00:00
You own a holdco. I think, Grudely Enterprises is the name of it. Within it, you have a bunch of different things. So you own stuff as funky as, like, a fireworks company called Alamo fireworks.
00:11
You own like a software
00:13
rollup called Dura software.
00:16
You have like a coffee chain, I think, that right? You have, like, your a drive through coffee chain that's got, like, three or four locations or something like that.
00:24
And then you incubate couple, couple projects One of a one of which I used actually recently.
00:35
Michael, what up, dog? Sean. Where are you? You're at Tahoe? I'm in Lake Tahoe. Yeah.
00:40
How is it?
00:42
It's amazing. Yeah. This place is great.
00:44
Is it just a getaway from crypto?
00:47
No. It was a father's day trip. So,
00:50
you know, came out here
00:52
with my wife's family. And,
00:54
yeah, it's been cool. It's been like at the lake in the pool, all that good stuff. That's awesome. Who who so you, Sean, you wanna introduce this guy? Yeah. Okay. Great. So we got Michael Girdly. Is that the way you say it? Yep.
01:07
Yeah. Michael's here. I've been following you on Twitter for a while.
01:11
And,
01:12
and I think you almost
01:13
want you almost bought our NFT for the five months of fame, but,
01:18
You got outbid at the last minute. Is that right?
01:21
Yes.
01:22
Yeah. I had a whole plan about it. I was actually gonna shard it. And then try to make profit from it and sell it in fifteen second increments, but some really rich crypto person came in and swooped it out from under me. So Samuel, I had a huge plan. I had a huge plan.
01:39
And and but you but it worked anyways. You've got on the pod anyways. Without it,
01:43
because,
01:44
you're a pretty interesting dude. I've been following you on Twitter mostly because you tweet about Chili's a lot, and I'm a big Chilly's guy, huge chili's fan.
01:53
But you also
01:54
you kind of fit into this sort of like Andrew. We'll concede bucket, which is, like, you run a holdco, and you run, like, a a pretty big holdco.
02:02
And so let's just give people kind of, like, you're you're rundown. Here's what I know about you.
02:08
You own a holdco. I think it's crudely enterprise is the name of it. Within it, you have a bunch of different things. So you own stuff as funky as, like, a fireworks company called Alamo fireworks.
02:19
You own, like, a software
02:21
roll up called Dura software.
02:24
You have, like, a coffee chain, I think. Is that right? You have, like, your a drive through coffee chain that's got, like, three or four locations or something like that.
02:31
And then you incubate couple, couple projects one of a one one of which I used actually recently called Near, which is like a way a easy way to hire
02:40
people in in Latin America,
02:42
And I found this awesome dude, you know, not a plug for near necessarily, but it did work. It did work exactly as intended. I found this awesome operations guy for my e commerce business there, Nikko,
02:53
so so yeah. So that's what you do. And,
02:56
I don't know. Sam, where do you wanna start? We could we can go into into kind of level or we could dive into any of the details. Where do you wanna start? He put together this really good document that explains all the different businesses. But to summarize, it looks like it's like eight or nine or ten of them. And so so I understand the size. It's over a hundred million in revenue, right, and over seven hundred fifty employees for all eight or ten of these.
03:17
Yes. Whenever
03:19
I hear people be like, okay. Yeah. My my kind of the accumulation of the businesses that I own some percentage ownership stake in is worth over a hundred million dollars or like a real estate guy will be like, you know, I have a billion dollar real estate portfolio
03:31
in my head, and I'm I'm sure there's a bunch of listeners who are like this too. They're like, what does that mean? Are you a bill? Like, are you are you super loaded? Is this a, like, what how do I think about that number? Right? Because, like, you know, if I get a salary, that's the money I keep. If I run a business and I say top line revenue, that's not the money I get to keep. So when you own a you own a hundred percent of your holdco and your holdco owns businesses that add up to over a hundred million of revenue. Does that mean you're just big ball of the shot calling? Are you paying yourself, like, ten million dollars a year or more out of out of profits of these businesses, or what does that really mean? Yeah. Well, I mean, part of the way I've set up the structure is, like, I wanted to be very flex in terms of strategy. So there's some stuff in here that's just like compounders. Like,
04:12
Dura, for example, like, we wanna be the next constellation software someday. So, like, I don't that's just compounding. The money I put into that and the effort and time, and I put into it. Like, I don't I don't get cash flow from that stuff. But that's by design. Like, I'm just a long term player and a long term person on all this stuff. You know, the things we went through, just kind of the ten big holdings that I have. Those are all things that I have fifty, sixty, thirty, forty percent of company. So it's not like I I I totally am with you. Like, I've I, you know, I I felt stressed being like, okay. Well, I don't wanna be the guy coming in bullshitting about a bunch of numbers. But also, like, I'm from Texas and, like, like, I have a hard time, like, bragging and being, like, well, okay. Here's some here's what my net worth is, and here's how much money I make it all, stuff. So I'm trying to balance it out to where we can actually get there, without getting past my comfort zone. How do we let's let's not balance that out. Let's just go to the other end and make it incredibly uncomfortable.
05:03
Tell me how
05:05
your net worth, your checking account number, and what it felt like when you lost your virginity
05:10
You can make one go now.
05:13
Really drunk.
05:14
Four.
05:15
And,
05:16
yeah.
05:19
Yeah. Let's let's let's really gonna do it. And it's like, oh, you don't wanna reveal you don't wanna reveal your computer science, that's fine. Just tell me about your net worth then. We'll settle for that.
05:29
But in in seriousness, there's like a a mental model for these businesses. Right? Like, some businesses, like you call it a compounder. Right? It's like
05:36
if you go into a business like this, you're gonna put up it only takes x dollars to start.
05:42
And then it takes y years kinda get to some good outcome. Like, like, I'll just give you, like, a venture startup. Right? Like, I come from the Silicon Valley venture world. Silicon Valley venture world, as you put zero dollars of your own money up, But you're gonna raise likely somewhere between three and three hundred million from venture capitalists over time.
05:58
You shouldn't expect to see any big money until you exit, which is on average seven to ten years. And so, like, that's the profile of that versus my e commerce business.
06:07
Took, I don't know. I put in six hundred k to start it. Like, that was my first kind of year commitment that I had to put in.
06:16
But we can take quarterly profits now. You know, a year or two, we could take quarterly profits if we wanted to. We decided to roll that into growth But we think that by three or three or four, we should be seeing pretty healthy, you know, quarterly profits that will pay for a a suite lifestyle. Right? So that's like just to paint a picture of what type of business you're getting into. Most people don't know how the holdco business works. So give me those sorts of, like, what does it take to start? How long do you have to wait to get a payday? How big are those pay you know, are you playing a software game? Like, a VC software game? You can make a billion dollars. Ecommerce unlikely to happen, but you can pretty safely make tens of millions of dollars if you do it right. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think
06:55
My theory on stuff is it's been incredibly difficult to find good opportunities over the past five years. So I've structured stuff that I wanna be able to do any opportunity that comes through the door. Right? And so, like, so so the danger is, say, for example,
07:08
I run across
07:09
a fun idea to work on that you know, maybe is in the roll up space. Well, like, like, that's gonna require outside capital. Right? Dura required outside capital. My partner and I who started the business. He's former head of support for Rackspace. He's a CEO of the business now. We put up our own money to do the first acquisition, and then we start when we ran out of money, right after a couple of million dollars, We had to go out and raise money. And so that's playing that kind of VC compounding game that I talked about. You know, other stuff, like the coding boot camp that we start, like, that pays me money every month. It's it's similar to what you're talking about.
07:42
So, you know, those the thing I like about those kind of cash flowy LLCs and stuff like that is, like, you know, the upside isn't as good. Like, you can't have a billion dollar exit in that stuff twenty years from now, but you could start cash flowing really quickly. So I like to have a blend of all these things because you can't you can't live on appreciation. How much a pro how much profit does the hundred million make? Or I think you you said over a hundred million, but we let's just say it's a hundred million. How much profit does it actually make? And of, let's say that you own thirty percent of one company that makes
08:11
ten million in profit, do do you say, like, alright. We're gonna take of that ten million, we're gonna
08:17
take out three million in profit. We own thirty percent. We get one million. Yeah. Well, I
08:22
typically the stuff in a portfolio for small businesses like this is gonna end up run fifteen to twenty percent, you know, EBIT emergence.
08:31
So then you'd do a calculus and say, okay. Well, based on that, like, free cash flow, potential margins, like, okay, you gotta pay off debt service and all that kind of stuff if you have it. And then is it better for you to take the money out or should you reinvest it inside the business?
08:44
And by and large, most of these things are reinvesting because I don't have better places to put the money than reinvesting in assets and new acquisitions and all that kind of stuff.
08:53
Which business is the best cash cow? Is it like, you know, the the fireworks company where it's like, well, it's open, like, three months a year, and it just prints prints profits for three months, and then we, like, don't have to think about it for the nine. Like, I I know that's true. I'm just saying that out loud. Which business is the best one and why is it fireworks?
09:13
Dude fireworks
09:14
here's why I love fireworks. It was the first business that started my whole platform, and I was the CEO of it. And it is the hardest business in the world to run. Like, it the cash flow sucks. Like, we we aren't even open yet for fourth of July. We open in two more days. And we've been spending money to get ready for it the way through the through,
09:31
since January the second. And you have to predict what's gonna happen six to twelve months ahead of time. And then you have to put up all the cash for it, buy all the fireworks, get all the locations out of it. We have two hundred locations
09:42
across the state of Texas, and then open them all up. And then we really don't break even until about seven or eight PM on the night of the fourth of July. So it is when I ran that business, that was where I cut my teeth as a CEO, like, it was the hardest business to run to where I went to these other businesses and people would like pay you before you delivered the service or, like, Like, when we started the the coding boot camp was the second business. And I was like, you mean they pay us before we teach them the classes? Like, this is amazing. I thought it was the greatest thing ever. Every other business feels like it how much revenue does a fire one do? Fireworks?
10:14
It's multiple tens of millions.
10:16
Yeah. No shit. That makes, let's say, twenty, thirty, forty million dollars selling fireworks
10:21
for
10:22
two weeks? We do it twice a year,
10:25
fourth for the fourth of July, and then we do it again for New In Texas, it's warm enough that actually New Year's is more pleasant than any place else. Yeah. Lee, that's amazing. And that's and that's quite profitable. If you do well for the the the, like, the the remaining, like, three hours and that three hours, you make all your profit.
10:42
All your profit. Because everybody shows up at the last minute. That's the other part. I didn't tell you. Yeah. Nobody buys anything until the last day because consumers have this habit of not doing things ahead of time. So that that business is kind of an ugly business then,
10:55
because it's like you have to predict things. And then, I don't know, the world is very unpredictable the last few years.
11:01
So you have to predict demand. You have to operate really well in a very tight time crunch. Like, all your demand gets squeezed into this tiny pipe.
11:09
You're putting up all the cash upfront. So you're taking some some some risk there. Did you your clever guy, did you come up with any clever operating hack to, like, make that business suck less that other firework people don't really do? Yes. We have a bunch of those. I didn't come up with any of them. The thing I realized, and this was about fourteen, fifteen years ago, I actually really suck at optimizations. Like, I wanna live at, like, eighty thousand feet with, like, big ideas and strategy and do what we're doing right here. Right? Like, I wanna live in an idea space. And what I realized about six years into running that business was I am precisely the wrong person to run this business because what you're talking about is just like game of inches where you have to be like optimizing stuff all the time. And, like, I find that incredibly boring. Like, that is the most, like, that and accounting and HR are, like, the three most boring things you'd ask me to do in my life. And what we've done is a ton of those kind of optimizations. Like, that business has exploded in the past five years. No pun intended.
12:03
But through just getting the right people on the field, and it means me not doing it because I absolutely am the wrong, perfect wrong person to run that business. But we do a bunch of different stuff. Like, we brought,
12:14
digital point of sale to that business. It used to be handwritten for a long number of years.
12:19
So some pretty basic stuff that you're like, really, it took that long. But, yeah, We we've done all that kind of stuff, but the it's the royal we. It's not me.
12:28
How much money did you you said you started this thing two million dollars of you and your partner's money. And then is the rest, like, a fund that you raised?
12:35
So,
12:36
so Dura was something I started we started with their own money. The fireworks business, I got that the old fashioned way. I it's a family business. I inherited it.
12:45
So that's why you're like, how this kind of with the fireworks business? I I was told I have a fireworks business now, and
12:52
it's great.
12:53
What about the other things? Did you have to break? So it's like, is is each one like its own, you raise money for each one if you need to raise money or you just use your own money. Yep. Just, if if I need to syndicate the deal, I syndicate the deal with other people.
13:09
You know, what I've learned and I only do is I hate raising money for stuff unless I'm putting my own money in it. I'll put a substantial amount of my net worth and new stuff. And then when I go out to raise money, I feel like not yucky. Otherwise, I feel yucky. But yeah. Which of the business? Okay. So we thought maybe the fireworks business is the best one. It turns out that's kind of a a a pretty pretty gnarly business. What Which of your businesses would you say is, like, the most in the cash flow category? Like, it's just so beautiful because it works. It's just it just worked right away. Didn't take a ton of money. It's,
13:43
you know, it's profitable.
13:45
It's not like this brutal business to operate. Which which one do you like the best? Yeah. The coding boot camp is the best one. It's all services, low CapEx.
13:54
And then, I mean, the thing I like the most about it, like, it it actually, like, helps people. Like, changes their lives, and that's not bullshit, by the way. Like, you'll you'll notice a theme. Like, on all this stuff, I'd really, like, enjoy helping people, and it it's a life transformation thing when people go through that and get a better job. Clearly, you've never had a bottle rocket fight, man. Because those are pretty amazing too.
14:19
How big is the
14:23
that is that is,
14:25
low eight figures. That's amazing.
14:28
And very profitable?
14:30
That runs kinda consistent with what we're talking about, that fifteen to twenty percent even emergence. And and so, so you got a bunch of these. So,
14:38
I like your Twitter because,
14:41
you talk about a bunch of things that I think most people aren't talking about. My feed is very, like, don't know. My Twitter feed is just like the same crypto people, the same Silicon Valley people. And then there's, like, five people
14:52
that are, like, just, you know, different. And I think your friends with all of them. Like, that guy Molson, I think is like a total nut. I find him his feet to be hilarious.
14:59
You're kind of a nut. You're hilarious.
15:01
There's this guy Jay Vassava, blah blah blah. I don't know how to say his last name, exactly, long Indian, last name. He's super smart. And, like, people just don't follow you guys in the same, like, to the same level as I think you should.
15:13
Like, I'll make a list of these people. I'll tweet it out because I think you guys are all way more entertaining on Twitter than than most.
15:19
But I wanna read you a couple of tweets, and I want you to just kinda riff on, like, kind of explain it,
15:25
but riff on what you you mean there, like, what was the kind of the golden thing there? So,
15:31
you had one about going to
15:33
touristy places, but doing non tourist things, you were tweeting out, like, you were in China.
15:38
You're tweeting out, like, what a a paper recycling
15:43
mill Like, what is waste paper from the US? Where does it go once we, like, where does the waste paper go? And you, like, found where it goes at China? It was this gnarly
15:52
factory.
15:53
And so, like, I don't know if you're you could talk about that or just this idea of going going on vacation or going to a touristy place, but then hitting the non touristy parts of that country.
16:02
Talk a little about that. Yeah. Well, that was a I mean, that was a business trip. Like, I was there
16:07
training the team and helping them go learn how to buy fireworks.
16:11
And, like, we were just, like, driving down the road. And, like, literally, so the process of going to buy fireworks
16:17
is there is like a Silicon Valley of fireworks and it's in China. And it's about a two hour flight from Hong Kong in the southeast of China. And you go to this place and Like, it's the same thing every day. You go the Chinese take you to a fancy dinner and there's always the same restaurant, the same food. And then they take you to a factory and then they shoot you some fireworks and hopefully you buy And that happens, like, for six days in a row. And then and you have to drink a bunch of nasty biju? They just they have, like, Budweiser Chinese Budweiser.
16:43
They serve you, and it's pretty fun. Ching down. Yeah. It's pretty fun.
16:48
But yeah, after, like, the fourth year of doing that, like, I was there with with the team. And I was we were, like, driving along and I was just so sick of going to yet another fireworks factory because they all look the same. It was just, like, the same little old ladies, like, doing the same thing, and all the fireworks workers, by the way, are like seventy years old. They can't hire young people to work in fireworks factories. This is crazy. And I was like, what is that over there? And, and they're like, oh, that's the box factory. And I was like, a box factory. Let's go over there. And so they pull over to the side of the road. The driver goes in. And, the Chinese seller to us, like, takes us in for a tour of this box factory.
17:21
And for me, it was just like an opportunity to kind of push a little bit and, like, really get underneath and understand, like, how a culture, like, lives and really functions. And, like, he told us, like, look, they're they're having problem making boxes now because they can't put the wastewater directly in the river anymore. I was like, oh, this is why things are so cheap at China.
17:39
But yeah, that's it. Like, just, you just kinda start wandering and then magic happens so that one of those What type of trip was that? Where you bring a bunch of Texas firework workers to China and, like,
17:50
I just imagine, like, just like, what the fuck is this soy sauce shit? You know what I mean? Just like imagine that conversation.
17:57
That was you must've had a blast. Hanging out with a bunch of, Texas fireworks guys and a bunch of Chinese fireworks guys. You guys, that that we really got brought together there on that one.
18:09
Our love of blown shit up. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm somewhat worldly. The guy the guy that we took on the trip, actually, the COO for the business is a former
18:18
a former senior military officer who's Romania and lives here in San Antonio now used to work for Aldi, and they didn't know what to make of him. Like, they were just totally confused why we had a Romanian with us, like, going through rural China. So it's pretty good times.
18:31
Have you had any of these other, like, Have you intentionally gone and sort of gone off the beaten path to, like because I feel like what you're when I look at your your Twitter feed, you've sort of accumulated
18:41
a bunch of random disparate business knowledge. And a lot of this comes from like, oh, you see a guy selling something on the street. You're like, hey, so what is this? Where does this come from? Do you do this? Right? That sort of thing. Can you tell any other stories of, you know, sort of like intentionally stumbling into interesting things? Because I think more people should do that.
19:00
And I wanna kind of like, you know,
19:02
hear some of those stories.
19:05
It's a really good question. Need to think of a good I need to think of a good answer. I'm glad we're I'm glad this is being edited.
19:12
When have I done that the most?
19:16
Yeah. We went down one one time we went down. This is super interesting.
19:21
You know, our business Dura has some employees in Medellin in Columbia, you know, where Pablo Escobar is from. So we went down there to just kinda like start wandering around and like meet our employees and like understand should we out source more here.
19:34
And we just started like going around with a guide and just like asking people questions. Like, what do you think of Americans? What is it like here? And Like you just start to see random stuff. I mean, the reason I started the coffee business, by the way, is, like, I was riding my bike around
19:48
Arkansas. And I'm like just riding outside the Walmart headquarters because like I'm a business nerd and staring at the Walmart headquarters.
19:54
And, like, there's this, like, drive through coffee shop there. It was COVID, and I was bored. And I so I just sat there for an hour. And these guys were just printing money. And I came home and I called my buddy who I'd wanted to work with for years. And I was just like, hey, we should start a coffee business. And he said why? And I sent him the pictures. I was like, look at all these people. They're just like printing money.
20:12
So it's just kind of this idea of just like For me, like, like, the way I build ventures and the way I find them is just kind of by, like, stumbling around like an idiot. And then, like, you end up in front of the Walmart headquarters and watch some guys sell on millions of dollars worth of coffee.
20:27
So yeah, that's another story.
20:29
And does, you went to the Berkshire Hathway
20:33
like summit, which I think is kinda like a pilgrimage
20:36
for, like, business people slash entrepreneurs.
20:38
It's like, you gotta go visit the mecca.
20:41
And, like, you see the old kind of religious, you know, leader, you know, the the ninety year old guru sitting there and,
20:48
Is it worth it? Should I go? You definitely gotta go at least once. I mean, it was, like, so I'm forty seven. So, like, I always regretted. I didn't see Jared Garcia before he died. And, like, that was the way I felt about seeing Charlie and Warren. And, and, you know, it's like one of those things where I was kind of happy to be there because it felt like a once in a time thing, and the people watching is amazing. Like, it's like it's like the combination of, like,
21:11
cash, like investing and, like, a NASCAR race. Like, it's perfect.
21:15
So just had so much fun doing it. But it's also kind of, you know, I feel like going at this point, like, Charlie and Warner are getting up there. Like, they're ninety two and ninety ate. Like,
21:25
the morning, you know, Warren spent a lot of time just kinda trying to find his words. And then he got into a rhythm and it was like he was his old self again, and it was pretty awesome. But I think if you're a capitalist, you gotta go once. You just gotta go once because you're just like
21:38
it's just such it's just such an insane experience seeing these people so devoted to the company dropping two hundred and fifty dollars on a pair of roper boots or Justin Boots and then walking over and drooling over, like, how they can buy, like, a sunbeam boat. Like, it's just like,
21:52
just the coolest thing. So you gotta go at least once. Sam, have you been? No.
21:57
I was invited to go. I think you and I were invited with Siva and Suli, and I didn't go. Is I guess I I guess I would go just to see it.
22:05
Dude, those guys are old. Aren't they, like, isn't Charlie Munger, like, ninety three?
22:10
Ninety eight.
22:11
Oh my god.
22:13
Yeah. I got a next year. It would have to be the yeah. I guess next year would have to be, like,
22:18
the last one maybe.
22:19
You gotta go just to watch him and see how much peanut brittle he eats in a four hour setting. Like, it was unreal. The guy ate like four pounds of peanut brittle.
22:29
And when I, like, live tweeted to think, like, it was like, I can't believe he's still eating this much, Peter Brodeau. I'm forty seven. There's no way I could do that. He was just sitting there pounding it the whole time. Dude, that that peanut brittle from seas is fire. I feel that. It it is pretty amazing. These guys have, like, they have the most success and they do the opposite of what every, like, you know, success coach and, like, motivational
22:49
entrepreneur,
22:50
you know, tells you to do. It's like, you know, they're like, you know,
22:53
it's like if you would go on Instagram, it's like, oh, I need to, you know, wake up at five AM. I need to, you know, meditate, I need to do my ice plunge, then I need to do my crossfit workout, then I need to, like, you know, do my daily gratitude journal, then I need to do my, like, hyperfocus chamber where I go and I figure out my priorities for the day, then I need to like speed read and listen to my podcast on two x speed. And these guys are basically like
23:14
You know, they somehow made it to they became the richest people in the world lived until they, you know, until they're about a hundred years old, and they wake up every day. They eat McDonald's breakfast. A bunch of M and M's diet cokes, and then they read and play bridge all day, like go for walks.
23:27
And, you know, that's where they get their their their ideas from.
23:31
And so, you know, I think there's something to what they're doing. I think it's a, you know, I think they're still alive because they're low stress despite what they eat. And I think they're they're smart thinkers because they don't overload their brain with information.
23:43
Like, I'm guilty of, and I think a bunch of people are when you're hooked into social media, you're just constantly consuming info.
23:50
This data is wrong. Every freaking time.
23:53
Have you heard of HubSpot?
23:55
HubSpot is a CRM platform where everything is fully integrated. Well, I can see the client's whole history, calls, support tickets, emails, and Here's a test from three days ago. I totally missed.
24:08
HubSpot,
24:08
grow better.
24:11
What of your of the things in your,
24:14
the the things in your portfolio? Which company besides the,
24:19
besides the the boot camp? Are you, like, This is just the greatest thing ever. I'm so happy we own this.
24:25
I more people should know how easy or not easy, but how straightforward
24:30
this business on. It feels like I'm winning in easy mode.
24:34
Yeah. Well, I think
24:36
the near business, so it's higher with Near dot com. So it actually this is a this is the this is the apex of what I want for Goodly existence to be, which is I want I've gone from starting businesses myself and working in them than starting businesses and having other people work in them. And this is one that has started basically with me doing no work, but I have substantial amount on the cap table. Like, it's the apex of girdly automation. Like, I'm always scaling stuff. So the newer business, like, We looked up and, like, like, I I'm in a CEO peer group and, like, none of my peers could, like, hire people. Like, it was the past couple of years. They're just such a mess. And then I'd ask them, well, have you considered hiring overseas?
25:13
And, they're like, I don't know how to do that. How would I do that? So we we we basically, I took one of my associates and I said, hey, we should go build in this direction. There's this huge wave, and here's this problem. Let's go try some stuff and see what happens.
25:25
And that business I like so much just because everything seems like it's on easy mode because everybody's offshoring. Like, everybody wants to do this. It was that way when the economy was going well. Now it's even more so when the economy's going poorly.
25:37
And I've hired personally of my associates. I have three of the six. That work
25:43
work overseas. I've never met him in person. It's like the best.
25:46
And you partnered with someone to make this, according to the About page. Right?
25:50
Yeah. So, Hayden is started as an associate of mine. So I hire these, people I call them associates, and it's basically an ner in training program. So I, like, mentored them through. I pay them a salary.
26:01
And then I helped them, like,
26:04
get out of the, like, twelve bad ideas that every entrepreneur has to get when they're twenty seven years old. I help them, like, think through all those, and then we work on a good idea together. Then at the end of it, they can either start a company with me or they can go take a job or whatever. And so Hayden and Franco were two of the guys in that program. And, like, I'm on the cap table with them. Like, I put up the money and I've been guiding them through it, but they've done all the work.
26:26
When you're hiring CEOs, how much equity do you give them? And how much, how much do you pay them? And how do you incentivize them to wanna stay with you for a long time?
26:34
Yeah. So it totally depends upon the situation.
26:37
You know, obviously, if a business is much more established,
26:41
or demand somebody who's, like, much more, like,
26:45
like mature.
26:46
That that makes a situation where oftentimes you have to come up with more.
26:50
My best situations are when I can partner with somebody. So all this stuff I'm in while I have significant stakes in it. I have other people on the cap tables. Like, that's one of my, like, I feel like super powers. Like, I can just, like, maintain partnerships. Like, I have a hundred percent success rate on partnerships with people. So the absolute best way is if I can get somebody like Paul at Dura is to be like a co founder And the absolute best way of that is if they're a co founder and they put money in it like me, and then they make that their job. Like, that's the absolute best kid in the game kind of outcome.
27:20
But, you know, you can have anywhere from a twenty seven year old who will make sixty to eighty k a year plus benefits
27:27
to some of these people who are much more senior, like our coffee,
27:30
our coffee person, you know, he worked at twenty five years at Circle k, and he's running He's running that business.
27:37
He obviously needs to make much more money than that.
27:40
And then the equity really depends. Totally depends on the opportunity. It depends on how much skin in the game they wanna have. What level of commitment they have and how early they're coming in the venture, but it could be anywhere from forty percent to twenty percent to five percent.
27:53
And why does, let's say, for Dura?
27:56
Why does your partner wanna give you what it let's call it. Let's pretend you have thirty percent. I don't know what you have. Maybe it's fifty, maybe it's a little less. Let's just say thirty percent. Why did you wanna have give you thirty percent? And he's day to day in it, but you're not. Right? So how do you think about that? Like, value exchange?
28:13
When you're not gonna be the operating person and then they are.
28:16
Yeah. Well, I mean, it so you're asking that question from the same lens I have, which is like being an operator isn't our dream. Most people there are their dream is to be an operator. They're excited.
28:27
When we're able to work together and create an opportunity for them to be their best self. Right? And that's what I see kind of as that benefit.
28:35
And so And and so I think a situation like that where, like, you know, oftentimes, I'm part of the very early figuring out what the idea is gonna be.
28:43
I'm putting up a substantial amount of money. I put up more money than than say the other partners did.
28:48
We did some debt to do the first deal. Like, I personally guaranteed it. And then the last thing is, like, like, great teams. They have these complimentary things. Like How much money would you use to fund a new business? That one was, like, a couple million. And then some of these are, like, fifty to a hundred. Wow. Okay. So that's We do put up a lot of money.
29:06
Yeah. So Yeah. It's skin in the game matters.
29:09
Then that also helps me not to try to do too many things. Like, I can just be like, okay. Like, I'm putting real money in this. I better really believe in it.
29:17
But, like, like, the last thing with these operators is a lot of the things I feel like I bring to the business where it's, like, strategy insights,
29:24
like, best practices and connections. Like, those are things that they're happy to have somebody along on the journey with them who has the same level of commitment.
29:32
And wants to be a board member. Like, I I don't want their job. And I I'm not I wouldn't be good at it. So, you know, I think that's that's the partnership I end up having with these folks.
29:40
Sean, have you heard of, this guy named Kevin Ryan?
29:44
Only through you. He's like a media. Right? Is that is that the same guy?
29:48
Yeah. So Mike. Have you heard of this guy? Kevin Ryan. I'm googling him. Alright. So I think they're Mike. There's probably a billion Kevin Ryan. So, like, maybe a baseball, that's a baseball player. Oh, he's the alley poor guy. Might come up. So
30:00
Yeah. So listen to this guy.
30:02
So early in his career, he worked like in the newspaper business. Nothing particularly exciting. And
30:07
then he worked at this company called DoubleClick, and he was, like, the thirtieth employee there, and then took over as CEO, and then DoubleClick was sold for, like, a billion or many billion. And it eventually became adsense for Google. So, like, pretty big thing. He told me that he had made, like,
30:23
very low digit eight eight figures. He was like, it was enough money that, like, I'm set, but, like, I still wanted to, like, create stuff. And so him and this guy named Dwight, who I think he worked with that double click,
30:35
they started Ally Corp. And their whole thing was we're gonna fund companies with two hundred to three hundred thousand dollars and all of the ideas are gonna come from us. All the ideas are only gonna be back at the envelope math, and we're gonna hire someone to get it off the ground, and we're gonna give it three hundred thousand and six months to prove if this is a good idea or a bad idea. And we're gonna do it a bunch of times. A few of their successes that they've done this with are
31:01
mongo dot mongo DB, which I don't know what it's at now, but in the range of like a twenty to fifty billion dollar
31:07
market cap publicly traded software business. The second one is business insider, which sold for six hundred million, I think, but it's like a big company now. The third one is guilt guilt group, which was a clothing company that was huge. It it didn't actually work out, but it was huge for a little while. And I think the fourth one. There's another oh, the fourth one is Zola. You guys know Zola. It's like where you go for wedding registries. I believe that's a unicorn. And they're at might actually be two or three more of these companies that Ali Corp has, like,
31:37
founded. And, basically, he was like, yeah. So me and Dwight just sat around and we come up with, like, a cool idea. Like, I go to a wedding and I just ask people where they bought all the gifts and, like, he's, like, I just had this idea. So I knew someone who worked at Gil Group, who mentioned she liked this type of business, I hollored at her. I go, Hey, here's three hundred k if you can get this going, and you get a small portion, but we get most of it. You wanna try it? And that's how it works. It it's a he he's pretty amazing.
32:01
Specialist. That's impressive.
32:05
Of
32:06
it's like, yeah. I was like, yeah, those guys are really good. There's
32:09
this, like, hold co model is, it's like in vogue. Right? Because it's sort of like to me, I I worked at a startup studio for a while. I think that was, like, the thing for a period of time probably still is a thing where Yeah. You build one company. You run it for a while. You sell it. Great.
32:25
Now you got cash. You still wanna do more entrepreneurial things.
32:29
And so you've self fund a studio where, like, we're gonna work on a bunch of ideas, and then you try to find, like, new winners out of those bunches bunches of ideas. And so, like, you know, I worked at out of one
32:39
That's how I got into tech.
32:41
You know, Mark Pincus, the guy who created Zinga, then he created one, the guy who created Uber. He created one. Kevin Rose created one. Like, it's just a bunch of serial entrepreneurs who create these. If they've actually had a pretty poor track record of success,
32:54
And then we see the, like, the holdco mafia is sort of the same where you get, you know,
32:59
guys like Andrew Wilkinson who's got tiny, and then you have you know, bunch of other people who are doing their own holdco
33:05
versions of that, whether they buy boring businesses, they buy sweaty businesses, they buy software businesses. They buy whatever.
33:13
And you're kind of in that boat. You're in that boat too.
33:16
What do you think is the
33:18
I guess, like, how do you think about that? You know, in terms of, like, who do you think should be the type of person who who should do this? And and what are some of the misconceptions or, like, traps that people fall into when they go down this path because I'm sure you've seen a bunch. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think there's two there's two bad things going on with Holdcoast right now. I think there's a whole group of people
33:36
that are doing them and they actually,
33:40
think it's not that much work.
33:42
Like, I talked to him and I'm like, so why are you doing this? They're like, it seems really easy. I'm like, this is really hard. And the reason number two that it's like super hard is because this is exactly the opposite of operations. Like the everything that you do and all the habits and skills that you learn when you are a CEO
34:00
running a business, which is where most of these people are coming from or you're a senior exec in a company. Like, everything you do in a holdco is exactly the opposite. Like, like when there's a problem, you don't rush in and fix it for your company. You actually say, man, that really sucks. What are you gonna do about that? Two entirely different things in terms of the way you approach it. So, I mean, it'll be interesting to see what happens with all these people who think holdcoast are really hot.
34:23
As I talk to most of them I don't think as many of them are wired to be Holdco people as they really think they are. Like, the Me's, the Xavier, Helkinson's, like, like, we're odd. Like, we're different people. And there's a reason for that that we're not operators. And so it'll be it'll be interesting to see what happens, with some of these people. What's so hard about it? You know, I think it goes against people's nature. Right? So, like, like, take me, for example, like, I love to live in this idea space, right? And I'm I have like a relatively crappy memory, which is like why I have to write stuff down like crazy.
34:56
But that's different for other people. Like a lot of the people that I partner with as operators, they look at, like, what I do as
35:02
insanity because they just couldn't imagine letting go of the vine of these particular things going on. And so, you know, it goes against this human nature where a lot of times, like, for example, those people, like, there's this problem going on in the business. They wanna sprint to that problem. Right? And they can't imagine even stepping away from it. So it just goes against, in my opinion, who you are as a person and makes it almost incredibly difficult or impossible for the many people. Yeah. Say that, but at the same time, I'm like, oh, everybody I know is like, oh, I like to operate at a high level, you know, the ten thousand foot view. And I'm an ideas guy. Anyone that doesn't think they're an ideas guy. Maybe I was running the wrong circles, but, you know, I don't know a lot of people who are like, you know what? I like to grind the operate likes to go grind the day to day optimizations
35:43
versus I like to be the idea guy who helps just get it started. And somebody else goes and does all the hard work. You know, that seems like seems like there's a ratio of a hundred idea guys to every one guy who's just truly loves executing.
35:56
You ever heard of ExcelDog? That's my jam.
35:59
Oh, no. No. You
36:02
I lived in the Silicon Valley bubble too. Like, I was I fit right in. I was great there. Then I came back here to the the intro lands of San Antonio and like I started to see these people and like I've got buddies who, for example, are senior executives at the largest private grocery chain in America H EB. Have you guys heard of this company? Yeah. I love H EB. It's like my favorite grocery store. It's it's insane.
36:23
You should see how optimized those guys are when they're running at three or four percent even in margins. And, like, they think it's great. Tell me everything.
36:31
About HV? Yeah.
36:33
What what do you wanna know?
36:36
Like, what what why what makes it so great? It all comes down to it all comes down to the philosophy of the family that owns it. So you have Charles butt who is the majority owner and then his his relatives are the other rest of the owners, and then they have a percentage that's owned by the employees. But it's like eighty five ninety percent owned by by by these guys.
36:56
And so they'll just do crazy stuff. Like, when they heard,
37:00
when they heard that Trader Joe's was coming to San Antonio. So HEP is located here. There's an anecdote that they just packed up all the senior executives who were in charge of product selection,
37:11
location selection, interior, store experience, all that stuff. On a private jet and they flew out to,
37:17
to California and said, don't come back until you have the best of every single one of their products because we need to up our game.
37:23
There's another anecdote when Walmart came to San Antonio
37:26
that HEB
37:27
went and lowered their profit targets. They're just like, we're not losing to Walmart. That's just the way it's gonna work. And that all emanated from the ownership. Right? You didn't have this, like, public stock people coming in and saying, like, oh, like, think by quarter. Now you had these folks that were thinking, like, we've been here for seventy years, how are we gonna be here for another seventy years, and just go crush it. And that goes all the way down the culture.
37:48
My buddy works there. And he said it took ten years,
37:53
before people stopped referring to him as the new guy.
37:57
People just stay. Yeah. I imagine that in Silicon Valley.
38:01
Of all the it sounds like to you that, like, HEB is almost like a dream business. We're not business, but it's one that, like, you look at and you're like, damn, that is cool. That is well run. I I admire a few things about that. What else do what other companies do you admire that most people don't maybe know about or think about when it's like, oh, that's actually really neat for these following reasons.
38:19
Really good question.
38:22
What other businesses are super sexy?
38:24
I feel like I've talked a lot about it. But it's just like thing things where it's like,
38:31
man, this is these guys got it made. They they're it's hard work, but it seems like it's like a pretty fun. And I think that what they're doing has a lot of soul and they're doing it right.
38:40
Sam, do you have one while he's there?
38:43
Yeah.
38:45
I mean, it does seem like it's a lot of family guy stuff. I would say,
38:48
Do you guys do you guys know black
38:50
black rifle coffee? I've heard of them, but I don't know much about them. I don't drink.
38:55
So I don't really drink too much of it. I drink the black stuff because their stuff has a lot of sugar. They're typically drank by, like, conservatives. Like, they've, like, do the they've done, like, they advertise on They've done, like, a good job of, it, like, like, this is made in America. It's all about freedom. Like, that whole thing, which is, well, you know, whatever. That's cool. And but they're, like, Yeah. Let's sponsor rally, dirt rally race cars. And I asked them. I was like, why? And they're like, it's because it's freaking awesome. And, like, what's the point of, like, having this company if we can't do dope shit? Like, you know, go to a go to a rally car and give out our coffee.
39:28
And they'll do it with, like, mountain biking races or they'll do it with, like, they make all this, all this cool content where they're just, like, doing, like, the redneck version of red bull stunts.
39:37
You know, like,
39:39
and I think that's awesome. I love that stuff. I think that to me, I imagine in their heads, they're like, Yeah. They're like, we kinda care about coffee, but we really just care about living a really cool, amazing life and letting people have fun. And it just so happens or we're we're selling a bunch of coffee, allows us to to do that. So that's a good example of a of a business that I like. And they took it public, and it's worth like six or seven hundred million dollars. So it's like really successful.
40:03
Yeah. They're located here in San Antonio. Have you seen it's it's super cool that that business, you would think it's like a coffee chain, and it's actually just a lifestyle brand It's all, like, you go into the stores and there's, like, a little coffee thing on the side. And then it's, like, all t shirts and swag, and it's good looking stuff. Like, I'm not, like, their demographic, obviously, but, like, it's super fun to, like, go in there and be like, man, these guys, like, I'd wear that. You know, guys know.
40:26
I like them a lot. Sean, do you have one? You know,
40:29
I do I do have a couple.
40:32
I like to I kind of admire, like, oh, shit. That's simple. I like when it's really simple,
40:37
and the person has has, like, good life perspective.
40:40
So, the guy came on the podcast, Mike Brown. I met him through you. I met him at I went to the hustle office and he was he was just sitting there hanging out with you. And,
40:48
and you were like, this guy's great. You know, you know what's great about this guy? And and I think, Sam, you probably know the story a little better than I do, but, like, what they did was,
40:57
they would go around to families in Texas
41:00
that, that were, like, basically living on a gold mine. Right? It's like they they were living on some valuable deposit of, you know, minerals or oil or whatever. And they would go knock on doors and they would say, hey, you know, you
41:14
you're living on this land. I'll well, like, we'll pay you for the land rights in some way. And they would go of those assets, and then they would never go do the oil mining rate or oil oil drilling themselves, it would then flip that to the oil company and say, hey, look, we got the title rights, you know, clear and easy for that are in the earth, and they were making a killing. So they were making, you know,
41:34
I don't know, almost almost a hundred million dollars doing this. Is that right, Sam? Yeah.
41:39
I believe it was multiple eight figures in profit a year
41:43
with, like, a team of, like, eight people. And they're like, yeah. So It was super profitable super small. Super simple. It's like, well, basically we go knock on doors. We call people and we explain what we're doing, and then we make them an offer that they can't refuse.
41:56
You know, they're not gonna do anything sitting on that land. And so, you know, and to me, I'm like, this is so simple. You compete with pretty much nobody
42:04
And then you and then he was like, I was like, so your it looks like your brother's working the business. Like, how's that working with family? You know, some people say different things about that. And he was like, No. It's awesome. He's like, I love my brothers. He's like, you know,
42:17
he's like, my my philosophy is you, you know, you find the people that you love and you do life with them. And he said that they kinda changed the way I I operated. I was like, oh, yeah. Who are the people I wanna do life with? And, like, you know, just kinda pick the five people who are the most awesome and then find excuses to do life with them. That sounded really simple. It's like, oh, I love Sam. I'm gonna do a podcast with Sam. And it's like, oh, our buddy Ramon's awesome. Cool. I'm gonna go on vacation with Ramon. Or, you know, like, you want and, like, you know, hey, this person's awesome. Why don't you come work in one of my businesses? Right? Rather than just go work in your own job. So I really liked I kind of admired that philosophy and I admire just the, like,
42:53
sheer profits of what they were doing and how simple it was and how it didn't require,
42:58
you know, genius or like, honestly,
43:01
I'm sure he felt like he was working hard, but it's not that hard. Like, it's not Well, he used to say he was like, everyone we hire, we make him get into cycling because we all we like going bike riding for two hours in the middle of the day. He's like, we all we all wanna go for we all wanna go work out. Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of admire people who are the anti hard work crowd because I'm more of that like, you know, can you work smarter, not harder? And then can you even, like, not feel like you're working? Can you turn it into play by, you know, having people who are awesome, you know, doing it with you? I like that example. The other one is, Bill Simmons, who started the ringer. Like, I I really don't think media companies are a very good business. And, you know, ironically just started a media company, but, like, Bill Sam is this fucking awesome, and he kinda changed the game for
43:40
what he does. Like every sports journalist did things one way. He just did it differently and built his he built his following,
43:48
sort of unapologetically.
43:50
And What does he do differently?
43:52
So he just wrote it, like, he wrote from the perspective of a fan. And I that sounds actually that's actually giving it too much intellectual credit. Actually, what he did was he was like, alright. What are the rules if you're a journalist? It's like, you need to be objective. He's like, how can I be objective? Dude, I follow sports because I love the Boston red sox. I love the Celtics. I'm from Boston. I grew up. My dad used to take me to the game. She's like, I'm gonna write as, like, this
44:13
die hard fan. And when my team wins, I'm gonna be so happy when my team loses, I'm a Sky is falling. He's like, that, of course, was super relatable to a reader because that's who your reader is. It's like a die hard sports fan. So he, like, didn't pretend to be objective. That was, like, the first part. Then he would be like, cool. I'm also not just like this flat thing that, like, I can only,
44:32
like, talk about sports. So he's like, oh, you know, I love the die hard trilogy. So he'll write a column that's like, you know, if NBA players were characters in die hard, here's who would be Bruce Willis in die hard two. And, like, you know, he would do these crossovers that didn't nobody else really took those risks. It sounded crazy. Like, Sam, you know, you and me both watched MTV's the challenge. He's like a huge challenge fan, and he'll talk about it. And he has he'll do a separate podcast about it even though the audience is kinda niche, but it's so nice that when it hit, hits in a very big way. Like, it's a, like, has a high, like, emotional score when he does talk about something you get. You that that you're in on the joke fee. Like the trade value. He's one of your heroes or the mailbag. One of your business heroes. And, anyways, then he spun off to his own. He was doing podcasting before it was popular before it was like an obvious thing. And so when he he'd recently sold the whole company to Spotify for, like, two hundred something million,
45:20
but, you know, that I I kind of admired that because it was like, He deserves that. He was podcasting before podcasting was a thing. And so, yeah, he now has the number one sports podcast, and he can cash out and all along the way, there was never really any
45:35
plan you could draw up how that podcast was gonna make the guy two hundred million dollars someday. It was like, That was an unfathomable
45:41
thing, but he did it because he, again, it's kinda like your black rifle. Example, it's like, yeah, I'm just gonna do it because I think it's fun and it's cool shit. And, like,
45:49
I I kind of believe in this magic for this philosophy that if you take a bunch of cool shit, you put it in the in the hat, you kind of mix up the hat. Like,
45:57
something really good comes of that, and you don't have to be able to draw it out, you know, ahead of time. So I kinda I tend to love examples like that. Cause I wanna live my life more like that, where I just do things without so much of a of a of a mind map of exactly how it's all gonna pay off.
46:13
Dude, I love that. I think, I saw this amazing quote. I'm trying to find it, but it was from Kanye and he was, like, saying, I despise people who do things. I I can't find the exact quote, but he's like, I despise people who do stuff and they don't want it to be dope. He's like, I wanna if I'm gonna do a quote, if I were to do a clothing company, I'm making it dope, even if that means I lose money. I'm making it dope. I'm making it awesome. They kept using the word dope. And he's like, I'm just gonna do stuff because it's amazing. And, yeah, it'll probably make money. But for all the people out there who just do stuff just to get the money, but they don't wanna make it awesome in the process, I think that's really weak and not cool and not dumb. Have you heard that Dave Chapelle's story? He tells on, like, some late night show about kind of Yeah. Tell it. My life is dead. Yeah. I don't I don't remember the exact days. Like, hanging out with Kanye, then Kanye got a call. Who who was it? Somebody called them. Who was it? So it was, it was, Kanye was backstage with Dave Japan and Jay z. And Kanye was just coming up. And he was playing a,
47:08
a Jay z song, and Kanye's verse comes up. And Kanye is, like, the noob in the room, and he goes, Wait. Stop that track. Rewind that, and listen to that guy. And he, like, made him rewind. And then,
47:19
He's like, they're like, dude, what are you doing, man? You're not like the, you're not the big shot here. And then, he gets a phone call and he goes,
47:25
oh, hello?
47:27
Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. But, can I call you back?
47:31
Yeah. Well, I'm backstage watching never seen before clips with Dave Chapel. Yeah. Because my life's dope and I do dope shit, and then hangs up. I think that's
47:42
you're exactly.
47:44
I love that story. That is the best. And also,
47:47
like, that philosophy is actually kind of amazing. First of all, to believe in your own life being dope. Like, how many people
47:55
think that their life is dope, that they are dope, and they do dope shit. And therefore, they have a dope life. Like, most people don't give themselves that credit
48:02
And, you know, they're kinda waiting for dope stuff to happen for them to be able to say that. Kinda needs the opposite. Right? He's crazy in a bunch of ways, but one of the good ways he's crazy
48:11
is that he just declares my life is dope, and I do dope shit. And guess what? You'll kinda live up to that reputation
48:16
if you believe that about yourself. Right? Like, if you say, you know,
48:20
know, I take chances. You know, I'm I'm bold. I take I take bold risks. Well, guess what? You're gonna actually take the next bold risk when the opportunity presents itself because you've kind of hardwired yourself to to have that identity.
48:31
When we were Samuel like this at Bebo when, we hired this guy, Jason Hitchcock, and Jason was Jason's the best person you can hire because he will believe in you and the cause
48:44
a hundred and fifty percent. Like, he'll believe in you and the if you're, like, his boss and your manager, whatever, like, more than you believe in yourself. And he'll believe that the company's gonna work even more than the CEO's gonna believe. He's like, I call him a kool Aid drinker. Like, He drinks the Kool Aid, and he's not ashamed to do it. And so he he because of that, he's like the amazing person to have at a startup when there's a actually, a lot of people have a bunch of doubt and uncertainty in their mind, And so one day, I was talking to Jason. We were like,
49:10
the hustle con was coming around around the corner. And I was like, I think I had messaged you. I was like, I wanna talk at hustle con. And I think you were kinda like, yeah. Like, I'll I'll I don't know. We got a bunch of speakers already. You kinda blew it off. You're like, you know, we no. And, and I was like, alright. Fair enough, but I asked. And I was like, I was like, Jason, next year, we're gonna talk at Hussicon. I was like, in fact,
49:28
not just next year, we're gonna talk at Hussicon. In fact, everything we do this year I want you to think about how it's gonna play at your hustle con talk you're gonna give. When you're gonna give this talk about how we grew from one zero to a million users, how we took over the game in our industry, like, I want you to not just wake up and be like, okay. Today, I'm gonna send out a bunch of emails. It's like, I want you to think about how this could be part of your talk, like, how I landed the big fish through cold emails or how I, you know, growth hacked my way to do x. And we used to talk about that literally on a weekly basis, like, this is part of the house of contact. And it was just to hype ourselves up to, like, do the more dope version of the task we were already gonna do? Because, like, imagine you're gonna talk about this on stage. That means it must have turned out pretty dope or you must have done a pretty dope attempt in order to have that mindset. And I I'll I still carry that to this day of, like, that's a pretty cool way to work.
50:19
Here's the, here's here's the quote, by the way. So this is from Kanye. He said, for me, dopeness is what I like most.
50:26
People who wanna make things as dope as possible. And by default, make money from it. The thing that I like least are people who wanna make money from things, whether they're dope or not, especially make money from making things the least dope that's possible.
50:40
And I
50:41
I read that quote. And I was like, yeah. We need to make that intro of the plot. Cast. But find a clip of Kanye saying that out loud, and let's make that the the opening clip of the podcast.
50:52
The other thing we did, by the way, that's in this bucket that I highly recommend people do is it's tempting to say we should do cool shit. Yeah. Blah blah blah. And then, like, fast forward a month Evers feeling tight about the budget or the deadlines or the the the goal numbers are not being hit or whatever. It's very what's the first thing cut is the stuff that doesn't easily map to this quarter's result.
51:12
And
51:13
and so we separate we created a separate, do cool budget. It was fifteen percent of our total budget. We put into a do cool ship bucket, which
51:21
the outcome of it had to be where at, There's that Vivo, and then I tried to do this also at Twitch. Where? Which was like, hey, whatever the number is that we have to spend fifteen percent is gonna be on cool shit that we cannot, like, we it doesn't have a measurable immediate payoff. So that's like the criteria. You can't it can't be used in this much. Like, like, making a flamethrower. Like, making a flamethrower or, like, you know, I I don't know if you saw this. We did the milk red rebrand or whatever, and I paid this guy to make this little video that's like this mock Apple commercial.
51:51
And, like, it doesn't do anything. It's it's not gonna drive subscribers.
51:56
It's not gonna, like, make revenue.
51:59
It's I mean, in many ways, it is arguably a waste of time and money to just like pay the guy to do that and to even think about the concept and all that. But I've always had this with my companies, which is like, I need fifteen percent. I was like, at the very least, this is just to keep myself amused and engaged and, like, a fan of my own business. And I because I know if I'm, like, the if I'm just more engaged in my own business, I'm gonna do that part of a payoff. And at the other side, it's, like, I think your consumers
52:24
the customers of your business also pay attention
52:27
to that. If they see you doing dope shit just for the sake of doing dope shit,
52:31
they kinda see you as the cool kid in school in a way. Right? Like, if you're always just begging for for customers or users or doing a discounted sale or, like, saying, please, please, please, please, please subscribe. Like, you're kind of our low status in a way. And I think at the hustle, you guys did a good job too. Do you did you do? Do you have any examples of this? Yeah. Like, we did stuff early on that. We kinda, like, people got mad at, and I was like, they're like, you're gonna lose money, lose customers. I'm like, yeah, but it's hilarious. Like, one time,
52:58
we wrote entire
52:59
we wrote entire email
53:01
in Trump's voice. And so we're like, imagine, like, if you read it and you were saying loud. Like, that's it it would sound like you were Donald Trump.
53:08
Everybody loved it. Everybody's saying it's the best. People are saying that. They're saying it's the best. Yeah. Like, that's how it that's how it that's like how it was written.
53:16
And then another time,
53:18
this was like pretty vulgar, but it was pretty funny. We wrote the the subject was Here's the only tip that you need to know for how to be productive today at work. And you open it up, and it was just that picture of Johnny Cash where he flicks off the camera, and it just says, close this browser and get back to work. And that and, like, that was that was that was it. That was the email. We sent that to a hundred and twenty thousand people. We didn't even, like, we didn't even We didn't even send an email. And then maybe one final thing,
53:45
this woman Lindsey worked for me, and she sent the Tuesday's email on Wednesday, which is like a mistake. She's like, shit. She's freaking out. And I was like, here. Do this.
53:55
I wrote in Slack. I was like, hey.
53:58
You know, I heard you sent the wrong email, and she replied in Yeah. My bad is really messed up. I go,
54:03
but we gotta talk. But until then, just, like, fix it. And she replied with, like, well, what should I do? I was like, don't know, man. Just put the new email in and send it again. Just take a screenshot of this and, like, put them. No understand. I'm sure. And he goes, and she replied with something like funny. And that was screenshot that just went at the top of the email. There was no explaining.
54:20
Right. And so when we do, like, little things like that all the time,
54:24
what about you, Michael? Yeah. Any companies that you look at that
54:28
kind of fall in this category?
54:30
It's super fun.
54:32
Well, I did I did find one to talk about the
54:35
have you guys done pop sockets?
54:37
Before? You talked to that? We haven't talked about it now. Yeah. It's a crazy story. So,
54:42
it's the it's the little, like, you take the the back of the case of your phone and you put the little ring on it? Well, that's patented.
54:48
And they're called PopSockets.
54:50
And they're very litigious. So that this is started in twenty fourteen. And they sold thirty thousand of these things. So they're, you know, ten or twelve bucks, whatever.
54:59
But then they got really popular. And people, the Chinese started trying to knock them off and sell them on Amazon and all this stuff.
55:05
And so is a a UC Boulder professor?
55:07
And by twenty seventeen, they sold thirty five million of them. In twenty eighteen, they sold sixty million of these things. So all because they have a patent on this little way that you know, teenage young girls in Orange County wanna grip their phone. Like, they're just printing money. So supposedly in twenty eighteen, they had two hundred million in revenue and ninety million in profit, all because of a patent.
55:28
It's one of the great one of the one of the greatest
55:33
Yes. I know this is true because I got it off of Wikipedia
55:37
when I researched this a few months ago.
55:40
Yeah. That's That's amazing. Gotta be several hundred million at least. I mean, you gotta keep growing. Every every lady I know has one of those things. You fit your nails in there? It's great. Sam, you wanna know a little realization I had today? When Michael was coming on, I was like, alright, what do I know about Michael? I was like, he does that, like, chili's little shtick where he's always like, you know,
55:58
know, the only thing I don't even I don't know how I would explain it. But, basically, it was just, like, find an excuse to name drop Chili's and say, how great Chili's is. And, like, why it's the best place for a meeting? And, like, you're just, like, you know, Oh, my god. You know, so happy for, you know, mother's day. I love my mother, but not as much as I love Chilies. Right? Like, you just come up with some way to, like, integrate Chilies in. And, Sam, I don't know if you've seen this, but I I actually me and Ben talked about this once. We go when we were, like, trying to build up, my brand. It was like, alright. I got this podcast of brand new. I got a Twitter. It was like, you know, a few thousand followers at the time. And I was like, what should we do to, like, build a brand? So I we did this one, like, you know, two hour exercise. We just looked at people who had good brands. We were like, What are what are people what's some common things that they do? And one of the things we found was that a lot of people have early on in the tech industry, like, or, like, sorry, like, early on early on the tech industry. That's, like, in the seventies or some shit. But, like, early on when I got into tech, I was following some people on Twitter and,
56:51
And I saw this guy, Ryan Hoover, and he seemed interested. He was blogging. He started this thing called product hunt, but Ryan would always
56:57
it was always Phil's Coffee and LaCroy.
57:00
Like, he would always talk about Philscopy and Lacroy. And in fact, like, LaCro kinda became like a startup meme. I really give, right, a lot of credit for it because he was always effort talking about LaCroy. And then when product hunt got popular, it just, like, accelerated the, like, the LaCroy meme in the community
57:15
as, like, know what's, like, low key? Great. Lacroy. And, like,
57:19
and so he had LaCro. And then, I don't know. So, Pomp Pomp does this thing with Domino's all the time where he's, like, He'll do, like, a Domino's pizza. He always says that, like, Domino's is the best, I think. And,
57:30
and he's just, like, and it's kind of this thing where you get this serious business persona in one way. But then you show this, like, human side. And it's, like, oh, I'm just, like, I love this thing. You know, I don't know if yours would be, like, topo Chico or something like that. Like, you used to, like, kinda pick those out. Michael's got Chili's. We gotta make ours Cheesecake Factory.
57:47
Yeah. Like, I was like Chick fil a Cheesecake Factory. We need something that's like our shtick.
57:53
That's like, it can't just be false. Like, you gotta genuinely have that love for it. The only part that's the shtick is that you talk about it, and you don't really talk about It's like your serious, serious, serious,
58:03
topo chico. Because it's, like, you know, this makes the cut. It's that important to me. It's that good. It is, I'm that big of a fan.
58:12
You're like, Michael, you had a great time. You know, let let me know when you're when you're in Austin. We'll go out sometime for some cheesecake factory and, maybe get the chicken pakata. We'll have a great time. Yes. That sounds good. Is that a menu, like, page fourteen of the menu, or fifty seven? It's a skinnylicious menu.
58:28
So I think I think when you pick this thing, the thing I would recommend, it's gotta be something that's well, okay. So here's the story for you. So I'm twenty five years old. And I'm finally figuring out how to talk to women in my life. Like, it's like I had not figured it out at this point. And so my buddy and I decided to
58:46
start going to parties and we would dress up in suits. And this is, like, when everybody's, like, dressed in, like, grunge, like, in San Francisco. Like, so it didn't work. So we show up dressed in these fancy suits. And it was just odd enough that the women would be like, why are you guys doing this? Like, it's just it's just slightly odd. Right? And so I think you need to figure talking.
59:05
What's it called? Be cocking? Yeah. Okay. I
59:10
I could have been one of those, like, with the pickup artists guys. Who who needs to do this holdco stuff? I could be a pickup artist. I I have I could not do that. Anyway,
59:19
I don't I don't like hair gel enough. But anyway, the,
59:22
I think you gotta figure out something that's just a little bit odd. You're like, why does this, like, technology entrepreneur in San Antonio like Chile so much? So if the Cheesecake Factory is that, I think you're good. But whatever it is, it's gotta be just a little, like, that they're like, why are they why Why are they wearing suits to this party? Like, what's going on? It can't be cool. Yeah. That that's the first thing. It can't be cool because if you're just trying to say some fad that, like, everybody thinks is cool. Now now you're just hopping on a bandwagon. You have to say something that's actually not so cool. Like, for me, like, the genuine one would be cinnabon.
59:53
Like, I fucking love Cinnabon.
59:54
Nobody even thinks about Cinnabon. So the that's the the corner for Cinnabon is open. I could take that corner You know, that's a that's a piece on the it's a piece of land on the on the board that that nobody's touching right now. I could just pick that up for cheap. And but the people who but people do know it, it's kinda nostalgic.
01:00:10
And it gives people something to, like, something that they can gift you. Some place they can offer to take you. Some place that every time they go there or see one, they will think of you. Like, every time I by Chili's,
01:00:20
goddamn, and I think Michael Gerdley. Right? And it's, like, same thing with the LaCroy and Ryan Hoover. It's, like, they own that mental real estate in my mind, And so, Sam, we could do that with Cheesecake Factory. We could just
01:00:32
every time someone sees it, they see us.
01:00:35
You definitely should do that. That's a great idea.
01:00:37
Alright. Thanks for coming on, man. Wait. Wait. Late. He's got problems for himself. What's his handle? At gridley on Twitter.
01:00:44
Sick. Well, thank you. Thank you for coming on. That was awesome.
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