00:00

Alright. This is part two of the episode with Jeremy Kifan. He is the first employee yet tiny. He was there from the beginning when they turned five million dollars of equity into roughly five hundred million dollars business value and took the company public just by buying businesses. So last time we asked him, you know, about those early days, about the first business that they bought, the mistakes they made, the lessons they learned. This episode is different. Now we're asking, if I was doing tiny today, how would I do it? How can I do the same thing that they did? What what businesses would I buy? What trends? What opportunities does he see? And he tells us the single best investment opportunity he sees today and why he's putting his money behind that. So this is a fascinating episode part two with Jeremy Giffen. Enjoy.

Alright. This is part two of the episode with Jeremy Kifan. He is the first employee yet tiny. He was there from the beginning when they turned five million dollars of equity into roughly five hundred million dollars business value and took the company public just by buying businesses. So last time we asked him, you know, about those early days, about the first business that they bought, the mistakes they made, the lessons they learned. This episode is different. Now we're asking, if I was doing tiny today, how would I do it? How can I do the same thing that they did? What what businesses would I buy? What trends? What opportunities does he see? And he tells us the single best investment opportunity he sees today and why he's putting his money behind that. So this is a fascinating episode part two with Jeremy Giffen. Enjoy.

00:47

So I wanna ask you about opportunities. So what business opportunities

So I wanna ask you about opportunities. So what business opportunities

00:51

trends,

trends,

00:53

or ideas do you have that people who are listening can kind of expand their their scope. Right? I remember when I was trying to be an entrepreneur, of the big, big problems I had was I only thought the world was this big, tiny little circle, and I was only looking for opportunities in the inside by tiny circle. And it was only when I listed the podcast And I kinda wish MFM is a podcast. I wish existed at the time, but it's like only when I would listen to certain people talk or hang out at a dinner, I would hear some idea that was not something I'd ever considered. So my circle got bigger and bigger and bigger. And then the more that circle got bigger, the more opportunities I saw. So I wanna go through a couple of trans or opportunities you see. So if I told you,

or ideas do you have that people who are listening can kind of expand their their scope. Right? I remember when I was trying to be an entrepreneur, of the big, big problems I had was I only thought the world was this big, tiny little circle, and I was only looking for opportunities in the inside by tiny circle. And it was only when I listed the podcast And I kinda wish MFM is a podcast. I wish existed at the time, but it's like only when I would listen to certain people talk or hang out at a dinner, I would hear some idea that was not something I'd ever considered. So my circle got bigger and bigger and bigger. And then the more that circle got bigger, the more opportunities I saw. So I wanna go through a couple of trans or opportunities you see. So if I told you,

01:28

what are the juiciest opportunities that you see right now that somebody could, could do or that you know, you think a smart person could go go for?

what are the juiciest opportunities that you see right now that somebody could, could do or that you know, you think a smart person could go go for?

01:37

The, like, second most interesting opportunity. I what I'd be doing if I wasn't if I wasn't,

The, like, second most interesting opportunity. I what I'd be doing if I wasn't if I wasn't,

01:41

raising a fund to to do these these buyouts,

raising a fund to to do these these buyouts,

01:44

it would be

it would be

01:45

finding people with audiences

finding people with audiences

01:47

and either buying businesses for them or building businesses for them.

and either buying businesses for them or building businesses for them.

01:51

So I think that I think it's like a anomaly, like, the business is in its toddler stage,

So I think that I think it's like a anomaly, like, the business is in its toddler stage,

01:58

that the way most people with audiences monetize is through ad reads or sponsorships. I think it's kind of like Hollywood when you, you know, if you're a big star, you'd get paid to to hold up a glass of Coca Cola or something. And I think every,

that the way most people with audiences monetize is through ad reads or sponsorships. I think it's kind of like Hollywood when you, you know, if you're a big star, you'd get paid to to hold up a glass of Coca Cola or something. And I think every,

02:11

person with an audience will eventually the money that they make from equity in a business that they own will massively dwarf the money that they make from ad rates, or or sponsorship reads. But the big problem here is, like, generally, if you're a great podcaster or content creator, The last thing you wanna do is buy a business for one, like, that's risking capital, that's hard, or even start and run a business.

person with an audience will eventually the money that they make from equity in a business that they own will massively dwarf the money that they make from ad rates, or or sponsorship reads. But the big problem here is, like, generally, if you're a great podcaster or content creator, The last thing you wanna do is buy a business for one, like, that's risking capital, that's hard, or even start and run a business.

02:32

And so I think there's a big opportunity

And so I think there's a big opportunity

02:35

to basically

to basically

02:36

build a business around someone with an audience and come to them and say, look, like, I will be the CEO of this thing. I think, like,

build a business around someone with an audience and come to them and say, look, like, I will be the CEO of this thing. I think, like,

02:43

you know,

you know,

02:44

this is the perfect product for you guys to, like, really organically use and like and talk about for a long time, and I will run it, and, you know, we'll split the equity or something like that.

this is the perfect product for you guys to, like, really organically use and like and talk about for a long time, and I will run it, and, you know, we'll split the equity or something like that.

02:53

You know, Joe rogan did this on it and sold that company for for for a lot of money. And there's other examples, Doug Demiro, with his, cars and bids and people are starting to do this, but it's still very early. And I think that, like, if I was just gonna start a business de novo, I would say, okay.

You know, Joe rogan did this on it and sold that company for for for a lot of money. And there's other examples, Doug Demiro, with his, cars and bids and people are starting to do this, but it's still very early. And I think that, like, if I was just gonna start a business de novo, I would say, okay.

03:09

What's who are content creators that I really like and what is the perfect product for them, and then just, like, make it easy. You know? It's a pretty low risk proposition for you guys, for example.

What's who are content creators that I really like and what is the perfect product for them, and then just, like, make it easy. You know? It's a pretty low risk proposition for you guys, for example.

03:19

But if you do it right, like, even if an, like, with an audience of your size, you can have nine figure exits, you know, over four or five years, and that'll obviously dwarf all the money you make from advertising. If anyone wants to do this, sean at seanbury dot com, feel free to hit me up.

But if you do it right, like, even if an, like, with an audience of your size, you can have nine figure exits, you know, over four or five years, and that'll obviously dwarf all the money you make from advertising. If anyone wants to do this, sean at seanbury dot com, feel free to hit me up.

03:33

By the way, this is how, tiny's doing this, Matina, which is the the, the drink they're doing with Huberman. They bought a Yerba mate company, and then they he's he loves Mate, and he's been drinking it for a long time. It's a perfect type of product. So they did that for him where if Huberman was like, and now I'm gonna take a break from my science stuff to go

By the way, this is how, tiny's doing this, Matina, which is the the, the drink they're doing with Huberman. They bought a Yerba mate company, and then they he's he loves Mate, and he's been drinking it for a long time. It's a perfect type of product. So they did that for him where if Huberman was like, and now I'm gonna take a break from my science stuff to go

03:51

become a searcher and go find a business, a PE deal to do. Like, that'd be crazy for but tiny doing it makes sense. They also did it with James Clear. They built the habits app. Right? So so you know, another app versus Adri type of thing. So I think they're executing on it well. This is also how congo brands

become a searcher and go find a business, a PE deal to do. Like, that'd be crazy for but tiny doing it makes sense. They also did it with James Clear. They built the habits app. Right? So so you know, another app versus Adri type of thing. So I think they're executing on it well. This is also how congo brands

04:08

build prime. So they

build prime. So they

04:09

they did a lot of new and then they were like, okay, cool. We're gonna do prime. They went and pitched Logan Paul and KSI, and they were like, hey, you guys are gonna be the promotion engine of this. You get equity.

they did a lot of new and then they were like, okay, cool. We're gonna do prime. They went and pitched Logan Paul and KSI, and they were like, hey, you guys are gonna be the promotion engine of this. You get equity.

04:19

You know, significant equity in this, and we're gonna be the operational back end for this. And we know we know how to do this. We can build a, in their case, what's probably gonna be a ten billion dollar plus company off of that that brand. Yeah. It's it's definitely starting, but I think and, like, the churning group has been very good at it with, you know, they did Doug Demiro and,

You know, significant equity in this, and we're gonna be the operational back end for this. And we know we know how to do this. We can build a, in their case, what's probably gonna be a ten billion dollar plus company off of that that brand. Yeah. It's it's definitely starting, but I think and, like, the churning group has been very good at it with, you know, they did Doug Demiro and,

04:38

Stephen Renella

Stephen Renella

04:40

with the the hunting stuff. And it's definitely starting to happen, but I I think, like, a more, you know,

with the the hunting stuff. And it's definitely starting to happen, but I I think, like, a more, you know,

04:46

This is a little bit exaggerated, but I think most people in a YC batch could find a podcaster and just say, okay. You're gonna be the audience cofounder for this thing, and we're gonna give you thirty percent or something. And we're gonna work with you, and it's gonna be a product that you can sell very organically.

This is a little bit exaggerated, but I think most people in a YC batch could find a podcaster and just say, okay. You're gonna be the audience cofounder for this thing, and we're gonna give you thirty percent or something. And we're gonna work with you, and it's gonna be a product that you can sell very organically.

05:01

And because the the the broad thesis is that these audiences are still super underpriced. Basically,

And because the the the broad thesis is that these audiences are still super underpriced. Basically,

05:06

that the equity you're giving up is you'll be more than compensated for. And I think that'll last for for for quite a long time. And the long tail is really good too. Right? Like, you could do it with a very niche YouTuber,

that the equity you're giving up is you'll be more than compensated for. And I think that'll last for for for quite a long time. And the long tail is really good too. Right? Like, you could do it with a very niche YouTuber,

05:17

and and still sell a more expensive product or or or do it multiple times or whatever, and I basically just think everyone with an audience will eventually have some really tightly integrated organic product to sell. Love it. Alright. So that's a great opportunity, which is go find a contact creator who's got a, like, a, a great audience, high trust, and basically buy or build the perfect business for them.

and and still sell a more expensive product or or or do it multiple times or whatever, and I basically just think everyone with an audience will eventually have some really tightly integrated organic product to sell. Love it. Alright. So that's a great opportunity, which is go find a contact creator who's got a, like, a, a great audience, high trust, and basically buy or build the perfect business for them.

05:37

And have them be your audience co founder. I think that's a it's basically an, really unfair distribution advantage. You could generate for yourself. By doing that. Alright. Love that. What's an what's another one? One other trend that I'm just really bullish on is,

And have them be your audience co founder. I think that's a it's basically an, really unfair distribution advantage. You could generate for yourself. By doing that. Alright. Love that. What's an what's another one? One other trend that I'm just really bullish on is,

05:51

basically, the idea that everything in the modern world is poison and toxic. I live in New York, like, the air is making me dumber. The water is, like, ruining my hormones,

basically, the idea that everything in the modern world is poison and toxic. I live in New York, like, the air is making me dumber. The water is, like, ruining my hormones,

06:02

all the food that I eat at any restaurant is like full of seed oils and, you know, everything that I eat is like some combination of soy, corn, and wheat. And the wheat is all sprayed in glycophate. Like, just everything is really bad for you. But it's like this huge, and I'm kind of a freak about it. Like, I have water filters and air filters and buy all this specific food and stuff, but it's a it's a really mentally taxing.

all the food that I eat at any restaurant is like full of seed oils and, you know, everything that I eat is like some combination of soy, corn, and wheat. And the wheat is all sprayed in glycophate. Like, just everything is really bad for you. But it's like this huge, and I'm kind of a freak about it. Like, I have water filters and air filters and buy all this specific food and stuff, but it's a it's a really mentally taxing.

06:23

And I really wish I think it could even just take the form of, like, the wire cutter, but for you know, these are products that are not gonna kill you. And and the thing is it's such an nefarious problem that, like, it runs the gamut. It's like, clothes that isn't made out of polyester, bedding that isn't bad for you cleaning products. Like, you could do every single thing in the house. I would love to have a wire cutter kind of thing, which is a great business for just, like, this is the version of this thing that is not gonna kill you.

And I really wish I think it could even just take the form of, like, the wire cutter, but for you know, these are products that are not gonna kill you. And and the thing is it's such an nefarious problem that, like, it runs the gamut. It's like, clothes that isn't made out of polyester, bedding that isn't bad for you cleaning products. Like, you could do every single thing in the house. I would love to have a wire cutter kind of thing, which is a great business for just, like, this is the version of this thing that is not gonna kill you.

06:50

Dude check this out. So,

Dude check this out. So,

06:52

go to live dash oasis dot com.

go to live dash oasis dot com.

06:55

I found this website the other day. My coworker sent it to me, and it's, they say, do you know what's in your water? Ninety percent of the water sources contain toxins, microplastics, and other contaminants,

I found this website the other day. My coworker sent it to me, and it's, they say, do you know what's in your water? Ninety percent of the water sources contain toxins, microplastics, and other contaminants,

07:06

and then they rank which water

and then they rank which water

07:09

as in, the cities, but also which water bottles

as in, the cities, but also which water bottles

07:13

have, like, the water the water brand. I see one that I used to have. It's very bad. It says out of one hundred, it's in a very bad penny. Well, that's the thing. Right? Even you try you think you've done it, and then it turns out the thing you bought doesn't even work. Like, it's very complicated.

have, like, the water the water brand. I see one that I used to have. It's very bad. It says out of one hundred, it's in a very bad penny. Well, that's the thing. Right? Even you try you think you've done it, and then it turns out the thing you bought doesn't even work. Like, it's very complicated.

07:28

Well, I and I go to this and, like, I'm scared because I also see the thing that I have, and it says bad.

Well, I and I go to this and, like, I'm scared because I also see the thing that I have, and it says bad.

07:34

And then you click it, and they make you pay five dollars. And this is, definitely a thing that I purchased recently. I'm, like, fuck. I gotta see which water bottle. Like, you click one. It's, like, sad.

And then you click it, and they make you pay five dollars. And this is, definitely a thing that I purchased recently. I'm, like, fuck. I gotta see which water bottle. Like, you click one. It's, like, sad.

07:45

Yeah. Horrible

Yeah. Horrible

07:47

I just want, like, okay, like, I need a shampoo. What is the one that, like, Huberman and Atia and Rhonda Patrick all agree on? And I'll just buy that one, you know. Yeah. And I can I think that can exist for almost every single thing in your house? Ask Sean why he's drinking that water. I know why. We we hosted this event, this camp MFM event, and it's we do it at mister Beast House. So we're in, like, remote North Carolina somewhere

I just want, like, okay, like, I need a shampoo. What is the one that, like, Huberman and Atia and Rhonda Patrick all agree on? And I'll just buy that one, you know. Yeah. And I can I think that can exist for almost every single thing in your house? Ask Sean why he's drinking that water. I know why. We we hosted this event, this camp MFM event, and it's we do it at mister Beast House. So we're in, like, remote North Carolina somewhere

08:10

And, we all show up. And this billionaire shows up. He's got, like, you know, his security guard with him or whatever.

And, we all show up. And this billionaire shows up. He's got, like, you know, his security guard with him or whatever.

08:15

And I'm just fasted up like, oh, how does this travel. It flew in private. He's got a security guard, but then the thing it really stood out was he said security guard carries this case of waters. So we had Fiji bottles of water, which is like it's in a plastic. And you probably got that because you thought you're being fancy. You were you wanted to make a good impression. You'd be so impressed with my choice here at Fiji. Like, I went I went for it. And instead, he's got his own, like, aquapona

And I'm just fasted up like, oh, how does this travel. It flew in private. He's got a security guard, but then the thing it really stood out was he said security guard carries this case of waters. So we had Fiji bottles of water, which is like it's in a plastic. And you probably got that because you thought you're being fancy. You were you wanted to make a good impression. You'd be so impressed with my choice here at Fiji. Like, I went I went for it. And instead, he's got his own, like, aquapona

08:38

glass bottles. And he was just he'd always be drinking. He didn't say anything, but I was like, hey, what are you doing? That except except he made the noise whenever you when he's when when he saw you chicken out of the eat it. Yeah. Oh, like Joe, what are you?

glass bottles. And he was just he'd always be drinking. He didn't say anything, but I was like, hey, what are you doing? That except except he made the noise whenever you when he's when when he saw you chicken out of the eat it. Yeah. Oh, like Joe, what are you?

08:51

I switched to Aquapana for my drinking water for my family. I bought an Athena shower head filter. So because the other thing is like, oh, you're drinking one thing, but then you'll go shower

I switched to Aquapana for my drinking water for my family. I bought an Athena shower head filter. So because the other thing is like, oh, you're drinking one thing, but then you'll go shower

09:00

bathe your naked body and tap and, like, the dirtiest tap water with like a thirty year old, you know, shower head in my house. And so if, a f I n a dot com, I bought a shower head from there. There's, like, filters that water. And so I'm just like one by one replacing different parts of my my house to try to try to get rid of some of the the bad stuff. Yeah. The traveling with a crate of mineral water. That's a that's a good that's a good way to spend money. I like that.

bathe your naked body and tap and, like, the dirtiest tap water with like a thirty year old, you know, shower head in my house. And so if, a f I n a dot com, I bought a shower head from there. There's, like, filters that water. And so I'm just like one by one replacing different parts of my my house to try to try to get rid of some of the the bad stuff. Yeah. The traveling with a crate of mineral water. That's a that's a good that's a good way to spend money. I like that.

09:26

Alright. So two good ones. I like I like the wire cutter for products that don't kill you, by the way. It's It's just wirecutter is kinda like value based. Yeah. And in this case, it's health based. And I think that's just like a such a simple model that somebody could do. It's probably like

Alright. So two good ones. I like I like the wire cutter for products that don't kill you, by the way. It's It's just wirecutter is kinda like value based. Yeah. And in this case, it's health based. And I think that's just like a such a simple model that somebody could do. It's probably like

09:39

ten years of awesome execution and real, like, love and care. Like, the only the right person should start this business. It's not like anybody can do it, but I do wish somebody did mean, examine did it really well for supplements. Like, it it certainly can be done. It's just, I would know. I would use it every day. Hey. Real quick, you know, one of the cool parts about what we're doing is that people have reached out and told me that they've built actual million dollar businesses, made their first million off an idea they heard on the show. That is crazy. That's wild. That's why we wanna do the show. And we wanna see more of that. One of the questions we get asked over and over again is is there some kind of idea database or spreadsheet

ten years of awesome execution and real, like, love and care. Like, the only the right person should start this business. It's not like anybody can do it, but I do wish somebody did mean, examine did it really well for supplements. Like, it it certainly can be done. It's just, I would know. I would use it every day. Hey. Real quick, you know, one of the cool parts about what we're doing is that people have reached out and told me that they've built actual million dollar businesses, made their first million off an idea they heard on the show. That is crazy. That's wild. That's why we wanna do the show. And we wanna see more of that. One of the questions we get asked over and over again is is there some kind of idea database or spreadsheet

10:13

where we list out all the different business ideas that we've talked about. Well, the answer is finally, yes, the fine folks at HubSpot have dug through the archive and pulled out fifty plus business ideas and put them into a business idea database. It's totally free. You can click the link in the description below and get the database for you. Alright. Now back to the show. Let's do a couple more. Transit opportunities.

where we list out all the different business ideas that we've talked about. Well, the answer is finally, yes, the fine folks at HubSpot have dug through the archive and pulled out fifty plus business ideas and put them into a business idea database. It's totally free. You can click the link in the description below and get the database for you. Alright. Now back to the show. Let's do a couple more. Transit opportunities.

10:33

You had talked. I I asked you a question when we were hanging out, yesterday, which was what are the what's a business type that you really love? Maybe you guys didn't even acquisition in the space, but, like, what are categories that you really love? And you mentioned, I don't know, like, a regulation compliance type of category. Can you explain that one? Yeah. For sure. So, like, anytime a government

You had talked. I I asked you a question when we were hanging out, yesterday, which was what are the what's a business type that you really love? Maybe you guys didn't even acquisition in the space, but, like, what are categories that you really love? And you mentioned, I don't know, like, a regulation compliance type of category. Can you explain that one? Yeah. For sure. So, like, anytime a government

10:53

anywhere introduces some kind of arcane rule,

anywhere introduces some kind of arcane rule,

10:57

You have to fault you if you don't follow, you go to jail. So it's like the ultimate kind of motivation to buy. Right? And, sometimes it can be really difficult. So, you know, we looked at a bunch of examples. One one was,

You have to fault you if you don't follow, you go to jail. So it's like the ultimate kind of motivation to buy. Right? And, sometimes it can be really difficult. So, you know, we looked at a bunch of examples. One one was,

11:09

it was this great company, a software company in Italy that just did banking regulation for all make sure all the banks are compliant with all these things. And that's like an amazing business because first of all, you're going long Italian regulation, which is probably a great trade in and of itself. Stuff. But, like, in the future, Italy, it's gonna have more rules than it does today. And then aside from that, it's like a bank is not gonna rip that out. Ever.

it was this great company, a software company in Italy that just did banking regulation for all make sure all the banks are compliant with all these things. And that's like an amazing business because first of all, you're going long Italian regulation, which is probably a great trade in and of itself. Stuff. But, like, in the future, Italy, it's gonna have more rules than it does today. And then aside from that, it's like a bank is not gonna rip that out. Ever.

11:32

And it's, you know, it hits that golden criteria, which is it's relatively cheap, but mission critical. That's, like, a really great one. And there's a bunch of these. There there's all these you know, for buying a house for,

And it's, you know, it hits that golden criteria, which is it's relatively cheap, but mission critical. That's, like, a really great one. And there's a bunch of these. There there's all these you know, for buying a house for,

11:43

for a vetting tenants for,

for a vetting tenants for,

11:46

K YC and AML,

K YC and AML,

11:49

if you if you start looking for it day to day, you see it a lot. Like, I just rented a car, and there's, like, a process there where they check my license against some database, and I'm sure that's a piece of software. Like, Those are great because I love it because it's like a low lift and the downside is super high,

if you if you start looking for it day to day, you see it a lot. Like, I just rented a car, and there's, like, a process there where they check my license against some database, and I'm sure that's a piece of software. Like, Those are great because I love it because it's like a low lift and the downside is super high,

12:04

and you don't really wanna mess with it once you've got it working.

and you don't really wanna mess with it once you've got it working.

12:08

And the other interesting thing about them is that exists for every country, at least every western country. And so you can go find the software that does that for

And the other interesting thing about them is that exists for every country, at least every western country. And so you can go find the software that does that for

12:17

you know, Europe or or one specific country or whatever, and there's gonna be multiple versions of those. Even Canada, like, Canada has different rules than America, and so that's either it's, you know, two different software products or two different companies. So I love I love those those businesses as well, and they're also, like, fairly AI resilient. I think because

you know, Europe or or one specific country or whatever, and there's gonna be multiple versions of those. Even Canada, like, Canada has different rules than America, and so that's either it's, you know, two different software products or two different companies. So I love I love those those businesses as well, and they're also, like, fairly AI resilient. I think because

12:35

it's really again, it's like medical stuff. It's really high downside. So you don't wanna, like, trust it with AI, and then it turns out you weren't in compliance, and you're gonna get a huge fine or go to prison or something. Yeah. I, I made a bet recently in the regular

it's really again, it's like medical stuff. It's really high downside. So you don't wanna, like, trust it with AI, and then it turns out you weren't in compliance, and you're gonna get a huge fine or go to prison or something. Yeah. I, I made a bet recently in the regular

12:48

a regulatory compliance,

a regulatory compliance,

12:50

type of space. And I was, like, know, we have this thing on the pod that we talk about. One chart businesses, which is, like, a business that you don't need a a full business plan for. You could just put one chart up on the screen and you say, that's why I'm doing this. And,

type of space. And I was, like, know, we have this thing on the pod that we talk about. One chart businesses, which is, like, a business that you don't need a a full business plan for. You could just put one chart up on the screen and you say, that's why I'm doing this. And,

13:02

the one in this case was basically that regulation only goes in one direction. It only goes up into the right. Nobody ever rolls back any of these needs it's only gonna increase. And so if you can become, you know, maybe the go to provider or, like, a key piece of software in a space, like, that is

the one in this case was basically that regulation only goes in one direction. It only goes up into the right. Nobody ever rolls back any of these needs it's only gonna increase. And so if you can become, you know, maybe the go to provider or, like, a key piece of software in a space, like, that is

13:18

It is just such a bet such a bet you wanna make because

It is just such a bet such a bet you wanna make because

13:21

you know that regulation only goes up. You know that, like, there's compliance

you know that regulation only goes up. You know that, like, there's compliance

13:25

compliance requirements They don't just say, yeah, you know what? Forget them. You don't need all that compliance stuff anymore. Like, this is never gonna happen. It's only gonna go in one direction. And like you said,

compliance requirements They don't just say, yeah, you know what? Forget them. You don't need all that compliance stuff anymore. Like, this is never gonna happen. It's only gonna go in one direction. And like you said,

13:35

you do it or you don't get customers or you get go to jail. It's like, well, it's a pretty strong motivator. So, like, you know, I think people are gonna wanna either get customers or avoid jail. And,

you do it or you don't get customers or you get go to jail. It's like, well, it's a pretty strong motivator. So, like, you know, I think people are gonna wanna either get customers or avoid jail. And,

13:45

it's just like the right type of space to be. And it's the type of space that twenty four year old me would not have known or appreciated that that's a better business to go into than what I was doing at that time, which was like dating apps, social network, like,

it's just like the right type of space to be. And it's the type of space that twenty four year old me would not have known or appreciated that that's a better business to go into than what I was doing at that time, which was like dating apps, social network, like,

13:57

cool, new, sexy, you know, thing. And, now I'm like, kinda like what's sexy now is like a knee length skirt. It's like, you know, show me a compliance business, and I'll I'll show you my interest. The other big opportunity

cool, new, sexy, you know, thing. And, now I'm like, kinda like what's sexy now is like a knee length skirt. It's like, you know, show me a compliance business, and I'll I'll show you my interest. The other big opportunity

14:09

for someone who who's wanting to start a business is, like, you can front run these things. Right? You can see what's gonna pass. You can see what's just passed. And you can be the first provider for that and have a huge leg up, especially if it's a fairly niche thing, but you could very well be the only option for a couple of years, which is a huge advantage. Right? Why don't you start these things instead of just investing in them?

for someone who who's wanting to start a business is, like, you can front run these things. Right? You can see what's gonna pass. You can see what's just passed. And you can be the first provider for that and have a huge leg up, especially if it's a fairly niche thing, but you could very well be the only option for a couple of years, which is a huge advantage. Right? Why don't you start these things instead of just investing in them?

14:31

I don't,

I don't,

14:32

I don't like operating businesses. I'm not I don't think I'm very good at and it's not what I enjoy doing. And so I think everyone should try and do, like, really stay in their zone of genius as much as they can. I think that it's, like, personally very good and also good for the world if that happens. And so I'd rather, like,

I don't like operating businesses. I'm not I don't think I'm very good at and it's not what I enjoy doing. And so I think everyone should try and do, like, really stay in their zone of genius as much as they can. I think that it's, like, personally very good and also good for the world if that happens. And so I'd rather, like,

14:49

be allocate capital to the because I think I'm good at allocating capital person who maybe needs capital and is really excited about building something. Alright. Two more things on here. The first, I I actually don't have context on this. But I'm very interested just because of the title, the boy versus the guy.

be allocate capital to the because I think I'm good at allocating capital person who maybe needs capital and is really excited about building something. Alright. Two more things on here. The first, I I actually don't have context on this. But I'm very interested just because of the title, the boy versus the guy.

15:04

Yeah. So

Yeah. So

15:06

the boy versus the guy. So,

the boy versus the guy. So,

15:08

because it could go a bunch of ways. It could go a bunch of ways. Yeah. Yeah. There and and there are a lot of different readings, especially depending on what co coast you're on.

because it could go a bunch of ways. It could go a bunch of ways. Yeah. Yeah. There and and there are a lot of different readings, especially depending on what co coast you're on.

15:17

Yeah. Basically, it's it's, like, it's the idea of,

Yeah. Basically, it's it's, like, it's the idea of,

15:21

being a lieutenant or being, like, a protege effectively would be the the the class your way to say it, I guess.

being a lieutenant or being, like, a protege effectively would be the the the class your way to say it, I guess.

15:27

And so, you know,

And so, you know,

15:29

generally, there's, like, there's the trusted lieutenant

generally, there's, like, there's the trusted lieutenant

15:33

who is,

who is,

15:35

you know, just the solid number two, really important,

you know, just the solid number two, really important,

15:39

but their whole identity is being, like, a lieutenant to the number one person.

but their whole identity is being, like, a lieutenant to the number one person.

15:44

And then there's this other genre, which is like,

And then there's this other genre, which is like,

15:46

on the west coast, it takes shape as a chief of staff, a lot,

on the west coast, it takes shape as a chief of staff, a lot,

15:50

where it's just you're kind of this, like, you're this young rising superstar.

where it's just you're kind of this, like, you're this young rising superstar.

15:54

There's this sense of, like, you're really gunning for number one.

There's this sense of, like, you're really gunning for number one.

15:58

And and

And and

16:00

the idea, like, the the what made me notice this, originally was, especially in the valley,

the idea, like, the the what made me notice this, originally was, especially in the valley,

16:06

every, like, billionaire has one or two really young smart

every, like, billionaire has one or two really young smart

16:11

boys generally who just kind of, like, float around them. And there's this kind of task agreement of, like, you come work for me for two or three years. You shadow me. You you you're my apprentice.

boys generally who just kind of, like, float around them. And there's this kind of task agreement of, like, you come work for me for two or three years. You shadow me. You you you're my apprentice.

16:20

And then I will back you and, like, open doors for you.

And then I will back you and, like, open doors for you.

16:23

And it was kinda funny. Like, at at some point, I, you know, I was in, like, social situations where it's like, oh, like, it's kind of like flying under the the flag of a lord or something. Like, everyone is, you know, the everyone is, like, you know, going on the private jets of these principles or whatever, and they themselves are probably broke. But, like, they very much live this lifestyle because they're, like, under the protection of a lord,

And it was kinda funny. Like, at at some point, I, you know, I was in, like, social situations where it's like, oh, like, it's kind of like flying under the the flag of a lord or something. Like, everyone is, you know, the everyone is, like, you know, going on the private jets of these principles or whatever, and they themselves are probably broke. But, like, they very much live this lifestyle because they're, like, under the protection of a lord,

16:44

And so I think it's like there there's another, a new kind of piece of information that I've figured out about this is it's also an age gap thing. So if you're within twenty years of the founder or the number one person in the organization, you're almost always gonna be a guy

And so I think it's like there there's another, a new kind of piece of information that I've figured out about this is it's also an age gap thing. So if you're within twenty years of the founder or the number one person in the organization, you're almost always gonna be a guy

17:01

And if you think of, like, all the great firms or even, you know, companies where

And if you think of, like, all the great firms or even, you know, companies where

17:06

someone has become the new number one, there's almost always at least a twenty year gap between the person just because

someone has become the new number one, there's almost always at least a twenty year gap between the person just because

17:12

otherwise you're too close.

otherwise you're too close.

17:14

And so I think that dictates it a lot as well.

And so I think that dictates it a lot as well.

17:17

But it's these two different things of, the other way to put it would be that, like, the principal really sees something in this young person and wants to know, can tell they're, like, on a rocketship, they're not gonna be an employee forever or whatever, but it's like, you give me two or three years, and I can really accelerate things for you. And I think, like, that pairs very nicely with the cold email thing, which is, you know, I I generally think, like, if you wanna start a company, you should just start a company. Don't go, like, work somewhere to get experience or whatever, But I think this might be the sole exception, which it can really open doors of either investment or vouching or connections or whatever. And, you know, there's lots of examples of this. Like,

But it's these two different things of, the other way to put it would be that, like, the principal really sees something in this young person and wants to know, can tell they're, like, on a rocketship, they're not gonna be an employee forever or whatever, but it's like, you give me two or three years, and I can really accelerate things for you. And I think, like, that pairs very nicely with the cold email thing, which is, you know, I I generally think, like, if you wanna start a company, you should just start a company. Don't go, like, work somewhere to get experience or whatever, But I think this might be the sole exception, which it can really open doors of either investment or vouching or connections or whatever. And, you know, there's lots of examples of this. Like,

17:52

I know, like, Ben Casinocia, like, very wrote very publicly about being Reed Hoffman's chief of staff.

I know, like, Ben Casinocia, like, very wrote very publicly about being Reed Hoffman's chief of staff.

17:58

You know, Blake Masters with Peter Teal.

You know, Blake Masters with Peter Teal.

18:02

You know, Sam Altman was this to Paul Graham. Like, there's there's kind of all these examples of it. That I think are are really instructive.

You know, Sam Altman was this to Paul Graham. Like, there's there's kind of all these examples of it. That I think are are really instructive.

18:09

I just recorded an episode with Joe Lonsdale. Who was this for Peter Teel? Like, Yeah. It was basically Peter Teel's protege and now has started, I don't know, more billion dollar companies than anyone else, in the country. And and I think, you know, he's a fascinating guy because when he was eighteen, nineteen, twenty. He was an intern at PayPal. Yep. He then he was at Peter's Family Office, then he started p palantir with him, and then, you know, then eventually, you know, went on to do his own thing. And Joe's done this for a bunch of people. One of my close friends was was his his chief one of his chief of staff and it's an amazing launching pad. And if anyone out there, I'm looking for a boy.

I just recorded an episode with Joe Lonsdale. Who was this for Peter Teel? Like, Yeah. It was basically Peter Teel's protege and now has started, I don't know, more billion dollar companies than anyone else, in the country. And and I think, you know, he's a fascinating guy because when he was eighteen, nineteen, twenty. He was an intern at PayPal. Yep. He then he was at Peter's Family Office, then he started p palantir with him, and then, you know, then eventually, you know, went on to do his own thing. And Joe's done this for a bunch of people. One of my close friends was was his his chief one of his chief of staff and it's an amazing launching pad. And if anyone out there, I'm looking for a boy.

18:43

Never thought I'd say that, but under this context,

Never thought I'd say that, but under this context,

18:46

I am sure, sure enough looking for a young boy. So We need to start a we need to start a community. We'll call it, weed weed and boys.

I am sure, sure enough looking for a young boy. So We need to start a we need to start a community. We'll call it, weed weed and boys.

18:55

You're better to know this. But I've had four people who are kind of in this bucket. I I hired them when they're, let's say, between the ages of sixteen to twenty.

You're better to know this. But I've had four people who are kind of in this bucket. I I hired them when they're, let's say, between the ages of sixteen to twenty.

19:03

And, that have gone on to either become, you know, that have gone on to become millionaires and in some cases, millionaires and, like, successful content creator podcaster type of folks as well. And and it's happened four times already. So I'm looking for my family. Yeah. I think apprenticing is really underrated. You know, you think about it in the context of being like a Blacksmith or a carpenter or something, but I think for a lot of It's the single best way to learn. Hey, I've got a question. I noticed that you studied do you study philosophy at Columbia?

And, that have gone on to either become, you know, that have gone on to become millionaires and in some cases, millionaires and, like, successful content creator podcaster type of folks as well. And and it's happened four times already. So I'm looking for my family. Yeah. I think apprenticing is really underrated. You know, you think about it in the context of being like a Blacksmith or a carpenter or something, but I think for a lot of It's the single best way to learn. Hey, I've got a question. I noticed that you studied do you study philosophy at Columbia?

19:28

Yeah.

Yeah.

19:29

That so I remembered as a kid, I I saw this crazy stat that, I think it was the majority of people who scored really high on, not the bar, but the test to get into law school.

That so I remembered as a kid, I I saw this crazy stat that, I think it was the majority of people who scored really high on, not the bar, but the test to get into law school.

19:41

They actually most of them, be all set. Most of them were, they studied flat That was their their undergraduate degree. And then I saw you studied philosophy, and that's kind of an interesting way to go because now you're raising this massive hundred million plus fund

They actually most of them, be all set. Most of them were, they studied flat That was their their undergraduate degree. And then I saw you studied philosophy, and that's kind of an interesting way to go because now you're raising this massive hundred million plus fund

19:56

Did that what what did you learn in philosophy that you think is gonna help you make a good business person?

Did that what what did you learn in philosophy that you think is gonna help you make a good business person?

20:01

Yeah. I don't know. It's it's

Yeah. I don't know. It's it's

20:04

There's a big it's a big club, you know, leave it to a philosophy major to know every philosophy major, but, there's tons of names. You know, Reed Hoffman, Peter Teel, Peter Fenton,

There's a big it's a big club, you know, leave it to a philosophy major to know every philosophy major, but, there's tons of names. You know, Reed Hoffman, Peter Teel, Peter Fenton,

20:13

stuart Butterfield.

stuart Butterfield.

20:14

It's like this weirdly overrepresented thing. My favorite stat about philosophy may majors is that

It's like this weirdly overrepresented thing. My favorite stat about philosophy may majors is that

20:21

It's something like in the top ten percent of earners, they're the highest earning of all people. So if you take the top ten percent of every major, they're the highest earning. In general, they're not the highest earning, but, like, there's that kind of, like, group at at the far end. I don't know exactly what it is. I mean, I I can speak to my own experience. I think it's just, like,

It's something like in the top ten percent of earners, they're the highest earning of all people. So if you take the top ten percent of every major, they're the highest earning. In general, they're not the highest earning, but, like, there's that kind of, like, group at at the far end. I don't know exactly what it is. I mean, I I can speak to my own experience. I think it's just, like,

20:38

If you're gonna spend

If you're gonna spend

20:40

four years thinking about a set of questions,

four years thinking about a set of questions,

20:43

thinking about the most fundamental questions is just really peeling. That's certainly what it was to me. I don't think I really learned anything,

thinking about the most fundamental questions is just really peeling. That's certainly what it was to me. I don't think I really learned anything,

20:53

that's super it it's it's funny. Like,

that's super it it's it's funny. Like,

20:56

you know,

you know,

20:57

I'm Canadian. I had to get a visa to be in America.

I'm Canadian. I had to get a visa to be in America.

21:01

And, a big thing thing with visas is, like, is what you studied relevant to what you're working on.

And, a big thing thing with visas is, like, is what you studied relevant to what you're working on.

21:07

And, you know, the answer for philosophy as far as the US government is concerned is no. It's not relevant to anything, but I'm always like, well, no, it's relevant to everything. Like, how should I live? What should I, you know, what should I hope for? What can I know? These are relevant to every field.

And, you know, the answer for philosophy as far as the US government is concerned is no. It's not relevant to anything, but I'm always like, well, no, it's relevant to everything. Like, how should I live? What should I, you know, what should I hope for? What can I know? These are relevant to every field.

21:20

And I I think maybe the other way maybe the other cut at it is it's just like being in the most fundamental and the most abstract versus, like, learning,

And I I think maybe the other way maybe the other cut at it is it's just like being in the most fundamental and the most abstract versus, like, learning,

21:28

you know, something more applied.

you know, something more applied.

21:31

It's something about that just kind of draws these very kind of curious,

It's something about that just kind of draws these very kind of curious,

21:36

I I I guess, like, intellectual, and I don't really mean that in a complimentary way. Just, like, people who think, like, to think a lot.

I I I guess, like, intellectual, and I don't really mean that in a complimentary way. Just, like, people who think, like, to think a lot.

21:43

But there's also a big difference between people who study philosophy in undergrad and then move on and people who study philosophy for their whole lives. Like, those people are really people who just, like, they they thought they they think, like, you know what? I actually wanna think about, like, what is a good way to live for the rest of my life? And I think that's a little crazy. Right? Like, some point, you wanna go, okay. I've, like, explored this. Now it's time to go go move on.

But there's also a big difference between people who study philosophy in undergrad and then move on and people who study philosophy for their whole lives. Like, those people are really people who just, like, they they thought they they think, like, you know what? I actually wanna think about, like, what is a good way to live for the rest of my life? And I think that's a little crazy. Right? Like, some point, you wanna go, okay. I've, like, explored this. Now it's time to go go move on.

22:05

I wanted to ask you about,

I wanted to ask you about,

22:06

holdcoast, which seem to be the new trend or people buying businesses. I think a lot of them take inspiration from tiny and what you guys did. What's your take on, you know, the hold code trend or influencers out there who are like, I own five hundred businesses, you know, like, what what's your take on all that? Bragging about how many businesses you own is really weird and probably, like, a contra signal to how good you are.

holdcoast, which seem to be the new trend or people buying businesses. I think a lot of them take inspiration from tiny and what you guys did. What's your take on, you know, the hold code trend or influencers out there who are like, I own five hundred businesses, you know, like, what what's your take on all that? Bragging about how many businesses you own is really weird and probably, like, a contra signal to how good you are.

22:28

And by the way, like, anyone who owns a lot of businesses will will and should tell you that. Like, I know Andrew would certainly if, you know, if he could have tiny with one business, that would be much better.

And by the way, like, anyone who owns a lot of businesses will will and should tell you that. Like, I know Andrew would certainly if, you know, if he could have tiny with one business, that would be much better.

22:39

And so it's always a weird thing to say, like, oh, I've acquired a hundred businesses or whatever.

And so it's always a weird thing to say, like, oh, I've acquired a hundred businesses or whatever.

22:43

I guess unless you're, like,

I guess unless you're, like,

22:45

constellation or shore capital or something where the whole point of it is that you, like, buy a million businesses.

constellation or shore capital or something where the whole point of it is that you, like, buy a million businesses.

22:51

Because, yeah, it's always better. If you can have the results from one company, that would be way better than than having to own a bunch of them. And that leads to the point about holding companies, which is the thing that people don't understand about holding companies, there's two, like, there's two real reasons why you had started a holding company versus a fund or some other structure. One is because you wanna hold everything forever,

Because, yeah, it's always better. If you can have the results from one company, that would be way better than than having to own a bunch of them. And that leads to the point about holding companies, which is the thing that people don't understand about holding companies, there's two, like, there's two real reasons why you had started a holding company versus a fund or some other structure. One is because you wanna hold everything forever,

23:09

and I think that's a fairly faulty premise.

and I think that's a fairly faulty premise.

23:12

So usually when people think

So usually when people think

23:14

Because so people look at generally, they're looking at two places when they think about the merits of holding everything forever. They look at Buffet or they look at venture capitalists.

Because so people look at generally, they're looking at two places when they think about the merits of holding everything forever. They look at Buffet or they look at venture capitalists.

23:24

You know, you you don't wanna be the person who sold Google at the IPO or whatever, and and and Buffet famously owns everything. Although, that's, like, not actually true. Buffet sells stuff all the time.

You know, you you don't wanna be the person who sold Google at the IPO or whatever, and and and Buffet famously owns everything. Although, that's, like, not actually true. Buffet sells stuff all the time.

23:33

To your point, Sam, about him being a little bit different than his public persona.

To your point, Sam, about him being a little bit different than his public persona.

23:38

But, like okay. So both of those groups, Buffet, is talking about railroads,

But, like okay. So both of those groups, Buffet, is talking about railroads,

23:42

insurance companies and energy companies. These are companies that ostensibly will exist for fifty or a hundred years. And venture capitalists, even more than that, they are looking specifically to find the one in a thousand company that will be a fifty year company.

insurance companies and energy companies. These are companies that ostensibly will exist for fifty or a hundred years. And venture capitalists, even more than that, they are looking specifically to find the one in a thousand company that will be a fifty year company.

23:56

But most companies are not fifty year companies, especially not five million dollar software companies, you know, Like, it's it's kind of crazy to buy a Chrome plug in and say, like, yeah. I need to own this thing for forty years.

But most companies are not fifty year companies, especially not five million dollar software companies, you know, Like, it's it's kind of crazy to buy a Chrome plug in and say, like, yeah. I need to own this thing for forty years.

24:08

It's like, no. It's first of all, like, software is really difficult. My kids will inherit this Chrome plug in.

It's like, no. It's first of all, like, software is really difficult. My kids will inherit this Chrome plug in.

24:15

Yeah. You're not buying one of two railroads in Canada. You know, like, you're you're buying the chrome plug in. And so,

Yeah. You're not buying one of two railroads in Canada. You know, like, you're you're buying the chrome plug in. And so,

24:22

first of all, just thinking, like, oh, I need to hold this forever, I think is a bit flawed. And then second of all, if you get the chance to sell it for a great price, like, that probably the way that you maximize

first of all, just thinking, like, oh, I need to hold this forever, I think is a bit flawed. And then second of all, if you get the chance to sell it for a great price, like, that probably the way that you maximize

24:31

returns.

returns.

24:32

If you're actually interested in just making the most money. And so that's one thing with holding companies.

If you're actually interested in just making the most money. And so that's one thing with holding companies.

24:37

The other is that

The other is that

24:39

I think when the more investor type start them, they really don't appreciate. A holding company is

I think when the more investor type start them, they really don't appreciate. A holding company is

24:44

a part of it is though you're holdings, the other half is a company. Like, you just run a big operating business, you know. A tiny has I can't remember. It's like north of twelve hundred employees across the portfolio. Like, That's a big business that you're running. And for most investors,

a part of it is though you're holdings, the other half is a company. Like, you just run a big operating business, you know. A tiny has I can't remember. It's like north of twelve hundred employees across the portfolio. Like, That's a big business that you're running. And for most investors,

24:59

that is a completely conscious skill. Like, if you're a good investor, the last thing you should be doing, when you meet a great you're you're not thinking, oh, you'd be as great as the CEO of a twelve hundred person company. You know? Like, generally, those are very far apart. And so what it can end up happening is you spend a ton of your time actually just operating a business, and you're not able to invest, which is the thing that you're probably the best at. And so, yeah, in general, I think they're quite they're quite overrated. And you also actually said you're, like, most Harvard guys who are trying to buy a plumbing business. They shouldn't buy a plumbing business. They just go and start a plumbing business.

that is a completely conscious skill. Like, if you're a good investor, the last thing you should be doing, when you meet a great you're you're not thinking, oh, you'd be as great as the CEO of a twelve hundred person company. You know? Like, generally, those are very far apart. And so what it can end up happening is you spend a ton of your time actually just operating a business, and you're not able to invest, which is the thing that you're probably the best at. And so, yeah, in general, I think they're quite they're quite overrated. And you also actually said you're, like, most Harvard guys who are trying to buy a plumbing business. They shouldn't buy a plumbing business. They just go and start a plumbing business.

25:29

Yeah. This one always cracks me up. It's, like, your resume is, you know, Harvard Goldman Sachs, Harvard Business School, Bridgewater,

Yeah. This one always cracks me up. It's, like, your resume is, you know, Harvard Goldman Sachs, Harvard Business School, Bridgewater,

25:38

and then it's, like, Ohio Plumbing Company.

and then it's, like, Ohio Plumbing Company.

25:41

And

And

25:42

you're always

you're always

25:43

I always think, like, I get it. I I, you know, the math works. It can be lucrative, whatever, but I always think, like, Imagine if you had, you know, you're this brilliant young person, if you had just moved to Ohio when you were eighteen and started a plumbing company, you probably control all the plumbing in the state. You know what I mean? Like, you just wipe the floor with them,

I always think, like, I get it. I I, you know, the math works. It can be lucrative, whatever, but I always think, like, Imagine if you had, you know, you're this brilliant young person, if you had just moved to Ohio when you were eighteen and started a plumbing company, you probably control all the plumbing in the state. You know what I mean? Like, you just wipe the floor with them,

26:01

and it's always weird that people wanna go through all these loops. I think a lot of it is just to make themselves feel very fancy. Like, oh, you know, I'd set up this deal and this acquisition, these investors, and stuff. But a lot of these businesses, I think if you just started them, you could really wipe floor with, with the existing competition.

and it's always weird that people wanna go through all these loops. I think a lot of it is just to make themselves feel very fancy. Like, oh, you know, I'd set up this deal and this acquisition, these investors, and stuff. But a lot of these businesses, I think if you just started them, you could really wipe floor with, with the existing competition.

26:17

You have one more thing that you're known for, which is something like the pre and post fall. Don't know what this is. Can you explain this? Somebody texted me this? They go, oh, you gotta ask about pre and post fall. So I define fall. It's like a pseudo biblical idea, but

You have one more thing that you're known for, which is something like the pre and post fall. Don't know what this is. Can you explain this? Somebody texted me this? They go, oh, you gotta ask about pre and post fall. So I define fall. It's like a pseudo biblical idea, but

26:31

I really define it as, like, appearing in your life where you've really been brought to your knees by whatever. It could be a death or a breakup or, you know, a health scare or or or bankruptcy or all these kinds of things that, like, really

I really define it as, like, appearing in your life where you've really been brought to your knees by whatever. It could be a death or a breakup or, you know, a health scare or or or bankruptcy or all these kinds of things that, like, really

26:43

just kind of

just kind of

26:44

humble you,

humble you,

26:46

truly. Not like how most people say humble, which is, like, I just got on the cover of Forbes. I'm so humble. It's like, no. You're right. It's actually the exact opposite.

truly. Not like how most people say humble, which is, like, I just got on the cover of Forbes. I'm so humble. It's like, no. You're right. It's actually the exact opposite.

26:53

But, like, truly truly humbled,

But, like, truly truly humbled,

26:56

And I really think that that changes someone,

And I really think that that changes someone,

27:00

for the rest of their life. And I think it happens to everyone.

for the rest of their life. And I think it happens to everyone.

27:03

Think it happens totally at random times. It could be early in life. It could be late in life.

Think it happens totally at random times. It could be early in life. It could be late in life.

27:08

But you can just kind of see it of, you know, the the the extreme example of this would be, like, a veteran who's been in a lot of combat. Like, nothing is really gonna shake someone who's been in a bunch of fire fight you know, and, and I think that applies too as if you've been through really hard, really dark experiences. I think a lot of entrepreneurs

But you can just kind of see it of, you know, the the the extreme example of this would be, like, a veteran who's been in a lot of combat. Like, nothing is really gonna shake someone who's been in a bunch of fire fight you know, and, and I think that applies too as if you've been through really hard, really dark experiences. I think a lot of entrepreneurs

27:26

They have their fall while they're building their business. You know, it can get really difficult and hard and lonely.

They have their fall while they're building their business. You know, it can get really difficult and hard and lonely.

27:31

And,

And,

27:33

Yeah. The best way to describe it is, like, after someone's post fall, you can just kind of see it in their eyes that they've been through worse. And so they're not gonna

Yeah. The best way to describe it is, like, after someone's post fall, you can just kind of see it in their eyes that they've been through worse. And so they're not gonna

27:43

it's just not gonna shake them that much versus somebody's pre fall. And by the way, you can become very successful. You can be late in life, but nothing bad is a really you. And and I view that as kind of a liability in some sense of if you're gonna partner or work with them of, like, boy, like, when something goes off the rails here, This might be a really big blow up because, of course, like, you know, if you're a broke kid, it's one thing. But if you, like, a high flying person, the the way in which you can blow up is far more spectacular,

it's just not gonna shake them that much versus somebody's pre fall. And by the way, you can become very successful. You can be late in life, but nothing bad is a really you. And and I view that as kind of a liability in some sense of if you're gonna partner or work with them of, like, boy, like, when something goes off the rails here, This might be a really big blow up because, of course, like, you know, if you're a broke kid, it's one thing. But if you, like, a high flying person, the the way in which you can blow up is far more spectacular,

28:08

And,

And,

28:09

and yeah, it's really just, like, have you really been humbled by life in, like, a true way? And, and I think when you look at it that way, it's quite evident that, you know,

and yeah, it's really just, like, have you really been humbled by life in, like, a true way? And, and I think when you look at it that way, it's quite evident that, you know,

28:18

people either have or haven't, and I think it makes a big difference. Do you wanna talk about the special situations,

people either have or haven't, and I think it makes a big difference. Do you wanna talk about the special situations,

28:23

distressed venture stuff, or, or do you wanna to save that?

distressed venture stuff, or, or do you wanna to save that?

28:28

Yeah. We can we can talk about that. Okay. Tell us what what is the what is what is the opportunity here?

Yeah. We can we can talk about that. Okay. Tell us what what is the what is what is the opportunity here?

28:35

Yeah. So the opportunity

Yeah. So the opportunity

28:37

is this is, like, really combines a lot of the factors that I love, which is effectively there's this whole class of venture backed companies

is this is, like, really combines a lot of the factors that I love, which is effectively there's this whole class of venture backed companies

28:44

where they raise too much money,

where they raise too much money,

28:47

in especially in twenty twenty and twenty one. And so you get this, like, strange phenomenon where you can have a business that's doing ten million dollars a year revenue and growing thirty percent a year, but maybe it raised forty or fifty million dollars.

in especially in twenty twenty and twenty one. And so you get this, like, strange phenomenon where you can have a business that's doing ten million dollars a year revenue and growing thirty percent a year, but maybe it raised forty or fifty million dollars.

29:00

And,

And,

29:01

such that, like, the founder is probably not gonna make any money because the prep stack is so high.

such that, like, the founder is probably not gonna make any money because the prep stack is so high.

29:06

And then the the other part is the investor is really not gonna make any money, not in the sense that they want to. So venture investor, they, like, they want a good investment to return the fund,

And then the the other part is the investor is really not gonna make any money, not in the sense that they want to. So venture investor, they, like, they want a good investment to return the fund,

29:16

generally.

generally.

29:17

And so it's like this weird thing where you have this great asset, you know, if if if you guys owned a business that was doing ten million dollars of revenue growing three percent a year, you'd be very happy with that. But if it's owned by a venture investor and run by a founder who's got this prep stack, the founder's not gonna make any money. The venture investor doesn't really care about it. So it's kind of this, like, in some sense, it's actually a worthless asset.

And so it's like this weird thing where you have this great asset, you know, if if if you guys owned a business that was doing ten million dollars of revenue growing three percent a year, you'd be very happy with that. But if it's owned by a venture investor and run by a founder who's got this prep stack, the founder's not gonna make any money. The venture investor doesn't really care about it. So it's kind of this, like, in some sense, it's actually a worthless asset.

29:37

And so,

And so,

29:39

you know, I we've done these deals a tiny before, and and what I'm really interested in is doing a lot more of them, personally,

you know, I we've done these deals a tiny before, and and what I'm really interested in is doing a lot more of them, personally,

29:45

And so I've been talking to a lot of founders and talking to a lot of GPUs about this. And there's just this huge opportunity, and the opportunity is really,

And so I've been talking to a lot of founders and talking to a lot of GPUs about this. And there's just this huge opportunity, and the opportunity is really,

29:53

To take a business that's because of its cap table, it's just broken. It's not working for anyone and turn it into a business that works. So, like, say the founder owns ten percent, and, you know, the prep stack is fifty million, turn it into a business where they own thirty percent, and they can run it profitably. And it can be, like, a great business A question that I always ask founders is, what would you do if you just bootstrap the singer if you own the whole thing? And generally, that's a different answer than if they were in their current situation.

To take a business that's because of its cap table, it's just broken. It's not working for anyone and turn it into a business that works. So, like, say the founder owns ten percent, and, you know, the prep stack is fifty million, turn it into a business where they own thirty percent, and they can run it profitably. And it can be, like, a great business A question that I always ask founders is, what would you do if you just bootstrap the singer if you own the whole thing? And generally, that's a different answer than if they were in their current situation.

30:20

And it's a service for the, venture investors as well because they, you know, they have to be responsible for these things. They gotta go on the board. They gotta audit them. They gotta think about them at to the a lot of these companies take up a lot of their time, and they're not the ones that are gonna drive returns. And so it's just this weird kind of vestige of the fact that venture returns have been so high that there's all this waste, like, there's these ten, twenty, thirty million dollar a year companies

And it's a service for the, venture investors as well because they, you know, they have to be responsible for these things. They gotta go on the board. They gotta audit them. They gotta think about them at to the a lot of these companies take up a lot of their time, and they're not the ones that are gonna drive returns. And so it's just this weird kind of vestige of the fact that venture returns have been so high that there's all this waste, like, there's these ten, twenty, thirty million dollar a year companies

30:42

that are not really making money for anyone. And weird situation, right, because,

that are not really making money for anyone. And weird situation, right, because,

30:47

there's nothing wrong with the business, but you can get them for cheaper than you would otherwise because there's this, like, weird second and third order incentive set. Normally, a distressed business, the business is broken. Yeah. Exactly. Here, it's that the cap table is broken. But the the goals of the investors don't line up with the realities of business. Is that right? Exactly. Exactly. Is that what you're gonna do?

there's nothing wrong with the business, but you can get them for cheaper than you would otherwise because there's this, like, weird second and third order incentive set. Normally, a distressed business, the business is broken. Yeah. Exactly. Here, it's that the cap table is broken. But the the goals of the investors don't line up with the realities of business. Is that right? Exactly. Exactly. Is that what you're gonna do?

31:07

Yeah. That's, I love special situations. I like all different types, you know, when tiny when tiny started

Yeah. That's, I love special situations. I like all different types, you know, when tiny when tiny started

31:14

bootstrap businesses were kind of a special situation,

bootstrap businesses were kind of a special situation,

31:17

and now it's way more popular.

and now it's way more popular.

31:19

I view this as well. A special situation is a really nice way to I I love a good special situation. I mean, that's that's

I view this as well. A special situation is a really nice way to I I love a good special situation. I mean, that's that's

31:26

such a better way to It's totally totally

such a better way to It's totally totally

31:29

special situation has a lot nicer the distress asset.

special situation has a lot nicer the distress asset.

31:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For for sure. But it's it's like it's like this idea of

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For for sure. But it's it's like it's like this idea of

31:38

Oh, there's all these people that want different things. And if you can just, like, arrange the bricks, so to speak, that everyone gets what they want, you can, like, unlock this puzzle.

Oh, there's all these people that want different things. And if you can just, like, arrange the bricks, so to speak, that everyone gets what they want, you can, like, unlock this puzzle.

31:47

And, like, with what I'm doing, everyone is better off. The VCs are happy. The founder is happy. Like, everyone's better off.

And, like, with what I'm doing, everyone is better off. The VCs are happy. The founder is happy. Like, everyone's better off.

31:55

And I love those. I love those situations when you can do them. And then it also to go back to our, like, initial thing. It's a very specific thing, so you're gonna come to me because you know that's what I do, and I'm gonna get stuff people don't get because I'm doing this very specific thing. And I I for my particular form of laziness,

And I love those. I love those situations when you can do them. And then it also to go back to our, like, initial thing. It's a very specific thing, so you're gonna come to me because you know that's what I do, and I'm gonna get stuff people don't get because I'm doing this very specific thing. And I I for my particular form of laziness,

32:10

I love it when people just know what I offer and then they just come to me. It makes things so much so much easier than having to go to them and convince them to do something, you know. It seems like you are like me, which I love because I like people like me, but it's also

I love it when people just know what I offer and then they just come to me. It makes things so much so much easier than having to go to them and convince them to do something, you know. It seems like you are like me, which I love because I like people like me, but it's also

32:23

it's also rare. You remind me of myself. I I think that's why I love you.

it's also rare. You remind me of myself. I I think that's why I love you.

32:27

Yeah. You're great. Because I see part of me and you. But,

Yeah. You're great. Because I see part of me and you. But,

32:31

it's the opposite of what most people come on the podcast and say. Most people come on the podcast and say, you gotta work super hard hard work is everything. And both me and you were like, we asked a different question which is like, how can I be lazy and win the most? And, we're like, yeah, I I take pride in a certain form of laziness. I'm gonna be super active in one area, but I'd I absolutely reject a certain type of sweat.

it's the opposite of what most people come on the podcast and say. Most people come on the podcast and say, you gotta work super hard hard work is everything. And both me and you were like, we asked a different question which is like, how can I be lazy and win the most? And, we're like, yeah, I I take pride in a certain form of laziness. I'm gonna be super active in one area, but I'd I absolutely reject a certain type of sweat.

32:55

That's how I think about it. Do you think about it the same way?

That's how I think about it. Do you think about it the same way?

32:58

Yeah. Totally. I I another, like, archetype I have of this is, like, you can divide the world into the,

Yeah. Totally. I I another, like, archetype I have of this is, like, you can divide the world into the,

33:05

into the, you know,

into the, you know,

33:07

the Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of type, and then maybe the the Sam Altman type. And it's not to say that Sam Elman doesn't work hard and Arnold Schwartzneger isn't smart. They are both examples of doing both, of course.

the Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of type, and then maybe the the Sam Altman type. And it's not to say that Sam Elman doesn't work hard and Arnold Schwartzneger isn't smart. They are both examples of doing both, of course.

33:18

But, like, you know, Schwartzneger, it's all literally, like, in the biography about, like, laying more bricks, like, lifting more days, more hours. It's just grinding. And when he becomes an actor, it's, like, more auditions, more movies, more practice.

But, like, you know, Schwartzneger, it's all literally, like, in the biography about, like, laying more bricks, like, lifting more days, more hours. It's just grinding. And when he becomes an actor, it's, like, more auditions, more movies, more practice.

33:31

Versus maybe someone who, like, Altman, who, like, found this big opportunity and, like, was really early on. It was really clever about how he set it up and everything in more about making these, like, moves and probably like you, Sean. Like, I I find there's a certain elegance in,

Versus maybe someone who, like, Altman, who, like, found this big opportunity and, like, was really early on. It was really clever about how he set it up and everything in more about making these, like, moves and probably like you, Sean. Like, I I find there's a certain elegance in,

33:47

in doing things with, like, the least amount of moves. And other people aren't like that. Like, Sam, I I bet you're probably more,

in doing things with, like, the least amount of moves. And other people aren't like that. Like, Sam, I I bet you're probably more,

33:53

like,

like,

33:55

people who work really hard grind it out, like, put in the hours.

people who work really hard grind it out, like, put in the hours.

33:59

I know you you love shackled in. I think shackled in's a lot like this, like, just, like, outwork everybody else. You're acting like, you don't lie. You looked around like, well, I don't know. But

I know you you love shackled in. I think shackled in's a lot like this, like, just, like, outwork everybody else. You're acting like, you don't lie. You looked around like, well, I don't know. But

34:06

You are like that. You're, like, hard equals good because hard means I'm hard, whereas

You are like that. You're, like, hard equals good because hard means I'm hard, whereas

34:12

I'm, like,

I'm, like,

34:13

easy equals good because it means that I'm clever. Right? It looks like you admire a different attribute.

easy equals good because it means that I'm clever. Right? It looks like you admire a different attribute.

34:18

No. Yeah. I mean, there's value, I think, it's just sweating sometimes. Like, you know, I think that sometimes because a thing is hard, therefore, it is good for you. I definitely believe that. But, I mean, I only work, like, forty hours a week. I work a normal work week.

No. Yeah. I mean, there's value, I think, it's just sweating sometimes. Like, you know, I think that sometimes because a thing is hard, therefore, it is good for you. I definitely believe that. But, I mean, I only work, like, forty hours a week. I work a normal work week.

34:33

But,

But,

34:34

Yeah. I mean, I I fall a little bit in the middle. I do think that, like, just doing a hard thing for the sake of it being hard, there is, like, some type of, like, divine goodness within that.

Yeah. I mean, I I fall a little bit in the middle. I do think that, like, just doing a hard thing for the sake of it being hard, there is, like, some type of, like, divine goodness within that.

34:45

Yeah. And you gotta do both. Like, the the there's, you know, for the lazy person, there's periods of really hard work and and vice versa, but But I think when people say they don't work hard and they still, like, achieve greatness, I think they're full of shit.

Yeah. And you gotta do both. Like, the the there's, you know, for the lazy person, there's periods of really hard work and and vice versa, but But I think when people say they don't work hard and they still, like, achieve greatness, I think they're full of shit.

34:58

Like, Sean, you say that you are lazy, dude. You'll, you'll, you'll, he'll he'll text me a paragraph, like, a book at, like, ten PM. Like, you're still doing shit. You're just you're laying on the couch while your wife is watching TV and you're on your phone.

Like, Sean, you say that you are lazy, dude. You'll, you'll, you'll, he'll he'll text me a paragraph, like, a book at, like, ten PM. Like, you're still doing shit. You're just you're laying on the couch while your wife is watching TV and you're on your phone.

35:11

You know, you're not at a desk.

You know, you're not at a desk.

35:14

I view laziness

I view laziness

35:15

as not that you don't do anything. It's that you don't do things you don't wanna do.

as not that you don't do anything. It's that you don't do things you don't wanna do.

35:20

I just do all the things I wanna do at full force because that's how I because I like them. I want to do them. I just don't do a lot of things that I don't wanna do. I I am very

I just do all the things I wanna do at full force because that's how I because I like them. I want to do them. I just don't do a lot of things that I don't wanna do. I I am very

35:30

selective or,

selective or,

35:33

cheap about how much effort I'm willing to put into things that I don't actually wanna do. And I'm willing to be lazy on those. Right? It's kinda like the definition of work versus play. Work is, you know, work is how do you define work? One way of finding work is It's the stuff that you don't wanna do voluntarily,

cheap about how much effort I'm willing to put into things that I don't actually wanna do. And I'm willing to be lazy on those. Right? It's kinda like the definition of work versus play. Work is, you know, work is how do you define work? One way of finding work is It's the stuff that you don't wanna do voluntarily,

35:49

and play is the stuff that you do wanna do voluntarily.

and play is the stuff that you do wanna do voluntarily.

35:51

And I just opt into a lot more of play than I think most people do.

And I just opt into a lot more of play than I think most people do.

35:56

And I'm I'm I have a lower tolerance for work that I don't wanna do, then I would say the the average successful person. And the reason I like Jeremy coming on is because it's cool to see examples of a different play style because we've seen a bunch of the other play style because it gets a lot of it sounds amazing. David Goggins, the work harder, grind more,

And I'm I'm I have a lower tolerance for work that I don't wanna do, then I would say the the average successful person. And the reason I like Jeremy coming on is because it's cool to see examples of a different play style because we've seen a bunch of the other play style because it gets a lot of it sounds amazing. David Goggins, the work harder, grind more,

36:14

show up early, leave late. You know, like, that I get that. That's a cool play style. It's just not what everybody wants to do. So I like hearing other play files? Yeah. I mean, Sam, you're you're definitely right. Like, I'm I'm sure

show up early, leave late. You know, like, that I get that. That's a cool play style. It's just not what everybody wants to do. So I like hearing other play files? Yeah. I mean, Sam, you're you're definitely right. Like, I'm I'm sure

36:25

I I do a bunch of stuff that I'm not even conscious that I'm working a lot harder than other people because it it just feels innate.

I I do a bunch of stuff that I'm not even conscious that I'm working a lot harder than other people because it it just feels innate.

36:31

But I think, like, another way to look at it is there's certainly a type of person who the way you soothe yourself. So, like, some people will just soothe themselves by putting in way more hours. Like, you know, working on that, like, diminishing marginal return piece of, like, oh, if I just put in a few more hours on this, and other people, I think it's, like, I just gotta figure out the exact right thing to do here. Like, what is the exact right move? And do you spend all your time thinking about that? Do you guys wanna do a fifty mile race with me in August?

But I think, like, another way to look at it is there's certainly a type of person who the way you soothe yourself. So, like, some people will just soothe themselves by putting in way more hours. Like, you know, working on that, like, diminishing marginal return piece of, like, oh, if I just put in a few more hours on this, and other people, I think it's, like, I just gotta figure out the exact right thing to do here. Like, what is the exact right move? And do you spend all your time thinking about that? Do you guys wanna do a fifty mile race with me in August?

36:58

Dude, I've been training for this thing, and I had to run ten miles on Sunday, and I haven't ran that far in forever. And I'm just, like, depleted.

Dude, I've been training for this thing, and I had to run ten miles on Sunday, and I haven't ran that far in forever. And I'm just, like, depleted.

37:04

You wanna come work hard? Come come join this race with me. Yeah. That's probably a good one. Everyone who loves, like, the super endurance stuff is probably a grinder at heart because it's just like about if I do so much of this, it'll just be better than everyone else. It sucks. I just it sucks. When we were in Austin last week, we were hanging out with Do you know Isaiah photo? Do you know who that is, Sam? No. No. I don't. He is a YouTuber who lives in Austin, and he's got probably like ten million YouTube subscribers.

You wanna come work hard? Come come join this race with me. Yeah. That's probably a good one. Everyone who loves, like, the super endurance stuff is probably a grinder at heart because it's just like about if I do so much of this, it'll just be better than everyone else. It sucks. I just it sucks. When we were in Austin last week, we were hanging out with Do you know Isaiah photo? Do you know who that is, Sam? No. No. I don't. He is a YouTuber who lives in Austin, and he's got probably like ten million YouTube subscribers.

37:29

And

And

37:30

If you go look at, like, what are his popular videos or, like, what kind of was his break, he would do stuff, like, these challenge videos. These are kinda, like, grind videos. Counting to a hundred thousand.

If you go look at, like, what are his popular videos or, like, what kind of was his break, he would do stuff, like, these challenge videos. These are kinda, like, grind videos. Counting to a hundred thousand.

37:40

Like that. He's like, how I will click this jaw breaker as many times it takes till the jaw breaker disappears. How many licks does it take?

Like that. He's like, how I will click this jaw breaker as many times it takes till the jaw breaker disappears. How many licks does it take?

37:47

He'll hold the lighter on, and he'll be like, how long till this lighter just goes out? Like, how much lighter fluid is in this? How long does that last? It's like a hundred million views or whatever. Right? People love this shit, and it's you know, to his credit, he found what people wanted and it gives it to him. At the same time, I'm like, oh, man, I'd shoot myself if I had to do that because that's not that's not a path that's very appealing to me. But that same personality, I'm like, oh, what do you do for fun outside of YouTubeing?

He'll hold the lighter on, and he'll be like, how long till this lighter just goes out? Like, how much lighter fluid is in this? How long does that last? It's like a hundred million views or whatever. Right? People love this shit, and it's you know, to his credit, he found what people wanted and it gives it to him. At the same time, I'm like, oh, man, I'd shoot myself if I had to do that because that's not that's not a path that's very appealing to me. But that same personality, I'm like, oh, what do you do for fun outside of YouTubeing?

38:11

And he was like, oh, I love running. Same thing. I'm like, oh, god. What's the deal with you runners? He's like, oh, yeah. Really wanna run. I wanna start a run club. I love running. And I'm like, if somebody told me, yo, you gotta run today, They just said, Sean, you got a bad day today. And,

And he was like, oh, I love running. Same thing. I'm like, oh, god. What's the deal with you runners? He's like, oh, yeah. Really wanna run. I wanna start a run club. I love running. And I'm like, if somebody told me, yo, you gotta run today, They just said, Sean, you got a bad day today. And,

38:24

right, I'm not trying to be a runner, but there's so many successful people that love running and that that there's like a really high correlation there. On the other hand, I went did a podcast with, Monish Pabry.

right, I'm not trying to be a runner, but there's so many successful people that love running and that that there's like a really high correlation there. On the other hand, I went did a podcast with, Monish Pabry.

38:35

Jeremy, I assume you know him. Yes. Yeah. Andrew told me he's like, he he was my first value investing man crush. And,

Jeremy, I assume you know him. Yes. Yeah. Andrew told me he's like, he he was my first value investing man crush. And,

38:42

dude, this episode is great. Monish.

dude, this episode is great. Monish.

38:46

That's the first time you've done that. This is the last time you did that at Bruno.

That's the first time you've done that. This is the last time you did that at Bruno.

38:50

Years ago.

Years ago.

38:52

When I met my wife.

When I met my wife.

38:55

Sounds like you've got practice.

Sounds like you've got practice.

38:57

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Exactly.

38:59

And he was like, yeah, I take a nap every day. He's like, a good year is I make one or two investments, which is like literally

And he was like, yeah, I take a nap every day. He's like, a good year is I make one or two investments, which is like literally

39:05

clicking a button. Yeah. It's not even like he runs a company. He's like buying a public stock. And he's not even buying he's not day trading. He's not analyzing everything. He's, like, one or two good investments in a year would be a fantastic year. And he reads and he chills. And I was like, man, the

clicking a button. Yeah. It's not even like he runs a company. He's like buying a public stock. And he's not even buying he's not day trading. He's not analyzing everything. He's, like, one or two good investments in a year would be a fantastic year. And he reads and he chills. And I was like, man, the

39:20

both guys I would say are winning. They're winning at their craft, like, to have ten million YouTube subscribers is phenomenal.

both guys I would say are winning. They're winning at their craft, like, to have ten million YouTube subscribers is phenomenal.

39:26

He's built a wonderful life for himself. And the other guy, you know, is a phenomenal value investor,

He's built a wonderful life for himself. And the other guy, you know, is a phenomenal value investor,

39:30

but the lifestyle and the the things that they value are so different

but the lifestyle and the the things that they value are so different

39:35

You know, one guy maybe has the stomach losing seventy five million dollars of net worth in a day, and he's gotta be cool with that. And the other guy's got a stomach waking up tomorrow and being like, how do I come up with the next crazy video?

You know, one guy maybe has the stomach losing seventy five million dollars of net worth in a day, and he's gotta be cool with that. And the other guy's got a stomach waking up tomorrow and being like, how do I come up with the next crazy video?

39:47

And it was really remarkable to see that. So, you know, I think Jeremy, you were talking about, like, you know, you sort of pick your prison in a way. Yeah.

And it was really remarkable to see that. So, you know, I think Jeremy, you were talking about, like, you know, you sort of pick your prison in a way. Yeah.

39:53

I'm assuming you've sort of seen these different games that people play and and decided which one is appealing to you. It's funny. I I guys like Monish are, like, I call them

I'm assuming you've sort of seen these different games that people play and and decided which one is appealing to you. It's funny. I I guys like Monish are, like, I call them

40:02

the nap room guys. Like, there's a whole set of value investors that have a, like, a room in their office. He's like, this is my nap room. He opened it up. I was like, this is amazing. Is that a thing? Nap room guys? Yeah. They're I I've met at least, like, three or four different value investors like that who, like, they have a place to nap. I wanna ask you about that same idea, but in a different way.

the nap room guys. Like, there's a whole set of value investors that have a, like, a room in their office. He's like, this is my nap room. He opened it up. I was like, this is amazing. Is that a thing? Nap room guys? Yeah. They're I I've met at least, like, three or four different value investors like that who, like, they have a place to nap. I wanna ask you about that same idea, but in a different way.

40:22

So I'm gonna give you my observation, and I want you to I I wanna know if you have any specific stories that that line up So my observation, we we talked about

So I'm gonna give you my observation, and I want you to I I wanna know if you have any specific stories that that line up So my observation, we we talked about

40:31

does Andrew Grind,

does Andrew Grind,

40:32

right? He comes on here. He acts super zen, super calm,

right? He comes on here. He acts super zen, super calm,

40:36

super philosophical. He wants to be like Warren Buffett. He's playing bridge half the day. He's reading. And then once it tries to hear he just blesses us with a beautiful investment. Right?

super philosophical. He wants to be like Warren Buffett. He's playing bridge half the day. He's reading. And then once it tries to hear he just blesses us with a beautiful investment. Right?

40:46

But, you know, one thing I have seen Andrew do is he may not work super, super hard, but he works very fast.

But, you know, one thing I have seen Andrew do is he may not work super, super hard, but he works very fast.

40:51

He is incredible at sniffing out opportunities.

He is incredible at sniffing out opportunities.

40:55

He is incredible at fast follow ups.

He is incredible at fast follow ups.

40:59

He moves really quickly when he's excited about something. That's the first thing I noticed.

He moves really quickly when he's excited about something. That's the first thing I noticed.

41:03

The second thing I noticed about Andrew is not only does he move really fast when he's excited about an opportunity. He'll just keep texting you about it or he'll keep prodding until he finds out more information. He'll he'll fly to meet you right away. But he also will will be persistent. So, like, I think with some of the businesses, it's like, yeah, I used to I love that business. So I emailed him every month. For, like, five years. And then finally, one month, they were like, yeah, I am willing to sell the business.

The second thing I noticed about Andrew is not only does he move really fast when he's excited about an opportunity. He'll just keep texting you about it or he'll keep prodding until he finds out more information. He'll he'll fly to meet you right away. But he also will will be persistent. So, like, I think with some of the businesses, it's like, yeah, I used to I love that business. So I emailed him every month. For, like, five years. And then finally, one month, they were like, yeah, I am willing to sell the business.

41:27

And I think that was the case for maybe LetterBox. Dribble where he was just emailing the founder continuously arrow pressed. Same thing. He was just emailing the guy, like, hey. Yep. Have you thought about selling this month? Hey, have you thought about selling this month? Some version of that question. Hanging around the hoop. In fact, when we sold the milk road, same thing happened, we tried to sell the business. We walked away from these guys at the last minute. And if I'm them, I'm like, oh, hate the, you know, hate those guys. Screw them. Well, let's let's kill those guys. And instead, they were super professional about it. They were like, okay, no problem. Like, sounds like you have you wanna go different direction. They hung around the hoop a month later. He says, hey, I didn't see any announcement. Like, no deal went through.

And I think that was the case for maybe LetterBox. Dribble where he was just emailing the founder continuously arrow pressed. Same thing. He was just emailing the guy, like, hey. Yep. Have you thought about selling this month? Hey, have you thought about selling this month? Some version of that question. Hanging around the hoop. In fact, when we sold the milk road, same thing happened, we tried to sell the business. We walked away from these guys at the last minute. And if I'm them, I'm like, oh, hate the, you know, hate those guys. Screw them. Well, let's let's kill those guys. And instead, they were super professional about it. They were like, okay, no problem. Like, sounds like you have you wanna go different direction. They hung around the hoop a month later. He says, hey, I didn't see any announcement. Like, no deal went through.

42:02

And we were like, no. You know, we decided not to do it for this and this reason. He's like, well, we're still interested.

And we were like, no. You know, we decided not to do it for this and this reason. He's like, well, we're still interested.

42:07

And he I was like, wow. That was so different than how I I would I would have done that. So we made it a practice for us whenever we're buying businesses. It's like,

And he I was like, wow. That was so different than how I I would I would have done that. So we made it a practice for us whenever we're buying businesses. It's like,

42:15

a, don't get personally offended when it happens. And b, we schedule the automated reminder. A month or three months later, let's just follow back up and just make sure that we check-in and hey, is there still an opportunity here? We still like the business. We liked it then. We like it more now. You know, like, if there's if there's still an opportunity to let us know that that idea of hanging around the hoop. Are there any other stories

a, don't get personally offended when it happens. And b, we schedule the automated reminder. A month or three months later, let's just follow back up and just make sure that we check-in and hey, is there still an opportunity here? We still like the business. We liked it then. We like it more now. You know, like, if there's if there's still an opportunity to let us know that that idea of hanging around the hoop. Are there any other stories

42:33

either on Andrew's

either on Andrew's

42:34

moving fast and or

moving fast and or

42:37

being persistent and just following up over and over again that you remember.

being persistent and just following up over and over again that you remember.

42:40

Yeah. I mean, on the fast thing, it it's annoying, but it's true. The the most successful people in the world respond instantly. I cannot believe it's kind of infuriating how true it is, but

Yeah. I mean, on the fast thing, it it's annoying, but it's true. The the most successful people in the world respond instantly. I cannot believe it's kind of infuriating how true it is, but

42:50

when you email the billionaire CEO, it's like a thirty second response. When you email his vice president, it's, you know, it can be a week or something. That is just so true.

when you email the billionaire CEO, it's like a thirty second response. When you email his vice president, it's, you know, it can be a week or something. That is just so true.

42:58

And,

And,

43:00

I I I really try and force myself to respond fast. I I wrote this little script for for Gmail, but,

I I I really try and force myself to respond fast. I I wrote this little script for for Gmail, but,

43:06

it archives my email every twenty four hours.

it archives my email every twenty four hours.

43:09

So I, like, have to respond or it just disappears, and I feel like it's a really good nudge of, like, just send send the simpler text messages like response.

So I, like, have to respond or it just disappears, and I feel like it's a really good nudge of, like, just send send the simpler text messages like response.

43:19

And Andrew is, like, super, super high paced, really energetic,

And Andrew is, like, super, super high paced, really energetic,

43:24

The the thing that comes to mind is when you're at, you know, lunch or whatever with him, if he thinks of someone you should meet, he will pull out his phone and, like, send the intro email before you've even, like, finished the sentence. And,

The the thing that comes to mind is when you're at, you know, lunch or whatever with him, if he thinks of someone you should meet, he will pull out his phone and, like, send the intro email before you've even, like, finished the sentence. And,

43:37

it's good and bad. Like, sometimes you're like, wait. Like, I don't wanna meet that person or whatever, but it's also just this, like, if if you think about it in terms of iterations,

it's good and bad. Like, sometimes you're like, wait. Like, I don't wanna meet that person or whatever, but it's also just this, like, if if you think about it in terms of iterations,

43:44

it's so many more iterations of just making something happen, and also, like, Movement, especially when you're an operator, movement creates information. Like, you learn more by doing more things. And so it's a really powerful combo.

it's so many more iterations of just making something happen, and also, like, Movement, especially when you're an operator, movement creates information. Like, you learn more by doing more things. And so it's a really powerful combo.

43:56

And then, yeah, in in terms of following up,

And then, yeah, in in terms of following up,

43:59

I think just being a little,

I think just being a little,

44:01

Andrew used to call, like, being Dennis the menace, like, just after just being a little bit more

Andrew used to call, like, being Dennis the menace, like, just after just being a little bit more

44:06

willing to just kind of, like, poke your head in even when it might be a little, like,

willing to just kind of, like, poke your head in even when it might be a little, like,

44:12

you know, Gosh or or whatever

you know, Gosh or or whatever

44:14

can be really can be be really powerful. It's kind of that just like, hey, like, you're still interested in selling. You're still interested in selling. You're still interested in selling. That Dennis the menace bit. That's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah. And

can be really can be be really powerful. It's kind of that just like, hey, like, you're still interested in selling. You're still interested in selling. You're still interested in selling. That Dennis the menace bit. That's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah. And

44:25

and he's willing to be the menace more than most people. Like, he's he is willing to he does meta like, people do say, you're menacing me stop it, but it also, like, really pays off because just like, oh, you know, it's and if you think about it, it's like, okay. Fine. Like, who's that guy who emails me every three months? Like, maybe you had a bad day or you're done with the business or whatever. And you're like, alright. I guess I'll, like, see what that guy has to say. You know?

and he's willing to be the menace more than most people. Like, he's he is willing to he does meta like, people do say, you're menacing me stop it, but it also, like, really pays off because just like, oh, you know, it's and if you think about it, it's like, okay. Fine. Like, who's that guy who emails me every three months? Like, maybe you had a bad day or you're done with the business or whatever. And you're like, alright. I guess I'll, like, see what that guy has to say. You know?

44:48

And,

And,

44:49

yeah, it's it's incredibly it's incredibly powerful, and and more people should do it. And just generally be less afraid of Like, I learned this doing a lot of cold email for sales.

yeah, it's it's incredibly it's incredibly powerful, and and more people should do it. And just generally be less afraid of Like, I learned this doing a lot of cold email for sales.

44:59

You know, if you send out a thousand cold emails,

You know, if you send out a thousand cold emails,

45:02

you're gonna get one or two responses that are just someone's going ballistic Like, if you email me again, I'll sue you or whatever, you know, but the other nine hundred ninety eight, it's, like, either positive or no response or neutral, and it's just, like, all upside, basic, play. Alright. So I wanna

you're gonna get one or two responses that are just someone's going ballistic Like, if you email me again, I'll sue you or whatever, you know, but the other nine hundred ninety eight, it's, like, either positive or no response or neutral, and it's just, like, all upside, basic, play. Alright. So I wanna

45:17

shift gears to what I call

shift gears to what I call

45:20

the spicy hot take section, the semi controversial opinion section. If this was if we were in club right now. This is that part where the DJ starts, like, the beats about to drop. And we all know things are about to get a little little crazy, little fun. That's what's about to happen in this podcast. Okay. So here's the first prompt. I'm just gonna prompt you, and then I want you to kinda give us your rant on it. First prompt is about mister Beast, which is that mister Beast shouldn't be selling chocolate bars.

the spicy hot take section, the semi controversial opinion section. If this was if we were in club right now. This is that part where the DJ starts, like, the beats about to drop. And we all know things are about to get a little little crazy, little fun. That's what's about to happen in this podcast. Okay. So here's the first prompt. I'm just gonna prompt you, and then I want you to kinda give us your rant on it. First prompt is about mister Beast, which is that mister Beast shouldn't be selling chocolate bars.

45:45

What should mister Beast be doing instead of selling chocolate bars? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a testament to how valuable audiences are that all the most valuable businesses that have been created are like the worst businesses. Chocolate bars, supplements,

What should mister Beast be doing instead of selling chocolate bars? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a testament to how valuable audiences are that all the most valuable businesses that have been created are like the worst businesses. Chocolate bars, supplements,

45:59

merch,

merch,

46:00

that kind of stuff. Like, these are really bad businesses.

that kind of stuff. Like, these are really bad businesses.

46:04

And so I I always think, okay, what happens

And so I I always think, okay, what happens

46:07

if Feastable is just the most successful,

if Feastable is just the most successful,

46:10

like, creator brand,

like, creator brand,

46:12

what happens when that is,

what happens when that is,

46:13

you know, a really good business,

you know, a really good business,

46:16

a bank or, like, a great software tool or something like that. Let me explain why is chocolate bars or prime from Logan Paul? Why are those bad because somebody might say, oh, they're doing hundreds of millions of revenue or they're they're gonna sell for a billion dollars. Like, but but you're saying bad business at at as a characteristic,

a bank or, like, a great software tool or something like that. Let me explain why is chocolate bars or prime from Logan Paul? Why are those bad because somebody might say, oh, they're doing hundreds of millions of revenue or they're they're gonna sell for a billion dollars. Like, but but you're saying bad business at at as a characteristic,

46:31

like the underlying fundamentals of that category. So explain that. Yeah. There the reason like, you can still be, to be clear, you can still be very successful selling chocolate bars. Like Hugh Kitchen is one of my favorite companies, and Jason Carpenter has, like, chocolate and know he's very successful with that, but it's it's it's kind of that thing of like, you know, is it a restaurant or is it a,

like the underlying fundamentals of that category. So explain that. Yeah. There the reason like, you can still be, to be clear, you can still be very successful selling chocolate bars. Like Hugh Kitchen is one of my favorite companies, and Jason Carpenter has, like, chocolate and know he's very successful with that, but it's it's it's kind of that thing of like, you know, is it a restaurant or is it a,

46:50

you know, a SaaS company? Like, there's levels of difficulty, basically.

you know, a SaaS company? Like, there's levels of difficulty, basically.

46:54

And so, you know,

And so, you know,

46:56

there is just businesses, like, if you could contrast extremes, so a chocolate bar, low margin,

there is just businesses, like, if you could contrast extremes, so a chocolate bar, low margin,

47:01

not a repeat customer,

not a repeat customer,

47:04

not a, like, super,

not a, like, super,

47:06

necessary product or anything like that versus, say, you know, something really low on the stack. Like, home insurance or property insurance or something or or,

necessary product or anything like that versus, say, you know, something really low on the stack. Like, home insurance or property insurance or something or or,

47:14

or Visa or Mastercard or, like, something that you need every day. Like, there's just better qualities of businesses. And then the other way you could think about it is what would be the, like, enduring enterprise value of the business without the person.

or Visa or Mastercard or, like, something that you need every day. Like, there's just better qualities of businesses. And then the other way you could think about it is what would be the, like, enduring enterprise value of the business without the person.

47:25

So feastables is gonna have a way harder time without mister Beast than, you know,

So feastables is gonna have a way harder time without mister Beast than, you know,

47:30

if he built a bank, right, if the bank had hundreds of thousands of customers or whatever,

if he built a bank, right, if the bank had hundreds of thousands of customers or whatever,

47:35

ostensibly he could go away from that and might make the business grow slower or whatever, but it's still like a really great, great business.

ostensibly he could go away from that and might make the business grow slower or whatever, but it's still like a really great, great business.

47:41

And so I actually view it as very, like, very it's very bullish for the creators. It's very bullish for the space. It's kind of like, you're making it work on hard mode, and and I wonder what it looks like when it's kind of on easy mode.

And so I actually view it as very, like, very it's very bullish for the creators. It's very bullish for the space. It's kind of like, you're making it work on hard mode, and and I wonder what it looks like when it's kind of on easy mode.

47:52

Alright. Next one. Networth is a silly metric. Why is Networth silly and what's a better metric instead? You've told me something about, like, kind of personal cash flow or something like that is is a better metric.

Alright. Next one. Networth is a silly metric. Why is Networth silly and what's a better metric instead? You've told me something about, like, kind of personal cash flow or something like that is is a better metric.

48:03

Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

48:06

so my, like, my other line on this is billionaire as a state of mind because

so my, like, my other line on this is billionaire as a state of mind because

48:11

the amount of billionaires first of all, it's, like, it's so bullshit because it's it's always

the amount of billionaires first of all, it's, like, it's so bullshit because it's it's always

48:17

unless it's either, like, you have this in cash or it's your shares in a public company,

unless it's either, like, you have this in cash or it's your shares in a public company,

48:22

it's always a complete matter of taste. You know, it's like, well, my company would be worth a billion if it were to sell.

it's always a complete matter of taste. You know, it's like, well, my company would be worth a billion if it were to sell.

48:29

And and even in public companies, it's not even real, because most of the time, if you own a ton of the public company, if you were to dump it all, it would massively, you know, drop the price.

And and even in public companies, it's not even real, because most of the time, if you own a ton of the public company, if you were to dump it all, it would massively, you know, drop the price.

48:37

And so I really think

And so I really think

48:39

Like, it's kind of this thing. One it's more like this memetic label. Once you get labeled a billionaire,

Like, it's kind of this thing. One it's more like this memetic label. Once you get labeled a billionaire,

48:45

it kinda just sticks. And people just refer to it. Like, I see this a lot. Also, people people use it as a way to describe someone who just kind of is in a certain class. I actually think it's more of a class market than anything. Like, you know, he lives a certain lifestyle,

it kinda just sticks. And people just refer to it. Like, I see this a lot. Also, people people use it as a way to describe someone who just kind of is in a certain class. I actually think it's more of a class market than anything. Like, you know, he lives a certain lifestyle,

48:58

he hangs out with a certain people. He's like a billionaire. It really has nothing to do with with whether or not you actually have a billion dollars or you own something worth a billion dollars? And the other,

he hangs out with a certain people. He's like a billionaire. It really has nothing to do with with whether or not you actually have a billion dollars or you own something worth a billion dollars? And the other,

49:09

the other is, yeah, like, cash. Like, liquidity is so crazy. The amount of people

the other is, yeah, like, cash. Like, liquidity is so crazy. The amount of people

49:15

billionaires. I've that when you're like, okay. Could you wire me a hundred grand tomorrow? The answer is no. Like, it's like, I've been shocked by this over and over and over. Explain that more. What do you mean? So people who you have read about? Saying no because they don't wanna wire you a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. It's it's it's definitely

billionaires. I've that when you're like, okay. Could you wire me a hundred grand tomorrow? The answer is no. Like, it's like, I've been shocked by this over and over and over. Explain that more. What do you mean? So people who you have read about? Saying no because they don't wanna wire you a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. It's it's it's definitely

49:33

it's definitely

it's definitely

49:34

Is that the test?

Is that the test?

49:35

Can you wire me a hundred? No.

Can you wire me a hundred? No.

49:37

Not wrong, man. No. Can't can't do it.

Not wrong, man. No. Can't can't do it.

49:42

But, no, like, people people don't

But, no, like, people people don't

49:45

keep a lot of cash.

keep a lot of cash.

49:47

And and it it really is Like, one way to look at this is

And and it it really is Like, one way to look at this is

49:52

in, like, a party seed round or whatever. I'm always shocked by, like, who doesn't wire the money or you have to chase them down or whatever and are they have to wire it in tranches or anything like that? Like and I think it's just that cash flow is so far from net worth.

in, like, a party seed round or whatever. I'm always shocked by, like, who doesn't wire the money or you have to chase them down or whatever and are they have to wire it in tranches or anything like that? Like and I think it's just that cash flow is so far from net worth.

50:06

And then and and so, like,

And then and and so, like,

50:09

And you had, like, you had oh, sorry. Go ahead, Sean. What? Sam, we we have a funny experience with this. We were at a lunch with somebody, and you were asking them, you're like, what level of money made a difference. Like, where what's the next level of unlock? And he's like He said twenty five. This much or, like, you know, you said a number that was, like, a net worth number. And he's like, yeah. That was a good number.

And you had, like, you had oh, sorry. Go ahead, Sean. What? Sam, we we have a funny experience with this. We were at a lunch with somebody, and you were asking them, you're like, what level of money made a difference. Like, where what's the next level of unlock? And he's like He said twenty five. This much or, like, you know, you said a number that was, like, a net worth number. And he's like, yeah. That was a good number.

50:29

You know, when I was doing that every year, then blah blah. And he he were like, wait, annual link. He were like, hey. Like, cash flow was that. Because I was kinda saying the whole net worth and he and he was like, yeah, that's what I was doing in annual cash flow. And it was very clear that if you had that much an Castflow, you essentially had infinite money. Well, it was like, we were like, I think twenty five is like a good number. And he goes, yeah, I agree. Having that come in every year. It's awesome. And I was like, oh, yeah.

You know, when I was doing that every year, then blah blah. And he he were like, wait, annual link. He were like, hey. Like, cash flow was that. Because I was kinda saying the whole net worth and he and he was like, yeah, that's what I was doing in annual cash flow. And it was very clear that if you had that much an Castflow, you essentially had infinite money. Well, it was like, we were like, I think twenty five is like a good number. And he goes, yeah, I agree. Having that come in every year. It's awesome. And I was like, oh, yeah.

50:55

I literally, like, in the booth of the restaurant, just a few months down to the bottom. I was under the table and I was just like, oh, what's down here? I mean

I literally, like, in the booth of the restaurant, just a few months down to the bottom. I was under the table and I was just like, oh, what's down here? I mean

51:05

You and and did I read that you

You and and did I read that you

51:08

try to create some kind of, like, equivalent,

try to create some kind of, like, equivalent,

51:10

like, like, a chart of cash flow to net worth.

like, like, a chart of cash flow to net worth.

51:13

Yeah. Yeah. I thought a lot about this. So so part of that is is talking about one, like, weird thing about tiny is I probably talked to three or four thousand bootstrap entrepreneurs.

Yeah. Yeah. I thought a lot about this. So so part of that is is talking about one, like, weird thing about tiny is I probably talked to three or four thousand bootstrap entrepreneurs.

51:22

And,

And,

51:23

The vibes that they give off, like, I don't know. I've met a handful of billion dollar net worth founders,

The vibes that they give off, like, I don't know. I've met a handful of billion dollar net worth founders,

51:29

and the vibes between them and someone who makes, you know, ten million dollars year from their Chrome plugin or whatever,

and the vibes between them and someone who makes, you know, ten million dollars year from their Chrome plugin or whatever,

51:36

very different.

very different.

51:37

And and there's something about, like, just how free they feel when they have that cash flow coming in. Because there's two things. One is, like, maybe the network never actually translates into cache.

And and there's something about, like, just how free they feel when they have that cash flow coming in. Because there's two things. One is, like, maybe the network never actually translates into cache.

51:47

A very funny thing is, like, all the

A very funny thing is, like, all the

51:49

All the Silicon Valley guys are really when, like, behind closers are really,

All the Silicon Valley guys are really when, like, behind closers are really,

51:54

envious of the New York hedge fund guys because they're so liquid. Like, they might not actually be as rich per se, but they're so they make so much cash that it's, like, it may as well be a whole different thing.

envious of the New York hedge fund guys because they're so liquid. Like, they might not actually be as rich per se, but they're so they make so much cash that it's, like, it may as well be a whole different thing.

52:05

How much do the hedge fund guys make in New York?

How much do the hedge fund guys make in New York?

52:08

Yeah. This is another hot take, which is I always

Yeah. This is another hot take, which is I always

52:11

when I started getting interested in making money, it was, like, the most common thing you hear is you cannot get rich on a salary. Like, you gotta own equity, you gotta own a business.

when I started getting interested in making money, it was, like, the most common thing you hear is you cannot get rich on a salary. Like, you gotta own equity, you gotta own a business.

52:19

In New York,

In New York,

52:20

there are lots of guys lots of guys making five, ten million. There's people making a hundred million. I've met one guy at a big hedge fund. As what? It's like a like a portfolio manager. Like, a bonus. Yeah. There's there's there's at least one guy out there who, like, makes a billion dollars in in annual compensation.

there are lots of guys lots of guys making five, ten million. There's people making a hundred million. I've met one guy at a big hedge fund. As what? It's like a like a portfolio manager. Like, a bonus. Yeah. There's there's there's at least one guy out there who, like, makes a billion dollars in in annual compensation.

52:37

But what's normal? Like, let's say you're you're you're hanging out with your New York finance friends. It varies it varies a lot. But in a good year, like, an analyst at a big hedge fund will make three to five million dollars.

But what's normal? Like, let's say you're you're you're hanging out with your New York finance friends. It varies it varies a lot. But in a good year, like, an analyst at a big hedge fund will make three to five million dollars.

52:50

And in a really good year, it can be a lot more than that because usually it's a it's a percentage.

And in a really good year, it can be a lot more than that because usually it's a it's a percentage.

52:54

And,

And,

52:55

you know, like being being a senior person at a big

you know, like being being a senior person at a big

52:59

fund or whatever, you make a lot of money, and you kinda take no risk in some very real sense.

fund or whatever, you make a lot of money, and you kinda take no risk in some very real sense.

53:06

And so I think, like, that was certainly, certainly surprising to me. And, yeah, just to, like, come back to the casual thing. I certainly, like, Andrew was always such a cash flow person and and really, like,

And so I think, like, that was certainly, certainly surprising to me. And, yeah, just to, like, come back to the casual thing. I certainly, like, Andrew was always such a cash flow person and and really, like,

53:17

in in Canada at the time, like, there was just no funding. So you just had to live or die off cash flow. And it's it's I think it's more instructive to think about money in terms of in terms of cash flow. Because the other thing is when you have a net worth,

in in Canada at the time, like, there was just no funding. So you just had to live or die off cash flow. And it's it's I think it's more instructive to think about money in terms of in terms of cash flow. Because the other thing is when you have a net worth,

53:29

like, say, you sell your business and you just have a bunch of cash.

like, say, you sell your business and you just have a bunch of cash.

53:32

Even if, like, psychologically, Sam, I know you're big on the, like, money psychology stuff, The idea that you're living off a fixed or finite amount just really changes how you view things, even if it's a ton of money versus this idea of, like, I make you know, whatever, a hundred thousand dollars a month or whatever.

Even if, like, psychologically, Sam, I know you're big on the, like, money psychology stuff, The idea that you're living off a fixed or finite amount just really changes how you view things, even if it's a ton of money versus this idea of, like, I make you know, whatever, a hundred thousand dollars a month or whatever.

53:49

Just the idea that it just comes in, it, like Well, dude, our,

Just the idea that it just comes in, it, like Well, dude, our,

53:52

me and Sean have this good friend who sold a business, and he walked away with sixty million dollars. And I go, that that feels awesome because it feels horrible, man. I go, why? He goes, I'm a Brown immigrant. I need cash flow. If I don't have cash flow, I feel broke. I need money coming in every month. I can't spend this. I think we should wrap it up. Jeremy, where should people find you if they wanna get more of you, follow you, become big fans of you? Where should they go?

me and Sean have this good friend who sold a business, and he walked away with sixty million dollars. And I go, that that feels awesome because it feels horrible, man. I go, why? He goes, I'm a Brown immigrant. I need cash flow. If I don't have cash flow, I feel broke. I need money coming in every month. I can't spend this. I think we should wrap it up. Jeremy, where should people find you if they wanna get more of you, follow you, become big fans of you? Where should they go?

54:15

Twitter, Jeremy Giffon.

Twitter, Jeremy Giffon.

54:17

My DMs are open.

My DMs are open.

54:19

Yeah. That's the best place. Awesome. Thanks for doing it, man. Really keep on hanging. Thank you, guys. That's the pod.

Yeah. That's the best place. Awesome. Thanks for doing it, man. Really keep on hanging. Thank you, guys. That's the pod.

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