00:00
Most internet entrepreneurs when they get into starting businesses, they do things that are either black hat or gray hat, and then they realize
00:07
gotta do things legit because I don't wanna go to jail and I can make more money doing things ethically
00:12
and not breaking the law. Like you just like make so much more money being legit.
00:17
How on Earth did you not learn that lesson earlier?
00:27
Alright. Today's pod is interesting. We just had Billy McFarlane in. He's famous for the Fire Festival thing, which basically was this, like, huge coachella type event that went viral four years ago, and he ended up committing a ton of crimes that he admitted to and
00:43
was a charged and convicted of, like, twenty five or thirty million dollars with a fraud. We just had him on the pod. Very confusing pod, Sean, I think. Not confusing, but, but, like, mixed emotions.
00:54
Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, he's an interesting guy. He's also,
00:58
complicated like most people. And,
01:01
You know, I I don't know. I think we I think it was pretty interesting. We talked about a bunch of things. We talked about kinda his
01:07
origin story, how he got to the Fire Festival and almost like where it all went wrong. So where did he start making,
01:14
you know, mistakes and then eventually committing crimes?
01:18
We talked about life in prison and what that was like in solitary confinement and things like that. We talked about what he's doing now, how he's trying to come back. And, me and Sam are a little bit hard on his new idea, I would say. Well, to the point of If this was a normal if this was just a normal person, random person on the street, I would not have been as harsh,
01:38
but I felt like I I don't know. For whatever reason, I felt like I had the license to be a little harsh on this one.
01:43
We talked about that. We talked about other ideas about what he could do or other opportune business opportunities he sees.
01:49
Pretty fascinating guy.
01:51
Very fascinating guy. The thing that, like,
01:54
that sits bad with me is
01:57
or makes me confused as he's very likable. He's a very likable person incredibly charming, very charismatic,
02:04
and I want him to win, but
02:07
He did a lot of really bad shit. And he seems a little a little coached in the sense that he's, like, right up front, we'll say,
02:14
what I did was terrible. I deserve no sympathy.
02:18
You know, I was wrong, and I was an idiot. Right? And he's very quick to kind of own that, which is great. You'd want somebody to own it. But it's also I think
02:27
that's somebody who's who understands.
02:29
Okay. I this is the message. I gotta stay on this message.
02:32
And,
02:33
I I gotta make it really clear where I stand on that.
02:36
It's like when you have, like, a star football player, a star athlete in in high school and you see them, like, doing bad shit off the field and you're like, dude, you have it all man. You've got the talent. Please don't blow this. It it hurts us all to see someone with so many gifts do such bad shit. And that's a little bit how I felt with this. And,
02:56
yeah, I'm I say this in the end, but I'm eager to see how this story ends. I'm gonna be following it. And I think it was a good pod. Ben, our producer, Ben, thought, it went great. He was messaging us during it, but I, I think people will like it. Yep. Alright. Enjoy. Alright. Let's just get right into this. So it sounds like you have, like, staff. Like, you just ask somebody to get you a coffee. So are you, Are you back? I mean, you're you're you're in the mix again. You're working? Yeah. Broke as hell and,
03:23
taking advantage of, you know, anybody I can get to help me try to rebuild and start making things right. And do you have, like, a crazy
03:31
restitution
03:32
thing? So, we should exploit kind of what the So this is Billy. Billy created
03:38
Fire Festival most notably. You may have seen that, I don't know, the documentaries or whatever.
03:43
You just got out of prison, but one of the things that's associated with it is you have, like,
03:48
more than twenty million or something that you have to pay back in restitution to some combination of investors,
03:55
creditors,
03:56
people like that. How does that work? You do you have to give them, like, every dollar, or is it a certain percentage? Like, how does that work? Because that's a deep, deep hole.
04:05
Yeah. And it's brittle. I'm, like, I just can't think about that that big number because then, you know, I'll sort of lose track about, like, what's happening today and tomorrow.
04:13
So how it works is that I have to pay a percentage of all my personal income you know, directly back to restitution?
04:19
Like, after taxes.
04:21
They they calculated on just, like, gross income. So totally pre tax income. So it'd make, like, a thousand dollars this week. I have a set percentage I have to pay on that thousand dollars. But what is in addition to this? What's the what's the percent? Is it like crazy or is it like five percent? It it's more than five. I'm not sure. Like, where it's gonna end up, it varies based on income. So I know what I have to pay right now, but I think it gets readjusted every couple of months. And then In addition to that, pirates giving ten percent of all its revenue back to restitution as well. So the pirate gets a hundred k sponsorship deal. Like, it'll pay ten k right away. And then whatever I get as my, like, salary or income, I'll pay an additional percentage on top of that. So I'm just trying to pay more than I have to.
05:02
Why are you doing this right now? Why are you I mean, like, you know, you're in a different situation. I I I firmly believe that I I I listen to your pod the pods that you've done. I've watched the documentary. I've read a little bit. Like, you made a massive mistake. So -- Yeah. -- I think that you you
05:18
you deserved to be punished. And so I don't feel sorry for that. For I don't feel sorry for you for having to do that. I think five years is or four years, however much you served. That's That's a lot. So my my current stance is, like, everyone deserves a second chance. And if you if you do the crime and you have to do the time, like,
05:36
there should be a point where it's like, alright. You screwed up. You get a you can try again. I feel that. But when I see you doing this podcast push right now, I'm like,
05:45
Should we is he taking advantage of us? Like, why is this guy doing this right now? Why is he what what is he gonna what's he trying to sell or or is this therapeutic or are you just trying to make a living? Which, you know, what what's what's your motivation between this recent push?
06:00
Yeah. So, like, first of all, totally deserved what I got.
06:04
And sorry. I think there's, like, days where I felt like I got too much time. There's days where I felt like I didn't get enough just, like, based on everything else happening in the world. So
06:13
deserve it was coming and, like, definitely not looking for sympathy.
06:17
I think there's two things here. One is that by doing these podcasts, I'm getting great, like, inbound deal flow. So
06:23
if three or four companies are listening to this, you know, like, oh, wait. Actually does know how to market. He can get us attention, and they'll come and hire me. Like, that's amazing because that's my entire purpose of, like, doing this small media run right now. I think it's like looking at your Twitter comments a little bit this morning before I came on the show. A lot of people and other hosts have gotten the same feedback as, like, why the hell would you give a con artist, like, any time of day.
06:46
Love your love your response, but I think the response to all those people is like What did I say? Which which was one for
06:52
You said, like, maybe an interesting conversation that will get us money. So, like, I like
06:58
transparency.
06:59
I said I said, an interesting person
07:02
or, a cure, an interesting person that would have an interesting conversation, and it will get us a lot of views.
07:08
I think that's cool. I think I think other people haven't been able to say that. So I think that's great. But I think to them is that anybody who has taken life to the extreme or too far has learned, like, a lot of good and bad lessons from that. So, like, they can use me. Right? And if there's, like, one entrepreneur here who's trying to raise money and he or she thinks, like, shit. This is a little harder than I thought sixty days ago, and they're about to send out that monthly investor update. Don't fuck up your numbers. Like, don't go over the top to to raise that cash. And, like, if I can stop one person, really cool. But, I mean, they're under the spectrum if there's somebody who's going about it, honestly, under scared to kind of take that leap. Like, if I can inspire them to go and try to make their brand pop off, really cool as well. So I think there is lessons to be learned and people could kind of use all of my mistakes to help them wherever they are in their entrepreneurial journey. And you you are kind of a hustler. So you,
08:00
we'll kind of go fast through it. But you you basically, when you're in middle school, started creating projects, I I don't even wanna say company because, like, you know, I don't know how how much of a company it is when you're in middle school, but, like, you were building
08:13
products and, launching them as websites. That's right. Is that right? Like, in middle school,
08:18
Yeah. Just basically started doing super basic HTML CSS in, like, fifth and sixth grade. And so this is what, twenty, twenty one, twenty two years ago. And it was pretty much like the wild, wild West days of the internet
08:30
and started a couple of, like, web hosting companies and basic social networks, and now it's really my foray into
08:35
the world of entrepreneurship and technology. So you you bake those sites, you end up selling them, or you sold at least one of them,
08:43
for, like,
08:44
What? Like,
08:46
a big way and a small win? What what would you do when you were kind of, like, you probably That was in sixth and seventh grade. Yeah. Yeah. These are a couple thousands of dollars. So, like, life changing to, you know, okay to just want to buy candy. But, and, at this point, kind of irrelevant, but I think, like, kinda got me into the game.
09:02
Started a little bit of a bigger media site called twenty four seen in high school and sold that
09:09
Yes. So I went to a company called Buddy TV out of Seattle when I was sixteen. What what did that do? What what was twenty fourteen? It was a content network, and I love the TV show at twenty four. So it was basically clipping,
09:20
you know, snippets of the twenty four show, and this is before streaming. So it's hard to get hour twenty four. Yeah. Exactly. So it's hard to get, like, actual media of the shows. This is all based on, like, you know, Fox, like, aired it, and then it really was very little media afterwards. So I was taking, like, the show that aired and clipping it up and ended up doing it for a half a dozen TV shows. And I had this business partner at the time who was in his mid thirties in Michigan Well, I never met. And he, like, orchestrated the sale, and then he paid me out on Western Union every two weeks for, like, the remainder of my high school. So that was pretty crazy. How how much did you how much did you make through that? It was, like, tens of thousands of dollars. Like, but at the time, it was it was wild for me. And from there is you you went to school and you you graduated, but you never had a a a real job. Did you?
10:08
Went to college,
10:10
basically started living off of my twenty fourteen capital under this little suitcase under my bed, my freshman year of college, And for the first time, I started going out, like, going to night clubs, going to dinners, like, exploring what every eighteen year old, I think man, like, wants to see what's out there in the world, and blew all my cash in a couple of months. So I'm like, shit. Now I'm broke, sitting in my college, and it's like small town. I can't afford to, like, try to find a car to take me to New York City anymore. Like, what can I do? So got back to what I knew, which was basic programming,
10:40
and started a social networking website called Spling during my freshman year of college. And that introduced me to this entire world of, like, venture capital and Angel investing
10:49
and essentially dropped out of school
10:52
halfway ish through my freshman year to to work on spring. And then I started this whole, like, run of venture capital backed startups.
10:59
My,
11:01
my wife,
11:02
through friends of friends somehow,
11:04
had some run ins with you at Penn. Like, like, a pair and she she would, like, good run ins or, you know, she, someone you you must have dated someone to reference was of someone and she it she, they would tell me stories of about, they're like, yeah, we knew him and he would always rent like these fat cars and drive us all and pay for everything to go to New York City from Philly.
11:27
And, like, he we just thought, like, he just had some business and no one knew what it was. No. It wasn't anything inappropriate, but it was just, like, he just, like,
11:35
just we all do. It's this guy who must have had some money through through some internet companies and he
11:41
he treated all of us on a regular basis.
11:44
Yeah. So I went to went to Philly for a company called Dream Adventures, which is kind of like this accelerator incubator program. And, you know, I was dating a girl at the time who is, like, I think it's a sophomore now at Penn. So I should have been a sophomore in school. So all my, like, peers and friends were were in college and, like, I'd be, like, at dream at trying to raise money by day, and then, like, at the terrible, like, college parties by night, and then, obviously, trying to take them to New York.
12:06
So what what triggered the switch from, like,
12:10
I'm a kid programmer who likes to make hobbyist website like, you know, scenes from my favorite TV show twenty four to, like, I'm trying to be the man because it seems like at some point, you all your business ventures switch to, like,
12:22
things that were super cool. Right? You did the black card credit card thing.
12:27
You did fire, obviously, which was, like, you know, the next Kachella.
12:31
So
12:32
at some point, you switch from, like,
12:34
kinda hobbyist websites to
12:37
how do I be the cool guy, you know, the big man on campus type of thing? What what triggered that that switch for you?
12:43
Yeah. I think that's a good question. And it was almost, like, I was living these alternative lives and not really fitting in with either one. I was a college kid, but trying to raise money from venture capitalists when, you know, at my little school, majority of the students haven't heard of the word, like, venture capital in their life. Meant to either go hang out with these venture capitalists who are titans of industry or, you know, successful angel investors and kinda go back to the college realm. So I was always kind of interested in merging the two worlds. So when I'm hanging out with the VCs, the college kids all want access to this, and they would hire me to help, like, market or consult.
13:14
Those kind of hustling and trying to make side income to to fund a lifestyle and trying to kind of keep up with this new world that my basic programming had been giving me access to. And then at what point so the it was like your first kinda it wasn't a real win. Like, you didn't exit, but you raised, I think, four or six million dollars. Was that the the magni is it called Magnesis?
13:38
Yes. So,
13:40
turn nineteen, graduated from the dream adventures,
13:43
moved, splitting to the second ever WeWork labs, down on Barrick Street in New York. And I was there at WeWork now around. He's like thirty ish, you know, hustling entrepreneurs,
13:53
all trying to make it. I'm a kid.
13:55
And went out to dinner, but just like a group of these friends are starting to meet in New York who are a little bit older, a little bit more established. And one of them pulls out this black American Express and sharing on card and kinda slams it on the table to show off. And I'm like, fuck. I have forty dollars in my Chase account. Like, how how can I do this? Went back to my WeWork office, went online to Alibaba before Alibaba was really like a mainstream thing, particularly like in New York in the US.
14:20
Bought
14:21
these
14:22
black metal
14:24
cards and bought a credit card copier. They kinda came in the mail took my Chase blue debit card, copied it onto this black card, went to the pizza place across the street from the WeWork, guy was treating me like I was royalty, went back into the office and just saw these cards to all the entrepreneurs in the WeWork Office. And then Magnesis is born.
14:42
And how big did that business get before it,
14:45
before it went south? So my music did total, like, eleven twelve ish million in revenue over three years.
14:52
And
14:53
my biggest mistake was getting distracted by fire in the fire festival, and I understand this is forwarding, like, years in advance. But
15:00
in the run up to fire festival for the four or five months, I just started trying to get money from anywhere and everywhere and basically milked the Magnesys customer base as much as I could. And then when fire crashed Magnesys went down with it So and it's not seeing it through with such a fuck up. But Magnesis was just it was just literally like, it's not a bank account. It was just literally the physical card as well as some perks. Like, you would get, like, discounts to certain concerts. I guess this is where Fire kinda got inspiration from. Yes. Discounts to certain clubs I guess or like a discount to like a private jet service. So you just must have negotiated
15:35
the deals or probably even white labeled like some other company that had found cool deals and you for three hundred dollars, you got the sick,
15:44
card, like literally physically just a card with your same bank account. You had access to, like, a townhouse I forget what you called it, a townhouse.
15:51
Mhmm. And you got go to some parties, and you got some perks. Is that basically the model? Exactly. Then what was really interesting though was the members we're bringing all the perks and benefits. So initially, I sold these cards. And so now let's say we sold a couple hundred cards, I'm like, wow, our member base is super interesting, whether they're entrepreneurs,
16:08
there are people in all these different industries that my friends don't really have access to. Like, let's get a space where they can all come and connect.
16:15
So I went and rented a series of lost in townhouse that I couldn't afford where basically members can come and hang out anytime. And then as Magnesis grew, we just built an app where members would come to us saying, hey, work at this brand, whether it's, like, this plane company, this fitness studio, this fashion brand, let's do something special for the rest of the members. And they would basically pay us to advertise and give access to cool shit to the members, and the members would pay us an annual fee to get access to these perks. Was kind of interesting where we're making money from both sides and then relying on the actual member base to create the offering.
16:47
Was it profitable? So
16:50
I was just so bad with financial management that we raised, you know, a a few million bucks for Magnesis, but we never had more than two months of runway in the entire history of the company. So I'd raised a round, and, like, eighty percent of that round was already spent in terms of, like, bills owed to employees, contractors, agencies, whatever, it's, like, always a kiss of death. Like, okay, raised a million bucks, but fuck. I owe eight hundred grand, and now we have two months of runway left. I think my biggest inability was to communicate, like, that problem to investors. I just kept saying, like, things are great. You know, you'll raise a million bucks and we're off to the races. I couldn't just, like, really explain how much we needed and why we needed it. And that caused us to have to basically become profitable super early on. So
17:30
just started monetizing the user base way more than I should have. Which I think diminished the value of the brand. And for, like, the last year and a half to two years of magnesium, like, we weren't profitable, but we were paying all of our bills just based on revenue. Just like try to monetize too quickly and too fast to keep up with my, like, crazy expenses.
17:48
But even Magisia Magnesis had issues. Like, there's, like, stories of, like, you know, the the members saying, we thought we are buying tickets to blank, but turns out, like, we didn't actually have them or maybe like Hamilton tickets. I think there was a story around that. Like you even had issues then.
18:03
What what
18:06
what what were the what were those issues?
18:09
So when Fire Festival came and I started going down this terrible rabbit hole, I needed money from everywhere and anywhere, and that included
18:17
overselling and trying to overpromise things to Magnesis members to get that capital. And it just, like, took everything down. And, like, I I was wrong, and I was, like, lying everywhere, thinking I could make these miracles happen. And sometimes we did, but more often than not, we we crashed and burned at the end. So it just, like, totally just, like, lost track of all the good that was happening. And I know you you feel bad and you probably feel, you know, some shame and all all all these negative things. Do you ever just laugh at, like,
18:45
wow, what the hell, like,
18:47
What did I do? Where did this go? How great? How far did this thing go?
18:53
It's like there's a reason there's documentaries about it. It's it's literally like a movie. Is there any part of you
18:59
that just sort of looks at this and says I can't believe
19:04
how far I let this thing go and how far it went?
19:07
Totally. And, like, I was, like, looking in and trying to think through the SBF scenario, you know, for the past couple of weeks.
19:13
And I think at the end of the day, like, he's obviously in a completely different stratosphere, but it's really in his position. It's really hard to say no to someone with ten billion dollars. Right? I don't care, like, how smart or how wealthy you are. So much of our decision making process is based on social proof. And when you need someone with that kind of capital, it immediately checks off all these, like, subconscious boxes
19:35
that create this phenomenon of social proof. And I think that, like, to a much larger scale, that's what happened to him. But it also happened to me. We're thousands of customers or thousands of members and all these talent and artists who are promoting the brand. That was in a position where I was just like way too young, way too immature, and people who should have
19:55
helped me, were almost scared to say no, and I kinda, like, relished and thrived off of that. And this led me down this terrible terrible rabbit hole And when they started saying no, I was too, like, in my own head where, oh, you know, I pulled just pulled this off and proved wrong before. I just, like, didn't know how to press that red button to stop. That was, like, one of my biggest issues.
20:14
I think the reason you're interesting
20:17
because
20:18
every entrepreneur we have a lot of, I mean, people who, like, listen to this pot are, like, entrepreneurial And everyone,
20:23
like, most internet entrepreneurs when they get into starting businesses, they do things that are either black hat or gray hat, and then they realize
20:30
they realize, like, okay, this is sick. I know how to make money, like, I'm proficient at this skill set, but, like, I gotta do things legit. Because I'm gonna make way more money if I and I did the same thing. I used to do these like, I mean, I've
20:42
done criminal shit as well. And I'm like, what the hell am I thinking? I should do things the right way because I don't wanna go to jail and I can make more money doing things ethically
20:51
and not breaking the law. Like you just like make so much more money being legit.
20:56
How on Earth did you not learn that lesson earlier?
20:59
I think just craziest thing is I didn't know
21:02
really what failure was until I failed on such a massive scale.
21:07
I think part of what let me go so far is I obviously had as many losses, if not more than every other entrepreneur along the journey. I was really good or I guess really bad at blocking
21:17
out that noise. And I was so focused on, like, this end goal of Nothing else matters. Like, let me put my blinders on and just, like, keep running forward. And
21:26
I just kept getting jaded to failures until the failure became so big that I'm locked in solitary confinement. And what was the end goal? Like, for for for me, it's like I wanna make a certain amount of money so I could have a certain house I don't have to worry anymore. So I could spend my monthly however much I want. And then there's there's I mean, I mean, all of us have some ego thing of, like, I wanna prove to people that I'm legit.
21:50
What what was your and but I, like, had a certain money goal in mind. I'm and I imagine Sean's the same way. He's like, well, I want this lifestyle. I want this. What what's what's your motivating factor in all this? Like, and you say I wanna have a hundred million dollars in net worth by a certain age, or I want girls to have sex with me, which is like we all obviously do. Like, what's, like, the motivating factor? I wanna fit in. I think I I had two big, like, insecurities and drives.
22:13
One is those initial investors who backed me when I was eighteen.
22:17
I wanted to prove to them that they were right and fire was seven years later from that, seventy years later after that. So what I want to prove they were right, and I was too insecure to to show any kinks in my armor to them. And two is I wanted to be the guy that just, like, took you to wild crazy experiences.
22:32
And I'm like, wow, like, this whole programming thing is taking me into this world of entertainment, hanging out with, like, rappers and models and comedians. And my friends don't believe me. Like, I wanna be that guy who can take you from your shitty college or from your like shitty desk job to this private island where the who's who of the world is letting in their guards and having to blast. So it was partly like proving myself to investors And to partly prove myself to friends that, like, I'm the guy that made this life experience happen that you just can't get anywhere else.
23:01
We should explain the origin. So you you go from Magnesis.
23:05
I don't know what's in between, but at some point, you create this app called the Fire app. The Fire app was meant to, like, let you book a a artist. Right? So you could be like, oh, I want
23:16
you know, whatever, Timber, to perform at a party, and I can send a booking request, and he can accept or reject, and there's no middlemen or middle you know, less middlemen in the middle And so, you know, sort of create a marketplace
23:26
for,
23:28
you know, people to book
23:29
these artists. That was the core idea. And Fire Festival was a marketing stunt to promote the app. Right? But at some point, the two kind of almost flipped in importance and Fire festival became
23:40
the the overarching thing.
23:42
Fire festival
23:44
starts,
23:45
from what I understand because
23:46
you meet a guy who's like, yo, I have this little plane and I fly to these random Caribbean
23:51
Islands and you used to go on your weekends, you know, in this, like, fourth person plane,
23:56
hang out, come back. And you were like, wow, this is so dope. People are like, wow. That sounds so dope. You're like, yeah. You should come do this too. And somehow your experience of, like, flying to these remote islands and having a having a good time became what if we fly three thousand people down to this island,
24:14
and we do this, like, Festival. Does Coachella like festival? Did I get that right so far?
24:20
I think you told the story better than me. Oh, yeah. Perfect.
24:24
But but somewhere along the way, you get something wrong fast forwarding this because I think, you know, it's documented in other places, but I do wanna explain it for somebody who's listening. So
24:32
Several along the way, you're like, alright, we're doing this. We're doing Fire Festival,
24:36
and
24:37
you
24:38
start promoting this thing. And your method of promoting was what? What was the marketing game plan to promote Fire Festival?
24:45
So, like, it all kinda stems down too. I was for all my terrible flaws, I was really good at taking a tangible asset that most people didn't have and using that to launch a business.
24:56
So Magnesas had this physical card that would cost me, like, two dollars to make per card and then a crazy townhouse.
25:02
So my entire target demographic didn't have access to a black card. They didn't have access to a multi million dollar townhouse in downtown Manhattan when they're twenty three years old. So I took these two, like, inaccessible things, gave it to my customers and used that to launch a business on top of. Fast forward to fire. Now I'm trying to cater to these, you know, b list rappers and comedians who need small bookings.
25:24
These people aren't JZ. They aren't Drake. They don't have their own private island. So here's where I come in. Okay. Now guys, we have our own private island. You wanna be involved with me, and I use that to hopefully build the fire booking app. So all of my marketing strategy came down to taking a tangible good or service
25:41
that wasn't available to a certain audience
25:44
giving it to them, making them feel like it's theirs and they own it, and using that to build a business. So that was the entire logic behind, like, the Fire app and Fire Festival component. And as you perfectly said, the importance quickly flipped as we launched the marketing for Fire Festival and Fire Festival became it and Fire App became, you know, a second thought for that period of time.
26:04
It's not like a bad plan. It's not a bad idea, I guess. Like, like,
26:09
on the pod, I think when the documentaries came out, we were like, honestly,
26:12
it was a dope idea. And some but, like, if it had just been done,
26:17
Like, and it wasn't even like it's not like Theranos where you're like, that was a dope idea. If somebody had just done it right, it's like, well, maybe it's technically impossible. Your shit your thing was possible.
26:27
You just had shitty, like, logistics and operations and poor planning. You just threw
26:31
you just threw, like, the the idea of the event and then the act the actual event did not live up due to to the hype,
26:39
but your thing was totally possible.
26:42
What
26:43
what went wrong Why why were you not able to to pull off what you had sold? The dream that you had sold, where you had Bella hadid and you had fucking, I don't know, Kendall Jenner and all the all these people promoting that, hey, we're going to this thing. It's gonna be, you know, whatever. The party of the century,
26:59
you sold the tickets So you got that part right. It's just you didn't deliver the party.
27:04
Do you know what the craziest thing is? I think lying
27:09
and unable to show weaknesses
27:11
made the festival fail.
27:13
And I truly believe that my backers at the time were well connected and smart enough where I came to them and said, hey, look, guys, we did this great marketing campaign, but I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing. They would have found, like, the best festival people in the world. Become and actually execute this, but I was so scared to show that I couldn't handle it, that I kept saying everything is great, and everything is perfect, and that pushed away the people that would help me. It's like literally lying. I think doom's the festival from day one post announcement.
27:41
Who are the big backers? Was it VCs or or or family offices or what?
27:46
Handful of venture funds, then, you know,
27:49
twenty five individuals everywhere from, like, larger family offices down to just smaller angels. Who who is the biggest fund or most well known fund?
27:57
I just don't want to throw anybody under the bus. So yeah. Oh, okay. I thought I wasn't sure if it was public.
28:03
I I I think that Some of the investor list was a good portion of the investor list. I believe was sealed in the court files, and I didn't ask for it to be sealed. I think other people did. So I just don't wanna, yeah, Sure. Don't wanna do that.
28:18
Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot?
28:21
See most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. Think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. Hub spot,
28:32
grow better.
28:33
And so you, you're like, okay. I
28:36
I could have asked for help from
28:38
organized people. And this is where I think things get a little tricky. So -- Mhmm. -- you brought up SBF.
28:45
Yeah.
28:46
I've I brought up Theranos. We're talking about Fire Festival. I think there's always a question of, like, was this intentionally supposed to be a fraud like, oh, I'm just gonna trick people and run away and, you know, like, with FTX right now, that's a question. Like,
28:59
did something happen that you weren't really paying attention to, and then things out out of hand, or from the beginning,
29:06
oh, you were like, I'm just gonna trick people and take their money.
29:10
For you,
29:12
where did it where did it start? It, like, was it well intentioned at the beginning? And where did it turn? At what point did you realize, oh, I'm
29:20
I gotta just say this because I gotta get to the next dollar. I gotta get to the next the next milestone.
29:27
So
29:27
truly tried to execute the event. And, literally, up until people were arriving to the festival, I thought it was gonna work, and, obviously, that's so stupid looking back. How how can you say that? You you knew you had, like, fucking,
29:40
you know, tents and, like, grilled cheese sandwiches for for people who ordered villas. Like, what how could you
29:46
How could you still believe that right up to live at? Are you sober the this entire time, by the way?
29:51
Maybe the drugs, but but was, like, drinking a lot. They But no drugs. Drinking way too much. Never. Like, I've smoked weed maybe six times in my life, but I think it's like a common, you know, people are saying I was on Coke or whatever. Never tried Coke in my life. So they get it hard. Okay. So, yeah. Back to so you're you're you're in a sober ish mindset and you actually think it's gonna work the day of or the day before. And I'm like, here's my thought process. The island is so beautiful. We have this, like, local team who you couldn't script these characters.
30:20
They have the boats, they have the jet skis. They're gonna take people out. Like, we know how to do these experiences. They have some crazy pilots. Like, it's just gonna be like a wild weekend that you've never had before, and we have thirty artists who are paid. So you're gonna have, like, a list talent, one of the most beautiful places in my opinion, like, in the Atlantic Ocean and amazing
30:39
group of these, like, movie scripted local characters who have toys for you to play on. So I thought that, like, okay. They'll go back and they'll have a shitty ticket. We don't we don't have food and shelter at bathrooms, but we got nature.
30:52
We had John rule.
30:54
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who needs food when you have too big?
30:57
But actually, like, I think the craziest thing is if we market it like that, it would have been amazing. It would have been better. Like, hey, guys, I can't figure out the logistics. I can't afford to to build, like, five hundred houses, but I somehow came up with the five million bucks for the artist. We have these great people. We have this great island, like, bring a sleeping bag and figure this shit out. I think that that mindset shift was marketed. People would have been a more excited, and they would have been, like, felt like they're owning the adventure. And it would have been almost like -- Yeah. I totally agree with that. -- earning man years were. And, like, the marketing, like, killed me at the end. Like, the marketing sold tickets, but it also made it fail.
31:30
What would the ideal outcome had been? Let's say that like it just so happened to work. How much revenue and profit would it have made? And, like, what would the ideal situation had had been?
31:42
So I have no idea.
31:44
Like, my entire Are you fucking kidding me? How do you not know this?
31:47
So, like I I we had a budget for ten million dollars for the festival. I don't have ten million dollars. I'm like, okay. I can reasonably
31:55
raised ten million dollars just off of this brand that we're building right now for the festival,
32:00
ended up spending way more than that. And it got to the point where I would go to sleep with no money in the bank, wake up and know that, like, that day I had to raise a certain dollar amount just to survive. And some days it was fifty grand, some days it was four million dollars. So I'd wake up at, you know, nine AM and know that I have until two PM to get x dollars in the bank to then rewire it out before the before the day ended. So my life was fucking hell, and I just couldn't, like, zoom out. So I was stuck. Okay. Say is two million dollars. I can call this guy. I can call this guy. And, like, at the end of the day, things keep getting bigger. The brand is gonna be so big. If this festival works, everybody's gonna get paid. And it just didn't, like, know how to really run the numbers at that point. So how much did you end up spending?
32:42
We've raised
32:44
twenty six or twenty seven.
32:47
But we were making money from other sources. Like, we were selling tickets on top of that. We were getting sponsors.
32:51
Magnesis was making money. I was doing consulting jobs. So it's like literally, like,
32:57
every day, which is a different angle for money. So you spent maybe, like, thirty million plus.
33:03
I would say in this six month period, it was probably closer to forty over sixty five.
33:08
And the tickets. Yeah. So you sold seven thousand tickets. Is that right? I think it was probably
33:14
just under six thousand. It was just, like, around three thousand people per weekend. Some were given away for free and some were we sold a little under six thousand. Alright. Let's call it five percent revenue. Five thousand times what? Well, how what's the average take care of? What what were you selling these for? So the average the
33:29
The the median ticket price is like twelve to fifteen hundred. However, we sold, like, a handful of outlier tickets for, like, a couple hundred thousand dollars plus per ticket.
33:38
So then it was in five thousand times two thousand, you're at what's that? Ten million. You're at ten million -- Yeah. -- in sales.
33:45
And then did you have another a couple million from sponsors or anything like that? Yeah. And, like, the issue is that some of the ticket money was held in escrow. Some of it was for, like, these yachts and boats So it wasn't, like, pure ten million dollars of free cash flow. It was, like, everything was held up or not held up in certain ways. I think, like, my strength account got frozen with, like, seven hundred grand in the day the festival got canceled. So it's like, you know, money was held in a bunch of different sources and areas. So the the event itself didn't make any sense. Right? It was like, we're gonna make ten million. We're gonna spend forty, but but the brand,
34:16
the brand, maybe.
34:17
The brand is gonna carry the way. You you but you could've gotten so much more profit just by running a ten million or forty million dollars of Facebook ads. You know what I mean? Like, this is just like a a better or a slightly different version of cameo or something like that. Like these marketplaces are tried and true.
34:35
Yeah. An event would have been cool if it were like a break even or a slight loss, but that Yeah.
34:40
But but put it this way. Like, as for as wrong as things are, like, I can't do this tomorrow. But if I did Fire Festival again in three years, I think almost all the first group as well as the rest of, like, pop culture would buy tickets just to be there to see how bad it is. Right? Like,
34:56
the the brand the brand value is there. Like, how can I do it appropriately and pick the right time to be able to see? I mean, I have to do it again. I just can't do it while I'm on probation. I can't do it this year or next year, you know, it has to be done again. And I think no matter what success or failures I find along the way in tech, like, until I execute fire one point five, Have you seen his new company, pirate? Go to the website.
35:18
So it's p y website.
35:20
Let's let's do it. Do trust me. Go to it. It's p y r t dot com.
35:24
Billy, like,
35:25
this is the same shit that you're doing a little bit. Like, it's it's all like
35:30
you said you could program, like, like, when I see what you're doing and I you had you did the meta gal thing where where you got in trouble for scamming people out of that. I'm like, a,
35:39
just do a fucking course dude. Just create
35:42
recourse and make two million, like, me and Sean make seven figures a year from this stupid stuff. It's not to you. It provides value, but I mean, it's, like, insignificant compared to an event. Or like, you said you like the program and you like content sites, like, just do something like boring and straight. Why are you doing this pirate thing? It's like the same shit. There's so many thing that's gonna go that could potentially go wrong. It's just the the stakes are so much higher than just creating some boring ass software.
36:08
Hear you.
36:10
I think pirate is actually
36:11
Is that what you're supposed to call it down?
36:14
No. Yeah.
36:15
Billy, we have three thousand people coming tomorrow. I hear you.
36:20
Yep. You're you might very well be right. And I think the thing that we're getting back to with pirate is, like,
36:26
I'm not trying to host a thousand people on an island that's not gonna work. I want to get back to those trips on the small planes with a dozen people or two dozen people that did work well for a couple of years. And if I have to be like a tour guide for a few years of my life and, like, eat shit, like, I'm gonna go do that, but I can give a couple of dozen people this amazing adventurous experience.
36:45
And then while I'm doing that, I'd like to find interesting ways to broadcast those experiences to all their followers and then give their followers a way to get involved. So
36:55
I'm not trying to figure out the logistics to host thousands of people. I know it can host two thousand people. And if I can take five years to build, like, really interesting, like, virtual reality, tech,
37:05
that allows anybody to, like, watch and actually influence what's happening. I think that's, like, a really cool win and way to kinda get back to what I'm good at.
37:14
This is a horrible idea.
37:17
Yeah. Dude, like It's a horrible idea.
37:19
It's I I actually don't think it's a horrible idea if it like, I think you potentially are, you're you're,
37:26
you rank so high in capability and so high in in ignorance. Like, and that's, like, a perfect combination I think of starting a business, which is, like, this, like, confidence of, like, I think I could pull this off, and I'm capable of some things. That's actually a beautiful combination.
37:40
But you also have this third part of the of the pie chart where it's just like reputation and like pass and owing money.
37:47
I just don't understand why you're doing this. It just you can you you are brilliant at a lot of things. It just seems like such a start a just a boring ass agency that makes twenty million a year and ten million in profit. Yeah. If you just did, like, an event, like, a stunt marketing agency
38:02
or,
38:03
or something like that. We have that. We're not to get today, actually. It's called a pirate collective, and that that's how we're fun. That's what we're trying to fund. I guess our tech is. So let's go through this. Okay. So I'm on the I'm on the pirate website.
38:14
And it says there's a picture of a private island. So we're we're already getting flashbacks of fire. Cash. Yeah. And then it says, join the group, a pirate is somebody who turns the impossible into a venture. It says, give me your phone number. And and then it says, join the treasure hunt virtual reality. So what you're saying from what what I just gathered of what you just described
38:32
is that you're gonna take,
38:34
you know, six to fifteen people at a time
38:38
on those, like, little planes to the islands, like you used to do, where it's not such a heavy logistical lift.
38:45
Yeah. Those people are gonna have a great time. They'll pay
38:49
five grand or ten grand or something. I'm just guessing here. They'll pay a lot of money to have this really cool, adventurous,
38:54
experience.
38:55
And then you're going to use,
38:58
you know,
38:59
video plus maybe virtual reality
39:01
to broadcast that experience to other people who can't afford to go and or maybe their friends and their social media.
39:08
Yeah. And they get to maybe buy a virtual ticket to kind of attend the party that way. And you're gonna do that a bunch of times. Did I describe it right? Or did I, I'm just guessing based on what you what you said? Absolutely. To to the last thing that you're missing is that the people who are basically so essentially, we're gonna partner with this hotel.
39:26
They'll handle all the hospitality and logistics. We'll host artists there on a regular basis.
39:31
Will rig the hotel with these three sixty cameras.
39:34
Live stream everything that's happening,
39:36
then get the people who are watching the live stream, the ability to buy in affect what's happening on the island. So they could, like, have one of the artists go to the recording studio and impact the creative process when they're making their song. Or they can buy the talent like a drink, you know, and make them take a tequila shot. Because you should just have gone for being mister beast. Like, we we hung out with mister beast. And -- Yeah. -- you're wired just like that nut. And, and I feel like if you just channeled your energy towards, how do I do the craziest thing that's gonna make the craziest video twenty million people are gonna watch and then continually one up yourself.
40:10
I feel like that would work. That's my suggestion to you. You don't have to answer. And you absolutely have the you have the charisma and you have the storytelling ability. I'm like, just do just do just just make you and, like, a small team
40:22
doing the crazy shit and do add dollars, but it it sounds like you're share you wanna share your screen. You could share your screen. I I think if you click it around,
40:29
I bet you shared
40:32
I don't know. I'm not supposed to share this, but okay. But, I wanna get back to what you just said, don't I like that attitude. I like that.
40:39
So,
40:41
this was an island we were working with. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to go to the Bahamas. So this is just pure, like, demo purpose.
40:47
But the idea is to take, like, a one to one virtual representation
40:51
of a property,
40:53
track where all the talent is in real time track where all the toys are in real time. And then people can click into various live streams. And once they're watching a live stream, hopefully watching their favorite talent, they could actually choose these actions to affect what's really happening there. So it could be as crazy as me swimming in the reef, and the users are starting to chum the water and given the sharks in the area, I think a lot of people wanna see see that happen, or as simple as buying somebody a drink.
41:22
But And what what what would the financials of this be? Like, I mean, I'm I'm sure you've now thought about that more. You're like, what would the P and L? What what would what does the P and L to hear?
41:31
No. Shirley has. It looks like one day one day it could do this. What what's that? One day?
41:36
So a million people paying twenty cents
41:40
to
41:41
ask a talent to do something or to contribute an action towards like the real world. So if everybody pays twenty cents to chum the water, and a million people are jumping the water, then that's kinda where the financials come in. That's alright. I I can't do that math. Just tell me, like, in in in five years, Are are you are you in your head? You're like, I think we could do, like, a hundred million dollars in eight year? Like, what what what's the
42:01
We're not gonna be arrested, Sam, like, I don't wanna promise any revenue. No. No. Sorry. No problem. It's I'm just saying, like, when you're laying in bed, you're like, I think this could become like a hundred million dollar company by doing this. I think what's the way I think about this and my logic could be wrong is that once again, I we're not gonna be using the Bahamas, but for example, the Bahamas gets around four ish million tourists a year. And If we're doing these really interesting broadcasts, we can have more than four four million people in a single day, like virtually come to the island. So if we can just, like, totally destroy their tourism numbers in a virtual scale. I think it's a big revenue opportunity.
42:34
Oh, so okay. So where did you come this idea? Were you in prison, or was it once you got out that you were like, alright. I'm gonna start my brainstorm.
42:41
No. I was in solitary confinement, and it's, like, totally, totally confined.
42:45
And You know, a lot of it was just like reflection, and then a lot of it too is I wanna get outside of these walls and just, like, get back to adventure and then find a way to share this. So What we should say, by the way? That's kinda where people You you got into solitary because
43:00
you
43:01
attempted to do a podcast from inside prison. Yeah.
43:04
Terrible. What the first, did you know that was not allowed? Was that I didn't even realize that would be such a faux pas. Like, that that that was that would be such a Of course, that'd be a faux pas.
43:13
Think the biggest thing is I guess they're great.
43:16
Dude, they read your mail and shit. You you can't, like and, like, each crip each inmate you have, like, different rules for you. Right? Like, if a journalist calls you and you do an interview, is that allowed? That's allowed.
43:28
I was wrong. The toughest part though is, like, it was a gray area. I think if it was, like, a clear violation of the rules, my punishment would have been, like, less strict. I use the pay phone, like, they're available pay phones.
43:39
But at the same time, like, you can't cause attention to the jail. Right? And that's what I did. So
43:43
I understand, like, why it was, like, so incredibly stupid, but I think if I had a clear violation of the rules, I would have gone to solitary for, like, forty five days and not seven months. So you basically had a podcast host call you on the pay phone, and then you did your side of the podcast from the pay phone in, like, ten minute or fifteen minute increments. Right? Because that's how you were allowed. Exactly.
44:02
Exactly. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I understand why you think that's gray. It's like, what's the difference between prostitution and and pornography? You know, it's like, oh, I don't know if there's a camera there. It's like you're you're safe. Like, You know, I mean, like, you're, like, playing this, like,
44:15
like, I don't know if I would be if I would be risking things at that moment. I mean, I
44:20
I've when I was in college, I did stupid stuff and I got in trouble. And I remember getting in trouble and thinking like, I don't ever wanna come back to jail again. And more so, it solitary confinement seems like I would kill my I I think I would when it commit suicide. Like, that sounds like that's like the
44:35
seven months in a box, it seems like the worst that's the worst possible
44:39
outcome.
44:40
Let alone, like, you know, getting life, you know, like, I'll chop on some of these guys in in these, like, Florence and all these, like, high high level security.
44:48
What was that like seven months being in that cell?
44:51
I get anxious just thinking about it.
44:54
I actually think that it's counterproductive
44:56
in terms of reform, if that kinda makes sense. And
45:02
the other
45:03
time in jail. Like, I don't think it's going to have, like, long lost long lasting negative impacts in my life. I did ten months total in solitary, one time for three, one time for seven, I think, like, that actually makes it more likely that I make a mistake in the future. And, obviously, if I do make a mistake, it's totally on me. But, like, the mental
45:22
hangover that I have where it's like somebody out there could snap their fingers and put me into a concrete box. Like, that's scary. Like, that's what gives me the nightmares at night. And I think that, like, if anything that makes, you know, ideas bigger or different because you're you're kind of fearful of that outcome.
45:37
So I don't know. It's fucking hard. And, like, there are guys who have done way more than ten months, and I can't imagine what they feel like, but I think that's, like, the worst part of the experience. It actually It's just counterproductive.
45:47
Did you know it was gonna be seven months? Or is, like, do do you know there's a endpoint or you didn't know?
45:53
No. And I think, like, if they said, hey, this is seven months, then you're getting out, and then you're going home a year after that, it would have been totally different. But The fact that they kept fucking with me, basically saying, hey, you're never getting out of here. You're gonna get in trouble more. Like, that was the biggest mind fuck. You just, like, wake up every morning and be like, this is never gonna end. Why, like,
46:12
you mean the the guards were were just assholes?
46:16
Yeah. In the jail, they literally in response to the
46:19
cast, they tried to send me to a a terrorist facility called the the c m the CMC in Marion, Illinois. You can, like, look at their inmates on Wikipedia.
46:27
Like, I'd be one of two non terrorists in that facility, and they would come and fuck with me and, like, pass, like, program statements under my door for this communication management unit. Like, Here's where you're going, McFarlane, and, like, I thought they were bluffing. And then, like, a day later, oh, we submitted you there. And, like, it legitimately tried to send me to a terrorist facility. And it's like you're never getting out.
46:47
What's gonna happen? That is fucking crazy. I I think that, like, whenever I was thinking of I remember talking my wife at the time when you were getting in trouble. I'm like, unfortunately, I think four or five years probably is a fair is is a probably a fair punishment don't think solitary is a fair punishment. I don't think being, like, tormented is fair, though. You know, like, just say, you went to jail, not because you threw a bad festival.
47:07
You went to jail for -- Mhmm. -- what was the exact reason
47:11
the re that's lying to lying to investors and, like And you lied, what, about the financials? Or what did you lie about? Yes.
47:17
Badly. Financials, revenue, personal company. What were you doing?
47:22
What were you doing?
47:24
Wire fraud, I think is the the main charge where there are a couple couple surrounding charges as well. But basically, anytime you lie to get money, it's essentially wire fraud in the eyes of the the federal government. But you you are making fake documents. Like, you were photoshopping things and making fake PDFs, I think. Right? Yeah. I made I just made fake, like, Excel documents, basically.
47:44
Saying, hey, our income is x mailing in this month, and it wasn't close. So I was, you know, totally guilty. It was it wasn't, like, it wasn't a gray area. I was black and white wrong. Right. The festival was better than I advertised, which is obviously impossible. I still haven't gone to Joe. When you,
48:00
so I remember being like, okay. Wow. That's crazy.
48:04
Sounds like, you know, he got kinda in over his head, you know, and I I was having some sort of sympathy in a way. And then there was some story, like, when you want probation,
48:13
you did something else you created something called like VIP
48:16
access or some shit like that.
48:18
Yeah. And then that was also like, you know,
48:22
you know, a little fugazi in some way. What was that? And how do you defend that part? Right? Cause that's after the fact now. Yeah. And you're you're already on probation and and
48:30
Was it just like
48:32
I just had a habit of doing this? What what was going on there?
48:36
The only defense is that I was a fucking idiot. Like, there's no other way to to to get around that.
48:42
Yeah, I was totally wrong, and
48:45
I kinda got in this mindset where it's all about the money. And, like, that's probably wrong, then figured, hey, I need to find a way to pay everybody back. And let's get back to what I was doing at Magnesis
48:55
at the end to to kind of fund Firefels to which to sell these tickets. Right. And
48:59
you needed, like, a you needed, like, like, if I was your father, I would have just I would have punched you in the fucking face. And I'd be like, Billy, like, this is you're you're hurting me. You're, like, you're you're hurt, like, you needed, like, like, like someone just to be like, dude, you are so talented you are fucking this up so much. It's like these are such clear mistakes. I don't understand why.
49:19
I don't understand Like, did you not have a friend that was, like, it sounds like you were trying to trying to do a quick fix. If I can get the money back, if I could pay people back, then I'm not gonna get in trouble about the other thing. Is that is that accurate as what you were thinking? I I was scared at jail. Like, no one was picking up my calls anymore. I'm on, you know, on bond, I guess, And, like, I just couldn't, once again, I couldn't zoom out and understand the bigger picture where if I sat down, shut the fuck up. Yeah. Sure. I'll be broke for a couple of years, but I'll go to jail for two or three years. And I'll get out in my late twenties and, you know, have a chance to pay people back the right way. And I just, like, couldn't understand that. But, yeah, I think that, like, going forward, a big thought process for me, and it's been three months is, you know,
50:00
how do I position myself whether, like, whether it's a company or something else? Like, to get that help I need. And do I operate within a bigger company? Do I find, like, partners that, you know, are senior to me and experience and age who I can, like, trust and defer to? So just all part of my journey right now. And I think that, like, this time around
50:18
I I think I I prefer those boundaries more, and it's just trying to find it and it's been, you know, super early in the Are you gonna raise funding for this next company? I I think a lot of pe I don't know, but if I had a bet, I would say you probably actually could raise I bet you there's people that would give you money.
50:33
Is that So
50:35
I I texted a
50:37
I texted, like, eight venture funds a few weeks ago. And, you know,
50:42
was literally, like, a broken grammar, like, two line sentence. Like, two told me to fuck off. Like, you know, one didn't respond, you know, one asked for more questions. And ford is, like, responding in, like, you know, within minutes saying we're in.
50:53
The issue is, you know, as I as I've kinda gone through the process, I'm actually not allowed due to an SCC deal.
51:00
I'm not allowed to raise securities.
51:02
So I can't go and raise money. I think the ironic part is that, like, it's probably gonna it would have been easier this time to raise venture money. And, like, no decks. Like, no. No. That shit. Like I said, I have no decks. Here's all. Here's all I have. And,
51:14
yeah, people want to back it. I just can't raise the funds. So And I I think that would shock people is that You know, you just had a fifty percent hit rate on, on a text message. Okay.
51:24
How do you explain that to somebody who's listening and they're like, you know, there's some people who are
51:29
frustrated that that's the case. I can't believe people would find him. How how would you explain it though? Cause it's people people are making this decision. They're smart people. They're capable people. They have other options.
51:39
How would you explain why why somebody would be willing to do that?
51:42
So I started trying to raise money for the first time almost
51:45
twelve over twelve years ago. And, you know, as with everybody, the first ex people told me to fuck off and kinda laughed at me. And, like, so I went through twelve years of shit, including ten months of solitary confinement to, like, get to the point where maybe an investor believes that they've learned enough lessons to focus on what I'm good at, get help with what I'm bad at. So not like it is, like, wake up one day and can raise money. It was it was it's been twelve years of just, like, totally fucking up to get to this point. But And I think that before I raise money and obviously, like, legally, I can't do it. I'm not gonna be allowed to do it is I need the help. Right? And I need, like, the system and the structure in place where let me go and mark it and, like, come up with these experiences and adventures and, you know, drive attention, but have somebody else who could just help me manage, like, financials and logistic operations. Well, what other ideas did you have? If you weren't gonna do something fire festively,
52:35
did you have, like, other
52:37
I'm sure you had a lot of time on your hands to think of other ideas. Did you think about any other potential potential things you could do with your time? Maybe not even businesses, just other things you might do.
52:47
I think
52:48
if someone wants to go on an early I really understand,
52:51
GPT three, like, the what's kind of powering the open AI, and just become an expert on that. I think you can be, like, make it killing as a consultant and, like, teaching all these big brands, like, what's happening there and, like, what's gonna happen? I think that's, like, one option to kinda go and, like, become a GPT three, like, expert and, like, need to go to guys for a lot of brands? Is your experience with GPT three since
53:11
sorry. When you got out six months ago?
53:14
Yeah. I actually was reading about it for, like, a year in jail.
53:18
Didn't even, like, know OpenAI was the name of the company or anything like that. It's, like, had random books in it. So I was like, oh, it's just super interesting. And, like, have dozens of pages and notes on it. Maybe I'll post them, but, like, kind of, come out and see what happened recently. Pretty cool. So I agree. I think that could be a great company, and I bet you'd kill it because you're pretty good selling.
53:36
You by the way, you yes. I think if I was close with with you, I'll be like, Billy do that.
53:42
What what else what else has excited you? What other ideas?
53:45
I think the concept of Fire app, which is providing transparency to a lot of these, like, legacy entertainment systems is interesting.
53:53
One, I think, which is really interesting right now is, like,
53:57
performance marketing for, like, social media and influencers.
54:01
So I think one the reason why the fire just take a step back, the reason why the fire festival marketing, I think, works so well, is at the exact same time we get four hundred people post as Orange tile, but these four hundred people weren't related. Right? It was some music artists, like some comedian, some athletes, some models. So when you're in our target audience and you're scrolling through your Instagram feed, they're like, why the fuck are these five people who don't know each other all posting this right now? Like, I need to go check this out. So one idea I had is that basically creating, like, a marketplace for influencer marketing where, let's say, like, Starbucks has a new coffee. They wanna advertise. They can go and upload all their creative assets
54:36
and set, like, a million dollar budget. And then anybody around the world could take those assets and post it to their Instagram or their TikTok or their YouTube. And then they basically get a score for how much engagement they get in their content.
54:49
And their overall score gets them a percentage of the budget. So if Kim Kardashian posts it and she crushes it, you know, she gets nine hundred grand, and a hundred thousand dollars is split up to, you know, another million people who all kind of posted. I think it's like a fun way to remove all these bullshit middlemen in this whole social marketing world. And then allow a brand to turn all of their followers into advertisers for that company without dealing with any of the leg work. Almost like clout. Do you remember Cloud with a k? Yeah. Yeah. I do. Like, yeah.
55:17
They they measure the overall social score. Right?
55:20
Yeah. It it it it they raised a a ton of money and probably sold for less than their valuation of a hundred million dollars or I think they sold for a hundred, which was less, I think than what they raised at. But I actually thought it was a a fantastic idea. Yeah. For some reason, it didn't work. I don't know why, but you you you'd be in that space a little bit. It sounds like Yeah. I think it's interesting. It's like providing a a a score to how well your content performs and getting paid off of that, but then turning everybody into your promoters. Yeah. I think that's a really cool idea.
55:48
It also flips the model on its head. Right now, you have to do sort of individual manual outreach and then negotiations
55:53
and then whatever.
55:55
Versus just saying
55:56
it's in the reverse.
55:58
Here's a giant honey pot.
56:00
If you want it, go get it, you know. And and then basically divvying it up based on the actual performance versus,
56:07
you know, who can negotiate the best? You know, at the at the campus hallway. Okay. So that's a really cool idea. What else you got? Yeah. Yeah. Those are my two. So Those two. GPT three expert, and then providing, like, an open market place where brands can upload their creative assets and anybody can kinda publish them and and get paid based on. And why not do that one? Yeah. And why not why why just settle on the one versus those two? I mean, they sound quite reasonable.
56:31
Yeah. Maybe I'll do them. I'm just trying. Yeah. No. You won't. I don't think you will. I think, like, I don't know. I don't think you will. Like, I don't know. I guess you just have this, like, you must have a fire in you where you're, no pun intended where you're, like, I have to go this event route.
56:46
Which is which is baffling. I mean, but I guess people just passionate people are passionate about certain things. I get it. Yeah. But,
56:53
logically, I I've just I have such
56:56
I don't wanna see you fail, I guess. I wanna see you succeed and, like, prove people wrong, and I I wanna prove that, like, second chances could work. And so when I see this. I'm like, oh, man. You're just playing this game on hard mode.
57:09
Like, you
57:10
Yeah. I think you're not making the same mistakes on the, obviously, the, I have no idea. But, like, that'd be crazy if you're making the same mistakes as far as what got you into prison, but
57:20
You're also choosing a business model that's super hard.
57:24
Like, you know, you're talking about a million people paying twenty cents to chum the waters. And it's like, I I don't even know, like, words have never even been said together.
57:32
Alright. So it's like, you know, you're choosing to try to pull off
57:35
a really,
57:37
really, really difficult thing.
57:39
Yeah. And, you know,
57:41
it just seems like I, I guess, like, my philosophies always, like, in in business,
57:45
There's no extra points for difficulty.
57:48
In fact, you get you're getting docked points for difficulty. The harder something is you know, the less money you end up making. And and and so
57:56
there there are no bonus points for doing things the hard way. Now on the other side, There is one advantage, which is when you go do something cool and audacious every day you wake up and you're motivated, and maybe you can recruit people who are motivated to pull off something epic.
58:09
Because epic things have their own, you know, motivational draw to to actually go and do your best work. Which which she just did. I on your Twitter and I think TikTok, you said, hey, everyone. I'm hiring for my new thing. How many, applicants did you get?
58:21
Yeah. So back to a business idea, I think it's really interesting. Is we partner with a company called Downy Hunter World to hire, and they're trying to disrupt the whole recruiter model where they're saying anybody can refer a friend to a job. If you successfully refer someone, you get paid that recruiting fee. And as you guys know, like, those fees could be crazy. So I think, like, their site is super awesome.
58:42
And then we tried to, like, one up it. So we're saying anybody who refers a friend to pirate that we end up hiring, we take that person on one of these pirate experiences.
58:51
So trying to, like, give the island entertainer
58:55
experience to, like, any of our fans.
58:57
We've had a lot of people apply for jobs I think the craziest thing is, like, we have no money, and I'm probably, like, paying fifteen to twenty percent of what I was paying for the same role five or six years ago and probably getting, like, better people. So think it all goes to show, like, your mission and your intention is just so much more important than the how big how big is the list of this line? I put my phone number into this thing. How big is the list? How many people have have signed up to, like, do the treasure hunt? Around two thousand. Okay. So
59:24
Yeah. Not bad. I'm shocked you didn't get more. Because the Nelk boys think that got one point five million views that I'd been We've been getting inbound. It's like social it's like Instagram DMs, I think, or just have gone crazy. I think the conversion's like a phone number through, a platform has been a little bit harder for us, but Yeah. Overall, it's like, how do we kind of organize all these DMs? And maybe that's a different business too. If someone can build an inbox that takes inbound across, like, Instagram DMs,
59:50
LinkedIn, like, in mail,
59:53
your, like, your public email address and organize all of that and, like, kinda qualify those leads. That's something that I would pay for on a monthly basis. And you, like, that's And you're and you're building all of this right now with I think you said you collected a hundred fifty k in revenue so far from, like, brand deals or something like that. And so you basically build since, yeah, November first. Yeah. So you're building this bit since November first. Well, I mean, that's a pretty good run rate already. Yeah. So but you're you're building this business now. You have a hundred and seventy thousand dollars just to to play with. That's kinda what your starting point.
01:00:22
Yeah. Don't worry. We spent it already.
01:00:25
Did you really?
01:00:26
I mean, like,
01:00:27
we're just trying to trying to survive. So Dude, have you ever heard of, pilot or a bench. Dude, there's these, like, really good accounting, like, software companies that you could use. It's like a thousand a month, and they'll just, like, tell you, like, your P and L. Like, you should or like a or like a part time CFO. Like, I don't know, man. Maybe that would be a good investment. I need all I need all of it. I need, like, I need help.
01:00:48
Anybody's listening to an Excel license.
01:00:51
Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever heard of QuickBooks? I mean, like, I don't know man. I think you should, like, really sweat the details on this stuff. FDX use QuickBooks and look what happened. So I'm stuck in shit.
01:01:02
Well, correlation, not causation, but, I mean, you what what speaking of that, what do you think? You you, you know, I've been following we had,
01:01:10
we and Sean and I have both interacted a bit with Martin Scorelli. And, unfortunately,
01:01:14
you know, you're in the same vein. There's you. There's Martin. And then there's now,
01:01:19
I think Sean doesn't like calling him SPF because winners don't get act winners don't get Nick. He's just he's just Samuel now. But what do you think what's your take on the,
01:01:29
what's gonna happen with him?
01:01:32
Forty years. And then he'll receive after, like, yeah, then he'll he'll get out after, like, fifteen to twenty. Do you think that's fair? That's what I guess.
01:01:39
I don't know. That's not good. I talked to Martin after he got out. And I was like, what was it like in prison? And he had a bunch of stories where he's like, yeah, I created a cryptocurrency study club
01:01:48
I, you know, I I had, like, you know, all these, like, he's like, yeah, we had the system where I was, you know, selling information, blah, blah, I was tons of books. I had access to the internet. Mhmm. He's like, I would be under the covers at night, like, basically watching,
01:02:01
Khan Academy videos learning about, like, calculus,
01:02:04
And,
01:02:06
what what's it what do you do to pass the time? What what was your life like?
01:02:09
I think the hardest part about prison is it's designed to strip you of your ambition. Right? Because, like, there are great people there. And I bet some really incredible people, but there also are a lot of bad people. And you can't put bad people into an environment where they're inspired and they have ambition to act on their bad impulses.
01:02:29
So there's this concept of being institutionalized, and essentially it's meant to just make you a human robot.
01:02:35
And I think it's, like, good in a certain way that it makes it time easier,
01:02:39
but, like, naturally, I'll trying to fight against, like, all of, like, the set process as much as possible. So I think it made my time go, like, really, really slow. But I was trying to fight to, like, find ways to stay creative. What what's an exact environment meant to make you robot? Like, they feed you at the same time every day. Like, they turn the lights off at the same time. You can only use your phones for a certain period of time. Like, just everything is, like, structured like this, like you have to wear a uniform to go to lunch. And it's like you're trying to find ways where, like, you know, trying to find my creative periods and just not make every day the same. So I can just, like, keep different ideas flowing and kind of What what were some things you did successfully to kind of, like, amuse yourself? What what was the little lower your, maybe, little tactics. So the little wins you had is to just keep that creative,
01:03:20
you know, spark a lot. Yeah. Training a lot of boxing. So
01:03:26
I had, like, a a stalemate who was a former Puerto Rican, like, professional boxer, and he had, like, wrap his hands with towels and, like, you know, train me in boxing, which is super fun.
01:03:34
We didn't have that guys would take, like, toilet paper rolls and wrap them in tube socks and use that, like, for for mitts. So, yeah, it's like finding, like, creative ways to, to go and, like, exercise and for your mind and, like, do little things you're not supposed to. It doesn't hurt anybody. Like, you couldn't practice martial arts, but, you know, you go in the back and have the guy hold your mitts for you for half hour. You can kinda get away with like a good good way to escape. You look like you're in better shape.
01:03:56
Yeah. I was bad as hell. So
01:03:58
hard hard
01:04:00
What are some,
01:04:01
stereotypes that, you know, and we would have about your experience that either proved to be true or, like, that maybe weren't true,
01:04:09
about the whole experience?
01:04:11
The whole, like, racial
01:04:13
segregation
01:04:14
totally do. Totally thing. Yeah. Yeah. Totally thing.
01:04:17
I think, like, being in New York,
01:04:20
I'm a little naive and spoiled to, I I guess, like, a lot of what probably exists in other parts of the world But
01:04:29
literally being in a place where if you're black, you go on this line for lunch, and if you're white, you go on this line for lunch, and you just can't cross over. It's, like, wild. It just, like, feels like it's sixty years behind the times and obviously something that, like, haven't experienced in in New York and and, like, probably spoil to that sense, but really kinda getting over the racial
01:04:48
issues where I think, kind of a weird hard part for me. And it's probably, like, what's weird about it is, like, when they separate by races, it's not always out of a place of hate. It's just like, no. This is just you stay with us, they go with them. Yeah. And it's not necessarily that they're they hate the other group. It just this is just how we do things. Yeah. It's always been done this way. It's just how we're gonna do it. And, like, there certainly are terrible racists on both sides, but the majority aren't. There's, like, this is the way it's done. So this is the way we're gonna do it. It doesn't really make sense. But if you could go ahead and change
01:05:20
one
01:05:21
way that the prison system works. Well, while still, you know, achieving
01:05:26
the goal and then the job to be done, of, of a prison. What would you change,
01:05:32
now that you've kinda saw saw it from the inside?
01:05:34
I think that
01:05:35
I would make sentencing more equal across the board. And there are a lot of people who committed the exact
01:05:42
same crime who had wildly different sentences. And this is almost like an interesting problem. Maybe it's a really cool business is to build some sort of, like, AI
01:05:50
sentencing thing because, like, right now, it's up to one independent judge. And that judge, like, in my case, I could have gotten nothing or I could have gotten twenty years. And, like, literally, one person can decide the fate of your life.
01:06:01
And I think what I got is fair for me, but many of the people senses weren't fair. So maybe it's some sort of system that takes in all the information around someone's crime in their personal life and then studying everybody else who has had similar crimes and seeing who was successful and actually sentencing based on this idea of, you know, future success. Well, one of the examples
01:06:22
of of different punishments or different sentences based off of different crime or similar crimes
01:06:27
So
01:06:28
I think for my situation, it's a financial crime. And typically, your sentence is based on what the dollar amount that victims lost is. So
01:06:36
the more you lose, the more time you should get. I think, like, there's plenty of people who were from New York whose dollar amounts were hundreds of millions of dollars who got one or two years. Then I go out to a jail in Detroit where there's people who have lost five hundred thousand dollars who've got thirty years. So it's, like, it just, like, they're just total disparity where it it shouldn't be like that. I don't think sentences are based on feature success. And some judges are, like, I think kind enough and smart enough to do that, but but some aren't. So almost like having this AI system that recommends a sentence in addition to the judge, there's like a different data point. I think it'd be super interesting.
01:07:08
Yeah. That's that's a cool idea. That is crazy.
01:07:11
Because like the judge, it could be like the this happens where a judge is in a bad mood or,
01:07:16
has seen certain patterns that are biased And, yeah, I mean, that is it is pretty wild. You know, I've had friends, like, go through some of the stuff, and they're like, oh, he this person was at a great mood today, and I just or I just happen person who falls under this political
01:07:29
party and this is what happened. It is that is pretty crazy.
01:07:33
It's just tough. I'm like, look at Elizabeth Holmes. She realistically could have gotten two years or she got could have gotten thirty five years. Right? And it's, like, it's up to one person to determine, like, what that length of time is, and that's a it's, like, a big task
01:07:45
for
01:07:46
some to take on. And -- Yeah. -- unfortunately, the system isn't fair. Yeah. So Do do they have, like, a, like, a, like, you know, if you go to a company and you're gonna get a job, it's not just to the manager to just pick a random number for what you get to get paid. It's like, no. We know for this job title with this many years of experience, this is the range. And the range is between this, this, and this. And if you're gonna go outside of that range, you gotta have, like, a pretty strong indicator, and it's, like, people have to be notified that I'm going way outside the range,
01:08:14
the the the normal, like, expected range in order to make this offer.
01:08:18
It's almost like they kinda need that or I don't maybe they have a a version of that for judges who are trying to send this.
01:08:24
They have a guideline system that gives you a recommended range
01:08:28
And that definitely helps, and it's good. I think the issue though is that
01:08:32
it's really hard for the judge to get to know someone for the short period of time.
01:08:36
And those who have access to great attorneys have an advantage because, like, your attorney's entire job in the federal system is, like, you're gonna lose the case. It's all about presenting who you really are as a person and why should you be afforded a second chance at some point in the future. So people who don't have access to quality attorneys just don't really have that same opportunity to explain why this should have a second chance. And so I think that the AI probably
01:08:58
benefits more of your, like, lower income defendant, which is most of them who can't afford their own attorneys. To to show they're more of a human than just like what the crime is out there. Did you have a fancy lawyer? I had a good lawyer. So, like, and I just made it impossible for him. Right? Like, getting in trouble again on bail. There's just, like, nothing you could have done. I was just I wasn't more on, like, I could've had twenty lawyers. It wouldn't have mattered. I would've, you know, Shawn, have you ever seen that movie catch me if you can? Of course.
01:09:22
Great movie. And so I read about that guy a lot Frank Abnelly Junior. And it turns out
01:09:27
Most of what like, he he made this book about his crimes and turns out it's likely, like, mostly lies. I think, like, they prove, like, been proven time and time again that he didn't actually do what he said he did in terms of crimes, but he like glamorized it. And then he turned it into like a pretty successful consulting business. I don't know how big, but I, like, I looked up where he lives, and he has got, like, a, you know, multi million dollar home, and he's always wearing these nice suits. And he he looks like he's he's done a good job. When I look at him, Billy, I'm like, well, that guy is kind of like a good example of, like, what, you know, turning shit to gold and, like, turning a situation around. What did you ever think about kinda going that route?
01:10:03
Like I think that, like, I would just yeah. I'd I'd hate to live off of, like, fire for the rest of my life. And then there's, like, a short window opportunity where the attention from it will allow my next business just to start with the springboard, but I'd much rather be known for and fail or succeed at a new business than being someone who just talks about Fire Festival for next thirty years. Like, that's boring as fuck.
01:10:27
I I understand why some people would wouldn't wanna be I agree. It is boring, but when you, you know, are in debt of twenty five million dollars, it's like, well, you know, like, I, unfortunately, I have to sacrifice my excitement in order to, like, make this work. On on the other end, he has got nothing to lose, really.
01:10:44
Well, what does he have to lose? He's got like, alright. Well,
01:10:47
starting back from scratch,
01:10:49
reputation was pretty tainted. And
01:10:52
in a pretty deep, restitution hole where you gotta pay back, like, twenty five, thirty million dollars or something like that. What
01:11:00
why not swing and do what you want with your life versus,
01:11:03
you know,
01:11:05
I guess I guess it is there in in a way, it is it is good idea to just go for the most whatever is the most sort of exciting and fun and fulfilling thing for you. And how do you find pride? Right? Like, I think that talking about it, like, a failed the business when I was twenty four and twenty five when I'm forty, I'm not gonna wake up with juice to keep going. Like, I think, like, if I see somebody else doing that, I'm like, oh, what a fucking loser? I kinda wanna be that person. So I'd rather go and, like, try to improve and, like, whether I fail or succeed, just try something new and different and try to build something So so if it all works,
01:11:36
if life goes the way you want it and you're now sixty five, seventy years old, what's Billy McFarlane? Who who who is he? What what happened? It all works out for you. Yeah. He took his failures, learned from it, used it as a springboard to build something new and, like, whether it's pirate or something else that I I do in ten years from now and and went for it, but, like, made good friends and
01:11:57
help people along the way. And if I can pay back twenty five million dollars amazing, If I pay back a million dollars, but, you know, I try it and do it honestly, like, that's okay too, I think. And, yeah, and, actually, I think that a lot of the investors listening would probably
01:12:10
agree with that. If as long as it's kinda done the right way, I think at this point, it's less about the money and more about
01:12:16
how I change.
01:12:17
Well, we appreciate you coming on. You know, this was like, when we were I was preparing for this, and I was like, man, I don't know how to approach this. I don't wanna, like,
01:12:25
glamorize
01:12:26
someone who's done something bad, but, like,
01:12:29
this was a really confusing thing to do, but I'm happy we we are able talk. I I'm gonna be following your story very closely. I'm very eager to see how you pulled this off.
01:12:38
And frankly, I want you to pull, you know, I want I I want redemption to be real, and and I want it to work. Everyone deserves a second chance. So I hope I hope it does. Thank you guys. Super cool to finally be here. So, Sam and Sean, thank you guys. Thanks for coming on.
00:00
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