00:07

Why did you do an agency? So me and Sam always talk about, like,

Why did you do an agency? So me and Sam always talk about, like,

00:11

we have many models on this podcast.

we have many models on this podcast.

00:14

For example, we don't do public math.

For example, we don't do public math.

00:17

For example,

For example,

00:18

you don't say you're rich. You say you're post economic.

you don't say you're rich. You say you're post economic.

00:21

These are things we've picked up from from along the way. And one of the one of the model one of the models that we say is,

These are things we've picked up from from along the way. And one of the one of the model one of the models that we say is,

00:27

you know, agency suck.

you know, agency suck.

00:29

And, it's like and and and the reason we say it's not because

And, it's like and and and the reason we say it's not because

00:33

they,

they,

00:35

like, they do well. There's not that they suck. It's like they suck as a business choice. Like, if I could I have always thought if I could choose between soft or an agency had to use software because it's like, oh, it's not a services business. It's gonna work while I sleep, and it could scale up. And I I don't have to open up offices and Pol ended Brazil and all these other places.

like, they do well. There's not that they suck. It's like they suck as a business choice. Like, if I could I have always thought if I could choose between soft or an agency had to use software because it's like, oh, it's not a services business. It's gonna work while I sleep, and it could scale up. And I I don't have to open up offices and Pol ended Brazil and all these other places.

00:52

But you chose that. You did software and you chose agency now.

But you chose that. You did software and you chose agency now.

00:56

Why'd you make that choice And what's great about agencies that I'm

Why'd you make that choice And what's great about agencies that I'm

01:01

kind of like not giving enough credit for?

kind of like not giving enough credit for?

01:04

So you you're looking at business as in software is more scalable, it's more desirable by public markets, EX HubSpot versus,

So you you're looking at business as in software is more scalable, it's more desirable by public markets, EX HubSpot versus,

01:13

Accenture.

Accenture.

01:14

Accenture has

Accenture has

01:15

way worse multiples

way worse multiples

01:17

than HubSpot. Accenture is a bigger company from a revenue EBITDA standpoint,

than HubSpot. Accenture is a bigger company from a revenue EBITDA standpoint,

01:21

but now take a different approach. Okay. HubSpot's we can trade companies. You guys are both HubSpot employees. I'm assuming still. Is that correct?

but now take a different approach. Okay. HubSpot's we can trade companies. You guys are both HubSpot employees. I'm assuming still. Is that correct?

01:29

Kinda.

Kinda.

01:30

Sure. Well, whatever your guys' deal is. Right? You guys are pretty much at hub song. Now imagine creating a business and you don't plan on going public. You don't care for the limelight. You don't care for any of that. In business,

Sure. Well, whatever your guys' deal is. Right? You guys are pretty much at hub song. Now imagine creating a business and you don't plan on going public. You don't care for the limelight. You don't care for any of that. In business,

01:43

What's a successful business?

What's a successful business?

01:45

Good revenue growth and good revenue and profitability.

Good revenue growth and good revenue and profitability.

01:48

Right?

Right?

01:49

That really matters at the end of the day whether you grow or not grow is how profitable are you? Would you guys agree with that statement? Assuming you're doing something that's ethical and you're not selling drugs? No. I wouldn't agree with that. I would say there's a third thing which is, like, is this enjoyable and, like, do I like my day to day? And with the more people you have,

That really matters at the end of the day whether you grow or not grow is how profitable are you? Would you guys agree with that statement? Assuming you're doing something that's ethical and you're not selling drugs? No. I wouldn't agree with that. I would say there's a third thing which is, like, is this enjoyable and, like, do I like my day to day? And with the more people you have,

02:08

most people would say that's just a little bit more headache,

most people would say that's just a little bit more headache,

02:12

than

than

02:13

than But that's not false or consulting. Anytime you build a big company, you tend to have a large amount of people, whether it's HubSpot or whether it's Accenture, everyone has a lot. Yeah. But you can have you can probably have a much higher revenue per employee with software

than But that's not false or consulting. Anytime you build a big company, you tend to have a large amount of people, whether it's HubSpot or whether it's Accenture, everyone has a lot. Yeah. But you can have you can probably have a much higher revenue per employee with software

02:28

versus let's say you own a massive landscaping business. You're gonna have to have tens of thousands of people. But but what's the difference from dealing with? How many people does Huxville have, like, six thousand? I don't know. Five thousand, six thousand? It's probably a lot. I'm guessing on the number. But what's the difference of dealing with? Five thousand or six thousand people and twenty thousand people. There's a point where it doesn't matter, and there's a lot of people either way. Like, it's not like you're at fifty people. You still have thousands of employees to deal with and you need managers and layers and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But you're hiring a some

versus let's say you own a massive landscaping business. You're gonna have to have tens of thousands of people. But but what's the difference from dealing with? How many people does Huxville have, like, six thousand? I don't know. Five thousand, six thousand? It's probably a lot. I'm guessing on the number. But what's the difference of dealing with? Five thousand or six thousand people and twenty thousand people. There's a point where it doesn't matter, and there's a lot of people either way. Like, it's not like you're at fifty people. You still have thousands of employees to deal with and you need managers and layers and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But you're hiring a some

02:58

good or bad you're hiring a different type of person. So for example,

good or bad you're hiring a different type of person. So for example,

03:02

if you're Vayner media, they're based in New York. They can probably only afford to pay some of their lower level employees seventy or eighty thousand dollars a year. And so you just have to get a ton of people like that and have to have higher churn versus say a bigger company where you're able to pay a significantly higher salary because the revenue per employee is is much higher. So

if you're Vayner media, they're based in New York. They can probably only afford to pay some of their lower level employees seventy or eighty thousand dollars a year. And so you just have to get a ton of people like that and have to have higher churn versus say a bigger company where you're able to pay a significantly higher salary because the revenue per employee is is much higher. So

03:22

Perhaps there's a a slightly different day to day with because of that. Not necessarily.

Perhaps there's a a slightly different day to day with because of that. Not necessarily.

03:27

Let's say you're a vayner media, he could be doing it to optimize profit. One was if I told you his LTV was six, seven, eight years.

Let's say you're a vayner media, he could be doing it to optimize profit. One was if I told you his LTV was six, seven, eight years.

03:34

Right? And you have to have a higher discount.

Right? And you have to have a higher discount.

03:36

Then at that point, you can still hire high all the people and pay my arm and a leg.

Then at that point, you can still hire high all the people and pay my arm and a leg.

03:41

Okay. You got what I mean. Right? Like, you look at Accenture.

Okay. You got what I mean. Right? Like, you look at Accenture.

03:44

They're charging accounts so much money in their contract are long, and I don't know what Vayner media's LTV is, but there's a lot of consulting companies that have LTVs of six, seven years for clients.

They're charging accounts so much money in their contract are long, and I don't know what Vayner media's LTV is, but there's a lot of consulting companies that have LTVs of six, seven years for clients.

03:55

And their clients are spending, you know, a hub spot. Yes. There's more revenue per. You can say potentially in software. You can get to more revenue per employee. But I know consulting companies that only take on contracts that are, like, five, six million dollars and upwards.

And their clients are spending, you know, a hub spot. Yes. There's more revenue per. You can say potentially in software. You can get to more revenue per employee. But I know consulting companies that only take on contracts that are, like, five, six million dollars and upwards.

04:08

So you have high margins and you can have a high revenue per employee. But

So you have high margins and you can have a high revenue per employee. But

04:14

either way, no matter what, as you build a big business, you're going to need more people. It's a headache to manage, whether you pay him seventy thousand or whether you pay him a hundred and fifty thousand. It's still more of a headache. And the notion that if you hire someone for a hundred and fifty I'm not saying you're saying this, it doesn't necessarily mean they're a better employee. Right? No. It just means different types of headaches.

either way, no matter what, as you build a big business, you're going to need more people. It's a headache to manage, whether you pay him seventy thousand or whether you pay him a hundred and fifty thousand. It's still more of a headache. And the notion that if you hire someone for a hundred and fifty I'm not saying you're saying this, it doesn't necessarily mean they're a better employee. Right? No. It just means different types of headaches.

04:35

Correct. Exactly. Engineers, for all example, are very expensive in this economy. Right? So

Correct. Exactly. Engineers, for all example, are very expensive in this economy. Right? So

04:41

the point I'm getting at is a consulting company had the demand for it. A lot of people wanted to pay me for marketing.

the point I'm getting at is a consulting company had the demand for it. A lot of people wanted to pay me for marketing.

04:47

And there was just so much demand. It would have been silly not to do. And if I'm not trying to go public or I'm not trying to sell,

And there was just so much demand. It would have been silly not to do. And if I'm not trying to go public or I'm not trying to sell,

04:53

Money's money. Green is green as long as you're happy doing what you're doing.

Money's money. Green is green as long as you're happy doing what you're doing.

04:57

Take the cash. Will you ever sell the company?

Take the cash. Will you ever sell the company?

05:01

I wanna say I would never sell the company, but I don't care to ever sell the company because I love what I'm doing. We also have good grow too. Right? Like, I don't know what will grow this year,

I wanna say I would never sell the company, but I don't care to ever sell the company because I love what I'm doing. We also have good grow too. Right? Like, I don't know what will grow this year,

05:10

sixty something percent, which is a bad,

sixty something percent, which is a bad,

05:13

you know, with the market going up and down and fluctuating sixty something percent is my guess at our size is decent. Yeah. The part I was actually talking about was a little bit more, like, I think you're you're totally right that, like, If you're gonna win big, you're gonna end up with a bunch of employees. And, like, you know, it might look like a hundred fifty. It might look like a thousand. It might look ten thousand, but, like, you know, in either case, you're gonna have managerial work and headaches and it's just different types.

you know, with the market going up and down and fluctuating sixty something percent is my guess at our size is decent. Yeah. The part I was actually talking about was a little bit more, like, I think you're you're totally right that, like, If you're gonna win big, you're gonna end up with a bunch of employees. And, like, you know, it might look like a hundred fifty. It might look like a thousand. It might look ten thousand, but, like, you know, in either case, you're gonna have managerial work and headaches and it's just different types.

05:37

The part I was really talking about was, like, You know, I've now built, let's say, a media company content. And then it's, like,

The part I was really talking about was, like, You know, I've now built, let's say, a media company content. And then it's, like,

05:44

done educational stuff, so courses, which are, like, you know, different thing. And then there's, like, a built software company. And, you know, we ended up selling that one. And then it's like and then there's,

done educational stuff, so courses, which are, like, you know, different thing. And then there's, like, a built software company. And, you know, we ended up selling that one. And then it's like and then there's,

05:55

services, which is like client services, like, with, like, consulting or agency model.

services, which is like client services, like, with, like, consulting or agency model.

05:59

And what I hate what I what I love about content media is it's actually pretty fun to create, and it's cool because a lot of people consume it. So they kinda you know, you get that, like, hit.

And what I hate what I what I love about content media is it's actually pretty fun to create, and it's cool because a lot of people consume it. So they kinda you know, you get that, like, hit.

06:08

But you gotta, like, you gotta bake the cake every day. Right? So, like, you know, the hustle or, like, the milk road or this podcast, like, We have to come on and create the content again, you know, for the most part. We we're not doing, like, super long evergreen stuff.

But you gotta, like, you gotta bake the cake every day. Right? So, like, you know, the hustle or, like, the milk road or this podcast, like, We have to come on and create the content again, you know, for the most part. We we're not doing, like, super long evergreen stuff.

06:22

So, you know, like, with the hustles of daily news that are milk roads, daily news that are it's we gotta bake that cake every day. Whereas software, it was like, we built one product. And, yes, we might we will improve it over the course of a year, you know, every year, we're gonna improve it. But, like, fundamentally,

So, you know, like, with the hustles of daily news that are milk roads, daily news that are it's we gotta bake that cake every day. Whereas software, it was like, we built one product. And, yes, we might we will improve it over the course of a year, you know, every year, we're gonna improve it. But, like, fundamentally,

06:38

We didn't have to, like, recreate the product, come up with a new viral story or a new great content segment,

We didn't have to, like, recreate the product, come up with a new viral story or a new great content segment,

06:43

that would, like, require, like, a new genius. With software, it's like you come up with one genius moment, and then you sort of refine it, make it work better over time and get rid of bugs and things like that. So I preferred that part of software, which was like making a product rather than making kind of like a disposable

that would, like, require, like, a new genius. With software, it's like you come up with one genius moment, and then you sort of refine it, make it work better over time and get rid of bugs and things like that. So I preferred that part of software, which was like making a product rather than making kind of like a disposable

06:57

you know, consumable piece of content or, like, I have a e commerce company. And, like, it's a pain that he has to have supply physical products that are supply chain,

you know, consumable piece of content or, like, I have a e commerce company. And, like, it's a pain that he has to have supply physical products that are supply chain,

07:04

constrained. And, like, we have a warehouse. We got warehouse problems with our e commerce business. And so I'm like, man, digital is sweet compared to e commerce. Ecommerce is quite profitable. It kicks off a bunch of profits. That's nice. So every business has these pros and cons, and I always thought agency was like,

constrained. And, like, we have a warehouse. We got warehouse problems with our e commerce business. And so I'm like, man, digital is sweet compared to e commerce. Ecommerce is quite profitable. It kicks off a bunch of profits. That's nice. So every business has these pros and cons, and I always thought agency was like,

07:20

The part I always thought was a pain in the ass was like the client services. You are reinventing the next campaign and the next winning, marketing, you know, formula for them. And you have to keep clients happy all the time and clients are sort of, like, never satisfied in a way that, like, if software is, like, you can have nameless, faceless customers that, like, yeah, some percentage of them will write it to your help desk that's in the Philippines or whatever. But, like, you're not having to, like, you know, send account reports to your, you know, your your big client to keep them happy.

The part I always thought was a pain in the ass was like the client services. You are reinventing the next campaign and the next winning, marketing, you know, formula for them. And you have to keep clients happy all the time and clients are sort of, like, never satisfied in a way that, like, if software is, like, you can have nameless, faceless customers that, like, yeah, some percentage of them will write it to your help desk that's in the Philippines or whatever. But, like, you're not having to, like, you know, send account reports to your, you know, your your big client to keep them happy.

07:48

Yeah. But you everyone has their own problems. In software, a lot of people have churn to this issue and they can't figure it out. Or they have competitors who come into the marketplace and just undercut them on for the same features because it's cheaper and cheaper to build software these days. Right? So they all have their own problem. To me, I look at it as If you can find the right people, so every time I start a company, I find them people to put in place that have already done it multiple times before because your risk of failure are lower.

Yeah. But you everyone has their own problems. In software, a lot of people have churn to this issue and they can't figure it out. Or they have competitors who come into the marketplace and just undercut them on for the same features because it's cheaper and cheaper to build software these days. Right? So they all have their own problem. To me, I look at it as If you can find the right people, so every time I start a company, I find them people to put in place that have already done it multiple times before because your risk of failure are lower.

08:14

And they already know everything to do. So I don't have to deal with client relationships. I don't have to deal with customer service or anything like that. I get to do what I enjoy doing. Which is go and create content, be the face, etcetera. And, my wife enjoys what she gets to do. Right? She gets to donate the money, although don't really consider it as donations. We look at it as investing. We're investing in people, although we really don't ever collect any money back. It's more so you're investing into making the world a better place or people's lives a better place or whatever it may be.

And they already know everything to do. So I don't have to deal with client relationships. I don't have to deal with customer service or anything like that. I get to do what I enjoy doing. Which is go and create content, be the face, etcetera. And, my wife enjoys what she gets to do. Right? She gets to donate the money, although don't really consider it as donations. We look at it as investing. We're investing in people, although we really don't ever collect any money back. It's more so you're investing into making the world a better place or people's lives a better place or whatever it may be.

08:44

What's a hoo hoover

What's a hoo hoover

08:46

Who were your first three clients

Who were your first three clients

08:49

at this at this agent? Because you I don't know. They were small companies.

at this at this agent? Because you I don't know. They were small companies.

08:54

And right now, who's an example client?

And right now, who's an example client?

08:59

Like

Like

09:00

a Fortune one hundred software company.

a Fortune one hundred software company.

09:04

Like, that is a typical company. A think of any big large corporation in b to b. That's a great example of one of our customers or even b to c actually think of any Fortune five hundred company. That's a prime example of a customer.

Like, that is a typical company. A think of any big large corporation in b to b. That's a great example of one of our customers or even b to c actually think of any Fortune five hundred company. That's a prime example of a customer.

09:16

What's, and who's the CEO of your agency? Are you?

What's, and who's the CEO of your agency? Are you?

09:20

No. I'm never the CEO. I'm a terrible manager. I'm one of the worst managers ever.

No. I'm never the CEO. I'm a terrible manager. I'm one of the worst managers ever.

09:25

His name is Mike Gullkson. He was the CEO. No. He was the president of Iprospect,

His name is Mike Gullkson. He was the CEO. No. He was the president of Iprospect,

09:31

which is a ad agency owned by,

which is a ad agency owned by,

09:34

Dentsu.

Dentsu.

09:35

I believe in I prospect maybe they had four or five thousand people is my guess.

I believe in I prospect maybe they had four or five thousand people is my guess.

09:40

And what when you how early into the business did you have a a higher CEO or hired leader.

And what when you how early into the business did you have a a higher CEO or hired leader.

09:46

Day one. I won't start a business without a CEO from day one. And what did you pay them in the first year?

Day one. I won't start a business without a CEO from day one. And what did you pay them in the first year?

09:53

First year was my co founder for, like, a hundred grand.

First year was my co founder for, like, a hundred grand.

09:56

And that's because you basically went and drummed up a hundred grand worth of business. And you're, like, hey, Mike, I gotta I gotta this client said to give a hundred grand. Do you wanna run this thing for me and and help it get deployed?

And that's because you basically went and drummed up a hundred grand worth of business. And you're, like, hey, Mike, I gotta I gotta this client said to give a hundred grand. Do you wanna run this thing for me and and help it get deployed?

10:08

No.

No.

10:09

Our business didn't start off that way. I probably put in total of five million bucks into the business of my own money. So it was bootstrap, but not really bootstrap, if that makes sense. Kind of cheating.

Our business didn't start off that way. I probably put in total of five million bucks into the business of my own money. So it was bootstrap, but not really bootstrap, if that makes sense. Kind of cheating.

10:20

And it gets easier and easier as your entrepreneur. Right? The more the more success this you have, and I'm not saying I'm successful by any means. The more capital you have to deploy into the next thing so reduces chances of,

And it gets easier and easier as your entrepreneur. Right? The more the more success this you have, and I'm not saying I'm successful by any means. The more capital you have to deploy into the next thing so reduces chances of,

10:31

failure. And when it's your own money, this is just my

failure. And when it's your own money, this is just my

10:35

thesis, and I could be wrong on this. I have no data points. When it's your own money, you're much more careful than when you you raise, like, fifteen, twenty, thirty million dollars of venture capital. Right? You really look at every single dollar.

thesis, and I could be wrong on this. I have no data points. When it's your own money, you're much more careful than when you you raise, like, fifteen, twenty, thirty million dollars of venture capital. Right? You really look at every single dollar.

10:47

But Mike was the CEO from day one. He's a great operator, has no agency experience eventually we got in a president, and then eventually from there, we got in a CEO.

But Mike was the CEO from day one. He's a great operator, has no agency experience eventually we got in a president, and then eventually from there, we got in a CEO.

10:59

And have you guys crossed a hundred million in revenue yet?

And have you guys crossed a hundred million in revenue yet?

11:02

Yeah. We do nine figures.

Yeah. We do nine figures.

11:04

That's crazy, man. So well, I mean, that's just pretty wild that you're able to, like, parlay

That's crazy, man. So well, I mean, that's just pretty wild that you're able to, like, parlay

11:11

this blog. That was already all always kind of a juggernaut, but this blog into a

this blog. That was already all always kind of a juggernaut, but this blog into a

11:16

nine figure a year business. I mean, that's amazing.

nine figure a year business. I mean, that's amazing.

11:20

No. This is it's been a good run. I hope that I'm knocking on wood, although you probably can't hear because of Chris, but,

No. This is it's been a good run. I hope that I'm knocking on wood, although you probably can't hear because of Chris, but,

11:27

I I hope it keeps going. And more so we're just having fun. Like, for me, what I enjoy doing is building a business.

I I hope it keeps going. And more so we're just having fun. Like, for me, what I enjoy doing is building a business.

11:35

I know I have a expensive lifestyle. I generally don't do stuff for the money. Like, I overpay, like, house staff, like nannies and stuff like that. When I say overpay, I drastically overpay, not by, like, ten, twenty, thirty, forty percent. Like, I really mean drastically overpay because I look at people and I'm like, if you're cleaning a house, are you gonna live on this? Like, I'll give someone six figures to do that. I know that sounds kinda crazy or stupid, but, like, I'm not giving my kids money. So might as well take care of other people in this world who need it more than,

I know I have a expensive lifestyle. I generally don't do stuff for the money. Like, I overpay, like, house staff, like nannies and stuff like that. When I say overpay, I drastically overpay, not by, like, ten, twenty, thirty, forty percent. Like, I really mean drastically overpay because I look at people and I'm like, if you're cleaning a house, are you gonna live on this? Like, I'll give someone six figures to do that. I know that sounds kinda crazy or stupid, but, like, I'm not giving my kids money. So might as well take care of other people in this world who need it more than,

12:04

but we do.

but we do.

12:20

In the private business, it's easy to fall into forcing sales. But HubSpot helps us treat our valued customers like people,

In the private business, it's easy to fall into forcing sales. But HubSpot helps us treat our valued customers like people,

12:27

build conquests.

build conquests.

12:29

Susan.

Susan.

12:30

How's your tavern? I brought you a case of wrong.

How's your tavern? I brought you a case of wrong.

12:34

Hubspot, grow better.

Hubspot, grow better.

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