00:00

Yep. Pubman is the government database of all scholastic biomedical literature, so thirty six million papers.

Yep. Pubman is the government database of all scholastic biomedical literature, so thirty six million papers.

00:06

If you sit there long enough and you have the passion, you can become a billionaire. It's just a matter of sitting there and sifting and sifting and sifting, which most people don't have the patience.

If you sit there long enough and you have the passion, you can become a billionaire. It's just a matter of sitting there and sifting and sifting and sifting, which most people don't have the patience.

00:15

Desire will power to do. But every single biomedical innovation is is logged in on Pomet.

Desire will power to do. But every single biomedical innovation is is logged in on Pomet.

00:29

What's up? We just had a conversation with Martin Screlli. If you don't know who he is, you could just Google his name and you'll find that he is quote, quote, the most hated man in America, or he is the farmer bro. And he's, you know, he touches kind of a bunch of different things. You know, the Bingo card for my first million. He's made hundreds of millions of dollars. He's super controversial,

What's up? We just had a conversation with Martin Screlli. If you don't know who he is, you could just Google his name and you'll find that he is quote, quote, the most hated man in America, or he is the farmer bro. And he's, you know, he touches kind of a bunch of different things. You know, the Bingo card for my first million. He's made hundreds of millions of dollars. He's super controversial,

00:48

and some people love him. Some people hate him. He went to prison for something that he did with his his hedge fund. And he comes on here and he tells us a bunch of things. He tells us how he made his first million. He gave his side of the story on

and some people love him. Some people hate him. He went to prison for something that he did with his his hedge fund. And he comes on here and he tells us a bunch of things. He tells us how he made his first million. He gave his side of the story on

01:01

why he bought that drug and raised the And why maybe it wasn't so evil as, as it was portrayed.

why he bought that drug and raised the And why maybe it wasn't so evil as, as it was portrayed.

01:07

Why he hates sort of vanilla CEOs that that, just only speak and corporate speak and why he refuses to do that.

Why he hates sort of vanilla CEOs that that, just only speak and corporate speak and why he refuses to do that.

01:13

Why he thinks Mark Cuban is full of shit. He also unveils his new startup in the AI space for the first time ever. So, pretty interesting conversation with Martin. He is,

Why he thinks Mark Cuban is full of shit. He also unveils his new startup in the AI space for the first time ever. So, pretty interesting conversation with Martin. He is,

01:23

he's one thing. He's not boring.

he's one thing. He's not boring.

01:25

You'll you'll look. I think we can all agree on that. Some people love them. Some people hate them. I think you see in this episode. You can see a couple different sides of them. And so I'm curious to hear what you guys think. I'd love for you to put in the comments. Whether you, you love this episode, you hated this episode or somewhere in between.

You'll you'll look. I think we can all agree on that. Some people love them. Some people hate them. I think you see in this episode. You can see a couple different sides of them. And so I'm curious to hear what you guys think. I'd love for you to put in the comments. Whether you, you love this episode, you hated this episode or somewhere in between.

01:39

And, you know, we always commit that on on this pod, you know, when we bring people on, we're not saying this is the best person ever or the worst, We just wanna have interesting conversations with interesting people. I wanna get into their mind and find out why they are the way they are, how they think, how they operate, then you can decide for yourself whether this is somebody you,

And, you know, we always commit that on on this pod, you know, when we bring people on, we're not saying this is the best person ever or the worst, We just wanna have interesting conversations with interesting people. I wanna get into their mind and find out why they are the way they are, how they think, how they operate, then you can decide for yourself whether this is somebody you,

01:55

you're into or not. So, that's this episode. Martin Screlly, it's about two hour interview and, enjoy.

you're into or not. So, that's this episode. Martin Screlly, it's about two hour interview and, enjoy.

02:02

Sam, where do you wanna start? I we could either go more on the AI stuff or

Sam, where do you wanna start? I we could either go more on the AI stuff or

02:06

there's there's some interesting stuff in your your kinda start of your career that I think is kinda fun. Like,

there's there's some interesting stuff in your your kinda start of your career that I think is kinda fun. Like,

02:12

you worked you worked with Jim Kramer. Is that right? When you were sixteen years old, you worked for Kramer, the guy who's always yelling on on CNBC.

you worked you worked with Jim Kramer. Is that right? When you were sixteen years old, you worked for Kramer, the guy who's always yelling on on CNBC.

02:20

What was that like? What's Kramer like?

What was that like? What's Kramer like?

02:22

Kramer's great. You know, hedge funds were a different world back then. It was a very, very small asset class, maybe

Kramer's great. You know, hedge funds were a different world back then. It was a very, very small asset class, maybe

02:30

fifty billion, a hundred billion total.

fifty billion, a hundred billion total.

02:33

You know, any private partnership

You know, any private partnership

02:35

is is technically kind of a hedge fund. Right? If you have outside investors and you're charging them one and twenty or two and twenty, and your short need stocks, doing the exotic stuff, you know, that's a hedge fund, whether you call it that or not. So Warren Buffett had a hedge fund. All the folks had edge fund. But at the time, the biggest hedge funds were Gallian Group SAC Capital,

is is technically kind of a hedge fund. Right? If you have outside investors and you're charging them one and twenty or two and twenty, and your short need stocks, doing the exotic stuff, you know, that's a hedge fund, whether you call it that or not. So Warren Buffett had a hedge fund. All the folks had edge fund. But at the time, the biggest hedge funds were Gallian Group SAC Capital,

02:55

you know, handful kind of, like, Tiger, Soros,

you know, handful kind of, like, Tiger, Soros,

02:58

You know, it was sort of the wild time for the hedge fund industry, kind of, you know, very, very small industry, maybe thirty or forty

You know, it was sort of the wild time for the hedge fund industry, kind of, you know, very, very small industry, maybe thirty or forty

03:05

or fifty firms of EvED and any significance.

or fifty firms of EvED and any significance.

03:09

And that means, like, you know, a hundred million dollars or more. And so Krainer was one of those firms. I got to work there. I was very lucky.

And that means, like, you know, a hundred million dollars or more. And so Krainer was one of those firms. I got to work there. I was very lucky.

03:16

You you were in high school at the time?

You you were in high school at the time?

03:18

I I was sort of in this, like, weird state of both being a high school dropout,

I I was sort of in this, like, weird state of both being a high school dropout,

03:23

a high school graduate,

a high school graduate,

03:25

and a high school

and a high school

03:26

you know, continuing, you know, kind of education. It was very weird. I had I went to this very special school called Hunter where I fulfilled all my re requirements

you know, continuing, you know, kind of education. It was very weird. I had I went to this very special school called Hunter where I fulfilled all my re requirements

03:35

pretty early. So I was already sort of graduated in the state's eyes, but I continued to sort of, like, go to the school and,

pretty early. So I was already sort of graduated in the state's eyes, but I continued to sort of, like, go to the school and,

03:42

pick up credits and, like, go to college at the same time. So it was just a weird,

pick up credits and, like, go to college at the same time. So it was just a weird,

03:47

like, mishmash of education.

like, mishmash of education.

03:49

And,

And,

03:50

sort of hard to explain, but Were you kind of, like, you're almost like a class clown of society now? Were you like that in high school or were you just, like, a straight laced kid at that time? Yeah. Absolutely. I was, like, just like this in high school. And I was if if there was somebody that needed sort of dressing down

sort of hard to explain, but Were you kind of, like, you're almost like a class clown of society now? Were you like that in high school or were you just, like, a straight laced kid at that time? Yeah. Absolutely. I was, like, just like this in high school. And I was if if there was somebody that needed sort of dressing down

04:09

or including, yeah, teacher, principal, whatever. I remember my first day of school, I actually dressed down the principal,

or including, yeah, teacher, principal, whatever. I remember my first day of school, I actually dressed down the principal,

04:15

a bit. That was sort of a funny

a bit. That was sort of a funny

04:17

you know, thing to do. You know, I I guess I have the, like, fearlessness

you know, thing to do. You know, I I guess I have the, like, fearlessness

04:20

of, you know But did your parents, like, discipline you? Or they're like, dude, what the fuck? Show some respect? Yeah.

of, you know But did your parents, like, discipline you? Or they're like, dude, what the fuck? Show some respect? Yeah.

04:27

You know, I I think But not really. I should pitch. You know, I don't know. You know, I've I think there's like this, you know,

You know, I I think But not really. I should pitch. You know, I don't know. You know, I've I think there's like this, you know,

04:35

I've always had this, you know, opinion that people take themselves too seriously and and take authority too seriously. And, of course, you know, I I landed myself in prison. What do you have? I think that, you know, there's,

I've always had this, you know, opinion that people take themselves too seriously and and take authority too seriously. And, of course, you know, I I landed myself in prison. What do you have? I think that, you know, there's,

04:46

And and and you are right. They do take themselves serious.

And and and you are right. They do take themselves serious.

04:50

Another prediction that you've gotten correct. I remember one one time.

Another prediction that you've gotten correct. I remember one one time.

04:54

Martin was on Blab, and again, the numbers were going crazy. I I was like, I gotta see what happened. He he he must be

Martin was on Blab, and again, the numbers were going crazy. I I was like, I gotta see what happened. He he he must be

04:59

acting to fool or something. I don't know what's going on. And,

acting to fool or something. I don't know what's going on. And,

05:03

I go in and there, CNN reporter,

I go in and there, CNN reporter,

05:07

was demanding, like, an interview with him. He was, like, she was, like, you, she's Martin. I've been watching this. It's really interesting. I would love to have a conversation with you at CNN.

was demanding, like, an interview with him. He was, like, she was, like, you, she's Martin. I've been watching this. It's really interesting. I would love to have a conversation with you at CNN.

05:16

He's like,

He's like,

05:17

no. No. You come on my show. This is my show. You wanna interview me? We could do it right here. And she's like, okay. I'm not gonna do that, but if you come on CNN, he's like, no, he'll come on the show. And then she's, like, refusing or whatever. He's, like, then she's she starts, like, trying to, like, have a moment to, like, tell him how bad he is, and then he asked her. He's like, I'm going to the gala tonight. You wanna be my plus

no. No. You come on my show. This is my show. You wanna interview me? We could do it right here. And she's like, okay. I'm not gonna do that, but if you come on CNN, he's like, no, he'll come on the show. And then she's, like, refusing or whatever. He's, like, then she's she starts, like, trying to, like, have a moment to, like, tell him how bad he is, and then he asked her. He's like, I'm going to the gala tonight. You wanna be my plus

05:40

they, like, butter a plate together. Didn't you end up going out? Didn't you go out with it? No. Not this one, but, I just thought, wow, what a, like,

they, like, butter a plate together. Didn't you end up going out? Didn't you go out with it? No. Not this one, but, I just thought, wow, what a, like,

05:48

you know, they don't teach that in PR school. Just ask him on a date

you know, they don't teach that in PR school. Just ask him on a date

05:51

if it's not going if the interview's not going well.

if it's not going if the interview's not going well.

05:55

Braaked breaking down the fourth wall is, like, my specialty. Right? Like, you know, I I and what Elon sort of did that to that BBC guy the other day. Like, I -- Yep. -- I would always ask.

Braaked breaking down the fourth wall is, like, my specialty. Right? Like, you know, I I and what Elon sort of did that to that BBC guy the other day. Like, I -- Yep. -- I would always ask.

06:04

I remember one of my analysts,

I remember one of my analysts,

06:06

who's on the sell side before joining me on the buy side, I brought a management team to come over to this sort of skipping ahead in my career a little bit to to having my own files.

who's on the sell side before joining me on the buy side, I brought a management team to come over to this sort of skipping ahead in my career a little bit to to having my own files.

06:16

They brought a management team over to, you know, pitch some stock or pitch a pipe or something. And I I asked the c CEO why he didn't he didn't own any stock in his company.

They brought a management team over to, you know, pitch some stock or pitch a pipe or something. And I I asked the c CEO why he didn't he didn't own any stock in his company.

06:26

And he, you know, he sort of, like, hemming and hawing. Like, you know, this that temperature's kinda getting hot. And I said, you know, because I I have your right here, like, I put a dumb table and I said, it looks like you make five hundred fifty thousand dollars a year. That's that's a good amount of money. Can you promise me today that you'll buy like, ten thousand or twenty thousand dollars of your stock at least. And and the guy's just sort of, like, you know, the most uncomfortable meeting in the history of Wall Street, you know, because I kept, like, hammering on it. I was like, no, but tell me, like, why can't you afford

And he, you know, he sort of, like, hemming and hawing. Like, you know, this that temperature's kinda getting hot. And I said, you know, because I I have your right here, like, I put a dumb table and I said, it looks like you make five hundred fifty thousand dollars a year. That's that's a good amount of money. Can you promise me today that you'll buy like, ten thousand or twenty thousand dollars of your stock at least. And and the guy's just sort of, like, you know, the most uncomfortable meeting in the history of Wall Street, you know, because I kept, like, hammering on it. I was like, no, but tell me, like, why can't you afford

06:54

to spend ten thousand dollars and buy your own stock? The stock price will go up. Everyone wins. You'll show confidence that, you know, And I just wouldn't, like, for twenty minutes, let it go.

to spend ten thousand dollars and buy your own stock? The stock price will go up. Everyone wins. You'll show confidence that, you know, And I just wouldn't, like, for twenty minutes, let it go.

07:04

And it was just, you know, one of these, like, you know, breaking down that force. Well, you're not, like, you're not supposed to do that, you know, his personal finances are up to him is what most portfolio managers would say. You know, he he's allowed to not own his stock. It's really his call.

And it was just, you know, one of these, like, you know, breaking down that force. Well, you're not, like, you're not supposed to do that, you know, his personal finances are up to him is what most portfolio managers would say. You know, he he's allowed to not own his stock. It's really his call.

07:18

But, you know, being able to sort of, like, you know, cut to the chase on half these things and, like, you know, address the elephant in the room is of the thing that I like to do, even if it's really uncomfortable or or difficult or embarrassing or, you know, full pall, you know, it's It's something that, you know, I'll I'll I'll just sort of, you know, cut to the chase with. Well, I remember when you got arrested,

But, you know, being able to sort of, like, you know, cut to the chase on half these things and, like, you know, address the elephant in the room is of the thing that I like to do, even if it's really uncomfortable or or difficult or embarrassing or, you know, full pall, you know, it's It's something that, you know, I'll I'll I'll just sort of, you know, cut to the chase with. Well, I remember when you got arrested,

07:38

the the headline was, like, you had to put up, like, your Fidelity account or something like that that had, like, sixty million dollars in it. And at the time, you were don't know how old you were thirty two or something. I mean, early thirties, very young.

the the headline was, like, you had to put up, like, your Fidelity account or something like that that had, like, sixty million dollars in it. And at the time, you were don't know how old you were thirty two or something. I mean, early thirties, very young.

07:52

And you I mean, it was a it was a significant amount of money and that was just your Fidelity account. Let alone, like, your, you know, the tutoring five,

And you I mean, it was a it was a significant amount of money and that was just your Fidelity account. Let alone, like, your, you know, the tutoring five,

08:00

you, you know, the the the farm the pharma companies that you'd found it was did you make your first bit of money when you started the hedge funds? And how did that come to be? Or were you already doing well just being at the hedge funds where you worked. Oh, it's a great question. So I never made money at hedge funds. I never really made a dollar.

you, you know, the the the farm the pharma companies that you'd found it was did you make your first bit of money when you started the hedge funds? And how did that come to be? Or were you already doing well just being at the hedge funds where you worked. Oh, it's a great question. So I never made money at hedge funds. I never really made a dollar.

08:19

Working at or owning? Both. So when I started at hedge funds, I was young and, you know, didn't really earn

Working at or owning? Both. So when I started at hedge funds, I was young and, you know, didn't really earn

08:26

money,

money,

08:27

which was fine. You know, I wasn't optimizing for that. You know, was optimizing for learning stuff, experience,

which was fine. You know, I wasn't optimizing for that. You know, was optimizing for learning stuff, experience,

08:35

good relationships,

good relationships,

08:37

I mostly succeeded in that. I think, you know, probably messed up some relationships. But regardless, you know, I did the best I could as a young guy. Start on my own fund.

I mostly succeeded in that. I think, you know, probably messed up some relationships. But regardless, you know, I did the best I could as a young guy. Start on my own fund.

08:46

Pretty pretty

Pretty pretty

08:47

terrible at doing the fund management business, you know, investing

terrible at doing the fund management business, you know, investing

08:51

being a good investor and being a good fund manager kind of like pretty different things

being a good investor and being a good fund manager kind of like pretty different things

08:56

is what I think most hedge fund entrepreneurs kinda learn you know,

is what I think most hedge fund entrepreneurs kinda learn you know,

08:59

you know, there you can be a really brilliant investor and and not manage the actual business well. And the business is to grow your assets as much as possible

you know, there you can be a really brilliant investor and and not manage the actual business well. And the business is to grow your assets as much as possible

09:08

provide the best sort of adjusted returns possible and satisfy your clients. And I didn't really wanna do any of that. You know, I just wanted to invest. And

provide the best sort of adjusted returns possible and satisfy your clients. And I didn't really wanna do any of that. You know, I just wanted to invest. And

09:17

I never took fees for many of my funds, which was very, like, you know, sort of bizarre.

I never took fees for many of my funds, which was very, like, you know, sort of bizarre.

09:23

And there were there sort of technical or legal reasons for that. But I never really made any money, in hedge funds. When I started my first drug company called Retrofen, which is now called Trevere, this is about ten years ago,

And there were there sort of technical or legal reasons for that. But I never really made any money, in hedge funds. When I started my first drug company called Retrofen, which is now called Trevere, this is about ten years ago,

09:34

that's sort of where everything for sort of came together for me. I I learned

that's sort of where everything for sort of came together for me. I I learned

09:38

pharma by being a hedge fund person for ten years in in hedge funds studying pharma, starting with the early Jim Kramer days where I was just figuring out what a stock and a bond was and then moving on to, you know, trading these things and working at hedge funds and stuff like that, And then starting my own, I I really mastered pharmaceuticals.

pharma by being a hedge fund person for ten years in in hedge funds studying pharma, starting with the early Jim Kramer days where I was just figuring out what a stock and a bond was and then moving on to, you know, trading these things and working at hedge funds and stuff like that, And then starting my own, I I really mastered pharmaceuticals.

09:56

I I knew everything about pharma.

I I knew everything about pharma.

09:58

And I pressed a lot of people in pharma, who are working in the field or working hedge funds.

And I pressed a lot of people in pharma, who are working in the field or working hedge funds.

10:03

And, you know, it's easy for me to sort of start a drug company and find some really good assets.

And, you know, it's easy for me to sort of start a drug company and find some really good assets.

10:08

The first asset I found actually received FDA approval just just a couple months ago. So I'm really proud of that. And,

The first asset I found actually received FDA approval just just a couple months ago. So I'm really proud of that. And,

10:15

when our company went public,

when our company went public,

10:16

you know, as a millionaire.

you know, as a millionaire.

10:18

How how how old were you? It was twenty twelve,

How how how old were you? It was twenty twelve,

10:22

you know, so I was born in eighty three. So, I guess, it was twenty nine. And,

you know, so I was born in eighty three. So, I guess, it was twenty nine. And,

10:26

I was a CEO, publicly traded company,

I was a CEO, publicly traded company,

10:29

and,

and,

10:31

the market capital company, like I said, now is, you know, one point five billion roughly.

the market capital company, like I said, now is, you know, one point five billion roughly.

10:35

And,

And,

10:36

the drug got FDA approved. I'm really happy about that. Like, so often in biotech, people start companies,

the drug got FDA approved. I'm really happy about that. Like, so often in biotech, people start companies,

10:42

they kind of extract some equity value out of them as they go public. And then the company's drugs don't work. And

they kind of extract some equity value out of them as they go public. And then the company's drugs don't work. And

10:48

they kind of move on. And there are people that have, like, coasted in biotech doing that, like, every three, five years. You know, I I I'd name some names, but it it doesn't matter, you know, and getting a drug FDA approved. And for me, kind of on my first try, was, you know, sort of like a very, you know, I'm a very, like, nice feather in my cap, and I'm happy for the people that are now getting this prescription for this kidney disease.

they kind of move on. And there are people that have, like, coasted in biotech doing that, like, every three, five years. You know, I I I'd name some names, but it it doesn't matter, you know, and getting a drug FDA approved. And for me, kind of on my first try, was, you know, sort of like a very, you know, I'm a very, like, nice feather in my cap, and I'm happy for the people that are now getting this prescription for this kidney disease.

11:11

Really delighted by that. But the, you know, the it was a lot of fun to to see that. So when people ask me, like, where'd you make your first million, I made my first, like, twenty five million, all one. You're still on the same day. You know, like, it it wasn't like, okay. You may be, like, one of my great friends started off making

Really delighted by that. But the, you know, the it was a lot of fun to to see that. So when people ask me, like, where'd you make your first million, I made my first, like, twenty five million, all one. You're still on the same day. You know, like, it it wasn't like, okay. You may be, like, one of my great friends started off making

11:29

Yeah. He's a great story in him. One day maybe he'll have him on his podcast.

Yeah. He's a great story in him. One day maybe he'll have him on his podcast.

11:33

He started off trading, sneakers.

He started off trading, sneakers.

11:36

And, he was, like, thirteen or something. And then he started trading cars, and he ended up trading stocks, and he he sort of went from a thousand bucks five thousand to a hundred thousand to a million to five million, you know, etcetera, etcetera. And, you know, that that road isn't when everyone does. Right? Like, some people I was, like, literally almost, like, starving, you know, and then, like, broke, you know, trying to get that big, big win and it came through.

And, he was, like, thirteen or something. And then he started trading cars, and he ended up trading stocks, and he he sort of went from a thousand bucks five thousand to a hundred thousand to a million to five million, you know, etcetera, etcetera. And, you know, that that road isn't when everyone does. Right? Like, some people I was, like, literally almost, like, starving, you know, and then, like, broke, you know, trying to get that big, big win and it came through.

11:59

And so you you said a couple things I wanna, quickly clarify. You say you didn't make much money in investing because you weren't really good at or interested in the fund management, but Presumably, if you're good at or interested in the investing side, you would still generate returns. So what ha was it, like, didn't didn't do so hot in the on the investing side either, or what happened there?

And so you you said a couple things I wanna, quickly clarify. You say you didn't make much money in investing because you weren't really good at or interested in the fund management, but Presumably, if you're good at or interested in the investing side, you would still generate returns. So what ha was it, like, didn't didn't do so hot in the on the investing side either, or what happened there?

12:19

Yeah. I had a sort of, like, a mix of of issues. You know, like, when you run a small fund, you have, like, costs and stuff like that. So you know, you have started How big was how big was the fun? I had about eight million,

Yeah. I had a sort of, like, a mix of of issues. You know, like, when you run a small fund, you have, like, costs and stuff like that. So you know, you have started How big was how big was the fun? I had about eight million,

12:31

you know, ever since I started. So, like, you know, you just can't, like, even with good investing, you just kinda can't do that well

you know, ever since I started. So, like, you know, you just can't, like, even with good investing, you just kinda can't do that well

12:38

with respect to to returns if you have other costs and things like that. And you know, we had, like, all kinds of, like,

with respect to to returns if you have other costs and things like that. And you know, we had, like, all kinds of, like,

12:45

issues happen along the way that that led to that prosecution and stuff like that. That sort of limited our our ability to to do really well financially.

issues happen along the way that that led to that prosecution and stuff like that. That sort of limited our our ability to to do really well financially.

12:53

And again, we we didn't take any fees either because, again, we have this sort of big issue that that came about, and we just decided to not take fees at all. But in the end, our investors did fairly well. You know, the record shows that our investors all make money in our funds, so I was really happy to deliver that. But, you know, along the way, there are a lot of twists and turns at hiccups that are they're not worth going into, but edge ones for me were kinda like,

And again, we we didn't take any fees either because, again, we have this sort of big issue that that came about, and we just decided to not take fees at all. But in the end, our investors did fairly well. You know, the record shows that our investors all make money in our funds, so I was really happy to deliver that. But, you know, along the way, there are a lot of twists and turns at hiccups that are they're not worth going into, but edge ones for me were kinda like,

13:17

just sort of like a roller coaster of of

just sort of like a roller coaster of of

13:20

issues that were just over, you know, and over again kind of like

issues that were just over, you know, and over again kind of like

13:25

various, like, you know, unexpected twists and turns that didn't really add up to profit. Some people with hedge funds, like, if you get off to, like, a good start,

various, like, you know, unexpected twists and turns that didn't really add up to profit. Some people with hedge funds, like, if you get off to, like, a good start,

13:34

For your first, like, three or six months, often you can get this momentum of raising more capital and raising more capital and you get this like virtuous cycle. You can also go in the other direction where, you know, if you, you know, many funds are started by good investors and they end up failing, and those investors sort of come back and take take a few years off and start a fund again.

For your first, like, three or six months, often you can get this momentum of raising more capital and raising more capital and you get this like virtuous cycle. You can also go in the other direction where, you know, if you, you know, many funds are started by good investors and they end up failing, and those investors sort of come back and take take a few years off and start a fund again.

13:52

You know, hedge funds have, like, the shortest lifespan. If you look at the top hedge funds from the nineties,

You know, hedge funds have, like, the shortest lifespan. If you look at the top hedge funds from the nineties,

13:58

Almost none of them exist today.

Almost none of them exist today.

14:01

And I think of those, like, top ten hedge funds of all time, like, five were shut down by regulatory.

And I think of those, like, top ten hedge funds of all time, like, five were shut down by regulatory.

14:06

Intervention.

Intervention.

14:07

It's, like, it's a very hazardous job. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's a, you know, ten percent chance. It's, like, I'm going going to jail being a head for manager. It's it's a really did you get a quote? Got a dangerous job to be at. And, you know, you're dealing with the markets and you're dealing with representations to investors.

It's, like, it's a very hazardous job. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's a, you know, ten percent chance. It's, like, I'm going going to jail being a head for manager. It's it's a really did you get a quote? Got a dangerous job to be at. And, you know, you're dealing with the markets and you're dealing with representations to investors.

14:23

Just how to mark privates, right, is is kinda like one of these, like, real debates. I know a guy who went to jail for that,

Just how to mark privates, right, is is kinda like one of these, like, real debates. I know a guy who went to jail for that,

14:29

fairly recently.

fairly recently.

14:31

You know, anybody looking into your book can basically say, oh, well, you marked this too high. You know, therefore, you, you know, you're you're defrauding your investors for charging them too much. Well, you marked it too well. Well, you're defrauding them because, you know, you're you're you're preferencing the other investors who are coming into the fund. So you you really can't can't win. It's a very tough business don't build any actual lasting value as, you know, almost no hedge funds have got public. So it's just kind of a crummy business in general. And, like, I I I don't recommend anyone kinda get into it unless they're so interested in stocks that they can't, you know, help but, like, spend their whole time looking at stocks like Kramer Back then, Kramer's like a stock addict. Right? So this guy again, I I consider him, you know, not quite a friend, but, like, I I I I have a fond memory of working with a I mean,

You know, anybody looking into your book can basically say, oh, well, you marked this too high. You know, therefore, you, you know, you're you're defrauding your investors for charging them too much. Well, you marked it too well. Well, you're defrauding them because, you know, you're you're you're preferencing the other investors who are coming into the fund. So you you really can't can't win. It's a very tough business don't build any actual lasting value as, you know, almost no hedge funds have got public. So it's just kind of a crummy business in general. And, like, I I I don't recommend anyone kinda get into it unless they're so interested in stocks that they can't, you know, help but, like, spend their whole time looking at stocks like Kramer Back then, Kramer's like a stock addict. Right? So this guy again, I I consider him, you know, not quite a friend, but, like, I I I I have a fond memory of working with a I mean,

15:19

he is like a a drug addict to their drug.

he is like a a drug addict to their drug.

15:23

He is like that to security. Like, he cannot get away from it. There's nothing he loves more in the world than stocks. And you think about people like Warren Buffett and say, maybe that's that's kinda like them. And the average person who wants to get into hedge funds, they wanted to get into it because, oh, I I can make ten million bucks or I can make fifty million bucks in a year. Wow. Look at that. Jim Simon made a billion dollars. I can be like that. That sounds great. And, you know, that's a terrible terrible terrible way to look at it. Right? If you wake up in the middle of night thinking about S and P earnings estimates, you should be a hedge funds. Right? But if you

He is like that to security. Like, he cannot get away from it. There's nothing he loves more in the world than stocks. And you think about people like Warren Buffett and say, maybe that's that's kinda like them. And the average person who wants to get into hedge funds, they wanted to get into it because, oh, I I can make ten million bucks or I can make fifty million bucks in a year. Wow. Look at that. Jim Simon made a billion dollars. I can be like that. That sounds great. And, you know, that's a terrible terrible terrible way to look at it. Right? If you wake up in the middle of night thinking about S and P earnings estimates, you should be a hedge funds. Right? But if you

15:51

don't care on a Sunday, you know, what's what the news is gonna be on Monday in the stock market or what, you know, your favorite company CEO is doing that night, You know, that that's it's not for you. And I think there are people that the hedge fund industry has grown so much. People come to finance, not understanding that. In the nineties and the eighties, the only that were in hedge funds were people like Jim and Buffett and people like like that that were just, like, so intensely insanely possessed by the gyrations of the market. And if that's not you, it it's it's kind of not a good industry. But for me, I I was sort of intensely possessed with pharmaceutical companies and pharmaceutical assets, drugs, and medicines. And, you know, it was actually a better fit to do private

don't care on a Sunday, you know, what's what the news is gonna be on Monday in the stock market or what, you know, your favorite company CEO is doing that night, You know, that that's it's not for you. And I think there are people that the hedge fund industry has grown so much. People come to finance, not understanding that. In the nineties and the eighties, the only that were in hedge funds were people like Jim and Buffett and people like like that that were just, like, so intensely insanely possessed by the gyrations of the market. And if that's not you, it it's it's kind of not a good industry. But for me, I I was sort of intensely possessed with pharmaceutical companies and pharmaceutical assets, drugs, and medicines. And, you know, it was actually a better fit to do private

16:30

equity

equity

16:31

you know, kind of style investing where you actually buy whole medicines, whole companies,

you know, kind of style investing where you actually buy whole medicines, whole companies,

16:37

you know, that that worked really well for me. And I've seen a lot of people in hedge funds sort of transition to that model of, well, if I can buy five percent of a software company, why can't I buy a hundred percent of a software company? Right? That that makes more sense to me. And for me, you lose that, like, one of the things I was very bad at at at trading and investing

you know, that that worked really well for me. And I've seen a lot of people in hedge funds sort of transition to that model of, well, if I can buy five percent of a software company, why can't I buy a hundred percent of a software company? Right? That that makes more sense to me. And for me, you lose that, like, one of the things I was very bad at at at trading and investing

16:52

was kind of that impulse, right, where you have to have this insanely good discipline

was kind of that impulse, right, where you have to have this insanely good discipline

16:58

as a trader, and my partner had this really, really great discipline. I didn't. So I could value a security as good as anyone in, but what it came times like executing and actually deploying capital and risk management, stuff like that. It was it was much harder for me to be good at that.

as a trader, and my partner had this really, really great discipline. I didn't. So I could value a security as good as anyone in, but what it came times like executing and actually deploying capital and risk management, stuff like that. It was it was much harder for me to be good at that.

17:14

So when it came back What is that? What what what what does that mean? Your not patient, you you wanted the dopamine hit you wanted the dopamine hit Every one of those things. You said it. It depends. You're you're just you're just you're just like a you have normal anxiety. Like, a lot of people, Is is that what that means? I think that, like, to ask somebody to manage a portfolio well is one of the most impossible tasks in, like, human psychology because the and this this great book. I've gotten better at it over the years, for what it's worth, and my my personal trading is as paradoxically like sword and profit as my, you know, I basically couldn't do that in in private investing.

So when it came back What is that? What what what what does that mean? Your not patient, you you wanted the dopamine hit you wanted the dopamine hit Every one of those things. You said it. It depends. You're you're just you're just you're just like a you have normal anxiety. Like, a lot of people, Is is that what that means? I think that, like, to ask somebody to manage a portfolio well is one of the most impossible tasks in, like, human psychology because the and this this great book. I've gotten better at it over the years, for what it's worth, and my my personal trading is as paradoxically like sword and profit as my, you know, I basically couldn't do that in in private investing.

17:48

The

The

17:49

the hardest thing to do is is really to fight two or three different for me

the hardest thing to do is is really to fight two or three different for me

17:53

specific demons that are psychologically based, but everyone has their own demon. For me, it's we're avoiding this this desire to double down. So the market is, like, this really

specific demons that are psychologically based, but everyone has their own demon. For me, it's we're avoiding this this desire to double down. So the market is, like, this really

18:03

tough psychological,

tough psychological,

18:05

battle where you're constantly gonna be humbled that your opinion is

battle where you're constantly gonna be humbled that your opinion is

18:10

wrong. That your thesis is wrong, that this stock is not cheap. You're wrong. It's not cheap at all, and you gotta sell it. And that's a really hard cognitively

wrong. That your thesis is wrong, that this stock is not cheap. You're wrong. It's not cheap at all, and you gotta sell it. And that's a really hard cognitively

18:19

to embrace

to embrace

18:21

every day.

every day.

18:22

You can embrace it every now and then. Oh, yeah. Obviously, I I I I bought this crap stock and I'm wrong.

You can embrace it every now and then. Oh, yeah. Obviously, I I I I bought this crap stock and I'm wrong.

18:28

But when you're right, you do get that dopamine hit. And you don't want to confront that loss of the dopamine hit or even worse, the

But when you're right, you do get that dopamine hit. And you don't want to confront that loss of the dopamine hit or even worse, the

18:35

acknowledgement that you were wrong, and you're gonna be wrong, like, forty fifty percent of the time at best, you know, say thirty five, forty percent of the time. And most people don't want them drunk ever. So the desire is sometimes to double down and just say, no. I mean, I know I'm right. This is an even better opportunity than it was before. If you keep doing that, you you basically will will go bankrupt.

acknowledgement that you were wrong, and you're gonna be wrong, like, forty fifty percent of the time at best, you know, say thirty five, forty percent of the time. And most people don't want them drunk ever. So the desire is sometimes to double down and just say, no. I mean, I know I'm right. This is an even better opportunity than it was before. If you keep doing that, you you basically will will go bankrupt.

18:57

And,

And,

18:58

I it's it's, like, the fastest way to go bankrupt.

I it's it's, like, the fastest way to go bankrupt.

19:01

And, you know, I've learned that trick, you know, a couple of times now. And and I think that You know, I've gotten better at sort of not doubling down, but yet to be really great trader, you gotta not just not double down. You also have to get out, you know, before all the damages And so I show I've started to do that well too. But, you know, these these pains are not pains your investors want you to learn on their buying. Right? They're they're,

And, you know, I've learned that trick, you know, a couple of times now. And and I think that You know, I've gotten better at sort of not doubling down, but yet to be really great trader, you gotta not just not double down. You also have to get out, you know, before all the damages And so I show I've started to do that well too. But, you know, these these pains are not pains your investors want you to learn on their buying. Right? They're they're,

19:22

their pains, you have to sort of, you know, be ready, you know, when you start your own funds. So I started starting my fund too early and stuff like that, but I think that I wouldn't I wouldn't change a lot

their pains, you have to sort of, you know, be ready, you know, when you start your own funds. So I started starting my fund too early and stuff like that, but I think that I wouldn't I wouldn't change a lot

19:30

in the sense that

in the sense that

19:32

when you have a fund,

when you have a fund,

19:34

you learn more about your industry. If you do it right, I think. You learn more about your industry than than

you learn more about your industry. If you do it right, I think. You learn more about your industry than than

19:39

than any other sort of job other than actually being in that industry. So you you learn a ton about what Wall Street wants. So let's say if you're a software analyst, it's really great to then have a software company because you know exactly kinda what the exit looks like and what, like, public company investors wanna see. And the same thing works in biotech biotech to handicap, like, oh, will this company or stock be a good stock? Well, you gotta figure out, will this drug be a good drug? And that's the exact same skill set you have to do when you're CEO. So you have that, like, you know,

than any other sort of job other than actually being in that industry. So you you learn a ton about what Wall Street wants. So let's say if you're a software analyst, it's really great to then have a software company because you know exactly kinda what the exit looks like and what, like, public company investors wanna see. And the same thing works in biotech biotech to handicap, like, oh, will this company or stock be a good stock? Well, you gotta figure out, will this drug be a good drug? And that's the exact same skill set you have to do when you're CEO. So you have that, like, you know,

20:07

crossover that's happening quite a bit more in biotech. I've I've seen that doesn't happen so much in tech. People who invest in tech generally don't wanna be operators. And the tricks that you have to learn on the operating side in tech are very different from biotech. And biotech You can actually, like, learn to pick up most of the operating stuff from being an investor,

crossover that's happening quite a bit more in biotech. I've I've seen that doesn't happen so much in tech. People who invest in tech generally don't wanna be operators. And the tricks that you have to learn on the operating side in tech are very different from biotech. And biotech You can actually, like, learn to pick up most of the operating stuff from being an investor,

20:25

whereas I think in tech, like, you know, being an investor himself or company certainly doesn't make you a program. You know, so Yeah. That's right. And and and that's what I was gonna ask you because you you you were, like, well, I started a pharmaceutical company because I love the asset I learned through it from finance, which is way different than, like, for example, my friend Cara started this company hint, which does, like, water because she was, like, my skin was bad, and I didn't wanna drink gatorade or coke anymore. So I, like, went inform I went and boiled fruit peels and made this fruit water. That's, like, tastes good. It's good for you. And we grew from there. Your founding story was like, oh, I found assets that were interesting. Like, it's, like, that's, like, foreign to me. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, like, If if there was a company, for example,

whereas I think in tech, like, you know, being an investor himself or company certainly doesn't make you a program. You know, so Yeah. That's right. And and and that's what I was gonna ask you because you you you were, like, well, I started a pharmaceutical company because I love the asset I learned through it from finance, which is way different than, like, for example, my friend Cara started this company hint, which does, like, water because she was, like, my skin was bad, and I didn't wanna drink gatorade or coke anymore. So I, like, went inform I went and boiled fruit peels and made this fruit water. That's, like, tastes good. It's good for you. And we grew from there. Your founding story was like, oh, I found assets that were interesting. Like, it's, like, that's, like, foreign to me. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, like, If if there was a company, for example,

21:04

my first hedge fund, we bought ten percent of this company, publicly traded company.

my first hedge fund, we bought ten percent of this company, publicly traded company.

21:08

And they had bought this ass from Bristol Myers, the major major drug company in New Jersey.

And they had bought this ass from Bristol Myers, the major major drug company in New Jersey.

21:13

And Bristol Myers spent, like, fifty million bucks developing this drug and they quit. They basically said, this doesn't fit our portfolio. We're not really going after the disease they were trying to go after was hypertension, which is very boring and that does not need another medicine. There's, like, sixty hypertension drugs. You know, that does not need this to be a sixty first. And they they just quit on the drug.

And Bristol Myers spent, like, fifty million bucks developing this drug and they quit. They basically said, this doesn't fit our portfolio. We're not really going after the disease they were trying to go after was hypertension, which is very boring and that does not need another medicine. There's, like, sixty hypertension drugs. You know, that does not need this to be a sixty first. And they they just quit on the drug.

21:32

There are people who have, like, really bad resistant hypertension

There are people who have, like, really bad resistant hypertension

21:35

and so forth. So I really like this asset. I like the way it worked. And I after Bristol Myers quit on it, the the publicly traded company and the financial crisis, they merged with another public trade company. So I went to the publicly traded company. And again, I only thing I have is a hedge fund moment. And I said, let me buy, and nobody's told a story by the way. So this is a good good time to tell it because it's really, you know, it's basically a story about how we went to this company with two million dollars and turned it into over a billion.

and so forth. So I really like this asset. I like the way it worked. And I after Bristol Myers quit on it, the the publicly traded company and the financial crisis, they merged with another public trade company. So I went to the publicly traded company. And again, I only thing I have is a hedge fund moment. And I said, let me buy, and nobody's told a story by the way. So this is a good good time to tell it because it's really, you know, it's basically a story about how we went to this company with two million dollars and turned it into over a billion.

22:01

You know, which is is kind of remarkable, but people do this in pharma every day. And my friend,

You know, which is is kind of remarkable, but people do this in pharma every day. And my friend,

22:06

and at the time of this section, my biggest investor, Mavikram Maswamy, he's now running for president. He basically took our our business model and supersized it. And, again, you know, who who influenced too as as a matter of what's left really left to history. But the the point is we went to this company that had the license from Bristol,

and at the time of this section, my biggest investor, Mavikram Maswamy, he's now running for president. He basically took our our business model and supersized it. And, again, you know, who who influenced too as as a matter of what's left really left to history. But the the point is we went to this company that had the license from Bristol,

22:24

and they had they were doing anything with it. And we said, let's listen. We'll take this. We'll find investors. We'll build a company around it and

and they had they were doing anything with it. And we said, let's listen. We'll take this. We'll find investors. We'll build a company around it and

22:31

I'm gonna figure out how to how to make this work. And they said, okay. Sure. You know, we we got this asset sitting here doing nothing. If you pass two million bucks, we'll We'll send you the two million bucks. Now

I'm gonna figure out how to how to make this work. And they said, okay. Sure. You know, we we got this asset sitting here doing nothing. If you pass two million bucks, we'll We'll send you the two million bucks. Now

22:41

we sent them a million dollars, which was really catastrophic because you never wanna sort of go back in your word.

we sent them a million dollars, which was really catastrophic because you never wanna sort of go back in your word.

22:47

But it was really, like, a dire circumstance where I forgot what happened exactly, but we just couldn't fill up the money. And it was like, we sent them a million, and they're like, what the fuck? You know, you can't do this.

But it was really, like, a dire circumstance where I forgot what happened exactly, but we just couldn't fill up the money. And it was like, we sent them a million, and they're like, what the fuck? You know, you can't do this.

22:56

You know, and I I was sort of like, you know, jeez, this is a, you know, huge embarrassment or huge problem, but she's gonna have to give us, like, thirty days or ninety days. And, you know, we we worked it out and we were able to give them the second million, but it was, like, this colossal embarrassment. It's right at the start. And,

You know, and I I was sort of like, you know, jeez, this is a, you know, huge embarrassment or huge problem, but she's gonna have to give us, like, thirty days or ninety days. And, you know, we we worked it out and we were able to give them the second million, but it was, like, this colossal embarrassment. It's right at the start. And,

23:13

you know, shit does happen, but, you know, it ideally shouldn't happen like that. And, again, really embarrassing and tough, but we got them to two million.

you know, shit does happen, but, you know, it ideally shouldn't happen like that. And, again, really embarrassing and tough, but we got them to two million.

23:21

And we decided I I sort of did all this research and said, instead of hypertension, we should go this rear kidney disease called vocal segmental glomerulusclerosis,

And we decided I I sort of did all this research and said, instead of hypertension, we should go this rear kidney disease called vocal segmental glomerulusclerosis,

23:29

And if you just go on pubmed and you have the willpower,

And if you just go on pubmed and you have the willpower,

23:32

you can learn a lot about medicine and you can dive in and really Pubmed pubmed just being like a database of articles.

you can learn a lot about medicine and you can dive in and really Pubmed pubmed just being like a database of articles.

23:38

Yeah. Palmedicines,

Yeah. Palmedicines,

23:39

I guess. Yep. Pubmed is the government database of all scholastic biomedical literature. So thirty six million papers.

I guess. Yep. Pubmed is the government database of all scholastic biomedical literature. So thirty six million papers.

23:46

If you sit there long enough and you have the passion, you can become a billionaire. It's just a matter of sitting there and sifting and sifting and sifting, which most people don't have the patience.

If you sit there long enough and you have the passion, you can become a billionaire. It's just a matter of sitting there and sifting and sifting and sifting, which most people don't have the patience.

23:55

Desire willpower to do, but every single biomedical innovation is is logged in on PubMed and And you were sifting for what? What were you looking for when you went on PubMed? Yeah. You you have to put the pieces together. So the the this drug was an endothelial receptor antagonist.

Desire willpower to do, but every single biomedical innovation is is logged in on PubMed and And you were sifting for what? What were you looking for when you went on PubMed? Yeah. You you have to put the pieces together. So the the this drug was an endothelial receptor antagonist.

24:11

And what does that mean? It it it inhibits a protein called endothelan and its function. Well, what will that do? Right? You have to decide, well, you have to learn. Where is endothelan that it expressed in the body? How does work? What does it do? If I stop and to see one from working, what benefits will that have? What problems will that result in? And you have to look at the history of, okay, while other companies have tried this, What have they seen? What have they discovered? And what's what's interesting about pharma is that you think that these companies cover the waterfront, but they really just prod and poke a little bit actually probably ten diseases that this drug could be beneficial for. And, I made a list of those, and I said, okay. Well, which one of these is gonna work for sure? And there are companies that, like, got half the answer and stuff like that, and you just have to keep poking. And we found, like, these handful of diseases that really made a lot of sense. Now the problem was nobody in Wall Street really liked it. You know, it was very,

And what does that mean? It it it inhibits a protein called endothelan and its function. Well, what will that do? Right? You have to decide, well, you have to learn. Where is endothelan that it expressed in the body? How does work? What does it do? If I stop and to see one from working, what benefits will that have? What problems will that result in? And you have to look at the history of, okay, while other companies have tried this, What have they seen? What have they discovered? And what's what's interesting about pharma is that you think that these companies cover the waterfront, but they really just prod and poke a little bit actually probably ten diseases that this drug could be beneficial for. And, I made a list of those, and I said, okay. Well, which one of these is gonna work for sure? And there are companies that, like, got half the answer and stuff like that, and you just have to keep poking. And we found, like, these handful of diseases that really made a lot of sense. Now the problem was nobody in Wall Street really liked it. You know, it was very,

25:01

you know, kind of early.

you know, kind of early.

25:02

You know, there was this sort of tough problem of,

You know, there was this sort of tough problem of,

25:06

If you reduce the amount of protein in the urine of a patient, does that really save their kidney? And I thought I convinced everyone that I could reduce the amount of protein in the urine, which was a a very big endpoint to me, but not as conclusive as, okay, am I am I saving their lives, am I am I preventing dialysis skinny failure, which is really the the so called hard endpoint. So I had the soft endpoint that, like, seemed, like, almost certain I was right. And I was starting to vent convince companies like ABby and and Brotex and other, like, biopharmas

If you reduce the amount of protein in the urine of a patient, does that really save their kidney? And I thought I convinced everyone that I could reduce the amount of protein in the urine, which was a a very big endpoint to me, but not as conclusive as, okay, am I am I saving their lives, am I am I preventing dialysis skinny failure, which is really the the so called hard endpoint. So I had the soft endpoint that, like, seemed, like, almost certain I was right. And I was starting to vent convince companies like ABby and and Brotex and other, like, biopharmas

25:35

that, you know, I was on to something, but nobody wants to write a check. You know? So I I basically got one of the management teams that I I I used to deal with on on Wall Street, to invest. And I slowly kind of cobbled together some money.

that, you know, I was on to something, but nobody wants to write a check. You know? So I I basically got one of the management teams that I I I used to deal with on on Wall Street, to invest. And I slowly kind of cobbled together some money.

25:48

Med folks like Peter Teel and others to to try to sort of get some investors.

Med folks like Peter Teel and others to to try to sort of get some investors.

25:52

Did reverse merger.

Did reverse merger.

25:54

What what's Peter Teal like? Peter is great. You know, it was, you know, ten ten plus years ago. He had never done pharma.

What what's Peter Teal like? Peter is great. You know, it was, you know, ten ten plus years ago. He had never done pharma.

26:00

So we we got to me, and this was gonna be basically, like, his first farm, a deal ever. We didn't end up doing the deal, But it was,

So we we got to me, and this was gonna be basically, like, his first farm, a deal ever. We didn't end up doing the deal, But it was,

26:08

it was a very funny thing because, like, there was this East Coast or West Coast mentality.

it was a very funny thing because, like, there was this East Coast or West Coast mentality.

26:12

You know, as a Wall Street guy, He was, you know, he's obviously, you know, one of the the top VC type guys, and this is a time where, like, he had Clarium, you know, their their founder slot was just getting started and stuff like that. And,

You know, as a Wall Street guy, He was, you know, he's obviously, you know, one of the the top VC type guys, and this is a time where, like, he had Clarium, you know, their their founder slot was just getting started and stuff like that. And,

26:24

you know,

you know,

26:25

the wheeling dealing, like Wall Street sort of style of, like, oh, we're gonna do a reverse merger, which is basically kinda like a spack with no money.

the wheeling dealing, like Wall Street sort of style of, like, oh, we're gonna do a reverse merger, which is basically kinda like a spack with no money.

26:33

You know, it's like even worse than spec.

You know, it's like even worse than spec.

26:36

You know, you do the you do the listing, and then you raise the money. But it's a way to go public, and and we did it. And he was like, ah, you can't go public in a year or two. And, you know, the reality is you you kinda can, and especially a biopharma, where the assets are, like, these very modular systems. They're not like a base business that has x dollars revenue and is growing at x rate. These are like, okay, this asset's worth something dead or alive. In other words, if it's being developed or not being developed towards something,

You know, you do the you do the listing, and then you raise the money. But it's a way to go public, and and we did it. And he was like, ah, you can't go public in a year or two. And, you know, the reality is you you kinda can, and especially a biopharma, where the assets are, like, these very modular systems. They're not like a base business that has x dollars revenue and is growing at x rate. These are like, okay, this asset's worth something dead or alive. In other words, if it's being developed or not being developed towards something,

27:03

you know, especially with the right business plan, it could be worth a lot. So anyway, we we we decided publicly raised the money, we started doing clinical trials. The trial worked,

you know, especially with the right business plan, it could be worth a lot. So anyway, we we we decided publicly raised the money, we started doing clinical trials. The trial worked,

27:11

and the rest is history. But it took, you know, it takes hundreds of million dollars to to develop a drug.

and the rest is history. But it took, you know, it takes hundreds of million dollars to to develop a drug.

27:17

Again, the value of the company is is one point five. The value of that drug specifically is probably around one billion.

Again, the value of the company is is one point five. The value of that drug specifically is probably around one billion.

27:23

Again, whether it actually achieves the sales goals or beats them or disappoints what we'll see as the drug launches. And I'm rooting for the company,

Again, whether it actually achieves the sales goals or beats them or disappoints what we'll see as the drug launches. And I'm rooting for the company,

27:32

But, So you you you didn't even you didn't even get the drug. In this example, you didn't get the drug to the point where people were buying it or using it. It was you made money off just the the fact that this will exist hopefully in ten or whatever years. Yeah. And this is where Well, a lot of people don't know my story about medicine. A lot of people think that I take medicines and raise prices. Well, this drug was barely in human beings. It had been in, like, thirty or fifty people.

But, So you you you didn't even you didn't even get the drug. In this example, you didn't get the drug to the point where people were buying it or using it. It was you made money off just the the fact that this will exist hopefully in ten or whatever years. Yeah. And this is where Well, a lot of people don't know my story about medicine. A lot of people think that I take medicines and raise prices. Well, this drug was barely in human beings. It had been in, like, thirty or fifty people.

27:58

Helps up until that point. And, you know, I I've made most of my money, in in sort of developments in in environment on the research side. So You know, this is drug in clinical research. I know it's not it hadn't been FDA approved. It would take ten years to get it FDA approved. So it was a long marathon of running studies getting the evidence, running more studies, getting more evidence, and continuing that process. And, you know, as we started to do that, the values of the company increased. And people said, okay. I think I get this. And then as the data came in, now it's FDA approved. It's called PhilSpari.

Helps up until that point. And, you know, I I've made most of my money, in in sort of developments in in environment on the research side. So You know, this is drug in clinical research. I know it's not it hadn't been FDA approved. It would take ten years to get it FDA approved. So it was a long marathon of running studies getting the evidence, running more studies, getting more evidence, and continuing that process. And, you know, as we started to do that, the values of the company increased. And people said, okay. I think I get this. And then as the data came in, now it's FDA approved. It's called PhilSpari.

28:28

I named the drug sparsentan,

I named the drug sparsentan,

28:31

you know, gave it his first chemical name. And,

you know, gave it his first chemical name. And,

28:34

you know, it's it's, you know, I'm so happy. It's it's FDA approved. Now I left the company halfway through this process, so I should acknowledge that. But, you know, all the same plans and and so forth, you know, continued. Did did you did you own most of it at the time? Or what was that? And did you have to divest when all the shit went down?

you know, it's it's, you know, I'm so happy. It's it's FDA approved. Now I left the company halfway through this process, so I should acknowledge that. But, you know, all the same plans and and so forth, you know, continued. Did did you did you own most of it at the time? Or what was that? And did you have to divest when all the shit went down?

28:50

So I went from ninety, you know, when I when you started it to fifty,

So I went from ninety, you know, when I when you started it to fifty,

28:55

when we're public, I think we're at around forty or fifty sent after our first financing, down to thirty, and or second financing down to twenty. You know, so at the time of our IPO, we re we when you do a reverse merger, you often don't get on on Nasdaq. So we we did an IPO on NASDAQ twenty fourteen. And the company was worth, like, three or four hundred million. And I owed about fifteen, twenty percent of it. And, again, this is sort of, like, my first wealth ever. But the funny thing is,

when we're public, I think we're at around forty or fifty sent after our first financing, down to thirty, and or second financing down to twenty. You know, so at the time of our IPO, we re we when you do a reverse merger, you often don't get on on Nasdaq. So we we did an IPO on NASDAQ twenty fourteen. And the company was worth, like, three or four hundred million. And I owed about fifteen, twenty percent of it. And, again, this is sort of, like, my first wealth ever. But the funny thing is,

29:18

as you guys maybe know, you have a situation like that. You actually don't have any cash. You're not liquid. Yeah. You can't sell it. So, you know, I've I've got millions of shares of the stock, but, you know, I'm sitting there saying, okay. Well You're like, how am I gonna buy this? Thing album.

as you guys maybe know, you have a situation like that. You actually don't have any cash. You're not liquid. Yeah. You can't sell it. So, you know, I've I've got millions of shares of the stock, but, you know, I'm sitting there saying, okay. Well You're like, how am I gonna buy this? Thing album.

29:31

Yeah. Because, well, you know, but well before that, you think about, like, how am I gonna buy this five thousand dollar a month apartment and go to seven thousand dollar a month apartment, which is, like, a very funny discussion for somebody that, you know, has fifty or a hundred million dollars,

Yeah. Because, well, you know, but well before that, you think about, like, how am I gonna buy this five thousand dollar a month apartment and go to seven thousand dollar a month apartment, which is, like, a very funny discussion for somebody that, you know, has fifty or a hundred million dollars,

29:44

of of of stock value. And I would go to these banks and say, listen, Can I borrow five percent,

of of of stock value. And I would go to these banks and say, listen, Can I borrow five percent,

29:50

you know, of my money, of my stock value? And they would say no. And, you know, I'd I'd say, you know,

you know, of my money, of my stock value? And they would say no. And, you know, I'd I'd say, you know,

29:56

you know, why not? You know, and they'd say, well, you're it's a new stock. You know, it's it's kind of, you know, still, you know, a little bit unseasoned. You're the big shareholder, you know, we're just not comfortable with it. And it's like sitting there, like, oh my god. You know, this is insane because I don't wanna sell my stock because it sounds like kind of a bad signal.

you know, why not? You know, and they'd say, well, you're it's a new stock. You know, it's it's kind of, you know, still, you know, a little bit unseasoned. You're the big shareholder, you know, we're just not comfortable with it. And it's like sitting there, like, oh my god. You know, this is insane because I don't wanna sell my stock because it sounds like kind of a bad signal.

30:13

To the market.

To the market.

30:14

You know, but I don't wanna, you know,

You know, but I don't wanna, you know,

30:17

also be starving. So it was a very, like, funny thing. And I don't wanna be one of those greedy CEOs that has you know, an insane salary,

also be starving. So it was a very, like, funny thing. And I don't wanna be one of those greedy CEOs that has you know, an insane salary,

30:25

where you don't need it. So it was very just sort of a funny circumstance, but eventually,

where you don't need it. So it was very just sort of a funny circumstance, but eventually,

30:29

we had a big squabble at the company

we had a big squabble at the company

30:32

I ended up leaving,

I ended up leaving,

30:34

sorry, tumultuous and and

sorry, tumultuous and and

30:37

traumatic story in a lot of ways. And it led to my prosecution.

traumatic story in a lot of ways. And it led to my prosecution.

30:41

You know, there was this fight with with the board, and it got very so nasty that the the the board,

You know, there was this fight with with the board, and it got very so nasty that the the the board,

30:47

you know, kind of evil people here, but the board sort of went to law enforcement,

you know, kind of evil people here, but the board sort of went to law enforcement,

30:52

as kinda one of their ways to win this fight.

as kinda one of their ways to win this fight.

30:55

And, you know, one of the things that a lot of people don't understand is that There's this big revolving door between corporate law and law enforcement. When I said, law enforcement, I mean, the attorney general,

And, you know, one of the things that a lot of people don't understand is that There's this big revolving door between corporate law and law enforcement. When I said, law enforcement, I mean, the attorney general,

31:04

sorry, AUSA is the associate

sorry, AUSA is the associate

31:07

US attorneys that work in Department of Justice.

US attorneys that work in Department of Justice.

31:10

And it's not hard if you go to a law firm, you know, like a cool, e, cleary, godly,

And it's not hard if you go to a law firm, you know, like a cool, e, cleary, godly,

31:16

ad in arabs, pick your Paul Weiss, pick your biggest law firm, you say, hey, we have this guy. You did something bad. You know, look into this. You know, usually you'll get in a dive in pretty fast. This happened at the Google guy

ad in arabs, pick your Paul Weiss, pick your biggest law firm, you say, hey, we have this guy. You did something bad. You know, look into this. You know, usually you'll get in a dive in pretty fast. This happened at the Google guy

31:27

that, had the,

that, had the,

31:29

left waymo. Yep. Andrew

left waymo. Yep. Andrew

31:31

this happened to a Goldman Sachs trader that

this happened to a Goldman Sachs trader that

31:34

stole some source code, like, email emailed to himself home,

stole some source code, like, email emailed to himself home,

31:38

to work on the source code, then he went to another hedge fund. They said, see, stole in electronically. FBI got him in in forty eight hours. Goldman makes a phone call.

to work on the source code, then he went to another hedge fund. They said, see, stole in electronically. FBI got him in in forty eight hours. Goldman makes a phone call.

31:46

They'll act on it quickly. Google makes a phone call. They'll act on it quickly. You're big in law firm customer, you're paying a law firm ten million bucks, and all those law firm partners

They'll act on it quickly. Google makes a phone call. They'll act on it quickly. You're big in law firm customer, you're paying a law firm ten million bucks, and all those law firm partners

31:56

worked in government. Right? They worked literally in the job that could get united they could pick up a phone and get it and make it happen. And I actually have, like, the person's name who picked up the phone. You know, and it's it's like so ridiculous because

worked in government. Right? They worked literally in the job that could get united they could pick up a phone and get it and make it happen. And I actually have, like, the person's name who picked up the phone. You know, and it's it's like so ridiculous because

32:07

a boardroom battle, corporate squabble

a boardroom battle, corporate squabble

32:09

shouldn't turn into, you know, okay. We'll just make call and get, you know, get this guy arrested, then we'll win the fight. Right? And it's like, you know, I I was actually acquitted of those charges. And I'm so proud of that.

shouldn't turn into, you know, okay. We'll just make call and get, you know, get this guy arrested, then we'll win the fight. Right? And it's like, you know, I I was actually acquitted of those charges. And I'm so proud of that.

32:22

To this day, it's like the the most

To this day, it's like the the most

32:24

the happiest thing that I have to look forward to or to talk about because, like, it was this clash of, like, these old hand old older

the happiest thing that I have to look forward to or to talk about because, like, it was this clash of, like, these old hand old older

32:33

incompetent sort of biotech people, and this these younger sort of, like, aggressive executives that that I sharpened

incompetent sort of biotech people, and this these younger sort of, like, aggressive executives that that I sharpened

32:40

And the older guys kinda won in terms of control of the company, but the stock never went up again, really. And, you know, it it it just was sort of this

And the older guys kinda won in terms of control of the company, but the stock never went up again, really. And, you know, it it it just was sort of this

32:49

company that they were able to sort of siphon millions of dollars out out of,

company that they were able to sort of siphon millions of dollars out out of,

32:53

which is, like, for for a lot of talentless executives, like, that's that's really exciting. Like, getting a

which is, like, for for a lot of talentless executives, like, that's that's really exciting. Like, getting a

32:59

a five million dollar paycheck a year plus a, you know, golden parachute plus all the perks and the power of being the CEO Like, none of that stuff mattered to me. I just wanted to make really big money and really big advances.

a five million dollar paycheck a year plus a, you know, golden parachute plus all the perks and the power of being the CEO Like, none of that stuff mattered to me. I just wanted to make really big money and really big advances.

33:13

And for a lot of people, like, you know, Getting that the thing I just discussed was, like, that's their wife goal. That's their career goal. There's no

And for a lot of people, like, you know, Getting that the thing I just discussed was, like, that's their wife goal. That's their career goal. There's no

33:21

no need to do anything else. They they'd rather preside over a company that does nothing.

no need to do anything else. They they'd rather preside over a company that does nothing.

33:26

What pays them five million bucks a year than a company that makes a huge advance in in a treatment or whatever. So it was this big fight, and And I just basically said, I'll I'll start a new company. I don't need you guys, and I started, Turing. We should, let you explain

What pays them five million bucks a year than a company that makes a huge advance in in a treatment or whatever. So it was this big fight, and And I just basically said, I'll I'll start a new company. I don't need you guys, and I started, Turing. We should, let you explain

33:40

kind of the thing. Because if if people listen to this, have basically only heard heard of you as the guy who jacked up the price of the drugs. And I've heard you explain this before many times where, again,

kind of the thing. Because if if people listen to this, have basically only heard heard of you as the guy who jacked up the price of the drugs. And I've heard you explain this before many times where, again,

33:50

I said you were entertaining because somebody would come on and be like, you're the worst. You're, like, you're evil. You did this. And then you would say,

I said you were entertaining because somebody would come on and be like, you're the worst. You're, like, you're evil. You did this. And then you would say,

33:57

So explain to me what I did exactly. And then they would immediately not know what the hell to say. Like, you you raised the price of the drug, and now people can't get it. You're like, tell me, who can't get it? Where are you getting that data from? Like, what what and you would walk them through almost like the socratic method

So explain to me what I did exactly. And then they would immediately not know what the hell to say. Like, you you raised the price of the drug, and now people can't get it. You're like, tell me, who can't get it? Where are you getting that data from? Like, what what and you would walk them through almost like the socratic method

34:11

of,

of,

34:12

what actually happened, why what your perspective was on it. And so I want you to share that because I think a lot of people have heard the other perspective, which is guy buys drug, raises price, he's evil. That's one perspective. I'd like you to share your perspective, and then people can decide for themselves

what actually happened, why what your perspective was on it. And so I want you to share that because I think a lot of people have heard the other perspective, which is guy buys drug, raises price, he's evil. That's one perspective. I'd like you to share your perspective, and then people can decide for themselves

34:26

which they feel to be more true.

which they feel to be more true.

34:29

So And you didn't even and and it was another funny part related as you didn't even go to prison for that reason. You had you if I remember correctly, you admitted you were wrong for a bunch of things

So And you didn't even and and it was another funny part related as you didn't even go to prison for that reason. You had you if I remember correctly, you admitted you were wrong for a bunch of things

34:38

but it wasn't even related. Your persona was you're you're

but it wasn't even related. Your persona was you're you're

34:42

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you're I think you being smug and being an asshole when maybe you should have just been like, yes, ma'am. I'm sorry. Was maybe probably the more appropriate answer, but you weren't kinda like being smug and you've got a lot of shit for that. So I think that hurt your your your thing, but you didn't even get you didn't get prosecuted for that. No. Yeah. It's not a it's I mean, I I think that's why it was so small because it's not a crime to choose the price of your product. You know, if you guys wanted to charge for for this podcast. Right? You, you know, whether it's an advertiser or a partner or or or the listener, maybe you could pick whatever price you want. You know, that's your call. You know, it's your job to explore the frontier of that price and volume curve, and it your job to sort of find the maximum revenue

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you're I think you being smug and being an asshole when maybe you should have just been like, yes, ma'am. I'm sorry. Was maybe probably the more appropriate answer, but you weren't kinda like being smug and you've got a lot of shit for that. So I think that hurt your your your thing, but you didn't even get you didn't get prosecuted for that. No. Yeah. It's not a it's I mean, I I think that's why it was so small because it's not a crime to choose the price of your product. You know, if you guys wanted to charge for for this podcast. Right? You, you know, whether it's an advertiser or a partner or or or the listener, maybe you could pick whatever price you want. You know, that's your call. You know, it's your job to explore the frontier of that price and volume curve, and it your job to sort of find the maximum revenue

35:22

you can choose to do that or not do that. And I think that's why American capitalism is so great is, like, it's it's really the only person's call is the firm owner and the firm management team's call. Right? It's not a politician's call. It's not the media's call. It's not the guy in the you know, in this sort of, grandstand's call, you know, you know, hooting and hollering at you, it's it's not even the patient's call, even though they're your core constituent, and we care the most about them.

you can choose to do that or not do that. And I think that's why American capitalism is so great is, like, it's it's really the only person's call is the firm owner and the firm management team's call. Right? It's not a politician's call. It's not the media's call. It's not the guy in the you know, in this sort of, grandstand's call, you know, you know, hooting and hollering at you, it's it's not even the patient's call, even though they're your core constituent, and we care the most about them.

35:48

It's it's your call as management team. Right? You set that price. When you email the distributor, that's the price that matters. It's the price that you picked, and nobody can tell you what for that price is. And any And and and what was that what was that logic that you that Sean was referring to? Well, the the criticism would be you you yes. Yes. You had the right to raise the price. That doesn't mean you're not a jerk or that people weren't hurt by that because they now couldn't afford it. So now address that part of it.

It's it's your call as management team. Right? You set that price. When you email the distributor, that's the price that matters. It's the price that you picked, and nobody can tell you what for that price is. And any And and and what was that what was that logic that you that Sean was referring to? Well, the the criticism would be you you yes. Yes. You had the right to raise the price. That doesn't mean you're not a jerk or that people weren't hurt by that because they now couldn't afford it. So now address that part of it.

36:15

The reverse psychology is the super important. I'll go through that in a second, but I think the most of, you know, what you said is is really important because it's this, like, inviolable right

The reverse psychology is the super important. I'll go through that in a second, but I think the most of, you know, what you said is is really important because it's this, like, inviolable right

36:23

And I I was really pissed off quite frankly that there was this effort by by Paul Wannabe would be politicians that didn't end up winning

And I I was really pissed off quite frankly that there was this effort by by Paul Wannabe would be politicians that didn't end up winning

36:31

and and others to try to sort of take that right away,

and and others to try to sort of take that right away,

36:36

through, like, this

through, like, this

36:38

regulation by embarrassment.

regulation by embarrassment.

36:40

Right? Like, it was, like, this, like, we'll shame you until you change your mind. It's like, oh, you're to shame you into changing my mind. And, like, you know, that that's insane. You're trying to take my my right away. It's my right to run my business how I see fit. Now we'll go through all the logic of why I think it was a good idea and a tenable idea, and it's not something a jerk would do. It's not something an asshole would do. But just first and foremost, you know, how dare you try to tell me, you know, what my price should be because ultimately every person in America is working for some business that sets their price. And you're basically saying, well, if you do it to me, well, you can do to Apple are you gonna tell them the iPhones to expensive? Are you gonna do it to your podcast where an advertiser says, oh my god. You want fifty thousand dollars to post a an ad on my podcast? Well, that's alright. I want that for twenty five thousand. My You know, you're not getting yet. And, you know, I think that there's this special difference

Right? Like, it was, like, this, like, we'll shame you until you change your mind. It's like, oh, you're to shame you into changing my mind. And, like, you know, that that's insane. You're trying to take my my right away. It's my right to run my business how I see fit. Now we'll go through all the logic of why I think it was a good idea and a tenable idea, and it's not something a jerk would do. It's not something an asshole would do. But just first and foremost, you know, how dare you try to tell me, you know, what my price should be because ultimately every person in America is working for some business that sets their price. And you're basically saying, well, if you do it to me, well, you can do to Apple are you gonna tell them the iPhones to expensive? Are you gonna do it to your podcast where an advertiser says, oh my god. You want fifty thousand dollars to post a an ad on my podcast? Well, that's alright. I want that for twenty five thousand. My You know, you're not getting yet. And, you know, I think that there's this special difference

37:28

when it comes to health care. And I I've learned this. It processed it slowly.

when it comes to health care. And I I've learned this. It processed it slowly.

37:31

And like I said, I'll tell you briefly about my new company in a minute. But people treat health care products and services in a different part of the mind. You know, friend of mine worked at Amex and got to talk to Buffet about this where he said Buffet likes businesses where consumers think about the brand with a different part of their mind. They don't think about it with a rational think about it with the emotional part. And Amex is an emotional product. Coca Cola is an emotional product. You don't think about it and say, well, I'll just soda water costs, you know, sugar water costs twenty cents to make. I don't wanna buy this for a dollar. You know, you you just buy the soda because you watch Coca Cola. And and the more that You can make people think with that side of their their brain, the better. In health care, you kinda get this, like, very visceral,

And like I said, I'll tell you briefly about my new company in a minute. But people treat health care products and services in a different part of the mind. You know, friend of mine worked at Amex and got to talk to Buffet about this where he said Buffet likes businesses where consumers think about the brand with a different part of their mind. They don't think about it with a rational think about it with the emotional part. And Amex is an emotional product. Coca Cola is an emotional product. You don't think about it and say, well, I'll just soda water costs, you know, sugar water costs twenty cents to make. I don't wanna buy this for a dollar. You know, you you just buy the soda because you watch Coca Cola. And and the more that You can make people think with that side of their their brain, the better. In health care, you kinda get this, like, very visceral,

38:11

like, entitlement

like, entitlement

38:12

of, like, no, I meet This drug, I don't care what costs for the producer. I don't care anything. Like, this is my right to get this medicine. And, obviously, you know, that there that's not quite right in my opinion. So Getting back to to sort of just, like, I'm getting past my just annoyance that there'd be people that sort of felt like, you know, they had a right to tell you what your prices should be.

of, like, no, I meet This drug, I don't care what costs for the producer. I don't care anything. Like, this is my right to get this medicine. And, obviously, you know, that there that's not quite right in my opinion. So Getting back to to sort of just, like, I'm getting past my just annoyance that there'd be people that sort of felt like, you know, they had a right to tell you what your prices should be.

38:32

Without knowing anything about your business in the first place,

Without knowing anything about your business in the first place,

38:36

I think the biggest thing that worked, Sean, with that socratic method, is just showing people how little they know about They're in this industry. Right? Most people don't know much about the farm industry. I don't blame them for that. Right? This is the industry I spent my life in, to know that it's an it's an out of pharma, You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't be I'd be surprised if anybody did. So the first thing I tend to ask is, well, what price do you think product should be? And this is sort of where, like, it all falls apart for for the interlocutor because

I think the biggest thing that worked, Sean, with that socratic method, is just showing people how little they know about They're in this industry. Right? Most people don't know much about the farm industry. I don't blame them for that. Right? This is the industry I spent my life in, to know that it's an it's an out of pharma, You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't be I'd be surprised if anybody did. So the first thing I tend to ask is, well, what price do you think product should be? And this is sort of where, like, it all falls apart for for the interlocutor because

39:01

the average pharmaceutical

the average pharmaceutical

39:04

price would shock most people. You know, there are rare disease drugs,

price would shock most people. You know, there are rare disease drugs,

39:07

like spinraza

like spinraza

39:09

and the Evexis product for SMA, there are millions of dollars. You know, it's a million dollars for a drug. A year. You know, so every year for the rest of your life, you gotta pay a million bucks. You know, there are drugs like that. But you you don't pay this early out of pocket. Right? It's nobody's paying out of pocket for anything. You see, you don't think that's,

and the Evexis product for SMA, there are millions of dollars. You know, it's a million dollars for a drug. A year. You know, so every year for the rest of your life, you gotta pay a million bucks. You know, there are drugs like that. But you you don't pay this early out of pocket. Right? It's nobody's paying out of pocket for anything. You see, you don't think that's,

39:26

you know, the cost earned drug to the insurance company, not to the end patient. Correct. You know, we have this convoluted crazy system that generally needs to kinda be broken in half.

you know, the cost earned drug to the insurance company, not to the end patient. Correct. You know, we have this convoluted crazy system that generally needs to kinda be broken in half.

39:37

But, you know, and, again, I'll show you my product in a minute that unlike Marquupans, garbage just might actually help.

But, you know, and, again, I'll show you my product in a minute that unlike Marquupans, garbage just might actually help.

39:43

The,

The,

39:44

the,

the,

39:46

you know, the the first question I always was like, well, what what are you where do you price a drug where you have? I've been I had a drug at Recrofen.

you know, the the first question I always was like, well, what what are you where do you price a drug where you have? I've been I had a drug at Recrofen.

39:53

Sixty people.

Sixty people.

39:54

Six zero.

Six zero.

39:56

And they need in it to save their life. What what price should that be? Should it be the price of Viagra?

And they need in it to save their life. What what price should that be? Should it be the price of Viagra?

40:01

No. Yeah. Yeah. I I believe in this thing called utility theory of price. Which I probably studied in in economics a long time ago, but forgot. But this this

No. Yeah. Yeah. I I believe in this thing called utility theory of price. Which I probably studied in in economics a long time ago, but forgot. But this this

40:10

this idea is that price has three or four different theories of of price. There's theory of kind of value,

this idea is that price has three or four different theories of of price. There's theory of kind of value,

40:17

there's theory of utility,

there's theory of utility,

40:19

and there's sort of other types of theories like It should cost a lot of people sort of, like, would give me their theories and in lay terms, like, well, that should cost what you made it plus a comfortable margin.

and there's sort of other types of theories like It should cost a lot of people sort of, like, would give me their theories and in lay terms, like, well, that should cost what you made it plus a comfortable margin.

40:28

It was okay. That that sounds interesting. Other people would say, well, it should cost what is worth to the user.

It was okay. That that sounds interesting. Other people would say, well, it should cost what is worth to the user.

40:34

And and that's kinda how most medicine is priced. If you can forego

And and that's kinda how most medicine is priced. If you can forego

40:38

some terrible operation,

some terrible operation,

40:40

you know, then and that operation's really expensive. By taking this medicine, it should sort of cost the price of you foregoing

you know, then and that operation's really expensive. By taking this medicine, it should sort of cost the price of you foregoing

40:47

that operation. And it's like, but for analysis. Right? So for a lot of rare diseases, it's like, well, but for this drug, you would be spending hundreds of thousand dollars a year. It's kind of a bargain at, say, a hundred thousand dollars because otherwise the insurance is gonna spend half a million on you, you know, going to the hospital every week and so forth. If you price it on based on what it would cost, like, okay. Well, price it under break even. Well, not a lot of incentive to make a medicine like that. Right? You wanna kinda want this windfall profit. If you're a drug company because you have this risk that this shit's not gonna work. And then, you know, you'll you'll be a you'll be on, applying to a job advisor you know, after your your biotech startup fails. So if you do win, you can't just break even. You know, you have to

that operation. And it's like, but for analysis. Right? So for a lot of rare diseases, it's like, well, but for this drug, you would be spending hundreds of thousand dollars a year. It's kind of a bargain at, say, a hundred thousand dollars because otherwise the insurance is gonna spend half a million on you, you know, going to the hospital every week and so forth. If you price it on based on what it would cost, like, okay. Well, price it under break even. Well, not a lot of incentive to make a medicine like that. Right? You wanna kinda want this windfall profit. If you're a drug company because you have this risk that this shit's not gonna work. And then, you know, you'll you'll be a you'll be on, applying to a job advisor you know, after your your biotech startup fails. So if you do win, you can't just break even. You know, you have to

41:26

overcome the risks and the risk adjusted possibility that you would have failed. Otherwise, nobody would invest in companies like this. If all the benefit was, you would breakeven. So you have to have this extra return. And so if when you do the pricing, I think that the best logical thing to do is pick a price that

overcome the risks and the risk adjusted possibility that you would have failed. Otherwise, nobody would invest in companies like this. If all the benefit was, you would breakeven. So you have to have this extra return. And so if when you do the pricing, I think that the best logical thing to do is pick a price that

41:42

the alternative care, in other words, a world without this drug,

the alternative care, in other words, a world without this drug,

41:46

you would forgo all those costs for this drug. And so I think that price work. There are people who are, you know, just littered legitimately out of their mind that say, oh, the drug should be just should just be free. And of course, you know, we're we're gonna pay for the office? Who's gonna pay for lawyers? Who's gonna pay for the account? Who's gonna

you would forgo all those costs for this drug. And so I think that price work. There are people who are, you know, just littered legitimately out of their mind that say, oh, the drug should be just should just be free. And of course, you know, we're we're gonna pay for the office? Who's gonna pay for lawyers? Who's gonna pay for the account? Who's gonna

41:59

pay for the next who's gonna pay for the next drug? Right? If if every drug is free, then nobody's gonna wanna go make drugs. And again, I if this if that's the system society dictated to me, I I you know, I'll hold those rules, but the society the the the system society dictated was It's your choice what to price your product at. It's the insurer's choice to pay for it. It's the doctor's choice to prescribe it. And there are countries, like, there's this miracle drug by BERTTech, one of my favorite drug companies, for cystic fibrosis, miracle product, literally cure for cystic fibrosis. Amazing. Sister is no longer a medical problem for ninety percent of people with cystic fibrosis. This company should have parades.

pay for the next who's gonna pay for the next drug? Right? If if every drug is free, then nobody's gonna wanna go make drugs. And again, I if this if that's the system society dictated to me, I I you know, I'll hold those rules, but the society the the the system society dictated was It's your choice what to price your product at. It's the insurer's choice to pay for it. It's the doctor's choice to prescribe it. And there are countries, like, there's this miracle drug by BERTTech, one of my favorite drug companies, for cystic fibrosis, miracle product, literally cure for cystic fibrosis. Amazing. Sister is no longer a medical problem for ninety percent of people with cystic fibrosis. This company should have parades.

42:34

Perades

Perades

42:35

every year for it. Right? But instead, they get sued for it. And I have friends that have their lives have been saved. One of my friends in high school died of cystic fibrosis at nineteen.

every year for it. Right? But instead, they get sued for it. And I have friends that have their lives have been saved. One of my friends in high school died of cystic fibrosis at nineteen.

42:44

And these guys have doing I I use this term very carefully, god's work. By by saving people CF, there are countries that refuse to pay for the medicine ring. This is three hundred thousand dollars a year. And my drug ask people all the time, well, how much is my drug? Well, I say that, oh, you'd seven fifty posts. That's not what I'm asking. In pharma, we don't worry about what the price of bullets. We worry about What does it cost for somebody to have to pay for this medicine? Out out of pocket, what is the insurance paying for a full course or full year?

And these guys have doing I I use this term very carefully, god's work. By by saving people CF, there are countries that refuse to pay for the medicine ring. This is three hundred thousand dollars a year. And my drug ask people all the time, well, how much is my drug? Well, I say that, oh, you'd seven fifty posts. That's not what I'm asking. In pharma, we don't worry about what the price of bullets. We worry about What does it cost for somebody to have to pay for this medicine? Out out of pocket, what is the insurance paying for a full course or full year?

43:11

Right? And they said, well, I don't know. How many pills do you do you have to take when you take this drug that you raise the price up? And I said, well, why are you ready to criticize me when you don't know what the total cost is. You know, you're you're already jumping up. Well

Right? And they said, well, I don't know. How many pills do you do you have to take when you take this drug that you raise the price up? And I said, well, why are you ready to criticize me when you don't know what the total cost is. You know, you're you're already jumping up. Well

43:24

But you know why they're criticizing you, which is, like, as I'm listening to this this, you talk, Like, you have this very classic,

But you know why they're criticizing you, which is, like, as I'm listening to this this, you talk, Like, you have this very classic,

43:31

issue, which is both in,

issue, which is both in,

43:33

it's,

it's,

43:34

an asset analyability, which is you're quite

an asset analyability, which is you're quite

43:37

logical. So you're like, this one guy, I forget the guy's name, the the guy who's running for president. He just did what I did, and he did it times ten, but I did it early on, which is, like, you filed a very logical thing, which is hear this all the time, and we have friends like this where it's like, well, I thought it could work because of x, y, and z. And in most people's heads, they would say to themselves, But no one else is doing it, therefore, it's impossible. In your head, which is a very common thing in entrepreneurs like you, which is, no, like, if a, then b, then c, like, it's a very logical approach. But where you've have fucked up is

logical. So you're like, this one guy, I forget the guy's name, the the guy who's running for president. He just did what I did, and he did it times ten, but I did it early on, which is, like, you filed a very logical thing, which is hear this all the time, and we have friends like this where it's like, well, I thought it could work because of x, y, and z. And in most people's heads, they would say to themselves, But no one else is doing it, therefore, it's impossible. In your head, which is a very common thing in entrepreneurs like you, which is, no, like, if a, then b, then c, like, it's a very logical approach. But where you've have fucked up is

44:06

you weren't

you weren't

44:07

it's like it's like you're so smart at studying the logic that you also kinda fucked up by studying, like, Okay. But if I do that, then people will hate me. Therefore, I should probably use these words or smile this way when they confront me. And, like, that was, like, a a it's kinda like what Elon's doing. It's like, dude, you're so fucking smart, Elon. You're doing all this amazing shit. Don't call Twitter Titter. Like, think of a different troll that's a, like, that's a net positive, not on that negative. And that and that was what it seemed like was your thing, which is like, yeah, dude. You're logical. You're not wrong about this, this, and this. But you're just being a fucking idiot when you're talking about it and you're not, like, like, what don't smile that way in Congress. You know, even if you're not I respect it because I'm, like, I think you know And I'm sure you were told by people what the

it's like it's like you're so smart at studying the logic that you also kinda fucked up by studying, like, Okay. But if I do that, then people will hate me. Therefore, I should probably use these words or smile this way when they confront me. And, like, that was, like, a a it's kinda like what Elon's doing. It's like, dude, you're so fucking smart, Elon. You're doing all this amazing shit. Don't call Twitter Titter. Like, think of a different troll that's a, like, that's a net positive, not on that negative. And that and that was what it seemed like was your thing, which is like, yeah, dude. You're logical. You're not wrong about this, this, and this. But you're just being a fucking idiot when you're talking about it and you're not, like, like, what don't smile that way in Congress. You know, even if you're not I respect it because I'm, like, I think you know And I'm sure you were told by people what the

44:51

correct way to frame and spin this is. And it's not every executive's done. So so I I can be I can be just like the guy at Pfizerber, right, just like it. Right? And I can And I and I think it's cool that you're not that guy, but it's like, Well, that's the issue. You could you could have saved seven years of your life, maybe. It only got less. You just wouldn't have been a just, like, be a little bit more likable, sometimes to save your own ass. And sure. And and, you know, I I wanted to straddle that line, but, like, how much or, like, when I when I talk at Ivy League schools, I get standing ovations because I think

correct way to frame and spin this is. And it's not every executive's done. So so I I can be I can be just like the guy at Pfizerber, right, just like it. Right? And I can And I and I think it's cool that you're not that guy, but it's like, Well, that's the issue. You could you could have saved seven years of your life, maybe. It only got less. You just wouldn't have been a just, like, be a little bit more likable, sometimes to save your own ass. And sure. And and, you know, I I wanted to straddle that line, but, like, how much or, like, when I when I talk at Ivy League schools, I get standing ovations because I think

45:22

that the kids realize that their the life their personality is about to be choked out by the the big pharma, big corporate world. Right? Whether they're going to farmed or they're going to at to to finance,

that the kids realize that their the life their personality is about to be choked out by the the big pharma, big corporate world. Right? Whether they're going to farmed or they're going to at to to finance,

45:34

their life is at is older. You know, their ability to express themselves the way they see fit is done. Right? Their their ability to wear what they want to work is over. And I think that I represent that fresher breast and fresh air. They're, like, Okay. Maybe you can actually keep a personality.

their life is at is older. You know, their ability to express themselves the way they see fit is done. Right? Their their ability to wear what they want to work is over. And I think that I represent that fresher breast and fresh air. They're, like, Okay. Maybe you can actually keep a personality.

45:50

Maybe you can actually be somebody real instead of, you know, look look at the Abra CEO of corporate America. Looked up on Weisler CEO and hers bush CEO. It's like, no, I I gotta say what is the maximally

Maybe you can actually be somebody real instead of, you know, look look at the Abra CEO of corporate America. Looked up on Weisler CEO and hers bush CEO. It's like, no, I I gotta say what is the maximally

46:02

the least interesting and the least offensive

the least interesting and the least offensive

46:05

possible road to walk, and they can't have a real personality. Because if I do, you know, someone's gonna have an issue with it, and it's gonna be a problem for my business. And I I just hate that the corporate world has gotten to that point where, you know, showing who you are or or the kind of person you are or having an opinion of any kind can be held against you. I agree. And the world wants you to be vanilla. I'm on look, this is why people like our pod. I also see the other side where it's like, yeah, dude, but you just fucked up all those, like, I I don't know if this is true, but maybe it is. You just messed up all the people who wanted drug because you got locked up and or you hurt your family or you hurt people who cared about you all because of you wanting to express yourself if you wanna express yourself, get a fucking dog, go hang out with your cat, like, talk to them. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's that that's that argument. Let me ask one question. One question that's really important.

possible road to walk, and they can't have a real personality. Because if I do, you know, someone's gonna have an issue with it, and it's gonna be a problem for my business. And I I just hate that the corporate world has gotten to that point where, you know, showing who you are or or the kind of person you are or having an opinion of any kind can be held against you. I agree. And the world wants you to be vanilla. I'm on look, this is why people like our pod. I also see the other side where it's like, yeah, dude, but you just fucked up all those, like, I I don't know if this is true, but maybe it is. You just messed up all the people who wanted drug because you got locked up and or you hurt your family or you hurt people who cared about you all because of you wanting to express yourself if you wanna express yourself, get a fucking dog, go hang out with your cat, like, talk to them. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's that that's that argument. Let me ask one question. One question that's really important.

46:52

How many people could not afford or did not were not able to access the drug that previously could when the price was lower because the price got raised. Was it

How many people could not afford or did not were not able to access the drug that previously could when the price was lower because the price got raised. Was it

47:01

one percent, ten percent, fifty percent, seventy five percent of people could no longer afford the drug because that's the key. Zero percent. No. Zero percent. And so so that's the thing that, like, You know, you Not how far hoards.

one percent, ten percent, fifty percent, seventy five percent of people could no longer afford the drug because that's the key. Zero percent. No. Zero percent. And so so that's the thing that, like, You know, you Not how far hoards.

47:12

So explain that part because I think that's the key consideration.

So explain that part because I think that's the key consideration.

47:16

Is if you raise the price of the drug and these people who needed it to pay for their their illness could no longer afford it. And now they were sort of out, you know, shut out of luck because you bought the drug and and decided to reprice it. That would have been one thing. I think there's

Is if you raise the price of the drug and these people who needed it to pay for their their illness could no longer afford it. And now they were sort of out, you know, shut out of luck because you bought the drug and and decided to reprice it. That would have been one thing. I think there's

47:28

I think that would support the argument against in a way, at least the emotional argument against. But when you add the fact that nobody lost access to the drug or very small percentage. If that's true, I don't know if it's true. I don't do I don't do the research on this, but you're saying that that's true. That completely changes the argument in my opinion. I I think so too. And and that's why, like, I was so bold and and to to Sam's point, you know,

I think that would support the argument against in a way, at least the emotional argument against. But when you add the fact that nobody lost access to the drug or very small percentage. If that's true, I don't know if it's true. I don't do I don't do the research on this, but you're saying that that's true. That completely changes the argument in my opinion. I I think so too. And and that's why, like, I was so bold and and to to Sam's point, you know,

47:49

seemingly,

seemingly,

47:50

like,

like,

47:51

tone deaf, right, about this because I wanted people to see, well, it's not a stupid person. Why is he being so tone deaf and obstinate? Hopefully, it's because he's right. And and let me look into that. And some people did. You know, and that's why I've got fans,

tone deaf, right, about this because I wanted people to see, well, it's not a stupid person. Why is he being so tone deaf and obstinate? Hopefully, it's because he's right. And and let me look into that. And some people did. You know, and that's why I've got fans,

48:05

and I'm a Billy McFarland or somebody like that, you know, able to raise money and start a new business because, you know, I accomplished things and I'm a skilled guy.

and I'm a Billy McFarland or somebody like that, you know, able to raise money and start a new business because, you know, I accomplished things and I'm a skilled guy.

48:13

It's it's this, like,

It's it's this, like,

48:15

Failure to it it's it's desire to wanna buy a narrative from media or buy,

Failure to it it's it's desire to wanna buy a narrative from media or buy,

48:21

buy anger or rent anger.

buy anger or rent anger.

48:23

That that's sort of accumulated

That that's sort of accumulated

48:24

here.

here.

48:25

People when it comes to medicine, like, like I said, there are drugs far more expensive than diaphragm.

People when it comes to medicine, like, like I said, there are drugs far more expensive than diaphragm.

48:30

And,

And,

48:31

like, five hundred thousand dollars or more per year. Deapron's a one time one course. Right? So there's not an insurer in the world that didn't cover Deapron because

like, five hundred thousand dollars or more per year. Deapron's a one time one course. Right? So there's not an insurer in the world that didn't cover Deapron because

48:40

If you don't pay the fifty thousand dollars roughly with Deraprim costs for a whole course, forget per pill, about fifty grand if if you end up needing Deraprim.

If you don't pay the fifty thousand dollars roughly with Deraprim costs for a whole course, forget per pill, about fifty grand if if you end up needing Deraprim.

48:49

If you don't pay that, you're gonna pay for the guy's funeral. You're gonna pay for, actually, you visits. You're paying for, you know, you're gonna pay for a million bucks of this guy being an ICU for the next. Six months, it doesn't make sense, right, financially, to not pay for Derabrum. The other thing is it's such a small medicine. This was less than zero point one percent. Of an insurer's budget. Right? It's fucking not even not even a policy is being formed at Aetna or UnitedHealthcare

If you don't pay that, you're gonna pay for the guy's funeral. You're gonna pay for, actually, you visits. You're paying for, you know, you're gonna pay for a million bucks of this guy being an ICU for the next. Six months, it doesn't make sense, right, financially, to not pay for Derabrum. The other thing is it's such a small medicine. This was less than zero point one percent. Of an insurer's budget. Right? It's fucking not even not even a policy is being formed at Aetna or UnitedHealthcare

49:12

because it's like, They have automation policies for this stuff. Like, until the drug ends up being, like, a couple more basis points, you know, several dozen base points, it's just not gonna be A factor. Right? They're more worried about is somebody taking insulin when they could be taking metformin, which is much cheaper. Right? Make them make twenty thousand people move from insulin to metformin. You know, or fifty thousand or or five hundred thousand people. Our policy is you gotta take OTC before you get this that's prescript prescription. That's the kind of policies health care health insurers care Again, you wouldn't know that unless you're in the health care industry. Right? And the problem is when you have people that are that are shooting at you, you know, and they don't know what your industries about, you know, it it's it's akin to me telling like a database programmer, well, you know, no sequel databases are better than sequel databases. And he's like, Why? Why? Why are you saying that? Well, and you start putting out all these data? I'm like, oh, that's just that's just how I feel. Like, you know, it's better to have us, a no sequel than a sequel. That's, like, I wouldn't do that because I'm not that intellectually dishonest,

because it's like, They have automation policies for this stuff. Like, until the drug ends up being, like, a couple more basis points, you know, several dozen base points, it's just not gonna be A factor. Right? They're more worried about is somebody taking insulin when they could be taking metformin, which is much cheaper. Right? Make them make twenty thousand people move from insulin to metformin. You know, or fifty thousand or or five hundred thousand people. Our policy is you gotta take OTC before you get this that's prescript prescription. That's the kind of policies health care health insurers care Again, you wouldn't know that unless you're in the health care industry. Right? And the problem is when you have people that are that are shooting at you, you know, and they don't know what your industries about, you know, it it's it's akin to me telling like a database programmer, well, you know, no sequel databases are better than sequel databases. And he's like, Why? Why? Why are you saying that? Well, and you start putting out all these data? I'm like, oh, that's just that's just how I feel. Like, you know, it's better to have us, a no sequel than a sequel. That's, like, I wouldn't do that because I'm not that intellectually dishonest,

50:06

but people are very willing to be intellectually dishonest when it comes to things they don't know about because You know, it's a personal thing. And again, my my goal is to better understand

but people are very willing to be intellectually dishonest when it comes to things they don't know about because You know, it's a personal thing. And again, my my goal is to better understand

50:15

how personal health care is to people that it actually is this cherished

how personal health care is to people that it actually is this cherished

50:19

good and service. It's not

good and service. It's not

50:21

like food. It doesn't have the elasticity

like food. It doesn't have the elasticity

50:24

of other things. It's a very unique

of other things. It's a very unique

50:26

product that we put in a different place.

product that we put in a different place.

50:29

And, you know, my my new company is has sort of an effort to sort of understand that, make make amends, make penance in a in a way because I think that, again, health care is One of these goods that unlike most other goods, there's a

And, you know, my my new company is has sort of an effort to sort of understand that, make make amends, make penance in a in a way because I think that, again, health care is One of these goods that unlike most other goods, there's a

50:41

marginal

marginal

50:42

the marginal demand demand for marginal health care is virtually infinite. Well, amongst the three of us, nobody is willing to sacrifice marginal health care. Right? You're you and I are probably willing to sacrifice

the marginal demand demand for marginal health care is virtually infinite. Well, amongst the three of us, nobody is willing to sacrifice marginal health care. Right? You're you and I are probably willing to sacrifice

50:52

marginal you know, the clothing. Right? There's only so much money I'm gonna spend on clothing. There's only so much money I'm gonna spend on on this or that. But if you had infinite money, like, the thing you'd probably prioritize is your health. You know, your your livelihood and well-being. And I think that that makes it kind of the special bit in service, and that's why we've spent we've gone from sending five percent of our GDP. On health care to twenty percent. And I think that's gonna go to fifty percent over time because our basic goods and needs are maslowian kind of needs. Or med, you know, it can eat, we can have shelter, etcetera, etcetera. We ultimately just wanna live forever. There's no just the reason why the Silicon Valley chileaners,

marginal you know, the clothing. Right? There's only so much money I'm gonna spend on clothing. There's only so much money I'm gonna spend on on this or that. But if you had infinite money, like, the thing you'd probably prioritize is your health. You know, your your livelihood and well-being. And I think that that makes it kind of the special bit in service, and that's why we've spent we've gone from sending five percent of our GDP. On health care to twenty percent. And I think that's gonna go to fifty percent over time because our basic goods and needs are maslowian kind of needs. Or med, you know, it can eat, we can have shelter, etcetera, etcetera. We ultimately just wanna live forever. There's no just the reason why the Silicon Valley chileaners,

51:26

they want longevity, right, that you want, like, the they wanna be around forever because, you know, Larry Olsen, who I grew up kind of, you know, a little bit fanboying or worshiping, know, his his life goal is to live forever, and he's not gonna make it. But this this idea that all these guys sort of have in their minds that if they spend their billions, they'll they'll live forever, it's it's there because

they want longevity, right, that you want, like, the they wanna be around forever because, you know, Larry Olsen, who I grew up kind of, you know, a little bit fanboying or worshiping, know, his his life goal is to live forever, and he's not gonna make it. But this this idea that all these guys sort of have in their minds that if they spend their billions, they'll they'll live forever, it's it's there because

51:46

they love their wife. Right? The average person in Africa probably doesn't think about it that way. I think they they like to, but their their life's a lot harder.

they love their wife. Right? The average person in Africa probably doesn't think about it that way. I think they they like to, but their their life's a lot harder.

51:53

In America, we we're really lucky. We wanna live forever because of that. And I think that makes held, you know, one of these things where it's demand side driven. You know, we like to think that health care expenses are going up because of people like me or people like the Mylan CEO or the Pfizer CEO. They're only up because we all demand health care. We want health for everyone, our families or friends are Progyny, we all want health care, you know, to to we're gonna consume more and more of it over time to think.

In America, we we're really lucky. We wanna live forever because of that. And I think that makes held, you know, one of these things where it's demand side driven. You know, we like to think that health care expenses are going up because of people like me or people like the Mylan CEO or the Pfizer CEO. They're only up because we all demand health care. We want health for everyone, our families or friends are Progyny, we all want health care, you know, to to we're gonna consume more and more of it over time to think.

52:19

Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot?

Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot?

52:22

See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess. But HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. HubSpot,

See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess. But HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. HubSpot,

52:33

grow better.

grow better.

52:34

I I wanna ask you about your new thing, and then I wanna ask about your predictions. But first, when you got out of prison,

I I wanna ask you about your new thing, and then I wanna ask about your predictions. But first, when you got out of prison,

52:40

how much of that nut did you still have left what do you do with your money now? What are you investing in now? Or are you just doing, like, are are you even allowed to trade? And are you just doing, like, boring index funds? Are you doing more risky stuff? What are you doing? Yeah. So I got into a very interesting litigation. So I was able to pay my court my my criminal clients, very, very relatively easily. It was around eight million bucks.

how much of that nut did you still have left what do you do with your money now? What are you investing in now? Or are you just doing, like, are are you even allowed to trade? And are you just doing, like, boring index funds? Are you doing more risky stuff? What are you doing? Yeah. So I got into a very interesting litigation. So I was able to pay my court my my criminal clients, very, very relatively easily. It was around eight million bucks.

53:03

In that process, I I decided to sell the Wu tang album. Which is a funny thing because there's this NFT bubble And I basically said, oh, like, if I turned this into an NFT or sell to a crypto bro, like,

In that process, I I decided to sell the Wu tang album. Which is a funny thing because there's this NFT bubble And I basically said, oh, like, if I turned this into an NFT or sell to a crypto bro, like,

53:13

you know, I'll I might even get my money back on this thing because it was basically just, you know, a lark and I didn't think I'd,

you know, I'll I might even get my money back on this thing because it was basically just, you know, a lark and I didn't think I'd,

53:20

I I I marked it as down, like, seventy five percent, but I was able to actually turn a profit on it. So I was I was happy to time that bubble well.

I I I marked it as down, like, seventy five percent, but I was able to actually turn a profit on it. So I was I was happy to time that bubble well.

53:28

So I was able to pay my criminal fines off, but then I got into this litigation with the FTC.

So I was able to pay my criminal fines off, but then I got into this litigation with the FTC.

53:34

The Federal Trade Commission actually personally sued me. For Monopoly, I'm the first person in American history,

The Federal Trade Commission actually personally sued me. For Monopoly, I'm the first person in American history,

53:41

the Sherman Act, which is a hundred and twenty five years old. The first person to personally be sued, of the Federal Free Commission, which is very odd because John d rockefeller,

the Sherman Act, which is a hundred and twenty five years old. The first person to personally be sued, of the Federal Free Commission, which is very odd because John d rockefeller,

53:50

Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, couple of people who are accused of the monopolies,

Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, couple of people who are accused of the monopolies,

53:54

their firms got sued. Was actually the first person to personally be sued as a monopolist,

their firms got sued. Was actually the first person to personally be sued as a monopolist,

54:00

which is very odd,

which is very odd,

54:01

and they won. So I'm appealing that, but they won a sixty million dollar hit against So until I figure that out, I'm sort of not not in the market.

and they won. So I'm appealing that, but they won a sixty million dollar hit against So until I figure that out, I'm sort of not not in the market.

54:10

It's very, like,

It's very, like,

54:12

bizarre

bizarre

54:13

rolling that I think will get overturned.

rolling that I think will get overturned.

54:15

Again, it shows you that kinda like animus, like this judge that made their ruling just Well, and will will that make you broke?

Again, it shows you that kinda like animus, like this judge that made their ruling just Well, and will will that make you broke?

54:21

If if I had to pay the sixty, I think I I could pay the sixty, But it's it's just like a colossal fuck, you know, just a colossal, like,

If if I had to pay the sixty, I think I I could pay the sixty, But it's it's just like a colossal fuck, you know, just a colossal, like,

54:30

you know,

you know,

54:31

hitting the gears of, like, stopping, like, the production, basically.

hitting the gears of, like, stopping, like, the production, basically.

54:35

So,

So,

54:36

the company I also am indemnified. So the company will probably have to pay it, but it's it's just a big, like, cluster fuck at the moment. So you know, I'm I'm sort of focused. Again, the nice thing about being an entrepreneur

the company I also am indemnified. So the company will probably have to pay it, but it's it's just a big, like, cluster fuck at the moment. So you know, I'm I'm sort of focused. Again, the nice thing about being an entrepreneur

54:48

and and having faith in your talent and things like that is that Even if you wipe me out and start at zero, I wouldn't have a problem. I think, you know, getting making several hundred million dollars. I I I think that any business I start

and and having faith in your talent and things like that is that Even if you wipe me out and start at zero, I wouldn't have a problem. I think, you know, getting making several hundred million dollars. I I I think that any business I start

55:00

you know, it may not be this one or the next one, but eventually with perseverance, I'll I'll have some great success. And I think that there's not, you know, a bone in my body that doesn't believe that. And I think when you can find great assets or rate people and put capital together with that, that, you know, magic starts to happen, and and it's a infectious and contagious and know, as long as you have your sort of mooring straight, you should be able to do it. And I think that we we've already started that process. So whether this litigation turns out that they'll have to pay you know, six some amount of that's been paid by the company. And if I don't have a indemnification, something that'd be a maybe I'll have to pay thirty or forty million bucks. And it would suck. Sure. You know, I'd have to sell

you know, it may not be this one or the next one, but eventually with perseverance, I'll I'll have some great success. And I think that there's not, you know, a bone in my body that doesn't believe that. And I think when you can find great assets or rate people and put capital together with that, that, you know, magic starts to happen, and and it's a infectious and contagious and know, as long as you have your sort of mooring straight, you should be able to do it. And I think that we we've already started that process. So whether this litigation turns out that they'll have to pay you know, six some amount of that's been paid by the company. And if I don't have a indemnification, something that'd be a maybe I'll have to pay thirty or forty million bucks. And it would suck. Sure. You know, I'd have to sell

55:36

my farm assets, I'd have to, you know, make room. Would I come be able to cover it or not? I'm not even a hundred percent sure. But, you know, it all depends on the sale price.

my farm assets, I'd have to, you know, make room. Would I come be able to cover it or not? I'm not even a hundred percent sure. But, you know, it all depends on the sale price.

55:44

But, you know, even even if you'd sort of took everything for me, you know, and and added another hundred million, I'd I'd sort of be, you know, you know, cheer you about it and say, alright. It's a big challenge, but I'll do it. You know? And I think that, you know, I don't I don't view

But, you know, even even if you'd sort of took everything for me, you know, and and added another hundred million, I'd I'd sort of be, you know, you know, cheer you about it and say, alright. It's a big challenge, but I'll do it. You know? And I think that, you know, I don't I don't view

55:56

sort of wealth and and and success as as symmetrical or the same thing, I sort of set say that, you know,

sort of wealth and and and success as as symmetrical or the same thing, I sort of set say that, you know,

56:04

you know, it's sort of almost like you know, a challenge to sort of, like, do it the other way. I know a lot of people, like, they make money to be comfortable. Like, I almost feel like I make money to be uncomfortable. Okay. I want I want the the bigger challenges, the harder things to do. Like, you look at Elon Musk, and you got you you gotta ask yourself, like, why is this guy making his life? So much harder. New businesses.

you know, it's sort of almost like you know, a challenge to sort of, like, do it the other way. I know a lot of people, like, they make money to be comfortable. Like, I almost feel like I make money to be uncomfortable. Okay. I want I want the the bigger challenges, the harder things to do. Like, you look at Elon Musk, and you got you you gotta ask yourself, like, why is this guy making his life? So much harder. New businesses.

56:25

No ideas. Like, what is going on in his head that he wants more pain? Cause it's very painful.

No ideas. Like, what is going on in his head that he wants more pain? Cause it's very painful.

56:30

To deal with all the headaches of these companies. Oh, half your advertisers just left it Twitter. Oh, by the way, you still have to pay the interest almost once. Like, gosh, you should be sitting there, like, oh, my god. You know, this is so much pain. Like, why add this on top of my Tesla issues? Because, you know, there's a hundred issues to that company, you know, there's a hundred issues in SpaceX. And you got businesses going great at those companies, but they're still intense issues that you have to deal with every day. And you've got all their lawsuits, and you've got other things going on in your personal life. You have eight kids. I mean,

To deal with all the headaches of these companies. Oh, half your advertisers just left it Twitter. Oh, by the way, you still have to pay the interest almost once. Like, gosh, you should be sitting there, like, oh, my god. You know, this is so much pain. Like, why add this on top of my Tesla issues? Because, you know, there's a hundred issues to that company, you know, there's a hundred issues in SpaceX. And you got businesses going great at those companies, but they're still intense issues that you have to deal with every day. And you've got all their lawsuits, and you've got other things going on in your personal life. You have eight kids. I mean,

56:58

why add more shit to your to your to your thing. And and I think the answer for me is, like, I love it. You know, I I I love the game, and you know, whether or not, you know, my bank's account's got this many zeros, that many zeros. I you know, it's it's not like you're gonna be spending it. You know, it's it's it's just work. You know, I I I sit in a room with my my team and I I work all day, and that's it. So for me, it's it's like Do I don't know if you fall in Naval, but he has this great quote he has this, like, Twitter thread called, how to get rich without getting lucky. And he says something in there that I love, which he goes.

why add more shit to your to your to your thing. And and I think the answer for me is, like, I love it. You know, I I I love the game, and you know, whether or not, you know, my bank's account's got this many zeros, that many zeros. I you know, it's it's not like you're gonna be spending it. You know, it's it's it's just work. You know, I I I sit in a room with my my team and I I work all day, and that's it. So for me, it's it's like Do I don't know if you fall in Naval, but he has this great quote he has this, like, Twitter thread called, how to get rich without getting lucky. And he says something in there that I love, which he goes.

57:29

I don't wanna just get rich. I wanna be a person who gets rich, meaning

I don't wanna just get rich. I wanna be a person who gets rich, meaning

57:33

if you could drop if if you took everything away from me and you dropped me, you know, sort of like, butt naked in a third world country, in ten years, I wanna be wealthy again. And I think I have this I have built the skills in order to do that. And so that sort of reminds me of what you're talking about, which is, like, look, You might lose everything that you made in the last decade or

if you could drop if if you took everything away from me and you dropped me, you know, sort of like, butt naked in a third world country, in ten years, I wanna be wealthy again. And I think I have this I have built the skills in order to do that. And so that sort of reminds me of what you're talking about, which is, like, look, You might lose everything that you made in the last decade or

57:52

have have, have this sort of, like, reset,

have have, have this sort of, like, reset,

57:55

but

but

57:57

give you ten years, you'll build back up. And, I think most great entrepreneurs

give you ten years, you'll build back up. And, I think most great entrepreneurs

58:01

are are built that way and wired that way, and almost in a sick way kinda relish that that opportunity. When when that misfortune strike, there is some fortune in that misfortune,

are are built that way and wired that way, and almost in a sick way kinda relish that that opportunity. When when that misfortune strike, there is some fortune in that misfortune,

58:11

when when when a situation

when when when a situation

58:13

Yeah. It's it's sort of fun. I mean, in some ways, like, I think a lot of people, you know, like a comeback story too. You, you talked about the, like, you know, you didn't wanna be the Pfizer CEO. You didn't want you you kinda knew what you needed. You could have said, and you decided, like, f that, like, I don't wanna

Yeah. It's it's sort of fun. I mean, in some ways, like, I think a lot of people, you know, like a comeback story too. You, you talked about the, like, you know, you didn't wanna be the Pfizer CEO. You didn't want you you kinda knew what you needed. You could have said, and you decided, like, f that, like, I don't wanna

58:29

I don't wanna do business. I put pretty words in your mouth a little bit, but it's sort of like, I don't wanna be a CEO, that type of CEO, and I don't wanna the game of entrepreneurship, but I don't like the world when it's less interesting when people don't actually say what's on their mind or, can speak like a normal human being versus being like this, like, very tightly wound you know, corporate, you know,

I don't wanna do business. I put pretty words in your mouth a little bit, but it's sort of like, I don't wanna be a CEO, that type of CEO, and I don't wanna the game of entrepreneurship, but I don't like the world when it's less interesting when people don't actually say what's on their mind or, can speak like a normal human being versus being like this, like, very tightly wound you know, corporate, you know,

58:46

duck. And so I don't know if you've seen this, but have you seen have you guys seen this movement that happened at Stanford, the fun strikes back movement?

duck. And so I don't know if you've seen this, but have you seen have you guys seen this movement that happened at Stanford, the fun strikes back movement?

58:54

Sam, have you heard about this? Yeah. No. What does that mean? It's awesome. There's basically so there was, like, the student body election, I guess, And, I don't know the full story because I just read about this. I was reading about this this morning. I was supposed to be prepping for this, but the story fast ended me instead.

Sam, have you heard about this? Yeah. No. What does that mean? It's awesome. There's basically so there was, like, the student body election, I guess, And, I don't know the full story because I just read about this. I was reading about this this morning. I was supposed to be prepping for this, but the story fast ended me instead.

59:08

And,

And,

59:09

Basically, there was a group of people that are at Stanford group of students that were running at Stanford, and they won the election

Basically, there was a group of people that are at Stanford group of students that were running at Stanford, and they won the election

59:15

on this movement that they're calling fun strikes back. And they're basically, like, dude, The, you know, campus in the university has just drained us of our personality.

on this movement that they're calling fun strikes back. And they're basically, like, dude, The, you know, campus in the university has just drained us of our personality.

59:24

It is trying to shut down all the fun things that they're like, we are pro athletic.

It is trying to shut down all the fun things that they're like, we are pro athletic.

59:28

We're pro fraternities.

We're pro fraternities.

59:29

We are pro partying, and we are pro weirdness.

We are pro partying, and we are pro weirdness.

59:32

And they basically talk about, like, the the the story. They do a great job telling the story. They're like, you know, back in nineteen eighty one,

And they basically talk about, like, the the the story. They do a great job telling the story. They're like, you know, back in nineteen eighty one,

59:40

this, you know, there's this frat party where that they threw every year where there was sand all over the house, like a beach party or whatever. And at the end of the night, like, the the party was over. People left, but the sand was still there. They're like, shit. What are we gonna do with all this sand? We still have so much in saying they're like, What if we built an island with the sand? And they're like, there's this little lake. What if we took all the sand to the middle of the lake? We made an island. And that could be our island. And they, like, rallied at four or five in the morning. And they go there. And then the groundskeeper's like, guys, you can't bring a bulldozer here, like, an excavator to, like, dump this here. And they're like, sir, we wanna do this for this reason. This is our moment. This is our legacy. Like, think about this years from now. People will wonder how the hell this island was built in tonight is that night. And the guy's like, alright. Go ahead. And he, like, let's him in. They build the island, and it's this epic party or whatever. It's the epic finish.

this, you know, there's this frat party where that they threw every year where there was sand all over the house, like a beach party or whatever. And at the end of the night, like, the the party was over. People left, but the sand was still there. They're like, shit. What are we gonna do with all this sand? We still have so much in saying they're like, What if we built an island with the sand? And they're like, there's this little lake. What if we took all the sand to the middle of the lake? We made an island. And that could be our island. And they, like, rallied at four or five in the morning. And they go there. And then the groundskeeper's like, guys, you can't bring a bulldozer here, like, an excavator to, like, dump this here. And they're like, sir, we wanna do this for this reason. This is our moment. This is our legacy. Like, think about this years from now. People will wonder how the hell this island was built in tonight is that night. And the guy's like, alright. Go ahead. And he, like, let's him in. They build the island, and it's this epic party or whatever. It's the epic finish.

01:00:26

And then, like, fast forward to today, like,

And then, like, fast forward to today, like,

01:00:30

the island

the island

01:00:30

got the island is gone. The lake is gone. They shut everything down. Nobody can visit that that little pond or that lake anymore because there was, like, an angered salamander there. So they're like, no. No. No. Shut it down guys. And then, like, one by one, they've kicked off all the fraternities from from the from the campus for, like, whatever

got the island is gone. The lake is gone. They shut everything down. Nobody can visit that that little pond or that lake anymore because there was, like, an angered salamander there. So they're like, no. No. No. Shut it down guys. And then, like, one by one, they've kicked off all the fraternities from from the from the campus for, like, whatever

01:00:47

violation hit a violation. They removed them from campus. They, like, scraped all the, like, each each neighborhood used to have its own name and its own, like, weird weirdness. They, like, scraped it all off, and now it's just, like, numbered sells. It's like, you are on the d block six five seven. And So it's triple.

violation hit a violation. They removed them from campus. They, like, scraped all the, like, each each neighborhood used to have its own name and its own, like, weird weirdness. They, like, scraped it all off, and now it's just, like, numbered sells. It's like, you are on the d block six five seven. And So it's triple.

01:01:03

Yeah. You're like,

Yeah. You're like,

01:01:04

we used to have, like, the biggest party of the year was this anything but clothes party, and they decided that that's too risky, and it's not fair to everybody. And they're like I I always wondered on, like, Who are the pro like, what did my prosecutors

we used to have, like, the biggest party of the year was this anything but clothes party, and they decided that that's too risky, and it's not fair to everybody. And they're like I I always wondered on, like, Who are the pro like, what did my prosecutors

01:01:16

and, like, judges and, like, regulators and, like, regulators and people like Elizabeth Warren? What did they do in college? This is what they did in They they shut down the party and they're like, no. This is offensive. We gotta shut this party down. Right. You know, it's it's just, like, who are these people? And why why do we ever let any of them have any power? And it's it's frustrating.

and, like, judges and, like, regulators and, like, regulators and people like Elizabeth Warren? What did they do in college? This is what they did in They they shut down the party and they're like, no. This is offensive. We gotta shut this party down. Right. You know, it's it's just, like, who are these people? And why why do we ever let any of them have any power? And it's it's frustrating.

01:01:31

To me that, like, you know, schools, like, Sanford and many others have had to, like, go through this, like, identity crisis of, like, I'm scared to say what I want because you know, what if somebody's gonna be offended? And it it becomes this meta game where, like, we were talking about, like, yeah, could I, like, do the party line and say, you know, I'm really sorry my actions have caused, you know,

To me that, like, you know, schools, like, Sanford and many others have had to, like, go through this, like, identity crisis of, like, I'm scared to say what I want because you know, what if somebody's gonna be offended? And it it becomes this meta game where, like, we were talking about, like, yeah, could I, like, do the party line and say, you know, I'm really sorry my actions have caused, you know,

01:01:50

some misunderstanding and blah blah blah and have this non apology apology. But then in, like, Japan,

some misunderstanding and blah blah blah and have this non apology apology. But then in, like, Japan,

01:01:54

the way you say no can be found to be insulting. So you just moved with Meta like, the next -- Right. -- you know, level where it's like, oh, he just saw the way he said no. He didn't really mean it. You know, where the way he said, I'm sorry. He wasn't really apologetic. There's a real way to say I'm sorry. You gotta bow a little bit deeper. And it's like, okay. Well, so it's it's it's an insane meta where you're constantly just, like, getting to the next point of of, like, inhibiting your personality and and what are you really saying? And just come on say it, you know, and I think that that's a really freeing, you know, thing to do.

the way you say no can be found to be insulting. So you just moved with Meta like, the next -- Right. -- you know, level where it's like, oh, he just saw the way he said no. He didn't really mean it. You know, where the way he said, I'm sorry. He wasn't really apologetic. There's a real way to say I'm sorry. You gotta bow a little bit deeper. And it's like, okay. Well, so it's it's it's an insane meta where you're constantly just, like, getting to the next point of of, like, inhibiting your personality and and what are you really saying? And just come on say it, you know, and I think that that's a really freeing, you know, thing to do.

01:02:26

Yeah. I don't know if it's on sub stack, but I'm on your newsletter, and, like, you made some wild predictions. I don't remember all the predictions, but, like, you may you you actually had a really good post where you said, like, This is gonna happen, I think, in two thousand twenty three. This will happen in two thousand thirty. I think in fifty years, this will happen. And, I I it would be actually be fun to look back at some of your predictions so far, turning out to be true, but it's very interesting. And you're you're pretty good at writing, actually. You're you're quite good, actually. Thanks a lot. You know, it's it's hard to write,

Yeah. I don't know if it's on sub stack, but I'm on your newsletter, and, like, you made some wild predictions. I don't remember all the predictions, but, like, you may you you actually had a really good post where you said, like, This is gonna happen, I think, in two thousand twenty three. This will happen in two thousand thirty. I think in fifty years, this will happen. And, I I it would be actually be fun to look back at some of your predictions so far, turning out to be true, but it's very interesting. And you're you're pretty good at writing, actually. You're you're quite good, actually. Thanks a lot. You know, it's it's hard to write,

01:02:54

you know,

you know,

01:02:56

professionally.

professionally.

01:02:57

Like, you guys, I know Sam,

Like, you guys, I know Sam,

01:02:59

well, I I know Sean does for sure.

well, I I know Sean does for sure.

01:03:02

It when you're an entrepreneur

It when you're an entrepreneur

01:03:04

doing anything other than working on your business seems like a waste of time and and like a a really,

doing anything other than working on your business seems like a waste of time and and like a a really,

01:03:09

painful thing to do,

painful thing to do,

01:03:11

because you have to provide for your investors, your coworkers, your old family,

because you have to provide for your investors, your coworkers, your old family,

01:03:16

the business you love, you know, it's it's,

the business you love, you know, it's it's,

01:03:19

it's hard to to do a lot of writing. And prison was a lot easier. You know, it was it was,

it's hard to to do a lot of writing. And prison was a lot easier. You know, it was it was,

01:03:24

you know, I had more time to sing. But even then, I was I was actually really busy. People asked me if I was, you know,

you know, I had more time to sing. But even then, I was I was actually really busy. People asked me if I was, you know,

01:03:31

you know, bored in prison, and, like, it was the from it. A lot of people ask me why didn't you get jacked up, you know, in in in prison? I just didn't have the time. You know?

you know, bored in prison, and, like, it was the from it. A lot of people ask me why didn't you get jacked up, you know, in in in prison? I just didn't have the time. You know?

01:03:38

I was I was working the whole time. So You know, it's it's always hard to write. I love writing, but but to to do anything. A lot of people ask me if I don't why don't I wanna do a podcast, and It's the same reason. And, you know, the predictions about AI are are, you know, some of them echo kind of like other people's predictions, you know, in a lot of ways. We have large language models now. They're really interesting.

I was I was working the whole time. So You know, it's it's always hard to write. I love writing, but but to to do anything. A lot of people ask me if I don't why don't I wanna do a podcast, and It's the same reason. And, you know, the predictions about AI are are, you know, some of them echo kind of like other people's predictions, you know, in a lot of ways. We have large language models now. They're really interesting.

01:03:59

They certainly

They certainly

01:04:00

provide for more eye opening potential predictions, you know, probably some of the craziest ones I've I've made including include things like though they'll be kind of interspecies

provide for more eye opening potential predictions, you know, probably some of the craziest ones I've I've made including include things like though they'll be kind of interspecies

01:04:10

marriage between AI and humans. There'll be AI, fundamental rights for for voting and things like that. That'll kinda reshape society. So they're they're pretty wild predictions, but I do think they'll happen years from now, and I do think we're starting to see some of those things pull in and get accelerated.

marriage between AI and humans. There'll be AI, fundamental rights for for voting and things like that. That'll kinda reshape society. So they're they're pretty wild predictions, but I do think they'll happen years from now, and I do think we're starting to see some of those things pull in and get accelerated.

01:04:26

One of my favorite people, John Claremack,

One of my favorite people, John Claremack,

01:04:29

recently upgraded

recently upgraded

01:04:30

his

his

01:04:32

estimate of AGI, so called artificial general intelligence,

estimate of AGI, so called artificial general intelligence,

01:04:36

from fifty percent by twenty thirty to sixty percent. You know, John is like this very precise, you know, calculating nerd who's, you know, get you know, created the first person shooter. He, you know, is brilliant guy, and he's working on his own company, which nobody's talking about, called Keene Technologies.

from fifty percent by twenty thirty to sixty percent. You know, John is like this very precise, you know, calculating nerd who's, you know, get you know, created the first person shooter. He, you know, is brilliant guy, and he's working on his own company, which nobody's talking about, called Keene Technologies.

01:04:53

I think he's the only employee. I'm not mistaken. So he's just sitting there, like, trying to create, like,

I think he's the only employee. I'm not mistaken. So he's just sitting there, like, trying to create, like,

01:04:59

this this brain,

this this brain,

01:05:01

and, you know, who knows? I think he's a good dark horse for this race. But now AGI is, like, how it is super captivating to everyone. Right? Like, it's it's to me,

and, you know, who knows? I think he's a good dark horse for this race. But now AGI is, like, how it is super captivating to everyone. Right? Like, it's it's to me,

01:05:08

if you look at the history of humanity,

if you look at the history of humanity,

01:05:10

next to maybe relativity

next to maybe relativity

01:05:12

or, you know, a couple of other, like, magnetism electricity, like, this is, like, probably more important. And it's the first time humans will have created

or, you know, a couple of other, like, magnetism electricity, like, this is, like, probably more important. And it's the first time humans will have created

01:05:20

a mind

a mind

01:05:21

from from nothing that's stronger than a human. And it's really, like, just so profound

from from nothing that's stronger than a human. And it's really, like, just so profound

01:05:26

that, you know, I don't think anybody can afford to to ignore it. It's more profound than the internet.

that, you know, I don't think anybody can afford to to ignore it. It's more profound than the internet.

01:05:31

You know, it's it's really, you know, something wild. Now we don't know when we'll get it, we'll get a partial version of it, or we're already seeing a partial version of it. You know, it's it's sort of early days, but I was in prison, I was able to think sort of zoom out and think about that a little bit more than maybe the average person, and it's funny if you look at sort of open AI and some of the other startups that are coming out,

You know, it's it's really, you know, something wild. Now we don't know when we'll get it, we'll get a partial version of it, or we're already seeing a partial version of it. You know, it's it's sort of early days, but I was in prison, I was able to think sort of zoom out and think about that a little bit more than maybe the average person, and it's funny if you look at sort of open AI and some of the other startups that are coming out,

01:05:51

these these sort of companies like Google and Facebook, you you see that they kind of did that zooming out many years ago. And the companies that are sort of missing this and messing it up are kind of like too close to the

these these sort of companies like Google and Facebook, you you see that they kind of did that zooming out many years ago. And the companies that are sort of missing this and messing it up are kind of like too close to the

01:06:02

to to sort of reality and and the day to day product management to even see it and really understand it that people wanted this. You know, Microsoft

to to sort of reality and and the day to day product management to even see it and really understand it that people wanted this. You know, Microsoft

01:06:09

Both both Facebook and Google had a quid sort of equivalent technology to open AI in my opinion years ago. And they just still just haven't sort of seen the the actual product, you know, making sense and and launching.

Both both Facebook and Google had a quid sort of equivalent technology to open AI in my opinion years ago. And they just still just haven't sort of seen the the actual product, you know, making sense and and launching.

01:06:23

And, anyway, you know, it's it's a really interesting time, obviously.

And, anyway, you know, it's it's a really interesting time, obviously.

01:06:28

What's your, what's the new thing?

What's your, what's the new thing?

01:06:30

So I'm releasing in the next,

So I'm releasing in the next,

01:06:32

day or two, maybe even today. An AI decision. This this will go live tomorrow. This will go live tomorrow. So it might be up. So what what what is their URL? So you're you're breaking the news.

day or two, maybe even today. An AI decision. This this will go live tomorrow. This will go live tomorrow. So it might be up. So what what what is their URL? So you're you're breaking the news.

01:06:44

And it's so funny in happenstance because we're talking to, like, Techron should, like, all these places. We never we didn't really find, like, the perfect reporter who could report on this. So here we go.

And it's so funny in happenstance because we're talking to, like, Techron should, like, all these places. We never we didn't really find, like, the perfect reporter who could report on this. So here we go.

01:06:53

It's called doctor Gupta dot ai.

It's called doctor Gupta dot ai.

01:06:56

It's a the first of its kind AI physician.

It's a the first of its kind AI physician.

01:07:00

It's basically going to be,

It's basically going to be,

01:07:02

what I hope something that could

what I hope something that could

01:07:05

drastically reduce health care costs and drastically prove health care

drastically reduce health care costs and drastically prove health care

01:07:08

quality

quality

01:07:10

by providing an AI physician mimic, basically,

by providing an AI physician mimic, basically,

01:07:13

sort of a synthetic AI doctor that that will can give you medical information. And I think that you know, most Is there a physician? Doctor or what?

sort of a synthetic AI doctor that that will can give you medical information. And I think that you know, most Is there a physician? Doctor or what?

01:07:22

Doctor, Gupta, like,

Doctor, Gupta, like,

01:07:24

g u p t a, dot a I. Well, the site's not up again. Oh, dot a r. He happens to be Indian, but it's also GPTs of Gupta.

g u p t a, dot a I. Well, the site's not up again. Oh, dot a r. He happens to be Indian, but it's also GPTs of Gupta.

01:07:33

So anyway, doctor Gupta will give you medical information. And, you can talk to them. It's free.

So anyway, doctor Gupta will give you medical information. And, you can talk to them. It's free.

01:07:39

It's, to me,

It's, to me,

01:07:41

what a lot of people didn't understand about my price increase and stuff like that, One of the other reasons I was confident there are like fifty of them is that ninety percent of health care costs come from physicians.

what a lot of people didn't understand about my price increase and stuff like that, One of the other reasons I was confident there are like fifty of them is that ninety percent of health care costs come from physicians.

01:07:51

Ten percent come from Fargo. What what do you mean come from? What does that mean?

Ten percent come from Fargo. What what do you mean come from? What does that mean?

01:07:56

We spend four trillion dollars on health care in this country. Most of that money goes to physicians and health care workers.

We spend four trillion dollars on health care in this country. Most of that money goes to physicians and health care workers.

01:08:02

And

And

01:08:03

a lot of that I love doctors, I love nurses, And I'm anything against them. A lot of those

a lot of that I love doctors, I love nurses, And I'm anything against them. A lot of those

01:08:10

decisions

decisions

01:08:10

can be done by machines. A lot of those decisions, thanks to Open AI, and and deep learning and LM models can be done by AI. So can we take that four trillion and make it two trillion? That would be a big deal. You know, the whatever Cuban's doing, it's not gonna save anybody any money, and it's not gonna make mark any money either. But this could actually change the curve on health care. Give us a thirty seconds on give us a thirty seconds on why Cubid's thing. You you you've referenced a couple times how it might be dumb or or or not that It's such a shit show. Like, So so he's basically running a pharmacy.

can be done by machines. A lot of those decisions, thanks to Open AI, and and deep learning and LM models can be done by AI. So can we take that four trillion and make it two trillion? That would be a big deal. You know, the whatever Cuban's doing, it's not gonna save anybody any money, and it's not gonna make mark any money either. But this could actually change the curve on health care. Give us a thirty seconds on give us a thirty seconds on why Cubid's thing. You you you've referenced a couple times how it might be dumb or or or not that It's such a shit show. Like, So so he's basically running a pharmacy.

01:08:43

Right? So he's trying to source drugs for cheaper that mind you, every other pharmacy is pretty good at sourcing medicine.

Right? So he's trying to source drugs for cheaper that mind you, every other pharmacy is pretty good at sourcing medicine.

01:08:51

And I don't know how he's gonna get a deal on, you know, say Teva or Son's generics,

And I don't know how he's gonna get a deal on, you know, say Teva or Son's generics,

01:08:57

And he better than than CVS or Walgreens, it seemed kinda hard to do that. Right? He's they they he doesn't have the volume they have. Get that deal, And then somehow, I'll get a margin. Pharmacy margins are razor, razor freaking thin. Right? You cannot

And he better than than CVS or Walgreens, it seemed kinda hard to do that. Right? He's they they he doesn't have the volume they have. Get that deal, And then somehow, I'll get a margin. Pharmacy margins are razor, razor freaking thin. Right? You cannot

01:09:10

take a three dollar draw and charge a hundred bucks for a pharmacy. They're razor. Just look at the ten q for Walgreens and CVS. Like, well, I'm making a fortune here. And so he's gonna somehow get a margin out of that. There there's just it's just hocus pocus. There's no actual way to do that. You know, it's it's a bunch of lies, basically. He's being dishonest.

take a three dollar draw and charge a hundred bucks for a pharmacy. They're razor. Just look at the ten q for Walgreens and CVS. Like, well, I'm making a fortune here. And so he's gonna somehow get a margin out of that. There there's just it's just hocus pocus. There's no actual way to do that. You know, it's it's a bunch of lies, basically. He's being dishonest.

01:09:28

So I'm on doctor, doctor, Gupta, AI.

So I'm on doctor, doctor, Gupta, AI.

01:09:32

So I see the thing. So I I I tell it my age, how tall I am, my weight, some of my vitals. If I have lab results, I entered in. And then what's gonna happen next? It's gonna say, like, you should check out you should work on this, this, and this. No. You don't actually even have to enter any of your vitals. You could just have a conversation. And we've programmed it using these, like, very,

So I see the thing. So I I I tell it my age, how tall I am, my weight, some of my vitals. If I have lab results, I entered in. And then what's gonna happen next? It's gonna say, like, you should check out you should work on this, this, and this. No. You don't actually even have to enter any of your vitals. You could just have a conversation. And we've programmed it using these, like, very,

01:09:50

you know, intricate techniques. I was actually you know, a lot of people are talking about auto GPT and and baby GPT. And I talked to Yohi, and I talked to all of the people in Bend of that stuff.

you know, intricate techniques. I was actually you know, a lot of people are talking about auto GPT and and baby GPT. And I talked to Yohi, and I talked to all of the people in Bend of that stuff.

01:10:01

You never know what people are doing privately, but we started doing the auto reflective GPT stuff six months ago. And we were able to discover

You never know what people are doing privately, but we started doing the auto reflective GPT stuff six months ago. And we were able to discover

01:10:08

depending on the technique you use, you can get better chat results than chat GPT.

depending on the technique you use, you can get better chat results than chat GPT.

01:10:14

And I don't think open AI disputes this. We've screened thousands of messages that we've tried with the system, and we get better better performance.

And I don't think open AI disputes this. We've screened thousands of messages that we've tried with the system, and we get better better performance.

01:10:22

And chatty BT by making it kinda like auto reflect, and do other kind of methods that, again, or our secret sauce, that get the chat bot to succeed. So it's not so much about that medical view. It's you can get

And chatty BT by making it kinda like auto reflect, and do other kind of methods that, again, or our secret sauce, that get the chat bot to succeed. So it's not so much about that medical view. It's you can get

01:10:33

physician quality advice

physician quality advice

01:10:36

for free at any time any hour. So you and I may be able to call a doctor friend, but most people cannot just decide at midnight that if they have medical question that they can get an answer. You have to go on Google. You gotta go ask WebMD, and you're you don't know what you're reading half the time. If if you're the average joe, know, you're not trained in medicine. If you say, well, what about my chest pain? What should I do? You wanna talk to somebody. You wanna actually have a conversation. LMs do that amazingly. This is a is a is an attraction of GPT four. They'll actually let you have a natural dialogue with something that, as you guys know, GPT four scores ninety percent on the USMLE.

for free at any time any hour. So you and I may be able to call a doctor friend, but most people cannot just decide at midnight that if they have medical question that they can get an answer. You have to go on Google. You gotta go ask WebMD, and you're you don't know what you're reading half the time. If if you're the average joe, know, you're not trained in medicine. If you say, well, what about my chest pain? What should I do? You wanna talk to somebody. You wanna actually have a conversation. LMs do that amazingly. This is a is a is an attraction of GPT four. They'll actually let you have a natural dialogue with something that, as you guys know, GPT four scores ninety percent on the USMLE.

01:11:11

It's a ninety percent performing. Most doctors don't score ninety percent on the boards. GPT is at ACE

It's a ninety percent performing. Most doctors don't score ninety percent on the boards. GPT is at ACE

01:11:17

doctor, when it comes to medical knowledge. So being able to ask an ace doctor at any time for free about medical information, medical advice, You know, it's a pretty profound product they think because again, we spend trillions of dollars on physicians.

doctor, when it comes to medical knowledge. So being able to ask an ace doctor at any time for free about medical information, medical advice, You know, it's a pretty profound product they think because again, we spend trillions of dollars on physicians.

01:11:29

A lot of the physicians work to be done by AI, and that's an uncomfortable truth

A lot of the physicians work to be done by AI, and that's an uncomfortable truth

01:11:34

that, you know, again, it doesn't mean that we don't need doctors ever again. In my world, in my vision, fifty years from now, there's no such thing as a medical doctor. There's no such thing as a physician. Oh, that's my future. I'm on-site.

that, you know, again, it doesn't mean that we don't need doctors ever again. In my world, in my vision, fifty years from now, there's no such thing as a medical doctor. There's no such thing as a physician. Oh, that's my future. I'm on-site.

01:11:46

I can I can get fifty messages for free or I pay twenty bucks a month? What what's the end game here? Do you think gonna be a massive company, or is this, like, a thing where you're, like, I don't know what's gonna happen. Let's let's figure it out. Or are you you're trying to get after? What are you trying to do in the next five or ten years with this business? Yeah. I'm trying to make it a massive company.

I can I can get fifty messages for free or I pay twenty bucks a month? What what's the end game here? Do you think gonna be a massive company, or is this, like, a thing where you're, like, I don't know what's gonna happen. Let's let's figure it out. Or are you you're trying to get after? What are you trying to do in the next five or ten years with this business? Yeah. I'm trying to make it a massive company.

01:12:03

I think that, you know,

I think that, you know,

01:12:05

I you know, it will be a massive company. You'd you never say never in business, but you know, we're we're certainly gonna try our hardest because I do think that you can audit this is why technology has never really bent the curve for health care. The cost of sending a megabyte, the cost of sending,

I you know, it will be a massive company. You'd you never say never in business, but you know, we're we're certainly gonna try our hardest because I do think that you can audit this is why technology has never really bent the curve for health care. The cost of sending a megabyte, the cost of sending,

01:12:20

you know, storing data, the cost of compute. All that has dropped by not just, like, ninety percent. It's dropped by, like, ninety nine and six more nines percent. Healthcare has not moved a bit. Why? It's because

you know, storing data, the cost of compute. All that has dropped by not just, like, ninety percent. It's dropped by, like, ninety nine and six more nines percent. Healthcare has not moved a bit. Why? It's because

01:12:30

of this lobby that exists. The AMA restricts the amount of people who could become doctors.

of this lobby that exists. The AMA restricts the amount of people who could become doctors.

01:12:36

The supply is constrained.

The supply is constrained.

01:12:38

You cannot just graduate a million more doctors tomorrow. If we could do that, what would happen? The price of medical services would drop like a rock. We our country would be saved. Medicare and Medicaid wouldn't be going bankrupt. We have a huge wouldn't be bankrupt bankrupting us. If we had a million more doctors tomorrow, healthcare wouldn't be a problem in America. The problem is we don't have a million more doctors in America. One of the reasons is there's not gonna be a million people who pass med school. The other problem is that AMA specifically says there's only this many med schools. There's only this many,

You cannot just graduate a million more doctors tomorrow. If we could do that, what would happen? The price of medical services would drop like a rock. We our country would be saved. Medicare and Medicaid wouldn't be going bankrupt. We have a huge wouldn't be bankrupt bankrupting us. If we had a million more doctors tomorrow, healthcare wouldn't be a problem in America. The problem is we don't have a million more doctors in America. One of the reasons is there's not gonna be a million people who pass med school. The other problem is that AMA specifically says there's only this many med schools. There's only this many,

01:13:07

doctors graduating from med school. We're gonna make it really hard to become a doc. Even though AI can do all these things very easily, and you're gonna see a lot of industries collapse because of GPT, I think, whether it's law, medicine,

doctors graduating from med school. We're gonna make it really hard to become a doc. Even though AI can do all these things very easily, and you're gonna see a lot of industries collapse because of GPT, I think, whether it's law, medicine,

01:13:19

accounting, there's gonna be a huge change in society thanks to AI and and GPT. So how is this not like, self driving cars where even though self driving is almost like better than a human and and and a bunch of different circumstances, maybe not certain weather conditions.

accounting, there's gonna be a huge change in society thanks to AI and and GPT. So how is this not like, self driving cars where even though self driving is almost like better than a human and and and a bunch of different circumstances, maybe not certain weather conditions.

01:13:34

But

But

01:13:35

if it gets one thing wrong, it's you know, all the news and all the lawsuits. And so they need to be not just better. They need to be so much better that they can kinda overcome that. Like, how do you not just get sued out of existence for the, you know,

if it gets one thing wrong, it's you know, all the news and all the lawsuits. And so they need to be not just better. They need to be so much better that they can kinda overcome that. Like, how do you not just get sued out of existence for the, you know,

01:13:47

the the the, you know, one mistaken medical diagnosis or or,

the the the, you know, one mistaken medical diagnosis or or,

01:13:52

you know, treatment plan or or whatever it is here. How do you how do you avoid that problem?

you know, treatment plan or or whatever it is here. How do you how do you avoid that problem?

01:13:57

Sure. I I think it's a lot like like self driving cars where if you gave me the story where there's fifty thousand auto fatalities a year, right, in America,

Sure. I I think it's a lot like like self driving cars where if you gave me the story where there's fifty thousand auto fatalities a year, right, in America,

01:14:06

And

And

01:14:07

I can press this button right here, and there's gonna be twenty thousand. There's two types of people in the world. There's the first type of person who says, That's amazing. Thirty thousand lives saved, thirty thousand less funerals, thirty thousand less torn families destroyed by needless, you know,

I can press this button right here, and there's gonna be twenty thousand. There's two types of people in the world. There's the first type of person who says, That's amazing. Thirty thousand lives saved, thirty thousand less funerals, thirty thousand less torn families destroyed by needless, you know,

01:14:21

terrible,

terrible,

01:14:22

you know, automobile

you know, automobile

01:14:24

fatality,

fatality,

01:14:25

what a horrible, you know, thing. I'm so happy I can't wait to push that button. You know, anything stopping me from pushing that button is is insane. Right? So why would you delay that for half a second? And then you've got the kind of person, similar to the Stanford party, who says, oh, wait a second.

what a horrible, you know, thing. I'm so happy I can't wait to push that button. You know, anything stopping me from pushing that button is is insane. Right? So why would you delay that for half a second? And then you've got the kind of person, similar to the Stanford party, who says, oh, wait a second.

01:14:40

Are there gonna be twenty thousand deaths from from this? That's an outrage. I can't believe it. Don't push that button. Obviously, one side is right and one side's wrong, you know, but the the the technical progress

Are there gonna be twenty thousand deaths from from this? That's an outrage. I can't believe it. Don't push that button. Obviously, one side is right and one side's wrong, you know, but the the the technical progress

01:14:51

of of the world can't be stopped. I'm part of this EAC group effective accelerationism, which is this, like, new movement that's counter effective altruism. So you see the e forward slash a c c, We've got a lot of really exciting members, some of the biggest people in technology.

of of the world can't be stopped. I'm part of this EAC group effective accelerationism, which is this, like, new movement that's counter effective altruism. So you see the e forward slash a c c, We've got a lot of really exciting members, some of the biggest people in technology.

01:15:07

And it's this sort of, like, underground movement of people who don't wanna slow down AI. People who don't wanna slow down,

And it's this sort of, like, underground movement of people who don't wanna slow down AI. People who don't wanna slow down,

01:15:14

technology.

technology.

01:15:15

And I think that,

And I think that,

01:15:17

you know,

you know,

01:15:18

the idea that we're here to stop progress because The technology might make one mistake.

the idea that we're here to stop progress because The technology might make one mistake.

01:15:23

And remember, that's sort of like stopping the automobile because the automobile itself was an improvement over the horse. We have to move forward in the world. We can't look back and and nitpick on every single mistake in life. And I think that's that's sort of I know that's not how you feel, Sean, but that kind of criticism and that kind of Like, attitude is such a terrible, pernicious threat to our well-being

And remember, that's sort of like stopping the automobile because the automobile itself was an improvement over the horse. We have to move forward in the world. We can't look back and and nitpick on every single mistake in life. And I think that's that's sort of I know that's not how you feel, Sean, but that kind of criticism and that kind of Like, attitude is such a terrible, pernicious threat to our well-being

01:15:43

that, like, we have to look at that class. Not just have full because it's ninety percent full. We can't look at the ten percent that's empty. Right. Yeah. I mean, I get it philosophically. It's like the trolley problem. It's like ten people. The train's gonna run over ten people. Pull this lever. It'll run over those other two. And, you know, there's a

that, like, we have to look at that class. Not just have full because it's ninety percent full. We can't look at the ten percent that's empty. Right. Yeah. I mean, I get it philosophically. It's like the trolley problem. It's like ten people. The train's gonna run over ten people. Pull this lever. It'll run over those other two. And, you know, there's a

01:16:01

whatever. People have people feel different ways about that. Guess what I mean is, like, practically speaking for this company, like, how does this company not die? Because

whatever. People have people feel different ways about that. Guess what I mean is, like, practically speaking for this company, like, how does this company not die? Because

01:16:09

something like that's gonna happen. What what are you gonna do? Like, what what do you think is gonna play out there?

something like that's gonna happen. What what are you gonna do? Like, what what do you think is gonna play out there?

01:16:14

Our programs and policies make sure that you understand that this is medical advice Doctor. Couoop does not a real doctor, that if you,

Our programs and policies make sure that you understand that this is medical advice Doctor. Couoop does not a real doctor, that if you,

01:16:20

use our website for medical information. It's simply for informational purposes only, and you have to I mean, I could read you the whole disclaimer. But the reality of the matter is that Do you want somebody who's seventy five years old, okay, who has,

use our website for medical information. It's simply for informational purposes only, and you have to I mean, I could read you the whole disclaimer. But the reality of the matter is that Do you want somebody who's seventy five years old, okay, who has,

01:16:34

pneumonia, but doesn't know that they have pneumonia.

pneumonia, but doesn't know that they have pneumonia.

01:16:36

They have a cough, but they're gonna die a pneumonia if they don't go to hospital next three days. Do you want that person running around Google, trying to figure out if they have pneumonia or not? Or do you want them to to go to an LOLM? What's better? If you don't have the LLM, they're gonna go to Google. They're gonna go to WebMD. They're gonna try to read it on their own. They're gonna mess it up.

They have a cough, but they're gonna die a pneumonia if they don't go to hospital next three days. Do you want that person running around Google, trying to figure out if they have pneumonia or not? Or do you want them to to go to an LOLM? What's better? If you don't have the LLM, they're gonna go to Google. They're gonna go to WebMD. They're gonna try to read it on their own. They're gonna mess it up.

01:16:54

There's this chance. Whereas if you go to LLM,

There's this chance. Whereas if you go to LLM,

01:16:57

you might actually get the superior technology that may save their life. So you're net improving it. And if you don't want a net improvement, then you're Elizabeth Warren, you're a luddite, you're, etcetera, etcetera, And if you want the improvement, you're on the side right side of history. And I think that if you look at the way technology

you might actually get the superior technology that may save their life. So you're net improving it. And if you don't want a net improvement, then you're Elizabeth Warren, you're a luddite, you're, etcetera, etcetera, And if you want the improvement, you're on the side right side of history. And I think that if you look at the way technology

01:17:14

informs regulation, not the other way around, Right? Regulation has to serve the people. If the people are getting the benefit,

informs regulation, not the other way around, Right? Regulation has to serve the people. If the people are getting the benefit,

01:17:21

the people will demand the right side. If you have people that wanna stand in a way of of improvement, That's up to them. Listen. If if if we're told you gotta block doctor Gupta in this state or this country. Okay. The Philippines will have it. Remember, TPT

the people will demand the right side. If you have people that wanna stand in a way of of improvement, That's up to them. Listen. If if if we're told you gotta block doctor Gupta in this state or this country. Okay. The Philippines will have it. Remember, TPT

01:17:35

is is

is is

01:17:36

is,

is,

01:17:37

knows every single language. It's it's lingual in every single language in the world. So Japan will have this for free tomorrow. It's like Pitroll. It's mister worldwide. Right? It's a global product, and that's the amazing thing about being a developer. You normally have to worry about localization,

knows every single language. It's it's lingual in every single language in the world. So Japan will have this for free tomorrow. It's like Pitroll. It's mister worldwide. Right? It's a global product, and that's the amazing thing about being a developer. You normally have to worry about localization,

01:17:51

right, language, all that crap. It's gone now with GPT. This doctor Gupta knows every language. He knows we they they beta test this in Spanish.

right, language, all that crap. It's gone now with GPT. This doctor Gupta knows every language. He knows we they they beta test this in Spanish.

01:17:58

We do we might vocalize him and make him like,

We do we might vocalize him and make him like,

01:18:02

Doctor somebody else in in in Latin America, but doctor Gupta matches GPT. Our other option was doctor Lynn, LLC,

Doctor somebody else in in in Latin America, but doctor Gupta matches GPT. Our other option was doctor Lynn, LLC,

01:18:10

So, you know, we pick doctor doctor Gupta Kazis, literally doctor GPT.

So, you know, we pick doctor doctor Gupta Kazis, literally doctor GPT.

01:18:16

Honestly, it's kind of a genius name as Avian and I I will give it my seal of approval.

Honestly, it's kind of a genius name as Avian and I I will give it my seal of approval.

01:18:21

I think that's is very Thank you. Very clever.

I think that's is very Thank you. Very clever.

01:18:25

Now six months ago or nine months ago, I was talking to you and you had crypto company that was, like, a three d modeling company for drugs. What happened to that company? Did you ditch it, or is it you do both? Or what's So it's all It's it's all under one hood. So our company is called deal software.

Now six months ago or nine months ago, I was talking to you and you had crypto company that was, like, a three d modeling company for drugs. What happened to that company? Did you ditch it, or is it you do both? Or what's So it's all It's it's all under one hood. So our company is called deal software.

01:18:39

We've raised some some money from from some really well known people in in in the valley it's been, you know, again, an interesting dilemma where you have, like,

We've raised some some money from from some really well known people in in in the valley it's been, you know, again, an interesting dilemma where you have, like,

01:18:48

people who wanna support you. Like, all these people actually said that my YouTube finance videos, you mentioned content creating, that it it got them through, like, a state venture title. I watched a ton of those. I watched all those. Thank you. And and, like, I'm so lucky that These people, some of whom started some of the biggest software companies in our industry,

people who wanna support you. Like, all these people actually said that my YouTube finance videos, you mentioned content creating, that it it got them through, like, a state venture title. I watched a ton of those. I watched all those. Thank you. And and, like, I'm so lucky that These people, some of whom started some of the biggest software companies in our industry,

01:19:07

the literally, like, maybe the top five unicorns and software, like, three of the four c accounts. Hey. It was not like that. We're we're, like, I messaged these guys and they're like, oh, you're my teacher. I'm like, so flattered, you know, that these billionaires are are are, like, on my side. That really happened. And they're like, yeah. I've

the literally, like, maybe the top five unicorns and software, like, three of the four c accounts. Hey. It was not like that. We're we're, like, I messaged these guys and they're like, oh, you're my teacher. I'm like, so flattered, you know, that these billionaires are are are, like, on my side. That really happened. And they're like, yeah. I've

01:19:23

sorry. That really happened?

sorry. That really happened?

01:19:25

Yeah. A billionaire.

Yeah. A billionaire.

01:19:27

Several billionaires,

Several billionaires,

01:19:28

you know, several billionaires are are lusters and are ever Several billionaires have smashed the so subscribe button, hit the turn notifications on. Leave a leave a message in the comments on YouTube. I love it. It's really, really humbling because it's, like, you know,

you know, several billionaires are are lusters and are ever Several billionaires have smashed the so subscribe button, hit the turn notifications on. Leave a leave a message in the comments on YouTube. I love it. It's really, really humbling because it's, like, you know,

01:19:41

You know, did you couldn't find that kind of content where, like, you could you could talk to somebody who's a publicly traded company CEO showing you, like, step by step, kinda, what their job was like, And I think more than just, like, how to read a balance sheet, I taught an attitude too. That kind of the one thing I learned for grammar, which is, like, this hardcore attitude of, like, You love this stuff. You're up, like, people would watch me stream, like, four in the morning, like, getting ready to go, you know, tear tear the world and a new asshole because I'm so, like, excited about doing my job. And I think it got a lot of people out of a funk or out of, like, a a hard time and, like, just pushing people to, like, push harder, push harder, that worked for so many people at at these at these unicorns, these mega unicorns, these, like, ten x unicorns

You know, did you couldn't find that kind of content where, like, you could you could talk to somebody who's a publicly traded company CEO showing you, like, step by step, kinda, what their job was like, And I think more than just, like, how to read a balance sheet, I taught an attitude too. That kind of the one thing I learned for grammar, which is, like, this hardcore attitude of, like, You love this stuff. You're up, like, people would watch me stream, like, four in the morning, like, getting ready to go, you know, tear tear the world and a new asshole because I'm so, like, excited about doing my job. And I think it got a lot of people out of a funk or out of, like, a a hard time and, like, just pushing people to, like, push harder, push harder, that worked for so many people at at these at these unicorns, these mega unicorns, these, like, ten x unicorns

01:20:20

that that Yeah. That that's why I said you're amazing content because you have the the trifecta. There's three things it takes to be graded content.

that that Yeah. That that's why I said you're amazing content because you have the the trifecta. There's three things it takes to be graded content.

01:20:28

The first is unique perspective or unique unique POV Right? So you you have unique, unique specific set of knowledge

The first is unique perspective or unique unique POV Right? So you you have unique, unique specific set of knowledge

01:20:35

that the average person doesn't have. Okay. That's most people would expect that. Now here's the unexpected ones.

that the average person doesn't have. Okay. That's most people would expect that. Now here's the unexpected ones.

01:20:40

You do energy transmission. So,

You do energy transmission. So,

01:20:43

most content is actually just a transfer of my energy and excitement or outrage about whatever it is. To you. And the if I'm able to express it, if I can show you that I'm juiced up about this, I've watched you at your computer that you, like, get up. You do push ups on the ground. You're like, pumped up about whatever or you're you're calling somebody out or whatever it is, it's energy transmission. And the last thing, you're like a reality TV person. You kinda know what you're supposed to say, but you don't really care and you wanna say what you like, you don't really care. You care more about, like,

most content is actually just a transfer of my energy and excitement or outrage about whatever it is. To you. And the if I'm able to express it, if I can show you that I'm juiced up about this, I've watched you at your computer that you, like, get up. You do push ups on the ground. You're like, pumped up about whatever or you're you're calling somebody out or whatever it is, it's energy transmission. And the last thing, you're like a reality TV person. You kinda know what you're supposed to say, but you don't really care and you wanna say what you like, you don't really care. You care more about, like,

01:21:16

saying the thing, then what people will think of you saying the thing. And, some for some reality TV people, it's because they're just not aware. They don't know it. You know it, and you just don't care. You, like, override that sensor, and you're like, no. That sensor doesn't get to decide what's going on here. And so you have you have all three And I think that that's what makes your streams so impressive. Like you said at the beginning of this, I don't do the, like, just wing it, but I I've seen you just wing it, and I actually think that's your best content. So I don't know what you meant by that.

saying the thing, then what people will think of you saying the thing. And, some for some reality TV people, it's because they're just not aware. They don't know it. You know it, and you just don't care. You, like, override that sensor, and you're like, no. That sensor doesn't get to decide what's going on here. And so you have you have all three And I think that that's what makes your streams so impressive. Like you said at the beginning of this, I don't do the, like, just wing it, but I I've seen you just wing it, and I actually think that's your best content. So I don't know what you meant by that.

01:21:44

Well, just like closing the loop on it, like, I I only started those streams because, you know, I didn't want people to think I was the farmer bro, which I was, like, being characterized as. And I basically wanted people to, like, judge for themselves, like, see a day in my life, see if, like, you think I'm a dick or not. And some people said, yeah, I still think you're a dick, but some people said, you know, I kinda like this guy. And, you know, maybe this is, like, a little bit of what I wanna be like.

Well, just like closing the loop on it, like, I I only started those streams because, you know, I didn't want people to think I was the farmer bro, which I was, like, being characterized as. And I basically wanted people to, like, judge for themselves, like, see a day in my life, see if, like, you think I'm a dick or not. And some people said, yeah, I still think you're a dick, but some people said, you know, I kinda like this guy. And, you know, maybe this is, like, a little bit of what I wanna be like.

01:22:07

And so the point is, like, I'm so lucky that the people who watched that in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, I'd say not all of them became successful, but a handful of them, the top couple of people became unbelievably successful. And that's maybe because of me, maybe not because of me, maybe it's in spite of me. You know, but the the the whole point that they some of them thank me for it is as I'm I'm really lucky for that. I have three software products under our our sort of umbrella here, but I think that, like, the key thing for our company is is getting amazing talent, you know, in in any industry, but especially in tech. Like, the only really thing that matters is this combination of capital and and people. And know, the capital is easy to get. You know, there's there's infinite capital in the world. It's it's about, you know, do you have the people to execute the plan? And and I'm so lucky that, like, a little bit of this personal profile

And so the point is, like, I'm so lucky that the people who watched that in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, I'd say not all of them became successful, but a handful of them, the top couple of people became unbelievably successful. And that's maybe because of me, maybe not because of me, maybe it's in spite of me. You know, but the the the whole point that they some of them thank me for it is as I'm I'm really lucky for that. I have three software products under our our sort of umbrella here, but I think that, like, the key thing for our company is is getting amazing talent, you know, in in any industry, but especially in tech. Like, the only really thing that matters is this combination of capital and and people. And know, the capital is easy to get. You know, there's there's infinite capital in the world. It's it's about, you know, do you have the people to execute the plan? And and I'm so lucky that, like, a little bit of this personal profile

01:22:51

gets great engineers to come to the table and talk doesn't always get them in the door, but the fact that, like, we can do that and the, like, the one skill I have as a manager to your your to your point, is that energy transfer of, like, getting people, like, can you, can I pump you up about making a synthetic doctor?

gets great engineers to come to the table and talk doesn't always get them in the door, but the fact that, like, we can do that and the, like, the one skill I have as a manager to your your to your point, is that energy transfer of, like, getting people, like, can you, can I pump you up about making a synthetic doctor?

01:23:06

Well, to some people that might be really boring, And if you pitch it the wrong way, if you're, like, at a big health care company, you're, like, well, we're gonna make medical information, you know, diagnostic tools, etcetera, etcetera. It sounds like shit. Know, but if you if you do it the right way, and you explain to the engineer that there's if we do our jobs right, there's no such thing as a doctor in thirty years. That every operation, every prescription, every piece of medical advice you ever get from now on comes from a machine at a cost ten cents.

Well, to some people that might be really boring, And if you pitch it the wrong way, if you're, like, at a big health care company, you're, like, well, we're gonna make medical information, you know, diagnostic tools, etcetera, etcetera. It sounds like shit. Know, but if you if you do it the right way, and you explain to the engineer that there's if we do our jobs right, there's no such thing as a doctor in thirty years. That every operation, every prescription, every piece of medical advice you ever get from now on comes from a machine at a cost ten cents.

01:23:32

That changes the world, That's something that you're gonna leave a legacy. We're gonna make a fortune. We're gonna have a lot of fun, and it's gonna change the world for everyone. For the Indonesian,

That changes the world, That's something that you're gonna leave a legacy. We're gonna make a fortune. We're gonna have a lot of fun, and it's gonna change the world for everyone. For the Indonesian,

01:23:41

that can't see a doctor for thirty days, and the doctor they're seeing is a very questionable variety, you know, and and and provenance

that can't see a doctor for thirty days, and the doctor they're seeing is a very questionable variety, you know, and and and provenance

01:23:48

to be able to get the best medical

to be able to get the best medical

01:23:50

pertise of an American physician.

pertise of an American physician.

01:23:52

That's insane.

That's insane.

01:23:53

Right? And and we're getting that tomorrow. And I think that, again, you can't get a prescription from doctor Gupta, and he's not gonna cut out your bunion. But I think that the fact that we can even tug to touch five ten percent of health care costs, that's hundreds of billions of dollars. It's bigger than Google's.

Right? And and we're getting that tomorrow. And I think that, again, you can't get a prescription from doctor Gupta, and he's not gonna cut out your bunion. But I think that the fact that we can even tug to touch five ten percent of health care costs, that's hundreds of billions of dollars. It's bigger than Google's.

01:24:09

Tamp. So, like, you know, health care is one of these just gigantic spots that has never been chunked by by technology despite the best attempts of Santill Road, like a billions of dollars flew into digital health. There's just no obvious way to take a sledgehammer to this. You have to understand that health care is is basically all money that goes to people who just sloshed it around for this, like, very

Tamp. So, like, you know, health care is one of these just gigantic spots that has never been chunked by by technology despite the best attempts of Santill Road, like a billions of dollars flew into digital health. There's just no obvious way to take a sledgehammer to this. You have to understand that health care is is basically all money that goes to people who just sloshed it around for this, like, very

01:24:31

AI simple simple pump for AI for that little advice of, yeah, you should take this beta blocker or should not take this beta blocker or we should do the surgery or not do the surgery. And that human advice is really important. But at the same time, like, you know, a good chunk of it could probably be automated.

AI simple simple pump for AI for that little advice of, yeah, you should take this beta blocker or should not take this beta blocker or we should do the surgery or not do the surgery. And that human advice is really important. But at the same time, like, you know, a good chunk of it could probably be automated.

01:24:45

The last thing I wanted to bring up was, like, so I I ran this company called The Hussle, which we wrote about you. And you actually were homies with, Brina, this woman who worked for me. And you were, like, at one point, we were, like, hey, come visit me in San Diego. And try. Remember, like, Yeah. And Trunk. Yeah. And I remember, like, right when your story broke. It was pharma Bro. And then I got to, like, I well, you and I chatted on blah before, and I've I I don't know if you remember what we talked before. And I'm, like, It's funny. This guy's not really a bro at all. Like, he's he's just a nerd. He's just, like, care you know, he talks a lot, like, and he's confident, but he's, like, like, a pretty nerdy guy. And the reason

The last thing I wanted to bring up was, like, so I I ran this company called The Hussle, which we wrote about you. And you actually were homies with, Brina, this woman who worked for me. And you were, like, at one point, we were, like, hey, come visit me in San Diego. And try. Remember, like, Yeah. And Trunk. Yeah. And I remember, like, right when your story broke. It was pharma Bro. And then I got to, like, I well, you and I chatted on blah before, and I've I I don't know if you remember what we talked before. And I'm, like, It's funny. This guy's not really a bro at all. Like, he's he's just a nerd. He's just, like, care you know, he talks a lot, like, and he's confident, but he's, like, like, a pretty nerdy guy. And the reason

01:25:19

it it's so funny about media perception. The reason your story

it it's so funny about media perception. The reason your story

01:25:23

did, I think, the way it all, like, started was you have this picture. I'm looking at it at it now. It's you wearing, like, ray bans in a red polo and you have, like, a picture of, looks like flow rider in the back, like, on a music video, the bugatti, and you're, like, pointing down like this, and you're, like, your jaw line looks cut, and you look like, the brogiest of bros. And I remember

did, I think, the way it all, like, started was you have this picture. I'm looking at it at it now. It's you wearing, like, ray bans in a red polo and you have, like, a picture of, looks like flow rider in the back, like, on a music video, the bugatti, and you're, like, pointing down like this, and you're, like, your jaw line looks cut, and you look like, the brogiest of bros. And I remember

01:25:44

when we wrote this story in the hustle,

when we wrote this story in the hustle,

01:25:46

we tried a bunch of different photos, and that photo did best because it's just like you're just like, giving into this big old stereotype.

we tried a bunch of different photos, and that photo did best because it's just like you're just like, giving into this big old stereotype.

01:25:53

And, We just we just made this we just made this train. Fucking picture ruined you, man. So the backstory is funny. Like, we had just done this stock trade. It was in my personal account who made twenty million dollars, shorting

And, We just we just made this we just made this train. Fucking picture ruined you, man. So the backstory is funny. Like, we had just done this stock trade. It was in my personal account who made twenty million dollars, shorting

01:26:06

the stock called vital therapies. They were developing a liver dialysis machine.

the stock called vital therapies. They were developing a liver dialysis machine.

01:26:10

We spent day and night stalking this company and figuring out everything about the attempt to make a liver dialysis machine works for a kidney really well. They wanted to take that same idea and apply it to liver. Sounds good. Right? Doesn't work. There are a lot of technical reasons. Me and two colleagues spent day in, day out stalking figuring this coming out. We wrote a forty page report. We put the report out. The stock fell like forty percent just on the report.

We spent day and night stalking this company and figuring out everything about the attempt to make a liver dialysis machine works for a kidney really well. They wanted to take that same idea and apply it to liver. Sounds good. Right? Doesn't work. There are a lot of technical reasons. Me and two colleagues spent day in, day out stalking figuring this coming out. We wrote a forty page report. We put the report out. The stock fell like forty percent just on the report.

01:26:34

Two week later, the drug, the device ended up proving that it didn't work. It didn't help anybody. With severe liver disease, then the stock went down, like, ninety percent. And we were short to stock. And so the day you went down, we did that the floorwriter song is called, it's going down or something like that. And so I was, like, you know, doing this, like, thing, because, like, we thought these guys were basically fraudsters, you know, lying about their liver device, which had proven that it doesn't even help people. It probably hurts them. But they were still trying to get through that, like, venture capital mind and and and, public company grind of, like, lying and trying to make shit stick and and make put the best, you know, spin on things And so when we shorted it and it went down, it was it's going down. You know, that was the kind of joke. And I was like, oh, how funny would it be if I know, dressed up like a bro for a second. And, like, we had a friend in the trade too. We had a couple of friends in the trade. Like, putting it on Twitter was was kinda like a Oh, check it out. Like, it's going down because of us because we wrote the short report. And, again, what the next, like, two weeks, the same

Two week later, the drug, the device ended up proving that it didn't work. It didn't help anybody. With severe liver disease, then the stock went down, like, ninety percent. And we were short to stock. And so the day you went down, we did that the floorwriter song is called, it's going down or something like that. And so I was, like, you know, doing this, like, thing, because, like, we thought these guys were basically fraudsters, you know, lying about their liver device, which had proven that it doesn't even help people. It probably hurts them. But they were still trying to get through that, like, venture capital mind and and and, public company grind of, like, lying and trying to make shit stick and and make put the best, you know, spin on things And so when we shorted it and it went down, it was it's going down. You know, that was the kind of joke. And I was like, oh, how funny would it be if I know, dressed up like a bro for a second. And, like, we had a friend in the trade too. We had a couple of friends in the trade. Like, putting it on Twitter was was kinda like a Oh, check it out. Like, it's going down because of us because we wrote the short report. And, again, what the next, like, two weeks, the same

01:27:32

I made it like my profile pic, and, like, that's two weeks. Like, that that's what everyone sees on. It's like, oh, holy shit, man, this picture.

I made it like my profile pic, and, like, that's two weeks. Like, that that's what everyone sees on. It's like, oh, holy shit, man, this picture.

01:27:39

Yeah. Like, this picture is, like, It's just so funny. Like, I I don't know the whole facts of your story, and you admitted admitted wrong doing and everything, but it's like it was it was amplified and, this picture was, like, the beginning of the end for you. This one picture. That's what it seems. Because I remember this one picture going

Yeah. Like, this picture is, like, It's just so funny. Like, I I don't know the whole facts of your story, and you admitted admitted wrong doing and everything, but it's like it was it was amplified and, this picture was, like, the beginning of the end for you. This one picture. That's what it seems. Because I remember this one picture going

01:27:55

The beginning of an interesting sport

The beginning of an interesting sport

01:27:58

I, like I I to me, like, I'll I'll take it and try it. Like, you would look at it and many other people look at it as the beginning of the end. I look at it as life's a just a crazy ride. It's a crazy movie. You know, it would be very boring to, like, be a value investor for the next fifty years and make a hundred billion dollars doing Graham and Dodd stock picking, like, it's right for somebody else. It's not right for my life, and it is the path I chose, you know, not Like, you know, it was an intentional choice, you know, maybe not the wisest choice, but it is the choice for me. And, you know, I I don't regret having had, like, a really interesting, exciting,

I, like I I to me, like, I'll I'll take it and try it. Like, you would look at it and many other people look at it as the beginning of the end. I look at it as life's a just a crazy ride. It's a crazy movie. You know, it would be very boring to, like, be a value investor for the next fifty years and make a hundred billion dollars doing Graham and Dodd stock picking, like, it's right for somebody else. It's not right for my life, and it is the path I chose, you know, not Like, you know, it was an intentional choice, you know, maybe not the wisest choice, but it is the choice for me. And, you know, I I don't regret having had, like, a really interesting, exciting,

01:28:32

life, there are moments of it that weren't fun, but there's it's still one of these things where I'm not, like, deeply ashamed of, like, something I did or something like that. Like, it's a conscious choice I made to sort of, like, do the things I did. The photo was, you know, it was alarming to me that the media could take, like, an image and say, okay. This is this person. Let's let's cast it this way. And I think it sort of backfired in the long run. You know, I I'm sort of more popular than ever, and you know, kind of doing just fine. So

life, there are moments of it that weren't fun, but there's it's still one of these things where I'm not, like, deeply ashamed of, like, something I did or something like that. Like, it's a conscious choice I made to sort of, like, do the things I did. The photo was, you know, it was alarming to me that the media could take, like, an image and say, okay. This is this person. Let's let's cast it this way. And I think it sort of backfired in the long run. You know, I I'm sort of more popular than ever, and you know, kind of doing just fine. So

01:29:00

So if you there's a price to be paid. If you could go,

So if you there's a price to be paid. If you could go,

01:29:03

if you could go back, would you have advised, you know, if you can go back and kinda whisper in the ear of yourself at any point in time, you know, would you have told yourself, hey. If you go on TV, don't Don't don't say that thing. Don't don't be smug. Don't do this. Don't do that. Would you have played it differently knowing what you know now?

if you could go back, would you have advised, you know, if you can go back and kinda whisper in the ear of yourself at any point in time, you know, would you have told yourself, hey. If you go on TV, don't Don't don't say that thing. Don't don't be smug. Don't do this. Don't do that. Would you have played it differently knowing what you know now?

01:29:20

I think I I think, like,

I think I I think, like,

01:29:22

you know, there's two sides of the story with, like, the rationalist

you know, there's two sides of the story with, like, the rationalist

01:29:25

would say, of course, you know, like, tone it down here, you know, tuck in your, you know, tuck that in, tuck in your shirt there, you know, straighten up there,

would say, of course, you know, like, tone it down here, you know, tuck in your, you know, tuck that in, tuck in your shirt there, you know, straighten up there,

01:29:33

metaphorically.

metaphorically.

01:29:34

But the the I think the the oldest wisdom is know thyself, right, and it's, like, to be yourself, know yourself, be be be who you are. And, like, if you spend the rest of your life trying to make somebody else happy in in conforming to society, it's gonna be not a life worth living. And if you spend your life answering to your own conscience, I think then, you know, you you can no matter what happens, no matter stick, put you in jail for the rest of your life, you'll you'll have the at least have something nobody could take away from you, which is, like, your your your own identity and your own personality. And I think there's a lot of You sound like William Waller, you're like William Wallace and and braveheart, you know, they'll take our freedom, or what did they say? They'll take our lives. We'll never take our freedom.

But the the I think the the oldest wisdom is know thyself, right, and it's, like, to be yourself, know yourself, be be be who you are. And, like, if you spend the rest of your life trying to make somebody else happy in in conforming to society, it's gonna be not a life worth living. And if you spend your life answering to your own conscience, I think then, you know, you you can no matter what happens, no matter stick, put you in jail for the rest of your life, you'll you'll have the at least have something nobody could take away from you, which is, like, your your your own identity and your own personality. And I think there's a lot of You sound like William Waller, you're like William Wallace and and braveheart, you know, they'll take our freedom, or what did they say? They'll take our lives. We'll never take our freedom.

01:30:12

You know, there there's there's there's a point in time where you have to be a real person, and and I think, like, if you wanna

You know, there there's there's there's a point in time where you have to be a real person, and and I think, like, if you wanna

01:30:17

be a corporate sort of, like,

be a corporate sort of, like,

01:30:20

mimic of, like, every other corporate person in the world, No. That's a that's a life. If that's life you want, that that's life you want. I there's just only so much that life that that I can take. And for me, I had it when it came to, like, the media like you said, you know, with the with the full right of picture

mimic of, like, every other corporate person in the world, No. That's a that's a life. If that's life you want, that that's life you want. I there's just only so much that life that that I can take. And for me, I had it when it came to, like, the media like you said, you know, with the with the full right of picture

01:30:34

or or whatever, the typecasting, it was like, you know, I I can't that's that's a line that was too much for me. So I think it's it's probably more reactive than anything else. Like, Hillary Clinton, tweeting at me and stuff like that. It was, like, so surreal. Like, me, you know, the mild mannered pharmaceutical executive guy, I'm I'm the conflict of your fucking spawn, you know, this is nuts. You know? So a lot of it was that, like,

or or whatever, the typecasting, it was like, you know, I I can't that's that's a line that was too much for me. So I think it's it's probably more reactive than anything else. Like, Hillary Clinton, tweeting at me and stuff like that. It was, like, so surreal. Like, me, you know, the mild mannered pharmaceutical executive guy, I'm I'm the conflict of your fucking spawn, you know, this is nuts. You know? So a lot of it was that, like,

01:30:56

provoke and and be provoked. Like, you know, it it it was not, like, easy to to sit there and just do nothing. So, like, it's easy. Like, yeah, I'll turn it on you guys. Like, it's very easy to sort of throw advice out. But when you're in a hot seat, and somebody says, oh, aren't you this and aren't you that? And, you know, You say, well, you know, I'm sorry. I caused some disturbance here, and I'm just really, you know, it's really hard to do that, you know, sometimes.

provoke and and be provoked. Like, you know, it it it was not, like, easy to to sit there and just do nothing. So, like, it's easy. Like, yeah, I'll turn it on you guys. Like, it's very easy to sort of throw advice out. But when you're in a hot seat, and somebody says, oh, aren't you this and aren't you that? And, you know, You say, well, you know, I'm sorry. I caused some disturbance here, and I'm just really, you know, it's really hard to do that, you know, sometimes.

01:31:21

You,

You,

01:31:24

First of all, that's hilarious. So, meanwhile, you don't know a super well, but best before our old kind of podcast set up. Sam used to have these photos on the wall of, like, his hall his, like, personal hall of fame. And it'd be, like, you know, some inspiration from business, like, Sam, before he started the hustle, he really loved Ted Turner. He's like, dude, this guy, like, made the fucking news business. And he's a baller. He, like, he he attacked it in this way. He had Nick Diaz up there. He's like, oh, guy. He's a UFC fighter. He's, like, just a badass. It just takes us attitude into into life. That's that we like. You know, I like Conor McGregor, and I think he's interesting. And I I like, you know, certain things that he's done about. He's like, you know, I don't like all of these people. I just like certain things. I took inspiration from certain things at certain periods of certain people's lives.

First of all, that's hilarious. So, meanwhile, you don't know a super well, but best before our old kind of podcast set up. Sam used to have these photos on the wall of, like, his hall his, like, personal hall of fame. And it'd be, like, you know, some inspiration from business, like, Sam, before he started the hustle, he really loved Ted Turner. He's like, dude, this guy, like, made the fucking news business. And he's a baller. He, like, he he attacked it in this way. He had Nick Diaz up there. He's like, oh, guy. He's a UFC fighter. He's, like, just a badass. It just takes us attitude into into life. That's that we like. You know, I like Conor McGregor, and I think he's interesting. And I I like, you know, certain things that he's done about. He's like, you know, I don't like all of these people. I just like certain things. I took inspiration from certain things at certain periods of certain people's lives.

01:32:05

Who were kind of who were some people that you were inspired by, either in the business world or the non business world, that that you think are You sort of have admired or you've gone down the YouTube rabbit hole and just, you know,

Who were kind of who were some people that you were inspired by, either in the business world or the non business world, that that you think are You sort of have admired or you've gone down the YouTube rabbit hole and just, you know,

01:32:16

binged a bunch of their content or whatever.

binged a bunch of their content or whatever.

01:32:19

I'll start with Vince McMan.

I'll start with Vince McMan.

01:32:21

You know, so even when I

You know, so even when I

01:32:24

when I started to be this, like, bad guy, and I realized that There was nothing I could do to change that narrative.

when I started to be this, like, bad guy, and I realized that There was nothing I could do to change that narrative.

01:32:30

Like, I could do a two hour interview with ABC. You're the heel. And they would take the the thirty seconds that me and and make the thirty seconds loop. And, like, forget the other, you know, hundred and nineteen minutes. Those thirty seconds are are the ones that are gonna be on TV. I realized, like, there's no way out of this, and I'm gonna have to embrace being the bad guy, and some people will get the joke, and and some people won't.

Like, I could do a two hour interview with ABC. You're the heel. And they would take the the thirty seconds that me and and make the thirty seconds loop. And, like, forget the other, you know, hundred and nineteen minutes. Those thirty seconds are are the ones that are gonna be on TV. I realized, like, there's no way out of this, and I'm gonna have to embrace being the bad guy, and some people will get the joke, and and some people won't.

01:32:50

But, you know, fuck it. If if if if that's what people want, then I'll be the bad guy. And I sort of embrace either being this jerk and trying to dress down, you know, the so called authority.

But, you know, fuck it. If if if if that's what people want, then I'll be the bad guy. And I sort of embrace either being this jerk and trying to dress down, you know, the so called authority.

01:33:00

Figures,

Figures,

01:33:01

by by sort of pointing, you know, pointing the the mirror back at them.

by by sort of pointing, you know, pointing the the mirror back at them.

01:33:05

So Vince Vince sort of, like, had that, like, Cafe, wrestling,

So Vince Vince sort of, like, had that, like, Cafe, wrestling,

01:33:09

know, they call it a heel in wrestling,

know, they call it a heel in wrestling,

01:33:12

where, you know, he's he he's the owner of the company, but he's also kind of, like, breaking down that fourth wall of, like, some of the stuff he's talking about on the show is, like, related to actual war room battles. And, like, some of the, you know, stuff on the show is is completely contrived. And, you know, it's just a fantastic product, and I I like the company and what they've done with it over the years. So, you know, I'm a big fan of Vince's.

where, you know, he's he he's the owner of the company, but he's also kind of, like, breaking down that fourth wall of, like, some of the stuff he's talking about on the show is, like, related to actual war room battles. And, like, some of the, you know, stuff on the show is is completely contrived. And, you know, it's just a fantastic product, and I I like the company and what they've done with it over the years. So, you know, I'm a big fan of Vince's.

01:33:33

You know, I I I like a lot of different scientists and stuff like at, you know, so business people themselves,

You know, I I I like a lot of different scientists and stuff like at, you know, so business people themselves,

01:33:40

you know, there there aren't of a lot that I, like, point to and say, oh, that's somebody I'd I'd like to be like or something like that, but Growing up, I always liked Bill Gates who was kind of this, you know, smug,

you know, there there aren't of a lot that I, like, point to and say, oh, that's somebody I'd I'd like to be like or something like that, but Growing up, I always liked Bill Gates who was kind of this, you know, smug,

01:33:51

hated, by the way. In ninety four, Bill Gates was was sued for monopoly, but his company was, not him. And people wanted to tear this guy apart. And I was just sort of coming up. I was, like, eleven years old. I love computers. I started programming.

hated, by the way. In ninety four, Bill Gates was was sued for monopoly, but his company was, not him. And people wanted to tear this guy apart. And I was just sort of coming up. I was, like, eleven years old. I love computers. I started programming.

01:34:04

Was like, whoever owned hates Bill Gates and the hacker community hated Bill Gates. And and it's because he wanted to make money. And he's not apologetic about it. And I kinda like this guy. I like the cuturianism of being like, you know what? I like Microsoft. I like Billy. No one's willing to say that. And, like, we would these things that we're all using Microsoft products. Right? I was like, what would we be doing without it? And, you know, the Linux nerds would be like, well, you know, we can we don't to use them. And it's like, look, the whole world's using them for a reason. They're pretty good products. And I I just sort of liked taking that bad guy. And at the time, he was so really hated and sort of saying, you know, I I'm on his side. You know, the media was on his case because he was the richest guy in the world, but couldn't afford a good haircut. You know, they always just dog him for no reason. And he spent the rest of his life, like, trying to walk back on that. And, like, how cool it had been if he sort of embraced the narrative? Like, yeah, know, because part of it, lead, he does embrace the narrative. Right? It's just an it's just sort of this public image of, like, oh, no. I'm I'm this benevolent philanthropist. You don't understand.

Was like, whoever owned hates Bill Gates and the hacker community hated Bill Gates. And and it's because he wanted to make money. And he's not apologetic about it. And I kinda like this guy. I like the cuturianism of being like, you know what? I like Microsoft. I like Billy. No one's willing to say that. And, like, we would these things that we're all using Microsoft products. Right? I was like, what would we be doing without it? And, you know, the Linux nerds would be like, well, you know, we can we don't to use them. And it's like, look, the whole world's using them for a reason. They're pretty good products. And I I just sort of liked taking that bad guy. And at the time, he was so really hated and sort of saying, you know, I I'm on his side. You know, the media was on his case because he was the richest guy in the world, but couldn't afford a good haircut. You know, they always just dog him for no reason. And he spent the rest of his life, like, trying to walk back on that. And, like, how cool it had been if he sort of embraced the narrative? Like, yeah, know, because part of it, lead, he does embrace the narrative. Right? It's just an it's just sort of this public image of, like, oh, no. I'm I'm this benevolent philanthropist. You don't understand.

01:35:03

Privately, the guy's still just as ruthless, still just as vicious and and just as energetic and intense as he was when he was a kid. So You know, it's it's all this, like, you know, imagery for for nothing.

Privately, the guy's still just as ruthless, still just as vicious and and just as energetic and intense as he was when he was a kid. So You know, it's it's all this, like, you know, imagery for for nothing.

01:35:14

And, you know, there's a number of other folks like, Henry Nicholas, who started Broadcom,

And, you know, there's a number of other folks like, Henry Nicholas, who started Broadcom,

01:35:18

No. I I mean, I there's just so many people that, you know, I've studied in business over the years that I I like Tom Pedderfeed from interactive brokers,

No. I I mean, I there's just so many people that, you know, I've studied in business over the years that I I like Tom Pedderfeed from interactive brokers,

01:35:25

So many people I admire that that did did things their way,

So many people I admire that that did did things their way,

01:35:29

and and made it work,

and and made it work,

01:35:31

people, especially who who sort of have come from nothing or came from, like, with very little on their back. A lot of people dog, George Soros,

people, especially who who sort of have come from nothing or came from, like, with very little on their back. A lot of people dog, George Soros,

01:35:38

you know, who's, you know,

you know, who's, you know,

01:35:40

a a true American success story, and people sort of forget that you know, or don't understand that, like, all the stuff in politics and, like, the soros funded prosecutor and stuff like that, that barely pays attention to shit. You know, I think that, like, idea that he's spending his day, like, plotting with, you know, the, you know, the world economic forum to, like, run the world. Is this, like, right wing mean that's just not not based in reality? And you know, the guy's work in hedge funds and investing is is, like, truly remarkable how he came from, like, sort of the, you know, World War two, basically, to to America to become truly successful So people like that, I admire, you know, anyone who sort of have this against all odds, type of success,

a a true American success story, and people sort of forget that you know, or don't understand that, like, all the stuff in politics and, like, the soros funded prosecutor and stuff like that, that barely pays attention to shit. You know, I think that, like, idea that he's spending his day, like, plotting with, you know, the, you know, the world economic forum to, like, run the world. Is this, like, right wing mean that's just not not based in reality? And you know, the guy's work in hedge funds and investing is is, like, truly remarkable how he came from, like, sort of the, you know, World War two, basically, to to America to become truly successful So people like that, I admire, you know, anyone who sort of have this against all odds, type of success,

01:36:18

you know, even people like, Robert Smith, you know, who run Vista,

you know, even people like, Robert Smith, you know, who run Vista,

01:36:23

you know, people who have, like, really bucked, you know, any conventions and expectations of them to to be really successful. So there's so many people that I have up there on that wall.

you know, people who have, like, really bucked, you know, any conventions and expectations of them to to be really successful. So there's so many people that I have up there on that wall.

01:36:32

And again, it's not, you know, every like you said, it's not every piece of their life, but little pieces of of sort of made me -- I have bill gates. On mine because of the the interview we're

And again, it's not, you know, every like you said, it's not every piece of their life, but little pieces of of sort of made me -- I have bill gates. On mine because of the the interview we're

01:36:42

about the chair jumping over the chair. We jumped and see this one. Right? What are the I still think that's the most gangster

about the chair jumping over the chair. We jumped and see this one. Right? What are the I still think that's the most gangster

01:36:48

like, CEO interview moment. I don't even know how this came up. And then he

like, CEO interview moment. I don't even know how this came up. And then he

01:36:52

he's

he's

01:36:54

She I think the interview was, like, I can't prove that you could You know how to jump over a chair? He goes, yeah. No. No. He goes. Do it. He goes, well, it depends on the height of the chair. And then it cuts to a chair and clearing it like Tony Hawk.

She I think the interview was, like, I can't prove that you could You know how to jump over a chair? He goes, yeah. No. No. He goes. Do it. He goes, well, it depends on the height of the chair. And then it cuts to a chair and clearing it like Tony Hawk.

01:37:08

And I have no explanation why this was, like, is this what TV interviews were like back then? Like, I can't imagine some like, that's, like, being, like, Donald Trump, like, is it true you could win an arm wrestling match against anyone? He's, like, well, rolls up his sleeve.

And I have no explanation why this was, like, is this what TV interviews were like back then? Like, I can't imagine some like, that's, like, being, like, Donald Trump, like, is it true you could win an arm wrestling match against anyone? He's, like, well, rolls up his sleeve.

01:37:21

It's like punch the punch the Dude, I'm watching this video, by the way. The it's not that impressive. It's that big chair. Don't think you could jump over a chair. He's such a nerdy,

It's like punch the punch the Dude, I'm watching this video, by the way. The it's not that impressive. It's that big chair. Don't think you could jump over a chair. He's such a nerdy,

01:37:32

nurdy shrimpy guy. He's actually five eleven.

nurdy shrimpy guy. He's actually five eleven.

01:37:35

But, like, there's this slide. He doesn't look pressure that he can jump over that

But, like, there's this slide. He doesn't look pressure that he can jump over that

01:37:38

Yeah. Yeah. Dude, he takes a step. I bet you could jump over chair, bro. You need a chair? I'll give you a chair. We'll jump this chair. I wanna recreate this scene. Oh, we'll put it on our YouTube. I don't think I could jump over this chair. And I was, like, I I I played basketball. I think I've I was I would in my head, I'm more athletic than Bill Gates, but, honestly, I can't claim that until I do this chair. Oh, no, man. He's probably only thirty five in this video. I think you could jump in there. He's gonna turn thirty five next week. It's perfect. Me versus Bill Gates head to head, pay per view, we gotta do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Dude, he takes a step. I bet you could jump over chair, bro. You need a chair? I'll give you a chair. We'll jump this chair. I wanna recreate this scene. Oh, we'll put it on our YouTube. I don't think I could jump over this chair. And I was, like, I I I played basketball. I think I've I was I would in my head, I'm more athletic than Bill Gates, but, honestly, I can't claim that until I do this chair. Oh, no, man. He's probably only thirty five in this video. I think you could jump in there. He's gonna turn thirty five next week. It's perfect. Me versus Bill Gates head to head, pay per view, we gotta do it.

01:38:08

Martin, thanks for doing this, man. We appreciate it. We,

Martin, thanks for doing this, man. We appreciate it. We,

01:38:11

I know that, like, I don't I won't out you, but I know that you've got, like, some anonymous accounts online. Normally, we say Where can people find you? But for you, you get banned every, like, third week, so it's not that useful. And we were like, is are we even talking to the real Martin? It's even gonna come? Like, what is the we weren't even sure if we were talking to the right guy. The, interesting thing about that is I think the world's changing quite a bit. Like, like, the sensitivity of banning people on Twitter, has now given away. So I'm actually starting to talk to Twitter. I'm still leaving my old Twitter account as at mortinscrelli.

I know that, like, I don't I won't out you, but I know that you've got, like, some anonymous accounts online. Normally, we say Where can people find you? But for you, you get banned every, like, third week, so it's not that useful. And we were like, is are we even talking to the real Martin? It's even gonna come? Like, what is the we weren't even sure if we were talking to the right guy. The, interesting thing about that is I think the world's changing quite a bit. Like, like, the sensitivity of banning people on Twitter, has now given away. So I'm actually starting to talk to Twitter. I'm still leaving my old Twitter account as at mortinscrelli.

01:38:43

It's

It's

01:38:44

In the process, hopefully, being on band, but any anybody that could help me get that on band, I'd I'd really appreciate it.

In the process, hopefully, being on band, but any anybody that could help me get that on band, I'd I'd really appreciate it.

01:38:51

Right now, I'm at mardi underscore Catboy, which that ex girlfriend made for me, which,

Right now, I'm at mardi underscore Catboy, which that ex girlfriend made for me, which,

01:38:56

you know, has stuck for some reason. Not my crowd is Twitter handle. And, on Instagram on March, it's currently fifteen. But, yeah, I I love social media, but, you know, getting banned from I'm banned from Tinder and hinge and, you know, like, so many odd, you know, social medias,

you know, has stuck for some reason. Not my crowd is Twitter handle. And, on Instagram on March, it's currently fifteen. But, yeah, I I love social media, but, you know, getting banned from I'm banned from Tinder and hinge and, you know, like, so many odd, you know, social medias,

01:39:11

on YouTube. But you're banned from Tinder. Why? I don't know. I think, like, part of it is this,

on YouTube. But you're banned from Tinder. Why? I don't know. I think, like, part of it is this,

01:39:16

That's, like, the definition of a cock block. Right? Like,

That's, like, the definition of a cock block. Right? Like,

01:39:19

they just banned you from dating What's going on? I I think this cancel canceled culture, like, extends into virtually anything. Right? And,

they just banned you from dating What's going on? I I think this cancel canceled culture, like, extends into virtually anything. Right? And,

01:39:28

for Tinder, it's it's,

for Tinder, it's it's,

01:39:30

you know, you can argue that, like, well, how do we know it's the real person? Right? That that's sort of one argument.

you know, you can argue that, like, well, how do we know it's the real person? Right? That that's sort of one argument.

01:39:36

But even then, like, I just think there's somebody at the match group that just didn't like me.

But even then, like, I just think there's somebody at the match group that just didn't like me.

01:39:40

But, you know, it is what it is.

But, you know, it is what it is.

01:39:43

I'll live. But, yeah, Tim Twitter is,

I'll live. But, yeah, Tim Twitter is,

01:39:45

is, like, this my lifelong goal is to get on Dan from Twitter. Because it's been seven years. And I actually went to jail for shoulder period and pine than I've been in Twitter jail. So, like, you know, I I I was banned, went to prison, came out, I'm still banned. Well, you didn't you get banned? You, like, asked somebody to get you a lock of Hillary Clinton's hair. Wasn't that the the reason why? It wasn't that. It was it was I was teasing this woman who who I was he was, like, this very left wing journalist, and I was kind of, like, ribbing her a little bit over twelve politics and stuff like that. And and apparently I went too far, but, like, it was obviously, you know, selective bias. I mean, it was, like, insanely selective for a lifetime ban. You know? It was a joke. I made about her her husband or something, and it was just, like, too far.

is, like, this my lifelong goal is to get on Dan from Twitter. Because it's been seven years. And I actually went to jail for shoulder period and pine than I've been in Twitter jail. So, like, you know, I I I was banned, went to prison, came out, I'm still banned. Well, you didn't you get banned? You, like, asked somebody to get you a lock of Hillary Clinton's hair. Wasn't that the the reason why? It wasn't that. It was it was I was teasing this woman who who I was he was, like, this very left wing journalist, and I was kind of, like, ribbing her a little bit over twelve politics and stuff like that. And and apparently I went too far, but, like, it was obviously, you know, selective bias. I mean, it was, like, insanely selective for a lifetime ban. You know? It was a joke. I made about her her husband or something, and it was just, like, too far.

01:40:29

And it's, like, look, words are in that dangerous. You know? They're Did I nobody's getting hurt by these words, you know, and and they're going back and forth. It's a two way street, you know, but it you know, what I did was way too over the line and what she did was totally fine. You know? It was just this, like, insane,

And it's, like, look, words are in that dangerous. You know? They're Did I nobody's getting hurt by these words, you know, and and they're going back and forth. It's a two way street, you know, but it you know, what I did was way too over the line and what she did was totally fine. You know? It was just this, like, insane,

01:40:46

perspective. So I'm hoping Yvonne or somebody can get me unbanned because it's been seven years, and I was skyrocketing with followers and views. And that's the thing about cancel culture. Right? You have somebody who's taking off their narrative is is boosting. They're improving I was approving my reputation. Deroprim was starting to look like the rearview nerve.

perspective. So I'm hoping Yvonne or somebody can get me unbanned because it's been seven years, and I was skyrocketing with followers and views. And that's the thing about cancel culture. Right? You have somebody who's taking off their narrative is is boosting. They're improving I was approving my reputation. Deroprim was starting to look like the rearview nerve.

01:41:04

I was moving on. The controversy was over. A revenue was doing fine. And then,

I was moving on. The controversy was over. A revenue was doing fine. And then,

01:41:09

you know, Twitter said, no. Can't get what you keep going. Right? And it's like, If you try to stop people from, like, taking back their narrative and you you you could halt them like that, it's a very dangerous thing for tech to be able to censor people like that. Like, imagine having somebody become really controversial and say, no, I wanna tell my side of the story and somebody says, no, you don't get that chance. You know, it's kind of a disgusting thing.

you know, Twitter said, no. Can't get what you keep going. Right? And it's like, If you try to stop people from, like, taking back their narrative and you you you could halt them like that, it's a very dangerous thing for tech to be able to censor people like that. Like, imagine having somebody become really controversial and say, no, I wanna tell my side of the story and somebody says, no, you don't get that chance. You know, it's kind of a disgusting thing.

01:41:31

Well, dude, we appreciate this, man. You're and you're a fascinating person, and we hope that, I imagine we'll be talking more,

Well, dude, we appreciate this, man. You're and you're a fascinating person, and we hope that, I imagine we'll be talking more,

01:41:38

I'm very curious to see how doctor doctor Gupta is gonna do.

I'm very curious to see how doctor doctor Gupta is gonna do.

01:41:42

But thank you for for coming and doing this. We were, like I said, we were, like, I'm not sure if he's coming or not. We're not we're it was fifty fifty chance, so I'm happy we made this happen, and we appreciate you. Thank you so much, guys. Alright. We'll talk soon. Awesome.

But thank you for for coming and doing this. We were, like I said, we were, like, I'm not sure if he's coming or not. We're not we're it was fifty fifty chance, so I'm happy we made this happen, and we appreciate you. Thank you so much, guys. Alright. We'll talk soon. Awesome.

01:41:55

That's it. That's the pun.

That's it. That's the pun.

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