00:07

You built

You built

00:08

a thing called the wordplay. Is it wordplay dot com? It's wordplay dot com. Right?

a thing called the wordplay. Is it wordplay dot com? It's wordplay dot com. Right?

00:13

By the way, you'll buy domain names. So you bought the hustle dot com for us. You bought me

By the way, you'll buy domain names. So you bought the hustle dot com for us. You bought me

00:17

copy that dot com. Thank you for that. I forgot to say thank you in person, but,

copy that dot com. Thank you for that. I forgot to say thank you in person, but,

00:22

so you buy, like, a lot of amazing domains, but you have word play dot com. And

so you buy, like, a lot of amazing domains, but you have word play dot com. And

00:26

Did you tweet that it was getting seven million users a week or three what was the number? So the I just wanted to check with the numbers. Okay. So just to kinda

Did you tweet that it was getting seven million users a week or three what was the number? So the I just wanted to check with the numbers. Okay. So just to kinda

00:36

placed the timeline in in frame. So November and December of last year twenty twenty one is when Wirtle took off. And January is when it really, kinda hit its I think close to its peak, and that's roughly when the New York Times acquired wordle.

placed the timeline in in frame. So November and December of last year twenty twenty one is when Wirtle took off. And January is when it really, kinda hit its I think close to its peak, and that's roughly when the New York Times acquired wordle.

00:51

And

And

00:52

couple things kind of bombing it. It was fine. I think it was, you know, great outcome for Josh Wirtle, but there were things that were kind of bothering me that were limitations in the game, and I was an avid player of the game. And now it's like, okay. Well, the New York Times has bought it. There's no way that anything's gonna happen for, like, years if ever. So that was kind of thing number one.

couple things kind of bombing it. It was fine. I think it was, you know, great outcome for Josh Wirtle, but there were things that were kind of bothering me that were limitations in the game, and I was an avid player of the game. And now it's like, okay. Well, the New York Times has bought it. There's no way that anything's gonna happen for, like, years if ever. So that was kind of thing number one.

01:10

Thing number two, like, it was, it had been a while since I had launched, like, some simple free thing publicly,

Thing number two, like, it was, it had been a while since I had launched, like, some simple free thing publicly,

01:16

hadn't gone through the process, and there were other things I wanted to learn

hadn't gone through the process, and there were other things I wanted to learn

01:19

it's like, oh, I wanna learn more about Vercel and Next JS and TypeScript and things like that. So it's like, okay. Well, this is a, excuse me. And then that intersected with the third thing, which was, like, the dominant variable in the equation, is my, son was taking a Python program in class. He's eleven. Right? He's going through this process.

it's like, oh, I wanna learn more about Vercel and Next JS and TypeScript and things like that. So it's like, okay. Well, this is a, excuse me. And then that intersected with the third thing, which was, like, the dominant variable in the equation, is my, son was taking a Python program in class. He's eleven. Right? He's going through this process.

01:35

And for him,

And for him,

01:37

It's, you know, still very abstract. He's learning programming. He enjoys everything involving technology and screens, but, it was abstract. So on a Saturday night, I said, okay. Well,

It's, you know, still very abstract. He's learning programming. He enjoys everything involving technology and screens, but, it was abstract. So on a Saturday night, I said, okay. Well,

01:46

Let me build something. When Python happens to be my language,

Let me build something. When Python happens to be my language,

01:50

build something so he can see because he plays world. He knows the game.

build something so he can see because he plays world. He knows the game.

01:54

And so

And so

01:56

I started on Saturday night with a deadline for Sunday that I'm gonna launch something with him tomorrow. We're gonna have Google analytics on it. So we're gonna launch it. I'm gonna launch it by tweeting it. And so he know he knows what social media is. Right? He's,

I started on Saturday night with a deadline for Sunday that I'm gonna launch something with him tomorrow. We're gonna have Google analytics on it. So we're gonna launch it. I'm gonna launch it by tweeting it. And so he know he knows what social media is. Right? He's,

02:07

you you know, so I'm like, oh, we've got this thing that didn't exist yesterday.

you you know, so I'm like, oh, we've got this thing that didn't exist yesterday.

02:12

I wrote the code over the course of last night in Python, the language that you're learning, and we're gonna launch it. And now you can see users coming in. Right? You can see And so now what I want him to have in his head is that when he as it through the course of his life, as he encounters problems that are solvable with software, which is a lot,

I wrote the code over the course of last night in Python, the language that you're learning, and we're gonna launch it. And now you can see users coming in. Right? You can see And so now what I want him to have in his head is that when he as it through the course of his life, as he encounters problems that are solvable with software, which is a lot,

02:28

Like, it's actually tactile for him. He's like, oh, I don't know I don't have the skills right now to do what, you know, dad just did, but I know it's possible.

Like, it's actually tactile for him. He's like, oh, I don't know I don't have the skills right now to do what, you know, dad just did, but I know it's possible.

02:36

I know it's possible because he did it in the span of twenty four hours. Right? So if I wanna go off and build a video game, I wanna go off and build some tool for my school, I wanna build some social network for my whatever it is,

I know it's possible because he did it in the span of twenty four hours. Right? So if I wanna go off and build a video game, I wanna go off and build some tool for my school, I wanna build some social network for my whatever it is,

02:46

it feels like now it's it's more approachable for him. It's got years ago before he'll get to that level. But, anyway, so those three things sorta came together, and so we lost it on that Sunday. This is, I think, in February or so, give or take.

it feels like now it's it's more approachable for him. It's got years ago before he'll get to that level. But, anyway, so those three things sorta came together, and so we lost it on that Sunday. This is, I think, in February or so, give or take.

02:58

And since then, it's had, like, forty five million games have been played. Nine and a half million people have come through it.

And since then, it's had, like, forty five million games have been played. Nine and a half million people have come through it.

03:05

Any given moment time right now, if I were to look at the Google analytics, it'd be two, three thousand people playing, like, right now.

Any given moment time right now, if I were to look at the Google analytics, it'd be two, three thousand people playing, like, right now.

03:11

Which how did it get so much traffic? Where did the traffic come from? Well, it helps I have a social media following. Right? I've got a million followers on LinkedIn. I've got three hundred thousand on Twitter, so there's that.

Which how did it get so much traffic? Where did the traffic come from? Well, it helps I have a social media following. Right? I've got a million followers on LinkedIn. I've got three hundred thousand on Twitter, so there's that.

03:21

There's some problems.

There's some problems.

03:22

That that's that's a lot, but that's not I I wouldn't have thought that yeah. Yeah. It's not enough for that. Is it how many users you think got from that?

That that's that's a lot, but that's not I I wouldn't have thought that yeah. Yeah. It's not enough for that. Is it how many users you think got from that?

03:32

In the early days. What was it big was it big right off the bat? Like, the first week it big? I know the first day, probably a bunch of people checked it out, but, like, I'm sure you posted it, and that was the big surge. So what was, like, the first week, roughly? Do you remember? The first week was probably

In the early days. What was it big was it big right off the bat? Like, the first week it big? I know the first day, probably a bunch of people checked it out, but, like, I'm sure you posted it, and that was the big surge. So what was, like, the first week, roughly? Do you remember? The first week was probably

03:46

maybe fifty to a hundred thousand. So it wasn't it wasn't a lot, but it was something.

maybe fifty to a hundred thousand. So it wasn't it wasn't a lot, but it was something.

03:50

But then is that once you kinda get into it, this is the

But then is that once you kinda get into it, this is the

03:53

you know, kind of power of iteration is that, oh, well, one of the things that I found missing in the original wordle was that it was a single player game. Like, you played and you played once a day, and that was it. So two big changes that we made in wordplay. One was it was unlimited play. You didn't you didn't have to play just once a day. And two, it it allowed you to challenge your friends. So you could say, oh, I just played this word. I solved it in four turns. So here's my score and send literally a simple link to anyone or a group on and this happens

you know, kind of power of iteration is that, oh, well, one of the things that I found missing in the original wordle was that it was a single player game. Like, you played and you played once a day, and that was it. So two big changes that we made in wordplay. One was it was unlimited play. You didn't you didn't have to play just once a day. And two, it it allowed you to challenge your friends. So you could say, oh, I just played this word. I solved it in four turns. So here's my score and send literally a simple link to anyone or a group on and this happens

04:21

tens of thousands of times. Right? Like someone will take a link. They just play. They're really proud of their score. And then their family, they can post it to their WhatsApp group. They can post it there, you know, wherever they want. And say, I invite you to, like, beat my score kind of thing.

tens of thousands of times. Right? Like someone will take a link. They just play. They're really proud of their score. And then their family, they can post it to their WhatsApp group. They can post it there, you know, wherever they want. And say, I invite you to, like, beat my score kind of thing.

04:34

And so that's the viral element. And so then as more people play, you can kinda track that as you might have as a Google Adelits event, and say, how many people how many times are people clicking that share button and issuing challenges to other people? And so that

And so that's the viral element. And so then as more people play, you can kinda track that as you might have as a Google Adelits event, and say, how many people how many times are people clicking that share button and issuing challenges to other people? And so that

04:45

once you can kinda get into something where there's a compounding effect on the user base. So as a user base grows, and so now the thing I'm fighting though, right, is that so that's happening. That's going well. But then the interest in Wirtle, in related games is waiting because everything has its kind of peak in its, in its

once you can kinda get into something where there's a compounding effect on the user base. So as a user base grows, and so now the thing I'm fighting though, right, is that so that's happening. That's going well. But then the interest in Wirtle, in related games is waiting because everything has its kind of peak in its, in its

05:02

And so but,

And so but,

05:03

it's been an interesting exercise. So we, on the kinda learning path, one of the things I hadn't done in a while is like, okay. Well, what's traffic actually worth Let's say I had to make a living on this thing or make the company, quote unquote, or project profitable. So I put Google AdSense on it, which is the easiest thing to do, and discovered that, like,

it's been an interesting exercise. So we, on the kinda learning path, one of the things I hadn't done in a while is like, okay. Well, what's traffic actually worth Let's say I had to make a living on this thing or make the company, quote unquote, or project profitable. So I put Google AdSense on it, which is the easiest thing to do, and discovered that, like,

05:21

If I weren't bothered by the fact that there would be two ads on the main game board page, if I were solving for monetization, it was like ninety thousand dollars a month.

If I weren't bothered by the fact that there would be two ads on the main game board page, if I were solving for monetization, it was like ninety thousand dollars a month.

05:28

The Google app that's facing the traffic. Yep. Wow. I thought you're gonna say less. Yeah. I thought he was gonna say, like, five grand a month. Put ninety grand a month and your You only have your only costs are hosting. Right?

The Google app that's facing the traffic. Yep. Wow. I thought you're gonna say less. Yeah. I thought he was gonna say, like, five grand a month. Put ninety grand a month and your You only have your only costs are hosting. Right?

05:40

Yeah. And and my time.

Yeah. And and my time.

05:42

Right. And

Right. And

05:44

first of all, sean, go to wordplay dot com and then go to like the about page. His about page is incredibly well written. It's wonderful copywriting. It's wonderful.

first of all, sean, go to wordplay dot com and then go to like the about page. His about page is incredibly well written. It's wonderful copywriting. It's wonderful.

05:51

You've got a wonderful voice. It says, I'll just read the first sentence, but it says, why would you do this? Or is it better yet? Why would I do this? That's a really good question.

You've got a wonderful voice. It says, I'll just read the first sentence, but it says, why would you do this? Or is it better yet? Why would I do this? That's a really good question.

06:01

My wife asked me the same question. And then you, like, go on to explain why it just you you're you're you're quite a good writer for also being like this an amazing engineer. Typically, those I wouldn't have a car writing course that Sean put on. You know that. Right? It's like I'm -- Right. -- I've been getting around here with my

My wife asked me the same question. And then you, like, go on to explain why it just you you're you're you're quite a good writer for also being like this an amazing engineer. Typically, those I wouldn't have a car writing course that Sean put on. You know that. Right? It's like I'm -- Right. -- I've been getting around here with my

06:16

calendar.

calendar.

06:17

I like to say, I taught Dharmesh everything he knows, even before he met me. I somehow caught him all that good stuff before he built HubSpot. What, what

I like to say, I taught Dharmesh everything he knows, even before he met me. I somehow caught him all that good stuff before he built HubSpot. What, what

06:25

he So this is making ninety grand a month maybe or about what do you It could. It's not. Right? There's no ads. I turned

he So this is making ninety grand a month maybe or about what do you It could. It's not. Right? There's no ads. I turned

06:32

ads off because that's It was telling you. Point. And people were asking me is like, Darmash, why do you have ads on this thing? I'm like, to learn. And, like, it's like, I've learned what I needed to learn, so I can

ads off because that's It was telling you. Point. And people were asking me is like, Darmash, why do you have ads on this thing? I'm like, to learn. And, like, it's like, I've learned what I needed to learn, so I can

06:41

was was tweeting in LinkedIn posting this on LinkedIn the only way you've got users. What do you think this could sell for right now? And is this the biggest

was was tweeting in LinkedIn posting this on LinkedIn the only way you've got users. What do you think this could sell for right now? And is this the biggest

06:49

side project you've ever created? Our our buddy tried to buy for Sui tried to buy it off you. Did he really? He he tweeted out. He's like, I'd like to buy this off you. I've, you know, built mobile games before. You know, he was, like, semi serious, at least. I don't know. I don't know if you talk to him or not, but Jack enough.

side project you've ever created? Our our buddy tried to buy for Sui tried to buy it off you. Did he really? He he tweeted out. He's like, I'd like to buy this off you. I've, you know, built mobile games before. You know, he was, like, semi serious, at least. I don't know. I don't know if you talk to him or not, but Jack enough.

07:05

What do you think he could sell? What do you think, like, if you cared, what do you think he could sell? For? Two or three million dollars, maybe. Right now that,

What do you think he could sell? What do you think, like, if you cared, what do you think he could sell? For? Two or three million dollars, maybe. Right now that,

07:12

let's say the ad revenue would go down to, like, fifty thousand or something like that because I haven't turned Google AdSense in a while. That's six hundred thousand dollars a year.

let's say the ad revenue would go down to, like, fifty thousand or something like that because I haven't turned Google AdSense in a while. That's six hundred thousand dollars a year.

07:20

Apply a five x multiple.

Apply a five x multiple.

07:22

So somewhere between two and ten million dollars would be my guess if, like, if that's what I was solving for. That's

So somewhere between two and ten million dollars would be my guess if, like, if that's what I was solving for. That's

07:28

And, is this the it was was posting it on LinkedIn and Twitter the only way that you got users, or did you do some other weird hacks I had my blog, had my it's like, I'm a big believer in, like, you know, what folks call, like, the flywheel. There's all these little things that are attached to the flywheel. Right? It's like, oh, LinkedIn helps a little bit, puts a little energy. Twitter does a little bit, and they have my blog and the email goes out, and there's like things that I sort of do.

And, is this the it was was posting it on LinkedIn and Twitter the only way that you got users, or did you do some other weird hacks I had my blog, had my it's like, I'm a big believer in, like, you know, what folks call, like, the flywheel. There's all these little things that are attached to the flywheel. Right? It's like, oh, LinkedIn helps a little bit, puts a little energy. Twitter does a little bit, and they have my blog and the email goes out, and there's like things that I sort of do.

07:52

Yeah. So it it helps, but it's like the hardest part is that cold start problem. Like, how do you get your first hundred thousand people? A hundred to a thousand people

Yeah. So it it helps, but it's like the hardest part is that cold start problem. Like, how do you get your first hundred thousand people? A hundred to a thousand people

08:01

and then it's the matter of, like, tracking the retention rate on those users. Do they come back? The other thing that's been interesting about Workplay as far as lesson learned,

and then it's the matter of, like, tracking the retention rate on those users. Do they come back? The other thing that's been interesting about Workplay as far as lesson learned,

08:08

is that, you know, when it started, the average time a user spent, according to Google was roughly four minutes, on the game. Okay.

is that, you know, when it started, the average time a user spent, according to Google was roughly four minutes, on the game. Okay.

08:15

In the early weeks, And now that number is at fourteen minutes. Is the average time a user spends, you know, across however many a thousand users come in a given day. So Right. What, and is this the biggest side project you ever created?

In the early weeks, And now that number is at fourteen minutes. Is the average time a user spends, you know, across however many a thousand users come in a given day. So Right. What, and is this the biggest side project you ever created?

08:28

It depends on how you measure it. So technically, no, not in terms of your select raw traffic pick. I've built graders and things like that before that, have done better. But what what have you built that? Did what side project have you built outside of HubSpot that gets more traffic that two or five people have. We did side projects. This is my first one,

It depends on how you measure it. So technically, no, not in terms of your select raw traffic pick. I've built graders and things like that before that, have done better. But what what have you built that? Did what side project have you built outside of HubSpot that gets more traffic that two or five people have. We did side projects. This is my first one,

08:47

that was, like, clearly because it was a game. Had it been anything other than a game, I would have rationalized some way to bring it into the hot spot umbrella because I like to have, like, all my eggs in that basket, but just given the the circumstances here, it didn't really make sense. And even now, like, what I'm thinking about,

that was, like, clearly because it was a game. Had it been anything other than a game, I would have rationalized some way to bring it into the hot spot umbrella because I like to have, like, all my eggs in that basket, but just given the the circumstances here, it didn't really make sense. And even now, like, what I'm thinking about,

09:02

doing a,

doing a,

09:03

kind of a marketing and sales related edition

kind of a marketing and sales related edition

09:06

of wordplay. Right? It's like, oh, the entire list of words, or do it based on MarTech companies? Like, okay. Do you know the the players in the space kind of thing? And then you can get sponsorships or whatever. Anyway, but,

of wordplay. Right? It's like, oh, the entire list of words, or do it based on MarTech companies? Like, okay. Do you know the the players in the space kind of thing? And then you can get sponsorships or whatever. Anyway, but,

09:16

yeah, yeah, website greater was the this kind of a project where it was like a free I'm I'm I really like low friction

yeah, yeah, website greater was the this kind of a project where it was like a free I'm I'm I really like low friction

09:24

things that people can come to the website, and this is why I were chatting yesterday was where I'm we're looking at flutter. This new development environment and language, well, darts the language, but flutter is the the app framework for building mobile apps across iOS and Android and things is the it's the what the cool new kids are learning. And he's like, no. Why would I ever wanna build a mobile app? That's, like, people have to download. I have to get approval from, you know, Apple to kind of post mine. Like, I I wanna, like, just do it, like, immediately. He's got, and he's right. It's like, okay. Anyway, so

things that people can come to the website, and this is why I were chatting yesterday was where I'm we're looking at flutter. This new development environment and language, well, darts the language, but flutter is the the app framework for building mobile apps across iOS and Android and things is the it's the what the cool new kids are learning. And he's like, no. Why would I ever wanna build a mobile app? That's, like, people have to download. I have to get approval from, you know, Apple to kind of post mine. Like, I I wanna, like, just do it, like, immediately. He's got, and he's right. It's like, okay. Anyway, so

09:52

That's the wordplay story. It's been, it's been a lot of fun. I've,

That's the wordplay story. It's been, it's been a lot of fun. I've,

09:55

and it's hard to know with these things, like,

and it's hard to know with these things, like,

09:58

like, where the road leaves. Like, Wirplay itself may or may not gonna connect back to other things, whatever, but the things I've learned through it, I think will. It's like, okay. Well, here's what it build this kind of thing. It's like, okay. Well, then I'm, yeah, I'm using it to,

like, where the road leaves. Like, Wirplay itself may or may not gonna connect back to other things, whatever, but the things I've learned through it, I think will. It's like, okay. Well, here's what it build this kind of thing. It's like, okay. Well, then I'm, yeah, I'm using it to,

10:11

play around with community. It's like, okay. Can I take the word play user base?

play around with community. It's like, okay. Can I take the word play user base?

10:15

What are the things they care about and build a community around word play, you know, using one of the existing kinda community platforms,

What are the things they care about and build a community around word play, you know, using one of the existing kinda community platforms,

10:21

and and see if that a thing. Right? It's like, okay. If you could aggregate people with like interests,

and and see if that a thing. Right? It's like, okay. If you could aggregate people with like interests,

10:26

that in itself has value. And I want it to be something that kinda self runs, but we'll see

that in itself has value. And I want it to be something that kinda self runs, but we'll see

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