It's by

21:33

In a sense, it's similar to my my my startup investing. It's like having a very tight very tight parameters.

In a sense, it's similar to my my my startup investing. It's like having a very tight very tight parameters.

21:40

A lot of constraints and

A lot of constraints and

21:42

not breaking your rules.

not breaking your rules.

21:44

Right? It's like the equivalent of like blowing your bankroll in poker blackjack or in startup investing would be you have

Right? It's like the equivalent of like blowing your bankroll in poker blackjack or in startup investing would be you have

21:51

no

no

21:52

You have no real thinking around portfolio constructions.

You have no real thinking around portfolio constructions.

21:56

You you don't have enough positive constraints. So you get over enthused about a ton of things

You you don't have enough positive constraints. So you get over enthused about a ton of things

22:02

you

you

22:03

put out all these bets too quickly and then you lose all your money.

put out all these bets too quickly and then you lose all your money.

22:07

Or you just can't play the game very long because you were never playing the long game to begin with.

Or you just can't play the game very long because you were never playing the long game to begin with.

22:11

And

And

22:12

in

in

22:13

life, like that bankroll is your time.

life, like that bankroll is your time.

22:16

And,

And,

22:18

that's nonrenewable. You don't always make more money. I've heard you say something like,

that's nonrenewable. You don't always make more money. I've heard you say something like,

22:22

people who are on twenty four seven or they're just like hustle hustle hustle grind grind grind,

people who are on twenty four seven or they're just like hustle hustle hustle grind grind grind,

22:27

you you're like, that's actually a dangerous form of laziness.

you you're like, that's actually a dangerous form of laziness.

22:30

Yeah. Yeah. I've got indiscriminate action.

Yeah. Yeah. I've got indiscriminate action.

22:33

Indiscriminate

Indiscriminate

22:34

action. It was a form of laziness. Yeah. When people are like, I need to do x and then, like, first, I'm gonna do research or make a long list. It's like, that's fancy procrastination.

action. It was a form of laziness. Yeah. When people are like, I need to do x and then, like, first, I'm gonna do research or make a long list. It's like, that's fancy procrastination.

22:42

Like,

Like,

22:43

shouldn't you just you don't need a list of a hundred just call one. Let's start with that. Yeah. Yeah. And we all have our our our favorite pet forms of procrastination,

shouldn't you just you don't need a list of a hundred just call one. Let's start with that. Yeah. Yeah. And we all have our our our favorite pet forms of procrastination,

22:52

like reading is one of mine. Right? I have to be very cautious about read

like reading is one of mine. Right? I have to be very cautious about read

22:56

love reading, and no one's gonna say he should stop reading. Yeah. They're the big, oh, so diligent doing so much homework, but

love reading, and no one's gonna say he should stop reading. Yeah. They're the big, oh, so diligent doing so much homework, but

23:03

sophisticated he is. Oh, yeah. So sophisticated.

sophisticated he is. Oh, yeah. So sophisticated.

23:06

I wanna ask you about your book thing in a second, but before we do that, t you said teaching. Teach me about the art of podcasting. You've been doing this for ten years now. Yeah. You've

I wanna ask you about your book thing in a second, but before we do that, t you said teaching. Teach me about the art of podcasting. You've been doing this for ten years now. Yeah. You've

23:16

done many a high stakes interview, whether it's pick your favorite famous person or be the person you admire.

done many a high stakes interview, whether it's pick your favorite famous person or be the person you admire.

23:22

What

What

23:23

can you teach me about the first five minutes of a podcast?

can you teach me about the first five minutes of a podcast?

23:27

First five minutes. Maybe five seconds. I don't know. Yeah. Beginning of a podcast. Yeah. I mean, the most important five minutes are the conversation I have before I start recording with someone.

First five minutes. Maybe five seconds. I don't know. Yeah. Beginning of a podcast. Yeah. I mean, the most important five minutes are the conversation I have before I start recording with someone.

23:37

Okay. So

Okay. So

23:38

that would be

that would be

23:41

putting them at ease to the extent possible.

putting them at ease to the extent possible.

23:43

Alright? My job is to make you look as good as possible. Every guest is final cut. Mhmm.

Alright? My job is to make you look as good as possible. Every guest is final cut. Mhmm.

23:49

So

So

23:50

let it all hang out and we can cut whatever you wanna cut. You'll get a transcript. Nothing's gonna get published.

let it all hang out and we can cut whatever you wanna cut. You'll get a transcript. Nothing's gonna get published.

23:56

Before you give it the okay.

Before you give it the okay.

23:58

Put the walls down a little bit. Yeah. Put the walls down general housekeeping

Put the walls down a little bit. Yeah. Put the walls down general housekeeping

24:02

so they don't get distracted. Like, if you need to take water break, bathroom break,

so they don't get distracted. Like, if you need to take water break, bathroom break,

24:06

pause, stop. You wanna start a story over again.

pause, stop. You wanna start a story over again.

24:10

That's all totally fine. I'll keep an eye out for things that I think we might wanna cut. Like, if you mentioned your kid's names or something like that. So, like, oh, this guy's a done a lot, b is actually looking out for me.

That's all totally fine. I'll keep an eye out for things that I think we might wanna cut. Like, if you mentioned your kid's names or something like that. So, like, oh, this guy's a done a lot, b is actually looking out for me.

24:23

See

See

24:24

has actually sat in my seat interviewee seat a lot. And I always ask and like nobody almost nobody asks

has actually sat in my seat interviewee seat a lot. And I always ask and like nobody almost nobody asks

24:32

this It's such an easy layup in terms of differentiating yourself. Ask interviewees, what what a success would be, like, what would you look at back at this. I asked my inter interviewee this this morning about this. I said six months from now you look back and you say, I'm so glad I did that.

this It's such an easy layup in terms of differentiating yourself. Ask interviewees, what what a success would be, like, what would you look at back at this. I asked my inter interviewee this this morning about this. I said six months from now you look back and you say, I'm so glad I did that.

24:50

Why? Like, what does success look like?

Why? Like, what does success look like?

24:53

And

And

24:54

even if they don't have an answer, they're so unaccustomed to being asked anything like that. They're like, and

even if they don't have an answer, they're so unaccustomed to being asked anything like that. They're like, and

25:00

It's like being a good boyfriend. It's like he cares. It doesn't matter if he probably the water, I it doesn't even I could have got the water myself, but the fact that he did, he's thinking about me. He cares. Yeah. So there I would say that

It's like being a good boyfriend. It's like he cares. It doesn't matter if he probably the water, I it doesn't even I could have got the water myself, but the fact that he did, he's thinking about me. He cares. Yeah. So there I would say that

25:11

that pre record conversation

that pre record conversation

25:15

is something I don't see very often.

is something I don't see very often.

25:17

Riley when I get I didn't do it today. Well, yeah. I mean, and and and sometimes that's fine. Right? It's like I'm

Riley when I get I didn't do it today. Well, yeah. I mean, and and and sometimes that's fine. Right? It's like I'm

25:23

comfortable in this environment. Right.

comfortable in this environment. Right.

25:26

And we've had contact before. Yeah. But

And we've had contact before. Yeah. But

25:29

it's not always going to be the case.

it's not always going to be the case.

25:31

It could also be the the case that somebody's very experienced,

It could also be the the case that somebody's very experienced,

25:36

but they're rushed. Right? They got in, like, an argument with their husband or wife

but they're rushed. Right? They got in, like, an argument with their husband or wife

25:39

the night before and their publicist is

the night before and their publicist is

25:42

frazzled and off their meds or whatever and they're just running from thing to thing to thing and then boom, they get plopped in front of a mic or they get plopped in front of a computer and they're like, okay. Go. Yeah. You're talking to this guy named Tim.

frazzled and off their meds or whatever and they're just running from thing to thing to thing and then boom, they get plopped in front of a mic or they get plopped in front of a computer and they're like, okay. Go. Yeah. You're talking to this guy named Tim.

25:54

Okay. You need to give them

Okay. You need to give them

25:56

an on ramp if you can.

an on ramp if you can.

25:58

To decompress a little bit from that experience. Doesn't always work, but it's

To decompress a little bit from that experience. Doesn't always work, but it's

26:03

it's worth the investment in my experience. So that's

it's worth the investment in my experience. So that's

26:07

Even if I have to give up five, ten minutes of the interview. Right? Let's just say they have a hard stop at ninety minutes or sixty minutes. I will still give up that time. So that's

Even if I have to give up five, ten minutes of the interview. Right? Let's just say they have a hard stop at ninety minutes or sixty minutes. I will still give up that time. So that's

26:18

that's one. In the first five minutes, I would say it depends a lot on the

that's one. In the first five minutes, I would say it depends a lot on the

26:24

the profile

the profile

26:25

of the person. And I don't mean fame. I mean, have they been interviewed a thousand times?

of the person. And I don't mean fame. I mean, have they been interviewed a thousand times?

26:32

In a case where someone's been interviewed a thousand times, I want to ask them a question that shows I've done an inordinate amount of research. Right?

In a case where someone's been interviewed a thousand times, I want to ask them a question that shows I've done an inordinate amount of research. Right?

26:39

So I'll ask them something that,

So I'll ask them something that,

26:42

for instance, I'll very frequently dig up. Like a deep cut. I've noticed I do this. Yes. Third grade teacher or

for instance, I'll very frequently dig up. Like a deep cut. I've noticed I do this. Yes. Third grade teacher or

26:49

a mentor that helped them when they were at one school when they were transitioning from one place to

a mentor that helped them when they were at one school when they were transitioning from one place to

26:53

another.

another.

26:56

That got mentioned in passing in a profile in the New Yorker eight years ago. I'm like,

That got mentioned in passing in a profile in the New Yorker eight years ago. I'm like,

27:02

who was so and so? Right.

who was so and so? Right.

27:04

Tell me about so and so. And they're like,

Tell me about so and so. And they're like,

27:07

okay.

okay.

27:09

And

And

27:10

that can get them off of autopilot.

that can get them off of autopilot.

27:12

Whether someone's been interviewed a lot or very little, I will often ask them beforehand.

Whether someone's been interviewed a lot or very little, I will often ask them beforehand.

27:18

Like, there's a lot of prep that goes into it.

Like, there's a lot of prep that goes into it.

27:22

If there are any greatest hits, stories in the bank,

If there are any greatest hits, stories in the bank,

27:26

what are stories people respond really well to that stick with them that people have brought up with you

what are stories people respond really well to that stick with them that people have brought up with you

27:32

a year later, two years later.

a year later, two years later.

27:34

And they could be an academic friend. I can almost talk to people. Just not necessarily Tony Robbins or Edward Norton, but they're in front of people. So they'll they should have probably some examples. Or anecdotes or studies, things that really stick with people. Okay. Great.

And they could be an academic friend. I can almost talk to people. Just not necessarily Tony Robbins or Edward Norton, but they're in front of people. So they'll they should have probably some examples. Or anecdotes or studies, things that really stick with people. Okay. Great.

27:50

And I will then figure out question or a cue, or I might even ask them to suggest one, to prompt talking about that. And I will lead with that for two reasons. First is that I'm starting with something that my audience is likely to resonate with. Number two, I'm giving them a win. Right. Fastball. I'm giving them a win upfront.

And I will then figure out question or a cue, or I might even ask them to suggest one, to prompt talking about that. And I will lead with that for two reasons. First is that I'm starting with something that my audience is likely to resonate with. Number two, I'm giving them a win. Right. Fastball. I'm giving them a win upfront.

28:08

And

And

28:10

that is helpful oftentimes

that is helpful oftentimes

28:12

when someone doesn't know

when someone doesn't know

28:14

where the conversation's gonna go. To that point, I always try to tell people

where the conversation's gonna go. To that point, I always try to tell people

28:18

where I am likely to start. And that's part of the pre conversation. I'll say I'm thinking about starting with this. Right. So I don't want to cause anyone to stumble out of the gate.

where I am likely to start. And that's part of the pre conversation. I'll say I'm thinking about starting with this. Right. So I don't want to cause anyone to stumble out of the gate.

28:28

Or for us to get caught on our heels. This is probably where I'm gonna start. Do you think that's a decent place to start? And if they're like, well, I don't know if, like, some random thing I read on the internet that isn't true, I wanna know that before we start.

Or for us to get caught on our heels. This is probably where I'm gonna start. Do you think that's a decent place to start? And if they're like, well, I don't know if, like, some random thing I read on the internet that isn't true, I wanna know that before we start.

28:40

And if they're like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That'll work. Great. Now I've planted that seed. Their brains working on that while we're doing the house while we're talking about everything else, and then we start and it's usually

And if they're like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That'll work. Great. Now I've planted that seed. Their brains working on that while we're doing the house while we're talking about everything else, and then we start and it's usually

28:50

pretty smooth.

pretty smooth.

28:51

At least, you know, running out of the blocks.

At least, you know, running out of the blocks.

28:55

So those would be a few things that come to mind for the first five minutes. That's a great answer. Very helpful to me because we usually do the show. It's me and Sam. Yeah. And it's that's the core of the show is me and Sam hanging out. And our dynamic is very simple. It's,

So those would be a few things that come to mind for the first five minutes. That's a great answer. Very helpful to me because we usually do the show. It's me and Sam. Yeah. And it's that's the core of the show is me and Sam hanging out. And our dynamic is very simple. It's,

29:08

due to this. There's there's like a random show. Like, you do the random show, we do our it's that's very much like the core of our show. And we usually, if we have guests on, it's because we want them to do that with us. Yeah. But then occasionally there's guests where,

due to this. There's there's like a random show. Like, you do the random show, we do our it's that's very much like the core of our show. And we usually, if we have guests on, it's because we want them to do that with us. Yeah. But then occasionally there's guests where,

29:21

actually,

actually,

29:22

it's scratching her own itch. I want I really wanna meet this person. I'm gonna get to what they're really like, and I wanna ask them the questions that I don't feel like I've heard from them in the same way that, like, some people say you should write the book. You you wish you could just read. You wish you could read. If somebody else have written it, you wouldn't write the book. That's the way I feel about when I do an interview like this. It's like, what is the question that

it's scratching her own itch. I want I really wanna meet this person. I'm gonna get to what they're really like, and I wanna ask them the questions that I don't feel like I've heard from them in the same way that, like, some people say you should write the book. You you wish you could just read. You wish you could read. If somebody else have written it, you wouldn't write the book. That's the way I feel about when I do an interview like this. It's like, what is the question that

29:40

I haven't heard in addition to the greatest hits? Cause you'd wanna, you know, explore those a little bit together as And it also depends on what you mean by good podcast. Right? So

I haven't heard in addition to the greatest hits? Cause you'd wanna, you know, explore those a little bit together as And it also depends on what you mean by good podcast. Right? So

29:49

there's good for you or me personally, and then there is good for the audience. Whatever the audience is, right, depending on the show.

there's good for you or me personally, and then there is good for the audience. Whatever the audience is, right, depending on the show.

29:56

And,

And,

29:58

I've gone back and forth on that. Right? So sometimes I'll do a show for the audience.

I've gone back and forth on that. Right? So sometimes I'll do a show for the audience.

30:03

Every once in a while. Right? I'll have a couple of scooby snacks for myself,

Every once in a while. Right? I'll have a couple of scooby snacks for myself,

30:07

but I'll do something that is is really for the audience.

but I'll do something that is is really for the audience.

30:11

That is a risky

That is a risky

30:12

approach.

approach.

30:14

Seems safer, but it's actually probably riskier. You can get shaped by your audience and then become a bit of a

Seems safer, but it's actually probably riskier. You can get shaped by your audience and then become a bit of a

30:22

like, domesticated

like, domesticated

30:23

oxen getting driven by what you perceive to be the preferences

oxen getting driven by what you perceive to be the preferences

30:28

of your audience, but

of your audience, but

30:29

I have the Henry Ford Maxim in mind, which is,

I have the Henry Ford Maxim in mind, which is,

30:33

and I'm paraphrasing here. But effectively, people don't really know what they want or need.

and I'm paraphrasing here. But effectively, people don't really know what they want or need.

30:37

Which includes you and me. Mhmm. By the way, but for that reason rather than playing the speculation game, follow your own interest And the the risk there is that you end up playing inside baseball and really doing something that is

Which includes you and me. Mhmm. By the way, but for that reason rather than playing the speculation game, follow your own interest And the the risk there is that you end up playing inside baseball and really doing something that is

30:51

not necessarily transferable to your audience.

not necessarily transferable to your audience.

30:54

As far as I'm concerned, and maybe I just have the luxury of being an relatively early mover in podcasting, but

As far as I'm concerned, and maybe I just have the luxury of being an relatively early mover in podcasting, but

31:02

If your goal is to do this for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of episodes,

If your goal is to do this for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of episodes,

31:06

or that's not the goal at all. But if you're if your goal is to continue

or that's not the goal at all. But if you're if your goal is to continue

31:10

to continuing to have this amazing, ridiculous

to continuing to have this amazing, ridiculous

31:13

job,

job,

31:15

which is just absurd. Like, this is a job.

which is just absurd. Like, this is a job.

31:19

Then you gotta play the long game. And part of the long game is,

Then you gotta play the long game. And part of the long game is,

31:23

right, it's like training and recovery. So if you need to take a couple episodes as recovery that are purely

right, it's like training and recovery. So if you need to take a couple episodes as recovery that are purely

31:30

self interested just for you. That's what you do. And I don't have any compunction about that.

self interested just for you. That's what you do. And I don't have any compunction about that.

31:36

And the personal is the most universal also. So if

And the personal is the most universal also. So if

31:42

depends on your audience size, of course, but with with the size of my audience, if something is bothering me, if something is really peaking my curiosity,

depends on your audience size, of course, but with with the size of my audience, if something is bothering me, if something is really peaking my curiosity,

31:51

if something's in my head at night and just won't go away, chances are they're at least

if something's in my head at night and just won't go away, chances are they're at least

31:58

I don't know.

I don't know.

31:59

Few thousand, few tens of thousands of people, who have the same thing going on. Right. I heard this great quote from my buddy. How much has the world benefited that Tim Ferris decided

Few thousand, few tens of thousands of people, who have the same thing going on. Right. I heard this great quote from my buddy. How much has the world benefited that Tim Ferris decided

32:08

not to just keep selling supplements and to do, like, to do other things. Like, What would the world have been, like, had that not happened? I think that's a That's very. It's a great compliment. Yeah. A very huge compliment. Very kind. If you go from selling supplements, which makes a lot of money. It's like a very clear direct payoff and you could do good at it to

not to just keep selling supplements and to do, like, to do other things. Like, What would the world have been, like, had that not happened? I think that's a That's very. It's a great compliment. Yeah. A very huge compliment. Very kind. If you go from selling supplements, which makes a lot of money. It's like a very clear direct payoff and you could do good at it to

32:25

being an author. That's you know, not usually a good it's not usually an upward career move. Let's say. So why'd you do it?

being an author. That's you know, not usually a good it's not usually an upward career move. Let's say. So why'd you do it?

32:32

But there there are a few things, I would say. So the first is that

But there there are a few things, I would say. So the first is that

32:35

I didn't end up selling the supplement company until two thousand nine.

I didn't end up selling the supplement company until two thousand nine.

32:39

So whenever possible, I have things running in parallel.

So whenever possible, I have things running in parallel.

32:43

I do not view myself as a risk taker.

I do not view myself as a risk taker.

32:46

Like, if anything, I would be a producer, risk producer, like risk mitigator. For sure.

Like, if anything, I would be a producer, risk producer, like risk mitigator. For sure.

32:51

Like, I'm very good at capping downside risk.

Like, I'm very good at capping downside risk.

32:54

And

And

32:56

in this particular case,

in this particular case,

32:58

I already knew that

I already knew that

33:00

from a

from a

33:02

from a from an intellectual perspective. That sounds too pompous, but I'm struggling to find a better modifier.

from a from an intellectual perspective. That sounds too pompous, but I'm struggling to find a better modifier.

33:09

Let me put it a different way. My learning curve with the sports nutrition supplement world had flattened largely. And I understood the basic mechanics. I understood

Let me put it a different way. My learning curve with the sports nutrition supplement world had flattened largely. And I understood the basic mechanics. I understood

33:18

distribution and

distribution and

33:19

it wasn't that interesting to me.

it wasn't that interesting to me.

33:22

And it was also an industry that was and still is marred by a lot of bad behavior. Right.

And it was also an industry that was and still is marred by a lot of bad behavior. Right.

33:28

And unbelievable

And unbelievable

33:30

tactics

tactics

33:31

and in some cases just outright deception. I mean, legal and illegal

and in some cases just outright deception. I mean, legal and illegal

33:37

that I I really struggled being associated with. And if we really flash back and

that I I really struggled being associated with. And if we really flash back and

33:47

look at what I thought I might end up doing as an adult. I always wanted to be a teacher in part because I had these amazing teachers that had a huge impact in my life. Kinda saved my life in a bunch of ways. I think I could've gone in a really bad set of directions, and they help prevent that. So I thought, when I get enough experience in life, which is not now at that age, twenty nine. But eventually, it'd be really nice to be a teacher and have that kind of impact. So I thought ninth or tenth grade teacher.

look at what I thought I might end up doing as an adult. I always wanted to be a teacher in part because I had these amazing teachers that had a huge impact in my life. Kinda saved my life in a bunch of ways. I think I could've gone in a really bad set of directions, and they help prevent that. So I thought, when I get enough experience in life, which is not now at that age, twenty nine. But eventually, it'd be really nice to be a teacher and have that kind of impact. So I thought ninth or tenth grade teacher.

34:14

Still haven't done that. I mean, I've done some volunteer teaching, but I had been going back

Still haven't done that. I mean, I've done some volunteer teaching, but I had been going back

34:19

I wanna say since two thousand three,

I wanna say since two thousand three,

34:21

to Princeton to teach this guest's lecture. Right? I was invited to come back and speak. I've tried to find these many times, by the way. They're not online. I wish you had uploaded them. Yeah. They're not think I recorded them. Might have recorded one or two. I'm not sure. But if I could find them, I'd be curious to see them. I'm sure I would. Well, I should look kinda correct at that. Right? Like, you basically have to know your lifestyle. Yeah. The notes from that because

to Princeton to teach this guest's lecture. Right? I was invited to come back and speak. I've tried to find these many times, by the way. They're not online. I wish you had uploaded them. Yeah. They're not think I recorded them. Might have recorded one or two. I'm not sure. But if I could find them, I'd be curious to see them. I'm sure I would. Well, I should look kinda correct at that. Right? Like, you basically have to know your lifestyle. Yeah. The notes from that because

34:43

every time I spoke, it was twice a year. It shall the professor, high-tech entrepreneurship, provide me back. Because I had the hair brained idea of doing everything bootstrapped.

every time I spoke, it was twice a year. It shall the professor, high-tech entrepreneurship, provide me back. Because I had the hair brained idea of doing everything bootstrapped.

34:53

And all the other guest speakers had these venture backed companies and

And all the other guest speakers had these venture backed companies and

34:57

some of them were huge.

some of them were huge.

34:58

I was small fries by comparison, but I was doing it my way. I was taking a different approach.

I was small fries by comparison, but I was doing it my way. I was taking a different approach.

35:05

So I came back

So I came back

35:07

and twice a year, a lot happened in my life at that point. I mean, it was trench warfare dog years. Right? It's like if you ask anyone who had the manic depressive experience of being involved with crypto. It's like, what is the last year felt like? They're like seventeen years. And

and twice a year, a lot happened in my life at that point. I mean, it was trench warfare dog years. Right? It's like if you ask anyone who had the manic depressive experience of being involved with crypto. It's like, what is the last year felt like? They're like seventeen years. And

35:23

it's similar, I think, when you're running a company in the early stages. It's like the two months ago. It's like a lifetime. It's like Obama. When he left Oh,

it's similar, I think, when you're running a company in the early stages. It's like the two months ago. It's like a lifetime. It's like Obama. When he left Oh,

35:31

it went from black to gray hair.

it went from black to gray hair.

35:33

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Exactly.

35:34

I mean, look at me, right, no hair. So,

I mean, look at me, right, no hair. So,

35:37

I would say that

I would say that

35:40

that desire

that desire

35:41

to teach

to teach

35:43

and the the positive feedback, really positive feedback. I got from work shopping,

and the the positive feedback, really positive feedback. I got from work shopping,

35:48

the lessons and principles and so on in this class

the lessons and principles and so on in this class

35:51

led me to conclude a few things. Number one, I really enjoy teaching. Number two,

led me to conclude a few things. Number one, I really enjoy teaching. Number two,

35:55

teaching in that format in front of twenty, thirty, forty students didn't scale. And now I think scale can be a dirty word and dangerous and

teaching in that format in front of twenty, thirty, forty students didn't scale. And now I think scale can be a dirty word and dangerous and

36:03

overly seductive for a lot of folks, but it it wasn't going to enable me to reach a lot of people.

overly seductive for a lot of folks, but it it wasn't going to enable me to reach a lot of people.

36:09

And then

And then

36:11

I was done from an identity perspective with the supplements. So looking for something new. And I had, an author friend of mine. This is a

I was done from an identity perspective with the supplements. So looking for something new. And I had, an author friend of mine. This is a

36:20

shortened

shortened

36:22

story that could be really long, but effectively

story that could be really long, but effectively

36:25

say you should write a book and start introducing me to agents and editors even though I didn't want that. Right. Right. I was just looking for feedback, and suddenly I had all these intros. And so I was like, okay. Well,

say you should write a book and start introducing me to agents and editors even though I didn't want that. Right. Right. I was just looking for feedback, and suddenly I had all these intros. And so I was like, okay. Well,

36:36

let me start having these conversations. I'd also, at that point, returned from a year and a half or about a year and a half of this global walkabout, which I chronicle some of in the book. Right? Argentina and this, that, and the other thing. And I came back and I was like, okay.

let me start having these conversations. I'd also, at that point, returned from a year and a half or about a year and a half of this global walkabout, which I chronicle some of in the book. Right? Argentina and this, that, and the other thing. And I came back and I was like, okay.

36:50

What next.

What next.

36:51

Right? I'm not motivated to really

Right? I'm not motivated to really

36:53

go into hyper growth mode with this company.

go into hyper growth mode with this company.

36:57

This isn't gonna be my thing for ten years, twenty years. So what next and that coincided with these intros? You know, the book was eventually

This isn't gonna be my thing for ten years, twenty years. So what next and that coincided with these intros? You know, the book was eventually

37:06

accepted, and there was an offer made, but a lot went into it. Right? Twenty some odd. Twenty six twenty nine rejections from publishers and

accepted, and there was an offer made, but a lot went into it. Right? Twenty some odd. Twenty six twenty nine rejections from publishers and

37:15

So on, but I knew the material worked. Right? I had the confidence because I'd workedhopped it. I with a live crowd, which is over and over and over and over again. I knew it worked. Right. And

So on, but I knew the material worked. Right? I had the confidence because I'd workedhopped it. I with a live crowd, which is over and over and over and over again. I knew it worked. Right. And

37:26

I I frankly love experiments. That's the way I I model my whole life. So

I I frankly love experiments. That's the way I I model my whole life. So

37:31

I viewed the book as an experiment. I was like, at the very least, it's like an MBA. It's like, alright, it's like a

I viewed the book as an experiment. I was like, at the very least, it's like an MBA. It's like, alright, it's like a

37:38

a break from whatever I was doing.

a break from whatever I was doing.

37:40

That looks acceptable, like, on a resume slash, like, for your, kinda, like, career trajectories. It's like, alright. Let me try it. And It's a great mask for unemployed. Right? No. It's great. I'm writing a book. Great. I'm getting an MBA. Yeah. Great mask for unemployed.

That looks acceptable, like, on a resume slash, like, for your, kinda, like, career trajectories. It's like, alright. Let me try it. And It's a great mask for unemployed. Right? No. It's great. I'm writing a book. Great. I'm getting an MBA. Yeah. Great mask for unemployed.

37:54

And

And

37:55

and then everything went bananas.

and then everything went bananas.

37:58

Well, you did the podcast that way too. Right? Experiment. You were like, I'm gonna record. I forgot what the six episodes. And like,

Well, you did the podcast that way too. Right? Experiment. You were like, I'm gonna record. I forgot what the six episodes. And like,

38:03

you you you built yourself a golden bridge Yeah. If you wanted to retreat, you're like, hey, I'm gonna try this. I'll do six. It's either gonna be a wonderful six episode series, or it's gonna be the next thing, but, like, I'm gonna just portion off this experiment versus. Yeah. Give yourself a huge commitment. Yeah. Give yourself a gris flexing. I mean, framing it for yourself, but also to other people, whatever you do as an experiment gives you a graceful exit. Right. It's so simple, but it's such a psychological it's such a strong

you you you built yourself a golden bridge Yeah. If you wanted to retreat, you're like, hey, I'm gonna try this. I'll do six. It's either gonna be a wonderful six episode series, or it's gonna be the next thing, but, like, I'm gonna just portion off this experiment versus. Yeah. Give yourself a huge commitment. Yeah. Give yourself a gris flexing. I mean, framing it for yourself, but also to other people, whatever you do as an experiment gives you a graceful exit. Right. It's so simple, but it's such a psychological it's such a strong

38:32

form of psychological leverage that I think very few people use. Right? They're like, my next thing is this. I'm like,

form of psychological leverage that I think very few people use. Right? They're like, my next thing is this. I'm like,

38:38

oh, totally. I felt that before. I felt that pressure to have an answer? Yeah. I wanna ask you about a different, a couple of your, like, principle, core principles that I have found very useful. I want you to unpack them. One is the law of category.

oh, totally. I felt that before. I felt that pressure to have an answer? Yeah. I wanna ask you about a different, a couple of your, like, principle, core principles that I have found very useful. I want you to unpack them. One is the law of category.

38:52

Mhmm. Can you explain what is the law of category and maybe how you used it?

Mhmm. Can you explain what is the law of category and maybe how you used it?

38:57

Sure. The law of category is is taken directly from a book called the twenty two immutable laws of marketing.

Sure. The law of category is is taken directly from a book called the twenty two immutable laws of marketing.

39:04

The law category

The law category

39:05

in brief is

in brief is

39:09

a description of the power of creating new categories. So rather than trying to be the best

a description of the power of creating new categories. So rather than trying to be the best

39:14

in a crowded category, trying to be the only in a new category, That's where amstel light comes in. Right? The the first light imported beer.

in a crowded category, trying to be the only in a new category, That's where amstel light comes in. Right? The the first light imported beer.

39:23

Okay. There you go.

Okay. There you go.

39:24

Or in the US, let's just say low cost airlines Southwest.

Or in the US, let's just say low cost airlines Southwest.

39:29

Right.

Right.

39:30

And there are a million examples that you could find.

And there are a million examples that you could find.

39:34

The the law of category

The the law of category

39:36

is also

is also

39:38

I would say

I would say

39:39

an encapsulation of

an encapsulation of

39:41

something that might be called the blue ocean strategy versus the red ocean strategy. So there's a book called the the blue ocean strategy I would also recommend.

something that might be called the blue ocean strategy versus the red ocean strategy. So there's a book called the the blue ocean strategy I would also recommend.

39:49

That people

That people

39:51

read in combination

read in combination

39:52

with this chapter

with this chapter

39:54

from

from

39:55

the twenty immutable laws of marketing, the law category. I think I put it in

the twenty immutable laws of marketing, the law category. I think I put it in

39:59

either tools of titans or tribe mentors. I liked it that much. I went to I went through all the brain damage of getting permissions

either tools of titans or tribe mentors. I liked it that much. I went to I went through all the brain damage of getting permissions

40:05

to include it.

to include it.

40:07

And

And

40:08

they those two pair well with an article you can find for free. You can read it in fifteen minutes.

they those two pair well with an article you can find for free. You can read it in fifteen minutes.

40:14

Called one thousand true fans by Kevin Kelly on k k dot org. You can find that.

Called one thousand true fans by Kevin Kelly on k k dot org. You can find that.

40:19

And they're all driving at the same thing, which is

And they're all driving at the same thing, which is

40:22

positioning and differentiation

positioning and differentiation

40:25

and trying to figure

and trying to figure

40:27

out how you can be the first something.

out how you can be the first something.

40:29

Now some sometimes that turns into a bunch of hand wavy smoke and mirrors nonsense like we did, like we discussed

Now some sometimes that turns into a bunch of hand wavy smoke and mirrors nonsense like we did, like we discussed

40:36

earlier.

earlier.

40:37

But at least as an exercise,

But at least as an exercise,

40:40

it's it's worth considering because for instance, one of the questions I was gonna ask you, which you can you can answer or we can just use it as a sample question was

it's it's worth considering because for instance, one of the questions I was gonna ask you, which you can you can answer or we can just use it as a sample question was

40:50

when a diehard fan of your show is talking to someone who does not know the show?

when a diehard fan of your show is talking to someone who does not know the show?

40:55

How would you ideally like them to describe the show?

How would you ideally like them to describe the show?

40:59

Right? And that is a question of positioning.

Right? And that is a question of positioning.

41:01

Because branding, it gets turned into this huge

Because branding, it gets turned into this huge

41:06

process

process

41:07

with flowcharts

with flowcharts

41:08

and tons of agencies and companies and this and that sure. I'm sure there are people who are are are very sophisticated with their approach, but at the end of the day, for me,

and tons of agencies and companies and this and that sure. I'm sure there are people who are are are very sophisticated with their approach, but at the end of the day, for me,

41:16

brand is what people

brand is what people

41:18

consistently

consistently

41:19

associate.

associate.

41:20

X with, x could be you, x could be the show.

X with, x could be you, x could be the show.

41:24

Right? How do they describe it? Right. That's it. That's your brand. I mean, just like a brand. Like, where does the term brand come from? Like, brand on cattle. Right.

Right? How do they describe it? Right. That's it. That's your brand. I mean, just like a brand. Like, where does the term brand come from? Like, brand on cattle. Right.

41:32

So

So

41:33

from that perspective,

from that perspective,

41:35

I I I think it's very useful.

I I I think it's very useful.

41:37

When you're considering doing a new project.

When you're considering doing a new project.

41:41

It's not how can I be the best competing in the same way against people doing the same thing? Yeah. That that is not the frame.

It's not how can I be the best competing in the same way against people doing the same thing? Yeah. That that is not the frame.

41:47

And even if you end up emulating other people or borrowing best practices, I think it makes sense to start

And even if you end up emulating other people or borrowing best practices, I think it makes sense to start

41:55

with

with

41:56

examining the law of category and thinking about

examining the law of category and thinking about

41:59

blue ocean approaches, which is why for instance, with my podcast where

blue ocean approaches, which is why for instance, with my podcast where

42:01

now

now

42:05

at the tenth anniversary.

at the tenth anniversary.

42:07

And

And

42:07

I don't I don't really see a viable path forward for me that is heavily video focused.

I don't I don't really see a viable path forward for me that is heavily video focused.

42:15

Even though I think there are gonna be some significant

Even though I think there are gonna be some significant

42:18

taxes to pay for that. Podcasts have a huge

taxes to pay for that. Podcasts have a huge

42:22

discoverability

discoverability

42:22

problem. Yes. And a huge long term,

problem. Yes. And a huge long term,

42:26

surface ability problem. And

surface ability problem. And

42:31

YouTube

YouTube

42:32

offers a solution in the form of

offers a solution in the form of

42:35

what is it? The second largest

what is it? The second largest

42:37

English language search engine in the world.

English language search engine in the world.

42:40

And I understand why it makes sense for a lot of people to harness that as

And I understand why it makes sense for a lot of people to harness that as

42:48

one engine for growth makes a lot of sense.

one engine for growth makes a lot of sense.

42:51

But

But

42:54

it's crowded. It's really crowded. By anyone's definition, it would be a red ocean, and it's definitely gonna get redder.

it's crowded. It's really crowded. By anyone's definition, it would be a red ocean, and it's definitely gonna get redder.

43:00

And

And

43:02

for that reason,

for that reason,

43:04

maybe I make the decision in six months. You know what?

maybe I make the decision in six months. You know what?

43:07

Fuck it. I'm gonna go whole hog. Let's see what happens. Right. Right?

Fuck it. I'm gonna go whole hog. Let's see what happens. Right. Right?

43:11

But I don't have I don't have a really high degree of enthusiasm for that right now and enthusiasm's important. Right? I'm which means I'm not gonna have the endurance.

But I don't have I don't have a really high degree of enthusiasm for that right now and enthusiasm's important. Right? I'm which means I'm not gonna have the endurance.

43:20

Compared to someone like Chris. Right?

Compared to someone like Chris. Right?

43:23

Williamson of people are like, who is this, Chris? And

Williamson of people are like, who is this, Chris? And

43:28

furthermore, I feel life

furthermore, I feel life

43:30

the threads of life pulling me in other directions. So

the threads of life pulling me in other directions. So

43:34

I'm doing it half ass would be the worst thing I could do. Like doing it six out of ten would consume resources and not be particularly effective. Right.

I'm doing it half ass would be the worst thing I could do. Like doing it six out of ten would consume resources and not be particularly effective. Right.

43:43

So I'm trying to decide if I wanna take a barbell approach.

So I'm trying to decide if I wanna take a barbell approach.

43:47

With podcasting on some level, which I've experimented with. It's like that. What's the barbell approach? All barbell approach could be applied. I mean, is a a term. I I'm borrowing. I don't know if he originated it from not yeah. Nothing Tallab when he talks about investing. Right? I'm like super risky stuff. And then really boring. Let's just say fixed income or S and P five hundred or something. Right? Like super boring stuff

With podcasting on some level, which I've experimented with. It's like that. What's the barbell approach? All barbell approach could be applied. I mean, is a a term. I I'm borrowing. I don't know if he originated it from not yeah. Nothing Tallab when he talks about investing. Right? I'm like super risky stuff. And then really boring. Let's just say fixed income or S and P five hundred or something. Right? Like super boring stuff

44:09

and really risky stuff. Where you have a cap downside, but potentially huge upside in his

and really risky stuff. Where you have a cap downside, but potentially huge upside in his

44:15

set of games. It would probably be some type of, like, black swan option, right, position.

set of games. It would probably be some type of, like, black swan option, right, position.

44:20

And then nothing in between.

And then nothing in between.

44:21

That's it. Right?

That's it. Right?

44:23

And you could apply that to exercise. You could apply that to many different things. As I'm applying it, I would say

And you could apply that to exercise. You could apply that to many different things. As I'm applying it, I would say

44:31

with in the format of podcasting, you would have no video whatsoever.

with in the format of podcasting, you would have no video whatsoever.

44:36

That would be on one end of the spectrum.

That would be on one end of the spectrum.

44:39

And

And

44:39

I've done that. I've experimented with walk and talk. So I have a headset on, and I'm recording with someone and we're talking any exercise, and it's great.

I've done that. I've experimented with walk and talk. So I have a headset on, and I'm recording with someone and we're talking any exercise, and it's great.

44:47

I feel better because I'm not sitting down for three or four hours or whatever the the amount of time might be.

I feel better because I'm not sitting down for three or four hours or whatever the the amount of time might be.

44:53

And

And

44:55

I love it. I love doing it. So I think that there's a possibility doing that

I love it. I love doing it. So I think that there's a possibility doing that

45:00

with a lot of enthusiasm.

with a lot of enthusiasm.

45:02

And joy

And joy

45:04

and curiosity,

and curiosity,

45:06

I might be able to make up for the lack of video with

I might be able to make up for the lack of video with

45:09

those elements

those elements

45:11

And I would probably do higher frequency also, right, because of that.

And I would probably do higher frequency also, right, because of that.

45:15

And then on the opposite of the spectrum, it might actually, for instance, tomorrow, like, we'll have a nice video set up tomorrow. And I have effectively a studio. It's no wrap around immersive avatar LED screen.

And then on the opposite of the spectrum, it might actually, for instance, tomorrow, like, we'll have a nice video set up tomorrow. And I have effectively a studio. It's no wrap around immersive avatar LED screen.

45:30

But it is it's a nice studio setup. It's what used to be considered really nice. It's what you tell. Yeah. We saw the craziness.

But it is it's a nice studio setup. It's what used to be considered really nice. It's what you tell. Yeah. We saw the craziness.

45:37

Yeah. I wouldn't call it cinematic, but it's high quality video. Right?

Yeah. I wouldn't call it cinematic, but it's high quality video. Right?

45:42

And probably shy away from stuff in between.

And probably shy away from stuff in between.

45:46

And

And

45:47

we'll see. Oh, let's see if this barbell principle applies to so much, right, investing. You're talking about it with, project, how I could approach a project,

we'll see. Oh, let's see if this barbell principle applies to so much, right, investing. You're talking about it with, project, how I could approach a project,

45:54

We and Ben have been talking a lot about how we do this with our network. I was like, man, meaning so many people, but, like,

We and Ben have been talking a lot about how we do this with our network. I was like, man, meaning so many people, but, like,

46:00

death by but death by a thousand Zoom calls. Like, I just I'm not gonna do it. Yeah. So what am I gonna not talk to these people? Like, no. And so we decided there's a barbell approach. A bunch of random texts where there's no obligation for either side to reply. It's just like, hey, thinking about you, or hey, check this out. That's it. Quick texts.

death by but death by a thousand Zoom calls. Like, I just I'm not gonna do it. Yeah. So what am I gonna not talk to these people? Like, no. And so we decided there's a barbell approach. A bunch of random texts where there's no obligation for either side to reply. It's just like, hey, thinking about you, or hey, check this out. That's it. Quick texts.

46:17

Spend a half day or full day together. I'm I'll fly to you. Let's have a good time. And we started doing this. And, oh, my god. It's, like, Yeah. I feel like I've cracked the cheat code of the relationship building that that that was otherwise felt very draining and overwhelming.

Spend a half day or full day together. I'm I'll fly to you. Let's have a good time. And we started doing this. And, oh, my god. It's, like, Yeah. I feel like I've cracked the cheat code of the relationship building that that that was otherwise felt very draining and overwhelming.

46:31

Yeah. The the barbell approach can be applied to a lot. I apply it all over the place. An another example would be say speaking engagements

Yeah. The the barbell approach can be applied to a lot. I apply it all over the place. An another example would be say speaking engagements

46:38

where I very rarely do speaking engagements, but it's either free

where I very rarely do speaking engagements, but it's either free

46:43

where I would

where I would

46:44

maybe even pay to be in front of the audience because the event in the audience is so interesting.

maybe even pay to be in front of the audience because the event in the audience is so interesting.

46:49

Could also be a pro bono thing.

Could also be a pro bono thing.

46:51

Or

Or

46:52

ultra premium. Ultra premium high high watermark,

ultra premium. Ultra premium high high watermark,

46:56

like, what whatever company or organization paid me the most I've ever been paid. That's my new minimum. Right. Like whoever

like, what whatever company or organization paid me the most I've ever been paid. That's my new minimum. Right. Like whoever

47:03

is gonna meet or exceed that. Right. That's it. And I will do probably

is gonna meet or exceed that. Right. That's it. And I will do probably

47:08

two to six engagements a year. That's it. You you did this early on. I remember you had like your blog or your I think this is blog days and you did. You were like, everything's free. I'm gonna give everything away for free. I'm not gonna be a kind of online course slinger. Like most people who you get a little bit of falling, it's like, hey, would you like half a million bucks? Would you like a million dollars? You could just sell this course. And then you you were like, I'm either gonna be all free I'm gonna be ultra premium. I remember you did this, like, what's it called? The, opening the kimono. Yeah. Open the kimono. It's, like, a ten thousand dollar thing, but, like, a lot of us were happy you'd be happy to pay that because it's like, oh, man. I've gotten so much free value, and I have the means. And you're like, cool. I only need a small number of people, which might make it a more enjoyable event for me. Was that the kind of calculus there? Yeah. It's free. It's free or ultra premium generally. I mean, that's how I try to approach things also because ultra premium gives you

two to six engagements a year. That's it. You you did this early on. I remember you had like your blog or your I think this is blog days and you did. You were like, everything's free. I'm gonna give everything away for free. I'm not gonna be a kind of online course slinger. Like most people who you get a little bit of falling, it's like, hey, would you like half a million bucks? Would you like a million dollars? You could just sell this course. And then you you were like, I'm either gonna be all free I'm gonna be ultra premium. I remember you did this, like, what's it called? The, opening the kimono. Yeah. Open the kimono. It's, like, a ten thousand dollar thing, but, like, a lot of us were happy you'd be happy to pay that because it's like, oh, man. I've gotten so much free value, and I have the means. And you're like, cool. I only need a small number of people, which might make it a more enjoyable event for me. Was that the kind of calculus there? Yeah. It's free. It's free or ultra premium generally. I mean, that's how I try to approach things also because ultra premium gives you

48:01

a lot more margin for error. So you can afford to experiment. Right? So it's

a lot more margin for error. So you can afford to experiment. Right? So it's

48:06

it's a virtuous

it's a virtuous

48:08

set of conditions that you can set in the beginning.

set of conditions that you can set in the beginning.

48:12

And

And

48:15

it also poses a creative

it also poses a creative

48:17

problem that I enjoy, like

problem that I enjoy, like

48:19

setting the price. I set the price before I figured out the Right.

setting the price. I set the price before I figured out the Right.

48:23

I was like, alright. Let me figure out the price. And then I wanna figure out, and it was it was it wasn't just ten thousand. It was like ten thousand if you applying or accepted in the first, like,

I was like, alright. Let me figure out the price. And then I wanna figure out, and it was it was it wasn't just ten thousand. It was like ten thousand if you applying or accepted in the first, like,

48:34

six hours or something. And then it got more expensive. Gotcha. Then it went to, like, twelve fifty, then it went to fifteen thousand.

six hours or something. And then it got more expensive. Gotcha. Then it went to, like, twelve fifty, then it went to fifteen thousand.

48:42

And then my creative challenge was, okay, how do I

And then my creative challenge was, okay, how do I

48:46

make this event it's a two or three day event.

make this event it's a two or three day event.

48:51

And

And

48:52

I was done more than a decade ago. It was a long time ago. I've only done that one event. As far as paid events goes. Right. And I was like, how do I make this event worth that amount of money? Like, how do I exceed the cost of this event?

I was done more than a decade ago. It was a long time ago. I've only done that one event. As far as paid events goes. Right. And I was like, how do I make this event worth that amount of money? Like, how do I exceed the cost of this event?

49:05

In the first two hours of the event.

In the first two hours of the event.

49:07

And then the rest is just gravy.

And then the rest is just gravy.

49:09

It's a powerful question. That's a great question. Yeah. And that was that was the challenge. And

It's a powerful question. That's a great question. Yeah. And that was that was the challenge. And

49:14

part of the answer was I'm gonna give people my actual

part of the answer was I'm gonna give people my actual

49:17

book proposals for the first two books that lay out everything, like marketing plans, all the nitty gritty, the sales pitch,

book proposals for the first two books that lay out everything, like marketing plans, all the nitty gritty, the sales pitch,

49:25

and all sorts of details because people were there for

and all sorts of details because people were there for

49:30

I guess we would call now content marketing. Right. Right. They wanted to know how to launch books. They wanted to know how I had launched these books. I was like, okay.

I guess we would call now content marketing. Right. Right. They wanted to know how to launch books. They wanted to know how I had launched these books. I was like, okay.

49:37

Let me just skip the skip skip the conceptual overlay.

Let me just skip the skip skip the conceptual overlay.

49:41

I'm just gonna show you exactly what I did. Open the kimono. Cool. Open the kimono. And

I'm just gonna show you exactly what I did. Open the kimono. Cool. Open the kimono. And

49:47

And then I did I did

And then I did I did

49:49

an exercise. This was also to answer that question.

an exercise. This was also to answer that question.

49:53

Very simple.

Very simple.

49:54

Where we had something like a hundred and twenty people. I mean, we had tons of people apply.

Where we had something like a hundred and twenty people. I mean, we had tons of people apply.

49:59

And we were trying to vet for assholes to omit them. Right? So we had questions

And we were trying to vet for assholes to omit them. Right? So we had questions

50:04

that were bear traps for assholes.

that were bear traps for assholes.

50:07

Well, we wanted to make sure I have an audience. I have a very enthusiastic audience. And

Well, we wanted to make sure I have an audience. I have a very enthusiastic audience. And

50:12

The last thing I would want is someone to take out a second mortgage or

The last thing I would want is someone to take out a second mortgage or

50:17

max out their credit cards to come to some event. Right? So first off, it was like,

max out their credit cards to come to some event. Right? So first off, it was like,

50:22

wire transfers only. We're not accepting credit cards. Right. And I had I had but

wire transfers only. We're not accepting credit cards. Right. And I had I had but

50:28

it's gonna sound weird, but, like,

it's gonna sound weird, but, like,

50:31

warning slash lecture

warning slash lecture

50:33

in

in

50:34

text, which is, like, I do not want you to go into debt for this. Right. This has to represent.

text, which is, like, I do not want you to go into debt for this. Right. This has to represent.

50:39

I can't remember what the percentage was, but, like, no more than x percent of your current savings. Right. Excluding your retirement accounts.

I can't remember what the percentage was, but, like, no more than x percent of your current savings. Right. Excluding your retirement accounts.

50:47

You gave him a stern talking to. Yeah. And so I had I had a couple of questions about finances. Right. Because I really didn't want to have

You gave him a stern talking to. Yeah. And so I had I had a couple of questions about finances. Right. Because I really didn't want to have

50:55

the guilt on my conscience of knowing that somebody

the guilt on my conscience of knowing that somebody

50:59

after the fact, you know, after the fact that somebody went into the red or put themselves into a really compromised

after the fact, you know, after the fact that somebody went into the red or put themselves into a really compromised

51:04

position to come to this event. And I do have fans who would do that. I remember one guy in response to one of the finest questions.

position to come to this event. And I do have fans who would do that. I remember one guy in response to one of the finest questions.

51:11

He said,

He said,

51:12

Well, I appreciate you being my financial nanny. But if you wanna and if you wanna come onto the tar rack to look at my jet when I come, you're welcome to. And I was like, and you're out. Yeah. Thanks for that.

Well, I appreciate you being my financial nanny. But if you wanna and if you wanna come onto the tar rack to look at my jet when I come, you're welcome to. And I was like, and you're out. Yeah. Thanks for that.

51:25

You have done exactly. That's the financial qualifier. Yeah. I was like But you failed the second test. I was like, you you fell into the exact bear trap that I was setting for you. Thank you for disqualifying yourself. We do not need you in a small event. Financial Danny is good though. I like that. Yeah. Maybe it's good service. We can have it for people. So so clever. Yeah. Financial danny dot com. So

You have done exactly. That's the financial qualifier. Yeah. I was like But you failed the second test. I was like, you you fell into the exact bear trap that I was setting for you. Thank you for disqualifying yourself. We do not need you in a small event. Financial Danny is good though. I like that. Yeah. Maybe it's good service. We can have it for people. So so clever. Yeah. Financial danny dot com. So

51:45

we had something like hunt let's call it a hundred people. We had a hundred people in the room and there was an attendee book

we had something like hunt let's call it a hundred people. We had a hundred people in the room and there was an attendee book

51:52

with very short bios, maybe not even bios. And I think they're a bios for everybody.

with very short bios, maybe not even bios. And I think they're a bios for everybody.

51:59

And we had every single person stand up in the room. And I was like, this is gonna take a little time, but, like, bear with me, folks. I think this could be interesting. And I'd never done this before, so I didn't know how it was turn gonna turn I said everybody's gonna stand up. They're gonna say their name.

And we had every single person stand up in the room. And I was like, this is gonna take a little time, but, like, bear with me, folks. I think this could be interesting. And I'd never done this before, so I didn't know how it was turn gonna turn I said everybody's gonna stand up. They're gonna say their name.

52:12

They're gonna have a brag.

They're gonna have a brag.

52:15

Which is Give him permission. Yeah. Like, don't give me some fluffy bullshit

Which is Give him permission. Yeah. Like, don't give me some fluffy bullshit

52:19

humble thing. Right. Right? This is not the time or the place. Don't be like, Yeah. I write books sometimes. And it's, like, at ten times, and your time is the best, like, month. I'm like, don't pull that stuff.

humble thing. Right. Right? This is not the time or the place. Don't be like, Yeah. I write books sometimes. And it's, like, at ten times, and your time is the best, like, month. I'm like, don't pull that stuff.

52:29

Get up,

Get up,

52:30

brag, giving you permission. I'm actually giving you a requirement.

brag, giving you permission. I'm actually giving you a requirement.

52:34

Then you have an ask, make an ask of the audience, and then you have a give. It's like something that you're really good at or it could be anything. So get up and it's like a brag

Then you have an ask, make an ask of the audience, and then you have a give. It's like something that you're really good at or it could be anything. So get up and it's like a brag

52:44

and ask a give. And I was like, everyone else

and ask a give. And I was like, everyone else

52:49

is active this whole time. You are listening,

is active this whole time. You are listening,

52:51

and you're writing this stuff down. If somebody has an ask that you can help with write their name down.

and you're writing this stuff down. If somebody has an ask that you can help with write their name down.

52:57

And if there's a give that you want to discuss with someone, write their name down. And

And if there's a give that you want to discuss with someone, write their name down. And

53:03

just doing those few things,

just doing those few things,

53:05

the proposals,

the proposals,

53:06

and then everybody standing up. And, like, by the end of that day, people were like, okay. This is already ten x. Right.

and then everybody standing up. And, like, by the end of that day, people were like, okay. This is already ten x. Right.

53:13

What I spent. This is amazing. And

What I spent. This is amazing. And

53:17

then it was just gravy from there. Yeah. I think the easy thing to gloss over in that,

then it was just gravy from there. Yeah. I think the easy thing to gloss over in that,

53:21

like, Cool. It's a cool story, obviously. But the takeaway for me and for anybody listening is that that question

like, Cool. It's a cool story, obviously. But the takeaway for me and for anybody listening is that that question

53:30

of or the technique of first, I'm gonna set the price.

of or the technique of first, I'm gonna set the price.

53:33

Then I will ask myself how I can overdeliver on that value or deliver in the first two hours

Then I will ask myself how I can overdeliver on that value or deliver in the first two hours

53:38

where that was a no brainer transaction for them to do. Mhmm. That question led you to a such a different result than if you had just said, what event should I do? Yep. Average question.

where that was a no brainer transaction for them to do. Mhmm. That question led you to a such a different result than if you had just said, what event should I do? Yep. Average question.

53:48

Common question.

Common question.

53:50

And I feel like you have a lot of these powerful questions, and you've said something that questions are like a pickaxe for the brain. Yep. It's how you dig the gold out of the brain. And I love that metaphor.

And I feel like you have a lot of these powerful questions, and you've said something that questions are like a pickaxe for the brain. Yep. It's how you dig the gold out of the brain. And I love that metaphor.

54:00

I've I'm a collector of questions. I got a swipe file of, like, a hundred questions, mostly not inter people think it's interview questions. I don't know. These are questions that I need to ask myself Yeah. To get my brain to ask a better question, get a better answer. One of my other favorites of yours is what would this look like if it was easy? Mhmm. Used it today for this interview.

I've I'm a collector of questions. I got a swipe file of, like, a hundred questions, mostly not inter people think it's interview questions. I don't know. These are questions that I need to ask myself Yeah. To get my brain to ask a better question, get a better answer. One of my other favorites of yours is what would this look like if it was easy? Mhmm. Used it today for this interview.

54:19

Great. I gotta do a great interview today. Alright.

Great. I gotta do a great interview today. Alright.

54:22

Oh, man. This game could be difficult. There's so much content. What would this look like if it was easy?

Oh, man. This game could be difficult. There's so much content. What would this look like if it was easy?

54:26

And so what was your answer? What it looked like this was easy is me being genuinely enthusiastic and excited to meet you. You feeling that for me. And

And so what was your answer? What it looked like this was easy is me being genuinely enthusiastic and excited to meet you. You feeling that for me. And

54:35

you walking out of here being like, oh, I actually had an interesting conversation. He didn't just ask me ten questions, but maybe Sean said two or three interesting things that got me got me, like because I know, like, what does Tim want out of a out of an experience? If he learned something, it's probably a good experience. Yeah. Or if he heard one or two provocative things that he might think about later. Mhmm. That's like a useful use of an hour for you. And so I thought, well,

you walking out of here being like, oh, I actually had an interesting conversation. He didn't just ask me ten questions, but maybe Sean said two or three interesting things that got me got me, like because I know, like, what does Tim want out of a out of an experience? If he learned something, it's probably a good experience. Yeah. Or if he heard one or two provocative things that he might think about later. Mhmm. That's like a useful use of an hour for you. And so I thought, well,

54:55

I'm good at that. So let me just, like, not withhold those. Mhmm. Which would be common in a podcast where I'm only gonna ask you questions

I'm good at that. So let me just, like, not withhold those. Mhmm. Which would be common in a podcast where I'm only gonna ask you questions

55:03

myself to make sure that you're at the the time. But in this case, given that you have a platform, you been so vocal in the past. I thought, maybe I'll let myself do that because I think if I give Tim one or two nuggets that are interesting,

myself to make sure that you're at the the time. But in this case, given that you have a platform, you been so vocal in the past. I thought, maybe I'll let myself do that because I think if I give Tim one or two nuggets that are interesting,

55:14

he'll walk out of here feeling like it's a great experience. Yeah. Totally. So what other what what other questions do you have on that list that you use a lot that maybe I haven't heard? Oh, okay. I'll give you a couple of them.

he'll walk out of here feeling like it's a great experience. Yeah. Totally. So what other what what other questions do you have on that list that you use a lot that maybe I haven't heard? Oh, okay. I'll give you a couple of them.

55:24

Am I leaning in to my absolute strengths and unfair advantage as much as I could be? And what this really is is I call it the theoretical max. I had a

Am I leaning in to my absolute strengths and unfair advantage as much as I could be? And what this really is is I call it the theoretical max. I had a

55:33

friend who had an app one time. And his developer or his product managers were saying like, oh, the the response rate on our push notifications is like ten percent. And he's like, Guys, if we just got that to fifteen percent, then, like, the rest of our funnel looks great. And they're like, we we tried a bunch of baby test didn't work. He goes, Go in there right now and just write your Uber is arriving.

friend who had an app one time. And his developer or his product managers were saying like, oh, the the response rate on our push notifications is like ten percent. And he's like, Guys, if we just got that to fifteen percent, then, like, the rest of our funnel looks great. And they're like, we we tried a bunch of baby test didn't work. He goes, Go in there right now and just write your Uber is arriving.

55:53

And then this app was not Uber.

And then this app was not Uber.

55:55

And they sent it out and, like, fifty percent of people. Okay. He goes, that's now the theoretical Don't ever do that again. But, like, don't give me the b s that, like because before that, they were, like, people don't have them on. People just got people are too numb there's too many apps, too many notifications. They had all kinds of stories. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, actually, let me just torch that BS from real quick.

And they sent it out and, like, fifty percent of people. Okay. He goes, that's now the theoretical Don't ever do that again. But, like, don't give me the b s that, like because before that, they were, like, people don't have them on. People just got people are too numb there's too many apps, too many notifications. They had all kinds of stories. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, actually, let me just torch that BS from real quick.

56:14

And so the theoretical max question is, basically,

And so the theoretical max question is, basically,

56:17

we

we

56:19

am I leaning in to my superpower or my unfair advantage

am I leaning in to my superpower or my unfair advantage

56:23

to its theoretical max. And so, like, I'd ask you that. Like, what is your unfair advantage?

to its theoretical max. And so, like, I'd ask you that. Like, what is your unfair advantage?

56:29

I ask that question to myself a lot. I try to edge into it a few different ways. I'll ask friends of mine.

I ask that question to myself a lot. I try to edge into it a few different ways. I'll ask friends of mine.

56:35

When have you seen me at my best?

When have you seen me at my best?

56:38

That's one.

That's one.

56:39

Or what do you see me do that is easier for me than for other people? Right. I think my unfair advantage

Or what do you see me do that is easier for me than for other people? Right. I think my unfair advantage

56:44

is

is

56:52

At this point, I have a lot just in terms of audience and platform and so on, but

At this point, I have a lot just in terms of audience and platform and so on, but

57:00

If we're talking about

If we're talking about

57:05

Just what I can

Just what I can

57:07

take with me. Right? What I can walk out of here with.

take with me. Right? What I can walk out of here with.

57:10

I would say it is

I would say it is

57:15

an ability to ask

an ability to ask

57:18

unusual questions,

unusual questions,

57:20

also ask the dumb questions

also ask the dumb questions

57:23

when I'm trying to learn something

when I'm trying to learn something

57:25

from someone, from a book, from a video, it doesn't matter. I'm always asking these questions, these various questions.

from someone, from a book, from a video, it doesn't matter. I'm always asking these questions, these various questions.

57:32

And then I can take whatever I learn.

And then I can take whatever I learn.

57:36

And

And

57:37

I suppose I could try to deconstruct this, but

I suppose I could try to deconstruct this, but

57:41

I consider myself a fast learner at this point. And if I can get to

I consider myself a fast learner at this point. And if I can get to

57:46

point x in six months,

point x in six months,

57:49

which is gonna be

which is gonna be

57:50

usually pretty

usually pretty

57:53

pretty good. Sometimes super impressive, sometimes not depends on the thing. But overall,

pretty good. Sometimes super impressive, sometimes not depends on the thing. But overall,

57:58

on average, I'm gonna learn things very quickly. Right? Because I have a method at this point.

on average, I'm gonna learn things very quickly. Right? Because I have a method at this point.

58:02

I can if it takes me six months to get to point x, I can get almost anyone to that same point in three months or less. Mhmm.

I can if it takes me six months to get to point x, I can get almost anyone to that same point in three months or less. Mhmm.

58:09

Because I realized I I I also had so many fall starts and I tried so many things. It didn't quite work. I tried a lot of things that were common that turns out should be removed from the learning process entirely.

Because I realized I I I also had so many fall starts and I tried so many things. It didn't quite work. I tried a lot of things that were common that turns out should be removed from the learning process entirely.

58:20

I'd say those

I'd say those

58:23

Those are what come to mind.

Those are what come to mind.

58:25

Yeah. By first reaction, myself, if I was too embarrassed, what would I say? I think my first reaction would be I can get

Yeah. By first reaction, myself, if I was too embarrassed, what would I say? I think my first reaction would be I can get

58:32

First, it was I can get any guest on my podcast

First, it was I can get any guest on my podcast

58:35

really that I want. I mean, every guest is within reach. Mhmm. And I said, well, that doesn't really need to be about the podcast necessarily. Yep. Anybody I wanna talk to is within reach. Yeah. That's interesting. That's not true for most people.

really that I want. I mean, every guest is within reach. Mhmm. And I said, well, that doesn't really need to be about the podcast necessarily. Yep. Anybody I wanna talk to is within reach. Yeah. That's interesting. That's not true for most people.

58:48

And even if you are booking tons of guests or you're meeting cool people, like, you probably aren't at the theoretical max. You're not at the your Uber is arriving level of, like, leading into that superpower. The

And even if you are booking tons of guests or you're meeting cool people, like, you probably aren't at the theoretical max. You're not at the your Uber is arriving level of, like, leading into that superpower. The

58:59

for your reason. Your mom is dead to test theoretical max. Exactly. And so but then even further

for your reason. Your mom is dead to test theoretical max. Exactly. And so but then even further

59:05

is not only can you get in touch with them. Okay. That's easy, but, like, you can go in and you can get people to open up the kimono because your reputation is I'm Tim Ferris. I learned things. I've interviewed people. I deconstruct the things that they're great at. I asked them questions. People will come to you in an interview ready

is not only can you get in touch with them. Okay. That's easy, but, like, you can go in and you can get people to open up the kimono because your reputation is I'm Tim Ferris. I learned things. I've interviewed people. I deconstruct the things that they're great at. I asked them questions. People will come to you in an interview ready

59:21

to open up the component. Yeah. Totally. So that's interesting.

to open up the component. Yeah. Totally. So that's interesting.

59:24

Another interesting thing is, like, you you said you went to go visit the game designer in Europe for three days. That's cool. That's kinda like throwing your weight around into your your unfair advantages. Like, you could probably pick up the phone and if somebody is the best game designer in the world, you could they would be honored to say that of doing various wants to come and learn my stuff for me. Fantastic.

Another interesting thing is, like, you you said you went to go visit the game designer in Europe for three days. That's cool. That's kinda like throwing your weight around into your your unfair advantages. Like, you could probably pick up the phone and if somebody is the best game designer in the world, you could they would be honored to say that of doing various wants to come and learn my stuff for me. Fantastic.

59:40

Please. I'll I'll block I'll block out three days. Yeah. That's cool. And how many more times could you do that? So I would start to to have a little bit of a brainstorm around that. There's another question I find really, really valuable.

Please. I'll I'll block I'll block out three days. Yeah. That's cool. And how many more times could you do that? So I would start to to have a little bit of a brainstorm around that. There's another question I find really, really valuable.

59:50

And that is,

And that is,

59:52

what is

what is

59:53

what is the silly story I'm telling myself?

what is the silly story I'm telling myself?

59:56

And

And

59:57

it immediately

it immediately

59:58

puts you on the defensive because you're like, why would I tell myself a silly story? Mhmm. But we all are constantly telling yourself silly stories.

puts you on the defensive because you're like, why would I tell myself a silly story? Mhmm. But we all are constantly telling yourself silly stories.

01:00:04

Why we can't do this, why that's gonna be hard, why why that's not gonna work for me, why that will take forever, why this person is not responding to my thing. It's because of ABC, the no. Actually, probably not. Right? Mhmm. And so

Why we can't do this, why that's gonna be hard, why why that's not gonna work for me, why that will take forever, why this person is not responding to my thing. It's because of ABC, the no. Actually, probably not. Right? Mhmm. And so

01:00:16

identifying the silly stories, it's like, I'm a Harry Potter guy. I don't know if you read Harry Potter, but, like, there's the Okay. The boggart. Right? The the thing that will present itself as the thing you fear. Mhmm. And the way to get rid of it is the the spell is ridiculous. You make it you basically if you're scared of spiders, you put the spider on skates and then it can't walk, and then it's actually funny instead of scary. The same thing can be done with what are the silly stories in my life? As soon as you start to point them out, it's typically things that You've made real, but when you when you sit down and you interrogate that that story,

identifying the silly stories, it's like, I'm a Harry Potter guy. I don't know if you read Harry Potter, but, like, there's the Okay. The boggart. Right? The the thing that will present itself as the thing you fear. Mhmm. And the way to get rid of it is the the spell is ridiculous. You make it you basically if you're scared of spiders, you put the spider on skates and then it can't walk, and then it's actually funny instead of scary. The same thing can be done with what are the silly stories in my life? As soon as you start to point them out, it's typically things that You've made real, but when you when you sit down and you interrogate that that story,

01:00:45

turns out it was just as fictional as, like, a a easily replaceable story that might be might be for you. And so

turns out it was just as fictional as, like, a a easily replaceable story that might be might be for you. And so

01:00:51

that's one that I ask quite often because

that's one that I ask quite often because

01:00:54

it's the one that I hate.

it's the one that I hate.

01:00:56

It's the question that I hate. That, like, that's a good one. That's the one I need.

It's the question that I hate. That, like, that's a good one. That's the one I need.

01:01:00

Yeah. Yeah. I suppose this.

Yeah. Yeah. I suppose this.

01:01:03

If I could choose one quest and the only question I could ask could probably be some version of that.

If I could choose one quest and the only question I could ask could probably be some version of that.

01:01:09

Yeah. Would you have it in mind? What it would be or no?

Yeah. Would you have it in mind? What it would be or no?

01:01:12

No. I mean, we're just we're constantly, I mean, the

No. I mean, we're just we're constantly, I mean, the

01:01:15

my favorite answer to the question that I ask most guests at some point, what would you put on a billboard? Favorite airship I've ever had was from a hospice care physician named

my favorite answer to the question that I ask most guests at some point, what would you put on a billboard? Favorite airship I've ever had was from a hospice care physician named

01:01:25

BJ Miller who's helped thousands of people to die.

BJ Miller who's helped thousands of people to die.

01:01:29

And help them to die. Help them.

And help them to die. Help them.

01:01:32

Yeah. He didn't euthanize them, but he's

Yeah. He didn't euthanize them, but he's

01:01:34

midwifing them through

midwifing them through

01:01:38

transition to death if they have terminal cancer or something like that. And his answer, he actually

transition to death if they have terminal cancer or something like that. And his answer, he actually

01:01:48

confessed to me. I got from a bumper sticker somewhere, but

confessed to me. I got from a bumper sticker somewhere, but

01:01:51

the the his answer was, don't believe everything you think.

the the his answer was, don't believe everything you think.

01:01:55

That's it. Don't believe everything that you think.

That's it. Don't believe everything that you think.

01:01:58

And, you know, having some method for cross examining those

And, you know, having some method for cross examining those

01:02:03

beliefs, right? These thoughts we take to be true

beliefs, right? These thoughts we take to be true

01:02:07

is

is

01:02:08

is really, really

is really, really

01:02:09

critical.

critical.

01:02:10

So that's a good one. Yeah. I like that. I wanna leave with one thing, which is Naval. Your friends with Naval.

So that's a good one. Yeah. I like that. I wanna leave with one thing, which is Naval. Your friends with Naval.

01:02:16

He's a fascinating guy to me. Never met him in person only chatted online and whatnot. Really respect the guy. Really admire a lot of things about him. Do you have any stories about Naval? Anything that you notice early on or a moment you observe kind of like the wisdom or the the the sort of the insightfulness that that he has.

He's a fascinating guy to me. Never met him in person only chatted online and whatnot. Really respect the guy. Really admire a lot of things about him. Do you have any stories about Naval? Anything that you notice early on or a moment you observe kind of like the wisdom or the the the sort of the insightfulness that that he has.

01:02:32

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:02:33

I love all of my favorite people. He's he's he's

I love all of my favorite people. He's he's he's

01:02:36

very,

very,

01:02:37

very smart

very smart

01:02:39

and hilarious

and hilarious

01:02:41

and does not suffer fools gladly at all.

and does not suffer fools gladly at all.

01:02:46

Which I like. You don't have to guess what Navell is thinking, which I I deeply appreciate.

Which I like. You don't have to guess what Navell is thinking, which I I deeply appreciate.

01:02:52

And

And

01:02:53

the first thing that came to mind

the first thing that came to mind

01:02:55

is probably not the kind of example that you would expect, but it's actually the first time I met of all. It's the first time I met of all.

is probably not the kind of example that you would expect, but it's actually the first time I met of all. It's the first time I met of all.

01:03:02

I went into a coffee shop in the Mission in San Francisco,

I went into a coffee shop in the Mission in San Francisco,

01:03:06

and

and

01:03:07

I ordered a coffee, and I'm waiting at the counter, and there's this very attractive.

I ordered a coffee, and I'm waiting at the counter, and there's this very attractive.

01:03:11

Girl standing next to me. And,

Girl standing next to me. And,

01:03:15

she's very friendly and she smiles and I start talking to her, and I'm kinda chatting her up. You know, hitting on her hoping to ask her for a number and take her out. And who knows? You know, maybe dinner, maybe drink. Who knows? And then

she's very friendly and she smiles and I start talking to her, and I'm kinda chatting her up. You know, hitting on her hoping to ask her for a number and take her out. And who knows? You know, maybe dinner, maybe drink. Who knows? And then

01:03:29

I seen him all walk up with this huge grin on his face. And he's like, I see you met my girlfriend.

I seen him all walk up with this huge grin on his face. And he's like, I see you met my girlfriend.

01:03:37

And I was like, oh,

And I was like, oh,

01:03:39

damn, and he's like Naval. And he just had this huge grin on his face. It was just like Wow. What a good way to dress like? Totally

damn, and he's like Naval. And he just had this huge grin on his face. It was just like Wow. What a good way to dress like? Totally

01:03:46

calm.

calm.

01:03:47

And

And

01:03:48

then we we then we started talking and, like, and we hit it off. And that was probably

then we we then we started talking and, like, and we hit it off. And that was probably

01:03:51

gotten

gotten

01:03:54

I was. I don't know. Two thousand eight or something. Yeah. You're like a man crush, actually. Move out of the way. Yeah. Face

I was. I don't know. Two thousand eight or something. Yeah. You're like a man crush, actually. Move out of the way. Yeah. Face

01:03:59

face palm. Yeah. And

face palm. Yeah. And

01:04:02

and, and that was it. I I I just I admire Nival for his

and, and that was it. I I I just I admire Nival for his

01:04:07

ability to

ability to

01:04:13

speak truth and ask uncomfortable questions, and he doesn't go out of his way to be rude, but he's he's he's

speak truth and ask uncomfortable questions, and he doesn't go out of his way to be rude, but he's he's he's

01:04:21

I think less inclined he is less inclined to the type of people pleasing that I'd say many people

I think less inclined he is less inclined to the type of people pleasing that I'd say many people

01:04:28

are predisposed to. Myself included. Like, there are definitely times when I'm

are predisposed to. Myself included. Like, there are definitely times when I'm

01:04:33

maybe too polite

maybe too polite

01:04:34

or

or

01:04:35

tell white lies to make people feel good or whatever, like, normal human Right. Social lubrication. Right? Nothing major, but it's, like, if, you know, if my girlfriends put on a few pounds, she's like, do I look fat? I'm like, no. You know, like, I'm not gonna say, yeah, you look really fat.

tell white lies to make people feel good or whatever, like, normal human Right. Social lubrication. Right? Nothing major, but it's, like, if, you know, if my girlfriends put on a few pounds, she's like, do I look fat? I'm like, no. You know, like, I'm not gonna say, yeah, you look really fat.

01:04:49

Not to say that Naval would say that.

Not to say that Naval would say that.

01:04:52

But he's

But he's

01:04:53

he's direct in a way that cuts through the noise

he's direct in a way that cuts through the noise

01:04:57

and is very refreshing

and is very refreshing

01:04:59

to me. Have you been able to, pick up or,

to me. Have you been able to, pick up or,

01:05:03

learn anything from them in in terms of whether it's, you know, tactical stuff on the investing side or Tons of stuff on the investing side. I mean, I think the site was way back in the day, venture hacks Oh, yeah. That he and Nivi coauthored

learn anything from them in in terms of whether it's, you know, tactical stuff on the investing side or Tons of stuff on the investing side. I mean, I think the site was way back in the day, venture hacks Oh, yeah. That he and Nivi coauthored

01:05:16

And I mean, that was basically the kind of Wikipedia bible of angel investing and advising for for end.

And I mean, that was basically the kind of Wikipedia bible of angel investing and advising for for end.

01:05:25

Inside game on venture capital.

Inside game on venture capital.

01:05:27

I mean, Naval is

I mean, Naval is

01:05:29

Jedi level when it comes to early stage investing.

Jedi level when it comes to early stage investing.

01:05:33

Very technical.

Very technical.

01:05:35

He just ends up in every deal you would ever want to be in. It's it's like the, you know, the

He just ends up in every deal you would ever want to be in. It's it's like the, you know, the

01:05:41

sort of

sort of

01:05:42

you know, pinky and the brain meets,

you know, pinky and the brain meets,

01:05:44

like, forced gump meets,

like, forced gump meets,

01:05:46

you know, Sid Harta. You're just like,

you know, Sid Harta. You're just like,

01:05:49

How is he in every cap table? Right. He's he's incredibly

How is he in every cap table? Right. He's he's incredibly

01:05:53

skilled as an angel investor.

skilled as an angel investor.

01:05:57

Yeah, we don't even have enough time in the hours and hours and hours of of conversation

Yeah, we don't even have enough time in the hours and hours and hours of of conversation

01:06:03

to even begin to describe what I've learned from him there.

to even begin to describe what I've learned from him there.

01:06:07

And

And

01:06:08

he's very curious. He's very interested, and it's not at all limited to business. So, if

he's very curious. He's very interested, and it's not at all limited to business. So, if

01:06:14

it's you know, David Deutsch or other thinkers. He introduces me to a lot of eclectic thinkers from different disciplines.

it's you know, David Deutsch or other thinkers. He introduces me to a lot of eclectic thinkers from different disciplines.

01:06:22

And

And

01:06:23

his

his

01:06:24

his exploration is certainly not limited.

his exploration is certainly not limited.

01:06:27

As it is with a lot of people,

As it is with a lot of people,

01:06:29

to, say, the sport of business or finance or investing. A lot of people are one trick pony. Is that way? He is not a one trick pony.

to, say, the sport of business or finance or investing. A lot of people are one trick pony. Is that way? He is not a one trick pony.

01:06:37

So I I admire that as well. I have a funny of all story, which is I have a buddy who was doing some, like, when Facebook launched its platform,

So I I admire that as well. I have a funny of all story, which is I have a buddy who was doing some, like, when Facebook launched its platform,

01:06:45

my buddy made it a app. And it was, like, one of the one of the silly apps that I don't remember back then. It was, like, people throwing sheep at each other and stuff like that. He was doing one of the, like, silly apps. It was clear that, oh, Facebook platform, that's like an opportunity and so smart Silicon Valley people were interested.

my buddy made it a app. And it was, like, one of the one of the silly apps that I don't remember back then. It was, like, people throwing sheep at each other and stuff like that. He was doing one of the, like, silly apps. It was clear that, oh, Facebook platform, that's like an opportunity and so smart Silicon Valley people were interested.

01:06:58

My friend sitting in Georgia,

My friend sitting in Georgia,

01:06:59

and Naval's in San Francisco.

and Naval's in San Francisco.

01:07:01

And he gets a email from from Naval, basically, using a phone book contact us page or whatever and was like, hey, I'd love to meet with you sometime, you know, talk about your app. I'm a venture capitalist here in in San Francisco. Friend doesn't know who Divall is, doesn't know what venture capital is, but it's like, okay. Sounds interesting. He's like, oh, yeah. Like, sure, I'd be, you know, I'm open to that. Next email is a plane ticket. Like, here's a plane ticket. It goes out tomorrow.

And he gets a email from from Naval, basically, using a phone book contact us page or whatever and was like, hey, I'd love to meet with you sometime, you know, talk about your app. I'm a venture capitalist here in in San Francisco. Friend doesn't know who Divall is, doesn't know what venture capital is, but it's like, okay. Sounds interesting. He's like, oh, yeah. Like, sure, I'd be, you know, I'm open to that. Next email is a plane ticket. Like, here's a plane ticket. It goes out tomorrow.

01:07:24

So friends, like, okay. Go gets on a plane, flies out here, meets the vault, meets him in his office. Naval asked him. He's like, he asked me questions for, like, thirty minutes.

So friends, like, okay. Go gets on a plane, flies out here, meets the vault, meets him in his office. Naval asked him. He's like, he asked me questions for, like, thirty minutes.

01:07:32

And he's like, I had no idea what the pot what the right answer should have been, but I'm saying whatever's the, my honest answers, And if all was like, hold on, goes into the other room, comes back, has printed out, like, a term sheet and says, like, here, you know, I'll give you whatever, half a million bucks or something, whatever it is, like, some amount of money for some percentage of your company. And my friend who's, like, twenty three or something like that is just, like,

And he's like, I had no idea what the pot what the right answer should have been, but I'm saying whatever's the, my honest answers, And if all was like, hold on, goes into the other room, comes back, has printed out, like, a term sheet and says, like, here, you know, I'll give you whatever, half a million bucks or something, whatever it is, like, some amount of money for some percentage of your company. And my friend who's, like, twenty three or something like that is just, like,

01:07:53

I don't know who this Indian guy is. I don't know what to do. I don't know any of the words on this page.

I don't know who this Indian guy is. I don't know what to do. I don't know any of the words on this page.

01:07:58

My app is stupid. I don't know why he wants to invest in it. I don't really understand this. So he's like, I just don't feel comfortable right now, and he's like, and Naval at the time was like, you know, he's very He's like, I think Facebook is gonna be, you know, huge. I think it's gonna be the platform where you do lots of things. You're not just gonna talk to friends on there. You're gonna be able to do x y z. That's my thesis. That's why I wanna invest in this because my friend was like, honestly, this is kind of a stupid idea why you bought there's not a business. And so he gave him that pitch, my friend was like, wow, that sounds awesome. I didn't even realize all that. I had stumbled into this gold mine potentially. So he's like, listen, man, I just I don't understand what this thing is. I just need to think about, and who else, like, no problem. And so he's like, I go. And then by the way, that same week, he meets Keith or Boy, Mac left, and a bunch of other people who are also giving him the same pitch in different flavors. Like, Keith for Boy was like,

My app is stupid. I don't know why he wants to invest in it. I don't really understand this. So he's like, I just don't feel comfortable right now, and he's like, and Naval at the time was like, you know, he's very He's like, I think Facebook is gonna be, you know, huge. I think it's gonna be the platform where you do lots of things. You're not just gonna talk to friends on there. You're gonna be able to do x y z. That's my thesis. That's why I wanna invest in this because my friend was like, honestly, this is kind of a stupid idea why you bought there's not a business. And so he gave him that pitch, my friend was like, wow, that sounds awesome. I didn't even realize all that. I had stumbled into this gold mine potentially. So he's like, listen, man, I just I don't understand what this thing is. I just need to think about, and who else, like, no problem. And so he's like, I go. And then by the way, that same week, he meets Keith or Boy, Mac left, and a bunch of other people who are also giving him the same pitch in different flavors. Like, Keith for Boy was like,

01:08:41

you should come work for us. He's like, I don't want a job. He's like, see all those people right there, the oldest programmers. They're gonna put you out of business. Like, you know, tomorrow. And he was like, this is a stupid app. It's not a business to do it. It wastes your time doing this. You're gonna put me out of business that isn't a business. I live in my mom's bedroom. Like, what are you talking about? And so then I, he said, he goes, you know, the great thing about Naval, though, is that he's like, like, fifteen years later now my friend's very, a very successful tech entrepreneur. He's like, I actually dug up that old term sheet He's like, it was so fair. He's like, he could've taken advantage of me, and I didn't know anything. And he's like, it was incredibly friendly and fair.

you should come work for us. He's like, I don't want a job. He's like, see all those people right there, the oldest programmers. They're gonna put you out of business. Like, you know, tomorrow. And he was like, this is a stupid app. It's not a business to do it. It wastes your time doing this. You're gonna put me out of business that isn't a business. I live in my mom's bedroom. Like, what are you talking about? And so then I, he said, he goes, you know, the great thing about Naval, though, is that he's like, like, fifteen years later now my friend's very, a very successful tech entrepreneur. He's like, I actually dug up that old term sheet He's like, it was so fair. He's like, he could've taken advantage of me, and I didn't know anything. And he's like, it was incredibly friendly and fair.

01:09:13

And he's like, that told me a lot about Nava, that at that time when a lot of people were in the heat of the moment about this kind of gold rush in that Facebook app days And I was clearly a novice.

And he's like, that told me a lot about Nava, that at that time when a lot of people were in the heat of the moment about this kind of gold rush in that Facebook app days And I was clearly a novice.

01:09:24

He he he operated with very high integrity. I thought that that said a lot about him. Yeah. That matches with my experience. I've always seen that in the ball. Yeah. For sure. Right on. Well, Tim, thanks for doing this, man. I really I really appreciate it. Yeah. My pleasure, man. Thanks for taking the time. Yeah. Mission accomplished.

He he he operated with very high integrity. I thought that that said a lot about him. Yeah. That matches with my experience. I've always seen that in the ball. Yeah. For sure. Right on. Well, Tim, thanks for doing this, man. I really I really appreciate it. Yeah. My pleasure, man. Thanks for taking the time. Yeah. Mission accomplished.

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