00:00

Alright. This is gonna be a special episode. I think that the best episodes we do are the ones where we highlight a business or a person who is

Alright. This is gonna be a special episode. I think that the best episodes we do are the ones where we highlight a business or a person who is

00:09

Amazing that you've never heard of. And that's what today's episode is. The person that we have on Jess Mah she has built herself I don't know, ten companies that have combined, you know, they're worth nine hundred and fifty million dollars.

Amazing that you've never heard of. And that's what today's episode is. The person that we have on Jess Mah she has built herself I don't know, ten companies that have combined, you know, they're worth nine hundred and fifty million dollars.

00:22

She,

She,

00:24

And not only the just has she made a bunch of money or been successful with business, but

And not only the just has she made a bunch of money or been successful with business, but

00:28

she's just a force of nature. People that I respect

she's just a force of nature. People that I respect

00:31

she's one of the best entrepreneurs in the world. And that's kind of amazing for somebody who you don't know her name. You've never really seen her do interviews.

she's one of the best entrepreneurs in the world. And that's kind of amazing for somebody who you don't know her name. You've never really seen her do interviews.

00:38

You know, Paul Graham, when when he met her and she was at YC, put her on the very short list of a couple people with Sam Altman and a few others as the most impressive people. The people that he thought thirty years from now will have done done the most and gone the furthest.

You know, Paul Graham, when when he met her and she was at YC, put her on the very short list of a couple people with Sam Altman and a few others as the most impressive people. The people that he thought thirty years from now will have done done the most and gone the furthest.

00:51

I was at a dinner. That's how I met her. And a friend of mine pointed out, he goes, is that woman over there?

I was at a dinner. That's how I met her. And a friend of mine pointed out, he goes, is that woman over there?

00:56

Is the best entrepreneur I've ever met? And he's lived in Silicon Valley for fifteen years. And to say that, that's high praise.

Is the best entrepreneur I've ever met? And he's lived in Silicon Valley for fifteen years. And to say that, that's high praise.

01:02

So I had to have her on the podcast to talk about

So I had to have her on the podcast to talk about

01:05

everything from her beginning.

everything from her beginning.

01:07

Where she was basically,

Where she was basically,

01:09

a a loser amongst loser losers in school. She talks about, like, you know, not only was she not cool even in the computer club, she got bullied and didn't really fit into school, didn't get good grades,

a a loser amongst loser losers in school. She talks about, like, you know, not only was she not cool even in the computer club, she got bullied and didn't really fit into school, didn't get good grades,

01:21

really, like, was just kinda, like, school wasn't for her. She ended up dropping out of high school. Because school wasn't for her. She's but she started a business. And it started off as a very and, you know, when she was a teenager, she ended up making hundreds of thousands of dollars on this little server business that she was creating. Just paying for her own video games. We talk about that all the way to where she is today,

really, like, was just kinda, like, school wasn't for her. She ended up dropping out of high school. Because school wasn't for her. She's but she started a business. And it started off as a very and, you know, when she was a teenager, she ended up making hundreds of thousands of dollars on this little server business that she was creating. Just paying for her own video games. We talk about that all the way to where she is today,

01:39

building these biotech companies that are doing crazy stuff

building these biotech companies that are doing crazy stuff

01:43

and I asked her, I was like, were you, like, a science genius? Like, how did you know to go in this? How did you have the confidence to go into a space like that? Like, I think we all I think there's a part of all of us that wants to go do the big, bold, crazy change the world thing, but we're afraid. Like, who am I to go do that? At least that's a thought I've had. And, it was kind of amazing to hear her talk about. She felt the same way. Like, she's like, I gotta see minors in biology. And now I have, like, a nine figure, you know, hundred million dollar plus bio company. Like, that's crazy to do that. And and how she approached that? How did she meet these scientists? How did she get the funding? How did she actually talk herself into doing that from rock bottom where she was completely depressed and didn't know what she wanted her to do with her life to now,

and I asked her, I was like, were you, like, a science genius? Like, how did you know to go in this? How did you have the confidence to go into a space like that? Like, I think we all I think there's a part of all of us that wants to go do the big, bold, crazy change the world thing, but we're afraid. Like, who am I to go do that? At least that's a thought I've had. And, it was kind of amazing to hear her talk about. She felt the same way. Like, she's like, I gotta see minors in biology. And now I have, like, a nine figure, you know, hundred million dollar plus bio company. Like, that's crazy to do that. And and how she approached that? How did she meet these scientists? How did she get the funding? How did she actually talk herself into doing that from rock bottom where she was completely depressed and didn't know what she wanted her to do with her life to now,

02:25

you know, living the kind of life she wants. The other thing that's in this episode that I think you're gonna like is

you know, living the kind of life she wants. The other thing that's in this episode that I think you're gonna like is

02:30

she talks a lot about the lifestyle

she talks a lot about the lifestyle

02:33

and financial stuff

and financial stuff

02:35

that come from people who are already really successful. So she, you know, like, I'm gonna give you a trigger warning now.

that come from people who are already really successful. So she, you know, like, I'm gonna give you a trigger warning now.

02:41

She talks about, like, you know, Yeah. I just, like, I hop on my jet. Like, you know, and I bought this jet. I bought it for this reason. Here's the tax write off that I got. She's very open and very,

She talks about, like, you know, Yeah. I just, like, I hop on my jet. Like, you know, and I bought this jet. I bought it for this reason. Here's the tax write off that I got. She's very open and very,

02:50

clear about this stuff. And and I think for some people who are at the very beginning, it's gonna feel unrelatable, or it's gonna feel like, oh, yeah. You know, the a classic YouTube comment guy who's, like, easy for you to say you're already rich. But I think the important thing to figure out is she successful because she always thinks this way. She she talks about her mindset, and that's why she was able to do this. And also, I love when people talk about money stuff.

clear about this stuff. And and I think for some people who are at the very beginning, it's gonna feel unrelatable, or it's gonna feel like, oh, yeah. You know, the a classic YouTube comment guy who's, like, easy for you to say you're already rich. But I think the important thing to figure out is she successful because she always thinks this way. She she talks about her mindset, and that's why she was able to do this. And also, I love when people talk about money stuff.

03:13

I love when they're open and honest. I hate the billionaire who downplays it and pretends, like, you know, they're flying coach. And, oh, you know, money's no big deal. And I I oh, yeah. I don't I don't really do anything with my taxes. I like to hear what people actually do, how they use money to improve their life, how they architect their businesses.

I love when they're open and honest. I hate the billionaire who downplays it and pretends, like, you know, they're flying coach. And, oh, you know, money's no big deal. And I I oh, yeah. I don't I don't really do anything with my taxes. I like to hear what people actually do, how they use money to improve their life, how they architect their businesses.

03:28

She does that. She's very open about it. So that's all in this episode. I think you're gonna enjoy it. This is an episode with Jessica Mom.

She does that. She's very open about it. So that's all in this episode. I think you're gonna enjoy it. This is an episode with Jessica Mom.

03:43

Alright. It's good to see you. Good to see you again.

Alright. It's good to see you. Good to see you again.

03:46

I wanna tell people the story of how we met, which is not like this extravagant story, but it is one that,

I wanna tell people the story of how we met, which is not like this extravagant story, but it is one that,

03:53

I don't know. It's, like, it's this thing that happens that

I don't know. It's, like, it's this thing that happens that

03:58

is, like, I would have bet anything that you're an interesting person just on the way that this meeting went. So we got a dinner together. So that's, like, signal one.

is, like, I would have bet anything that you're an interesting person just on the way that this meeting went. So we got a dinner together. So that's, like, signal one.

04:05

You know, a friend hosts a dinner, and it's, like, only friends inviting friends to this thing. That's gonna be, like, you know, some sort of founder investor type of dinner. Already you got filter number one. Filter number two is I'm sitting at one end of the table. You're sitting at the far end of this other table, but

You know, a friend hosts a dinner, and it's, like, only friends inviting friends to this thing. That's gonna be, like, you know, some sort of founder investor type of dinner. Already you got filter number one. Filter number two is I'm sitting at one end of the table. You're sitting at the far end of this other table, but

04:21

our mutual friend Sieva tells me, he's like, I was like, oh, what's her name? And he's like, oh, yeah, that's Jess Ma. He says,

our mutual friend Sieva tells me, he's like, I was like, oh, what's her name? And he's like, oh, yeah, that's Jess Ma. He says,

04:28

he's like, yes. She is

he's like, yes. She is

04:30

the most impressive entrepreneur I've ever met.

the most impressive entrepreneur I've ever met.

04:33

And I was like, okay. I didn't even ask. And he just says that, and he's he he basically gives you this extreme compliment

And I was like, okay. I didn't even ask. And he just says that, and he's he he basically gives you this extreme compliment

04:40

And I was like,

And I was like,

04:42

that's extreme. And he's like, yeah. She's extreme. And I was like, okay. I gotta know more. So already I got a signal. Next I noticed that you had your dog in the restaurant. And I was like, okay. That's awesome. Love dogs. Dogs here. And later, I was like, is like, a service animal? Because it's kinda, like, a nice restaurant. And you were, like yeah. Amazon. You could buy this for ten dollars. This vest And, like, look, and you flashed me, like, an FBI badge that was, like, a, service dog thing. And I was, like, Did you buy that? And you're like, yeah. This is great. And I was like, wow.

that's extreme. And he's like, yeah. She's extreme. And I was like, okay. I gotta know more. So already I got a signal. Next I noticed that you had your dog in the restaurant. And I was like, okay. That's awesome. Love dogs. Dogs here. And later, I was like, is like, a service animal? Because it's kinda, like, a nice restaurant. And you were, like yeah. Amazon. You could buy this for ten dollars. This vest And, like, look, and you flashed me, like, an FBI badge that was, like, a, service dog thing. And I was, like, Did you buy that? And you're like, yeah. This is great. And I was like, wow.

05:15

This person is just, you know, so there's only a little signal. Somebody rolls by their own little rules. My friend telling me that you're, you know, one of the most baddest people that he's ever met literally in the game of entrepreneurship.

This person is just, you know, so there's only a little signal. Somebody rolls by their own little rules. My friend telling me that you're, you know, one of the most baddest people that he's ever met literally in the game of entrepreneurship.

05:26

And, and then when you did your intro, you said something you go

And, and then when you did your intro, you said something you go

05:30

yeah. I'm working on, like, I started this thing Indinero, which I've heard of, and you were like, you know, it started that. And now I I sit on the board, like, you know, whatever ten companies.

yeah. I'm working on, like, I started this thing Indinero, which I've heard of, and you were like, you know, it started that. And now I I sit on the board, like, you know, whatever ten companies.

05:39

And, we do, like, bold science bets.

And, we do, like, bold science bets.

05:42

And

And

05:43

you didn't even explain it. And I was, like, okay. Well, you have my interest. What's a bold science bet? And you were, like, you know, like, curing cancer, but not, like, the typical way, like, this other path to curing cancer. You, like, you, like, kinda nonchalantly gave you some answer as to what a bold science bet would be. And I was like, okay. Say no more. I need to meet this person. I need to get to know this person, and I've gotten to know you a little bit now. And, yeah, you are just that impressive. So this is my build up

you didn't even explain it. And I was, like, okay. Well, you have my interest. What's a bold science bet? And you were, like, you know, like, curing cancer, but not, like, the typical way, like, this other path to curing cancer. You, like, you, like, kinda nonchalantly gave you some answer as to what a bold science bet would be. And I was like, okay. Say no more. I need to meet this person. I need to get to know this person, and I've gotten to know you a little bit now. And, yeah, you are just that impressive. So this is my build up

06:08

That is my perception. And

That is my perception. And

06:10

tell me what that feels like to hear because that's people never tell you their actual perception, first impressions,

tell me what that feels like to hear because that's people never tell you their actual perception, first impressions,

06:16

as they remember it, you know, in their own head. That's amazing. It was super fun to have that dinner and meet you that night. I just had a good feeling that we were gonna have a fun time. And normally, I don't go out. I'm kinda, like, a loner. I like to be at home and, you know, just take it easy after work. And,

as they remember it, you know, in their own head. That's amazing. It was super fun to have that dinner and meet you that night. I just had a good feeling that we were gonna have a fun time. And normally, I don't go out. I'm kinda, like, a loner. I like to be at home and, you know, just take it easy after work. And,

06:34

you know, it's a lot to deal with with. Ten companies, we're gonna add more companies this next year and

you know, it's a lot to deal with with. Ten companies, we're gonna add more companies this next year and

06:41

trying to figure out, like, where do I wanna spend my time as an entrepreneur? And that's an ongoing question. I'm sure we'll talk about that. But I've heard about you.

trying to figure out, like, where do I wanna spend my time as an entrepreneur? And that's an ongoing question. I'm sure we'll talk about that. But I've heard about you.

06:48

You know, I I've seen your podcast, and you're famous. So it's kind of an honor to get to, be friends with you too. So

You know, I I've seen your podcast, and you're famous. So it's kind of an honor to get to, be friends with you too. So

06:58

Our software's the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot?

Our software's the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot?

07:01

See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. Hubspot.

See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. Hubspot.

07:11

Grow better.

Grow better.

07:13

Well, the other thing that's cool is you have a hold co And, like, you know, if I was gonna say, what are some of the themes of, like,

Well, the other thing that's cool is you have a hold co And, like, you know, if I was gonna say, what are some of the themes of, like,

07:20

almost like entrepreneurship trends? Like, there's fashion trends, but now there's entrepreneurship trends. One of the entrepreneurship trends is this hold personal hold co model. But what most people are doing with the personal hold co, I would say is kinda like small boy stuff. It's, like, we acquired this little SaaS app or, like, you know, I'm gonna

almost like entrepreneurship trends? Like, there's fashion trends, but now there's entrepreneurship trends. One of the entrepreneurship trends is this hold personal hold co model. But what most people are doing with the personal hold co, I would say is kinda like small boy stuff. It's, like, we acquired this little SaaS app or, like, you know, I'm gonna

07:37

I I'm gonna buy this this plumbing business and I'm doing this hold co to roll these up.

I I'm gonna buy this this plumbing business and I'm doing this hold co to roll these up.

07:43

And you kind of have a hold co, but you also have the big venture

And you kind of have a hold co, but you also have the big venture

07:48

change the world kinda thing inside of it. Which I find really fascinating. So you're like, yes. I'm doing a hold co, but the hold co is gonna be all sort of game changers type of, like, go big or go home type of bets. I find that really interesting. I also think that another entrepreneurship trend is doing hard stuff. So I think Elon really pop you know, popularized, like,

change the world kinda thing inside of it. Which I find really fascinating. So you're like, yes. I'm doing a hold co, but the hold co is gonna be all sort of game changers type of, like, go big or go home type of bets. I find that really interesting. I also think that another entrepreneurship trend is doing hard stuff. So I think Elon really pop you know, popularized, like,

08:07

Yeah. You can create the next kinda app, and that's cute. But I'm gonna make rockets and electric cars. And then, you know, then you have AI and Sam Altman, and that's, like, you know, the kind of cutting edge science

Yeah. You can create the next kinda app, and that's cute. But I'm gonna make rockets and electric cars. And then, you know, then you have AI and Sam Altman, and that's, like, you know, the kind of cutting edge science

08:18

do hard stuff movement. And I think you're a part of that too. And so I really like that you're here because you represent,

do hard stuff movement. And I think you're a part of that too. And so I really like that you're here because you represent,

08:25

you know, some intersection of these trends. And there's very few people that really play that game. And, that's what I wanted to to learn from you today is is why do you play that game and how do you do it? But let's give people, like,

you know, some intersection of these trends. And there's very few people that really play that game. And, that's what I wanted to to learn from you today is is why do you play that game and how do you do it? But let's give people, like,

08:36

I guess, the quick

I guess, the quick

08:38

background,

background,

08:40

of you. So can you give me kind of like your how do you introduce yourself when you're trying to brag a little bit,

of you. So can you give me kind of like your how do you introduce yourself when you're trying to brag a little bit,

08:45

about, you know, why anybody should pay attention to what you have to say?

about, you know, why anybody should pay attention to what you have to say?

08:50

I'll I'll be honest. I'm really shy,

I'll I'll be honest. I'm really shy,

08:53

and it's hard for me to talk about these things because everyone I meet is so impressive So no matter what, I feel like the dumbest person in the room and the least successful person in the room.

and it's hard for me to talk about these things because everyone I meet is so impressive So no matter what, I feel like the dumbest person in the room and the least successful person in the room.

09:04

And,

And,

09:05

and so that's really hard for me to talk about still, but

and so that's really hard for me to talk about still, but

09:09

just to catch everyone up,

just to catch everyone up,

09:11

I'm an entrepreneur. I've started so many companies now. My first company was called Indinero.

I'm an entrepreneur. I've started so many companies now. My first company was called Indinero.

09:17

And Indinero is a financial SaaS company, we do accounting, tax, bill pay management software and services for businesses,

And Indinero is a financial SaaS company, we do accounting, tax, bill pay management software and services for businesses,

09:23

and our customers were companies like Slack, right, Pinterest, DoorDash, Instacart,

and our customers were companies like Slack, right, Pinterest, DoorDash, Instacart,

09:28

Coinbase.

Coinbase.

09:29

And I started that straight after college. I studied computer science at UC Berkeley.

And I started that straight after college. I studied computer science at UC Berkeley.

09:34

And

And

09:35

when I was a senior at Berkeley, I was running the computer science club, and,

when I was a senior at Berkeley, I was running the computer science club, and,

09:39

I brought in these speakers, and one of the speakers I brought in was this kid named Sam Altman. He was building a company called Loopt. And I'm like, hey, Sam. What should I do after college? And he said, oh, you should do YC and he helped review my application

I brought in these speakers, and one of the speakers I brought in was this kid named Sam Altman. He was building a company called Loopt. And I'm like, hey, Sam. What should I do after college? And he said, oh, you should do YC and he helped review my application

09:52

and,

and,

09:53

and then the rest of the history. So I did that for ten years. Grew that to a few hundred people.

and then the rest of the history. So I did that for ten years. Grew that to a few hundred people.

09:59

Valuation and the hundreds of millions of dollars. But the way I built that business was I didn't raise

Valuation and the hundreds of millions of dollars. But the way I built that business was I didn't raise

10:05

traditional venture funding. I didn't bring in VC Capital. I I only brought in some angel investors.

traditional venture funding. I didn't bring in VC Capital. I I only brought in some angel investors.

10:10

I was able to retain most of, the ownership in the company.

I was able to retain most of, the ownership in the company.

10:15

And, and it's, cash flowing, you know, profitable business to this day. So so that was kind of my first

And, and it's, cash flowing, you know, profitable business to this day. So so that was kind of my first

10:22

foray into business.

foray into business.

10:24

And,

And,

10:25

lots of ups and downs and, like, you know, being weeks away from insolvency multiple times over, And I think it's because we were undercapitalized,

lots of ups and downs and, like, you know, being weeks away from insolvency multiple times over, And I think it's because we were undercapitalized,

10:33

and I always ran things a little too close to the edge there.

and I always ran things a little too close to the edge there.

10:38

And,

And,

10:38

and I was pretty public about that. I mean, if you Google search me, you'll see that I've survived a bunch of near death experiences with that business.

and I was pretty public about that. I mean, if you Google search me, you'll see that I've survived a bunch of near death experiences with that business.

10:46

And

And

10:47

Eventually, I I realized I didn't want to be a CEO anymore.

Eventually, I I realized I didn't want to be a CEO anymore.

10:52

I grew up with this mindset of you have to be the operator

I grew up with this mindset of you have to be the operator

10:57

And if you're not the CEO

And if you're not the CEO

10:58

and make a company at unicorn, you are a failure.

and make a company at unicorn, you are a failure.

11:02

And

And

11:03

I just didn't that didn't land well with me. I

I just didn't that didn't land well with me. I

11:06

I Google searched, you know, the world's billionaires. And I'm like, how do these people become billionaires? And most of them

I Google searched, you know, the world's billionaires. And I'm like, how do these people become billionaires? And most of them

11:13

built companies, a lot of them were diversified holding companies, and they held on to these companies for decades.

built companies, a lot of them were diversified holding companies, and they held on to these companies for decades.

11:19

And a lot of them, they weren't the CEO or the operator.

And a lot of them, they weren't the CEO or the operator.

11:23

They were more like investment manager.

They were more like investment manager.

11:26

And,

And,

11:27

I mean, Warren Buffett's a great example of this.

I mean, Warren Buffett's a great example of this.

11:30

But there are many, many more like that. And so that kinda got me thinking,

But there are many, many more like that. And so that kinda got me thinking,

11:34

Hmm, am I doing this wrong? Am I just listening to Silicon Valley

Hmm, am I doing this wrong? Am I just listening to Silicon Valley

11:38

rhetoric,

rhetoric,

11:38

that's pointing me in the wrong direction.

that's pointing me in the wrong direction.

11:41

And,

And,

11:42

and then a few years ago, I went through a really tough experience where,

and then a few years ago, I went through a really tough experience where,

11:46

my boyfriend who I I was living with,

my boyfriend who I I was living with,

11:48

died very unexpectedly.

died very unexpectedly.

11:51

And I was going through a really dark period after that where I was not able to work.

And I was going through a really dark period after that where I was not able to work.

11:56

I just couldn't I woke up in the morning, and I'd be super depressed.

I just couldn't I woke up in the morning, and I'd be super depressed.

12:00

And I

And I

12:02

didn't want to do anything.

didn't want to do anything.

12:04

And I thought, what would I do

And I thought, what would I do

12:07

if

if

12:09

if,

if,

12:10

I was gonna die this year? If this was my last year here because I'm so depressed and I have to make myself happy, what would I do? And running a company was not on the list. So I immediately hired a CEO for Indinero.

I was gonna die this year? If this was my last year here because I'm so depressed and I have to make myself happy, what would I do? And running a company was not on the list. So I immediately hired a CEO for Indinero.

12:22

I had another company that I had started that I brought in a friend to run.

I had another company that I had started that I brought in a friend to run.

12:26

It's a litigation fintech company.

It's a litigation fintech company.

12:28

And,

And,

12:29

that company originates and funds lawsuits. So, you know, like, the personal injury, billboard you see on the side of the road, We do that in a very sophisticated way.

that company originates and funds lawsuits. So, you know, like, the personal injury, billboard you see on the side of the road, We do that in a very sophisticated way.

12:39

A lot of details, I I really would wish I could talk more about, but, you know, I don't wanna invite competition there. And then I've started a bunch of other interesting businesses like that, which also, if you go look at my website, mahway.com, I don't go into much detail Actually, I don't mention any of the detail on these businesses for the same reason.

A lot of details, I I really would wish I could talk more about, but, you know, I don't wanna invite competition there. And then I've started a bunch of other interesting businesses like that, which also, if you go look at my website, mahway.com, I don't go into much detail Actually, I don't mention any of the detail on these businesses for the same reason.

12:57

I'd rather build quietly

I'd rather build quietly

12:59

and come up with these really interesting ideas

and come up with these really interesting ideas

13:02

Find someone to go build those businesses

Find someone to go build those businesses

13:05

and a good chunk of them are businesses that would just print cash, but a lot of them are more bold.

and a good chunk of them are businesses that would just print cash, but a lot of them are more bold.

13:11

And that's why you're interested in the biotech stuff. I just thought, what would I do if I wasn't scared of failure? And after my boyfriend died, I thought a lot more about that. I thought, like, I shouldn't be scared of trying and failing because

And that's why you're interested in the biotech stuff. I just thought, what would I do if I wasn't scared of failure? And after my boyfriend died, I thought a lot more about that. I thought, like, I shouldn't be scared of trying and failing because

13:25

I've seen rock bottom.

I've seen rock bottom.

13:27

I can't my life can't get any worse than it is today. So I might as well try something.

I can't my life can't get any worse than it is today. So I might as well try something.

13:33

You know? And,

You know? And,

13:35

that's that's where I landed with that. That's an amazing story. And, that question of, like, what would I do if I wasn't afraid of failing

that's that's where I landed with that. That's an amazing story. And, that question of, like, what would I do if I wasn't afraid of failing

13:44

is

is

13:45

like, up there in the pantheon of great questions. I asked myself that same question and it changed I wouldn't be doing this podcast if it wasn't because I had three paths that I had written out. I remember I made a Figma file, and I was, like, drawing, like, a flowchart of my life. And I was, like, I could start a company maybe it'll be this, maybe it'll be this. And that was, like you said, the Silicon Valley rhetoric, because

like, up there in the pantheon of great questions. I asked myself that same question and it changed I wouldn't be doing this podcast if it wasn't because I had three paths that I had written out. I remember I made a Figma file, and I was, like, drawing, like, a flowchart of my life. And I was, like, I could start a company maybe it'll be this, maybe it'll be this. And that was, like you said, the Silicon Valley rhetoric, because

14:06

what gets written about is the visionary CEO founder who creates the next big thing. And that's the movies are about social network. And, you know, the the TechCrunch articles are about that. The VCs want you to be that because they're, like, Yeah. Sweet. I get to write a check and chill, and, like, you go do the, like, you go win the lottery and do all the hard work at the same time. Like, do the low odds

what gets written about is the visionary CEO founder who creates the next big thing. And that's the movies are about social network. And, you know, the the TechCrunch articles are about that. The VCs want you to be that because they're, like, Yeah. Sweet. I get to write a check and chill, and, like, you go do the, like, you go win the lottery and do all the hard work at the same time. Like, do the low odds

14:27

hardest thing you can do, you know, over there. So I was like, I could go start a company.

hardest thing you can do, you know, over there. So I was like, I could go start a company.

14:32

I could invest and just kind of, like, be on the other side of that. That's I don't know if that would be the most fun thing that I would do. And then I was, like and I really wrote or I could be Tim Ferris. And I was, think I wanna be Tim Ferris. I was like, well, why don't I just do that? I've been thinking about this for, like, seven years in the back of my mind. I was like, well, because what if I'm not What if it doesn't work? Then I'm just a guy with a podcast. It's cool to be Tim Ferris. It's not cool to be the guy with a podcast, like a podcast, just normal podcaster with a hundred views. Or listens per episode or something. And I was like,

I could invest and just kind of, like, be on the other side of that. That's I don't know if that would be the most fun thing that I would do. And then I was, like and I really wrote or I could be Tim Ferris. And I was, think I wanna be Tim Ferris. I was like, well, why don't I just do that? I've been thinking about this for, like, seven years in the back of my mind. I was like, well, because what if I'm not What if it doesn't work? Then I'm just a guy with a podcast. It's cool to be Tim Ferris. It's not cool to be the guy with a podcast, like a podcast, just normal podcaster with a hundred views. Or listens per episode or something. And I was like,

15:04

alright. So am I just gonna not do it because I'm afraid that I might fail at it?

alright. So am I just gonna not do it because I'm afraid that I might fail at it?

15:09

Like, what's the worst that could happen? And I kinda had this whole talk with myself. You know, the most important talks are not with mentors. They're the talks with yourself. And it sounds like you had one of those too where you were, like, what would I do if I if I wasn't afraid to fail? Can you just talk a little bit more about that talk with yourself? Because I think everybody should have that some version of that talk with themselves.

Like, what's the worst that could happen? And I kinda had this whole talk with myself. You know, the most important talks are not with mentors. They're the talks with yourself. And it sounds like you had one of those too where you were, like, what would I do if I if I wasn't afraid to fail? Can you just talk a little bit more about that talk with yourself? Because I think everybody should have that some version of that talk with themselves.

15:28

Yeah. I I think just expand on that. A big question I asked myself was also

Yeah. I I think just expand on that. A big question I asked myself was also

15:35

how will I deal with the insecurity

how will I deal with the insecurity

15:38

of feeling like a beginner and terrible at something? Despite the fact that for the past ten years, I got pretty good at being a CEO and running a business.

of feeling like a beginner and terrible at something? Despite the fact that for the past ten years, I got pretty good at being a CEO and running a business.

15:47

I'm sure you felt the same way, right, where you're a great entrepreneur, and then now you're getting into you know, building content and interviewing great folks. And that's the new skill set that you had to become good at. But for a while,

I'm sure you felt the same way, right, where you're a great entrepreneur, and then now you're getting into you know, building content and interviewing great folks. And that's the new skill set that you had to become good at. But for a while,

15:59

it's awkward and, like, the I'm sure your first videos were not nearly as good as the ones that you posted over the past few months. Right? And so that's a lot of the self talk. It's like, oh my god. I didn't do a good job. I still don't know what I'm doing. People don't take me seriously.

it's awkward and, like, the I'm sure your first videos were not nearly as good as the ones that you posted over the past few months. Right? And so that's a lot of the self talk. It's like, oh my god. I didn't do a good job. I still don't know what I'm doing. People don't take me seriously.

16:14

Do I even take myself seriously?

Do I even take myself seriously?

16:17

And

And

16:18

meditating on that and thinking, you know what? It doesn't matter because I'm having a great time. I'm learning a lot.

meditating on that and thinking, you know what? It doesn't matter because I'm having a great time. I'm learning a lot.

16:24

And the outcome will work itself out. That's you'll let it, but how about for you? Like, what's what are your other best practices?

And the outcome will work itself out. That's you'll let it, but how about for you? Like, what's what are your other best practices?

16:31

Yeah. So being a beginner,

Yeah. So being a beginner,

16:33

being okay, like, that mental prep for yourself of I'm gonna be a beginner at this. I think is

being okay, like, that mental prep for yourself of I'm gonna be a beginner at this. I think is

16:39

also a very important part of that conversation. I'm glad you said that because it's one thing to just say Well,

also a very important part of that conversation. I'm glad you said that because it's one thing to just say Well,

16:46

what would I do if I wasn't afraid? But then, like, the fear is still gonna be there. It's not just gonna disappear when you ask that question. And the fear is what? The fear of being wrong, being failing, looking dumb, all those things. And so that beginner conversation

what would I do if I wasn't afraid? But then, like, the fear is still gonna be there. It's not just gonna disappear when you ask that question. And the fear is what? The fear of being wrong, being failing, looking dumb, all those things. And so that beginner conversation

16:58

is important, which is cool. If I go into this, I'm gonna start as a complete beginner.

is important, which is cool. If I go into this, I'm gonna start as a complete beginner.

17:03

I'm gonna get better at it over time because I'm good at learning, and I'll try.

I'm gonna get better at it over time because I'm good at learning, and I'll try.

17:06

And,

And,

17:08

you know, if I don't need to become the world expert at this, but I need to become competent at this, and that might take me six months to a year. That's like a reasonable expectation

you know, if I don't need to become the world expert at this, but I need to become competent at this, and that might take me six months to a year. That's like a reasonable expectation

17:15

if I really put my mind to this.

if I really put my mind to this.

17:17

It reminds me of the story I've told on the pod before of Moiz Ali who created Native deodorant. And deodorant's not curing cancer or whatever, but it is,

It reminds me of the story I've told on the pod before of Moiz Ali who created Native deodorant. And deodorant's not curing cancer or whatever, but it is,

17:26

you know, still, it's a totally different space. And so when he told his friends. He's like, I think I'm gonna create a deodorant brand. And they were, like,

you know, still, it's a totally different space. And so when he told his friends. He's like, I think I'm gonna create a deodorant brand. And they were, like,

17:34

cool,

cool,

17:35

random. You know, do you Do you even wear deodorant? Like, do you know anything about deodorant? And he's like, today, I know nothing about deodorant, but in six months, I'll know everything I need to know about deodorant.

random. You know, do you Do you even wear deodorant? Like, do you know anything about deodorant? And he's like, today, I know nothing about deodorant, but in six months, I'll know everything I need to know about deodorant.

17:46

And that idea of, like, writing yourself a blank check, I think, is really important

And that idea of, like, writing yourself a blank check, I think, is really important

17:52

to,

to,

17:52

to starting anything.

to starting anything.

17:54

And you told me this when I was like, dude, you're, like, working on crazy science stuff.

And you told me this when I was like, dude, you're, like, working on crazy science stuff.

17:59

I like that idea, and I wish I could do that, but it feels above my intellectual pay grade.

I like that idea, and I wish I could do that, but it feels above my intellectual pay grade.

18:05

Are you just a science genius? And you were, like, no. I got, like, it's you were, like, I got, like, a C in biology in school, and then, like, you know, what, you're, like, I hired a tutor to, like, as an adult to, like, learn about this, and I watched TED Talks and podcasts, and then and then I flew out and I met the scientists and talked to them. You just did all of the, like,

Are you just a science genius? And you were, like, no. I got, like, it's you were, like, I got, like, a C in biology in school, and then, like, you know, what, you're, like, I hired a tutor to, like, as an adult to, like, learn about this, and I watched TED Talks and podcasts, and then and then I flew out and I met the scientists and talked to them. You just did all of the, like,

18:22

normal blocking and tackling, I feel with, like, just like,

normal blocking and tackling, I feel with, like, just like,

18:25

is that how you would describe it? Like, is that that was totally different for me? I just put you on a pedestal. I was like, oh, maybe she's doing because she's just smarter than all of us. And that's why she could do this and nobody else can.

is that how you would describe it? Like, is that that was totally different for me? I just put you on a pedestal. I was like, oh, maybe she's doing because she's just smarter than all of us. And that's why she could do this and nobody else can.

18:36

No. I still have major insecurities

No. I still have major insecurities

18:38

that about this. In fact, last night, I dreamt again.

that about this. In fact, last night, I dreamt again.

18:43

This is a recurring nightmare where I

This is a recurring nightmare where I

18:45

am getting

am getting

18:46

Cs in school, and I am very close to flunking and having to repeat a grade.

Cs in school, and I am very close to flunking and having to repeat a grade.

18:53

And I got Cs also in biology when I was in high school. So I thought I could do a lot of things with my life, but anything related to biology is not one of those things.

And I got Cs also in biology when I was in high school. So I thought I could do a lot of things with my life, but anything related to biology is not one of those things.

19:04

And then when I was,

And then when I was,

19:07

so I was on the cover of Inc magazine,

so I was on the cover of Inc magazine,

19:10

a bunch of years ago.

a bunch of years ago.

19:12

And

And

19:13

There was a woman who who was on the cover a month before me. Her name's Elizabeth Holmes.

There was a woman who who was on the cover a month before me. Her name's Elizabeth Holmes.

19:19

And,

And,

19:20

you know, obviously,

you know, obviously,

19:21

we all know what happened.

we all know what happened.

19:23

And so when she got,

And so when she got,

19:26

you know, when Theranos went under and the whole thing happened, I thought, wow.

you know, when Theranos went under and the whole thing happened, I thought, wow.

19:30

Bios really hard.

Bios really hard.

19:32

And I would be so paranoid and scared of doing anything in biotech because I don't wanna go to prison. Now, obviously, you know, there's more to the story there, and I don't think I'm gonna go to prison.

And I would be so paranoid and scared of doing anything in biotech because I don't wanna go to prison. Now, obviously, you know, there's more to the story there, and I don't think I'm gonna go to prison.

19:42

But, like, the thought crossed my mind. Like, should I even risk my life and my career if everything's

But, like, the thought crossed my mind. Like, should I even risk my life and my career if everything's

19:47

okay. Like, why

okay. Like, why

19:49

do something hard and where the last woman who tried to do something here, you know, got,

do something hard and where the last woman who tried to do something here, you know, got,

19:55

you know, totally destroyed by the media and is now in prison. Like, that's not a really good inspiration

you know, totally destroyed by the media and is now in prison. Like, that's not a really good inspiration

20:01

for me to try to be the next Elizabeth Holmes, but you didn't fuck up as bad. You know? That's So that went through my head, and I had to overcome that. And then eventually I decided, you know what? Fuck it. I wanna give it a try, I'm going to...

for me to try to be the next Elizabeth Holmes, but you didn't fuck up as bad. You know? That's So that went through my head, and I had to overcome that. And then eventually I decided, you know what? Fuck it. I wanna give it a try, I'm going to...

20:15

You know, just learn and so I hired a biology tutor. I, like, digest digested all the information,

You know, just learn and so I hired a biology tutor. I, like, digest digested all the information,

20:22

and I brought in people who've been

and I brought in people who've been

20:26

running biotech companies and who had been part of, big bio. So that's

running biotech companies and who had been part of, big bio. So that's

20:32

that's really how I operate. It's just bringing other people smarter than I am. Another question

that's really how I operate. It's just bringing other people smarter than I am. Another question

20:37

I would wanna ask you, and it's something I ask a lot of my best friends is what would you do if you were a billionaire?

I would wanna ask you, and it's something I ask a lot of my best friends is what would you do if you were a billionaire?

20:45

And if you had, like, billion in hard cash in the bank account,

And if you had, like, billion in hard cash in the bank account,

20:50

And,

And,

20:52

you are not allowed to do what you're doing today. How would you devote your life? And it's so fascinating to hear the answers that

you are not allowed to do what you're doing today. How would you devote your life? And it's so fascinating to hear the answers that

20:59

that I I get from my friends. And I'd say, occasionally,

that I I get from my friends. And I'd say, occasionally,

21:02

it's I I'm doing what I'm doing

it's I I'm doing what I'm doing

21:05

today. I would just keep on doing that. I I hear that from my more successful friends.

today. I would just keep on doing that. I I hear that from my more successful friends.

21:10

But from people who hadn't made it per se, it's very thought provoking.

But from people who hadn't made it per se, it's very thought provoking.

21:14

That is a great question.

That is a great question.

21:16

I can tell quick story, and then I'm gonna answer that question. So the quick story version is when we got acquired by Twitch,

I can tell quick story, and then I'm gonna answer that question. So the quick story version is when we got acquired by Twitch,

21:24

I grabbed I was like, first day, what do I wanna do? I was like, Let me go find my people because I went into this all of a sudden, I'm in a company of two thousand people who, you know, each are doing their little function in this company

I grabbed I was like, first day, what do I wanna do? I was like, Let me go find my people because I went into this all of a sudden, I'm in a company of two thousand people who, you know, each are doing their little function in this company

21:35

I was like, where my entrepreneurs at? Like, where are the people who like to, like, you know, make shit happen? And so there was a company that had gotten acquired a few years earlier.

I was like, where my entrepreneurs at? Like, where are the people who like to, like, you know, make shit happen? And so there was a company that had gotten acquired a few years earlier.

21:43

And, three years earlier. And they got bought for, like, I don't know. I wanna say, like, a hundred million dollars. And the founder was one of the founders was still working there. And so I we go out to lunch. And I was like, hey. Can we meet? He's like, yeah. Let's go to the cafeteria. I was like, no. No. I just need to leave this building. I'm having, like, big company, claustrophobia.

And, three years earlier. And they got bought for, like, I don't know. I wanna say, like, a hundred million dollars. And the founder was one of the founders was still working there. And so I we go out to lunch. And I was like, hey. Can we meet? He's like, yeah. Let's go to the cafeteria. I was like, no. No. I just need to leave this building. I'm having, like, big company, claustrophobia.

21:59

They need to get out of this building. So we go to a lunch and I say, why are you still here?

They need to get out of this building. So we go to a lunch and I say, why are you still here?

22:04

And he's like, what do you mean? Like, it's going great. We're working on stuff. I'm like, yeah. But, like,

And he's like, what do you mean? Like, it's going great. We're working on stuff. I'm like, yeah. But, like,

22:10

You know, is this what you wanna do? Like, you're here you're three years in, and I'm looking in the mirror thinking,

You know, is this what you wanna do? Like, you're here you're three years in, and I'm looking in the mirror thinking,

22:15

you know, do I wanna be here in three years? There's no way I wanna be here three, four now, you're going on to year four. And, you're drinking this company Kool Aid. What did what happened to you? Where why are you still here? And he was like, you know, slightly offended, but he was like, no. It's great. I'm having fun. I'm learning a bunch. I go, let me ask you the question differently.

you know, do I wanna be here in three years? There's no way I wanna be here three, four now, you're going on to year four. And, you're drinking this company Kool Aid. What did what happened to you? Where why are you still here? And he was like, you know, slightly offended, but he was like, no. It's great. I'm having fun. I'm learning a bunch. I go, let me ask you the question differently.

22:33

It sound it sounds like what you're saying is you don't wanna be doing anything else. Right? And he goes, yeah. And I go.

It sound it sounds like what you're saying is you don't wanna be doing anything else. Right? And he goes, yeah. And I go.

22:38

So let's say that I had put a hundred million dollars in your bank account. Tomorrow.

So let's say that I had put a hundred million dollars in your bank account. Tomorrow.

22:42

Would you show up to work?

Would you show up to work?

22:44

And he's like, well, no. Like, I'd be I'm like, okay. So you're doing it for the money. Let's let's okay. Now we've established that because if I All I did was I changed the money part of the equation, and now your answer is very different. He's like, well, I would buy a ranch. And I would, you know, I have four kids and we'd be outside all day. But then on the side, I might be building this type of project, I was like, okay. So that's what you

And he's like, well, no. Like, I'd be I'm like, okay. So you're doing it for the money. Let's let's okay. Now we've established that because if I All I did was I changed the money part of the equation, and now your answer is very different. He's like, well, I would buy a ranch. And I would, you know, I have four kids and we'd be outside all day. But then on the side, I might be building this type of project, I was like, okay. So that's what you

23:03

really wanna do. I'm not saying you have to go do that, but let's at least be honest.

really wanna do. I'm not saying you have to go do that, but let's at least be honest.

23:08

I didn't like the part where you were telling me this is exactly what I wanna be doing with my life. And

I didn't like the part where you were telling me this is exactly what I wanna be doing with my life. And

23:14

I can say today, there's things. There's a part of my life, like this podcast part of my life. That is exactly what I would be doing regardless of what the number is in the bank account.

I can say today, there's things. There's a part of my life, like this podcast part of my life. That is exactly what I would be doing regardless of what the number is in the bank account.

23:24

And there's a part of my life where, like, we spin up companies, but, like, we spin up companies, like, for example, we just spun a company that is, I would say, It is opportunistic. It's not the most fun sexy company in the world. I don't wanna operate it forever. I'm like, oh, this business will work. It'll be successful.

And there's a part of my life where, like, we spin up companies, but, like, we spin up companies, like, for example, we just spun a company that is, I would say, It is opportunistic. It's not the most fun sexy company in the world. I don't wanna operate it forever. I'm like, oh, this business will work. It'll be successful.

23:39

It'll have a great exit. It'll provide a great return. It'll, you know,

It'll have a great exit. It'll provide a great return. It'll, you know,

23:44

it'll put, you know, millions of dollars in people's bank accounts

it'll put, you know, millions of dollars in people's bank accounts

23:47

in the next three to five years, and that is

in the next three to five years, and that is

23:51

good. But if I was totally post economic,

good. But if I was totally post economic,

23:54

there's no way I would spend an ounce of my energy doing company, like, just the reality of the situation. So I'm, like, you know, partially

there's no way I would spend an ounce of my energy doing company, like, just the reality of the situation. So I'm, like, you know, partially

24:01

following that that philosophy, but not all the way yet. And I'm kind of honest with my at least I'm honest with myself of,

following that that philosophy, but not all the way yet. And I'm kind of honest with my at least I'm honest with myself of,

24:07

Yes and no. But the my answer to the question, if I was totally post economic,

Yes and no. But the my answer to the question, if I was totally post economic,

24:12

you know, I have more money than I'll ever be able to spend the thing that I would do is I would

you know, I have more money than I'll ever be able to spend the thing that I would do is I would

24:17

teach, and I would either just teach in the way that I do today, like, podcast, write a book,

teach, and I would either just teach in the way that I do today, like, podcast, write a book,

24:23

you know, just basically be curious, go learn something and then explain what I learned to people who don't have the twelve hours to go down the bio electricity rabbit hole

you know, just basically be curious, go learn something and then explain what I learned to people who don't have the twelve hours to go down the bio electricity rabbit hole

24:31

you know, you know, but that's what I would do. Or I would extend that if I wanted to be a little more ambitious, and I would actually create a campus and a school for people like me and be like, cool. Let me create the ideal school that I wish I had when I was younger and do that. I just don't know how much

you know, you know, but that's what I would do. Or I would extend that if I wanted to be a little more ambitious, and I would actually create a campus and a school for people like me and be like, cool. Let me create the ideal school that I wish I had when I was younger and do that. I just don't know how much

24:46

I don't know how much that would be fun, like, the kind of reward versus extra effort that that takes versus creating content online and doing the same thing, but not having any of the, like,

I don't know how much that would be fun, like, the kind of reward versus extra effort that that takes versus creating content online and doing the same thing, but not having any of the, like,

24:55

students and physical campus and stuff that I need to deal with.

students and physical campus and stuff that I need to deal with.

24:59

You know, you should talk about that sometime because I've thought of that that as well. I wish there was a better school for me And for people like us who are, you know, were creating a entrepreneurial quirky

You know, you should talk about that sometime because I've thought of that that as well. I wish there was a better school for me And for people like us who are, you know, were creating a entrepreneurial quirky

25:10

and the traditional school system does not

and the traditional school system does not

25:13

like, satisfy our needs.

like, satisfy our needs.

25:15

And what's cool about it is,

And what's cool about it is,

25:18

you know, if, let's say, we came up with an a concept for how we would do this, like, would just put my whole team behind it, and then we'll find a way to find the money. And then it will just manifest. Like, these things don't have to wait until you have a billion dollars in cash. Is the point. And but I asked you the question because

you know, if, let's say, we came up with an a concept for how we would do this, like, would just put my whole team behind it, and then we'll find a way to find the money. And then it will just manifest. Like, these things don't have to wait until you have a billion dollars in cash. Is the point. And but I asked you the question because

25:35

I I found that Bio

I I found that Bio

25:37

was on my list. Oh, I would do more bio stuff. I'd just fund it. And, like, what, but I know people who could fund it. So I could just call them and have them fund it, and I I don't need to fully fund it, and I'll manifest.

was on my list. Oh, I would do more bio stuff. I'd just fund it. And, like, what, but I know people who could fund it. So I could just call them and have them fund it, and I I don't need to fully fund it, and I'll manifest.

25:49

And I think I think a lot of us,

And I think I think a lot of us,

25:53

have so many of these things that we wanna create in the world and

have so many of these things that we wanna create in the world and

25:56

it's dangerous to eat because

it's dangerous to eat because

25:59

life priorities change. And I think that I see this with many of my friends who go on to get married, have kids,

life priorities change. And I think that I see this with many of my friends who go on to get married, have kids,

26:05

You get comfortable. They're building their ridiculous house. And then

You get comfortable. They're building their ridiculous house. And then

26:09

life goes by, and they never

life goes by, and they never

26:11

go through this lesson. It always stays a dream or an aspiration. And I just couldn't allow that to happen to myself, and I'm so glad that you're, you know, doing most of the things on your list.

go through this lesson. It always stays a dream or an aspiration. And I just couldn't allow that to happen to myself, and I'm so glad that you're, you know, doing most of the things on your list.

26:22

That's a great phrase. It's dangerous to wait.

That's a great phrase. It's dangerous to wait.

26:25

Because I think most people feel like it it'd be risky to go do it. And I think they vastly underestimate the risk of

Because I think most people feel like it it'd be risky to go do it. And I think they vastly underestimate the risk of

26:33

allowing yourself to just wait on the things you really wanna do in life. Cause actually, what happens is you accrue this, like,

allowing yourself to just wait on the things you really wanna do in life. Cause actually, what happens is you accrue this, like,

26:41

It's not like by waiting you get closer to the goal. By waiting, you actually get further away from the goal because you add all this space that gets filled up with other activities, other responsibilities,

It's not like by waiting you get closer to the goal. By waiting, you actually get further away from the goal because you add all this space that gets filled up with other activities, other responsibilities,

26:52

thoughts, you know, you train yourself to not take action on the shit you actually want and to, like, go down this, like, long winding path. I remember

thoughts, you know, you train yourself to not take action on the shit you actually want and to, like, go down this, like, long winding path. I remember

27:00

when I was, back to

when I was, back to

27:02

when I was working at Twitch, there's a guy, Dan, who's now CEO at the time he came in as, like, I don't know, chief proctor officer or something. He was he became my boss. So we go into this, like, one on one. And,

when I was working at Twitch, there's a guy, Dan, who's now CEO at the time he came in as, like, I don't know, chief proctor officer or something. He was he became my boss. So we go into this, like, one on one. And,

27:12

He's like, so, like, what are your, like, career, you know, what's your, like, goals for yourself here, you know, at the company? And I was like,

He's like, so, like, what are your, like, career, you know, what's your, like, goals for yourself here, you know, at the company? And I was like,

27:20

Well, I have two options here. I mean, they're gonna lie to this guy and say, oh, I can't wait to get promoted from

Well, I have two options here. I mean, they're gonna lie to this guy and say, oh, I can't wait to get promoted from

27:25

l seven to l eight to l ten. Like, you know, like, this, like, the ladder. Literally, it's a ladder that you that's your goal. Last clive angles. Uh-uh.

l seven to l eight to l ten. Like, you know, like, this, like, the ladder. Literally, it's a ladder that you that's your goal. Last clive angles. Uh-uh.

27:33

I was like, I'm either gonna lie about this to him because

I was like, I'm either gonna lie about this to him because

27:36

He's, you know, he's my manager. I guess that's what I'm supposed to say, or I'll tell the truth. And so I told him the truth. And I was like,

He's, you know, he's my manager. I guess that's what I'm supposed to say, or I'll tell the truth. And so I told him the truth. And I was like,

27:42

yeah, I can't wait to go build another thing or just go on my own. And, like, I don't see myself being here. And, long term. And he was, like, okay. Well, that

yeah, I can't wait to go build another thing or just go on my own. And, like, I don't see myself being here. And, long term. And he was, like, okay. Well, that

27:53

But he didn't he didn't get I thought, like, that's gonna put him in an awkward position, but he was, like, you know, he's the experienced guy. He totally, you know, rolled with it. He's like, okay. Great. Now that I know that, and I was like, you know, I don't want you to totally write me off because I said that. Like, I do think I'll be here to earn out this part of the deal. I think I can do good work while I'm here. Like, you know, I think you'll you you'll get value from somebody with my talents being here. So I hope you don't just, like, you know, say, oh, this guy's not here for the long haul, like, write me off, but that's the truth. And he was, like,

But he didn't he didn't get I thought, like, that's gonna put him in an awkward position, but he was, like, you know, he's the experienced guy. He totally, you know, rolled with it. He's like, okay. Great. Now that I know that, and I was like, you know, I don't want you to totally write me off because I said that. Like, I do think I'll be here to earn out this part of the deal. I think I can do good work while I'm here. Like, you know, I think you'll you you'll get value from somebody with my talents being here. So I hope you don't just, like, you know, say, oh, this guy's not here for the long haul, like, write me off, but that's the truth. And he was, like,

28:18

Done. I appreciate that. Now let's talk about the thing you really wanna do. What is it that you really wanna do? And I was like, oh, I wanna do this as this. But, you know, before I do that, I need to kinda, like, You know, I'm trying to get, you know, save up, you know, enough capital because I'm gonna that's gonna require a lot of capital, and I'm gonna learn some things. I'm gonna build my network and

Done. I appreciate that. Now let's talk about the thing you really wanna do. What is it that you really wanna do? And I was like, oh, I wanna do this as this. But, you know, before I do that, I need to kinda, like, You know, I'm trying to get, you know, save up, you know, enough capital because I'm gonna that's gonna require a lot of capital, and I'm gonna learn some things. I'm gonna build my network and

28:36

And he's like, yeah. I'm not really a fan of the, like,

And he's like, yeah. I'm not really a fan of the, like,

28:39

I wanna do x, so I'm gonna go do a, b, and c before I do x. He's like, you're better off usually just going ahead and trying to do x.

I wanna do x, so I'm gonna go do a, b, and c before I do x. He's like, you're better off usually just going ahead and trying to do x.

28:48

And I was like,

And I was like,

28:50

alright. You're right. That's true. I don't need, You don't even need to say anymore. You're right. I was bullshitting myself a little bit. Thank you for saying that. That's actually a really valuable piece of wisdom.

alright. You're right. That's true. I don't need, You don't even need to say anymore. You're right. I was bullshitting myself a little bit. Thank you for saying that. That's actually a really valuable piece of wisdom.

28:58

And

And

28:59

It reminded me of, there's this Tony Robbins Ted Talk. Have you ever seen the the one time Tony Robbins went to Ted? Yeah.

It reminded me of, there's this Tony Robbins Ted Talk. Have you ever seen the the one time Tony Robbins went to Ted? Yeah.

29:06

He's, like, on stage. And he's, like,

He's, like, on stage. And he's, like,

29:09

what stops you know, I've been I spent my whole life basically studying, like, what stops people from having what they want in life? And he's, like, You know, what do you think it is? What holds you back? And people are like, oh, like, you know, from whatever it is you want, you want a better relationship, you want a better career, you want more money, you want better health, whatever whatever it is. And people are like, oh, I don't I don't have the time.

what stops you know, I've been I spent my whole life basically studying, like, what stops people from having what they want in life? And he's, like, You know, what do you think it is? What holds you back? And people are like, oh, like, you know, from whatever it is you want, you want a better relationship, you want a better career, you want more money, you want better health, whatever whatever it is. And people are like, oh, I don't I don't have the time.

29:27

And other people are like, I don't have the the knowledge, the skills. I don't and the people at the crowd are saying it, and Al Gore is there, And, this was, like, right after Al Gore had lost

And other people are like, I don't have the the knowledge, the skills. I don't and the people at the crowd are saying it, and Al Gore is there, And, this was, like, right after Al Gore had lost

29:37

the presidential race to Bush. I think there was, like, a runoff. Like, they had to recount the votes in Florida or something. And, like, they it went to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court ruled that whatever pushed one. And so

the presidential race to Bush. I think there was, like, a runoff. Like, they had to recount the votes in Florida or something. And, like, they it went to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court ruled that whatever pushed one. And so

29:49

he hears this voice that says I didn't have enough Supreme Court justices. And he's like, what the hell? What do you mean? Like, who's, oh, Al Gore's here?

he hears this voice that says I didn't have enough Supreme Court justices. And he's like, what the hell? What do you mean? Like, who's, oh, Al Gore's here?

29:56

And Tony Robbins gives this, like, one minute thing that, like, actually kinda, like, bitch slapped all their answers. He's like, you know, everything you guys just said is a resource. You lacked money, time, capital, supreme court justices. That's a a thing you lack. Supreme for justices. Yeah. That's

And Tony Robbins gives this, like, one minute thing that, like, actually kinda, like, bitch slapped all their answers. He's like, you know, everything you guys just said is a resource. You lacked money, time, capital, supreme court justices. That's a a thing you lack. Supreme for justices. Yeah. That's

30:12

a hilarious example.

a hilarious example.

30:14

He's like the only thing you actually need is resourcefulness. He's like, that is the master skill, the ability to go get the resources you need when you need them for the thing you're trying to manifest. And he's like, if is it not true that if you are motivated enough

He's like the only thing you actually need is resourcefulness. He's like, that is the master skill, the ability to go get the resources you need when you need them for the thing you're trying to manifest. And he's like, if is it not true that if you are motivated enough

30:28

charismatic enough, playful enough convincing enough,

charismatic enough, playful enough convincing enough,

30:31

you know, like, determined enough and and and charming enough, can you not get everything that you want? Like, is it, like, is it really anything that is outside of you? If you really

you know, like, determined enough and and and charming enough, can you not get everything that you want? Like, is it, like, is it really anything that is outside of you? If you really

30:42

put your all into acquiring that resource. Could you not have gotten the time, the money that that it works, all of those things? Like, Al Gore, if you were not more passionate when you were on that stage in that debate. Would it ever ever even come down to that Supreme Court justices? No. Right? Like, you would have just won in a landslide.

put your all into acquiring that resource. Could you not have gotten the time, the money that that it works, all of those things? Like, Al Gore, if you were not more passionate when you were on that stage in that debate. Would it ever ever even come down to that Supreme Court justices? No. Right? Like, you would have just won in a landslide.

30:59

If you had acquired the things that you actually needed to get there. And that's kind of what you're saying of your little manifestation studio type of concept.

If you had acquired the things that you actually needed to get there. And that's kind of what you're saying of your little manifestation studio type of concept.

31:07

I love that because it's, like, you are completely

I love that because it's, like, you are completely

31:10

striking out from the thought process of an entrepreneur that, like,

striking out from the thought process of an entrepreneur that, like,

31:14

do I have what it takes either personally or financially or

do I have what it takes either personally or financially or

31:19

you know, knowledge and skill wise, you're like, well, if I wanna start a biocomp company, I'll go recruit the best bio people.

you know, knowledge and skill wise, you're like, well, if I wanna start a biocomp company, I'll go recruit the best bio people.

31:25

And then I'll go raise the funding. Exactly. Would that be that, right? You say, like, you don't have enough time or money. Those are always like excuses, but create the time by hiring other people to do the work who are better experts at whatever that thing is, and you manufacture the money by raising the money.

And then I'll go raise the funding. Exactly. Would that be that, right? You say, like, you don't have enough time or money. Those are always like excuses, but create the time by hiring other people to do the work who are better experts at whatever that thing is, and you manufacture the money by raising the money.

31:42

And in my case, I've got a multi person investor relation team, they have connections to, tons of billionaires and family offices. And we're trying to, like, place these deals with our family office connections.

And in my case, I've got a multi person investor relation team, they have connections to, tons of billionaires and family offices. And we're trying to, like, place these deals with our family office connections.

31:53

And that's gonna be, you know, within the next year, that's gonna be a four person team. And the capability I have, So instead of creating a hold show, let's create manifestation crows.

And that's gonna be, you know, within the next year, that's gonna be a four person team. And the capability I have, So instead of creating a hold show, let's create manifestation crows.

32:05

That's what I'm talking about. Because these are not always gonna be. Right? I I mean, I you coined it. It's the manifestation code. And,

That's what I'm talking about. Because these are not always gonna be. Right? I I mean, I you coined it. It's the manifestation code. And,

32:13

because

because

32:13

now if it could be a profitable endeavor, great. Sometimes it won't be. And but the point is all of us have that thing we wanna clean our our life. And we wanna have

now if it could be a profitable endeavor, great. Sometimes it won't be. And but the point is all of us have that thing we wanna clean our our life. And we wanna have

32:23

the ability to do that in a way that's painless,

the ability to do that in a way that's painless,

32:26

fun

fun

32:27

and exciting for

and exciting for

32:29

us as the Ivy eater.

us as the Ivy eater.

32:31

What about, like,

What about, like,

32:33

you know, crazy science dreams you said you have ideas or you're talking to scientists all the time. What are some things that are, you know, in the future that you're excited about that It's not just a pipe dream. Like, there might actually be a pathway to do it. Like, you know, I don't know if the the Grove test tube baby in a VAT type of thing. Like, I don't know if that's, like, just a dream, or there's actually people working on the that that might be scientifically pro possible or practical. Can you tell me about some parts of the future that I should be excited about or my kids might get to experience?

you know, crazy science dreams you said you have ideas or you're talking to scientists all the time. What are some things that are, you know, in the future that you're excited about that It's not just a pipe dream. Like, there might actually be a pathway to do it. Like, you know, I don't know if the the Grove test tube baby in a VAT type of thing. Like, I don't know if that's, like, just a dream, or there's actually people working on the that that might be scientifically pro possible or practical. Can you tell me about some parts of the future that I should be excited about or my kids might get to experience?

33:02

I actually think that is very viable, the test tube babies.

I actually think that is very viable, the test tube babies.

33:07

I know of

I know of

33:09

I've talked to several scientists who are doing the portion to, like,

I've talked to several scientists who are doing the portion to, like,

33:14

for example, let's say you wanted to be the mother of a child. Not the father. And we could take your genetic material and create an egg out of that. I think that we're gonna see that within the next five years.

for example, let's say you wanted to be the mother of a child. Not the father. And we could take your genetic material and create an egg out of that. I think that we're gonna see that within the next five years.

33:26

And

And

33:27

And the converting, you know, having a artificial embryo generated avatars style, that's a little harder to do. I I've met scientists who've been able to

And the converting, you know, having a artificial embryo generated avatars style, that's a little harder to do. I I've met scientists who've been able to

33:38

get to maybe six weeks before the whole thing falls apart.

get to maybe six weeks before the whole thing falls apart.

33:41

And that will get better and better over time.

And that will get better and better over time.

33:45

But the implications there are huge. Like, for women, imagine not having to

But the implications there are huge. Like, for women, imagine not having to

33:50

deal with this and,

deal with this and,

33:52

not having to do egg extraction,

not having to do egg extraction,

33:56

if you're, you know, if you're having trouble conceiving.

if you're, you know, if you're having trouble conceiving.

33:59

And then

And then

34:00

What's also realistic, I think, is extending our lives by

What's also realistic, I think, is extending our lives by

34:05

thirty percent. I think we need to be prepared to live till we're a hundred twenty. Or longer.

thirty percent. I think we need to be prepared to live till we're a hundred twenty. Or longer.

34:11

And,

And,

34:12

right now, the upper limit in her head is, oh, I'll probably die when I'm ninety.

right now, the upper limit in her head is, oh, I'll probably die when I'm ninety.

34:16

We're not thinking about the exponential rate of change here. And I am talking to a live longevity scientist. I'm seeing the data.

We're not thinking about the exponential rate of change here. And I am talking to a live longevity scientist. I'm seeing the data.

34:23

It's compelling. I think we're gonna live longer. We need a plan for that future.

It's compelling. I think we're gonna live longer. We need a plan for that future.

34:27

What's the short version of how we get that extra thirty percent? Is it drugs? Is it,

What's the short version of how we get that extra thirty percent? Is it drugs? Is it,

34:33

diet lifestyle changes? Is it reversing aging? Is it, you know,

diet lifestyle changes? Is it reversing aging? Is it, you know,

34:38

getting blood from young, you know, baby seals. What what are we gonna do to to make that happen?

getting blood from young, you know, baby seals. What what are we gonna do to to make that happen?

34:44

It's probably gonna be a combination of multiple factors.

It's probably gonna be a combination of multiple factors.

34:48

And you all these projects fall under what you call bold science. Could you

And you all these projects fall under what you call bold science. Could you

34:52

define

define

34:53

bold science? What does that mean?

bold science? What does that mean?

34:55

Yeah. There's just so many, companies working on very incremental,

Yeah. There's just so many, companies working on very incremental,

35:01

you know,

you know,

35:02

companies where it might and your lifespan by three months or six months. That's not a great outcome.

companies where it might and your lifespan by three months or six months. That's not a great outcome.

35:08

Like, you're gonna be going to the hospital and taking chemo drugs for another six months before you're dead. What do you do? That's, like, I'd rather go to go to hospice than prolong my suffering.

Like, you're gonna be going to the hospital and taking chemo drugs for another six months before you're dead. What do you do? That's, like, I'd rather go to go to hospice than prolong my suffering.

35:18

But if he could said patching

But if he could said patching

35:21

the problem,

the problem,

35:23

like putting a band aid on a gunshot wound is the analogy.

like putting a band aid on a gunshot wound is the analogy.

35:27

What if you could get to the root cause

What if you could get to the root cause

35:30

and reverse cancer, for example.

and reverse cancer, for example.

35:32

So right now, everything we do within cancer is that,

So right now, everything we do within cancer is that,

35:36

trying to kill the cancer cells through chemo, radiation,

trying to kill the cancer cells through chemo, radiation,

35:39

surgery, car t therapies are super hot and trendy.

surgery, car t therapies are super hot and trendy.

35:43

But that just basically involves using your immune system

But that just basically involves using your immune system

35:47

to target and kill your own cancer cells.

to target and kill your own cancer cells.

35:50

But what if killing cancer is the wrong approach? And actually cancer happens because your cells are trying to protect themselves in some way. And if you could train them and coach yourself, so killing them, let's readability them them to integrate back in with their surroundings,

But what if killing cancer is the wrong approach? And actually cancer happens because your cells are trying to protect themselves in some way. And if you could train them and coach yourself, so killing them, let's readability them them to integrate back in with their surroundings,

36:05

then he could fix cancer.

then he could fix cancer.

36:07

And so we're working on a company around that.

And so we're working on a company around that.

36:11

That's what I mean by bold science.

That's what I mean by bold science.

36:13

That's

That's

36:15

That's,

That's,

36:15

that's great. So it's basically

that's great. So it's basically

36:17

non non incremental,

non non incremental,

36:19

a big leap in function or leap in quality of life. So, like, you know, a step complete step change,

a big leap in function or leap in quality of life. So, like, you know, a step complete step change,

36:26

And usually, that's gonna come from taking a different approach than, like, you know, or taking a different point of view on the problem looking at it through a different lens. And,

And usually, that's gonna come from taking a different approach than, like, you know, or taking a different point of view on the problem looking at it through a different lens. And,

36:35

you've you what you do is you partner with scientists to make that happen. One of the things you said that I liked, when we were talking before was You're like, I get on the plane. I get on the plane every time. Yeah. And, I don't know exactly what you mean by that, but talk about that because I think that's just a entrepreneurial

you've you what you do is you partner with scientists to make that happen. One of the things you said that I liked, when we were talking before was You're like, I get on the plane. I get on the plane every time. Yeah. And, I don't know exactly what you mean by that, but talk about that because I think that's just a entrepreneurial

36:52

as part of the manifestation studio is you gotta just get on the plane sometimes. What what do you mean by that? I have a real example. I have there's this successful entrepreneur who I'm sure you've heard of.

as part of the manifestation studio is you gotta just get on the plane sometimes. What what do you mean by that? I have a real example. I have there's this successful entrepreneur who I'm sure you've heard of.

37:03

Maybe you even interviewed him. He

Maybe you even interviewed him. He

37:05

lives in Vegas. I live in LA, and I just said, hey,

lives in Vegas. I live in LA, and I just said, hey,

37:09

Tell me a time and place on Sunday and Monday, and I will fly to Vegas and I will meet you. I'll literally take my plane and fly there just for the meeting and then fly home afterwards.

Tell me a time and place on Sunday and Monday, and I will fly to Vegas and I will meet you. I'll literally take my plane and fly there just for the meeting and then fly home afterwards.

37:19

And then, to you, say the same thing, I have,

And then, to you, say the same thing, I have,

37:22

Patrick Carlson from Stripe asked me to hang out with him and have dinner. And it's like, alright. Cool. So I'll just get on my jet and go see him and then fly back and be back in my bed after dinner. You know? And does does that only work if you have a jet?

Patrick Carlson from Stripe asked me to hang out with him and have dinner. And it's like, alright. Cool. So I'll just get on my jet and go see him and then fly back and be back in my bed after dinner. You know? And does does that only work if you have a jet?

37:35

No. Buy a Southwest ticket. I mean, just get creative about it. I do it so often though that it is really nice to have my own airplane, but, like, I think that,

No. Buy a Southwest ticket. I mean, just get creative about it. I do it so often though that it is really nice to have my own airplane, but, like, I think that,

37:46

it doesn't matter. Like, if I have to fly to London and see someone, I will

it doesn't matter. Like, if I have to fly to London and see someone, I will

37:50

I'm glad that you, you know, book a ticket and do that. And,

I'm glad that you, you know, book a ticket and do that. And,

37:54

I think that it really, you know, I had a billionaire do this for me where he literally flew in

I think that it really, you know, I had a billionaire do this for me where he literally flew in

38:00

from South America and he went straight from the airport

from South America and he went straight from the airport

38:04

to dinner with me,

to dinner with me,

38:06

and

and

38:08

that was the first time I had a one on one meeting with this person.

that was the first time I had a one on one meeting with this person.

38:12

And it really made an impression on me. I'm like, wow, this guy went out of his way. He was planning to go to some other city. Instead, he came to LA to meet me just for dinner.

And it really made an impression on me. I'm like, wow, this guy went out of his way. He was planning to go to some other city. Instead, he came to LA to meet me just for dinner.

38:22

And

And

38:23

and he's more important than I am.

and he's more important than I am.

38:26

By by a million miles, he's so much more important than I am.

By by a million miles, he's so much more important than I am.

38:31

I believe you wanna be friends with this person.

I believe you wanna be friends with this person.

38:34

And,

And,

38:35

you know, I have another

you know, I have another

38:36

billionaire who I hit it off with. We hung out for drinks.

billionaire who I hit it off with. We hung out for drinks.

38:40

We were part of a bigger group. And we had two hours where he just talked about the meaning of life, all of his regrets, all the things he'd do different, He's like this seventy something year old dude. And he's like, yeah, everyone wants me for my money, but no one just asks me these questions that you're asking me about life advice.

We were part of a bigger group. And we had two hours where he just talked about the meaning of life, all of his regrets, all the things he'd do different, He's like this seventy something year old dude. And he's like, yeah, everyone wants me for my money, but no one just asks me these questions that you're asking me about life advice.

38:55

And I'm like, you know what? We should continue this.

And I'm like, you know what? We should continue this.

38:58

Where do you live all this? He says I live in the Bahamas. I'm like, great. I'm visiting you. And we booked the time. I'm seeing him for dinner in three weeks, and I wanna literally go there just to see him.

Where do you live all this? He says I live in the Bahamas. I'm like, great. I'm visiting you. And we booked the time. I'm seeing him for dinner in three weeks, and I wanna literally go there just to see him.

39:09

And I'm so happy about it. And I wanna get four hours of downloading this man's wisdom.

And I'm so happy about it. And I wanna get four hours of downloading this man's wisdom.

39:16

And,

And,

39:17

it's it's super cool. I think it's massively underrated.

it's it's super cool. I think it's massively underrated.

39:21

Well,

Well,

39:22

my uncle calls it meeting belly to belly. He's like, you gotta beat belly to belly in business. And he's in the real estate game. It's a totally different game, but I loved it. I was like, not face to face. We're going belly to belly. And I just think that that was, like, created such a good visual in my head. If you were gonna score it, let's say, if I gave you one point,

my uncle calls it meeting belly to belly. He's like, you gotta beat belly to belly in business. And he's in the real estate game. It's a totally different game, but I loved it. I was like, not face to face. We're going belly to belly. And I just think that that was, like, created such a good visual in my head. If you were gonna score it, let's say, if I gave you one point,

39:38

of, like,

of, like,

39:39

trust productivity relationship building for a Zoom call versus,

trust productivity relationship building for a Zoom call versus,

39:45

meeting belly to belly

meeting belly to belly

39:47

If one is if a one is the is the call,

If one is if a one is the is the call,

39:50

how much is the in person?

how much is the in person?

39:54

Well,

Well,

39:56

I mean, I would think that the other way. I mean, it's it's it's just they're totally opposite ends of the spectrum. Like, a belly belly, like, fly out to see them is the ultimate ten out of ten weight engaged with someone. There is no better way

I mean, I would think that the other way. I mean, it's it's it's just they're totally opposite ends of the spectrum. Like, a belly belly, like, fly out to see them is the ultimate ten out of ten weight engaged with someone. There is no better way

40:07

than to say I'm flying five hours out of my way to see you and to spend you know, dinner with you.

than to say I'm flying five hours out of my way to see you and to spend you know, dinner with you.

40:13

And a call is definitely a one, and assume call is maybe a two. It's like, that's how wide the delta is. Right. And,

And a call is definitely a one, and assume call is maybe a two. It's like, that's how wide the delta is. Right. And,

40:20

oh, the other thing I wanna mention

oh, the other thing I wanna mention

40:22

is that you didn't I think a lot of people think, oh, but just, like, you're you've already, like, muted a bit. So, of course, people wanna hang out with you. Well, I was getting meetings like this when I was sixteen

is that you didn't I think a lot of people think, oh, but just, like, you're you've already, like, muted a bit. So, of course, people wanna hang out with you. Well, I was getting meetings like this when I was sixteen

40:34

and I knew nothing. I cold emailed

and I knew nothing. I cold emailed

40:37

the reddit guys. I cold emailed Justin and Emmett

the reddit guys. I cold emailed Justin and Emmett

40:40

from Twitch.

from Twitch.

40:42

I guess it was Justin dot tv back then. And I said, hey. On this idiot sixteen year old, I think you just put it on the table. Like, I'm an idiot.

I guess it was Justin dot tv back then. And I said, hey. On this idiot sixteen year old, I think you just put it on the table. Like, I'm an idiot.

40:50

And I think you are brilliant,

And I think you are brilliant,

40:52

and I'm willing to fly to you, and I just wanna be a,

and I'm willing to fly to you, and I just wanna be a,

40:57

a fly on your folder and see you do your work and just, like,

a fly on your folder and see you do your work and just, like,

41:01

you know, just follow you around for a day.

you know, just follow you around for a day.

41:05

And so if you pull up the Justin dot e b u r archives, you will see me driving him around San Francisco

And so if you pull up the Justin dot e b u r archives, you will see me driving him around San Francisco

41:11

and going to a poker game with him and, like, all this random stuff just because

and going to a poker game with him and, like, all this random stuff just because

41:16

I was wanting to do that. Mark Bennyoff replied to me also.

I was wanting to do that. Mark Bennyoff replied to me also.

41:20

Again, I'm an idiot sixteen year old. That's amazing. This is when you're a teenager. You also told me because I asked you because,

Again, I'm an idiot sixteen year old. That's amazing. This is when you're a teenager. You also told me because I asked you because,

41:27

I think one of the valuable things in life is to study, like, to become a good evaluator of people Like, if let's say you're an NBA general manager, you need to be able to spot talent.

I think one of the valuable things in life is to study, like, to become a good evaluator of people Like, if let's say you're an NBA general manager, you need to be able to spot talent.

41:36

I think any business person or investor needs to be able to spot talent and ideally spot the difference between good and great, great, and the best in the world.

I think any business person or investor needs to be able to spot talent and ideally spot the difference between good and great, great, and the best in the world.

41:44

And,

And,

41:45

when I met you, I really felt like this might be somebody who's one of those, like, elite best in the world at what they do, and they're gonna just do special things that are beyond even what

when I met you, I really felt like this might be somebody who's one of those, like, elite best in the world at what they do, and they're gonna just do special things that are beyond even what

41:55

really great smart know, intelligent people are gonna do just because they seem to be operating differently, but I need to understand them a little more. So I asked you a question when I was getting to know you. And I was I was like, if I met you when you were younger,

really great smart know, intelligent people are gonna do just because they seem to be operating differently, but I need to understand them a little more. So I asked you a question when I was getting to know you. And I was I was like, if I met you when you were younger,

42:06

like,

like,

42:07

thirteen years old,

thirteen years old,

42:08

what would I have seen and would I would there be have been any signals for,

what would I have seen and would I would there be have been any signals for,

42:12

for this? And I I said, you know, and I will say,

for this? And I I said, you know, and I will say,

42:16

on my side, I was a totally unimpressive thirteen year old, you know,

on my side, I was a totally unimpressive thirteen year old, you know,

42:21

you know, there was no signals that I was gonna do anything out of the ordinary,

you know, there was no signals that I was gonna do anything out of the ordinary,

42:25

you know, forget, like, being great at something. Just like, out of the ordinary, beyond average.

you know, forget, like, being great at something. Just like, out of the ordinary, beyond average.

42:29

And,

And,

42:30

so I wasn't that way, but I've met a lot of people who were, you know, they're, like, teenagers, they were flipping things, like, you know, on eBay or they were building a product of some kind or, you know, whatever. You have an amazing kind of backstory.

so I wasn't that way, but I've met a lot of people who were, you know, they're, like, teenagers, they were flipping things, like, you know, on eBay or they were building a product of some kind or, you know, whatever. You have an amazing kind of backstory.

42:42

Can you tell it? What were you doing? What was, like, your first

Can you tell it? What were you doing? What was, like, your first

42:45

you know, interesting little business you were doing when you were you were a teenager.

you know, interesting little business you were doing when you were you were a teenager.

42:49

When I was thirteen, I

When I was thirteen, I

42:53

started a dedicated server and colocation business

started a dedicated server and colocation business

42:57

because that's what I thought you did in high school. That's just I don't know why, but I thought it was kinda normal.

because that's what I thought you did in high school. That's just I don't know why, but I thought it was kinda normal.

43:02

And I grew that set out a few hundred grand in revenue because you would know somebody else doing it. Why would you think that's normal? I don't know. I always thought, like, the internet forums, you know, there are lots people who do this. So I thought, okay, this is like a commodity business, but I could probably figure out how to do it and make a few bucks and offset my

And I grew that set out a few hundred grand in revenue because you would know somebody else doing it. Why would you think that's normal? I don't know. I always thought, like, the internet forums, you know, there are lots people who do this. So I thought, okay, this is like a commodity business, but I could probably figure out how to do it and make a few bucks and offset my

43:19

gaming server expenses. That was the goal. I just wanted to make, like, ten thousand dollars a year to offset my own costs

gaming server expenses. That was the goal. I just wanted to make, like, ten thousand dollars a year to offset my own costs

43:25

and buy some clothes and not have to, like, go work at the shopping mall. Or, like, rake leans or shuttle staff. So you're, like, I'm playing video games. I wanna scratch my own itch, be able to play my own video games and, and, like, you know, pay pay off that, buy some clothes, Were you cool in school? Were you like a No. Smart popular kid? Or what who who are you? Total geek loser. I'm so lame.

and buy some clothes and not have to, like, go work at the shopping mall. Or, like, rake leans or shuttle staff. So you're, like, I'm playing video games. I wanna scratch my own itch, be able to play my own video games and, and, like, you know, pay pay off that, buy some clothes, Were you cool in school? Were you like a No. Smart popular kid? Or what who who are you? Total geek loser. I'm so lame.

43:46

I

I

43:47

so I had no friends. I went to the computer club

so I had no friends. I went to the computer club

43:50

at my face school,

at my face school,

43:52

which is all the nurse also had no other friends, so you have to be friends with each other. They were making fun of me, and they were bullying me. I was literally on the bottom of the bottom put them for.

which is all the nurse also had no other friends, so you have to be friends with each other. They were making fun of me, and they were bullying me. I was literally on the bottom of the bottom put them for.

44:06

Like, that's how I knew it was really bad. I'm like, okay. I had to get out of here soon as possible. So I ended up dropping out of high school,

Like, that's how I knew it was really bad. I'm like, okay. I had to get out of here soon as possible. So I ended up dropping out of high school,

44:13

halfway through my sophomore year,

halfway through my sophomore year,

44:15

but I got into this really cool college program called Simon Rock. College,

but I got into this really cool college program called Simon Rock. College,

44:20

you know, Simon's rock and going to college really, it really seemed to me because I was born in high school.

you know, Simon's rock and going to college really, it really seemed to me because I was born in high school.

44:26

I wasn't doing well. I was I was getting terrible

I wasn't doing well. I was I was getting terrible

44:30

grades because I was uninterested and because I had no friends, and I felt like I couldn't relate to anyone. All other girls

grades because I was uninterested and because I had no friends, and I felt like I couldn't relate to anyone. All other girls

44:37

and guys, just, like, were interested in things that I had no interest in. So when you said, hey, I would love to create this school for people like us,

and guys, just, like, were interested in things that I had no interest in. So when you said, hey, I would love to create this school for people like us,

44:45

I just thought, holy cow.

I just thought, holy cow.

44:47

I wanna create that school too. We can make this happen. Let's do it. Let's brainstorm it. Let's set aside some time another day. Let's just go meet up for dinner. I'll come wherever you want, any day you want. I will I will fly to you,

I wanna create that school too. We can make this happen. Let's do it. Let's brainstorm it. Let's set aside some time another day. Let's just go meet up for dinner. I'll come wherever you want, any day you want. I will I will fly to you,

45:00

and we will put together

and we will put together

45:02

You know, like, game plan for what this would look like and how we would manifest this without having to wait till we're, you know, sitting out a billion in cash.

You know, like, game plan for what this would look like and how we would manifest this without having to wait till we're, you know, sitting out a billion in cash.

45:10

Yeah. Okay. Done. I love it. Belly to Belly booked.

Yeah. Okay. Done. I love it. Belly to Belly booked.

45:14

You did tell me about the server business, did you make the ten grand off that? I was making, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off of it.

You did tell me about the server business, did you make the ten grand off that? I was making, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off of it.

45:22

I was thinking, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off of it. I remember in biology class, it's EDM and I can't pay attention, and I'm, like, doing,

I was thinking, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off of it. I remember in biology class, it's EDM and I can't pay attention, and I'm, like, doing,

45:30

like, the biology teacher clearly doesn't like me because she knows that I'm high potential, but I wasn't doing well. Because I was up till three in the morning answering customer service and sales emails.

like, the biology teacher clearly doesn't like me because she knows that I'm high potential, but I wasn't doing well. Because I was up till three in the morning answering customer service and sales emails.

45:41

So, of course, I only had, like, five hours of sleep.

So, of course, I only had, like, five hours of sleep.

45:44

And when you're thirteen and you're operating on five hours of sleep, you're not gonna do well.

And when you're thirteen and you're operating on five hours of sleep, you're not gonna do well.

45:48

And what to make myself feel better, I thought, well, at least on a few more money than my biology teacher,

And what to make myself feel better, I thought, well, at least on a few more money than my biology teacher,

45:55

Well, I'm honestly.

Well, I'm honestly.

45:57

The moral victory.

The moral victory.

45:59

So when you were meeting these people because you were like, I'm I'm a dumb sixteen year old college kid. You're in college because you're sixteen because you dropped out of high school. Yeah. And, like, just went to college.

So when you were meeting these people because you were like, I'm I'm a dumb sixteen year old college kid. You're in college because you're sixteen because you dropped out of high school. Yeah. And, like, just went to college.

46:08

You met just a Con. You met Mark Benioff. You met, you know, these different YC founders.

You met just a Con. You met Mark Benioff. You met, you know, these different YC founders.

46:13

Did you do you learn did you learn anything today? They stick with you. Was there a story that, like, you remember

Did you do you learn did you learn anything today? They stick with you. Was there a story that, like, you remember

46:19

like, what'd you get out of those meetings?

like, what'd you get out of those meetings?

46:21

Yeah. What I got out of it was that holy cow. There are other people like me who are a little crazy

Yeah. What I got out of it was that holy cow. There are other people like me who are a little crazy

46:27

who

who

46:28

are willing to approach life and entrepreneurship in an unconventional way

are willing to approach life and entrepreneurship in an unconventional way

46:33

and who are willing to do,

and who are willing to do,

46:36

you know, the hard thing. So when I saw Justin and when I saw Steve Hoffman, read it,

you know, the hard thing. So when I saw Justin and when I saw Steve Hoffman, read it,

46:42

I

I

46:43

I realized, wow, like, I don't need to wait till I'm o older to start doing this today.

I realized, wow, like, I don't need to wait till I'm o older to start doing this today.

46:48

And I also don't need to have money. I don't have to have, like, a job to demonstrate success first. So it's more of the mindset. I would say it's always mindset in psychology, more than tactics.

And I also don't need to have money. I don't have to have, like, a job to demonstrate success first. So it's more of the mindset. I would say it's always mindset in psychology, more than tactics.

47:00

When you're meeting these people that

When you're meeting these people that

47:02

I focus on.

I focus on.

47:04

Yeah. Yeah. And you you also told me you had met these other people, like, when I was like, oh, what's,

Yeah. Yeah. And you you also told me you had met these other people, like, when I was like, oh, what's,

47:11

I forgot. I was, like, I think I was asking you, like, what you do with your money, and you were, like, yeah, I, you said one interesting thing. You were, like, you're, like, you know, taxes.

I forgot. I was, like, I think I was asking you, like, what you do with your money, and you were, like, yeah, I, you said one interesting thing. You were, like, you're, like, you know, taxes.

47:20

People or we I think I was asking you something about taxes. I do. We're like, people don't spend enough time on taxes. So can you tell me,

People or we I think I was asking you something about taxes. I do. We're like, people don't spend enough time on taxes. So can you tell me,

47:25

we'll put this in the bucket of

we'll put this in the bucket of

47:28

billionaire secrets

billionaire secrets

47:30

you you said you've met a bunch of successful super rich people,

you you said you've met a bunch of successful super rich people,

47:33

and the way they think is a little bit different than the way everybody else thinks. And I'm interested in that gap. What's different about the way that the most successful, the rich people that you know think? What is it that they're thinking about differently?

and the way they think is a little bit different than the way everybody else thinks. And I'm interested in that gap. What's different about the way that the most successful, the rich people that you know think? What is it that they're thinking about differently?

47:46

One of the things was taxes, but you had a few more. Can you tell me the taxes point and anything else you kinda remember on that? Yeah. Top tax optimization is a really big deal. Because if you think about it, if you're spending if if half your money is going to uncle Sam, it's really going to impact your compounding. Like, do

One of the things was taxes, but you had a few more. Can you tell me the taxes point and anything else you kinda remember on that? Yeah. Top tax optimization is a really big deal. Because if you think about it, if you're spending if if half your money is going to uncle Sam, it's really going to impact your compounding. Like, do

48:02

you know, compound interest,

you know, compound interest,

48:04

calculator, and you'll see the delta is very wide if you're starting at each, say, thirty.

calculator, and you'll see the delta is very wide if you're starting at each, say, thirty.

48:10

And these

And these

48:11

billionaires employ the best tax strategist in the world. So eventually, I said, hey, could you introduce me to your

billionaires employ the best tax strategist in the world. So eventually, I said, hey, could you introduce me to your

48:17

tax person?

tax person?

48:19

And that that person, of course, works with, like, thirty other billionaires and has saved them, you know, collectively a hundred billion dollars in taxes. And then I I've gotten enough of these tax professional intros where now I have a whole collection of them. I call,

And that that person, of course, works with, like, thirty other billionaires and has saved them, you know, collectively a hundred billion dollars in taxes. And then I I've gotten enough of these tax professional intros where now I have a whole collection of them. I call,

48:32

and I combine that advice from

and I combine that advice from

48:34

multiple

multiple

48:35

tax professionals and merge it all together.

tax professionals and merge it all together.

48:38

And I think that's the next level. Most people just pick one person. They say, oh, I've been working with betty is my tax accountant for the past ten years. Well, Betty doesn't work with billionaires. It's time for a new tax accountant.

And I think that's the next level. Most people just pick one person. They say, oh, I've been working with betty is my tax accountant for the past ten years. Well, Betty doesn't work with billionaires. It's time for a new tax accountant.

48:50

I literally had this conversation with someone over lunch last week. And

I literally had this conversation with someone over lunch last week. And

48:54

he texted me right before we got on this call saying, oh my god. Like, this is going to make me millions of dollars more over the next few years.

he texted me right before we got on this call saying, oh my god. Like, this is going to make me millions of dollars more over the next few years.

49:02

Like Well, this is so true.

Like Well, this is so true.

49:05

I feel when I, like, I have, like, a lawyer and a tax person. And if I feel like I if I talk to another tax person or a lawyer, I'm, like, kinda cheating on them. It's, like, that's so silly. That's so dumb of a way to think about it. Like, first of all, it's your job to get the best opinion possible. It is. To get the best answer,

I feel when I, like, I have, like, a lawyer and a tax person. And if I feel like I if I talk to another tax person or a lawyer, I'm, like, kinda cheating on them. It's, like, that's so silly. That's so dumb of a way to think about it. Like, first of all, it's your job to get the best opinion possible. It is. To get the best answer,

49:23

The best answer is not gonna come necessarily from the one person you know who you picked one time five years ago without vetting anybody else.

The best answer is not gonna come necessarily from the one person you know who you picked one time five years ago without vetting anybody else.

49:31

They may also not specialize in other stuff you're doing. Oh, now you're doing real estate deals, well, they don't know anything about real estate deals, or you're doing, you have an exit in M and A. They don't know anything about M and So, you know, you should be talking to people who really understand that stuff.

They may also not specialize in other stuff you're doing. Oh, now you're doing real estate deals, well, they don't know anything about real estate deals, or you're doing, you have an exit in M and A. They don't know anything about M and So, you know, you should be talking to people who really understand that stuff.

49:43

A team that multiple opinions is better than one.

A team that multiple opinions is better than one.

49:47

Specialties matter.

Specialties matter.

49:50

Also

Also

49:51

when you said that it reminded me, I was like, oh, yeah. The person who I have doing tax strategy stuff, They stopped giving me strategy after year one. Like,

when you said that it reminded me, I was like, oh, yeah. The person who I have doing tax strategy stuff, They stopped giving me strategy after year one. Like,

49:59

we, you know, like, the bulk if I if I had a pie chart of ninety percent like, strategy convos convos we had were at the very beginning. And then, like, now I'm just, like, the client that they, you know, stamp the the thing on, like, every year. Right? Like, that happens naturally.

we, you know, like, the bulk if I if I had a pie chart of ninety percent like, strategy convos convos we had were at the very beginning. And then, like, now I'm just, like, the client that they, you know, stamp the the thing on, like, every year. Right? Like, that happens naturally.

50:12

Same thing with legal legal stuff. And so you kinda need to keep dating in order to have, like, fresh ideas or advice coming in

Same thing with legal legal stuff. And so you kinda need to keep dating in order to have, like, fresh ideas or advice coming in

50:20

from that perspective. Exactly. You also said, like, there's a certain amount of time you think people should spend on or, like, you know,

from that perspective. Exactly. You also said, like, there's a certain amount of time you think people should spend on or, like, you know,

50:27

Maybe you not should, but, like,

Maybe you not should, but, like,

50:30

the math

the math

50:31

tells you you should be spending a certain amount of time on taxes and actually the what people actually do is maybe less than one percent of their time. Yeah. Exactly. Less than one percent. Way less than even point one percent,

tells you you should be spending a certain amount of time on taxes and actually the what people actually do is maybe less than one percent of their time. Yeah. Exactly. Less than one percent. Way less than even point one percent,

50:42

because if taxes impact half your income potentially,

because if taxes impact half your income potentially,

50:45

If you invest just even five or ten percent of your time this year, to finding five amazing tax strategies, get all their advice and figure out how to apply it, ten percent of your time

If you invest just even five or ten percent of your time this year, to finding five amazing tax strategies, get all their advice and figure out how to apply it, ten percent of your time

50:56

as the up upper bound here.

as the up upper bound here.

50:59

And you're making, like, way more money as a result. It pays for itself like a hundred the highest IRR investment you can make. And so way better than, like, investing in the stock market with the money you're paying these tax people. That's so true. Because your tax is always your biggest expense.

And you're making, like, way more money as a result. It pays for itself like a hundred the highest IRR investment you can make. And so way better than, like, investing in the stock market with the money you're paying these tax people. That's so true. Because your tax is always your biggest expense.

51:13

And if you're a business person, you have your, you know, your business tax, then you have your personal tax. You have, like, investment tax, capital gains tax. You have all kinds of taxes every single year. You know, the same dollar gets taxed a bunch of times.

And if you're a business person, you have your, you know, your business tax, then you have your personal tax. You have, like, investment tax, capital gains tax. You have all kinds of taxes every single year. You know, the same dollar gets taxed a bunch of times.

51:25

So you're right. Basically, it's the biggest

So you're right. Basically, it's the biggest

51:27

it's the biggest biggest expense

it's the biggest biggest expense

51:29

Even ten percent sounds absurd because I'm like, oh, that's thirty six days out of the year. It's overkill. You don't need that much time. I mean, even five days in the year to do this. Gets you all No. But you're right. On the math, like, you would be justified spending thirty six days out of the year. You would be justified spending ten percent of your time in intellectual mind share.

Even ten percent sounds absurd because I'm like, oh, that's thirty six days out of the year. It's overkill. You don't need that much time. I mean, even five days in the year to do this. Gets you all No. But you're right. On the math, like, you would be justified spending thirty six days out of the year. You would be justified spending ten percent of your time in intellectual mind share.

51:47

On on your biggest expense

On on your biggest expense

51:50

that's gonna compound

that's gonna compound

51:52

every year for the rest of your life. Like, of course, that would make sense. So that is a kind of, like, aha moment for me. Right. What about, like, coaching or, you know, some sort of, like, What is your like, basically, if the studio, the manifestation kind of like vehicle here is an extension of you and your brain and your dreams and your desires. And then, like, getting the brain

every year for the rest of your life. Like, of course, that would make sense. So that is a kind of, like, aha moment for me. Right. What about, like, coaching or, you know, some sort of, like, What is your like, basically, if the studio, the manifestation kind of like vehicle here is an extension of you and your brain and your dreams and your desires. And then, like, getting the brain

52:13

to be, like, functioning well seems important.

to be, like, functioning well seems important.

52:16

Do you do anything whether it's

Do you do anything whether it's

52:19

therapy,

therapy,

52:20

nutrition,

nutrition,

52:21

morning routine. Like, do you do anything like that to, like, make sure you're the psychology that, you know, the the little voice in your head is saying the right stuff. Yeah. For sure. I have,

morning routine. Like, do you do anything like that to, like, make sure you're the psychology that, you know, the the little voice in your head is saying the right stuff. Yeah. For sure. I have,

52:32

I have

I have

52:33

two different coaches I talk with each month

two different coaches I talk with each month

52:36

And I think of it as, like, going to the gym or taking a shower,

And I think of it as, like, going to the gym or taking a shower,

52:40

even if I think I'm happy or in a good mindset, I need to still go see them to make sure that my head is screwed on properly.

even if I think I'm happy or in a good mindset, I need to still go see them to make sure that my head is screwed on properly.

52:47

And,

And,

52:48

yeah, it cost me a ton of money, but it pays for itself right away. I also

yeah, it cost me a ton of money, but it pays for itself right away. I also

52:53

have my CEO group. I visit once a month. It's kinda like alcohol is anonymous for

have my CEO group. I visit once a month. It's kinda like alcohol is anonymous for

52:59

CEOs

CEOs

53:00

I'm in Waikia, young president's organization, but there's also entrepreneur organization

I'm in Waikia, young president's organization, but there's also entrepreneur organization

53:05

and

and

53:05

this stage list goes on and on.

this stage list goes on and on.

53:08

And

And

53:10

there yeah. You think, oh, I don't have time for it, but I actually think you don't have time not to do that.

there yeah. You think, oh, I don't have time for it, but I actually think you don't have time not to do that.

53:17

That's a good way of putting it. Also, health stuff. We don't think about that. What if he could optimize

That's a good way of putting it. Also, health stuff. We don't think about that. What if he could optimize

53:23

through better nutrition and neotropics. And through IVs,

through better nutrition and neotropics. And through IVs,

53:27

your

your

53:32

not only your longevity, but your mental acuity.

not only your longevity, but your mental acuity.

53:36

So I work with five concierge doctors to come up with my own custom plan. And I'm actually gonna put something together that I could share with all my friends so anyone I love can get on the same program,

So I work with five concierge doctors to come up with my own custom plan. And I'm actually gonna put something together that I could share with all my friends so anyone I love can get on the same program,

53:49

and it includes

and it includes

53:51

the supplements, custom compounding, my own supplements into, you know, just two pills.

the supplements, custom compounding, my own supplements into, you know, just two pills.

53:56

So it's a lot easier

So it's a lot easier

53:58

and then doing the access home IDs once a quarter, which I'm I'm a huge fan of.

and then doing the access home IDs once a quarter, which I'm I'm a huge fan of.

54:03

And I don't know what what is that? What is that word you just said? What what are you doing? Exosome IVs.

And I don't know what what is that? What is that word you just said? What what are you doing? Exosome IVs.

54:09

And, what is that? Yeah. I mean,

And, what is that? Yeah. I mean,

54:11

it's still the science on it's still a little

it's still the science on it's still a little

54:15

you know, up in the air. So I just wanna be, you know, good on the disclosure there.

you know, up in the air. So I just wanna be, you know, good on the disclosure there.

54:21

So it's not necessarily the fountain of youth. But there's the belief that, you know, if you're if you're doing if you're bringing in stem cells, you know, through an IV,

So it's not necessarily the fountain of youth. But there's the belief that, you know, if you're if you're doing if you're bringing in stem cells, you know, through an IV,

54:32

It will help you,

It will help you,

54:34

lower your

lower your

54:36

biological age,

biological age,

54:37

give you more energy, and help you with

give you more energy, and help you with

54:43

with your autophagy. So, basically, your body's ability to get rid of,

with your autophagy. So, basically, your body's ability to get rid of,

54:48

old and dying cells. If you do that, then the thought is you're gonna have more energy,

old and dying cells. If you do that, then the thought is you're gonna have more energy,

54:53

more energy means, more brain power, more brain power means, more ability to manifest and create great things in the world.

more energy means, more brain power, more brain power means, more ability to manifest and create great things in the world.

55:01

And so this is a another area where let's say you were able to improve your mental function and your energy by twenty five percent.

And so this is a another area where let's say you were able to improve your mental function and your energy by twenty five percent.

55:08

The way, if you do all these things, you could probably do, like, better than twenty five percent.

The way, if you do all these things, you could probably do, like, better than twenty five percent.

55:12

Is that worth

Is that worth

55:14

fifteen thousand dollars a year?

fifteen thousand dollars a year?

55:17

Is roughly how much I spend on this. Maybe I spent twenty or twenty five grand on it. It's not a lot of money. You don't need to pull a Brian Johnson where you're spending a million dollars a year. Get eighty percent of the results. This is the eighty twenty rule of Brian Johnson.

Is roughly how much I spend on this. Maybe I spent twenty or twenty five grand on it. It's not a lot of money. You don't need to pull a Brian Johnson where you're spending a million dollars a year. Get eighty percent of the results. This is the eighty twenty rule of Brian Johnson.

55:31

Yeah. That's what I need. Good. I I I'm gonna hit you send you some recommendations on that. I'll send you some referrals.

Yeah. That's what I need. Good. I I I'm gonna hit you send you some recommendations on that. I'll send you some referrals.

55:37

And,

And,

55:39

and then, yeah, I I'll I'll eventually pull less all this feedback to make it so that we could share it publicly

and then, yeah, I I'll I'll eventually pull less all this feedback to make it so that we could share it publicly

55:46

and for free. So you guys don't necessarily need to pay for your own. Consider your doctor to do this for you. I think it's ridiculous that, like, all the work I'm doing here, I'm spending this money on it. Like, this should be, like, a public

and for free. So you guys don't necessarily need to pay for your own. Consider your doctor to do this for you. I think it's ridiculous that, like, all the work I'm doing here, I'm spending this money on it. Like, this should be, like, a public

55:58

service that's offered.

service that's offered.

56:00

Yeah. Because it's not so personalized to you, basically. No. It's not that personalized.

Yeah. Because it's not so personalized to you, basically. No. It's not that personalized.

56:05

Ninety percent of what I'm doing, like, anyone else should just be able to do on their own. It's just not

Ninety percent of what I'm doing, like, anyone else should just be able to do on their own. It's just not

56:11

this whole longevity optimization

this whole longevity optimization

56:13

arena

arena

56:15

is so new. And in order for other folks to monetize on it, it has to feel bespoke and unique to you when

is so new. And in order for other folks to monetize on it, it has to feel bespoke and unique to you when

56:22

So, give give me the quick rundown. So you spend this money. You have this this program that you're doing. You said you do this exosome

So, give give me the quick rundown. So you spend this money. You have this this program that you're doing. You said you do this exosome

56:30

IVs.

IVs.

56:30

Okay. Great. What are, like, you were gonna go from, like, most impactful to, like, you know, whatever

Okay. Great. What are, like, you were gonna go from, like, most impactful to, like, you know, whatever

56:35

fringe, you know, stuff, what's the most of most impactful stuff you're doing? Again, I'll be super honest. It's hard to know where the impact is.

fringe, you know, stuff, what's the most of most impactful stuff you're doing? Again, I'll be super honest. It's hard to know where the impact is.

56:45

Like, on Or just what you what you kinda believe in or what you would recommend to your cousin or your your friend who you, you know, who you're like, look, we all we get all the disclaimers. You're not a doctor. This is not your there's not, you know, bulletproof science.

Like, on Or just what you what you kinda believe in or what you would recommend to your cousin or your your friend who you, you know, who you're like, look, we all we get all the disclaimers. You're not a doctor. This is not your there's not, you know, bulletproof science.

56:58

Cool. Okay. Among's friends, do you have any kind of stuff? What your opinion is? Yeah. I'm a friend of e g one. I'm sure people have talked about that on your pod before.

Cool. Okay. Among's friends, do you have any kind of stuff? What your opinion is? Yeah. I'm a friend of e g one. I'm sure people have talked about that on your pod before.

57:07

I'm a fan of, adding in other

I'm a fan of, adding in other

57:10

there's this whole list of supplements and new tropic, that I can't even recite the name of for you, but I could publish the list for you if you'd like. And then having them all, again, put together and you know, a few compact pills that you could take.

there's this whole list of supplements and new tropic, that I can't even recite the name of for you, but I could publish the list for you if you'd like. And then having them all, again, put together and you know, a few compact pills that you could take.

57:24

And then I have a friend. Who does that? You you, like, go to a compounding pharmacy and you're like, Can you make these pills for me? Pretty, you know, like, cool. We'll have, like, thirty two pills delivered. Like, how how does that work? Yeah. I have a friend who actually has his own. So I get it at cost, but my plan is to work with him to create it so that he can make some profit, and then my friends will

And then I have a friend. Who does that? You you, like, go to a compounding pharmacy and you're like, Can you make these pills for me? Pretty, you know, like, cool. We'll have, like, thirty two pills delivered. Like, how how does that work? Yeah. I have a friend who actually has his own. So I get it at cost, but my plan is to work with him to create it so that he can make some profit, and then my friends will

57:44

have basically what I take and

have basically what I take and

57:47

not have it be marked up too much, like all these other scumbag internet companies we're trying to do.

not have it be marked up too much, like all these other scumbag internet companies we're trying to do.

57:54

Shout out to the scumbags out there.

Shout out to the scumbags out there.

57:56

Keep keep doing your thing. That's

Keep keep doing your thing. That's

57:59

it in a nutshell. I love that system I've used. I'm a huge fan of, and then there's also.

it in a nutshell. I love that system I've used. I'm a huge fan of, and then there's also.

58:05

Yeah. I mean, there are a bunch of peptides as well if you wanna do the more advanced thing

Yeah. I mean, there are a bunch of peptides as well if you wanna do the more advanced thing

58:10

And on the peptides,

And on the peptides,

58:11

you know, some of them are injectable.

you know, some of them are injectable.

58:14

So

So

58:16

you know, that I would consult a doctor on,

you know, that I would consult a doctor on,

58:19

but the supplements you you could probably just do. Right. And I would benchmark. I would take, the true diagnostic

but the supplements you you could probably just do. Right. And I would benchmark. I would take, the true diagnostic

58:27

by last fall, you know, each test just to see how you're doing before middle and after.

by last fall, you know, each test just to see how you're doing before middle and after.

58:33

And,

And,

58:36

yeah, so that's another. So taxes, health,

yeah, so that's another. So taxes, health,

58:41

coaching in mindset,

coaching in mindset,

58:43

what are the other categories for, you know, billionaire secrets we haven't covered?

what are the other categories for, you know, billionaire secrets we haven't covered?

58:48

I think those are big ones. The I mean, the other one is what you talked about, which is,

I think those are big ones. The I mean, the other one is what you talked about, which is,

58:53

being non operational. So operational. Yep. Create a vehicle that's gonna create all your other vehicles,

being non operational. So operational. Yep. Create a vehicle that's gonna create all your other vehicles,

58:59

and and be able to recruit talent that's gonna be able to put the pieces together. The way I look at it is, like, every project needs kinda like a vision. It needs capital. It needs an operator. It needs, you know, what, you know, what are what does it need? Okay. I'm gonna be able to create those packages. And so that's what I think that's what a lot of them do is they they get out of, I'm gonna go every day and work on this one business and toil away, like, turning the crank myself

and and be able to recruit talent that's gonna be able to put the pieces together. The way I look at it is, like, every project needs kinda like a vision. It needs capital. It needs an operator. It needs, you know, what, you know, what are what does it need? Okay. I'm gonna be able to create those packages. And so that's what I think that's what a lot of them do is they they get out of, I'm gonna go every day and work on this one business and toil away, like, turning the crank myself

59:20

And, you know, that's the the the higher leverage way that they they operate is is like that. Yeah. Exactly.

And, you know, that's the the the higher leverage way that they they operate is is like that. Yeah. Exactly.

59:26

Yeah. I think that's great. And,

Yeah. I think that's great. And,

59:29

I think also billionaires have a different mindset when it comes to buying expensive things.

I think also billionaires have a different mindset when it comes to buying expensive things.

59:35

So you think, oh, they have so much money. Why would they lease that the boat or the plane or the exotic cars.

So you think, oh, they have so much money. Why would they lease that the boat or the plane or the exotic cars.

59:43

And

And

59:44

the truth is

the truth is

59:47

on a lot of that, it's taxes.

on a lot of that, it's taxes.

59:49

So I have a friend who's buying a thirty million dollar yacht right now, and he found a way for it to give him a thirty million dollar write off. He's gonna charge it out for a bit, but, like, he saves more money on taxes than what he's spending on the yacht. And his bank will finance eighty percent of the yacht. He's only putting twenty percent down. So it's

So I have a friend who's buying a thirty million dollar yacht right now, and he found a way for it to give him a thirty million dollar write off. He's gonna charge it out for a bit, but, like, he saves more money on taxes than what he's spending on the yacht. And his bank will finance eighty percent of the yacht. He's only putting twenty percent down. So it's

01:00:08

net net cash flow positive for him to buy the yacht. Ironically,

net net cash flow positive for him to buy the yacht. Ironically,

01:00:12

and the operational costs

and the operational costs

01:00:14

are offset largely by the charter.

are offset largely by the charter.

01:00:17

And you don't think that, but it pays for all his costs

And you don't think that, but it pays for all his costs

01:00:22

And,

And,

01:00:23

people do this with airplanes too.

people do this with airplanes too.

01:00:25

I did this with my airplane. I mean, I hadn't figured right off buying the airplane, then when I put down in cash to buy the airplane.

I did this with my airplane. I mean, I hadn't figured right off buying the airplane, then when I put down in cash to buy the airplane.

01:00:32

So Can you give the quick math on, it doesn't be your specific plan, but just, like, just the general math so people don't know, like, How does the buy a plane work from a tax perspective? Yeah. Well, it the rules are changing, but I I closed online about a year ago.

So Can you give the quick math on, it doesn't be your specific plan, but just, like, just the general math so people don't know, like, How does the buy a plane work from a tax perspective? Yeah. Well, it the rules are changing, but I I closed online about a year ago.

01:00:47

And,

And,

01:00:48

let's say you buy a plane, it's five million bucks. And your bank's willing to finance most of it. So you put a million dollars down.

let's say you buy a plane, it's five million bucks. And your bank's willing to finance most of it. So you put a million dollars down.

01:00:56

But you got a five million dollar write off on the plane. And it's a year one write off. Right? That that was a accelerated bonus depreciation year one.

But you got a five million dollar write off on the plane. And it's a year one write off. Right? That that was a accelerated bonus depreciation year one.

01:01:05

But now the problem is this year, it's only eighty percent. You could deduct the front next year at sixty percent and then forty and then twenty.

But now the problem is this year, it's only eighty percent. You could deduct the front next year at sixty percent and then forty and then twenty.

01:01:14

Yes. It's getting worse and worse, but,

Yes. It's getting worse and worse, but,

01:01:18

but the point is you do get a tax benefit for buying these assets. They are financed.

but the point is you do get a tax benefit for buying these assets. They are financed.

01:01:23

And then also

And then also

01:01:24

if it enables you to do war what you want, then there's that, like, incapable benefit

if it enables you to do war what you want, then there's that, like, incapable benefit

01:01:29

that you receive.

that you receive.

01:01:32

Seeing with the excited cars. A lot of people I know who have excited cars, their excited cars are worth more than what they pay for them.

Seeing with the excited cars. A lot of people I know who have excited cars, their excited cars are worth more than what they pay for them.

01:01:39

So they buy the car, they dry it for a year, and then they sell the car

So they buy the car, they dry it for a year, and then they sell the car

01:01:44

at the same cost or a higher cost than what they paid for it because other people can't they wanna have access to that car,

at the same cost or a higher cost than what they paid for it because other people can't they wanna have access to that car,

01:01:52

but they don't have a relationship with the manufacturer, and they weren't willing to four years on the waiting list to get that car. Yeah. I was surprised to learn that that the,

but they don't have a relationship with the manufacturer, and they weren't willing to four years on the waiting list to get that car. Yeah. I was surprised to learn that that the,

01:02:03

there's just a whole class of really expensive cars that you basically get to drive for free. It's like putting a deposit down. So you go by this car.

there's just a whole class of really expensive cars that you basically get to drive for free. It's like putting a deposit down. So you go by this car.

01:02:10

I don't even know if this would classify, but, like, our our friend had a McLaren, and he's like, yeah, it's great. I driven it you know, for a few years, and I'm gonna sell it for exactly what I bought it for. It doesn't depreciate.

I don't even know if this would classify, but, like, our our friend had a McLaren, and he's like, yeah, it's great. I driven it you know, for a few years, and I'm gonna sell it for exactly what I bought it for. It doesn't depreciate.

01:02:20

Or it's up, you know, I'll I'll make ten twenty grand on this thing.

Or it's up, you know, I'll I'll make ten twenty grand on this thing.

01:02:24

For the privilege of driving this around.

For the privilege of driving this around.

01:02:27

And, there's a whole bunch of these, like, rich get richer

And, there's a whole bunch of these, like, rich get richer

01:02:30

style setups, like, you know, where

style setups, like, you know, where

01:02:33

If you if you once you start to play it it's like a snowball. It's like you use the money to buy something that's gonna make you more efficient and have more fun or you know, do better business. And then that also is gonna save you money on taxes today, and then it also gonna hold value because it's a rare asset. And so you're gonna know, if you ever sell it, you didn't lose anything just for holding this. So, you know, you get all these, like, gains, and then they start to accumulate once you start to get there. And I think that's

If you if you once you start to play it it's like a snowball. It's like you use the money to buy something that's gonna make you more efficient and have more fun or you know, do better business. And then that also is gonna save you money on taxes today, and then it also gonna hold value because it's a rare asset. And so you're gonna know, if you ever sell it, you didn't lose anything just for holding this. So, you know, you get all these, like, gains, and then they start to accumulate once you start to get there. And I think that's

01:02:58

a real advantage. And, you know, some people, like, who I think are on the other side of that hate that, and they feel like that's so unfair and unjust.

a real advantage. And, you know, some people, like, who I think are on the other side of that hate that, and they feel like that's so unfair and unjust.

01:03:06

You know, I don't really give a moral opinion either way. It's just that is what it is. And, you know, you could choose to either,

You know, I don't really give a moral opinion either way. It's just that is what it is. And, you know, you could choose to either,

01:03:12

benefit from that you could choose to ignore it, or you could choose to be upset about it. You have many choices on how you're gonna react to, you know, a bunch of these things that that come with, you know, the the snowball of of of, you know, wealth Yeah. I think I think it's easy to heat on it, but what's cool is that people could learn about mindset and how to get there. And that's what you're doing with your pod. Like, you're very

benefit from that you could choose to ignore it, or you could choose to be upset about it. You have many choices on how you're gonna react to, you know, a bunch of these things that that come with, you know, the the snowball of of of, you know, wealth Yeah. I think I think it's easy to heat on it, but what's cool is that people could learn about mindset and how to get there. And that's what you're doing with your pod. Like, you're very

01:03:34

specific about, like, how to do these things, I've noticed,

specific about, like, how to do these things, I've noticed,

01:03:38

and this was not available to people five years ago.

and this was not available to people five years ago.

01:03:41

So Yeah.

So Yeah.

01:03:43

Well, well, it's funny because, like, money is this,

Well, well, it's funny because, like, money is this,

01:03:45

taboo thing. It's, like, we're all supposed to not share anything we know about money, how much we make, we how we invest, what the returns are, what taxes what do you do with your taxes? Like, everybody plays, you know, closed guarded on that. And, that's a real shame because it means it's very hard to learn,

taboo thing. It's, like, we're all supposed to not share anything we know about money, how much we make, we how we invest, what the returns are, what taxes what do you do with your taxes? Like, everybody plays, you know, closed guarded on that. And, that's a real shame because it means it's very hard to learn,

01:03:59

until

until

01:04:00

that gets cracked open. And somebody starts sharing, and then more people start sharing, then you start to learn faster, And, there's this great Connor McGregor quote where he talks about, like, Connor McGregor went from

that gets cracked open. And somebody starts sharing, and then more people start sharing, then you start to learn faster, And, there's this great Connor McGregor quote where he talks about, like, Connor McGregor went from

01:04:10

plumber

plumber

01:04:11

to highest paid athlete in the world in a span of five years. And along the way, he was higher paid than any UFC guy ever was faster than anybody was, and there was a lot of guys who had been paying their dues for fifteen years

to highest paid athlete in the world in a span of five years. And along the way, he was higher paid than any UFC guy ever was faster than anybody was, and there was a lot of guys who had been paying their dues for fifteen years

01:04:23

fighting for, you know, going out there and, like, fighting in a cage match for twenty thousand dollars. And then they have to pay for their flights or hotels, the medical bills, and they are left with two grand at the end of it. And they were very bitter. And, someone asked him in an interview. They go, Connor, you know, do you ever think about kinda toning it down? Because

fighting for, you know, going out there and, like, fighting in a cage match for twenty thousand dollars. And then they have to pay for their flights or hotels, the medical bills, and they are left with two grand at the end of it. And they were very bitter. And, someone asked him in an interview. They go, Connor, you know, do you ever think about kinda toning it down? Because

01:04:40

you know, there's so many people that are, you know, get upset when you talk about,

you know, there's so many people that are, you know, get upset when you talk about,

01:04:44

you call your shots, you say how much you're making, you wear the nice watch, you wear the nice clothes, And he goes,

you call your shots, you say how much you're making, you wear the nice watch, you wear the nice clothes, And he goes,

01:04:51

no. That says something about them, not me. He goes, some people see this, and they take inspiration.

no. That says something about them, not me. He goes, some people see this, and they take inspiration.

01:04:56

And that's who I was. I saw people doing things, and I took inspiration.

And that's who I was. I saw people doing things, and I took inspiration.

01:05:00

And other people see things and they get bitterness, and they will end up bitter. It is not my job to figure out, you know, they get to decide if they're gonna go on the bitterness path or the inspiration path.

And other people see things and they get bitterness, and they will end up bitter. It is not my job to figure out, you know, they get to decide if they're gonna go on the bitterness path or the inspiration path.

01:05:10

You know, the right people will get inspired.

You know, the right people will get inspired.

01:05:13

And, that actually kind of freed me up in this podcast to do things that I think, you know, ask questions or talk about things that I think are

And, that actually kind of freed me up in this podcast to do things that I think, you know, ask questions or talk about things that I think are

01:05:21

you're supposed to downplay everything. You're supposed to not talk about, you know, certain stuff.

you're supposed to downplay everything. You're supposed to not talk about, you know, certain stuff.

01:05:26

But fuck that. You know, that doesn't seem like, like, you know, I Yeah. I, when I was growing up, I couldn't wait to get a little more information or an inspiration or hear, you know, that somebody, oh, this guy has a private chef. Damn, that'd be awesome. I don't feel bad that I don't have one now. I now have a new thing that I've decided that would be really awesome, fun to work for in a in a great, like, an I a way to improve quality of life that I had never even thought about.

But fuck that. You know, that doesn't seem like, like, you know, I Yeah. I, when I was growing up, I couldn't wait to get a little more information or an inspiration or hear, you know, that somebody, oh, this guy has a private chef. Damn, that'd be awesome. I don't feel bad that I don't have one now. I now have a new thing that I've decided that would be really awesome, fun to work for in a in a great, like, an I a way to improve quality of life that I had never even thought about.

01:05:50

And, thank you for putting it on my radar. Thank you for putting it in my in my, you know, in front of me that I now wanted to go go do that. I love that. Yeah. Like, I think it is difficult to struggle with the feeling of jealousy

And, thank you for putting it on my radar. Thank you for putting it in my in my, you know, in front of me that I now wanted to go go do that. I love that. Yeah. Like, I think it is difficult to struggle with the feeling of jealousy

01:06:04

and aspiration.

and aspiration.

01:06:06

And

And

01:06:07

another trick that I'm not sure if this came from Twenty Robbins for someone else, but if you're surrounded by people who are, more successful than you instead of envying them,

another trick that I'm not sure if this came from Twenty Robbins for someone else, but if you're surrounded by people who are, more successful than you instead of envying them,

01:06:18

weedy could interpret as, hey, this is a great sign because this means more success and more happiness is coming my way. Now that I'm able to surround myself and I track these people into my life. How awesome?

weedy could interpret as, hey, this is a great sign because this means more success and more happiness is coming my way. Now that I'm able to surround myself and I track these people into my life. How awesome?

01:06:29

And,

And,

01:06:30

I remember

I remember

01:06:31

having to deal with that a lot, especially when I was

having to deal with that a lot, especially when I was

01:06:34

a up and coming entrepreneur, and I knew absolutely nothing. And I have you know, drew from Dropbox and Sam Altman coming to speak to me and these, like,

a up and coming entrepreneur, and I knew absolutely nothing. And I have you know, drew from Dropbox and Sam Altman coming to speak to me and these, like,

01:06:44

CS students.

CS students.

01:06:45

Right? Like, we didn't know anything.

Right? Like, we didn't know anything.

01:06:48

And, and the gap felt very wide by just having them there to spend time with us and to say, hey, we're open to

And, and the gap felt very wide by just having them there to spend time with us and to say, hey, we're open to

01:06:56

Like, just email us if you have any questions about what it's like to be a founder, we're gonna be there for you. Just feeling like all of them were approachable and accessible.

Like, just email us if you have any questions about what it's like to be a founder, we're gonna be there for you. Just feeling like all of them were approachable and accessible.

01:07:03

I think made it easier for me to focus on the education instead of the entity.

I think made it easier for me to focus on the education instead of the entity.

01:07:09

Right. That's a that's a great way of putting I ask you one thing before we go? Because I know I took too much of your time. Sure. Sam Altman is now, like, this extremely interesting

Right. That's a that's a great way of putting I ask you one thing before we go? Because I know I took too much of your time. Sure. Sam Altman is now, like, this extremely interesting

01:07:18

public character.

public character.

01:07:20

Very few people actually know him. Sounds like you've had interactions with him in the past.

Very few people actually know him. Sounds like you've had interactions with him in the past.

01:07:25

Can you give me your impression or any story you remember of Sam Aldman,

Can you give me your impression or any story you remember of Sam Aldman,

01:07:30

because

because

01:07:31

I remember reading Paul Graham's essays, like, ten years ago where he's like,

I remember reading Paul Graham's essays, like, ten years ago where he's like,

01:07:35

of the five most impressive people I've met, it's like Bill Gates or whatever, the Alarian Sergei

of the five most impressive people I've met, it's like Bill Gates or whatever, the Alarian Sergei

01:07:40

and Sam Altman, you know, and he's like, That's when he was doing looped and nobody you know, there was no

and Sam Altman, you know, and he's like, That's when he was doing looped and nobody you know, there was no

01:07:46

there was no track record. He he sort of was was, like, it was just very apparent in meeting him. That time that this guy's gonna go on to do great things. Did you get that sense? Or, I don't know how much interaction you had with him? Yeah. I actually

there was no track record. He he sort of was was, like, it was just very apparent in meeting him. That time that this guy's gonna go on to do great things. Did you get that sense? Or, I don't know how much interaction you had with him? Yeah. I actually

01:07:59

I mean, this was probably thirteen years ago now, but I I had a one on one with Telegram,

I mean, this was probably thirteen years ago now, but I I had a one on one with Telegram,

01:08:05

and I asked him to share. Like, who would you think the most,

and I asked him to share. Like, who would you think the most,

01:08:11

you know, successful people you've ever met? Like, who will who will not end up being thirty years from now? If we have another one at one like this.

you know, successful people you've ever met? Like, who will who will not end up being thirty years from now? If we have another one at one like this.

01:08:19

And Sam was on the list. I'm not gonna share a few others who are on that list, but They're all also doing extremely well.

And Sam was on the list. I'm not gonna share a few others who are on that list, but They're all also doing extremely well.

01:08:27

And,

And,

01:08:30

What a question by you, by the way? Fantastic question.

What a question by you, by the way? Fantastic question.

01:08:33

Yeah. And I asked Paul, what are the things in common with these people? What

Yeah. And I asked Paul, what are the things in common with these people? What

01:08:38

what did by the way, he put me on the list on the worst one by far. So I'm embarrassed and I felt like I disappointed him, but we'll see that for another day.

what did by the way, he put me on the list on the worst one by far. So I'm embarrassed and I felt like I disappointed him, but we'll see that for another day.

01:08:48

And I asked him for, like, are personality traits you find in these people? Like, how?

And I asked him for, like, are personality traits you find in these people? Like, how?

01:08:54

You know, what do you see?

You know, what do you see?

01:08:57

And

And

01:08:58

For Thin, it it was less about the intelligence,

For Thin, it it was less about the intelligence,

01:09:02

actually. It was not about,

actually. It was not about,

01:09:04

it it goes back to this common theme we've had throughout the past hour and a half year on, like, grit and being willing to be unconventional

it it goes back to this common theme we've had throughout the past hour and a half year on, like, grit and being willing to be unconventional

01:09:11

and to try different approaches and to,

and to try different approaches and to,

01:09:15

you know, to collect ideas from multiple species and merge them together to come up with something even better than what a domain expert in any one field would be able to come up with on their own.

you know, to collect ideas from multiple species and merge them together to come up with something even better than what a domain expert in any one field would be able to come up with on their own.

01:09:25

And just, like, how they show up and what they're willing to do to meet the right people was a big part of,

And just, like, how they show up and what they're willing to do to meet the right people was a big part of,

01:09:32

what makes so that's that also reinforced my wanting to have this policy of just get on the plane

what makes so that's that also reinforced my wanting to have this policy of just get on the plane

01:09:38

because that's a trait that successful

because that's a trait that successful

01:09:42

people perceive

people perceive

01:09:43

will lead to,

will lead to,

01:09:45

you know, you being destined for greatness. So to speak, oh, alright. Well, don't think I'm destined for greatness, but what if I could manufacture making other people think I'm destined for greatness, maybe I'll actually

you know, you being destined for greatness. So to speak, oh, alright. Well, don't think I'm destined for greatness, but what if I could manufacture making other people think I'm destined for greatness, maybe I'll actually

01:09:55

maybe I'll treat that reality somehow.

maybe I'll treat that reality somehow.

01:09:59

Yeah. Eventually, you know, it walks like a duck. It talks like a duck. Hey. It became a duck, you know, by the end of it, actually. So those traits you said, just now, sorry to recap was,

Yeah. Eventually, you know, it walks like a duck. It talks like a duck. Hey. It became a duck, you know, by the end of it, actually. So those traits you said, just now, sorry to recap was,

01:10:09

grit or resourcefulness,

grit or resourcefulness,

01:10:11

like, you know, the the the willingness to make things happen, you said,

like, you know, the the the willingness to make things happen, you said,

01:10:16

going into being being able to collect ideas from multiple spaces and and synthesize it so that you actually might create something more than any domain than the than the individual domain experts had been able to reach. You get to a new a new ceiling,

going into being being able to collect ideas from multiple spaces and and synthesize it so that you actually might create something more than any domain than the than the individual domain experts had been able to reach. You get to a new a new ceiling,

01:10:29

from that. That was, like, the second that you said. Third was

from that. That was, like, the second that you said. Third was

01:10:33

wanting to meet the right people, ask the right questions, and being willing to go to certain lengths to to kinda meet them. Right? That was that was the third one. Did I miss one that you said? Yeah. Just to build on that third one is that how can you make yourself

wanting to meet the right people, ask the right questions, and being willing to go to certain lengths to to kinda meet them. Right? That was that was the third one. Did I miss one that you said? Yeah. Just to build on that third one is that how can you make yourself

01:10:45

interesting enough at a dinner party

interesting enough at a dinner party

01:10:48

so that they would want to invite you back to spend more time with them. How do you broaden your field of knowledge

so that they would want to invite you back to spend more time with them. How do you broaden your field of knowledge

01:10:55

to be able to be an advisor,

to be able to be an advisor,

01:10:58

you know,

you know,

01:10:59

someone that, you know, a king or presidents would want to call upon for feedback.

someone that, you know, a king or presidents would want to call upon for feedback.

01:11:06

And, you know, you would applaud your m SaaS or if this was years ago before you left for the UK.

And, you know, you would applaud your m SaaS or if this was years ago before you left for the UK.

01:11:11

He has a huge library of books, and he's read most of these books.

He has a huge library of books, and he's read most of these books.

01:11:15

And

And

01:11:16

and he's just fascinated by so many topics.

and he's just fascinated by so many topics.

01:11:20

And that also left an impression on me Okay. Like, we should just learn about random things that have nothing to do with our day to day business

And that also left an impression on me Okay. Like, we should just learn about random things that have nothing to do with our day to day business

01:11:28

because they'll help us with category number three on that list.

because they'll help us with category number three on that list.

01:11:31

Right. Right.

Right. Right.

01:11:33

Yeah. That's such a good call. I went to a farming conference last year, like, two years ago. I'm, like, a I still heard them. I went ahead. And it was the best conference I had been to in, like, five years, because I'd only been going to tech conferences.

Yeah. That's such a good call. I went to a farming conference last year, like, two years ago. I'm, like, a I still heard them. I went ahead. And it was the best conference I had been to in, like, five years, because I'd only been going to tech conferences.

01:11:45

And, you know, I'm not learning anything at these tech conferences or, you know, like, I'm adding the same incremental knowledge, and it's the same thoughts and philosophies and same types of people in that bubble. And there's nothing wrong with that, but, like, there's definitely, like, you want that twenty percent, like, total change up that is,

And, you know, I'm not learning anything at these tech conferences or, you know, like, I'm adding the same incremental knowledge, and it's the same thoughts and philosophies and same types of people in that bubble. And there's nothing wrong with that, but, like, there's definitely, like, you want that twenty percent, like, total change up that is,

01:12:01

completely

completely

01:12:02

at a left field that's, like, wow. These guys talk about different things. Think about different have a different perspective, live in a I was in Kansas City. Right? Like, it was, like, you know, you go to a different place and you have a totally different perspective. And I literally started a company while I was there because I was, like, piecing together, like, two ideas, one from the tech world and one from this, like, farmer that we had met. And, like, it, you know, that was, you know, when we created the milk road. And we even the name milk road was, like, because we're at a freaking farming conference, and there's, like, a dairy farmer next to us. You know, like, it all kinda played in to to to having that. If, you know, we hadn't stirred the pot in that exact way, know, maybe you would have come up with a different answer.

at a left field that's, like, wow. These guys talk about different things. Think about different have a different perspective, live in a I was in Kansas City. Right? Like, it was, like, you know, you go to a different place and you have a totally different perspective. And I literally started a company while I was there because I was, like, piecing together, like, two ideas, one from the tech world and one from this, like, farmer that we had met. And, like, it, you know, that was, you know, when we created the milk road. And we even the name milk road was, like, because we're at a freaking farming conference, and there's, like, a dairy farmer next to us. You know, like, it all kinda played in to to to having that. If, you know, we hadn't stirred the pot in that exact way, know, maybe you would have come up with a different answer.

01:12:39

Yeah. That's super cool that you did that. And I I'm curious. So

Yeah. That's super cool that you did that. And I I'm curious. So

01:12:45

download from you, what is also on your list of, like, the next areas you would wanna learn about. And,

download from you, what is also on your list of, like, the next areas you would wanna learn about. And,

01:12:52

I think actually a good exercise for me too to think about. Because for me, it's been bio lately, but I I would like to broaden it even more. So give an example of one of the bio companies that you founded what it, you know, that give us the high level of, like, the problem, the solution you guys are trying to do, and, like, you know, the the rough stage where it's at.

I think actually a good exercise for me too to think about. Because for me, it's been bio lately, but I I would like to broaden it even more. So give an example of one of the bio companies that you founded what it, you know, that give us the high level of, like, the problem, the solution you guys are trying to do, and, like, you know, the the rough stage where it's at.

01:13:11

Yeah. The high level is

Yeah. The high level is

01:13:14

I set up a holding company,

I set up a holding company,

01:13:17

for biotech

for biotech

01:13:19

venture creation

venture creation

01:13:20

centered around the scientists named Mike Levin. If you search Mike Levin, he has a TED Talk,

centered around the scientists named Mike Levin. If you search Mike Levin, he has a TED Talk,

01:13:26

He has a three and a half hour interview with Lesfriedman that I highly recommend you watch, and you will get sucked in because

He has a three and a half hour interview with Lesfriedman that I highly recommend you watch, and you will get sucked in because

01:13:33

He's a scientist who studied. He got he has PhD in genetics at Harvard,

He's a scientist who studied. He got he has PhD in genetics at Harvard,

01:13:37

and then now he's devoted his entire career to basically proving the fact that genetics are actually not that relevant in the whole scheme of things, and that it's this other thing, bioelectricity that dictates how long we live,

and then now he's devoted his entire career to basically proving the fact that genetics are actually not that relevant in the whole scheme of things, and that it's this other thing, bioelectricity that dictates how long we live,

01:13:50

whether or not we get cancer,

whether or not we get cancer,

01:13:54

how our limbs and body shape forms, it's actually not as much genetics as you think in genetics is like the hardware level of biology,

how our limbs and body shape forms, it's actually not as much genetics as you think in genetics is like the hardware level of biology,

01:14:02

whereas he says bio electricity is like the software. So you you told me this. You you were like, we have one company's, astonishing labs. It's about bioelectricity. And I was like, what's I've never even heard this word. And you said it in a in a really interesting way. You go,

whereas he says bio electricity is like the software. So you you told me this. You you were like, we have one company's, astonishing labs. It's about bioelectricity. And I was like, what's I've never even heard this word. And you said it in a in a really interesting way. You go,

01:14:15

You know, people think that it's, like, genetics is kind of like what your genes say or your DNA says is kinda like what ends up manifesting.

You know, people think that it's, like, genetics is kind of like what your genes say or your DNA says is kinda like what ends up manifesting.

01:14:23

And you're like, turns out it's not that at all, which already I was like, oh, that's that kind of narrative violation. What is what do you mean? I that's all I've ever heard. So what is the answer?

And you're like, turns out it's not that at all, which already I was like, oh, that's that kind of narrative violation. What is what do you mean? I that's all I've ever heard. So what is the answer?

01:14:33

And you were like, yeah. There's this idea of bio electricity, and I went and I watched his TED Talk. And he talks about, like, you know, they're able to, like, you know, grow a arm on something's an animal's They're able, like, to grow third eye. Right? They're able to do all these, like, show all these amazing, like, phenotype outputs

And you were like, yeah. There's this idea of bio electricity, and I went and I watched his TED Talk. And he talks about, like, you know, they're able to, like, you know, grow a arm on something's an animal's They're able, like, to grow third eye. Right? They're able to do all these, like, show all these amazing, like, phenotype outputs

01:14:49

without

without

01:14:51

any genetic modification.

any genetic modification.

01:14:52

And, so can you just, like, explain that a little bit more about, like, you know, the kind of the layman's version of it? Yeah. Well, I, goddess. Don't even fully understand the science of it, but that's everything you said is correct. Like, if if you manipulate

And, so can you just, like, explain that a little bit more about, like, you know, the kind of the layman's version of it? Yeah. Well, I, goddess. Don't even fully understand the science of it, but that's everything you said is correct. Like, if if you manipulate

01:15:06

the bio electricity

the bio electricity

01:15:07

on an animal,

on an animal,

01:15:09

you can create weird outputs like this. So when they saw that a tadpole was growing an eyeball, the bioelectric

you can create weird outputs like this. So when they saw that a tadpole was growing an eyeball, the bioelectric

01:15:17

signature of the cells in that area changed.

signature of the cells in that area changed.

01:15:20

And so the question was, oh, what if he created that same biologic signature, but on another part of the body, what will happen, will it grow an eyeball? Not only does it grow an eyeball there, but it grows connection to the spinal cord.

And so the question was, oh, what if he created that same biologic signature, but on another part of the body, what will happen, will it grow an eyeball? Not only does it grow an eyeball there, but it grows connection to the spinal cord.

01:15:36

And so you don't have to, micro manage biology.

And so you don't have to, micro manage biology.

01:15:40

If you try to change that through

If you try to change that through

01:15:42

modify the genome, how would you do that? There'd be no way to do that is the answer.

modify the genome, how would you do that? There'd be no way to do that is the answer.

01:15:48

And so if you just think about it logically,

And so if you just think about it logically,

01:15:51

genetics are therefore not the end all be all. So anyway, I heard of this that blew my mind. I said, this this is brilliant.

genetics are therefore not the end all be all. So anyway, I heard of this that blew my mind. I said, this this is brilliant.

01:15:57

Like, does he does he have a commercialization partner?

Like, does he does he have a commercialization partner?

01:16:00

What's the status of it? And the answer is

What's the status of it? And the answer is

01:16:03

it's still in the lab, and there was no one commercializing this yet. And Paul Allen was funding the whole lab And then Paul Allen tragically passed away, and then the funding dried up. So he needed money. He needed people to help him make it a real biotech company. So I come in and I say, I know nothing about biotech.

it's still in the lab, and there was no one commercializing this yet. And Paul Allen was funding the whole lab And then Paul Allen tragically passed away, and then the funding dried up. So he needed money. He needed people to help him make it a real biotech company. So I come in and I say, I know nothing about biotech.

01:16:21

I know a lot of rich people who would love to find crazy stuff like this.

I know a lot of rich people who would love to find crazy stuff like this.

01:16:25

And then wait. Wait. Wait. When you say, I came in, means, like, I cold emailed him. I I called him. I I met him. What what did you actually do? I met him through a friend. So I had a friend who was telling me about Mike over lunch. And I thought, this is brilliant. This is amazing. Could we fly out and meet Mike, like, like, next week? Like, I'll literally clear my calendar and I'll spend a few days, and I'll get to know him.

And then wait. Wait. Wait. When you say, I came in, means, like, I cold emailed him. I I called him. I I met him. What what did you actually do? I met him through a friend. So I had a friend who was telling me about Mike over lunch. And I thought, this is brilliant. This is amazing. Could we fly out and meet Mike, like, like, next week? Like, I'll literally clear my calendar and I'll spend a few days, and I'll get to know him.

01:16:47

And

And

01:16:48

figure out what we could do with this.

figure out what we could do with this.

01:16:50

And so I met Mike, spent some time with them, and realized that this is really

And so I met Mike, spent some time with them, and realized that this is really

01:16:56

compelling,

compelling,

01:16:58

and

and

01:16:59

we could do something cool out of it. So,

we could do something cool out of it. So,

01:17:02

so I hired this guy named Tom, Tom had taken a drug called Alsanris from lab all the way through FDA approval, full approval

so I hired this guy named Tom, Tom had taken a drug called Alsanris from lab all the way through FDA approval, full approval

01:17:11

for sixteen million dollars, which is absolutely crazy

for sixteen million dollars, which is absolutely crazy

01:17:16

in the drug world. Like, normally, it takes hundreds of millions of dollars to get something approved by the FDA,

in the drug world. Like, normally, it takes hundreds of millions of dollars to get something approved by the FDA,

01:17:22

but his drug actually worked.

but his drug actually worked.

01:17:24

It was putting patients in full remission, the first eight out of nine patients.

It was putting patients in full remission, the first eight out of nine patients.

01:17:29

Normally, they would be dead within months. With this drug, they were

Normally, they would be dead within months. With this drug, they were

01:17:34

they were going into remission. So

they were going into remission. So

01:17:36

I brought him in to go do

I brought him in to go do

01:17:39

due diligence on all of Mike Levin's Science.

due diligence on all of Mike Levin's Science.

01:17:43

And figure out a strategy for turning these into real biotech companies. And so my contribution was

And figure out a strategy for turning these into real biotech companies. And so my contribution was

01:17:49

I have eighteen

I have eighteen

01:17:51

I have twelve people who work with me at my holding company or whatever you wanna call it. For me, I don't really think of it as a holdco or a venture studio. For me, it's just an extension

I have twelve people who work with me at my holding company or whatever you wanna call it. For me, I don't really think of it as a holdco or a venture studio. For me, it's just an extension

01:18:01

of me,

of me,

01:18:03

where if there's something I wanna manifest in the world, I have a team of brilliant people who'll figure out how to help me make that happen. That's amazing. And so,

where if there's something I wanna manifest in the world, I have a team of brilliant people who'll figure out how to help me make that happen. That's amazing. And so,

01:18:12

so you do that. What is the, like,

so you do that. What is the, like,

01:18:15

you know, what's the product or what are you guys actually building?

you know, what's the product or what are you guys actually building?

01:18:18

We are building,

We are building,

01:18:20

several companies

several companies

01:18:21

under this holdco. So the first company we created

under this holdco. So the first company we created

01:18:26

is called Salajabu.

is called Salajabu.

01:18:28

And it's essentially a company that will help overcome drug resistance.

And it's essentially a company that will help overcome drug resistance.

01:18:33

And,

And,

01:18:36

how do I make this more concrete

how do I make this more concrete

01:18:38

if you're taking,

if you're taking,

01:18:40

drugs for

drugs for

01:18:41

your leukemia?

your leukemia?

01:18:42

Or you're taking chemo drugs.

Or you're taking chemo drugs.

01:18:45

It might be effective and work for a while. You have lots of drugs that are effective and work, but then one day they stopped working. And when they stopped working,

It might be effective and work for a while. You have lots of drugs that are effective and work, but then one day they stopped working. And when they stopped working,

01:18:54

unfortunately,

unfortunately,

01:18:55

there are sometimes no other viable options for the patient, which means they're gonna then die. But a monthly, a month earlier, the drugs were working, and they were fine. Right? So that's one company. There's another company that's developing,

there are sometimes no other viable options for the patient, which means they're gonna then die. But a monthly, a month earlier, the drugs were working, and they were fine. Right? So that's one company. There's another company that's developing,

01:19:10

programmable human bio bots. And in fact, this got, you know, there's art involved about this, in Nature as of today,

programmable human bio bots. And in fact, this got, you know, there's art involved about this, in Nature as of today,

01:19:18

and that company is called Antrobots.

and that company is called Antrobots.

01:19:20

Wow. So I'll send you more info on that if you're curious

Wow. So I'll send you more info on that if you're curious

01:19:23

That is really cool. I think CNN's gonna post their interview with Mike today about that as well.

That is really cool. I think CNN's gonna post their interview with Mike today about that as well.

01:19:30

And so is all your all your bio stuff under

And so is all your all your bio stuff under

01:19:33

the this lab with Mike Levin, or is there are there other biobets too? Because, like, you've talked to me about

the this lab with Mike Levin, or is there are there other biobets too? Because, like, you've talked to me about

01:19:39

you know, at that dinner, we were talking about,

you know, at that dinner, we were talking about,

01:19:41

I don't know, like, pregnancy or something like that. And you said something kind of in passing, you're like, yeah, like, in the next, I don't know,

I don't know, like, pregnancy or something like that. And you said something kind of in passing, you're like, yeah, like, in the next, I don't know,

01:19:49

at ten years,

at ten years,

01:19:50

you know,

you know,

01:19:52

you know, you'll women may not need to birth a baby. Like, you know, you'll be able to just essentially grow a baby.

you know, you'll women may not need to birth a baby. Like, you know, you'll be able to just essentially grow a baby.

01:19:58

And I was like, what?

And I was like, what?

01:20:00

So, like, advertise. Talking about that. How cool would it be if you could see, like, a bee burrowing in, like, a fish tank,

So, like, advertise. Talking about that. How cool would it be if you could see, like, a bee burrowing in, like, a fish tank,

01:20:06

And all you have to do is I could swab your mouth

And all you have to do is I could swab your mouth

01:20:09

and swab my mouth, put it in the machine, and then a bead, you will start to grow out of it. You know, there's no Let's just get the genetic material, no sperm and egg. No sperm, no egg. Just raw genetic material, and,

and swab my mouth, put it in the machine, and then a bead, you will start to grow out of it. You know, there's no Let's just get the genetic material, no sperm and egg. No sperm, no egg. Just raw genetic material, and,

01:20:24

Yeah. I think that will eventually be in the future. I don't think that's gonna be the next ten years, probably not even the next twenty years, but I I have ran odd use like that this. I think how cool would it be to find who's doing that research? And and if if I find people

Yeah. I think that will eventually be in the future. I don't think that's gonna be the next ten years, probably not even the next twenty years, but I I have ran odd use like that this. I think how cool would it be to find who's doing that research? And and if if I find people

01:20:40

who are, then I might support their work and fund it. If not, then I'll have I'll put together my own team and go try it ourselves. And it's likely gonna lose money and fail and not work, but, like, this is fun. Like, not everything has to be for the profit. I know your your whole pod is all about making money.

who are, then I might support their work and fund it. If not, then I'll have I'll put together my own team and go try it ourselves. And it's likely gonna lose money and fail and not work, but, like, this is fun. Like, not everything has to be for the profit. I know your your whole pod is all about making money.

01:20:59

And all the whole shows are about how to, like, compound fast flow and blah blah blah. But, like, why if we could have fun doing this? And by having fun and being mission oriented,

And all the whole shows are about how to, like, compound fast flow and blah blah blah. But, like, why if we could have fun doing this? And by having fun and being mission oriented,

01:21:11

you think figure. You think more grand about what the world could become one day, and then you're more likely to end up, like, Elon or whatever. Like, that's kind of the direction I'm going with. With my company here,

you think figure. You think more grand about what the world could become one day, and then you're more likely to end up, like, Elon or whatever. Like, that's kind of the direction I'm going with. With my company here,

01:21:22

which I realized it's not as sexy. It's not as compelling as saying,

which I realized it's not as sexy. It's not as compelling as saying,

01:21:27

you know, we're, you know, making money. Well You know, Maybe it's more, I don't know. Like, you know, when when Facebook was, going public, Mark Zuckerberg wrote this letter to, like, the potential shareholders that were gonna buy the stock. And it was, like, I think it's called the hacker way. It's a really great thing. You know, I know people are very skeptical of Zuck, but I think a lot of the stuff does is is pretty awesome, including this letter that he wrote. And he described the way that they do things. And one of the things he said is, like, you know, we don't build products to make money

you know, we're, you know, making money. Well You know, Maybe it's more, I don't know. Like, you know, when when Facebook was, going public, Mark Zuckerberg wrote this letter to, like, the potential shareholders that were gonna buy the stock. And it was, like, I think it's called the hacker way. It's a really great thing. You know, I know people are very skeptical of Zuck, but I think a lot of the stuff does is is pretty awesome, including this letter that he wrote. And he described the way that they do things. And one of the things he said is, like, you know, we don't build products to make money

01:21:55

you know, you know,

you know, you know,

01:21:57

we don't we don't build products to make great money. We we make money to build great products. Like, that is the core of what we're doing. I think Google had said a similar thing when they went public. And, you know, I don't think it's one or the other, but there is a first order bit and second order bit, meaning, like,

we don't we don't build products to make great money. We we make money to build great products. Like, that is the core of what we're doing. I think Google had said a similar thing when they went public. And, you know, I don't think it's one or the other, but there is a first order bit and second order bit, meaning, like,

01:22:13

if the first order bit is we are trying to fund bold science that might change everything,

if the first order bit is we are trying to fund bold science that might change everything,

01:22:19

even though it has a high likelihood of failure,

even though it has a high likelihood of failure,

01:22:22

even though it might take many years and a lot of money to get there.

even though it might take many years and a lot of money to get there.

01:22:25

But we think that advancing the research and ultimately trying to commercialize the research is the way.

But we think that advancing the research and ultimately trying to commercialize the research is the way.

01:22:32

That to me is the version of, like, we don't do that to make money. We make money so that we can do that.

That to me is the version of, like, we don't do that to make money. We make money so that we can do that.

01:22:37

So I think in a way, it's it's a lot more attractive and sexy or to to to most people. I think if they step back for a minute, a lot of the, like,

So I think in a way, it's it's a lot more attractive and sexy or to to to most people. I think if they step back for a minute, a lot of the, like,

01:22:45

money first comes from the insecurity. Right? Like,

money first comes from the insecurity. Right? Like,

01:22:49

just the the sort of wanting wanting that success, wanting that win under your bell wanting that safety in the bank account. You know, that's where a lot of that comes from. I don't think anybody really if they looked at their life would say, I'm so glad I devoted maximizing, you know, how much money I made. That's a very unlikely scenario. I think a lot of people would actually be more,

just the the sort of wanting wanting that success, wanting that win under your bell wanting that safety in the bank account. You know, that's where a lot of that comes from. I don't think anybody really if they looked at their life would say, I'm so glad I devoted maximizing, you know, how much money I made. That's a very unlikely scenario. I think a lot of people would actually be more,

01:23:08

inspired by, you know, the way you're doing things now, which is, like, fun, what's interesting, what gets me out of bed in the morning that's exciting that will, if done well,

inspired by, you know, the way you're doing things now, which is, like, fun, what's interesting, what gets me out of bed in the morning that's exciting that will, if done well,

01:23:18

can, like, you know, change change change the world, in the in the non cliche way because the stuff you're doing actually is more changed the world than, like,

can, like, you know, change change change the world, in the in the non cliche way because the stuff you're doing actually is more changed the world than, like,

01:23:26

than, you know, the ended arrows of the world where it's like, we're gonna the world one set of books at a time, and it's like, well, maybe. Maybe you're just doing bookkeeping, actually. Yeah. Exactly. How I felt. I I literally had this nagging feeling in my soul that I was wasting my key fability and I'm sure a lot of people feel that way.

than, you know, the ended arrows of the world where it's like, we're gonna the world one set of books at a time, and it's like, well, maybe. Maybe you're just doing bookkeeping, actually. Yeah. Exactly. How I felt. I I literally had this nagging feeling in my soul that I was wasting my key fability and I'm sure a lot of people feel that way.

01:23:44

Awesome. Well, sounds like we got another couple of conversations to have. Thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. People

Awesome. Well, sounds like we got another couple of conversations to have. Thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. People

01:23:49

go find you reach out to you. Where where where do you wanna direct people?

go find you reach out to you. Where where where do you wanna direct people?

01:23:53

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:23:55

I mean, I'm on, you know, my website's my way dot com,

I mean, I'm on, you know, my website's my way dot com,

01:23:59

and I've got a Twitter at Jesskamal,

and I've got a Twitter at Jesskamal,

01:24:02

at Jessmoth ish on Instagram.

at Jessmoth ish on Instagram.

01:24:05

And

And

01:24:06

if people all wanna reach out, you could,

if people all wanna reach out, you could,

01:24:10

either guess my email address, which is what I've done with Mark Benioff and everyone else. Really? That's a good filter, actually. You don't want the inbound. That's easy. You want the inbound of at least you're at least able to guess an email address. Smelt that large. Just like I haven't, like, I literally emailed, like, Mark at Salesforce marked that Benny off and Benny off, you know, like every per boutique that I could come up with, and most of them danced and one of them worked. So

either guess my email address, which is what I've done with Mark Benioff and everyone else. Really? That's a good filter, actually. You don't want the inbound. That's easy. You want the inbound of at least you're at least able to guess an email address. Smelt that large. Just like I haven't, like, I literally emailed, like, Mark at Salesforce marked that Benny off and Benny off, you know, like every per boutique that I could come up with, and most of them danced and one of them worked. So

01:24:37

That's awesome. Thanks for doing this. You're awesome. And, yeah, that's a great episode. Yeah. Great. Great time hanging out with you guys for having me.

That's awesome. Thanks for doing this. You're awesome. And, yeah, that's a great episode. Yeah. Great. Great time hanging out with you guys for having me.

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