00:00

When we were getting to know you guys to decide, like, do we wanna do this? Do we wanna actually partner with you guys and and do a deal together?

When we were getting to know you guys to decide, like, do we wanna do this? Do we wanna actually partner with you guys and and do a deal together?

00:08

We would ask you a bunch of questions, like at dinners or at the bar or whatever. And

We would ask you a bunch of questions, like at dinners or at the bar or whatever. And

00:13

your guys' stories and answers were so entertaining

your guys' stories and answers were so entertaining

00:17

that I was, like,

that I was, like,

00:18

See guys need to come on the podcast. If the I was like, if I had just recorded this dinner,

See guys need to come on the podcast. If the I was like, if I had just recorded this dinner,

00:23

this would have been, like, one of the best podcast episodes we've heard about. Probably the best.

this would have been, like, one of the best podcast episodes we've heard about. Probably the best.

00:34

What's up y'all, Sean here? This is special episode. My company, the Mill Grove just got acquired. So the news is out.

What's up y'all, Sean here? This is special episode. My company, the Mill Grove just got acquired. So the news is out.

00:41

And, I can finally talk I've been kinda hinting at it on the podcast for those who are listening.

And, I can finally talk I've been kinda hinting at it on the podcast for those who are listening.

00:46

And, yeah, if the news is out, and this episode is me and the dudes who bought So you're gonna meet these guys and you're gonna see who why would I sell? Right? Like, we started this thing. It grew like crazy. It was profitable. Like, the thing was working.

And, yeah, if the news is out, and this episode is me and the dudes who bought So you're gonna meet these guys and you're gonna see who why would I sell? Right? Like, we started this thing. It grew like crazy. It was profitable. Like, the thing was working.

01:00

So why sell? And I talked a little bit about that, but the biggest reason, honestly, was

So why sell? And I talked a little bit about that, but the biggest reason, honestly, was

01:05

these guys, these are people that I wanted to be able to work with and get to know better. And there are people that I thought if I give them,

these guys, these are people that I wanted to be able to work with and get to know better. And there are people that I thought if I give them,

01:12

you know, this company and I own I still own a minority stake in it. That minority stake in five years is gonna be worth a lot because I believe in these guys and what they've done. They've done it before. They've built and sold companies worth, you know, over, hundreds of millions of dollars.

you know, this company and I own I still own a minority stake in it. That minority stake in five years is gonna be worth a lot because I believe in these guys and what they've done. They've done it before. They've built and sold companies worth, you know, over, hundreds of millions of dollars.

01:26

I think they're gonna do it again here.

I think they're gonna do it again here.

01:28

This the the episode is a little funny. It starts off a little slow.

This the the episode is a little funny. It starts off a little slow.

01:33

But then around fifteen minutes in, We're done talking about the acquisition. And I'm frankly, I'm done talking a little bit. And I let these guys shine, and they tell stories about, you know, how their early projects, like, how they, you know, all the different projects they worked on, some that failed spectacularly

But then around fifteen minutes in, We're done talking about the acquisition. And I'm frankly, I'm done talking a little bit. And I let these guys shine, and they tell stories about, you know, how their early projects, like, how they, you know, all the different projects they worked on, some that failed spectacularly

01:48

and some that succeeded.

and some that succeeded.

01:50

You know, their philosophy around business and negotiations and stuff like that. It gets really good after that. So definitely stick through if you like this podcast, like, if you like my first million, you will like these guys.

You know, their philosophy around business and negotiations and stuff like that. It gets really good after that. So definitely stick through if you like this podcast, like, if you like my first million, you will like these guys.

02:02

I'm gonna just I'll build the characters. You got Mike, who is this, like,

I'm gonna just I'll build the characters. You got Mike, who is this, like,

02:07

workforce. So anybody who likes, you know, a grinder somebody who's scrappy, who's somebody who can bounce back from defeat. He tells a ton of stories about, like, basically getting his ass kicked, almost failing, and then somehow pulling it off.

workforce. So anybody who likes, you know, a grinder somebody who's scrappy, who's somebody who can bounce back from defeat. He tells a ton of stories about, like, basically getting his ass kicked, almost failing, and then somehow pulling it off.

02:19

So Mike is this workhorse

So Mike is this workhorse

02:21

of a guy. I've gotten to see him in action with the milk road. This guy is, like, lives in the details and in the weeds. It's amazing.

of a guy. I've gotten to see him in action with the milk road. This guy is, like, lives in the details and in the weeds. It's amazing.

02:28

And then Kendall is the opposite. He's like, how can I work smarter, not harder? He's the mister shortcut He is the guy who finds a way,

And then Kendall is the opposite. He's like, how can I work smarter, not harder? He's the mister shortcut He is the guy who finds a way,

02:37

to make something happen. Right? Like, you know, he, you know, he's the guy who hacked the Tesla referral program and ended up getting multiple Tesla roadsters. And he's the guy who did the same thing with Uber and Lyft and has, like, you know, Uber credits for life and lift for it credits for life. He's just a guy who's gonna solve the puzzle

to make something happen. Right? Like, you know, he, you know, he's the guy who hacked the Tesla referral program and ended up getting multiple Tesla roadsters. And he's the guy who did the same thing with Uber and Lyft and has, like, you know, Uber credits for life and lift for it credits for life. He's just a guy who's gonna solve the puzzle

02:53

and, and get the shortcut solution. He'll he will find the clever the clever way to get it done. So these two guys are awesome. And, and I think you guys you guys will like them. So enjoy this episode.

and, and get the shortcut solution. He'll he will find the clever the clever way to get it done. So these two guys are awesome. And, and I think you guys you guys will like them. So enjoy this episode.

03:04

Alright. So we should we should do this. So

Alright. So we should we should do this. So

03:07

welcome to the show. I've been telling you guys, you gotta come on for a couple of months now, and I'm glad we're doing this. So we will I think we should frame this in a couple of ways. We got together because you guys just bought my company. You bought the milk road. And so we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about

welcome to the show. I've been telling you guys, you gotta come on for a couple of months now, and I'm glad we're doing this. So we will I think we should frame this in a couple of ways. We got together because you guys just bought my company. You bought the milk road. And so we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about

03:23

how that happened, how that went down, why you guys decided to do it, good stuff like that. Then

how that happened, how that went down, why you guys decided to do it, good stuff like that. Then

03:28

gonna talk a little bit about, you know, what's the plan. But, really, the thing I thought would be

gonna talk a little bit about, you know, what's the plan. But, really, the thing I thought would be

03:34

the best out of this conversation. My sort of secret plan was we were getting to know you guys to decide, like, do we wanna do this? Do we wanna actually partner with you guys and and do a deal together?

the best out of this conversation. My sort of secret plan was we were getting to know you guys to decide, like, do we wanna do this? Do we wanna actually partner with you guys and and do a deal together?

03:45

We would ask you a bunch of questions, like at dinners or at the bar or whatever. And

We would ask you a bunch of questions, like at dinners or at the bar or whatever. And

03:50

your guys' stories and answers were so entertaining

your guys' stories and answers were so entertaining

03:54

that I was, like,

that I was, like,

03:56

These guys need to come on the podcast. If the I was like, if I had just recorded this dinner,

These guys need to come on the podcast. If the I was like, if I had just recorded this dinner,

04:01

this would have been, like, one of the best podcast episodes we've ever done. Probably the best. And so then I was like, alright.

this would have been, like, one of the best podcast episodes we've ever done. Probably the best. And so then I was like, alright.

04:07

My job here is to somehow

My job here is to somehow

04:09

recreate that dinner. Because, actually, there's a lot of pressure. I know

recreate that dinner. Because, actually, there's a lot of pressure. I know

04:13

good this episode could be if I do my job.

good this episode could be if I do my job.

04:16

And,

And,

04:17

usually with a guest, you know, hey, they show up, they do whatever they're gonna in this case, I've heard the stories myself. So I gotta find a way to to recreate that. So that's my challenge. You guys, it's it should be easy. It's, you know,

usually with a guest, you know, hey, they show up, they do whatever they're gonna in this case, I've heard the stories myself. So I gotta find a way to to recreate that. So that's my challenge. You guys, it's it should be easy. It's, you know,

04:28

just you're you're gonna tell your stories. And I think at the end of this, people will know a little bit about what happened with the milk road, but also a lot about you guys. Cause I became a fan of you during the process of doing the deal, I think a lot of other people are gonna become fans of you guys too during this. Because you guys are pretty low key. And why is that? Why are you guys, like, so under the radar? And I asked this as a guy who's like, I'm constantly on the stage being like, look at me. Yeah. I'm great. And then I meet people who are really, really great, and they're not trying to do that. So what's the is it

just you're you're gonna tell your stories. And I think at the end of this, people will know a little bit about what happened with the milk road, but also a lot about you guys. Cause I became a fan of you during the process of doing the deal, I think a lot of other people are gonna become fans of you guys too during this. Because you guys are pretty low key. And why is that? Why are you guys, like, so under the radar? And I asked this as a guy who's like, I'm constantly on the stage being like, look at me. Yeah. I'm great. And then I meet people who are really, really great, and they're not trying to do that. So what's the is it

04:57

don't have time? Is it shy. What's the reason that you don't do that? Let's start with you. I think it's probably shy. And it's just something that I never thought I needed to do.

don't have time? Is it shy. What's the reason that you don't do that? Let's start with you. I think it's probably shy. And it's just something that I never thought I needed to do.

05:07

And then when I met you, I'm like, I'm doing everything all wrong. But we had a hilarious day where

And then when I met you, I'm like, I'm doing everything all wrong. But we had a hilarious day where

05:13

I don't know how this happened.

I don't know how this happened.

05:15

But somehow when we were hanging out, in San Francisco where I I usually don't the joke on the pot is I don't leave my house. But when I do leave my house, once in a while, get bumped into and be like, oh, hey. Love the pod. For some reason that day, something was going my way. And, like, I don't know, like, six or seven people

But somehow when we were hanging out, in San Francisco where I I usually don't the joke on the pot is I don't leave my house. But when I do leave my house, once in a while, get bumped into and be like, oh, hey. Love the pod. For some reason that day, something was going my way. And, like, I don't know, like, six or seven people

05:32

stopped us in a row, and you guys must have been, like, the hell is going? What was your reaction to that? I was like, did you plan this? I could not believe how many people were coming up to you and know, I'm a big fan of the pod. I'm doing this project. I did a MFM search engine. Like, it was insane. Yeah. That was pretty crazy. Yeah. Like, the guy from the hospital. He's like, I just came from the hospital, like, for Sean. That was a little I don't know what that means. I was like, just security cameras. Yeah. He's he said he goes. I just came from the hospital,

stopped us in a row, and you guys must have been, like, the hell is going? What was your reaction to that? I was like, did you plan this? I could not believe how many people were coming up to you and know, I'm a big fan of the pod. I'm doing this project. I did a MFM search engine. Like, it was insane. Yeah. That was pretty crazy. Yeah. Like, the guy from the hospital. He's like, I just came from the hospital, like, for Sean. That was a little I don't know what that means. I was like, just security cameras. Yeah. He's he said he goes. I just came from the hospital,

06:01

and then

and then

06:03

we're like, oh, okay. And then later, somebody was, like, Why did he come from a hospital? Like, did anybody catch that? Yeah. We had no explanation of it. Because he had, like, a, you know, like, the patient has escaped, you know, sticker on a on a shirt, basically.

we're like, oh, okay. And then later, somebody was, like, Why did he come from a hospital? Like, did anybody catch that? Yeah. We had no explanation of it. Because he had, like, a, you know, like, the patient has escaped, you know, sticker on a on a shirt, basically.

06:18

But I'm glad you guys are doing it. So let's start with the milk road.

But I'm glad you guys are doing it. So let's start with the milk road.

06:21

People wanna know,

People wanna know,

06:23

you know, the news just came out today. This pod will come out right after that.

you know, the news just came out today. This pod will come out right after that.

06:27

We sold it. And people wanna know how that went down. I can tell it from my perspective, but maybe, I don't know. Let's do it from your perspective.

We sold it. And people wanna know how that went down. I can tell it from my perspective, but maybe, I don't know. Let's do it from your perspective.

06:35

How did how did this all happen? Yeah. For sure. So Carter, who is our finance,

How did how did this all happen? Yeah. For sure. So Carter, who is our finance,

06:41

was a big fan. And he shared it with us, Mike and I. And we subscribed to it. And every time we'd open it, we're like, ugh, they're doing it so well. They're doing it a while back or, like, three six months ago. Okay. And You know, every time we read it, we we talked about it. We talked about the memes, how funny it was, but also how informative

was a big fan. And he shared it with us, Mike and I. And we subscribed to it. And every time we'd open it, we're like, ugh, they're doing it so well. They're doing it a while back or, like, three six months ago. Okay. And You know, every time we read it, we we talked about it. We talked about the memes, how funny it was, but also how informative

06:59

it was. And that's kind of what we're trying to do with BIFO is just like make the best content and actually have people read it. I feel like, you know, you could have ten thousand words, but that doesn't mean much to people. It's like, how do we get that seven hundred and fifty

it was. And that's kind of what we're trying to do with BIFO is just like make the best content and actually have people read it. I feel like, you know, you could have ten thousand words, but that doesn't mean much to people. It's like, how do we get that seven hundred and fifty

07:14

words that really punches. Yeah. And I feel like that's what you guys have done. And, you know, it came to a point where I'm like, we should talk to these guys. At that point, we hadn't. Yeah. And I think we reached out to you guys. I remember having a conversation with Ben about growth, and it was like, Ben, you know, those, like, sites that are just, like, I don't know, what's the price of bitcoin? What's the price of Ethereum? I was like, what if we just go on there and, like, go know. So I was, like, I'd better tell. I was, like, it's probably just, like, some nineteen year old kid, like, just offer him, like, a dollar for every email subscriber. Let's just see if they'll put it at put our ad up. And I think that's how we reached out. Right? He got in touch with one of you guys about that. Ben reached out to I don't even know who somebody

words that really punches. Yeah. And I feel like that's what you guys have done. And, you know, it came to a point where I'm like, we should talk to these guys. At that point, we hadn't. Yeah. And I think we reached out to you guys. I remember having a conversation with Ben about growth, and it was like, Ben, you know, those, like, sites that are just, like, I don't know, what's the price of bitcoin? What's the price of Ethereum? I was like, what if we just go on there and, like, go know. So I was, like, I'd better tell. I was, like, it's probably just, like, some nineteen year old kid, like, just offer him, like, a dollar for every email subscriber. Let's just see if they'll put it at put our ad up. And I think that's how we reached out. Right? He got in touch with one of you guys about that. Ben reached out to I don't even know who somebody

07:50

got back to us and wasn't something we were gonna do. We weren't it was like offering a dollar per sub or whatever. Turns how you weren't a kid. Yeah. You're actually thirty two. We weren't seventeen.

got back to us and wasn't something we were gonna do. We weren't it was like offering a dollar per sub or whatever. Turns how you weren't a kid. Yeah. You're actually thirty two. We weren't seventeen.

08:00

But we just wanted to meet you guys to work. Let's take the meeting. And,

But we just wanted to meet you guys to work. Let's take the meeting. And,

08:04

yeah, about ten minutes into that. We were messaging on the side. It's like we gotta buy this thing. Got to figure out a way. The funny thing is I don't know if I told you this, but that same day,

yeah, about ten minutes into that. We were messaging on the side. It's like we gotta buy this thing. Got to figure out a way. The funny thing is I don't know if I told you this, but that same day,

08:12

like, we had just been full force working on milk road. This is the best It's gonna be awesome. Yep. Dude, we're just everyday and, like, I'm a big, like, pat on the back, self pat on the back kinda guy. Everyday, I'd basically tell Ben This is amazing. We've launched this thing and only in this many months, we're already growing this fast. It's gonna be so good. This many years in, but, you know, it's gonna be great. And then one day, I just hit Ben with a curveball in Slack, and this was the same day. I go

like, we had just been full force working on milk road. This is the best It's gonna be awesome. Yep. Dude, we're just everyday and, like, I'm a big, like, pat on the back, self pat on the back kinda guy. Everyday, I'd basically tell Ben This is amazing. We've launched this thing and only in this many months, we're already growing this fast. It's gonna be so good. This many years in, but, you know, it's gonna be great. And then one day, I just hit Ben with a curveball in Slack, and this was the same day. I go

08:35

I go, how much would you sell this for right now? And,

I go, how much would you sell this for right now? And,

08:38

he's like, what? Like, I don't Do you wanna sell it? And I was like, well, I did that's not what I said. I said, how much would you sell it for? I know. He's like, maybe this number. And I was like, yeah, I think my number's like, you know, that plus one. And he was like,

he's like, what? Like, I don't Do you wanna sell it? And I was like, well, I did that's not what I said. I said, how much would you sell it for? I know. He's like, maybe this number. And I was like, yeah, I think my number's like, you know, that plus one. And he was like,

08:49

And he was like, okay.

And he was like, okay.

08:51

What do we do with that? And I was like, let's see if we could sell it. And I was, like, I'm very impulsive like that. Like, I was wake up one day.

What do we do with that? And I was like, let's see if we could sell it. And I was, like, I'm very impulsive like that. Like, I was wake up one day.

08:58

How I got my dog. I just woke up one day and I just Hey, get in the car. We're gonna go let's go find a dog. And we were, like, Craig's listing in the car to find dogs. And gotta talk that day. And that's kinda what happened with this. And so literally, he tell calls me back later that afternoon. And he's like,

How I got my dog. I just woke up one day and I just Hey, get in the car. We're gonna go let's go find a dog. And we were, like, Craig's listing in the car to find dogs. And gotta talk that day. And that's kinda what happened with this. And so literally, he tell calls me back later that afternoon. And he's like,

09:11

dude, it's so weird. I just talked to these guys, and they mentioned on the call if you'd ever be interested, blah blah blah. And I was like, well, who are they? I, you know, I never heard of these guys.

dude, it's so weird. I just talked to these guys, and they mentioned on the call if you'd ever be interested, blah blah blah. And I was like, well, who are they? I, you know, I never heard of these guys.

09:21

And he's like, no. They're legit. And I was like, what? He's like, yeah. I googled him and whatever. And, like, he's like, one of them. It built, like, the largest know how you describe it. Like, the largest gold website. Yeah. Go to e commerce precious metals e commerce. Press metal e commerce site. So, basically, j m bullion is the name of it. If you wanna go buy, sell gold, silver, whatever. You can go do it there. And I knew that name because my brother-in-law buys from James Williams. Right? So he's he had been telling me, you know, as he's like stashing away little, like, coins in his safe. I'm like, alright, good for you, man.

And he's like, no. They're legit. And I was like, what? He's like, yeah. I googled him and whatever. And, like, he's like, one of them. It built, like, the largest know how you describe it. Like, the largest gold website. Yeah. Go to e commerce precious metals e commerce. Press metal e commerce site. So, basically, j m bullion is the name of it. If you wanna go buy, sell gold, silver, whatever. You can go do it there. And I knew that name because my brother-in-law buys from James Williams. Right? So he's he had been telling me, you know, as he's like stashing away little, like, coins in his safe. I'm like, alright, good for you, man.

09:52

He had been screwing up his order. Yeah. Yeah. He he gets it every time and he's like, you know, whatever. He's hoarding gold. So

He had been screwing up his order. Yeah. Yeah. He he gets it every time and he's like, you know, whatever. He's hoarding gold. So

10:01

you guys, you had built that. That was a couple hundred million dollar company.

you guys, you had built that. That was a couple hundred million dollar company.

10:05

And then you had done the same thing in the sports betting side. Same thing, like, roughly a hundred million dollars worth of exits. And I was like, oh, these guys are actually

And then you had done the same thing in the sports betting side. Same thing, like, roughly a hundred million dollars worth of exits. And I was like, oh, these guys are actually

10:13

Super legit. Okay.

Super legit. Okay.

10:15

Scratch the whole nineteen year old kid offering a dollar. Let's see what we can get these guys to offer us. And then that's sort of how the deal.

Scratch the whole nineteen year old kid offering a dollar. Let's see what we can get these guys to offer us. And then that's sort of how the deal.

10:23

Evolved from there. And so

Evolved from there. And so

10:25

so that's like how we met,

so that's like how we met,

10:27

then actually making a deal.

then actually making a deal.

10:29

Somebody said this the other day they go, the rule of they call it the rule of five. They go in any deal, it's gonna follow fall apart five times. If it's gonna get if it's gonna get done, it's gonna fall apart five times. And I think we kinda did that. Oh, we did. Maybe three or four times at at least,

Somebody said this the other day they go, the rule of they call it the rule of five. They go in any deal, it's gonna follow fall apart five times. If it's gonna get if it's gonna get done, it's gonna fall apart five times. And I think we kinda did that. Oh, we did. Maybe three or four times at at least,

10:44

along the way. I do have a question about it, which is

along the way. I do have a question about it, which is

10:48

Not just how it all happened, but it's a question I've been wanting to ask, and I get to put you guys on the spot here.

Not just how it all happened, but it's a question I've been wanting to ask, and I get to put you guys on the spot here.

10:54

Could we have negotiated better? So I asked Ben. I go, what what could we ask these guys on the potty? He goes,

Could we have negotiated better? So I asked Ben. I go, what what could we ask these guys on the potty? He goes,

10:59

yeah, ask him about the deal negotiation. I go, yeah. I should ask him Could we have gotten more? Because that was the the my first acquisition. That was the question I asked, the CEO, and he was like, you couldn't have got a dollar more. And I was like, feels good, but it feels like a lie.

yeah, ask him about the deal negotiation. I go, yeah. I should ask him Could we have gotten more? Because that was the the my first acquisition. That was the question I asked, the CEO, and he was like, you couldn't have got a dollar more. And I was like, feels good, but it feels like a lie.

11:12

It's never actually the case. So from your guys' perspective, how did we negotiate? Give us a grade and, tell us how we did. I would say it was,

It's never actually the case. So from your guys' perspective, how did we negotiate? Give us a grade and, tell us how we did. I would say it was,

11:21

a minus?

a minus?

11:22

I was gonna say a b. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I would give everyone almost a b around, you know, the table. I feel like each one of us at one point kind of were like, this isn't gonna work. Mhmm. And it wasn't as kind of straightforward as you'd like a deal. But as you said, both my deals every time I was like, it's not gonna work. You know, for one reason or another, you get to the point of

I was gonna say a b. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I would give everyone almost a b around, you know, the table. I feel like each one of us at one point kind of were like, this isn't gonna work. Mhmm. And it wasn't as kind of straightforward as you'd like a deal. But as you said, both my deals every time I was like, it's not gonna work. You know, for one reason or another, you get to the point of

11:44

they're over here. I'm over here, and we're not getting anywhere close. Right.

they're over here. I'm over here, and we're not getting anywhere close. Right.

11:49

And then, you know, you figure it out or you walk away. And, you know, we had those walkaways,

And then, you know, you figure it out or you walk away. And, you know, we had those walkaways,

11:53

with you, I think, twice. Yeah. Yeah. I think you guys did it one time, and we did it another time. Suday minus because at the end, like, when we made that final, you know, the last little chunk -- Yeah. -- we were that was it for us. We had said we're walking if this doesn't work.

with you, I think, twice. Yeah. Yeah. I think you guys did it one time, and we did it another time. Suday minus because at the end, like, when we made that final, you know, the last little chunk -- Yeah. -- we were that was it for us. We had said we're walking if this doesn't work.

12:08

We talked about this last night. I think one thing that would have helped a lot, so he has a non compete on gambling as we talked about.

We talked about this last night. I think one thing that would have helped a lot, so he has a non compete on gambling as we talked about.

12:14

And

And

12:15

you know, one of the times that fell apart was we got into the diligence after we'd already agreed on a number and there was Found out I was a degenerate.

you know, one of the times that fell apart was we got into the diligence after we'd already agreed on a number and there was Found out I was a degenerate.

12:24

There's a little more gambling limit. A gambling sponsor revenue there than we thought. And I think that if that had come out a lot earlier,

There's a little more gambling limit. A gambling sponsor revenue there than we thought. And I think that if that had come out a lot earlier,

12:30

you guys probably could have guided us better to, Well, for next month, we're gonna target this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't know that was a problem. We were like, because it's not in front of me. We we don't have a non compete. So, like, this is great.

you guys probably could have guided us better to, Well, for next month, we're gonna target this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't know that was a problem. We were like, because it's not in front of me. We we don't have a non compete. So, like, this is great.

12:41

Yeah. That's alright. That's that's good. Yeah. We didn't talk about it at dinner. You did? Yeah. Well, we met you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. At at that dinner,

Yeah. That's alright. That's that's good. Yeah. We didn't talk about it at dinner. You did? Yeah. Well, we met you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. At at that dinner,

12:50

Alright. So let's talk about, you know, how this deal kind of evolves. Why do you buy a business like this? What's the what's the thinking? What's the rationale? And

Alright. So let's talk about, you know, how this deal kind of evolves. Why do you buy a business like this? What's the what's the thinking? What's the rationale? And

12:59

You guys have been on the seller side. You've sold your businesses. What's the difference in in the mentality there? Mike, you wanna take this one? Yeah. So, you know, reason we bought you guys, we felt like everything we were doing was just gonna work a lot better on their brand. And so, like, the SEO play, which is our thing, you know, we're building these content driven sites that we wanna rank in Google for, you know, money terms in crypto, like, buy Bitcoin, lend Bitcoin, all those sorts of things.

You guys have been on the seller side. You've sold your businesses. What's the difference in in the mentality there? Mike, you wanna take this one? Yeah. So, you know, reason we bought you guys, we felt like everything we were doing was just gonna work a lot better on their brand. And so, like, the SEO play, which is our thing, you know, we're building these content driven sites that we wanna rank in Google for, you know, money terms in crypto, like, buy Bitcoin, lend Bitcoin, all those sorts of things.

13:24

Yeah. We we should explain your guys' magic. Your superpower. Your your superpower is Somebody goes to Google and they say

Yeah. We we should explain your guys' magic. Your superpower. Your your superpower is Somebody goes to Google and they say

13:32

buy gold online. Best place to buy gold. Best place to

buy gold online. Best place to buy gold. Best place to

13:36

you know, bet, you know, on whatever.

you know, bet, you know, on whatever.

13:39

And your guys' whole career basically is ranked number one for that. And you did it with the sports betting and the gold, but before that, you did it with poker. Before that, you did it with other stuff and like we'll go into some of those funny funny stories in a second.

And your guys' whole career basically is ranked number one for that. And you did it with the sports betting and the gold, but before that, you did it with poker. Before that, you did it with other stuff and like we'll go into some of those funny funny stories in a second.

13:53

But that's your guys' secret sauce

But that's your guys' secret sauce

13:55

to which

to which

13:56

I was like, why do they need a newsletter? The newsletter doesn't do that. That's that's not the answer. But there is some

I was like, why do they need a newsletter? The newsletter doesn't do that. That's that's not the answer. But there is some

14:02

datto synergy there for you. Yeah. So it's, you know, just this brand component of, like, Google has really moved towards rewarding brands that users are actually going to Google and searching for. Like, milk road is being searched hundreds of times a day, and that's such an indicator to Google of like humans are interested in this brand. Same with J. M. J. M. Is giving thousands of searches a day for J. M. Boy. And so, like, when we were building our sites, like, defy rate dot com, was the one that we merged into Milk Road, no one's out there really looking for this site. You know, we're just trying to figure out how to get it out on Google. So eventually, it will become a brand. So for us, it was like, hey, we're we get to jump forward a year in this journey. If we buy this newsletter, buy the website, roll it in, and then, you know, reap these benefits forever more. You're gonna continue to get really amazing backlinks because you do all these awesome interviews.

datto synergy there for you. Yeah. So it's, you know, just this brand component of, like, Google has really moved towards rewarding brands that users are actually going to Google and searching for. Like, milk road is being searched hundreds of times a day, and that's such an indicator to Google of like humans are interested in this brand. Same with J. M. J. M. Is giving thousands of searches a day for J. M. Boy. And so, like, when we were building our sites, like, defy rate dot com, was the one that we merged into Milk Road, no one's out there really looking for this site. You know, we're just trying to figure out how to get it out on Google. So eventually, it will become a brand. So for us, it was like, hey, we're we get to jump forward a year in this journey. If we buy this newsletter, buy the website, roll it in, and then, you know, reap these benefits forever more. You're gonna continue to get really amazing backlinks because you do all these awesome interviews.

14:45

It was, you know, that was my my piece. And I think too, it's really complimentary. You know, like the newsletter content could go on the website. You know, we'd be able to be in the inbox of our users along with, hey, you know, there's a different segment of our users that are gonna go to our website. And so, you know, those type of,

It was, you know, that was my my piece. And I think too, it's really complimentary. You know, like the newsletter content could go on the website. You know, we'd be able to be in the inbox of our users along with, hey, you know, there's a different segment of our users that are gonna go to our website. And so, you know, those type of,

15:03

ways to, you know, reach people are, like, really exciting for us. And so that was kinda like, alright. They have the brand. They have a voice.

ways to, you know, reach people are, like, really exciting for us. And so that was kinda like, alright. They have the brand. They have a voice.

15:12

And, you know, they have

And, you know, they have

15:14

you know, a really complimentary,

you know, a really complimentary,

15:17

you know.

you know.

15:18

And it was working during the bear market. Yeah. That's the biggest part. Our business was still growing and generating revenue and profit during the crypto winter, which is hard for because if you're not, like, you know, when Bitcoin's price goes down, there's a lot less people searching. How do I buy Bitcoin right now, you know? And so

And it was working during the bear market. Yeah. That's the biggest part. Our business was still growing and generating revenue and profit during the crypto winter, which is hard for because if you're not, like, you know, when Bitcoin's price goes down, there's a lot less people searching. How do I buy Bitcoin right now, you know? And so

15:33

or, like, you know, defi implodes or whatever, well, then people aren't looking to borrow or or lend at the same rates. So I think that also helps because there's, like, oh, this is a business that will work even in the winters. Yeah. And you had diversified advertisers. They're not all crypto companies. So we're like, yeah, this can work even if crypto is that for a while. And so the question on our side was, do we wanna sell? Right? Why sell? Do we wanna sell? And I think, you know, there's

or, like, you know, defi implodes or whatever, well, then people aren't looking to borrow or or lend at the same rates. So I think that also helps because there's, like, oh, this is a business that will work even in the winters. Yeah. And you had diversified advertisers. They're not all crypto companies. So we're like, yeah, this can work even if crypto is that for a while. And so the question on our side was, do we wanna sell? Right? Why sell? Do we wanna sell? And I think, you know, there's

15:55

probably a three pronged answer to that. The answer is first,

probably a three pronged answer to that. The answer is first,

16:01

a lot of decisions just get made through

a lot of decisions just get made through

16:04

like who your your nature, your personality. And I've gotten to know my nature a little bit over the last few years, and it is very much a

like who your your nature, your personality. And I've gotten to know my nature a little bit over the last few years, and it is very much a

16:12

I'm good at starting things. I'm good at finding the the the something from nothing,

I'm good at starting things. I'm good at finding the the the something from nothing,

16:17

but taking the something and just fine tuning it day after day, making it better. Which is where most of the values created in business is,

but taking the something and just fine tuning it day after day, making it better. Which is where most of the values created in business is,

16:26

not something that I just get super excited about. And so that was always hard for me because

not something that I just get super excited about. And so that was always hard for me because

16:30

I could create something, get it off the ground, get it to work. And then as it worked, my interest would fade. And, you know, so that was like a personal thing. I was I I sort of knew that. So I said, if if I'm getting a good deal now, but I know it'd be better if I held it for four years,

I could create something, get it off the ground, get it to work. And then as it worked, my interest would fade. And, you know, so that was like a personal thing. I was I I sort of knew that. So I said, if if I'm getting a good deal now, but I know it'd be better if I held it for four years,

16:45

Great. But am I really gonna have this same energy I have today? Four years from now? I can't know that that's true for me as a operator.

Great. But am I really gonna have this same energy I have today? Four years from now? I can't know that that's true for me as a operator.

16:52

Whereas about you guys and I'll I'll go into why I thought you guys would be much better owners of the business was

Whereas about you guys and I'll I'll go into why I thought you guys would be much better owners of the business was

16:58

you're like that.

you're like that.

16:59

Mike is a absolute animal work for workhorse. I actually,

Mike is a absolute animal work for workhorse. I actually,

17:04

like, we've been working together a little bit and I see your level of detail attention to detail

like, we've been working together a little bit and I see your level of detail attention to detail

17:10

is crazy. Like, you are looking at this email

is crazy. Like, you are looking at this email

17:13

know, like, in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening, then the feedback, and then do it again the next day. I love it. Yeah. I was like, wow. This guy is this guy's an animal.

know, like, in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening, then the feedback, and then do it again the next day. I love it. Yeah. I was like, wow. This guy is this guy's an animal.

17:23

And I thought, okay. Maybe he's just doing that at the beginning. No. That's just kinda who you are. Yeah. I mean, that was, you know, with JM, same thing, like myself and the the other partner who I ran that with. We were probably, like, the biggest readers of the Golden Silver subreddit, like, on the planet, because we just wanted to ingest all this. What are the people thinking? You know, and that's really we got so many wins just observing that, implementing those things. So I asked you guys some questions before the pod to get to, like, I made a Google block. And I was like, what do you do? Like, I don't know, for fun or something like that? Like, are you like

And I thought, okay. Maybe he's just doing that at the beginning. No. That's just kinda who you are. Yeah. I mean, that was, you know, with JM, same thing, like myself and the the other partner who I ran that with. We were probably, like, the biggest readers of the Golden Silver subreddit, like, on the planet, because we just wanted to ingest all this. What are the people thinking? You know, and that's really we got so many wins just observing that, implementing those things. So I asked you guys some questions before the pod to get to, like, I made a Google block. And I was like, what do you do? Like, I don't know, for fun or something like that? Like, are you like

17:53

and your one of your things was uphill

and your one of your things was uphill

17:56

skiing or something. Yeah. So I've I've got

skiing or something. Yeah. So I've I've got

18:00

a buddy that's gotten into backcountry skiing. So that's, like, instead of, you know, going to the resort riding the lift, you're just sort of in nature. It's a fun nice thing everybody likes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to, you know, manually get yourself up this hill. So,

a buddy that's gotten into backcountry skiing. So that's, like, instead of, you know, going to the resort riding the lift, you're just sort of in nature. It's a fun nice thing everybody likes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to, you know, manually get yourself up this hill. So,

18:13

a few years ago, he convince me to go do one of these things, and it was in, I think we're in Yellowstone Park. We didn't see another human the entire day. You're truly in the middle of your life. Are you liking basically up

a few years ago, he convince me to go do one of these things, and it was in, I think we're in Yellowstone Park. We didn't see another human the entire day. You're truly in the middle of your life. Are you liking basically up

18:26

for this, this was fairly tame. So, basically, it's it's a it's called a split board, what I use. So it's a It looks like a snowboard, but it breaks down the middle and the bindings rotate. So it basically turns into skis. And then you put these things on the bottom called skins. Which originally, I think used to, be sealed skin is is where it came from. Now it's just like some fancy fabric, and it'll only slide one way. So you can kinda, like, slide up the hill with poles. You're like cross country skiing up the hill, and then it won't slide backwards. Right. So, yeah, you like fight your way up the hill. It takes several hours to do this. It's like a five minute ride down, so there's not a huge payoff there. There's, like, no children coming down as you're, like, brutally climbing each by inch of the hill. Then the cool thing, you can do it at resorts too. So our trip this year, we were at, Whitefish Montana, and I was doing this in the resort. And you do get a lot of respect from people coming down the hill when you're trudging up the hill. So it's a good feeling. Yes. Yeah. No respect for me. I love your song. You make your life harder. Yeah. You are doing the wrong Sean's riding the lift up and down. Yeah. Exactly. I don't even get off. This is but that was, like, to me when I heard you say that, I was, like,

for this, this was fairly tame. So, basically, it's it's a it's called a split board, what I use. So it's a It looks like a snowboard, but it breaks down the middle and the bindings rotate. So it basically turns into skis. And then you put these things on the bottom called skins. Which originally, I think used to, be sealed skin is is where it came from. Now it's just like some fancy fabric, and it'll only slide one way. So you can kinda, like, slide up the hill with poles. You're like cross country skiing up the hill, and then it won't slide backwards. Right. So, yeah, you like fight your way up the hill. It takes several hours to do this. It's like a five minute ride down, so there's not a huge payoff there. There's, like, no children coming down as you're, like, brutally climbing each by inch of the hill. Then the cool thing, you can do it at resorts too. So our trip this year, we were at, Whitefish Montana, and I was doing this in the resort. And you do get a lot of respect from people coming down the hill when you're trudging up the hill. So it's a good feeling. Yes. Yeah. No respect for me. I love your song. You make your life harder. Yeah. You are doing the wrong Sean's riding the lift up and down. Yeah. Exactly. I don't even get off. This is but that was, like, to me when I heard you say that, I was, like,

19:31

checked out completely

checked out completely

19:33

the way you exercise or the, like, the way you vacation

the way you exercise or the, like, the way you vacation

19:36

basically is the way you work -- Yeah. -- which is just, like,

basically is the way you work -- Yeah. -- which is just, like,

19:40

maliacal grind. And I love that because

maliacal grind. And I love that because

19:43

that's if I mean, if you do that at any business, you're gonna increase the outcomes. And so because we still own, like, a a good sized chunk of the business.

that's if I mean, if you do that at any business, you're gonna increase the outcomes. And so because we still own, like, a a good sized chunk of the business.

19:50

And so, you know, I wanted to know that that was gonna be worth something someday. And so that would be the only way that I could bake this deal worth it was, okay, there's the upfront cash and all that good stuff. That's great.

And so, you know, I wanted to know that that was gonna be worth something someday. And so that would be the only way that I could bake this deal worth it was, okay, there's the upfront cash and all that good stuff. That's great.

20:01

But,

But,

20:02

boy's gonna spend that. I'm gonna blow through that through, you know, some some way.

boy's gonna spend that. I'm gonna blow through that through, you know, some some way.

20:07

So I need to know that, like, the what if, what could have been will actually get played out. And, like, that way I'll just my curiosity, I'll know. What would have happened if we had kept at and focused on it? Well, let me just hand as these guys who are super focused and let's just now we get to know. And then also there's, you know, you get the reward of it too if it if it had some work now. Yep. So that was one on your side that's like, that's Mike's superpower. Like, this guy is literally willing to climb up the hill, like, with this, like, you know, He doesn't understand how skiing works and employment works, which is great. Yeah. And then he's like, alright. So I was supposed to get Kendall. He's the same way. He also just like this. Absolutely not. Super grinder? No. No. Gendall's mister shortcut.

So I need to know that, like, the what if, what could have been will actually get played out. And, like, that way I'll just my curiosity, I'll know. What would have happened if we had kept at and focused on it? Well, let me just hand as these guys who are super focused and let's just now we get to know. And then also there's, you know, you get the reward of it too if it if it had some work now. Yep. So that was one on your side that's like, that's Mike's superpower. Like, this guy is literally willing to climb up the hill, like, with this, like, you know, He doesn't understand how skiing works and employment works, which is great. Yeah. And then he's like, alright. So I was supposed to get Kendall. He's the same way. He also just like this. Absolutely not. Super grinder? No. No. Gendall's mister shortcut.

20:44

And I love this. So we were talking, and I was like, alright.

And I love this. So we were talking, and I was like, alright.

20:48

What did you guys do before this? Before this, I kept digging.

What did you guys do before this? Before this, I kept digging.

20:51

Tell the story of, I don't know, let's pick one of them. Let's do the, the Tesla one, the Tesla hack. Because once you told me this story, I was like,

Tell the story of, I don't know, let's pick one of them. Let's do the, the Tesla one, the Tesla hack. Because once you told me this story, I was like,

20:58

this guy's super clever. He's gonna find a way. Like, he's just gonna find the shortcuts

this guy's super clever. He's gonna find a way. Like, he's just gonna find the shortcuts

21:04

that we would need to, like, you know, make this thing super successful So tell tell that story. Yeah. So I had a Tesla. And at the time, they had the Tesla referral program. So, basically, they gave every owner a unique code.

that we would need to, like, you know, make this thing super successful So tell tell that story. Yeah. So I had a Tesla. And at the time, they had the Tesla referral program. So, basically, they gave every owner a unique code.

21:17

And

And

21:18

to get, you know, five thousand supercharger miles, you actually had to use it. So people were searching for it. And I was like, perfect. I, you know, that's what I do for a living. I rank in Google. So when you search Tesla referral code, my site was number one. I said. What was it called? Like, dress up for a code dot com? No. It's actually fair estimate dot com. Okay. I basically made, like, for just a fun side project.

to get, you know, five thousand supercharger miles, you actually had to use it. So people were searching for it. And I was like, perfect. I, you know, that's what I do for a living. I rank in Google. So when you search Tesla referral code, my site was number one. I said. What was it called? Like, dress up for a code dot com? No. It's actually fair estimate dot com. Okay. I basically made, like, for just a fun side project.

21:41

A lift versus Uber comparison. So you just put, like, I'm going here, you know, what's the difference between the two? Right. And so I just made a slash Tesla on that. And by the way, that it's self rack your own. That was another one of your little shortcuts. You didn't wanna ever pay for Uber again, right, like, or Lyft because you would just get referral credits from that too. Right? Exactly. So basically, on that site, The way I monetized it was, here's my referral code when you sign up for one or the other.

A lift versus Uber comparison. So you just put, like, I'm going here, you know, what's the difference between the two? Right. And so I just made a slash Tesla on that. And by the way, that it's self rack your own. That was another one of your little shortcuts. You didn't wanna ever pay for Uber again, right, like, or Lyft because you would just get referral credits from that too. Right? Exactly. So basically, on that site, The way I monetized it was, here's my referral code when you sign up for one or the other.

22:05

And, literally had unlimited

And, literally had unlimited

22:07

Uber and Lyft for years.

Uber and Lyft for years.

22:10

Literal years. And I shared it with some friends. They'd be like, hey, you know, I want some. Can you put my code for a little bit? Yeah. So I'd, you know, do it for a month for them, and they'd be like, I don't need to I

Literal years. And I shared it with some friends. They'd be like, hey, you know, I want some. Can you put my code for a little bit? Yeah. So I'd, you know, do it for a month for them, and they'd be like, I don't need to I

22:19

am done. And then it would just be like the next friend, the next friend. That's hilarious. But then, you know, what happens is, like, these programs are like, okay. This is kind of weird. The, you know, there's certain codes. Yeah. Exactly. So they kinda cut you off after a while, but until then, you kinda can reap the benefits. So so you had the Uber Lyft shortcut, which is getting you free ubers and lifts,

am done. And then it would just be like the next friend, the next friend. That's hilarious. But then, you know, what happens is, like, these programs are like, okay. This is kind of weird. The, you know, there's certain codes. Yeah. Exactly. So they kinda cut you off after a while, but until then, you kinda can reap the benefits. So so you had the Uber Lyft shortcut, which is getting you free ubers and lifts,

22:40

then you were like, oh, Tesla. So you made a slash road slash Tesla. Yep. Like extension, basically.

then you were like, oh, Tesla. So you made a slash road slash Tesla. Yep. Like extension, basically.

22:46

And you you were ranking for when people were looking for Tesla referral code. Exactly. So I sent, like, hundreds of people to buy cars. And you needed to send, like, I think, fifty six to get a Tesla roadster.

And you you were ranking for when people were looking for Tesla referral code. Exactly. So I sent, like, hundreds of people to buy cars. And you needed to send, like, I think, fifty six to get a Tesla roadster.

22:59

Was that, like, the peak prize of the free programs? Exactly.

Was that, like, the peak prize of the free programs? Exactly.

23:03

But, you know, I'm still waiting for it. Roadster's like, what, like, a hundred grand or something. It was two hundred. Two. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Two hundred or two fifty depending on, like, the month. They never gave it. They never gave it to you. Well, they haven't released that. It be? Oh, oh, the new roads new. The newest. Yeah. So they were like, hey, when we do it, you know, in twenty nineteen, you know, we're gonna give every

But, you know, I'm still waiting for it. Roadster's like, what, like, a hundred grand or something. It was two hundred. Two. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Two hundred or two fifty depending on, like, the month. They never gave it. They never gave it to you. Well, they haven't released that. It be? Oh, oh, the new roads new. The newest. Yeah. So they were like, hey, when we do it, you know, in twenty nineteen, you know, we're gonna give every

23:21

mean, how much did you earn? So I earned, like, one point seven five.

mean, how much did you earn? So I earned, like, one point seven five.

23:25

I had sent more referrals, but I think Tesla was like, alright. You know, we're gonna give you one point seven five. And then,

I had sent more referrals, but I think Tesla was like, alright. You know, we're gonna give you one point seven five. And then,

23:31

what do you do with the point seven five? I don't understand. I think you have to pay the, you know, the difference between when they do.

what do you do with the point seven five? I don't understand. I think you have to pay the, you know, the difference between when they do.

23:37

I mean, like, send it to me without the trunk. I'll take the three fourths car. I'll take the convertible. Thank you.

I mean, like, send it to me without the trunk. I'll take the three fourths car. I'll take the convertible. Thank you.

23:45

And then, you know, I did that. And I was like, alright. Well,

And then, you know, I did that. And I was like, alright. Well,

23:49

hey, dad. You have a Tesla. Do you want a roadster?

hey, dad. You have a Tesla. Do you want a roadster?

23:53

Sure, son. I want that. And so I put his code and then did it with my brother-in-law.

Sure, son. I want that. And so I put his code and then did it with my brother-in-law.

23:59

So, you know, we have a lot of roadsters that might be coming.

So, you know, we have a lot of roadsters that might be coming.

24:03

We'll stay. It's like the upper thing. You get arrested. You get arrested.

We'll stay. It's like the upper thing. You get arrested. You get arrested.

24:07

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. So you did. We did that. You also did other ones too. Let's do some of the other ones. You did I was asking you how did you even

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. So you did. We did that. You also did other ones too. Let's do some of the other ones. You did I was asking you how did you even

24:15

learn that there's, like, this, like, SEO affiliate game. Right? So SEO is just people are searching for stuff on Google. If you can get to the top, you're gonna get a lot of free customer traffic.

learn that there's, like, this, like, SEO affiliate game. Right? So SEO is just people are searching for stuff on Google. If you can get to the top, you're gonna get a lot of free customer traffic.

24:26

And then affiliate is, well, what do you do with that free customer traffic? They want something

And then affiliate is, well, what do you do with that free customer traffic? They want something

24:30

You can pass that kind of qualified lead, that that high intent customer to the website,

You can pass that kind of qualified lead, that that high intent customer to the website,

24:35

and they have affiliate programs. So you'll get the kickback. That's how you got the roadster. That's how you got Uber credits and all that. So

and they have affiliate programs. So you'll get the kickback. That's how you got the roadster. That's how you got Uber credits and all that. So

24:41

how did you even figure out this was a thing? I wanna hear that for both of you guys because this is this is y'all's game. And it's a game I didn't know about till months later in life, but you guys discovered it kinda early. I wanna hear the origin story. How did you guys even get into that? Yeah. So this was, like, during, like, the money maker you know, world series of poker was a big thing.

how did you even figure out this was a thing? I wanna hear that for both of you guys because this is this is y'all's game. And it's a game I didn't know about till months later in life, but you guys discovered it kinda early. I wanna hear the origin story. How did you guys even get into that? Yeah. So this was, like, during, like, the money maker you know, world series of poker was a big thing.

24:59

And, you know, all of my friends and I were playing poker just around the house and then online, you know, there was a bunch of poker sites. And I saw one of the poker sites had, like, a poker chip set, and they would give it to you for free. And I was like, well, how does that work? Nothing in life is free.

And, you know, all of my friends and I were playing poker just around the house and then online, you know, there was a bunch of poker sites. And I saw one of the poker sites had, like, a poker chip set, and they would give it to you for free. And I was like, well, how does that work? Nothing in life is free.

25:15

And I figured, oh, they're giving it for free because they're getting, like, two hundred and fifty dollars per person they end up sending.

And I figured, oh, they're giving it for free because they're getting, like, two hundred and fifty dollars per person they end up sending.

25:22

So at that point, I was like, perfect. I've got a lot of friends, and I'm just gonna kinda make the difference. I'll give them fifty bucks to deposit, I don't make, you know, the two hundred dollars that I get paid from the, you know, casinos and sports books and poker at that point. And so you do that with, like, six friends.

So at that point, I was like, perfect. I've got a lot of friends, and I'm just gonna kinda make the difference. I'll give them fifty bucks to deposit, I don't make, you know, the two hundred dollars that I get paid from the, you know, casinos and sports books and poker at that point. And so you do that with, like, six friends.

25:39

And ran out of them at that point. Right? You know, it was like, it was it was great. And then it was like, okay. Well, now I need to actually figure out how to do this.

And ran out of them at that point. Right? You know, it was like, it was it was great. And then it was like, okay. Well, now I need to actually figure out how to do this.

25:48

And that's kinda how I got into, like, oh, I need to figure out how to create websites. I I can do this with just like random people. And you're you're a teenager at this time. I'm in college. Yeah. Or college. Okay. Yeah. So I was in college. Mike was actually a teenager at that time.

And that's kinda how I got into, like, oh, I need to figure out how to create websites. I I can do this with just like random people. And you're you're a teenager at this time. I'm in college. Yeah. Or college. Okay. Yeah. So I was in college. Mike was actually a teenager at that time.

26:01

And, you know, just had to figure it out. And, I mean, like, my first big break was actually misspelling Paradise poker.

And, you know, just had to figure it out. And, I mean, like, my first big break was actually misspelling Paradise poker.

26:09

What do you mean? So how did they go down? Yeah. Well, so at the time

What do you mean? So how did they go down? Yeah. Well, so at the time

26:12

when you searched in Google, they didn't have auto correct. So, basically, you misspelled Paradise poker and you'd get misspelled websites

when you searched in Google, they didn't have auto correct. So, basically, you misspelled Paradise poker and you'd get misspelled websites

26:20

with that. And so I was, like, perfect. I'm not a very good speller, so I can come up with a lot of variations. I couldn't tell you to spell paradise poker right now, actually.

with that. And so I was, like, perfect. I'm not a very good speller, so I can come up with a lot of variations. I couldn't tell you to spell paradise poker right now, actually.

26:29

And so I came up with a lot of variations.

And so I came up with a lot of variations.

26:31

And, you know, got them to rank in Google for, like, every misspelling. Right. And it was crazy because, like, all of a sudden, I just started seeing traffic. I started sending them obviously to the real paradise. Poker. I made a cut of them. And literally my last year of college, it was, like, paid for. I was basically, like, parents, like, I've got this, you know, I've got room, board, you know, the education because I'm making

And, you know, got them to rank in Google for, like, every misspelling. Right. And it was crazy because, like, all of a sudden, I just started seeing traffic. I started sending them obviously to the real paradise. Poker. I made a cut of them. And literally my last year of college, it was, like, paid for. I was basically, like, parents, like, I've got this, you know, I've got room, board, you know, the education because I'm making

26:52

free money basically online. Were they like, well, what do you mean, son? Like, do they know about this the whole or not really. I had to kinda, like, tell them they were, like, I was a little worried because I was, like, poker gambling. You know, they're gonna be, like, oh, what's my son into? Is he doing this? Right. But my dad was actually, like, he looked at me and he was like, pretty proud because he was like, oh, you're kinda like, you know, the picks and shovels

free money basically online. Were they like, well, what do you mean, son? Like, do they know about this the whole or not really. I had to kinda, like, tell them they were, like, I was a little worried because I was, like, poker gambling. You know, they're gonna be, like, oh, what's my son into? Is he doing this? Right. But my dad was actually, like, he looked at me and he was like, pretty proud because he was like, oh, you're kinda like, you know, the picks and shovels

27:12

of it. Right? You're not actually doing it. You're enabling people to do it. And the people that choose to do it. Yeah. And you you said you said something real quick. Like, we got to the top of Google. Did you have to do anything interesting to get your misspelled Paradise poker to be the number one, or was it just, like, that was your domain name. So it automatically was gonna be number one at that Well, the beauty of it, there was just no competition. No one else was actually trying to misspell Paradise poker on Paris. Maybe they would misspell it once. But I would have it like eight times.

of it. Right? You're not actually doing it. You're enabling people to do it. And the people that choose to do it. Yeah. And you you said you said something real quick. Like, we got to the top of Google. Did you have to do anything interesting to get your misspelled Paradise poker to be the number one, or was it just, like, that was your domain name. So it automatically was gonna be number one at that Well, the beauty of it, there was just no competition. No one else was actually trying to misspell Paradise poker on Paris. Maybe they would misspell it once. But I would have it like eight times.

27:41

So I was the best misspeller, a paradise poker, and literally was number one for most the key. And I I sent you the thing that's going on right now with the Kia Car where the Kia rebranded their logo. It looks like KN instead of Kia,

So I was the best misspeller, a paradise poker, and literally was number one for most the key. And I I sent you the thing that's going on right now with the Kia Car where the Kia rebranded their logo. It looks like KN instead of Kia,

27:55

and Google search for k n car is, like, suddenly spiking because people see it on the road. They're like, oh, that's cool. What is that? What is the KN car? And I was like, this feels like a Kendall thing. And I was like, Kendall, what would you do with this? What what was your answer? So I, you know, I had a buddy in fleet sales. And, like, that's where they, you know, sell a ton of cars via online. And I would make a deal with someone like that at the dealership. I would say, look, I can get you a lot of traffic.

and Google search for k n car is, like, suddenly spiking because people see it on the road. They're like, oh, that's cool. What is that? What is the KN car? And I was like, this feels like a Kendall thing. And I was like, Kendall, what would you do with this? What what was your answer? So I, you know, I had a buddy in fleet sales. And, like, that's where they, you know, sell a ton of cars via online. And I would make a deal with someone like that at the dealership. I would say, look, I can get you a lot of traffic.

28:20

And So I would create websites that would literally, you know, go for all the newest cars. Right? The, you know, the twenty twenty three, you know,

And So I would create websites that would literally, you know, go for all the newest cars. Right? The, you know, the twenty twenty three, you know,

28:28

Kia whatever it was, but obviously spell it with the k n. Right. And then, you know, make a deal with them. Like, I'm gonna send you this. You know, I want twenty percent of all those leads. And what is your what would your website look like at that time? And be like, hey, this is the k n card. Go ahead and go buy her. Would you be like, you know, he would you just make it look like the Kia website? What would you actually do? I think I would just, you know, explain it. Like, hey, you know, it look it's it says KN, but it's actually Kia. And, you know, here's the reasons why this car is really cool. And here's a form to actually buy this car, and I can get you a great deal on it. Right. And then, you know, obviously send that lead over and, you know, everyone's happy at that point. They actually find the car that they wanted. You know, it wasn't Kia, but, you know, it was the KN card that they had found. How much do you think somebody can make if they they did this? What's your range? What's your estimate of how how that would play out? If you if you did a good job, executing that. I think if you did a good job, I mean, the problem now is Google auto correct. So Google now, I even did the searches myself. Right. It it goes to the actual Kia. Like, hey, I know what you're trying to do. Right. So you'd have to kind of find that, like, where doesn't it do that? Is it the App Store or is it some, like, other you know, place to do that. Right. And I think you could I mean, when you get like a really good misspelling of really high priced items,

Kia whatever it was, but obviously spell it with the k n. Right. And then, you know, make a deal with them. Like, I'm gonna send you this. You know, I want twenty percent of all those leads. And what is your what would your website look like at that time? And be like, hey, this is the k n card. Go ahead and go buy her. Would you be like, you know, he would you just make it look like the Kia website? What would you actually do? I think I would just, you know, explain it. Like, hey, you know, it look it's it says KN, but it's actually Kia. And, you know, here's the reasons why this car is really cool. And here's a form to actually buy this car, and I can get you a great deal on it. Right. And then, you know, obviously send that lead over and, you know, everyone's happy at that point. They actually find the car that they wanted. You know, it wasn't Kia, but, you know, it was the KN card that they had found. How much do you think somebody can make if they they did this? What's your range? What's your estimate of how how that would play out? If you if you did a good job, executing that. I think if you did a good job, I mean, the problem now is Google auto correct. So Google now, I even did the searches myself. Right. It it goes to the actual Kia. Like, hey, I know what you're trying to do. Right. So you'd have to kind of find that, like, where doesn't it do that? Is it the App Store or is it some, like, other you know, place to do that. Right. And I think you could I mean, when you get like a really good misspelling of really high priced items,

29:39

with a decent margin, you know, you could make hundreds of thousands of dollars. Mhmm.

with a decent margin, you know, you could make hundreds of thousands of dollars. Mhmm.

29:44

As awesome. And you kinda had a similar

As awesome. And you kinda had a similar

29:47

origin story, playing poker, and then

origin story, playing poker, and then

29:50

discover the poker affiliate game. Yeah. Yeah. So I was basically a degenerate gambler when I was fifteen or sixteen.

discover the poker affiliate game. Yeah. Yeah. So I was basically a degenerate gambler when I was fifteen or sixteen.

29:58

My friends and I would play, you know, poker in home games just five ten bucks whatever. This is when poker was on TV all the time in, like, two thousand five.

My friends and I would play, you know, poker in home games just five ten bucks whatever. This is when poker was on TV all the time in, like, two thousand five.

30:05

And I just kept losing all my money. So I would have to go to, you know, the local grocery store to the Western Union or whatever, give them the hundred bucks cash. They would send it to you know, Cambodia or wherever it was going.

And I just kept losing all my money. So I would have to go to, you know, the local grocery store to the Western Union or whatever, give them the hundred bucks cash. They would send it to you know, Cambodia or wherever it was going.

30:17

And then I would just lose that. So I was like, I need to find some other way to reload my -- Correct. -- poker account. I'm busted. Not. I need to stop. No. I need to exactly. Where am I getting real faster?

And then I would just lose that. So I was like, I need to find some other way to reload my -- Correct. -- poker account. I'm busted. Not. I need to stop. No. I need to exactly. Where am I getting real faster?

30:27

Next. Yeah.

Next. Yeah.

30:28

So then I saw it that they had like the refer a friend thing on the website and they would pay you, like, seventy five bucks or whatever to get your buddies to sign up. So I had all my friends sign up same as you.

So then I saw it that they had like the refer a friend thing on the website and they would pay you, like, seventy five bucks or whatever to get your buddies to sign up. So I had all my friends sign up same as you.

30:39

And when I ran out of friends, I was, like, same as him. Like, I gotta figure out a way to get strangers to do this for me, and ended up coming across this,

And when I ran out of friends, I was, like, same as him. Like, I gotta figure out a way to get strangers to do this for me, and ended up coming across this,

30:47

forum called It was called poker affiliate world back then. It was basically a lot of people who were doing this that would share, you know, what was working, what wasn't. It was a very friendly community that I I was kinda surprised I don't know why people are telling me this, but just because they're kinda competing. Right? Yeah. We were all comp like, we were competitors. Yep. And just ended up becoming friends as well.

forum called It was called poker affiliate world back then. It was basically a lot of people who were doing this that would share, you know, what was working, what wasn't. It was a very friendly community that I I was kinda surprised I don't know why people are telling me this, but just because they're kinda competing. Right? Yeah. We were all comp like, we were competitors. Yep. And just ended up becoming friends as well.

31:07

So just learned through doing that, start a website.

So just learned through doing that, start a website.

31:10

My I convinced my parents to lend me, like, a couple hundred bucks to buy a domain and set up, you know, web hosting and everything. And I I told you this or I put in that document that, like, when I've sold my first site, which is probably nine or twelve months after that, it was for thirty two hundred dollars. Which was like a billion dollars to be back then. And I got all it was like a check. I cashed it. I took all the cash home and, you know, spread it out.

My I convinced my parents to lend me, like, a couple hundred bucks to buy a domain and set up, you know, web hosting and everything. And I I told you this or I put in that document that, like, when I've sold my first site, which is probably nine or twelve months after that, it was for thirty two hundred dollars. Which was like a billion dollars to be back then. And I got all it was like a check. I cashed it. I took all the cash home and, you know, spread it out.

31:34

A big goo boo for sure. And then took the, you know, repaid my parents, and that was, like,

A big goo boo for sure. And then took the, you know, repaid my parents, and that was, like,

31:40

a very sentimental moment for me. That's amazing. Yeah. Didn't you have something for your neighbor did something for you? Your neighbor, like, lent you some money or something like that? Was it like a lemonade stand story? Something like that? Well, I, like, the first thing I did for work, my one of my neighbors needed some, like, landscaping work done. And I will give you, yeah, twenty bucks or whatever to come over and do it. And it was on a Saturday and the night before I was, you know, out with the boys. Had I had a had a few sodas, and,

a very sentimental moment for me. That's amazing. Yeah. Didn't you have something for your neighbor did something for you? Your neighbor, like, lent you some money or something like that? Was it like a lemonade stand story? Something like that? Well, I, like, the first thing I did for work, my one of my neighbors needed some, like, landscaping work done. And I will give you, yeah, twenty bucks or whatever to come over and do it. And it was on a Saturday and the night before I was, you know, out with the boys. Had I had a had a few sodas, and,

32:06

little hungover that morning, and I made it to like ten AM before I had to tap out.

little hungover that morning, and I made it to like ten AM before I had to tap out.

32:11

I just can't do this right now. That was the that was the first and probably only job you had. Yeah. I just had, you know, random stuff like that.

I just can't do this right now. That was the that was the first and probably only job you had. Yeah. I just had, you know, random stuff like that.

32:18

Did that. I had a I lasted one day on a another neighbor had a a bread company, so they would have to deliver the bread every morning to rest months. Right. And my dad was friends with him. So he's like, you know, I'm sure trying to get me to do something. Yeah. You need to go work with, misteranza Vine for the day. It was like a four AM wake up call to do that. So it lasted one day at that as well. It's like, just no way. Shoble snow for one day. So I had a lot of one day. Neither of you really had any real jobs it sounded like. You Never had a real job. So you never had, like, a corporate go and, like, you know, here's your first day at the the new company. You didn't have that. I I did not. I basically like, a summer job. It was, like, a temp job agency that kind of places you different places, and one of them was, like, Dell warranties.

Did that. I had a I lasted one day on a another neighbor had a a bread company, so they would have to deliver the bread every morning to rest months. Right. And my dad was friends with him. So he's like, you know, I'm sure trying to get me to do something. Yeah. You need to go work with, misteranza Vine for the day. It was like a four AM wake up call to do that. So it lasted one day at that as well. It's like, just no way. Shoble snow for one day. So I had a lot of one day. Neither of you really had any real jobs it sounded like. You Never had a real job. So you never had, like, a corporate go and, like, you know, here's your first day at the the new company. You didn't have that. I I did not. I basically like, a summer job. It was, like, a temp job agency that kind of places you different places, and one of them was, like, Dell warranties.

32:57

And then I I realized then I was, like, I can't work for someone else. Like, this is just not me. You know, I wanna work for myself. I wanna set my own hours and I wanna make a lot of money. Yeah. Like, my mom always said, like, when you were younger, All you said is like, I wanna be a millionaire. I wanna make a bunch of money. And she's just like, alright. Sure. You know, let let's see what happens.

And then I I realized then I was, like, I can't work for someone else. Like, this is just not me. You know, I wanna work for myself. I wanna set my own hours and I wanna make a lot of money. Yeah. Like, my mom always said, like, when you were younger, All you said is like, I wanna be a millionaire. I wanna make a bunch of money. And she's just like, alright. Sure. You know, let let's see what happens.

33:16

But, you know, that was just kind of my general sense of it. And I was like, I need to figure out a way to make it, like, to make You also said something like

But, you know, that was just kind of my general sense of it. And I was like, I need to figure out a way to make it, like, to make You also said something like

33:24

I don't like the idea of working working really hard and someone else making money off that. Exactly. I'm gonna make the money off that. Like, I mean, that's what, you know, like being an employee, right? Like, you're making the owner's money. And I just, like, I couldn't get, like, around that. I was like, I need to be the owner of the business. Dude, I find it hard sometimes to recruit people. Because I'm like, I fundamentally

I don't like the idea of working working really hard and someone else making money off that. Exactly. I'm gonna make the money off that. Like, I mean, that's what, you know, like being an employee, right? Like, you're making the owner's money. And I just, like, I couldn't get, like, around that. I was like, I need to be the owner of the business. Dude, I find it hard sometimes to recruit people. Because I'm like, I fundamentally

33:43

don't want to do this

don't want to do this

33:46

trade

trade

33:47

of, like, I get some security and certainty and experience

of, like, I get some security and certainty and experience

33:51

But you get the upside, you know, like, you know, I get my salary, but you get the the the upside of my my work.

But you get the upside, you know, like, you know, I get my salary, but you get the the the upside of my my work.

33:57

I I almost find it sometimes hard to even recruit people to work at this point because I'm just like, I don't know, man. I just I I philosophically

I I almost find it sometimes hard to even recruit people to work at this point because I'm just like, I don't know, man. I just I I philosophically

34:05

don't love this path, but then I also need to hire employees all the time. So I'm like, you know, it's because it's not like productive. You ever have that ever Oh, totally. And I feel like, actually, it's been actually one of the most rewarding things of my company. It's like watching the people grow. Know, we would hire them and I'd say, like, oh, I just need you to kinda, you know, write a couple pages of content. And then they do a really good job. And it's like, oh, do you wanna be the editor of this website? Then, oh, do you wanna manage other people? And so, like, you know, the businesses that I sold, I made sure the people that I was working with got really great jobs because I feel like, you know,

don't love this path, but then I also need to hire employees all the time. So I'm like, you know, it's because it's not like productive. You ever have that ever Oh, totally. And I feel like, actually, it's been actually one of the most rewarding things of my company. It's like watching the people grow. Know, we would hire them and I'd say, like, oh, I just need you to kinda, you know, write a couple pages of content. And then they do a really good job. And it's like, oh, do you wanna be the editor of this website? Then, oh, do you wanna manage other people? And so, like, you know, the businesses that I sold, I made sure the people that I was working with got really great jobs because I feel like, you know,

34:38

Sure. I made a lot of the money, but I wanna make sure that, like, your career is set and you are in the best position possible to really, you know, crush it. We're we're, you know, with what you're doing. And what did you do after your first sale? You did

Sure. I made a lot of the money, but I wanna make sure that, like, your career is set and you are in the best position possible to really, you know, crush it. We're we're, you know, with what you're doing. And what did you do after your first sale? You did

34:51

a retirement party.

a retirement party.

34:53

Yeah. So I had this idea. I was like, okay. You know what? I did it. I'm done. And you were like, thirty something, thirty three. Yeah. I was like thirty three, I believe.

Yeah. So I had this idea. I was like, okay. You know what? I did it. I'm done. And you were like, thirty something, thirty three. Yeah. I was like thirty three, I believe.

35:01

And, you know, I was telling all my friends, like, I'm gonna rent out a restaurant

And, you know, I was telling all my friends, like, I'm gonna rent out a restaurant

35:05

And, you know, we're just gonna, like, celebrate my retirement. And, you know, it'll be great because, you know, I'm not gonna be sixty five. I'll be, like, thirty three, and it'll be great. So we rented out Lazy Bear in San Francisco.

And, you know, we're just gonna, like, celebrate my retirement. And, you know, it'll be great because, you know, I'm not gonna be sixty five. I'll be, like, thirty three, and it'll be great. So we rented out Lazy Bear in San Francisco.

35:16

And I had all my friends and my family, and it was awesome.

And I had all my friends and my family, and it was awesome.

35:20

We then had a party bus. Yes. They didn't even really know about your business. No. I mean, that was another thing for me. I've always been, you know,

We then had a party bus. Yes. They didn't even really know about your business. No. I mean, that was another thing for me. I've always been, you know,

35:28

not one to brag about it. I feel like what I do is kind of just what I do, and there's no reason kind of be, you know, boastful about it. Yeah. So for actually the first year after I sold the business, I didn't tell anyone.

not one to brag about it. I feel like what I do is kind of just what I do, and there's no reason kind of be, you know, boastful about it. Yeah. So for actually the first year after I sold the business, I didn't tell anyone.

35:41

And and then after a year, because I just wanted to live with it. And I just wanted to kind of be comfortable with it myself before I then told other people.

And and then after a year, because I just wanted to live with it. And I just wanted to kind of be comfortable with it myself before I then told other people.

35:49

And so I had a three year earn out. So after the three years is when I did my retirement party.

And so I had a three year earn out. So after the three years is when I did my retirement party.

35:54

And so you sat on that news for a long time. I did. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'd sat on it for a year. I told people, but then I had two years left with them. Once I was done with that, I was like, it's retirement time. Like, I'm done. Let's do it. So rented lazy bear, rented a bar, had a party bus, And it was awesome. But then literally, like, three nights. Anybody at the were you at this party?

And so you sat on that news for a long time. I did. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'd sat on it for a year. I told people, but then I had two years left with them. Once I was done with that, I was like, it's retirement time. Like, I'm done. Let's do it. So rented lazy bear, rented a bar, had a party bus, And it was awesome. But then literally, like, three nights. Anybody at the were you at this party?

36:15

You were supposed to come. Why did I not come? You had some some excuse.

You were supposed to come. Why did I not come? You had some some excuse.

36:20

I think I was hungover again. Yeah. It's podcasting. This guy's almost hungover. I don't know. I

I think I was hungover again. Yeah. It's podcasting. This guy's almost hungover. I don't know. I

36:24

can't remember why I didn't come, but I do remember that when he did sell that one, I had left the gambling space, so I I knew he was doing well. I didn't know, like, what was really going on. And he was in Dallas for something. I can't remember what. And I went over to their hotel room and him and his wife test had a bottle of champagne. They're like, we're gonna open this, celebrate the sale, whatever. I was like, oh, you know, congrats. That's awesome, man. And then I went home. I looked it up, and I was like, oh, and I texted him, I was like, Alright. I really mean it because that's not like Well, we could say it's in the news. Right? Like, that one sold for, I think, forty five million forty million. It was actually fifty million total, but I kind of sold it twice to the company. Is kind of a weird story. Explain that. How does that work? So first time you sold it for what? So first time I sold it for, like, fifteen million plus you know, a bunch of equity.

can't remember why I didn't come, but I do remember that when he did sell that one, I had left the gambling space, so I I knew he was doing well. I didn't know, like, what was really going on. And he was in Dallas for something. I can't remember what. And I went over to their hotel room and him and his wife test had a bottle of champagne. They're like, we're gonna open this, celebrate the sale, whatever. I was like, oh, you know, congrats. That's awesome, man. And then I went home. I looked it up, and I was like, oh, and I texted him, I was like, Alright. I really mean it because that's not like Well, we could say it's in the news. Right? Like, that one sold for, I think, forty five million forty million. It was actually fifty million total, but I kind of sold it twice to the company. Is kind of a weird story. Explain that. How does that work? So first time you sold it for what? So first time I sold it for, like, fifteen million plus you know, a bunch of equity.

37:10

And what happened was, like, at that time, New Jersey was big. And that was, like, the first legal state

And what happened was, like, at that time, New Jersey was big. And that was, like, the first legal state

37:17

that had, you know, casino and poker. So we focused on that. We did really well. Well, let me explain because I think people won't know that the context here. So you go from online poker, then online poker collapses.

that had, you know, casino and poker. So we focused on that. We did really well. Well, let me explain because I think people won't know that the context here. So you go from online poker, then online poker collapses.

37:28

And now that whole affiliate game is kinda dead because you US just shut down online poker. Yep.

And now that whole affiliate game is kinda dead because you US just shut down online poker. Yep.

37:36

What most people did was

What most people did was

37:38

they went offshore or international because it was still illegal in certain places or in certain ways. That's where most people

they went offshore or international because it was still illegal in certain places or in certain ways. That's where most people

37:44

went. You did something different. Like, that was the obvious market. You went for kind of a non obvious pivot, which was

went. You did something different. Like, that was the obvious market. You went for kind of a non obvious pivot, which was

37:51

In the whole United States, one state was gonna legalize,

In the whole United States, one state was gonna legalize,

37:56

I don't know if all gambling or just sports betting or what which one is it? They they basically, at that point, didn't have sports betting. But it was poker. It was casino. And casinos are like the big players. So that's kind of the one that was really exciting. So gambling was was legal in New Jersey. Only New Jersey. And I remember at that time, it was like, well, how do you build a business around one state? That's I it just like, you didn't sound big. I don't think it's not evasive to most people. So most people didn't do that. Right? You kind of like found the the hack that nobody else was really competing for this, like,

I don't know if all gambling or just sports betting or what which one is it? They they basically, at that point, didn't have sports betting. But it was poker. It was casino. And casinos are like the big players. So that's kind of the one that was really exciting. So gambling was was legal in New Jersey. Only New Jersey. And I remember at that time, it was like, well, how do you build a business around one state? That's I it just like, you didn't sound big. I don't think it's not evasive to most people. So most people didn't do that. Right? You kind of like found the the hack that nobody else was really competing for this, like,

38:25

what was the what would be the search term people were looking for that you wanted to rank? New Jersey Online Casino. Was that was, like, the big one? And you're right. Like, All of my competitors were, like, perfect. You know, like, we still have forty nine other states, and the regulators at that time said. If you choose to promote in New Jersey, you cannot do anything else. They didn't want, you know, the the offshore

what was the what would be the search term people were looking for that you wanted to rank? New Jersey Online Casino. Was that was, like, the big one? And you're right. Like, All of my competitors were, like, perfect. You know, like, we still have forty nine other states, and the regulators at that time said. If you choose to promote in New Jersey, you cannot do anything else. They didn't want, you know, the the offshore

38:45

plus the legal regulated market. And I was like, that's perfect. I wanna be, you know, a big fish in a small pond.

plus the legal regulated market. And I was like, that's perfect. I wanna be, you know, a big fish in a small pond.

38:53

So I started that business. It was going well, but there was one competitor.

So I started that business. It was going well, but there was one competitor.

38:57

Chris Grove.

Chris Grove.

38:59

And he was really good at content. And he had, like, you know, his game figured out. I was much more into the kind of revenue side of the business. And so I talked and we, you know, we both talked for a while and we were like, you know, this is what I'm doing. This is what I what I'm doing. And, like, we were like, we're the only people in this market.

And he was really good at content. And he had, like, you know, his game figured out. I was much more into the kind of revenue side of the business. And so I talked and we, you know, we both talked for a while and we were like, you know, this is what I'm doing. This is what I what I'm doing. And, like, we were like, we're the only people in this market.

39:16

If we combine,

If we combine,

39:17

we basically own this market. Right. And so it was an easy decision with any of pricing power. Exactly. Because otherwise, if you're an affiliate and the company says, oh, instead of giving you two hundred dollars, it'll give you twenty dollars.

we basically own this market. Right. And so it was an easy decision with any of pricing power. Exactly. Because otherwise, if you're an affiliate and the company says, oh, instead of giving you two hundred dollars, it'll give you twenty dollars.

39:29

You're just like, well, you're my revenue stream, and you just changed the price on me, That's not great. I think that's one of the problems most people in the affiliate game fall into. You're

You're just like, well, you're my revenue stream, and you just changed the price on me, That's not great. I think that's one of the problems most people in the affiliate game fall into. You're

39:38

you're at the whim of your your affiliate partners. But if you become kinda like almost more important, you're like, I'm the only

you're at the whim of your your affiliate partners. But if you become kinda like almost more important, you're like, I'm the only

39:45

acquisition source for customers. So this price is the one I'm comfortable at. Exactly. And It it was crazy because, you know, we were able to get a thousand dollars

acquisition source for customers. So this price is the one I'm comfortable at. Exactly. And It it was crazy because, you know, we were able to get a thousand dollars

39:54

per player that we sent,

per player that we sent,

39:57

through New Jersey online casinos. Wow. And,

through New Jersey online casinos. Wow. And,

40:00

so, yeah, it worked out really well for us. Literally, the first month we partnered together, we both made way more money than we did apart. And, you know, within two years, containing media, the company that purchased us,

so, yeah, it worked out really well for us. Literally, the first month we partnered together, we both made way more money than we did apart. And, you know, within two years, containing media, the company that purchased us,

40:11

you know, came knocking. We're like, we have to buy you. Because we've heard at conferences. We've heard from, you know, people in the industry that you guys are the biggest, and we wanna own the biggest. Right. So they buy it once. So they buy it once. And at that point, it was just New Jersey. And what I told them, I was like, we're not gonna sell. Like, why would we sell? We've we have forty nine other states that eventually will legalize.

you know, came knocking. We're like, we have to buy you. Because we've heard at conferences. We've heard from, you know, people in the industry that you guys are the biggest, and we wanna own the biggest. Right. So they buy it once. So they buy it once. And at that point, it was just New Jersey. And what I told them, I was like, we're not gonna sell. Like, why would we sell? We've we have forty nine other states that eventually will legalize.

40:34

And so I came up with the idea that, alright, we'll sell you New Jersey.

And so I came up with the idea that, alright, we'll sell you New Jersey.

40:39

And any future state will get fifty percent of. So we'll be kind of fifty fifty partners for every state. Right. And They said, sure. They didn't really care at that point. I think they were just more focused on New Jersey and being the biggest affiliate in the US market. Right.

And any future state will get fifty percent of. So we'll be kind of fifty fifty partners for every state. Right. And They said, sure. They didn't really care at that point. I think they were just more focused on New Jersey and being the biggest affiliate in the US market. Right.

40:54

So

So

40:55

It was great. We started running it. You know, I had a three year. And as I mentioned, the first year was good. And that's when sports betting actually got legalized.

It was great. We started running it. You know, I had a three year. And as I mentioned, the first year was good. And that's when sports betting actually got legalized.

41:03

And then the business, you know, started booming in terms of, you know, New Jersey had it. But then a lot of other states were really excited

And then the business, you know, started booming in terms of, you know, New Jersey had it. But then a lot of other states were really excited

41:10

about offering it to their, you know, to the people in their state. So they,

about offering it to their, you know, to the people in their state. So they,

41:15

started legalizing. And all of a sudden,

started legalizing. And all of a sudden,

41:17

basically, we had, like, ten states coming online, and the company was like, whoa.

basically, we had, like, ten states coming online, and the company was like, whoa.

41:23

Whoa. We cannot

Whoa. We cannot

41:25

give you fifty percent of this. This is just too much liability.

give you fifty percent of this. This is just too much liability.

41:28

And so we're like, okay. Yeah. No problem. We'd, you know, here we just need a big chat. Right.

And so we're like, okay. Yeah. No problem. We'd, you know, here we just need a big chat. Right.

41:36

And and they did. And they were like, we have to we have to come up with a situation that, you know, works for us and works for you. And so, you know, it was part stock and part cash. So in total is around fifty million. Yeah. That's amazing. And that company, is publicly listed. Right? Yep. They're publicly listed, in the Swedish Stock Exchange. Swija. Nice.

And and they did. And they were like, we have to we have to come up with a situation that, you know, works for us and works for you. And so, you know, it was part stock and part cash. So in total is around fifty million. Yeah. That's amazing. And that company, is publicly listed. Right? Yep. They're publicly listed, in the Swedish Stock Exchange. Swija. Nice.

41:55

Did you go ring, like, the bell in Sweden? Like, I I wish. That would've been cool.

Did you go ring, like, the bell in Sweden? Like, I I wish. That would've been cool.

42:00

And so so that's kind of like your kind of like the big win story. Let's do Mike's big win story. So

And so so that's kind of like your kind of like the big win story. Let's do Mike's big win story. So

42:07

how does one go from

how does one go from

42:09

I'm gambling and losing money in poker. I give my friends to sign up for a referral program to

I'm gambling and losing money in poker. I give my friends to sign up for a referral program to

42:15

I own

I own

42:16

this company that does, like, I don't know,

this company that does, like, I don't know,

42:19

multiple billions of

multiple billions of

42:21

gold sales every year. Right? So it's like, how does that happen? Where where does that come from? Yeah. So, basically, I was in the gambling industry like he was. And when the shit hit the fan,

gold sales every year. Right? So it's like, how does that happen? Where where does that come from? Yeah. So, basically, I was in the gambling industry like he was. And when the shit hit the fan,

42:32

I sold. So I made, like, the wrong call where That was, like, the thirty two hundred No. So this was this was later on. I sold I was further into it. I sold for five hundred sixty five thousand, and I was, I think, nineteen then. So that's And so to sell a business five hundred and sixty five thousand, what was it doing at time. Like, it must have been doing a lot, but the future was too uncertain. It was doing, like, thirty to forty k a month, but it just I didn't know what was gonna happen for So I sold that. And then, you know, I'm on top of the world. Yeah. You're how old you're like, I'm nineteen at this point. Drop out of college. Yeah. I'm gonna I'm going for it. Guys, I figured it out. Figured out life. Yeah. So I'm like, god, I can do this affiliate thing in any space. So I try a bunch of different plays. I did it in the dating space. I tried to do it, like, selling business cards online. That was a complete failure. And just really, like, was this where the smirnoff ice thing happened? That was around that time.

I sold. So I made, like, the wrong call where That was, like, the thirty two hundred No. So this was this was later on. I sold I was further into it. I sold for five hundred sixty five thousand, and I was, I think, nineteen then. So that's And so to sell a business five hundred and sixty five thousand, what was it doing at time. Like, it must have been doing a lot, but the future was too uncertain. It was doing, like, thirty to forty k a month, but it just I didn't know what was gonna happen for So I sold that. And then, you know, I'm on top of the world. Yeah. You're how old you're like, I'm nineteen at this point. Drop out of college. Yeah. I'm gonna I'm going for it. Guys, I figured it out. Figured out life. Yeah. So I'm like, god, I can do this affiliate thing in any space. So I try a bunch of different plays. I did it in the dating space. I tried to do it, like, selling business cards online. That was a complete failure. And just really, like, was this where the smirnoff ice thing happened? That was around that time.

43:21

Sorry. So,

Sorry. So,

43:23

when I, you know, around that age, when I was out, that was at Penn State. I was having some fun,

when I, you know, around that age, when I was out, that was at Penn State. I was having some fun,

43:28

and there was this trend that was like, icing people. So, like, smirnoff ice. Right. If you present

and there was this trend that was like, icing people. So, like, smirnoff ice. Right. If you present

43:36

it to someone, they had to get on an e and chuck So, like, guys, I knew at college and high school, they were into this. By the way, most genius marketing campaign ever. Yeah. It was so Someone needs to just redo that. Enough time has passed just re replay that same thing. Do a milk milk chug.

it to someone, they had to get on an e and chuck So, like, guys, I knew at college and high school, they were into this. By the way, most genius marketing campaign ever. Yeah. It was so Someone needs to just redo that. Enough time has passed just re replay that same thing. Do a milk milk chug.

43:49

You'll land it back.

You'll land it back.

43:51

Chug it. Like, a gallon of milk.

Chug it. Like, a gallon of milk.

43:54

So

So

43:55

I there was a website called brose icing brose dot com, where people would send in, like, their best pictures of this happening. So there are all these creative ones, like, There was one I remember where a guy was super hungover in the morning and went and opened his toilet, and they had put plastic over the toilet. There was a smirnoff ice sitting there. Yeah. Like, check it at seven AM. So me and my buddies would send these pictures back and forth. Like, we thought it was funny. And then I just somehow ended up reaching out to the guy that ran was like, I think this is cool. You know, I have any interest in selling it or, you know, do anything with it. I ended up, working on a deal to buy it.

I there was a website called brose icing brose dot com, where people would send in, like, their best pictures of this happening. So there are all these creative ones, like, There was one I remember where a guy was super hungover in the morning and went and opened his toilet, and they had put plastic over the toilet. There was a smirnoff ice sitting there. Yeah. Like, check it at seven AM. So me and my buddies would send these pictures back and forth. Like, we thought it was funny. And then I just somehow ended up reaching out to the guy that ran was like, I think this is cool. You know, I have any interest in selling it or, you know, do anything with it. I ended up, working on a deal to buy it.

44:25

And I gave him twenty five thousand dollars for There was no monetization at all. It was just like, I think this is cool. It has a lot of traffic. I can figure something out here. And I'm really excited. I tell my buddy he's like, you know, I just bought that site. Right. You're the man. I was like, congrats. Yeah. They're like, we wanna get our pictures up, whatever. And,

And I gave him twenty five thousand dollars for There was no monetization at all. It was just like, I think this is cool. It has a lot of traffic. I can figure something out here. And I'm really excited. I tell my buddy he's like, you know, I just bought that site. Right. You're the man. I was like, congrats. Yeah. They're like, we wanna get our pictures up, whatever. And,

44:42

the neck literally the next day,

the neck literally the next day,

44:44

got an email from Spirit Officey Services that we were infringing their, you know, trademarks or whatever. And, like, you have to take all the pictures off the site. And the the the point of the was the picture.

got an email from Spirit Officey Services that we were infringing their, you know, trademarks or whatever. And, like, you have to take all the pictures off the site. And the the the point of the was the picture.

44:55

So, basically, just shut that down after twenty four hours and just, you know, wrote it off. Didn't you try to blur it? Weren't you saying you were gonna blur it? The the talked to the prior owner because I told him I was I was just like, you know, any ideas and he's like, well, you could try boring him out or whatever. I mean, just to seem a little coincidental, it was the next time. Do this guy make a phone call? It's no wonder. But, yeah, it's a nice loss for me. Nice learning. Okay. So you you're the world's trying to humble you. Are you getting humbled or not really? You're just, like, teflon. Very success. Fully humbling. Okay. Yeah. It was it was kinda like a two year period where just I went from everything worked really well to like nothing was working at all. And especially having you know, I had left school, and my parents very much were against that decision. So it was it was a dark time for me. Like, you know, is this gonna work? Is it not? Am I gonna egg on my face, have to go back to college, whatever.

So, basically, just shut that down after twenty four hours and just, you know, wrote it off. Didn't you try to blur it? Weren't you saying you were gonna blur it? The the talked to the prior owner because I told him I was I was just like, you know, any ideas and he's like, well, you could try boring him out or whatever. I mean, just to seem a little coincidental, it was the next time. Do this guy make a phone call? It's no wonder. But, yeah, it's a nice loss for me. Nice learning. Okay. So you you're the world's trying to humble you. Are you getting humbled or not really? You're just, like, teflon. Very success. Fully humbling. Okay. Yeah. It was it was kinda like a two year period where just I went from everything worked really well to like nothing was working at all. And especially having you know, I had left school, and my parents very much were against that decision. So it was it was a dark time for me. Like, you know, is this gonna work? Is it not? Am I gonna egg on my face, have to go back to college, whatever.

45:41

So

So

45:41

one of the guys I knew from the the poker affiliate world, he was doing some affiliate websites in the the Golden Silver space. And there was this company that had just spun up an affiliate program. And a a Jeremy Yankee, a guy we know was managing it for him. So he's like, you guys should look at this, whatever.

one of the guys I knew from the the poker affiliate world, he was doing some affiliate websites in the the Golden Silver space. And there was this company that had just spun up an affiliate program. And a a Jeremy Yankee, a guy we know was managing it for him. So he's like, you guys should look at this, whatever.

45:57

So I decided to invest in,

So I decided to invest in,

45:59

this guy's business, his name was Jonathan.

this guy's business, his name was Jonathan.

46:01

I was just gonna help him, like, build these sites. Let's see if we can turn it into something.

I was just gonna help him, like, build these sites. Let's see if we can turn it into something.

46:05

And

And

46:06

over, like, maybe six or nine months, we build up some traffic. It was making, like, five grand a month. You know, it was it was a side thing for me. I was trying to do other stuff.

over, like, maybe six or nine months, we build up some traffic. It was making, like, five grand a month. You know, it was it was a side thing for me. I was trying to do other stuff.

46:14

And,

And,

46:14

kind of out of nowhere, the company we were sending everybody to just killed their whole affiliate program. So we went from making, you know, five k a month to just zero. You know, this looked like another just completely flown. Got iced again. Yeah.

kind of out of nowhere, the company we were sending everybody to just killed their whole affiliate program. So we went from making, you know, five k a month to just zero. You know, this looked like another just completely flown. Got iced again. Yeah.

46:27

Yeah.

Yeah.

46:28

And then my partner, like, credit to him. I was, I was, again, was doing it as like, well, there's nothing to really do here. There's no other affiliate programs.

And then my partner, like, credit to him. I was, I was, again, was doing it as like, well, there's nothing to really do here. There's no other affiliate programs.

46:36

We had actually gone to that company that cut us off and and offered to sell them the website. We're like, you know, this thing was sending you, I don't know, two hundred buyers a month or whatever it was. You know, just kind of backing into what you're paying us on an affiliate basis, just give us forty grand for it, and we'll, you know, you can have lead gen for a long time. And they just never replied to us. So we You know, we had no path to to monetizing it. So I was, yeah, I was writing it off. And then my partner is, like, we should just sell this stuff ourselves. And that sounded like you can imagine how much of a nightmare that sounded if you're an affiliate because you never talk to customers. You don't, like, there's own employees really. Like, it's a very simple No. No product. It's it's it's you're kind of a middle man. Yeah. You're like in between people and the product. Yeah. So I I was like, this is crazy. I don't wanna do any of this because he's like, I'll do all the It's a gas in the affiliate

We had actually gone to that company that cut us off and and offered to sell them the website. We're like, you know, this thing was sending you, I don't know, two hundred buyers a month or whatever it was. You know, just kind of backing into what you're paying us on an affiliate basis, just give us forty grand for it, and we'll, you know, you can have lead gen for a long time. And they just never replied to us. So we You know, we had no path to to monetizing it. So I was, yeah, I was writing it off. And then my partner is, like, we should just sell this stuff ourselves. And that sounded like you can imagine how much of a nightmare that sounded if you're an affiliate because you never talk to customers. You don't, like, there's own employees really. Like, it's a very simple No. No product. It's it's it's you're kind of a middle man. Yeah. You're like in between people and the product. Yeah. So I I was like, this is crazy. I don't wanna do any of this because he's like, I'll do all the It's a gas in the affiliate

47:22

form. What are you all paying this? He's like, I'll I'll do all the inventory

form. What are you all paying this? He's like, I'll I'll do all the inventory

47:30

shipping customer phone calls, all that stuff, I'll do it all. Like, you just help with get traffic and put some more money in. Yeah. So I was like, alright, let's give this try. And so, yeah, I mean, credit to him. It wouldn't happen if he hadn't pushed so hard. This is, this is Andreas or this is Jonathan. So that was the JM. It was Jonathan and Mike. And kind of a funny story on that. Sounds very

shipping customer phone calls, all that stuff, I'll do it all. Like, you just help with get traffic and put some more money in. Yeah. So I was like, alright, let's give this try. And so, yeah, I mean, credit to him. It wouldn't happen if he hadn't pushed so hard. This is, this is Andreas or this is Jonathan. So that was the JM. It was Jonathan and Mike. And kind of a funny story on that. Sounds very

47:48

regal and official. Yeah. It's a great story. Jonathan and Mike's gold shop versus jam, Boy. Like, that's a So Just step up. We knew so little about this space when we started that we named it Jay Ann Boyien using our initials,

regal and official. Yeah. It's a great story. Jonathan and Mike's gold shop versus jam, Boy. Like, that's a So Just step up. We knew so little about this space when we started that we named it Jay Ann Boyien using our initials,

48:00

and we had no idea that, like, one of the largest finders of Golden Silver in the world as Johnson Mathew.

and we had no idea that, like, one of the largest finders of Golden Silver in the world as Johnson Mathew.

48:06

And so we actually got a big boost early on because people thought we were their retail arm. Right? It was a nice little accidental win, and we didn't get any cease and desist, so that was nice.

And so we actually got a big boost early on because people thought we were their retail arm. Right? It was a nice little accidental win, and we didn't get any cease and desist, so that was nice.

48:15

So yeah, we spin this thing up,

So yeah, we spin this thing up,

48:18

It went live. I think October of twenty eleven. And with the the idea was we're just gonna point our old traffic at the new e commerce site, j m boy in dot com, and it was it was crickets the first few weeks, like zero. I don't think we got an order for three weeks, and I honestly think that was like my mom's friend who she'd like told him to go do it or something.

It went live. I think October of twenty eleven. And with the the idea was we're just gonna point our old traffic at the new e commerce site, j m boy in dot com, and it was it was crickets the first few weeks, like zero. I don't think we got an order for three weeks, and I honestly think that was like my mom's friend who she'd like told him to go do it or something.

48:36

But you don't give up at that point. You didn't give up and, you know, just kept trying to figure stuff out how can we make this work. What's that conversation like? You're three, four weeks in

But you don't give up at that point. You didn't give up and, you know, just kept trying to figure stuff out how can we make this work. What's that conversation like? You're three, four weeks in

48:45

You go to the office, like, does anybody say anything? Like, hey, guys.

You go to the office, like, does anybody say anything? Like, hey, guys.

48:48

Yeah. Well, there was no office. So that was easy.

Yeah. Well, there was no office. So that was easy.

48:51

It was my partner had all the social. Yeah. No office. Partner had all the gold in his little desk drawer in his basement. It could all fit in, like, the the tiny little because you're in the basement. You're like Yeah. No gold is leaving the drawer right now. Staying in the drawer.

It was my partner had all the social. Yeah. No office. Partner had all the gold in his little desk drawer in his basement. It could all fit in, like, the the tiny little because you're in the basement. You're like Yeah. No gold is leaving the drawer right now. Staying in the drawer.

49:04

It was so early that it I wasn't really worried at that point. You know, you, like, what we're doing right now, it's early. You know, you're, you know, it takes years to build these things.

It was so early that it I wasn't really worried at that point. You know, you, like, what we're doing right now, it's early. You know, you're, you know, it takes years to build these things.

49:13

But

But

49:14

we the kind of funny story on this, we eventually out of nowhere start getting, like, big orders. And we didn't change anything. So we're very confused as to what's going on here. Big credit card orders,

we the kind of funny story on this, we eventually out of nowhere start getting, like, big orders. And we didn't change anything. So we're very confused as to what's going on here. Big credit card orders,

49:24

repeat customers over and over and over. Right. Alright. We've

repeat customers over and over and over. Right. Alright. We've

49:28

we've hit it. Like, this is gonna work. And so for, like, two months this goes on, we're getting, like, a hundred two hundred k revenue a month. Or, no. I'm sorry. It wasn't that much. It was probably thirty or fifty grand.

we've hit it. Like, this is gonna work. And so for, like, two months this goes on, we're getting, like, a hundred two hundred k revenue a month. Or, no. I'm sorry. It wasn't that much. It was probably thirty or fifty grand.

49:37

And

And

49:38

Literally on Christmas morning, my partner texts me. He's like, kinda weird. Have you seen the the checking account? I was like, no. And I go and pull it up on my phone, like, Christmas morning with my family around. Yeah. Both the checking account were like negative forty thousand dollars.

Literally on Christmas morning, my partner texts me. He's like, kinda weird. Have you seen the the checking account? I was like, no. And I go and pull it up on my phone, like, Christmas morning with my family around. Yeah. Both the checking account were like negative forty thousand dollars.

49:52

All of it was fraud. Every single order was like credit card charged back fraud. We're we just didn't know anything about any of this stuff. So we had so many of those moments along the way where it was really just two kids you know, figuring out how to run a gold business, and there were a lot of pitfalls that we fell into and fortunately didn't kill us. It's alright. So you recover from Yeah. So I had to put more money in. I was pretty much on the ropes at this point. Right? It was it was like everything it was going in now. This was this was it. This was gonna work.

All of it was fraud. Every single order was like credit card charged back fraud. We're we just didn't know anything about any of this stuff. So we had so many of those moments along the way where it was really just two kids you know, figuring out how to run a gold business, and there were a lot of pitfalls that we fell into and fortunately didn't kill us. It's alright. So you recover from Yeah. So I had to put more money in. I was pretty much on the ropes at this point. Right? It was it was like everything it was going in now. This was this was it. This was gonna work.

50:20

I'm stressing at this point. Yeah.

I'm stressing at this point. Yeah.

50:22

And This is where you start uphill skiing.

And This is where you start uphill skiing.

50:25

So the really the turning point for that company was

So the really the turning point for that company was

50:29

I just took a really honest look in the mirror. And I said, here's J. M. Here's, like, the five biggest companies. Like, if I look at these various, you know, metrics or whatever, you know, how good's their website, how's their pricing, product selection, how fast do they ship, customer service, whatever. And I just basically, like, did a little scorecard for everybody. And I was like, there's no reason anyone would ever buy from us. We're just worse at everything. We have less selection. We didn't even we were so small. We couldn't get a wholesale account. Right. So we were just buying from the cheapest retailer and marking it up.

I just took a really honest look in the mirror. And I said, here's J. M. Here's, like, the five biggest companies. Like, if I look at these various, you know, metrics or whatever, you know, how good's their website, how's their pricing, product selection, how fast do they ship, customer service, whatever. And I just basically, like, did a little scorecard for everybody. And I was like, there's no reason anyone would ever buy from us. We're just worse at everything. We have less selection. We didn't even we were so small. We couldn't get a wholesale account. Right. So we were just buying from the cheapest retailer and marking it up.

50:56

You know, me and Jonathan were answering the cell phone that was our cell phones were the eight hundred number. Right. You know, if we were available, we'd answer. It was just Again, like, why would someone buy from us? So

You know, me and Jonathan were answering the cell phone that was our cell phones were the eight hundred number. Right. You know, if we were available, we'd answer. It was just Again, like, why would someone buy from us? So

51:05

what I landed on, I was like, the only lever we can really pull here is we're just gonna undercut everyone because this is a commodity And it's like buying gasoline. If there's a if there's a store here and a store there, and that one's a penny cheaper, you're gonna pull in there. So I'm like, let's just cut it and see what happens. Because it because if we can get volume and, you know, make that work and and see the top line grow, I know we're gonna be able to figure out margin as we as we go. You know, you're gonna get economies of scale.

what I landed on, I was like, the only lever we can really pull here is we're just gonna undercut everyone because this is a commodity And it's like buying gasoline. If there's a if there's a store here and a store there, and that one's a penny cheaper, you're gonna pull in there. So I'm like, let's just cut it and see what happens. Because it because if we can get volume and, you know, make that work and and see the top line grow, I know we're gonna be able to figure out margin as we as we go. You know, you're gonna get economies of scale.

51:28

So we did that, and that did work. And then we started to see the revenue really grow. So through twenty twelve, we were starting to do, like, you know, a million plus a month in sales, which back then we were really pumped about.

So we did that, and that did work. And then we started to see the revenue really grow. So through twenty twelve, we were starting to do, like, you know, a million plus a month in sales, which back then we were really pumped about.

51:39

And

And

51:40

the problem with this company was it was super capital intensive because you had to stay ahead of the inventory. So, like, if you were gonna be able to ship fast, it had to be, you know, in the drawer,

the problem with this company was it was super capital intensive because you had to stay ahead of the inventory. So, like, if you were gonna be able to ship fast, it had to be, you know, in the drawer,

51:49

when they order.

when they order.

51:50

So I I did another round. I put, I think, my last hundred k in, basically, And then we outgrew that. And I was like, we need someone. No bank's gonna give us any money. We put a deck together and sent it to, like, sixty different, you know,

So I I did another round. I put, I think, my last hundred k in, basically, And then we outgrew that. And I was like, we need someone. No bank's gonna give us any money. We put a deck together and sent it to, like, sixty different, you know,

52:03

angels or VCs and just zero responses. Absolutely. Not even like a, no, thank you. So I was thinking like, who could I get to invest in this thing? And I, called him.

angels or VCs and just zero responses. Absolutely. Not even like a, no, thank you. So I was thinking like, who could I get to invest in this thing? And I, called him.

52:12

And so he was our first Angel investor. You knew him personally at the time? Yeah. So because we were competitors in the in the space, and we went to all the conferences together, and we were both around the same age. And, you know, I just like to, you know, go out have dinners and stuff at conferences.

And so he was our first Angel investor. You knew him personally at the time? Yeah. So because we were competitors in the in the space, and we went to all the conferences together, and we were both around the same age. And, you know, I just like to, you know, go out have dinners and stuff at conferences.

52:25

So we were friends, and he had told me after I sold my gambling business. He's like, you know, whatever you do next, let me know. I would like to invest. So I was like, hey, man. You get the call. I was like, hey, I know you cashed that in. And now what happens? You get the call Did you even know he was doing this in the meantime? I did. You know, I got it. I was excited about being able to be a part of it. But I was like, I don't wanna be operational.

So we were friends, and he had told me after I sold my gambling business. He's like, you know, whatever you do next, let me know. I would like to invest. So I was like, hey, man. You get the call. I was like, hey, I know you cashed that in. And now what happens? You get the call Did you even know he was doing this in the meantime? I did. You know, I got it. I was excited about being able to be a part of it. But I was like, I don't wanna be operational.

52:46

Like, you know, for me, I was just like, I'm trying to do this gambling business, you know, and but I'm excited about Mike. You know, Mike made really good websites.

Like, you know, for me, I was just like, I'm trying to do this gambling business, you know, and but I'm excited about Mike. You know, Mike made really good websites.

52:56

And I was like, if anyone's gonna figure it out, it's gonna be Mike. And so, basically, I invested in him. And,

And I was like, if anyone's gonna figure it out, it's gonna be Mike. And so, basically, I invested in him. And,

53:02

you know, It was

you know, It was

53:04

I I feel like we had a quick negotiation. It was, like, twenty four hours. Yep. You did a great deal. I mean, you had all the leverage like, we were either gonna go under, or you're just gonna write this check. So

I I feel like we had a quick negotiation. It was, like, twenty four hours. Yep. You did a great deal. I mean, you had all the leverage like, we were either gonna go under, or you're just gonna write this check. So

53:14

it's always, like, say, you got an a plus for that guy. James the a plus.

it's always, like, say, you got an a plus for that guy. James the a plus.

53:18

And it was, like, just speed. It was affiliate. You know, we always call it like affiliate speed, where it was just like, we had kinda had a handshake agreement, and then I just wired in the money. Like, we probably didn't even sign anything. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I trust you. You put in one, like, a couple hundred k or I think a hundred k. It was it was a hundred, and then you this was another a plus move. He negotiated, like, another rider of, like, I get to do another fifty at the same valuation at my option, which he then did a few months later as we were growing. Okay. So you put in a hundred fifty k. Yep. That ended up being a good return for you. Like,

And it was, like, just speed. It was affiliate. You know, we always call it like affiliate speed, where it was just like, we had kinda had a handshake agreement, and then I just wired in the money. Like, we probably didn't even sign anything. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I trust you. You put in one, like, a couple hundred k or I think a hundred k. It was it was a hundred, and then you this was another a plus move. He negotiated, like, another rider of, like, I get to do another fifty at the same valuation at my option, which he then did a few months later as we were growing. Okay. So you put in a hundred fifty k. Yep. That ended up being a good return for you. Like,

53:48

what's the multiple on that?

what's the multiple on that?

53:50

I think it was that what? Twenty million? Yeah. Like, twenty three million. Yeah.

I think it was that what? Twenty million? Yeah. Like, twenty three million. Yeah.

53:54

You that's what you net it out. Yeah. That's what I'm

You that's what you net it out. Yeah. That's what I'm

53:57

trying to say. I'm not sure about the valuation.

trying to say. I'm not sure about the valuation.

53:59

No. Because, like, it's Silicon Valley. It's like, oh, you invest the seed thing. Oh, is that a twenty million valuation? No. No. You're saying. Oh, he was in, like, it was maybe a million bucks, a million or two million. We said it was worth a million bucks. No. I don't. Maybe seven hundred k or something was evaluation and that. I sold it for one seventy five. Wow. So you got amazing return there. He turned one hundred k ish into two twenty million bucks. Thanks, Mike. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, do you,

No. Because, like, it's Silicon Valley. It's like, oh, you invest the seed thing. Oh, is that a twenty million valuation? No. No. You're saying. Oh, he was in, like, it was maybe a million bucks, a million or two million. We said it was worth a million bucks. No. I don't. Maybe seven hundred k or something was evaluation and that. I sold it for one seventy five. Wow. So you got amazing return there. He turned one hundred k ish into two twenty million bucks. Thanks, Mike. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, do you,

54:23

He's a bunch

He's a bunch

54:26

of people. I know. Let you know, we could do another business together. Right. I'll actually help this time. Yeah. There you go, man. That was good.

of people. I know. Let you know, we could do another business together. Right. I'll actually help this time. Yeah. There you go, man. That was good.

54:35

Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot? See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but

Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot? See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but

54:41

HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. HubSpot,

HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. HubSpot,

54:49

grow better.

grow better.

54:50

You okay. So you do that. That's amazing. You get the phone call, you do that. You get this

You okay. So you do that. That's amazing. You get the phone call, you do that. You get this

54:54

more money, but it seems like you're just gonna have this problem again. And we did, like, three months later. So we get his last, you know, fifty or whatever it was. And then we were really this it was starting to grow pretty quick at that point. We were up to probably four million a month in revenue, and it was starting to hockey sick. I was like, you know, what are you gonna get so much traffic? It's SEO, basically. Yeah. So that's when the SEO really started to kick in. So initially, it was like, we're gonna we're gonna price cheaper. We're gonna make this appealing to people. Then people started, you know, we get the return customers, get the backlinks going, the site. What do you call this exercise you did where you're like, I took an honest look in the mirror, and I said, it's kinda like, why would it I wanna date a ten. Why would a ten date be? That's exactly that. Right? That's basically what you were saying. It's like, they have all these websites they can choose from. Why would they be choosing us?

more money, but it seems like you're just gonna have this problem again. And we did, like, three months later. So we get his last, you know, fifty or whatever it was. And then we were really this it was starting to grow pretty quick at that point. We were up to probably four million a month in revenue, and it was starting to hockey sick. I was like, you know, what are you gonna get so much traffic? It's SEO, basically. Yeah. So that's when the SEO really started to kick in. So initially, it was like, we're gonna we're gonna price cheaper. We're gonna make this appealing to people. Then people started, you know, we get the return customers, get the backlinks going, the site. What do you call this exercise you did where you're like, I took an honest look in the mirror, and I said, it's kinda like, why would it I wanna date a ten. Why would a ten date be? That's exactly that. Right? That's basically what you were saying. It's like, they have all these websites they can choose from. Why would they be choosing us?

55:36

Shouldn't more companies do that? I feel like most companies don't actually do that exercise. Because it it can be painful because the the answer often isn't what you want it to be. Right? The mirror doesn't look that that the world is wrong and dumb.

Shouldn't more companies do that? I feel like most companies don't actually do that exercise. Because it it can be painful because the the answer often isn't what you want it to be. Right? The mirror doesn't look that that the world is wrong and dumb.

55:48

Yeah. So that's, you know, something I've tried to use over my career and it's been helpful. That's amazing.

Yeah. So that's, you know, something I've tried to use over my career and it's been helpful. That's amazing.

55:53

Yeah, I think more people should do that exercise. And and also

Yeah, I think more people should do that exercise. And and also

55:58

when you do that, I think it,

when you do that, I think it,

56:01

it forces clarity are we gonna be great? Yep. You know, where where what are we gonna be great on? And you decided we're gonna be great on price first. And then we're gonna be great on these other things later. Okay. So you do that. Grows grows grows. You do this for eight years. You sell,

it forces clarity are we gonna be great? Yep. You know, where where what are we gonna be great on? And you decided we're gonna be great on price first. And then we're gonna be great on these other things later. Okay. So you do that. Grows grows grows. You do this for eight years. You sell,

56:13

hallelujah.

hallelujah.

56:14

So that's kinda like your your your big wins. I wanna know Give me some stories along the way on either of the big wins. Maybe a story of,

So that's kinda like your your your big wins. I wanna know Give me some stories along the way on either of the big wins. Maybe a story of,

56:23

you know, something you look fondly at in the early days of, like, you know, one of those, like, wins along the way that felt really good. And then maybe a moment that felt bad. I don't know if you have any stories on on either one of those, I'd love to hear Yeah.

you know, something you look fondly at in the early days of, like, you know, one of those, like, wins along the way that felt really good. And then maybe a moment that felt bad. I don't know if you have any stories on on either one of those, I'd love to hear Yeah.

56:35

This was kind of a mix of good and bad. But so that first year, I think it was before you were in. We had gotten an order from a guy. It was for, like, twenty thousand dollars, which is a a big order for us back then. And he pays us. We ship it. You know, it look it's delivered. Everything's fine. We go on our way. And then we hear from him like a week later that, you know, I was out of town. There's no gold here. You know, I don't know what happened here. And again, we were so naive. We didn't even have, like, shipping insurance. Back then. So there's there was just nothing there.

This was kind of a mix of good and bad. But so that first year, I think it was before you were in. We had gotten an order from a guy. It was for, like, twenty thousand dollars, which is a a big order for us back then. And he pays us. We ship it. You know, it look it's delivered. Everything's fine. We go on our way. And then we hear from him like a week later that, you know, I was out of town. There's no gold here. You know, I don't know what happened here. And again, we were so naive. We didn't even have, like, shipping insurance. Back then. So there's there was just nothing there.

57:04

So we dug in pretty far more like, you know, UPS has the GPS coordinates on your doorstep. You know, the driver is signed an affidavit that he delivered it there, you know, all this stuff. But this guy just kept digging in harder. And he he did this, like, there's a site called ripoff report dot com. Okay. Or anyone can go on there and file, like, hey, this per company or person screwed me. And he did that. And we were so early that, like, there were no jam boy in reviews anywhere. When people search that, that was the number one thing that came up. And it it immediately hit us, like, probably thirty percent of our sales just fell off because every in the gold space, everyone checks. Like they're always worried about getting, you know, road cold. Yeah.

So we dug in pretty far more like, you know, UPS has the GPS coordinates on your doorstep. You know, the driver is signed an affidavit that he delivered it there, you know, all this stuff. But this guy just kept digging in harder. And he he did this, like, there's a site called ripoff report dot com. Okay. Or anyone can go on there and file, like, hey, this per company or person screwed me. And he did that. And we were so early that, like, there were no jam boy in reviews anywhere. When people search that, that was the number one thing that came up. And it it immediately hit us, like, probably thirty percent of our sales just fell off because every in the gold space, everyone checks. Like they're always worried about getting, you know, road cold. Yeah.

57:38

So it was really hurting us. And,

So it was really hurting us. And,

57:41

this guy then went into, like, this kind of sob story of, you know, that was my kid's college fund, if my kid's not gonna be able to go to college, you're you're gonna ruin his life unless you make this right, whatever.

this guy then went into, like, this kind of sob story of, you know, that was my kid's college fund, if my kid's not gonna be able to go to college, you're you're gonna ruin his life unless you make this right, whatever.

57:52

And I was really starting to stress about this. You know, that's not a good feeling. And I don't know this person, but you wouldn't want anyone to to feel like that. So as this draws on and we're finding a conclusion, UPS basically is like, we delivered it. You know, we're wash our hands of this thing.

And I was really starting to stress about this. You know, that's not a good feeling. And I don't know this person, but you wouldn't want anyone to to feel like that. So as this draws on and we're finding a conclusion, UPS basically is like, we delivered it. You know, we're wash our hands of this thing.

58:07

I had caved in. And I was like, I'm gonna personally write this guy twenty two. And that that would have been like the end of my checking account right there. And because I I couldn't even sleep at night. I was feeling so much guilt about this. And so I had I drafted the email that I was gonna send to him. And I was like, I'm gonna sleep on this one more night just to be sure. And that morning I woke up and UPS had gone with waste to his house. And as soon as the police were there, he found it in his closet.

I had caved in. And I was like, I'm gonna personally write this guy twenty two. And that that would have been like the end of my checking account right there. And because I I couldn't even sleep at night. I was feeling so much guilt about this. And so I had I drafted the email that I was gonna send to him. And I was like, I'm gonna sleep on this one more night just to be sure. And that morning I woke up and UPS had gone with waste to his house. And as soon as the police were there, he found it in his closet.

58:32

So that one had a, you know, a happy ending. Fully, but, that was another learning moment for us. It's like, okay. Well, obviously, we need to figure out the the delivery and insurance.

So that one had a, you know, a happy ending. Fully, but, that was another learning moment for us. It's like, okay. Well, obviously, we need to figure out the the delivery and insurance.

58:41

Yeah. I think for you. Painful. Payful lessons learned. Thank you. You gotta do it. So I think, one would be,

Yeah. I think for you. Painful. Payful lessons learned. Thank you. You gotta do it. So I think, one would be,

58:47

face boom

face boom

58:48

and face the or Facebook com dot com.

and face the or Facebook com dot com.

58:52

Wait. Okay. So what are these?

Wait. Okay. So what are these?

58:54

So at the time, originally,

So at the time, originally,

58:57

it was the Facebook dot com. That was, you know, Facebook's domain name. And, you know, I was in college, so I was part of it. And eventually, they dropped the the.

it was the Facebook dot com. That was, you know, Facebook's domain name. And, you know, I was in college, so I was part of it. And eventually, they dropped the the.

59:07

And I knew, like, right away,

And I knew, like, right away,

59:09

I was like, I'm gonna domain squat on things that they're gonna type wrong, you know, paradise poker, you know, same thing. I'm gonna do it for Facebook. So I got the k is by the m. So that's why I registered Facebook. Like on the keyboard.

I was like, I'm gonna domain squat on things that they're gonna type wrong, you know, paradise poker, you know, same thing. I'm gonna do it for Facebook. So I got the k is by the m. So that's why I registered Facebook. Like on the keyboard.

59:25

Wow. You're a man of science. I didn't even realize the precision that you took to this.

Wow. You're a man of science. I didn't even realize the precision that you took to this.

59:30

And then, you know, people forget the dawn dot com. So they, you know, they you know, end up putting the com and then dot com again. And the crazy thing about it was I got to see basically

And then, you know, people forget the dawn dot com. So they, you know, they you know, end up putting the com and then dot com again. And the crazy thing about it was I got to see basically

59:41

Facebook site growth. Crazy hockey stick. Alright. I just went to face boom dot com. Here it goes. I have no idea. Facebook. It goes to Facebook now. They they also figured this out.

Facebook site growth. Crazy hockey stick. Alright. I just went to face boom dot com. Here it goes. I have no idea. Facebook. It goes to Facebook now. They they also figured this out.

59:52

Yeah. So that they might have figured it out one way, but at the time,

Yeah. So that they might have figured it out one way, but at the time,

59:56

I actually ended up selling face boom dot com.

I actually ended up selling face boom dot com.

59:59

For like twenty k. You know, if someone came, it was like, hey, there's a lot of traffic coming here. You know, at that time, you'd have just like, you know, PPC type ads just like really basic text link ads, and you'd make like, you know, a ten cents per click, but there was enough traffic where it made it worthwhile.

For like twenty k. You know, if someone came, it was like, hey, there's a lot of traffic coming here. You know, at that time, you'd have just like, you know, PPC type ads just like really basic text link ads, and you'd make like, you know, a ten cents per click, but there was enough traffic where it made it worthwhile.

01:00:15

So I sold it to them. And I was like, sweet. I still have, you know, Facebook com dot com.

So I sold it to them. And I was like, sweet. I still have, you know, Facebook com dot com.

01:00:21

I'm excited to sell this one.

I'm excited to sell this one.

01:00:23

But little did I know, like, a big old packet of papers comes from Facebook,

But little did I know, like, a big old packet of papers comes from Facebook,

01:00:28

and they're like, hey, that's our trademark. Right. Do you wanna fight this? Do you wanna hand it over? And it was a very easy choice to give them the domain name. Right. So at least I got to sell one of them. That's that's pretty good. Did you, you gotta tell the I'd switch story.

and they're like, hey, that's our trademark. Right. Do you wanna fight this? Do you wanna hand it over? And it was a very easy choice to give them the domain name. Right. So at least I got to sell one of them. That's that's pretty good. Did you, you gotta tell the I'd switch story.

01:00:41

What was that one?

What was that one?

01:00:43

Well, I almost went blind,

Well, I almost went blind,

01:00:46

or at least I thought I was. I thought this was gonna be a misspelling, like,

or at least I thought I was. I thought this was gonna be a misspelling, like,

01:00:49

not Twitch dot com.

not Twitch dot com.

01:00:52

So, like, on my first company,

So, like, on my first company,

01:00:55

you know, the regulator said, as I mentioned, you can't do offshore. If you're gonna do regulated, you have to do regulated.

you know, the regulator said, as I mentioned, you can't do offshore. If you're gonna do regulated, you have to do regulated.

01:01:02

And one of my competitors, I think,

And one of my competitors, I think,

01:01:04

told on me and said, I think Kendall's doing both.

told on me and said, I think Kendall's doing both.

01:01:07

And

And

01:01:09

So I was like,

So I was like,

01:01:10

and so I didn't know any of this.

and so I didn't know any of this.

01:01:12

And I was at an industry conference, and one of the regulators was like, Hey, well, I'd like to meet you for coffee. I was like,

And I was at an industry conference, and one of the regulators was like, Hey, well, I'd like to meet you for coffee. I was like,

01:01:19

Alright. Is this something I should be worried about? Right. He's like, no. No. No. No. Just just come. It's like when Chris Hansen's like,

Alright. Is this something I should be worried about? Right. He's like, no. No. No. No. Just just come. It's like when Chris Hansen's like,

01:01:25

pizza's inside. Come on in.

pizza's inside. Come on in.

01:01:28

You don't go for the pizza. So I just, I, you know, I I walk up there. We sit down, and I think this is gonna be, like, a really friendly conversation. And he's like,

You don't go for the pizza. So I just, I, you know, I I walk up there. We sit down, and I think this is gonna be, like, a really friendly conversation. And he's like,

01:01:37

So

So

01:01:38

we can do this the hard way or the easy way.

we can do this the hard way or the easy way.

01:01:41

And, and, like, at that time, I'm, like, stunned. I'm just kinda like, oh, no. Do I run?

And, and, like, at that time, I'm, like, stunned. I'm just kinda like, oh, no. Do I run?

01:01:47

And so then he's like, you know what? You know, we we've had reports that we think you're doing the offshore.

And so then he's like, you know what? You know, we we've had reports that we think you're doing the offshore.

01:01:53

And, you know, what are you gonna say about this? And at that time, I was like, I'm not gonna say anything. You know, I'm not gonna incriminate myself, but I But it it was wrong. You know, all all like these pages

And, you know, what are you gonna say about this? And at that time, I was like, I'm not gonna say anything. You know, I'm not gonna incriminate myself, but I But it it was wrong. You know, all all like these pages

01:02:04

were basically,

were basically,

01:02:06

algorithmically

algorithmically

01:02:07

updated with these offshore ads that I had no control over. Right. But he didn't know that because he wasn't really familiar with domain parking pages, etcetera.

updated with these offshore ads that I had no control over. Right. But he didn't know that because he wasn't really familiar with domain parking pages, etcetera.

01:02:15

But at that time, I was like,

But at that time, I was like,

01:02:17

I need to talk to my lawyer. Yeah. And then we can talk to you and we can have a lawyer figure it out. I did not have that.

I need to talk to my lawyer. Yeah. And then we can talk to you and we can have a lawyer figure it out. I did not have that.

01:02:23

Yeah. I do these that tell me that I need to say these words.

Yeah. I do these that tell me that I need to say these words.

01:02:27

Exactly. So then it I mean, that was a, you know, terrible feeling, but I was like, okay, you know what? I I'm gonna talk to a lawyer. We'll be able to kind of outline, you know, why you know, what he thinks is not actually happening.

Exactly. So then it I mean, that was a, you know, terrible feeling, but I was like, okay, you know what? I I'm gonna talk to a lawyer. We'll be able to kind of outline, you know, why you know, what he thinks is not actually happening.

01:02:39

But then I get a email from them, and they're like, we need you to come to New Jersey.

But then I get a email from them, and they're like, we need you to come to New Jersey.

01:02:45

And I was like, oh, no. They wanna arrest me. They wanna get me in their jurisdiction,

And I was like, oh, no. They wanna arrest me. They wanna get me in their jurisdiction,

01:02:50

and they are going to arrest me.

and they are going to arrest me.

01:02:53

And at that time, I was like,

And at that time, I was like,

01:02:55

I was talking to my wife, Tessa, like, there's something wrong with my eye.

I was talking to my wife, Tessa, like, there's something wrong with my eye.

01:02:59

And she's like, oh, you know, it'll it'll be fine. And I was like, yeah, I think it'll be fine, but I'm like kinda seeing little specs.

And she's like, oh, you know, it'll it'll be fine. And I was like, yeah, I think it'll be fine, but I'm like kinda seeing little specs.

01:03:05

And

And

01:03:06

it, like, got worse and worse. And at one point, I was like, I can't read a menu.

it, like, got worse and worse. And at one point, I was like, I can't read a menu.

01:03:12

And I went to a then so I went to a specialist,

And I went to a then so I went to a specialist,

01:03:15

an eye specialist, and he thought I had to detach retina. And he was like, oh my gosh, we gotta get you into surgery and all these other things. And then so then he kinda looked a little harder

an eye specialist, and he thought I had to detach retina. And he was like, oh my gosh, we gotta get you into surgery and all these other things. And then so then he kinda looked a little harder

01:03:24

and was like,

and was like,

01:03:26

no. No, actually. Have you been stressed lately?

no. No, actually. Have you been stressed lately?

01:03:29

Very stressed. Very, very stressed. And he's like, yeah, you know, we've seen this. You know, it's just a common thing. You're just stressed. You'll be fine.

Very stressed. Very, very stressed. And he's like, yeah, you know, we've seen this. You know, it's just a common thing. You're just stressed. You'll be fine.

01:03:39

So to end the story, I had to go to New Jersey, talk to the regulators,

So to end the story, I had to go to New Jersey, talk to the regulators,

01:03:43

and I wanted to bring a lawyer.

and I wanted to bring a lawyer.

01:03:46

And they're like, nope, don't bring a lot. It just sued them for the Twitch. Yeah. Exactly.

And they're like, nope, don't bring a lot. It just sued them for the Twitch. Yeah. Exactly.

01:03:50

You blinded me with your hard way, easy way, both sure. We'll have to let the coffee shop.

You blinded me with your hard way, easy way, both sure. We'll have to let the coffee shop.

01:03:57

And they're they're like, do not bring a lawyer because we'll make it hard on you. And I was like, oh my god. Oh, they told you that. Yes. They told me that. So, man, I wouldn't know what to do. Yeah. I wouldn't know, okay. Am I Are they just is this a play? Is this a good cop back up type of are they pushing me around? Or is this real? Yeah. I had no idea, but I was just like, alright. No lawyer. Like, I mean, I'm gonna listen to them this time, but which is funny because the first time they, you know, hey, everything's alright and just come see us. And I sit there. I'm at the off I'm looking around. I'm like, okay, I've been arrested yet, which is good.

And they're they're like, do not bring a lawyer because we'll make it hard on you. And I was like, oh my god. Oh, they told you that. Yes. They told me that. So, man, I wouldn't know what to do. Yeah. I wouldn't know, okay. Am I Are they just is this a play? Is this a good cop back up type of are they pushing me around? Or is this real? Yeah. I had no idea, but I was just like, alright. No lawyer. Like, I mean, I'm gonna listen to them this time, but which is funny because the first time they, you know, hey, everything's alright and just come see us. And I sit there. I'm at the off I'm looking around. I'm like, okay, I've been arrested yet, which is good.

01:04:29

They sit down and they're like, okay. Well, talk to us about, you know, being an affiliate. And then it was like the super cordial conversation.

They sit down and they're like, okay. Well, talk to us about, you know, being an affiliate. And then it was like the super cordial conversation.

01:04:37

And I ended up saying like, okay. Yeah. The these few things

And I ended up saying like, okay. Yeah. The these few things

01:04:40

weren't what they seemed. And here's why. And then they're like, okay, you know, that's fine. But, you know, we just wanna learn more about affiliates because they were like, you know, the first regulators in the United States.

weren't what they seemed. And here's why. And then they're like, okay, you know, that's fine. But, you know, we just wanna learn more about affiliates because they were like, you know, the first regulators in the United States.

01:04:50

And they had never really talked to a large affiliate. And because, you know, we were the only one at that point. Right. So then they just kinda wanted to, you know, do a fact finding mission. And it all worked out. I didn't go blind, and, you know, I'm here today. So I feel like you're gonna be blinded in jail. And you ended up you're not blinded out in jail. Did you, like, pack a jail bag? We'll just prep that.

And they had never really talked to a large affiliate. And because, you know, we were the only one at that point. Right. So then they just kinda wanted to, you know, do a fact finding mission. And it all worked out. I didn't go blind, and, you know, I'm here today. So I feel like you're gonna be blinded in jail. And you ended up you're not blinded out in jail. Did you, like, pack a jail bag? We'll just prep that.

01:05:10

I did not, but my wife was in a hotel, and I was just like, okay. Well, you know, we have enough clothes if we need.

I did not, but my wife was in a hotel, and I was just like, okay. Well, you know, we have enough clothes if we need.

01:05:17

That is amazing.

That is amazing.

01:05:19

You guys are also kinda like

You guys are also kinda like

01:05:21

life hack, life experimenters.

life hack, life experimenters.

01:05:23

I feel like you get just like the you like finding the the clever angles in business. I feel like you do that with with life of, like, you don't just do things exactly the way others do them. You're like, well, why don't I just Do this, you know, instead. And you've done this. I feel like you do the same thing with certain, you know, like, I don't know, lifestyle experiments. So tell us about some of those. What are some things that you guys do with your day to day life that is maybe just not standard, not not exactly what anybody else is doing. Because I think for people listening, they and myself included,

I feel like you get just like the you like finding the the clever angles in business. I feel like you do that with with life of, like, you don't just do things exactly the way others do them. You're like, well, why don't I just Do this, you know, instead. And you've done this. I feel like you do the same thing with certain, you know, like, I don't know, lifestyle experiments. So tell us about some of those. What are some things that you guys do with your day to day life that is maybe just not standard, not not exactly what anybody else is doing. Because I think for people listening, they and myself included,

01:05:50

I love hearing when people don't just, like, follow a, you know, a very standard playbook because it makes me wonder, oh, what's the thought process behind that? Why do they do that? Nine times out of ten, I don't do it myself, but I like hearing those. Do you guys have any, kinda, like, interesting

I love hearing when people don't just, like, follow a, you know, a very standard playbook because it makes me wonder, oh, what's the thought process behind that? Why do they do that? Nine times out of ten, I don't do it myself, but I like hearing those. Do you guys have any, kinda, like, interesting

01:06:05

lifestyle choices or experiments that you do? I think the first one for me was, you know, I was having twins, and I was telling my wife, like, look, we're having twins. This is insane. She's like, yo, I know. Yeah. And she's like, they're in me. I have to do the brat, actually.

lifestyle choices or experiments that you do? I think the first one for me was, you know, I was having twins, and I was telling my wife, like, look, we're having twins. This is insane. She's like, yo, I know. Yeah. And she's like, they're in me. I have to do the brat, actually.

01:06:18

I'm having twins.

I'm having twins.

01:06:20

And I was like, we need to get some help. Like, we need experts.

And I was like, we need to get some help. Like, we need experts.

01:06:24

And so what I did was, you know, I talked to an agency and I just kind of,

And so what I did was, you know, I talked to an agency and I just kind of,

01:06:29

you know, cast my net wide and far. And I was like, I wanna find someone that can help us raise these kids. So you took this seriously. Like, on your to do list was like, I'm going to do a search I told

you know, cast my net wide and far. And I was like, I wanna find someone that can help us raise these kids. So you took this seriously. Like, on your to do list was like, I'm going to do a search I told

01:06:39

you're doing the hard part. I'll do the easy part and just try to find someone that has done this before that can really help us along the way and really, like, kind of make our lives easier.

you're doing the hard part. I'll do the easy part and just try to find someone that has done this before that can really help us along the way and really, like, kind of make our lives easier.

01:06:49

And I found this twin expert.

And I found this twin expert.

01:06:52

She actually lived in New Jersey

She actually lived in New Jersey

01:06:54

And

And

01:06:55

we ended up hiring her for four months for the baby's first four months, and she basically worked with them, like, night and day, eighteen hours a day with them.

we ended up hiring her for four months for the baby's first four months, and she basically worked with them, like, night and day, eighteen hours a day with them.

01:07:03

And, you know, part of it was training us.

And, you know, part of it was training us.

01:07:06

You know, with like a dog, you know, they're like, oh, you know, you don't train the dog. You train the person. Right. And it was kind of the same with us. And really, she put them on, like, an insane schedule where if one was sleeping, the other's once, one was sleeping. If one was eating, the other one was eating, And now they're, like, super trained. So after four months, they slept through the night, and, you know, they were just, like, very schedule oriented. We'd, like, look at the time. It's, like, two o'clock. Okay. They need to eat right now. And they were, like, ready for They were both just Totally ready. Sleep at the same time. Yeah. At the exact same time, like, always. So they really kind of synced up. And that lit made life so much easier because I couldn't imagine. Right. With that. Yeah. Exactly. We basically have, like, one kid that that ends up being two.

You know, with like a dog, you know, they're like, oh, you know, you don't train the dog. You train the person. Right. And it was kind of the same with us. And really, she put them on, like, an insane schedule where if one was sleeping, the other's once, one was sleeping. If one was eating, the other one was eating, And now they're, like, super trained. So after four months, they slept through the night, and, you know, they were just, like, very schedule oriented. We'd, like, look at the time. It's, like, two o'clock. Okay. They need to eat right now. And they were, like, ready for They were both just Totally ready. Sleep at the same time. Yeah. At the exact same time, like, always. So they really kind of synced up. And that lit made life so much easier because I couldn't imagine. Right. With that. Yeah. Exactly. We basically have, like, one kid that that ends up being two.

01:07:48

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

01:07:49

What about you?

What about you?

01:07:51

Yeah. I mean, I followed him on some of this stuff. So he after he sold, he,

Yeah. I mean, I followed him on some of this stuff. So he after he sold, he,

01:07:56

one of the sporges was he hired a chef till I cooked for him. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, that sounds really like bougie. I don't, you know, I don't know. Yeah. That sounds cool. I don't know. And then,

one of the sporges was he hired a chef till I cooked for him. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, that sounds really like bougie. I don't, you know, I don't know. Yeah. That sounds cool. I don't know. And then,

01:08:06

he was telling me about it. And I was like, yeah, this makes a lot of why would I can eat healthier, you know, I don't have to think about it. I don't have to think about what I money, etcetera.

he was telling me about it. And I was like, yeah, this makes a lot of why would I can eat healthier, you know, I don't have to think about it. I don't have to think about what I money, etcetera.

01:08:14

So I ended up finding somebody as well.

So I ended up finding somebody as well.

01:08:16

And then I've come out to see him a few times the last few months. And when we'll be eating, I can, like, see him looking at me because he's so competitive. I know he wants to know. Like, is this better than what I'm eating at home?

And then I've come out to see him a few times the last few months. And when we'll be eating, I can, like, see him looking at me because he's so competitive. I know he wants to know. Like, is this better than what I'm eating at home?

01:08:29

Sadly, the answer is, yes.

Sadly, the answer is, yes.

01:08:31

But you'll never give me that satisfaction just now.

But you'll never give me that satisfaction just now.

01:08:35

Stuff. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. You, you're a foodie. And you so for you, it's like, oh, you're a foodie. That makes sense. But actually, you're more of like a efficiency

Stuff. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. You, you're a foodie. And you so for you, it's like, oh, you're a foodie. That makes sense. But actually, you're more of like a efficiency

01:08:42

guy. And so, you know, people don't realize how much mental and physical energy goes into

guy. And so, you know, people don't realize how much mental and physical energy goes into

01:08:48

feeding yourself three times a day or feeding, in my case, kids also

feeding yourself three times a day or feeding, in my case, kids also

01:08:52

So we have a chef as well, and it's the same same thing. It's like, alright. I just don't have to make decisions

So we have a chef as well, and it's the same same thing. It's like, alright. I just don't have to make decisions

01:08:58

and I eat healthier, and it tastes better because I'm not good at cooking. This person's great at cooking. I was like, any money I could spend on a car, a nice nice whatever.

and I eat healthier, and it tastes better because I'm not good at cooking. This person's great at cooking. I was like, any money I could spend on a car, a nice nice whatever.

01:09:07

I would way rather do this. I would rather have one less employee at work and do more myself

I would way rather do this. I would rather have one less employee at work and do more myself

01:09:12

than than, like, sacrifice on this. For sure. Yeah. And it's like, I think we've both gotten a lot better at you know, if you have a problem,

than than, like, sacrifice on this. For sure. Yeah. And it's like, I think we've both gotten a lot better at you know, if you have a problem,

01:09:20

you can think about how can I fix this problem, like, how can I solve the problem tactically or whatever, or you can just think about who can fix this

you can think about how can I fix this problem, like, how can I solve the problem tactically or whatever, or you can just think about who can fix this

01:09:26

for And and that path is, you know, we use so much more efficiency for you? You can focus on your superpower and, you know, it's obviously been what we've done. And you guys you guys are different in, from most people who come on the show and also most people I hang out with because I'm, you know, we're here at San Francisco. It's mostly

for And and that path is, you know, we use so much more efficiency for you? You can focus on your superpower and, you know, it's obviously been what we've done. And you guys you guys are different in, from most people who come on the show and also most people I hang out with because I'm, you know, we're here at San Francisco. It's mostly

01:09:42

Tech, Silicon Valley,

Tech, Silicon Valley,

01:09:44

and tech is not like like, here's, like, we build websites. But anybody who works in tech here would be like, What do you mean? Like, you're you're making a WordPress site with a a referral link. What do you want? That's not like software. You know, it's on a software startup in the same same vein that most people consider.

and tech is not like like, here's, like, we build websites. But anybody who works in tech here would be like, What do you mean? Like, you're you're making a WordPress site with a a referral link. What do you want? That's not like software. You know, it's on a software startup in the same same vein that most people consider.

01:10:01

And you guys also don't go raise money from venture capitalists. You don't, like, you don't do a lot of the shit that, like, Silicon Valley companies do. What do you guys see as like? What do you like about that? They're like, oh, maybe I should start doing some of that. And what parts are you like? No. My way is different, but I think it's better for these reasons. Guys have any opinions on that? Yeah. For sure. So I, like, I grew up in Buffalo, New York, and I just was never exposed to any of that stuff. So I I didn't know what I didn't know. I was just trying to figure out how can I do what I'm trying to do?

And you guys also don't go raise money from venture capitalists. You don't, like, you don't do a lot of the shit that, like, Silicon Valley companies do. What do you guys see as like? What do you like about that? They're like, oh, maybe I should start doing some of that. And what parts are you like? No. My way is different, but I think it's better for these reasons. Guys have any opinions on that? Yeah. For sure. So I, like, I grew up in Buffalo, New York, and I just was never exposed to any of that stuff. So I I didn't know what I didn't know. I was just trying to figure out how can I do what I'm trying to do?

01:10:29

Actually meeting you and spending more time out here has opened my eyes a lot to that side of the world. I think know, for us, the benefits of funding it ourselves are, you know, obvious we control it. There's there's no one else that's asking us, you know, do this or do that or where's this revenue target, etcetera.

Actually meeting you and spending more time out here has opened my eyes a lot to that side of the world. I think know, for us, the benefits of funding it ourselves are, you know, obvious we control it. There's there's no one else that's asking us, you know, do this or do that or where's this revenue target, etcetera.

01:10:43

We can think really long term about the business. And I love that, you know, we're the decision makers, and we move fast. So it's like once decision needs to be made, it's like, hey, what do you think? Here's what I think. Alright. Let's go.

We can think really long term about the business. And I love that, you know, we're the decision makers, and we move fast. So it's like once decision needs to be made, it's like, hey, what do you think? Here's what I think. Alright. Let's go.

01:10:54

I think one thing you probably lose, though, is

I think one thing you probably lose, though, is

01:10:57

it's in my opinion, it's harder to have, like, the really big outcome. If, like, the things we're doing are his have done. It it's hard to be it'd be like a ten billion dollar company from that stuff. I think going the other path, you know, it's still very, very rare, but it does happen. Right. You don't hear a lot about just self funded this the whole way, and then I p owed it for a hundred billion dollars. Right? That doesn't really happen. So And I think too, you lose time.

it's in my opinion, it's harder to have, like, the really big outcome. If, like, the things we're doing are his have done. It it's hard to be it'd be like a ten billion dollar company from that stuff. I think going the other path, you know, it's still very, very rare, but it does happen. Right. You don't hear a lot about just self funded this the whole way, and then I p owed it for a hundred billion dollars. Right? That doesn't really happen. So And I think too, you lose time.

01:11:18

Like, for us, it was always like we always wanted to operate the business efficiently and profitably.

Like, for us, it was always like we always wanted to operate the business efficiently and profitably.

01:11:23

So things would take time and you'd you'd watch another competitor, you know, raise a bunch of money and do some really exciting things. And you're like, that's really cool. That's not me at this point, but I can see the merits of it. But I think for me, I've always been like, I'm just, again, a control freak. And I was like, I don't wanna work for someone else. And I think with VC, it's kind of the same thing. Right? Like, that is part of it. And, you know, with this acquisition, I feel like you're on our team. Like, you know, you it's I don't feel like it's kind of, you know, you're gonna be on the board. And we're gonna be able to make really big decisions together rather than, hey, I invested in you. I just, you know, are we ten times yet? You know, like, that type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And what about,

So things would take time and you'd you'd watch another competitor, you know, raise a bunch of money and do some really exciting things. And you're like, that's really cool. That's not me at this point, but I can see the merits of it. But I think for me, I've always been like, I'm just, again, a control freak. And I was like, I don't wanna work for someone else. And I think with VC, it's kind of the same thing. Right? Like, that is part of it. And, you know, with this acquisition, I feel like you're on our team. Like, you know, you it's I don't feel like it's kind of, you know, you're gonna be on the board. And we're gonna be able to make really big decisions together rather than, hey, I invested in you. I just, you know, are we ten times yet? You know, like, that type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And what about,

01:12:04

you know, I guess, like, business philosophies. So,

you know, I guess, like, business philosophies. So,

01:12:08

I've heard as we've been talking, some, like, some of your guys' like, isms. It's like, oh, these are Ken Kendallisms. These are Mike isms of a sort of like but I've I've only worked with you for a very short amount of time. So I don't know a lot of them. Yeah. But I'm sure you have them. Right? Nobody goes through years and years of building businesses without coming up with some operating philosophy if, like, you know, here's how to work. Here's how to negotiate. Here's how to build. Here's how to, like, stay the course or whatever. Do you guys have any that stand out to you as, like,

I've heard as we've been talking, some, like, some of your guys' like, isms. It's like, oh, these are Ken Kendallisms. These are Mike isms of a sort of like but I've I've only worked with you for a very short amount of time. So I don't know a lot of them. Yeah. But I'm sure you have them. Right? Nobody goes through years and years of building businesses without coming up with some operating philosophy if, like, you know, here's how to work. Here's how to negotiate. Here's how to build. Here's how to, like, stay the course or whatever. Do you guys have any that stand out to you as, like,

01:12:35

you know, these are my, like, these are these are kind of my pillar ones. This is this is like, I just really believe this and I can kind of tell a story that maybe goes along with that one. And it's a it's a bit of a hard question, but it's I find these if you do have an answer, I find this to be a really valuable one. Yeah. I mean, for me, I feel like you're gonna be right a couple times in your life.

you know, these are my, like, these are these are kind of my pillar ones. This is this is like, I just really believe this and I can kind of tell a story that maybe goes along with that one. And it's a it's a bit of a hard question, but it's I find these if you do have an answer, I find this to be a really valuable one. Yeah. I mean, for me, I feel like you're gonna be right a couple times in your life.

01:12:55

And if you think you're gonna be right, swing big.

And if you think you're gonna be right, swing big.

01:12:59

You know, for example,

You know, for example,

01:13:01

with domain or with,

with domain or with,

01:13:03

Bitcoin.

Bitcoin.

01:13:04

I, you know, I saw it. I was super interested in it. I was like, this could be really cool. Or what time frame are we talking to? This is two thousand thirteen. Okay. You know, it this could be really cool or it could go to zero, but I had this like inclination that it could be, you know, way bigger and I think it has a chance too. And it kind of brings me back to my dad. And this is in the nineties. He was a computer programmer, and he was like, telling our family, like domain names are gonna be big. And I was like, oh, that cool dad. Yeah. You know, and he was like, no, they're they're gonna be big. Every person or company are likely gonna want one. And he bought our last name seville dot com.

I, you know, I saw it. I was super interested in it. I was like, this could be really cool. Or what time frame are we talking to? This is two thousand thirteen. Okay. You know, it this could be really cool or it could go to zero, but I had this like inclination that it could be, you know, way bigger and I think it has a chance too. And it kind of brings me back to my dad. And this is in the nineties. He was a computer programmer, and he was like, telling our family, like domain names are gonna be big. And I was like, oh, that cool dad. Yeah. You know, and he was like, no, they're they're gonna be big. Every person or company are likely gonna want one. And he bought our last name seville dot com.

01:13:41

But didn't really buy anything else at that point. Right. He could have bought I looked it up, like poker dot com, home dot com. So he was right, but didn't swing hard. Exactly. And so when I was looking at Bitcoin, I was like, this is my, you know, domain names.

But didn't really buy anything else at that point. Right. He could have bought I looked it up, like poker dot com, home dot com. So he was right, but didn't swing hard. Exactly. And so when I was looking at Bitcoin, I was like, this is my, you know, domain names.

01:13:55

So I just started buying Bitcoin. And I was like, I am just gonna, like, you know, hold it and just see what happens. What, you know, no matter what, I don't want that, you know, I wish I didn't sell. Right. So I'm still holding it today. And you you you bet big at that time.

So I just started buying Bitcoin. And I was like, I am just gonna, like, you know, hold it and just see what happens. What, you know, no matter what, I don't want that, you know, I wish I didn't sell. Right. So I'm still holding it today. And you you you bet big at that time.

01:14:11

Or I shouldn't say you bet big because you don't often have to put a hundred percent of your chips on on it to because it's like, this is one that it can go big. So I don't even need to put, you know, my entire stack in it. I just need to put enough

Or I shouldn't say you bet big because you don't often have to put a hundred percent of your chips on on it to because it's like, this is one that it can go big. So I don't even need to put, you know, my entire stack in it. I just need to put enough

01:14:24

where if this works, it means something.

where if this works, it means something.

01:14:27

Exactly. Yeah. No. I I mean, I really didn't. I probably put a couple hundred thousand dollars in at that point. Yeah. But I was like, you know, I'll just wait it out. At that point, I think it was around eighty to ninety dollars per Bitcoin. And then now you've seen ups and downs and ups and downs

Exactly. Yeah. No. I I mean, I really didn't. I probably put a couple hundred thousand dollars in at that point. Yeah. But I was like, you know, I'll just wait it out. At that point, I think it was around eighty to ninety dollars per Bitcoin. And then now you've seen ups and downs and ups and downs

01:14:42

along the way, did you

along the way, did you

01:14:44

feel tempted to sell or to,

feel tempted to sell or to,

01:14:47

you know, like, get out exit either either because I got a bunch of profit or

you know, like, get out exit either either because I got a bunch of profit or

01:14:51

Oh, man. Bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, Bitcoin. Maybe I should just get out.

Oh, man. Bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, Bitcoin. Maybe I should just get out.

01:14:56

Not really. I feel like, you know, it was always like, there's gonna be a huge tax set.

Not really. I feel like, you know, it was always like, there's gonna be a huge tax set.

01:15:00

And, you know, so when it was really high, you know, that's what I feel like. And then as it's low, I'm like, you could still, you know, I still think it's got a long ways to go. Right. So for me, I'm just like, this is a long hold. And, you know, we'll see when that changes, but I mean, that's why we started this company. You know, we're really excited about crypto. And we think there's a big future here. So at this point, I'm just gonna, you know, I might die with it. I remember when, so I discovered about the same time, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen,

And, you know, so when it was really high, you know, that's what I feel like. And then as it's low, I'm like, you could still, you know, I still think it's got a long ways to go. Right. So for me, I'm just like, this is a long hold. And, you know, we'll see when that changes, but I mean, that's why we started this company. You know, we're really excited about crypto. And we think there's a big future here. So at this point, I'm just gonna, you know, I might die with it. I remember when, so I discovered about the same time, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen,

01:15:28

And,

And,

01:15:30

I won't tell you the whole story, but, like, let's just fast forward a little bit so I buy a little bit of Bitcoin. I'm like, alright. Great. I'm in the game, baby. And,

I won't tell you the whole story, but, like, let's just fast forward a little bit so I buy a little bit of Bitcoin. I'm like, alright. Great. I'm in the game, baby. And,

01:15:38

There was a run where Bitcoin went to I was buying it, like, four hundred.

There was a run where Bitcoin went to I was buying it, like, four hundred.

01:15:43

Four hundred was, like, my average buy price. And then Bitcoin runs up to,

Four hundred was, like, my average buy price. And then Bitcoin runs up to,

01:15:49

three thousand at the time.

three thousand at the time.

01:15:51

And

And

01:15:52

I go to a wedding And I go to my cousin's wedding

I go to a wedding And I go to my cousin's wedding

01:15:56

and my aunt. So imagine, like, an Indian auntie. Like, you know, she's just like, not who you not

and my aunt. So imagine, like, an Indian auntie. Like, you know, she's just like, not who you not

01:16:02

somebody who I would think would say the word like Bitcoin or Ethereum. She said the word Ethereum, actually. It's a I was like, what the hell?

somebody who I would think would say the word like Bitcoin or Ethereum. She said the word Ethereum, actually. It's a I was like, what the hell?

01:16:10

And she was like, oh, yeah. Big question. Very good. And I was like, oh, why do you why do you say that? And I was like, immediately, my face just dropped because I was like,

And she was like, oh, yeah. Big question. Very good. And I was like, oh, why do you why do you say that? And I was like, immediately, my face just dropped because I was like,

01:16:20

There's no way that she is, like, the one who's on the trend.

There's no way that she is, like, the one who's on the trend.

01:16:24

And she's like, yeah, it's very good. And, I was like, what? And, yeah, it goes up.

And she's like, yeah, it's very good. And, I was like, what? And, yeah, it goes up.

01:16:28

And I was like, that's the whole thinking. Like,

And I was like, that's the whole thinking. Like,

01:16:31

she's like, yeah. Last month, it was this. Now it's this. And before that, it was even lower. It was like,

she's like, yeah. Last month, it was this. Now it's this. And before that, it was even lower. It was like,

01:16:37

Oh my god. This is like a bubble and I was like, I had read about this bubble shit, like, because I graduated twenty ten. So I missed the whole dot com bubble by a long shot. I missed two thousand eight crisis.

Oh my god. This is like a bubble and I was like, I had read about this bubble shit, like, because I graduated twenty ten. So I missed the whole dot com bubble by a long shot. I missed two thousand eight crisis.

01:16:47

I was a sophomore in college and care what was going on in the world. And so I was like, I think this is one of those bubble things. And I was like, You know what? Maybe I should take some profits. And so I go and I try to sell everything on coinbase, but coinbase said limits. Thank god. How much you can sell at a time

I was a sophomore in college and care what was going on in the world. And so I was like, I think this is one of those bubble things. And I was like, You know what? Maybe I should take some profits. And so I go and I try to sell everything on coinbase, but coinbase said limits. Thank god. How much you can sell at a time

01:17:02

so I, like, maxed out the limit for one week. And I think I did it for another week. And I was, like, oh, getting exhausted. Like, by the end, they're, like, the fear had, like, dissipated or whatever. And if bitcoin runs up to twenty k, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, oh my god. I'm the biggest hit. And then it crashes back down. I was like, wow. I have to really have a

so I, like, maxed out the limit for one week. And I think I did it for another week. And I was, like, oh, getting exhausted. Like, by the end, they're, like, the fear had, like, dissipated or whatever. And if bitcoin runs up to twenty k, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, oh my god. I'm the biggest hit. And then it crashes back down. I was like, wow. I have to really have a

01:17:19

bit more of a,

bit more of a,

01:17:21

of a plan as to what I'm gonna do with this. Am I gonna hold this forever? Am I going to hold it to a certain point? What is driving my belief in this so that I'm not just at the whim of like, oh, I hear something and I it scares me. The taxi driver told me something that made me bullish or bearish or whatever on it.

of a plan as to what I'm gonna do with this. Am I gonna hold this forever? Am I going to hold it to a certain point? What is driving my belief in this so that I'm not just at the whim of like, oh, I hear something and I it scares me. The taxi driver told me something that made me bullish or bearish or whatever on it.

01:17:38

We're at a point right now where

We're at a point right now where

01:17:40

probably sentiment about crypto is, like, I don't know, at the lowest it's been and maybe ever, but definitely

probably sentiment about crypto is, like, I don't know, at the lowest it's been and maybe ever, but definitely

01:17:47

Lowe's has been in a while, and for a lot of people,

Lowe's has been in a while, and for a lot of people,

01:17:51

they don't they weren't around for the fourteen crash or whatever. This eighteen crash. It was like, This is their crash where they're like, oh, crypto turned out to all be a scam, I guess, f t x. Is it I I don't know what what was wrong with all this? So that's kind of where people are at.

they don't they weren't around for the fourteen crash or whatever. This eighteen crash. It was like, This is their crash where they're like, oh, crypto turned out to all be a scam, I guess, f t x. Is it I I don't know what what was wrong with all this? So that's kind of where people are at.

01:18:06

What gives you

What gives you

01:18:08

what is your belief based on for crypto? Like, why do you think this is gonna be a thing?

what is your belief based on for crypto? Like, why do you think this is gonna be a thing?

01:18:13

I feel like digital money needs to be a thing. Like, we were literally trying to wire money into this company, and it wouldn't work. And it was just like, what? You know, like, what do you mean it wouldn't work? What was happening? Well, it was Mike had the real issue, but it took you a week. So we we both use the same exact bank. We're with Citi.

I feel like digital money needs to be a thing. Like, we were literally trying to wire money into this company, and it wouldn't work. And it was just like, what? You know, like, what do you mean it wouldn't work? What was happening? Well, it was Mike had the real issue, but it took you a week. So we we both use the same exact bank. We're with Citi.

01:18:31

I don't know. I'm gonna call them. Shout. Yeah. Shout out. Shout on this. Yeah.

I don't know. I'm gonna call them. Shout. Yeah. Shout out. Shout on this. Yeah.

01:18:34

And,

And,

01:18:35

same exact wiring structure. There's just a PDF. We both sent them to our, you know, people there. Said I wanna wire whatever it was into the company. The next day I get the notice from Mercury his hits. And I sent mine, like, four hours before his. And I the whole day I never saw mine come in. So I'm like, that's weird. They had called me. You know, I didn't yeah. I answered all the questions. I had to do the DocuSign, like, text you know, two off, all this stuff

same exact wiring structure. There's just a PDF. We both sent them to our, you know, people there. Said I wanna wire whatever it was into the company. The next day I get the notice from Mercury his hits. And I sent mine, like, four hours before his. And I the whole day I never saw mine come in. So I'm like, that's weird. They had called me. You know, I didn't yeah. I answered all the questions. I had to do the DocuSign, like, text you know, two off, all this stuff

01:18:57

where it never goes. So I finally have to reach out to them again. And I'm like, what's going on with this? And they come back to me and say,

where it never goes. So I finally have to reach out to them again. And I'm like, what's going on with this? And they come back to me and say,

01:19:03

the wire instructions are wrong. And I'm like, well,

the wire instructions are wrong. And I'm like, well,

01:19:06

same bank with the same PDF sent sent the money. So that was an example where, like, on crypto, that would have been a ten second, you know, transaction. So I I agree with him. You know, I'm probably even more into the you know, don't love the government control over all of the fiat currency stuff. I think we're seeing, you know, we're we've starting to see, and we're probably gonna see more of the ramifications of that with you know, debt inflation, those sort of things, and, you know, having another option, I think, is nice. Right. Yeah. So in in the same way, like,

same bank with the same PDF sent sent the money. So that was an example where, like, on crypto, that would have been a ten second, you know, transaction. So I I agree with him. You know, I'm probably even more into the you know, don't love the government control over all of the fiat currency stuff. I think we're seeing, you know, we're we've starting to see, and we're probably gonna see more of the ramifications of that with you know, debt inflation, those sort of things, and, you know, having another option, I think, is nice. Right. Yeah. So in in the same way, like,

01:19:35

government makes all the rules of where you live. Great.

government makes all the rules of where you live. Great.

01:19:39

But if you don't like the way that the government makes those rules, you have a choice. You can move to a different jurisdiction. You can operate by different rules.

But if you don't like the way that the government makes those rules, you have a choice. You can move to a different jurisdiction. You can operate by different rules.

01:19:46

If you don't like the way that the government manages the money system by printing more money or, whatever it may be,

If you don't like the way that the government manages the money system by printing more money or, whatever it may be,

01:19:53

then you could opt into a different monetary system. That's not controlled by the government. That's controlled by, you know, a set of, source code. And the code you know, lives and runs on its own and anybody from anywhere in the world can say, you know what? I don't like my country's monetary system. As my base system, I'm gonna opt into this one. That makes a lot of sense to me. Why do you think people have such a like, what do you think are maybe a set put this put it this way? Do you think are the fair criticisms? So,

then you could opt into a different monetary system. That's not controlled by the government. That's controlled by, you know, a set of, source code. And the code you know, lives and runs on its own and anybody from anywhere in the world can say, you know what? I don't like my country's monetary system. As my base system, I'm gonna opt into this one. That makes a lot of sense to me. Why do you think people have such a like, what do you think are maybe a set put this put it this way? Do you think are the fair criticisms? So,

01:20:21

if you heard the the phrase steel manning, but, like, you know, it's like when you argue the other side in good faith, you say, Here's the here's the best argument I could see against it. What would that be for for crypto? I think like a big one is there are a lot of scammers in the industry.

if you heard the the phrase steel manning, but, like, you know, it's like when you argue the other side in good faith, you say, Here's the here's the best argument I could see against it. What would that be for for crypto? I think like a big one is there are a lot of scammers in the industry.

01:20:35

And, you know, They're able to do that because they don't have a lot of the checks and balances

And, you know, They're able to do that because they don't have a lot of the checks and balances

01:20:39

of the current system. And I think there's a lot of good reasons why that's the case in crypto. But also allows these people

of the current system. And I think there's a lot of good reasons why that's the case in crypto. But also allows these people

01:20:47

to do these kind of nefarious things.

to do these kind of nefarious things.

01:20:49

You know, I was telling people recently. I was like, You know what? Crypto does look really bad. Like, there's no, you know, you can't really argue that fact. Right. But cryptos look really bad know, a lot of times. But then at other times, it looks really good. You know, there are by the way, it wasn't Bitcoin that did something bad. Right? Exactly. You have to sort of separate the two. Right? Like,

You know, I was telling people recently. I was like, You know what? Crypto does look really bad. Like, there's no, you know, you can't really argue that fact. Right. But cryptos look really bad know, a lot of times. But then at other times, it looks really good. You know, there are by the way, it wasn't Bitcoin that did something bad. Right? Exactly. You have to sort of separate the two. Right? Like,

01:21:09

if somebody

if somebody

01:21:11

runs a real estate scheme and scams their investors and you're you think you're investing in some property, they're just pocketing the money and running away with it, or they know, they do something bad to the property, whatever.

runs a real estate scheme and scams their investors and you're you think you're investing in some property, they're just pocketing the money and running away with it, or they know, they do something bad to the property, whatever.

01:21:21

It's not real estate. That was the scam. It was the scammer that was the scam.

It's not real estate. That was the scam. It was the scammer that was the scam.

01:21:26

And I think That's the hard part is that crypto

And I think That's the hard part is that crypto

01:21:29

has

has

01:21:30

it's such a playing field. Right? It's a money business. So so many people that can scam. So it all almost associates

it's such a playing field. Right? It's a money business. So so many people that can scam. So it all almost associates

01:21:36

bitcoin or the underlying thing itself, which is, you know, it's like a rock. It's, like, it's not doing anything.

bitcoin or the underlying thing itself, which is, you know, it's like a rock. It's, like, it's not doing anything.

01:21:42

It associates that with the scam, even though it was the human being who decided to trick people in order to make that happen. Right? Like, that that's the

It associates that with the scam, even though it was the human being who decided to trick people in order to make that happen. Right? Like, that that's the

01:21:50

I think that's the

I think that's the

01:21:52

the hard thing to disentangle. Yep.

the hard thing to disentangle. Yep.

01:21:54

Do you,

Do you,

01:21:56

what was your reaction to, like, all the shit that was going down? Right? We're in the Slack channel talking about, you know, the daily edition, and it it feels like, you know, bad news bears for like, you know, thirty days in a row. Mike, you were living to each of those.

what was your reaction to, like, all the shit that was going down? Right? We're in the Slack channel talking about, you know, the daily edition, and it it feels like, you know, bad news bears for like, you know, thirty days in a row. Mike, you were living to each of those.

01:22:08

Yeah. Were you what did you get? Were you surprised with the FTX thing? What what was your reaction? Yeah. I was stunned by that. I mean, the, you know, I like a lot of people viewed them as, you know, almost like a coin base, which is rock solid, you know, feel good putting your money on there. I would have recommended them to anyone. So I I was really shocked. Same with Genesis. Yep. We have I have money on Genesis that I don't know what's gonna happen to it, but that one was pretty stunning too.

Yeah. Were you what did you get? Were you surprised with the FTX thing? What what was your reaction? Yeah. I was stunned by that. I mean, the, you know, I like a lot of people viewed them as, you know, almost like a coin base, which is rock solid, you know, feel good putting your money on there. I would have recommended them to anyone. So I I was really shocked. Same with Genesis. Yep. We have I have money on Genesis that I don't know what's gonna happen to it, but that one was pretty stunning too.

01:22:29

What's been interesting for the milk road in our businesses

What's been interesting for the milk road in our businesses

01:22:33

You know, this has actually been for growth. A good thing. Right? It would be cover the news. And there's certainly been a lot of news. So we're seeing, you know, record subs coming in that the reader scores have been really good. Seem to be very interested in following this despite the fact that it's been very, you know, negative. So, you know, it's another piece of why we liked your business. It's less correlated in our minds. Directly to crypto prices. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah.

You know, this has actually been for growth. A good thing. Right? It would be cover the news. And there's certainly been a lot of news. So we're seeing, you know, record subs coming in that the reader scores have been really good. Seem to be very interested in following this despite the fact that it's been very, you know, negative. So, you know, it's another piece of why we liked your business. It's less correlated in our minds. Directly to crypto prices. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah.

01:22:55

Amazing. Do we leave anything that we should have should have talked about? We miss any good stories or,

Amazing. Do we leave anything that we should have should have talked about? We miss any good stories or,

01:23:01

or facts that you guys wanted to cover? I don't think I have anything. Alright. Nothing comes to mind. Alright. Well, where should people find you guys? Because I think lot of people are gonna listen to this, but, yeah, these guys are cool. Obviously, Mill Grove, but, like, where do they find you guys personally? I know, Mike, congratulations. Did you tweet the first time today? I had my first tweet today. The first tweet. Yeah. First tweet about acquiring the Mocarazz. Yeah. My Twitter handle is Mike Whitmire, which Kendall helped me acquire earlier. So Last night,

or facts that you guys wanted to cover? I don't think I have anything. Alright. Nothing comes to mind. Alright. Well, where should people find you guys? Because I think lot of people are gonna listen to this, but, yeah, these guys are cool. Obviously, Mill Grove, but, like, where do they find you guys personally? I know, Mike, congratulations. Did you tweet the first time today? I had my first tweet today. The first tweet. Yeah. First tweet about acquiring the Mocarazz. Yeah. My Twitter handle is Mike Whitmire, which Kendall helped me acquire earlier. So Last night,

01:23:25

It's like the the news going out to this morning. And I was like, hey,

It's like the the news going out to this morning. And I was like, hey,

01:23:30

anybody can help me every round to help me figure out how to tweet.

anybody can help me every round to help me figure out how to tweet.

01:23:35

A I've never really tweeted, let alone a thread. He's like, is there a button for the thread? Yeah. And then it was like All I did was just laugh

A I've never really tweeted, let alone a thread. He's like, is there a button for the thread? Yeah. And then it was like All I did was just laugh

01:23:43

I provided zero health. I was like, this is hilarious. And I'm like, do the expert. I'm not doing anything. No. This is hilarious. Basically, Ben helped me out, but it was like a shit show for both of us. He sends his out morning. He misspelled milk road in the first

I provided zero health. I was like, this is hilarious. And I'm like, do the expert. I'm not doing anything. No. This is hilarious. Basically, Ben helped me out, but it was like a shit show for both of us. He sends his out morning. He misspelled milk road in the first

01:23:55

week. He's trying to get that autocorrect. Exactly. You're trying to, you know, figure out a way, but Yeah. I I totally misspelled it. And then I deleted the first tweet, because the tweet read

week. He's trying to get that autocorrect. Exactly. You're trying to, you know, figure out a way, but Yeah. I I totally misspelled it. And then I deleted the first tweet, because the tweet read

01:24:06

is still there. And I did I didn't realize it for, like, twenty minutes, and everyone's like, why is wrong with your Twitter profile? I'm like, I don't know. I think Twitter's messed up.

is still there. And I did I didn't realize it for, like, twenty minutes, and everyone's like, why is wrong with your Twitter profile? I'm like, I don't know. I think Twitter's messed up.

01:24:14

Oh, you at least use Twitter I do use Twitter more than Mike, but I wouldn't say it's still not prolific. Mike, I think you should actually make your Twitter bio because you have no picture or you No picture at the top. I added a picture. You you should keep the no picture, no tweets, just the thread, and your bio should be,

Oh, you at least use Twitter I do use Twitter more than Mike, but I wouldn't say it's still not prolific. Mike, I think you should actually make your Twitter bio because you have no picture or you No picture at the top. I added a picture. You you should keep the no picture, no tweets, just the thread, and your bio should be,

01:24:32

I don't tweet. I do actual work. That should be your whole persona, and everybody should follow that. And that's actually you asked earlier about why we don't that stuff. And somebody that came to mind for me was, do you remember back in the day in the poker affiliate world where

I don't tweet. I do actual work. That should be your whole persona, and everybody should follow that. And that's actually you asked earlier about why we don't that stuff. And somebody that came to mind for me was, do you remember back in the day in the poker affiliate world where

01:24:44

all the, like, mid tier to small affiliates had their, like, blogs Yes. Like the personal blogs. So everybody would, like, I have, like, Mike Whit Meyer dot com. Right. You had something, I think. Yep. And we would all, you know, muse about what we were doing in our business is this and that, doing these posts, feeling good. And then we were at one of these conferences

all the, like, mid tier to small affiliates had their, like, blogs Yes. Like the personal blogs. So everybody would, like, I have, like, Mike Whit Meyer dot com. Right. You had something, I think. Yep. And we would all, you know, muse about what we were doing in our business is this and that, doing these posts, feeling good. And then we were at one of these conferences

01:25:01

and

and

01:25:02

who was the the big jam investor, and he was, like, the biggest poker affiliate probably in the world back then.

who was the the big jam investor, and he was, like, the biggest poker affiliate probably in the world back then.

01:25:08

And this other guy that was similar,

And this other guy that was similar,

01:25:11

Neither those guys did any of that stuff. And, like, every night, we're out in the clubs at these guys tables, you know, hoping they'll give us, like, their drinks and it was kinda eye opening for me. I'm like, there's probably a correlation here. Maybe I should do it those. Yeah. Exactly.

Neither those guys did any of that stuff. And, like, every night, we're out in the clubs at these guys tables, you know, hoping they'll give us, like, their drinks and it was kinda eye opening for me. I'm like, there's probably a correlation here. Maybe I should do it those. Yeah. Exactly.

01:25:23

Maybe I should do the work and do the work.

Maybe I should do the work and do the work.

01:25:26

Can you tell any stories because this guy sounds like a legend. Who who is this person? He's definitely a legend. What are some of the the crazy

Can you tell any stories because this guy sounds like a legend. Who who is this person? He's definitely a legend. What are some of the the crazy

01:25:33

Yeah. Yeah. He's a pretty private guy, but he

Yeah. Yeah. He's a pretty private guy, but he

01:25:36

He's got a great story. We could also, by the way, we could bleep his name. Yeah. Okay. So then it could just be like, you can tell the story without the name. I mean, tell all of his stories.

He's got a great story. We could also, by the way, we could bleep his name. Yeah. Okay. So then it could just be like, you can tell the story without the name. I mean, tell all of his stories.

01:25:44

So

So

01:25:45

crazy story. He's from

crazy story. He's from

01:25:47

he grew up there very,

he grew up there very,

01:25:49

not well off, very poor. Had to leave school in eighth grade.

not well off, very poor. Had to leave school in eighth grade.

01:25:53

To, like, go start making money for his family, whatever.

To, like, go start making money for his family, whatever.

01:25:57

What did he do in the eighth grade? He was, like, working at a hotel or something like that bar bar. And

What did he do in the eighth grade? He was, like, working at a hotel or something like that bar bar. And

01:26:02

I had a boy. Is family? I think his family worked there or dad owned it? Yeah. Something like that. Gotcha.

I had a boy. Is family? I think his family worked there or dad owned it? Yeah. Something like that. Gotcha.

01:26:08

And so I think the first thing he did was he was, like, the biggest eBay power seller, and he was selling, like, CDs and stuff on there. He became pretty big. Made a bunch of money.

And so I think the first thing he did was he was, like, the biggest eBay power seller, and he was selling, like, CDs and stuff on there. He became pretty big. Made a bunch of money.

01:26:18

And then was he just early or is he really good? Or No. We start at the same time as us. He was smart. Like, he was basically kind of roll up all the smaller affiliate. Because he had better deals with all the operators. So he'd buy someone and, you know, it'd be a small affiliate and like, oh, I'm making, like, five times. And he for him, it was, like, This is two two years earnings or one year. He bought my site is how I knew him. My, we we have one super smart buddy who is has his like dominant position in his game I can't say who are those that will give it away. But he has the same strategy where he says, like, he's like, yeah, now it's unfair. He goes, I just go to them

And then was he just early or is he really good? Or No. We start at the same time as us. He was smart. Like, he was basically kind of roll up all the smaller affiliate. Because he had better deals with all the operators. So he'd buy someone and, you know, it'd be a small affiliate and like, oh, I'm making, like, five times. And he for him, it was, like, This is two two years earnings or one year. He bought my site is how I knew him. My, we we have one super smart buddy who is has his like dominant position in his game I can't say who are those that will give it away. But he has the same strategy where he says, like, he's like, yeah, now it's unfair. He goes, I just go to them

01:26:52

and

and

01:26:52

They quote me some multiple,

They quote me some multiple,

01:26:55

but I have a better deal with the payment providers or the affiliate partner. So I they think they're selling at four

but I have a better deal with the payment providers or the affiliate partner. So I they think they're selling at four

01:27:01

times earnings, but it's actually two. The moment I sign the deal, they'll go into it'll go to my payment terms,

times earnings, but it's actually two. The moment I sign the deal, they'll go into it'll go to my payment terms,

01:27:07

and my payment terms are just superior. And so he's like, I could just buy these all day. And I don't have to, like, come up with a genius idea to even grow them because, like, it's baked in to just The fact that I have more scale, and therefore I have better terms. And therefore, like, what they think cost x or drives y revenue

and my payment terms are just superior. And so he's like, I could just buy these all day. And I don't have to, like, come up with a genius idea to even grow them because, like, it's baked in to just The fact that I have more scale, and therefore I have better terms. And therefore, like, what they think cost x or drives y revenue

01:27:24

is actually a different not variable for me.

is actually a different not variable for me.

01:27:26

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why exactly why he bought my business. I poke I poke your affiliate business back then. Yeah. And so he was smart in that he was rolling these up. Was that where where other people not rolling them up back then? He sort of started that. Yeah. I feel like he was kind of a lot of pioneer in our small industries. He's he's just like you give him a business in, like, an Excel sheet in a few weeks to, like, look at it, he's gonna come back with, like, you're the three things that this could be doing that would like ten exit. And that's really what he did for us at JM. Too was I learned so much from him. Like, I I'm a completely different business person, you know, after ten years of working with him than I am now. Like, what's an example that he did at JM? Maybe that was a One thing he helped me. Yeah. One thing he helped me a lot with was, I, especially

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why exactly why he bought my business. I poke I poke your affiliate business back then. Yeah. And so he was smart in that he was rolling these up. Was that where where other people not rolling them up back then? He sort of started that. Yeah. I feel like he was kind of a lot of pioneer in our small industries. He's he's just like you give him a business in, like, an Excel sheet in a few weeks to, like, look at it, he's gonna come back with, like, you're the three things that this could be doing that would like ten exit. And that's really what he did for us at JM. Too was I learned so much from him. Like, I I'm a completely different business person, you know, after ten years of working with him than I am now. Like, what's an example that he did at JM? Maybe that was a One thing he helped me. Yeah. One thing he helped me a lot with was, I, especially

01:28:06

early on, I would really ride the wave of, like, you know, all the credit card chargebacks hit. I'm in despair on my deathbed. You know, we have a first hundred thousand dollar day, like, I'm rate IPL. It was just this very he he used to joke with me. He's like, if we were publicly traded and you set the stock price, it would swing like a thousand percent a day.

early on, I would really ride the wave of, like, you know, all the credit card chargebacks hit. I'm in despair on my deathbed. You know, we have a first hundred thousand dollar day, like, I'm rate IPL. It was just this very he he used to joke with me. He's like, if we were publicly traded and you set the stock price, it would swing like a thousand percent a day.

01:28:24

And one thing you really helped me with was

And one thing you really helped me with was

01:28:27

zooming out and thinking, like, into five to ten year increments. And and if you frame stuff like that, Nothing really ever seems like that big of a deal. There's very few things that happen to you or your business that are gonna materially tre change your trajectory over five to ten years. Like an example, to his credit, the f he put, a million into JM shortly after Kendall did his first angel investment.

zooming out and thinking, like, into five to ten year increments. And and if you frame stuff like that, Nothing really ever seems like that big of a deal. There's very few things that happen to you or your business that are gonna materially tre change your trajectory over five to ten years. Like an example, to his credit, the f he put, a million into JM shortly after Kendall did his first angel investment.

01:28:49

Like, a week before it was gonna close, we had we had done all the documents. It was ready to go. Our credit card processor throws us out. And that was, like, half of our revenue. Just gone. And and it was like a visa thing. It wasn't just them. They're like, this is the underlying network. Yeah. They're growing too fast. Like, we need a big cash reserve. We're gonna work with these guys. Asked us through, like, can you send us your financials? We need a P and L on a balance sheet. We didn't even know what a balance sheet was. Right? Like, we there was nothing we could send to them. So unsurprisingly, they threw us out.

Like, a week before it was gonna close, we had we had done all the documents. It was ready to go. Our credit card processor throws us out. And that was, like, half of our revenue. Just gone. And and it was like a visa thing. It wasn't just them. They're like, this is the underlying network. Yeah. They're growing too fast. Like, we need a big cash reserve. We're gonna work with these guys. Asked us through, like, can you send us your financials? We need a P and L on a balance sheet. We didn't even know what a balance sheet was. Right? Like, we there was nothing we could send to them. So unsurprisingly, they threw us out.

01:29:15

And I went I had to go back to him sort of hat in hand and be like, so,

And I went I had to go back to him sort of hat in hand and be like, so,

01:29:19

yeah, this happened. You know, are we still gonna

yeah, this happened. You know, are we still gonna

01:29:22

do this or not?

do this or not?

01:29:24

And, He was just like Totally understand if you, Yeah. He's just like we really need to I don't really need those. Like, if you would, though.

And, He was just like Totally understand if you, Yeah. He's just like we really need to I don't really need those. Like, if you would, though.

01:29:30

And he's just like, you know,

And he's just like, you know,

01:29:32

we're gonna figure this out. And he still cut the check, and we did figure it out. And there were probably ten more of those times along the way that he, you know, just helped me think about things and the longer increment. Yeah. Because with crypto right now, like, I mean, people would have said,

we're gonna figure this out. And he still cut the check, and we did figure it out. And there were probably ten more of those times along the way that he, you know, just helped me think about things and the longer increment. Yeah. Because with crypto right now, like, I mean, people would have said,

01:29:45

oh, impossible to sell milk road during this time. And with a good deal, you can sell with anything with a bad deal, but possible to get a good deal right now.

oh, impossible to sell milk road during this time. And with a good deal, you can sell with anything with a bad deal, but possible to get a good deal right now.

01:29:52

And I think as a general rule of thumb, that would have been true,

And I think as a general rule of thumb, that would have been true,

01:29:55

but I've always I I hate,

but I've always I I hate,

01:29:59

anything that's, like, you know, this, like, sort of conventional wisdom

anything that's, like, you know, this, like, sort of conventional wisdom

01:30:02

because it's, like, dude, I'm in the outlier business. Like, creating a successful startup is an outlier. Yep. Yep. I'm trying to be, like, you know, super happy and super rich and super fit. That's an outlier. Like, so I don't really need any advice that is about what the general

because it's, like, dude, I'm in the outlier business. Like, creating a successful startup is an outlier. Yep. Yep. I'm trying to be, like, you know, super happy and super rich and super fit. That's an outlier. Like, so I don't really need any advice that is about what the general

01:30:17

out comes are. Instead, I need advice on how to create outlier outcomes.

out comes are. Instead, I need advice on how to create outlier outcomes.

01:30:21

And so

And so

01:30:22

with this, I was like, okay. Well, what would have created an outlier outcome?

with this, I was like, okay. Well, what would have created an outlier outcome?

01:30:26

Okay. Crypto is going, you know, industry gets shook. All the big companies,

Okay. Crypto is going, you know, industry gets shook. All the big companies,

01:30:31

they gotta freeze. They can't make some flashy acquisition right now. That would be impossible. Okay. So I need basically

they gotta freeze. They can't make some flashy acquisition right now. That would be impossible. Okay. So I need basically

01:30:37

independently wealthy individuals. Right? That's that's the first criteria. Second, a lot of people are gonna say, bad news in crypto. Oh, I I maybe I shouldn't do this. Maybe I should see how this is gonna play out. And, no, I need somebody who's got long term conviction, thinks in this five to ten year increments

independently wealthy individuals. Right? That's that's the first criteria. Second, a lot of people are gonna say, bad news in crypto. Oh, I I maybe I shouldn't do this. Maybe I should see how this is gonna play out. And, no, I need somebody who's got long term conviction, thinks in this five to ten year increments

01:30:52

and,

and,

01:30:53

believes in the, you know, the fundamentals and understands that there's gonna be the ups now that actually during the downs is the time to, like, make acquisitions and do things like this. Like, this is the time to play off threats. Right? I feel like everyone on Twitter, there's a lot of Twitter threads about this is the time to build. It's like, I agree. I'm not on Twitter. I'm doing that.

believes in the, you know, the fundamentals and understands that there's gonna be the ups now that actually during the downs is the time to, like, make acquisitions and do things like this. Like, this is the time to play off threats. Right? I feel like everyone on Twitter, there's a lot of Twitter threads about this is the time to build. It's like, I agree. I'm not on Twitter. I'm doing that.

01:31:10

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:31:11

Exactly. The billers aren't reading your thread.

Exactly. The billers aren't reading your thread.

01:31:14

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:31:15

Yeah. So so and then, and that's how we ended up finding, you know, basically the perfect partner at that time,

Yeah. So so and then, and that's how we ended up finding, you know, basically the perfect partner at that time,

01:31:21

to to do this. And so I feel like the,

to to do this. And so I feel like the,

01:31:24

the outlier, you know, if you're gonna play an outlier game and you're gonna you know, you have to if you want an outlier outcome, you gotta, like,

the outlier, you know, if you're gonna play an outlier game and you're gonna you know, you have to if you want an outlier outcome, you gotta, like,

01:31:32

play only by you only have to think in terms of what creates that, not what's the average outcome. Right? Because the average outcome is not the thing you want anyways. So For sure. Yeah.

play only by you only have to think in terms of what creates that, not what's the average outcome. Right? Because the average outcome is not the thing you want anyways. So For sure. Yeah.

01:31:41

Cool guys. This was amazing,

Cool guys. This was amazing,

01:31:43

Kendall, you didn't throw up. I I did it. I did. And I was really nervous before we started. Yeah. I was. I was like, do we have any booze around? Or

Kendall, you didn't throw up. I I did it. I did. And I was really nervous before we started. Yeah. I was. I was like, do we have any booze around? Or

01:31:51

Yeah. But you did you did great. So that was awesome.

Yeah. But you did you did great. So that was awesome.

01:31:54

What's your Twitter handle? Which people? At Kendall Seville,

What's your Twitter handle? Which people? At Kendall Seville,

01:31:57

s a v I l l e. Yep. And then Mike,

s a v I l l e. Yep. And then Mike,

01:32:02

give him a follow. How many followers you got? I'm over two hundred now. Over two hundred.

give him a follow. How many followers you got? I'm over two hundred now. Over two hundred.

01:32:08

Yeah. Mike Whiter, w I t t m e y e r. You guys might get recognized now. When you walk on the streets, you might get a little hit of that fake. Actually, you know, it was funny. Right when we had met the last time before we did the deal.

Yeah. Mike Whiter, w I t t m e y e r. You guys might get recognized now. When you walk on the streets, you might get a little hit of that fake. Actually, you know, it was funny. Right when we had met the last time before we did the deal.

01:32:24

We're walking out of that coffee shop and

We're walking out of that coffee shop and

01:32:27

because they are, I'll see you later, and you you went to go get your Uber. Right? Then there's a guy who's sitting right there the whole time he's waiting. I can see he kept looking at us. He's like, hey,

because they are, I'll see you later, and you you went to go get your Uber. Right? Then there's a guy who's sitting right there the whole time he's waiting. I can see he kept looking at us. He's like, hey,

01:32:34

Sean. He's like, you know, love the podcast, man. I'm I'm traveling for Pittsburgh. I'm just here for the day. I can't believe Mumped into you blah blah. I was like, dude, you should've said that when the guy might buy the company was in, they might have little just, you know, that little, just a little juice of You were joking about that after. I'm like, John probably just paid all these apps. Yeah. It was a genius.

Sean. He's like, you know, love the podcast, man. I'm I'm traveling for Pittsburgh. I'm just here for the day. I can't believe Mumped into you blah blah. I was like, dude, you should've said that when the guy might buy the company was in, they might have little just, you know, that little, just a little juice of You were joking about that after. I'm like, John probably just paid all these apps. Yeah. It was a genius.

01:32:52

Yeah. I was like, it it worked. Like, great job. When when we were selling our first company, I did stuff like that where I was like,

Yeah. I was like, it it worked. Like, great job. When when we were selling our first company, I did stuff like that where I was like,

01:32:58

I knew the it was, like,

I knew the it was, like,

01:33:00

it was to larger comp it was, like, the the big fan companies. So it was, like, corp dev was like the who's who's paying attention to you at that time. And so they would follow me on Twitter of an Instagram, stuff like that. So I would just post like a

it was to larger comp it was, like, the the big fan companies. So it was, like, corp dev was like the who's who's paying attention to you at that time. And so they would follow me on Twitter of an Instagram, stuff like that. So I would just post like a

01:33:13

ticket to, like, Seattle,

ticket to, like, Seattle,

01:33:15

you know, one day trip anybody around in the evening, and it's, like, Why would he go to Seattle? Who's in Seattle? Why would he go for a day? That's gotta be a busy meeting who they're they're talking to them. Alright. Come back and be like, you know, when it rains it pours, and it's like, and I would just toast these cryptic things. Because in my mind, I was like, I'm just planting the seed, baby.

you know, one day trip anybody around in the evening, and it's, like, Why would he go to Seattle? Who's in Seattle? Why would he go for a day? That's gotta be a busy meeting who they're they're talking to them. Alright. Come back and be like, you know, when it rains it pours, and it's like, and I would just toast these cryptic things. Because in my mind, I was like, I'm just planting the seed, baby.

01:33:34

I have no idea if this did anything, but,

I have no idea if this did anything, but,

01:33:37

In my head, I was like, I'm really playing everybody off of each other. I thought I was like, you know, Leon. Yeah. Catch me if you can, type of guy.

In my head, I was like, I'm really playing everybody off of each other. I thought I was like, you know, Leon. Yeah. Catch me if you can, type of guy.

01:33:45

Alright, guys. That was awesome. Yeah. We're good. Thank you. Thank you so much. And one thing is, milk rose hiring. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're looking for, you know, those a players that have done it before because, you know, we wanna scale this and, do it as quickly as we can. And I should say I,

Alright, guys. That was awesome. Yeah. We're good. Thank you. Thank you so much. And one thing is, milk rose hiring. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're looking for, you know, those a players that have done it before because, you know, we wanna scale this and, do it as quickly as we can. And I should say I,

01:34:02

Like, when we were looking at this deal, we we actually had a a higher offer that we turned down. One of the reasons why I told Ben, I was like,

Like, when we were looking at this deal, we we actually had a a higher offer that we turned down. One of the reasons why I told Ben, I was like,

01:34:09

I went to your Twitter feed, and I saw

I went to your Twitter feed, and I saw

01:34:12

your tweets from back in the day that were like crypto punks. Cool. I think crypto punks are cool, actually. And I looked looked at the date I looked at what the price was then. Like, what would the what were people thinking then? And you were like, I had a curve. Then you had another one this exchange that you had a mess in rain. And I was like, Oh, dude. I've been trying to get into, you know, terrain at that. I had tried to invest at a point in time. I was like, he was in there early. And I was like, I feel like

your tweets from back in the day that were like crypto punks. Cool. I think crypto punks are cool, actually. And I looked looked at the date I looked at what the price was then. Like, what would the what were people thinking then? And you were like, I had a curve. Then you had another one this exchange that you had a mess in rain. And I was like, Oh, dude. I've been trying to get into, you know, terrain at that. I had tried to invest at a point in time. I was like, he was in there early. And I was like, I feel like

01:34:35

If I just hang out with these guys more, I'm gonna get more value out of something completely unrelated to Milk Road. Just there's gonna be some random you're gonna be like, oh, dude. That's true, sir. Yeah. Yeah. I hear exactly. You can if I just throw me a roadster. I was like, there's gonna be something like that I'm gonna get just out of hanging with it. Like, I'm a big believer in that. Like, if you find exceptional people,

If I just hang out with these guys more, I'm gonna get more value out of something completely unrelated to Milk Road. Just there's gonna be some random you're gonna be like, oh, dude. That's true, sir. Yeah. Yeah. I hear exactly. You can if I just throw me a roadster. I was like, there's gonna be something like that I'm gonna get just out of hanging with it. Like, I'm a big believer in that. Like, if you find exceptional people,

01:34:56

you don't even have to have a plan. Like, just hang with them. Find some routine or value exchange where you're gonna be in each other's orbit all the time because something good's gonna come out of that. And so similarly, if somebody wants to work at the milk road. I would say, like,

you don't even have to have a plan. Like, just hang with them. Find some routine or value exchange where you're gonna be in each other's orbit all the time because something good's gonna come out of that. And so similarly, if somebody wants to work at the milk road. I would say, like,

01:35:11

cool. It's gonna have good pay. It's a cool pro project. People really love the product. That's that's all true.

cool. It's gonna have good pay. It's a cool pro project. People really love the product. That's that's all true.

01:35:17

But also, like, the same reason I wanted to to sell and work with you guys is the same reason really anybody should wanna do that. Like, if you heard the stories of this podcast, you're probably like, God, these guys are awesome. Like, they they went through a bunch of shit, but they figure stuff out, and they play their own game. Those are the type of people who you wanna, like, work with. Even if you're, like, Alright. Someday, I wanna be more more entrepreneurial than I am today.

But also, like, the same reason I wanted to to sell and work with you guys is the same reason really anybody should wanna do that. Like, if you heard the stories of this podcast, you're probably like, God, these guys are awesome. Like, they they went through a bunch of shit, but they figure stuff out, and they play their own game. Those are the type of people who you wanna, like, work with. Even if you're, like, Alright. Someday, I wanna be more more entrepreneurial than I am today.

01:35:38

You wanna get a job where you're kind of in direct proximity with people who are very much like that because it'll change the way your own brain works. For sure. You wanna get in shape? Hang out with fit people. Yeah. It's like for sure. Yeah. Yeah. When we what was the body fat challenge? Did you win

You wanna get a job where you're kind of in direct proximity with people who are very much like that because it'll change the way your own brain works. For sure. You wanna get in shape? Hang out with fit people. Yeah. It's like for sure. Yeah. Yeah. When we what was the body fat challenge? Did you win

01:35:52

Well,

Well,

01:35:53

last time we hung out, he was at, like, day. That's how we're gonna finish the pause. Yeah. I gotta know.

last time we hung out, he was at, like, day. That's how we're gonna finish the pause. Yeah. I gotta know.

01:35:59

So What was the challenge? You you were at the end of a challenge about it. Yeah. I'm in a group called Entrepreneurs Organization. I'm gonna form with seven other Dallas entrepreneurs. We meet monthly. We do a retreat once a year. In in advance of the retreat, everybody sets themself a fitness goal and everybody puts in, like, five hundred bucks that if you hit your goal, you get your money back. If you don't, it goes towards funding the retreat. So no win. Just a It's just not loose. Yeah. Just to not lose and avoid the shame.

So What was the challenge? You you were at the end of a challenge about it. Yeah. I'm in a group called Entrepreneurs Organization. I'm gonna form with seven other Dallas entrepreneurs. We meet monthly. We do a retreat once a year. In in advance of the retreat, everybody sets themself a fitness goal and everybody puts in, like, five hundred bucks that if you hit your goal, you get your money back. If you don't, it goes towards funding the retreat. So no win. Just a It's just not loose. Yeah. Just to not lose and avoid the shame.

01:36:25

So

So

01:36:26

maybe three months out, everybody sets their goals. And I thought I was, like, fifteen percent body fat at that time. So I was, like, I'm gonna get to I've never done that before. I'm gonna go for it. Let's do it. So I, you know, slam it down on the table. I'm like, boys, I'm doing it. And then I I start working really hard the next two months. And

maybe three months out, everybody sets their goals. And I thought I was, like, fifteen percent body fat at that time. So I was, like, I'm gonna get to I've never done that before. I'm gonna go for it. Let's do it. So I, you know, slam it down on the table. I'm like, boys, I'm doing it. And then I I start working really hard the next two months. And

01:36:43

a month out, I'm like, I'm gonna go get a Dex to the seat. Like, I think I'm probably eleven somewhere in there. Like, I gotta be really I'm almost there. I'm almost there. And I had, like, leaned out in the mirror materially. And I'd go and get the decks, and I was fifteen seven.

a month out, I'm like, I'm gonna go get a Dex to the seat. Like, I think I'm probably eleven somewhere in there. Like, I gotta be really I'm almost there. I'm almost there. And I had, like, leaned out in the mirror materially. And I'd go and get the decks, and I was fifteen seven.

01:36:56

So I was nowhere near where I thought I was. And then I really, like, killed myself that next month, and I ended up getting down to like twelve one. Twelve one. Okay.

So I was nowhere near where I thought I was. And then I really, like, killed myself that next month, and I ended up getting down to like twelve one. Twelve one. Okay.

01:37:04

But lucky for me, some of the guys in Schedule Lexus, so the body fat guys were like, we're gonna consider it acceptable to use those scale things. And on the scale, I was, like, eight something. So I got my five hundred back. Oh, okay. What? Yeah. The good guys But the reality is, I did not, my goal

But lucky for me, some of the guys in Schedule Lexus, so the body fat guys were like, we're gonna consider it acceptable to use those scale things. And on the scale, I was, like, eight something. So I got my five hundred back. Oh, okay. What? Yeah. The good guys But the reality is, I did not, my goal

01:37:19

Yeah. You were, like, really hard car about it. No. It's strong. You were, like, not eating any of the carbs. It was just, like, really sad. You were in the corner. Yeah. It was definitely sad. Oh, man. Like, the chef just made this really cool thing, and I can't eat any of it. Alright. Does Mike really do this five hundred dollars?

Yeah. You were, like, really hard car about it. No. It's strong. You were, like, not eating any of the carbs. It was just, like, really sad. You were in the corner. Yeah. It was definitely sad. Oh, man. Like, the chef just made this really cool thing, and I can't eat any of it. Alright. Does Mike really do this five hundred dollars?

01:37:33

No. Mike needs to not lose. Mike does not like to lose at anything. Yep. And he set himself a stupid goal that he has to hit now. Next year though, I'm gonna get Yeah. What I would have done is I would have been, like, what am I now and just, like, do done, like, one percent under that? Just, like, make sure I win. Yeah. Mike wants to make his life hard and go up, though. No. Last year, I I probably weighed like a hundred seventy five pounds or once eighty or something like that. And everyone at the table did like a weight loss thing. So I just thought that's what these were. It was like one of the I think it was the first year we And so I was like, well, I wanna get down to, you know, one seventy five. And they're like, well, what are you now? I'm like, one seventy eight?

No. Mike needs to not lose. Mike does not like to lose at anything. Yep. And he set himself a stupid goal that he has to hit now. Next year though, I'm gonna get Yeah. What I would have done is I would have been, like, what am I now and just, like, do done, like, one percent under that? Just, like, make sure I win. Yeah. Mike wants to make his life hard and go up, though. No. Last year, I I probably weighed like a hundred seventy five pounds or once eighty or something like that. And everyone at the table did like a weight loss thing. So I just thought that's what these were. It was like one of the I think it was the first year we And so I was like, well, I wanna get down to, you know, one seventy five. And they're like, well, what are you now? I'm like, one seventy eight?

01:38:11

What do you want me to do? It's forty pounds. Yeah.

What do you want me to do? It's forty pounds. Yeah.

01:38:14

It's not my fault. You guys have been slang.

It's not my fault. You guys have been slang.

01:38:17

Yeah. You need to write a book called going uphill. Going up there. Yeah. I feel like that's gonna be your your book. Yeah. It'll be the bio. You know, when you're done working, then you can start tweeting your your uphill. About your uphill book. I actually have one last uphill story away. Yeah. Give it though. So in White Fish this year, I mentioned we were doing,

Yeah. You need to write a book called going uphill. Going up there. Yeah. I feel like that's gonna be your your book. Yeah. It'll be the bio. You know, when you're done working, then you can start tweeting your your uphill. About your uphill book. I actually have one last uphill story away. Yeah. Give it though. So in White Fish this year, I mentioned we were doing,

01:38:32

I was doing this in the resort. And they would open it like an hour before the lifts ran. So only the people going uphill. I guess just because it's safer. There's not a ton of people coming down.

I was doing this in the resort. And they would open it like an hour before the lifts ran. So only the people going uphill. I guess just because it's safer. There's not a ton of people coming down.

01:38:41

So there was one morning. It was, like, negative ten wind chill.

So there was one morning. It was, like, negative ten wind chill.

01:38:46

They actually never even opened the the resort that day. It was too windy. It was just miserable out. So I was like, alright.

They actually never even opened the the resort that day. It was too windy. It was just miserable out. So I was like, alright.

01:38:52

Perfect. Optim conditions, optimal conditions. So I suit up. You rang.

Perfect. Optim conditions, optimal conditions. So I suit up. You rang.

01:38:57

I suit up and get out there.

I suit up and get out there.

01:38:59

And, I had just gotten, like, I'd never done this in a resort. And I really had only done this maybe five times with my buddy who always was like, the Sherpa. He was like, you know, help me figure stuff out, whatever.

And, I had just gotten, like, I'd never done this in a resort. And I really had only done this maybe five times with my buddy who always was like, the Sherpa. He was like, you know, help me figure stuff out, whatever.

01:39:10

So there's this route you have to take up the hill.

So there's this route you have to take up the hill.

01:39:13

And

And

01:39:14

I was the first one going. It was like six AM, and I'm just I'm going straight up that path. I'm like marching doing well, feeling good. And then there's this one sec because I'd done it a few times, so I knew there was this one section that was pretty steep. And there were a few times going up that the skins would like start to slip a little bit, and I was getting really scared because I don't ski. Like, if this thing turns around, I'm like, I had I can't do anything. I'm gonna hook you up.

I was the first one going. It was like six AM, and I'm just I'm going straight up that path. I'm like marching doing well, feeling good. And then there's this one sec because I'd done it a few times, so I knew there was this one section that was pretty steep. And there were a few times going up that the skins would like start to slip a little bit, and I was getting really scared because I don't ski. Like, if this thing turns around, I'm like, I had I can't do anything. I'm gonna hook you up.

01:39:36

And so I'm going straight up this thing, like, marching the winds blasted me. The ice is blasting me. And I I'm one step away from the top, and I take the step, and it slips and the whole thing just falls apart. And I'm falling backwards downhill, doing the somersault thing, like, this skis go flying off that whole thing.

And so I'm going straight up this thing, like, marching the winds blasted me. The ice is blasting me. And I I'm one step away from the top, and I take the step, and it slips and the whole thing just falls apart. And I'm falling backwards downhill, doing the somersault thing, like, this skis go flying off that whole thing.

01:39:54

So I'm at the bottom, and I am very humbled now because there's like twenty I realized there's like twenty people behind me who just

So I'm at the bottom, and I am very humbled now because there's like twenty I realized there's like twenty people behind me who just

01:40:01

and I'm gathering all my stuff like they're helping me out.

and I'm gathering all my stuff like they're helping me out.

01:40:04

And I look up the hill because they're starting to go. And all of them are zigzagging

And I look up the hill because they're starting to go. And all of them are zigzagging

01:40:10

back and forth, so it's not as steep. And I was going straight flying directly up the hill. I'm like, oh, that's why they're not falling.

back and forth, so it's not as steep. And I was going straight flying directly up the hill. I'm like, oh, that's why they're not falling.

01:40:18

Wouldn't have any other way. Yeah. There you go. Metformable.

Wouldn't have any other way. Yeah. There you go. Metformable.

01:40:22

Awesome. Well, thanks guys for doing this. I I know a little out of your comfort zone, but I'm glad you guys did it. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Appreciate it. Cool. Alright.

Awesome. Well, thanks guys for doing this. I I know a little out of your comfort zone, but I'm glad you guys did it. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Appreciate it. Cool. Alright.

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