00:06

So basically,

So basically,

00:08

I I'm we've we've we're Facebook friends now, so we talk a little bit there. But I first met you at Hussle Con. I think this event that I hosted in two thousand and

I I'm we've we've we're Facebook friends now, so we talk a little bit there. But I first met you at Hussle Con. I think this event that I hosted in two thousand and

00:17

nineteen.

nineteen.

00:19

If you're one of the best people we've ever had, we've had hundreds of people, and I'll I'll tell you why. Two things.

If you're one of the best people we've ever had, we've had hundreds of people, and I'll I'll tell you why. Two things.

00:25

The first

The first

00:27

I think you spoke right when so this is Max. He started Grammarly. We'll do an intro in a second. But I think you spoke when

I think you spoke right when so this is Max. He started Grammarly. We'll do an intro in a second. But I think you spoke when

00:35

you guys had just raised maybe a hundred million dollars at a billion dollar valuation or something like that. Is that right? Yeah. That was,

you guys had just raised maybe a hundred million dollars at a billion dollar valuation or something like that. Is that right? Yeah. That was,

00:42

yeah, that was

yeah, that was

00:43

hundred twenty,

hundred twenty,

00:45

and,

and,

00:46

we didn't disclose valuation at the time. Yeah. But if I had to get, you, yeah, you didn't But I think I heard rumors and, like, I just am guessing it was, like, in that range, and it didn't matter. But but basically,

we didn't disclose valuation at the time. Yeah. But if I had to get, you, yeah, you didn't But I think I heard rumors and, like, I just am guessing it was, like, in that range, and it didn't matter. But but basically,

00:59

I made a comment to you. I'm like, that's pretty cool. Right? And you

I made a comment to you. I'm like, that's pretty cool. Right? And you

01:04

you kinda replied back. You weren't cocky, but you were very confident

you kinda replied back. You weren't cocky, but you were very confident

01:08

and still humble, but you kinda had a grin, and I forget exactly what you said, but it was something like, yeah, it's gonna get much bigger too. And I I loved that, like, a subtle confidence. And then at the event, what you talked about, I don't even remember the title.

and still humble, but you kinda had a grin, and I forget exactly what you said, but it was something like, yeah, it's gonna get much bigger too. And I I loved that, like, a subtle confidence. And then at the event, what you talked about, I don't even remember the title.

01:24

But the idea was basically like you're an engineer, but you've done a really good job of, like, evolving past just engineering

But the idea was basically like you're an engineer, but you've done a really good job of, like, evolving past just engineering

01:31

and you, like, said, this is how, like, I engineer, like, good products. And this is how, like, everything you looked at was from an engineer, like,

and you, like, said, this is how, like, I engineer, like, good products. And this is how, like, everything you looked at was from an engineer, like,

01:37

about reverse engineering different stuff. And I thought that was incredibly fascinating. You do do you remember what I'm talking about?

about reverse engineering different stuff. And I thought that was incredibly fascinating. You do do you remember what I'm talking about?

01:43

Oh, yeah. I do. I I remember that. I I actually

Oh, yeah. I do. I I remember that. I I actually

01:46

use at Montreal a lot in inside the company as well when look at, different markets and, where to go next and, it's just a universally good framework that,

use at Montreal a lot in inside the company as well when look at, different markets and, where to go next and, it's just a universally good framework that,

01:57

works for many things. Yeah. Just kind of looking at, things narrowly identifying the sweet spot and then just going broader from there. So this is Max Litfin.

works for many things. Yeah. Just kind of looking at, things narrowly identifying the sweet spot and then just going broader from there. So this is Max Litfin.

02:06

Lit Vinn. He started this company called Grammarly. Before Grammarly, you had another company called like Blackboard, I think. Right?

Lit Vinn. He started this company called Grammarly. Before Grammarly, you had another company called like Blackboard, I think. Right?

02:12

That was not my company. That was a company that bought my company. So my company was my Dropbox,

That was not my company. That was a company that bought my company. So my company was my Dropbox,

02:18

not to be confused with Dropbox.

not to be confused with Dropbox.

02:19

It was a plagiarism

It was a plagiarism

02:21

detection company, and, it was bought by Blackboarding

detection company, and, it was bought by Blackboarding

02:25

two thousand

two thousand

02:26

seven.

seven.

02:28

And then they spent two years with Blackboard,

And then they spent two years with Blackboard,

02:30

kind of a part earn out part of just being

kind of a part earn out part of just being

02:34

being there. And that was like a a a compared to Grammarly a mild success. Right? Like, it was it was financially good, but it wasn't like the huge, huge multi billion dollar company. Oh, yeah. That was, that was,

being there. And that was like a a a compared to Grammarly a mild success. Right? Like, it was it was financially good, but it wasn't like the huge, huge multi billion dollar company. Oh, yeah. That was, that was,

02:48

just a start. It could have grown big,

just a start. It could have grown big,

02:51

but

but

02:52

education is was at the point,

education is was at the point,

02:55

relatively difficult market to to be in and wasn't as big of a market.

relatively difficult market to to be in and wasn't as big of a market.

03:01

Plus our product was fairly narrow. It was just doing one thing, for one group of people.

Plus our product was fairly narrow. It was just doing one thing, for one group of people.

03:07

So we kinda saw that it can grow to this point, but further it's gonna be very slow and very difficult. So that's why we decided to sell a bus. We had big idea. And you started Grammarly. And at this point, can you reveal can you reveal how big it is? Because,

So we kinda saw that it can grow to this point, but further it's gonna be very slow and very difficult. So that's why we decided to sell a bus. We had big idea. And you started Grammarly. And at this point, can you reveal can you reveal how big it is? Because,

03:23

I, like, it's shockingly large.

I, like, it's shockingly large.

03:26

Yeah.

Yeah.

03:27

So we raised that,

So we raised that,

03:28

thirteen billion evaluation,

thirteen billion evaluation,

03:31

and we disclosed that valuation.

and we disclosed that valuation.

03:33

I still think it's a conservative it's conservative one. Why? Because

I still think it's a conservative it's conservative one. Why? Because

03:38

Grammarly is a very nonstandard

Grammarly is a very nonstandard

03:40

company and very nonstandard product.

company and very nonstandard product.

03:43

It's easy to see it for the last one it is.

It's easy to see it for the last one it is.

03:47

And,

And,

03:48

and that,

and that,

03:50

that kind of reflected,

that kind of reflected,

03:52

often in, in, in perceptions of, of everyone, if investors, of,

often in, in, in perceptions of, of everyone, if investors, of,

03:57

sometimes even potential team members, we have to playing why it's big and, you know, but,

sometimes even potential team members, we have to playing why it's big and, you know, but,

04:02

that also helps with, last competition.

that also helps with, last competition.

04:05

Well, and, like, And and by the way, you guys bootstrapped it for a long time. So, like, you and your co co founder, like, it's not like you own, like, four percent of this company. You guys probably you own, like, a a very substantial amount. So, like, actually so, well, you're on paper. You're you're probably a multi billionaire at this point.

Well, and, like, And and by the way, you guys bootstrapped it for a long time. So, like, you and your co co founder, like, it's not like you own, like, four percent of this company. You guys probably you own, like, a a very substantial amount. So, like, actually so, well, you're on paper. You're you're probably a multi billionaire at this point.

04:23

It depends on whom you believe.

It depends on whom you believe.

04:25

There is some information that's not fully accurate.

There is some information that's not fully accurate.

04:29

But, yeah, we we

But, yeah, we we

04:31

we managed to keep significant portion of the company with the and employees.

we managed to keep significant portion of the company with the and employees.

04:36

Employees only actually quite a lot. Did, when I heard about Grammerly, the reason why

Employees only actually quite a lot. Did, when I heard about Grammerly, the reason why

04:42

I wanted you to come on to the podcast and at Hussicon is because I think my reaction is the same reaction most people in business had, which is like, a, This is just a Chrome plug in. B, this is just spell check. Like,

I wanted you to come on to the podcast and at Hussicon is because I think my reaction is the same reaction most people in business had, which is like, a, This is just a Chrome plug in. B, this is just spell check. Like,

04:56

there's no way that either of those things are interesting, and then I learned about it. And I was like, oh, this is like way bigger than

there's no way that either of those things are interesting, and then I learned about it. And I was like, oh, this is like way bigger than

05:03

it just looks like that. It's way more than that. Did most people where, like, there's where most people dismissive of, like, it just being a Chrome plugin?

it just looks like that. It's way more than that. Did most people where, like, there's where most people dismissive of, like, it just being a Chrome plugin?

05:14

Some people are dismissive.

Some people are dismissive.

05:16

Quite a lot. And, I wouldn't say dismissive. It's not like completely all this, nothing.

Quite a lot. And, I wouldn't say dismissive. It's not like completely all this, nothing.

05:22

But,

But,

05:24

underestimate

underestimate

05:24

the impact and the importance of it.

the impact and the importance of it.

05:27

And that's that's an interesting, conversation always always very similar because

And that's that's an interesting, conversation always always very similar because

05:33

they kind of think, oh, this is a good product. This is a cool product, but not for me because, well, I I know what I'm doing.

they kind of think, oh, this is a good product. This is a cool product, but not for me because, well, I I know what I'm doing.

05:40

And then

And then

05:42

they try and,

they try and,

05:44

it helps. It helps the material ways and,

it helps. It helps the material ways and,

05:47

especially

especially

05:48

when you measure results. Because, you know, when you're don't measure things, and I'm just, you know, typing away,

when you measure results. Because, you know, when you're don't measure things, and I'm just, you know, typing away,

05:55

it saves you from an embarrassment or helps you phrase something more clearly.

it saves you from an embarrassment or helps you phrase something more clearly.

06:00

Kind of, yeah, that's cool, but what's the impact to add to me the money.

Kind of, yeah, that's cool, but what's the impact to add to me the money.

06:05

But when it's done in the business scale,

But when it's done in the business scale,

06:08

and it's measured and it's, kind of assessed.

and it's measured and it's, kind of assessed.

06:11

You can see, like, percentages,

You can see, like, percentages,

06:13

improvements in, in different metrics, productivity,

improvements in, in different metrics, productivity,

06:17

and so on. And then it's up. Then it's up. We bought it at the hustle. So I I had it for,

and so on. And then it's up. Then it's up. We bought it at the hustle. So I I had it for,

06:22

the whole company.

the whole company.

06:24

I don't remember what it what it cost, but I remember seeing the bill every month hundreds of dollars a month. We and everyone loved it, and I loved it. I I still use it. So, like, I totally

I don't remember what it what it cost, but I remember seeing the bill every month hundreds of dollars a month. We and everyone loved it, and I loved it. I I still use it. So, like, I totally

06:34

I totally buy I I totally once I started using it, I was like, oh my god. I get it. But one thing that I've always been fascinated with is is just plugins as a business.

I totally buy I I totally once I started using it, I was like, oh my god. I get it. But one thing that I've always been fascinated with is is just plugins as a business.

06:45

Particularly two types of plugins. Wordpress plugins,

Particularly two types of plugins. Wordpress plugins,

06:49

There's a bunch of guys that have, like, some substantially side substantial sized businesses selling WordPress plugins, you know, like, twenty five, fifty million dollars a year. And then Chrome plugins, which do you I don't know if you, like, describe yourself as a Chrome plugin as a business. I I don't think you are, but, like, it's definitely like the one of the main ways in which most people interact with you. Right?

There's a bunch of guys that have, like, some substantially side substantial sized businesses selling WordPress plugins, you know, like, twenty five, fifty million dollars a year. And then Chrome plugins, which do you I don't know if you, like, describe yourself as a Chrome plugin as a business. I I don't think you are, but, like, it's definitely like the one of the main ways in which most people interact with you. Right?

07:10

For now, yes.

For now, yes.

07:12

We just recently

We just recently

07:14

switched over to our flagship product being, operating system level integration.

switched over to our flagship product being, operating system level integration.

07:20

So it works

So it works

07:21

similar to Chrome plug in except it integrates with all the apps not just web apps.

similar to Chrome plug in except it integrates with all the apps not just web apps.

07:27

So that's, that was a big switch over that happened

So that's, that was a big switch over that happened

07:32

in,

in,

07:33

December.

December.

07:33

So just about a month ago.

So just about a month ago.

07:37

So that's, that expands the surface area for Grammarly. Now it's in

So that's, that expands the surface area for Grammarly. Now it's in

07:41

Microsoft PowerPoint and, you know, Oracle applications and wherever wherever you want, basically.

Microsoft PowerPoint and, you know, Oracle applications and wherever wherever you want, basically.

07:48

Did you why'd you hire a CEO? When did you do that?

Did you why'd you hire a CEO? When did you do that?

07:54

That's kind of a jumping topics, but, yeah, we,

That's kind of a jumping topics, but, yeah, we,

07:58

We brought in, a CEO, I think, in twenty eleven.

We brought in, a CEO, I think, in twenty eleven.

08:03

And,

And,

08:05

one reason, one big reason for that was that

one reason, one big reason for that was that

08:09

both, Alex, microphone, and I, we have a philosophy that everybody should be doing, should be in their zone or genius doing what they like and what what they're good at.

both, Alex, microphone, and I, we have a philosophy that everybody should be doing, should be in their zone or genius doing what they like and what what they're good at.

08:18

And

And

08:19

nobody,

nobody,

08:20

no one of us was really

no one of us was really

08:23

experienced

experienced

08:24

or or even that passionate about scaling organizations.

or or even that passionate about scaling organizations.

08:29

And that's what we were kind of the biggest thing we were looking for from as from a CEO.

And that's what we were kind of the biggest thing we were looking for from as from a CEO.

08:35

Teaching us and

Teaching us and

08:37

and doing that, basically, scaling the company. Cause we realize that to do what we need to do, we need a lot of people. We need a big company. It's,

and doing that, basically, scaling the company. Cause we realize that to do what we need to do, we need a lot of people. We need a big company. It's,

08:45

kind of a number of people and and size is not a kind of a desired outcome in itself. It is a necessity because the goals are so big that you can do it with, twenty people or thirty. How many employees did you have when you hired Brad?

kind of a number of people and and size is not a kind of a desired outcome in itself. It is a necessity because the goals are so big that you can do it with, twenty people or thirty. How many employees did you have when you hired Brad?

09:01

I think twenty something. Oh, wow. Nothing. I mean, small.

I think twenty something. Oh, wow. Nothing. I mean, small.

09:06

Small. Yeah. Yeah. We were fairly small.

Small. Yeah. Yeah. We were fairly small.

09:09

We were we were,

We were we were,

09:12

making good revenue and being profitable at the time already,

making good revenue and being profitable at the time already,

09:15

but the company was still very small.

but the company was still very small.

09:18

And that's that's kind of a

And that's that's kind of a

09:20

debt debt realization. We need to the opportunity is big and we need to scale

debt debt realization. We need to the opportunity is big and we need to scale

09:25

that pushed us to look for kind of external expertise. How did you because

that pushed us to look for kind of external expertise. How did you because

09:30

at that point, you I guess you didn't raise money. So you and your partner are like, oh, it was, like, your biz it was your company and, like, your money. How did you

at that point, you I guess you didn't raise money. So you and your partner are like, oh, it was, like, your biz it was your company and, like, your money. How did you

09:40

How did you not micromanage

How did you not micromanage

09:42

Brad?

Brad?

09:42

Because I did the same thing, and

Because I did the same thing, and

09:45

not micromanaging is tough because you're like, oh my god. You make a mistake, you're gonna lose money, and that's like my money. And so it's like really stressful to, like, let someone fail sometimes and learn I were you micromanaging or were you pretty emotionally healthy about it?

not micromanaging is tough because you're like, oh my god. You make a mistake, you're gonna lose money, and that's like my money. And so it's like really stressful to, like, let someone fail sometimes and learn I were you micromanaging or were you pretty emotionally healthy about it?

10:00

I'd like to think we were emotionally healthy.

I'd like to think we were emotionally healthy.

10:02

Maybe Brad would disagree. I don't know. I wish he I actually will ask him. But,

Maybe Brad would disagree. I don't know. I wish he I actually will ask him. But,

10:08

I think part of it was out of necessity. There was just so much to do that if you micro manage, you get stuck. You'd only not make progress. So there was just no time or resources or energy to micromanage anybody.

I think part of it was out of necessity. There was just so much to do that if you micro manage, you get stuck. You'd only not make progress. So there was just no time or resources or energy to micromanage anybody.

10:19

We had to divide and conquer to to actually keep making progress.

We had to divide and conquer to to actually keep making progress.

10:23

Because it's a it's a lot of work. So just just from the volume of things to do,

Because it's a it's a lot of work. So just just from the volume of things to do,

10:28

everybody had to do their own thing. So that that happened naturally. And part of it is is a philosophy that, again, Alex, and I share that basically if you bring in

everybody had to do their own thing. So that that happened naturally. And part of it is is a philosophy that, again, Alex, and I share that basically if you bring in

10:39

smart people on board,

smart people on board,

10:41

like, not listening to them or not letting them think independently is a waste. Basically,

like, not listening to them or not letting them think independently is a waste. Basically,

10:47

There is no point in bringing smart people on board.

There is no point in bringing smart people on board.

10:50

So that's, that's that made it easy to

So that's, that's that made it easy to

10:53

kind of give freedom and give space to to bread and and other,

kind of give freedom and give space to to bread and and other,

10:58

leadership team members. What were your goals early on? Like, where when you started the business, we're like, man, I think this can make ten million dollars a year and provide a good lifestyle. Or, like, I think this could or was it, like, I think this could be, like, a multi billion dollar thing? Like, what were your girl goals early on?

leadership team members. What were your goals early on? Like, where when you started the business, we're like, man, I think this can make ten million dollars a year and provide a good lifestyle. Or, like, I think this could or was it, like, I think this could be, like, a multi billion dollar thing? Like, what were your girl goals early on?

11:14

I think we decided

I think we decided

11:17

that it could be a multi billion dollar business

that it could be a multi billion dollar business

11:21

during our conversations with Brad, partially.

during our conversations with Brad, partially.

11:25

So kind of Alex and I, we we we hope that it could be. But then once we started talking with Brad about valuation plans and all that,

So kind of Alex and I, we we we hope that it could be. But then once we started talking with Brad about valuation plans and all that,

11:34

when he was thinking about joining, then it become pretty clear

when he was thinking about joining, then it become pretty clear

11:38

that, yes, there is a multi billion dollar market out there. Are we gonna capture it or not

that, yes, there is a multi billion dollar market out there. Are we gonna capture it or not

11:45

to be to be determined, but

to be to be determined, but

11:48

at that point, but,

at that point, but,

11:50

there is definitely an opportunity.

there is definitely an opportunity.

11:52

So the size of the opportunity became clear

So the size of the opportunity became clear

11:55

fairly early

fairly early

11:57

But,

But,

11:59

past there, that that took years. What was the vision

past there, that that took years. What was the vision

12:02

that may or what what did you see that made you feel that it could be a multi billion dollar opportunity and what was the vision. And were there any was there any numbers that you saw early on that which said, like, oh my gosh, there's something here.

that may or what what did you see that made you feel that it could be a multi billion dollar opportunity and what was the vision. And were there any was there any numbers that you saw early on that which said, like, oh my gosh, there's something here.

12:17

Yeah. So I think the breakthrough moment was when we saw that it is possible to help not just professional writers, people who write for living every day, but also help

Yeah. So I think the breakthrough moment was when we saw that it is possible to help not just professional writers, people who write for living every day, but also help

12:28

casual writers or people who write as

casual writers or people who write as

12:31

part of their job, but or part of their life, but not like a key part. So writing is not their, like, main product. They're now you know, like, novelists over or researchers who are published and so on. So when we saw that it's possible to make a product that's useful for everybody else,

part of their job, but or part of their life, but not like a key part. So writing is not their, like, main product. They're now you know, like, novelists over or researchers who are published and so on. So when we saw that it's possible to make a product that's useful for everybody else,

12:49

then it clicked.

then it clicked.

12:51

In the very simple formula. If you look at amount of time we spend communicating, creating knowledge,

In the very simple formula. If you look at amount of time we spend communicating, creating knowledge,

12:59

as a humanity, as all people in the world, it is a huge percentage of our time, and it's increasing because we spend less time doing things with our hands. Manufacturing is being automated. It's not like we were doing it manually anymore,

as a humanity, as all people in the world, it is a huge percentage of our time, and it's increasing because we spend less time doing things with our hands. Manufacturing is being automated. It's not like we were doing it manually anymore,

13:12

as much.

as much.

13:13

So if you take this time that we spend communicating and creating knowledge and make it even one percent more effective.

So if you take this time that we spend communicating and creating knowledge and make it even one percent more effective.

13:22

The impact is in trillions.

The impact is in trillions.

13:24

Not not even billions.

Not not even billions.

13:27

So can we do something that makes communication

So can we do something that makes communication

13:30

one percent more effective on average for everybody,

one percent more effective on average for everybody,

13:33

that doesn't sound impossible. That sounds like something's doable.

that doesn't sound impossible. That sounds like something's doable.

13:36

That's doable. So so we decided I had that aim same insight, except I

That's doable. So so we decided I had that aim same insight, except I

13:41

did it in such a horrible, worst way. So, basically,

did it in such a horrible, worst way. So, basically,

13:45

I learned how to be a copywriter.

I learned how to be a copywriter.

13:47

So, like, I read books on copywriting and, like, on persuasive writing And my theory was like, oh my god, like, with texting or, like, online dating.

So, like, I read books on copywriting and, like, on persuasive writing And my theory was like, oh my god, like, with texting or, like, online dating.

13:56

I I was single at the time in in twenty one. And so it was all about, like, dating. I'm like, Oh, man. If I were to learn how to write better in my messages to girls who I match with, like, my life is gonna be better. And then I was like, Wait a minute. If I learned how to write better, I could sell more stuff. If I learned how to write better, I can make people feel emotions about, like, this cause that I want to I'm, like, just writing better, like,

I I was single at the time in in twenty one. And so it was all about, like, dating. I'm like, Oh, man. If I were to learn how to write better in my messages to girls who I match with, like, my life is gonna be better. And then I was like, Wait a minute. If I learned how to write better, I could sell more stuff. If I learned how to write better, I can make people feel emotions about, like, this cause that I want to I'm, like, just writing better, like,

14:18

it changes. It makes life more practical, but also

it changes. It makes life more practical, but also

14:21

it it

it it

14:24

makes you think better. So, like, if you can if you have an idea for something

makes you think better. So, like, if you can if you have an idea for something

14:29

and you're forced to write it out, you'll see all the holes and idea, and you'll and you'll force yourself to, like, laid out. And so I was like, oh, I'll teach people how to write better. And so I created a course on how to write better. Of course, like, obviously, creating a software product. It was out of my league, but, like, that was clearly the the better move to do. But the same insight was like,

and you're forced to write it out, you'll see all the holes and idea, and you'll and you'll force yourself to, like, laid out. And so I was like, oh, I'll teach people how to write better. And so I created a course on how to write better. Of course, like, obviously, creating a software product. It was out of my league, but, like, that was clearly the the better move to do. But the same insight was like,

14:49

everything that we do is via a text whether it's a text message or an email or a website.

everything that we do is via a text whether it's a text message or an email or a website.

14:55

And even if it's via, like, the spoken word,

And even if it's via, like, the spoken word,

14:58

I have to write that anyway. So, like, writing is, like, the the most important thing that you can master. I just wish I would have approached it in a software way as opposed to just selling a three hundred dollar course Yeah. Software is more scalable. That's that's true. And,

I have to write that anyway. So, like, writing is, like, the the most important thing that you can master. I just wish I would have approached it in a software way as opposed to just selling a three hundred dollar course Yeah. Software is more scalable. That's that's true. And,

15:12

and actually what we just said about writing,

and actually what we just said about writing,

15:14

it also applies to speech.

it also applies to speech.

15:17

We, when we do user research, we notice that,

We, when we do user research, we notice that,

15:21

people who use Grammarly repeatedly

people who use Grammarly repeatedly

15:25

adopt patterns of communication, more effective patterns of communication and translate it to non written communication as well. So for example, if Gramley keeps suggesting that you don't use kind of a wordy or vague or weak sentence structures,

adopt patterns of communication, more effective patterns of communication and translate it to non written communication as well. So for example, if Gramley keeps suggesting that you don't use kind of a wordy or vague or weak sentence structures,

15:39

you stop or reduce use of them in speech as well. So I So kind of good habits rub off and and translate to other modes of communication. Here's my opinion. So have you ever heard of copy work?

you stop or reduce use of them in speech as well. So I So kind of good habits rub off and and translate to other modes of communication. Here's my opinion. So have you ever heard of copy work?

15:53

No. So in like the

No. So in like the

15:55

seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds, and up until, like, nineteen ten.

seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds, and up until, like, nineteen ten.

16:00

One of the ways in America that we would teach children how to write well It's the same way that we would teach them how to play an instrument. So if I wanted to teach you how to play the piano, I'm not gonna say, like, go ahead, like, write go write a piano song. I would say, well, let's play jingle bells. Let's learn how to play happy birthday. Then after that, we can move to like some more pop songs that you really like. And then you do that for two years and you, like, see patterns and you, like, understand you just copy other people's music and in doing that, you see patterns. And then eventually, you're like, oh, I know the rules to the game now. Now I can decide to follow them to break them, but I can make my own. And it's the same thing with writing.

One of the ways in America that we would teach children how to write well It's the same way that we would teach them how to play an instrument. So if I wanted to teach you how to play the piano, I'm not gonna say, like, go ahead, like, write go write a piano song. I would say, well, let's play jingle bells. Let's learn how to play happy birthday. Then after that, we can move to like some more pop songs that you really like. And then you do that for two years and you, like, see patterns and you, like, understand you just copy other people's music and in doing that, you see patterns. And then eventually, you're like, oh, I know the rules to the game now. Now I can decide to follow them to break them, but I can make my own. And it's the same thing with writing.

16:37

But we don't do that. And so what that means is I think one of the easiest ways to learn is you find great writing that you really like, and you just literally copy it by hand. And in doing that, you, like, see the patterns, and that's called copy work. It's not a very popular way to learn how to write now. But in my opinion, it's one of the most powerful. I would say Grammarly,

But we don't do that. And so what that means is I think one of the easiest ways to learn is you find great writing that you really like, and you just literally copy it by hand. And in doing that, you, like, see the patterns, and that's called copy work. It's not a very popular way to learn how to write now. But in my opinion, it's one of the most powerful. I would say Grammarly,

16:56

in a sense, it's doing that because in real time, you're learning But it's far better than just saying, like, go and write, like, just, like, spend a lot of time writing your own stuff. I think copying other people is far better.

in a sense, it's doing that because in real time, you're learning But it's far better than just saying, like, go and write, like, just, like, spend a lot of time writing your own stuff. I think copying other people is far better.

17:09

Anyway, it's something I've been playing with. I'm I'm I'm I'm not a lot of people have heard of copy work. I thought maybe you would have, but

Anyway, it's something I've been playing with. I'm I'm I'm I'm not a lot of people have heard of copy work. I thought maybe you would have, but

17:15

It's like not very well known.

It's like not very well known.

17:18

No. I haven't heard of it, but I've seen it done in many, many fields,

No. I haven't heard of it, but I've seen it done in many, many fields,

17:24

like,

like,

17:25

at one point, I I was passionate about photography.

at one point, I I was passionate about photography.

17:28

And, same there, you just basically

And, same there, you just basically

17:31

try different,

try different,

17:32

try to basically copy. Different photographs and recreate them. And then this way, you learn the language of of that art.

try to basically copy. Different photographs and recreate them. And then this way, you learn the language of of that art.

17:40

So so, yeah, that applies to many many areas.

So so, yeah, that applies to many many areas.

17:43

How technical were you and your co founder? Were you technical enough to build the first handful of iterations?

How technical were you and your co founder? Were you technical enough to build the first handful of iterations?

17:50

So I was very technical.

So I was very technical.

17:52

So for example, previous,

So for example, previous,

17:55

plagiarism detection company.

plagiarism detection company.

17:57

I wrote,

I wrote,

17:59

the core,

the core,

18:00

the core algorithm and and,

the core algorithm and and,

18:02

most of the, code,

most of the, code,

18:03

originally. Most of the kind of back end code, not the front end.

originally. Most of the kind of back end code, not the front end.

18:08

But

But

18:09

When we were,

When we were,

18:11

working on Grammarly,

working on Grammarly,

18:13

I

I

18:14

don't think I did any production code. I coded some of the, like, experiments,

don't think I did any production code. I coded some of the, like, experiments,

18:19

landing pages, payment checkout process,

landing pages, payment checkout process,

18:22

like, some stuff. That you don't even need to code anymore today if you don't want to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I coded some of that, but I didn't code, like, like a real production grade stuff. Mostly because I'm, I'm not formally a software engineer. I'm a kind of a self trained coder, but, kind of building a real

like, some stuff. That you don't even need to code anymore today if you don't want to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I coded some of that, but I didn't code, like, like a real production grade stuff. Mostly because I'm, I'm not formally a software engineer. I'm a kind of a self trained coder, but, kind of building a real

18:42

complex software is not my thing, plus I had to I had to manage the business full time. So,

complex software is not my thing, plus I had to I had to manage the business full time. So,

18:48

when we started out,

when we started out,

18:50

I was responsible for,

I was responsible for,

18:52

finance, marketing,

finance, marketing,

18:55

like, pretty much

like, pretty much

18:57

like, lots, lots of things. Like, basically everybody has to wear a lot of hats in a small company. So the brining the business occupied pretty much my whole time. So

like, lots, lots of things. Like, basically everybody has to wear a lot of hats in a small company. So the brining the business occupied pretty much my whole time. So

19:07

was no time for for So you just hire you you did you guys just self fund it and hire a couple of people to help build the first version?

was no time for for So you just hire you you did you guys just self fund it and hire a couple of people to help build the first version?

19:15

We hired quite a numb quite a significant number of people. We also had a a technical co founder on board

We hired quite a numb quite a significant number of people. We also had a a technical co founder on board

19:24

demo leader,

demo leader,

19:26

who helped to build out a technical team.

who helped to build out a technical team.

19:29

So he was responsible for

So he was responsible for

19:32

for the technical side initially.

for the technical side initially.

19:35

But yeah, because of our previous exit, we had

But yeah, because of our previous exit, we had

19:39

some savings that we could put into Grammarly and some substantial savings we could put put into Grammarly. So, basically, we were both founders and the first investors. How much did you spend to get the to to make it work until, like, it was a sellable product?

some savings that we could put into Grammarly and some substantial savings we could put put into Grammarly. So, basically, we were both founders and the first investors. How much did you spend to get the to to make it work until, like, it was a sellable product?

19:54

I don't remember.

I don't remember.

19:56

Like a million or ten million five hundred thousand. Do you remember?

Like a million or ten million five hundred thousand. Do you remember?

20:03

I think it was close to a million.

I think it was close to a million.

20:06

But it was a product that worked only for very small audience, very, very small use case.

But it was a product that worked only for very small audience, very, very small use case.

20:13

And it was not real time. So, basically, what happened was

And it was not real time. So, basically, what happened was

20:18

you

you

20:19

write a book, a chapter of a book, because it's gonna check the whole book at at once,

write a book, a chapter of a book, because it's gonna check the whole book at at once,

20:24

or you write a research paper. You submit it to

or you write a research paper. You submit it to

20:28

the initial, like, the old Grammarly,

the initial, like, the old Grammarly,

20:30

and then you go make a cup of coffee, and then you drink the cup of coffee and then you wait a little bit more, and then it spit out the result.

and then you go make a cup of coffee, and then you drink the cup of coffee and then you wait a little bit more, and then it spit out the result.

20:39

And

And

20:39

the result was probably

the result was probably

20:42

half of it was real issues, and half of it was false positives.

half of it was real issues, and half of it was false positives.

20:46

But at the time, the audience, the the target market was fine with that because if you spend, like, two months writing a book,

But at the time, the audience, the the target market was fine with that because if you spend, like, two months writing a book,

20:54

like, what's extra half an hour to review all the potential issues, right, even if they're not real. But that won't fly with, with business writers, for example. If you're writing a business email that you need to send in twenty seconds, you're not gonna deal with false positives. And did that version get you to profitability?

like, what's extra half an hour to review all the potential issues, right, even if they're not real. But that won't fly with, with business writers, for example. If you're writing a business email that you need to send in twenty seconds, you're not gonna deal with false positives. And did that version get you to profitability?

21:13

Yeah. Oh, shit. Would you charge for a hundred dollars a year?

Yeah. Oh, shit. Would you charge for a hundred dollars a year?

21:18

We charged, I think, ninety dollars a year, something like that.

We charged, I think, ninety dollars a year, something like that.

21:22

Yeah.

Yeah.

21:24

Yeah, or hundred Yeah. I think nine ninety five dollars a year. How did the people hear about it? The first users?

Yeah, or hundred Yeah. I think nine ninety five dollars a year. How did the people hear about it? The first users?

21:32

So that was interesting because we launched two

So that was interesting because we launched two

21:35

peril streams.

peril streams.

21:37

One to consumers

One to consumers

21:38

and one to,

and one to,

21:40

businesses,

businesses,

21:41

educational institutions to publishers,

educational institutions to publishers,

21:45

basic companies, consulting companies,

basic companies, consulting companies,

21:47

and,

and,

21:49

the consumer

the consumer

21:50

channel took off. Like, it grew exponentially

channel took off. Like, it grew exponentially

21:53

from basically week one.

from basically week one.

21:56

And enterprise

And enterprise

21:57

or b to b,

or b to b,

22:00

it took longer to build.

it took longer to build.

22:02

So

So

22:03

once we kind of pushed both of them in parallel for about half a year.

once we kind of pushed both of them in parallel for about half a year.

22:09

We saw that well,

We saw that well,

22:11

kind of makes sense to focus on consumer for now because it's just growing like

kind of makes sense to focus on consumer for now because it's just growing like

22:15

wildfire.

wildfire.

22:16

But,

But,

22:18

b to b requires much more pushing, much more hiring, more people intensive, because you need sales team and all that. So we kind of, decided

b to b requires much more pushing, much more hiring, more people intensive, because you need sales team and all that. So we kind of, decided

22:28

to slow roll the it a little bit.

to slow roll the it a little bit.

22:31

And focus on consumer for first few years. And do it to paid marketing or organic?

And focus on consumer for first few years. And do it to paid marketing or organic?

22:38

We did everything.

We did everything.

22:41

We we tried, all the channels available to us, and, obviously, different channels have different benefits.

We we tried, all the channels available to us, and, obviously, different channels have different benefits.

22:47

At the time,

At the time,

22:50

social was also easier to to get free, promotional from.

social was also easier to to get free, promotional from.

22:55

Right now, obviously,

Right now, obviously,

22:56

kind of, Facebook and others just wanna capture all the value they create.

kind of, Facebook and others just wanna capture all the value they create.

23:00

But back then,

But back then,

23:02

it was easy to get easier to get stuff viral and social and and just get free promotion from that.

it was easy to get easier to get stuff viral and social and and just get free promotion from that.

23:08

SEO was easier as well.

SEO was easier as well.

23:11

So many things were just, like, many channels were,

So many things were just, like, many channels were,

23:15

quite easier to do.

quite easier to do.

23:16

But we relied on paid

But we relied on paid

23:18

early on quite a bit,

early on quite a bit,

23:20

because it's,

because it's,

23:22

it's a very quick feedback loop.

it's a very quick feedback loop.

23:25

You design an ad

You design an ad

23:27

you send it,

you send it,

23:28

or kind of put it in the system, and then you get back results,

or kind of put it in the system, and then you get back results,

23:32

like, within hours.

like, within hours.

23:34

And it tells you if the message resonates. If there is a market for that. If you're finding that market correctly,

And it tells you if the message resonates. If there is a market for that. If you're finding that market correctly,

23:40

you know that within, like, hours.

you know that within, like, hours.

23:42

It's a in in more traditional world. It's a weeks of one hundred thousand dollars. Yeah.

It's a in in more traditional world. It's a weeks of one hundred thousand dollars. Yeah.

23:49

So that's,

So that's,

23:50

that was, that was kind of why we were so,

that was, that was kind of why we were so,

23:54

bullish on paid from early on, even though it costs a lot of money. What companies are you guys trying to buy companies?

bullish on paid from early on, even though it costs a lot of money. What companies are you guys trying to buy companies?

24:02

Not specifically. I mean, we're open to that.

Not specifically. I mean, we're open to that.

24:06

But, we're not, like, hunting wycombe. Is there a

But, we're not, like, hunting wycombe. Is there a

24:10

problem that you need to be solved? And then you saw that this other company was solving that problem that you'd buy it. So, like, let me give you an example. The, the founder of jet,

problem that you need to be solved? And then you saw that this other company was solving that problem that you'd buy it. So, like, let me give you an example. The, the founder of jet,

24:20

you know, jet dot com?

you know, jet dot com?

24:22

They sold to Walmart for some billions of dollars. And he's like, man, if Walmart, if we could figure out a way how to reduce returns

They sold to Walmart for some billions of dollars. And he's like, man, if Walmart, if we could figure out a way how to reduce returns

24:29

by helping people pick the right sizes,

by helping people pick the right sizes,

24:32

would buy that company for a lot of money. Is there anything

would buy that company for a lot of money. Is there anything

24:36

instead of Grammarly or, like, man, we haven't figured out blank yet But if someone did figure out blank, that's a cool company we would buy. That's a cool problem solved that we would buy.

instead of Grammarly or, like, man, we haven't figured out blank yet But if someone did figure out blank, that's a cool company we would buy. That's a cool problem solved that we would buy.

24:48

Yeah. There are many things.

Yeah. There are many things.

24:50

Like things around,

Like things around,

24:53

doing more on device.

doing more on device.

24:55

Like, doing more and more processing on device. I think that that that will be very interesting to us because,

Like, doing more and more processing on device. I think that that that will be very interesting to us because,

25:02

it it didn't it enables

it it didn't it enables

25:05

better user experience,

better user experience,

25:07

lower lag,

lower lag,

25:09

potentially higher performance.

potentially higher performance.

25:12

It also helps alleviate some, potential privacy concerns.

It also helps alleviate some, potential privacy concerns.

25:16

So kind of a, a no brainer to do more stuff on device, and it's cheaper for for for us to Sorry. What what does that mean? You mean,

So kind of a, a no brainer to do more stuff on device, and it's cheaper for for for us to Sorry. What what does that mean? You mean,

25:24

like, instead of you paying for all this cloud space for everything for the the for Yeah.

like, instead of you paying for all this cloud space for everything for the the for Yeah.

25:31

Yeah. Calculating the suggestions on device. So, basically, whenever,

Yeah. Calculating the suggestions on device. So, basically, whenever,

25:35

we say, oh, this needs to be shorter or re rephrase it. Like that making that determination

we say, oh, this needs to be shorter or re rephrase it. Like that making that determination

25:42

on your phone or on your laptop rather than sending it to cloud and and having our servers

on your phone or on your laptop rather than sending it to cloud and and having our servers

25:47

crunch numbers. So that's, that's kind of a that that that has number of benefits for,

crunch numbers. So that's, that's kind of a that that that has number of benefits for,

25:54

for both Actually, I I don't know what those costs are. So how much does it cost to hold? Like, what percentage of your revenue do you spend on? Or maybe, like, how does the payroll compare the payroll costs compared to, like, your hosting costs.

for both Actually, I I don't know what those costs are. So how much does it cost to hold? Like, what percentage of your revenue do you spend on? Or maybe, like, how does the payroll compare the payroll costs compared to, like, your hosting costs.

26:08

I I would say it's comparable.

I I would say it's comparable.

26:10

Hosting costs are like, even though we don't host

Hosting costs are like, even though we don't host

26:13

much of the data, like, we're not, like, Dropbox where we store files.

much of the data, like, we're not, like, Dropbox where we store files.

26:17

But the processing, the processing is quite expensive, especially if you consider that we have

But the processing, the processing is quite expensive, especially if you consider that we have

26:22

tens of millions of free users who are not paying us anything.

tens of millions of free users who are not paying us anything.

26:26

And, we're not we don't monetize them in any way at all.

And, we're not we don't monetize them in any way at all.

26:30

Because we don't we don't sell user data. We don't show ads. We don't do any of that. So, basically, all the free users are not monetized until they subscribe.

Because we don't we don't sell user data. We don't show ads. We don't do any of that. So, basically, all the free users are not monetized until they subscribe.

26:39

So that that makes it,

So that that makes it,

26:41

that makes us

that makes us

26:42

be conscious of, processing costs, especially for regions where

be conscious of, processing costs, especially for regions where

26:47

not many people can upgrade to premium,

not many people can upgrade to premium,

26:50

like, developing countries. How many employees do you have?

like, developing countries. How many employees do you have?

26:55

I don't recall exactly, but I I would say somewhere around eight hundred. Damn. So then you're paying a shit ton for those that hosting.

I don't recall exactly, but I I would say somewhere around eight hundred. Damn. So then you're paying a shit ton for those that hosting.

27:03

Yeah. I I I would I would say it could be less than pure. Well, I I don't remember exactly. But, yeah, it is a significant amount. I mean, that that menu supporting that many users

Yeah. I I I would I would say it could be less than pure. Well, I I don't remember exactly. But, yeah, it is a significant amount. I mean, that that menu supporting that many users

27:12

and providing a reliable service. It it does Who do you pay?

and providing a reliable service. It it does Who do you pay?

27:17

It's mostly Amazon. Crazy, man.

It's mostly Amazon. Crazy, man.

27:19

Like, it it just runs the internet. It's crazy.

Like, it it just runs the internet. It's crazy.

27:22

Well, yeah. We evaluate from time to time, bringing some things in house.

Well, yeah. We evaluate from time to time, bringing some things in house.

27:28

And, actually, some things we do have in house, not,

And, actually, some things we do have in house, not,

27:32

not necessarily, like, the the hosting infrastructure, but, like, some train model training and all that stuff we do in house,

not necessarily, like, the the hosting infrastructure, but, like, some train model training and all that stuff we do in house,

27:39

but,

but,

27:41

so we we look into that.

so we we look into that.

27:43

So it's not like we are just Amazon and forget it.

So it's not like we are just Amazon and forget it.

27:46

But it is an effective way to scale business. It isn't effective way to run. Yeah. It's just like crazy that

But it is an effective way to scale business. It isn't effective way to run. Yeah. It's just like crazy that

27:53

It's crazy that it always freaks me out a little bit that, like, we use cloudflare,

It's crazy that it always freaks me out a little bit that, like, we use cloudflare,

27:58

and I remember one time cloudflare went out and, like, our website was dead. And so was, like, a quarter of the internet.

and I remember one time cloudflare went out and, like, our website was dead. And so was, like, a quarter of the internet.

28:06

Yeah.

Yeah.

28:07

Yeah. It's it is,

Yeah. It's it is,

28:10

this concentration.

this concentration.

28:11

It is kind of scary.

It is kind of scary.

28:14

Yeah.

Yeah.

28:16

It freaks me out a little bit.

It freaks me out a little bit.

28:18

Yeah. It it has its benefits, but it is, yeah,

Yeah. It it has its benefits, but it is, yeah,

28:22

a lot of places have single point of failure for significant portions of our,

a lot of places have single point of failure for significant portions of our,

28:28

infrastructure. Are you, and we'll wrap up here in a second. But,

infrastructure. Are you, and we'll wrap up here in a second. But,

28:33

I, I asked you about Hemingway earlier.

I, I asked you about Hemingway earlier.

28:36

Do you do you view them as competitors at all?

Do you do you view them as competitors at all?

28:41

Not really. No. They they they do something that's similar and something that's basically part of what we do and,

Not really. No. They they they do something that's similar and something that's basically part of what we do and,

28:47

number of people use both products simultaneously.

number of people use both products simultaneously.

28:50

So we don't use them as a competitor because they don't take business from us.

So we don't use them as a competitor because they don't take business from us.

28:56

So yeah, so it's not like Who do you view as a competitor?

So yeah, so it's not like Who do you view as a competitor?

29:00

Who do we view as a competitor?

Who do we view as a competitor?

29:02

Well, the biggest one is complacency. Just people not realizing that they can benefit from this. I think that that's the biggest thing. That's by far bigger than any any other competitor.

Well, the biggest one is complacency. Just people not realizing that they can benefit from this. I think that that's the biggest thing. That's by far bigger than any any other competitor.

29:14

But other than that, Once you get to a certain size,

But other than that, Once you get to a certain size,

29:18

everybody becomes a potential competitor.

everybody becomes a potential competitor.

29:21

Because, you know, when you look at big tech companies, they all

Because, you know, when you look at big tech companies, they all

29:25

compete in some ways and all do some things that are similar or the same. So that's that's kind of the mindset that basically at any point, anybody can become a computer. Yeah. But are there any I've never seen any, like, upstarts or any small companies try to compete with you guys. Is there is there many?

compete in some ways and all do some things that are similar or the same. So that's that's kind of the mindset that basically at any point, anybody can become a computer. Yeah. But are there any I've never seen any, like, upstarts or any small companies try to compete with you guys. Is there is there many?

29:42

There's some,

There's some,

29:43

but most are,

but most are,

29:46

focusing on either niche, like,

focusing on either niche, like,

29:49

primarily for a specific market.

primarily for a specific market.

29:53

And, I think that's that's a good way to start. And, obviously, we're we're watching them and and seeing what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong, and so on.

And, I think that's that's a good way to start. And, obviously, we're we're watching them and and seeing what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong, and so on.

30:04

They're they're they're similar products,

They're they're they're similar products,

30:06

Microsoft, I think, has a similar product, but again, it it only does part of what we do

Microsoft, I think, has a similar product, but again, it it only does part of what we do

30:12

so it doesn't take away much business from us, if any.

so it doesn't take away much business from us, if any.

30:15

So so yeah. So I wouldn't I wouldn't say that there are any kind of direct competitors at this point.

So so yeah. So I wouldn't I wouldn't say that there are any kind of direct competitors at this point.

30:21

And,

And,

30:22

I'm not too worried about competition frankly because it's just such a new field,

I'm not too worried about competition frankly because it's just such a new field,

30:27

that most of the market is just untouched by anybody. Cool. Well, thanks for coming on. I'm gonna,

that most of the market is just untouched by anybody. Cool. Well, thanks for coming on. I'm gonna,

30:33

we're gonna wrap up now, and, I'm gonna let you know when this is live. It should be live in, like,

we're gonna wrap up now, and, I'm gonna let you know when this is live. It should be live in, like,

30:38

a week, I think. But I appreciate you coming on. It means a lot.

a week, I think. But I appreciate you coming on. It means a lot.

30:42

Great. Thank you. Thank you so much for having.

Great. Thank you. Thank you so much for having.

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