00:06

Alright. So Moises here. And so I guess what people don't know, so you started,

Alright. So Moises here. And so I guess what people don't know, so you started,

00:12

it started a couple of businesses. People mostly know you from native. So you created native, which has popular deodorant brand. You sold it to Procter and Gamble for reported hundred million dollars, which I think is

it started a couple of businesses. People mostly know you from native. So you created native, which has popular deodorant brand. You sold it to Procter and Gamble for reported hundred million dollars, which I think is

00:24

One of the better DDC exits, because you only raised, like, four million dollars, I wanna say, less than that even. We raised five hundred thousand dollars, actually.

One of the better DDC exits, because you only raised, like, four million dollars, I wanna say, less than that even. We raised five hundred thousand dollars, actually.

00:32

Oh my god. Okay. So you raised five hundred thousand dollars. And by the way, I don't know if you know this. I remember I was in a a mastermind group with your brother. And I was, like and he was, like, in between he had he already sold his company. So he's kind of a floating in between things. It's like, why don't you show up to the mastermind? If you don't really have a business that you're working on, I think he was kinda, like, fishing. And he was, like, you know, my brother's got this interesting business. And I was, like, I was, like, oh, I didn't, you know, I didn't know him very well at the time. I was, like, then, you know, you had a brother. He's, I was ready for this, like, big tech idea.

Oh my god. Okay. So you raised five hundred thousand dollars. And by the way, I don't know if you know this. I remember I was in a a mastermind group with your brother. And I was, like and he was, like, in between he had he already sold his company. So he's kind of a floating in between things. It's like, why don't you show up to the mastermind? If you don't really have a business that you're working on, I think he was kinda, like, fishing. And he was, like, you know, my brother's got this interesting business. And I was, like, I was, like, oh, I didn't, you know, I didn't know him very well at the time. I was, like, then, you know, you had a brother. He's, I was ready for this, like, big tech idea.

01:00

And he's like, yeah. He's like selling, like, this, natural deodorant

And he's like, yeah. He's like selling, like, this, natural deodorant

01:04

And he made it sound like you're, like, sitting at home packing the deodorant, like, containers by hand. And he's, like, he kind of was underplaying it. He's, like, it's really cool. You know, paraben free. I didn't know what a paraben was. And he's like, it's aluminum free or whatever.

And he made it sound like you're, like, sitting at home packing the deodorant, like, containers by hand. And he's, like, he kind of was underplaying it. He's, like, it's really cool. You know, paraben free. I didn't know what a paraben was. And he's like, it's aluminum free or whatever.

01:17

And he's like, yeah. It's doing pretty well. And then he started to say the numbers. And I was like, whoa.

And he's like, yeah. It's doing pretty well. And then he started to say the numbers. And I was like, whoa.

01:22

That's actually, like, really good. And I was, like, so how much has he raised? He's, like, I don't know if he's he's raised, like, nothing. And so that's when you got on my radar, the and you've I feel like you operated very quietly. You're kinda like me where when you're doing something that's working, you shut the hell up. And when when you're

That's actually, like, really good. And I was, like, so how much has he raised? He's, like, I don't know if he's he's raised, like, nothing. And so that's when you got on my radar, the and you've I feel like you operated very quietly. You're kinda like me where when you're doing something that's working, you shut the hell up. And when when you're

01:38

when you're just thinking about ideas, you're, like, super loud to bounce them around off people. Is that your strategy? That's exactly right. In fact, we've done no PR for NATO.

when you're just thinking about ideas, you're, like, super loud to bounce them around off people. Is that your strategy? That's exactly right. In fact, we've done no PR for NATO.

01:47

Until,

Until,

01:48

after we sold the business. I remember when all these news publications reaching out to us, and I took one interview with, I think it was, like, retail dive or

after we sold the business. I remember when all these news publications reaching out to us, and I took one interview with, I think it was, like, retail dive or

01:56

somebody they're like, we wanna talk about this deodorant company because we haven't heard of that. And, you know, they're like, who are you guys? What are you doing?

somebody they're like, we wanna talk about this deodorant company because we haven't heard of that. And, you know, they're like, who are you guys? What are you doing?

02:03

And we sort of, talked about the business and they wrote an article and after that, I was like, I'm never talking about the business again. When we went to go fund rate, like, we talked to a few people. We talked to,

And we sort of, talked about the business and they wrote an article and after that, I was like, I'm never talking about the business again. When we went to go fund rate, like, we talked to a few people. We talked to,

02:14

Simon Equity Partners, which is basically,

Simon Equity Partners, which is basically,

02:16

the family office of, like, you know, the Simon Property Group, which owns a bunch of vols across the United States.

the family office of, like, you know, the Simon Property Group, which owns a bunch of vols across the United States.

02:22

And, we opened up our books to them and we're like, here's our business. And they're like, our job is to find businesses like you. And, you know, you're down the street from us. You're based in San Francisco. Your headquarters is three blocks away from ours. We've never heard of this business, and we should have heard of it right now. How come? And we're like, you know, we're not talking about our business. Like, no one walked around with native t shirts until after we made an until after we've made an exit. And then I was like, okay, now the brand can exist and be we can be loud and public about it.

And, we opened up our books to them and we're like, here's our business. And they're like, our job is to find businesses like you. And, you know, you're down the street from us. You're based in San Francisco. Your headquarters is three blocks away from ours. We've never heard of this business, and we should have heard of it right now. How come? And we're like, you know, we're not talking about our business. Like, no one walked around with native t shirts until after we made an until after we've made an exit. And then I was like, okay, now the brand can exist and be we can be loud and public about it.

02:49

Is that what is that? Is that paranoia?

Is that what is that? Is that paranoia?

02:51

Is it just focus? Is it strategy? What what why why do it that way? Yeah. I think it's two things I think one is,

Is it just focus? Is it strategy? What what why why do it that way? Yeah. I think it's two things I think one is,

02:59

fear, which is like,

fear, which is like,

03:01

fear of embarrassment. Okay. My business failed

fear of embarrassment. Okay. My business failed

03:04

And I was super public about it, and now it crashed, and everybody's gonna think of me as a failure. So I was like, we're not gonna fail publicly if we fail, it'll be really quietly.

And I was super public about it, and now it crashed, and everybody's gonna think of me as a failure. So I was like, we're not gonna fail publicly if we fail, it'll be really quietly.

03:14

And then two was like We failed the we failed the Indian ways. Exactly in personal shame. Yeah. That's right. That's right. No one will be able to Google me and be like, okay, boys always failure.

And then two was like We failed the we failed the Indian ways. Exactly in personal shame. Yeah. That's right. That's right. No one will be able to Google me and be like, okay, boys always failure.

03:24

And then the other one was things were working so well. We're like, okay. We don't know how this is working so well or why this is working so well. But we better not go around thumping our chest saying this is working really well because, one, I believe it'll jinx us, and I believe in jinx, And two, other people just start copying us and doing exactly what we're doing. And, like, you know, I still are I still native in November twenty seventeen. We have a competitor sell their business in December of twenty seventeen a month, a month after at us. And, you know, the in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen,

And then the other one was things were working so well. We're like, okay. We don't know how this is working so well or why this is working so well. But we better not go around thumping our chest saying this is working really well because, one, I believe it'll jinx us, and I believe in jinx, And two, other people just start copying us and doing exactly what we're doing. And, like, you know, I still are I still native in November twenty seventeen. We have a competitor sell their business in December of twenty seventeen a month, a month after at us. And, you know, the in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen,

03:56

sixty competitors in the natural deodorant space popped up.

sixty competitors in the natural deodorant space popped up.

04:00

At every brand that didn't have a natural deodorant, it was like, we should create a natural deodorant.

At every brand that didn't have a natural deodorant, it was like, we should create a natural deodorant.

04:04

And then sixty brands were like, hey, we wanna create natural deodorant as a flagship for our hero product.

And then sixty brands were like, hey, we wanna create natural deodorant as a flagship for our hero product.

04:09

And so by, like, not something or chest and not talking about our business, we were able to keep the category a little bit quieter before we came out and said, hey, this is a massive category and it's really working.

And so by, like, not something or chest and not talking about our business, we were able to keep the category a little bit quieter before we came out and said, hey, this is a massive category and it's really working.

04:20

Right. And I I I

Right. And I I I

04:22

appreciate that about you guys. I've actually learned a little bit in that regard in that. I don't I don't try my e commerce business on forever.

appreciate that about you guys. I've actually learned a little bit in that regard in that. I don't I don't try my e commerce business on forever.

04:29

Or I'll reference it, but I'll never say the name or the brand or whatever.

Or I'll reference it, but I'll never say the name or the brand or whatever.

04:32

Yeah.

Yeah.

04:33

Someone will say.

Someone will say.

04:35

Yeah. I also have a business partner.

Yeah. I also have a business partner.

04:38

Yeah. I have a business partner, and they don't want me to talk about it. So I'm also like, Cool. Yeah. You know, I'll honor that wish. But I I kind of came up with this term because you and your brother are the same in that, normally, you guys are all the info flows one way. And, this podcast is like the rare exception where I get to ask you questions. Normally,

Yeah. I have a business partner, and they don't want me to talk about it. So I'm also like, Cool. Yeah. You know, I'll honor that wish. But I I kind of came up with this term because you and your brother are the same in that, normally, you guys are all the info flows one way. And, this podcast is like the rare exception where I get to ask you questions. Normally,

04:56

I've never seen your brother or you in any social setting. It's a technique I call ollie boarding. And it's like drawing boarding.

I've never seen your brother or you in any social setting. It's a technique I call ollie boarding. And it's like drawing boarding.

05:03

But just with questions, were you just dump someone's head into a vat of your non stop flow of questions?

But just with questions, were you just dump someone's head into a vat of your non stop flow of questions?

05:10

And by the end, they're like, wait. So what's your name? And what do you do? And you're like, by then, you're like, I have your P and L. And, like, I have your whole family's backstory.

And by the end, they're like, wait. So what's your name? And what do you do? And you're like, by then, you're like, I have your P and L. And, like, I have your whole family's backstory.

05:19

And it's not like in a evil way. It's like genuine curiosity, I think. Sure. Yeah. Is what I've come to see, but it's also very effective.

And it's not like in a evil way. It's like genuine curiosity, I think. Sure. Yeah. Is what I've come to see, but it's also very effective.

05:26

A Is that true? Do you do you believe that? Do you am I am I characterizing it right? And then b, is that, like, conscious or un did you ever, like, develop that as a skill, or was that a choice you made or it's just natural?

A Is that true? Do you do you believe that? Do you am I am I characterizing it right? And then b, is that, like, conscious or un did you ever, like, develop that as a skill, or was that a choice you made or it's just natural?

05:38

Yeah. I think, a is it's partially right it's more true with Solomon with my brother than it is with me. And he does that to me as well, where, like, I'll tell him about, you know, a meeting I had or a deal that I'm looking at. And you'll be you'll ask me ridiculous questions. He'll be like, what, what did the lunch what did the founder have for lunch on Saturday, three months ago? And I'm like, I didn't get into that level of detail. You gotta stop asking those types of questions.

Yeah. I think, a is it's partially right it's more true with Solomon with my brother than it is with me. And he does that to me as well, where, like, I'll tell him about, you know, a meeting I had or a deal that I'm looking at. And you'll be you'll ask me ridiculous questions. He'll be like, what, what did the lunch what did the founder have for lunch on Saturday, three months ago? And I'm like, I didn't get into that level of detail. You gotta stop asking those types of questions.

06:03

But I do think we have genuine curiosity of, like, what are what's making other businesses work and what isn't? I remember we went to the Super Bowl,

But I do think we have genuine curiosity of, like, what are what's making other businesses work and what isn't? I remember we went to the Super Bowl,

06:10

you know, four years ago or something like that in Atlanta. And we were at the Super Bowl party, like, the night before the game, And there were these two old Daisy uncles that were there as well.

you know, four years ago or something like that in Atlanta. And we were at the Super Bowl party, like, the night before the game, And there were these two old Daisy uncles that were there as well.

06:20

And, they were there because they had they owned Marriott Hotels then Marriott had invited them to the game in, like, their private suite. And, you know, they were probably in their fifties. And we asked them so many as, like, you know, how much do you have to pay Marriott? And they also own a Hilton hotel. So I was like, how much do you have to pay Hilton per year? Marriott,

And, they were there because they had they owned Marriott Hotels then Marriott had invited them to the game in, like, their private suite. And, you know, they were probably in their fifties. And we asked them so many as, like, you know, how much do you have to pay Marriott? And they also own a Hilton hotel. So I was like, how much do you have to pay Hilton per year? Marriott,

06:38

do you have debt on the building? You do? What's your debt? Like, you know, often do you have to renovate? How much does renovations cost?

do you have debt on the building? You do? What's your debt? Like, you know, often do you have to renovate? How much does renovations cost?

06:44

How much, like, you know, what does your average occupancy look like? And they answered all these questions And they were, like, it didn't seem excited to answer them, but they didn't seem cautious. Like, they didn't seem like they were hesitant either. And at the end of all of these questions where we literally did have their P and L, you know, we're like, okay. Well, you know, they didn't ask a single question. They were just like, okay. Well, great meeting you guys. And we're like, alright. I now understand the hotel business. From two operators that have eight businesses around the Dallas Fort Worth area, and they didn't wanna know anything about us. Like, why were we at the Super Bowl party? How did we get here? How did we make our money? Didn't ask a single question. So I think there is a genuine curiosity that we have that sometimes is lost on other people.

How much, like, you know, what does your average occupancy look like? And they answered all these questions And they were, like, it didn't seem excited to answer them, but they didn't seem cautious. Like, they didn't seem like they were hesitant either. And at the end of all of these questions where we literally did have their P and L, you know, we're like, okay. Well, you know, they didn't ask a single question. They were just like, okay. Well, great meeting you guys. And we're like, alright. I now understand the hotel business. From two operators that have eight businesses around the Dallas Fort Worth area, and they didn't wanna know anything about us. Like, why were we at the Super Bowl party? How did we get here? How did we make our money? Didn't ask a single question. So I think there is a genuine curiosity that we have that sometimes is lost on other people.

07:23

That that's that's exactly how it goes. I've seen it. And then also you had, like, a brunch. You I saw you tweet out, like, oh, inviting some D to C friends over. Like, must have a brunch of DDC people. And I was like, oh, what a nice guy. Just be social or whatever. I had a friend who went to your brunch, and he's like, yeah, the brunch just basically moist sits at the tip of the table, and he's like, Alright. What's your CAC? What's your and you're like asking a bunch of questions. And I was like, that sounds about right. And I learned this from your brother. I was like, because I watched him one time. And I was like,

That that's that's exactly how it goes. I've seen it. And then also you had, like, a brunch. You I saw you tweet out, like, oh, inviting some D to C friends over. Like, must have a brunch of DDC people. And I was like, oh, what a nice guy. Just be social or whatever. I had a friend who went to your brunch, and he's like, yeah, the brunch just basically moist sits at the tip of the table, and he's like, Alright. What's your CAC? What's your and you're like asking a bunch of questions. And I was like, that sounds about right. And I learned this from your brother. I was like, because I watched him one time. And I was like,

07:50

first, when I talk to your brother now, I'm like, it's like a duel. Like, he doesn't know this. But in my head, I'm like, I'm gonna ask whatever n number of questions you ask, n plus one will be asked back to you. I love it. Yeah. Like, you know, because I will not be out questioned because I know the ticket, but I started I started watching him when he talked to other people and I was, like, How does he get them to divulge so much information? And again, not in a bad way, but just like, what gets people in the flow of talking? I'm like, okay. So first He's genuinely curious that he's super engaged. He's not looking around. He's not looking at his phone. He's actually looking them in the eye. He's asking a bunch of questions. I have noticed he does two things. When they're saying something he,

first, when I talk to your brother now, I'm like, it's like a duel. Like, he doesn't know this. But in my head, I'm like, I'm gonna ask whatever n number of questions you ask, n plus one will be asked back to you. I love it. Yeah. Like, you know, because I will not be out questioned because I know the ticket, but I started I started watching him when he talked to other people and I was, like, How does he get them to divulge so much information? And again, not in a bad way, but just like, what gets people in the flow of talking? I'm like, okay. So first He's genuinely curious that he's super engaged. He's not looking around. He's not looking at his phone. He's actually looking them in the eye. He's asking a bunch of questions. I have noticed he does two things. When they're saying something he,

08:25

likes or is, like, a smart thing, he gives them tons of, like, you know, nodding. Yep. That makes total sense. Got it. Love it. And then when they say something really stupid or weird or the helmet makes no sense, I noticed that when somebody does that to me, I'm like, but that makes I, like, kinda start judging them a little bit and they can tell that I'm judging them, and that makes them clam up. Whereas, he'll just go, he'll just laugh and be like,

likes or is, like, a smart thing, he gives them tons of, like, you know, nodding. Yep. That makes total sense. Got it. Love it. And then when they say something really stupid or weird or the helmet makes no sense, I noticed that when somebody does that to me, I'm like, but that makes I, like, kinda start judging them a little bit and they can tell that I'm judging them, and that makes them clam up. Whereas, he'll just go, he'll just laugh and be like,

08:47

Amazing. And then he he says the word amazing, and then moves on. And amazing really means like, wow. It's amazing. You're so stupid. Or it's amazing you think that? Or It's amazing that you don't even know that, but, like, he never makes them feel bad. He'll just be like, like, amazing, and then he'll just go on to the next question. And I realized that that is how he keeps the constant flow going. So I'm studying this ollie boarding technique, and I think I'm gonna be pretty good at it. I'm gonna be, like, you know, franchisee of your of your I love that. Yeah. First, we have to charge you per question then.

Amazing. And then he he says the word amazing, and then moves on. And amazing really means like, wow. It's amazing. You're so stupid. Or it's amazing you think that? Or It's amazing that you don't even know that, but, like, he never makes them feel bad. He'll just be like, like, amazing, and then he'll just go on to the next question. And I realized that that is how he keeps the constant flow going. So I'm studying this ollie boarding technique, and I think I'm gonna be pretty good at it. I'm gonna be, like, you know, franchisee of your of your I love that. Yeah. First, we have to charge you per question then.

09:15

But really he's like, I think the other thing that he does really good or do really well is that he's like, How do you think about something? You'd ever ask, like, you know, what's your hack? You'll be like, how do you think about growth when it comes to social ads? And, like, you know, can you spend more there? And the question is really open ended, but he's, like, aiming for some he, it really wants a response. And people,

But really he's like, I think the other thing that he does really good or do really well is that he's like, How do you think about something? You'd ever ask, like, you know, what's your hack? You'll be like, how do you think about growth when it comes to social ads? And, like, you know, can you spend more there? And the question is really open ended, but he's, like, aiming for some he, it really wants a response. And people,

09:34

like, you know, subconsciously get to it. And I've started asking how do you think about that all the time now? Because it really gets people to open up and tell me about how they're, how they view their business and not just, like, a standard number. And I really like that question. And I've also franchised that for men.

like, you know, subconsciously get to it. And I've started asking how do you think about that all the time now? Because it really gets people to open up and tell me about how they're, how they view their business and not just, like, a standard number. And I really like that question. And I've also franchised that for men.

09:51

When I started my business, the ecomm one that he's I told him about it and he had, like, you know, some good questions. And then, like, you know, the way y'all's brains work, it just, like, you know, nonstop. So I think at, like, two in the morning that same night, he just sent or, like actually, it was, like, five nights later. It was, like, completely unrelated.

When I started my business, the ecomm one that he's I told him about it and he had, like, you know, some good questions. And then, like, you know, the way y'all's brains work, it just, like, you know, nonstop. So I think at, like, two in the morning that same night, he just sent or, like actually, it was, like, five nights later. It was, like, completely unrelated.

10:08

It's a five days later, two in the morning. I get this email. It's one line from him, and he just says

It's a five days later, two in the morning. I get this email. It's one line from him, and he just says

10:13

he says, like, with our business, I knew we just it was we just need to do this one thing and it would work. Like, he explained, like, the competitive,

he says, like, with our business, I knew we just it was we just need to do this one thing and it would work. Like, he explained, like, the competitive,

10:20

like, the the positioning, like, what we were gonna do different that was gonna cause it to work. It was gonna be x, but with y difference.

like, the the positioning, like, what we were gonna do different that was gonna cause it to work. It was gonna be x, but with y difference.

10:26

What's that gonna be for your business? And then I was like, that sent me into, like, a three week spiral of being, like, Oh my god. I need to know this answer. That is the important question as I'm starting this business. I really do need to have, like, a very strong point of view

What's that gonna be for your business? And then I was like, that sent me into, like, a three week spiral of being, like, Oh my god. I need to know this answer. That is the important question as I'm starting this business. I really do need to have, like, a very strong point of view

10:39

on what's gonna be the one thing that we're gonna do that's gonna make this business work better than all the others that are out there or better than, you know, how can we compete given that we're years late to the party and whatever else. But it was such an important question. And I was like, man,

on what's gonna be the one thing that we're gonna do that's gonna make this business work better than all the others that are out there or better than, you know, how can we compete given that we're years late to the party and whatever else. But it was such an important question. And I was like, man,

10:54

and, like, ended up bringing him on as kind of like an advisor. I was like, man, this is the value of an advisor. It's not the answer, but the question. The question that's gonna make you, like, think about your business in a way or, like, reveal a shortcoming in your own thinking that you then get to go fill in that gap for yourself.

and, like, ended up bringing him on as kind of like an advisor. I was like, man, this is the value of an advisor. It's not the answer, but the question. The question that's gonna make you, like, think about your business in a way or, like, reveal a shortcoming in your own thinking that you then get to go fill in that gap for yourself.

11:10

Yeah. I think there's a lot of truth to that. The one thing I would say is that, like,

Yeah. I think there's a lot of truth to that. The one thing I would say is that, like,

11:14

you know, I've started an e commerce business that if someone asked me that about native, what launched the business, I'd say, I've got no idea. We're aluminum free. There are a bunch of aluminum free deodorants right now. We're selling online. Is that better? Is that better than selling in store? I've got no clue. And so I think those questions are really helpful, but I think the fear that some of those questions can cause in terms of people being like I need to figure out this answer before I can do x or y before I can launch my product before I can start spending marketing dollars. Like, you can figure out that answer

you know, I've started an e commerce business that if someone asked me that about native, what launched the business, I'd say, I've got no idea. We're aluminum free. There are a bunch of aluminum free deodorants right now. We're selling online. Is that better? Is that better than selling in store? I've got no clue. And so I think those questions are really helpful, but I think the fear that some of those questions can cause in terms of people being like I need to figure out this answer before I can do x or y before I can launch my product before I can start spending marketing dollars. Like, you can figure out that answer

11:44

well after your business is launched. And I think for Native, that really changed. Like, you know, we were an aluminum free deodorant selling it on the internet. And I was like, that's gonna be our competitive advantage. And then it became a little bit of, like, sense, you know, like fragrances.

well after your business is launched. And I think for Native, that really changed. Like, you know, we were an aluminum free deodorant selling it on the internet. And I was like, that's gonna be our competitive advantage. And then it became a little bit of, like, sense, you know, like fragrances.

11:57

We had a strategy of launching new fragrances

We had a strategy of launching new fragrances

12:00

frequently and those fragrances are different, and people are gonna pantry load and buy a bunch of deodorants. So it's not just buying one until you run out, but I've got seven. Because this is gonna be your fragrance rather than your perfume perfume or cologne. And then it was like different marketing ideas and bundling products and launching new categories.

frequently and those fragrances are different, and people are gonna pantry load and buy a bunch of deodorants. So it's not just buying one until you run out, but I've got seven. Because this is gonna be your fragrance rather than your perfume perfume or cologne. And then it was like different marketing ideas and bundling products and launching new categories.

12:17

Like, there are very few brands that it can expand from deodorant to body wash to, toothpaste. Like, you know, old spice could never make a toothpaste. We're like gonna create a brand that can do all of those, and it stands for better for you ingredients rather than one single thing. And I said, I think that question the answer to that question evolved and changed, and I think that question is great. People should think about that in the back of their minds, but it shouldn't prevent them from actually taking the first step to launching their business.

Like, there are very few brands that it can expand from deodorant to body wash to, toothpaste. Like, you know, old spice could never make a toothpaste. We're like gonna create a brand that can do all of those, and it stands for better for you ingredients rather than one single thing. And I said, I think that question the answer to that question evolved and changed, and I think that question is great. People should think about that in the back of their minds, but it shouldn't prevent them from actually taking the first step to launching their business.

12:42

Totally. Totally agree. Also, about the, like, progressive,

Totally. Totally agree. Also, about the, like, progressive,

12:46

like, iteration of that question of the of the answer. But also,

like, iteration of that question of the of the answer. But also,

12:50

I also learned what a good answer to that is. A good answer is not

I also learned what a good answer to that is. A good answer is not

12:53

we're doing this magical thing that nobody's doing because

we're doing this magical thing that nobody's doing because

12:56

usually that just doesn't exist, like, realistically. Like, that's probably a signal that it's a bad idea, not that it's a great idea.

usually that just doesn't exist, like, realistically. Like, that's probably a signal that it's a bad idea, not that it's a great idea.

13:03

And also not that, like, we are gonna jump through these fourteen really hard to jump through hoops. Like, I'm gonna crack I'm gonna be viral all the time. It's like, oh, god. Like, that seems like a bad strategy to back. Instead, it was, like, actually, there's a category that people want.

And also not that, like, we are gonna jump through these fourteen really hard to jump through hoops. Like, I'm gonna crack I'm gonna be viral all the time. It's like, oh, god. Like, that seems like a bad strategy to back. Instead, it was, like, actually, there's a category that people want.

13:18

And what we're gonna do is, like, people don't don't like this one thing about the main competitor. We're gonna do that one thing. Like, it's just common sense, but we're gonna do that one thing differently. And, like, I'm just gonna obsess over Facebook ads in a way that they're not, like, or just in a way that will work. Like, Facebook ads are just working for businesses like these. So I'm gonna do Facebook ads. It's like, almost the stupider, the answer, the better. But, like, the clearer the answer, the better too. Like, do you even know what you're betting on? That's, like, what do you think is gonna work here? And, like, Can you back that up as to why you think that's gonna work? But you don't want it to be a genius magical, like, magical silver bullet solution that, like,

And what we're gonna do is, like, people don't don't like this one thing about the main competitor. We're gonna do that one thing. Like, it's just common sense, but we're gonna do that one thing differently. And, like, I'm just gonna obsess over Facebook ads in a way that they're not, like, or just in a way that will work. Like, Facebook ads are just working for businesses like these. So I'm gonna do Facebook ads. It's like, almost the stupider, the answer, the better. But, like, the clearer the answer, the better too. Like, do you even know what you're betting on? That's, like, what do you think is gonna work here? And, like, Can you back that up as to why you think that's gonna work? But you don't want it to be a genius magical, like, magical silver bullet solution that, like,

13:54

Nobody has ever thought of, and nobody has ever pulled off because that's usually just a sign of, like, weakness actually in the plan. Especially if you talk about, like, partnerships or collaborations where people are, like, I'm betting my future on the ability to get other people to do x, y, and z. Like, that's never gonna work. I couldn't agree more. Could be we're look. We're gonna create a digital first brand that looks better. We're gonna have a better user interface, and we're gonna have more, better colors, and it's gonna look better on your countertop like native deodorant or your bathroom, you know, shelf like like, native deodorant, and that was it. Like, that was the that's that's an entire plan. And that's perfectly fine.

Nobody has ever thought of, and nobody has ever pulled off because that's usually just a sign of, like, weakness actually in the plan. Especially if you talk about, like, partnerships or collaborations where people are, like, I'm betting my future on the ability to get other people to do x, y, and z. Like, that's never gonna work. I couldn't agree more. Could be we're look. We're gonna create a digital first brand that looks better. We're gonna have a better user interface, and we're gonna have more, better colors, and it's gonna look better on your countertop like native deodorant or your bathroom, you know, shelf like like, native deodorant, and that was it. Like, that was the that's that's an entire plan. And that's perfectly fine.

14:28

And the one thing I really

And the one thing I really

14:30

Yeah. Go ahead. No. God.

Yeah. Go ahead. No. God.

14:32

Okay. So so the idea is, an example of doing that. So, you know, that the so most people who listen to this probably not not not brown or Daisy's. They'll they'll know this brand. But, like, if you've ever been to, like, an Indian grocer, which there's, you know, all around There's a bunch of things. Like, you know, you go buy, go buy, you know, the sort of, like, the ethnic foods. There's this brand called Aldi Ram, which is basically they make, like, just like this, like,

Okay. So so the idea is, an example of doing that. So, you know, that the so most people who listen to this probably not not not brown or Daisy's. They'll they'll know this brand. But, like, if you've ever been to, like, an Indian grocer, which there's, you know, all around There's a bunch of things. Like, you know, you go buy, go buy, you know, the sort of, like, the ethnic foods. There's this brand called Aldi Ram, which is basically they make, like, just like this, like,

14:55

super addictive salty little snack. It's like fried. It's like a equivalent of chips. It's like fried, salty, kind of spicy, just buy this thing. It's like an it's like a trail mix, basically. That's that's salty.

super addictive salty little snack. It's like fried. It's like a equivalent of chips. It's like fried, salty, kind of spicy, just buy this thing. It's like an it's like a trail mix, basically. That's that's salty.

15:06

And,

And,

15:08

and so it's been around forever. They do, like, five hundred million a year in sales. They're, like, juggernaut of a of a of a consumer packaged good brand. They're, like, super profitable. Don't do any, like, advertising, and, like, they're just, like,

and so it's been around forever. They do, like, five hundred million a year in sales. They're, like, juggernaut of a of a of a consumer packaged good brand. They're, like, super profitable. Don't do any, like, advertising, and, like, they're just, like,

15:19

they're massive.

they're massive.

15:20

And so, like, I think one idea is, like, holdy rom, but with, like, packaging that's just different, like, different packaging,

And so, like, I think one idea is, like, holdy rom, but with, like, packaging that's just different, like, different packaging,

15:27

slightly better for you. Like, Maybe it's baked and not fried. And, like, that's the whole business plan. Like, I don't need to know more to start than just that. And I think that that's a plan somebody could take today. And go start, like, okay. So then what are you gonna do for this? Like, I don't know, or the same as everybody else? Like, the you can do I don't know or the same as everybody else all other questions, as long as you just have that one thing, which is, like, these guys do, like, five hundred million in sales, and they sell mostly through these, like, Indian grocers,

slightly better for you. Like, Maybe it's baked and not fried. And, like, that's the whole business plan. Like, I don't need to know more to start than just that. And I think that that's a plan somebody could take today. And go start, like, okay. So then what are you gonna do for this? Like, I don't know, or the same as everybody else? Like, the you can do I don't know or the same as everybody else all other questions, as long as you just have that one thing, which is, like, these guys do, like, five hundred million in sales, and they sell mostly through these, like, Indian grocers,

15:54

I'm gonna do that, but with better packaging, because their packaging looks like my mom's packaging, I'm just gonna make it look like my packaging. Like, you know, the stuff I'm used to buying. Yeah. And I can cater to caucasians as a result of that. Like, you know, just packaging the the entire world is good to understand. It's not available only as ethic roadsters, there is. That's our business model is lacking their product in a better bag. Yeah. And where, like, two thirds of Indians have diabetes, and I'm just gonna make mine, better for people with diabetes. And obviously, like, it's baked, not fried, and, like, it's better for you because of that.

I'm gonna do that, but with better packaging, because their packaging looks like my mom's packaging, I'm just gonna make it look like my packaging. Like, you know, the stuff I'm used to buying. Yeah. And I can cater to caucasians as a result of that. Like, you know, just packaging the the entire world is good to understand. It's not available only as ethic roadsters, there is. That's our business model is lacking their product in a better bag. Yeah. And where, like, two thirds of Indians have diabetes, and I'm just gonna make mine, better for people with diabetes. And obviously, like, it's baked, not fried, and, like, it's better for you because of that.

16:23

Yeah. You know, the guys who started Nature NatureBox is this company based with Cisco that's, like, sold you, snacks, like trail mix, basically, and shifting either to your home or your office. Their original business model was, we're gonna go buy this at Whole Foods put it in different size packaging and just ship it to your house. Like, you know, what's the difference between this and Whole Foods trail mix? Literally not no packaging difference, no, ingredient difference. They literally go and buy it and, you know, ship it to your hats. And that was it. And instacart, like, started, and they're like, what are we gonna do? You have a grocery list. You just email it to us and we're gonna go shopping for it. Like, really simple ideas.

Yeah. You know, the guys who started Nature NatureBox is this company based with Cisco that's, like, sold you, snacks, like trail mix, basically, and shifting either to your home or your office. Their original business model was, we're gonna go buy this at Whole Foods put it in different size packaging and just ship it to your house. Like, you know, what's the difference between this and Whole Foods trail mix? Literally not no packaging difference, no, ingredient difference. They literally go and buy it and, you know, ship it to your hats. And that was it. And instacart, like, started, and they're like, what are we gonna do? You have a grocery list. You just email it to us and we're gonna go shopping for it. Like, really simple ideas.

17:00

They were not, like, you know, groundbreaking by any stretch of imagination

They were not, like, you know, groundbreaking by any stretch of imagination

17:04

that builds huge businesses.

that builds huge businesses.

17:06

And you invested in manscaped pretty early on, I think. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Invested in Manscaped probably three or four years ago now.

And you invested in manscaped pretty early on, I think. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Invested in Manscaped probably three or four years ago now.

17:14

And so,

And so,

17:16

you invested in Manscaped, and it's been one of your think you tweeted out some of one of your best performing investments.

you invested in Manscaped, and it's been one of your think you tweeted out some of one of your best performing investments.

17:22

What did they do? Like, what's their version of this? Like, the stupid simple plan that, like, just makes sense, and it doesn't have to be rocket science, but, like, a simple plan executed well. What was their version of that? Yeah. I think, two things. I think one was there, like, Look, we've created a product specifically for your balls. Even though the razor that works on your face works on your, like, you know, if you got an electric trimmer for your face, Works on your balls as well. It's not like it's different hair, possibly more coarse, but, like, that trimmer is gonna work there. And so they're like, look, we've created electric trimmer. Specifically for your balls. And and, like, you know, that that might appeal to people who don't have electric trimmers for their face. Like, I imagine you do. It's hard to keep these beards, trimmed well. Look, you know, if you've got it for your face, you can probably use the same thing for your balls if you're comfortable with that. They're like, hey, you're using a Gillette razor blade because you're clean shape in. We've got something specific for your ball. So I think that was really smart. They're like, hey, use this product for a category that you probably aren't using it for.

What did they do? Like, what's their version of this? Like, the stupid simple plan that, like, just makes sense, and it doesn't have to be rocket science, but, like, a simple plan executed well. What was their version of that? Yeah. I think, two things. I think one was there, like, Look, we've created a product specifically for your balls. Even though the razor that works on your face works on your, like, you know, if you got an electric trimmer for your face, Works on your balls as well. It's not like it's different hair, possibly more coarse, but, like, that trimmer is gonna work there. And so they're like, look, we've created electric trimmer. Specifically for your balls. And and, like, you know, that that might appeal to people who don't have electric trimmers for their face. Like, I imagine you do. It's hard to keep these beards, trimmed well. Look, you know, if you've got it for your face, you can probably use the same thing for your balls if you're comfortable with that. They're like, hey, you're using a Gillette razor blade because you're clean shape in. We've got something specific for your ball. So I think that was really smart. They're like, hey, use this product for a category that you probably aren't using it for.

18:17

And then two was like branding and name. They're like, you know, they got the name right. They got the trademark right. I think those were probably really hard for them to get, although I'm not, like, involved enough to know that.

And then two was like branding and name. They're like, you know, they got the name right. They got the trademark right. I think those were probably really hard for them to get, although I'm not, like, involved enough to know that.

18:27

And, unlike, you know, they've done a good job with, like, unique and differentiated branding. Look, they had,

And, unlike, you know, they've done a good job with, like, unique and differentiated branding. Look, they had,

18:33

they had a barge sale up and down,

they had a barge sale up and down,

18:36

south beach in Miami, and they had a big billboard on it, and it said, dot bush,

south beach in Miami, and they had a big billboard on it, and it said, dot bush,

18:42

use manscaped.

use manscaped.

18:44

Like, they've done really unique things in order to get their name out there in a way that I think a lot of other direct to consumer businesses have failed where we're, like, you know, native would run billboards and we're, like, years aluminum free deodorant, please come by it. It really didn't get your attention. These guys have done a good job of that.

Like, they've done really unique things in order to get their name out there in a way that I think a lot of other direct to consumer businesses have failed where we're, like, you know, native would run billboards and we're, like, years aluminum free deodorant, please come by it. It really didn't get your attention. These guys have done a good job of that.

18:59

And, like, you know, today, they posted on, the update I have a billboard in New York City right now. Instead of the heart emoji, it's an upside down heart emoji. So it looks like a, you know, a testicle sack, basically.

And, like, you know, today, they posted on, the update I have a billboard in New York City right now. Instead of the heart emoji, it's an upside down heart emoji. So it looks like a, you know, a testicle sack, basically.

19:08

That's really clever branding and, like, really clever thinking. And so They're fantastic at that. And I think what's really difficult is that stuff doesn't scale. It's not like if the guy who's, like, you know, there's two guys thinking about this kind of stuff and they retire you're not gonna be able to hire or teach that skill to somebody else. You've gotta find two rock stars that are able to pull that off otherwise, and I think that's gonna be difficult for them. But so far, they're just knocking it out park.

That's really clever branding and, like, really clever thinking. And so They're fantastic at that. And I think what's really difficult is that stuff doesn't scale. It's not like if the guy who's, like, you know, there's two guys thinking about this kind of stuff and they retire you're not gonna be able to hire or teach that skill to somebody else. You've gotta find two rock stars that are able to pull that off otherwise, and I think that's gonna be difficult for them. But so far, they're just knocking it out park.

19:33

And you see a ton of brands, a ton of DDC brands. You're probably, like, you know, one of somebody has a DDC company, you're probably one of the most, I don't know, desired, like, investor advisor

And you see a ton of brands, a ton of DDC brands. You're probably, like, you know, one of somebody has a DDC company, you're probably one of the most, I don't know, desired, like, investor advisor

19:43

type dudes. Yeah. Like, that's your authority. Right? People people wanna do what you've done, and then you've also invested in so many that now you have that portfolio and experience as well. But you also see a bunch of DDC brands do stupid shit. So what are some of the, like, kind of like, give me your rant on

type dudes. Yeah. Like, that's your authority. Right? People people wanna do what you've done, and then you've also invested in so many that now you have that portfolio and experience as well. But you also see a bunch of DDC brands do stupid shit. So what are some of the, like, kind of like, give me your rant on

19:58

the things you see DDC brands doing

the things you see DDC brands doing

20:01

wrong. What are some of the common mistakes you see that drive you nuts? Because I know that, like, both you and your brother, it's like operational, like,

wrong. What are some of the common mistakes you see that drive you nuts? Because I know that, like, both you and your brother, it's like operational, like,

20:09

you know, operational excellence is what turns you on and operational, like, you know, ignorance or whatever, you know,

you know, operational excellence is what turns you on and operational, like, you know, ignorance or whatever, you know,

20:16

is what, like, you know, drives you nuts. And so give me some of the things you see DDC brands doing wrong or or stupidly.

is what, like, you know, drives you nuts. And so give me some of the things you see DDC brands doing wrong or or stupidly.

20:23

Yeah. Over hiring and, like,

Yeah. Over hiring and, like,

20:25

spending money on dumb things. Like, you know,

spending money on dumb things. Like, you know,

20:28

native was doing, probably we were at a fifty million run rate or close to a fifty million dollar run rate.

native was doing, probably we were at a fifty million run rate or close to a fifty million dollar run rate.

20:35

When we sold the business,

When we sold the business,

20:37

and we had eight people at the time. And when I left, you know, it was certainly doing north of hundred million a year. And, you know, we probably had thirty or the thirty or so people on, on the team. Like, there were not that many people for a brand that was doing a lot of revenue. You know, I've walked into offices where people have twenty p you know, there'll be twenty people doing two million dollars or four million dollars in revenue. I'm a What are all of these human beings doing? Like, if they're you've gotta have this many people here, send them to the subway and handing out free, like, coupon cards to people who are getting off the subway. This is too many people inside your office to be working out a four million dollar a year brand. And so I think that's a that's a real, like, you're burning way too much if you have that many people.

and we had eight people at the time. And when I left, you know, it was certainly doing north of hundred million a year. And, you know, we probably had thirty or the thirty or so people on, on the team. Like, there were not that many people for a brand that was doing a lot of revenue. You know, I've walked into offices where people have twenty p you know, there'll be twenty people doing two million dollars or four million dollars in revenue. I'm a What are all of these human beings doing? Like, if they're you've gotta have this many people here, send them to the subway and handing out free, like, coupon cards to people who are getting off the subway. This is too many people inside your office to be working out a four million dollar a year brand. And so I think that's a that's a real, like, you're burning way too much if you have that many people.

21:17

You know, Goldman Sachs had the standard of, like, we wanna do one million in revenue per employee that we have. That should be something that's rather easy to do

You know, Goldman Sachs had the standard of, like, we wanna do one million in revenue per employee that we have. That should be something that's rather easy to do

21:25

for,

for,

21:26

for direct to consumer businesses. I sit on the board of a company called Broomate, which makes, like,

for direct to consumer businesses. I sit on the board of a company called Broomate, which makes, like,

21:31

like, you know, drinkware,

like, you know, drinkware,

21:33

think like, you know,

think like, you know,

21:35

like hydration kits or or can coolers for slim cans,

like hydration kits or or can coolers for slim cans,

21:40

They had one employee and they were doing thirty million dollars a year. Like, only the founder, Dylan, was at the company and he was doing thirty million dollars a year. We get some outsourced agencies that he was working with to help him run to help him run Facebook ads and to help him do customer service stuff. But, like, he had one guy and one guy in the payroll. So he could easily flex offer up and down with those agencies depending on how the business was going. So I think hiring,

They had one employee and they were doing thirty million dollars a year. Like, only the founder, Dylan, was at the company and he was doing thirty million dollars a year. We get some outsourced agencies that he was working with to help him run to help him run Facebook ads and to help him do customer service stuff. But, like, he had one guy and one guy in the payroll. So he could easily flex offer up and down with those agencies depending on how the business was going. So I think hiring,

22:02

over hiring is a real problem.

over hiring is a real problem.

22:04

The other thing I think is, like, another way to spend money poorly is like a beautiful office. I remember walking into some direct to consumer founders, businesses when I was running native, and I was Wow. This brand is super successful. Look at how nice this office is. They have a big they have a logo on their,

The other thing I think is, like, another way to spend money poorly is like a beautiful office. I remember walking into some direct to consumer founders, businesses when I was running native, and I was Wow. This brand is super successful. Look at how nice this office is. They have a big they have a logo on their,

22:20

you know, on the wall right when you walk in. After we sold our business,

you know, on the wall right when you walk in. After we sold our business,

22:24

the first time PNG came to our office because, you know, we've been doing it off-site, so as not to tell everyone you know, if if thirteen people from Procter and Gamble walk into our office with eight people, people are gonna be like, Hey, what's going on here? So we were kept meeting off-site. And finally, when they walked in, that, you know, there was a sticker on the door that said native. Like, it was a it was a sheet of paper. I had written out native by, with a Sharpie marker and taped it on the door. And that was our office. It was, like, you know, done with one penny.

the first time PNG came to our office because, you know, we've been doing it off-site, so as not to tell everyone you know, if if thirteen people from Procter and Gamble walk into our office with eight people, people are gonna be like, Hey, what's going on here? So we were kept meeting off-site. And finally, when they walked in, that, you know, there was a sticker on the door that said native. Like, it was a it was a sheet of paper. I had written out native by, with a Sharpie marker and taped it on the door. And that was our office. It was, like, you know, done with one penny.

22:52

And they were like, is this seriously your office? I was like, yeah, of course, this is our office. And they're like, This is the cheapest office I could possibly have imagined. And I was like, hey, we care about dollars.

And they were like, is this seriously your office? I was like, yeah, of course, this is our office. And they're like, This is the cheapest office I could possibly have imagined. And I was like, hey, we care about dollars.

23:01

And so, you know, I used to be afraid of being frugal, and I'd be like, wow, I'm so embarrassed. Down, like, it's a real batch of honor. We're running with fiscally con like, you know, we're fiscally conservative when it comes to this business, and we care about dollars. And they're my dollars. I don't wanna spend them well. So I think that's the second thing. And I think the third thing is really poor marketing. A lot of founder look, if I if I ask a founder, hey, what is your CAC last month and you don't know, that is a terrible sign. If you're doing a under forty million dollars a year in revenue and you don't know what your CAC was last month, that's crazy. If you don't know what your CAC was yesterday, that's okay, but, like, you should know what it prob you probably should know. And, like, you know, you, you know, if I ask you at ten AM and you don't know, that's okay. Ask you at two PM and you still don't roll with your package yesterday, that's a real problem. You're just not involved in the numbers enough. Like, this is how you grow these businesses. It's paid ads or, some sort some sort of advertising spend,

And so, you know, I used to be afraid of being frugal, and I'd be like, wow, I'm so embarrassed. Down, like, it's a real batch of honor. We're running with fiscally con like, you know, we're fiscally conservative when it comes to this business, and we care about dollars. And they're my dollars. I don't wanna spend them well. So I think that's the second thing. And I think the third thing is really poor marketing. A lot of founder look, if I if I ask a founder, hey, what is your CAC last month and you don't know, that is a terrible sign. If you're doing a under forty million dollars a year in revenue and you don't know what your CAC was last month, that's crazy. If you don't know what your CAC was yesterday, that's okay, but, like, you should know what it prob you probably should know. And, like, you know, you, you know, if I ask you at ten AM and you don't know, that's okay. Ask you at two PM and you still don't roll with your package yesterday, that's a real problem. You're just not involved in the numbers enough. Like, this is how you grow these businesses. It's paid ads or, some sort some sort of advertising spend,

23:51

versus a return on that investment. And if you're not familiar with those numbers,

versus a return on that investment. And if you're not familiar with those numbers,

23:55

your, you know, being grossly negligent with your business.

your, you know, being grossly negligent with your business.

24:01

And you you used to do a bunch of, like, kind of like hands on unscalable stuff like this. So I think, you know, I don't know, to this day, but, like, you I showed you what we do far this morning, we were talking. And I showed you what we do as far as, like, every day in Excel, we handwrite. Here's a lot of expense. I love it. Here's the. Yeah. Here's the new customers we got. Here's the blended roas. Here's the tech, here's how much from an email, and we write that every single day into this spreadsheet. And I'm sure there's like more automated ways to do it, but it's not perfect. And, like, the practice of doing it by hand makes you think about each of these numbers because you're like, why is this number always fifty two? And, like, I need to get this number to not be fifty two. I'm tired of writing effing fifty two on this spreadsheet. Sure. Like, I just if this business if this number was forty two, we will be making so much more money. Okay. That becomes my daily focus.

And you you used to do a bunch of, like, kind of like hands on unscalable stuff like this. So I think, you know, I don't know, to this day, but, like, you I showed you what we do far this morning, we were talking. And I showed you what we do as far as, like, every day in Excel, we handwrite. Here's a lot of expense. I love it. Here's the. Yeah. Here's the new customers we got. Here's the blended roas. Here's the tech, here's how much from an email, and we write that every single day into this spreadsheet. And I'm sure there's like more automated ways to do it, but it's not perfect. And, like, the practice of doing it by hand makes you think about each of these numbers because you're like, why is this number always fifty two? And, like, I need to get this number to not be fifty two. I'm tired of writing effing fifty two on this spreadsheet. Sure. Like, I just if this business if this number was forty two, we will be making so much more money. Okay. That becomes my daily focus.

24:47

What are so and I I've seen you tweet out about, like, people going and, like, like, go they go to Target. They, like, watch the aisles themselves to see how people are buying their brand or what they're not, you know, with what they're doing when they choose the brands. What are some of those unscalable things you've done yourself or what are your favorite kinda like? Give me some scrappy stories of, like,

What are so and I I've seen you tweet out about, like, people going and, like, like, go they go to Target. They, like, watch the aisles themselves to see how people are buying their brand or what they're not, you know, with what they're doing when they choose the brands. What are some of those unscalable things you've done yourself or what are your favorite kinda like? Give me some scrappy stories of, like,

25:03

stuff that that, like, you did as an operator or your favorite operators have done?

stuff that that, like, you did as an operator or your favorite operators have done?

25:08

Sure.

Sure.

25:09

You know, I used to email every single customer at Native. And I was like, hey, what,

You know, I used to email every single customer at Native. And I was like, hey, what,

25:15

you know, you bought our deodorant.

you know, you bought our deodorant.

25:17

Do you like it or do you not like it? If you like it, leave a review. And if you don't like it, email me back at tell me why you don't like this. And, you know, we were doing three hundred thousand two hundred fifty thousand dollars in revenue before we hired our first customer service, rep. Like, I was looking at every single one of those emails being like, what's working here and what is it? And that's how we got our product better. We've listened to consumer feedback. And, you know, we sent out Yeah. We were doing five hundred, six hundred orders a day, probably more than that. So we're getting a lot of customer service responses to that type of inquiry. But literally every single customer who ever purchased from us, I would wait, like, you know, five days until it was too late for you to return the product. Because if you emailed us and you're like, I hate this thing, I can I return it? I want to be like, no. New. We're past the return deadline. You can't do that any longer. So I literally had it scheduled for, like, you know, a date of you can return product for thirty days. I had it scheduled to go on day forty because that's, like, know, it's gonna take five days in shipping. And so day forty, we would email you and be like, tell us what you like and what you don't like. And, you know, we're gonna go and try and fix these things. We once had we, invited a bunch of consumers to a location and then started grilling them with questions. Hey, you, you know, they were consumers that have purchased from us a bunch they lived in San Francisco and were like, why do you like native deodorant? Why do you think it works better than other deodorants in the market? Because, and, you know, people would be like, It has probiotics. That's why it works better than than other deodorants. And I was like, what makes you look, it does have probiotics. But you have no idea whether that's effective or not, but I was like, No matter what we do with our formula, we have to keep some level of probiotic in there because people think probiotic means efficacy, whether it does or not. So those were the types of things that were really interesting and fun and, you know, non scalable. You know, I also, you you were talking about, Solomon was talking about my business and how I pack boxes. I did pack boxes. Pack boxes until we're probably doing that eighty thousand dollars in revenue a month. Like, you know, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, go home after working, put on star trek and start packing boxes.

Do you like it or do you not like it? If you like it, leave a review. And if you don't like it, email me back at tell me why you don't like this. And, you know, we were doing three hundred thousand two hundred fifty thousand dollars in revenue before we hired our first customer service, rep. Like, I was looking at every single one of those emails being like, what's working here and what is it? And that's how we got our product better. We've listened to consumer feedback. And, you know, we sent out Yeah. We were doing five hundred, six hundred orders a day, probably more than that. So we're getting a lot of customer service responses to that type of inquiry. But literally every single customer who ever purchased from us, I would wait, like, you know, five days until it was too late for you to return the product. Because if you emailed us and you're like, I hate this thing, I can I return it? I want to be like, no. New. We're past the return deadline. You can't do that any longer. So I literally had it scheduled for, like, you know, a date of you can return product for thirty days. I had it scheduled to go on day forty because that's, like, know, it's gonna take five days in shipping. And so day forty, we would email you and be like, tell us what you like and what you don't like. And, you know, we're gonna go and try and fix these things. We once had we, invited a bunch of consumers to a location and then started grilling them with questions. Hey, you, you know, they were consumers that have purchased from us a bunch they lived in San Francisco and were like, why do you like native deodorant? Why do you think it works better than other deodorants in the market? Because, and, you know, people would be like, It has probiotics. That's why it works better than than other deodorants. And I was like, what makes you look, it does have probiotics. But you have no idea whether that's effective or not, but I was like, No matter what we do with our formula, we have to keep some level of probiotic in there because people think probiotic means efficacy, whether it does or not. So those were the types of things that were really interesting and fun and, you know, non scalable. You know, I also, you you were talking about, Solomon was talking about my business and how I pack boxes. I did pack boxes. Pack boxes until we're probably doing that eighty thousand dollars in revenue a month. Like, you know, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, go home after working, put on star trek and start packing boxes.

27:13

And, you know, I was like, okay. I do I knew how much a weighed. I knew how much filler paper to put in there. I knew how much a box weighed when, like, you know, with deodorant, without deodorant.

And, you know, I was like, okay. I do I knew how much a weighed. I knew how much filler paper to put in there. I knew how much a box weighed when, like, you know, with deodorant, without deodorant.

27:23

I knew how to optimize this price. I I knew when we were creating in boxes. I was like, I want her boxed away one ounce and not one point three ounces because at one point three ounces, it tips us over this level and at one ounce it doesn't.

I knew how to optimize this price. I I knew when we were creating in boxes. I was like, I want her boxed away one ounce and not one point three ounces because at one point three ounces, it tips us over this level and at one ounce it doesn't.

27:34

I'd go to our contract manufacturer all the time and be like, hey, we're seeing these types of fuckups. What's going on here? And so I was, like, intimately familiar with the formula. I knew the steps to how or the a formula, what what temperature we ported out at. And, like, native was being hand poor. We were making twenty thousand units of native a deal during the day. And we were hand pouring each single bar. So there was a there were about a hundred people working in Austin, Texas, hand pouring deodorants.

I'd go to our contract manufacturer all the time and be like, hey, we're seeing these types of fuckups. What's going on here? And so I was, like, intimately familiar with the formula. I knew the steps to how or the a formula, what what temperature we ported out at. And, like, native was being hand poor. We were making twenty thousand units of native a deal during the day. And we were hand pouring each single bar. So there was a there were about a hundred people working in Austin, Texas, hand pouring deodorants.

27:59

And, you know, the best person could hand pour about a thousand deodorants a day. And a new person could hand pour about seventy five deodorants a day. And we had to train these people to go from seventy five to a couple hundred or five hundred. And that was really interesting as well. And so there was a and, I mean, that's not scalable. Certainly hand for and deodorants isn't scalable. But we went from five hundred units of deodorant a week to twenty one thousand a day, still hand poor it. So it was more scalable than I thought it was gonna be.

And, you know, the best person could hand pour about a thousand deodorants a day. And a new person could hand pour about seventy five deodorants a day. And we had to train these people to go from seventy five to a couple hundred or five hundred. And that was really interesting as well. And so there was a and, I mean, that's not scalable. Certainly hand for and deodorants isn't scalable. But we went from five hundred units of deodorant a week to twenty one thousand a day, still hand poor it. So it was more scalable than I thought it was gonna be.

28:26

Yeah.

Yeah.

28:27

And how much of that is you being a maniac versus, like, good strategy. Right? So, like, if somebody in my company was doing that, Why are you doing this? You need to hire somebody so you could do something higher leverage. But clearly, it kinda worked for you to be like a maniac and doing all the things yourself. So, like, you know, what's the line? What's the right way to think about that?

And how much of that is you being a maniac versus, like, good strategy. Right? So, like, if somebody in my company was doing that, Why are you doing this? You need to hire somebody so you could do something higher leverage. But clearly, it kinda worked for you to be like a maniac and doing all the things yourself. So, like, you know, what's the line? What's the right way to think about that?

28:45

Yeah. That's a great question. I think if you're a completely divorced from customer feedback,

Yeah. That's a great question. I think if you're a completely divorced from customer feedback,

28:49

you're setting yourself up for disaster unless you've created, you know, a flywheel that you know exactly how it works. Like, you know, when native was doing a hundred million dollars of of sales a year, I probably wasn't in customer service any longer, but when it was doing fifty million in sales a year, I was in co you know, I was probably the number one, if not the number two customer service agents. And so, like, you know, you need that feedback to understand what's working and what's not, where their problems in my business and where they're not. And so

you're setting yourself up for disaster unless you've created, you know, a flywheel that you know exactly how it works. Like, you know, when native was doing a hundred million dollars of of sales a year, I probably wasn't in customer service any longer, but when it was doing fifty million in sales a year, I was in co you know, I was probably the number one, if not the number two customer service agents. And so, like, you know, you need that feedback to understand what's working and what's not, where their problems in my business and where they're not. And so

29:15

look, I don't know what the rate line is, but divorcing yourself from customer feedback at under twenty five million dollars a year is bananas to me. You're not gonna know what people love about your product and what they don't love. And you're not gonna know, like, you know, we'd have operational issues that I wasn't aware of. We'd be, like, shipping is taking an extra three days when it go when it's going to California. Going on here. Like, is there a problem in California? Is there a problem with our shipping company? Sometimes we'd run out of things, and no one would know until a customer emailed us, being like, hey, I'm waiting four days. And we're like, we're out of this. We're out of coconut and vanilla. I don't believe. And then we check our inventory, and we're like, how do we run out? Like, we did such No, did we do a poor job in, inventory forecasting? We weren't even aware of that we ran out when we ran out. And so those were a couple of the ridiculous things that would happen. But, like, you know, because you're intimately involved, you're able to, like, you know, understand the business at a deeper level, And I think, like, really being engaged at, you know, what does my shipping look like? You know, how can I make shipping faster so I can reduce costs? Is the weight of the box or the weight of the filler or the size different? There was a company that I knew that, as friends with the CEO in San Francisco,

look, I don't know what the rate line is, but divorcing yourself from customer feedback at under twenty five million dollars a year is bananas to me. You're not gonna know what people love about your product and what they don't love. And you're not gonna know, like, you know, we'd have operational issues that I wasn't aware of. We'd be, like, shipping is taking an extra three days when it go when it's going to California. Going on here. Like, is there a problem in California? Is there a problem with our shipping company? Sometimes we'd run out of things, and no one would know until a customer emailed us, being like, hey, I'm waiting four days. And we're like, we're out of this. We're out of coconut and vanilla. I don't believe. And then we check our inventory, and we're like, how do we run out? Like, we did such No, did we do a poor job in, inventory forecasting? We weren't even aware of that we ran out when we ran out. And so those were a couple of the ridiculous things that would happen. But, like, you know, because you're intimately involved, you're able to, like, you know, understand the business at a deeper level, And I think, like, really being engaged at, you know, what does my shipping look like? You know, how can I make shipping faster so I can reduce costs? Is the weight of the box or the weight of the filler or the size different? There was a company that I knew that, as friends with the CEO in San Francisco,

30:21

His he was shipping through Amazon. And his box, that he was shipping in was about a half inch too large, and it went from being extra like, it went from being, like, an a large to a custom large box. And so his shipping rate went up, like, seventy dollars a box because of this half inch he had. And, like, you know, when people discovered it or when he discovered it, he's like, can't believe we've been shipping like this for so long. You know, if you're intimately involved, you're probably gonna catch those things a little bit earlier.

His he was shipping through Amazon. And his box, that he was shipping in was about a half inch too large, and it went from being extra like, it went from being, like, an a large to a custom large box. And so his shipping rate went up, like, seventy dollars a box because of this half inch he had. And, like, you know, when people discovered it or when he discovered it, he's like, can't believe we've been shipping like this for so long. You know, if you're intimately involved, you're probably gonna catch those things a little bit earlier.

30:47

Right.

Right.

30:48

And so you let let's zoom out. So you,

And so you let let's zoom out. So you,

30:51

you've seen DDC change. You,

you've seen DDC change. You,

30:54

you also have seen, you know, you also invest in the stock market. And so you've seen Shopify,

you also have seen, you know, you also invest in the stock market. And so you've seen Shopify,

30:59

Amazon, Facebook. Give me on each of those three stocks. Give me your lay of the land on, like,

Amazon, Facebook. Give me on each of those three stocks. Give me your lay of the land on, like,

31:04

what you think has happened and where you think that those are going? Are they trending? Are are they rightly priced? Are they underpriced? Are they overpriced you know, give me give me let's do Shopify first and then, we'll do Facebook and then Amazon.

what you think has happened and where you think that those are going? Are they trending? Are are they rightly priced? Are they underpriced? Are they overpriced you know, give me give me let's do Shopify first and then, we'll do Facebook and then Amazon.

31:17

Sure. Okay. And for context, I've lost millions of dollars in Shopify stock. In the last six months.

Sure. Okay. And for context, I've lost millions of dollars in Shopify stock. In the last six months.

31:24

And, you know, I wrote this Twitter thread about it as well. And I was like, Shopify keeps, their their, their motto is to arm the rebels. And I I said They keep giving us muskets in a war that's being fought with, like, nuclear weapons.

And, you know, I wrote this Twitter thread about it as well. And I was like, Shopify keeps, their their, their motto is to arm the rebels. And I I said They keep giving us muskets in a war that's being fought with, like, nuclear weapons.

31:36

And you when you put out tweets like this and you you basically say, hey, here's what I think you should do with your strategy or if I was here's what I'd be doing or, like, as somebody who's lost millions of dollars on your stock, here's some things that I think could help.

And you when you put out tweets like this and you you basically say, hey, here's what I think you should do with your strategy or if I was here's what I'd be doing or, like, as somebody who's lost millions of dollars on your stock, here's some things that I think could help.

31:47

Do you ever hear back is it crickets? Do you hear get other interesting inbound? What what happens after you put that out there? Cause I've done that a few times, and I've gotten very interesting

Do you ever hear back is it crickets? Do you hear get other interesting inbound? What what happens after you put that out there? Cause I've done that a few times, and I've gotten very interesting

31:56

situations occur from my my my tweets like that. What's happened for you? Definitely interesting situations.

situations occur from my my my tweets like that. What's happened for you? Definitely interesting situations.

32:02

Toby, who's the CEO of, Shopify Respond. And he's, like, these are great points, so did Harvey who's the president and definitely had some more interesting calls. And I'm not sure if that that Twitter thread, which was a couple months ago now, you know, inform them and help them create this Lookalike Audience system that they're creating in Shopify. But that's wonderful. I don't want any credit. Just go do it so that we can go get deeper

Toby, who's the CEO of, Shopify Respond. And he's, like, these are great points, so did Harvey who's the president and definitely had some more interesting calls. And I'm not sure if that that Twitter thread, which was a couple months ago now, you know, inform them and help them create this Lookalike Audience system that they're creating in Shopify. But that's wonderful. I don't want any credit. Just go do it so that we can go get deeper

32:23

you know, cost customers so that we can acquire customers at a cheaper rate and build better businesses. Like, you know, go build out these products and make the of the platform fantastic. You know, a bunch of people pay Clavio

you know, cost customers so that we can acquire customers at a cheaper rate and build better businesses. Like, you know, go build out these products and make the of the platform fantastic. You know, a bunch of people pay Clavio

32:33

more than they pay Shopify. A bunch of people pay recharge more than they pay Shopify. Like, these are Shopify apps that provide you with a small segment of, like, or a small thing compared to what Shopify

more than they pay Shopify. A bunch of people pay recharge more than they pay Shopify. Like, these are Shopify apps that provide you with a small segment of, like, or a small thing compared to what Shopify

32:45

enables you to do,

enables you to do,

32:46

you know, provide some of these services a cheaper call or build in some of these services to make the platform better. Like, you know, Triple Will is doing a fantastic job at analytics.

you know, provide some of these services a cheaper call or build in some of these services to make the platform better. Like, you know, Triple Will is doing a fantastic job at analytics.

32:55

Why doesn't Shopify build their own subscription platform instead of outsourcing it recharge, which everybody hates and which charges a fortune. Like, what's going on there? It's been you've been publicly traded for years. This this is arming us. This is arming the rebels.

Why doesn't Shopify build their own subscription platform instead of outsourcing it recharge, which everybody hates and which charges a fortune. Like, what's going on there? It's been you've been publicly traded for years. This this is arming us. This is arming the rebels.

33:10

And so let's let's shift away from D to C. Let's do other types of investing because you do real estate.

And so let's let's shift away from D to C. Let's do other types of investing because you do real estate.

33:16

You've tried to buy pieces of sports teams. You've tried a bunch of different things. So let's just start with the big picture. So give me a pie chart percentage wise of

You've tried to buy pieces of sports teams. You've tried a bunch of different things. So let's just start with the big picture. So give me a pie chart percentage wise of

33:26

What do you do with your money? So you you -- Yeah. -- you came to a bunch of money. You,

What do you do with your money? So you you -- Yeah. -- you came to a bunch of money. You,

33:31

what's in cash, what's in real estate, what's in stocks? What do what do you do in percentage wise, roughly for those? Great question.

what's in cash, what's in real estate, what's in stocks? What do what do you do in percentage wise, roughly for those? Great question.

33:37

Great question. And I think the answer is I should know the answer. I know my cat from you guys, like, we should know your cat. Yeah. And this is me not knowing my back, which is embarrassing.

Great question. And I think the answer is I should know the answer. I know my cat from you guys, like, we should know your cat. Yeah. And this is me not knowing my back, which is embarrassing.

33:47

The like,

The like,

33:48

probably around ten million in private equity.

probably around ten million in private equity.

33:52

Probably

Probably

33:53

around

around

33:54

forty million or fifty million in cash,

forty million or fifty million in cash,

33:57

which is a lot. And not, like, cash, cash where I'm, like, literally holding in cash, But, like, really short term bonds waiting for bond prices to go up. And so now I'm starting to leg into positions where I feel like interest rates are getting more more exciting. And so I'll put my money there.

which is a lot. And not, like, cash, cash where I'm, like, literally holding in cash, But, like, really short term bonds waiting for bond prices to go up. And so now I'm starting to leg into positions where I feel like interest rates are getting more more exciting. And so I'll put my money there.

34:12

So, you know, I've been investing in really short term bonds

So, you know, I've been investing in really short term bonds

34:15

that, you know, aren't really subject to much interest interest rate because they've got six month maturities

that, you know, aren't really subject to much interest interest rate because they've got six month maturities

34:21

and not five year, you know, bonds that are more subject to interest rate risk. And, you know, since interest rates have gone up over the last four months, I've started deploy more capital in that respect.

and not five year, you know, bonds that are more subject to interest rate risk. And, you know, since interest rates have gone up over the last four months, I've started deploy more capital in that respect.

34:31

But a lot of cash,

But a lot of cash,

34:34

probably

probably

34:35

twenty five million in real estate

twenty five million in real estate

34:37

thirty million in real estate that I, like, you know, that I are, you know, my family owns and we're operating ourselves.

thirty million in real estate that I, like, you know, that I are, you know, my family owns and we're operating ourselves.

34:44

And then probably another ten million in real estate l p somewhere,

And then probably another ten million in real estate l p somewhere,

34:48

here or there.

here or there.

34:50

I don't know how much money that is, but then there's, like, you know, I don't know. Then there's, like, random and probably another ten million in, start up investments.

I don't know how much money that is, but then there's, like, you know, I don't know. Then there's, like, random and probably another ten million in, start up investments.

35:00

So maybe more than ten million in terms of investments.

So maybe more than ten million in terms of investments.

35:03

Good question. Probably around ten million in the stock market. Maybe a little bit less now that Shopify and Facebook have gotten cremated.

Good question. Probably around ten million in the stock market. Maybe a little bit less now that Shopify and Facebook have gotten cremated.

35:11

So maybe less than that now. I'm not ex exactly sure what the amount is there. And why such a big cash position? Is that to be conservative? Is that just I'm so busy. I haven't figured out how I'm gonna deploy all this. Yeah. Or is it, like, intentional? Like, no. I want to have, let's say, fifty percent, forty, fifty percent cash and kind of bonds. It's more than it is proactive. Like, I'd love to be more invested. And part of it was actually, like, you know, proactive in terms of waiting for interest rates for, to go up again. You know, if you invested two years ago or three years ago, you barely gotten any return on your dollar. So I was like, we can sit on cash and not be subject to so much interest rate risk. Now I'm getting more excited about that. But a lot of it is, you know, when you get to a certain scale of wealth, you hire professionals who are like private wealth managers to help you deploy your capital. In a way that's really intelligent, a way that's unique.

So maybe less than that now. I'm not ex exactly sure what the amount is there. And why such a big cash position? Is that to be conservative? Is that just I'm so busy. I haven't figured out how I'm gonna deploy all this. Yeah. Or is it, like, intentional? Like, no. I want to have, let's say, fifty percent, forty, fifty percent cash and kind of bonds. It's more than it is proactive. Like, I'd love to be more invested. And part of it was actually, like, you know, proactive in terms of waiting for interest rates for, to go up again. You know, if you invested two years ago or three years ago, you barely gotten any return on your dollar. So I was like, we can sit on cash and not be subject to so much interest rate risk. Now I'm getting more excited about that. But a lot of it is, you know, when you get to a certain scale of wealth, you hire professionals who are like private wealth managers to help you deploy your capital. In a way that's really intelligent, a way that's unique.

35:58

And,

And,

35:59

you know, supposedly gives you a competitive edge because you have more capital to deploy, so you're able to hire smarter people to deploy that and, you know, earn a greater return.

you know, supposedly gives you a competitive edge because you have more capital to deploy, so you're able to hire smarter people to deploy that and, you know, earn a greater return.

36:08

That's the shtick that they sell you. I'm not sure that shtick is real at all. Like,

That's the shtick that they sell you. I'm not sure that shtick is real at all. Like,

36:13

private wealth managers have been

private wealth managers have been

36:16

really disappointing.

really disappointing.

36:17

Like, no one is doing anything unique in this industry. You know, If you ask two private wealth managers, what's the difference between you and this other person? They'll just shit on the other person, and you'll be like, what are you gonna get me, like, What are you gonna invest me in that this person isn't? Like, what's your competitive advantage? Do you have access to deals that this person doesn't have access to? They're like, no. We're both managing the same amount of money. We've been around the same amount of time. And they're like, you know, have you heard of Elliot? I'm like, yeah, I've heard of Elliot. It's a Wall Street Journal every fucking day. I'm pretty sure everyone could get me in there. Like, you know, their fund is twenty billion dollars. I'm sure anyone could get me in there. And they're like, yeah, anyone could get you in there. But we know them really well. And I'm like, okay. I don't know what that means.

Like, no one is doing anything unique in this industry. You know, If you ask two private wealth managers, what's the difference between you and this other person? They'll just shit on the other person, and you'll be like, what are you gonna get me, like, What are you gonna invest me in that this person isn't? Like, what's your competitive advantage? Do you have access to deals that this person doesn't have access to? They're like, no. We're both managing the same amount of money. We've been around the same amount of time. And they're like, you know, have you heard of Elliot? I'm like, yeah, I've heard of Elliot. It's a Wall Street Journal every fucking day. I'm pretty sure everyone could get me in there. Like, you know, their fund is twenty billion dollars. I'm sure anyone could get me in there. And they're like, yeah, anyone could get you in there. But we know them really well. And I'm like, okay. I don't know what that means.

36:55

And so, like, I guess where I've been disappointed and where I've been lost in this world,

And so, like, I guess where I've been disappointed and where I've been lost in this world,

37:00

is How do I deploy my capital in a really effective way? And, you know, every pro like, you know, if I tweet something about this, I tweet tweeted like, hey, if you've hundred thousand dollars. If you're earning three hundred thousand dollars a year, it's really hard to know what to do with your buddy. You're not rich enough for the private wealth manager, and you're too,

is How do I deploy my capital in a really effective way? And, you know, every pro like, you know, if I tweet something about this, I tweet tweeted like, hey, if you've hundred thousand dollars. If you're earning three hundred thousand dollars a year, it's really hard to know what to do with your buddy. You're not rich enough for the private wealth manager, and you're too,

37:15

rich for the Bank of America person who sits at the retail branch.

rich for the Bank of America person who sits at the retail branch.

37:19

And, you know, I got a bunch of,

And, you know, I got a bunch of,

37:21

people who are like, I do this for three hundred people were in about three hundred thousand dollars a year. I didn't bet any of them. But, like, they were aggressive and, like, you know, these private wealth managers, if you sell a business, just reach out to you and they're like, help us lend us manage your money. And you're like, what are you gonna put me in? And literally none of them say anything unique. None of them add their own things. They're just like, we're gonna invest you in this other guys.

people who are like, I do this for three hundred people were in about three hundred thousand dollars a year. I didn't bet any of them. But, like, they were aggressive and, like, you know, these private wealth managers, if you sell a business, just reach out to you and they're like, help us lend us manage your money. And you're like, what are you gonna put me in? And literally none of them say anything unique. None of them add their own things. They're just like, we're gonna invest you in this other guys.

37:41

Fund, and every private wealth manager can get you in there. For instance, with public equities, they all tell you, go invest with parametric. They do tac loss harvesting,

Fund, and every private wealth manager can get you in there. For instance, with public equities, they all tell you, go invest with parametric. They do tac loss harvesting,

37:49

you will get an extra point two five percent to point five percent return over the S and P five hundred if you invest with Perimetric as opposed to doing this, as opposed to just investing in a Vanguard ETF ETF But they all tell you to do that. Why would, like, you know, why use Goldman Sachs instead of First Republic instead of a smaller boutique fund if you're all just gonna invest with the this dollars with parametric. You're all the same at that point. It's like, you know, it's like buying an airline ticket from kayak or Expedia, but riding on American Airlines. And getting the exact same seat. Ultimately, you're getting the same product. And so I haven't been smart enough and spent enough time figuring this stuff out.

you will get an extra point two five percent to point five percent return over the S and P five hundred if you invest with Perimetric as opposed to doing this, as opposed to just investing in a Vanguard ETF ETF But they all tell you to do that. Why would, like, you know, why use Goldman Sachs instead of First Republic instead of a smaller boutique fund if you're all just gonna invest with the this dollars with parametric. You're all the same at that point. It's like, you know, it's like buying an airline ticket from kayak or Expedia, but riding on American Airlines. And getting the exact same seat. Ultimately, you're getting the same product. And so I haven't been smart enough and spent enough time figuring this stuff out.

38:24

Gotcha. And then what about, crypto? You don't do anything crypto. And is there, like, a strong opinion? Like, oh, it's all, you know, for Gazy or or or or you just haven't had time?

Gotcha. And then what about, crypto? You don't do anything crypto. And is there, like, a strong opinion? Like, oh, it's all, you know, for Gazy or or or or you just haven't had time?

38:35

Very little with crypto. I'm, like, an investor in a couple of fund of funds that have made a fortune in crypto. So these funds have returned,

Very little with crypto. I'm, like, an investor in a couple of fund of funds that have made a fortune in crypto. So these funds have returned,

38:43

significant amount. And it wasn't in their sort of, like, fun charter to go and invest in crypto, but they did it anyway. And they're like, look, we're up, you know, ten thousand percent So you can't complain. You know, they're like, look, we turned your dollar to ten thousand dollars. You can't be a you can't be an asshole LP and be like, What the fuck? You can't do this. They're like, here's ten thousand dollars shut the fuck up. So, you know, they can do it.

significant amount. And it wasn't in their sort of, like, fun charter to go and invest in crypto, but they did it anyway. And they're like, look, we're up, you know, ten thousand percent So you can't complain. You know, they're like, look, we turned your dollar to ten thousand dollars. You can't be a you can't be an asshole LP and be like, What the fuck? You can't do this. They're like, here's ten thousand dollars shut the fuck up. So, you know, they can do it.

39:05

Generally, I just don't understand the value yet, and,

Generally, I just don't understand the value yet, and,

39:09

I've been hesitant to Gary and Mary. I'm not I'm not opposed to it. You know, everyone says invest five percent of your net wealth in it. I wouldn't invest five percent of my net wealth in it. You know, it's hard because,

I've been hesitant to Gary and Mary. I'm not I'm not opposed to it. You know, everyone says invest five percent of your net wealth in it. I wouldn't invest five percent of my net wealth in it. You know, it's hard because,

39:20

the same parts of the world are like, boys. You're not investing in crypto. What the fuck are you doing? And Warren Buffett of the world are like, If you offer me all the crypto in the world for twenty dollars, I would not buy it. And so,

the same parts of the world are like, boys. You're not investing in crypto. What the fuck are you doing? And Warren Buffett of the world are like, If you offer me all the crypto in the world for twenty dollars, I would not buy it. And so,

39:30

I guess I've just been sitting on the sidelines. I don't know if it's good or bad, but if someone has a strong opinion, you can do state, please do so.

I guess I've just been sitting on the sidelines. I don't know if it's good or bad, but if someone has a strong opinion, you can do state, please do so.

39:38

Okay. I'm gonna resist the urge to do that now because people think I ran too many times on it. Alright. So

Okay. I'm gonna resist the urge to do that now because people think I ran too many times on it. Alright. So

39:44

I guess, let's let's do a little bit like,

I guess, let's let's do a little bit like,

39:47

let's do a little touch on a real little real estate then we'll do the personal stuff. So real estate. You've been deploying, but now it feels like the landscape has changed. I think you kinda have an opinion on what's changed.

let's do a little touch on a real little real estate then we'll do the personal stuff. So real estate. You've been deploying, but now it feels like the landscape has changed. I think you kinda have an opinion on what's changed.

39:57

Give me your current take on, like, what do you see and what are you doing? Yeah. So, I left a native in,

Give me your current take on, like, what do you see and what are you doing? Yeah. So, I left a native in,

40:03

February twenty twenty. And, right when COVID was gonna hit, like, I was, like, I'm gonna go to Europe And I'm gonna I'm gonna go to France. I'm gonna try and drink all of the wine they produced in twenty nineteen in February twenty twenty in France. And, then COVID hit instead I was stuck with my parents, like, you know, all day, and it was a very different experience than I suspected it was gonna be.

February twenty twenty. And, right when COVID was gonna hit, like, I was, like, I'm gonna go to Europe And I'm gonna I'm gonna go to France. I'm gonna try and drink all of the wine they produced in twenty nineteen in February twenty twenty in France. And, then COVID hit instead I was stuck with my parents, like, you know, all day, and it was a very different experience than I suspected it was gonna be.

40:25

And so I started buying real estate. And so from, like, January or from February twenty twenty to probably the end of twenty twenty one, I bought about fifty

And so I started buying real estate. And so from, like, January or from February twenty twenty to probably the end of twenty twenty one, I bought about fifty

40:34

Rousseau units,

Rousseau units,

40:36

generally single family homes, some duplexes, some four plexes,

generally single family homes, some duplexes, some four plexes,

40:40

two units in, you know, all and then aside from those fifty units, two units in, like, California

two units in, you know, all and then aside from those fifty units, two units in, like, California

40:47

where, they're, like, old apartment buildings, that are really small and were renovating, and then as an LP in a bunch of different funds.

where, they're, like, old apartment buildings, that are really small and were renovating, and then as an LP in a bunch of different funds.

40:54

You know, everyone who bought in twenty nineteen, you look like fucking genius. Like, people are like, wow, you're such a savvy real estate investor. It's like, I I started buying because I had nothing else to do. You know, if they were gonna return money gonna return five percent. They're returning twelve, fourteen percent now, and that's fantastic. But I'm not sure I was very savvy about it.

You know, everyone who bought in twenty nineteen, you look like fucking genius. Like, people are like, wow, you're such a savvy real estate investor. It's like, I I started buying because I had nothing else to do. You know, if they were gonna return money gonna return five percent. They're returning twelve, fourteen percent now, and that's fantastic. But I'm not sure I was very savvy about it.

41:12

I I haven't used leverage, which is really stupid of me. And, you know,

I I haven't used leverage, which is really stupid of me. And, you know,

41:16

it's really stupid today because if I borrowed, you know, a year ago, I would've gotten two and a half percent interest. I could've just invested on a ten year bond and made money I just haven't used leverage in part because I'm too lazy to try and get it, and in part because I'm like, you know, I've got enough capital to deploy already.

it's really stupid today because if I borrowed, you know, a year ago, I would've gotten two and a half percent interest. I could've just invested on a ten year bond and made money I just haven't used leverage in part because I'm too lazy to try and get it, and in part because I'm like, you know, I've got enough capital to deploy already.

41:31

And the returns have been fantastic. You know, I I bought homes and I was underwriting for six percent returns. There are twelve, fourteen percent returns. They're crazy. I bought a four plex for six hundred thousand dollars. I thought each unit would rent out for like eight hundred dollars. They're each renting out for about fourteen hundred dollars now. So it's I'm making a fortune.

And the returns have been fantastic. You know, I I bought homes and I was underwriting for six percent returns. There are twelve, fourteen percent returns. They're crazy. I bought a four plex for six hundred thousand dollars. I thought each unit would rent out for like eight hundred dollars. They're each renting out for about fourteen hundred dollars now. So it's I'm making a fortune.

41:49

People are are struggling with rents, and so state governments are often stepping in and providing rents to landlords. Like, you know, we get a call of being like, hey, John campaigns rent. We're gonna cover the rent for the next eighteen months. And, you know, they'll cut you a check for eighteen months of rent and late fees, which is bananas.

People are are struggling with rents, and so state governments are often stepping in and providing rents to landlords. Like, you know, we get a call of being like, hey, John campaigns rent. We're gonna cover the rent for the next eighteen months. And, you know, they'll cut you a check for eighteen months of rent and late fees, which is bananas.

42:07

And so it's been a fantastic investment, but, yeah, I am slowing down now.

And so it's been a fantastic investment, but, yeah, I am slowing down now.

42:11

And,

And,

42:12

do you think, you know, where where do you think this goes? Are you gonna you're slowing down, but is you are you slowing down because you're sort of, like, okay, allocated? How much I wanna be allocated? Or you're slowing down because you're like, wait. This no longer these prices no longer make

do you think, you know, where where do you think this goes? Are you gonna you're slowing down, but is you are you slowing down because you're sort of, like, okay, allocated? How much I wanna be allocated? Or you're slowing down because you're like, wait. This no longer these prices no longer make

42:24

sense? It's not even the prices don't make any sense any longer cause I've this this is the one asset cost where I've, like, I have a really long term view. You know, stocks. I look, I've been in shop if I never sold a share. Facebook, I've been in. I've never sold a share. I've had them both for five years if not longer.

sense? It's not even the prices don't make any sense any longer cause I've this this is the one asset cost where I've, like, I have a really long term view. You know, stocks. I look, I've been in shop if I never sold a share. Facebook, I've been in. I've never sold a share. I've had them both for five years if not longer.

42:40

Microsoft, I've been in for more than a decade. I remember buying it while I was in in my admin law class in law school, and I've still held every one of them shares. So look, you know, generally, I I'd, like, I I'm a pretty good long term investor. Real estate, I think of myself as like, you know, I will never sell any unit, in, in real estate, like my children will inherit this,

Microsoft, I've been in for more than a decade. I remember buying it while I was in in my admin law class in law school, and I've still held every one of them shares. So look, you know, generally, I I'd, like, I I'm a pretty good long term investor. Real estate, I think of myself as like, you know, I will never sell any unit, in, in real estate, like my children will inherit this,

43:01

or, you know, natural disaster will take these things into the ocean. I'm okay with either of those, but I will not sell one underwriting circumstance.

or, you know, natural disaster will take these things into the ocean. I'm okay with either of those, but I will not sell one underwriting circumstance.

43:08

So I'm not really worried about prices,

So I'm not really worried about prices,

43:11

you know, in in terms of cap rate long term, but I do think there'll be a small market correction. So I I guess I've slowed down my purchasing. I'm still, under contract to buy two or three units. In the next couple months. But I'm not, like, before I started by, you know, a unit a week or, you know, two units, a month. And now I'm sort of, like, let me buy a unit a month or less. To see what happens to the market as interest rates go up. I think these prices will come down a little bit. But I I like, you know, I a lot of my cash is in real estate, you know, twenty five, thirty million dollars

you know, in in terms of cap rate long term, but I do think there'll be a small market correction. So I I guess I've slowed down my purchasing. I'm still, under contract to buy two or three units. In the next couple months. But I'm not, like, before I started by, you know, a unit a week or, you know, two units, a month. And now I'm sort of, like, let me buy a unit a month or less. To see what happens to the market as interest rates go up. I think these prices will come down a little bit. But I I like, you know, I a lot of my cash is in real estate, you know, twenty five, thirty million dollars

43:41

I I'm not scared. Like, you know, if the market crashes, no nobody will be more excited than me. I will deploy all the cash I'm sitting on for this. I have no problem. If that thirty million dollars goes down to five, I will not get like, this is the one asset class where I will not get scared. I will double triple or quadruple down. Opposed to being like, oh my god. I gotta sell what I've got.

I I'm not scared. Like, you know, if the market crashes, no nobody will be more excited than me. I will deploy all the cash I'm sitting on for this. I have no problem. If that thirty million dollars goes down to five, I will not get like, this is the one asset class where I will not get scared. I will double triple or quadruple down. Opposed to being like, oh my god. I gotta sell what I've got.

43:59

And that's just because you're, like, this is a concrete assets. There's limited supply. There's always gonna be demand. Yeah. It's such a insane mentality. You know, it's like my parents mentality about the cash flows. It's immune to Facebook ad prices. It's immune to the stock market. It's, like, generally,

And that's just because you're, like, this is a concrete assets. There's limited supply. There's always gonna be demand. Yeah. It's such a insane mentality. You know, it's like my parents mentality about the cash flows. It's immune to Facebook ad prices. It's immune to the stock market. It's, like, generally,

44:17

like, it's real diversification for my e commerce and startup investments. Like, these things don't exist.

like, it's real diversification for my e commerce and startup investments. Like, these things don't exist.

44:22

They're general they're primarily in the south with the exception of a few in California and a few in Colorado.

They're general they're primarily in the south with the exception of a few in California and a few in Colorado.

44:27

They're places where people are moving to and not moving from.

They're places where people are moving to and not moving from.

44:31

And so I'm excited about them. And, yeah, so I would never I I have no desire to sell them, get emails and calls all the time, no excitement whatsoever to sell love holding this stuff. And, generally, it's a ton of cash. And, you know, the other way I think about it is, and this is also pretty dacing mentality. It's like Okay. I've got all these expenses per year and no job.

And so I'm excited about them. And, yeah, so I would never I I have no desire to sell them, get emails and calls all the time, no excitement whatsoever to sell love holding this stuff. And, generally, it's a ton of cash. And, you know, the other way I think about it is, and this is also pretty dacing mentality. It's like Okay. I've got all these expenses per year and no job.

44:51

I need something to make up for that, like, no, these expenses. Like, I don't wanna dip into capital. Don't believe it didn't look, you know, like, the balance never goes down. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. That's right. I'm terrified of the balance going down. And so I'm like, I need something to, afford my lifestyle,

I need something to make up for that, like, no, these expenses. Like, I don't wanna dip into capital. Don't believe it didn't look, you know, like, the balance never goes down. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. That's right. I'm terrified of the balance going down. And so I'm like, I need something to, afford my lifestyle,

45:07

and this real estate helps me afford my lifestyle.

and this real estate helps me afford my lifestyle.

45:13

I'm I don't know if I'm just too dumb or too lazy, but it's one of the two where I'm like,

I'm I don't know if I'm just too dumb or too lazy, but it's one of the two where I'm like,

45:20

I basically picked two lanes to think about

I basically picked two lanes to think about

45:23

And I was like, I don't really have the, like, mindshare

And I was like, I don't really have the, like, mindshare

45:26

to be able to think about, like, if I go into real estate today, I'm the dumbest guy in Okay. Well, it doesn't take a genius to do real estate. So that's okay. I think if I put my mind to it, I could do that, but that's now my mental cycles that are not going towards my business, or the stuff I'm more interested in where I think I can have a bigger edge where I think I can be more like the top one percent rather than like the sixty, you know, sixty percentile or whatever. Sure. And so that that's the first part is, like, do I want to try to learn this game from scratch

to be able to think about, like, if I go into real estate today, I'm the dumbest guy in Okay. Well, it doesn't take a genius to do real estate. So that's okay. I think if I put my mind to it, I could do that, but that's now my mental cycles that are not going towards my business, or the stuff I'm more interested in where I think I can have a bigger edge where I think I can be more like the top one percent rather than like the sixty, you know, sixty percentile or whatever. Sure. And so that that's the first part is, like, do I want to try to learn this game from scratch

45:53

if I'm gonna do anything direct, or even if I'm gonna invest in funds? I gotta have some ability to vet these funds to pick. Yeah. But, okay, they're they're all pretty safe. You can get your five, six percent. It seems like, you know, without the it's not totally variable like that.

if I'm gonna do anything direct, or even if I'm gonna invest in funds? I gotta have some ability to vet these funds to pick. Yeah. But, okay, they're they're all pretty safe. You can get your five, six percent. It seems like, you know, without the it's not totally variable like that.

46:07

The other thing is, like, in direct, I'm just, like, who's gonna have the time to manage all this? Like, I did one transaction buying my house that I was gonna buy. I was gonna live in in San Francisco. It just the process of the dealing with the bank to get the loan and then the closing, the escrow, and then the inspections, and

The other thing is, like, in direct, I'm just, like, who's gonna have the time to manage all this? Like, I did one transaction buying my house that I was gonna buy. I was gonna live in in San Francisco. It just the process of the dealing with the bank to get the loan and then the closing, the escrow, and then the inspections, and

46:24

it was like, I couldn't do anything else. I was, like, paralyzed from, like, actually doing stuff I liked because I was constantly having to nurse this project. And I I was like, I can't imagine buying fifty units in a year,

it was like, I couldn't do anything else. I was, like, paralyzed from, like, actually doing stuff I liked because I was constantly having to nurse this project. And I I was like, I can't imagine buying fifty units in a year,

46:35

or, you know, twenty units in a year. And, like, the amount of just transactional,

or, you know, twenty units in a year. And, like, the amount of just transactional,

46:39

like, logistics that I would have to go through. It's such a turnoff from, like, for what is the recession?

like, logistics that I would have to go through. It's such a turnoff from, like, for what is the recession?

46:44

Basically, the same average as the stock market in the long term. Okay. Like,

Basically, the same average as the stock market in the long term. Okay. Like,

46:48

I don't have to dev diversification is not that important to me to, like, do both of those things. Like, the mental cycles plus the physical energy it would take to do the transactions and then manage them and then, like, you know, my my tenant calls, you know, my property manager calls me about the tenant that's calling me about whatever. I don't actually even know what goes into it, but I know it's not nothing. And right now, I think my tolerance is nothing for, like, for, like, headache.

I don't have to dev diversification is not that important to me to, like, do both of those things. Like, the mental cycles plus the physical energy it would take to do the transactions and then manage them and then, like, you know, my my tenant calls, you know, my property manager calls me about the tenant that's calling me about whatever. I don't actually even know what goes into it, but I know it's not nothing. And right now, I think my tolerance is nothing for, like, for, like, headache.

47:11

Yeah. And this isn't like, you know, someone calls you on a Monday being, like, my AC is broken, and it's in San Antonio, Texas. You can't be like, okay, I'm gonna get back to you Thursday. Like, you know, it's a hundred and ten degrees outside. You need to get that fixed in the next twelve hours. You're right. There is a lot of pain there. When I was purchasing Manager, the I rent the current place that I live in, and I called and was like, hey, there's like a weird smell. He's like, okay. So, like, where's it coming from? I don't know. It's a smell. And I I can't see it. He's like, okay. Like, what kind of smells? Like, I don't know. It's just, like, bad. It's, like, smells really bad. He's just, like, Yeah. Give me some and I was like, and it's Sunday, and, like, you need to send someone here because I can't have a house with a bad smell, like, and I'm just like, I got kids. Know, that that's the card. And I'm like, you gotta send somebody now to figure out this mystery thing. And then the the guy comes over. He's like, where's the crawl space? I'm like, I don't know. It's not my house. I don't know. Go ask This guy in Arizona who owns this house, who's ninety years old, go ask him where the crawl space is of this property because it's his problem to, like, fix this for me, and I'm just gonna be a baby about it. And then I think about what it's like to be on the other side of that. And I'm like, is that worth the, like, five hundred dollar, like, net that he's making per month on my on my rent? It's, like, probably not. For me. That point out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right about that. And what was in the crawl space? Was look at I don't know. We never found it yet. The guy didn't get back to me in that pitch. Like,

Yeah. And this isn't like, you know, someone calls you on a Monday being, like, my AC is broken, and it's in San Antonio, Texas. You can't be like, okay, I'm gonna get back to you Thursday. Like, you know, it's a hundred and ten degrees outside. You need to get that fixed in the next twelve hours. You're right. There is a lot of pain there. When I was purchasing Manager, the I rent the current place that I live in, and I called and was like, hey, there's like a weird smell. He's like, okay. So, like, where's it coming from? I don't know. It's a smell. And I I can't see it. He's like, okay. Like, what kind of smells? Like, I don't know. It's just, like, bad. It's, like, smells really bad. He's just, like, Yeah. Give me some and I was like, and it's Sunday, and, like, you need to send someone here because I can't have a house with a bad smell, like, and I'm just like, I got kids. Know, that that's the card. And I'm like, you gotta send somebody now to figure out this mystery thing. And then the the guy comes over. He's like, where's the crawl space? I'm like, I don't know. It's not my house. I don't know. Go ask This guy in Arizona who owns this house, who's ninety years old, go ask him where the crawl space is of this property because it's his problem to, like, fix this for me, and I'm just gonna be a baby about it. And then I think about what it's like to be on the other side of that. And I'm like, is that worth the, like, five hundred dollar, like, net that he's making per month on my on my rent? It's, like, probably not. For me. That point out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right about that. And what was in the crawl space? Was look at I don't know. We never found it yet. The guy didn't get back to me in that pitch. Like,

48:27

We have no idea where where it is.

We have no idea where where it is.

48:30

The guy, like, sealed up one hole. So he's like, maybe this will help the smell go That was it. I was like, okay. Well, we still don't know what's causing the smell. You just bottled it up. Like, whatever's in the wall that's dead or whatever's going on here. Yeah. Sure. He's like, he's like, He he the guy came over and owned Google Translate. He typed out. He's like, if the smell's still here tomorrow, I'll come undo the whole wall thing I just did. And I'll go find what's in there. I was like, bro, can't you just do that now? Can we not go into the wall now? Why do we gotta do it? Keep without Google translate. That's hilarious.

The guy, like, sealed up one hole. So he's like, maybe this will help the smell go That was it. I was like, okay. Well, we still don't know what's causing the smell. You just bottled it up. Like, whatever's in the wall that's dead or whatever's going on here. Yeah. Sure. He's like, he's like, He he the guy came over and owned Google Translate. He typed out. He's like, if the smell's still here tomorrow, I'll come undo the whole wall thing I just did. And I'll go find what's in there. I was like, bro, can't you just do that now? Can we not go into the wall now? Why do we gotta do it? Keep without Google translate. That's hilarious.

49:00

Yeah. A bunch of a bunch of the real estate I bought is, like, an auction. And so,

Yeah. A bunch of a bunch of the real estate I bought is, like, an auction. And so,

49:05

when you walk, like, they're very there's no inspection

when you walk, like, they're very there's no inspection

49:08

There's no financing ability. Like, you know, you bid on auction, you you write, you know, you wire the money the next day, and then you open the house, and you're like, what did I just get into? And so,

There's no financing ability. Like, you know, you bid on auction, you you write, you know, you wire the money the next day, and then you open the house, and you're like, what did I just get into? And so,

49:19

sometimes he'll walk it. Like, there was one house I I had purchased and the guy passed away, not in the house, but, like, everything was still inside of his house. Forks and knives, spoons, his cards were in the garage, get it safe in there, went to empty out the entire house out before we could rent it out. And, you know, you have no, like, a line, like, that was a mediocre situation because, like, you know, everything was still in okay shape. He used to live there. There was another house I got that was in perfect shape. Like, couldn't, like, you know, you go into the house. I mean, like, try and look through the blinds to find out what the condition is gonna be inside. This one you couldn't see at all is the only house I've been to where I was, like, I couldn't see it all. And I opened up the lock when after I bought it and it's in perfect condition. There have been houses that I bought. I walk in and I'm like, fuck. I just you know, I'm gonna have to spend forty dollars that I didn't underwrite for, replacing the roof or changing the tile or putting in a new kitchen. And so it is a lot of, like, rolling the

sometimes he'll walk it. Like, there was one house I I had purchased and the guy passed away, not in the house, but, like, everything was still inside of his house. Forks and knives, spoons, his cards were in the garage, get it safe in there, went to empty out the entire house out before we could rent it out. And, you know, you have no, like, a line, like, that was a mediocre situation because, like, you know, everything was still in okay shape. He used to live there. There was another house I got that was in perfect shape. Like, couldn't, like, you know, you go into the house. I mean, like, try and look through the blinds to find out what the condition is gonna be inside. This one you couldn't see at all is the only house I've been to where I was, like, I couldn't see it all. And I opened up the lock when after I bought it and it's in perfect condition. There have been houses that I bought. I walk in and I'm like, fuck. I just you know, I'm gonna have to spend forty dollars that I didn't underwrite for, replacing the roof or changing the tile or putting in a new kitchen. And so it is a lot of, like, rolling the

50:11

dice

dice

50:12

at least in the in the with the way that I've purchased and sort of, using, you know, the law of large numbers to be like, this is gonna make sense at some point. And sometimes it does and sometimes you get screwed and, you know, you just eat the ones that got screwed. Like, there have been two that I've purchased

at least in the in the with the way that I've purchased and sort of, using, you know, the law of large numbers to be like, this is gonna make sense at some point. And sometimes it does and sometimes you get screwed and, you know, you just eat the ones that got screwed. Like, there have been two that I've purchased

50:27

in two years ago that are still not rented because I haven't done the work to go and fix the houses to make them habitable.

in two years ago that are still not rented because I haven't done the work to go and fix the houses to make them habitable.

50:33

And that's, you know, that's a lot of capital being that was deployed and nothing's happening with right now. That yeah. You need to just, like, get some YouTuber who does, like, he's trying to make content about, like, renovating home to, like, hey, you can use my home and, like, you get, you know, x percent, and you get to use all the content. This is your home, sir. Go ahead and make I would love it. Go ahead and flip this thing.

And that's, you know, that's a lot of capital being that was deployed and nothing's happening with right now. That yeah. You need to just, like, get some YouTuber who does, like, he's trying to make content about, like, renovating home to, like, hey, you can use my home and, like, you get, you know, x percent, and you get to use all the content. This is your home, sir. Go ahead and make I would love it. Go ahead and flip this thing.

50:52

Definitely. Yeah. That'd be great.

Definitely. Yeah. That'd be great.

50:54

You and your brother both do this, which is I think you treat business like a like a like business is your fun, like, your adventure. I I feel the same way. And I asked him because I he he gave me money, and he he was like, I'm an advisers your company, and I was like, cool. But, like,

You and your brother both do this, which is I think you treat business like a like a like business is your fun, like, your adventure. I I feel the same way. And I asked him because I he he gave me money, and he he was like, I'm an advisers your company, and I was like, cool. But, like,

51:09

just so you know, like, why are you doing this? Like, I want you to do this, but, like, as your friend, I'm like, why are you doing this? This is a waste of your time. Like, this is never gonna make enough money to move the needle Like, your

just so you know, like, why are you doing this? Like, I want you to do this, but, like, as your friend, I'm like, why are you doing this? This is a waste of your time. Like, this is never gonna make enough money to move the needle Like, your

51:18

share of this is never gonna make enough money to justify the time and energy. And, like, it's not gonna move the needle for you. So, like, really this makes no sense. Why are you doing this? And he goes

share of this is never gonna make enough money to justify the time and energy. And, like, it's not gonna move the needle for you. So, like, really this makes no sense. Why are you doing this? And he goes

51:28

he said something he goes,

he said something he goes,

51:31

he goes, like, I am not happy

he goes, like, I am not happy

51:33

unless I am, like,

unless I am, like,

51:35

entrapped in, you know, in a business. And he's, like, but as long as, like, the as long as I get to create the I wanna live in a prison of my own making and, like, as long as I get to choose, I'm good, but, like, I'm also not, like, I can't be content and fulfilled unless I'm, like, unless I'm locked into, like, a raging battle with, like, you know, some, like, business thing. And I was like, wow. That's crazy, but it also makes sense to me. And you're the same way when you're like, how do I do real estate on hard mode? Like, you could just l p a bunch of funds and you're like, no. I'm gonna go buy stuff. I'm not just gonna buy good stuff. I'm gonna buy stuff at auctions, and I'm gonna go have to take, like, a, you know, two by four and break off a lock and then, like, walk in and see what I got. And then, like, figure out how to turn this into, like, fourteen hundred dollars a month of rent. And you're like, yes.

entrapped in, you know, in a business. And he's, like, but as long as, like, the as long as I get to create the I wanna live in a prison of my own making and, like, as long as I get to choose, I'm good, but, like, I'm also not, like, I can't be content and fulfilled unless I'm, like, unless I'm locked into, like, a raging battle with, like, you know, some, like, business thing. And I was like, wow. That's crazy, but it also makes sense to me. And you're the same way when you're like, how do I do real estate on hard mode? Like, you could just l p a bunch of funds and you're like, no. I'm gonna go buy stuff. I'm not just gonna buy good stuff. I'm gonna buy stuff at auctions, and I'm gonna go have to take, like, a, you know, two by four and break off a lock and then, like, walk in and see what I got. And then, like, figure out how to turn this into, like, fourteen hundred dollars a month of rent. And you're like, yes.

52:20

Sign me up, whereas I'm like, that's like that's what you do to get to your Your spot. You got there and then went back to the beginning. And, like, I'm now gonna call you. I don't even know this analogy, but, like, I always heard my engineers talk about servers that run on bare metal, Like, I don't know enough about servers to know what the fuck that means, but it was always like, what's the most, like, hardcore way this server can run? It's like optimized for performance,

Sign me up, whereas I'm like, that's like that's what you do to get to your Your spot. You got there and then went back to the beginning. And, like, I'm now gonna call you. I don't even know this analogy, but, like, I always heard my engineers talk about servers that run on bare metal, Like, I don't know enough about servers to know what the fuck that means, but it was always like, what's the most, like, hardcore way this server can run? It's like optimized for performance,

52:42

And, like, just the just the term bare metal, like, just told me everything I needed to know about what the hell they were talking about. It's like this kind of waste of time hard mode way of doing something that does yield like the best return and, like, satisfaction

And, like, just the just the term bare metal, like, just told me everything I needed to know about what the hell they were talking about. It's like this kind of waste of time hard mode way of doing something that does yield like the best return and, like, satisfaction

52:54

of, like,

of, like,

52:55

optimizing the space. Yeah. I was, like, squeezing the juice out of the fruit. And, like, to me, it's, like, moisture, like,

optimizing the space. Yeah. I was, like, squeezing the juice out of the fruit. And, like, to me, it's, like, moisture, like,

53:02

you like to operate on bare metal. It's like you're choosing to, like, play this game on, like, you're like, how do I handwrite

you like to operate on bare metal. It's like you're choosing to, like, play this game on, like, you're like, how do I handwrite

53:09

my UTM parameters on my ads? And then, like, how do I, you know, stock my deodorant sticks myself and answer every customer service question? And then how do I, like, buy real estate at a foreclosed

my UTM parameters on my ads? And then, like, how do I, you know, stock my deodorant sticks myself and answer every customer service question? And then how do I, like, buy real estate at a foreclosed

53:20

with no financing and no diligence,

with no financing and no diligence,

53:22

and then, like, figure out how to make that work. You're bare metal. You know, there is, like,

and then, like, figure out how to make that work. You're bare metal. You know, there is, like,

53:27

first, the the I learned how to break into houses. Like, I learned how to pick locks because of real estate. Like, I can walk into a house now and, like, open it up pretty much because and, like, I I carry tools with me when I'm traveling to these houses to be able to, like, open up homes so that I can go inside, which is a little bit crazy.

first, the the I learned how to break into houses. Like, I learned how to pick locks because of real estate. Like, I can walk into a house now and, like, open it up pretty much because and, like, I I carry tools with me when I'm traveling to these houses to be able to, like, open up homes so that I can go inside, which is a little bit crazy.

53:45

In in fact, I saw my parents. My parents are, you know, too, like, an older,

In in fact, I saw my parents. My parents are, you know, too, like, an older,

53:50

Indian couple, obviously. That are, like, infirm and what you know, my mom will be, like, my knee hurts. She walks through the limp. And then when she's trying to break into a house with me, She'll turn into, like, Yoda where if she could do spins. She's like, what if I climb up to the top of the ceiling and, like, go you know, Jimmy down the chimney? I think I can get us in there. I'm like, I thought you need her, but now you're now you're perfectly fine. You can, like, climb this wall and, like, you know, go up the go up the into the chimney and she's like, yeah, I got it for this. But I think that really, I think there's a lot of, in my family, there's just a lot of interest in business. And so being an LP is a ton of fun, and I'm an LP in a bunch of these, real estate and I'm, like, looking at the numbers and some are making good money and some aren't.

Indian couple, obviously. That are, like, infirm and what you know, my mom will be, like, my knee hurts. She walks through the limp. And then when she's trying to break into a house with me, She'll turn into, like, Yoda where if she could do spins. She's like, what if I climb up to the top of the ceiling and, like, go you know, Jimmy down the chimney? I think I can get us in there. I'm like, I thought you need her, but now you're now you're perfectly fine. You can, like, climb this wall and, like, you know, go up the go up the into the chimney and she's like, yeah, I got it for this. But I think that really, I think there's a lot of, in my family, there's just a lot of interest in business. And so being an LP is a ton of fun, and I'm an LP in a bunch of these, real estate and I'm, like, looking at the numbers and some are making good money and some aren't.

54:32

But, like, you know, there's no,

But, like, you know, there's no,

54:35

sexiness to it. It's a it's a paper money. Like, you know, bring me to sexy problems. Like, oh, your toilet is broken. What the fuck are you doing here? Why is your toilet break every day?

sexiness to it. It's a it's a paper money. Like, you know, bring me to sexy problems. Like, oh, your toilet is broken. What the fuck are you doing here? Why is your toilet break every day?

54:45

Oh, the government is gonna write me a check for eighteen months. This is crazy. The government is gonna pay me late fees. The government is gonna call me and be like, Hey, Moiz. You've got a house here. This guy campaign is rent. We're gonna pay you eighteen months of future rent in the last two months and late fees for the last two months. Tell me why you're doing this. How did you get to this? Who thought this was a good idea?

Oh, the government is gonna write me a check for eighteen months. This is crazy. The government is gonna pay me late fees. The government is gonna call me and be like, Hey, Moiz. You've got a house here. This guy campaign is rent. We're gonna pay you eighteen months of future rent in the last two months and late fees for the last two months. Tell me why you're doing this. How did you get to this? Who thought this was a good idea?

55:04

You know, does Greg Abbott think this is a good idea? Because that's a lot of money you're gonna give me. And so,

You know, does Greg Abbott think this is a good idea? Because that's a lot of money you're gonna give me. And so,

55:10

you know, business is great and making money is great, but it's a lot more fun to be an active participant

you know, business is great and making money is great, but it's a lot more fun to be an active participant

55:15

rather than a sidelines purchasement. Like, I don't wanna I don't wanna read what's in the Wall Street Journal and be like, okay, that's great. I wanna be, like, a part of that system that's going on. There's a great, like, analogy when this guy

rather than a sidelines purchasement. Like, I don't wanna I don't wanna read what's in the Wall Street Journal and be like, okay, that's great. I wanna be, like, a part of that system that's going on. There's a great, like, analogy when this guy

55:26

who's a partner at a big law firm. His name was Joe Flom. He worked at Scadden ARPS.

who's a partner at a big law firm. His name was Joe Flom. He worked at Scadden ARPS.

55:31

This was back in, like, the eighties and nineties where there were all these mergers happening.

This was back in, like, the eighties and nineties where there were all these mergers happening.

55:36

He's he was like eighty years old, and he slipped and fell in his bathroom, and his head was bleeding.

He's he was like eighty years old, and he slipped and fell in his bathroom, and his head was bleeding.

55:41

And, he walked into this board meeting because he was part of this board that needed to bend off a hospital acquirer,

And, he walked into this board meeting because he was part of this board that needed to bend off a hospital acquirer,

55:47

and he had paper towels on his head because he was bleeding and he's eighty years old. And people were like, what the fuck is going on? You're bleeding profusely in your eighties. Like, I slipped in film. They're like, go to the hospital, and he's like, no, I wanna be here. And they're like, what what's going on? He's like, I don't care if I'm, you know, acquiring a company or fighting off an acquirer. I just wanna be in the game, and nothing is gonna stop me. And this guy was eighty and bleeding and had paper towels on his head, but he wanted to be in the game. And I really that. Like, I wanna be in the game. That's the way there's, a lot of fun in life.

and he had paper towels on his head because he was bleeding and he's eighty years old. And people were like, what the fuck is going on? You're bleeding profusely in your eighties. Like, I slipped in film. They're like, go to the hospital, and he's like, no, I wanna be here. And they're like, what what's going on? He's like, I don't care if I'm, you know, acquiring a company or fighting off an acquirer. I just wanna be in the game, and nothing is gonna stop me. And this guy was eighty and bleeding and had paper towels on his head, but he wanted to be in the game. And I really that. Like, I wanna be in the game. That's the way there's, a lot of fun in life.

56:18

You,

You,

56:19

you watch basketball. Right? Yeah.

you watch basketball. Right? Yeah.

56:22

Do you which, like, athlete or in any sport? Doesn't matter. Which athlete are you like? I admire their Like, the way they do their thing is how I do my thing or how I want to do my thing. Yeah. Tom Brady. Tom Brady for two like, I remember he won a Super Bowl And there was a sixty minutes, like, interview with him at twenty seventh. He was this was not as, like, you know, seven Super Bowl. This is, like, in second. And they're, like, so what do you, you know, you're a Super Bowl champion NFL MVP, what do you think? And he's like,

Do you which, like, athlete or in any sport? Doesn't matter. Which athlete are you like? I admire their Like, the way they do their thing is how I do my thing or how I want to do my thing. Yeah. Tom Brady. Tom Brady for two like, I remember he won a Super Bowl And there was a sixty minutes, like, interview with him at twenty seventh. He was this was not as, like, you know, seven Super Bowl. This is, like, in second. And they're, like, so what do you, you know, you're a Super Bowl champion NFL MVP, what do you think? And he's like,

56:50

is this all there is to life? Like, that's what he said at the end. He's like, is this all there is? And, you know, then he retired after two weeks. He's like, I gotta get back in the game. I had two weeks off. This is boring. I need to be back in the game. And he's just, like, an ultimate competitor, and I really admire that about him. But I'm sorry. That was the answer to the question.

is this all there is to life? Like, that's what he said at the end. He's like, is this all there is? And, you know, then he retired after two weeks. He's like, I gotta get back in the game. I had two weeks off. This is boring. I need to be back in the game. And he's just, like, an ultimate competitor, and I really admire that about him. But I'm sorry. That was the answer to the question.

57:07

That's that's great.

That's that's great.

57:09

I don't do you have five five more minutes. I wanna do a couple on the personal stuff. Alright. So So what were you gonna ask about the athlete stuff though? I didn't mean to interrupt you. No. That's what I was asking. I just wanna know who you who you admire.

I don't do you have five five more minutes. I wanna do a couple on the personal stuff. Alright. So So what were you gonna ask about the athlete stuff though? I didn't mean to interrupt you. No. That's what I was asking. I just wanna know who you who you admire.

57:20

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57:24

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57:33

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57:36

You we had a little doc. I said put down some bullet points. I said, you don't have to explain what they mean, but, yeah, give me some nuggets that we could go off of. On it, you had a sexual personal stuff and you go, You have two that are really interesting to me. You go, I don't know how to spend money. What does that mean? Yeah.

You we had a little doc. I said put down some bullet points. I said, you don't have to explain what they mean, but, yeah, give me some nuggets that we could go off of. On it, you had a sexual personal stuff and you go, You have two that are really interesting to me. You go, I don't know how to spend money. What does that mean? Yeah.

57:50

You know, I'm living in the Airbnbs that are, like, five grand a month. I don't have a car. I don't have a house.

You know, I'm living in the Airbnbs that are, like, five grand a month. I don't have a car. I don't have a house.

57:56

I live out of a suitcase.

I live out of a suitcase.

57:59

And, like, you know, when expensive things are, like, nice, I'm, like, can I afford like, I still do the math being like this seems too expensive for the value I'm getting? Even though that, like, you know, at this point, a thousand dollars probably has no value. I mean, not like no value, but, like, it don't it's not gonna materially change my life. And I'm still so cautious when I'm spending twenty dollars. I don't know what the I don't know how to get this out of my system.

And, like, you know, when expensive things are, like, nice, I'm, like, can I afford like, I still do the math being like this seems too expensive for the value I'm getting? Even though that, like, you know, at this point, a thousand dollars probably has no value. I mean, not like no value, but, like, it don't it's not gonna materially change my life. And I'm still so cautious when I'm spending twenty dollars. I don't know what the I don't know how to get this out of my system.

58:19

Do you know how to get it out of your system?

Do you know how to get it out of your system?

58:22

I don't know how to get it out of my system. I have no problem spending money.

I don't know how to get it out of my system. I have no problem spending money.

58:28

So too much money, but, like, I've seen this. And I think, you know, the one of the main things is I see my dad. And my dad has done really well very, like, for he's got same immigrant story that, like, everybody has, which is you've come to the country. He had, I think, ninety one dollars.

So too much money, but, like, I've seen this. And I think, you know, the one of the main things is I see my dad. And my dad has done really well very, like, for he's got same immigrant story that, like, everybody has, which is you've come to the country. He had, I think, ninety one dollars.

58:42

That was starting point. Right? So that's the before and like, you know, he's made good money in his lifetime.

That was starting point. Right? So that's the before and like, you know, he's made good money in his lifetime.

58:48

Nothing like, you know,

Nothing like, you know,

58:49

crazy to write home about, but, like, especially from a ninety one dollar starting point, like, They're they have my parents have enough money to do whatever they want. They really don't need to penny pinch, but, like, you know, if we go to Starbucks and it's, like, you know, would you like the he's like kind of the small. They're like, okay, it's called tall. He's like, no, but what's a smaller than tall? Because I feel like the tall is gonna be over bright. He's like, you know, this is three dollars. Like, I I can make this. It's mostly water. Like, and he'll be talking to the people about it. Right? I'm just like, oh my god. Like, Not at least it's embarrassing, but, like,

crazy to write home about, but, like, especially from a ninety one dollar starting point, like, They're they have my parents have enough money to do whatever they want. They really don't need to penny pinch, but, like, you know, if we go to Starbucks and it's, like, you know, would you like the he's like kind of the small. They're like, okay, it's called tall. He's like, no, but what's a smaller than tall? Because I feel like the tall is gonna be over bright. He's like, you know, this is three dollars. Like, I I can make this. It's mostly water. Like, and he'll be talking to the people about it. Right? I'm just like, oh my god. Like, Not at least it's embarrassing, but, like,

59:19

it's embarrassing in the moment because he'll just be like, let me clarify. You're saying the thing that's mostly water is three dollars and eighty cents. Like,

it's embarrassing in the moment because he'll just be like, let me clarify. You're saying the thing that's mostly water is three dollars and eighty cents. Like,

59:27

hold on. Hold on. Stop a lot. What's

hold on. Hold on. Stop a lot. What's

59:30

what's going on here or, like, you know, you know, he'll pack seven people into a hotel room because, like, you know, we can make it work. I was like, yeah. But do we have to?

what's going on here or, like, you know, you know, he'll pack seven people into a hotel room because, like, you know, we can make it work. I was like, yeah. But do we have to?

59:39

Like, we're on vacation here. Why does it have to be a struggle? And, like, and so, you know, just saw he could never get it out of his system. Like, those those the scarcity mindset was just so, like, ingrained in him because, and that's, like, alright, I get it. Like, he had no safety net. At ninety one dollars, like, every dollar counted. And, like, it wasn't about spending. It was about, like, saving to get to build a safety net because you're in this new you're in a foreign country your parents can't help you. Nobody can help you. Like, and so I get that. But I saw that, like, oh, wow.

Like, we're on vacation here. Why does it have to be a struggle? And, like, and so, you know, just saw he could never get it out of his system. Like, those those the scarcity mindset was just so, like, ingrained in him because, and that's, like, alright, I get it. Like, he had no safety net. At ninety one dollars, like, every dollar counted. And, like, it wasn't about spending. It was about, like, saving to get to build a safety net because you're in this new you're in a foreign country your parents can't help you. Nobody can help you. Like, and so I get that. But I saw that, like, oh, wow.

01:00:07

You know, actually, the money come it wasn't logical. Like, once the money was there, that didn't change. The mindset didn't change. So it's like I had to separate out. There's a mindset around money. And then there's, like, the logical, like, situation about the money. And, like, there's actually, like, they're unrelated. You would think once the logical situation changes, the mindset will change. And it's, like, no, it doesn't. So it's like a active thing.

You know, actually, the money come it wasn't logical. Like, once the money was there, that didn't change. The mindset didn't change. So it's like I had to separate out. There's a mindset around money. And then there's, like, the logical, like, situation about the money. And, like, there's actually, like, they're unrelated. You would think once the logical situation changes, the mindset will change. And it's, like, no, it doesn't. So it's like a active thing.

01:00:28

And so then I just started to, like, one of the reasons I asked you who you admire and you're like, I admire this guy who's got, like, a bloody head going into the board meeting because he wants to do business that bad. I would view that as a failure and you view that as a success.

And so then I just started to, like, one of the reasons I asked you who you admire and you're like, I admire this guy who's got, like, a bloody head going into the board meeting because he wants to do business that bad. I would view that as a failure and you view that as a success.

01:00:39

And, like, because I have this belief, which is you become what you admire. Right? Like, fundamentally,

And, like, because I have this belief, which is you become what you admire. Right? Like, fundamentally,

01:00:45

If you admire something, you're gonna strive to it. So it makes a lot of sense to really pick and choose what you admire. Like, I'll give you an example. A lot of people admire Elon Musk.

If you admire something, you're gonna strive to it. So it makes a lot of sense to really pick and choose what you admire. Like, I'll give you an example. A lot of people admire Elon Musk.

01:00:54

And I think Elon Musk is obviously super incredible

And I think Elon Musk is obviously super incredible

01:00:57

in a couple of ways. Like, he's one of the greatest inventor and businessman of our time. And, like, you know, the greatest since Steve jobs, I would say. But, like, you know, I think he's, like, an Edison of our time. Great. Sure.

in a couple of ways. Like, he's one of the greatest inventor and businessman of our time. And, like, you know, the greatest since Steve jobs, I would say. But, like, you know, I think he's, like, an Edison of our time. Great. Sure.

01:01:09

But he's also had, I think, like, you know, I don't know, four failed marriages. And, like, that's not something I want for myself. So, like, I gotta be careful

But he's also had, I think, like, you know, I don't know, four failed marriages. And, like, that's not something I want for myself. So, like, I gotta be careful

01:01:16

to admire the lot, like, the the all encompassing person because I don't want the all the full result of that. Like,

to admire the lot, like, the the all encompassing person because I don't want the all the full result of that. Like,

01:01:23

the, you know, and so you gotta gotta, like so I got I got really specific about what I admired.

the, you know, and so you gotta gotta, like so I got I got really specific about what I admired.

01:01:29

And once I admired certain things and I started to live life like those people, I was like, well, this guy's really, really happy.

And once I admired certain things and I started to live life like those people, I was like, well, this guy's really, really happy.

01:01:35

And, like, wow, he's, like, pretty generous. And he's not generous based off of having this, like, huge amount of wealth. He's generous because, like, he doesn't feel super scarce about money. He doesn't feel this lack of money.

And, like, wow, he's, like, pretty generous. And he's not generous based off of having this, like, huge amount of wealth. He's generous because, like, he doesn't feel super scarce about money. He doesn't feel this lack of money.

01:01:46

And so he's like willing to give. And, like, he's willing to give freely and he doesn't think twice about it. And then he doesn't pat himself on the back about it either. Like, oh, wow. I really admire that about Like, I wanna be more like that. And so to me, the only thing that got me to change my mindset was knowing that it's not gonna change based on how much money is in the bank. And b, like, I have to change who I admire

And so he's like willing to give. And, like, he's willing to give freely and he doesn't think twice about it. And then he doesn't pat himself on the back about it either. Like, oh, wow. I really admire that about Like, I wanna be more like that. And so to me, the only thing that got me to change my mindset was knowing that it's not gonna change based on how much money is in the bank. And b, like, I have to change who I admire

01:02:07

if I'm gonna, like, change who I become. Right? Because, like, I will naturally start to follow those blueprints

if I'm gonna, like, change who I become. Right? Because, like, I will naturally start to follow those blueprints

01:02:12

and observe people doing those things and be like, oh, downloaded that. Like, I will,

and observe people doing those things and be like, oh, downloaded that. Like, I will,

01:02:18

I will make that I will make that happen. Like, I'll give you a little small win for me on this front. Like,

I will make that I will make that happen. Like, I'll give you a little small win for me on this front. Like,

01:02:23

I was just on vacation. I was in Hawaii last week. And, like, my parent my dad is, like I said, like, a horrible tipper. And, like, so my whole life, I basically saw my mom being, like, tip him and my dad being, like, you don't have to. And, like, you don't have to or, like, I did. And I'm, like, he handed them, like, a one. Like, one one was his tip. And, like, the absolute minimum. And I just saw the look in the valet guy's face or whatever. Like, it it wasn't valet. Like, he wouldn't do valet. It's like the face of the guy who you you're mandatory.

I was just on vacation. I was in Hawaii last week. And, like, my parent my dad is, like I said, like, a horrible tipper. And, like, so my whole life, I basically saw my mom being, like, tip him and my dad being, like, you don't have to. And, like, you don't have to or, like, I did. And I'm, like, he handed them, like, a one. Like, one one was his tip. And, like, the absolute minimum. And I just saw the look in the valet guy's face or whatever. Like, it it wasn't valet. Like, he wouldn't do valet. It's like the face of the guy who you you're mandatory.

01:02:52

Standing there. You gotta give them something. The bell hop. Right? And it's like so this time,

Standing there. You gotta give them something. The bell hop. Right? And it's like so this time,

01:02:57

we get to the place. The bell hop takes up our bags, you know, to the hotel room or whatever. And,

we get to the place. The bell hop takes up our bags, you know, to the hotel room or whatever. And,

01:03:02

I felt all those same urges of, like, my upbringing, which was like, we can just take the bags ourselves. It's like, yeah, but, like, that's this guy's job and, like, it's not about being lazy. It's like, that's how this economy works. That's how this ecosystem works. If I don't, like, you gotta feed the whole food chain. Otherwise, somebody's not gonna eat. Right? So it's like Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna let him do that. Then we got to the room. I was like, we have no cash because I don't carry any cat a dollar bills. Like, I only have cards.

I felt all those same urges of, like, my upbringing, which was like, we can just take the bags ourselves. It's like, yeah, but, like, that's this guy's job and, like, it's not about being lazy. It's like, that's how this economy works. That's how this ecosystem works. If I don't, like, you gotta feed the whole food chain. Otherwise, somebody's not gonna eat. Right? So it's like Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna let him do that. Then we got to the room. I was like, we have no cash because I don't carry any cat a dollar bills. Like, I only have cards.

01:03:25

And so I've been in this situation, like, five times four. I'm not I'm not proud of it, but, like, I would just, like, dude, sorry. I don't have, like, I don't have anything. I don't have any cash. We just got here. I didn't bring cash. Or I would, like, you know, let the guy leave it at the door. And then I'd be like, know, not there to, like, tip the guy. And, and this time I was, like, I was, like, hey, man. Like, I'm so sorry. I don't have any cash on me. What's your name? And, like, I made sure I went and got them later. And it was, like, again, whatever. Ten bucks. But those ten bucks meant a lot to to me. And, like,

And so I've been in this situation, like, five times four. I'm not I'm not proud of it, but, like, I would just, like, dude, sorry. I don't have, like, I don't have anything. I don't have any cash. We just got here. I didn't bring cash. Or I would, like, you know, let the guy leave it at the door. And then I'd be like, know, not there to, like, tip the guy. And, and this time I was, like, I was, like, hey, man. Like, I'm so sorry. I don't have any cash on me. What's your name? And, like, I made sure I went and got them later. And it was, like, again, whatever. Ten bucks. But those ten bucks meant a lot to to me. And, like,

01:03:54

Okay. That's a step in the direction of the guy who's not,

Okay. That's a step in the direction of the guy who's not,

01:03:59

like, has this lack mindset or scarce mindset about money and is looking to like, hold on tightly to everything or, like, avoid paying things. It's like, no. No. No.

like, has this lack mindset or scarce mindset about money and is looking to like, hold on tightly to everything or, like, avoid paying things. It's like, no. No. No.

01:04:09

Like,

Like,

01:04:10

you know, make it happen. I actually had, like, a pretty comical series of events where on the even on this trip where I, like, my kid is two and a half, but it but I don't know if you know, kids fly free under two.

you know, make it happen. I actually had, like, a pretty comical series of events where on the even on this trip where I, like, my kid is two and a half, but it but I don't know if you know, kids fly free under two.

01:04:21

Yeah. And so I bought first class tickets because I'm trying to be a baller shot caller, but then I do the lap I I lie about her age to make sure she's under two. And, like,

Yeah. And so I bought first class tickets because I'm trying to be a baller shot caller, but then I do the lap I I lie about her age to make sure she's under two. And, like,

01:04:30

I knew in the moment, I was like, this feels wrong, but I was also like, the logic was like, well, it's like a couple thousand bucks to buy this two year old kid a seat. Like, I'm like, I'm really gonna do that. And then everybody told me they don't check. So I'm like, I'm gonna get away with it. And I got penalized so bad for this cheapness that, like, It was just karma teaching me this wonderful lesson because we get to the plan and they're like, oh, you guys can't sit. Like, sorry. You can't board the plan. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, not only can I not board the plane? I'm first class, but I get to board first. And they were like, no. Actually, you have, like, two lap infants. You got two little babies. There's only, like, x number of masks in the top thing. So, like, there's three masks and there's four of you. We can't let you board this plane. We're gonna have to ask to see if somebody wants to switch seats with you you to get on this plane.

I knew in the moment, I was like, this feels wrong, but I was also like, the logic was like, well, it's like a couple thousand bucks to buy this two year old kid a seat. Like, I'm like, I'm really gonna do that. And then everybody told me they don't check. So I'm like, I'm gonna get away with it. And I got penalized so bad for this cheapness that, like, It was just karma teaching me this wonderful lesson because we get to the plan and they're like, oh, you guys can't sit. Like, sorry. You can't board the plan. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, not only can I not board the plane? I'm first class, but I get to board first. And they were like, no. Actually, you have, like, two lap infants. You got two little babies. There's only, like, x number of masks in the top thing. So, like, there's three masks and there's four of you. We can't let you board this plane. We're gonna have to ask to see if somebody wants to switch seats with you you to get on this plane.

01:05:14

And I was like, what? And, I was like, nobody's gonna wanna switch seats with the people with the baby.

And I was like, what? And, I was like, nobody's gonna wanna switch seats with the people with the baby.

01:05:20

Like, have us sit next to them. Like, it's not gonna so sure enough, they go on. Nobody wants to switch. I'm like, alright. We'll we'll take, like, we'll buy another seat. Like, It's too late, sir. They're at sit flight full. I'm like, alright. We'll we'll go to coach. We'll we'll we'll move back. Like,

Like, have us sit next to them. Like, it's not gonna so sure enough, they go on. Nobody wants to switch. I'm like, alright. We'll we'll take, like, we'll buy another seat. Like, It's too late, sir. They're at sit flight full. I'm like, alright. We'll we'll go to coach. We'll we'll we'll move back. Like,

01:05:34

coach is full. And I was like, alright, what's the next flight? Like, it's tomorrow. I'm like, oh, fuck. I knew this little cheap move on my part of lying about the four months of my kids' age would come back to bite me, and it did. And so then, like, we my wife, and we had this horrible flight over where, like, one my wife was on the last row of the plane with a baby in the middle row between two people. And, like, because some guy was, like, I'll give up my middle seat in the back, like, to and now I'm sitting next to this dude. And so instead of having this awesome family experience, rather than this terrible one because I cheaped out, And so I just started to pay attention to all the ways that saving money was costing me money and costing me, like, joy.

coach is full. And I was like, alright, what's the next flight? Like, it's tomorrow. I'm like, oh, fuck. I knew this little cheap move on my part of lying about the four months of my kids' age would come back to bite me, and it did. And so then, like, we my wife, and we had this horrible flight over where, like, one my wife was on the last row of the plane with a baby in the middle row between two people. And, like, because some guy was, like, I'll give up my middle seat in the back, like, to and now I'm sitting next to this dude. And so instead of having this awesome family experience, rather than this terrible one because I cheaped out, And so I just started to pay attention to all the ways that saving money was costing me money and costing me, like, joy.

01:06:10

Rather than, like, how much it's saving me and, like, what I what I keep.

Rather than, like, how much it's saving me and, like, what I what I keep.

01:06:14

And so then who do you admire then? Is it is it somebody who's made that mind? Like, who is that? Yeah. Like my trainer. So, like, I talk about him a lot. It's probably, like, I roll at this point, but, like,

And so then who do you admire then? Is it is it somebody who's made that mind? Like, who is that? Yeah. Like my trainer. So, like, I talk about him a lot. It's probably, like, I roll at this point, but, like,

01:06:24

the happiest person I know and not happy in, like, a cheesy way. Like, But in a damn, I've never seen this dude not in a good mood. And, like, I've seen him stuck in traffic for three hours. I've been late super fucking late and inconsiderate and, like, you know, like but he greets me. Like, he's he's just been having a party. He's like, dude, where have you been? Because his life is a traveling party. And so I saw that and I was like, man,

the happiest person I know and not happy in, like, a cheesy way. Like, But in a damn, I've never seen this dude not in a good mood. And, like, I've seen him stuck in traffic for three hours. I've been late super fucking late and inconsiderate and, like, you know, like but he greets me. Like, he's he's just been having a party. He's like, dude, where have you been? Because his life is a traveling party. And so I saw that and I was like, man,

01:06:49

on every conventional

on every conventional

01:06:50

metric that, like, I was raised, like, you you came from Brown. It's like, He's, I think he's, like, forty one forty two years old. He's not married. That's a that's a, like, household disaster if you're, like, a a brown person. It's, like, you know, we're having interventions,

metric that, like, I was raised, like, you you came from Brown. It's like, He's, I think he's, like, forty one forty two years old. He's not married. That's a that's a, like, household disaster if you're, like, a a brown person. It's, like, you know, we're having interventions,

01:07:04

you know, if that happens.

you know, if that happens.

01:07:06

You know, he does well for himself as a personal trainer, but he's not the most successful guy I know. Like, I I'm surrounded by people with more quote unquote success than him,

You know, he does well for himself as a personal trainer, but he's not the most successful guy I know. Like, I I'm surrounded by people with more quote unquote success than him,

01:07:15

in terms of financial success.

in terms of financial success.

01:07:18

You know, so, like, you know, just in terms of, like, the kind of conventional metrics, the things I thought were most important, you know, his scoreboard, it wasn't like, wow, this guy. I admire him because he's successful. So he's successful with the game of life because this dude's never in a bad mood.

You know, so, like, you know, just in terms of, like, the kind of conventional metrics, the things I thought were most important, you know, his scoreboard, it wasn't like, wow, this guy. I admire him because he's successful. So he's successful with the game of life because this dude's never in a bad mood.

01:07:30

And, like, because of that, everybody wants to be around him. He's the most loved guy I know. Because of that, he has these, like, magical experiences. Like, you go to a coffee shop with this guy, and, like, you're gonna have, like, something if you just hang out with him for three hours, like, something awesome is gonna happen, because his mood, he's gonna make a joke, and then that person's gonna say this thing, then they're gonna take us to the backroom and hook us up because they just liked our vibe and, like, tell the story. Like, he goes to the DMV

And, like, because of that, everybody wants to be around him. He's the most loved guy I know. Because of that, he has these, like, magical experiences. Like, you go to a coffee shop with this guy, and, like, you're gonna have, like, something if you just hang out with him for three hours, like, something awesome is gonna happen, because his mood, he's gonna make a joke, and then that person's gonna say this thing, then they're gonna take us to the backroom and hook us up because they just liked our vibe and, like, tell the story. Like, he goes to the DMV

01:07:54

and, like, he, you know, he goes to the DMV. Like, DMV is, like, the classic, like, worst place on earth to be.

and, like, he, you know, he goes to the DMV. Like, DMV is, like, the classic, like, worst place on earth to be.

01:08:00

And, like, he went in being like, nah, dude. He looked up the DMV on Yelp. It had two stars.

And, like, he went in being like, nah, dude. He looked up the DMV on Yelp. It had two stars.

01:08:05

And he's like, I'm gonna have a five star experience because I'm a be a five star DMV participant.

And he's like, I'm gonna have a five star experience because I'm a be a five star DMV participant.

01:08:10

You know, and just watch what happened. So he, like, walked in with a little pep in his step. He smiling and he makes a joke to somebody and he realized and somebody's like, oh, you could I'll just help you out over here. And everybody else is grumbling in line. Like, why is this guy getting to go up front? She's like, don't mind, damn. And then she flirts with him. And, like, she she hooks, and he's supposed to take the test. And she's like, you know what? Like, it's fine. You've been driving for a long time. And she just gives him the thing. And he's like, walks out. He's like, damn, if I could do it at the DMV, I could do it anywhere. Right? Like, all. He's like, I he's like, I wasn't always this way. He's like, dude, I was depressed for a while. My dad died and I used to be bitter about him for x y z. And he's like, He's like, you know, I used to be the guy. Like, I didn't wanna come out from the covers because I just wasn't looking forward to my day. Like, you know, if you look me, you just see, like, a blanket and two eyeballs because I just didn't wanna get out of bed. And he's not saying this as a motivational talk because he doesn't he's not motivational speaker. It's just, like, He's my personal trainer. I just happen to hear these stories. So when I heard this, I was like, okay.

You know, and just watch what happened. So he, like, walked in with a little pep in his step. He smiling and he makes a joke to somebody and he realized and somebody's like, oh, you could I'll just help you out over here. And everybody else is grumbling in line. Like, why is this guy getting to go up front? She's like, don't mind, damn. And then she flirts with him. And, like, she she hooks, and he's supposed to take the test. And she's like, you know what? Like, it's fine. You've been driving for a long time. And she just gives him the thing. And he's like, walks out. He's like, damn, if I could do it at the DMV, I could do it anywhere. Right? Like, all. He's like, I he's like, I wasn't always this way. He's like, dude, I was depressed for a while. My dad died and I used to be bitter about him for x y z. And he's like, He's like, you know, I used to be the guy. Like, I didn't wanna come out from the covers because I just wasn't looking forward to my day. Like, you know, if you look me, you just see, like, a blanket and two eyeballs because I just didn't wanna get out of bed. And he's not saying this as a motivational talk because he doesn't he's not motivational speaker. It's just, like, He's my personal trainer. I just happen to hear these stories. So when I heard this, I was like, okay.

01:09:05

This dude is winning. The reason I want this money, this family, this, all these things because I wanna feel good. This dude just feels good on all, like, he feels good no matter what situation you put him in. So that's, like, an invincibility.

This dude is winning. The reason I want this money, this family, this, all these things because I wanna feel good. This dude just feels good on all, like, he feels good no matter what situation you put him in. So that's, like, an invincibility.

01:09:16

Right? Like, He is unconditionally

Right? Like, He is unconditionally

01:09:18

feeling good. So that's the guy I started to admire. And then I started to pattern myself after things that he was any time I noticed he did something different than me or my friends or the people around me, I, like, took special note of that and, like, would lean into trying that out as a new experience to see, you know, Is that part of what makes him him?

feeling good. So that's the guy I started to admire. And then I started to pattern myself after things that he was any time I noticed he did something different than me or my friends or the people around me, I, like, took special note of that and, like, would lean into trying that out as a new experience to see, you know, Is that part of what makes him him?

01:09:36

That's really interesting,

That's really interesting,

01:09:38

and a great story. And,

and a great story. And,

01:09:41

You know, for long, I feel like everyone I've admired, I've just been it's almost like,

You know, for long, I feel like everyone I've admired, I've just been it's almost like,

01:09:47

sex where I'm just automatically attracted to that person. It's not even conscious. Like, I just get an erection

sex where I'm just automatically attracted to that person. It's not even conscious. Like, I just get an erection

01:09:52

when, you know, I hear about Tom Brady because I'm like, wow, that guy is awesome and really good at what he does. And he's this ultimate competitor and wants to win.

when, you know, I hear about Tom Brady because I'm like, wow, that guy is awesome and really good at what he does. And he's this ultimate competitor and wants to win.

01:10:01

And I never real I never even thought that you could choose who you admire. I just assumed it was, like, you know, your sexuality where you're, like, you attracted to this person? It's, like, comes from here and not here.

And I never real I never even thought that you could choose who you admire. I just assumed it was, like, you know, your sexuality where you're, like, you attracted to this person? It's, like, comes from here and not here.

01:10:13

Yeah. Actually, maybe that is true. I think there's some truth to what you said.

Yeah. Actually, maybe that is true. I think there's some truth to what you said.

01:10:17

But, like, in the same way that, like, we don't all go try to marry porn stars. Like, if there's a certain point where you're, like, what really matters to What do I actually want? And it's like, well, there's this initial thing, this physical attracts, which is important.

But, like, in the same way that, like, we don't all go try to marry porn stars. Like, if there's a certain point where you're, like, what really matters to What do I actually want? And it's like, well, there's this initial thing, this physical attracts, which is important.

01:10:30

But then, like, actually, I now know it feels really good to have somebody who's caring and thoughtful and, like, whatever. Like, I could trust. And and the the things that are like slightly below the surface that, like, you're like, oh, I actually now that I know about it, now that I felt it, I'm, like, those are super important. I just, you know, it's just less primal than, like, the physical attraction, I guess.

But then, like, actually, I now know it feels really good to have somebody who's caring and thoughtful and, like, whatever. Like, I could trust. And and the the things that are like slightly below the surface that, like, you're like, oh, I actually now that I know about it, now that I felt it, I'm, like, those are super important. I just, you know, it's just less primal than, like, the physical attraction, I guess.

01:10:50

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point.

01:10:52

I've not done a good job of admiring people that I know really well. I've only know, like, you know, I admire people that I just hear about their competitiveness and their instinct to win. And, I'm gonna think about that and try to do a better job of that.

I've not done a good job of admiring people that I know really well. I've only know, like, you know, I admire people that I just hear about their competitiveness and their instinct to win. And, I'm gonna think about that and try to do a better job of that.

01:11:04

Your brother's Your brother's another person I chose to, like, admire because I was, like,

Your brother's Your brother's another person I chose to, like, admire because I was, like,

01:11:08

he's also your brother's also, like, in a good mood pretty much all the time.

he's also your brother's also, like, in a good mood pretty much all the time.

01:11:14

I I've I've never seen him, like, I've never seen him either,

I I've I've never seen him, like, I've never seen him either,

01:11:18

like, in low energy Like, I've never seen him just kind of, like, on autopilot, the switch is off. And I've also, like, even when he's, like,

like, in low energy Like, I've never seen him just kind of, like, on autopilot, the switch is off. And I've also, like, even when he's, like,

01:11:26

like, I've never seen him defeated either.

like, I've never seen him defeated either.

01:11:29

So

So

01:11:30

so, you know, those are so so, you know, when I've seen him, I'm like, he walks into like, when your brother walks into the room, like, he's sub he unconsciously goes, Alright. And it's like That's good. Yeah. He's expecting, like, the parade to start. And I'm like, bro, this is just a bakery.

so, you know, those are so so, you know, when I've seen him, I'm like, he walks into like, when your brother walks into the room, like, he's sub he unconsciously goes, Alright. And it's like That's good. Yeah. He's expecting, like, the parade to start. And I'm like, bro, this is just a bakery.

01:11:44

But he's like, alright. What are you doing? What are you eating? Oh, is that good? Alright. And, like, it's not that he's he's not, like, mister smooth socially,

But he's like, alright. What are you doing? What are you eating? Oh, is that good? Alright. And, like, it's not that he's he's not, like, mister smooth socially,

01:11:52

but his, like, will to have a good time

but his, like, will to have a good time

01:11:55

are, like, to have the experience, like, in its fullest. Actually, like, imposes its will on everybody else. Everybody has to participate at that point because they're, like, yeah, it's croissant.

are, like, to have the experience, like, in its fullest. Actually, like, imposes its will on everybody else. Everybody has to participate at that point because they're, like, yeah, it's croissant.

01:12:04

You wanna try it? Oh, you know what? You should actually do this. And it's like he forces the good time out of the the average because he just literally walks in. He's like, Alright. What are we doing? Or he'll be like, let's win. And I'm like, let's win what? We're not even, like, playing any like, okay. I have to, like, rise to your level or have to stop being friends with you because,

You wanna try it? Oh, you know what? You should actually do this. And it's like he forces the good time out of the the average because he just literally walks in. He's like, Alright. What are we doing? Or he'll be like, let's win. And I'm like, let's win what? We're not even, like, playing any like, okay. I have to, like, rise to your level or have to stop being friends with you because,

01:12:23

that's just the way you're approaching things. And, like, either, that's just I'm out.

that's just the way you're approaching things. And, like, either, that's just I'm out.

01:12:27

Or I gotta figure out how to be in and being in kinda means, like, being on and not just being, like, ho about that life, you

Or I gotta figure out how to be in and being in kinda means, like, being on and not just being, like, ho about that life, you

01:12:35

know? Yeah. Yeah. I've chosen to stop being friends with him as a result of that.

know? Yeah. Yeah. I've chosen to stop being friends with him as a result of that.

01:12:40

No. In in reality, I actually invite him as well. And, I know we're you know, we were at, we were in Texas,

No. In in reality, I actually invite him as well. And, I know we're you know, we were at, we were in Texas,

01:12:47

for, like, mother's day, it's my father's birthday two weeks ago.

for, like, mother's day, it's my father's birthday two weeks ago.

01:12:50

And,

And,

01:12:51

someone had gone to cost. I think my sister had gone to Costco and bought, like, you know, some cases of water, like, watermelons.

someone had gone to cost. I think my sister had gone to Costco and bought, like, you know, some cases of water, like, watermelons.

01:12:57

And I got home, and she's like, Hey, Moids. Can you get the stuff out of the car? It's, like, heavy and, like, you know,

And I got home, and she's like, Hey, Moids. Can you get the stuff out of the car? It's, like, heavy and, like, you know,

01:13:02

I I I don't wanna do it. And I was like, what do you have Solomon? He's been at home all day. And she's like, he never does anything. Like, he will not look the fingers for this kind of stuff. And I was like, is why this guy's always in a good mood. No one absent anything

I I I don't wanna do it. And I was like, what do you have Solomon? He's been at home all day. And she's like, he never does anything. Like, he will not look the fingers for this kind of stuff. And I was like, is why this guy's always in a good mood. No one absent anything

01:13:15

that, like, you know, is,

that, like, you know, is,

01:13:17

not enjoyable because they know he's already said no to it so often. That it it's not in, like, you know, it's not something that's asked or expected of any longer. So that's why he's always in a good mood. But it is a lot of fun to hang out with him. Like, I And, you know, I'm hanging out with him, often enough to see both sides of that when it's, like, excited and, like, the energy comes. And, you know, it certainly lifts me up. And times where he's, like, more analytical. And he's, like, let's look into this. And does this make sense or more, like, you know, I remember one time when Tyneko was struggling,

not enjoyable because they know he's already said no to it so often. That it it's not in, like, you know, it's not something that's asked or expected of any longer. So that's why he's always in a good mood. But it is a lot of fun to hang out with him. Like, I And, you know, I'm hanging out with him, often enough to see both sides of that when it's, like, excited and, like, the energy comes. And, you know, it certainly lifts me up. And times where he's, like, more analytical. And he's, like, let's look into this. And does this make sense or more, like, you know, I remember one time when Tyneko was struggling,

01:13:46

I was in San Francisco and he's like, we have a new strategy at the whole business where instead of creating our own iPhone games, we're gonna license the intellectual property of others. What do you think of this? This is like a bet the company move. And, you know, I had no idea I was a weirder and twenty two and didn't know anything.

I was in San Francisco and he's like, we have a new strategy at the whole business where instead of creating our own iPhone games, we're gonna license the intellectual property of others. What do you think of this? This is like a bet the company move. And, you know, I had no idea I was a weirder and twenty two and didn't know anything.

01:14:01

But I was like, I could I could get the real sense of, like, it's not just pure optimism. There is a sense of reality there, and that also, like, help me understand him a lot more too.

But I was like, I could I could get the real sense of, like, it's not just pure optimism. There is a sense of reality there, and that also, like, help me understand him a lot more too.

01:14:12

Yeah. He said something about you that I thought was a baller line that I've I've reused many times, which was,

Yeah. He said something about you that I thought was a baller line that I've I've reused many times, which was,

01:14:17

I don't even know if this is the real thing, but this is now the the the legend of it, which was when you went to the deodorant business, somebody was like, hey. I'm always like, Do you even know anything about the deodorant business or, like, about deodorant?

I don't even know if this is the real thing, but this is now the the the legend of it, which was when you went to the deodorant business, somebody was like, hey. I'm always like, Do you even know anything about the deodorant business or, like, about deodorant?

01:14:28

And you were, like, no. I know nothing about deodorant, but in six months, gonna know everything there is to know about deodorant. And, like, that's all. That's enough for me to go. Like, I can start this. I don't need to, like, think of myself as some expert. I've used that so many times. Is that a Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That was definitely true. I remember who it was too, actually. It was a husband of one of my close friends. He was like, you don't know anything. I was like, I use it, and I'll be an expert in six months of it. Wait. Give me six months. And, like, what is this? That's an amazing attitude to have about anything. It's like, yeah, of course. I I don't know anything. And, like, give me six months. I could be pretty, like, I could be pretty much an expert at anything. If you give months of obsession.

And you were, like, no. I know nothing about deodorant, but in six months, gonna know everything there is to know about deodorant. And, like, that's all. That's enough for me to go. Like, I can start this. I don't need to, like, think of myself as some expert. I've used that so many times. Is that a Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That was definitely true. I remember who it was too, actually. It was a husband of one of my close friends. He was like, you don't know anything. I was like, I use it, and I'll be an expert in six months of it. Wait. Give me six months. And, like, what is this? That's an amazing attitude to have about anything. It's like, yeah, of course. I I don't know anything. And, like, give me six months. I could be pretty, like, I could be pretty much an expert at anything. If you give months of obsession.

01:15:02

And I think it's true with everyone. Sorry. Go ahead. Your brother had some that were like this because I started writing down these traits. I was like, There's a,

And I think it's true with everyone. Sorry. Go ahead. Your brother had some that were like this because I started writing down these traits. I was like, There's a,

01:15:11

what I call is, like, you know, sometimes you have a speaker system, you turn it up to level ten, and you're like, oh, that's pretty loud. It's bumping. And then you, like, get in someone's car, and it's almost like they got they theirs goes to fourteen. You're like, god, they can't hear anything. I'm deaf out of two. I got in my right ear because Like, why is your shit so loud? But you're like, okay. At least I know what loud is now. I have experienced loud. Even if I don't ever want my speaker to be this intense, Like, I now know the level of intensity that exists because I just thought ten was the max before. And, like, that's what your brother did. Like, we invested in a company together, and they were kind of fucking up. And I was like, dude, can you I've been trying to help these guys. Can you help me help them? Like, he's like, yeah. Great. Let's like, alright. Let's win. And he gets on the call. He does his clap, and he's like, And they're, you know, they're kinda defeated. And he's like, okay. So, well, let's raise all this money. You're trying to raise money. Let's raise the money. Like, let's look at the deck and they, like, put out the deck and it was, like, awful. And he's like, okay. So this is bad.

what I call is, like, you know, sometimes you have a speaker system, you turn it up to level ten, and you're like, oh, that's pretty loud. It's bumping. And then you, like, get in someone's car, and it's almost like they got they theirs goes to fourteen. You're like, god, they can't hear anything. I'm deaf out of two. I got in my right ear because Like, why is your shit so loud? But you're like, okay. At least I know what loud is now. I have experienced loud. Even if I don't ever want my speaker to be this intense, Like, I now know the level of intensity that exists because I just thought ten was the max before. And, like, that's what your brother did. Like, we invested in a company together, and they were kind of fucking up. And I was like, dude, can you I've been trying to help these guys. Can you help me help them? Like, he's like, yeah. Great. Let's like, alright. Let's win. And he gets on the call. He does his clap, and he's like, And they're, you know, they're kinda defeated. And he's like, okay. So, well, let's raise all this money. You're trying to raise money. Let's raise the money. Like, let's look at the deck and they, like, put out the deck and it was, like, awful. And he's like, okay. So this is bad.

01:16:03

But let's fix it. Like, okay. So he he he rattled off. He's like, slide three, and he's like super detailed. Right? It's not just, like, general, Rara. It's like, sorry, three, that chart, it makes me think this. You need to flip the numbers to be, like,

But let's fix it. Like, okay. So he he he rattled off. He's like, slide three, and he's like super detailed. Right? It's not just, like, general, Rara. It's like, sorry, three, that chart, it makes me think this. You need to flip the numbers to be, like,

01:16:15

visualize it this way. Like, this example here on Google images. And he did that for, like, this super detailed thing right away. And I was like, whoa. And then he was like, alright.

visualize it this way. Like, this example here on Google images. And he did that for, like, this super detailed thing right away. And I was like, whoa. And then he was like, alright.

01:16:25

They're like, wow. Thank you so much. This feedback's been so helpful. He's like, great.

They're like, wow. Thank you so much. This feedback's been so helpful. He's like, great.

01:16:29

How long do you think it'll take you to to do this, like, to make these changes? And they're like, I don't know. Hope I'm gonna work on today. Like, you know, I know it's super important. So I'm gonna work on it today. He's Great. It's to noon now. Let's talk at five. And then look, hey. Can you just he's like, send me a standing calendar invite for five PM every day for the next seven days until this deck is amazing. And he's like, let's just keep doing this. Right? Like, you said it was super helpful. Right? So let's just keep doing this. And I was like, I wouldn't have had the balls to tell any company I invested in. Like, let's meet again in three hours. I mean, it wasn't, like, forced. It, like, I can't even now when I'm saying it, it's not coming out the same way where it was, like, Great. Let's do this. And, like, let's just shorten the time span. Right? Like, let's just cut all the fluff. Okay? So you'll make these changes. It'll take a couple hours. Let's meet again. And I was like, I've never done two meetings with the same person in one day. So then I knew I was like, oh, shit. I just found out my knob wasn't even at ten. It was at seven. And, like, this is what twelve feels like. And he'd we did it every day for five days straight until the deck was amazing. We would meet twice a day with these people. By the end of it, they hated us. Like, the deck was so much, like, the whole pitch was, like, the whole business was different, basically, by the end, because, like, usually when a pitch is bad, it's like, actually, the business is kinda bad. And,

How long do you think it'll take you to to do this, like, to make these changes? And they're like, I don't know. Hope I'm gonna work on today. Like, you know, I know it's super important. So I'm gonna work on it today. He's Great. It's to noon now. Let's talk at five. And then look, hey. Can you just he's like, send me a standing calendar invite for five PM every day for the next seven days until this deck is amazing. And he's like, let's just keep doing this. Right? Like, you said it was super helpful. Right? So let's just keep doing this. And I was like, I wouldn't have had the balls to tell any company I invested in. Like, let's meet again in three hours. I mean, it wasn't, like, forced. It, like, I can't even now when I'm saying it, it's not coming out the same way where it was, like, Great. Let's do this. And, like, let's just shorten the time span. Right? Like, let's just cut all the fluff. Okay? So you'll make these changes. It'll take a couple hours. Let's meet again. And I was like, I've never done two meetings with the same person in one day. So then I knew I was like, oh, shit. I just found out my knob wasn't even at ten. It was at seven. And, like, this is what twelve feels like. And he'd we did it every day for five days straight until the deck was amazing. We would meet twice a day with these people. By the end of it, they hated us. Like, the deck was so much, like, the whole pitch was, like, the whole business was different, basically, by the end, because, like, usually when a pitch is bad, it's like, actually, the business is kinda bad. And,

01:17:38

And so once I saw that, I was like, whoa. The Ollie brothers, they function at, like, a different, like, they have a different level twelve that, like,

And so once I saw that, I was like, whoa. The Ollie brothers, they function at, like, a different, like, they have a different level twelve that, like,

01:17:47

I like to see, and I'm sharing this on the pod because there's people out there who the all the people around them, they've never seen, like, what twelve looks like and I think you guys do this. And that's, like, my favorite thing about you guys. That's awesome. I'm glad that that worked out. And, yeah, he look, he has this insane ability to get them most out of people and, like, without

I like to see, and I'm sharing this on the pod because there's people out there who the all the people around them, they've never seen, like, what twelve looks like and I think you guys do this. And that's, like, my favorite thing about you guys. That's awesome. I'm glad that that worked out. And, yeah, he look, he has this insane ability to get them most out of people and, like, without

01:18:06

them feeling, like, it's an ex like, without the without him forcing it upon you. Like, you would do this when I was running native, and he'd be like, how can you make this deal run better than dove and Secret? And I'm like, this guy's an eight billion dollar R and D budget. I've got eighty bucks. I can't do this. And he's like, here are five things that you can do that, like, you know, and he'll just even though the, like, three of those things will be outrageous,

them feeling, like, it's an ex like, without the without him forcing it upon you. Like, you would do this when I was running native, and he'd be like, how can you make this deal run better than dove and Secret? And I'm like, this guy's an eight billion dollar R and D budget. I've got eighty bucks. I can't do this. And he's like, here are five things that you can do that, like, you know, and he'll just even though the, like, three of those things will be outrageous,

01:18:27

he'll be like, going to find a new ingredient that'll work. And I'm like, what am I supposed to, you know, dig and find a new element in the periodic table of the elements? But, like, two of those things will open up my mind in a way to be like, you know what? I'm not trying I'm not focusing on the right problem here, and I gotta stop thinking about retention and customer service. And all this other stuff that matters, but will matter later on more. Right now, this is my problem and forget everything else. And,

he'll be like, going to find a new ingredient that'll work. And I'm like, what am I supposed to, you know, dig and find a new element in the periodic table of the elements? But, like, two of those things will open up my mind in a way to be like, you know what? I'm not trying I'm not focusing on the right problem here, and I gotta stop thinking about retention and customer service. And all this other stuff that matters, but will matter later on more. Right now, this is my problem and forget everything else. And,

01:18:52

it's really humbling to be around that. Like, whenever I'm around him, I'm always more jazzed about business and my business.

it's really humbling to be around that. Like, whenever I'm around him, I'm always more jazzed about business and my business.

01:18:59

Like, you know, I think we've seen enough where we understand what the problems are right away. Like, I'm in some of these board meetings, and I'm like, why are we talking about, like, you know, I was in a board meeting a couple weeks ago. All we did was about fundraising. And I'm like, this is a waste of my time and your time. Either you're gonna get this check or you're not gonna get this check from this one guy. Stop begging him, like, move on. Why don't we jump at the business and see, hey, what's working and what's not? Make a better business than the dollars will follow. Stop wasting time here. And and that's what, like, it's so much of this is experience, and I had no idea that it would be experience. And I think about this all the time, I remember when I was at Nate, when I was at P and G,

Like, you know, I think we've seen enough where we understand what the problems are right away. Like, I'm in some of these board meetings, and I'm like, why are we talking about, like, you know, I was in a board meeting a couple weeks ago. All we did was about fundraising. And I'm like, this is a waste of my time and your time. Either you're gonna get this check or you're not gonna get this check from this one guy. Stop begging him, like, move on. Why don't we jump at the business and see, hey, what's working and what's not? Make a better business than the dollars will follow. Stop wasting time here. And and that's what, like, it's so much of this is experience, and I had no idea that it would be experience. And I think about this all the time, I remember when I was at Nate, when I was at P and G,

01:19:34

my boss who ran deodorants quit. And I was like, oh, he's quitting. I hope he does better. And I didn't realize all of the things that would happen to me. That,

my boss who ran deodorants quit. And I was like, oh, he's quitting. I hope he does better. And I didn't realize all of the things that would happen to me. That,

01:19:43

you know, now we're super clear. Like, he had made all these promises about keeping native independent and amazing. And it, you know, not, not, like, forcing his will upon the company, and he'd protected me from P and G. The next guy never made any of those promises. And so he didn't really feel like he had to do any of those things, and I completely respect that. But I didn't even understand what was gonna happen when the guy told me he was quitting. And now I'm like, okay. When, you know, headcount changes, this is what's gonna happen. A new sheriff is gonna come in into town. He's gonna bring in his own minions to work in the places that he likes and either fall into line or fall out, like, you know,

you know, now we're super clear. Like, he had made all these promises about keeping native independent and amazing. And it, you know, not, not, like, forcing his will upon the company, and he'd protected me from P and G. The next guy never made any of those promises. And so he didn't really feel like he had to do any of those things, and I completely respect that. But I didn't even understand what was gonna happen when the guy told me he was quitting. And now I'm like, okay. When, you know, headcount changes, this is what's gonna happen. A new sheriff is gonna come in into town. He's gonna bring in his own minions to work in the places that he likes and either fall into line or fall out, like, you know,

01:20:16

leave the group.

leave the group.

01:20:17

And, I didn't understand that. And so much of this is experience. And once you go through those go through these things, it's super helpful. And, you know, he's had thought he's had so much more experience than I have, and he's been he's a little bit older than me. And so he's had it earlier than I have, and so he's been this great sounding board for this kind of stuff.

And, I didn't understand that. And so much of this is experience. And once you go through those go through these things, it's super helpful. And, you know, he's had thought he's had so much more experience than I have, and he's been he's a little bit older than me. And so he's had it earlier than I have, and so he's been this great sounding board for this kind of stuff.

01:20:32

You, you tweeted something out. That was great. You were like, here's my

You, you tweeted something out. That was great. You were like, here's my

01:20:36

my project status, like, here's, like, my my my cell sheet I use for all my real estate deals. And it was just, like, status of it. It's, like, you know, I I don't remember what it was exactly, but it was, like, sent,

my project status, like, here's, like, my my my cell sheet I use for all my real estate deals. And it was just, like, status of it. It's, like, you know, I I don't remember what it was exactly, but it was, like, sent,

01:20:48

reply received, waiting for paperwork,

reply received, waiting for paperwork,

01:20:51

follow-up needed. And then there was one that was just like, I'm unsure. I don't know what the hell's going on. Like, I don't know what's

follow-up needed. And then there was one that was just like, I'm unsure. I don't know what the hell's going on. Like, I don't know what's

01:20:57

going on. I don't know where it's at. Like, I don't know why it's not moving. And I was like, that's the status

going on. I don't know where it's at. Like, I don't know why it's not moving. And I was like, that's the status

01:21:03

that I've needed in every project I've ever done. Because my my I always have, you know, a tracker for anything I'm doing. I'm like, alright. It's either, like,

that I've needed in every project I've ever done. Because my my I always have, you know, a tracker for anything I'm doing. I'm like, alright. It's either, like,

01:21:11

I sent it. I'm waiting for reply. I got the reply. Now I need to, like, reply to them. I need to analyze it. I need to sign. I need to wire the money. I need to do whatever. But, like, so often after, like,

I sent it. I'm waiting for reply. I got the reply. Now I need to, like, reply to them. I need to analyze it. I need to sign. I need to wire the money. I need to do whatever. But, like, so often after, like,

01:21:20

twenty four hours. Every whatever status it was in, it's now slipping towards the black hole of I don't know what's holding it's back from just finishing now. Yeah. And I think that's what you guys do really well, which is actually any initiative in any project. It's like, alright. We're trying to, you know, like, get more profitable. It's like, we have this big plan and we're doing it. And then, like, surely, but it's not even surely, like, a month in. It's like, whatever that whole profitability thing, are we doing it, or we not? Like, and it's like, everything has slipped into. I'm unsure what the fuck's going on, and I need this, like, piercing clarity back. And so, hey, I think that was an amazing little tidbit in there of like, I need that I need that status because most things are actually in that that bucket. Yeah. And I need to get them the hell out of that bucket, but I had to name it that to, like, acknowledge what the heck was going on. Yeah. The second is,

twenty four hours. Every whatever status it was in, it's now slipping towards the black hole of I don't know what's holding it's back from just finishing now. Yeah. And I think that's what you guys do really well, which is actually any initiative in any project. It's like, alright. We're trying to, you know, like, get more profitable. It's like, we have this big plan and we're doing it. And then, like, surely, but it's not even surely, like, a month in. It's like, whatever that whole profitability thing, are we doing it, or we not? Like, and it's like, everything has slipped into. I'm unsure what the fuck's going on, and I need this, like, piercing clarity back. And so, hey, I think that was an amazing little tidbit in there of like, I need that I need that status because most things are actually in that that bucket. Yeah. And I need to get them the hell out of that bucket, but I had to name it that to, like, acknowledge what the heck was going on. Yeah. The second is,

01:22:05

another example of the relentlessness thing,

another example of the relentlessness thing,

01:22:08

level twelve, level fourteen on the volume scale. Like, I showed your brother this deal that I was invest I wanted to invest in, and he was like, oh, this is, like, looks great. Let's, like, let's do And I was like, okay. Cool. And he's like, then every day he would text me, like, what's going on with that deal? And I was like, oh, yeah. Like, no change. Like, I emailed the guy. He said he's just said he's finalizing stuff. He'll get back to me by Friday. It's, like, Tuesday. So Wednesday's, like, you know, what's up with the deal? And I'm, like, I think it's still the Friday thing. I haven't emailed him again. Do you think I should? He's, like, Yeah. Let's email him again and tell him we love this and we wanna be involved. I was like, oh, is that like a thing people do? Like, that's just let's kinda fluff him up a page. He's like, yeah. Let's just keep it hot. And I was like, okay. Cool. Then

level twelve, level fourteen on the volume scale. Like, I showed your brother this deal that I was invest I wanted to invest in, and he was like, oh, this is, like, looks great. Let's, like, let's do And I was like, okay. Cool. And he's like, then every day he would text me, like, what's going on with that deal? And I was like, oh, yeah. Like, no change. Like, I emailed the guy. He said he's just said he's finalizing stuff. He'll get back to me by Friday. It's, like, Tuesday. So Wednesday's, like, you know, what's up with the deal? And I'm, like, I think it's still the Friday thing. I haven't emailed him again. Do you think I should? He's, like, Yeah. Let's email him again and tell him we love this and we wanna be involved. I was like, oh, is that like a thing people do? Like, that's just let's kinda fluff him up a page. He's like, yeah. Let's just keep it hot. And I was like, okay. Cool. Then

01:22:45

Wednesday Thursday. He's like, I just feel like we need to do something. He's like, eventually got to the point where he's like, what's the guy's bank? Let's just wire him a million dollars.

Wednesday Thursday. He's like, I just feel like we need to do something. He's like, eventually got to the point where he's like, what's the guy's bank? Let's just wire him a million dollars.

01:22:53

And I was like, we haven't signed anything. He's like, well, once we wire him the money, he's not gonna wire wire it back. So, like, we're gonna secure our allocation in this deal. Just like, let's just send him a million dollars.

And I was like, we haven't signed anything. He's like, well, once we wire him the money, he's not gonna wire wire it back. So, like, we're gonna secure our allocation in this deal. Just like, let's just send him a million dollars.

01:23:03

Yeah. And then he'll kinda be forced to, like, finalize things with us rather than keep us in this, like, limbo stage. And maybe in the end, he'll say, hey, I can't do the full amount. You can only do a quarter of the amount. Because I got all this other investor interest because we know that's what's going on here. And again, I was like, whoa, didn't know that's an option of, like, just wire the guy the money. I guess that kinda makes sense. And, like,

Yeah. And then he'll kinda be forced to, like, finalize things with us rather than keep us in this, like, limbo stage. And maybe in the end, he'll say, hey, I can't do the full amount. You can only do a quarter of the amount. Because I got all this other investor interest because we know that's what's going on here. And again, I was like, whoa, didn't know that's an option of, like, just wire the guy the money. I guess that kinda makes sense. And, like,

01:23:23

these are very, very valuable,

these are very, very valuable,

01:23:26

little tidbits of, like Yeah. To add, like, another example somebody gave us. They were like it was like, what's your open rate on your push notifications for your app? I was like, oh, it's like thirty percent. I think it's pretty good. It's like twenty percent. Think that's really good. Industry average, like, eight. We're at twenty. I was petting myself in the bag. I was feeling happy.

little tidbits of, like Yeah. To add, like, another example somebody gave us. They were like it was like, what's your open rate on your push notifications for your app? I was like, oh, it's like thirty percent. I think it's pretty good. It's like twenty percent. Think that's really good. Industry average, like, eight. We're at twenty. I was petting myself in the bag. I was feeling happy.

01:23:42

And he's like, what do you think the theoretical max is? I was like, What? Is that he's like, what do you think, like, theory? Okay. He's like, it's not literally a hundred. You're not gonna get a hundred percent of people because some people have uninstalled your app and they have notifications off. Like, what do you think is, like,

And he's like, what do you think the theoretical max is? I was like, What? Is that he's like, what do you think, like, theory? Okay. He's like, it's not literally a hundred. You're not gonna get a hundred percent of people because some people have uninstalled your app and they have notifications off. Like, what do you think is, like,

01:23:55

And I was like, I don't know what you mean. He's like, I think I could get fifty percent of people to open a push notification. Let me just, like, see. So he sent a push for his app. And his app was, like, had it was like a social app, like, you post photos. And he just sent a post notification that said,

And I was like, I don't know what you mean. He's like, I think I could get fifty percent of people to open a push notification. Let me just, like, see. So he sent a push for his app. And his app was, like, had it was like a social app, like, you post photos. And he just sent a post notification that said,

01:24:09

your Uber is arriving outside.

your Uber is arriving outside.

01:24:12

Like, please, like, open this to to meet it at the door. Like, whatever. And he, like, said the thing that was, like, your Uber is arriving with your package swipe to, like, open it up. He saw, like, fifty five percent of people open that thing. He's like, okay. That's, like,

Like, please, like, open this to to meet it at the door. Like, whatever. And he, like, said the thing that was, like, your Uber is arriving with your package swipe to, like, open it up. He saw, like, fifty five percent of people open that thing. He's like, okay. That's, like,

01:24:24

the juiciest. I have to know what's in this push notification. He's like, that's now the max. Is, like, anything we wanna use. Now we know. So, actually, our twenty percent is not on a hundred. It's on, like, fifty five percent. Is it and so everything we do is from here. I just remember just thinking Wow. Some people in Silicon Valley are like maniacs. Like, they will push the boundaries in ways that I just really haven't thought of. And every time I saw someone break, like, an invisible wall, that I had just had up, I'm like, oh, fuck. The game is so much more interesting than I realized. And, like, these people play without these walls. Oh, this is awesome. Like, what What else can I do?

the juiciest. I have to know what's in this push notification. He's like, that's now the max. Is, like, anything we wanna use. Now we know. So, actually, our twenty percent is not on a hundred. It's on, like, fifty five percent. Is it and so everything we do is from here. I just remember just thinking Wow. Some people in Silicon Valley are like maniacs. Like, they will push the boundaries in ways that I just really haven't thought of. And every time I saw someone break, like, an invisible wall, that I had just had up, I'm like, oh, fuck. The game is so much more interesting than I realized. And, like, these people play without these walls. Oh, this is awesome. Like, what What else can I do?

01:24:58

It's so refreshing to see that kind of stuff when you're like, I don't know why I thought this wall existed. And now that it doesn't, it makes so much sense that it doesn't exist. Like, just break through. Some it required some genius to break through it. And now that he's done it, it seems so obvious.

It's so refreshing to see that kind of stuff when you're like, I don't know why I thought this wall existed. And now that it doesn't, it makes so much sense that it doesn't exist. Like, just break through. Some it required some genius to break through it. And now that he's done it, it seems so obvious.

01:25:12

Whatever settlement I look at, like, deals roll away or, like, one our investments are, like, you know, raising a new round, we're always, like, we wanna either, buy the business. We I wanna buy the whole business

Whatever settlement I look at, like, deals roll away or, like, one our investments are, like, you know, raising a new round, we're always, like, we wanna either, buy the business. We I wanna buy the whole business

01:25:23

run the business or sell my shares,

run the business or sell my shares,

01:25:25

all of my shares. I want some action. So I can't look, these are the three options. I'll buy the whole thing. I'll run the business. You quit or take all my shares and get out of here, but I don't want nothing. I can't do nothing here. And, it's a lot of fun to, like, it's a lot of fun to be involved and have that action.

all of my shares. I want some action. So I can't look, these are the three options. I'll buy the whole thing. I'll run the business. You quit or take all my shares and get out of here, but I don't want nothing. I can't do nothing here. And, it's a lot of fun to, like, it's a lot of fun to be involved and have that action.

01:25:45

You know, it makes it so that you admire a certain group of people, certainly.

You know, it makes it so that you admire a certain group of people, certainly.

01:25:49

Yeah. Exactly. For better or worse. And, by the way, this is a good example. I admire that Uber push notification. Some people like how unethical and weird And, like,

Yeah. Exactly. For better or worse. And, by the way, this is a good example. I admire that Uber push notification. Some people like how unethical and weird And, like,

01:25:58

you know, why would you do that? And, like, you know, if I told that, and I have done this many times, like, I've told my designer, hey, let's try this. And he looks at me, like, I'm Bernienie Madoff saying, let's take all their money and run away. Like, you know, they think I'm evil when I'm actually just running an to me, this is, like, an awesome experiment. And it's because I admire

you know, why would you do that? And, like, you know, if I told that, and I have done this many times, like, I've told my designer, hey, let's try this. And he looks at me, like, I'm Bernienie Madoff saying, let's take all their money and run away. Like, you know, they think I'm evil when I'm actually just running an to me, this is, like, an awesome experiment. And it's because I admire

01:26:17

people who did some of these different growth hacky things that were, like, just unusual thought experiments that I'm, like, oh, you the way you think is how I wanna think,

people who did some of these different growth hacky things that were, like, just unusual thought experiments that I'm, like, oh, you the way you think is how I wanna think,

01:26:25

but not everybody,

but not everybody,

01:26:27

not everybody wants that, or even thinks it's good. Like, they think it's bad,

not everybody wants that, or even thinks it's good. Like, they think it's bad,

01:26:31

which is, like, But knowing that is also where you figure out your lane, you're like, oh, that's my lane. These things I think are easy and fun and

which is, like, But knowing that is also where you figure out your lane, you're like, oh, that's my lane. These things I think are easy and fun and

01:26:38

good. Other people think are hard, boring, or, like, are, like, evil. And I'm, like, oh, okay. Cool. I I now know what differentiates me versus anybody else.

good. Other people think are hard, boring, or, like, are, like, evil. And I'm, like, oh, okay. Cool. I I now know what differentiates me versus anybody else.

01:26:48

There was this one great story at, when I was a native, we had bought we had these,

There was this one great story at, when I was a native, we had bought we had these,

01:26:53

end caps for Target, like, basically, like, shelving that was gonna sit at the end of a an aisle. And they come in filled with all the deodorant. Like, you know, we ship them, and all they have to do is take the box off and it's filled. And, so we sent them to Target, and,

end caps for Target, like, basically, like, shelving that was gonna sit at the end of a an aisle. And they come in filled with all the deodorant. Like, you know, we ship them, and all they have to do is take the box off and it's filled. And, so we sent them to Target, and,

01:27:06

nobody could find them. Like, you know, there were a bunch of targets that were like, we don't have this. And so we're like, okay, what should we do? And so some PNG person was like, okay, what we have to do is we need to call up the PNG target team in Minneapolis. They're gonna call up Target. Target's gonna call their distribution facility, and then we're gonna go all the way back around, and we'll find out where they are because we've already shipped them. And so,

nobody could find them. Like, you know, there were a bunch of targets that were like, we don't have this. And so we're like, okay, what should we do? And so some PNG person was like, okay, what we have to do is we need to call up the PNG target team in Minneapolis. They're gonna call up Target. Target's gonna call their distribution facility, and then we're gonna go all the way back around, and we'll find out where they are because we've already shipped them. And so,

01:27:27

someone on our team was like, this doesn't make any sense. This is fifteen phone calls. This is what you guys ordinarily do, and they're like, this is the only way to do it. So we googled Target distribution facility in, like, New England,

someone on our team was like, this doesn't make any sense. This is fifteen phone calls. This is what you guys ordinarily do, and they're like, this is the only way to do it. So we googled Target distribution facility in, like, New England,

01:27:38

found their phone number, randomly cold called them, and we're like, Hey, we work in native.

found their phone number, randomly cold called them, and we're like, Hey, we work in native.

01:27:42

I think you've got, a bunch of these end caps. A bunch of stores don't have it. We ship them to you. Do you know where they are? And they're like, look, give us twenty minutes to look in the facility. Call this back and they're like, yeah, we got, we're gonna ship them out in the next truck. And that's how we solve the problem. And, like, you know, to to the P and G, is that it never occurred to directly call the facility, and to Google for that number, they're like, we have to make fifteen phone calls and play secretary on the way back. And, like, you know, their their mind was blown. And for us, we're like, this is the most obvious to do, call the person where the problem lies, and,

I think you've got, a bunch of these end caps. A bunch of stores don't have it. We ship them to you. Do you know where they are? And they're like, look, give us twenty minutes to look in the facility. Call this back and they're like, yeah, we got, we're gonna ship them out in the next truck. And that's how we solve the problem. And, like, you know, to to the P and G, is that it never occurred to directly call the facility, and to Google for that number, they're like, we have to make fifteen phone calls and play secretary on the way back. And, like, you know, their their mind was blown. And for us, we're like, this is the most obvious to do, call the person where the problem lies, and,

01:28:13

it's it's it's crazy to see where those walls are, and it's so amazing to break through them and be, like, This is the way things should be done moving forward.

it's it's it's crazy to see where those walls are, and it's so amazing to break through them and be, like, This is the way things should be done moving forward.

01:28:20

Can I give you one of those as well when I was when we got, like, Twitch, Twitch is an Amazon owned company? So I've had, like, the Twitch bureaucracy plus the Amazon bureaucracy. Like, there's layers, you know, and and it wasn't all bad, but there was certain things you'd run into. It's like this pocket. It's like Oh, no. I'm stuck in molasses. What is that? Where did I step that, like, got me stuck? And one of them was for a period of time, I believe, there was something with the performance marketing where it's like so how much are we spending on, like, you know, getting, like, installs? And they're like, you know, this amount, I'm like, cool. Like, what's the cost? Like, Well, we don't really have the tracking. I'm like, we don't tracking. That's, like, you know, the basic, they're like, well, we don't wanna install the Facebook Pixel

Can I give you one of those as well when I was when we got, like, Twitch, Twitch is an Amazon owned company? So I've had, like, the Twitch bureaucracy plus the Amazon bureaucracy. Like, there's layers, you know, and and it wasn't all bad, but there was certain things you'd run into. It's like this pocket. It's like Oh, no. I'm stuck in molasses. What is that? Where did I step that, like, got me stuck? And one of them was for a period of time, I believe, there was something with the performance marketing where it's like so how much are we spending on, like, you know, getting, like, installs? And they're like, you know, this amount, I'm like, cool. Like, what's the cost? Like, Well, we don't really have the tracking. I'm like, we don't tracking. That's, like, you know, the basic, they're like, well, we don't wanna install the Facebook Pixel

01:28:56

because Amazon doesn't really necessarily want. Like, we have to get approval before Facebook because when Facebook pixels in your app, they have your data. They're kind of a competitor to Twitch and to Amazon. So, like, know, there's some sensitivity you have to get that done. Like, so we just spent we don't know any we don't know the we don't have the pixel installed. Like, you I mean, you know, you could run an ad without the pixel. And, like, you know, that's right. Yeah. I was like, how long is it? Like, yeah, it's been on Legal's desk for, like, a year. And I was like, oh, my god. And so I was like, oh, wow. So I was like, we can't and so my job was

because Amazon doesn't really necessarily want. Like, we have to get approval before Facebook because when Facebook pixels in your app, they have your data. They're kind of a competitor to Twitch and to Amazon. So, like, know, there's some sensitivity you have to get that done. Like, so we just spent we don't know any we don't know the we don't have the pixel installed. Like, you I mean, you know, you could run an ad without the pixel. And, like, you know, that's right. Yeah. I was like, how long is it? Like, yeah, it's been on Legal's desk for, like, a year. And I was like, oh, my god. And so I was like, oh, wow. So I was like, we can't and so my job was

01:29:24

At that time, I was like, oh, dude, we're getting our ass kicked in Brazil. And, like, nobody in the company is even paying attention. Like, we need to, we need to, like, win in Brazil. And, like, happened? We used to be number one, and we're slipping because, like, mobile gaming took off, and we don't do mobile gaming. So I was like, we need to win. And,

At that time, I was like, oh, dude, we're getting our ass kicked in Brazil. And, like, nobody in the company is even paying attention. Like, we need to, we need to, like, win in Brazil. And, like, happened? We used to be number one, and we're slipping because, like, mobile gaming took off, and we don't do mobile gaming. So I was like, we need to win. And,

01:29:39

And so as we built a scraper first to, like, see how fast the competitors were growing because nobody in the company would do anything unless you had a case for how, like, how big the market was, So I was like, well, look at the competitors. They're like, yeah, but, like, we don't know. And I'm like, alright. We'll we'll build the scraper, which is like, startups do this all the time, but in a big company, it doesn't, like, super super kosher to do that. I was like, alright, whatever. We'll do it till they tell us to stop. And the second thing was I was like, oh, we don't have this pixel till we can't, like, run these ads. So I was talking I just went on a phone call with this guy who was the number one streamer in Brazil that we had just, like, paid a bunch of money to, like, come onto our platform. I was like, how would you get a bunch of people to download our app? If I can't do Facebook, I can't do marketing, like, paid ads.

And so as we built a scraper first to, like, see how fast the competitors were growing because nobody in the company would do anything unless you had a case for how, like, how big the market was, So I was like, well, look at the competitors. They're like, yeah, but, like, we don't know. And I'm like, alright. We'll we'll build the scraper, which is like, startups do this all the time, but in a big company, it doesn't, like, super super kosher to do that. I was like, alright, whatever. We'll do it till they tell us to stop. And the second thing was I was like, oh, we don't have this pixel till we can't, like, run these ads. So I was talking I just went on a phone call with this guy who was the number one streamer in Brazil that we had just, like, paid a bunch of money to, like, come onto our platform. I was like, how would you get a bunch of people to download our app? If I can't do Facebook, I can't do marketing, like, paid ads.

01:30:19

And he was like,

And he was like,

01:30:20

He's like, oh, easy boss. And he's saying this the translator's like, he's saying, it's easy boss. You know, here's what you need to do. He's like, give me ten iPhones. I was like, what? He's like buy me ten iPhones. And I was like, what for? I I, you know, like, I don't know how to do that. He's like, I'm gonna give away iPhones. IPhone's like gold bars in Brazil. If I just say I'm giving away on my tuition, everybody download Twitch.

He's like, oh, easy boss. And he's saying this the translator's like, he's saying, it's easy boss. You know, here's what you need to do. He's like, give me ten iPhones. I was like, what? He's like buy me ten iPhones. And I was like, what for? I I, you know, like, I don't know how to do that. He's like, I'm gonna give away iPhones. IPhone's like gold bars in Brazil. If I just say I'm giving away on my tuition, everybody download Twitch.

01:30:41

And, you know, sure enough, I get the I just, like, kinda, like, bootleg away to get the guy gift cards so he could buy iPhones.

And, you know, sure enough, I get the I just, like, kinda, like, bootleg away to get the guy gift cards so he could buy iPhones.

01:30:48

And, he buys ten iPhones. He does a streamer. He's like, I'm giving my iPhone. He's like, I'm not giving away the first one until we have a, like, we have ten thousand people watching my stream. Go share this text your cousin, text your mom, tell them to get on this. I'm not giving it away until then. And then, and he drum up he had brought he, like, he was the number one streamer on Twitch that day. He brought in himself, like, hundreds of thousands of downloads. Like, the biggest download spike that we had had just by giving away, like, you know, we ended up giving away, like, five iPhones as, like, so for five grand, basically,

And, he buys ten iPhones. He does a streamer. He's like, I'm giving my iPhone. He's like, I'm not giving away the first one until we have a, like, we have ten thousand people watching my stream. Go share this text your cousin, text your mom, tell them to get on this. I'm not giving it away until then. And then, and he drum up he had brought he, like, he was the number one streamer on Twitch that day. He brought in himself, like, hundreds of thousands of downloads. Like, the biggest download spike that we had had just by giving away, like, you know, we ended up giving away, like, five iPhones as, like, so for five grand, basically,

01:31:17

we did, like, more install in a proven way because they were all coming directly off his link to his channel.

we did, like, more install in a proven way because they were all coming directly off his link to his channel.

01:31:23

And I was like, and people,

And I was like, and people,

01:31:25

and that's when I knew, like, Twitch might not be the place because, like, I told this story, and I'm like, I feel like I slayed the dragon, and I'm dragging this carcass into the boardroom.

and that's when I knew, like, Twitch might not be the place because, like, I told this story, and I'm like, I feel like I slayed the dragon, and I'm dragging this carcass into the boardroom.

01:31:34

Like, in the ninth floor, the top floor, the the mega boardroom are all the exact set. I feel like I'm dragging this carcass in being like, you know, are you not entertained

Like, in the ninth floor, the top floor, the the mega boardroom are all the exact set. I feel like I'm dragging this carcass in being like, you know, are you not entertained

01:31:43

you know, and, people were like, oh, like, you know, that's interesting.

you know, and, people were like, oh, like, you know, that's interesting.

01:31:46

And they just sort of moved on. And I was like, wait.

And they just sort of moved on. And I was like, wait.

01:31:50

We just discovered this, like, incredible growth hack to, like, get a bunch of downloads. If we did this thing out of the ordinary, like, you know, can we get a little love here? And, when I got no love, I was like, okay.

We just discovered this, like, incredible growth hack to, like, get a bunch of downloads. If we did this thing out of the ordinary, like, you know, can we get a little love here? And, when I got no love, I was like, okay.

01:32:01

This is not the place for me because if this was my company and somebody did this, I'd be like, look, I don't know if this was good strategy long term or a bad one. It's really irrelevant.

This is not the place for me because if this was my company and somebody did this, I'd be like, look, I don't know if this was good strategy long term or a bad one. It's really irrelevant.

01:32:10

The fact that you did this, we need to tell every team in the company that, like, something like this is possible in your department,

The fact that you did this, we need to tell every team in the company that, like, something like this is possible in your department,

01:32:16

like, don't get stuck in the molasses, like, find something and try something that works. And, like, these guys have tried nine things that failed. Tell tell them tell them about all nine and then tell them the one that worked And, like, I would have gone on a roadshow for that. And that's how I knew, like, okay, what type of company do I need to be at is one that, like, celebrates that type of thing?

like, don't get stuck in the molasses, like, find something and try something that works. And, like, these guys have tried nine things that failed. Tell tell them tell them about all nine and then tell them the one that worked And, like, I would have gone on a roadshow for that. And that's how I knew, like, okay, what type of company do I need to be at is one that, like, celebrates that type of thing?

01:32:34

That's a pretty amazing story. And, like, really amazing that this guy who's in Brazil is, like, I know how to get downloads

That's a pretty amazing story. And, like, really amazing that this guy who's in Brazil is, like, I know how to get downloads

01:32:41

from this street, like, giving away iPhones and people to download it, that's brilliant of him. And brilliant that you found him and, like, harnessed. And we're like, fuck all this red tape, I'm gonna figure it out. That's awesome.

from this street, like, giving away iPhones and people to download it, that's brilliant of him. And brilliant that you found him and, like, harnessed. And we're like, fuck all this red tape, I'm gonna figure it out. That's awesome.

01:32:52

What an external story? Finally, I'm getting finally, I'm getting the love I needed. Yeah. I've been waiting two years to to just get the daddy, I'm proud of you. Son, I'm proud of you moment, but I I got it now. Alright, man. Sorry. I took you so far over the time limit. Thank you for coming on. Yeah. Appreciate it. And thanks so much for having me, like, a chance.

What an external story? Finally, I'm getting finally, I'm getting the love I needed. Yeah. I've been waiting two years to to just get the daddy, I'm proud of you. Son, I'm proud of you moment, but I I got it now. Alright, man. Sorry. I took you so far over the time limit. Thank you for coming on. Yeah. Appreciate it. And thanks so much for having me, like, a chance.

01:33:10

Yeah. Where should people find your Twitter is probably the best spot. Right? Yeah. Twitter. I'm at Moizali.

Yeah. Where should people find your Twitter is probably the best spot. Right? Yeah. Twitter. I'm at Moizali.

01:33:16

At Moiz Ali. Alright. Perfect. Thanks, man. Perfect. Thanks, Tom. Talk to you soon.

At Moiz Ali. Alright. Perfect. Thanks, man. Perfect. Thanks, Tom. Talk to you soon.

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