00:00

It was really rough for quite quite an extended period of time. We couldn't pay our mortgage. We had cars repossessed. I've told this story before, but

It was really rough for quite quite an extended period of time. We couldn't pay our mortgage. We had cars repossessed. I've told this story before, but

00:08

It was so bad at one point,

It was so bad at one point,

00:10

that, you know, we didn't have enough money to pay for our our our,

that, you know, we didn't have enough money to pay for our our our,

00:14

garbage collection. So they took away our bins. We had to put our our garbage bags in the back of this beat up minivan that we had and look for, you know, kind of, bins like behind the grocery stores and stuff to, like, throw our garbage. I mean, it was pretty humiliating and and quite frankly pretty emasculating as somebody who's supposed to be, you know, head of household and taking care of shit. Like, I was unable

garbage collection. So they took away our bins. We had to put our our garbage bags in the back of this beat up minivan that we had and look for, you know, kind of, bins like behind the grocery stores and stuff to, like, throw our garbage. I mean, it was pretty humiliating and and quite frankly pretty emasculating as somebody who's supposed to be, you know, head of household and taking care of shit. Like, I was unable

00:37

to make sure that my house was in order. And so we went through a really rough period of time, and

to make sure that my house was in order. And so we went through a really rough period of time, and

00:43

it was not clear that we were gonna be able to kind of persevere.

it was not clear that we were gonna be able to kind of persevere.

00:54

Okay. So, let's give you a little intro here. So we got,

Okay. So, let's give you a little intro here. So we got,

00:58

Rich Roll, which is,

Rich Roll, which is,

01:00

an amazing name. First of all, I'm sure you get that a bunch.

an amazing name. First of all, I'm sure you get that a bunch.

01:04

I feel like the Rick roll kind of stepped down your corner a little bit. Do you get is that a problem for you? A little bit, man. Not a day goes by where, you know, I'm not on the receiving end of some kind of BS about that that. Yeah. Exactly.

I feel like the Rick roll kind of stepped down your corner a little bit. Do you get is that a problem for you? A little bit, man. Not a day goes by where, you know, I'm not on the receiving end of some kind of BS about that that. Yeah. Exactly.

01:19

And but that is your real name. Rich Roll. That is, like, not like a stage name.

And but that is your real name. Rich Roll. That is, like, not like a stage name.

01:24

God given name. Okay. Wow. My parents are are, you know, behind here. So,

God given name. Okay. Wow. My parents are are, you know, behind here. So,

01:30

and you have a very, very interesting story. So I'm gonna give the, like, very layman

and you have a very, very interesting story. So I'm gonna give the, like, very layman

01:35

version of the story.

version of the story.

01:37

And then we I want what I wanna do is two things. I wanna dive in and actually hear from you a little bit more about the interesting bits of that story. As well as, you know, it's we are kind of like a we're a business podcast. And so what we'd like to talk about in general

And then we I want what I wanna do is two things. I wanna dive in and actually hear from you a little bit more about the interesting bits of that story. As well as, you know, it's we are kind of like a we're a business podcast. And so what we'd like to talk about in general

01:51

is

is

01:52

business opportunities.

business opportunities.

01:54

Sure. Sounds good. Alright. Cool.

Sure. Sounds good. Alright. Cool.

01:56

So your story is, as far as I know, is as follows. You

So your story is, as far as I know, is as follows. You

02:02

You're coming up all you were coming up on forty years old.

You're coming up all you were coming up on forty years old.

02:05

You were not in great shape. You're, I think, fifty pounds overweight is what you what you say, and you were, you know, decided to sort of make a change in your life. And now you are very, very well known

You were not in great shape. You're, I think, fifty pounds overweight is what you what you say, and you were, you know, decided to sort of make a change in your life. And now you are very, very well known

02:15

as a

as a

02:16

endurance athlete

endurance athlete

02:18

who has a plant powered or vegan diet.

who has a plant powered or vegan diet.

02:21

And,

And,

02:22

you have done some kind of amazing things in the endurance

you have done some kind of amazing things in the endurance

02:26

you know, competitive endurance field. I think you were named one of the twenty five fittest men,

you know, competitive endurance field. I think you were named one of the twenty five fittest men,

02:31

on the planet by men's fitness, which is a pretty dope honor.

on the planet by men's fitness, which is a pretty dope honor.

02:35

And so that is your kind of that's your claim to fame. Did I did I get that right?

And so that is your kind of that's your claim to fame. Did I did I get that right?

02:40

Yeah. I think that's that's fairly accurate. That's probably how I'm best known, although I haven't raced in a number of years, and I've sort of

Yeah. I think that's that's fairly accurate. That's probably how I'm best known, although I haven't raced in a number of years, and I've sort of

02:49

graduated or I'm attempting to kind of graduate

graduated or I'm attempting to kind of graduate

02:52

from the limiting parameters of being known as like a vegan endurance athlete. And the podcast is a big piece of that which we can get into, but I would say that's a fair assessment of how kind of most people think of me and

from the limiting parameters of being known as like a vegan endurance athlete. And the podcast is a big piece of that which we can get into, but I would say that's a fair assessment of how kind of most people think of me and

03:06

and my association.

and my association.

03:07

And what would be the shift? So if you were known as, like, this guy who went from, I guess, the full story is entertainment lawyer,

And what would be the shift? So if you were known as, like, this guy who went from, I guess, the full story is entertainment lawyer,

03:15

you know, struggle with sort of drugs, alcohol, get sober, then you're but then you're overcompensating

you know, struggle with sort of drugs, alcohol, get sober, then you're but then you're overcompensating

03:20

by eating not so great. And then you have this kind of moment. You're, you know, you're sort of,

by eating not so great. And then you have this kind of moment. You're, you know, you're sort of,

03:26

your you know, come to Jesus moment or whatever where you're like, okay. I'm gonna make a change. You make this lifestyle change. You become this well known,

your you know, come to Jesus moment or whatever where you're like, okay. I'm gonna make a change. You make this lifestyle change. You become this well known,

03:33

endurance athlete who's doing it in a way that's a typical issue. I think you're the first vegan to complete a ultra endurance event, which is like some crazy three hundred mile,

endurance athlete who's doing it in a way that's a typical issue. I think you're the first vegan to complete a ultra endurance event, which is like some crazy three hundred mile,

03:43

three hundred mile type of event.

three hundred mile type of event.

03:45

Where you're running, you're biking, you're swimming, you're doing all that good stuff. And now

Where you're running, you're biking, you're swimming, you're doing all that good stuff. And now

03:49

you have businesses that are around this. Right? So you have a a meal planning business, you have

you have businesses that are around this. Right? So you have a a meal planning business, you have

03:54

It's kind of like a whole lifestyle,

It's kind of like a whole lifestyle,

03:56

and brand and business around this stuff. And so

and brand and business around this stuff. And so

03:59

going from, I'm known for competing in this, what do you think you're do you wanna be known for now? What what do you think is is that transition?

going from, I'm known for competing in this, what do you think you're do you wanna be known for now? What what do you think is is that transition?

04:07

Yeah. It's a great question. I mean, I think that

Yeah. It's a great question. I mean, I think that

04:11

you know, just kind of fill in the gaps on the story. I do have a history of,

you know, just kind of fill in the gaps on the story. I do have a history of,

04:16

you know, alcoholism.

you know, alcoholism.

04:17

That's a big part of story alcoholism and recovery that predated

That's a big part of story alcoholism and recovery that predated

04:21

the kind of next chapter, which was,

the kind of next chapter, which was,

04:24

sort of middle age malaise and reaching another kind of Rubicon with how I was living my life and making a secondary transition into a healthy lifestyle and that led me into the ultra endurance world and I was able to distinguish myself in that world,

sort of middle age malaise and reaching another kind of Rubicon with how I was living my life and making a secondary transition into a healthy lifestyle and that led me into the ultra endurance world and I was able to distinguish myself in that world,

04:40

as a middle aged athlete, but also as somebody who was doing it plant based. And that garnered a fair amount of media attention and put me in a position to do something with it. And the first thing that I did was write a book.

as a middle aged athlete, but also as somebody who was doing it plant based. And that garnered a fair amount of media attention and put me in a position to do something with it. And the first thing that I did was write a book.

04:52

It came out it came out almost exactly ten years ago. It was called finding Ultra. And it's essentially a memoir, but it also has aspects of being a bit of a lifestyle

It came out it came out almost exactly ten years ago. It was called finding Ultra. And it's essentially a memoir, but it also has aspects of being a bit of a lifestyle

05:01

guide.

guide.

05:01

And that kind of put me on the map in a public way.

And that kind of put me on the map in a public way.

05:06

And in the wake of that book coming out, it became about like, okay,

And in the wake of that book coming out, it became about like, okay,

05:10

That was great. I got, you know, an okay advance for that, but I've got four kids. How am I gonna make a living?

That was great. I got, you know, an okay advance for that, but I've got four kids. How am I gonna make a living?

05:17

Sort of propagating

Sort of propagating

05:19

these ideas or continuing the conversation that that book began because up to that point, I was still a practicing attorney.

these ideas or continuing the conversation that that book began because up to that point, I was still a practicing attorney.

05:26

And so the transition

And so the transition

05:28

out of the legal world into doing what I do today,

out of the legal world into doing what I do today,

05:33

I would say is been a very inelegant

I would say is been a very inelegant

05:35

and protracted process.

and protracted process.

05:38

I'm not a naturally,

I'm not a naturally,

05:40

inclined entrepreneur. I was reared in a in in a in a much more kind of traditional conservative environment,

inclined entrepreneur. I was reared in a in in a in a much more kind of traditional conservative environment,

05:47

education first, get the good job, get into the good grad school, the whole bit,

education first, get the good job, get into the good grad school, the whole bit,

05:52

and hence, you know, became a lawyer, which is, you know, very much a safety seeking type of career. So my mindset and my thinking has never been oriented around

and hence, you know, became a lawyer, which is, you know, very much a safety seeking type of career. So my mindset and my thinking has never been oriented around

06:03

entrepreneurship whatsoever.

entrepreneurship whatsoever.

06:05

But I was suddenly found myself in the position where

But I was suddenly found myself in the position where

06:08

being a lawyer

being a lawyer

06:10

felt,

felt,

06:11

untenable

untenable

06:12

given all these experiences that I had, and I was given this gift,

given all these experiences that I had, and I was given this gift,

06:16

this opportunity to do something different, and it really challenged me to,

this opportunity to do something different, and it really challenged me to,

06:21

upend,

upend,

06:22

all of my kind of built in proclivities

all of my kind of built in proclivities

06:26

around safety seeking and kind of doing,

around safety seeking and kind of doing,

06:29

kind of following

kind of following

06:31

this

this

06:33

you know, path that society smiles upon. Like, even though I went to Stanford and was surrounded by entrepreneurship and the explosion of Silicon Valley, for some reason, that never rubbed off on me.

you know, path that society smiles upon. Like, even though I went to Stanford and was surrounded by entrepreneurship and the explosion of Silicon Valley, for some reason, that never rubbed off on me.

06:45

And I and and and now I was in a position of like, okay. I need to

And I and and and now I was in a position of like, okay. I need to

06:50

kind of shed the limitations of how I'd live my life to date and really start to think about how to do this differently. And because

kind of shed the limitations of how I'd live my life to date and really start to think about how to do this differently. And because

06:59

it's not my

it's not my

07:00

natural state,

natural state,

07:02

I sought out mentors, and I found one mentor in particular who's been absolutely

I sought out mentors, and I found one mentor in particular who's been absolutely

07:08

instrumental

instrumental

07:09

in helping me forge this new path. His name is Greg Annzalone,

in helping me forge this new path. His name is Greg Annzalone,

07:13

and he's CEO of a company out here near where I live called sideshow, and Sideshow

and he's CEO of a company out here near where I live called sideshow, and Sideshow

07:18

is

is

07:19

a pop culture collectibles company.

a pop culture collectibles company.

07:22

They create,

They create,

07:25

figurines, like limited edition,

figurines, like limited edition,

07:28

very,

very,

07:29

finely crafted,

finely crafted,

07:32

figures from pop culture. So from the Marvel movies and Star Wars, etcetera, everything from Lifesize,

figures from pop culture. So from the Marvel movies and Star Wars, etcetera, everything from Lifesize,

07:39

C three c c three POs to Darth Vaters and Thor and the like. And he grew that company from

C three c c three POs to Darth Vaters and Thor and the like. And he grew that company from

07:47

a couple artisans in a garage to now a very large enterprise that employs hundreds and hundreds of people. And if you were to go to Comiccon, they have the second biggest booth at Comiccon second only to Marvel, and there's a whole subculture

a couple artisans in a garage to now a very large enterprise that employs hundreds and hundreds of people. And if you were to go to Comiccon, they have the second biggest booth at Comiccon second only to Marvel, and there's a whole subculture

08:01

of people who are fanatic

of people who are fanatic

08:03

collectors of what sideshow produces.

collectors of what sideshow produces.

08:05

My point being that Greg is, a natural entrepreneur. He's been very successful in a number of businesses,

My point being that Greg is, a natural entrepreneur. He's been very successful in a number of businesses,

08:11

and he began to mentor

and he began to mentor

08:14

and retrain the way that I was thinking about my life and really helped me create structures around what I was doing and strategies

and retrain the way that I was thinking about my life and really helped me create structures around what I was doing and strategies

08:22

In order to build a foundation upon which we could create a sustainable business that would provide for my family.

In order to build a foundation upon which we could create a sustainable business that would provide for my family.

08:30

The book was the first piece in that. In the wake of the book coming out and in an effort to continue the conversation that that book began,

The book was the first piece in that. In the wake of the book coming out and in an effort to continue the conversation that that book began,

08:37

I launched the podcast almost ten years ago. So

I launched the podcast almost ten years ago. So

08:41

I wasn't a first mover in the podcast space, but I definitely

I wasn't a first mover in the podcast space, but I definitely

08:45

was an early adopter, and it was a medium

was an early adopter, and it was a medium

08:48

that I had fallen in love with. As an athlete, I'd spent so many hours, so much time alone on the bike and running

that I had fallen in love with. As an athlete, I'd spent so many hours, so much time alone on the bike and running

08:56

listening to podcasts when it was very difficult

listening to podcasts when it was very difficult

08:58

to even acquire an episode. It was pre iPhone. So you had to Go to your desktop or your laptop and download

to even acquire an episode. It was pre iPhone. So you had to Go to your desktop or your laptop and download

09:07

a series of MP threes and then bounce those MP threes to your iPad and create playlists.

a series of MP threes and then bounce those MP threes to your iPad and create playlists.

09:12

And I was doing this before anyone else I knew was listening to podcasts and was discovering,

And I was doing this before anyone else I knew was listening to podcasts and was discovering,

09:18

as we're all discovering now, how much value there is. In this medium. And so with that love, and I think a lot of,

as we're all discovering now, how much value there is. In this medium. And so with that love, and I think a lot of,

09:28

not practice, but I was very acclimated to

not practice, but I was very acclimated to

09:31

what a good podcast could be because as a listener, I'd consume so much of this media,

what a good podcast could be because as a listener, I'd consume so much of this media,

09:36

that when I started mine, I felt like I

that when I started mine, I felt like I

09:39

was in a situation where I had something to say. I knew some interesting people in my life. And importantly, there wasn't any competition at the time. Like, people were not clamoring to start podcasts in in two thousand twelve. I think, you know, aside from,

was in a situation where I had something to say. I knew some interesting people in my life. And importantly, there wasn't any competition at the time. Like, people were not clamoring to start podcasts in in two thousand twelve. I think, you know, aside from,

09:55

Adam Corolla and Kevin Smith and and maybe Joe Rogen, nobody was even monetizing

Adam Corolla and Kevin Smith and and maybe Joe Rogen, nobody was even monetizing

10:01

these things. So it was less about it being a business proposition,

these things. So it was less about it being a business proposition,

10:06

and more about,

and more about,

10:08

an opportunity to continue to build a platform

an opportunity to continue to build a platform

10:11

with the trust that at some point,

with the trust that at some point,

10:13

something could come out of this that could sustain my family financially. And so I started the podcast. I immediately was able to rise to the top of the iTunes rankings because as I mentioned earlier, there was no competition at the time. And in the health and fitness and wellness space, there really wasn't very

something could come out of this that could sustain my family financially. And so I started the podcast. I immediately was able to rise to the top of the iTunes rankings because as I mentioned earlier, there was no competition at the time. And in the health and fitness and wellness space, there really wasn't very

10:33

much good content at the time. So From that, I was able to build an audience slowly and gradually over time and did the podcast for a number of years before monetization

much good content at the time. So From that, I was able to build an audience slowly and gradually over time and did the podcast for a number of years before monetization

10:44

was even anything to to consider.

was even anything to to consider.

10:48

And now, of course, it's it's, you know, it's doing incredibly well. But again, that wasn't really the plan. But because the podcast has become and continues to this day to be the tip of the spear, in terms of all the things that I do.

And now, of course, it's it's, you know, it's doing incredibly well. But again, that wasn't really the plan. But because the podcast has become and continues to this day to be the tip of the spear, in terms of all the things that I do.

11:03

It's been the most profitable, not just financially,

It's been the most profitable, not just financially,

11:06

but also in terms of engaging the most number of people around the ideas that that I care about. And this has been a very long winded way of getting to the point of answering your question, which is how do you wanna be seen today?

but also in terms of engaging the most number of people around the ideas that that I care about. And this has been a very long winded way of getting to the point of answering your question, which is how do you wanna be seen today?

11:19

Very early on. I I made a decision from actually, from the outset of the podcast that I didn't want it to be a podcast about specifically

Very early on. I I made a decision from actually, from the outset of the podcast that I didn't want it to be a podcast about specifically

11:29

just being plant based or being an ass fleet. I didn't want it to be a triathlon podcast. I wanted to cast a wide net, which is why I named the podcast after my name because I wasn't sure if I was gonna continue to do it where my interests might find me, but I knew that I probably wasn't gonna change my name. So I just did the easy thing and named it after myself,

just being plant based or being an ass fleet. I didn't want it to be a triathlon podcast. I wanted to cast a wide net, which is why I named the podcast after my name because I wasn't sure if I was gonna continue to do it where my interests might find me, but I knew that I probably wasn't gonna change my name. So I just did the easy thing and named it after myself,

11:51

and it's allowed me the flexibility

and it's allowed me the flexibility

11:53

to move in whatever direction inspires me. And so

to move in whatever direction inspires me. And so

11:58

Although I would say that the core kind of themes of the podcast are around personal transformation,

Although I would say that the core kind of themes of the podcast are around personal transformation,

12:04

healthy lifestyle eating, and, of course,

healthy lifestyle eating, and, of course,

12:08

fitness running, you know, the sports that that that I care about, it's also

fitness running, you know, the sports that that that I care about, it's also

12:12

allowed me to

allowed me to

12:14

host conversations with just a wide diversity of people. Who I can continue to grow from,

host conversations with just a wide diversity of people. Who I can continue to grow from,

12:20

in other ways beyond like how I've been traditionally

in other ways beyond like how I've been traditionally

12:25

known because for me, this is my growth accelerator. And I think we're all here on the planet to grow in our various ways and overcome our challenges. And so it's given me the opportunity to sit down with people who can help me grow and work through my, you know, kind of limiters in in in all areas of life. And so as a result,

known because for me, this is my growth accelerator. And I think we're all here on the planet to grow in our various ways and overcome our challenges. And so it's given me the opportunity to sit down with people who can help me grow and work through my, you know, kind of limiters in in in all areas of life. And so as a result,

12:47

it's allowed the audience,

it's allowed the audience,

12:50

to be very diverse. Although there are plenty of kind of, you know, vegans and runners and stuff like that. It's really brought in all walks of life, and I think has been

to be very diverse. Although there are plenty of kind of, you know, vegans and runners and stuff like that. It's really brought in all walks of life, and I think has been

13:00

a big reason why the podcast has continued to grow and flourish because it's not limited to one specific theme, topic, or kind of, heading.

a big reason why the podcast has continued to grow and flourish because it's not limited to one specific theme, topic, or kind of, heading.

13:10

And how big is it today? So I see on YouTube, maybe like seven hundred thousand subscribers there,

And how big is it today? So I see on YouTube, maybe like seven hundred thousand subscribers there,

13:17

podcasts. I'm not sure what that would be. Is that I don't know if it's bigger or smaller than the than the YouTube stuff. And then the top videos, like, you know, David Goggins, Uberman, those would get five to ten million views on YouTube, which are great. Kinda like the, you know, the perfect storm of, like, overlap of interest, the right guest who already has their own audience,

podcasts. I'm not sure what that would be. Is that I don't know if it's bigger or smaller than the than the YouTube stuff. And then the top videos, like, you know, David Goggins, Uberman, those would get five to ten million views on YouTube, which are great. Kinda like the, you know, the perfect storm of, like, overlap of interest, the right guest who already has their own audience,

13:35

people search for their name in YouTube, that sort of thing. So how big is the give us a sense of how big the the kind of the the content side has gotten to now.

people search for their name in YouTube, that sort of thing. So how big is the give us a sense of how big the the kind of the the content side has gotten to now.

13:43

Yeah. So

Yeah. So

13:44

YouTube has been something that that we're relatively new to. I think we started, filming the podcast in earnest, maybe two and a half three years ago at this point.

YouTube has been something that that we're relatively new to. I think we started, filming the podcast in earnest, maybe two and a half three years ago at this point.

13:54

And like you said, we have outlier videos like the Huberman,

And like you said, we have outlier videos like the Huberman,

13:58

initial Huberman podcast I did. I think has, like, eleven million views. Some of the Goggins interviews have a lot of views, but a lot of them don't have that many views. So it's very hit or miss. And as you know,

initial Huberman podcast I did. I think has, like, eleven million views. Some of the Goggins interviews have a lot of views, but a lot of them don't have that many views. So it's very hit or miss. And as you know,

14:09

YouTube is all about the algorithm.

YouTube is all about the algorithm.

14:11

And what's great about YouTube is that it's amazing at discovery. So it allows people who are not subscribers or people who are not familiar with what you're doing to kind of by happenstance stumble onto your content and and allows you to then bring them into your universe.

And what's great about YouTube is that it's amazing at discovery. So it allows people who are not subscribers or people who are not familiar with what you're doing to kind of by happenstance stumble onto your content and and allows you to then bring them into your universe.

14:27

But YouTube is still a very small piece in our content engine. The vast majority of our audience is audio only. So through Apple podcasts,

But YouTube is still a very small piece in our content engine. The vast majority of our audience is audio only. So through Apple podcasts,

14:37

Spotify is a very small, very tiny of our audience. So the vast majority are people who are listening on Apple devices or on,

Spotify is a very small, very tiny of our audience. So the vast majority are people who are listening on Apple devices or on,

14:46

platforms that are out side of Spotify and YouTube. But I believe in YouTube, because even if somebody doesn't watch our video,

platforms that are out side of Spotify and YouTube. But I believe in YouTube, because even if somebody doesn't watch our video,

14:53

that thumbnail might come across their screen and almost works as a billboard to enhance visibility,

that thumbnail might come across their screen and almost works as a billboard to enhance visibility,

15:01

of of what we're doing. And so we continue to invest and double down in YouTube, although the core of what we're doing doing really is,

of of what we're doing. And so we continue to invest and double down in YouTube, although the core of what we're doing doing really is,

15:09

audio first, at least now. I probably I'd say it's probably

audio first, at least now. I probably I'd say it's probably

15:12

anywhere from ninety to ninety five percent of our audience.

anywhere from ninety to ninety five percent of our audience.

15:16

Oh, wow. Okay. So this podcast is

Oh, wow. Okay. So this podcast is

15:19

probably very huge then. So, like, you know, probably getting,

probably very huge then. So, like, you know, probably getting,

15:22

I don't know, half a million

I don't know, half a million

15:24

you know, listeners per per thing then, something like that? Yeah. It's it's it's in that range. I mean, as you know, like on an audio, it's fairly predictable,

you know, listeners per per thing then, something like that? Yeah. It's it's it's in that range. I mean, as you know, like on an audio, it's fairly predictable,

15:33

how large the audience is gonna be and how many people are gonna listen.

how large the audience is gonna be and how many people are gonna listen.

15:37

You know, there's gonna be some variation there, but it falls within a tight range whereas in YouTube, it's just all over the map because

You know, there's gonna be some variation there, but it falls within a tight range whereas in YouTube, it's just all over the map because

15:44

the algorithm gods can smile on you as they did with Hebrew Men, and it goes wild. That doesn't happen in audio.

the algorithm gods can smile on you as they did with Hebrew Men, and it goes wild. That doesn't happen in audio.

15:50

So, yeah, I mean, you're correct. It's a it's about in that range on average. And so, so I have this theory with content, which is that,

So, yeah, I mean, you're correct. It's a it's about in that range on average. And so, so I have this theory with content, which is that,

15:58

people will ask me a lot like, okay, you know, how do I do a better do I do a good podcast? How do I grow my content? How do I grow my audience?

people will ask me a lot like, okay, you know, how do I do a better do I do a good podcast? How do I grow my content? How do I grow my audience?

16:05

And I say, well, there's some, like, you know, they're kind of looking for the what do I write in my title or thumbnail or, like, you know, something there? And there's definitely things that are better or worse.

And I say, well, there's some, like, you know, they're kind of looking for the what do I write in my title or thumbnail or, like, you know, something there? And there's definitely things that are better or worse.

16:14

But I would say you're an example

But I would say you're an example

16:17

of

of

16:18

the core fundamental of what works. So let me say three I'm just gonna point out three things of what you gave a kind of good story. I'm gonna point out three highlights that that of why this worked. Number one, you were early to a platform that ended up being big.

the core fundamental of what works. So let me say three I'm just gonna point out three things of what you gave a kind of good story. I'm gonna point out three highlights that that of why this worked. Number one, you were early to a platform that ended up being big.

16:32

If you're late to a big platform, it's tough. If you're early to a platform that never gets big, also no Bueno. You gotta have early to a platform that's big. That is one of the best you could do to increase your odds of success. You were basically listening to podcasts just when it was RSS, you know, only or whatever. Maybe even, you know, there's no players or whatever.

If you're late to a big platform, it's tough. If you're early to a platform that never gets big, also no Bueno. You gotta have early to a platform that's big. That is one of the best you could do to increase your odds of success. You were basically listening to podcasts just when it was RSS, you know, only or whatever. Maybe even, you know, there's no players or whatever.

16:51

Okay. So the second thing is

Okay. So the second thing is

16:54

you,

you,

16:55

you have a, you had a niche where you built authority

you have a, you had a niche where you built authority

16:59

So, like, let's say, initially, it might have been vegan lifestyle or endurance training as a vegan, something like that. Right? Like, the overlap between two

So, like, let's say, initially, it might have been vegan lifestyle or endurance training as a vegan, something like that. Right? Like, the overlap between two

17:07

hyper passionate niches, which is like, you know, plant based lifestyle and, you know, performance,

hyper passionate niches, which is like, you know, plant based lifestyle and, you know, performance,

17:12

you know, athletic performance.

you know, athletic performance.

17:14

And so that overlap was like a niche that you could kind of dominate and own and become the authority there because there just weren't that many people who were doing it, you know, in general. Forget it even about podcasting.

And so that overlap was like a niche that you could kind of dominate and own and become the authority there because there just weren't that many people who were doing it, you know, in general. Forget it even about podcasting.

17:23

Now on top of that, in addition to the kind of addiction recovery piece is also a core aspect of that as well. And so that's that's what's gonna go next, which is I think you have an innate

Now on top of that, in addition to the kind of addiction recovery piece is also a core aspect of that as well. And so that's that's what's gonna go next, which is I think you have an innate

17:34

understanding that

understanding that

17:36

story

story

17:37

is what gets people hooked.

is what gets people hooked.

17:39

Like, for example, when you came on, I was kinda describing you with just like some labels, like, serious, some descriptors. You've accomplished this. You're known for this, and you were like,

Like, for example, when you came on, I was kinda describing you with just like some labels, like, serious, some descriptors. You've accomplished this. You're known for this, and you were like,

17:49

you brought it back to story. What's a story? A story is some transformation or change. You know, the protagonist, the hero goes through something,

you brought it back to story. What's a story? A story is some transformation or change. You know, the protagonist, the hero goes through something,

17:57

and they started one way, they changed into another way. They they started thinking one thing, and then they realized another. They started single. They ended up happy and love. Right? That's the basis of all stories. Some

and they started one way, they changed into another way. They they started thinking one thing, and then they realized another. They started single. They ended up happy and love. Right? That's the basis of all stories. Some

18:06

change, some transformation.

change, some transformation.

18:08

And I think as I heard you talk about, like, whether it was from

And I think as I heard you talk about, like, whether it was from

18:12

risk averse lawyer

risk averse lawyer

18:13

to reluctant entrepreneur who learned to shed that limitation. That's change. You know, weed eater to plant eater change.

to reluctant entrepreneur who learned to shed that limitation. That's change. You know, weed eater to plant eater change.

18:22

Overweight to, you know, endurance athlete change. And so I think you're really good at framing change because

Overweight to, you know, endurance athlete change. And so I think you're really good at framing change because

18:29

the fundamental thing people want more than learning how to, you know, whatever swim a hundred miles is, like,

the fundamental thing people want more than learning how to, you know, whatever swim a hundred miles is, like,

18:35

everybody, a broader thing is everybody wants to remove some of their limitations and hit that transformation that they crave, whatever that is, and they could take inspiration and acknowledge from your story. So I think that's another one.

everybody, a broader thing is everybody wants to remove some of their limitations and hit that transformation that they crave, whatever that is, and they could take inspiration and acknowledge from your story. So I think that's another one.

18:47

The last little element I like that you said is I think you have what I call the red pill, which is,

The last little element I like that you said is I think you have what I call the red pill, which is,

18:53

you

you

18:54

have, opinions

have, opinions

18:56

or beliefs that might be might run counter to, like, the consensus opinion. Right? I think In general,

or beliefs that might be might run counter to, like, the consensus opinion. Right? I think In general,

19:03

vegans have a a

vegans have a a

19:05

belief about diet and lifestyle that is counter to the mainstream behavior.

belief about diet and lifestyle that is counter to the mainstream behavior.

19:10

And so when you have that, like, you know, that point of view that is a different thing,

And so when you have that, like, you know, that point of view that is a different thing,

19:15

it grabs people's attention and it gets them hooked. And the people who, for whom that resonates,

it grabs people's attention and it gets them hooked. And the people who, for whom that resonates,

19:19

it kind of like, you know, they become attracted to that. So I don't know. I'm not saying you can potentially architect of these things, but

it kind of like, you know, they become attracted to that. So I don't know. I'm not saying you can potentially architect of these things, but

19:26

just out of your story about how you built this pretty remarkable kind of content franchise.

just out of your story about how you built this pretty remarkable kind of content franchise.

19:31

I just wanted to point out some of those elements that I've seen be common elements for people. What do you think of some of those?

I just wanted to point out some of those elements that I've seen be common elements for people. What do you think of some of those?

19:37

Yeah. I mean, I think that's fairly accurate in astute. The only the only one that I would bristle out a little bit is the red pole red pill thing. I think it is Of course, like to be vegan and to be an athlete, there is something contrarian about that.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's fairly accurate in astute. The only the only one that I would bristle out a little bit is the red pole red pill thing. I think it is Of course, like to be vegan and to be an athlete, there is something contrarian about that.

19:51

The only kind of nuance that I would add to that is that I I'm not somebody who's out there seeking to kind of game the system by being contrarian. I'm not in yeah. I'm not inviting controversy or trying to get into debates with people. I share my experience, and I'm always very careful, and this is something that I've learned in recovery.

The only kind of nuance that I would add to that is that I I'm not somebody who's out there seeking to kind of game the system by being contrarian. I'm not in yeah. I'm not inviting controversy or trying to get into debates with people. I share my experience, and I'm always very careful, and this is something that I've learned in recovery.

20:09

To not be overtly telling people what to do or how to live their lives.

To not be overtly telling people what to do or how to live their lives.

20:14

It's always back to story as you point out. Because I think that people learn through stories. You could tell people here are the five things you need to do, or you can have a guest on, who says here's the roadmap to achieving x y z, and I've just learned for myself and in terms of you know, how I've conducted this podcast over the years that although we can intellectualize

It's always back to story as you point out. Because I think that people learn through stories. You could tell people here are the five things you need to do, or you can have a guest on, who says here's the roadmap to achieving x y z, and I've just learned for myself and in terms of you know, how I've conducted this podcast over the years that although we can intellectualize

20:37

those answers or those principles,

those answers or those principles,

20:39

we're very,

we're very,

20:41

remiss in putting them into action unless we can emotionally attach with them. And that's where story comes in. And I think as content creators, we're all storytellers,

remiss in putting them into action unless we can emotionally attach with them. And that's where story comes in. And I think as content creators, we're all storytellers,

20:50

and it is our job to refine our ability

and it is our job to refine our ability

20:53

to tell a story well. And if we can do that and do it in a way that allows us to be

to tell a story well. And if we can do that and do it in a way that allows us to be

21:00

relatable and also make the relatable

relatable and also make the relatable

21:03

such that an emotional attachment,

such that an emotional attachment,

21:06

not just to the outcome of the story, but to the individuals who are participating in that story.

not just to the outcome of the story, but to the individuals who are participating in that story.

21:12

That creates a level of engagement

That creates a level of engagement

21:15

that actually does,

that actually does,

21:18

that does result in powerful and sustainable change because the mission of the show really is to help activate transformation

that does result in powerful and sustainable change because the mission of the show really is to help activate transformation

21:26

in the audience member. So whether it's going from addiction to recovery or changing

in the audience member. So whether it's going from addiction to recovery or changing

21:31

your diet or lifestyle habits to go from unfit to fit or to accomplish a hard task. All of these are just,

your diet or lifestyle habits to go from unfit to fit or to accomplish a hard task. All of these are just,

21:40

metaphors, analogies, or examples

metaphors, analogies, or examples

21:43

of transformation. I think everybody's looking for some kind of transformation in their life. So it's not about, like, how do you go out and and do an ultra endurance race. That's just one vehicle for transformation.

of transformation. I think everybody's looking for some kind of transformation in their life. So it's not about, like, how do you go out and and do an ultra endurance race. That's just one vehicle for transformation.

21:55

It's my personal story, and I'm happy to tell it. But I'm really about getting to the core tenets

It's my personal story, and I'm happy to tell it. But I'm really about getting to the core tenets

22:01

of why some people change and others don't and trying to find

of why some people change and others don't and trying to find

22:05

a means by which I can communicate a path for people to rethink the ceilings on their own limitations

a means by which I can communicate a path for people to rethink the ceilings on their own limitations

22:12

and invite a little bit of challenge, discipline,

and invite a little bit of challenge, discipline,

22:16

and,

and,

22:17

and, you know, kind of goal setting into their own lives so that they can experience some version of the transformation that I've been lucky enough to experience in in my own life. And then the final thing,

and, you know, kind of goal setting into their own lives so that they can experience some version of the transformation that I've been lucky enough to experience in in my own life. And then the final thing,

22:27

that I would point out

that I would point out

22:29

you kind of,

you kind of,

22:30

launched into this question

launched into this question

22:32

with,

with,

22:33

a little treatise about, you know, titles and how you, you know, kind of position your content on internet to try to game it for success.

a little treatise about, you know, titles and how you, you know, kind of position your content on internet to try to game it for success.

22:41

And of course, you know, there are kind of tenets and rules around like, yours. If you want, you know, a lot of people to click, you say at this way or you have this crazy thumbnail. And I'm not saying we're immune from experimenting with that, but I think the core principle that I would like to communicate to you and your audience

And of course, you know, there are kind of tenets and rules around like, yours. If you want, you know, a lot of people to click, you say at this way or you have this crazy thumbnail. And I'm not saying we're immune from experimenting with that, but I think the core principle that I would like to communicate to you and your audience

22:57

is that, you know, in my opinion,

is that, you know, in my opinion,

22:59

over the kind of long arc of of time,

over the kind of long arc of of time,

23:03

quality is what wins. And so I try to

quality is what wins. And so I try to

23:07

opt out of a lot of these trends of the moment and just focus on creating

opt out of a lot of these trends of the moment and just focus on creating

23:12

the most powerful, the best content with the best guests that I can find

the most powerful, the best content with the best guests that I can find

23:16

and and and kind of put it out there and trust that,

and and and kind of put it out there and trust that,

23:21

that it will find the audience that it needs to find. Now that's perhaps a little bit of a a luddite, you know, kind of approach to this. And it certainly isn't gonna,

that it will find the audience that it needs to find. Now that's perhaps a little bit of a a luddite, you know, kind of approach to this. And it certainly isn't gonna,

23:31

you know, create viral moments but as somebody has been doing this for a very long time and has kind of seen and weathered all the changes in media that that seem to take place with even

you know, create viral moments but as somebody has been doing this for a very long time and has kind of seen and weathered all the changes in media that that seem to take place with even

23:41

greater

greater

23:43

a greater increase in in rapidity,

a greater increase in in rapidity,

23:45

like, what are the things that you can control? And really, you know, you can play around with titles and all of that. But honestly, it's like, How good are you at what you're doing? And I think when you place your focus on just creating the best content possible,

like, what are the things that you can control? And really, you know, you can play around with titles and all of that. But honestly, it's like, How good are you at what you're doing? And I think when you place your focus on just creating the best content possible,

23:59

that's the long term strategy that, you know, I've I've sort of adhered to and and believe in. And as a result, it's taken me a long time. I I didn't come out of the gate swinging. I didn't have a New York Times bestseller.

that's the long term strategy that, you know, I've I've sort of adhered to and and believe in. And as a result, it's taken me a long time. I I didn't come out of the gate swinging. I didn't have a New York Times bestseller.

24:10

You know, it's been kind of a very plotting

You know, it's been kind of a very plotting

24:13

path of just slowly brick by brick, like building something

path of just slowly brick by brick, like building something

24:18

that is sustainable over time and and and meaningful.

that is sustainable over time and and and meaningful.

24:22

You said you talked about storytelling,

You said you talked about storytelling,

24:24

and I get this question a lot because we tell a lot of stories.

and I get this question a lot because we tell a lot of stories.

24:28

And I think

And I think

24:31

now we're pretty good at it, but I

now we're pretty good at it, but I

24:34

Definitely was not a storyteller

Definitely was not a storyteller

24:36

growing up. I was the quiet kid and my group of friends

growing up. I was the quiet kid and my group of friends

24:40

in my house My sister was the if something happened to me

in my house My sister was the if something happened to me

24:44

and we wanted to at a party, we wanted to tell the story. It'd be like, let your sister like, basically, sister tell it, it'll be it'll be that's when it'll be good. And so

and we wanted to at a party, we wanted to tell the story. It'd be like, let your sister like, basically, sister tell it, it'll be it'll be that's when it'll be good. And so

24:54

I was definitely not a storyteller kind of like naturally

I was definitely not a storyteller kind of like naturally

24:59

But I've tried to get better at it because I think it's a really powerful tool. You talked about the same thing. Like, you know,

But I've tried to get better at it because I think it's a really powerful tool. You talked about the same thing. Like, you know,

25:04

if you'd like to convey information, if you'd to inspire people if you'd like to educate people, like, you're gonna want this tool in your tool belt called storytelling,

if you'd like to convey information, if you'd to inspire people if you'd like to educate people, like, you're gonna want this tool in your tool belt called storytelling,

25:12

and, you know, work on that craft because it will help you.

and, you know, work on that craft because it will help you.

25:16

Can you teach me a little bit about storytelling? So tell me

Can you teach me a little bit about storytelling? So tell me

25:20

some things that you've learned, either how you learned it, what you learned,

some things that you've learned, either how you learned it, what you learned,

25:24

Help us be a better storyteller in a couple minutes here. What what are some things that, that come to mind?

Help us be a better storyteller in a couple minutes here. What what are some things that, that come to mind?

25:30

Yeah. That's a great. That's a great question. I mean, I I think storytelling is a skill. Like, I'm a naturally,

Yeah. That's a great. That's a great question. I mean, I I think storytelling is a skill. Like, I'm a naturally,

25:37

you know, quiet person myself. I didn't grow up, telling crazy stories around the Camp Fire, you know, and and regaling my friends or anything like that. I really learned I I think my kind of,

you know, quiet person myself. I didn't grow up, telling crazy stories around the Camp Fire, you know, and and regaling my friends or anything like that. I really learned I I think my kind of,

25:50

education around storytelling

education around storytelling

25:52

began

began

25:53

as somebody who who,

as somebody who who,

25:56

has attended thousands, if not tens of thousands of AA meetings.

has attended thousands, if not tens of thousands of AA meetings.

26:00

And being somebody who who had the privilege to bear witness

And being somebody who who had the privilege to bear witness

26:04

to people,

to people,

26:06

get up in front of groups large and small, and really bear their soul and and tell their personal story, warts and all.

get up in front of groups large and small, and really bear their soul and and tell their personal story, warts and all.

26:15

You know, the hardships that they've endured

You know, the hardships that they've endured

26:17

and how they got better and kind of arrived at the life that that they enjoy today.

and how they got better and kind of arrived at the life that that they enjoy today.

26:22

And that requires courage, and it requires

And that requires courage, and it requires

26:25

most importantly

most importantly

26:27

vulnerability.

vulnerability.

26:28

Like, if you've been to NEA meetings and you see people up and they get up and they tell the most horrific stories about the things that they have done, things that would provoke

Like, if you've been to NEA meetings and you see people up and they get up and they tell the most horrific stories about the things that they have done, things that would provoke

26:36

a shame response in any normal human being, and they laugh it off. And you realize like how powerful that is to be so

a shame response in any normal human being, and they laugh it off. And you realize like how powerful that is to be so

26:47

confident in yourself that you can share this tale of something that you did and it holds no power over you. I think that is a powerful kernel of transformation for other people when they hear that.

confident in yourself that you can share this tale of something that you did and it holds no power over you. I think that is a powerful kernel of transformation for other people when they hear that.

26:58

But

But

26:59

to the vulnerability piece,

to the vulnerability piece,

27:01

What it taught me was the courage to be vulnerable myself so that I could get up in front of groups and tell my story with that level of of of honesty.

What it taught me was the courage to be vulnerable myself so that I could get up in front of groups and tell my story with that level of of of honesty.

27:10

And vulnerability.

And vulnerability.

27:13

And also to notice that when you do that, you create

And also to notice that when you do that, you create

27:18

trust and connectivity in the person that you're speaking to. Like, if you're willing to get up and tell them this crazy thing that you did,

trust and connectivity in the person that you're speaking to. Like, if you're willing to get up and tell them this crazy thing that you did,

27:26

as an opener, it gives the other person permission to do the same. And that exchange then becomes,

as an opener, it gives the other person permission to do the same. And that exchange then becomes,

27:33

one that is much more intimate. Than the typical conversation that we're going to have. So that's a key piece. Like, I always try to lead with vulnerability.

one that is much more intimate. Than the typical conversation that we're going to have. So that's a key piece. Like, I always try to lead with vulnerability.

27:42

And the second thing being that that

And the second thing being that that

27:45

you know, everybody has their version of Joseph Campbell's,

you know, everybody has their version of Joseph Campbell's,

27:49

hero's journey. Like, we're all on our own hero's journey of some sort.

hero's journey. Like, we're all on our own hero's journey of some sort.

27:53

And to really kind of study and understand the principles of what makes a great story,

And to really kind of study and understand the principles of what makes a great story,

28:00

helps you extract it out of the person that you're speaking with and also helps you learn how to figure out what that is in your own story. And that just comes with practice. So listen, if I'm sitting across from, you know, a a a doctor and they wanna talk to me about

helps you extract it out of the person that you're speaking with and also helps you learn how to figure out what that is in your own story. And that just comes with practice. So listen, if I'm sitting across from, you know, a a a doctor and they wanna talk to me about

28:17

the microbiome.

the microbiome.

28:19

Maybe that's not a hero's journey story, but maybe how they got interested in that is. You know, I'm always trying to find some

Maybe that's not a hero's journey story, but maybe how they got interested in that is. You know, I'm always trying to find some

28:26

version mini or macro

version mini or macro

28:28

that I can tell that will, you know, create engagement in for myself and and also for the person that's listening. But I've also had the privilege of, and these are some of my favorite episodes where I'm sitting down with somebody who, you know, was really broken in a certain way. And then rebuilt their life and became something else entirely. And that's a great kind of,

that I can tell that will, you know, create engagement in for myself and and also for the person that's listening. But I've also had the privilege of, and these are some of my favorite episodes where I'm sitting down with somebody who, you know, was really broken in a certain way. And then rebuilt their life and became something else entirely. And that's a great kind of,

28:50

template

template

28:50

for doing a full blown Joseph Campbell

for doing a full blown Joseph Campbell

28:53

you know, arc of the hero.

you know, arc of the hero.

28:55

And I think those stories are powerful because when somebody can see that type of transformation in somebody who had it way worse than they have it. It raises the the, you know, their their own belief in in in themselves. And I think, you know, to really specifically answer your question, it's just a practice. Like, I've been doing this for ten years. Like, I I would be horrified to go back and listen to some of my first episodes. So know, I've learned in real time in a public sphere, but just like anything else, like, you have to practice it and figure out also

And I think those stories are powerful because when somebody can see that type of transformation in somebody who had it way worse than they have it. It raises the the, you know, their their own belief in in in themselves. And I think, you know, to really specifically answer your question, it's just a practice. Like, I've been doing this for ten years. Like, I I would be horrified to go back and listen to some of my first episodes. So know, I've learned in real time in a public sphere, but just like anything else, like, you have to practice it and figure out also

29:27

what works for you. It's not, oh, I'm gonna follow this person did it, and they were successful. So I'm gonna do it that way. It's like, what speaks to you? What is natural? And authentic to who you are. And I think the more that you can bring your own intuition and sensibility and honesty into whatever it is that you're trying to share with the world,

what works for you. It's not, oh, I'm gonna follow this person did it, and they were successful. So I'm gonna do it that way. It's like, what speaks to you? What is natural? And authentic to who you are. And I think the more that you can bring your own intuition and sensibility and honesty into whatever it is that you're trying to share with the world,

29:46

that's gonna be the the demarcation,

that's gonna be the the demarcation,

29:50

that will distinguish you.

that will distinguish you.

29:51

From others.

From others.

29:54

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30:06

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30:10

Who do you think are great storytellers,

Who do you think are great storytellers,

30:12

like, are there any people or books that you learn from or where you you look at it and you you sort of have picked up things,

like, are there any people or books that you learn from or where you you look at it and you you sort of have picked up things,

30:18

from them?

from them?

30:21

Sure. I mean, I think Malcolm Gladwell is a master storyteller.

Sure. I mean, I think Malcolm Gladwell is a master storyteller.

30:25

We we we have the privilege of just having him in here of weeks ago. And, I mean, nobody can tell a story like that guy. I mean, he can take people off the street and in five minutes, you know, figure out something absolutely fascinating about them that will become an episode of revisionist history, you know, and it's a I mean, I think he has a talent,

We we we have the privilege of just having him in here of weeks ago. And, I mean, nobody can tell a story like that guy. I mean, he can take people off the street and in five minutes, you know, figure out something absolutely fascinating about them that will become an episode of revisionist history, you know, and it's a I mean, I think he has a talent,

30:45

that, you know, we can all aspire to that probably we can't reach, but I think he's fantastic at it. I think,

that, you know, we can all aspire to that probably we can't reach, but I think he's fantastic at it. I think,

30:51

Adam Grant is a phenomenal storyteller. I mean, some of the authors that are you know, working in social psychology right now are are pretty great at at storytelling, but those would be the two that that come to mind.

Adam Grant is a phenomenal storyteller. I mean, some of the authors that are you know, working in social psychology right now are are pretty great at at storytelling, but those would be the two that that come to mind.

31:04

And you, I'm gonna read a quote from your story.

And you, I'm gonna read a quote from your story.

31:07

And I want you to basically,

And I want you to basically,

31:09

take me there and then, where you came. So here's the quote.

take me there and then, where you came. So here's the quote.

31:14

We had four kids. We were so broke at one point. Not long after my book came out, we had nothing to go on. We ended up going to Kauai and living in your thinking we may never come back to LA, and we were gonna lose our house.

We had four kids. We were so broke at one point. Not long after my book came out, we had nothing to go on. We ended up going to Kauai and living in your thinking we may never come back to LA, and we were gonna lose our house.

31:26

So what was that? And then how did you get from there to here?

So what was that? And then how did you get from there to here?

31:32

Yeah, man. That was,

Yeah, man. That was,

31:34

that was rough. So

that was rough. So

31:37

it it was very disorienting

it it was very disorienting

31:38

because

because

31:40

I had the opportunity to write this book, and I got, like I mentioned earlier, like, a decent advance for a first time author, but

I had the opportunity to write this book, and I got, like I mentioned earlier, like, a decent advance for a first time author, but

31:48

four kids and the way that publishing advances work, they dole it out in increments over, you know, a good deal of time and then taxes and agent cuts and all of that. It turns out to not be that much.

four kids and the way that publishing advances work, they dole it out in increments over, you know, a good deal of time and then taxes and agent cuts and all of that. It turns out to not be that much.

32:00

So the book comes out

So the book comes out

32:03

where, you know, shoe stringing

where, you know, shoe stringing

32:05

to be able to pay our bills.

to be able to pay our bills.

32:07

And a big theme in the book is this idea that when, you know, and it's my story of transformation, that When

And a big theme in the book is this idea that when, you know, and it's my story of transformation, that When

32:14

your heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you. It's something I I believe I it's it's a it's a principle I've seen,

your heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you. It's something I I believe I it's it's a it's a principle I've seen,

32:24

you know, come to play in in many people that I know, and it's something that I believed was happening in my own life and would continue to happen. And when the came out. I decided I'm not renewing my bar membership.

you know, come to play in in many people that I know, and it's something that I believed was happening in my own life and would continue to happen. And when the came out. I decided I'm not renewing my bar membership.

32:35

I'm gonna step into this new thing, and I don't know what it's gonna what kind of opportunities are gonna come, but I need to be a hundred percent available for them, and I was trusting. I was like, my heart is true.

I'm gonna step into this new thing, and I don't know what it's gonna what kind of opportunities are gonna come, but I need to be a hundred percent available for them, and I was trusting. I was like, my heart is true.

32:46

Something is gonna happen. We're gonna figure this out.

Something is gonna happen. We're gonna figure this out.

32:49

But, you know, I was running a household with a relatively high overhead at the time. Four kids a mortgage,

But, you know, I was running a household with a relatively high overhead at the time. Four kids a mortgage,

32:56

and

and

32:56

you know, the the problem with that equation is there's no timeline on it. And, you know, my edict has has has borne out to be true over time ten years later, but, it was really rough for quite quite an extended period of time. We couldn't pay our mortgage. We had cars repossessed. I've told this story before, but

you know, the the problem with that equation is there's no timeline on it. And, you know, my edict has has has borne out to be true over time ten years later, but, it was really rough for quite quite an extended period of time. We couldn't pay our mortgage. We had cars repossessed. I've told this story before, but

33:17

it was so bad at one point,

it was so bad at one point,

33:20

that know, we didn't have enough money to pay for our our our,

that know, we didn't have enough money to pay for our our our,

33:24

garbage collection. So they took away our bins. We had to put our our garbage bags in the back of this beat up minivan that we had and look for, you know, kind of, bins like behind the grocery stores and stuff to, like, throw our garbage. I mean, it was pretty humiliating and and quite frankly pretty emasculating

garbage collection. So they took away our bins. We had to put our our garbage bags in the back of this beat up minivan that we had and look for, you know, kind of, bins like behind the grocery stores and stuff to, like, throw our garbage. I mean, it was pretty humiliating and and quite frankly pretty emasculating

33:40

as somebody who's supposed to be, you know, head of household and taking care of shit. Like, I was unable

as somebody who's supposed to be, you know, head of household and taking care of shit. Like, I was unable

33:46

to make sure that my house was in order. And so we went through a really rough period of time,

to make sure that my house was in order. And so we went through a really rough period of time,

33:52

and

and

33:53

it was not clear that we were gonna be able to kind of persevere.

it was not clear that we were gonna be able to kind of persevere.

33:57

We did get an opportunity. A friend of mine, who's a high net worth individual,

We did get an opportunity. A friend of mine, who's a high net worth individual,

34:01

had,

had,

34:02

a property on the North Shore of Kauai, was trying to figure out how to turn it into some kind of community space, and he had read my book and had been inspired. And he said, why don't you come out and help me figure out, like, what I can do to transfer this property into something more meaningful than where I live.

a property on the North Shore of Kauai, was trying to figure out how to turn it into some kind of community space, and he had read my book and had been inspired. And he said, why don't you come out and help me figure out, like, what I can do to transfer this property into something more meaningful than where I live.

34:19

And I don't know why he thought that I would be somebody well suited for that job. It's not like I have any kind of experience in that. But essentially, you know, in retrospect, looking back, like, he threw my family a lifeline. And so, yes, we moved to the North Shore of Kwaai,

And I don't know why he thought that I would be somebody well suited for that job. It's not like I have any kind of experience in that. But essentially, you know, in retrospect, looking back, like, he threw my family a lifeline. And so, yes, we moved to the North Shore of Kwaai,

34:34

It was a operating,

It was a operating,

34:36

mango farm at the at the at the time and the, the kind of,

mango farm at the at the at the time and the, the kind of,

34:40

woofers who were working the farm were living in these yurts behind

woofers who were working the farm were living in these yurts behind

34:43

the main,

the main,

34:45

sort of dwelling at the on the property, and we moved into these yurts with these young kids who were working the land.

sort of dwelling at the on the property, and we moved into these yurts with these young kids who were working the land.

34:51

And spent a couple months where I was trying to help this individual figure out what to do with his property.

And spent a couple months where I was trying to help this individual figure out what to do with his property.

34:57

But mainly, he was paying me such that we could pay our bills. And when we went to Kauai,

But mainly, he was paying me such that we could pay our bills. And when we went to Kauai,

35:01

we thought there's no way we're gonna save our house. We haven't been able to pay our mortgage in so long. Like, it's not possible. We may just be here, and this is where we're gonna live. And after a couple months,

we thought there's no way we're gonna save our house. We haven't been able to pay our mortgage in so long. Like, it's not possible. We may just be here, and this is where we're gonna live. And after a couple months,

35:13

you know,

you know,

35:14

of living out there, I started to get a creative itch. Like, I had written this book and I was trying to get some energy going around, like, these ideas that were important to me. And I was feeling a little bit of island fever and disconnected and stuff. So that's when the impetus to start the podcast happen. Like, I needed to do something creative for myself. And And, you know, I'll always look back on that experience quite romantically because it would it created the perfect storm of events to create this thing that has now you know, been successful beyond my wildest imagination.

of living out there, I started to get a creative itch. Like, I had written this book and I was trying to get some energy going around, like, these ideas that were important to me. And I was feeling a little bit of island fever and disconnected and stuff. So that's when the impetus to start the podcast happen. Like, I needed to do something creative for myself. And And, you know, I'll always look back on that experience quite romantically because it would it created the perfect storm of events to create this thing that has now you know, been successful beyond my wildest imagination.

35:45

And so let's break down the business side of things. So you have the content which is like you said, the tip of the spear at the top of the funnel where people,

And so let's break down the business side of things. So you have the content which is like you said, the tip of the spear at the top of the funnel where people,

35:54

they sort of they discover you. They start to like you. They start to trust you. I love you and say, oh, wow. This is

they sort of they discover you. They start to like you. They start to trust you. I love you and say, oh, wow. This is

36:00

content that could really help me. But then you have these, like, really interesting businesses. Right? So you have,

content that could really help me. But then you have these, like, really interesting businesses. Right? So you have,

36:06

you know, you have the meal planning business. So, like, I don't know,

you know, you have the meal planning business. So, like, I don't know,

36:10

meals dot retrol dot com, something like that. And so you have -- Mhmm. -- you have a meal planning business. You charge, you know, I don't know, hundred bucks a year or something like that. You help people

meals dot retrol dot com, something like that. And so you have -- Mhmm. -- you have a meal planning business. You charge, you know, I don't know, hundred bucks a year or something like that. You help people

36:19

you know, go sort of plant based in a way that's gonna that's gonna work for them.

you know, go sort of plant based in a way that's gonna that's gonna work for them.

36:23

You have this thing called the Epic five Challenge, which is

You have this thing called the Epic five Challenge, which is

36:27

five. I don't know what it is. Five Ironman triathlons or something like that in in five, like, in five days. What is what is the exact thing for Epic five? Yeah.

five. I don't know what it is. Five Ironman triathlons or something like that in in five, like, in five days. What is what is the exact thing for Epic five? Yeah.

36:35

So just to be clear, I don't have any financial involvement in in that race. But, yes, so one of the things I did as an athlete was this thing called Epic five where Jason Less Durant and I did five,

So just to be clear, I don't have any financial involvement in in that race. But, yes, so one of the things I did as an athlete was this thing called Epic five where Jason Less Durant and I did five,

36:46

iron distance triathlons on five Hawaiian Islands. The idea was to do it in five days. It took us a little bit longer. But in the wake of that experience,

iron distance triathlons on five Hawaiian Islands. The idea was to do it in five days. It took us a little bit longer. But in the wake of that experience,

36:54

it's become an annual event that I'm not affiliated with professionally, but that's part of my story. Isn't a part of that. Alright. So, basically, it's like mostly the media company.

it's become an annual event that I'm not affiliated with professionally, but that's part of my story. Isn't a part of that. Alright. So, basically, it's like mostly the media company.

37:05

And then it's the meal planning business.

And then it's the meal planning business.

37:08

Talk to us about, how you kind of like, you you mentioned your mentor friend who helped you kind of structure this and set this up and figure out how to actually build a like a, like, a full, like, you know, thriving life going from living in the yard on the mango farm to, like, you know,

Talk to us about, how you kind of like, you you mentioned your mentor friend who helped you kind of structure this and set this up and figure out how to actually build a like a, like, a full, like, you know, thriving life going from living in the yard on the mango farm to, like, you know,

37:23

you know, actualizing

you know, actualizing

37:24

this idea

this idea

37:26

What is that biz what's the business brain part of you? You know, how would you explain that just to the next person who maybe they don't have that mentor, maybe they they see what you do Can you explain it here? And maybe there's out of our audience, some people out there who can take that blueprint or that idea and say, okay. I'm in a totally different vertical. I'm you know, I have some differences but I can learn from how he's architected this business.

What is that biz what's the business brain part of you? You know, how would you explain that just to the next person who maybe they don't have that mentor, maybe they they see what you do Can you explain it here? And maybe there's out of our audience, some people out there who can take that blueprint or that idea and say, okay. I'm in a totally different vertical. I'm you know, I have some differences but I can learn from how he's architected this business.

37:48

Sure.

Sure.

37:49

So first of all, that mentor then became my business partner, and That's a key piece in all of this because without him, I probably would have never gotten out of the gate. And he's been my business partner ever since, and it's an amazing relationship. And what he brought to the equation was not only,

So first of all, that mentor then became my business partner, and That's a key piece in all of this because without him, I probably would have never gotten out of the gate. And he's been my business partner ever since, and it's an amazing relationship. And what he brought to the equation was not only,

38:06

a sense of possibility,

a sense of possibility,

38:07

but like I said earlier, like structure. And That structure has always been,

but like I said earlier, like structure. And That structure has always been,

38:14

grounded in

grounded in

38:15

real business fundamentals

real business fundamentals

38:17

and being patient. And

and being patient. And

38:20

and and and growing only incrementally

and and and growing only incrementally

38:23

and not getting too excited about new stuff and taking on too much. So It's been a slow growth curve, but in retrospect, it we've we I think we've made really good decisions about how we've invested our time and our energy And, yes, it's now a very diversified,

and not getting too excited about new stuff and taking on too much. So It's been a slow growth curve, but in retrospect, it we've we I think we've made really good decisions about how we've invested our time and our energy And, yes, it's now a very diversified,

38:39

business that is fundamentally

business that is fundamentally

38:41

media oriented.

media oriented.

38:43

But we have a lot of different verticals So, yes, the podcast is the tip of the spear as I mentioned earlier. It's the thing that that drives everything else, and it's also the thing that generates the most,

But we have a lot of different verticals So, yes, the podcast is the tip of the spear as I mentioned earlier. It's the thing that that drives everything else, and it's also the thing that generates the most,

38:54

the most income.

the most income.

38:55

The meal planner,

The meal planner,

38:56

does very well for us. I love that it's a a low cost entry to something I think can be really transformational

does very well for us. I love that it's a a low cost entry to something I think can be really transformational

39:03

in terms of people changing their habits around food. So that's a, you know, an integral piece in all of this. And then there's the book. So I mentioned finding Ultra, but we also have,

in terms of people changing their habits around food. So that's a, you know, an integral piece in all of this. And then there's the book. So I mentioned finding Ultra, but we also have,

39:14

three cookbooks, the plant power way, the plant power way Italian. And then my wife wrote a book called this cheese's nuts, which is about how to make plant based cheese. So we have the publishing end,

three cookbooks, the plant power way, the plant power way Italian. And then my wife wrote a book called this cheese's nuts, which is about how to make plant based cheese. So we have the publishing end,

39:25

and, and she's gone off. Good business. I feel like I've heard that cookbooks could be a a good business. Like, books may not books in general may not be the cookbooks specifically might actually be a good business. What teach us about that because you, you know, you don't run into too many people who have done this.

and, and she's gone off. Good business. I feel like I've heard that cookbooks could be a a good business. Like, books may not books in general may not be the cookbooks specifically might actually be a good business. What teach us about that because you, you know, you don't run into too many people who have done this.

39:39

Cookbooks are a very good business.

Cookbooks are a very good business.

39:42

It's it's hit or miss, but if you hit, they can be massive.

It's it's hit or miss, but if you hit, they can be massive.

39:46

They're difficult to put together because

They're difficult to put together because

39:48

beyond just the written words on the page, there's photography, and there's recipe testing, and all of that. There's a lot that goes into creating a great cookbook, but They're great businesses.

beyond just the written words on the page, there's photography, and there's recipe testing, and all of that. There's a lot that goes into creating a great cookbook, but They're great businesses.

39:58

And a big reason for that is that if you do hit at their perennial sellers, so they'll sell year after year after year. And how does that work? So a hit means what you get picked up with, like, brick good brick and mortar distribution, or is it mostly direct to consumer? Like, what what does it hit? What does it look like when you get a hit?

And a big reason for that is that if you do hit at their perennial sellers, so they'll sell year after year after year. And how does that work? So a hit means what you get picked up with, like, brick good brick and mortar distribution, or is it mostly direct to consumer? Like, what what does it hit? What does it look like when you get a hit?

40:14

I think it it depends on what your goals and motivations are. So our cookbooks we've done with a major publisher Avery,

I think it it depends on what your goals and motivations are. So our cookbooks we've done with a major publisher Avery,

40:22

which is part of random house.

which is part of random house.

40:24

And we got really nice advances

And we got really nice advances

40:26

for those books, and those books continue to sell and and do well for us.

for those books, and those books continue to sell and and do well for us.

40:31

They weren't they're not they weren't neither of them were were New York Times bestsellers or anything like that, but the real mark of success I think in publishing is whether or not you create something that is perennial. So finding Ultra, for example,

They weren't they're not they weren't neither of them were were New York Times bestsellers or anything like that, but the real mark of success I think in publishing is whether or not you create something that is perennial. So finding Ultra, for example,

40:44

we just hit the decade mark on that, and it continues to sell

we just hit the decade mark on that, and it continues to sell

40:48

more and more every single year. So even though it wasn't huge out of the gate, it continues to find audiences. And then it becomes

more and more every single year. So even though it wasn't huge out of the gate, it continues to find audiences. And then it becomes

40:55

you know, just a a revenue stream for you for you quarter after quarter. So

you know, just a a revenue stream for you for you quarter after quarter. So

41:00

those are the those books, but now we have we have two other books that we've self published

those are the those books, but now we have we have two other books that we've self published

41:05

called voicing change, which are,

called voicing change, which are,

41:08

coffee table versions of the podcast with excerpts from our favorite guests with amazing photography and essays contributed by myself and some of the guests that really act like keepsakes

coffee table versions of the podcast with excerpts from our favorite guests with amazing photography and essays contributed by myself and some of the guests that really act like keepsakes

41:19

or marketing tools for the podcast. Like, it's a it's a it's a collectible item.

or marketing tools for the podcast. Like, it's a it's a it's a collectible item.

41:25

These books,

These books,

41:26

our motivation

our motivation

41:27

or our definition of success for these books is very different from the other books because they're not intended

or our definition of success for these books is very different from the other books because they're not intended

41:32

to go out and sell

to go out and sell

41:34

to make the New York Times bestseller list. They have a very specific audience in mind,

to make the New York Times bestseller list. They have a very specific audience in mind,

41:39

and the fact that we created them in house means that it's a different revenue model as well. So we don't need to sell as many of them to do well. And I'm really proud of those books. We're gonna do another one this year and create a box set. And also when we work with brands, which is a big piece of, of our business as well, it's great to be able to send them the book and show them that we're executing on a quality level that I think no one else is doing in the podcast space, which helps distinguish us from, you know, the zillions of other podcasts that are out there because it's very crowded right now and sends the message that you know, we're we're trying to elevate a certain, you know, we're we're all of our content is very elevated and that, you know, we're we're operating from a very professional perspective

and the fact that we created them in house means that it's a different revenue model as well. So we don't need to sell as many of them to do well. And I'm really proud of those books. We're gonna do another one this year and create a box set. And also when we work with brands, which is a big piece of, of our business as well, it's great to be able to send them the book and show them that we're executing on a quality level that I think no one else is doing in the podcast space, which helps distinguish us from, you know, the zillions of other podcasts that are out there because it's very crowded right now and sends the message that you know, we're we're trying to elevate a certain, you know, we're we're all of our content is very elevated and that, you know, we're we're operating from a very professional perspective

42:25

in everything that we're doing.

in everything that we're doing.

42:27

So that's the books. And then we have sorry. Go ahead. On the books, one second. So I'm fascinated by the book's thing. I think it's, really cool. I think it's a really cool. My wife is vegan. Also, she has we have maybe I don't know, ten, fifteen, really high. And she, you know, she loves the it's like a coffee table book and a cookbook at the same time. Like, it's gotta have the, like, premium sort of finish and

So that's the books. And then we have sorry. Go ahead. On the books, one second. So I'm fascinated by the book's thing. I think it's, really cool. I think it's a really cool. My wife is vegan. Also, she has we have maybe I don't know, ten, fifteen, really high. And she, you know, she loves the it's like a coffee table book and a cookbook at the same time. Like, it's gotta have the, like, premium sort of finish and

42:48

photography. It's very aspirational.

photography. It's very aspirational.

42:50

And as a

And as a

42:52

guy who barely, you know, knows how to use a Frank pen and, like, You know, I don't know. I eat, like, I I eat, like, a college kid sometimes. It's like, I see this to do so different for me. So I started getting curious about this cookbook she was buying and this who are these people behind this? Now are those perennials

guy who barely, you know, knows how to use a Frank pen and, like, You know, I don't know. I eat, like, I I eat, like, a college kid sometimes. It's like, I see this to do so different for me. So I started getting curious about this cookbook she was buying and this who are these people behind this? Now are those perennials

43:09

just because

just because

43:11

you

you

43:12

have a growing audience. And so, like, your audience grows every year, and it's, like, one percent of your audience buys your stuff. And you are the you are the sales as well as the And so that's why they keep climbing, or is it kind of like independent in a way? Like, obviously, that contributes. But, like,

have a growing audience. And so, like, your audience grows every year, and it's, like, one percent of your audience buys your stuff. And you are the you are the sales as well as the And so that's why they keep climbing, or is it kind of like independent in a way? Like, obviously, that contributes. But, like,

43:27

is there a separate engine that lets those continue to grow, or is it just main engine of, like, my podcast grows. Therefore,

is there a separate engine that lets those continue to grow, or is it just main engine of, like, my podcast grows. Therefore,

43:33

one percent of people will go buy the cookbook every year.

one percent of people will go buy the cookbook every year.

43:37

Yeah. I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, finding Ultra, which is a memoir. I think the continued

Yeah. I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, finding Ultra, which is a memoir. I think the continued

43:42

sales of that book

sales of that book

43:43

are are are really,

are are are really,

43:45

due to the growing platform that we've created here. The cookbooks are a little bit different.

due to the growing platform that we've created here. The cookbooks are a little bit different.

43:51

It's, of course, you know, in part because of the platform, and we use the platform to, you know,

It's, of course, you know, in part because of the platform, and we use the platform to, you know,

43:57

sort of occasionally,

sort of occasionally,

43:59

you know, promote the books. But I think in tandem with that, we've seen

you know, promote the books. But I think in tandem with that, we've seen

44:05

a real mainstreaming

a real mainstreaming

44:07

of plant based lifestyle in a way that didn't exist back in two thousand twelve, two thousand fourteen, more and more people. Are interested in this lifestyle and diet,

of plant based lifestyle in a way that didn't exist back in two thousand twelve, two thousand fourteen, more and more people. Are interested in this lifestyle and diet,

44:17

which means that those those cookbooks

which means that those those cookbooks

44:20

retain relevancy.

retain relevancy.

44:22

And have you,

And have you,

44:24

like, have you done have you launched any businesses or products like this that have just flopped, like, you know, the the version of the the cookbook that, like, you were excited about. You even maybe liked the product and it just didn't work, or have you been pretty

like, have you done have you launched any businesses or products like this that have just flopped, like, you know, the the version of the the cookbook that, like, you were excited about. You even maybe liked the product and it just didn't work, or have you been pretty

44:37

high hit rate with the with what you guys have launched outside, like, you know, like, an additional products.

high hit rate with the with what you guys have launched outside, like, you know, like, an additional products.

44:43

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, early on in this process. We launched,

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, early on in this process. We launched,

44:50

a couple supplements, like a protein powder, and I thought maybe, like, nutraceuticals

a couple supplements, like a protein powder, and I thought maybe, like, nutraceuticals

44:54

might be something that I would be didn't doing. And I quickly lost interest in that. It was modestly successful,

might be something that I would be didn't doing. And I quickly lost interest in that. It was modestly successful,

45:02

but I realized that It was a very crowded marketplace, and there were people who were doing really good work in that area.

but I realized that It was a very crowded marketplace, and there were people who were doing really good work in that area.

45:10

And I was more interested in the media. And if I was not at the,

And I was more interested in the media. And if I was not at the,

45:16

at the plants, like at the manufacturing

at the plants, like at the manufacturing

45:19

location

location

45:19

overseeing all of this and really being detail oriented around it.

overseeing all of this and really being detail oriented around it.

45:23

There was too much risk of shenanigans because I was not in control of the manufacturing process, and there's a lot of weird stuff that goes on in that old when you're licensing

There was too much risk of shenanigans because I was not in control of the manufacturing process, and there's a lot of weird stuff that goes on in that old when you're licensing

45:34

these labs to create something for you, and it felt like my risk exposure was too high. And I I just realized I didn't wanna and unless I was gonna go all in on that, it it didn't make sense. And so we abandoned that.

these labs to create something for you, and it felt like my risk exposure was too high. And I I just realized I didn't wanna and unless I was gonna go all in on that, it it didn't make sense. And so we abandoned that.

45:47

We have other, you know, we sell some swag and some t shirts and things like that on the website.

We have other, you know, we sell some swag and some t shirts and things like that on the website.

45:52

They don't do fantastic, but it's nice to have them there. So, you know, not everything is a huge smash success, but sometimes some of these smaller,

They don't do fantastic, but it's nice to have them there. So, you know, not everything is a huge smash success, but sometimes some of these smaller,

46:01

verticals still make sense nonetheless. Right. And you're if you were doing a pie chart, is it like these the meal planning and the cookbooks and all that stuff that's cool, but, like, in reality, if we if we drew the pie chart, is it, like,

verticals still make sense nonetheless. Right. And you're if you were doing a pie chart, is it like these the meal planning and the cookbooks and all that stuff that's cool, but, like, in reality, if we if we drew the pie chart, is it, like,

46:14

podcasts or, you know, the media side is with the sponsors is ninety percent of it anyways, or is it fairly

podcasts or, you know, the media side is with the sponsors is ninety percent of it anyways, or is it fairly

46:20

like,

like,

46:21

Deverside beyond that?

Deverside beyond that?

46:24

I would say

I would say

46:25

the podcast is maybe I don't know. I I should do a pie chart, so I know this better. But it's probably, you know, around

the podcast is maybe I don't know. I I should do a pie chart, so I know this better. But it's probably, you know, around

46:33

eighty to eighty five percent of it, but the other the other revenue generators are public speaking, which is growing a lot.

eighty to eighty five percent of it, but the other the other revenue generators are public speaking, which is growing a lot.

46:41

So we do it well there. And

So we do it well there. And

46:44

and, you know, the the the the podcast model is an advertising model. So that money comes from sponsors.

and, you know, the the the the podcast model is an advertising model. So that money comes from sponsors.

46:50

But I also have relationships with a handful of sponsors outside of the podcast context where I'm represented

But I also have relationships with a handful of sponsors outside of the podcast context where I'm represented

46:57

as as an athlete For example, like with Solomon.

as as an athlete For example, like with Solomon.

47:01

So that's another kind of way that we,

So that's another kind of way that we,

47:05

you know, grow the business that isn't necessarily

you know, grow the business that isn't necessarily

47:08

related to the podcast itself.

related to the podcast itself.

47:10

And then we have retreats. So we do these COVID really sidelined this part of our business, but we're getting back to it next spring.

And then we have retreats. So we do these COVID really sidelined this part of our business, but we're getting back to it next spring.

47:17

Where my wife and I take groups of people,

Where my wife and I take groups of people,

47:20

to a location in Italy and have a week long experience with food and meditation and running in the in social stuff like that. When we have guests on the pod, I find that they typically fall into two buckets.

to a location in Italy and have a week long experience with food and meditation and running in the in social stuff like that. When we have guests on the pod, I find that they typically fall into two buckets.

47:32

And both I,

And both I,

47:35

admire.

admire.

47:36

There's what I'll call the kind of like expected bucket, like, on a business oriented podcast, which is

There's what I'll call the kind of like expected bucket, like, on a business oriented podcast, which is

47:41

person comes on, They have a a product or a story so far that's, like, exciting

person comes on, They have a a product or a story so far that's, like, exciting

47:47

and momentum.

and momentum.

47:48

And, you know, what's admirable about them is their, you know, and They basically they they never stop dreaming bigger.

And, you know, what's admirable about them is their, you know, and They basically they they never stop dreaming bigger.

47:54

And,

And,

47:55

they see, you know, no limit, and they are chasing that that sort of limitless vision where you you walk away from the podcast and you feel like, oh, man. I've been thinking small. Right? And that's a great feeling. It's not a negative feeling. Oh, wow. The the the the pie is even bigger than I could have imagined possibilities are different than than what I had been kind of come to accept. An example would be, buddies with the founder of, calm,

they see, you know, no limit, and they are chasing that that sort of limitless vision where you you walk away from the podcast and you feel like, oh, man. I've been thinking small. Right? And that's a great feeling. It's not a negative feeling. Oh, wow. The the the the pie is even bigger than I could have imagined possibilities are different than than what I had been kind of come to accept. An example would be, buddies with the founder of, calm,

48:18

And I remember even very early on when that app it's a meditation app and now it's very, very big. It's probably a, you know, one to three billion dollar company.

And I remember even very early on when that app it's a meditation app and now it's very, very big. It's probably a, you know, one to three billion dollar company.

48:27

But they early on when they could they could barely get an investor to to give them a check. It was like just a couple guys in their apartment. There wasn't there really wasn't much to to going for it. Even back then, I remember,

But they early on when they could they could barely get an investor to to give them a check. It was like just a couple guys in their apartment. There wasn't there really wasn't much to to going for it. Even back then, I remember,

48:40

Michael talking about, like, we're gonna have an island someday, like a calm island. Like, you know, like, coachella, like, festivals, Right. But instead of craziness, like, instead of rowdy, we're gonna be selling calm as a festival, and we're gonna do it on our own island. And it's gonna be like Disney World for calm. And, like, we're gonna build a Nike level brand. And he was talking about that back then. And, you know, when he said it back then, he seemed a little nuts. And now, you know, he says it now and he's a visionary, but he's been saying the same thing like ten years. And so that's an example of the high ambition path, that I admire. And the other one is

Michael talking about, like, we're gonna have an island someday, like a calm island. Like, you know, like, coachella, like, festivals, Right. But instead of craziness, like, instead of rowdy, we're gonna be selling calm as a festival, and we're gonna do it on our own island. And it's gonna be like Disney World for calm. And, like, we're gonna build a Nike level brand. And he was talking about that back then. And, you know, when he said it back then, he seemed a little nuts. And now, you know, he says it now and he's a visionary, but he's been saying the same thing like ten years. And so that's an example of the high ambition path, that I admire. And the other one is

49:11

the person who's

the person who's

49:13

I either, like, high contentness,

I either, like, high contentness,

49:15

and they're like, well,

and they're like, well,

49:18

I really love what we're doing.

I really love what we're doing.

49:20

I don't know if we'll do more. Haven't really thought about it.

I don't know if we'll do more. Haven't really thought about it.

49:24

Maybe we will, but, you know, here are my principles and, you know, they're

Maybe we will, but, you know, here are my principles and, you know, they're

49:29

they're admirable and how grounded they are and that they have found, you know, some version of enough for them, and they are not, like, you know, trying to take over the world.

they're admirable and how grounded they are and that they have found, you know, some version of enough for them, and they are not, like, you know, trying to take over the world.

49:37

Which part of that spectrum do you lean more towards when it comes to business? Yeah. That's a great question. I I I lean more towards the

Which part of that spectrum do you lean more towards when it comes to business? Yeah. That's a great question. I I I lean more towards the

49:45

latter.

latter.

49:46

But maybe not all the way on that side. I mean, I'm certainly not the guy who's dreaming about islands and private jets and things like that. People ask me all the time, like, what's the vision? Like, what, you know, where do you see yourself in five years? And I always feel weird or guilty because I don't have a good answer for that. And I and I realized like, oh, it's just because I don't I don't really think that way. Like, I'm focused on how I can be better today than I was yesterday.

But maybe not all the way on that side. I mean, I'm certainly not the guy who's dreaming about islands and private jets and things like that. People ask me all the time, like, what's the vision? Like, what, you know, where do you see yourself in five years? And I always feel weird or guilty because I don't have a good answer for that. And I and I realized like, oh, it's just because I don't I don't really think that way. Like, I'm focused on how I can be better today than I was yesterday.

50:14

I'm focused on how to enhance the quality of what I'm sharing with the world.

I'm focused on how to enhance the quality of what I'm sharing with the world.

50:18

And I'm focused on trying to be grateful and content with what I have and not be jealous or envious of what other people who have more than me have because that's just a dangerous place for me as a recovering alcoholic and just as a human being. So I am competitive.

And I'm focused on trying to be grateful and content with what I have and not be jealous or envious of what other people who have more than me have because that's just a dangerous place for me as a recovering alcoholic and just as a human being. So I am competitive.

50:36

Like, I'm not averse, looking at their rankings on Apple Podcast and getting, you know, fresh traded because somebody's ahead of me who I don't think is deserving of it. Like, you know, I can be incredibly petty that way.

Like, I'm not averse, looking at their rankings on Apple Podcast and getting, you know, fresh traded because somebody's ahead of me who I don't think is deserving of it. Like, you know, I can be incredibly petty that way.

50:49

But But honestly, like, for the most part, like, I'm I'm just so grateful to be in the position that I'm in, and I'm not doing this to get to another place. Like, if this is all that it is, like, it's been a pretty fucking good ride, and

But But honestly, like, for the most part, like, I'm I'm just so grateful to be in the position that I'm in, and I'm not doing this to get to another place. Like, if this is all that it is, like, it's been a pretty fucking good ride, and

51:03

I'm stoked to be able to weigh up every day and come in and talk to amazing people. And if I can continue to do this, and that's, again, like, all that it is, like, That's a damn good run. Right. Now there are, you know, creative things that I want to express, and they're not about chasing money. They're more like,

I'm stoked to be able to weigh up every day and come in and talk to amazing people. And if I can continue to do this, and that's, again, like, all that it is, like, That's a damn good run. Right. Now there are, you know, creative things that I want to express, and they're not about chasing money. They're more like,

51:22

you know, just inspirations that I have, like, oh, it would be cool to do this, or can I carve out enough bandwidth so if I can explore this other thing that that is interesting to me right now? So it's much more of kind of an artist's path of

you know, just inspirations that I have, like, oh, it would be cool to do this, or can I carve out enough bandwidth so if I can explore this other thing that that is interesting to me right now? So it's much more of kind of an artist's path of

51:36

of of following

of of following

51:38

my gut and what gets me excited rather than here's a new business because I I think we could ease we could have easily

my gut and what gets me excited rather than here's a new business because I I think we could ease we could have easily

51:45

complicated what we're doing right now and created a network and, you know, started, you know, having other people create podcasts and And, you know, building an entity that we could sell to Spotify or something like that, but that's not really

complicated what we're doing right now and created a network and, you know, started, you know, having other people create podcasts and And, you know, building an entity that we could sell to Spotify or something like that, but that's not really

51:58

where my heart is or or where my head is. So

where my heart is or or where my head is. So

52:02

I don't know if that answers your question, but that's how I think about it. You know,

I don't know if that answers your question, but that's how I think about it. You know,

52:07

one thing that I always like to talk to different guests that come on about is, like, you know, you live in a in a different world than me. Therefore, you see different things,

one thing that I always like to talk to different guests that come on about is, like, you know, you live in a in a different world than me. Therefore, you see different things,

52:16

and you see different problems and opportunities and trends that

and you see different problems and opportunities and trends that

52:20

me over here, I'm not seeing because I'm just focused on other things. And so,

me over here, I'm not seeing because I'm just focused on other things. And so,

52:24

I'm curious. Either and you can take it in either direction. You can either take it in a trend So, like, let's say,

I'm curious. Either and you can take it in either direction. You can either take it in a trend So, like, let's say,

52:30

maybe in two thousand twelve,

maybe in two thousand twelve,

52:33

maybe you might have said, you know what? There's a really passionate community of plant based, you know, around this plant based lifestyle. And I think this is gonna get bigger. I think people are gonna more people are gonna I think this might catch on and more people are going to, you know,

maybe you might have said, you know what? There's a really passionate community of plant based, you know, around this plant based lifestyle. And I think this is gonna get bigger. I think people are gonna more people are gonna I think this might catch on and more people are going to, you know,

52:45

wander this way.

wander this way.

52:48

So it's either a trend you notice that, like, oh, there's a group of people who really care about this or there's a a movement happening that I find very interesting. But ultra marathons, whatever it is.

So it's either a trend you notice that, like, oh, there's a group of people who really care about this or there's a a movement happening that I find very interesting. But ultra marathons, whatever it is.

52:59

The second option, the second thing direction is just here's a gap I see. So where's

The second option, the second thing direction is just here's a gap I see. So where's

53:05

our audience is heavily entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, people who

our audience is heavily entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, people who

53:09

they live to solve problems. And, you know, I like to bring their attention to problems worth solving or, you know, things that are missing from different parts of the world rather than, maybe, you know, the the ten thousandth to do to do list app or whatever you could, you could go build. And so taking it in either direction, what comes to mind when I either say what trends and movements have you been noticing,

they live to solve problems. And, you know, I like to bring their attention to problems worth solving or, you know, things that are missing from different parts of the world rather than, maybe, you know, the the ten thousandth to do to do list app or whatever you could, you could go build. And so taking it in either direction, what comes to mind when I either say what trends and movements have you been noticing,

53:29

or what gaps,

or what gaps,

53:30

or opportunities do you see in your in your world

or opportunities do you see in your in your world

53:34

Yeah. I mean, I think I

Yeah. I mean, I think I

53:36

to answer that question,

to answer that question,

53:39

my head naturally goes to

my head naturally goes to

53:42

two polarities, young people and people that are getting older. So I'm a little bit older than you. So my interest is gonna be around areas of of longevity

two polarities, young people and people that are getting older. So I'm a little bit older than you. So my interest is gonna be around areas of of longevity

53:53

and meaning in a way that maybe, you know, you you're not in a position to really have to entertain in a meaningful way yet.

and meaning in a way that maybe, you know, you you're not in a position to really have to entertain in a meaningful way yet.

54:01

And then

And then

54:02

with young people,

with young people,

54:04

it's equally about meaning. So what I see happening right now on a macro level is a whole generation of young people who are coming up

it's equally about meaning. So what I see happening right now on a macro level is a whole generation of young people who are coming up

54:13

into a world and thinking about their professional

into a world and thinking about their professional

54:16

trajectory

trajectory

54:17

in the context of meaning in a way that was not really part of the thought process of my generation being Genex.

in the context of meaning in a way that was not really part of the thought process of my generation being Genex.

54:25

They don't wanna just find the best job that's gonna pay them the most. They wanna plug in to the thing

They don't wanna just find the best job that's gonna pay them the most. They wanna plug in to the thing

54:31

that,

that,

54:32

feels like it's making a difference in the world in a positive way. And I think that's really cool. It's easy to make fun of gen z and

feels like it's making a difference in the world in a positive way. And I think that's really cool. It's easy to make fun of gen z and

54:39

you know, a lot of the kind of tropes around,

you know, a lot of the kind of tropes around,

54:42

you know, the where young people are at right now, but I'm very inspired by that sensibility

you know, the where young people are at right now, but I'm very inspired by that sensibility

54:48

because it was lacking in, you know, kind of my

because it was lacking in, you know, kind of my

54:51

my,

my,

54:53

you know, the the on you. We of the GenX which was to not what was cool was to not care about anything and to be cynical.

you know, the the on you. We of the GenX which was to not what was cool was to not care about anything and to be cynical.

55:01

And so, you know, I'm very refreshed by that,

And so, you know, I'm very refreshed by that,

55:05

focus that I see in so many young people. And I and I think on the other extreme

focus that I see in so many young people. And I and I think on the other extreme

55:10

with people that are, you know, more in my age bracket, who have kind of been in the professional world, done whatever they're gonna do, and are are realizing to some degree

with people that are, you know, more in my age bracket, who have kind of been in the professional world, done whatever they're gonna do, and are are realizing to some degree

55:20

or or not. Like,

or or not. Like,

55:22

How happy am I? How much meaning has this path that I chose for myself given me? And whether or not I stay in this path or find something new how can I bring more meaning into my lived experience both professionally

How happy am I? How much meaning has this path that I chose for myself given me? And whether or not I stay in this path or find something new how can I bring more meaning into my lived experience both professionally

55:36

and and and socially

and and and socially

55:39

for the decades to follow? And I see shared DNA between

for the decades to follow? And I see shared DNA between

55:44

that young cohort and that older cohort.

that young cohort and that older cohort.

55:46

And what I make of that is this,

And what I make of that is this,

55:51

groundswell

groundswell

55:52

of interest in

of interest in

55:54

happiness contentment.

happiness contentment.

55:56

And the,

And the,

55:57

the pillars of what it means to pursue a life that will

the pillars of what it means to pursue a life that will

56:02

not just sustain you, but really allow you to feel

not just sustain you, but really allow you to feel

56:06

authentically expressed in in who you are.

authentically expressed in in who you are.

56:10

I like that. And if you were,

I like that. And if you were,

56:14

kind of like, not if not the it's not the sort of question. Like, if you were twenty one again today, what would you go do? But sort of like,

kind of like, not if not the it's not the sort of question. Like, if you were twenty one again today, what would you go do? But sort of like,

56:22

how would you act on that? So you observe this behavioral mindset shift

how would you act on that? So you observe this behavioral mindset shift

56:27

in both, let's say, the older generation then and the younger generation.

in both, let's say, the older generation then and the younger generation.

56:32

What do you do with that? How would you

What do you do with that? How would you

56:35

What is the rich role approach

What is the rich role approach

56:38

to acting on that insight?

to acting on that insight?

56:42

As a young person, Yeah. If you just as a person with time on there. Yeah. Let's say it doesn't matter how old you are. It's just as a person who who Yeah. If you didn't have, like, a thousand things to do, and you weren't already committed to x y z job or project. You so you had some freedom. And you were interested in that. You saw that that observation. What would you do to act on it? How would you approach it? Yeah.

As a young person, Yeah. If you just as a person with time on there. Yeah. Let's say it doesn't matter how old you are. It's just as a person who who Yeah. If you didn't have, like, a thousand things to do, and you weren't already committed to x y z job or project. You so you had some freedom. And you were interested in that. You saw that that observation. What would you do to act on it? How would you approach it? Yeah.

57:02

I mean, I think with with young people, one thing I always tell young people is to invest in experience and and opt out of the pressures of the rat race to plug right into some kind of career trajectory.

I mean, I think with with young people, one thing I always tell young people is to invest in experience and and opt out of the pressures of the rat race to plug right into some kind of career trajectory.

57:16

Because there's an undue

Because there's an undue

57:19

expectation with young people that they're supposed to know who they are and what they wanna do with their lives. At an age when their brains are are are barely formed. And, you know, I think it's important for young people to go out and have as many experiences as possible

expectation with young people that they're supposed to know who they are and what they wanna do with their lives. At an age when their brains are are are barely formed. And, you know, I think it's important for young people to go out and have as many experiences as possible

57:35

before they make a certain particular choice about how they wanna live their life because how can you make that choice until you've been exposed to a lot of different things, until you've traveled and spent time with all different kinds of people.

before they make a certain particular choice about how they wanna live their life because how can you make that choice until you've been exposed to a lot of different things, until you've traveled and spent time with all different kinds of people.

57:48

For the older people, I think it's about,

For the older people, I think it's about,

57:53

reprogramming

reprogramming

57:54

you. Like, if you've been on a certain path and trajectory for a very long time, we become very calcified

you. Like, if you've been on a certain path and trajectory for a very long time, we become very calcified

58:00

around who we think we are. And we have to free ourselves

around who we think we are. And we have to free ourselves

58:03

from that narrative or that story

from that narrative or that story

58:06

and begin to build the muscle of connecting with our intuition

and begin to build the muscle of connecting with our intuition

58:11

and starting to bring expression to the things that,

and starting to bring expression to the things that,

58:15

that I think innately bring us joy that perhaps we've

that I think innately bring us joy that perhaps we've

58:18

we've kind of repressed or or put in the rearview mirror because we haven't had the time or the energy or the money or whatever to indulge them, and on the subject of indulgence

we've kind of repressed or or put in the rearview mirror because we haven't had the time or the energy or the money or whatever to indulge them, and on the subject of indulgence

58:30

to disabuse people of the idea that it is an indulgence or that it is selfish. So you know, the the the the path, I think, for that person,

to disabuse people of the idea that it is an indulgence or that it is selfish. So you know, the the the the path, I think, for that person,

58:40

is to really start paying attention.

is to really start paying attention.

58:43

To themselves

To themselves

58:44

to what gets them excited, to things that, you know, they just find themselves naturally in inclined towards and to start to, you know, water that garden or feed that energy because I think in doing that, it kind of leads you on a path towards some form of expression

to what gets them excited, to things that, you know, they just find themselves naturally in inclined towards and to start to, you know, water that garden or feed that energy because I think in doing that, it kind of leads you on a path towards some form of expression

59:02

that will

that will

59:03

ultimately, you know, bring meaning and and greater fulfillment into your life.

ultimately, you know, bring meaning and and greater fulfillment into your life.

59:08

Well, I think that's a good place to to close it. Rich, thanks for coming on, man. I I I really appreciate it.

Well, I think that's a good place to to close it. Rich, thanks for coming on, man. I I I really appreciate it.

59:14

Give people a a shout out where they should find you or subscriber to the podcast? Where where do you wanna direct people if they want more?

Give people a a shout out where they should find you or subscriber to the podcast? Where where do you wanna direct people if they want more?

59:21

Yeah. Sure. Thanks for having me. The it's just rich roll dot com r I c h r o l l dot com is my website where you can find everything, the rich roll podcast,

Yeah. Sure. Thanks for having me. The it's just rich roll dot com r I c h r o l l dot com is my website where you can find everything, the rich roll podcast,

59:30

which is available wherever you listen to podcasts, and the YouTube channel, riskroll dot com.

which is available wherever you listen to podcasts, and the YouTube channel, riskroll dot com.

59:36

Those are those would be the places. And, you can learn all about me there.

Those are those would be the places. And, you can learn all about me there.

59:41

Awesome. Thanks so much.

Awesome. Thanks so much.

59:43

Cool. Thank you. Really appreciate talking to you. That was super fun.

Cool. Thank you. Really appreciate talking to you. That was super fun.

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