00:00

When I saw you went and did the watch site, a Hodenky,

When I saw you went and did the watch site, a Hodenky,

00:04

first of all, Sean, have you ever read that? Like, when I when I heard I was like, A blog. I I like watches. I have Rolex's. It's like a blog for luxury watches.

first of all, Sean, have you ever read that? Like, when I when I heard I was like, A blog. I I like watches. I have Rolex's. It's like a blog for luxury watches.

00:13

What the hell is this guy thinking? Did you did you just say that it went from like, a million or two in revenue. And now it's Sam said it's over a hundred million.

What the hell is this guy thinking? Did you did you just say that it went from like, a million or two in revenue. And now it's Sam said it's over a hundred million.

00:23

Yeah. Yeah. We're over a hundred million in revenue Man, that is wild.

Yeah. Yeah. We're over a hundred million in revenue Man, that is wild.

00:33

What's up? Alright. In this episode, we are sitting down with Kevin Rose. A lot of you know Kevin because he's an internet o g. He created Dig back in the day. He was a seed investor in Twitter and a bunch of other cool companies. He was been a he's been a VC, he's been a founder. He launched a recently launched a NFT project that's done hundreds of millions of dollars and a T sales. And so, Kevin's has been around for a while. And the cool part of the interview, if you if you listen to it, you're gonna see

What's up? Alright. In this episode, we are sitting down with Kevin Rose. A lot of you know Kevin because he's an internet o g. He created Dig back in the day. He was a seed investor in Twitter and a bunch of other cool companies. He was been a he's been a VC, he's been a founder. He launched a recently launched a NFT project that's done hundreds of millions of dollars and a T sales. And so, Kevin's has been around for a while. And the cool part of the interview, if you if you listen to it, you're gonna see

00:59

very chill guy, very,

very chill guy, very,

01:01

down to earth, very humble, and,

down to earth, very humble, and,

01:05

not a kind of like

not a kind of like

01:07

Oh my god. I'm gonna go take over the world, you know, bubbling over with ambition and a big chip on his shoulder. Seemed like a happy dude who was enjoying himself. And had a ton of success in the process. And I like that. I like seeing diff people who play the game with different and different ways. And he's definitely somebody who's interested. We talked about

Oh my god. I'm gonna go take over the world, you know, bubbling over with ambition and a big chip on his shoulder. Seemed like a happy dude who was enjoying himself. And had a ton of success in the process. And I like that. I like seeing diff people who play the game with different and different ways. And he's definitely somebody who's interested. We talked about

01:24

a bunch of those projects that you may not know about. So, for example, is creating watchville. This niche project for watches that grew from one million in revenue to now over a hundred million after it got acquired and merged with Hodinke.

a bunch of those projects that you may not know about. So, for example, is creating watchville. This niche project for watches that grew from one million in revenue to now over a hundred million after it got acquired and merged with Hodinke.

01:37

Then also we talked about how he hires writers. We talked about,

Then also we talked about how he hires writers. We talked about,

01:42

you know, how he got into Twitter as an early investor. And what does he do with his money? So he's got a bunch of money.

you know, how he got into Twitter as an early investor. And what does he do with his money? So he's got a bunch of money.

01:48

How does he invest it? Where does he put it? And, it's the answer's not not what you may have expected.

How does he invest it? Where does he put it? And, it's the answer's not not what you may have expected.

01:53

The last thing we did at the end is we did the crypto debate. So Sam is sort of a, a crypto skeptic, Kevin is obviously a crypto believer and one of the kind of most well known guys in the crypto scene. And, we had a little where we talked about, is it all bullshit or are there some use cases? So, hope you enjoy this episode with Kevin Rose.

The last thing we did at the end is we did the crypto debate. So Sam is sort of a, a crypto skeptic, Kevin is obviously a crypto believer and one of the kind of most well known guys in the crypto scene. And, we had a little where we talked about, is it all bullshit or are there some use cases? So, hope you enjoy this episode with Kevin Rose.

02:13

I liked it. I think he will too.

I liked it. I think he will too.

02:15

We should give, like, a brief overview overview, but, like, your resume we don't really talk too much about, like, resumes and stuff, but your resume is, like, crazy long. So

We should give, like, a brief overview overview, but, like, your resume we don't really talk too much about, like, resumes and stuff, but your resume is, like, crazy long. So

02:25

I've been following you forever. So I've known about your work. So you started dig, which was

I've been following you forever. So I've known about your work. So you started dig, which was

02:30

when did you start at an o four? Two thousand four. That's right. Yeah. And so you were it was like one of the original, like, site, like, link aggregators, and it was like a cultural phenomenon, and that was crazy. And you were like, Was it time magazine that you're on the cover of, like, you know Business week. Business week. It was like, here's this young kid taking over Silicon Valley. What's the internet? And who's this kid controlling it? Type of thing.

when did you start at an o four? Two thousand four. That's right. Yeah. And so you were it was like one of the original, like, site, like, link aggregators, and it was like a cultural phenomenon, and that was crazy. And you were like, Was it time magazine that you're on the cover of, like, you know Business week. Business week. It was like, here's this young kid taking over Silicon Valley. What's the internet? And who's this kid controlling it? Type of thing.

02:51

And, like, the it had all this hype, but, like, dig didn't turn out maybe as wonderful as, like, we we all thought maybe it could have done. But then you, like, had your finger on the pulse of all these other things. You've done, a dig, you've done. Is it I read it all the time, but is it pronounced hoden key? Hodinkie. Yeah. Hodinkie. Yeah. Hodinkie.

And, like, the it had all this hype, but, like, dig didn't turn out maybe as wonderful as, like, we we all thought maybe it could have done. But then you, like, had your finger on the pulse of all these other things. You've done, a dig, you've done. Is it I read it all the time, but is it pronounced hoden key? Hodinkie. Yeah. Hodinkie. Yeah. Hodinkie.

03:08

A watch blog that also, like, sells watches. You're a partner at Google Ventures. You have this app called zero fasting that I use. I love. Partner at True Ventures, which I still think you're at now. You've got the,

A watch blog that also, like, sells watches. You're a partner at Google Ventures. You have this app called zero fasting that I use. I love. Partner at True Ventures, which I still think you're at now. You've got the,

03:18

you got the,

you got the,

03:19

the Oak,

the Oak,

03:21

meditation app. And then

meditation app. And then

03:23

I have a feeling there's, like, five or ten other things that you just have brewing that, like, I don't even know, like, most people probably don't even know about, but you're basically my point is is, like, you're kind of an internet o g, and

I have a feeling there's, like, five or ten other things that you just have brewing that, like, I don't even know, like, most people probably don't even know about, but you're basically my point is is, like, you're kind of an internet o g, and

03:34

you are incredibly prolific. I mean, does that kinda summarize it?

you are incredibly prolific. I mean, does that kinda summarize it?

03:38

Yeah. I mean, the the most recent thing I started was proof which is our our venture into the world of NFTs. And so that's that's the only thing, missing from from that. And that that's about,

Yeah. I mean, the the most recent thing I started was proof which is our our venture into the world of NFTs. And so that's that's the only thing, missing from from that. And that that's about,

03:49

ten months old now. So

ten months old now. So

03:51

That's on the newer side.

That's on the newer side.

03:53

So from the outside, if I look at this kind of like collection

So from the outside, if I look at this kind of like collection

03:57

of or like the career path,

of or like the career path,

03:59

it looks very random. It's like, you know, from, you know, from venture backed, to angel vesting, to venture vesting, to

it looks very random. It's like, you know, from, you know, from venture backed, to angel vesting, to venture vesting, to

04:07

kinda like niche communities,

kinda like niche communities,

04:10

you know, these, like, kind of

you know, these, like, kind of

04:12

apps that are, like, simple, like, like meditation or fasting.

apps that are, like, simple, like, like meditation or fasting.

04:16

You did podcast, you need a show, you know, you've done a bunch of content. You you did a bunch of different things. Was there a method to the madness? Is this do you just describe it as random or is there kind of like some underlying

You did podcast, you need a show, you know, you've done a bunch of content. You you did a bunch of different things. Was there a method to the madness? Is this do you just describe it as random or is there kind of like some underlying

04:26

theme to this whole thing.

theme to this whole thing.

04:29

Yeah. There's

Yeah. There's

04:30

I would say that I've always been one

I would say that I've always been one

04:33

ever since I was a little kid to just tinker and just to to play. And if there's any

ever since I was a little kid to just tinker and just to to play. And if there's any

04:39

method to the madness, it is this common thread of

method to the madness, it is this common thread of

04:43

exploration

exploration

04:44

and just wanting to if I see something that doesn't exist, that should exist, I wanna go build it. And

and just wanting to if I see something that doesn't exist, that should exist, I wanna go build it. And

04:51

I've done that a handful of times,

I've done that a handful of times,

04:53

you know, probably

you know, probably

04:56

at least ten to fifteen businesses of which, you know, ninety percent of them go to zero and then there's a few that pop and become, you know, pretty big. So,

at least ten to fifteen businesses of which, you know, ninety percent of them go to zero and then there's a few that pop and become, you know, pretty big. So,

05:06

it's just this idea that,

it's just this idea that,

05:08

don't wanna sit on the sidelines. If there's something that's exciting that needs to be built, I I'd I'd rather just spin up a team and and go after it.

don't wanna sit on the sidelines. If there's something that's exciting that needs to be built, I I'd I'd rather just spin up a team and and go after it.

05:15

Of all those projects. And I'm actually gonna exclude proof from that because,

Of all those projects. And I'm actually gonna exclude proof from that because,

05:21

I wanna talk all about that in a little while, but of all those projects that I mentioned, which one has been the most financially successful for you personally?

I wanna talk all about that in a little while, but of all those projects that I mentioned, which one has been the most financially successful for you personally?

05:30

That's a good question.

That's a good question.

05:32

Certainly, I would say

Certainly, I would say

05:35

when I was in the middle of

when I was in the middle of

05:37

web two point o, which was the the when dig was at its its peak, which was,

web two point o, which was the the when dig was at its its peak, which was,

05:45

about a two thousand

about a two thousand

05:47

early two thousand six,

early two thousand six,

05:50

You know, we're hit around thirty eight million people a month using the site. It was, you know, of the web two properties. It was one of the largest

You know, we're hit around thirty eight million people a month using the site. It was, you know, of the web two properties. It was one of the largest

05:57

It it led me to

It it led me to

06:00

sitting down and, you know, dinners and conversations and hangouts with the

sitting down and, you know, dinners and conversations and hangouts with the

06:05

you know, Jack Dorsey's and Evan Williams and Zuckerberg's and all of the household names that became these big products, and they were just friends. And so because of that,

you know, Jack Dorsey's and Evan Williams and Zuckerberg's and all of the household names that became these big products, and they were just friends. And so because of that,

06:15

It was more like, hey. Well, you know, do you wanna invest in my new thing? And and so I would say the investment side has definitely been the the best, financial returns.

It was more like, hey. Well, you know, do you wanna invest in my new thing? And and so I would say the investment side has definitely been the the best, financial returns.

06:26

I did start a media company, that

I did start a media company, that

06:31

Well, I would say there's there's two things that that well, three that are two are unrealized

Well, I would say there's there's two things that that well, three that are two are unrealized

06:37

in Hodinkee

in Hodinkee

06:40

which is is is gonna be crazy. It'll, you know, it's over a hundred million revenue a year now, which is nuts. Whoa. Really?

which is is is gonna be crazy. It'll, you know, it's over a hundred million revenue a year now, which is nuts. Whoa. Really?

06:46

And then we have

And then we have

06:49

you know,

you know,

06:50

the stuff I'm doing a proof right now, which has just been been another crazy rocket ship. But in terms of, like, true exits of businesses that I've started,

the stuff I'm doing a proof right now, which has just been been another crazy rocket ship. But in terms of, like, true exits of businesses that I've started,

06:58

Revision three,

Revision three,

06:59

where I was the co founders, a media company that became, discovery channel's digital arm And we sold that for thirty five million dollars back in,

where I was the co founders, a media company that became, discovery channel's digital arm And we sold that for thirty five million dollars back in,

07:10

two thousand and eight or something like that. So that was probably the biggest company sale that I've had.

two thousand and eight or something like that. So that was probably the biggest company sale that I've had.

07:17

But, you know, the they're much larger on the more angel investment side. And maybe that sale gave you the the ammo to do the angel to do angel investing, or would you have been able to do it without it? A bit, but

But, you know, the they're much larger on the more angel investment side. And maybe that sale gave you the the ammo to do the angel to do angel investing, or would you have been able to do it without it? A bit, but

07:29

I was already

I was already

07:31

starting to

starting to

07:33

do small investments,

do small investments,

07:35

prior to that. So I I didn't have any money. I didn't come from money.

prior to that. So I I didn't have any money. I didn't come from money.

07:39

But when Dig really took off,

But when Dig really took off,

07:42

and we were a couple years in to dig, investors, and this is a common practice. It doesn't get talked about a lot, but investors come around and they're like, hey, you know, you're doing this around the financing. Can we take a little pressure off of you as an entrepreneur and buy some of your stock per Right?

and we were a couple years in to dig, investors, and this is a common practice. It doesn't get talked about a lot, but investors come around and they're like, hey, you know, you're doing this around the financing. Can we take a little pressure off of you as an entrepreneur and buy some of your stock per Right?

07:57

And so I sold a little bit of my dig stock enough to give me the ammo to go and do small c check. You know, and put, you know, twenty five k into, you know, Twitter's seed round and and put, you know, twenty five k and or it was more into Facebook, but

And so I sold a little bit of my dig stock enough to give me the ammo to go and do small c check. You know, and put, you know, twenty five k into, you know, Twitter's seed round and and put, you know, twenty five k and or it was more into Facebook, but

08:12

they're a little bit later stage.

they're a little bit later stage.

08:14

And and so it was it was those little tiny checks that, you know, when they turn into multi billion dollar businesses, we're we're pretty meaningful. How much does twenty five k into Twitter and Facebook early on actually turn into millions of dollars?

And and so it was it was those little tiny checks that, you know, when they turn into multi billion dollar businesses, we're we're pretty meaningful. How much does twenty five k into Twitter and Facebook early on actually turn into millions of dollars?

08:28

I mean, that that math is even hard to comprehend in Twitter seed round. What was the evaluation then?

I mean, that that math is even hard to comprehend in Twitter seed round. What was the evaluation then?

08:34

Well, it was difficult because they were a podcast company

Well, it was difficult because they were a podcast company

08:38

doing podcast software, and then they

doing podcast software, and then they

08:41

they

they

08:42

did a new round. They they pivoted into Twitter. And so, oh, gosh, I'm drawing a blank on the name of the podcast. Odeo.

did a new round. They they pivoted into Twitter. And so, oh, gosh, I'm drawing a blank on the name of the podcast. Odeo.

08:49

Odeo. That's right. They were Odeo.

Odeo. That's right. They were Odeo.

08:52

So,

So,

08:54

Yeah. I didn't invest in audio. They had become Twitter,

Yeah. I didn't invest in audio. They had become Twitter,

08:57

and I asked Ev, who I was the tightest with at the time because I didn't really know Jack that well at that at yet. And I asked to have a huge CEO and I was like, you know, can I can I invest? And there was no round available at that point. They But he's like, I got this engineer that,

and I asked Ev, who I was the tightest with at the time because I didn't really know Jack that well at that at yet. And I asked to have a huge CEO and I was like, you know, can I can I invest? And there was no round available at that point. They But he's like, I got this engineer that,

09:15

Blake that was leaving

Blake that was leaving

09:17

and

and

09:18

has some stock. And was like, do you just wanna buy some of the stock? I was like, yeah, that sounds that sounds great. I'll just buy some of the stock. I think Gary Vaynerchuk said the same story, and he bought it. He bought it through.

has some stock. And was like, do you just wanna buy some of the stock? I was like, yeah, that sounds that sounds great. I'll just buy some of the stock. I think Gary Vaynerchuk said the same story, and he bought it. He bought it through.

09:27

Oh, really? Yeah. So here's the fun thing. So I bought in from Blake, and then I I told Gary that Blake was selling some.

Oh, really? Yeah. So here's the fun thing. So I bought in from Blake, and then I I told Gary that Blake was selling some.

09:35

And,

And,

09:37

Then Twitter ended up actually, they had a preemptive round come along that really, like, like, five or ten extra evaluation

Then Twitter ended up actually, they had a preemptive round come along that really, like, like, five or ten extra evaluation

09:44

And then Blake was like, oh, whoa, whoa, no. There's a new valuation now, and he charged Gary the new price. So Gary's still pissed at me because I got this, like, really cheap price for Twitter stock, you know, and then, and then Gary had to pay the more expensive price, but that was a funny little What do you think Blake's saying right now? I mean, Blake probably just lost fun. He held on to, like, half or more. And so, you know, he probably I don't know. He if I had to guess, he

And then Blake was like, oh, whoa, whoa, no. There's a new valuation now, and he charged Gary the new price. So Gary's still pissed at me because I got this, like, really cheap price for Twitter stock, you know, and then, and then Gary had to pay the more expensive price, but that was a funny little What do you think Blake's saying right now? I mean, Blake probably just lost fun. He held on to, like, half or more. And so, you know, he probably I don't know. He if I had to guess, he

10:09

made fifty plus seventy five plus million dollars or something on it. He I'm sure he's okay. Did, at the time because Twitter kinda had, like, well, There's like audio kind of failing, Twitter, who knows.

made fifty plus seventy five plus million dollars or something on it. He I'm sure he's okay. Did, at the time because Twitter kinda had, like, well, There's like audio kind of failing, Twitter, who knows.

10:21

And then there was like this like small community of people in Silicon Valley that were like using it back when it was like texting the the your updates out. Mhmm.

And then there was like this like small community of people in Silicon Valley that were like using it back when it was like texting the the your updates out. Mhmm.

10:30

Like, when you're when you were writing that check, did you feel like this is the, you know, the next big thing or was just kinda like, I don't know. My friends are smart. Let's or what where was it? I told her, like, it was the next big thing because there was I I loved so

Like, when you're when you were writing that check, did you feel like this is the, you know, the next big thing or was just kinda like, I don't know. My friends are smart. Let's or what where was it? I told her, like, it was the next big thing because there was I I loved so

10:43

as someone that was building a social graph of sorts,

as someone that was building a social graph of sorts,

10:47

at dig, you know, there was always this idea

at dig, you know, there was always this idea

10:50

back prior to, excuse me, prior to Twitter, that

back prior to, excuse me, prior to Twitter, that

10:55

was

was

10:56

bi directional friendships.

bi directional friendships.

10:57

So, you know, on my space, you you and friends, sir, and all the others that become prior to Twitter, you had to actually know the person to see their content. So it was like, I, would you like to send a friend request? Yes. Do you accept this friend request? Yes. Right? And it was like, same thing with Facebook.

So, you know, on my space, you you and friends, sir, and all the others that become prior to Twitter, you had to actually know the person to see their content. So it was like, I, would you like to send a friend request? Yes. Do you accept this friend request? Yes. Right? And it was like, same thing with Facebook.

11:12

And when Twitter came out with that model of

And when Twitter came out with that model of

11:16

just this idea of following,

just this idea of following,

11:18

and and

and and

11:20

And it allowed,

And it allowed,

11:21

like, there was no celebrities on the platform. It was like me and Leila Port and a couple others that were the top followed people on the platform at the time.

like, there was no celebrities on the platform. It was like me and Leila Port and a couple others that were the top followed people on the platform at the time.

11:29

But I I I thought to myself, like, wow, if this catches on the with the celebrity crowd, it's just gonna be insane. It's gonna be because everyone will just wanna see And also the barrier to entry,

But I I I thought to myself, like, wow, if this catches on the with the celebrity crowd, it's just gonna be insane. It's gonna be because everyone will just wanna see And also the barrier to entry,

11:40

a lot of back then, it was it was,

a lot of back then, it was it was,

11:44

it was impossible to get,

it was impossible to get,

11:46

you know, celebrities to sit down and kind of,

you know, celebrities to sit down and kind of,

11:49

do technical things because they they we didn't really have smartphones, but the fact that you could text to that number, that short code, just what you were up to, anybody can do that. It doesn't require any special software. It doesn't require you sitting in front of a computer. And so it was just so dead simple to use.

do technical things because they they we didn't really have smartphones, but the fact that you could text to that number, that short code, just what you were up to, anybody can do that. It doesn't require any special software. It doesn't require you sitting in front of a computer. And so it was just so dead simple to use.

12:07

It felt as though as I saw the tech crowd, you

It felt as though as I saw the tech crowd, you

12:10

know, kinda catching on

know, kinda catching on

12:13

it it I knew eventually it would spill outside of that, that small vertical of users into the mainstream. And if that when that would happen, that was the bet. When that would happen, if and when that would happen, that would it would it would blow up, and and it did. So that was that was awesome. And I remember I've also seen, you did a video back in the day when Square was like a prototype. It was like a YouTube video. I remember you you're like, hey, yeah, check this out. Like, you know, here's this little square and you could plug it into your phone. You could take credit card payments. You're like, and it was not even released yet. And you were like, you know, promote I think did you invest in that too? Because that would have been, like Yeah. So that's a great story. Because I hit Jack up and I was like, Hey, I heard you're doing this new credit card thing. I'd like to be an Angel investor. And he's like, oh, dude, over subscribed. I'm sorry. Like, we've closed the round, like, blah blah. And I was like, damn it. I'm like, well, let me see if I can help you in some way. And so he gave me a prototype and,

it it I knew eventually it would spill outside of that, that small vertical of users into the mainstream. And if that when that would happen, that was the bet. When that would happen, if and when that would happen, that would it would it would blow up, and and it did. So that was that was awesome. And I remember I've also seen, you did a video back in the day when Square was like a prototype. It was like a YouTube video. I remember you you're like, hey, yeah, check this out. Like, you know, here's this little square and you could plug it into your phone. You could take credit card payments. You're like, and it was not even released yet. And you were like, you know, promote I think did you invest in that too? Because that would have been, like Yeah. So that's a great story. Because I hit Jack up and I was like, Hey, I heard you're doing this new credit card thing. I'd like to be an Angel investor. And he's like, oh, dude, over subscribed. I'm sorry. Like, we've closed the round, like, blah blah. And I was like, damn it. I'm like, well, let me see if I can help you in some way. And so he gave me a prototype and,

13:06

I just went and recorded a video, and it got a lot of traction, and they got a lot of people excited about this new product, and it was like a early glimpse of what was to come.

I just went and recorded a video, and it got a lot of traction, and they got a lot of people excited about this new product, and it was like a early glimpse of what was to come.

13:15

And it started getting, you know, tens of thousands of views on on YouTube. And he calls me back, and he's like, I had an investor drop out. I've got some room. Do you wanna do you wanna put a check And so that's what got me into, to their seed round, which was which was awesome.

And it started getting, you know, tens of thousands of views on on YouTube. And he calls me back, and he's like, I had an investor drop out. I've got some room. Do you wanna do you wanna put a check And so that's what got me into, to their seed round, which was which was awesome.

13:29

What was it like? You know, I lived in San Francisco two thousand twelve up until somewhat recently Sean's still there. It's definitely a bit different now because, like, startups are are quite popular and

What was it like? You know, I lived in San Francisco two thousand twelve up until somewhat recently Sean's still there. It's definitely a bit different now because, like, startups are are quite popular and

13:39

and Jack's and Jack Dorsey is, like, basically a celebrity. Mark Zuckerberg is obviously a celebrity.

and Jack's and Jack Dorsey is, like, basically a celebrity. Mark Zuckerberg is obviously a celebrity.

13:45

What was it when back then, And, the the, you know, o four zero five zero six, you know, two thousand ten when these things were just getting going,

What was it when back then, And, the the, you know, o four zero five zero six, you know, two thousand ten when these things were just getting going,

13:53

did you actually think that a guy like Jack Dor seat was gonna be, like, this kind of, like, tighten of of industry, like, he kind of is. Like, what was it like being around some of these folks early on when they were just, you know, you guys were just messing around. Well, it was you met a lot of entrepreneurs back then, and there was it was clear there's a few people that stood out as just being,

did you actually think that a guy like Jack Dor seat was gonna be, like, this kind of, like, tighten of of industry, like, he kind of is. Like, what was it like being around some of these folks early on when they were just, you know, you guys were just messing around. Well, it was you met a lot of entrepreneurs back then, and there was it was clear there's a few people that stood out as just being,

14:13

wildly creative and and just deep thinkers. And I was really drawn to those folks. I wanted to just, like, pick their brain more and get to know them better. And so, you know,

wildly creative and and just deep thinkers. And I was really drawn to those folks. I wanted to just, like, pick their brain more and get to know them better. And so, you know,

14:24

one of the things that struck me is just how mature Mark Zuckerberg was when he was younger. Like, It was, you know, I'm I'm quite a bit older. Excuse me than he is. And,

one of the things that struck me is just how mature Mark Zuckerberg was when he was younger. Like, It was, you know, I'm I'm quite a bit older. Excuse me than he is. And,

14:35

how old is he now? He's still only, like, thirty eight.

how old is he now? He's still only, like, thirty eight.

14:38

He's younger than that. Oh my god.

He's younger than that. Oh my god.

14:41

Yeah. So how old is Mark?

Yeah. So how old is Mark?

14:44

That's oh, yeah. You're right. He is thirty eight.

That's oh, yeah. You're right. He is thirty eight.

14:47

Yeah. I mean, that's still that's still. I mean, he's thirty. So that's pretty wild. Yeah. And it it's it's it's crazy.

Yeah. I mean, that's still that's still. I mean, he's thirty. So that's pretty wild. Yeah. And it it's it's it's crazy.

14:54

He was he was really young.

He was he was really young.

14:58

So, yeah, so when I met him was two thousand and five, I wanna say. So he was twenty one.

So, yeah, so when I met him was two thousand and five, I wanna say. So he was twenty one.

15:05

Wow. So he was twenty one years old. And I remember just thinking about how put together he was and how well spoken and just what a deep thinker he was about the space, and he wasn't winging it. He was taking it very seriously.

Wow. So he was twenty one years old. And I remember just thinking about how put together he was and how well spoken and just what a deep thinker he was about the space, and he wasn't winging it. He was taking it very seriously.

15:19

And,

And,

15:20

that was That was a big, big shock to me.

that was That was a big, big shock to me.

15:23

I remember just those conversations being like, I was like, wow, for twenty one, I was definitely not as beginners.

I remember just those conversations being like, I was like, wow, for twenty one, I was definitely not as beginners.

15:29

As he was a twenty one. What what's something he said that made you made you think that?

As he was a twenty one. What what's something he said that made you made you think that?

15:35

Well, you know, one of the things that I was always,

Well, you know, one of the things that I was always,

15:39

frightened by,

frightened by,

15:40

as an entrepreneur,

as an entrepreneur,

15:42

in my in my youth was just this idea of what people take me seriously,

in my in my youth was just this idea of what people take me seriously,

15:47

and could I admit when I didn't know something.

and could I admit when I didn't know something.

15:49

And it was it was it okay to

And it was it was it okay to

15:52

I tried to hide my vulnerabilities

I tried to hide my vulnerabilities

15:55

as an entrepreneur.

as an entrepreneur.

15:56

And

And

15:57

He just came in and was asking so many pointed questions.

He just came in and was asking so many pointed questions.

16:01

And,

And,

16:03

you know, I asked him about some of his hiring and firing practices and,

you know, I asked him about some of his hiring and firing practices and,

16:08

how he would edit his team,

how he would edit his team,

16:11

how he ensured that he made the right hires

how he ensured that he made the right hires

16:13

on the engineering side because it was it was that was a very challenging thing to do back then to scale websites. You were, like, racking your own servers and, you know, the way it was in the AWSs of the world and We were talking a lot about that. And,

on the engineering side because it was it was that was a very challenging thing to do back then to scale websites. You were, like, racking your own servers and, you know, the way it was in the AWSs of the world and We were talking a lot about that. And,

16:27

it was just it was one of those things where

it was just it was one of those things where

16:29

he just told me that

he just told me that

16:32

he just you know, sir, it's the obvious stuff. You surround yourself with with people smarter than you, and then you ask a lot of questions, and you're not afraid to ask those questions. So

he just you know, sir, it's the obvious stuff. You surround yourself with with people smarter than you, and then you ask a lot of questions, and you're not afraid to ask those questions. So

16:41

You know, back then, I had some great investors

You know, back then, I had some great investors

16:44

and and board members.

and and board members.

16:46

But at times, I was a little hesitant to be like, hey, I I don't quite understand how this works. Can you help educate me? And I think it was due to my lack of, like, for some reason, I thought because I was a college dropout, that I I I had to hide that and and they would be like if I asked a question that I should have learned in college that it would have looked, had it had egg on my face and So there was a lot of,

But at times, I was a little hesitant to be like, hey, I I don't quite understand how this works. Can you help educate me? And I think it was due to my lack of, like, for some reason, I thought because I was a college dropout, that I I I had to hide that and and they would be like if I asked a question that I should have learned in college that it would have looked, had it had egg on my face and So there was a lot of,

17:10

of of nervousness around that, and and just to see Mark

of of nervousness around that, and and just to see Mark

17:13

just be so open, and just curious

just be so open, and just curious

17:17

And there was no it was clear that if he if he didn't know something he was gonna get to the bottom of it right away,

And there was no it was clear that if he if he didn't know something he was gonna get to the bottom of it right away,

17:23

it was it was inspiring.

it was it was inspiring.

17:25

I had a I I had an experience just like that when we were selling our our last company.

I had a I I had an experience just like that when we were selling our our last company.

17:30

I met with all the big companies, Facebook, Google,

I met with all the big companies, Facebook, Google,

17:35

Amazon, whatever. We also mess met with Discord.

Amazon, whatever. We also mess met with Discord.

17:38

And I go in and meet Jason, who's the CEO of Discord, and I'm, like, pitching him on, like, you know, basically,

And I go in and meet Jason, who's the CEO of Discord, and I'm, like, pitching him on, like, you know, basically,

17:44

if you bought our thing, like, it would add this dimension to discord. It would be awesome. And what I was so used to was most founders,

if you bought our thing, like, it would add this dimension to discord. It would be awesome. And what I was so used to was most founders,

17:51

If you if you're just kind of saying how awesome they are and how they can take over all these different how there's so much more they can do, how this is just the beginning, and how there's all these different ways that they can expand

If you if you're just kind of saying how awesome they are and how they can take over all these different how there's so much more they can do, how this is just the beginning, and how there's all these different ways that they can expand

18:01

Normally, they're like, yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. We can do that too. We can do that too. It all sounds good.

Normally, they're like, yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. We can do that too. We can do that too. It all sounds good.

18:07

And he was just sort of like,

And he was just sort of like,

18:09

You know, I would acquire you guys because I like you and I like that you came in and you had this, like, whiteboard and you just, like, painted a picture for me. But we won't do any of that.

You know, I would acquire you guys because I like you and I like that you came in and you had this, like, whiteboard and you just, like, painted a picture for me. But we won't do any of that.

18:17

And he's like,

And he's like,

18:19

no. That's not what Discord should do. What we should do, and he said no. And he was like, we should just be this one horizontal utility that does this one thing.

no. That's not what Discord should do. What we should do, and he said no. And he was like, we should just be this one horizontal utility that does this one thing.

18:27

And,

And,

18:28

that's our that's that's the right strategy for us. And he was the first guy that said no when I was, like, kind of giving him some ice cream of, like, you can have this. Too. Right. Right. And and I just thought, oh, that's what, like, this is this is probably what Zuck was like. You know, this is probably what somebody who was focused was like, because back when Zuck was building Facebook. It was like, Myspace was adding music and then TV shows and doing these, like, brand deals and, like, he was just like, nope, real names. Simple profiles.

that's our that's that's the right strategy for us. And he was the first guy that said no when I was, like, kind of giving him some ice cream of, like, you can have this. Too. Right. Right. And and I just thought, oh, that's what, like, this is this is probably what Zuck was like. You know, this is probably what somebody who was focused was like, because back when Zuck was building Facebook. It was like, Myspace was adding music and then TV shows and doing these, like, brand deals and, like, he was just like, nope, real names. Simple profiles.

18:54

We're just gonna let you, like, you know, communicate and add photos and do this stuff. And, like, he said no to a bunch of different things, which is why he spoke with some such a cleaner site than myspace and all the other competitors that were out there.

We're just gonna let you, like, you know, communicate and add photos and do this stuff. And, like, he said no to a bunch of different things, which is why he spoke with some such a cleaner site than myspace and all the other competitors that were out there.

19:05

Yeah. I would argue they've lost a lot of that because they say yes to a lot of the cloning of features of other other competitors. But, yeah, you're right. That relentless

Yeah. I would argue they've lost a lot of that because they say yes to a lot of the cloning of features of other other competitors. But, yeah, you're right. That relentless

19:14

focus

focus

19:14

is is so essential. And oftentimes, it's it's more what you say no to than what you say yes to on the product side. You know, I I that totally agrees and vibes with me for sure.

is is so essential. And oftentimes, it's it's more what you say no to than what you say yes to on the product side. You know, I I that totally agrees and vibes with me for sure.

19:25

Do do you sort of, when you're doing all these projects,

Do do you sort of, when you're doing all these projects,

19:29

back to the projects, do do you have, like, a set of rules? Like, for example, I know a guy who

back to the projects, do do you have, like, a set of rules? Like, for example, I know a guy who

19:34

incredibly successful.

incredibly successful.

19:35

I talked to him one time his name's Kevin, or a couple of times his name's Kevin Ryan. He started, like, MongoDB,

I talked to him one time his name's Kevin, or a couple of times his name's Kevin Ryan. He started, like, MongoDB,

19:41

insider, Gil Group, all these, like, amazing companies. And he was like, well, I just do back of the envelope math, and then I give each project six months and me and my partner typically fund it with three hundred thousand dollars.

insider, Gil Group, all these, like, amazing companies. And he was like, well, I just do back of the envelope math, and then I give each project six months and me and my partner typically fund it with three hundred thousand dollars.

19:52

And we kinda like feel it out. It's a little mathematical, but it's also like, let's just see what happens in six months and see if this is sing and we'll decide.

And we kinda like feel it out. It's a little mathematical, but it's also like, let's just see what happens in six months and see if this is sing and we'll decide.

19:59

And so he's like six months, three hundred k. Can we make something cool? And I talked to atomic labs, the other day, you know atomic labs? They're like that incubator, that they're not really an incubator. They're like start companies.

And so he's like six months, three hundred k. Can we make something cool? And I talked to atomic labs, the other day, you know atomic labs? They're like that incubator, that they're not really an incubator. They're like start companies.

20:10

And they said something, like, they're like, yeah. Well, like, sometimes we'll only spend fifty grand and, like, two months or something like that. Do you have, like, something like that when you're starting a bunch of your projects, like the fasting app or the meditation app where you're, like, think you did another one. Milk, or is that the name of the production? Yeah. That was the name of the the kinda incubator studio. Yeah. Like,

And they said something, like, they're like, yeah. Well, like, sometimes we'll only spend fifty grand and, like, two months or something like that. Do you have, like, something like that when you're starting a bunch of your projects, like the fasting app or the meditation app where you're, like, think you did another one. Milk, or is that the name of the production? Yeah. That was the name of the the kinda incubator studio. Yeah. Like,

20:29

yeah. Do you, like, have, like, rules for what you're looking for?

yeah. Do you, like, have, like, rules for what you're looking for?

20:33

Yeah. I mean, it's

Yeah. I mean, it's

20:35

there is,

there is,

20:37

I guess the the question really comes to when you decide kill something or sell it off or get rid of it or move on to the next thing. And and oftentimes

I guess the the question really comes to when you decide kill something or sell it off or get rid of it or move on to the next thing. And and oftentimes

20:45

it's,

it's,

20:46

because your original kind of thesis around either the market size or just the concept behind it just didn't take hold And so I don't have any, like, hard set number of months. Sometimes you're early.

because your original kind of thesis around either the market size or just the concept behind it just didn't take hold And so I don't have any, like, hard set number of months. Sometimes you're early.

20:59

So, you know, the fasting app, for example,

So, you know, the fasting app, for example,

21:04

you know, when when I launched zero, it it sat at, you know, tens of thousands of users for the first eight months.

you know, when when I launched zero, it it sat at, you know, tens of thousands of users for the first eight months.

21:11

And then fasting hit, and it became more of a household thing. And people were talking about intermittent fasting. It was all over TV and different know, places are picking it up. And so people aren't just naturally searching for fasting in the app store because that's just what they do. And then that's when it exploded to, you know, hundreds of thousands and, you know, a million plus monthly active people doing fast.

And then fasting hit, and it became more of a household thing. And people were talking about intermittent fasting. It was all over TV and different know, places are picking it up. And so people aren't just naturally searching for fasting in the app store because that's just what they do. And then that's when it exploded to, you know, hundreds of thousands and, you know, a million plus monthly active people doing fast.

21:32

But it was

But it was

21:34

had I shut that down after the first six months?

had I shut that down after the first six months?

21:37

You know, it had been too soon. So something like that, if you if you just believe the market is not quite mature enough, I typically put it into a little bit more of a maintenance mode. You know, I I got it to that first version where I felt like this is a useful

You know, it had been too soon. So something like that, if you if you just believe the market is not quite mature enough, I typically put it into a little bit more of a maintenance mode. You know, I I got it to that first version where I felt like this is a useful

21:51

utility for people that are looking to learn more and get into fasting.

utility for people that are looking to learn more and get into fasting.

21:55

Now let's just,

Now let's just,

21:56

let it kind of organically build from here. And we were seeing, you know, nice, slow, consistent kind of week over week month over month growth, but nothing explosive like you you're used to seeing in a in a high growth startup. So

let it kind of organically build from here. And we were seeing, you know, nice, slow, consistent kind of week over week month over month growth, but nothing explosive like you you're used to seeing in a in a high growth startup. So

22:10

that one that one in particular was just like, let's just just wait around.

that one that one in particular was just like, let's just just wait around.

22:14

And then other times, you know, you create something and you've just clearly missed the mark. It it's like we created this app called tiny, which was a a fun little photo sharing app that was,

And then other times, you know, you create something and you've just clearly missed the mark. It it's like we created this app called tiny, which was a a fun little photo sharing app that was,

22:24

Yeah. I used it about I liked it. Oh, you did. Awesome. Yeah. It was, like, these little, the little screeny footage size,

Yeah. I used it about I liked it. Oh, you did. Awesome. Yeah. It was, like, these little, the little screeny footage size,

22:31

looping videos with no audio. And we thought it would just be like a little bit more quick, a little intimate way to show kind of how you're traversing throughout your days and weeks rather than having to take the time to set up to look all perfect in front of your perfect Instagram photo. There was less pressure literally because it was small. Right. Exactly. That part was actually kinda through.

looping videos with no audio. And we thought it would just be like a little bit more quick, a little intimate way to show kind of how you're traversing throughout your days and weeks rather than having to take the time to set up to look all perfect in front of your perfect Instagram photo. There was less pressure literally because it was small. Right. Exactly. That part was actually kinda through.

22:51

Yeah. And and that was a crazy one because, you know, we launched and it just it caught fire immediately and we had, you know, hundreds of thousands of downloads in the first week, and then it just died off completely. And everyone was like, that was a fad. That was a that was a a fun little fad. And that one we shut down pretty quickly after that because it was clear that it was a fun little thing, but but there was no depth to it. It was a it was a feature, not not a real product. So,

Yeah. And and that was a crazy one because, you know, we launched and it just it caught fire immediately and we had, you know, hundreds of thousands of downloads in the first week, and then it just died off completely. And everyone was like, that was a fad. That was a that was a a fun little fad. And that one we shut down pretty quickly after that because it was clear that it was a fun little thing, but but there was no depth to it. It was a it was a feature, not not a real product. So,

23:17

yeah, it it varies from product to product, I guess, is the best answer I can give you. Cool.

yeah, it it varies from product to product, I guess, is the best answer I can give you. Cool.

23:22

Okay. So

Okay. So

23:23

you talked a little bit about, like, you know, which one was the most lucrative? Okay. Yeah. Obviously, you know, sort of Angel investing in Twitter and then getting into, you know, Facebook and and others is is

you talked a little bit about, like, you know, which one was the most lucrative? Okay. Yeah. Obviously, you know, sort of Angel investing in Twitter and then getting into, you know, Facebook and and others is is

23:33

it works out well. Which one was the most fun? So which chapter,

it works out well. Which one was the most fun? So which chapter,

23:38

was the most fun? And kind of with that is I'm on this mission. I just, you know, like, after selling companies, like, I got time. And so I was like, alright. Well, what's the party now? I was like, I wanna find out who's having the most fun in their career. And, like,

was the most fun? And kind of with that is I'm on this mission. I just, you know, like, after selling companies, like, I got time. And so I was like, alright. Well, what's the party now? I was like, I wanna find out who's having the most fun in their career. And, like,

23:50

because that's what I wanna do now. I just wanna have the most most fun type of crew who's having the most fun with their life right now. So I wanna know for you, which of your projects is most fun. And then who do you see who could who's a blueprint I could look at where you're like, Disper I've met this person. They're having a blast with what they do.

because that's what I wanna do now. I just wanna have the most most fun type of crew who's having the most fun with their life right now. So I wanna know for you, which of your projects is most fun. And then who do you see who could who's a blueprint I could look at where you're like, Disper I've met this person. They're having a blast with what they do.

24:07

Yeah.

Yeah.

24:08

Well, I would say that the,

Well, I would say that the,

24:13

you know, there's the the nice thing about starting your own businesses is you're you're doing it because there's a personal drive behind it. Like, I've never created anything because I thought here's an opportunity to make money. It's never been that. It it's it we were talking about this as we were just, you know, prior to hitting recorder, whatever, about the little podcast case holder on Amazon. Right? And, like, there's There's there's sometimes there's these little businesses where you see, a broken piece of an industry and you're like, well, gosh, if I went out and created this, I could sell x number of units per year, and it'd be a great little profitable business. And, like, that's never really interest me. It's more about the

you know, there's the the nice thing about starting your own businesses is you're you're doing it because there's a personal drive behind it. Like, I've never created anything because I thought here's an opportunity to make money. It's never been that. It it's it we were talking about this as we were just, you know, prior to hitting recorder, whatever, about the little podcast case holder on Amazon. Right? And, like, there's There's there's sometimes there's these little businesses where you see, a broken piece of an industry and you're like, well, gosh, if I went out and created this, I could sell x number of units per year, and it'd be a great little profitable business. And, like, that's never really interest me. It's more about the

24:48

just the creativity of it all and just the exploration

just the creativity of it all and just the exploration

24:51

of an idea that I'm drawn to. And so,

of an idea that I'm drawn to. And so,

24:55

no startup is fun. They're they're all they're all roller coasters loopy loops. Like, there's the chaos of all those things, right, especially as you grow your team and there's HR issues and people getting sick and products not getting shipped on time and customers being upset. And, you know, that there's there's it's never gonna be just like this perfect dream.

no startup is fun. They're they're all they're all roller coasters loopy loops. Like, there's the chaos of all those things, right, especially as you grow your team and there's HR issues and people getting sick and products not getting shipped on time and customers being upset. And, you know, that there's there's it's never gonna be just like this perfect dream.

25:15

But,

But,

25:17

that said, as long as it's something that you're just naturally drawn to,

that said, as long as it's something that you're just naturally drawn to,

25:21

I'm always having a good time. And and I'd I'd say though

I'm always having a good time. And and I'd I'd say though

25:25

that said, that's kind of a, you know, a little bit of a dodging the question. But

that said, that's kind of a, you know, a little bit of a dodging the question. But

25:30

the more recently

the more recently

25:32

when I've gotta gotten into the art and NFT side of things,

when I've gotta gotten into the art and NFT side of things,

25:36

that world, in the world of cryptocurrency,

that world, in the world of cryptocurrency,

25:39

is probably the most fun because

is probably the most fun because

25:41

it is so blue ocean, and there's just so much to be built there. It's not building yet another

it is so blue ocean, and there's just so much to be built there. It's not building yet another

25:47

app. And competing on on CAC in the App Store. It's like, it's it's really,

app. And competing on on CAC in the App Store. It's like, it's it's really,

25:53

there's there's

there's there's

25:54

so many different directions you can go

so many different directions you can go

25:57

and and very few. Well, there there there's there's

and and very few. Well, there there there's there's

26:01

a decent amount of of high quality entrepreneurs in the space, but not as as much say, you know, building something for the app store. So,

a decent amount of of high quality entrepreneurs in the space, but not as as much say, you know, building something for the app store. So,

26:08

I enjoy kind of more the blue ocean aspect of of that world. Man, I remember when basically, I I started this company called the hustle. It was like a daily email and we sold it for we bootstrapped and sold it for tens of millions of dollars. It kinda it kinda sounds a little bit similar to what you were saying about your story. I lived in San Francisco, and I started a media company because I was like, I'm not capable of starting a tech company, but I wish I were. And also, I'm good at writing. When I saw you went and did the watch site, holding key,

I enjoy kind of more the blue ocean aspect of of that world. Man, I remember when basically, I I started this company called the hustle. It was like a daily email and we sold it for we bootstrapped and sold it for tens of millions of dollars. It kinda it kinda sounds a little bit similar to what you were saying about your story. I lived in San Francisco, and I started a media company because I was like, I'm not capable of starting a tech company, but I wish I were. And also, I'm good at writing. When I saw you went and did the watch site, holding key,

26:36

first of all, Sean, have you ever read that? Like, when I when I heard, I was like, a blog. I I like watches. I have Rolex's as like a blog for luxury watches. What the hell is this guy thinking?

first of all, Sean, have you ever read that? Like, when I when I heard, I was like, a blog. I I like watches. I have Rolex's as like a blog for luxury watches. What the hell is this guy thinking?

26:47

Like, he just, like, he he he like, it started as something else. Right? You started in as, like, Watchville or it was, like, it was something else you acquired, emerged, and you became like the CEO of this. I remember looking at that, just being like, I have no idea what the hell he's doing. I don't wear watches, so I had no I was completely out of touch with it. And it just seemed like, you know, a hobby project at the time. And then I started looking into it and I was like, oh, wow. There's like a huge passionate base around this and this company makes a lot of money,

Like, he just, like, he he he like, it started as something else. Right? You started in as, like, Watchville or it was, like, it was something else you acquired, emerged, and you became like the CEO of this. I remember looking at that, just being like, I have no idea what the hell he's doing. I don't wear watches, so I had no I was completely out of touch with it. And it just seemed like, you know, a hobby project at the time. And then I started looking into it and I was like, oh, wow. There's like a huge passionate base around this and this company makes a lot of money,

27:14

then it's been around for a long time. I don't think it did make a lot of money. Did it? Like, I remember I read that, and I was like, I like this business because I'm into it, but, like, This guy is frankly way above this. What is he thinking? Like, this is he's, like, this is needlessly hard.

then it's been around for a long time. I don't think it did make a lot of money. Did it? Like, I remember I read that, and I was like, I like this business because I'm into it, but, like, This guy is frankly way above this. What is he thinking? Like, this is he's, like, this is needlessly hard.

27:27

Well, watch fill was so

Well, watch fill was so

27:30

again, like, just kind of, like, personal passion stuff. So I was into watches mainly because when my father passed away, he left me with a single watch, and it's something that I aware of once in a while. And it was for him, it was, like, to afford a single Rolex

again, like, just kind of, like, personal passion stuff. So I was into watches mainly because when my father passed away, he left me with a single watch, and it's something that I aware of once in a while. And it was for him, it was, like, to afford a single Rolex

27:44

in a in a middle class household is a big deal. Like, that's, like, back in the eighties, you know, when my dad bought that, he was just like, I've made it know, I have a and I'm not talking about one of the crazy relaxes. I'm talking about just the standard day date kind of like, you know, simple relax and, like, that was, like, one thing he was really proud of, you know, that in his, like, GMC pickup truck. Right? And so,

in a in a middle class household is a big deal. Like, that's, like, back in the eighties, you know, when my dad bought that, he was just like, I've made it know, I have a and I'm not talking about one of the crazy relaxes. I'm talking about just the standard day date kind of like, you know, simple relax and, like, that was, like, one thing he was really proud of, you know, that in his, like, GMC pickup truck. Right? And so,

28:06

those

those

28:07

that was something I was left with. And then I started reading some of the content. So Ben climber created Hodenky the actual blog.

that was something I was left with. And then I started reading some of the content. So Ben climber created Hodenky the actual blog.

28:15

And I created watch fill, which was an aggregator and an app that brought together all of these different sources so that people can read this stuff on the mobile,

And I created watch fill, which was an aggregator and an app that brought together all of these different sources so that people can read this stuff on the mobile,

28:24

on their mobile phone because a a lot of as as silly as it sounds

on their mobile phone because a a lot of as as silly as it sounds

28:28

back then, most of the, excuse me, most of the watch sites didn't have,

back then, most of the, excuse me, most of the watch sites didn't have,

28:33

mobile versions of their site. So they were on just like old, old software, publishing software that what that was just horrible. So

mobile versions of their site. So they were on just like old, old software, publishing software that what that was just horrible. So

28:41

I I I made it all very readable.

I I I made it all very readable.

28:44

Push notifications,

Push notifications,

28:45

like, all the stuff just to kind of a wrapper for, like, all of this great content.

like, all the stuff just to kind of a wrapper for, like, all of this great content.

28:50

And it it just started growing and growing and growing, and I had a lot of eyeballs, like some of the the the biggest collectors were were now using the product.

And it it just started growing and growing and growing, and I had a lot of eyeballs, like some of the the the biggest collectors were were now using the product.

28:58

And,

And,

28:59

you know, I I, Hodinke was the most kind of best prominent

you know, I I, Hodinke was the most kind of best prominent

29:03

sources of this content that took it very seriously. So it was, you know, they had had a couple full time writers. And so

sources of this content that took it very seriously. So it was, you know, they had had a couple full time writers. And so

29:11

I talked to Ben and said, hey, you don't have the tech team here. Let let's let's merge and and combine forces. So

I talked to Ben and said, hey, you don't have the tech team here. Let let's let's merge and and combine forces. So

29:18

We,

We,

29:19

we merged the two companies together.

we merged the two companies together.

29:21

He was three or four people, and I was three or four people.

He was three or four people, and I was three or four people.

29:26

I moved to New York, became CEO. At the time he was doing,

I moved to New York, became CEO. At the time he was doing,

29:30

maybe a million and a half to two million dollars a year in revenue.

maybe a million and a half to two million dollars a year in revenue.

29:34

So just enough to kind of do payroll.

So just enough to kind of do payroll.

29:36

And,

And,

29:37

we grew up from there and then turned on e commerce and then started selling,

we grew up from there and then turned on e commerce and then started selling,

29:41

and and creating partnerships with the big watch brands. And now, you know, as authorized dealers

and and creating partnerships with the big watch brands. And now, you know, as authorized dealers

29:47

represent, you know, several dozen of the big watch brands that are out there. And that just became a massive.

represent, you know, several dozen of the big watch brands that are out there. And that just became a massive.

29:53

It was still a relatively unknown

It was still a relatively unknown

29:56

back then whether or not people would actually spend large sums of money over Apple Pay. Right?

back then whether or not people would actually spend large sums of money over Apple Pay. Right?

30:01

And so,

And so,

30:03

I remember

I remember

30:04

we had someone from Apple that was,

we had someone from Apple that was,

30:06

you know, helping us on you get to a certain size, they kinda give you a little bit more concierge help on the app's stuff. And they said that they had seen their, a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar

you know, helping us on you get to a certain size, they kinda give you a little bit more concierge help on the app's stuff. And they said that they had seen their, a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar

30:17

transaction come through Apple Pay,

transaction come through Apple Pay,

30:19

on an American Express, and that was, like, the largest known transaction at that time that had been done over Apple Pay for a sight unseen,

on an American Express, and that was, like, the largest known transaction at that time that had been done over Apple Pay for a sight unseen,

30:28

vintage Rolex, which was, which is kinda crazy.

vintage Rolex, which was, which is kinda crazy.

30:31

But anyway, yeah, so that I mean,

But anyway, yeah, so that I mean,

30:34

New new new luxury watches are double digit billions of dollars in a year.

New new new luxury watches are double digit billions of dollars in a year.

30:41

In in terms of market size. So it's it's a big industry that that many people,

In in terms of market size. So it's it's a big industry that that many people,

30:46

it's not as apparent in the states.

it's not as apparent in the states.

30:48

When you go overseas,

When you go overseas,

30:50

you'll see how in in Europe there, you know, watches are so much more, kind of a

you'll see how in in Europe there, you know, watches are so much more, kind of a

30:56

type of thing that is is worn versus smartwatches are more of the norm or no no watch at all, here in the States. Did you did you just say that it went from like, a million or two in revenue. And now it's Sam said it's over a hundred million.

type of thing that is is worn versus smartwatches are more of the norm or no no watch at all, here in the States. Did you did you just say that it went from like, a million or two in revenue. And now it's Sam said it's over a hundred million.

31:11

Yeah. Yeah. We're over a hundred million in revenue man, that is wild. Like,

Yeah. Yeah. We're over a hundred million in revenue man, that is wild. Like,

31:16

and a lot of it's commerce. I mean, you guys, like,

and a lot of it's commerce. I mean, you guys, like,

31:19

when people talk about content and commerce, I think most of the time it's nonsense.

when people talk about content and commerce, I think most of the time it's nonsense.

31:23

Like, Buzzfeed talks about it. And I'm like, I don't know, man. I don't think people are gonna be buying a lot of branded Buzzfeed pillows and shit like that. Or, like, they had that tasty thing. I was like, I don't think people are gonna buy a buzzfeed oven. I just don't think that's gonna happen. And you guys did it. And I was like, oh, no. Is this like gonna be a thing? It seems so challenging.

Like, Buzzfeed talks about it. And I'm like, I don't know, man. I don't think people are gonna be buying a lot of branded Buzzfeed pillows and shit like that. Or, like, they had that tasty thing. I was like, I don't think people are gonna buy a buzzfeed oven. I just don't think that's gonna happen. And you guys did it. And I was like, oh, no. Is this like gonna be a thing? It seems so challenging.

31:40

But you guys are a perfect example of that. You know what the other good example, I bet you go to bring a trailer. Do you go to bring a trailer dot com? I've been to bring trailer many times. Yeah. This awesome Hodinky. It's one of his favorite sites, actually.

But you guys are a perfect example of that. You know what the other good example, I bet you go to bring a trailer. Do you go to bring a trailer dot com? I've been to bring trailer many times. Yeah. This awesome Hodinky. It's one of his favorite sites, actually.

31:52

They are awesome. And so they've done the same thing but with cars Mhmm. Where basically it's like this perfect tie of, like, I just I I bought one car from actually, those websites. And,

They are awesome. And so they've done the same thing but with cars Mhmm. Where basically it's like this perfect tie of, like, I just I I bought one car from actually, those websites. And,

32:01

but I read it every single day. I'm like, let's just see, like, what they're gonna write about, what cool cars out there. And then you guys did it with watches. And I loved your videos with John Mayor. We talked about his watch collection and all that shit. It's awesome. But what, what other verticals or what other, like, industries have you thought Ma'am, maybe I could actually do this model. I've always thought software, but, like, that's not nearly as sexy and cool as watches and vintage cars. But has there any it's like, when you were like thinking about this model, I I bet you're at at night. You're like, I'm not gonna do it, but I bet you I can apply this here here and here.

but I read it every single day. I'm like, let's just see, like, what they're gonna write about, what cool cars out there. And then you guys did it with watches. And I loved your videos with John Mayor. We talked about his watch collection and all that shit. It's awesome. But what, what other verticals or what other, like, industries have you thought Ma'am, maybe I could actually do this model. I've always thought software, but, like, that's not nearly as sexy and cool as watches and vintage cars. But has there any it's like, when you were like thinking about this model, I I bet you're at at night. You're like, I'm not gonna do it, but I bet you I can apply this here here and here.

32:33

Yeah. I mean, in in some sense, that's kind of what we're doing right now in the world of NFTs,

Yeah. I mean, in in some sense, that's kind of what we're doing right now in the world of NFTs,

32:38

where there

where there

32:39

everyone that's armed with Photoshop can create a digital,

everyone that's armed with Photoshop can create a digital,

32:43

piece of art on the blockchain.

piece of art on the blockchain.

32:45

And there's this mad rush into the world of NFTs, but there is just a ton of clutter. Right? And and just a a ton of of of of of projects to sort through. So What we created with proof was this this idea of, you know, it's the same thing with Hodinke. It's the same playbook. It's this curation with the point of view. Where you can have a strong editorial team come in,

And there's this mad rush into the world of NFTs, but there is just a ton of clutter. Right? And and just a a ton of of of of of projects to sort through. So What we created with proof was this this idea of, you know, it's the same thing with Hodinke. It's the same playbook. It's this curation with the point of view. Where you can have a strong editorial team come in,

33:08

that isn't talking about the flipping side of the industry that isn't talking about how to make a quick buck in keys,

that isn't talking about the flipping side of the industry that isn't talking about how to make a quick buck in keys,

33:15

that is really talking about what would you buy and hold for the next decade plus. Right? And the playbook that that Hodinke nailed so well was that we took editorials so seriously and really hired out just a, absolute stellar team of writers that had a deep understanding

that is really talking about what would you buy and hold for the next decade plus. Right? And the playbook that that Hodinke nailed so well was that we took editorials so seriously and really hired out just a, absolute stellar team of writers that had a deep understanding

33:31

of the world of watches and not just a announcement.

of the world of watches and not just a announcement.

33:34

This is a new watch that was dropped, but a understanding of the the mechanics of the internals of the watches. So they could tell you about the different movements and escapements and why certain complications were harder to pull off technically than others. And so it was a real Geeks blog. And with that

This is a new watch that was dropped, but a understanding of the the mechanics of the internals of the watches. So they could tell you about the different movements and escapements and why certain complications were harder to pull off technically than others. And so it was a real Geeks blog. And with that

33:51

technical

technical

33:52

hardcore writing,

hardcore writing,

33:54

develop trust. And so you and once you have the trust of your readers,

develop trust. And so you and once you have the trust of your readers,

34:00

then you're able to extend commerce in a meaningful way. And it's not asking them to buy, you know,

then you're able to extend commerce in a meaningful way. And it's not asking them to buy, you know,

34:07

a microwave or some, like, inexpensive

a microwave or some, like, inexpensive

34:09

or a throw pillow. It's it's it's saying, We have your trust. This is, what we believe to be a very important,

or a throw pillow. It's it's it's saying, We have your trust. This is, what we believe to be a very important,

34:15

you know,

you know,

34:16

watch or collectible,

watch or collectible,

34:18

and because of that, you know, you're willing to pull the trigger on a on a twenty, thirty, fifty thousand dollar purchase.

and because of that, you know, you're willing to pull the trigger on a on a twenty, thirty, fifty thousand dollar purchase.

34:25

So,

So,

34:26

it's trust is so essential. Do you think that well, I at the hustle, we were trying to we hired a bunch of writers. Sean hired some writers as well for his thing. It's a crypt of thing. And

it's trust is so essential. Do you think that well, I at the hustle, we were trying to we hired a bunch of writers. Sean hired some writers as well for his thing. It's a crypt of thing. And

34:35

I I've always debated this in my brain. I'm like, do I hire good writers and teach them about business, or do I hire smart business people and teach them how to write?

I I've always debated this in my brain. I'm like, do I hire good writers and teach them about business, or do I hire smart business people and teach them how to write?

34:44

What did you find was the best way to do that for, watches?

What did you find was the best way to do that for, watches?

34:48

Yeah. I mean, the best way to do that was to find people that had the natural

Yeah. I mean, the best way to do that was to find people that had the natural

34:52

organic

organic

34:53

built in a love for,

built in a love for,

34:56

horology, like, just this to say for for all things mechanical

horology, like, just this to say for for all things mechanical

35:00

watches. So,

watches. So,

35:02

you know, we would have writers that

you know, we would have writers that

35:05

If you

If you

35:06

take, for example, like the speedmaster, the the the the watch that made it to the moon from Omega.

take, for example, like the speedmaster, the the the the watch that made it to the moon from Omega.

35:11

You know, they could tell you every single

You know, they could tell you every single

35:14

variant and movement change and the reasons why, and they were just super geeky on this stuff. And they may have been just like B plus writers where you get them, but they had the technical knowledge in their brain. And that's a lot easier to fix because you get them to put that that technical information

variant and movement change and the reasons why, and they were just super geeky on this stuff. And they may have been just like B plus writers where you get them, but they had the technical knowledge in their brain. And that's a lot easier to fix because you get them to put that that technical information

35:32

out,

out,

35:33

in draft form, and then you just apply

in draft form, and then you just apply

35:36

an editorial layer over the top of it. You have copy editors that come in and help, you know, stitch together a a better more more cohesive story before you actually publish it out to the world. Yeah. I love that.

an editorial layer over the top of it. You have copy editors that come in and help, you know, stitch together a a better more more cohesive story before you actually publish it out to the world. Yeah. I love that.

35:47

This data is wrong every freaking time.

This data is wrong every freaking time.

35:50

Have you heard of HubSpot?

Have you heard of HubSpot?

35:53

HubSpot is a CRM platform where everything is fully integrate. Well, I can see the client's whole history, calls, support tickets, emails. And

HubSpot is a CRM platform where everything is fully integrate. Well, I can see the client's whole history, calls, support tickets, emails. And

36:01

here's a test from three days ago, I totally missed

here's a test from three days ago, I totally missed

36:05

HubSpot, grow better.

HubSpot, grow better.

36:07

You're a pretty chill guy. When do you get, like, really fired up? Like, what what gets you

You're a pretty chill guy. When do you get, like, really fired up? Like, what what gets you

36:12

excited,

excited,

36:14

or in a good or bad way. Like,

or in a good or bad way. Like,

36:16

you know, I get really enthusiastic

you know, I get really enthusiastic

36:18

about the most random shit, like the most

about the most random shit, like the most

36:21

it'll be like a creative project that I'm like, I bet I could pull this off. And I just go Like, I just get too excited about it. Sam has that same thing, but he also has it where If he feels he's wronged, Sam's, like, you know, willing to fight to the death about it. And so he gets really pumped up. What gets you really pumped up? Ray Rages my fuel.

it'll be like a creative project that I'm like, I bet I could pull this off. And I just go Like, I just get too excited about it. Sam has that same thing, but he also has it where If he feels he's wronged, Sam's, like, you know, willing to fight to the death about it. And so he gets really pumped up. What gets you really pumped up? Ray Rages my fuel.

36:38

I I love I love fighting.

I I love I love fighting.

36:41

Yeah. So

Yeah. So

36:42

for me,

for me,

36:43

new ideas and working with creative people is the the the most kind of, like,

new ideas and working with creative people is the the the most kind of, like,

36:49

strongest source of fuel for me. So when I get together with an artist or an a fellow entrepreneur,

strongest source of fuel for me. So when I get together with an artist or an a fellow entrepreneur,

36:55

And I actually it doesn't have to be someone that has created something big.

And I actually it doesn't have to be someone that has created something big.

36:59

How it has it's rather someone that just has

How it has it's rather someone that just has

37:02

wild ideas that that are potentially,

wild ideas that that are potentially,

37:08

just new new ways of looking at the world. And so there you meet a lot of entrepreneurs

just new new ways of looking at the world. And so there you meet a lot of entrepreneurs

37:12

that are opportunistic,

that are opportunistic,

37:14

iterative entrepreneurs where they'll see something. They'll say, oh, there's some those rough edges on that particular product. I'm gonna go sand them down. Make it easier for consumers and go launch a business. And they have great success.

iterative entrepreneurs where they'll see something. They'll say, oh, there's some those rough edges on that particular product. I'm gonna go sand them down. Make it easier for consumers and go launch a business. And they have great success.

37:24

I like the ones that are just, like,

I like the ones that are just, like,

37:26

really

really

37:27

thinking about,

thinking about,

37:28

in higher new verticals are just flipping something completely on its head in new and creative ways.

in higher new verticals are just flipping something completely on its head in new and creative ways.

37:34

So that is what I'm really drawn to from just a a straight idea.

So that is what I'm really drawn to from just a a straight idea.

37:38

Point of view. And so

Point of view. And so

37:40

entrepreneur wise, and when I I invest in some of these startups,

entrepreneur wise, and when I I invest in some of these startups,

37:44

those are my favorites. Are are are those those crazy

those are my favorites. Are are are those those crazy

37:49

more

more

37:49

world changing entrepreneurs.

world changing entrepreneurs.

37:53

In terms of the

In terms of the

37:55

the rage side of things,

the rage side of things,

37:58

Yeah. Dude, you've had a you've had a bunch of rage inducing moments. I've I've followed your career. I've seen I've seen you've got this fucking raccoon. Yeah. I saw you in the raccoon. We saw that one. I've seen

Yeah. Dude, you've had a you've had a bunch of rage inducing moments. I've I've followed your career. I've seen I've seen you've got this fucking raccoon. Yeah. I saw you in the raccoon. We saw that one. I've seen

38:09

people protest outside your house. I've seen you get in trouble for, like, I don't know, wanting to demolish like a historical building. I don't know, like, the whole story Like, you you've had you've kind of been a target.

people protest outside your house. I've seen you get in trouble for, like, I don't know, wanting to demolish like a historical building. I don't know, like, the whole story Like, you you've had you've kind of been a target.

38:19

Yeah. I mean, those the those all have their own unique story that the historical building thing was definitely not true.

Yeah. I mean, those the those all have their own unique story that the historical building thing was definitely not true.

38:27

That that was a that was a pretty funny one in that. But but that was,

That that was a that was a pretty funny one in that. But but that was,

38:31

that was just people wanting to keep an old house up in the neighborhood, and they called it historic, even though it really wasn't.

that was just people wanting to keep an old house up in the neighborhood, and they called it historic, even though it really wasn't.

38:39

We wanted to take it down because it was filled with asbestos, which we didn't wanna live in a house that had asbestos in it. But That's a whole another story.

We wanted to take it down because it was filled with asbestos, which we didn't wanna live in a house that had asbestos in it. But That's a whole another story.

38:46

The rage stuff, you know, the the the the last

The rage stuff, you know, the the the the last

38:51

four to five years of of my life has been spent,

four to five years of of my life has been spent,

38:55

trying to to to kind of master my own mind. And and it I I think that if you can't

trying to to to kind of master my own mind. And and it I I think that if you can't

39:02

come to grips with your own,

come to grips with your own,

39:04

like, personal peace of mind.

like, personal peace of mind.

39:08

It's it's a horrible place to be. And so You know, I I remember

It's it's a horrible place to be. And so You know, I I remember

39:13

as a young entrepreneur, just kind of being on this twenty four seven hustle to go build, build, build. I gotta win. I have to win. I have to win. I have to win. And it created a level of anxiety that was not good for me. And and so I think that's part probably why you saw me kind of do things like the meditation app and other other things because I it was just a a natural forcing function for my my own self to, like, take some of that stuff more seriously.

as a young entrepreneur, just kind of being on this twenty four seven hustle to go build, build, build. I gotta win. I have to win. I have to win. I have to win. And it created a level of anxiety that was not good for me. And and so I think that's part probably why you saw me kind of do things like the meditation app and other other things because I it was just a a natural forcing function for my my own self to, like, take some of that stuff more seriously.

39:36

And so, you know,

And so, you know,

39:39

I I just want to be able to to be able to sit and not have to have my mind be always on. And that that's kind of been my goal, and it's something I'm still I'm still working on so that it's not like I remember there was this interview with Elon Musk, and I'm not comparing myself to Elon Musk, but I there's one thing that I I can certainly relate to where he talks about how his mind sometimes just never shuts off. And he's always thinking about things, problems,

I I just want to be able to to be able to sit and not have to have my mind be always on. And that that's kind of been my goal, and it's something I'm still I'm still working on so that it's not like I remember there was this interview with Elon Musk, and I'm not comparing myself to Elon Musk, but I there's one thing that I I can certainly relate to where he talks about how his mind sometimes just never shuts off. And he's always thinking about things, problems,

40:06

new ideas, like all these things. And,

new ideas, like all these things. And,

40:09

and it's it's

and it's it's

40:12

for me, it's always been,

for me, it's always been,

40:15

that that has been not a blessing, but something that I has just been as weighed on me. And and I've always tried to

that that has been not a blessing, but something that I has just been as weighed on me. And and I've always tried to

40:23

I guess the the big push in the last few years have been to try and wrangle that.

I guess the the big push in the last few years have been to try and wrangle that.

40:28

What kind of gets you all hot and bothered now when you're thinking about, like, the new industries or the things that excite you. What what ideas would you pursue to have? One caveat that you're that you're not currently pursuing.

What kind of gets you all hot and bothered now when you're thinking about, like, the new industries or the things that excite you. What what ideas would you pursue to have? One caveat that you're that you're not currently pursuing.

40:40

So, because it's easy to say, oh, I'm excited about this project I'm doing. I think,

So, because it's easy to say, oh, I'm excited about this project I'm doing. I think,

40:45

like, for example, Palmer Lucky was on the last episode, and he was talking about, alright. We're, we're, like, you're doing Andrew. You did oculus.

like, for example, Palmer Lucky was on the last episode, and he was talking about, alright. We're, we're, like, you're doing Andrew. You did oculus.

40:52

What are the ideas that are on your kind of like, oh, that's interesting, but, like, I only got one me, so I can't go do it. Because I think that's that's the most interesting to the audience,

What are the ideas that are on your kind of like, oh, that's interesting, but, like, I only got one me, so I can't go do it. Because I think that's that's the most interesting to the audience,

41:02

and to and to ourselves. And that's actually the origin of the podcast. Me and Sam have more ideas than we have time to do them. And so we're like, well, if we just say them out loud here, maybe people will take them and run with them or or find something interesting in it. By the way, have you ever talked to Palmer Kevin? Kevin, that guy is

and to and to ourselves. And that's actually the origin of the podcast. Me and Sam have more ideas than we have time to do them. And so we're like, well, if we just say them out loud here, maybe people will take them and run with them or or find something interesting in it. By the way, have you ever talked to Palmer Kevin? Kevin, that guy is

41:16

Wild.

Wild.

41:17

No. I've never I've never chatted with them. I I I have to go back and listen to that episode though. I'm I'm really curious to know. I've I've I've seen some written interviews, but never never anything on video form. It went live yesterday. It's on like you our YouTube and,

No. I've never I've never chatted with them. I I I have to go back and listen to that episode though. I'm I'm really curious to know. I've I've I've seen some written interviews, but never never anything on video form. It went live yesterday. It's on like you our YouTube and,

41:31

most of our listenerships on, like, podcasts

most of our listenerships on, like, podcasts

41:34

feeds.

feeds.

41:34

He is

He is

41:36

he's something, man. That dude that guy's eclectic. He's just, like, enthusiastic about everything. He, like, knows a lot about a lot He's like biology,

he's something, man. That dude that guy's eclectic. He's just, like, enthusiastic about everything. He, like, knows a lot about a lot He's like biology,

41:44

but more,

but more,

41:47

but almost

but almost

41:48

he's as smart, but is more common. You know what I mean? Like, he's, for some reason, I can relate to him even though I know that he's just, like, so much more smarter than I am.

he's as smart, but is more common. You know what I mean? Like, he's, for some reason, I can relate to him even though I know that he's just, like, so much more smarter than I am.

41:57

Yeah. I I had read some stuff, and and I I don't know how much of his true, but some of his his company stuff that he was creating around drones for tracking people and and some of the

Yeah. I I had read some stuff, and and I I don't know how much of his true, but some of his his company stuff that he was creating around drones for tracking people and and some of the

42:07

social.

social.

42:08

Yeah. I just it doesn't it doesn't fit well with my ethos. So I I I haven't really followed his careers as closely, but, I'd be curious to listen to the interview for sure. I think it was probably it was probably our best guest episode.

Yeah. I just it doesn't it doesn't fit well with my ethos. So I I I haven't really followed his careers as closely, but, I'd be curious to listen to the interview for sure. I think it was probably it was probably our best guest episode.

42:22

And, like, we've done a bunch of them. And and the reason why is he's, like, you know, he's, like,

And, like, we've done a bunch of them. And and the reason why is he's, like, you know, he's, like,

42:28

a, he's, like, pretty gen

a, he's, like, pretty gen

42:30

he's pretty, a. He's high energy, but he's he's, like, direct. So it's, like,

he's pretty, a. He's high energy, but he's he's, like, direct. So it's, like,

42:36

You know, why why do you do this? Or how'd you think about this? And he's like, for example, he's like, I thought about, you know, I'm kinda overweight. Could I, like, solve obesity?

You know, why why do you do this? Or how'd you think about this? And he's like, for example, he's like, I thought about, you know, I'm kinda overweight. Could I, like, solve obesity?

42:45

And he's like, you know, but here's what doesn't work, telling me to eat less of foods that I don't like the taste of and blah blah blah. And so he's like, He's like, my solution

And he's like, you know, but here's what doesn't work, telling me to eat less of foods that I don't like the taste of and blah blah blah. And so he's like, He's like, my solution

42:54

was, and I started prototyping this in my house, was to just instead of Beyond meat and stuff that where they tried to make like a burger at a chickpeas,

was, and I started prototyping this in my house, was to just instead of Beyond meat and stuff that where they tried to make like a burger at a chickpeas,

43:01

is like, I wanted to just make fake food out of oil. Zero calorie food that tastes amazing because oil tastes amazing, and we can manipulate oil into anything. We could turn oil into candles. We could turn it into waxes. We could turn it into this, into that. He's like, I created a grilled cheese sandwich that was zero calorie that tasted delicious using mobile. And we're like, dude, that sounds kind of insane. And, like, he's like, the pro we're like, why didn't you do crazy idea. You sounded pretty passionate. You went pretty far. He's like, well, there just simply wasn't gonna be enough oil supply to do it. And he's like, we would have had to take the oil out of the sewage system and centrifuge it to the recycle it. He's like, I, and I realized, you know, even I couldn't do that. And I was like, wow, this guy is, like, you know, half genius,

is like, I wanted to just make fake food out of oil. Zero calorie food that tastes amazing because oil tastes amazing, and we can manipulate oil into anything. We could turn oil into candles. We could turn it into waxes. We could turn it into this, into that. He's like, I created a grilled cheese sandwich that was zero calorie that tasted delicious using mobile. And we're like, dude, that sounds kind of insane. And, like, he's like, the pro we're like, why didn't you do crazy idea. You sounded pretty passionate. You went pretty far. He's like, well, there just simply wasn't gonna be enough oil supply to do it. And he's like, we would have had to take the oil out of the sewage system and centrifuge it to the recycle it. He's like, I, and I realized, you know, even I couldn't do that. And I was like, wow, this guy is, like, you know, half genius,

43:43

half crazy. And I, you know, I don't even know where the line is, but I find it fascinating that he, a, thinks like this. And b, doesn't just think about it.

half crazy. And I, you know, I don't even know where the line is, but I find it fascinating that he, a, thinks like this. And b, doesn't just think about it.

43:51

You know, literally, it's like, yeah, in my house, we converted the dining room into, like, this lab in order to, like, do these, you know, these sorts of projects. And, like, you know, out of one of them came Emerald, the eight billion dollar company, and the other one was gonna be this crazy, like, you know, oil based fake food.

You know, literally, it's like, yeah, in my house, we converted the dining room into, like, this lab in order to, like, do these, you know, these sorts of projects. And, like, you know, out of one of them came Emerald, the eight billion dollar company, and the other one was gonna be this crazy, like, you know, oil based fake food.

44:08

That's crazy. That is awesome. I love yeah. See, that's the type of entrepreneurship that I'm I'm really drawn to. It's just like people that are hacking on stuff.

That's crazy. That is awesome. I love yeah. See, that's the type of entrepreneurship that I'm I'm really drawn to. It's just like people that are hacking on stuff.

44:16

At night. You know, for me,

At night. You know, for me,

44:18

a lot of the stuff that that I think about in that that vein, I tend to outsource and get other people to to to work on it

a lot of the stuff that that I think about in that that vein, I tend to outsource and get other people to to to work on it

44:26

A lot of this stuff around

A lot of this stuff around

44:28

longevity,

longevity,

44:29

I've been interested in, specifically,

I've been interested in, specifically,

44:32

a drug,

a drug,

44:33

called rapamycin

called rapamycin

44:34

where where it's been proven now to extend life and in in various animals and now apply to dog. So myself

where where it's been proven now to extend life and in in various animals and now apply to dog. So myself

44:41

and,

and,

44:43

Jack Dorothy and

Jack Dorothy and

44:44

Brian from Coinbase and a few others all have been putting money into funding studies out of the University of

Brian from Coinbase and a few others all have been putting money into funding studies out of the University of

44:50

Washington

Washington

44:51

to to really prove this out in dogs and canines and then eventually move it into human trials.

to to really prove this out in dogs and canines and then eventually move it into human trials.

44:56

So, you know, some of that stuff and the biohacking stuff, I I still put a lot of effort and time and and attention in. And I I try this stuff out on myself as well. You know, I'm I'm I'm trying some of these experimental things

So, you know, some of that stuff and the biohacking stuff, I I still put a lot of effort and time and and attention in. And I I try this stuff out on myself as well. You know, I'm I'm I'm trying some of these experimental things

45:08

not because I I'm not one of these people that wants to put, you know, young people's blood in them and live forever. I I I I wanna die. I just, you know, I I do like the idea of Not yet. Since I am an old but I am an older dad. I didn't have my first kid and and tell my four I thought I was forty. I I I would like to be around a little bit longer for them. That's that's all. Well, I've heard of people doing this. I know Tim's doing this with what's it called, silosilum,

not because I I'm not one of these people that wants to put, you know, young people's blood in them and live forever. I I I I wanna die. I just, you know, I I do like the idea of Not yet. Since I am an old but I am an older dad. I didn't have my first kid and and tell my four I thought I was forty. I I I would like to be around a little bit longer for them. That's that's all. Well, I've heard of people doing this. I know Tim's doing this with what's it called, silosilum,

45:33

like mushrooms.

like mushrooms.

45:34

Yeah.

Yeah.

45:37

And, how much does it cost to fund a study and what do you get out of it other than, like, the altruistic of like, well, we're just contributing to, like, the grand thing. But is there is there, like, a direct outcome that you can get from it? Like, we can use this to fund a company.

And, how much does it cost to fund a study and what do you get out of it other than, like, the altruistic of like, well, we're just contributing to, like, the grand thing. But is there is there, like, a direct outcome that you can get from it? Like, we can use this to fund a company.

45:50

No. No. Not not in this particular case. Yeah. Tim was also, put some money into this one as well. And there there was there's nothing you get out of it other than just trying to help further science you know, a lot of these,

No. No. Not not in this particular case. Yeah. Tim was also, put some money into this one as well. And there there was there's nothing you get out of it other than just trying to help further science you know, a lot of these,

46:01

in this particular case, the study was funded,

in this particular case, the study was funded,

46:04

but be

but be

46:06

depending on the sample size and how many canines you have them involved, you can only detect,

depending on the sample size and how many canines you have them involved, you can only detect,

46:12

certain levels

certain levels

46:13

of, of,

of, of,

46:15

of output.

of output.

46:17

You need a larger sample base. And this is called, like, a properly powered study in order to detect smaller little nuances in the data.

You need a larger sample base. And this is called, like, a properly powered study in order to detect smaller little nuances in the data.

46:25

And so we wanted to make sure it was powered enough to detect, I believe up to ten percent lifespan increase.

And so we wanted to make sure it was powered enough to detect, I believe up to ten percent lifespan increase.

46:31

And so to power it,

And so to power it,

46:33

was to add another million dollars or so into the study,

was to add another million dollars or so into the study,

46:36

to to make sure that what they could bring on the additional canines required to make that happen.

to to make sure that what they could bring on the additional canines required to make that happen.

46:40

And,

And,

46:41

you know, I put my dog on it as well. And and I and he's,

you know, I put my dog on it as well. And and I and he's,

46:44

twelve now, and he still runs around, like, a pup. And and,

twelve now, and he still runs around, like, a pup. And and,

46:48

I attribute some of that to to a cycle of this that he did.

I attribute some of that to to a cycle of this that he did.

46:53

But, yeah, it's it's nothing other than just, like, you you you're figuring out ways in which you can, like, there's there's all these different avenues

But, yeah, it's it's nothing other than just, like, you you you're figuring out ways in which you can, like, there's there's all these different avenues

47:02

on the philanthropic side where you're you're like, what what is meaningful to me personally? And,

on the philanthropic side where you're you're like, what what is meaningful to me personally? And,

47:08

this this this particular study, you know, I think even if it just worked for dogs would be fantastic. Like, Forget humans. If if I could have my dog live for an additional five years, like, what a win? You know? So that it was kind of a a win win study. Dude, I I talked this guy that was like building I think it was called

this this this particular study, you know, I think even if it just worked for dogs would be fantastic. Like, Forget humans. If if I could have my dog live for an additional five years, like, what a win? You know? So that it was kind of a a win win study. Dude, I I talked this guy that was like building I think it was called

47:25

is it called a ageless Rx? I forget his the name of his company, but he was he's trying to, like, you know, do longevity stuff,

is it called a ageless Rx? I forget his the name of his company, but he was he's trying to, like, you know, do longevity stuff,

47:33

supplements and shit like that. And, things are going well for him. But I he was kinda explaining his reasoning. He was like, you know, a lot of people are afraid to take these medicines, but we've been thinking

supplements and shit like that. And, things are going well for him. But I he was kinda explaining his reasoning. He was like, you know, a lot of people are afraid to take these medicines, but we've been thinking

47:43

if we told them it's good for their dog, They're actually we'll give it to their dog. And he was he was kinda like hypothesizing

if we told them it's good for their dog, They're actually we'll give it to their dog. And he was he was kinda like hypothesizing

47:51

to me and, like, brainstorming with me in real time. He was like, maybe we should just, like, do this for dogs and just give it to dogs. And if what people see that it makes their dog live longer, then they'll be like, yeah, you know, fuck Give me that pill. I'll take that thing. Because there's there's so much easier to commence to for to give it to their dog. I'm with Kevin. Oh, for sure. I think humans die. So dogs live forever.

to me and, like, brainstorming with me in real time. He was like, maybe we should just, like, do this for dogs and just give it to dogs. And if what people see that it makes their dog live longer, then they'll be like, yeah, you know, fuck Give me that pill. I'll take that thing. Because there's there's so much easier to commence to for to give it to their dog. I'm with Kevin. Oh, for sure. I think humans die. So dogs live forever.

48:13

Well, genome wise, there's so much more overlap and and and and in connection there between canines and humans, and there is a lot of other animals out there. So

Well, genome wise, there's so much more overlap and and and and in connection there between canines and humans, and there is a lot of other animals out there. So

48:21

but, you know, the back to your question though about,

but, you know, the back to your question though about,

48:24

you know, at out of curiosity, what what would I go pursue right now in terms of startups that I'm not doing

you know, at out of curiosity, what what would I go pursue right now in terms of startups that I'm not doing

48:31

I believe, and it's very, very clear now

I believe, and it's very, very clear now

48:34

that AI

that AI

48:36

in the next five years is gonna change everything.

in the next five years is gonna change everything.

48:40

We're seeing open open AI and a lot of the projects that they put out there recently,

We're seeing open open AI and a lot of the projects that they put out there recently,

48:45

whether it be creative writing or I believe fiber as a company will just be non existent.

whether it be creative writing or I believe fiber as a company will just be non existent.

48:51

It's gonna destroy the low end of the creative market initially and then work its way up the chain. And, you know, just the

It's gonna destroy the low end of the creative market initially and then work its way up the chain. And, you know, just the

48:59

the outputs that you're getting now from prompt based art.

the outputs that you're getting now from prompt based art.

49:03

You know, the future versions of Photoshop are are not gonna be about moving

You know, the future versions of Photoshop are are not gonna be about moving

49:07

mouse and pixels around, it's just gonna be telling the computer what to do on your behalf. You know, you'll highlight an area and say, you know, change this aspect and and it'll all be done via prompt and and meaning you type in what you wanna see change in the AI, well, we'll just make it happen. And we're seeing that today.

mouse and pixels around, it's just gonna be telling the computer what to do on your behalf. You know, you'll highlight an area and say, you know, change this aspect and and it'll all be done via prompt and and meaning you type in what you wanna see change in the AI, well, we'll just make it happen. And we're seeing that today.

49:23

And I'm seeing you know, advancements on the AI side in in in medicine.

And I'm seeing you know, advancements on the AI side in in in medicine.

49:28

Obviously, all the creative side, there's,

Obviously, all the creative side, there's,

49:31

probably a half dozen or so tools now that will complete,

probably a half dozen or so tools now that will complete,

49:35

you know, write complete paragraphs for you. If you're writing sci fi, you give it some initial kind of prompts of where you want the story to go. And the writing is quite good. A, I have no doubt in the next five years, we'll see a New York Times bestseller that was ninety percent written by AI. So it's it's

you know, write complete paragraphs for you. If you're writing sci fi, you give it some initial kind of prompts of where you want the story to go. And the writing is quite good. A, I have no doubt in the next five years, we'll see a New York Times bestseller that was ninety percent written by AI. So it's it's

49:52

there's just so much interest

there's just so much interest

49:54

and with the interest and excitement flows the engineering talent. So I've seen a lot of,

and with the interest and excitement flows the engineering talent. So I've seen a lot of,

50:02

friends that are these, you know, a lot of people who I worked with at Google and and other places where you know, they're they're very insanely amazing engineers, you know, previously working on distributed systems and some of these hard problems that they were trying to solve. And now I said, Hey, I'm I'm actually gonna pivot into this this new world of AI. And anytime you watch, that kind of flow of high quality engineering talent and go move into something you you you pay attention. So I'm looking for at a lot of investments in that particular sector

friends that are these, you know, a lot of people who I worked with at Google and and other places where you know, they're they're very insanely amazing engineers, you know, previously working on distributed systems and some of these hard problems that they were trying to solve. And now I said, Hey, I'm I'm actually gonna pivot into this this new world of AI. And anytime you watch, that kind of flow of high quality engineering talent and go move into something you you you pay attention. So I'm looking for at a lot of investments in that particular sector

50:32

and I'm I'm very bullish on it. And something I don't have time to work on, but I I believe some great businesses are gonna be built there.

and I'm I'm very bullish on it. And something I don't have time to work on, but I I believe some great businesses are gonna be built there.

50:38

What would be an application you would wanna do in that space? So all those kind of like threads where it's like, creative work, medicine,

What would be an application you would wanna do in that space? So all those kind of like threads where it's like, creative work, medicine,

50:46

you know, writing an AI book, is there an application that you can think of that you're like, I feel like AI could solve this because I think that's that's it's a hammer in search of nails at this point. That's when I talked to him. Sean, you made a joke. You made a joke. I I I've always teased Sean about web three because I'm not the biggest fan of it. And he was and we were joking about how

you know, writing an AI book, is there an application that you can think of that you're like, I feel like AI could solve this because I think that's that's it's a hammer in search of nails at this point. That's when I talked to him. Sean, you made a joke. You made a joke. I I I've always teased Sean about web three because I'm not the biggest fan of it. And he was and we were joking about how

51:05

was, like, coming up with ideas with with AI. He's, like, finally a use case. We found it. And, like, with AI, it seems like there's actually way more obvious use cases. Right? But, yeah, what what application excites you? Oh, I'd love to have that web three debate at some point too. But, on on the AI side,

was, like, coming up with ideas with with AI. He's, like, finally a use case. We found it. And, like, with AI, it seems like there's actually way more obvious use cases. Right? But, yeah, what what application excites you? Oh, I'd love to have that web three debate at some point too. But, on on the AI side,

51:21

You know, it we're already seeing this. Right? So so Figma was purchased by Adobe. You probably all saw that. It was crazy acquisition.

You know, it we're already seeing this. Right? So so Figma was purchased by Adobe. You probably all saw that. It was crazy acquisition.

51:28

You know, probably the the the the the standard these days for prototyping

You know, probably the the the the the standard these days for prototyping

51:33

and and creating

and and creating

51:34

interfaces for everything from mobile apps to websites to to you name it.

interfaces for everything from mobile apps to websites to to you name it.

51:39

We're seeing,

We're seeing,

51:40

already built in plugins to Figma,

already built in plugins to Figma,

51:43

that allow you to prompt base build,

that allow you to prompt base build,

51:46

anything. In in just a matter of seconds. So you can say, hey, give me an interface for a mobile app that has these five options,

anything. In in just a matter of seconds. So you can say, hey, give me an interface for a mobile app that has these five options,

51:53

in this color with this futuristic type style and you know, you get something back in real time in in in twenty five seconds.

in this color with this futuristic type style and you know, you get something back in real time in in in twenty five seconds.

52:01

And it's it's rough, but it's giving my design team and other designers out there

And it's it's rough, but it's giving my design team and other designers out there

52:07

just a great starting point, and it saves them a ton of time and effort. But this is like inning one, like two three years from now, it'll be doing ninety percent of the work versus, you know, the first right now is probably twenty percent of the work. So,

just a great starting point, and it saves them a ton of time and effort. But this is like inning one, like two three years from now, it'll be doing ninety percent of the work versus, you know, the first right now is probably twenty percent of the work. So,

52:20

that is is is super exciting in the assistance and and time to market for new ideas, new projects. I think is gonna be compressed even further. It's it's the same thing that we what happened with the kind of like late web too when we went from racking our own servers to fully deployed in an in an automated and managed, you know, AWS instances that, in in some of these databases that just auto scaled as you threw traffic at it, it it really compressed the time to to go to market time, you know, by quite a bit. And I think we'll see the same thing on the on the design side. So the speed at which we can develop,

that is is is super exciting in the assistance and and time to market for new ideas, new projects. I think is gonna be compressed even further. It's it's the same thing that we what happened with the kind of like late web too when we went from racking our own servers to fully deployed in an in an automated and managed, you know, AWS instances that, in in some of these databases that just auto scaled as you threw traffic at it, it it really compressed the time to to go to market time, you know, by quite a bit. And I think we'll see the same thing on the on the design side. So the speed at which we can develop,

52:56

and deploy new ideas is just gonna be, you know, probably,

and deploy new ideas is just gonna be, you know, probably,

53:01

an order order of magnitude better than it is today.

an order order of magnitude better than it is today.

53:04

So I'm excited for that. Where do you,

So I'm excited for that. Where do you,

53:07

a question that we started asking people, and it's actually,

a question that we started asking people, and it's actually,

53:11

I've always learned so much from this, but

I've always learned so much from this, but

53:13

What message boards or Facebook groups or websites?

What message boards or Facebook groups or websites?

53:18

What corners of the web are you lurking in right now? Like, for me, I I love Facebook group. There's always like a weird Facebook group. Like,

What corners of the web are you lurking in right now? Like, for me, I I love Facebook group. There's always like a weird Facebook group. Like,

53:25

a tiny example is overlanding. Because you know what overlanding is, it's like No. It's like,

a tiny example is overlanding. Because you know what overlanding is, it's like No. It's like,

53:30

I don't know the exact definition, but it's like, you know how you see, like, Toyota forerunners or f one fifties that have, like, campers on it, and it looks like they can go in the desert for, like, two weeks. So I started like joining overlanding groups, like, three years ago because I was like, oh, this is a kind of an interesting turn that's picking up or another one that we got really into a couple years ago was mobility. So, like, all these grown men, not caring about yoga, but they called it mobility, and it was all about, like, stretching. And it's like, what's going on with there's, like, all these weird Instagram guys, like, doing all this stretching shit, it's kind of intriguing. And, like, a lot of times, it's like, instead of instead of therapy, executive coaching,

I don't know the exact definition, but it's like, you know how you see, like, Toyota forerunners or f one fifties that have, like, campers on it, and it looks like they can go in the desert for, like, two weeks. So I started like joining overlanding groups, like, three years ago because I was like, oh, this is a kind of an interesting turn that's picking up or another one that we got really into a couple years ago was mobility. So, like, all these grown men, not caring about yoga, but they called it mobility, and it was all about, like, stretching. And it's like, what's going on with there's, like, all these weird Instagram guys, like, doing all this stretching shit, it's kind of intriguing. And, like, a lot of times, it's like, instead of instead of therapy, executive coaching,

54:05

you know, that's what happened from,

you know, that's what happened from,

54:07

from yoga to mobility.

from yoga to mobility.

54:09

Yeah. They just changed, like, mayo, Naomi.

Yeah. They just changed, like, mayo, Naomi.

54:11

And, it totally worked. It's awesome. Like, I love mobility now, and, like, For example,

And, it totally worked. It's awesome. Like, I love mobility now, and, like, For example,

54:16

for the body stuff, Tim Ferris was always pretty good at that. Like, he'd be talking about all this weird stuff, like, fasting. It's like, dude, what the hell is this fasting thing? What are you talking about?

for the body stuff, Tim Ferris was always pretty good at that. Like, he'd be talking about all this weird stuff, like, fasting. It's like, dude, what the hell is this fasting thing? What are you talking about?

54:24

And, that was, like, a really cool corner of the web to, like, look in on and, like, see, like, how are the Geeks behaving now? So I can learn, like, how the rest of the normal, like, average Joe is gonna care about in the next five or ten years. Yeah. There's that Chris Dixon quote. You're familiar with it?

And, that was, like, a really cool corner of the web to, like, look in on and, like, see, like, how are the Geeks behaving now? So I can learn, like, how the rest of the normal, like, average Joe is gonna care about in the next five or ten years. Yeah. There's that Chris Dixon quote. You're familiar with it?

54:40

It's just what the geeks who are playing with on the weekends will become, like, what if we're all using, like, if several years later. Something some version of that. Yeah. So, like, what geeky places are you hanging right now. For for for Sean Knight, like, a lot of Twitter people. So we'll find, like, specific people on Twitter who are, like, quirky. And we're, like, what the hell is this guy talking? He's talking crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's really cool. Yeah. I mean, I I follow a ton of people in in crypto Twitter. So I I pay attention to all the, you know, the what's happening on web three via via,

It's just what the geeks who are playing with on the weekends will become, like, what if we're all using, like, if several years later. Something some version of that. Yeah. So, like, what geeky places are you hanging right now. For for for Sean Knight, like, a lot of Twitter people. So we'll find, like, specific people on Twitter who are, like, quirky. And we're, like, what the hell is this guy talking? He's talking crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's really cool. Yeah. I mean, I I follow a ton of people in in crypto Twitter. So I I pay attention to all the, you know, the what's happening on web three via via,

55:06

Twitter, and then also,

Twitter, and then also,

55:08

you know, mostly discord. It's just a lot of private discords. It's a lot of private telegrams, small groups and gatherings of peers that get together, discuss new ideas, new projects. These dows, these decentralized autonomous organizations where people get together

you know, mostly discord. It's just a lot of private discords. It's a lot of private telegrams, small groups and gatherings of peers that get together, discuss new ideas, new projects. These dows, these decentralized autonomous organizations where people get together

55:19

to

to

55:24

discuss and collect and purchase things.

discuss and collect and purchase things.

55:27

So it it it's a lot of

So it it it's a lot of

55:29

I I've never spent so much time in Discord. It's like, it's crazy that the conversation has shifted there in in Twitter largely.

I I've never spent so much time in Discord. It's like, it's crazy that the conversation has shifted there in in Twitter largely.

55:37

Dude, I hate that, by the way. I love the fact that like a dig or a Reddit or something exists where you can just, like, if you googled it and found it, like, you could participate.

Dude, I hate that, by the way. I love the fact that like a dig or a Reddit or something exists where you can just, like, if you googled it and found it, like, you could participate.

55:46

Now I'm like, oh, what the fuck, man? Kevin's probably got this craziest telegram that, like, there's I don't even I can't get in because I don't even know exists. No. You can join proof. It's fifty thousand dollars and you're in, bro. It's easy.

Now I'm like, oh, what the fuck, man? Kevin's probably got this craziest telegram that, like, there's I don't even I can't get in because I don't even know exists. No. You can join proof. It's fifty thousand dollars and you're in, bro. It's easy.

55:58

No. It's I I think it's more, like, it's

No. It's I I think it's more, like, it's

56:02

people realize that,

people realize that,

56:06

They wanted a little bit more intimate conversation. So I I have a feeling that, like, there was a there was a lot of of this move to do smaller private discords

They wanted a little bit more intimate conversation. So I I have a feeling that, like, there was a there was a lot of of this move to do smaller private discords

56:14

and smaller tail ground groups because it would lead to

and smaller tail ground groups because it would lead to

56:18

just not the masses flooding in and and the chaos that you would see on Reddit And so I I that's kind of been the move that that I've seen in in the the the reason behind a a lot of that. But

just not the masses flooding in and and the chaos that you would see on Reddit And so I I that's kind of been the move that that I've seen in in the the the reason behind a a lot of that. But

56:31

it's not hard to get into that. You just have to actually show them that you you know what you're doing. Like, you have to, you know, get in there and embrace web three, which it sounds like Sam, you may not be the biggest fan of, but you have to you have to get in there and and and and talk the talk and know where to go and

it's not hard to get into that. You just have to actually show them that you you know what you're doing. Like, you have to, you know, get in there and embrace web three, which it sounds like Sam, you may not be the biggest fan of, but you have to you have to get in there and and and and talk the talk and know where to go and

56:47

People will tell you, like, this is the place to be hanging out, or I'm I'm enjoying this discord over here, and you'll learn about this. And this is where the AI discords are or whatever it may be. And

People will tell you, like, this is the place to be hanging out, or I'm I'm enjoying this discord over here, and you'll learn about this. And this is where the AI discords are or whatever it may be. And

56:56

That's just kind of the new it's the new Facebook. Facebook's,

That's just kind of the new it's the new Facebook. Facebook's,

57:00

it it's it's it's I'm sure it's good for some things, but it's it's it's dead when it comes to web three. You want me to tell you my why I'm not a fan of this and you can't please. I'm gonna get you I'm gonna try and get you fired up here and then we're talking about let's let's try. Talk about proof. I do. It sounds like I'm making an easy out, which I kinda am, but basically, like, I am I'm I'm I'm decently educated just by hanging out with Sean. And so I have to admit that, like, some of my beliefs are a little bit loosely held,

it it's it's it's I'm sure it's good for some things, but it's it's it's dead when it comes to web three. You want me to tell you my why I'm not a fan of this and you can't please. I'm gonna get you I'm gonna try and get you fired up here and then we're talking about let's let's try. Talk about proof. I do. It sounds like I'm making an easy out, which I kinda am, but basically, like, I am I'm I'm I'm decently educated just by hanging out with Sean. And so I have to admit that, like, some of my beliefs are a little bit loosely held,

57:26

and and I'm not the most educated on the topic, but my opinion on web three is basically, it's a bunch of, like, It's just this kind of circular economy of a bunch of people making

and and I'm not the most educated on the topic, but my opinion on web three is basically, it's a bunch of, like, It's just this kind of circular economy of a bunch of people making

57:37

making products to serve an industry that has yet to, like, truly figure

making products to serve an industry that has yet to, like, truly figure

57:42

out I don't know what you called industry of movement that has yet to truly figure out, like, what the what the thing is that they're doing. And there's so many examples where people I think are fairly, like, egotistical and elitists about it saying, like,

out I don't know what you called industry of movement that has yet to truly figure out, like, what the what the thing is that they're doing. And there's so many examples where people I think are fairly, like, egotistical and elitists about it saying, like,

57:55

web two point o is old and, like, the way this has to be decentralized or this has to be this way. It's like, man, just because you're putting web three in front of something, that doesn't mean that there's actually a problem here. And I think you're just wasting so much time and energy working on something that is just like a circle jerk that doesn't actually

web two point o is old and, like, the way this has to be decentralized or this has to be this way. It's like, man, just because you're putting web three in front of something, that doesn't mean that there's actually a problem here. And I think you're just wasting so much time and energy working on something that is just like a circle jerk that doesn't actually

58:11

solve a problem better than the web point web two point o version. Also, I thought it's pretty dogmatic where it's like, decentralize everything. It's like, dude, I want some stuff centralized. Like, can you imagine like calling customer service on a decentralized, like it's like, no. I like, there are some things that I want, like, to have a to to be centralized. And I thought that they were a little bit too dogmatic, and I thought that they were oftentimes

solve a problem better than the web point web two point o version. Also, I thought it's pretty dogmatic where it's like, decentralize everything. It's like, dude, I want some stuff centralized. Like, can you imagine like calling customer service on a decentralized, like it's like, no. I like, there are some things that I want, like, to have a to to be centralized. And I thought that they were a little bit too dogmatic, and I thought that they were oftentimes

58:33

I'm saying like, day. Like, you people,

I'm saying like, day. Like, you people,

58:35

like you guys, like, didn't

like you guys, like, didn't

58:37

always have wonderful solutions. You were just making shit up. In order to, like, get in the game, and I just thought that it it kind of bothered me.

always have wonderful solutions. You were just making shit up. In order to, like, get in the game, and I just thought that it it kind of bothered me.

58:46

Yeah. I mean, I I I feel your frustration there and that I too am am someone that,

Yeah. I mean, I I I feel your frustration there and that I too am am someone that,

58:53

when I look at what's being built in web three, if it's it's just for the sake of calling being decentralized, and there's nothing behind it or no structural advantage for that being the case.

when I look at what's being built in web three, if it's it's just for the sake of calling being decentralized, and there's nothing behind it or no structural advantage for that being the case.

59:04

I think it's it's it's it's silly. You know, it's like, I'll I'll give you a great example.

I think it's it's it's it's silly. You know, it's like, I'll I'll give you a great example.

59:10

We're we're working on

We're we're working on

59:12

There there's a lot of things that you wanna do in web three. Some of them are high value and some of them are are low value when you were talking about working with the community. So we have a community of people that come together to do all all different types of things. And some of it is what we call token gated content. So it's like a membership model where you have to be a member of something that will hold a certain NFT in order to unlock certain access to videos or content or whatever it may be. Some of those things can be high value,

There there's a lot of things that you wanna do in web three. Some of them are high value and some of them are are low value when you were talking about working with the community. So we have a community of people that come together to do all all different types of things. And some of it is what we call token gated content. So it's like a membership model where you have to be a member of something that will hold a certain NFT in order to unlock certain access to videos or content or whatever it may be. Some of those things can be high value,

59:37

items where you receive it in T or something that is, actually has some financial,

items where you receive it in T or something that is, actually has some financial,

59:42

like, you know, something behind it. That is a case where you wanna actually have that hardware wallet and pull it out and and do it in a way that is secure

like, you know, something behind it. That is a case where you wanna actually have that hardware wallet and pull it out and and do it in a way that is secure

59:50

and that is protected.

and that is protected.

59:52

And,

And,

59:53

but

but

59:54

The rest of the time you don't need that, you can use a Google login. It's okay to use a web two login. It's okay to use your email and password with two factor authentication.

The rest of the time you don't need that, you can use a Google login. It's okay to use a web two login. It's okay to use your email and password with two factor authentication.

01:00:03

Like, we don't have to throw away a lot of the fantastic technology that's been built in web two. There's other things, like, for example,

Like, we don't have to throw away a lot of the fantastic technology that's been built in web two. There's other things, like, for example,

01:00:11

some decentralized,

some decentralized,

01:00:13

maximalist. And I think maximalist

maximalist. And I think maximalist

01:00:15

is really what we're talking about here because anyone that is a maximalist

is really what we're talking about here because anyone that is a maximalist

01:00:21

on I mean, so this means what? You're just, like, extreme and extremist. It just means that you are so into something that you can't see any other way. And it's, like, it's your way or there there's no possible. There are people out there that say there is no other cryptocurrency than Bitcoin. That's the only one. Isn't it? Pomp pumps are our our our buddy. Isn't pop? Like, don't they call him online? Like, a Bitcoin maxi?

on I mean, so this means what? You're just, like, extreme and extremist. It just means that you are so into something that you can't see any other way. And it's, like, it's your way or there there's no possible. There are people out there that say there is no other cryptocurrency than Bitcoin. That's the only one. Isn't it? Pomp pumps are our our our buddy. Isn't pop? Like, don't they call him online? Like, a Bitcoin maxi?

01:00:43

He I don't think he I think he is a max on Bitcoin. And and, you know, Dorsey's in that camp too where he's like trying to extend Bitcoin and says that's that's kind of the only currency.

He I don't think he I think he is a max on Bitcoin. And and, you know, Dorsey's in that camp too where he's like trying to extend Bitcoin and says that's that's kind of the only currency.

01:00:52

And I I think this applies to so many different things. Like, I don't wanna get into to political talk, but anytime you get to the fringes of anything where it's like this is the only thing that matters, you get into Crazy Town in my point of view. And so, you know, I think that is a danger of web three where there's a lot of that kind of idea that if if it's not pure web three, it's not right. And

And I I think this applies to so many different things. Like, I don't wanna get into to political talk, but anytime you get to the fringes of anything where it's like this is the only thing that matters, you get into Crazy Town in my point of view. And so, you know, I think that is a danger of web three where there's a lot of that kind of idea that if if it's not pure web three, it's not right. And

01:01:15

I'm with you. I a hundred percent agree. But that said,

I'm with you. I a hundred percent agree. But that said,

01:01:18

like, I've seen this idea and a lot of the defy tooling when I say defy, I mean, decentralized finance.

like, I've seen this idea and a lot of the defy tooling when I say defy, I mean, decentralized finance.

01:01:25

A lot of the defy tooling that's being built on the blockchain

A lot of the defy tooling that's being built on the blockchain

01:01:28

in a performant way in a cost effective way in a way that when you think about Wells Fargo as an organization

in a performant way in a cost effective way in a way that when you think about Wells Fargo as an organization

01:01:35

with, you know, a hundred and fifty thousand employees, I'm making that up by maybe it's fifty thousand or seventy five thousand. It's somewhere between that that range, where that is just a lot of bloat. And it and because of that bloat and because of that ins an insane

with, you know, a hundred and fifty thousand employees, I'm making that up by maybe it's fifty thousand or seventy five thousand. It's somewhere between that that range, where that is just a lot of bloat. And it and because of that bloat and because of that ins an insane

01:01:49

monthly, not that that company has to cover,

monthly, not that that company has to cover,

01:01:53

you know, that those dollars are are not not flowing to the right people. And so there are examples

you know, that those dollars are are not not flowing to the right people. And so there are examples

01:01:58

of more efficient ways of doing finance

of more efficient ways of doing finance

01:02:01

on the blockchain that that can be done in a trustless way

on the blockchain that that can be done in a trustless way

01:02:06

written into smart contract code

written into smart contract code

01:02:08

that will mean for better outcomes for the consumer.

that will mean for better outcomes for the consumer.

01:02:11

Now those can be paired with centralized solutions.

Now those can be paired with centralized solutions.

01:02:15

Right? Like,

Right? Like,

01:02:16

Coinbase is a centralized organization.

Coinbase is a centralized organization.

01:02:19

You have a email address that you can send it if something is wrong with your crypt account, but they hold and keep decentralized

You have a email address that you can send it if something is wrong with your crypt account, but they hold and keep decentralized

01:02:25

currency. Right? And they and they do things like decentralized staking where you earn four percent on your Ethereum, but they're a centralized company that gives you that customer support. So I'm not I'm I'm a f I think that the the ones that really win here, yes, there are gonna be the people that say self custody is the only way. They there's this famous saying that If it's not your keys, it's not your crypto. Like, like, you have to hold your own private keys. I I'm not in that camp. I do that. Personally and use safety deposit box and a whole slew of things to safeguard that for some things, but there's other solutions where where a hybrid approach makes more sense. So know that your argument is completely valid

currency. Right? And they and they do things like decentralized staking where you earn four percent on your Ethereum, but they're a centralized company that gives you that customer support. So I'm not I'm I'm a f I think that the the ones that really win here, yes, there are gonna be the people that say self custody is the only way. They there's this famous saying that If it's not your keys, it's not your crypto. Like, like, you have to hold your own private keys. I I'm not in that camp. I do that. Personally and use safety deposit box and a whole slew of things to safeguard that for some things, but there's other solutions where where a hybrid approach makes more sense. So know that your argument is completely valid

01:03:05

and that a lot of entrepreneurs that are building a web three completely agree with you and that Let's not throw away the baby with the bathwater here. There's a lot of great things, but there are also some great advantages

and that a lot of entrepreneurs that are building a web three completely agree with you and that Let's not throw away the baby with the bathwater here. There's a lot of great things, but there are also some great advantages

01:03:17

that come with being,

that come with being,

01:03:18

decentralized

decentralized

01:03:19

or a whole slew of other technologists

or a whole slew of other technologists

01:03:21

that's being built on web three,

that's being built on web three,

01:03:24

that that I could point to that you'd say like, oh, that, yeah, that actually, that that does make more sense than the old way of doing things. So so let's let's do this real quick. So you've probably seen just like anybody else, these, like,

that that I could point to that you'd say like, oh, that, yeah, that actually, that that does make more sense than the old way of doing things. So so let's let's do this real quick. So you've probably seen just like anybody else, these, like,

01:03:35

there's, like, these permanent,

there's, like, these permanent,

01:03:37

like, just like there's perm of bulls for crypto, there's perma bears, and their mission in life is to basically find every stupid use case of crypto and highlight it or every bad investment or every Sure. Clip of a a pro, you know, some dude at a sixteen z who goes on a podcast and says something dumb about crypto when asked about a use case. And you're talking about me because I was just on their podcast two weeks guess. No. No. They I haven't seen that. You're you're six people,

like, just like there's perm of bulls for crypto, there's perma bears, and their mission in life is to basically find every stupid use case of crypto and highlight it or every bad investment or every Sure. Clip of a a pro, you know, some dude at a sixteen z who goes on a podcast and says something dumb about crypto when asked about a use case. And you're talking about me because I was just on their podcast two weeks guess. No. No. They I haven't seen that. You're you're six people,

01:04:01

but Dixon.

but Dixon.

01:04:02

But, like, you know, there's there's people that sort of are are are focused on on poking holes. And I think there's some value in poking holes, but there's also, you know, it's a little embarrassing to spend your whole day poking holes on something, you know,

But, like, you know, there's there's people that sort of are are are focused on on poking holes. And I think there's some value in poking holes, but there's also, you know, it's a little embarrassing to spend your whole day poking holes on something, you know,

01:04:13

but let let's put it this way.

but let let's put it this way.

01:04:15

I'm a on this podcast, I'm the the crypto

I'm a on this podcast, I'm the the crypto

01:04:18

believer. I'm the one who puts a significant portion of my net worth. I have a crypto media company. I have a bunch of belief in crypto.

believer. I'm the one who puts a significant portion of my net worth. I have a crypto media company. I have a bunch of belief in crypto.

01:04:24

But for this use kit for this exercise here, I'm gonna

But for this use kit for this exercise here, I'm gonna

01:04:28

point out two things that I think,

point out two things that I think,

01:04:31

would be would be, you know, strong

would be would be, you know, strong

01:04:33

and valid points against crypto to somebody like you who is also a a crypto believer. So I want you to kinda you against these. And I hope that, this doesn't get clipped as, like, you know, famous investor x fumbles the ball, when trying to explain, you know, crypto things. So let's try to do better than that. Yeah. Let's do it. Okay. So the first would be around,

and valid points against crypto to somebody like you who is also a a crypto believer. So I want you to kinda you against these. And I hope that, this doesn't get clipped as, like, you know, famous investor x fumbles the ball, when trying to explain, you know, crypto things. So let's try to do better than that. Yeah. Let's do it. Okay. So the first would be around,

01:04:51

NFTs. Right? So you're a big NFT guy, and there's NFT art, which I think pretty hard to argue against at this point. Like, digital art, cool their ability to own digital art. That's one use case for entities.

NFTs. Right? So you're a big NFT guy, and there's NFT art, which I think pretty hard to argue against at this point. Like, digital art, cool their ability to own digital art. That's one use case for entities.

01:05:02

Mhmm. But a lot of people who believe in entities will also say But that's just the beginning, NFTs is, is a file format. It's a protocol. There's all these different use cases

Mhmm. But a lot of people who believe in entities will also say But that's just the beginning, NFTs is, is a file format. It's a protocol. There's all these different use cases

01:05:11

for NFTs.

for NFTs.

01:05:12

And, I saw the founder of of Opensey, I think, talking about this yesterday on a on a podcast where he's like, they're like, why? You know, he's like, another use cases, NFT tickets. And they're like, so why would there why would you wanna have a NFT ticket? He's like, well, because

And, I saw the founder of of Opensey, I think, talking about this yesterday on a on a podcast where he's like, they're like, why? You know, he's like, another use cases, NFT tickets. And they're like, so why would there why would you wanna have a NFT ticket? He's like, well, because

01:05:26

then

then

01:05:27

you it's you know, you could plug it into defy and you could take a loan against your ticket. And then people were like, why the fuck would I wanna take a loan against my sixty dollar, like, concert ticket. Like, is that really what the hype is about? It's sort of a silly use case. So I would like you to give me the non silly

you it's you know, you could plug it into defy and you could take a loan against your ticket. And then people were like, why the fuck would I wanna take a loan against my sixty dollar, like, concert ticket. Like, is that really what the hype is about? It's sort of a silly use case. So I would like you to give me the non silly

01:05:43

NFT use cases that you're excited about. So, like Yeah. And

NFT use cases that you're excited about. So, like Yeah. And

01:05:47

the Well, let's let's take a quick step.

the Well, let's let's take a quick step.

01:05:50

Let's take the ticket example and and the art one is easy. It's a new canvas. Let let let's actually let's cover that first. The art one is easy. It's a new canvas. You can do things and pull from,

Let's take the ticket example and and the art one is easy. It's a new canvas. Let let let's actually let's cover that first. The art one is easy. It's a new canvas. You can do things and pull from,

01:06:01

real time data to display art in very unique, fun creative ways. Right? Like, it's it's really not that much different than your than Rolex's. I mean, like, there's no reason why Rolex is a hundred and fifty thousand dollars other than, like, a lot of people think it's cool.

real time data to display art in very unique, fun creative ways. Right? Like, it's it's really not that much different than your than Rolex's. I mean, like, there's no reason why Rolex is a hundred and fifty thousand dollars other than, like, a lot of people think it's cool.

01:06:14

Yeah. Well, I would say there's a difference there because it was something you may not know about Rolex as they make over a million Rolex's per year. And so Rolex, it hides that number. And the reason they hide that number is because if they didn't have a sense of scarcity around it, And they they do this specifically when you go in their stores. There'll always be a if next let me walk by an actual true Rolex boutique. Notice how there's, like, some missing spots.

Yeah. Well, I would say there's a difference there because it was something you may not know about Rolex as they make over a million Rolex's per year. And so Rolex, it hides that number. And the reason they hide that number is because if they didn't have a sense of scarcity around it, And they they do this specifically when you go in their stores. There'll always be a if next let me walk by an actual true Rolex boutique. Notice how there's, like, some missing spots.

01:06:38

And and when you go inside, and that's all play. It's play because they're like, oh, they're they're sold out. They're not available. But we can put you on this list. And in in three to four months, we might you might get a phone call. Guess what? You always get the phone call. And and the the watch is coming because there's they're making a million a year. The nice thing about

And and when you go inside, and that's all play. It's play because they're like, oh, they're they're sold out. They're not available. But we can put you on this list. And in in three to four months, we might you might get a phone call. Guess what? You always get the phone call. And and the the watch is coming because there's they're making a million a year. The nice thing about

01:06:55

you know, the the one of the things that I was always so confused by is I was a common comic book collector way back in the day. And I bought wolverine number one because I love wolverine. It was, like, my childhood. Like, I always wanted to own one. Right? And so I bought wolverine number one, And it always hovered around fifty dollars. And I was like, why is this not going up? It's the very first wolverine

you know, the the one of the things that I was always so confused by is I was a common comic book collector way back in the day. And I bought wolverine number one because I love wolverine. It was, like, my childhood. Like, I always wanted to own one. Right? And so I bought wolverine number one, And it always hovered around fifty dollars. And I was like, why is this not going up? It's the very first wolverine

01:07:16

launched in the eighties. Right? It wasn't the first appearance of wolverine, the first Wolverine comic.

launched in the eighties. Right? It wasn't the first appearance of wolverine, the first Wolverine comic.

01:07:21

And I finally got a hold of a really well known collector, and he goes, oh, he goes, you don't know. Well, they knew by that point that Wolverine was a hot And so they printed over three hundred thousand copies of that first edition. And it's like, oh, shit. Like, that's why there's just the flood of these in the market. So You know, NFTs, the beautiful thing about this, when you have an artist produce a piece, it has proven provenance, so you know where it's come from, has proven scarcity. So you can't, like, create, you know, additional add ons or duplicates because it's all recorded on the blockchain.

And I finally got a hold of a really well known collector, and he goes, oh, he goes, you don't know. Well, they knew by that point that Wolverine was a hot And so they printed over three hundred thousand copies of that first edition. And it's like, oh, shit. Like, that's why there's just the flood of these in the market. So You know, NFTs, the beautiful thing about this, when you have an artist produce a piece, it has proven provenance, so you know where it's come from, has proven scarcity. So you can't, like, create, you know, additional add ons or duplicates because it's all recorded on the blockchain.

01:07:51

And then you have the, unique ability to do very creative things like animation,

And then you have the, unique ability to do very creative things like animation,

01:07:56

oracles where the art can change based on the stock market price or time of day or phase of the moon. And there's just so much more extension It's a new vertical for art. Fine. That's great. Awesome. Like, digital frames are gonna be getting better.

oracles where the art can change based on the stock market price or time of day or phase of the moon. And there's just so much more extension It's a new vertical for art. Fine. That's great. Awesome. Like, digital frames are gonna be getting better.

01:08:09

It it is gonna be a thing. Like, there's no in my mind, there is no, argument to be had there that this won't be. Correct. I don't bet against the the the future or the inevitable, and art is the easy use case for entities. The ticket thing is different. Right? So the ticket thing, I I I'm with you. Like, I understand that people are in in web three

It it is gonna be a thing. Like, there's no in my mind, there is no, argument to be had there that this won't be. Correct. I don't bet against the the the future or the inevitable, and art is the easy use case for entities. The ticket thing is different. Right? So the ticket thing, I I I'm with you. Like, I understand that people are in in web three

01:08:30

are trying to, like, create these fancy financial instruments

are trying to, like, create these fancy financial instruments

01:08:34

to, like, leverage you on anything that you own. They're like, hey, you have a ticket to that upcoming concert that sold out, you know, spin it into this defy unit and take a loan against it. And then you can buy it back and use the money in the short term. And it's like, That's all bullshit, man. That nobody's gonna do that. Right? It's it's it's don't get me wrong. There's there's there's there are specific use cases where that does make sense. Like, loan against FTS is gonna be the same thing that happens when Christie gives you a loan against your Picasso. Right? Like, these these happen this happens all the time. It's just a parallel for the digital world. There are certain types of of assets, digital assets that getting loans against them, if it's something you want, will make sense. The ticket thing for me is very confusing. But what I will tell you is interesting. And I've talked to actual rock stars about this. Like, I had Mike Chanota from Lincoln Park on my show, and he's a huge NFT fan and he creates them. And,

to, like, leverage you on anything that you own. They're like, hey, you have a ticket to that upcoming concert that sold out, you know, spin it into this defy unit and take a loan against it. And then you can buy it back and use the money in the short term. And it's like, That's all bullshit, man. That nobody's gonna do that. Right? It's it's it's don't get me wrong. There's there's there's there are specific use cases where that does make sense. Like, loan against FTS is gonna be the same thing that happens when Christie gives you a loan against your Picasso. Right? Like, these these happen this happens all the time. It's just a parallel for the digital world. There are certain types of of assets, digital assets that getting loans against them, if it's something you want, will make sense. The ticket thing for me is very confusing. But what I will tell you is interesting. And I've talked to actual rock stars about this. Like, I had Mike Chanota from Lincoln Park on my show, and he's a huge NFT fan and he creates them. And,

01:09:25

you know, awesome awesome flex the way. You you know, I've I've talked to some rock stars about this. I'm gonna that that No. But, like, I don't I'm not making fun of you. I'm saying that's cool. I think it's cool. I think it's important because like, you you do you wanna get the artist to buy in on this Totally. No. It's cool. They're saying it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's an awesome guy. Very approachable.

you know, awesome awesome flex the way. You you know, I've I've talked to some rock stars about this. I'm gonna that that No. But, like, I don't I'm not making fun of you. I'm saying that's cool. I think it's cool. I think it's important because like, you you do you wanna get the artist to buy in on this Totally. No. It's cool. They're saying it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's an awesome guy. Very approachable.

01:09:44

We're very approachable

We're very approachable

01:09:45

in the terms of rock star guys. But Chanel will tell you that, like, well, what we talked about, which is an obvious one is, like, Okay. Imagine the tickets

in the terms of rock star guys. But Chanel will tell you that, like, well, what we talked about, which is an obvious one is, like, Okay. Imagine the tickets

01:09:55

well, let let me step back. One thing I believes to be true.

well, let let me step back. One thing I believes to be true.

01:09:59

Ninety plus percent of people that inter act with NFTs over the long term.

Ninety plus percent of people that inter act with NFTs over the long term.

01:10:04

I believe

I believe

01:10:05

won't even know it as they're doing it as an NFT. It'll just be something where they have a digital wallet and app or something like that, and they have a ticket there. Right? They're not gonna know that behind the scenes that is powered by the blockchain and recorded by the blockchain. Right? So I think what's gonna happen is

won't even know it as they're doing it as an NFT. It'll just be something where they have a digital wallet and app or something like that, and they have a ticket there. Right? They're not gonna know that behind the scenes that is powered by the blockchain and recorded by the blockchain. Right? So I think what's gonna happen is

01:10:22

the nice thing about the blockchain is because it is a ledger, an an immutable ledger, that is that is a way to say, improve that you have done something that you either attended an event or you've, you know, you've actually physically done something there's a ton of possibilities that I can unlock. Right? If I go and I see Mike Snow to play five shows or ten shows, maybe he says, okay. Now according to the blockchain in our app, and again, the consumer doesn't need to know about this, anyone that's attended ten of my shows gets a VIP meet and greet before the show. Right? And there's a thousand different things that you can do that you want to have that security of the blockchain behind the scenes So it's not being forged. So there's not being copies of it being made. So there's not, like, a way to fake it. And that's the nice thing about the block chain is it provides you a way to have the security and knowledge that something is not being faked. And you can imagine that's broadly applicable to a whole slew of different industries.

the nice thing about the blockchain is because it is a ledger, an an immutable ledger, that is that is a way to say, improve that you have done something that you either attended an event or you've, you know, you've actually physically done something there's a ton of possibilities that I can unlock. Right? If I go and I see Mike Snow to play five shows or ten shows, maybe he says, okay. Now according to the blockchain in our app, and again, the consumer doesn't need to know about this, anyone that's attended ten of my shows gets a VIP meet and greet before the show. Right? And there's a thousand different things that you can do that you want to have that security of the blockchain behind the scenes So it's not being forged. So there's not being copies of it being made. So there's not, like, a way to fake it. And that's the nice thing about the block chain is it provides you a way to have the security and knowledge that something is not being faked. And you can imagine that's broadly applicable to a whole slew of different industries.

01:11:19

I don't think we'll be calling them quote unquote NFTs.

I don't think we'll be calling them quote unquote NFTs.

01:11:22

You know, it it's just gonna be a great piece of tech. It's just another database. That's all it is. It's a distributed,

You know, it it's just gonna be a great piece of tech. It's just another database. That's all it is. It's a distributed,

01:11:30

immutable database that is decentralized.

immutable database that is decentralized.

01:11:32

If that's all this is, which unlocks a bunch of fun new use cases. Let's caveat it. Alright. So let's say because I think I get when I get what you're saying, but I also get the,

If that's all this is, which unlocks a bunch of fun new use cases. Let's caveat it. Alright. So let's say because I think I get when I get what you're saying, but I also get the,

01:11:42

the eye rolls that people get when it's, like, Cool. Tell me, like, how this is gonna make my life better. And it's like, well, the cool thing about a blockchain is that it's provable, scarce. It's like, it's like, wait. You're telling me about the under the hood part, whereas for example, if my mom is like if I'm like, mom, you should set up an email address. And she's like, what the heck is email? I don't need that. And it's like, well, no. Check this out. Like, you know, you send letters or you, you know, you send letters to your sister who lives across the country. Like watch this. If you do it this way, it's free, and it'll be instant.

the eye rolls that people get when it's, like, Cool. Tell me, like, how this is gonna make my life better. And it's like, well, the cool thing about a blockchain is that it's provable, scarce. It's like, it's like, wait. You're telling me about the under the hood part, whereas for example, if my mom is like if I'm like, mom, you should set up an email address. And she's like, what the heck is email? I don't need that. And it's like, well, no. Check this out. Like, you know, you send letters or you, you know, you send letters to your sister who lives across the country. Like watch this. If you do it this way, it's free, and it'll be instant.

01:12:09

And, like, oh, wow. That's cool. And, hey, you know, it's even better because it's all digital. You can just type the word and it'll find that file. You don't have to keep it organized somewhere in a folder in your house. Right? So I can I don't have to tell her how it works at all? I can literally just say it made your life better by be by giving you, you know, more time, more money, more whatever. And so I think the question is,

And, like, oh, wow. That's cool. And, hey, you know, it's even better because it's all digital. You can just type the word and it'll find that file. You don't have to keep it organized somewhere in a folder in your house. Right? So I can I don't have to tell her how it works at all? I can literally just say it made your life better by be by giving you, you know, more time, more money, more whatever. And so I think the question is,

01:12:29

what does NFTs give? What what does what will an NFT give a person that makes their life better? Without explaining how how the tech works at all. Sure. I'll I'll give you I'll give you a great example of one that hasn't launched yet, but something that that I'm personally working on.

what does NFTs give? What what does what will an NFT give a person that makes their life better? Without explaining how how the tech works at all. Sure. I'll I'll give you I'll give you a great example of one that hasn't launched yet, but something that that I'm personally working on.

01:12:44

So,

So,

01:12:45

I'm I'm working with,

I'm I'm working with,

01:12:47

a well known, like, very culty kind of wine producer out there.

a well known, like, very culty kind of wine producer out there.

01:12:52

And,

And,

01:12:53

you know, wine at the highest level at the high end, it it's a tricky it's a tricky business because

you know, wine at the highest level at the high end, it it's a tricky it's a tricky business because

01:13:00

There's, you know, forgeries, there's fake labels, there's they're putting holograms on the side of them. They're putting,

There's, you know, forgeries, there's fake labels, there's they're putting holograms on the side of them. They're putting,

01:13:06

a chips inside of the labels so that they can be scanned to to prove that they're authentic. Right?

a chips inside of the labels so that they can be scanned to to prove that they're authentic. Right?

01:13:12

That's one piece. So the the first question is if I'm buying off the secondary market and not directly from the producer? Am I getting something that's legit?

That's one piece. So the the first question is if I'm buying off the secondary market and not directly from the producer? Am I getting something that's legit?

01:13:20

Excuse me.

Excuse me.

01:13:21

The the second piece of that is once I receive that bottle, you know, how do I store it to ensure that if I'm gonna keep something and I want this asset to appreciate over time,

The the second piece of that is once I receive that bottle, you know, how do I store it to ensure that if I'm gonna keep something and I want this asset to appreciate over time,

01:13:31

and I wanna drink it a decade from now or two,

and I wanna drink it a decade from now or two,

01:13:33

then, you know, how do I ensure that it is being stored the right way? So one thing that is happening in the next four months will be the issuance

then, you know, how do I ensure that it is being stored the right way? So one thing that is happening in the next four months will be the issuance

01:13:42

of NFTs to people

of NFTs to people

01:13:44

that is gonna be from a major well known winery

that is gonna be from a major well known winery

01:13:47

where it will represent one physical bottle of wine.

where it will represent one physical bottle of wine.

01:13:51

There's a couple advantages here. One, you don't have to take possession of it right away. You can let it sit in its proven perfect storage conditions

There's a couple advantages here. One, you don't have to take possession of it right away. You can let it sit in its proven perfect storage conditions

01:14:00

and age for decades to come. You can let it appreciate

and age for decades to come. You can let it appreciate

01:14:04

in that in those storage conditions, and you can hold on to the proven ownership of it as an NFT.

in that in those storage conditions, and you can hold on to the proven ownership of it as an NFT.

01:14:09

Let's say that bottle of wine

Let's say that bottle of wine

01:14:11

for four or five x's over the next decade.

for four or five x's over the next decade.

01:14:14

You don't ever have to then pull the wine in out of the cellar, take ownership of it, find a third party to sell it, and then re sell it, where that person is questioning the authenticity of that wine. Instead, you can just transfer the NFT to a buddy. You can gift it to them for a special occasion or an anniversary.

You don't ever have to then pull the wine in out of the cellar, take ownership of it, find a third party to sell it, and then re sell it, where that person is questioning the authenticity of that wine. Instead, you can just transfer the NFT to a buddy. You can gift it to them for a special occasion or an anniversary.

01:14:30

And then when they decided, hey, I wanna drink this, they pressed two buttons and that bottle of wine that has been stored perfectly for a decade shows up at their door. That is efficiency.

And then when they decided, hey, I wanna drink this, they pressed two buttons and that bottle of wine that has been stored perfectly for a decade shows up at their door. That is efficiency.

01:14:39

That eliminates

That eliminates

01:14:40

fraud. There is just so much to love in that equation, and that'll be applied to the watch industry, to the luxury world, to all these different verticals.

fraud. There is just so much to love in that equation, and that'll be applied to the watch industry, to the luxury world, to all these different verticals.

01:14:48

And it just makes sense. Like, what about that? I'm just curious if as you hear me explain it, doesn't sound like a better world, like, in in terms of fixing a bunch of problems.

And it just makes sense. Like, what about that? I'm just curious if as you hear me explain it, doesn't sound like a better world, like, in in terms of fixing a bunch of problems.

01:14:59

I think,

I think,

01:15:00

if I was gonna

if I was gonna

01:15:02

if I was gonna argue against that, like, just to steal man the argument against it, I think it would be

if I was gonna argue against that, like, just to steal man the argument against it, I think it would be

01:15:08

Cool. Like, maybe it's gonna maybe these are certificates for collectibles,

Cool. Like, maybe it's gonna maybe these are certificates for collectibles,

01:15:12

most, you know, it's not gonna that doesn't impact most people's lives as well, not collecting high end bags or wines or this, where there's huge problems of forgery like that. That may be one thing, which is it's not going to impact that many people

most, you know, it's not gonna that doesn't impact most people's lives as well, not collecting high end bags or wines or this, where there's huge problems of forgery like that. That may be one thing, which is it's not going to impact that many people

01:15:25

in in that sense, oh, you're telling me entities of this game changing, world changing technology, but that's a really niche specific, you know, one percenter type problem. And then the other is, like, you know,

in in that sense, oh, you're telling me entities of this game changing, world changing technology, but that's a really niche specific, you know, one percenter type problem. And then the other is, like, you know,

01:15:35

sounds like an NFT is like a digital certificate.

sounds like an NFT is like a digital certificate.

01:15:38

You know, you could have done that with a with another type of certificate.

You know, you could have done that with a with another type of certificate.

01:15:41

But,

But,

01:15:42

or another type database. Maybe, and, but maybe this is better. Like, I do agree it's better, but, like, it was possible before I didn't take the impossible and make it possible. It made the, the possible it made it, maybe made it more efficient or a little bit more convenient for the consumer. And so I think that would be maybe one argument against it, but I don't wanna too far in the weeds. Yeah. I I the other thing that I think that to add on to that though is that because

or another type database. Maybe, and, but maybe this is better. Like, I do agree it's better, but, like, it was possible before I didn't take the impossible and make it possible. It made the, the possible it made it, maybe made it more efficient or a little bit more convenient for the consumer. And so I think that would be maybe one argument against it, but I don't wanna too far in the weeds. Yeah. I I the other thing that I think that to add on to that though is that because

01:16:05

you have well, I'll give you an example, like, back in in in,

you have well, I'll give you an example, like, back in in in,

01:16:10

you know, the back to the rock star example of of an artist.

you know, the back to the rock star example of of an artist.

01:16:14

You're reliant upon if you did wanna do some type of rewards program or something for well, actually, let me step at one point. The point you made about the one percenter problem, and is this applicable to those people You're absolutely right. Like, there's only a certain number of people that are gonna collect art at the highest level and wanting at the highest level and all that. I mean, granted these or double digit billions of dollars of year, like, big markets to go after. But you're right. These specific use cases that I'm giving are are very niche. Right?

You're reliant upon if you did wanna do some type of rewards program or something for well, actually, let me step at one point. The point you made about the one percenter problem, and is this applicable to those people You're absolutely right. Like, there's only a certain number of people that are gonna collect art at the highest level and wanting at the highest level and all that. I mean, granted these or double digit billions of dollars of year, like, big markets to go after. But you're right. These specific use cases that I'm giving are are very niche. Right?

01:16:41

I think on the more broadly,

I think on the more broadly,

01:16:43

on on the on the idea of just

on on the on the idea of just

01:16:46

membership and access, improve where you've been, what you've done, to lock, unlock loyalty and rewards over the long term, and think about, you know, replacing

membership and access, improve where you've been, what you've done, to lock, unlock loyalty and rewards over the long term, and think about, you know, replacing

01:16:54

the AMEX points or you know, other point type systems or reward systems with blockchain. The beautiful thing about it being decentralized, and this is one argument for decentralization,

the AMEX points or you know, other point type systems or reward systems with blockchain. The beautiful thing about it being decentralized, and this is one argument for decentralization,

01:17:04

is that it's forever on the chain, and you're not dependent upon a company being around for that for that to exist. So if an artist is engaged with a startup, is working on a loyalty rewards program for them, and they run out of capital and die three years later. As long as they stored their information on the blockchain, that ours can then just pick up where they left off and it just it continues forward. And we've already seen this happen where there's been several startups that have stored their information on the blockchain where they go out of business because they just their their idea didn't hit. And then someone fills the the void and comes and says, I have a better take on this. And now let me tap into that public data and use it going forward so that not all is lost, which is kind of a a new concept and rather than a just a database going away it's always gonna be there and could be reused, which I think is pretty pretty compelling. The really simple two second example of this is you play a game. You you you get really into Fortnite. You go buy a bunch of skins. You you dress up your character. You got the cool, you know, like glider, and you you bought all that stuff. And, you know, a year and a half goes by. Your friends have moved They're all playing call of duty now.

is that it's forever on the chain, and you're not dependent upon a company being around for that for that to exist. So if an artist is engaged with a startup, is working on a loyalty rewards program for them, and they run out of capital and die three years later. As long as they stored their information on the blockchain, that ours can then just pick up where they left off and it just it continues forward. And we've already seen this happen where there's been several startups that have stored their information on the blockchain where they go out of business because they just their their idea didn't hit. And then someone fills the the void and comes and says, I have a better take on this. And now let me tap into that public data and use it going forward so that not all is lost, which is kind of a a new concept and rather than a just a database going away it's always gonna be there and could be reused, which I think is pretty pretty compelling. The really simple two second example of this is you play a game. You you you get really into Fortnite. You go buy a bunch of skins. You you dress up your character. You got the cool, you know, like glider, and you you bought all that stuff. And, you know, a year and a half goes by. Your friends have moved They're all playing call of duty now.

01:18:10

You've sank three fifty dollars into Fortnite. You don't own those items. You can't resell those items. You can't recoup any of that value.

You've sank three fifty dollars into Fortnite. You don't own those items. You can't resell those items. You can't recoup any of that value.

01:18:17

Nor could you take those items into any other game? So in a web three world, either another game could come out that says, Hey, we accept item. We we we plugged into this protocol. So you can bring your cool sword from game one to game two. That makes the sword more valuable because now it could be used in multiple games. Maybe And we're seeing this already. The interoperability

Nor could you take those items into any other game? So in a web three world, either another game could come out that says, Hey, we accept item. We we we plugged into this protocol. So you can bring your cool sword from game one to game two. That makes the sword more valuable because now it could be used in multiple games. Maybe And we're seeing this already. The interoperability

01:18:36

between multiple web three platforms saying that this is a defined standard and now these items can digitally move between platforms. It makes it makes a ton those items are more valuable because they can be used in more places. And the other one is that if I'm just done with the game, I could just dump it on to the next person who's really interested in Fortnite, and I could recoup my some of my investment

between multiple web three platforms saying that this is a defined standard and now these items can digitally move between platforms. It makes it makes a ton those items are more valuable because they can be used in more places. And the other one is that if I'm just done with the game, I could just dump it on to the next person who's really interested in Fortnite, and I could recoup my some of my investment

01:18:53

which will make more people want to spend in games because it's not just a muddy pit. It's an asset that they could resell. Alright. So that's like the the quicker example, maybe. I love that you join my side. It's your your address on your side, but I have to argue the other way, in order for this to be interesting. At the end, at the end, you're like, I get it. I'm in. The other crypto nerd argument would be okay for years. But people have been saying that Bitcoin is this this inflation hedge or this currency that that

which will make more people want to spend in games because it's not just a muddy pit. It's an asset that they could resell. Alright. So that's like the the quicker example, maybe. I love that you join my side. It's your your address on your side, but I have to argue the other way, in order for this to be interesting. At the end, at the end, you're like, I get it. I'm in. The other crypto nerd argument would be okay for years. But people have been saying that Bitcoin is this this inflation hedge or this currency that that

01:19:19

that's, that doesn't inflate.

that's, that doesn't inflate.

01:19:21

And, oh my god, you know, how lucky for you guys? The US government starts printing trillions of dollars. Inflation is at record highs. It's in the news every day.

And, oh my god, you know, how lucky for you guys? The US government starts printing trillions of dollars. Inflation is at record highs. It's in the news every day.

01:19:30

Wait. What happened to that awesome inflation hedge asset? Why is it down fifty percent when inflation is is is the bigger problem than ever. Shouldn't this be shouldn't this be your time to shine Bitcoin? So Yeah. What say you to that?

Wait. What happened to that awesome inflation hedge asset? Why is it down fifty percent when inflation is is is the bigger problem than ever. Shouldn't this be shouldn't this be your time to shine Bitcoin? So Yeah. What say you to that?

01:19:44

Yeah. I mean, it's it's a real shame that that Bitcoin has been so spiky because if it hadn't been this linear growth to twenty thousand to where it is today, we'd all be like, this is the most amazing thing ever. Like, like, if you just take the spikes out and make it look linear,

Yeah. I mean, it's it's a real shame that that Bitcoin has been so spiky because if it hadn't been this linear growth to twenty thousand to where it is today, we'd all be like, this is the most amazing thing ever. Like, like, if you just take the spikes out and make it look linear,

01:19:59

it's it still looks like an incredible asset. Like, you know, just go back five years. Look where it is now versus five years ago. So it it's the spiky nature of it that that that hurts it in the end. I would say that,

it's it still looks like an incredible asset. Like, you know, just go back five years. Look where it is now versus five years ago. So it it's the spiky nature of it that that that hurts it in the end. I would say that,

01:20:12

you know, I I'm a fan. I think Bitcoin is is a tough one because it's I I I don't like that it's not a green currency and I don't see a clear path ever being the case.

you know, I I'm a fan. I think Bitcoin is is a tough one because it's I I I don't like that it's not a green currency and I don't see a clear path ever being the case.

01:20:24

And

And

01:20:25

I know everyone's trying to extend it in new and exciting ways and try to make it more ethereum like and so that it can do more than just be, this type of digital gold

I know everyone's trying to extend it in new and exciting ways and try to make it more ethereum like and so that it can do more than just be, this type of digital gold

01:20:34

for me, you know, when I when I think about those types of assets,

for me, you know, when I when I think about those types of assets,

01:20:39

it's I'm responsible in that I I I'm not betting the farm on this. But is it a small percentage of my portfolio? Absolutely. And I just considered another asset class that provides me a little bit of

it's I'm responsible in that I I I'm not betting the farm on this. But is it a small percentage of my portfolio? Absolutely. And I just considered another asset class that provides me a little bit of

01:20:51

of diversification

of diversification

01:20:52

across the board. So, you know, the majority of of my, you know, personal holdings is is

across the board. So, you know, the majority of of my, you know, personal holdings is is

01:20:58

still

still

01:20:59

standard, you know, index funds,

standard, you know, index funds,

01:21:01

that that are are pretty vanilla. The low cost index funds, you know, the Vanguard way. Right? Yeah. I was actually gonna ask that. What what is your liquid portfolio look like? Like, where I I was I was been waiting to ask you that. Sam is like a ETA low cost FTS and bonds. Dude, I I'm eighty percent in the Vanguard index funds, twenty percent bonds. That's that's all. And then I built private businesses

that that are are pretty vanilla. The low cost index funds, you know, the Vanguard way. Right? Yeah. I was actually gonna ask that. What what is your liquid portfolio look like? Like, where I I was I was been waiting to ask you that. Sam is like a ETA low cost FTS and bonds. Dude, I I'm eighty percent in the Vanguard index funds, twenty percent bonds. That's that's all. And then I built private businesses

01:21:23

where Sean, like, has put everything into I'm like, I'm investing crypto and then, like, you know, five companies I believe in and, you know, a little bit of index funds. Like, it's like, yeah. Zero, like, it's like five percent or something like that. It keep ten percent in cash or something. And so what would your

where Sean, like, has put everything into I'm like, I'm investing crypto and then, like, you know, five companies I believe in and, you know, a little bit of index funds. Like, it's like, yeah. Zero, like, it's like five percent or something like that. It keep ten percent in cash or something. And so what would your

01:21:39

what would your pie chart look like? Obviously, it changes over time. Yeah. So so my my pie chart would be essentially this.

what would your pie chart look like? Obviously, it changes over time. Yeah. So so my my pie chart would be essentially this.

01:21:46

You know, eighty

You know, eighty

01:21:47

percent well, I think there's an important thing to caveat here is that as a venture capital,

percent well, I think there's an important thing to caveat here is that as a venture capital,

01:21:54

partner over true ventures, I have a lot of

partner over true ventures, I have a lot of

01:21:58

risk on the table there in in venture early stage investments.

risk on the table there in in venture early stage investments.

01:22:01

Did you have to put your own money into that or is that just your carrier? I do. Yeah. Buoyo money into it as as an investing partner, you also invest alongside the fund. So,

Did you have to put your own money into that or is that just your carrier? I do. Yeah. Buoyo money into it as as an investing partner, you also invest alongside the fund. So,

01:22:10

that is my bucket of risk. Right? So just setting that aside and saying, okay, you know, I have Carrie in the fund. That's my bucket of high risk. Too much capital. Right? You put like, I don't know, what, like, like, quarter million dollars or a million dollars, something like that in into that. It depends on the size of the fund. It's it's a it's a it's a percentage of the fund. We just closed our latest fund, which is seven hundred and fifty million. And so the partners put in, a percent of, of that,

that is my bucket of risk. Right? So just setting that aside and saying, okay, you know, I have Carrie in the fund. That's my bucket of high risk. Too much capital. Right? You put like, I don't know, what, like, like, quarter million dollars or a million dollars, something like that in into that. It depends on the size of the fund. It's it's a it's a it's a percentage of the fund. We just closed our latest fund, which is seven hundred and fifty million. And so the partners put in, a percent of, of that,

01:22:35

in, back into the fund. I'd have to look at what the exact numbers are, but it's it's substantial. They want you to have skin in the game when you're investing.

in, back into the fund. I'd have to look at what the exact numbers are, but it's it's substantial. They want you to have skin in the game when you're investing.

01:22:42

So, you know, I consider that to be, like, Those are those are the big high risk buckets. So everything else I do, I want to be just super vanilla. And it it's that it's that Vanguard index fund

So, you know, I consider that to be, like, Those are those are the big high risk buckets. So everything else I do, I want to be just super vanilla. And it it's that it's that Vanguard index fund

01:22:55

keep it, you know, keep it really simple. I don't do bond funds. I'd rather rely on

keep it, you know, keep it really simple. I don't do bond funds. I'd rather rely on

01:23:01

people to buy bonds on my behalf.

people to buy bonds on my behalf.

01:23:05

You know, I am laddering into,

You know, I am laddering into,

01:23:08

bills right now because you're getting four plus percent in the short term. And so, you know, just just ladder and to to to those makes a ton of sense right now.

bills right now because you're getting four plus percent in the short term. And so, you know, just just ladder and to to to those makes a ton of sense right now.

01:23:18

You know, anyone out there that has ten grand that's sitting around that doesn't go by an eye bill right now that's earning over nine percent is just insane.

You know, anyone out there that has ten grand that's sitting around that doesn't go by an eye bill right now that's earning over nine percent is just insane.

01:23:26

Like, that's the most no brainer scenario for for someone that's listening to this podcast. By the way, there's like one week left of that. Right? I was like Yeah. That's right. Obviously, not investment advice, but you are getting the full faith of the US government as the backer, and it's over nine percent. And you could do ten thousand for yourself and ten thousand for your spouse, which is, amazing.

Like, that's the most no brainer scenario for for someone that's listening to this podcast. By the way, there's like one week left of that. Right? I was like Yeah. That's right. Obviously, not investment advice, but you are getting the full faith of the US government as the backer, and it's over nine percent. And you could do ten thousand for yourself and ten thousand for your spouse, which is, amazing.

01:23:44

So,

So,

01:23:46

anyway,

anyway,

01:23:46

it's I keep it really simple. And then and then the rest is is is the crypto the crypto side of things is, like, you know, Let's call it,

it's I keep it really simple. And then and then the rest is is is the crypto the crypto side of things is, like, you know, Let's call it,

01:23:56

fifty percent NFTs and fifty percent,

fifty percent NFTs and fifty percent,

01:23:58

digital assets. And that's, you know, probably

digital assets. And that's, you know, probably

01:24:02

ten percent of my overall.

ten percent of my overall.

01:24:03

Okay.

Okay.

01:24:04

So so ninety percent of

So so ninety percent of

01:24:07

non venture stuff is in just a in the next one.

non venture stuff is in just a in the next one.

01:24:12

Yeah. Yeah. And multiple index funds that cover a variety of markets. But, yeah, low cost. Do you touch real estate at all or no?

Yeah. Yeah. And multiple index funds that cover a variety of markets. But, yeah, low cost. Do you touch real estate at all or no?

01:24:18

Not really, other than just, you know,

Not really, other than just, you know,

01:24:21

my own stuff. Do you own or rent?

my own stuff. Do you own or rent?

01:24:24

I own.

I own.

01:24:25

We're we've always had this debate. And I know you gotta go to me and I hear your alarms went up, but we always have this debate. Well, we both agree. I I own. I wish I would have rented. Dude, I just wanna rent everything. I don't wanna own a lot of stuff. Do you regret owning or or do you like being an owner?

We're we've always had this debate. And I know you gotta go to me and I hear your alarms went up, but we always have this debate. Well, we both agree. I I own. I wish I would have rented. Dude, I just wanna rent everything. I don't wanna own a lot of stuff. Do you regret owning or or do you like being an owner?

01:24:40

You know, the the thing is when interest rates were low, you can just take a bunch of capital back out of your house and pour it back into the market, assuming that you're gonna beat you know, if you could get,

You know, the the thing is when interest rates were low, you can just take a bunch of capital back out of your house and pour it back into the market, assuming that you're gonna beat you know, if you could get,

01:24:50

own a house,

own a house,

01:24:54

take a loan out against, again, against that house and get, you know, a two a couple

take a loan out against, again, against that house and get, you know, a two a couple

01:24:59

couple points and and earn five to seven in the market, like, I'll take that delta all day long. So,

couple points and and earn five to seven in the market, like, I'll take that delta all day long. So,

01:25:05

that's kind of the way I play it.

that's kind of the way I play it.

01:25:07

Cool. Well, dude, you're, I'm really happy we got to talk. I, I used to work out of the Reddit building, a third in Bryant, and I remember seeing you walk by. And I was, like, That's Kevin. I wish I would have said, Hey, that was in two thousand twelve. So it's only been eleven years later, ten years later, but, I'm happy that we are able to talk.

Cool. Well, dude, you're, I'm really happy we got to talk. I, I used to work out of the Reddit building, a third in Bryant, and I remember seeing you walk by. And I was, like, That's Kevin. I wish I would have said, Hey, that was in two thousand twelve. So it's only been eleven years later, ten years later, but, I'm happy that we are able to talk.

01:25:24

Been a big fan of yours. I know Sean has as well. So it's really, exciting to to be able to meet you. I I love that you guys are doing this show. I mean, it reminds me a lot of like the the kind of fun little hash out debates that Tim Farris and I have when we do our random shows. Like, they're just fun. Right? You gave a couple of friends together and shoot the shit and some some crazy discussions,

Been a big fan of yours. I know Sean has as well. So it's really, exciting to to be able to meet you. I I love that you guys are doing this show. I mean, it reminds me a lot of like the the kind of fun little hash out debates that Tim Farris and I have when we do our random shows. Like, they're just fun. Right? You gave a couple of friends together and shoot the shit and some some crazy discussions,

01:25:42

it could come out of it. So that's that's great. Dude, those were I can't believe how big those were back then. I remember the the Kevin Tim shows. I think the call that he, like, had a funny name for you, like, Tim Tim, top top. Yeah. Oh, I call him Tim Tim still. And he's supposed to be kev kev. But, yeah, We just shot one here, in person,

it could come out of it. So that's that's great. Dude, those were I can't believe how big those were back then. I remember the the Kevin Tim shows. I think the call that he, like, had a funny name for you, like, Tim Tim, top top. Yeah. Oh, I call him Tim Tim still. And he's supposed to be kev kev. But, yeah, We just shot one here, in person,

01:25:59

maybe two weeks ago, which was fun. It was good to see Tim again. I'd seen him in in a minute. But, you may not delay. Little things. You, like, I remember you talked about Wim Hof back then, and I was like, oh, you know, next day I'm on my floor, like,

maybe two weeks ago, which was fun. It was good to see Tim again. I'd seen him in in a minute. But, you may not delay. Little things. You, like, I remember you talked about Wim Hof back then, and I was like, oh, you know, next day I'm on my floor, like,

01:26:11

breathing and, you know, hyperventilating

breathing and, you know, hyperventilating

01:26:14

on purpose.

on purpose.

01:26:15

I even remember your what? Doctor. Dara, is that her name? Daria. Yeah. Daria, like, it it's funny. It's like that stuff was so in I mean, it still is, but it was, like, particularly when I was in twenty two and just getting into Silicon Valley. Like, I really looked up to you guys as, like, just Show me how to Silicon Valley. You know what I mean? It it was really cool.

I even remember your what? Doctor. Dara, is that her name? Daria. Yeah. Daria, like, it it's funny. It's like that stuff was so in I mean, it still is, but it was, like, particularly when I was in twenty two and just getting into Silicon Valley. Like, I really looked up to you guys as, like, just Show me how to Silicon Valley. You know what I mean? It it was really cool.

01:26:32

Yeah. That was that was a fun. I was I I missed not living in the same city as is Tim because, we we we always have getting to some trouble when we're together. So

Yeah. That was that was a fun. I was I I missed not living in the same city as is Tim because, we we we always have getting to some trouble when we're together. So

01:26:40

Yeah. You guys are ready to do the blueprint for us in in terms of, like, hey, if you could find somebody you got chemistry with and you shoot the shit and, like, what's your content? Your content is just, yo, I'm super curious and interested in a bunch of things. And this becomes my outlet to summarize, you know, my set of experiments and rabbit holes I've been going down. And, like, you know, we would have never done a podcast stuff, oh, the ad revenue will be enough. It's like, no, it's not really, like, fuck that. That's not really relevant.

Yeah. You guys are ready to do the blueprint for us in in terms of, like, hey, if you could find somebody you got chemistry with and you shoot the shit and, like, what's your content? Your content is just, yo, I'm super curious and interested in a bunch of things. And this becomes my outlet to summarize, you know, my set of experiments and rabbit holes I've been going down. And, like, you know, we would have never done a podcast stuff, oh, the ad revenue will be enough. It's like, no, it's not really, like, fuck that. That's not really relevant.

01:27:05

And seeing, you know, Tim, and you and how, oh, actually it's these relationships and these investments, and there's these little side projects you kick up. And, actually, you can make this whole thing work.

And seeing, you know, Tim, and you and how, oh, actually it's these relationships and these investments, and there's these little side projects you kick up. And, actually, you can make this whole thing work.

01:27:15

Without having to go, you know, do this, like, you know, traditional kind of venture path of, yeah, of of raising money to go do this thing. So that was pretty inspiring. So, yeah, thank you for that. I think, you know, just seeing a blueprint is like that Roger banister four minute mile where you're like, oh, I can have the lifestyle I want. But on my terms. And, if these guys can do it, then we could do it. Oh, I mean, it's it's congrats to you both. It seems like, from from what I heard here at the beginning of this episode, you guys have done quite well and and, congrats on your success. It's awesome. Mhmm. Congrats to you too, and thanks for kinda paving the way. We appreciate it, and thanks for coming. Thanks for having me.

Without having to go, you know, do this, like, you know, traditional kind of venture path of, yeah, of of raising money to go do this thing. So that was pretty inspiring. So, yeah, thank you for that. I think, you know, just seeing a blueprint is like that Roger banister four minute mile where you're like, oh, I can have the lifestyle I want. But on my terms. And, if these guys can do it, then we could do it. Oh, I mean, it's it's congrats to you both. It seems like, from from what I heard here at the beginning of this episode, you guys have done quite well and and, congrats on your success. It's awesome. Mhmm. Congrats to you too, and thanks for kinda paving the way. We appreciate it, and thanks for coming. Thanks for having me.

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