00:00

I got four words for you. Self funded cash cow. That is what today's guest Jason Fried has built his company thirty seven signals is awesome. You've probably heard of it. I heard of it because I read his book. This is rework. I read this thing like a decade ago. I still have so many of these pages folded because they're just it's full of gold. But the best part is he's not just an author. Right? He actually has an entrepreneur who runs his own company. He's done it for, like, twenty five years now. And these guys, they say next to nothing about their numbers. The only thing they've ever said is we make tens of millions a year in profit.

I got four words for you. Self funded cash cow. That is what today's guest Jason Fried has built his company thirty seven signals is awesome. You've probably heard of it. I heard of it because I read his book. This is rework. I read this thing like a decade ago. I still have so many of these pages folded because they're just it's full of gold. But the best part is he's not just an author. Right? He actually has an entrepreneur who runs his own company. He's done it for, like, twenty five years now. And these guys, they say next to nothing about their numbers. The only thing they've ever said is we make tens of millions a year in profit.

00:31

But I do think this is actually kind of a juggernaut. This is a juggernaut of a business. Jason Lemkin, a great investor once said that the two greatest self funded cash flow companies he's ever seen are Craigslist and thirty seven signals. And the best part is they do it by kinda like kicking the the traditional playbook to the to the curb. They set no goals.

But I do think this is actually kind of a juggernaut. This is a juggernaut of a business. Jason Lemkin, a great investor once said that the two greatest self funded cash flow companies he's ever seen are Craigslist and thirty seven signals. And the best part is they do it by kinda like kicking the the traditional playbook to the to the curb. They set no goals.

00:50

They work four days a week in the summers. They spend next to nothing on marketing. And so I wanted to ask Jason three questions. The first is

They work four days a week in the summers. They spend next to nothing on marketing. And so I wanted to ask Jason three questions. The first is

00:57

How did you build this low stress cash flow company? Right? You are the cash flow king. How did you do it? That's the first part. Then we asked him, What was it like being face to face with Jeff Bezos negotiating a deal? He got to know Jeff Bezos twenty years ago. I wanted to know what is it like to be in the room with him. And lastly,

How did you build this low stress cash flow company? Right? You are the cash flow king. How did you do it? That's the first part. Then we asked him, What was it like being face to face with Jeff Bezos negotiating a deal? He got to know Jeff Bezos twenty years ago. I wanted to know what is it like to be in the room with him. And lastly,

01:14

He's got this skill where he's able to generate massive interest in his products pre-launch, and I wanted to steal that superpower. How do you do this? Before you've even launched a product, he uses these founder letters to blow up his products. And so we talked about it. We got him to sort of explain bit by bit how he does those, how he writes those things. Alright. No more teasing. Enjoy this episode. With Jason Fried.

He's got this skill where he's able to generate massive interest in his products pre-launch, and I wanted to steal that superpower. How do you do this? Before you've even launched a product, he uses these founder letters to blow up his products. And so we talked about it. We got him to sort of explain bit by bit how he does those, how he writes those things. Alright. No more teasing. Enjoy this episode. With Jason Fried.

01:42

We were doing research,

We were doing research,

01:43

before this podcast,

before this podcast,

01:45

and I've looked into a bunch. I I'm inspired by you. Is it weird?

and I've looked into a bunch. I I'm inspired by you. Is it weird?

01:50

That we know that you spent something like thirty million dollars on homes in the past, like, two years. You know, you started, like, a tech company not looking to get into this and now, like, your home purchases are on the blogs. It's fucking embarrassing. And frankly, I I tried to hide them. I tried to do all the things like double LLC and the whole thing.

That we know that you spent something like thirty million dollars on homes in the past, like, two years. You know, you started, like, a tech company not looking to get into this and now, like, your home purchases are on the blogs. It's fucking embarrassing. And frankly, I I tried to hide them. I tried to do all the things like double LLC and the whole thing.

02:10

I I like architecture. I like houses. I like land. It's just that's, like, really the thing I really found myself liking a lot. And unfortunately, it's very hard to just How do they find it? How do they know? Because they're, like, Jason Fried bought this house, and me and Sam were supposed to be prepping for this spot. And we spent, like, twenty minutes clicking through these photos, being like, this house is sick.

I I like architecture. I like houses. I like land. It's just that's, like, really the thing I really found myself liking a lot. And unfortunately, it's very hard to just How do they find it? How do they know? Because they're, like, Jason Fried bought this house, and me and Sam were supposed to be prepping for this spot. And we spent, like, twenty minutes clicking through these photos, being like, this house is sick.

02:29

How do they actually find it?

How do they actually find it?

02:31

I don't know. My guess is so, like, technically, it's

I don't know. My guess is so, like, technically, it's

02:34

it's hidden in a sense, but I think that all they gotta do is probably ask, like, you know, a real estate agent And, you know, you you kinda have NDAs, but, you know, someone knows some or, like, the electrician or the cable company, someone hangs out and finds out, or they look in the mailbox and see that, you know, There's a million ways, unfortunately. Well, what's cool about you and what I honestly admire, we started off talking about how big the business is. But the reality is what I admire is Some guys are into to beautiful eyes. Some guys are into butts. Me and Sam on this podcast, we're we are into people who play the who define their own game and then play it. And that's the one thing I think you do really, really well. And you've gone viral many times by putting out there some of your philosophies on how you approach I wanna do is I wanna kinda read you a quote. I want you to react to it. I want you to explain and unpacked a little bit for each one of these. And we can go fast. So the first one is your anti long term planning. You don't you don't do long term plans, and here's the quote I like to go. Long term planning is a fantasy.

it's hidden in a sense, but I think that all they gotta do is probably ask, like, you know, a real estate agent And, you know, you you kinda have NDAs, but, you know, someone knows some or, like, the electrician or the cable company, someone hangs out and finds out, or they look in the mailbox and see that, you know, There's a million ways, unfortunately. Well, what's cool about you and what I honestly admire, we started off talking about how big the business is. But the reality is what I admire is Some guys are into to beautiful eyes. Some guys are into butts. Me and Sam on this podcast, we're we are into people who play the who define their own game and then play it. And that's the one thing I think you do really, really well. And you've gone viral many times by putting out there some of your philosophies on how you approach I wanna do is I wanna kinda read you a quote. I want you to react to it. I want you to explain and unpacked a little bit for each one of these. And we can go fast. So the first one is your anti long term planning. You don't you don't do long term plans, and here's the quote I like to go. Long term planning is a fantasy.

03:29

I don't plan long term because I wanna do what I think, not what I thought.

I don't plan long term because I wanna do what I think, not what I thought.

03:34

That's right. Explain that one. Yeah. Long term planning is is is what you thought. And, like, doing figuring out as you go is what you think. And I don't like the idea of having a thought six months ago, eight months ago or twelve months ago and feeling like I have to follow that win because I happen to have it and happen to write it or wrote it down. I don't I don't get that.

That's right. Explain that one. Yeah. Long term planning is is is what you thought. And, like, doing figuring out as you go is what you think. And I don't like the idea of having a thought six months ago, eight months ago or twelve months ago and feeling like I have to follow that win because I happen to have it and happen to write it or wrote it down. I don't I don't get that.

03:53

I know a lot of people think there's a lot of certainty or comfort in, like, setting out a plan and, like, you know, but really it's that plan is then just based on a moment in time. And And then people are like, well, you can adjust. Well, if you're gonna adjust, just adjust. Just just don't even do the first plan.

I know a lot of people think there's a lot of certainty or comfort in, like, setting out a plan and, like, you know, but really it's that plan is then just based on a moment in time. And And then people are like, well, you can adjust. Well, if you're gonna adjust, just adjust. Just just don't even do the first plan.

04:09

So my feeling just make it up as you go. Frankly, we we think about things six months or, sorry, six weeks at a time

So my feeling just make it up as you go. Frankly, we we think about things six months or, sorry, six weeks at a time

04:14

and, and go from there and adjust all the time. And that's fine. We've always done it that way. And I feel most comfortable, frankly, just paying attention to reality in the moment and making calls along along the way. You also wrote that, you've never had a goal. So you said, you have this whole blog post that you don't like goals. I I think you might be you maybe were quoting another person So the reason that most of us aren't happy most of the time is that we set goals, not for the person we're going to be when we reach them,

and, and go from there and adjust all the time. And that's fine. We've always done it that way. And I feel most comfortable, frankly, just paying attention to reality in the moment and making calls along along the way. You also wrote that, you've never had a goal. So you said, you have this whole blog post that you don't like goals. I I think you might be you maybe were quoting another person So the reason that most of us aren't happy most of the time is that we set goals, not for the person we're going to be when we reach them,

04:42

we set our goals for the person we are when we set them. And I don't think you explicitly said that the company doesn't set goals. But you sort of implied it. Is that the case? Yeah. By the way, that quote is from a fellow named Jim Kudal, who is a good friend of ours and runs field notes, which a lot of people know. You know, our goal, our only goal is to be profitable on a given year. We've been profitable every year for twenty five years. That's the only thing we look at is we wanna make sure that we make more money than we spend. Otherwise, we don't really set goals or have expectations other than just to do our best work. I'm not a fan of thinking that you're gonna do better work. If you set a goal. I think you should do your best work all the time as best you can.

we set our goals for the person we are when we set them. And I don't think you explicitly said that the company doesn't set goals. But you sort of implied it. Is that the case? Yeah. By the way, that quote is from a fellow named Jim Kudal, who is a good friend of ours and runs field notes, which a lot of people know. You know, our goal, our only goal is to be profitable on a given year. We've been profitable every year for twenty five years. That's the only thing we look at is we wanna make sure that we make more money than we spend. Otherwise, we don't really set goals or have expectations other than just to do our best work. I'm not a fan of thinking that you're gonna do better work. If you set a goal. I think you should do your best work all the time as best you can.

05:21

And again, let the chips fall where they may. You know, the way I think about this that I think helps people understand this more is if you wanna go out for a run and run a six minute mile and you gotta run a six minute mile and you end up running a six zero four,

And again, let the chips fall where they may. You know, the way I think about this that I think helps people understand this more is if you wanna go out for a run and run a six minute mile and you gotta run a six minute mile and you end up running a six zero four,

05:34

you're you're, like, didn't hit the goal and you're maybe upset. Like, I almost got it, whatever. Now some people might say you're gonna work harder next time.

you're you're, like, didn't hit the goal and you're maybe upset. Like, I almost got it, whatever. Now some people might say you're gonna work harder next time.

05:42

But what if the goal was six zero five instead? Like, it's five seconds difference and you would have beat it and you would have felt differently. It's like five seconds. Does that matter? Like, to me, the right question is, like, was it worth it? Did I enjoy the run? Did I have a good time? Do I feel good now? Don't wanna do that again? Am I injured? No. Great. Did I get some fresh air? Yes? Like, if you ask different questions,

But what if the goal was six zero five instead? Like, it's five seconds difference and you would have beat it and you would have felt differently. It's like five seconds. Does that matter? Like, to me, the right question is, like, was it worth it? Did I enjoy the run? Did I have a good time? Do I feel good now? Don't wanna do that again? Am I injured? No. Great. Did I get some fresh air? Yes? Like, if you ask different questions,

06:03

then you're not so obsessed with, like, this this point this this goal line that you set up that is really arbitrary and made up to begin with. So I've never believed in goals. I just kinda do the best I can and and see where it goes. So I, like, I I I want to agree with you, because I I prefer I think I would be happier if that were the case. But there is, like, some logistical pushback of, like, well, you guys launched Tay dot com a few years ago, and you,

then you're not so obsessed with, like, this this point this this goal line that you set up that is really arbitrary and made up to begin with. So I've never believed in goals. I just kinda do the best I can and and see where it goes. So I, like, I I I want to agree with you, because I I prefer I think I would be happier if that were the case. But there is, like, some logistical pushback of, like, well, you guys launched Tay dot com a few years ago, and you,

06:27

you have to plan,

you have to plan,

06:28

like how much to allocate towards that project. Otherwise, potentially you could be unprofitable. So how do you justify, like,

like how much to allocate towards that project. Otherwise, potentially you could be unprofitable. So how do you justify, like,

06:35

looking at, like, well, this needs to this needs to hit this metric or Let let's ask the question slightly differently.

looking at, like, well, this needs to this needs to hit this metric or Let let's ask the question slightly differently.

06:40

I come to work. You're the CEO. You're like, no plans. No goals. I'm like, alright. So then what are we doing here? How do we do it? What is the answer? Well, this is gonna sound strange, but we don't think that way, we look at the big pile

I come to work. You're the CEO. You're like, no plans. No goals. I'm like, alright. So then what are we doing here? How do we do it? What is the answer? Well, this is gonna sound strange, but we don't think that way, we look at the big pile

06:53

and go, like, at the end of the year, do we have more money than we spent?

and go, like, at the end of the year, do we have more money than we spent?

06:57

And is it because of this product or that product or this endeavor or that endeavor or this cost savings or that expense? Like, I don't really care. Frankly, like, to me, it's just one big pile. It's a range. It's a feeling. Like, we feel we actually it's more of an aesthetic for us. David and I talk about the aesthetic of running a high margin business. It feels right to do it that way. I don't wanna run a business where I'm nervous all the time. And you're nervous when you're looking at one or two points here and there. And, like, shit,

And is it because of this product or that product or this endeavor or that endeavor or this cost savings or that expense? Like, I don't really care. Frankly, like, to me, it's just one big pile. It's a range. It's a feeling. Like, we feel we actually it's more of an aesthetic for us. David and I talk about the aesthetic of running a high margin business. It feels right to do it that way. I don't wanna run a business where I'm nervous all the time. And you're nervous when you're looking at one or two points here and there. And, like, shit,

07:27

we're barely breaking even. Like, I don't wanna be in that kind of company. Right. So we keep our costs low.

we're barely breaking even. Like, I don't wanna be in that kind of company. Right. So we keep our costs low.

07:33

We have a huge customer base over a hundred thousand people pay us on a monthly basis for a variety of different products.

We have a huge customer base over a hundred thousand people pay us on a monthly basis for a variety of different products.

07:39

And,

And,

07:40

Given the fact that our costs are low and our revenue is high, and we have a very diverse customer base, things are things can be sloppy in a good way. I feel like it's a comforting way. It's not like a reckless way. We are careful about costs. We think about costs.

Given the fact that our costs are low and our revenue is high, and we have a very diverse customer base, things are things can be sloppy in a good way. I feel like it's a comforting way. It's not like a reckless way. We are careful about costs. We think about costs.

07:55

A lot, actually, but we don't worry too much about points.

A lot, actually, but we don't worry too much about points.

08:00

You know, that's just not how we how we look at things. And so this approach where you're like, we

You know, that's just not how we how we look at things. And so this approach where you're like, we

08:05

I I let me let me give you a what I see from the outside. You tell me which parts of this are are me fantasizing versus reality. So the way I view you guys is you kinda think about what needs to exist in the world. So for example, you're like, There needs to be email that doesn't stress you out or software that you pay for once and not every single month for the rest your life that you and every additional employee you have, it costs more and more more. Right? Like, it's sort of, like, first, there's a point of view on what needs to change in the world or the way you want things to be or what what you wish existed,

I I let me let me give you a what I see from the outside. You tell me which parts of this are are me fantasizing versus reality. So the way I view you guys is you kinda think about what needs to exist in the world. So for example, you're like, There needs to be email that doesn't stress you out or software that you pay for once and not every single month for the rest your life that you and every additional employee you have, it costs more and more more. Right? Like, it's sort of, like, first, there's a point of view on what needs to change in the world or the way you want things to be or what what you wish existed,

08:37

then you're, like, probably some second check, which is, like, can we build it? Are we the right team to build this? Do we have,

then you're, like, probably some second check, which is, like, can we build it? Are we the right team to build this? Do we have,

08:43

an approach that we think might work. And then you budget this, like, six week sprint, where you're like, let's try to make a version of that that we like, and then we'll iterate from there. And we're ruling to tolerate, like, six weeks of attempt at this

an approach that we think might work. And then you budget this, like, six week sprint, where you're like, let's try to make a version of that that we like, and then we'll iterate from there. And we're ruling to tolerate, like, six weeks of attempt at this

08:56

to

to

08:57

get to the next milestone of belief. Like, we'll give it, you know, leap of faith to six weeks and then after that, we reevaluate and and decide what what to do from there. Is that correct? What parts of that are incorrect? Partially.

get to the next milestone of belief. Like, we'll give it, you know, leap of faith to six weeks and then after that, we reevaluate and and decide what what to do from there. Is that correct? What parts of that are incorrect? Partially.

09:08

So we will spend a lot more time than six weeks on exploring an initial idea.

So we will spend a lot more time than six weeks on exploring an initial idea.

09:12

So, for example, when we're gonna make a brand new product, we might spend six months wandering

So, for example, when we're gonna make a brand new product, we might spend six months wandering

09:18

around an idea and seeing where it ends up. And at some point, Where, again, I don't know. It's just a feeling. Like, we spent enough time on this. We're feeling good about this. This is feeling better and better and better as we go. Let's do this. Then you commit to doing it, then you do it six weeks at a time.

around an idea and seeing where it ends up. And at some point, Where, again, I don't know. It's just a feeling. Like, we spent enough time on this. We're feeling good about this. This is feeling better and better and better as we go. Let's do this. Then you commit to doing it, then you do it six weeks at a time.

09:34

Or you get into something and you wander for a while and you go, I'm just bored or, like, don't know where else to go or

Or you get into something and you wander for a while and you go, I'm just bored or, like, don't know where else to go or

09:41

this isn't really

this isn't really

09:43

this doesn't seem interesting

this doesn't seem interesting

09:44

and you stop,

and you stop,

09:46

and you just give up. Frankly, you just give up, which is something I think more people ought to do. Alright. I want a quick break to tell you about HubSpot, and this one's easy because I'm gonna show you an example of how I'm doing this my company. When I say, I, I mean, not my team. I mean, I'm the one who actually made it. So I've got this company called Hampton. You could check it out join Hampton dot com. It's a community for founders. And one of the ways that we've grown is we've created these surveys, but we'll ask our members certain questions that a lot of people A lot of times people are afraid to ask. So things like what their net worth is, how their assets are allocated, all these, like, interesting questions, and then we'll put it in a survey I went and made a landing page. So you can check it out at join hampton dot com slash wealth. You can actually see the landing page that I made And the hard part with this is with Hampton, we are appealing to a sort of a a higher end customer, sort of like like a Louis Vuitton or a Ferrari. So I needed the landing page to look a very particular way. HubSpot has templates. That's what we use. We just change the colors a little bit to match our brand. Very easy. They have this drag and drop version of their landing page builder, and it's super simple. I'm not technical, and I'm the one who actually made it. And once it's made, I then shared it on social media, and we have thousands of people see it and thousands of people who gave us their information, and I can then see over the next handful of weeks, this is how much revenue came in from this wealth survey that I did. This is where the revenue came from. So it came from Twitter. It came from LinkedIn. Whatever it came from, I can actually go and look at it. And I can say, oh, well, that worked. That didn't work. Do more of that. Do less of that. And if you're interested in making landing pages like this, I highly suggest it. Look, I'm actually doing it, but you could check it out. Go to the link in the description of YouTube and get started. Alright. Now back to MFM. Pam, do you do this wandering thing too? Like, I I've seen your process. I feel like it's kinda similar. Yeah.

and you just give up. Frankly, you just give up, which is something I think more people ought to do. Alright. I want a quick break to tell you about HubSpot, and this one's easy because I'm gonna show you an example of how I'm doing this my company. When I say, I, I mean, not my team. I mean, I'm the one who actually made it. So I've got this company called Hampton. You could check it out join Hampton dot com. It's a community for founders. And one of the ways that we've grown is we've created these surveys, but we'll ask our members certain questions that a lot of people A lot of times people are afraid to ask. So things like what their net worth is, how their assets are allocated, all these, like, interesting questions, and then we'll put it in a survey I went and made a landing page. So you can check it out at join hampton dot com slash wealth. You can actually see the landing page that I made And the hard part with this is with Hampton, we are appealing to a sort of a a higher end customer, sort of like like a Louis Vuitton or a Ferrari. So I needed the landing page to look a very particular way. HubSpot has templates. That's what we use. We just change the colors a little bit to match our brand. Very easy. They have this drag and drop version of their landing page builder, and it's super simple. I'm not technical, and I'm the one who actually made it. And once it's made, I then shared it on social media, and we have thousands of people see it and thousands of people who gave us their information, and I can then see over the next handful of weeks, this is how much revenue came in from this wealth survey that I did. This is where the revenue came from. So it came from Twitter. It came from LinkedIn. Whatever it came from, I can actually go and look at it. And I can say, oh, well, that worked. That didn't work. Do more of that. Do less of that. And if you're interested in making landing pages like this, I highly suggest it. Look, I'm actually doing it, but you could check it out. Go to the link in the description of YouTube and get started. Alright. Now back to MFM. Pam, do you do this wandering thing too? Like, I I've seen your process. I feel like it's kinda similar. Yeah.

11:27

It's, you know, I don't wanna sound,

It's, you know, I don't wanna sound,

11:30

like, I'm stiff in my own farts, but it's a little bit of an art where, like, it's I I feel like an artist a little bit where I I'm exploring a concept, and then I it takes six months for some inspiration.

like, I'm stiff in my own farts, but it's a little bit of an art where, like, it's I I feel like an artist a little bit where I I'm exploring a concept, and then I it takes six months for some inspiration.

11:41

Like, I I I feel inspiration.

Like, I I I feel inspiration.

11:44

And then I have to wander to, like, like, kinda hone in on the painting and the concept a little bit. And it's sorta, like, one of those things where you a lot of showers and, like, you get different ideas or you go for a walk and you get a different idea for, like, six months until it's like, alright. I think I've honed in this concept. Let's move forward. Is that what you do? Yeah. Yeah. That's that's really a big part of it. It does feel like an art and not to again, not to get stuffy about it. Like,

And then I have to wander to, like, like, kinda hone in on the painting and the concept a little bit. And it's sorta, like, one of those things where you a lot of showers and, like, you get different ideas or you go for a walk and you get a different idea for, like, six months until it's like, alright. I think I've honed in this concept. Let's move forward. Is that what you do? Yeah. Yeah. That's that's really a big part of it. It does feel like an art and not to again, not to get stuffy about it. Like,

12:07

I'm not an artist. I I I not but, like, we just we we we explore and we leave room to explore and the margins allow us to explore and being profitable allows us to explore not having

I'm not an artist. I I I not but, like, we just we we we explore and we leave room to explore and the margins allow us to explore and being profitable allows us to explore not having

12:17

investors allows us to explore, not having a board allows us to, like, all these things allow us. This independence allows us to do the things we wanna do the way we wanna do them. But at some point,

investors allows us to explore, not having a board allows us to, like, all these things allow us. This independence allows us to do the things we wanna do the way we wanna do them. But at some point,

12:27

you know, you you also don't wanna be,

you know, you you also don't wanna be,

12:30

you know, reckless with with money and time and people. At some point, you go, this just isn't going anywhere. Let's stop. Or

you know, reckless with with money and time and people. At some point, you go, this just isn't going anywhere. Let's stop. Or

12:37

so we would really do take our internal sort of motivation temperature. A lot of it is wrap wrapped around motivation. Like, are we,

so we would really do take our internal sort of motivation temperature. A lot of it is wrap wrapped around motivation. Like, are we,

12:44

like, pumped about this? Does this feel good? If so, let's keep doing this. And then and then you finally kinda come into something. So, for example, with Hey briefly,

like, pumped about this? Does this feel good? If so, let's keep doing this. And then and then you finally kinda come into something. So, for example, with Hey briefly,

12:52

Hey didn't start out as an email service. It started out actually as a rethink of HighRise, which is our CRM product, which we stopped developing years ago. We still offer to existing customers, but we don't sell it anymore. But we had this thought, like, what if we explore that again?

Hey didn't start out as an email service. It started out actually as a rethink of HighRise, which is our CRM product, which we stopped developing years ago. We still offer to existing customers, but we don't sell it anymore. But we had this thought, like, what if we explore that again?

13:06

So we began to explore that.

So we began to explore that.

13:08

And through that exploration, we realized what we were doing was building this sort of email system that we wanted for all of our emails, not just like

And through that exploration, we realized what we were doing was building this sort of email system that we wanted for all of our emails, not just like

13:17

business

business

13:18

communication emails, but like all of them. And so we go,

communication emails, but like all of them. And so we go,

13:21

You know, that's interesting. This is actually, like, an email thing. I remember bringing this idea to David, I had been exploring with one of my designers for a while, and He's like, yeah, that that is interesting. Like, let's see where this goes. And so we started to kind of hooking it up. So we we did the UI first. This is what we always do. And showed a bunch of UI, and we started making it work. And, like, this there's something here, and you feel this pull of something here, there's a certain gravity to these ideas.

You know, that's interesting. This is actually, like, an email thing. I remember bringing this idea to David, I had been exploring with one of my designers for a while, and He's like, yeah, that that is interesting. Like, let's see where this goes. And so we started to kind of hooking it up. So we we did the UI first. This is what we always do. And showed a bunch of UI, and we started making it work. And, like, this there's something here, and you feel this pull of something here, there's a certain gravity to these ideas.

13:45

And it pulls you towards it and you keep going for a while. And then at some point, though, you gotta get serious. And that's when you begin to, you know, break this into six week chunks essentially of work or monthly chunks depending on it. But you gotta have some end of these things so you can get on to the next feature and the next feature. Otherwise, you'll spend too much time

And it pulls you towards it and you keep going for a while. And then at some point, though, you gotta get serious. And that's when you begin to, you know, break this into six week chunks essentially of work or monthly chunks depending on it. But you gotta have some end of these things so you can get on to the next feature and the next feature. Otherwise, you'll spend too much time

14:04

trying to perfect just one thing yet a product has to do a lot more than just that. So you kinda have to You you gotta time box these things in a sense. Well,

trying to perfect just one thing yet a product has to do a lot more than just that. So you kinda have to You you gotta time box these things in a sense. Well,

14:13

you said two things that I liked. One, you said one of your superpowers is focus.

you said two things that I liked. One, you said one of your superpowers is focus.

14:18

Sorry. I was saying this about you. And what what you said was

Sorry. I was saying this about you. And what what you said was

14:22

no is just saying no to one thing.

no is just saying no to one thing.

14:25

Yes. It's saying no. To a lot of things.

Yes. It's saying no. To a lot of things.

14:28

As a I really love that. No is just saying no to one thing, but yes, it's saying no to, like, kind of the whole the whole future set of things because you've now taken up your mind sharing, your talent, your hands with with the thing you said yes to. Yeah. No. No is a very precise,

As a I really love that. No is just saying no to one thing, but yes, it's saying no to, like, kind of the whole the whole future set of things because you've now taken up your mind sharing, your talent, your hands with with the thing you said yes to. Yeah. No. No is a very precise,

14:42

you know, precision instrument,

you know, precision instrument,

14:45

because you get to evaluate a thing and say no to it. And they have the whole spectrum of everything else that's possible available to you at that point. So,

because you get to evaluate a thing and say no to it. And they have the whole spectrum of everything else that's possible available to you at that point. So,

14:53

I I think no is a great tool. It's very specific. Yes is a blunt force instrument that kind of damages a lot of things essentially. Now it might be worth it. Because

I I think no is a great tool. It's very specific. Yes is a blunt force instrument that kind of damages a lot of things essentially. Now it might be worth it. Because

15:03

that thing you choose to do might be the thing that you needed to do, but it does

that thing you choose to do might be the thing that you needed to do, but it does

15:08

force you to say no to a bunch of other opportunities. And the longer you spend on that yes,

force you to say no to a bunch of other opportunities. And the longer you spend on that yes,

15:13

the more nos you are throwing off, and you don't even realize it.

the more nos you are throwing off, and you don't even realize it.

15:17

So I do think it's very important to figure out what you're doing and then, you know, why you're doing it and then commit to doing it, and then get it done in a reasonable period of time,

So I do think it's very important to figure out what you're doing and then, you know, why you're doing it and then commit to doing it, and then get it done in a reasonable period of time,

15:27

partially because you don't know if it's gonna be any good or not. I mean, you might

partially because you don't know if it's gonna be any good or not. I mean, you might

15:30

have a feeling, but the market's gonna tell you for sure. So you wanna get out of the market as soon as you can ultimately.

have a feeling, but the market's gonna tell you for sure. So you wanna get out of the market as soon as you can ultimately.

15:36

And then you'll find out, and then you can iterate from there. So that's kind of our general approach to things. And we don't make new products that often. Like, we used to make them a lot. Like, when we first launched, we had basecamp in two thousand four,

And then you'll find out, and then you can iterate from there. So that's kind of our general approach to things. And we don't make new products that often. Like, we used to make them a lot. Like, when we first launched, we had basecamp in two thousand four,

15:46

Backpack 2005, Campfire 2006, Highrise. We were making a new product every year.

Backpack 2005, Campfire 2006, Highrise. We were making a new product every year.

15:53

And then we did a bunch of other things, job boards and a whole bunch of other things. Now we, you know, we'll make a new product

And then we did a bunch of other things, job boards and a whole bunch of other things. Now we, you know, we'll make a new product

15:59

once every handful of years. But, yeah, in general, we don't say yes that often. We do, we we try to get it right. So you mentioned the job board. There's an interesting story here. So Andrew Wilkinson bought the job board. You guys created WeWork remotely because you guys were really far ahead of trend on remote work. As he had, we work remotely as a remote work job board. You sold it to Andrew Wilkit's in friend of the pod. He's probably the most frequent guest on our podcast.

once every handful of years. But, yeah, in general, we don't say yes that often. We do, we we try to get it right. So you mentioned the job board. There's an interesting story here. So Andrew Wilkinson bought the job board. You guys created WeWork remotely because you guys were really far ahead of trend on remote work. As he had, we work remotely as a remote work job board. You sold it to Andrew Wilkit's in friend of the pod. He's probably the most frequent guest on our podcast.

16:23

And

And

16:24

that, I wanna ask you about this because for him, it's, like, He loves this story because it's a great buy. He bought it for really cheap. And then now, I don't know what that thing does, but let's I think it's something, like, five million profit comes off the job board. I think it's four. It's in his annual report. You can kinda dial it down. Okay. So let's say four let's say four million of a year profit

that, I wanna ask you about this because for him, it's, like, He loves this story because it's a great buy. He bought it for really cheap. And then now, I don't know what that thing does, but let's I think it's something, like, five million profit comes off the job board. I think it's four. It's in his annual report. You can kinda dial it down. Okay. So let's say four let's say four million of a year profit

16:42

And I wanted to ask you, like, for you guys, is that a,

And I wanted to ask you, like, for you guys, is that a,

16:46

we wish we had kept it bad sale? Cause it's now a lot more profitable, or is it That was the right thing to do because it cleared us up to do other things. How do you think about that that transaction? Well, it's easy to look back on it and make a different decision now. The reason we sold that at time was because we were selling off a bunch of stuff or consolidating to just kinda go all in on on one thing on base camp essentially. It's kind of around that time.

we wish we had kept it bad sale? Cause it's now a lot more profitable, or is it That was the right thing to do because it cleared us up to do other things. How do you think about that that transaction? Well, it's easy to look back on it and make a different decision now. The reason we sold that at time was because we were selling off a bunch of stuff or consolidating to just kinda go all in on on one thing on base camp essentially. It's kind of around that time.

17:07

We've since decided to make more things than just base camp. So we're kind of in a multi product world again. I think they got a very good deal. Let's just say.

We've since decided to make more things than just base camp. So we're kind of in a multi product world again. I think they got a very good deal. Let's just say.

17:16

And the thing that I will say bugs me about our decision about that is that that was the easiest month, not the sale, but the the product was the easiest money. We built the job board in two weeks. And it was generating at the time for us something like thirty

And the thing that I will say bugs me about our decision about that is that that was the easiest month, not the sale, but the the product was the easiest money. We built the job board in two weeks. And it was generating at the time for us something like thirty

17:30

grand a month, something like that

grand a month, something like that

17:33

with no work. Like, literally,

with no work. Like, literally,

17:35

quote next to nothing to do.

quote next to nothing to do.

17:38

It was all, you know, self-service automated. Maybe there's a customer service question here and there, but, like, essentially nothing.

It was all, you know, self-service automated. Maybe there's a customer service question here and there, but, like, essentially nothing.

17:44

And, I wish we still had that. We could still launch another one. Like, nothing says we couldn't do it again.

And, I wish we still had that. We could still launch another one. Like, nothing says we couldn't do it again.

17:51

We're still working remotely. I think we do something different. I have some ideas on that. We might do something like that at some point. I don't really know, but I would say it was very good bye. But now now I'm an investor in his company, so I own a little tiny piece of that anyway. On the other side. You, Jason, what I think is cool is

We're still working remotely. I think we do something different. I have some ideas on that. We might do something like that at some point. I don't really know, but I would say it was very good bye. But now now I'm an investor in his company, so I own a little tiny piece of that anyway. On the other side. You, Jason, what I think is cool is

18:07

if I remember correctly, You guys, I think you started almost as an agency, and then it kinda like became a software company because you saw recurring problems and and you built that And I think it's been something like twenty five years.

if I remember correctly, You guys, I think you started almost as an agency, and then it kinda like became a software company because you saw recurring problems and and you built that And I think it's been something like twenty five years.

18:20

And you've I don't think that there's any, great resource out there

And you've I don't think that there's any, great resource out there

18:24

that says your guys' revenue, but it we it's definitely tens of millions. Who knows if it's even north of a hundred million, but it's a very big business.

that says your guys' revenue, but it we it's definitely tens of millions. Who knows if it's even north of a hundred million, but it's a very big business.

18:32

You do marketing in the sense of you have these really cool books.

You do marketing in the sense of you have these really cool books.

18:36

Rework is awesome, and you're a public figure and you blog a lot. But

Rework is awesome, and you're a public figure and you blog a lot. But

18:41

I'm listening to this from the outside, I would think, well, it works because Jason and David were early, and they kept at it for twenty five years. And that's the reasons why they have such fat margins, not just because they're smart, but it's because they were early in in the game. What would you say to that?

I'm listening to this from the outside, I would think, well, it works because Jason and David were early, and they kept at it for twenty five years. And that's the reasons why they have such fat margins, not just because they're smart, but it's because they were early in in the game. What would you say to that?

18:56

I think you're right. By the way, as far as numbers, we we've the only thing we've ever shared is that we generate tens of millions in annual profits because I don't really care about revenue numbers. You can go broke generating as much revenues you can imagine. Do you measure profit on a GAAP basis, or do you do, like, a

I think you're right. By the way, as far as numbers, we we've the only thing we've ever shared is that we generate tens of millions in annual profits because I don't really care about revenue numbers. You can go broke generating as much revenues you can imagine. Do you measure profit on a GAAP basis, or do you do, like, a

19:12

non GAAP, where you just look at cash flow? No. It's GAAP. Okay. It's like net profit legit

non GAAP, where you just look at cash flow? No. It's GAAP. Okay. It's like net profit legit

19:17

after everything. Right? So we're we're we we really we're proud of that, you know, we're really proud of that, and we work hard at that.

after everything. Right? So we're we're we we really we're proud of that, you know, we're really proud of that, and we work hard at that.

19:24

But I do think timing and luck

But I do think timing and luck

19:27

have a lot to do with it and market conditions. Like, could we launch this again today? No. We couldn't.

have a lot to do with it and market conditions. Like, could we launch this again today? No. We couldn't.

19:34

That's fine too. Like, who cares? It it doesn't really matter. Right? People ask that all the time. Could you do it again? No. Probably not. Who cares? Why why would I need to? Don't have to. Don't have to. Like, you, you know, you this is why this is one of the reasons why we've kept this business going for so long.

That's fine too. Like, who cares? It it doesn't really matter. Right? People ask that all the time. Could you do it again? No. Probably not. Who cares? Why why would I need to? Don't have to. Don't have to. Like, you, you know, you this is why this is one of the reasons why we've kept this business going for so long.

19:49

I don't think lightning strikes that often.

I don't think lightning strikes that often.

19:52

We've got a couple really, really big hits. We've done it the way we wanted to do it. We've got a lot of momentum. We're well known. We've we've built this business our own way. I would hate to give this up. Like, selling this would be sad. Like, I'd I'd lose something. You could say, well, look at all the money. I'd lose more than I'd make.

We've got a couple really, really big hits. We've done it the way we wanted to do it. We've got a lot of momentum. We're well known. We've we've built this business our own way. I would hate to give this up. Like, selling this would be sad. Like, I'd I'd lose something. You could say, well, look at all the money. I'd lose more than I'd make.

20:11

Now that's not to say that that couldn't happen at point down the road. Of course, like, a business is either going to die or be handed off or still, like, second to last forever and ever. And that could change next year. I don't even know. Right? Who knows? But This is the whole we don't plan. I don't really know what's gonna happen. But right now, it would feel like a loss to sell the company.

Now that's not to say that that couldn't happen at point down the road. Of course, like, a business is either going to die or be handed off or still, like, second to last forever and ever. And that could change next year. I don't even know. Right? Who knows? But This is the whole we don't plan. I don't really know what's gonna happen. But right now, it would feel like a loss to sell the company.

20:29

So that's why I'm actually frankly nervous about that. I'm afraid of what I would

So that's why I'm actually frankly nervous about that. I'm afraid of what I would

20:34

I'm afraid of having nothing to do that I'd be good at.

I'm afraid of having nothing to do that I'd be good at.

20:37

I know I'm good at this. I like doing this. Why would I wanna stop, you know, is sort of how I look at it. But, yeah, to your point, I I don't I don't take credit for being able to do this again.

I know I'm good at this. I like doing this. Why would I wanna stop, you know, is sort of how I look at it. But, yeah, to your point, I I don't I don't take credit for being able to do this again.

20:47

And I think

And I think

20:49

A lot of I mean, you guys speak with a lot of entrepreneurs.

A lot of I mean, you guys speak with a lot of entrepreneurs.

20:52

Sometimes people hit it big twice, sometimes.

Sometimes people hit it big twice, sometimes.

20:56

Sometimes though those are more like sales,

Sometimes though those are more like sales,

20:59

you know, where, like, they're in they're in a a world where you can keep selling companies that don't work.

you know, where, like, they're in they're in a a world where you can keep selling companies that don't work.

21:06

As far as actually finding people who've started multiple businesses that have been profitable businesses

As far as actually finding people who've started multiple businesses that have been profitable businesses

21:11

and really successful businesses, it's not that common. It's really hard to do. By the way, that was my big fear. So I sold my company,

and really successful businesses, it's not that common. It's really hard to do. By the way, that was my big fear. So I sold my company,

21:19

and, I had a guy sit down and talk to me And he said, how many people do you know who have started two successful business? And in my head, I was like, fuck you, man. Like, I'm gonna do it. You know, like, I was angry. Right. Right. Yeah. I was I was angry, and I was angry because I was afraid in reality. And after I sold, I dabbled in real estate, and I fucking failed. And I was like, shit. I'm human. I'm not, like, I'm not the man. I did get, you know, there wasn't skill. There was also a whole lot of luck involved in my exit.

and, I had a guy sit down and talk to me And he said, how many people do you know who have started two successful business? And in my head, I was like, fuck you, man. Like, I'm gonna do it. You know, like, I was angry. Right. Right. Yeah. I was I was angry, and I was angry because I was afraid in reality. And after I sold, I dabbled in real estate, and I fucking failed. And I was like, shit. I'm human. I'm not, like, I'm not the man. I did get, you know, there wasn't skill. There was also a whole lot of luck involved in my exit.

21:46

And,

And,

21:47

I I will I also had that fear. And then after about six months, I was like, I gotta do something. I can't just do nothing. I I feel like a bum, but it was a lot of starting things was rooted in fear and rooted in. I don't wanna be lonely, so I need to create something where I can hire people and be around them. I hear that. I also think, you know, like, I'm turning fifteen a few weeks. Like, I don't have the stamina to start another business, like, and wait twenty years. You know? Like, I I just don't I don't have that. Like, you know, when I was twenty five, I could do it. Thirty five, I could do it. I don't wanna do it anymore. I wanna keep this thing going until I don't.

I I will I also had that fear. And then after about six months, I was like, I gotta do something. I can't just do nothing. I I feel like a bum, but it was a lot of starting things was rooted in fear and rooted in. I don't wanna be lonely, so I need to create something where I can hire people and be around them. I hear that. I also think, you know, like, I'm turning fifteen a few weeks. Like, I don't have the stamina to start another business, like, and wait twenty years. You know? Like, I I just don't I don't have that. Like, you know, when I was twenty five, I could do it. Thirty five, I could do it. I don't wanna do it anymore. I wanna keep this thing going until I don't.

22:22

All in, I think that we really,

All in, I think that we really,

22:25

like doing this. We have got some new ideas. The one step has really kind of inject us with some new ideas. We're about to start on another product. Which will be a SaaS products. We're gonna do SaaS and and non SaaS products again.

like doing this. We have got some new ideas. The one step has really kind of inject us with some new ideas. We're about to start on another product. Which will be a SaaS products. We're gonna do SaaS and and non SaaS products again.

22:37

And we'll see what happens. Again, we'll see what happens. And it could be This is the thing. Like, it could be a year from now where I changed my mind. I I don't know. We really don't know. But I think David and I both, like, I think if we, one of us decide to go,

And we'll see what happens. Again, we'll see what happens. And it could be This is the thing. Like, it could be a year from now where I changed my mind. I I don't know. We really don't know. But I think David and I both, like, I think if we, one of us decide to go,

22:49

we would have to sell the business because I don't think that, what the either one of us would stick around. One of my favorite stories is the story where,

we would have to sell the business because I don't think that, what the either one of us would stick around. One of my favorite stories is the story where,

22:57

Mark Zuckerberg

Mark Zuckerberg

22:58

early on, I think he's, like, twenty one years old or something, and he gets an offer to sell Facebook for a billion dollars.

early on, I think he's, like, twenty one years old or something, and he gets an offer to sell Facebook for a billion dollars.

23:03

And the story goes, he goes into the board meeting, and he's, like, yeah, like, you know, we have to we technically have to discuss this,

And the story goes, he goes into the board meeting, and he's, like, yeah, like, you know, we have to we technically have to discuss this,

23:10

got an offer from, I think, Yahoo to sell for a billion dollars. Obviously, we're not gonna take it, on to the next matter. And then, Peter Teal and others were like, hey, hey, Mark. Hey. Yo. You know, you're gonna have, like, whatever, five hundred million dollars if if you did that, maybe we should just chat about this for a second and they were like, well, let's talk here. And one of the things he said was, like,

got an offer from, I think, Yahoo to sell for a billion dollars. Obviously, we're not gonna take it, on to the next matter. And then, Peter Teal and others were like, hey, hey, Mark. Hey. Yo. You know, you're gonna have, like, whatever, five hundred million dollars if if you did that, maybe we should just chat about this for a second and they were like, well, let's talk here. And one of the things he said was, like,

23:29

he's, like, I but I liked business. He's like, if I had the money, what would I what would I go do? I would just wanna build a social network. I think that's the coolest thing I could do right now, and like the one I've got. Why would I wanna go start over and try to build a new one? Totally. I loved that. I don't know how much of that story is true because, you know, there's a lot of, like, lore, but that's okay. Still cool story. Have you guys does you guys ever have a moment where somebody comes to and it's it's an offer you have to discuss?

he's, like, I but I liked business. He's like, if I had the money, what would I what would I go do? I would just wanna build a social network. I think that's the coolest thing I could do right now, and like the one I've got. Why would I wanna go start over and try to build a new one? Totally. I loved that. I don't know how much of that story is true because, you know, there's a lot of, like, lore, but that's okay. Still cool story. Have you guys does you guys ever have a moment where somebody comes to and it's it's an offer you have to discuss?

23:54

And, like, what what went down in that conversation?

And, like, what what went down in that conversation?

23:57

We've never been we've never allowed that to happen.

We've never been we've never allowed that to happen.

24:01

No one, like, I I get I still get a handful of emails every week from VCs or PPE firms, like, in I just say no. Like, I have a I have a default. Just no. So we don't even have conversations.

No one, like, I I get I still get a handful of emails every week from VCs or PPE firms, like, in I just say no. Like, I have a I have a default. Just no. So we don't even have conversations.

24:12

We did take some money from Jeff Bezos, though, back in, two thousand

We did take some money from Jeff Bezos, though, back in, two thousand

24:15

six, six or seven six, I think. It was like a secondary thing. So he he bought some shares from me and from David. That money went to our pockets and never went to the business. No money has ever gone to the business except customer revenues. And we did that to take a little bit of risk off the table because in two thousand six, basecamp was two years old, the product,

six, six or seven six, I think. It was like a secondary thing. So he he bought some shares from me and from David. That money went to our pockets and never went to the business. No money has ever gone to the business except customer revenues. And we did that to take a little bit of risk off the table because in two thousand six, basecamp was two years old, the product,

24:31

And we're like, this could be a fluke. I don't know what the hell is gonna happen in this industry. Who knows when we could get wiped out tomorrow?

And we're like, this could be a fluke. I don't know what the hell is gonna happen in this industry. Who knows when we could get wiped out tomorrow?

24:38

You know, could we put a few million bucks in the bank each and just, like, take some of that risk off the table and and also give us some confidence to just go forward at that point. Because if it all went to hell, we have something to show for it personally. So we did that.

You know, could we put a few million bucks in the bank each and just, like, take some of that risk off the table and and also give us some confidence to just go forward at that point. Because if it all went to hell, we have something to show for it personally. So we did that.

24:53

Jeff, Jeff found us because, a couple companies that he was invested in had to use base camp.

Jeff, Jeff found us because, a couple companies that he was invested in had to use base camp.

24:59

He saw me speak at a conference in San Diego in two thousand five called eTech, don't know if that conference is still around anymore. He was speaking. I was speaking. I think he liked what I had to say the way I

He saw me speak at a conference in San Diego in two thousand five called eTech, don't know if that conference is still around anymore. He was speaking. I was speaking. I think he liked what I had to say the way I

25:11

was. We were very different as we stole our but way back then way different in terms of, like, our point of view and the things we were saying. And he likes those kind of companies. What does that mean? You're more were you more harsh or or more, what?

was. We were very different as we stole our but way back then way different in terms of, like, our point of view and the things we were saying. And he likes those kind of companies. What does that mean? You're more were you more harsh or or more, what?

25:25

I was a year. You're a punk. We'll call it punk rock. You're a more punk rock. More punk rock. I love that the answer to this question is kind of actually that Jeff was a fan. Jeff was a fan, so he reached out. That's He was. I mean, Jeff was a fan. Like, let's just, you know, it's

I was a year. You're a punk. We'll call it punk rock. You're a more punk rock. More punk rock. I love that the answer to this question is kind of actually that Jeff was a fan. Jeff was a fan, so he reached out. That's He was. I mean, Jeff was a fan. Like, let's just, you know, it's

25:38

anyway, he was a fan. He's a fan of of of of, you know, people think differently about how to run a business as he thinks differently about how to run a business. So so we just kinda chatted, you know. We we we went to Seattle met him

anyway, he was a fan. He's a fan of of of of, you know, people think differently about how to run a business as he thinks differently about how to run a business. So so we just kinda chatted, you know. We we we went to Seattle met him

25:49

I didn't really I knew this was, like, an investment opportunity for him because he wouldn't just come he wouldn't say, like, come on and say hello.

I didn't really I knew this was, like, an investment opportunity for him because he wouldn't just come he wouldn't say, like, come on and say hello.

25:56

But I didn't go into it wanting to do that. But after a couple meetings, we really liked him.

But I didn't go into it wanting to do that. But after a couple meetings, we really liked him.

26:01

He's very likable.

He's very likable.

26:03

And and, we had a lot of admiration for him, obviously, for what he's done and what he built at time and who he was and how he did it.

And and, we had a lot of admiration for him, obviously, for what he's done and what he built at time and who he was and how he did it.

26:10

And his whole story and the whole thing, obviously. I mean, Bezos, Amazon, amazing thing. Right? So

And his whole story and the whole thing, obviously. I mean, Bezos, Amazon, amazing thing. Right? So

26:16

Eventually, we worked out some deal, which was ridiculous. It's a ridiculous,

Eventually, we worked out some deal, which was ridiculous. It's a ridiculous,

26:19

ridiculous deal, and I can't go into the specifics, but

ridiculous deal, and I can't go into the specifics, but

26:24

We barely had any revenue at the time. The valuation was stupid.

We barely had any revenue at the time. The valuation was stupid.

26:27

He knew it was stupid. He's like, put together something. I need or, like, we don't know. He's like, put together something. I need something. So we put together something. We share with them, and we all had to laugh about it because it was ridiculous. But, like, it had to be something where we could make something happen.

He knew it was stupid. He's like, put together something. I need or, like, we don't know. He's like, put together something. I need something. So we put together something. We share with them, and we all had to laugh about it because it was ridiculous. But, like, it had to be something where we could make something happen.

26:39

And,

And,

26:40

like, look, we don't want you to have any control. We don't want a board of directors.

like, look, we don't want you to have any control. We don't want a board of directors.

26:45

They had one provision which said something like in five or seven years. They had some right to do something like

They had one provision which said something like in five or seven years. They had some right to do something like

26:51

encourage us to do something that we might not have wanted to do, like, sell or go public or something, but they didn't have the power to, I think, push it through

encourage us to do something that we might not have wanted to do, like, sell or go public or something, but they didn't have the power to, I think, push it through

26:58

Anyway, it was just a suggestions clause. Maybe that's what they call it. I don't know.

Anyway, it was just a suggestions clause. Maybe that's what they call it. I don't know.

27:04

It was very weak. That was a weak he didn't want, like, he's like, I want you guys to do what you wanna do. He's like, I like long term thinkers. I'm like, we're in this forever. We're not in this to sell the business, the whole thing. He liked that. So what what's he like? You go there to Seattle, take us into the meeting when none of us will ever get to do that. Right? Especially Bezos back then. By the way, have you guys heard this story really quick? It was the founder of Root,

It was very weak. That was a weak he didn't want, like, he's like, I want you guys to do what you wanna do. He's like, I like long term thinkers. I'm like, we're in this forever. We're not in this to sell the business, the whole thing. He liked that. So what what's he like? You go there to Seattle, take us into the meeting when none of us will ever get to do that. Right? Especially Bezos back then. By the way, have you guys heard this story really quick? It was the founder of Root,

27:25

or w o o t. There's this famous article Sean. Oh, woo. Yes. Where they go out to eat, Jeff Bezos wants to buy this guy's company. And they go out to eat, and Jeff Bezos is sitting there. They go to breakfast. And Jeff Bezos orders potatoes with bacon and octu octu octu octu octuus.

or w o o t. There's this famous article Sean. Oh, woo. Yes. Where they go out to eat, Jeff Bezos wants to buy this guy's company. And they go out to eat, and Jeff Bezos is sitting there. They go to breakfast. And Jeff Bezos orders potatoes with bacon and octu octu octu octu octuus.

27:42

And he and the guy's like, Why'd you order that? That's like a weird breakfast order. And he goes, you're the octopus that I'm having for breakfast. Bezos said. When I look at the menu, you're the thing I don't understand. The thing I've never had, and I must have breakfast, ocupus.

And he and the guy's like, Why'd you order that? That's like a weird breakfast order. And he goes, you're the octopus that I'm having for breakfast. Bezos said. When I look at the menu, you're the thing I don't understand. The thing I've never had, and I must have breakfast, ocupus.

27:59

And it was like the article tries to pay them as a weirdo, but it doesn't exactly give full context And so at at least now we have someone here who's also been in that in that situation. That seems very, Jeff.

And it was like the article tries to pay them as a weirdo, but it doesn't exactly give full context And so at at least now we have someone here who's also been in that in that situation. That seems very, Jeff.

28:11

Jeff is probably the most optimistic person I've ever met, and that was very clear from the start. And I'd never been around someone who had that much optimism. That was, I mean, clearly intelligent.

Jeff is probably the most optimistic person I've ever met, and that was very clear from the start. And I'd never been around someone who had that much optimism. That was, I mean, clearly intelligent.

28:24

Very intelligent.

Very intelligent.

28:25

But so but that made it with optimism is really powerful. Optimism about what? About you, about the world, about his company? What what was he opt what do you remember?

But so but that made it with optimism is really powerful. Optimism about what? About you, about the world, about his company? What what was he opt what do you remember?

28:35

It's it's an aura of, like,

It's it's an aura of, like,

28:37

can do.

can do.

28:38

This just positivity, you know, you've seen him. He smiles a lot. He laughs big. You know, he's just he has a he has a an enthusiasm about him.

This just positivity, you know, you've seen him. He smiles a lot. He laughs big. You know, he's just he has a he has a an enthusiasm about him.

28:47

That is,

That is,

28:49

I would say, like, formed into an optimism that is unshakable and unbreakable. Is it, like,

I would say, like, formed into an optimism that is unshakable and unbreakable. Is it, like,

28:56

like, why not? Like, for example, I've met people, I think what you're describing, and I went around them. They, like, explained their new idea, and they're like, it's gonna be this, this, and this, a lot of people default to, like, well, you can't do that, but all these people default to, well, why not? This all makes sense. Like, I'm gonna do this, and then I think this will happen. And this why won't that happen? I think if you posed something really unusual to Jeff, he would just start laughing. In a way, like, wow. That is interesting.

like, why not? Like, for example, I've met people, I think what you're describing, and I went around them. They, like, explained their new idea, and they're like, it's gonna be this, this, and this, a lot of people default to, like, well, you can't do that, but all these people default to, well, why not? This all makes sense. Like, I'm gonna do this, and then I think this will happen. And this why won't that happen? I think if you posed something really unusual to Jeff, he would just start laughing. In a way, like, wow. That is interesting.

29:20

Like, it's all interesting to him.

Like, it's all interesting to him.

29:23

That was my take. And I remember we were showing him Campfire, which is our first chat group chat tool. This is way way, you know, back before Slack and There wasn't really something out there, like, this was IRC, but there was nothing really simple. And we put up on the screen and I started talking to him about it because it wasn't out yet. And, like, fifteen seconds in, he just got the whole damn thing. He just got it. Like, he got it away where he got it more than we got it. And he for the people who are always curious, like, well, okay. Well, you're not gonna sell the business. How does he make any money on the investment? Well, we're to LLC. So he's a member. He has units. And every year he gets distribution.

That was my take. And I remember we were showing him Campfire, which is our first chat group chat tool. This is way way, you know, back before Slack and There wasn't really something out there, like, this was IRC, but there was nothing really simple. And we put up on the screen and I started talking to him about it because it wasn't out yet. And, like, fifteen seconds in, he just got the whole damn thing. He just got it. Like, he got it away where he got it more than we got it. And he for the people who are always curious, like, well, okay. Well, you're not gonna sell the business. How does he make any money on the investment? Well, we're to LLC. So he's a member. He has units. And every year he gets distribution.

29:57

And he's made his money back many times over, and he still owns, you know, his shares, and we haven't had to sell the business. It's been a great investment for him. Not at, like, a massive exit, but, like, it pays for a lot of things. I'm sure it's it's real cash. Jeff, good news. Your net worth has gone up by point zero zero zero one percent this year.

And he's made his money back many times over, and he still owns, you know, his shares, and we haven't had to sell the business. It's been a great investment for him. Not at, like, a massive exit, but, like, it pays for a lot of things. I'm sure it's it's real cash. Jeff, good news. Your net worth has gone up by point zero zero zero one percent this year.

30:12

You can thank us for that. What's cool is, like, we don't matter. But when you talk to him, it's not that way. Yeah. Of course. He is genuinely curious and interested in what you have to say. And I I've always respected that about him. I love that description. And by the way, I've heard almost the same verbatim thing because Amazon bought Twitch, and I've asked, Emma, you know, the CEO of Twitch. I was like, what's Jeff following? Because that was his for a while, it was Andy Jassy, and then it was he would go meet with Jeff once a year when they would present the plan. And he said the same things. He was like, when you're in the room with him, it's like there's nothing else that exists in the world. Like, he's fully engaged, fully

You can thank us for that. What's cool is, like, we don't matter. But when you talk to him, it's not that way. Yeah. Of course. He is genuinely curious and interested in what you have to say. And I I've always respected that about him. I love that description. And by the way, I've heard almost the same verbatim thing because Amazon bought Twitch, and I've asked, Emma, you know, the CEO of Twitch. I was like, what's Jeff following? Because that was his for a while, it was Andy Jassy, and then it was he would go meet with Jeff once a year when they would present the plan. And he said the same things. He was like, when you're in the room with him, it's like there's nothing else that exists in the world. Like, he's fully engaged, fully

30:45

paying attention fully present.

paying attention fully present.

30:47

And he's, like,

And he's, like,

30:48

he's having a good time. He's not, like, super, super serious about everything. He's laughing, and he's curious. And he asks questions. And he mostly listens. But then when he asked a question, he almost always, like, has, like, struck the heart of the issue?

he's having a good time. He's not, like, super, super serious about everything. He's laughing, and he's curious. And he asks questions. And he mostly listens. But then when he asked a question, he almost always, like, has, like, struck the heart of the issue?

31:00

And you're like, how did you he's like, dude, I worked on the I run this business, and it's like I founded this business for fifteen years ago. I run it every single day. You think about this for, like, one hour a year, But in that hour, you kind of put your finger on the right thing that fast. That is impressive.

And you're like, how did you he's like, dude, I worked on the I run this business, and it's like I founded this business for fifteen years ago. I run it every single day. You think about this for, like, one hour a year, But in that hour, you kind of put your finger on the right thing that fast. That is impressive.

31:16

Sean, I wanna ask him. You you have on here about this this Elon quote So you talked about reading Bezos's books,

Sean, I wanna ask him. You you have on here about this this Elon quote So you talked about reading Bezos's books,

31:23

Bezos's book. You actually had an interesting take on reading Elon's biography that I thought was intriguing. I I I just think

Bezos's book. You actually had an interesting take on reading Elon's biography that I thought was intriguing. I I I just think

31:29

it's I admire you, Jason. So it's cool to see, like, who you admire and what your opinions is on different people who I may or may not admire. In my way, I think it's not like this person, but maybe an aspect of that person or a one way that that person does something. Not like this person's good and other people are bad. And all things they do are good or whatever. Right? We're all a lot of different things. We are all a lot of different things. When I read you the quote, you had tweeted this out. I thought this was pretty fascinating. You said, I'm inspired by the business side of Elon's biography.

it's I admire you, Jason. So it's cool to see, like, who you admire and what your opinions is on different people who I may or may not admire. In my way, I think it's not like this person, but maybe an aspect of that person or a one way that that person does something. Not like this person's good and other people are bad. And all things they do are good or whatever. Right? We're all a lot of different things. We are all a lot of different things. When I read you the quote, you had tweeted this out. I thought this was pretty fascinating. You said, I'm inspired by the business side of Elon's biography.

31:57

There is one word that's overused and I think inaccurate in the book reckless.

There is one word that's overused and I think inaccurate in the book reckless.

32:01

Well, it seems like risky, actually, to me, strikes me as risk reduction.

Well, it seems like risky, actually, to me, strikes me as risk reduction.

32:05

And then he said the following is that compared to traditional corporate America, corporate America takes the riskier route. It's fear, marginal decision making complexity. And I love this line. You go. Mediocrity

And then he said the following is that compared to traditional corporate America, corporate America takes the riskier route. It's fear, marginal decision making complexity. And I love this line. You go. Mediocrity

32:15

slathered in marketing.

slathered in marketing.

32:17

And then he said, mistakes come in all shapes and sizes, but the ones that come from slow decisions

And then he said, mistakes come in all shapes and sizes, but the ones that come from slow decisions

32:23

committees that dilute responsibility,

committees that dilute responsibility,

32:24

sloppy cost controls,

sloppy cost controls,

32:26

and requiring pseudo certainty before making a move. Those are the worst ones, and Elon doesn't make those. But his critics often do. His mistakes are real, and he and they have consequences, but they're rooted in forward motion. I'm glad there's someone who is out there unafraid of making those kinds of mistakes and showing us all what ha what is possible when you pierce the membrane that holds most things back. That's that's pretty good. What made you feel that way?

and requiring pseudo certainty before making a move. Those are the worst ones, and Elon doesn't make those. But his critics often do. His mistakes are real, and he and they have consequences, but they're rooted in forward motion. I'm glad there's someone who is out there unafraid of making those kinds of mistakes and showing us all what ha what is possible when you pierce the membrane that holds most things back. That's that's pretty good. What made you feel that way?

32:48

I would say reading the book made me feel that way. Now, of course, it's a story of what's, you know, a biography, but, like, it's a story. There's a perspective on it, point of view.

I would say reading the book made me feel that way. Now, of course, it's a story of what's, you know, a biography, but, like, it's a story. There's a perspective on it, point of view.

32:57

A lot of the examples in the book are about,

A lot of the examples in the book are about,

33:00

simplifying,

simplifying,

33:01

are about cutting out waste,

are about cutting out waste,

33:04

getting to the root of things, figuring out, like, what really matters,

getting to the root of things, figuring out, like, what really matters,

33:07

not getting caught up in

not getting caught up in

33:09

what other people think it should be,

what other people think it should be,

33:12

and also not being caught up in things you can't do. And

and also not being caught up in things you can't do. And

33:16

it was that impression, and there's a there's a multitude of examples. There's one of my one of my favorite examples. I might be miscording this slightly, but

it was that impression, and there's a there's a multitude of examples. There's one of my one of my favorite examples. I might be miscording this slightly, but

33:24

This is an example of of a there's a rocket, you know, SpaceX rocket ready to go launch, and they find, like, a crack

This is an example of of a there's a rocket, you know, SpaceX rocket ready to go launch, and they find, like, a crack

33:30

in the in the skirt that surrounds one of the engines.

in the in the skirt that surrounds one of the engines.

33:34

And I think, again, I'm gonna get this some of the details wrong, but, like, if NASA had found that,

And I think, again, I'm gonna get this some of the details wrong, but, like, if NASA had found that,

33:40

there's, like, a three month, it

there's, like, a three month, it

33:42

launches scrapped,

launches scrapped,

33:44

multi month delay, rebuild the whole engine, kinda

multi month delay, rebuild the whole engine, kinda

33:47

that sort of thing. So so there's there's a crack in in the skirt, and and Elon hears about it, and they stop the launch or something and Elon hears about it. And,

that sort of thing. So so there's there's a crack in in the skirt, and and Elon hears about it, and they stop the launch or something and Elon hears about it. And,

33:56

he goes, what's the problem? He goes, there's a crack in the skirt. He goes, let's get rid of the crack. Could we get rid of the crack? And they go, well, if you get rid of the crack, you're gonna lose some propulsion, he goes, okay. How much propulsion are we going to lose?

he goes, what's the problem? He goes, there's a crack in the skirt. He goes, let's get rid of the crack. Could we get rid of the crack? And they go, well, if you get rid of the crack, you're gonna lose some propulsion, he goes, okay. How much propulsion are we going to lose?

34:06

They're like this much. He goes, we can lose that. There's enough margin here. So let's cut the crack out and go.

They're like this much. He goes, we can lose that. There's enough margin here. So let's cut the crack out and go.

34:13

And that's what they did, and the launch was successful. And it's like The kind of question

And that's what they did, and the launch was successful. And it's like The kind of question

34:18

that nobody else would even think to ask, like, well, what is the problem? It's a crack.

that nobody else would even think to ask, like, well, what is the problem? It's a crack.

34:24

It's not the engine. It's a crack. Let's get rid of the crack. Can we get rid of the crack? Yes. But how? This way? Well, that's gonna do this. Okay. Well, what does that mean? Okay. Sure. Let's do it. So that might seem reckless. I think it was position or pitched almost as reckless in the book. To me, that's like, common sense fundamental

It's not the engine. It's a crack. Let's get rid of the crack. Can we get rid of the crack? Yes. But how? This way? Well, that's gonna do this. Okay. Well, what does that mean? Okay. Sure. Let's do it. So that might seem reckless. I think it was position or pitched almost as reckless in the book. To me, that's like, common sense fundamental

34:43

smart

smart

34:44

problem solving. And you think about all the other risks it saves and all the other things it prevents and the time that goes by and all the other things that can happen during that time that can go wrong.

problem solving. And you think about all the other risks it saves and all the other things it prevents and the time that goes by and all the other things that can happen during that time that can go wrong.

34:53

I just see that as brilliance,

I just see that as brilliance,

34:57

not as as as as recklessness. So that's my take on it. So I know that you guys are

not as as as as recklessness. So that's my take on it. So I know that you guys are

35:03

on your website, your, you have a landing page for this product

on your website, your, you have a landing page for this product

35:07

that I believe you describe. I I forget how you described it, but it's something like it's a non recurring software product because it's like you wanna take back users need to take back control of, like, their their wallets and not pay a company every single month. They just could pay one time. So that seems like that excites you. And I wanna hear more about that. And you also alluded to, you have, like, a few more products you wanna launch. What ideas and businesses are exciting to you at the moment? Sure. So, what you're talking about is this thing called Once, which is more of an umbrella brand. So once dot com, o n c e dot com, and it's a one pager, and people can read it. The the fundamental idea behind once is that we think that people should be able to buy products again. Right now, pretty much all software is a service. It's a rental. You're renting serve you're renting software in perpetuity.

that I believe you describe. I I forget how you described it, but it's something like it's a non recurring software product because it's like you wanna take back users need to take back control of, like, their their wallets and not pay a company every single month. They just could pay one time. So that seems like that excites you. And I wanna hear more about that. And you also alluded to, you have, like, a few more products you wanna launch. What ideas and businesses are exciting to you at the moment? Sure. So, what you're talking about is this thing called Once, which is more of an umbrella brand. So once dot com, o n c e dot com, and it's a one pager, and people can read it. The the fundamental idea behind once is that we think that people should be able to buy products again. Right now, pretty much all software is a service. It's a rental. You're renting serve you're renting software in perpetuity.

35:53

And if you stop paying, you lose it all. Like, okay. Some services make sense.

And if you stop paying, you lose it all. Like, okay. Some services make sense.

35:58

That are services, but they're also, I think, a large collection of products, old school products. So you'd buy and you'd own, and it's yours, and you don't have to keep paying for it. We wanna bring that back. That's how it used to be. We think there's some real advantages to that in certain areas, in certain product categories.

That are services, but they're also, I think, a large collection of products, old school products. So you'd buy and you'd own, and it's yours, and you don't have to keep paying for it. We wanna bring that back. That's how it used to be. We think there's some real advantages to that in certain areas, in certain product categories.

36:14

And we think companies should have the option

And we think companies should have the option

36:16

to spend money once and not a lot a few hundred bucks and own the thing, and not only own the thing, but get the code too. So you can modify it and screw around with it as much as you want. This is not something that has been happening for many, many, many, many years. We think it's time to bring it back. So we will launch the first park, which is Camp Fire bringing back our old chat tool that sort of died on the vine to some although there's still some customers using the original version, but we don't sell it anymore.

to spend money once and not a lot a few hundred bucks and own the thing, and not only own the thing, but get the code too. So you can modify it and screw around with it as much as you want. This is not something that has been happening for many, many, many, many years. We think it's time to bring it back. So we will launch the first park, which is Camp Fire bringing back our old chat tool that sort of died on the vine to some although there's still some customers using the original version, but we don't sell it anymore.

36:40

And, Camp Fire is installable

And, Camp Fire is installable

36:42

software.

software.

36:43

We built a whole new tech stack around this to allow people to we we you buy it on Shopify store. It's two hundred ninety nine bucks. You buy it. We send you an email with a single line that you paste into a terminal of a server So it's there's a little bit of technical knowledge required, but, like, barely any. I'm not technical. I can do it. I've done it on Digital Ocean. I bought it

We built a whole new tech stack around this to allow people to we we you buy it on Shopify store. It's two hundred ninety nine bucks. You buy it. We send you an email with a single line that you paste into a terminal of a server So it's there's a little bit of technical knowledge required, but, like, barely any. I'm not technical. I can do it. I've done it on Digital Ocean. I bought it

37:05

shared server and ran this one command.

shared server and ran this one command.

37:07

And now you have a chat server running

And now you have a chat server running

37:09

that you own. It's two hundred and nine bucks once, unlimited users, and it's basically ninety percent of what, like, Slack would do. It's the core stuff

that you own. It's two hundred and nine bucks once, unlimited users, and it's basically ninety percent of what, like, Slack would do. It's the core stuff

37:19

chatting,

chatting,

37:20

DMs,

DMs,

37:21

Admissions,

Admissions,

37:21

sharing files, It doesn't have threads. It doesn't have video chat. It doesn't help. It but it has the fundamentals of what this nugget of this idea is. And the principle around this is that

sharing files, It doesn't have threads. It doesn't have video chat. It doesn't help. It but it has the fundamentals of what this nugget of this idea is. And the principle around this is that

37:32

In any industry,

In any industry,

37:35

generics eventually come in. For for example, there's a lot of chat tools that exist.

generics eventually come in. For for example, there's a lot of chat tools that exist.

37:40

In software today in in in in the industry.

In software today in in in in the industry.

37:43

So they're basically commodities,

So they're basically commodities,

37:45

but they're still priced like luxuries. It's it's companies are running or spending tens of thousands of dollars a month on Slack. It's our teams. It's obscene. Absolutely.

but they're still priced like luxuries. It's it's companies are running or spending tens of thousands of dollars a month on Slack. It's our teams. It's obscene. Absolutely.

37:55

I spent I spent that. It's obscene. Yeah. You're I'm okay. You you get it. Right? It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money for basically

I spent I spent that. It's obscene. Yeah. You're I'm okay. You you get it. Right? It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money for basically

38:03

chatting with your coworkers for the most part. Right?

chatting with your coworkers for the most part. Right?

38:07

And

And

38:08

it it's just like there should be a generic

it it's just like there should be a generic

38:11

essentially. This is what happens in in all industries when there's a commodity or when there's a lot of product commodities,

essentially. This is what happens in in all industries when there's a commodity or when there's a lot of product commodities,

38:17

somebody comes to commodity, there becomes a generic, at a much lower price, we're doing something at a high quality and a low price and changing the model around. So, anyway,

somebody comes to commodity, there becomes a generic, at a much lower price, we're doing something at a high quality and a low price and changing the model around. So, anyway,

38:24

Camp Fire is the first one working on second one right now, which I can't talk about yet, but it's related to writing.

Camp Fire is the first one working on second one right now, which I can't talk about yet, but it's related to writing.

38:30

And, maybe we'll do another one or two, and then see how the model looks in a year from now. Like, are we early? How's it working? So far it's still working really, really well with Campfire. We've sold hundreds of thousands of of dollars worth of Campfire in in a few months.

And, maybe we'll do another one or two, and then see how the model looks in a year from now. Like, are we early? How's it working? So far it's still working really, really well with Campfire. We've sold hundreds of thousands of of dollars worth of Campfire in in a few months.

38:45

So we're very happy with the start, but we have to see if it sustains and how it goes, and we're gonna add some more products to that category and see how that goes. Can can we talk about this strategy you have where before you launch something, you put up a page, a big blue page with the founder letter. Yes. And the founder letter is basically saying,

So we're very happy with the start, but we have to see if it sustains and how it goes, and we're gonna add some more products to that category and see how that goes. Can can we talk about this strategy you have where before you launch something, you put up a page, a big blue page with the founder letter. Yes. And the founder letter is basically saying,

39:01

kinda what you just did, which is,

kinda what you just did, which is,

39:04

things used to be a certain way. They've changed.

things used to be a certain way. They've changed.

39:07

It's kind of a seen. You know, I get why they changed, but now it's gotten a little ridiculous. Don't you think?

It's kind of a seen. You know, I get why they changed, but now it's gotten a little ridiculous. Don't you think?

39:12

We're gonna change that. We're gonna bring it back. We think it we think life should be this way. Common sense logic. Don't you agree?

We're gonna change that. We're gonna bring it back. We think it we think life should be this way. Common sense logic. Don't you agree?

39:18

And, yeah, we're gonna do it. If you wanna see if you wanna be a part of that, do this. And, actually, this morning, saw something on Twitter that was kind of interesting. Some guy announced his venture round. It was like, we raised sixteen million dollars. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. What is this? And it's just something called quilt. And I go click this thing quilt, and I'm like, go to the website.

And, yeah, we're gonna do it. If you wanna see if you wanna be a part of that, do this. And, actually, this morning, saw something on Twitter that was kind of interesting. Some guy announced his venture round. It was like, we raised sixteen million dollars. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. What is this? And it's just something called quilt. And I go click this thing quilt, and I'm like, go to the website.

39:37

And it's,

And it's,

39:39

it says some, like, blah blah blah AI jargon

it says some, like, blah blah blah AI jargon

39:42

with a email sign with a sign up form. No. Just no pro no. Tell me don't tell me what it is. Don't tell me why I should want it. Don't tell me what it could do for me. Don't tell me why you built this and what was your motivation.

with a email sign with a sign up form. No. Just no pro no. Tell me don't tell me what it is. Don't tell me why I should want it. Don't tell me what it could do for me. Don't tell me why you built this and what was your motivation.

39:53

Just we raised a bunch of money. Give us your email. And you're on the list, and we need to grow this list, basically. And I thought

Just we raised a bunch of money. Give us your email. And you're on the list, and we need to grow this list, basically. And I thought

39:59

I can't believe more people don't copy

I can't believe more people don't copy

40:01

what you do. So and, like, this is That's how that's how this podcast came to be, Sean, by the way, we were talking about copywriting, and we're like, man, Jason's the best at this. Yeah. And you did this for Hey. And,

what you do. So and, like, this is That's how that's how this podcast came to be, Sean, by the way, we were talking about copywriting, and we're like, man, Jason's the best at this. Yeah. And you did this for Hey. And,

40:12

I used to teach this thing called power writing, and I would teach them. I would say one of the landing page variants that nobody's test nobody's doing is founder letter. There's actually a company called runway that did an amazing job with this. I don't know if you ever saw runway dot com, but,

I used to teach this thing called power writing, and I would teach them. I would say one of the landing page variants that nobody's test nobody's doing is founder letter. There's actually a company called runway that did an amazing job with this. I don't know if you ever saw runway dot com, but,

40:25

this guy Siki, who's a serial founder, was, like, The landing page was a long scrolling thing, but it was basically just a dialogue. And he's like, biggest CEO is hard for a bunch of different reasons, but one of the annoying reasons that feels like it should have been hard was that I kinda had no no grasp of the numbers of my business. And that felt I felt stupid, and I felt insecure about that. And it was important, but I just frankly didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to use these tools. I wasn't really ever taught it. Why don't I know how many weeks of runway I have left? Why don't I know this? Why don't I know that?

this guy Siki, who's a serial founder, was, like, The landing page was a long scrolling thing, but it was basically just a dialogue. And he's like, biggest CEO is hard for a bunch of different reasons, but one of the annoying reasons that feels like it should have been hard was that I kinda had no no grasp of the numbers of my business. And that felt I felt stupid, and I felt insecure about that. And it was important, but I just frankly didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to use these tools. I wasn't really ever taught it. Why don't I know how many weeks of runway I have left? Why don't I know this? Why don't I know that?

40:53

And so I decided, like, I'm gonna build a tool. That's a finance tool, but it's for founders. And he did it as a letter, and it was awesome. And he got a bunch of people to sign up for it. I think more people should be using this tactic. And the reason why I think they don't, to be honest, is because there is no reason to be building their product. There is no intrinsic why. There is no strong point of view that would get people behind it. Their product is either derivative or sort of mediocre or just trend following

And so I decided, like, I'm gonna build a tool. That's a finance tool, but it's for founders. And he did it as a letter, and it was awesome. And he got a bunch of people to sign up for it. I think more people should be using this tactic. And the reason why I think they don't, to be honest, is because there is no reason to be building their product. There is no intrinsic why. There is no strong point of view that would get people behind it. Their product is either derivative or sort of mediocre or just trend following

41:16

if they tried to write the letter, there wouldn't be much to say. It's not the writing that's the hard part. It's the having a point of view that resonates with people. That's the hard part. It's the point of view. So this is my favorite thing to do in the business period. And unfortunately, I don't get to do it that often because we don't launch new things, but I love writing

if they tried to write the letter, there wouldn't be much to say. It's not the writing that's the hard part. It's the having a point of view that resonates with people. That's the hard part. It's the point of view. So this is my favorite thing to do in the business period. And unfortunately, I don't get to do it that often because we don't launch new things, but I love writing

41:33

a brief letter,

a brief letter,

41:36

and I I sweat every word, and I just love it. This is my, like, Bezos moment where I just smile and laugh while I'm while I'm doing this thing. I just love finding the right rhythm and the right rhyme and the right pattern and the right message and the right way to say it. Super fun. I don't know why more people don't do it, but to your point, I think there is something about, like, you have to have a point of view first of all. And the thing is is that you can do with any product. Like, any a novel product, uh-uh, a commodity product. You just have to, like, understand the angle that you're taking. Although, I don't even I don't like the term angles because it seems like it's almost manipulative, but

and I I sweat every word, and I just love it. This is my, like, Bezos moment where I just smile and laugh while I'm while I'm doing this thing. I just love finding the right rhythm and the right rhyme and the right pattern and the right message and the right way to say it. Super fun. I don't know why more people don't do it, but to your point, I think there is something about, like, you have to have a point of view first of all. And the thing is is that you can do with any product. Like, any a novel product, uh-uh, a commodity product. You just have to, like, understand the angle that you're taking. Although, I don't even I don't like the term angles because it seems like it's almost manipulative, but

42:09

what?

what?

42:10

Stick. You need a stick.

Stick. You need a stick.

42:13

You don't like that? I don't know. You need some flavor. What do what do you wanna call it? I'm not gonna, like, stick.

You don't like that? I don't know. You need some flavor. What do what do you wanna call it? I'm not gonna, like, stick.

42:19

I understand. I

I understand. I

42:21

you're right. Like, that's the category.

you're right. Like, that's the category.

42:23

Stick also has these, like, negative connotations, like, it's sort of, like, this

Stick also has these, like, negative connotations, like, it's sort of, like, this

42:28

game and manipulative thing. You're maybe you don't mean it that way. Probably don't. Just like a flavor. You just speak a style. I like the style. I like flavor. I like style about it. I like I like the the point of view. I to me, it it cuts It it has a it has an edge. That's the kind of thing. And I think, first of all, it's very hard to do this. Not I'm not giving myself, like, credit. Like, I could do a hard thing, but it is hard to do this well.

game and manipulative thing. You're maybe you don't mean it that way. Probably don't. Just like a flavor. You just speak a style. I like the style. I like flavor. I like style about it. I like I like the the point of view. I to me, it it cuts It it has a it has an edge. That's the kind of thing. And I think, first of all, it's very hard to do this. Not I'm not giving myself, like, credit. Like, I could do a hard thing, but it is hard to do this well.

42:51

I've always been inspired by people at, you know, Buffet and Bezos who write these amazing shareholder letters. Who are able to communicate

I've always been inspired by people at, you know, Buffet and Bezos who write these amazing shareholder letters. Who are able to communicate

42:57

very clearly,

very clearly,

42:59

and

and

43:00

and can do it in long form writing. Now this isn't that long form. It's a it's a page But

and can do it in long form writing. Now this isn't that long form. It's a it's a page But

43:06

I wanna get excited about that. I I wanna read something, and I wanna be pulled through it. And by the end, feel like it wasn't too long and just it said exactly what I needed to say. And I'm left with some mystery. So one of the things I like to do is you'll see the first sentence on once is something like,

I wanna get excited about that. I I wanna read something, and I wanna be pulled through it. And by the end, feel like it wasn't too long and just it said exactly what I needed to say. And I'm left with some mystery. So one of the things I like to do is you'll see the first sentence on once is something like,

43:20

something happened to business software. Now

something happened to business software. Now

43:23

That

That

43:24

is planting a question in people's heads, but it's not a question.

is planting a question in people's heads, but it's not a question.

43:28

I'm not asking a question. I'm making a statement, and now they're like, What do you mean? Right. Another bought in because they asked themselves the question. Like, oh, yeah. What did what do you mean something happened? Now they wanna find out what happened. And then I kind of go through it. And, and all the way I'm thinking about how do I find resonance? Like, how are they nodding their heads when I'm nodding my head when I'm writing this thing? Do we get to that place? We're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you build up this yeah. Of course. Yeah. You're yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. And you're like, yeah, why am I spending this fucking much money on this thing?

I'm not asking a question. I'm making a statement, and now they're like, What do you mean? Right. Another bought in because they asked themselves the question. Like, oh, yeah. What did what do you mean something happened? Now they wanna find out what happened. And then I kind of go through it. And, and all the way I'm thinking about how do I find resonance? Like, how are they nodding their heads when I'm nodding my head when I'm writing this thing? Do we get to that place? We're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you build up this yeah. Of course. Yeah. You're yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. And you're like, yeah, why am I spending this fucking much money on this thing?

44:00

Like, I should own this by now. I think there's a line. Like, you should own this ship by now. Like,

Like, I should own this by now. I think there's a line. Like, you should own this ship by now. Like,

44:05

Sam, you've spent I don't know how much you've spent on like, you should own it by now. Come on. Right? And and and it's, you know, nothing against you. Right? It's like everyone who does this, it's like, wow.

Sam, you've spent I don't know how much you've spent on like, you should own it by now. Come on. Right? And and and it's, you know, nothing against you. Right? It's like everyone who does this, it's like, wow.

44:15

I mean, how much money have I spent on this thing? And I'm still spending. The old the old the metaphor that the SaaS companies used initially was like, just pay a couple bucks a month. No big deal. Right? Pay as you go. Only pay for what you need. But the problem is it's it's the renter pro and you reframed it as renter.

I mean, how much money have I spent on this thing? And I'm still spending. The old the old the metaphor that the SaaS companies used initially was like, just pay a couple bucks a month. No big deal. Right? Pay as you go. Only pay for what you need. But the problem is it's it's the renter pro and you reframed it as renter.

44:32

Right? Oh, yes. But you can get evicted. Yes. But you don't even own this thing. Yes. But they can raise them hike up the rents anytime they want. Right? And so reframing it as cool. Yeah. But you're you're a renter and they're the landlord. And all your data is owned by them, not you. Right. He calls it the church the church of recurring revenue. Church of recurring revenue. So it's done very well for a lot of followers and and and people who attend the church of procurement. But the thing is, like, some things make sense like this. Like, there's like a magazine or newspaper. Like, this is kinda old school. Right? But you pay subscription, but you'd get something new, literally every weekday month, whatever it was.

Right? Oh, yes. But you can get evicted. Yes. But you don't even own this thing. Yes. But they can raise them hike up the rents anytime they want. Right? And so reframing it as cool. Yeah. But you're you're a renter and they're the landlord. And all your data is owned by them, not you. Right. He calls it the church the church of recurring revenue. Church of recurring revenue. So it's done very well for a lot of followers and and and people who attend the church of procurement. But the thing is, like, some things make sense like this. Like, there's like a magazine or newspaper. Like, this is kinda old school. Right? But you pay subscription, but you'd get something new, literally every weekday month, whatever it was.

45:06

Software.

Software.

45:07

I know it's improving.

I know it's improving.

45:09

But it's improving around the marginal edges. You already have ninety percent of it on day one when you bought the damn thing. And so you're paying over and over and over and over for essentially

But it's improving around the marginal edges. You already have ninety percent of it on day one when you bought the damn thing. And so you're paying over and over and over and over for essentially

45:21

the same thing. And at some point, if you're paying a lot, you should be like, Well, I should own this by now. This is crazy.

the same thing. And at some point, if you're paying a lot, you should be like, Well, I should own this by now. This is crazy.

45:30

Tony, I wanted to kinda make that point and get people excited. And the lead people with some mystery. So there's It's not like the stealth thing where there's like, we're doing an AI thing. You enter your emails. Like, here's a story. It's all legit, but I'm still not gonna tell you exactly what it is. And, then we kind of, you know, eventually deliver the product. The the simple test, by the way, is, let's say you did buy Slack or whatever insert what your favorite product for one year. And then they did all these over the air updates, and they they, you know, they added this. They added that. They tweaked this. They fixed this bug.

Tony, I wanted to kinda make that point and get people excited. And the lead people with some mystery. So there's It's not like the stealth thing where there's like, we're doing an AI thing. You enter your emails. Like, here's a story. It's all legit, but I'm still not gonna tell you exactly what it is. And, then we kind of, you know, eventually deliver the product. The the simple test, by the way, is, let's say you did buy Slack or whatever insert what your favorite product for one year. And then they did all these over the air updates, and they they, you know, they added this. They added that. They tweaked this. They fixed this bug.

45:57

If they had just charged you for it one year, And then you could buy v two, you know, Slack two point o or the twenty twenty four version.

If they had just charged you for it one year, And then you could buy v two, you know, Slack two point o or the twenty twenty four version.

46:05

Would you buy the upgrade? Like, you know, we used to buy Windows ninety and then you would you would hear, you're like, oh, man. I heard whatever.

Would you buy the upgrade? Like, you know, we used to buy Windows ninety and then you would you would hear, you're like, oh, man. I heard whatever.

46:13

The next one, Vista or whatever it is. It's got all this new stuff. Okay. Maybe it's worth upgrading.

The next one, Vista or whatever it is. It's got all this new stuff. Okay. Maybe it's worth upgrading.

46:18

But, like, the reality is almost none of us would buy those up by the next edition because the upgrades are so marginal. Right? They're not, like, game changing.

But, like, the reality is almost none of us would buy those up by the next edition because the upgrades are so marginal. Right? They're not, like, game changing.

46:26

But you're charged for it as you go as if those are such game changing updates. Yeah. And, look, again,

But you're charged for it as you go as if those are such game changing updates. Yeah. And, look, again,

46:32

some products, like, we have a few products like this. Hey. SaaS tool, basecamp's SaaS tool. So we're in that world too. I totally get it.

some products, like, we have a few products like this. Hey. SaaS tool, basecamp's SaaS tool. So we're in that world too. I totally get it.

46:39

That said, we don't charge any of our customers more than two hundred ninety nine dollars a period flat. So with basecamp, you can have six thousand users. It's just two ninety nine flat, unlimited users at that point. So

That said, we don't charge any of our customers more than two hundred ninety nine dollars a period flat. So with basecamp, you can have six thousand users. It's just two ninety nine flat, unlimited users at that point. So

46:51

we don't

we don't

46:52

offer the same thing where people could be spending fifty, sixty grand or ten grand or five grand or three grand a month with us. Like, you could only spend two ninety nine a month max with basecamp So I don't feel as guilty, frankly, selling something like that, the, you know, compared to company, asking companies to spend tens of thousands. I get it's good for revenue. I get all that, but, man, I wouldn't feel

offer the same thing where people could be spending fifty, sixty grand or ten grand or five grand or three grand a month with us. Like, you could only spend two ninety nine a month max with basecamp So I don't feel as guilty, frankly, selling something like that, the, you know, compared to company, asking companies to spend tens of thousands. I get it's good for revenue. I get all that, but, man, I wouldn't feel

47:13

comfortable or confident.

comfortable or confident.

47:15

I I would feel like I'm ripping people off, frankly. So so how do you deal with the counterargument, which is You guys were first with with Camp Fire before Slack.

I I would feel like I'm ripping people off, frankly. So so how do you deal with the counterargument, which is You guys were first with with Camp Fire before Slack.

47:23

Slack comes out, kicks your butt, becomes a twenty something billion dollar company

Slack comes out, kicks your butt, becomes a twenty something billion dollar company

47:28

exits

exits

47:29

and blah blah blah. Sure. What do you do with that? Well, first off, Slack is it was an excellent product. It still is an excellent product, but at the time, it was way better than Camp Fire.

and blah blah blah. Sure. What do you do with that? Well, first off, Slack is it was an excellent product. It still is an excellent product, but at the time, it was way better than Camp Fire.

47:38

So we sort of let Campfire kinda wither.

So we sort of let Campfire kinda wither.

47:41

We we, you know, kind of didn't pioneer the idea. I IRC was before us, and there was chatting, but, like, we kind of pioneered this version of it to some degree, and we sort of let it sit and didn't really make it much better.

We we, you know, kind of didn't pioneer the idea. I IRC was before us, and there was chatting, but, like, we kind of pioneered this version of it to some degree, and we sort of let it sit and didn't really make it much better.

47:52

Slack came around and made a much better version of that idea. So full credit to them for that. I think another problem we had was that we were really early with Camp Fire. I remember When we launched Camp Fire in two thousand six, I don't know when Slack launched. I think it was, like, six years later or something like that. I couldn't get anyone to buy Camp Fire. People are like, why in the fuck would you use a chat tool? Like, what? Like, we're all in the same office. Like, just talk to people or whatever. Like, I don't even get it. Well, we we we used to use, like, Gmail chat. And then for a while, hip HipChat, which I hate. HipChat. Yeah. That was another one. Yep. Yeah. But as long as it's Gmail. You were on the edge though because a lot of people didn't even Like, Chad was, like, now everyone can't imagine working without it, but, like, it was not a thing that companies used. Individuals use it a lot. But company is just this persistent chat room was just not a thing.

Slack came around and made a much better version of that idea. So full credit to them for that. I think another problem we had was that we were really early with Camp Fire. I remember When we launched Camp Fire in two thousand six, I don't know when Slack launched. I think it was, like, six years later or something like that. I couldn't get anyone to buy Camp Fire. People are like, why in the fuck would you use a chat tool? Like, what? Like, we're all in the same office. Like, just talk to people or whatever. Like, I don't even get it. Well, we we we used to use, like, Gmail chat. And then for a while, hip HipChat, which I hate. HipChat. Yeah. That was another one. Yep. Yeah. But as long as it's Gmail. You were on the edge though because a lot of people didn't even Like, Chad was, like, now everyone can't imagine working without it, but, like, it was not a thing that companies used. Individuals use it a lot. But company is just this persistent chat room was just not a thing.

48:41

So because we were early on it, we kind of didn't think there was a future in it because it was selling okay, but not that well. And so we just didn't pour more energy into it, then along came slack. I remember, actually, he was mentioning Stewart Butterfield,

So because we were early on it, we kind of didn't think there was a future in it because it was selling okay, but not that well. And so we just didn't pour more energy into it, then along came slack. I remember, actually, he was mentioning Stewart Butterfield,

48:53

send me an email before they launched Slack.

send me an email before they launched Slack.

48:56

Uber friends. And he said, hey, just wanted to let you know. We're launching this thing. It's competitive with Camp Fire to some degree.

Uber friends. And he said, hey, just wanted to let you know. We're launching this thing. It's competitive with Camp Fire to some degree.

49:02

We're buddies. I just wanna, like, let you know. You know, like, that's cool. I remember looking at it the first time and, like, my stomach dropped. I'm like, oh, shit. We're dead. Or this thing is dead because it's fucking good. And the thing that impressed me the most about it was the onboarding experience.

We're buddies. I just wanna, like, let you know. You know, like, that's cool. I remember looking at it the first time and, like, my stomach dropped. I'm like, oh, shit. We're dead. Or this thing is dead because it's fucking good. And the thing that impressed me the most about it was the onboarding experience.

49:19

I think that, in my opinion, There's two things, of course, the the bot integration stuff was really innovative.

I think that, in my opinion, There's two things, of course, the the bot integration stuff was really innovative.

49:26

But the onboarding experience was so good where you basically talk to the chat and create your user account and stuff.

But the onboarding experience was so good where you basically talk to the chat and create your user account and stuff.

49:33

Those it just took in my opinion, those two things. The chat itself isn't better or worse.

Those it just took in my opinion, those two things. The chat itself isn't better or worse.

49:39

Chat is chat essentially.

Chat is chat essentially.

49:41

Onboarding and and and bots were the thing, and we didn't have them, and they crushed us. So Yeah. That's how I'd answer that question. Did you're, you're cool to me because you're

Onboarding and and and bots were the thing, and we didn't have them, and they crushed us. So Yeah. That's how I'd answer that question. Did you're, you're cool to me because you're

49:51

like it alright. So for the listener, go to basecamp dot com, go to hay dot com and once dot com. Your landing pages, like,

like it alright. So for the listener, go to basecamp dot com, go to hay dot com and once dot com. Your landing pages, like,

49:58

we're internet dorks, all three of us. Like, we're we're talking about, like, CRMs shit. Like, we're talking about, like, something that's not inherently like a punk rock thing, but you have, like, a punk rock vibe about you. Like, if you look at your landing pages, they're all, like, kinda cool and they're fun to read. And you make non cool things kind of cool.

we're internet dorks, all three of us. Like, we're we're talking about, like, CRMs shit. Like, we're talking about, like, something that's not inherently like a punk rock thing, but you have, like, a punk rock vibe about you. Like, if you look at your landing pages, they're all, like, kinda cool and they're fun to read. And you make non cool things kind of cool.

50:15

It's it's Yeah. For me, there's a degree of, like, mining for novelty and recognizing, like, what's interesting and what isn't, how people can look at something and go, oh, man, I never thought of that. But, of course, Like, that's what I'm always looking for. I wrote this this post recently about towel bars and hooks. I don't know if either of you saw it, but riveting.

It's it's Yeah. For me, there's a degree of, like, mining for novelty and recognizing, like, what's interesting and what isn't, how people can look at something and go, oh, man, I never thought of that. But, of course, Like, that's what I'm always looking for. I wrote this this post recently about towel bars and hooks. I don't know if either of you saw it, but riveting.

50:34

Ri riveting concept. You're ready? No. Okay. I'm not ready, but I'm sure it's great. What is it? So we're doing a bathroom renovation and and the designer, the architects, like, do you guys want hooks in your bathroom or towel bars?

Ri riveting concept. You're ready? No. Okay. I'm not ready, but I'm sure it's great. What is it? So we're doing a bathroom renovation and and the designer, the architects, like, do you guys want hooks in your bathroom or towel bars?

50:47

And for me, the choice was, like, it was so obvious. It's, like, hooks.

And for me, the choice was, like, it was so obvious. It's, like, hooks.

50:51

Hooked fun way. Up team hooks too in my house. Right. And it's, like, why? Well, For I'll give you a bunch of reasons. First of all, you can't screw up a hook. You can't mount it wrong, first of all.

Hooked fun way. Up team hooks too in my house. Right. And it's, like, why? Well, For I'll give you a bunch of reasons. First of all, you can't screw up a hook. You can't mount it wrong, first of all.

51:02

You can't use it wrong.

You can't use it wrong.

51:05

You can put other things besides towels on it.

You can put other things besides towels on it.

51:08

It doesn't take up any space.

It doesn't take up any space.

51:11

If you need to add a second one, there's room for that. And sometimes it's nice to have, like, a two hooks a few inches apart and you can kind of spread a towel so it dries a little bit better.

If you need to add a second one, there's room for that. And sometimes it's nice to have, like, a two hooks a few inches apart and you can kind of spread a towel so it dries a little bit better.

51:20

There's just all these reasons. And for me, I'm always looking for the hooks in product design. Like, what are the little things that just

There's just all these reasons. And for me, I'm always looking for the hooks in product design. Like, what are the little things that just

51:28

are are so simple and straightforward and everyone knows how to use them and you can't get it wrong and you can't use them wrong. And, actually, you can use them in a bunch of different ways that weren't intended. It still works compared to a towel bar. It's like the only thing you can use a towel bar for is to hang a towel or your nine year old will do a pull up on it and tear it off the wall. That's the only thing you can do with a with a towel bar, and and takes a lot of space. And, like, if you don't put the towel on just right, it slides off. Like, you can use it wrong so easily.

are are so simple and straightforward and everyone knows how to use them and you can't get it wrong and you can't use them wrong. And, actually, you can use them in a bunch of different ways that weren't intended. It still works compared to a towel bar. It's like the only thing you can use a towel bar for is to hang a towel or your nine year old will do a pull up on it and tear it off the wall. That's the only thing you can do with a with a towel bar, and and takes a lot of space. And, like, if you don't put the towel on just right, it slides off. Like, you can use it wrong so easily.

51:54

It's easier to use it wrong than it is to use it right. So that's why I like hooks. And so I'm always looking for these analogs

It's easier to use it wrong than it is to use it right. So that's why I like hooks. And so I'm always looking for these analogs

52:02

in other areas. I don't look at other software. Software doesn't really inspire me. Like, a hook will inspire me. A piece of architecture, a space, land, a tree, furniture

in other areas. I don't look at other software. Software doesn't really inspire me. Like, a hook will inspire me. A piece of architecture, a space, land, a tree, furniture

52:13

design,

design,

52:14

print design, I don't know, objects. That's the kind of stuff that I I look for motivation and inspiration in. I think there's a lot of really good ideas in there. So that's That's where this stuff comes from. And I'm like, oh, this is a hook, and this is a hook, and this is a hook. And, and, anyway, that's kinda how I think about it. One of my favorite things I did in my in the research for this. I'm because I'm always looking for in the research, it's like, what what are the big ideas or the important ideas, but they're not necessarily new to me? And then what are the new ideas? And one of the new ideas I thought you put out there was really great. Super nerd, but we're that's where we are right now. We're in the nerd zone. Which is really the place we should be all the time.

print design, I don't know, objects. That's the kind of stuff that I I look for motivation and inspiration in. I think there's a lot of really good ideas in there. So that's That's where this stuff comes from. And I'm like, oh, this is a hook, and this is a hook, and this is a hook. And, and, anyway, that's kinda how I think about it. One of my favorite things I did in my in the research for this. I'm because I'm always looking for in the research, it's like, what what are the big ideas or the important ideas, but they're not necessarily new to me? And then what are the new ideas? And one of the new ideas I thought you put out there was really great. Super nerd, but we're that's where we are right now. We're in the nerd zone. Which is really the place we should be all the time.

52:49

But you said, when prototyping always try the wacky or quirkier stuff first

But you said, when prototyping always try the wacky or quirkier stuff first

52:54

the deeper you go into a project, the more conservative it tends to get. Stranger ideas are more at home earlier in the process.

the deeper you go into a project, the more conservative it tends to get. Stranger ideas are more at home earlier in the process.

53:00

I love this. This is so true. I've never heard anybody say this. It's something that if you embrace it, you can actually, you know, Sam's old company. I think their only co company culture thing was let your freak flag fly.

I love this. This is so true. I've never heard anybody say this. It's something that if you embrace it, you can actually, you know, Sam's old company. I think their only co company culture thing was let your freak flag fly.

53:11

Yeah. It's like, that's what you wanna do in product design. There's also kinda good life advice too, which is the weirder, quirkier things are actually it's easier to get away with them and do them when you're you're early twenties versus when you're thirty seven. Right? Like, you tend to get more conservative. It's product development, it's life advice. I thought that was brilliant.

Yeah. It's like, that's what you wanna do in product design. There's also kinda good life advice too, which is the weirder, quirkier things are actually it's easier to get away with them and do them when you're you're early twenties versus when you're thirty seven. Right? Like, you tend to get more conservative. It's product development, it's life advice. I thought that was brilliant.

53:28

Thank you. I I we really take this to heart. And, the reason why is, like, for example, I'll take the calendar example again. If you're building a calendar and you think that there's all these table stakes features that you you, like, you need to be on par first with Google Calendar. Like, if you're like, you want people who are gonna buy this, like, if they're gonna use Google Calendar, they're gonna expect Google Calendar fidelity and functionality.

Thank you. I I we really take this to heart. And, the reason why is, like, for example, I'll take the calendar example again. If you're building a calendar and you think that there's all these table stakes features that you you, like, you need to be on par first with Google Calendar. Like, if you're like, you want people who are gonna buy this, like, if they're gonna use Google Calendar, they're gonna expect Google Calendar fidelity and functionality.

53:47

And then maybe we add a couple other things. Like, no one's gonna buy your thing because Google Calendar Google Calendar. Like, why just make that other thing with a couple other things?

And then maybe we add a couple other things. Like, no one's gonna buy your thing because Google Calendar Google Calendar. Like, why just make that other thing with a couple other things?

53:56

So we always start with the novelties, the things that don't exist anywhere else.

So we always start with the novelties, the things that don't exist anywhere else.

54:01

That's what makes your product differentiated. That's what makes it worth considering.

That's what makes your product differentiated. That's what makes it worth considering.

54:06

Like, to say, like, we make Google calendar a

Like, to say, like, we make Google calendar a

54:08

a little bit better, like,

a little bit better, like,

54:10

not worth it. But we made something totally different

not worth it. But we made something totally different

54:13

that it's not just different because it's different, but it's we actually think there's some novelties here that matter that makes sense. That are radically different in good ways.

that it's not just different because it's different, but it's we actually think there's some novelties here that matter that makes sense. That are radically different in good ways.

54:21

That's what we pile on early.

That's what we pile on early.

54:23

And to the other point of that quote is that If you just wait till the end to try to add those novelties, you'll never have enough time. You're always running out of time at the end, and you're never gonna try new things. You're not gonna have the tolerance or the

And to the other point of that quote is that If you just wait till the end to try to add those novelties, you'll never have enough time. You're always running out of time at the end, and you're never gonna try new things. You're not gonna have the tolerance or the

54:35

the the, the patients

the the, the patients

54:37

to to wander. So then you end up leaving those things out and then you never get around to them because once you launch to the public, The public then demands even more normal stuff. The public doesn't demand unusual things. The public demands normal stuff. It's on you to find the unusual things. The things they didn't consider, but once they see, they go, of course. Where's this been my whole life?

to to wander. So then you end up leaving those things out and then you never get around to them because once you launch to the public, The public then demands even more normal stuff. The public doesn't demand unusual things. The public demands normal stuff. It's on you to find the unusual things. The things they didn't consider, but once they see, they go, of course. Where's this been my whole life?

54:57

That's the kind of stuff. Basecamp is packed with these things, and, hey, is packed with these things, and hey, calendar's packed with these things. And those who use those tools understand that, those who don't, don't know, but

That's the kind of stuff. Basecamp is packed with these things, and, hey, is packed with these things, and hey, calendar's packed with these things. And those who use those tools understand that, those who don't, don't know, but

55:09

They are packed with things. You're like, oh my god.

They are packed with things. You're like, oh my god.

55:11

Where's this been my whole life? That's amazing.

Where's this been my whole life? That's amazing.

55:14

By the way, what do you do? You guys pull out, profit of years out of the LLC. I like that. You don't reinvest it. You basically get the benefit. Are you, like, a boring, kind of, like, index funds and bonds guy? Like, Sam, is more on the conservative kind of side. I'm more, like That eighty twenty index bond's life, baby. Yeah. My I'm, like, the two sexist words in English language are, like, exotic instrument It's like, oh, we got an exotic instrument for you. I'm like, tell me more. And then I regret it later. What do you what are you what are you looking for?

By the way, what do you do? You guys pull out, profit of years out of the LLC. I like that. You don't reinvest it. You basically get the benefit. Are you, like, a boring, kind of, like, index funds and bonds guy? Like, Sam, is more on the conservative kind of side. I'm more, like That eighty twenty index bond's life, baby. Yeah. My I'm, like, the two sexist words in English language are, like, exotic instrument It's like, oh, we got an exotic instrument for you. I'm like, tell me more. And then I regret it later. What do you what are you what are you looking for?

55:42

What's an exotic what's an exotic it's It's it's the thing that you're, you know, you're gonna lose money on. That's pretty relevant.

What's an exotic what's an exotic it's It's it's the thing that you're, you know, you're gonna lose money on. That's pretty relevant.

55:48

Gives you to lose money. It's called an exotic instrument. Code. I mean, our exotic instrument is our own business. That's where most of our risk is tied up. So so I'm more on on Sam's tip here, which is to be very conservative.

Gives you to lose money. It's called an exotic instrument. Code. I mean, our exotic instrument is our own business. That's where most of our risk is tied up. So so I'm more on on Sam's tip here, which is to be very conservative.

55:59

With with

With with

56:01

investments outside my business. So primarily index funds, I do invest in a few individual companies

investments outside my business. So primarily index funds, I do invest in a few individual companies

56:07

that I really know and really like and have liked for a long time. I might even know the CEO. I might have a good sense of who this company is and what they do. I'm not jumping on the meme stocks, that kind of thing. Right?

that I really know and really like and have liked for a long time. I might even know the CEO. I might have a good sense of who this company is and what they do. I'm not jumping on the meme stocks, that kind of thing. Right?

56:19

I have an advisor. I I've done some, like, other kinds of investing around, like,

I have an advisor. I I've done some, like, other kinds of investing around, like,

56:25

some some PE deals and some stuff like that. But primarily,

some some PE deals and some stuff like that. But primarily,

56:29

I'm pretty much straightforward index funds like play, the the US economy long term, and some maybe some other companies or countries economies, but primarily US.

I'm pretty much straightforward index funds like play, the the US economy long term, and some maybe some other companies or countries economies, but primarily US.

56:38

That's my main thing. I I also, like, I so I do that. And then I also like to spend money on things that I I enjoy, and then my family enjoys.

That's my main thing. I I also, like, I so I do that. And then I also like to spend money on things that I I enjoy, and then my family enjoys.

56:47

And but I I'm not a I'm not

And but I I'm not a I'm not

56:50

don't what I don't like to do is ever put myself at risk. I don't like to put my business at I'll take risks, but I don't take risks that put me at risk.

don't what I don't like to do is ever put myself at risk. I don't like to put my business at I'll take risks, but I don't take risks that put me at risk.

56:58

That is not an interesting risk for me. It seems like you value being able to sleep well at night. It's like, I just wanna be able to to sleep easy and not do anything that's gonna jeopardize that.

That is not an interesting risk for me. It seems like you value being able to sleep well at night. It's like, I just wanna be able to to sleep easy and not do anything that's gonna jeopardize that.

57:07

Right. Like, people ask in business all the you know, what keeps you up at night? And and typically the answer for most people is, like, some the competition, am I gonna be able to make payroll? For me, like, what keeps me up at night when I am up at night because of work? It's excitement.

Right. Like, people ask in business all the you know, what keeps you up at night? And and typically the answer for most people is, like, some the competition, am I gonna be able to make payroll? For me, like, what keeps me up at night when I am up at night because of work? It's excitement.

57:20

Like, I can't wait to start working tomorrow on this thing that we're working on. It's it's not it's not like because our our margins it's not like our margins are razor thin and might not be able to make payroll or

Like, I can't wait to start working tomorrow on this thing that we're working on. It's it's not it's not like because our our margins it's not like our margins are razor thin and might not be able to make payroll or

57:31

I'm focused on the competition hyper focused. So, like, they launched something new, and now my god. What are we gonna do? Like, that one Slack moment I did have was was one of those moments. That was years ago.

I'm focused on the competition hyper focused. So, like, they launched something new, and now my god. What are we gonna do? Like, that one Slack moment I did have was was one of those moments. That was years ago.

57:42

I'm I just wanna sleep well. I don't I stop work at five. I don't talk about work with my family at all. We just don't it's just not a thing. It's a separate thing that I do during the day. And I get excited about sometimes at night because I'm just excited about ideas.

I'm I just wanna sleep well. I don't I stop work at five. I don't talk about work with my family at all. We just don't it's just not a thing. It's a separate thing that I do during the day. And I get excited about sometimes at night because I'm just excited about ideas.

57:56

But it's also recognition David and I both practice this idea of, like, negative visualization.

But it's also recognition David and I both practice this idea of, like, negative visualization.

58:01

Basically, look, look, we've been at this twenty five years. We've done exceptionally well, we've been incredibly fortunate. If this thing all flames out in two years because of something we we did wrong,

Basically, look, look, we've been at this twenty five years. We've done exceptionally well, we've been incredibly fortunate. If this thing all flames out in two years because of something we we did wrong,

58:12

a major market shift,

a major market shift,

58:14

competitive shift, whatever it is. You know what? Like, that's okay too. It's well, be painful to some degree.

competitive shift, whatever it is. You know what? Like, that's okay too. It's well, be painful to some degree.

58:21

But, like, it's okay. If we if we have a twenty seven year run,

But, like, it's okay. If we if we have a twenty seven year run,

58:25

jeez.

jeez.

58:26

I mean, what more can you ask for? Now,

I mean, what more can you ask for? Now,

58:29

People lose their jobs, and it would suck. I'm very certain many almost everyone who works here can get another job somewhere else very quickly.

People lose their jobs, and it would suck. I'm very certain many almost everyone who works here can get another job somewhere else very quickly.

58:35

We would help people, all those things. I mean, I don't want this to happen. But if it did, we'd be okay. This is not my identity. This is not my life. This is not something that needs to exist forever.

We would help people, all those things. I mean, I don't want this to happen. But if it did, we'd be okay. This is not my identity. This is not my life. This is not something that needs to exist forever.

58:45

I don't wanna feel that level of obligation to it as much as I have a lot of responsibility and feel obligated to our customers and to our employees and to the ideas that we have it's not the whole world.

I don't wanna feel that level of obligation to it as much as I have a lot of responsibility and feel obligated to our customers and to our employees and to the ideas that we have it's not the whole world.

58:56

That's just an important thing for me. Sean and I are in similar positions,

That's just an important thing for me. Sean and I are in similar positions,

59:00

where we have profitable businesses And a question that I'm trying to figure out is what percentage of the profit profits to pull out,

where we have profitable businesses And a question that I'm trying to figure out is what percentage of the profit profits to pull out,

59:09

versus reinvest? Do you have a framework for deciding, like, that percentage? Especially earlier on. Right? Maybe in year twenty seven, the answer is different than in year three or two.

versus reinvest? Do you have a framework for deciding, like, that percentage? Especially earlier on. Right? Maybe in year twenty seven, the answer is different than in year three or two.

59:18

Yeah. So I can only tell you what we've done, which is, again, a little bit unusual. We pull out everything at the end of the year. Now first of all, we're an LLC. So we're taxed

Yeah. So I can only tell you what we've done, which is, again, a little bit unusual. We pull out everything at the end of the year. Now first of all, we're an LLC. So we're taxed

59:26

on everything at a personal level. So if I leave money in the business, I'm still paying personal income tax on that money. It doesn't really make sense to do that. So we have a recurring, you know, recurring revenue model with very predictable revenue. So we basically have a little bit of overlap. You know, we take some money out in quarterly distributions,

on everything at a personal level. So if I leave money in the business, I'm still paying personal income tax on that money. It doesn't really make sense to do that. So we have a recurring, you know, recurring revenue model with very predictable revenue. So we basically have a little bit of overlap. You know, we take some money out in quarterly distributions,

59:42

And there's some money left over in January, and we kinda wait till April to take it all out. So there's some overlap and they have operating cash. Right?

And there's some money left over in January, and we kinda wait till April to take it all out. So there's some overlap and they have operating cash. Right?

59:49

When we were I first started the business in nineteen ninety nine, we were an agency.

When we were I first started the business in nineteen ninety nine, we were an agency.

59:55

And we our first client

And we our first client

59:57

just it was four of us.

just it was four of us.

59:59

Three partners, one certain employee.

Three partners, one certain employee.

01:00:02

We each put ten grand in so we have thirty grand, to start the business.

We each put ten grand in so we have thirty grand, to start the business.

01:00:07

And then our first customer was was HP. HP was, like, giving everyone business way back then HP was, like, the hot company to get a gig with because they paid a lot. And I think the gig was a few hundred grand to do some website design for them. This is ninety nine where people are paying numbers like that. And,

And then our first customer was was HP. HP was, like, giving everyone business way back then HP was, like, the hot company to get a gig with because they paid a lot. And I think the gig was a few hundred grand to do some website design for them. This is ninety nine where people are paying numbers like that. And,

01:00:23

From that point on, we were profitable because we only had a few people. We didn't take big salaries.

From that point on, we were profitable because we only had a few people. We didn't take big salaries.

01:00:29

And that was that. We were able to pull out all the money every year because, actually, we started out as a C corp for, like, a couple of years, and then we switched to an LLC.

And that was that. We were able to pull out all the money every year because, actually, we started out as a C corp for, like, a couple of years, and then we switched to an LLC.

01:00:37

But regardless, we pulled out all the money,

But regardless, we pulled out all the money,

01:00:41

at the end of the year, essentially.

at the end of the year, essentially.

01:00:43

And because we had ongoing

And because we had ongoing

01:00:45

client work

client work

01:00:46

that would sort of span the gap of the calendar year. So we just always had money coming in, and our costs were so low that we weren't ever starving. You know? So it just it just was a situation where we always had high margins, and that's how I've always run the business. So

that would sort of span the gap of the calendar year. So we just always had money coming in, and our costs were so low that we weren't ever starving. You know? So it just it just was a situation where we always had high margins, and that's how I've always run the business. So

01:01:01

I I know it's an unusual setup.

I I know it's an unusual setup.

01:01:03

But I do think it doesn't have to be quite as unusual. I think what ends up happening is companies hire too many people. Their payrolls if too many people on payroll. They spend too much money in customer acquisition, and their costs are really high. So their margins are very low if there's margins at all. And then it's very hard.

But I do think it doesn't have to be quite as unusual. I think what ends up happening is companies hire too many people. Their payrolls if too many people on payroll. They spend too much money in customer acquisition, and their costs are really high. So their margins are very low if there's margins at all. And then it's very hard.

01:01:18

It's much it just becomes a much harder business to run. Now, again, like, there's a lot of luck involved with this. We happen to find a way somehow to have very, very healthy margins over two decades.

It's much it just becomes a much harder business to run. Now, again, like, there's a lot of luck involved with this. We happen to find a way somehow to have very, very healthy margins over two decades.

01:01:31

Part of that though is, again, the cost side of it, which is just not considered enough. Do you run any paid ads? No. Not right now. We we have explored that. We we played with it. So here's the thing. Like, last year, we're gonna spend five million bucks for the first time ever on, like, ads.

Part of that though is, again, the cost side of it, which is just not considered enough. Do you run any paid ads? No. Not right now. We we have explored that. We we played with it. So here's the thing. Like, last year, we're gonna spend five million bucks for the first time ever on, like, ads.

01:01:46

We started getting into it in a few months, so we spent a bunch of money. And we're like, this is just it just

We started getting into it in a few months, so we spent a bunch of money. And we're like, this is just it just

01:01:52

It's vanity money because, like, this isn't doing anything for us. Now someone might say who's listening, oh, you gotta give it more than three months in six months and eight months. You gotta do this five years before you show returns, and you gotta try a bunch of campaigns. We just don't have the tolerance to spend that kind of money on something that isn't very clearly going to return for us. Also, our price points are so low. Our customer acquisition costs are tricky because

It's vanity money because, like, this isn't doing anything for us. Now someone might say who's listening, oh, you gotta give it more than three months in six months and eight months. You gotta do this five years before you show returns, and you gotta try a bunch of campaigns. We just don't have the tolerance to spend that kind of money on something that isn't very clearly going to return for us. Also, our price points are so low. Our customer acquisition costs are tricky because

01:02:14

a lot of our competitors,

a lot of our competitors,

01:02:15

they're selling things for thousands and thousands a month. We're selling things for base camp is fifteen bucks per user per month,

they're selling things for thousands and thousands a month. We're selling things for base camp is fifteen bucks per user per month,

01:02:21

or two ninety nine unlimited. Like, there's not a lot of play here.

or two ninety nine unlimited. Like, there's not a lot of play here.

01:02:26

To really invest a lot and spend a lot to to acquire a customer. So it just doesn't work for us, so we don't do anything, not even branded keywords. We occasionally do that.

To really invest a lot and spend a lot to to acquire a customer. So it just doesn't work for us, so we don't do anything, not even branded keywords. We occasionally do that.

01:02:34

If someone's like using our our brand, we kinda wanna knock them out. But essentially, we just don't it's all through our own channels, you know, that we've developed over the years.

If someone's like using our our brand, we kinda wanna knock them out. But essentially, we just don't it's all through our own channels, you know, that we've developed over the years.

01:02:43

And

And

01:02:44

there's no question in my mind that there is a formula that we don't know

there's no question in my mind that there is a formula that we don't know

01:02:48

that we could

that we could

01:02:49

figure out at some point, perhaps, to

figure out at some point, perhaps, to

01:02:53

grow the company in a big way somehow through marketing, advertising, targeted, whatever's.

grow the company in a big way somehow through marketing, advertising, targeted, whatever's.

01:02:59

We just don't have the to take the tolerance for it, frankly. I just don't think that we're interested enough in that kind of growth. And the answer is always like, why grow that much? Like,

We just don't have the to take the tolerance for it, frankly. I just don't think that we're interested enough in that kind of growth. And the answer is always like, why grow that much? Like,

01:03:08

If you're trying to sell the company at some point, like, growth rates really matter, but, like, for us, sustainability matters, profits matter, margins matter, I don't wanna eat into those for some future or whatever. It doesn't really matter. Again, like, if we were to sell the business in a couple years,

If you're trying to sell the company at some point, like, growth rates really matter, but, like, for us, sustainability matters, profits matter, margins matter, I don't wanna eat into those for some future or whatever. It doesn't really matter. Again, like, if we were to sell the business in a couple years,

01:03:22

and we got a ten x multiple or five x multiple, but coulda had a fifteen x I just don't it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter to me to spend all that money trying to search for that. I'd rather just take the money out and put it into investments that I can basically

and we got a ten x multiple or five x multiple, but coulda had a fifteen x I just don't it doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter to me to spend all that money trying to search for that. I'd rather just take the money out and put it into investments that I can basically

01:03:37

gar not guarantee, but, like, have a really good sense of return on. And and just do our thing our own way. Dude, you're the man. I think that if I had to make, like, a Mount Rushboard,

gar not guarantee, but, like, have a really good sense of return on. And and just do our thing our own way. Dude, you're the man. I think that if I had to make, like, a Mount Rushboard,

01:03:46

a mount or a mount rush word of this podcast, like, you know, I think Sean opened it up by saying, we love people who carve their own path. And I don't care if that person is an entrepreneur or an artist or a mother, like, just someone who likes to says, this is the way I want the world beast, and I'm gonna live that way.

a mount or a mount rush word of this podcast, like, you know, I think Sean opened it up by saying, we love people who carve their own path. And I don't care if that person is an entrepreneur or an artist or a mother, like, just someone who likes to says, this is the way I want the world beast, and I'm gonna live that way.

01:04:01

I admire that greatly. And the way that you write, the way that you think, you're you're kinda on my Mount rush I really admire you, and I'm incredibly I know we both are incredibly thankful that you, spent some time with us. You're the man. It's very kind. I I I love the show, by the way, I listen to it. It's great.

I admire that greatly. And the way that you write, the way that you think, you're you're kinda on my Mount rush I really admire you, and I'm incredibly I know we both are incredibly thankful that you, spent some time with us. You're the man. It's very kind. I I I love the show, by the way, I listen to it. It's great.

01:04:18

And, I I really appreciate being here. Thanks for, the time and the questions. And happy to do it again anytime. I could go for hours with you guys if you ever want you have a,

And, I I really appreciate being here. Thanks for, the time and the questions. And happy to do it again anytime. I could go for hours with you guys if you ever want you have a,

01:04:27

you have, an open invitation whenever you wanna Whenever you want. Well, I'm not gonna invite myself on. I did this time, actually kinda sort of. So will not do that again. If you ever wanna talk again, I'm available. Let me know. Thanks for doing this, Jason. We appreciate you. That's the pod. Thank you.

you have, an open invitation whenever you wanna Whenever you want. Well, I'm not gonna invite myself on. I did this time, actually kinda sort of. So will not do that again. If you ever wanna talk again, I'm available. Let me know. Thanks for doing this, Jason. We appreciate you. That's the pod. Thank you.

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