00:00

I remember there were times where the thing I needed, it would cost, like, fifty dollars. And I was just, like, it was it was inconceivable that I could afford it. I mean, like, Honestly, oculus owes more to the iPhone than anything else. I mean, like,

I remember there were times where the thing I needed, it would cost, like, fifty dollars. And I was just, like, it was it was inconceivable that I could afford it. I mean, like, Honestly, oculus owes more to the iPhone than anything else. I mean, like,

00:13

if the iPhone wouldn't have existed, there wouldn't have been broken iPhones for me to buy unlock repair and sell on eBay. Like, and I because I made tens of thousands of dollars as a teenager,

if the iPhone wouldn't have existed, there wouldn't have been broken iPhones for me to buy unlock repair and sell on eBay. Like, and I because I made tens of thousands of dollars as a teenager,

00:24

on that on that side hustle.

on that on that side hustle.

00:26

Like, if if that had not happened, then oculus probably wouldn't exist today.

Like, if if that had not happened, then oculus probably wouldn't exist today.

00:36

What's up? We got Palmer Lucky on the podcast. Palmer is a billionaire. He created oculus

What's up? We got Palmer Lucky on the podcast. Palmer is a billionaire. He created oculus

00:41

which he sold to Facebook.

which he sold to Facebook.

00:43

He's created Andrew, which is now one of the biggest, like, government. They make weapons for the government. And,

He's created Andrew, which is now one of the biggest, like, government. They make weapons for the government. And,

00:49

super interesting guy. I'm gonna call it right now. I think this is a all timer episode. I don't know what's I don't you know, you guys know. I don't hype it up like that unless it's legit.

super interesting guy. I'm gonna call it right now. I think this is a all timer episode. I don't know what's I don't you know, you guys know. I don't hype it up like that unless it's legit.

00:57

This was an all timer episode. Sam, what are some of the things that we talked about? So early on, we asked him basically what he did with his money. So he made hundreds of millions of dollars at the age of like twenty three or something like that. And we said, where did you put your money? And he was very clear on what he did with it. He talked about some of his early crypto investments. So he bought, crypto way, way early, like in twenty ten, I think he said. He talked about how he's making minimum wage and then became a billionaire, like, four or five years after just making minimum wage. What else?

This was an all timer episode. Sam, what are some of the things that we talked about? So early on, we asked him basically what he did with his money. So he made hundreds of millions of dollars at the age of like twenty three or something like that. And we said, where did you put your money? And he was very clear on what he did with it. He talked about some of his early crypto investments. So he bought, crypto way, way early, like in twenty ten, I think he said. He talked about how he's making minimum wage and then became a billionaire, like, four or five years after just making minimum wage. What else?

01:26

We talked about a couple of different things. Where he likes to hang out on the internet? We're like, dude, where do you how do you know about all this stuff? Where do you learn this stuff? What are your subreddits? What are you are you listening to when reading? Cause I need to start doing some of that. So he told us some of his By the way, do you remember? He actually said a Facebook group that he liked. And he actually named the Facebook group. I just wanted to get a lot more popular.

We talked about a couple of different things. Where he likes to hang out on the internet? We're like, dude, where do you how do you know about all this stuff? Where do you learn this stuff? What are your subreddits? What are you are you listening to when reading? Cause I need to start doing some of that. So he told us some of his By the way, do you remember? He actually said a Facebook group that he liked. And he actually named the Facebook group. I just wanted to get a lot more popular.

01:47

And then,

And then,

01:48

yeah, he talked about basically, like, is World War three gonna happen? Right? He's he's supplying,

yeah, he talked about basically, like, is World War three gonna happen? Right? He's he's supplying,

01:53

you know, that his company builds tech for the defense department, the Department of Defense. And so is world war three gonna happen? Is there gonna be a nuke? What is a tactical luke? Well, you ask them a very specific question. You go, is Russia gonna drop a clear bomb. And his perspective is interesting. I thought it was a good question. And then the best part was we said, alright. You sold oculus

you know, that his company builds tech for the defense department, the Department of Defense. And so is world war three gonna happen? Is there gonna be a nuke? What is a tactical luke? Well, you ask them a very specific question. You go, is Russia gonna drop a clear bomb. And his perspective is interesting. I thought it was a good question. And then the best part was we said, alright. You sold oculus

02:12

And then you create an Android, which is an even bigger success. I think it's, like, value to eight billion dollars or something.

And then you create an Android, which is an even bigger success. I think it's, like, value to eight billion dollars or something.

02:18

But there was many years in between. Did you consider doing any other ideas? And he opened up, and he was like, yeah, actually,

But there was many years in between. Did you consider doing any other ideas? And he opened up, and he was like, yeah, actually,

02:23

there were these two or three other ideas. He had an idea about, creating a new kind of prison.

there were these two or three other ideas. He had an idea about, creating a new kind of prison.

02:28

He had an idea that would try to solve obesity

He had an idea that would try to solve obesity

02:32

he had he had a couple ideas and we go into depth brainstorming with him. So he had it all, man. He had the the crazy backstory, the success story, but he also brought ideas.

he had he had a couple ideas and we go into depth brainstorming with him. So he had it all, man. He had the the crazy backstory, the success story, but he also brought ideas.

02:41

And then he also argued with us about why he flies coach, even though he's a billionaire,

And then he also argued with us about why he flies coach, even though he's a billionaire,

02:45

and,

and,

02:46

why he may or may not get into a fight with Jason Calicanis.

why he may or may not get into a fight with Jason Calicanis.

02:49

And so this episode had it all. Had fighting, had ideas, had success stories. It's got it all. Alright. Enjoy this episode with Palmer Lucky.

And so this episode had it all. Had fighting, had ideas, had success stories. It's got it all. Alright. Enjoy this episode with Palmer Lucky.

02:57

I I don't know. You don't need too much of an intro, but I'll do it anyways. Palmer Lucky is here.

I I don't know. You don't need too much of an intro, but I'll do it anyways. Palmer Lucky is here.

03:03

Created oculus,

Created oculus,

03:04

created Andrew.

created Andrew.

03:07

Really interesting dude. And, and I think, you know, we have a bunch of topics. I'm not gonna kind of belabor the intro. Sam, I know you've been itching. We we just you probably can't say the DM. You you you you sent to try to get Palmer on here. You really wanted this man on the podcast. Why? My my first specialist to you, Sam, why? So, Palmer,

Really interesting dude. And, and I think, you know, we have a bunch of topics. I'm not gonna kind of belabor the intro. Sam, I know you've been itching. We we just you probably can't say the DM. You you you you sent to try to get Palmer on here. You really wanted this man on the podcast. Why? My my first specialist to you, Sam, why? So, Palmer,

03:25

I am, like, the king of left handed compliments.

I am, like, the king of left handed compliments.

03:27

At least that's what they say about me, but I I mean him as handed compliments or right handed compliments, but, basically, I love freaks. I love weirdos. I love extremists,

At least that's what they say about me, but I I mean him as handed compliments or right handed compliments, but, basically, I love freaks. I love weirdos. I love extremists,

03:36

not, like, in the political sense, but, in the sense of, like, people who just go all in on stuff and are just

not, like, in the political sense, but, in the sense of, like, people who just go all in on stuff and are just

03:42

passionate about maybe like nerdy or unconventional

passionate about maybe like nerdy or unconventional

03:46

things,

things,

03:47

and you go all in on things. And I love that. I love people. Even if I don't like what they're going going all in on, I I'm crazy fascinated by that. And you see one of those guys who's just all in on things. You've done a lot at a young age, and I like weirdos. And I I put you in that in that category. Thank you. I'm happy to be happy to be a weirdo. You know, I'd I'd rather be I'd rather I'd rather be a person that,

and you go all in on things. And I love that. I love people. Even if I don't like what they're going going all in on, I I'm crazy fascinated by that. And you see one of those guys who's just all in on things. You've done a lot at a young age, and I like weirdos. And I I put you in that in that category. Thank you. I'm happy to be happy to be a weirdo. You know, I'd I'd rather be I'd rather I'd rather be a person that,

04:08

that that that that people think ill or or or well of than somebody nobody thinks of at all. I think, well, it'd be, by the way. I think, well, he's had a poster at his office that was, like, for his employees. He was, like, let your freak flag fly. That was, like, you know, one of those, like, you know, corporate values typically, like, integrity

that that that that people think ill or or or well of than somebody nobody thinks of at all. I think, well, it'd be, by the way. I think, well, he's had a poster at his office that was, like, for his employees. He was, like, let your freak flag fly. That was, like, you know, one of those, like, you know, corporate values typically, like, integrity

04:24

and, like, determination, and his was, like, be a freak.

and, like, determination, and his was, like, be a freak.

04:28

Alright. So so let's start with,

Alright. So so let's start with,

04:30

I don't know. Let's start with some of the kind of we're gonna try to as much as we can avoid

I don't know. Let's start with some of the kind of we're gonna try to as much as we can avoid

04:36

VR and avoid the Facebook stuff because mostly just because you've talked about it in a bunch of places, I'm act frankly, I'm interested because I am actually a VR fanboy, but Sam has has tried to forbid me from from ask those questions. So we're gonna leave that at the end if I get a little extra time. But this is a podcast that started is called my first million because we're interested in money,

VR and avoid the Facebook stuff because mostly just because you've talked about it in a bunch of places, I'm act frankly, I'm interested because I am actually a VR fanboy, but Sam has has tried to forbid me from from ask those questions. So we're gonna leave that at the end if I get a little extra time. But this is a podcast that started is called my first million because we're interested in money,

04:54

and we think it's really funny that people are tapped, like, money's like, you know, silicon Valley thing is to pretend you don't like money. And, like, you know, you're talking about. Yeah. You know, we're not we're not doing it here for the money, you know, this money money money's, you know, money money's not the real objective. Actually tell my own employees at onboarding that if if you work in a place where your boss is saying that, you should be worried because it's it's one thing it's one thing to say that to the press. One thing to say that in your marketing materials, but you, you know, if if your employees don't believe that at the end of the day, you're trying to make their job a fiscally responsible decision. If you're effectively telling them you could be making more money elsewhere, and your financial success is not my priority. You should be concerned.

and we think it's really funny that people are tapped, like, money's like, you know, silicon Valley thing is to pretend you don't like money. And, like, you know, you're talking about. Yeah. You know, we're not we're not doing it here for the money, you know, this money money money's, you know, money money's not the real objective. Actually tell my own employees at onboarding that if if you work in a place where your boss is saying that, you should be worried because it's it's one thing it's one thing to say that to the press. One thing to say that in your marketing materials, but you, you know, if if your employees don't believe that at the end of the day, you're trying to make their job a fiscally responsible decision. If you're effectively telling them you could be making more money elsewhere, and your financial success is not my priority. You should be concerned.

05:35

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you kinda did the best of both. Like, for all the kind of ironic people who are, like, we're trying to change the world with this, like, you know, HR onboarding software, you know,

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you kinda did the best of both. Like, for all the kind of ironic people who are, like, we're trying to change the world with this, like, you know, HR onboarding software, you know,

05:45

you actually kinda did,

you actually kinda did,

05:47

and still made a bunch of money doing it. So, you know, it's not like an either or

and still made a bunch of money doing it. So, you know, it's not like an either or

05:52

one hundred percent. I mean, when when I started Oculus, it was not because I thought it would be the thing that would make the most money. There had never been a successful VR company in history, to be clear. And I did it because it was something I was really passionate about. Now that said, one of the things I'm most proud of in my whole career is that everyone who worked at Oculus achieved financial independence

one hundred percent. I mean, when when I started Oculus, it was not because I thought it would be the thing that would make the most money. There had never been a successful VR company in history, to be clear. And I did it because it was something I was really passionate about. Now that said, one of the things I'm most proud of in my whole career is that everyone who worked at Oculus achieved financial independence

06:11

because we were able to build something incredible. And, like, I feel great that everyone who was part of that mission and who supported me early

because we were able to build something incredible. And, like, I feel great that everyone who was part of that mission and who supported me early

06:18

on was able to make a bunch of money, and then a lot of them have gone on to do incredible things. But, you know, oculus was not was not was not done because I thought it was the best way to make money. It's because I thought it really was gonna be the best way to change the world in the long run. Andrew was a little different. I I that one, it wasn't just, oh, this will be fun. I wanna do something really cool. Annroll was, like, I felt like I had to do it or things were things were gonna go really poorly. So more more of a more of a stick than a carrot on that one. How much did you make off the oculus cell?

on was able to make a bunch of money, and then a lot of them have gone on to do incredible things. But, you know, oculus was not was not was not done because I thought it was the best way to make money. It's because I thought it really was gonna be the best way to change the world in the long run. Andrew was a little different. I I that one, it wasn't just, oh, this will be fun. I wanna do something really cool. Annroll was, like, I felt like I had to do it or things were things were gonna go really poorly. So more more of a more of a stick than a carrot on that one. How much did you make off the oculus cell?

06:48

Oh, man. I probably shouldn't say because this is also one of those complex things where, you know, there was the there was the sale. So there's what they believe they called the merger consideration,

Oh, man. I probably shouldn't say because this is also one of those complex things where, you know, there was the there was the sale. So there's what they believe they called the merger consideration,

06:58

form of, you know, portion of the of the of the,

form of, you know, portion of the of the of the,

07:02

compensation.

compensation.

07:03

And then they, you know, you cut unemployment deal where they say we're going to pay you, you know, this much for five years. I can say that. I I was I was locked up on a five year vesting schedule. So typical would be four. Most of our employees were four. I got locked up for five because I was a key guy. And,

And then they, you know, you cut unemployment deal where they say we're going to pay you, you know, this much for five years. I can say that. I I was I was locked up on a five year vesting schedule. So typical would be four. Most of our employees were four. I got locked up for five because I was a key guy. And,

07:19

that that money technically

that that money technically

07:21

is not for the acquisition. It's just -- Yeah. I I had that too.

is not for the acquisition. It's just -- Yeah. I I had that too.

07:26

Yep. So and of and of course, you know, you you can't you can't pretend you can't say they're the same thing or they if they're supposed to be treated differently,

Yep. So and of and of course, you know, you you can't you can't pretend you can't say they're the same thing or they if they're supposed to be treated differently,

07:33

tax wise, compensation And then, of course, there's the bonuses we had. We had an earn out that was a it was a it was a huge earn out. It was hundreds and millions of dollars for the founders of the company. If we could hit certain sales targets, and user,

tax wise, compensation And then, of course, there's the bonuses we had. We had an earn out that was a it was a it was a huge earn out. It was hundreds and millions of dollars for the founders of the company. If we could hit certain sales targets, and user,

07:45

user, like hours hours of time targets. And we actually had four years to hit those targets and we we hit them within

user, like hours hours of time targets. And we actually had four years to hit those targets and we we hit them within

07:53

less than two years. So we actually did. It's kind of funny. We'll be like, oh, man. The acquisition must not be going as well as people expect. It's like, No. We maxed out the top bracket of our earnout, because we're we're we're kicking butt. But,

less than two years. So we actually did. It's kind of funny. We'll be like, oh, man. The acquisition must not be going as well as people expect. It's like, No. We maxed out the top bracket of our earnout, because we're we're we're kicking butt. But,

08:06

anyway, I it it was in the hundreds of millions of dollars. I can tell you that. In the healthy hundreds of millions of dollars. Were were you So a bunch of people who listen to this?

anyway, I it it was in the hundreds of millions of dollars. I can tell you that. In the healthy hundreds of millions of dollars. Were were you So a bunch of people who listen to this?

08:14

Oh, sorry. I'll go real quick. A bunch of people who listen to this are founders and and like, would want to sell their company someday and, both me and Sam, we started this podcast right when we both exited our companies because it's like, alright. Kinda earning out. Well, we can't start another company right now, but like, oh, we can start a podcast. That's that sounds kinda fun. And,

Oh, sorry. I'll go real quick. A bunch of people who listen to this are founders and and like, would want to sell their company someday and, both me and Sam, we started this podcast right when we both exited our companies because it's like, alright. Kinda earning out. Well, we can't start another company right now, but like, oh, we can start a podcast. That's that sounds kinda fun. And,

08:31

and actually, yeah, just yesterday, I just closed on another sale of a company, but these are small scale compared to what you did. Right? Like, congratulations.

and actually, yeah, just yesterday, I just closed on another sale of a company, but these are small scale compared to what you did. Right? Like, congratulations.

08:38

Thank you. But you you sold for, I don't know, two or three billion bucks. How does that happens? Somebody, you know, Zuck comes over to your house and is like, I'll give you three billion dollars for this. Like, how does that how does that even how does that conversation go down?

Thank you. But you you sold for, I don't know, two or three billion bucks. How does that happens? Somebody, you know, Zuck comes over to your house and is like, I'll give you three billion dollars for this. Like, how does that how does that even how does that conversation go down?

08:51

When when when when you're talking about the sort of like the grand slam type of outcomes?

When when when when you're talking about the sort of like the grand slam type of outcomes?

08:56

Well, it's a it's a long story, but, you know, you know, I'd I know I know Sam didn't wanna talk all VR, but No. I can't. The the this shit's interesting to me. Oh, great. And we we do each on one. We won't talk about VR optics and and the metaverse then. But I I guess on on the business side of it, the interesting thing about the acquisition is that we didn't have any of intention of selling initially when we first had our conversation with Facebook. And I think that really was a positive thing, because actually, first time we talked, I think, basically, we were offered a billion dollars to sell.

Well, it's a it's a long story, but, you know, you know, I'd I know I know Sam didn't wanna talk all VR, but No. I can't. The the this shit's interesting to me. Oh, great. And we we do each on one. We won't talk about VR optics and and the metaverse then. But I I guess on on the business side of it, the interesting thing about the acquisition is that we didn't have any of intention of selling initially when we first had our conversation with Facebook. And I think that really was a positive thing, because actually, first time we talked, I think, basically, we were offered a billion dollars to sell.

09:29

And we said, no. We're not interested.

And we said, no. We're not interested.

09:31

We think this company is easily gonna surpass that value think it's not gonna be a problem for us to make more money.

We think this company is easily gonna surpass that value think it's not gonna be a problem for us to make more money.

09:37

And, yeah, we we we're we're happy to work with you guys, but we we don't wanna the way, was that was that easy to say no to a billion dollars? I mean, you started this thing, like, on a Kickstarter dude, like, you know, at some point, were you like, Was it hard to say no, or was it not a not an issue at that point? It wasn't an issue for me. And I think I think a a different people had different opinions. I mean, Look, if you if you look over my career, I've made a lot of similar decisions. Like, when I was starting oculus, when I was deciding whether I was gonna do a Kickstarter or work for someone else. I actually had a job on a job offer on the table from, from Sony to run a playstation VR Lab, you know, out of playstation group. When I turned them down, they actually doubled the offer. And then I had to turn them down again. And a lot of people were wondering how could you have done that? You know, how could you have decided to do your own thing? It was so much higher risk. And I think that a lot of it is is social programming. You know, I I grew up watching media that conditioned me to believe that when you have an opportunity, you have to take it when, you know, when when almost have to follow the narrative. And looking back, I'm not sure I could have done anything else. Like, could I have stayed in school instead of starting oculus once I realized I had this breakthrough in VR technology. I think I could not have possibly done it. There's it it it's almost to the level of free will not existing. I could not have chosen that. Could I have gone and worked for Sony? Looking back, I don't think so. I think I couldn't have made that decision. And I think it's actually the same thing with that billion dollar offer. Like, I almost could not have said yes. You know, like, that that that that first offer, I I like, narratively, it makes no sense. It doesn't align with what I've been trained as what you do when you're, you know, when you're a a free thinking iconoclast. And so I I couldn't have done it. I think what what what happened is a few things changed over over time after that initial offer. You know, we didn't talk to to Facebook for for for a few months after that. And a few things happened. One, it became clear that our competition was not only

And, yeah, we we we're we're happy to work with you guys, but we we don't wanna the way, was that was that easy to say no to a billion dollars? I mean, you started this thing, like, on a Kickstarter dude, like, you know, at some point, were you like, Was it hard to say no, or was it not a not an issue at that point? It wasn't an issue for me. And I think I think a a different people had different opinions. I mean, Look, if you if you look over my career, I've made a lot of similar decisions. Like, when I was starting oculus, when I was deciding whether I was gonna do a Kickstarter or work for someone else. I actually had a job on a job offer on the table from, from Sony to run a playstation VR Lab, you know, out of playstation group. When I turned them down, they actually doubled the offer. And then I had to turn them down again. And a lot of people were wondering how could you have done that? You know, how could you have decided to do your own thing? It was so much higher risk. And I think that a lot of it is is social programming. You know, I I grew up watching media that conditioned me to believe that when you have an opportunity, you have to take it when, you know, when when almost have to follow the narrative. And looking back, I'm not sure I could have done anything else. Like, could I have stayed in school instead of starting oculus once I realized I had this breakthrough in VR technology. I think I could not have possibly done it. There's it it it's almost to the level of free will not existing. I could not have chosen that. Could I have gone and worked for Sony? Looking back, I don't think so. I think I couldn't have made that decision. And I think it's actually the same thing with that billion dollar offer. Like, I almost could not have said yes. You know, like, that that that that first offer, I I like, narratively, it makes no sense. It doesn't align with what I've been trained as what you do when you're, you know, when you're a a free thinking iconoclast. And so I I couldn't have done it. I think what what what happened is a few things changed over over time after that initial offer. You know, we didn't talk to to Facebook for for for a few months after that. And a few things happened. One, it became clear that our competition was not only

11:29

serious,

serious,

11:30

but was going to be putting massive dollars into their success. Something not a lot of people remember,

but was going to be putting massive dollars into their success. Something not a lot of people remember,

11:36

but I certainly do because it was a big deal in my mind. The day that we announced

but I certainly do because it was a big deal in my mind. The day that we announced

11:41

no. The day we fight and it wasn't anyway The day we finalized the Facebook acquisition was the same day that Sony announced PlayStation VR. And we had known that it was coming for a while. We we we had actually even shown each other prototypes and stuff. But it really reinforced. This was a serious thing. We were gonna have some of the biggest games companies in the world, putting hundreds of millions of dollars in a competing with us. And, you know, that that made, I think, our

no. The day we fight and it wasn't anyway The day we finalized the Facebook acquisition was the same day that Sony announced PlayStation VR. And we had known that it was coming for a while. We we we had actually even shown each other prototypes and stuff. But it really reinforced. This was a serious thing. We were gonna have some of the biggest games companies in the world, putting hundreds of millions of dollars in a competing with us. And, you know, that that made, I think, our

12:05

that made the the pitch that Facebook came back with, which is listen. You maybe you could make more money as an independent company. But if you're with us, we're gonna make VR happen much faster. So, you know, yes, you'll you might make more money. But you're going to go much slower than if we were able to artificially

that made the the pitch that Facebook came back with, which is listen. You maybe you could make more money as an independent company. But if you're with us, we're gonna make VR happen much faster. So, you know, yes, you'll you might make more money. But you're going to go much slower than if we were able to artificially

12:21

supercharge your growth far beyond even what you could do with venture capital. And they they were willing to commit billions of dollars a year for a period of a decade or more.

supercharge your growth far beyond even what you could do with venture capital. And they they were willing to commit billions of dollars a year for a period of a decade or more.

12:30

And that's that's a really tough thing to turn down when you really believe in something. And is this, like, literally zuck coming to your house and talking to you about this, or is there, like, an army of lawyers in between you guys that are, like, you know, bankers and and corp dev people? It was a very small number of people. I mean, it was it was I mean, I I think that the the the the lawyers and the accountants are much more likely to be involved in a deal when the deal is contingent on, you know, your your revenue and your multiples and your P and Ls. Like, that that that's where you need to drag those people in to really make a an assessment. This was such a high level bet. It's not like, oh, I think that you have this margin on your headset, and you've sold this many development kits It was so early, and the technology so nascent. The real bet is do you believe in the metaverse? Do you believe that there's going to be a virtual world parallel to our own where you're living and you're working and you're playing And then most importantly, do you believe this is the best team in the world to do it? And I didn't know this at the time, but I found out later that Mark had been going around and talking to various

And that's that's a really tough thing to turn down when you really believe in something. And is this, like, literally zuck coming to your house and talking to you about this, or is there, like, an army of lawyers in between you guys that are, like, you know, bankers and and corp dev people? It was a very small number of people. I mean, it was it was I mean, I I think that the the the the lawyers and the accountants are much more likely to be involved in a deal when the deal is contingent on, you know, your your revenue and your multiples and your P and Ls. Like, that that that's where you need to drag those people in to really make a an assessment. This was such a high level bet. It's not like, oh, I think that you have this margin on your headset, and you've sold this many development kits It was so early, and the technology so nascent. The real bet is do you believe in the metaverse? Do you believe that there's going to be a virtual world parallel to our own where you're living and you're working and you're playing And then most importantly, do you believe this is the best team in the world to do it? And I didn't know this at the time, but I found out later that Mark had been going around and talking to various

13:27

University research labs, government research labs, talking to a, you know, seeing what other companies were doing. And their conclusion was we were way ahead of everyone else. And that if if this was going to happen, this shift to immersive computing,

University research labs, government research labs, talking to a, you know, seeing what other companies were doing. And their conclusion was we were way ahead of everyone else. And that if if this was going to happen, this shift to immersive computing,

13:40

the final computing platform arguably

the final computing platform arguably

13:43

that we were the people in the best position to do it. And that's not something that a lawyer can really give an opinion on. It's not something that an accountant can put a value on. It's it's it's a it's a very high level bet. What was your personal financial situation when you turned down the billion dollar offer? So at the time,

that we were the people in the best position to do it. And that's not something that a lawyer can really give an opinion on. It's not something that an accountant can put a value on. It's it's it's a it's a very high level bet. What was your personal financial situation when you turned down the billion dollar offer? So at the time,

14:00

early early in oculus

early early in oculus

14:01

yeah, I I mean, I started Docuels using my own money. And at that time, I was working a minimum wage job and living in a nineteen foot camper trailer. I was nineteen years old. So for people who aren't familiar story to that degree. I mean, I had almost no money literally had a few hundred dollars in my bank account because I spent

yeah, I I mean, I started Docuels using my own money. And at that time, I was working a minimum wage job and living in a nineteen foot camper trailer. I was nineteen years old. So for people who aren't familiar story to that degree. I mean, I had almost no money literally had a few hundred dollars in my bank account because I spent

14:18

all the money that I made, putting myself through school, and working on virtual reality technology. And I was extraordinarily and I I had a minimum wage job. I was also fixing computers on the side. For a while, I'd been buying broken iPhones,

all the money that I made, putting myself through school, and working on virtual reality technology. And I was extraordinarily and I I had a minimum wage job. I was also fixing computers on the side. For a while, I'd been buying broken iPhones,

14:31

putting fixing them and unlocking them, selling those for spare cash. And so I, you know, I I I burned a lot of money on my on my on my Nnedi Hobby.

putting fixing them and unlocking them, selling those for spare cash. And so I, you know, I I I burned a lot of money on my on my on my Nnedi Hobby.

14:39

And when we started Oculus,

And when we started Oculus,

14:42

We we didn't pay ourselves very much. By the time the acquisition happened, I had given myself a raise. We decided that nobody in the company was going to make over a hundred thousand We called it the hundred k club. So we're we're paying the CEO a hundred thousand dollars.

We we didn't pay ourselves very much. By the time the acquisition happened, I had given myself a raise. We decided that nobody in the company was going to make over a hundred thousand We called it the hundred k club. So we're we're paying the CEO a hundred thousand dollars.

14:55

I was getting paid a hundred thousand dollars. And, to me, that that actually felt in incredible. I was like, wow. Hundred thousand dollars. This is absolutely crazy. I can I can afford anything? You're like, you know, how many cell phone, how many iPhones I'd have to fix? To make a hundred thousand dollars. Heck a lot. Because you were fixing iPhones in, like, scrubbing boats or something I read? Is that what you mean? Yeah. Well, I mean, when I started working on VR stuff, I was I worked for a few years in a boatyard. So, yeah, yeah, scrubbing boats, repainting repainting the the the the the the bottom paint.

I was getting paid a hundred thousand dollars. And, to me, that that actually felt in incredible. I was like, wow. Hundred thousand dollars. This is absolutely crazy. I can I can afford anything? You're like, you know, how many cell phone, how many iPhones I'd have to fix? To make a hundred thousand dollars. Heck a lot. Because you were fixing iPhones in, like, scrubbing boats or something I read? Is that what you mean? Yeah. Well, I mean, when I started working on VR stuff, I was I worked for a few years in a boatyard. So, yeah, yeah, scrubbing boats, repainting repainting the the the the the the bottom paint.

15:25

Sweeping the boatyard, you know, that that that type of stuff.

Sweeping the boatyard, you know, that that that type of stuff.

15:29

So so so to me, the money was not was not a huge motivating

So so so to me, the money was not was not a huge motivating

15:33

factor. Also, because maybe maybe too optimistically, I believe Doculus was going to be worth tens of billions or hundreds of billions of dollars. So it really wasn't the the money know I I know this is what contrary to what I said before, but it wasn't the money that was motivating me to make the sale. The it it was the pitch. Hey. We're gonna get you billions of dollars right now.

factor. Also, because maybe maybe too optimistically, I believe Doculus was going to be worth tens of billions or hundreds of billions of dollars. So it really wasn't the the money know I I know this is what contrary to what I said before, but it wasn't the money that was motivating me to make the sale. The it it was the pitch. Hey. We're gonna get you billions of dollars right now.

15:54

Like, not not the not the compensation for the for the for the acquisition, but we're gonna give you your your organization billions of dollars a year to go out and make virtual reality actually happen. And that's what you're going to need to compete with Google, to compete with Sony, to compete with Microsoft, all of which have seen what you're doing bought in, like, they've drunk your kool aid, but they're gonna try to kill you over it. That that was kind of the situation we were in. And Facebook was one of the very few companies that had a strong incentive

Like, not not the not the compensation for the for the for the acquisition, but we're gonna give you your your organization billions of dollars a year to go out and make virtual reality actually happen. And that's what you're going to need to compete with Google, to compete with Sony, to compete with Microsoft, all of which have seen what you're doing bought in, like, they've drunk your kool aid, but they're gonna try to kill you over it. That that was kind of the situation we were in. And Facebook was one of the very few companies that had a strong incentive

16:22

to make virtual reality and immersive computing writ large to come about as quickly as possible because unlike Google, unlike Microsoft, they did not benefit from the status quo in the hardware space. So if if we kept using mobile phones and

to make virtual reality and immersive computing writ large to come about as quickly as possible because unlike Google, unlike Microsoft, they did not benefit from the status quo in the hardware space. So if if we kept using mobile phones and

16:36

normal computers for, you know, next twenty, thirty years. Google and Microsoft are gonna do just fine. Like, they they're they're already the winners in that paradigm.

normal computers for, you know, next twenty, thirty years. Google and Microsoft are gonna do just fine. Like, they they're they're already the winners in that paradigm.

16:45

If you can shake everything up and force a reset with immersive computing, AR, VR, MR, whatever you wanna call it.

If you can shake everything up and force a reset with immersive computing, AR, VR, MR, whatever you wanna call it.

16:52

It could be that Microsoft is one of the top players and that could be that Apple and Google are are some of the top players, but it's unlikely that all of them are gonna remain the dominant players. And that's an opening for a company like Facebook to come in. And even if they're not first place, forcing the reset puts them in second or third place instead of being totally subservient

It could be that Microsoft is one of the top players and that could be that Apple and Google are are some of the top players, but it's unlikely that all of them are gonna remain the dominant players. And that's an opening for a company like Facebook to come in. And even if they're not first place, forcing the reset puts them in second or third place instead of being totally subservient

17:12

to the operating system,

to the operating system,

17:14

vendors and to the hardware vendors. So it it was one of those things where there were other companies that were interested

vendors and to the hardware vendors. So it it was one of those things where there were other companies that were interested

17:19

None of them actually had a strong incentive to put billions of dollars into VR on an ongoing basis. I mean, you can see Google killed their VR program. First, they killed their PCVR team. Then they killed their mobile VR team. Microsoft is winding down their internal efforts. I mean, it's a it it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a tough business, and I'm not convinced that oculus would still be around if we hadn't had those resources.

None of them actually had a strong incentive to put billions of dollars into VR on an ongoing basis. I mean, you can see Google killed their VR program. First, they killed their PCVR team. Then they killed their mobile VR team. Microsoft is winding down their internal efforts. I mean, it's a it it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a tough business, and I'm not convinced that oculus would still be around if we hadn't had those resources.

17:42

I'm gonna move on from, like, asking you these money questions, but I wanna ask one more because I do think it's fascinating because you went from, like, maybe not having a lot to having a lot. And you're also, like, not fall -- Yeah. -- which I like.

I'm gonna move on from, like, asking you these money questions, but I wanna ask one more because I do think it's fascinating because you went from, like, maybe not having a lot to having a lot. And you're also, like, not fall -- Yeah. -- which I like.

17:55

When I sold my business, I put everything into bonds,

When I sold my business, I put everything into bonds,

17:58

and just Vanguard total index funds. It just did like a normal eighty twenty split and then eventually some real estate and then HubSpot stock and, just normal, like, basic stuff What did you do with your money? And what have you because I know you bought, like, a a marina, I think, or you tried to buy it? I don't know if it went through. But, like, what what does, like, someone like you do with that amount of liquidity.

and just Vanguard total index funds. It just did like a normal eighty twenty split and then eventually some real estate and then HubSpot stock and, just normal, like, basic stuff What did you do with your money? And what have you because I know you bought, like, a a marina, I think, or you tried to buy it? I don't know if it went through. But, like, what what does, like, someone like you do with that amount of liquidity.

18:19

So most of it, I did what you're talking about. I generally don't believe in trying to beat the market

So most of it, I did what you're talking about. I generally don't believe in trying to beat the market

18:24

through market

through market

18:25

market transactions. I mean, it's one thing to build. Like, I think you build wealth by building companies. That's where you should be focusing your effort, not trying to be smarter than all the finance guys.

market transactions. I mean, it's one thing to build. Like, I think you build wealth by building companies. That's where you should be focusing your effort, not trying to be smarter than all the finance guys.

18:35

Who are sitting around and using every tool at their disposal

Who are sitting around and using every tool at their disposal

18:38

to try and game the financial market. So, actually, yeah, Van Vanguard funds, like Vanguard five hundred total index funds,

to try and game the financial market. So, actually, yeah, Van Vanguard funds, like Vanguard five hundred total index funds,

18:45

My my grandpa taught me a lot about investing and about how you shouldn't try to beat the market, probably the the the my investment philosophies informed mostly by John Bogle's Little Black Book on Investing. Like, look, you know, keep your fees low, keep your costs low, and just go with the market. And, you know, if if the market goes so poorly that I become poor, then United States has bigger problems than, than than than the market.

My my grandpa taught me a lot about investing and about how you shouldn't try to beat the market, probably the the the my investment philosophies informed mostly by John Bogle's Little Black Book on Investing. Like, look, you know, keep your fees low, keep your costs low, and just go with the market. And, you know, if if the market goes so poorly that I become poor, then United States has bigger problems than, than than than the market.

19:08

So that was that was that was most what I did. I bought the Marina, not as a financial investment. It was actually It was one of the only marinas. It so this is getting a little into the weeds on something probably very few people care about, but just so you know,

So that was that was that was most what I did. I bought the Marina, not as a financial investment. It was actually It was one of the only marinas. It so this is getting a little into the weeds on something probably very few people care about, but just so you know,

19:20

in California, almost all marinas

in California, almost all marinas

19:22

the water is owned by the state or by the feds. And then they do long term leases, like thirty or forty years, to operators that are allowed to operate those marinas. And they might own, let's say, the parking lot, the operator, but they do not own the water, they do not own the docks. It's a long term lease, and they redo that over. There's only a small handful of marinas in the entire state of California

the water is owned by the state or by the feds. And then they do long term leases, like thirty or forty years, to operators that are allowed to operate those marinas. And they might own, let's say, the parking lot, the operator, but they do not own the water, they do not own the docks. It's a long term lease, and they redo that over. There's only a small handful of marinas in the entire state of California

19:45

where the underlying

where the underlying

19:47

land under the water, and the water itself is deeded to a private title. And the marina that I bought was one of those. And

land under the water, and the water itself is deeded to a private title. And the marina that I bought was one of those. And

19:55

you know, without getting into without getting into, you know, my my my whole cease setting delusion, I think that you're gonna end up needing,

you know, without getting into without getting into, you know, my my my whole cease setting delusion, I think that you're gonna end up needing,

20:03

if if you wanna have transport fairies that are operating from land out to international waters, you do not wanna be in a position where the place you're doing that from. Is totally dependent on state government bureaucrats,

if if you wanna have transport fairies that are operating from land out to international waters, you do not wanna be in a position where the place you're doing that from. Is totally dependent on state government bureaucrats,

20:15

choosing to renew your lease on a particular on a particular marina. So That was actually that was actually a a purchase that'll it'll it'll it'll pay off someday.

choosing to renew your lease on a particular on a particular marina. So That was actually that was actually a a purchase that'll it'll it'll it'll pay off someday.

20:24

You'll see. You'll all see.

You'll see. You'll all see.

20:26

See, I bought my house just like, I like the the walk in closet was nice. And I was like, oh, that's good enough reason for me. I didn't have to, like, you know, go into international water

See, I bought my house just like, I like the the walk in closet was nice. And I was like, oh, that's good enough reason for me. I didn't have to, like, you know, go into international water

20:34

to make it Well, in that case, I I did buy I mean, I I did I did a few things. Like, as soon as I had money, I immediately started learning to fly helicopter for real, because I'd always wanted to be a helicopter pilot ever since being a little kid. So, like, it was, like, it was, like, two weeks after the wire completed. I was I was flying helicopters. So That was really cool.

to make it Well, in that case, I I did buy I mean, I I did I did a few things. Like, as soon as I had money, I immediately started learning to fly helicopter for real, because I'd always wanted to be a helicopter pilot ever since being a little kid. So, like, it was, like, it was, like, two weeks after the wire completed. I was I was flying helicopters. So That was really cool.

20:52

I bought a sixty nine Mustang convertible. That was really cool. And,

I bought a sixty nine Mustang convertible. That was really cool. And,

20:57

I bought a first generation Tesla model s. That was cool. And then I bought a house for my parents. You know, it's like the the the it's like the basketball player contract move. You know, you you you get the money. You buy the you buy the house for your for your parents. And then I bought a house for myself that was close to my grandpa, actually.

I bought a first generation Tesla model s. That was cool. And then I bought a house for my parents. You know, it's like the the the it's like the basketball player contract move. You know, you you you get the money. You buy the you buy the house for your for your parents. And then I bought a house for myself that was close to my grandpa, actually.

21:14

And, unfortunately,

And, unfortunately,

21:15

we then ended up having to move up to silicon Valley because of the acquisition, and then he passed away while I was up there. So one one of my one of my regrets, but I'm still in that house.

we then ended up having to move up to silicon Valley because of the acquisition, and then he passed away while I was up there. So one one of my one of my regrets, but I'm still in that house.

21:25

Wow. Okay. That's amazing. And, one other thing I had seen was that you I don't know if this is even a real thing or it's like some

Wow. Okay. That's amazing. And, one other thing I had seen was that you I don't know if this is even a real thing or it's like some

21:33

Twitter fake, you know, fake photo or whatever. Did you buy Bitcoin in twenty thirteen?

Twitter fake, you know, fake photo or whatever. Did you buy Bitcoin in twenty thirteen?

21:38

No. No. I bought Bitcoin much earlier than that. I was a very no. In twenty twenty thirteen is when I was on I I was in the Forbes thirty under thirty, and they asked everyone

No. No. I bought Bitcoin much earlier than that. I was a very no. In twenty twenty thirteen is when I was on I I was in the Forbes thirty under thirty, and they asked everyone

21:48

on it for a quote for the print edition, and it was the the theme was, what is your advice to other young founders? And my quote was buy more Bitcoin.

on it for a quote for the print edition, and it was the the theme was, what is your advice to other young founders? And my quote was buy more Bitcoin.

21:58

And but I I'm I've actually been involved in Bitcoin since before there were any exchanges. I, like, I I was a true o g on the Bitcoin Talk dot org forums. There were no exchanges. You could only do direct transactions for goods. I actually sold a banner ad on my game console modification forum. It was a one week banner ad on this forum with almost no traffic, and I sold it for four hundred Bitcoin.

And but I I'm I've actually been involved in Bitcoin since before there were any exchanges. I, like, I I was a true o g on the Bitcoin Talk dot org forums. There were no exchanges. You could only do direct transactions for goods. I actually sold a banner ad on my game console modification forum. It was a one week banner ad on this forum with almost no traffic, and I sold it for four hundred Bitcoin.

22:19

And then I ended up, I ended up buying someone's,

And then I ended up, I ended up buying someone's,

22:23

Samsung Samsung Galaxy vibrant, which was the T Mobile variant of the first Galaxy phone.

Samsung Samsung Galaxy vibrant, which was the T Mobile variant of the first Galaxy phone.

22:29

For eight hundred Bitcoin, I believe,

For eight hundred Bitcoin, I believe,

22:32

which at the time was, you know, well well under a dollar per Bitcoin. Right. So I've I've actually been in sixteen million very early days. Sixteen. Oh my god. How do you how so, like, alright. You you we had biology. You know biology on the pod. And, like, he was one of these guys where he would, like, give an analogy. He's like, oh, you know, Bitcoin is kinda like the Battle of Tames. And I'm like, bro, I you can't

which at the time was, you know, well well under a dollar per Bitcoin. Right. So I've I've actually been in sixteen million very early days. Sixteen. Oh my god. How do you how so, like, alright. You you we had biology. You know biology on the pod. And, like, he was one of these guys where he would, like, give an analogy. He's like, oh, you know, Bitcoin is kinda like the Battle of Tames. And I'm like, bro, I you can't

22:54

I needed an analogy for your analogy. Like, I can't tell you about the battle of Kings in World War two. Like, I can't have that conversation with you. And you're a little bit like that where you're talking about, like,

I needed an analogy for your analogy. Like, I can't tell you about the battle of Kings in World War two. Like, I can't have that conversation with you. And you're a little bit like that where you're talking about, like,

23:04

you just, like, threw in a few lines, like, oh, this gaming forum I have. I was like, well, I could've go down that path, but and then you're talking about like this boat marina thing. I'm like, that that's a whole conversation. Like, how on earth do you discovered And then I'm sure you have strong opinion. You you just have a a very and then now, obviously, you're doing government stuff and you've done, and you have no bunch about politics, whatever.

you just, like, threw in a few lines, like, oh, this gaming forum I have. I was like, well, I could've go down that path, but and then you're talking about like this boat marina thing. I'm like, that that's a whole conversation. Like, how on earth do you discovered And then I'm sure you have strong opinion. You you just have a a very and then now, obviously, you're doing government stuff and you've done, and you have no bunch about politics, whatever.

23:26

How

How

23:27

are you becoming so well versed and also so opinionated

are you becoming so well versed and also so opinionated

23:32

on such a broad set of topics?

on such a broad set of topics?

23:35

Because you have to. Most of the time, like, the the best things that I've done that I have done in my career have not been going super, super deep on one vertical and then finding the really, really hard gains that are at the end of a long fight that everyone's made. Like, I an example here would be with just, like, optics technology. Most people are fighting way at the end of the spectrum where they're trying to, like, oh, we're using new cutting edge materials that increase the ability to control light more precisely by two percent, and you we're we're trying to figure out the physics of how we can manufacture these polymers. Most of my best ideas have not come from that. They've been from knowing things in totally different fields that have nothing to do with the field. Or at least people don't think they do. And then pulling ideas from those fields and applying them in a new way. Like, the the the really key thing that made the oculus rift work is just one example. Rather than focusing on trying to make these

Because you have to. Most of the time, like, the the best things that I've done that I have done in my career have not been going super, super deep on one vertical and then finding the really, really hard gains that are at the end of a long fight that everyone's made. Like, I an example here would be with just, like, optics technology. Most people are fighting way at the end of the spectrum where they're trying to, like, oh, we're using new cutting edge materials that increase the ability to control light more precisely by two percent, and you we're we're trying to figure out the physics of how we can manufacture these polymers. Most of my best ideas have not come from that. They've been from knowing things in totally different fields that have nothing to do with the field. Or at least people don't think they do. And then pulling ideas from those fields and applying them in a new way. Like, the the the really key thing that made the oculus rift work is just one example. Rather than focusing on trying to make these

24:28

optical stacks that cost thousands of dollars and weighed a bunch, and that was really what was making these headsets.

optical stacks that cost thousands of dollars and weighed a bunch, and that was really what was making these headsets.

24:34

Weigh many pounds and cost tens of thousands of dollars. It was the high end optical stack that was able to project images on your retina with minimal distortion, but you needed a bunch of lenses. They're all very, very expensive, very high precision. What I did is figure out that you could just

Weigh many pounds and cost tens of thousands of dollars. It was the high end optical stack that was able to project images on your retina with minimal distortion, but you needed a bunch of lenses. They're all very, very expensive, very high precision. What I did is figure out that you could just

24:48

render a distorted image. Basically, render your image, distort it on the graphics card,

render a distorted image. Basically, render your image, distort it on the graphics card,

24:54

in the inverse way that the lens distorted it. And then, basically, you would render an image. It looks terrible on the screen. But after viewing it through the lens that I had, which was optimized for high field of view, low weight, low cost, but not optimized to have low distortion, low chromatic aberration, or geometric, aberration,

in the inverse way that the lens distorted it. And then, basically, you would render an image. It looks terrible on the screen. But after viewing it through the lens that I had, which was optimized for high field of view, low weight, low cost, but not optimized to have low distortion, low chromatic aberration, or geometric, aberration,

25:11

it would come out looking looking perfect. And, like, that that's something where an optical engineer, someone who's working on just optics would not would not think of that. You know, that's very much like a

it would come out looking looking perfect. And, like, that that's something where an optical engineer, someone who's working on just optics would not would not think of that. You know, that's very much like a

25:21

a a software idea, but the software people are also not necessarily thinking about how they could obsoles

a a software idea, but the software people are also not necessarily thinking about how they could obsoles

25:27

expensive, expensive pieces of optics. And, of course, there are people who do that do that. I think that some of the best entrepreneurs are people who have understanding that is sufficient,

expensive, expensive pieces of optics. And, of course, there are people who do that do that. I think that some of the best entrepreneurs are people who have understanding that is sufficient,

25:37

in enough areas to pull from one area and solve the biggest problems of another. So I I mean, I I I make it a priority. You asked how do I do it? You make it a priority to know a little about a lot.

in enough areas to pull from one area and solve the biggest problems of another. So I I mean, I I I make it a priority. You asked how do I do it? You make it a priority to know a little about a lot.

25:48

So

So

25:50

two questions. One, just go back to the Bitcoin thing for a second. Sure. How did you get into, like, why were you on the Bitcoin Talk forums, or why did you see it even before you know, almost anybody.

two questions. One, just go back to the Bitcoin thing for a second. Sure. How did you get into, like, why were you on the Bitcoin Talk forums, or why did you see it even before you know, almost anybody.

26:00

So what were you doing there and why did it catch your eye? Yep. And then, you know, today, ten years later, there's a whole bunch of people that are disillusioned by it. They say, oh, it's all all this time's gone by ten years didn't work out. Other people are more bullish than ever. You know, where do you stand now? So what caught your eye? And then where do you stand now? So, I mean, I I think I got into Bitcoin. It would have been mid mid to late two thousand ten.

So what were you doing there and why did it catch your eye? Yep. And then, you know, today, ten years later, there's a whole bunch of people that are disillusioned by it. They say, oh, it's all all this time's gone by ten years didn't work out. Other people are more bullish than ever. You know, where do you stand now? So what caught your eye? And then where do you stand now? So, I mean, I I think I got into Bitcoin. It would have been mid mid to late two thousand ten.

26:22

And and I I I I was really fascinated because I I mean, Look, I'm a guy who was into virtual reality in the metaverse. This is just adjacent to that. It's another super cool, you know, cyberpunk

And and I I I I was really fascinated because I I mean, Look, I'm a guy who was into virtual reality in the metaverse. This is just adjacent to that. It's another super cool, you know, cyberpunk

26:34

concept. The idea of you know,

concept. The idea of you know,

26:37

untraceable internet currency that is based on only the consensus of all of the cyber punks who are using it. Cryptographically

untraceable internet currency that is based on only the consensus of all of the cyber punks who are using it. Cryptographically

26:44

verified and secured with no nation state controlling it or issuing it or diluting it or manipulating, like, Like, what what a cool thing when you're, when you're an anti authority teenager who who who loves who loves cyberpunk science fiction.

verified and secured with no nation state controlling it or issuing it or diluting it or manipulating, like, Like, what what a cool thing when you're, when you're an anti authority teenager who who who loves who loves cyberpunk science fiction.

26:58

And so that that it was, like, I bought into the the very original cool vision, not the, oh, this is gonna be huge for everybody one. But, like, this is, this is This is cyberpunk incarnate. I have to be a part of this.

And so that that it was, like, I bought into the the very original cool vision, not the, oh, this is gonna be huge for everybody one. But, like, this is, this is This is cyberpunk incarnate. I have to be a part of this.

27:11

And when I started,

And when I started,

27:13

like, my my initial thinking was not that it was a good store of value. That was That's actually been, I think, the most contentious

like, my my initial thinking was not that it was a good store of value. That was That's actually been, I think, the most contentious

27:19

thing about crypto is after it started skyrock, I I didn't buy it because I was speculating. Nobody was even thinking about that back then. Like, it's it's crazy to me to watch all these new Crypto Kids get in, and it seems like it's all about

thing about crypto is after it started skyrock, I I didn't buy it because I was speculating. Nobody was even thinking about that back then. Like, it's it's crazy to me to watch all these new Crypto Kids get in, and it seems like it's all about

27:31

just having having coins, pumping the value, dumping them. It's really just you know, these this financial markets play that I've never believed in. I've because I always believe in, you know, investing in the whole market.

just having having coins, pumping the value, dumping them. It's really just you know, these this financial markets play that I've never believed in. I've because I always believe in, you know, investing in the whole market.

27:42

But to me, it was always valued as a as a means of moving wealth around. It's not as a store for years or decades. It's a way that you can move wealth around,

But to me, it was always valued as a as a means of moving wealth around. It's not as a store for years or decades. It's a way that you can move wealth around,

27:51

without any without being beholden to any any centralized authority or centralized power. And, I think today, like, even for all the issues Bitcoin has and people, you know, putting it down because of it crashing. Well, first of all, every time there's a Bitcoin crash, it's like, oh, no. It's crashed to only ten x what it was two years ago. Every single time. Every crash is like that.

without any without being beholden to any any centralized authority or centralized power. And, I think today, like, even for all the issues Bitcoin has and people, you know, putting it down because of it crashing. Well, first of all, every time there's a Bitcoin crash, it's like, oh, no. It's crashed to only ten x what it was two years ago. Every single time. Every crash is like that.

28:12

But more importantly, it's still a good way to move value around.

But more importantly, it's still a good way to move value around.

28:16

And,

And,

28:17

that said, my prediction in twenty thirteen was Bitcoin will go to about a hundred thousand dollars and then stabilize. I'm sticking with it. I I I think I think it'll get there. I'm I'm not I'm not sure that it in particular has the has the appropriate utility to reach a higher store of value.

that said, my prediction in twenty thirteen was Bitcoin will go to about a hundred thousand dollars and then stabilize. I'm sticking with it. I I I think I think it'll get there. I'm I'm not I'm not sure that it in particular has the has the appropriate utility to reach a higher store of value.

28:33

And wow. Okay. Amazing. And then did you Oh, by the way, I have and I have to throw out there. One of those guys who lost a bunch of coins in the Mount Gocksack. Oh, man, I got goxed good.

And wow. Okay. Amazing. And then did you Oh, by the way, I have and I have to throw out there. One of those guys who lost a bunch of coins in the Mount Gocksack. Oh, man, I got goxed good.

28:43

And it was it was one of those things where there was no, like, looking back, everyone's like, oh my god. I can't believe that, you know, you would have and I had most of my coins in in my own wallet, but I had a significant amount on on Gocks because people were transferring coins to my Gox to my Gox account. And, now everyone's like, oh my god. Of course, you would never keep your coins in an exchange.

And it was it was one of those things where there was no, like, looking back, everyone's like, oh my god. I can't believe that, you know, you would have and I had most of my coins in in my own wallet, but I had a significant amount on on Gocks because people were transferring coins to my Gox to my Gox account. And, now everyone's like, oh my god. Of course, you would never keep your coins in an exchange.

29:05

But, like, I was sixteen years old, and, like, I, you know, there was there was no there was no, like,

But, like, I was sixteen years old, and, like, I, you know, there was there was no there was no, like,

29:11

idiot's guide to Bitcoin back then. It was it was the type of thing you only used if you were a a crazy, a crazy internet nutter. And so you've mentioned forums, and I'm a big forums

idiot's guide to Bitcoin back then. It was it was the type of thing you only used if you were a a crazy, a crazy internet nutter. And so you've mentioned forums, and I'm a big forums

29:20

Like, I still I remember, you know, BBS. I wasn't, like, before be whatever was before BBS, that's not me, but I've been on forums, and I love forums.

Like, I still I remember, you know, BBS. I wasn't, like, before be whatever was before BBS, that's not me, but I've been on forums, and I love forums.

29:30

And you talked about -- Amen. -- the Bitcoin Talk forums. I went and read a bunch of your early posts on the what was the name of the, like, odd retro? No. No. No. The the headset one. The headset three d. Yeah. Exactly. There you go. Your old post there. I went and, like, stalked him just to be like because I to see the origin. I'm like a It's fun. Like, what are the, like, archaeologists for, like, the internet? I like to go find the original shit. And so, you know, I saw you post and you're like, Hey, I'm trying to build this thing. I'm I'm thinking about doing this.

And you talked about -- Amen. -- the Bitcoin Talk forums. I went and read a bunch of your early posts on the what was the name of the, like, odd retro? No. No. No. The the headset one. The headset three d. Yeah. Exactly. There you go. Your old post there. I went and, like, stalked him just to be like because I to see the origin. I'm like a It's fun. Like, what are the, like, archaeologists for, like, the internet? I like to go find the original shit. And so, you know, I saw you post and you're like, Hey, I'm trying to build this thing. I'm I'm thinking about doing this.

29:57

You did a bunch of, like, kind of really cool crowdsourced stuff. I think you even like, ask, Reddit, like, you know, should I buy that? Should we buy Vybe or something like that? You did a bunch of cool stuff on forums.

You did a bunch of, like, kind of really cool crowdsourced stuff. I think you even like, ask, Reddit, like, you know, should I buy that? Should we buy Vybe or something like that? You did a bunch of cool stuff on forums.

30:06

And I thought about that. And some of the, like, I when I learned poker, I learned it through forums.

And I thought about that. And some of the, like, I when I learned poker, I learned it through forums.

30:11

Yep. If you think about today, like, if who's the sick the sixteen year old version of you today, What forms do you think they're hanging out in? What's the thing? Because when you were doing this, this is fifteen years ago. Like, VR is still

Yep. If you think about today, like, if who's the sick the sixteen year old version of you today, What forms do you think they're hanging out in? What's the thing? Because when you were doing this, this is fifteen years ago. Like, VR is still

30:24

early, and you were Early, early, early. Same thing with Bitcoin. You were early, early, early. And so what do you think are the interesting forums today that people are hanging out in that you think will play out over the next decade or so. And and also what are what are what are some of your favorite pockets of the web and and forums that you're hanging out in I mean, much to my Chagrin, I, like, I love forums too. I think they are more or less the pinnacle of asynchronous

early, and you were Early, early, early. Same thing with Bitcoin. You were early, early, early. And so what do you think are the interesting forums today that people are hanging out in that you think will play out over the next decade or so. And and also what are what are what are some of your favorite pockets of the web and and forums that you're hanging out in I mean, much to my Chagrin, I, like, I love forums too. I think they are more or less the pinnacle of asynchronous

30:49

communication.

communication.

30:50

Like, if you are doing collaborative pro all of the incentives are correct. Like, so so I, like, I I ran a forum, the mod retro forum. So it was a forum for people who modified vintage game consoles, in particular with a focus on turning them into handheld self contained units. So cutting apart Nintendo sixty fours and super Nintendo's and Play stations, and then replacing, like, the power electronics with modern power electronics, running them off of the latest lithium battery technology, although it was NICAD back when back when I started started, you know, working on portables,

Like, if you are doing collaborative pro all of the incentives are correct. Like, so so I, like, I I ran a forum, the mod retro forum. So it was a forum for people who modified vintage game consoles, in particular with a focus on turning them into handheld self contained units. So cutting apart Nintendo sixty fours and super Nintendo's and Play stations, and then replacing, like, the power electronics with modern power electronics, running them off of the latest lithium battery technology, although it was NICAD back when back when I started started, you know, working on portables,

31:19

you know, putting in LCD screens that were designed for portable DVD players and the like and building these self contained units.

you know, putting in LCD screens that were designed for portable DVD players and the like and building these self contained units.

31:25

And, it forums are interesting because your your currency

And, it forums are interesting because your your currency

31:30

is is attention, but you can only get attention by getting people to come in and, you know, respond and engage with you. And so there's a strong incentive to update people on what you're doing to to to write really interesting things and to, you know, get people regularly coming back and engaging with your stuff. I mean, that that's the dopamine high. Right? It's other people care about what I'm doing. Today, it's been so

is is attention, but you can only get attention by getting people to come in and, you know, respond and engage with you. And so there's a strong incentive to update people on what you're doing to to to write really interesting things and to, you know, get people regularly coming back and engaging with your stuff. I mean, that that's the dopamine high. Right? It's other people care about what I'm doing. Today, it's been so

31:51

algorith

algorith

31:52

you know, algorithmically

you know, algorithmically

31:53

driven that you don't have the same incentives in terms of long term sustained engagement

driven that you don't have the same incentives in terms of long term sustained engagement

31:59

and, you know, collaborating

and, you know, collaborating

32:01

with people. There's a lot more incentive to do things on your own. Do one big push in a form that will cause ordinary people who are not necessarily technically competent to, you know, watch it for at least three minutes so that it's seen as you watch it long enough. And I, like, I think the pockets, which is what you asked, like, there's great pockets on YouTube. There's great pockets on Reddit. There's actually a lot of private Facebook groups. So, like, One highlight, like, I'm a member of a of a night vision group where people build their own night vision, night vision goggles.

with people. There's a lot more incentive to do things on your own. Do one big push in a form that will cause ordinary people who are not necessarily technically competent to, you know, watch it for at least three minutes so that it's seen as you watch it long enough. And I, like, I think the pockets, which is what you asked, like, there's great pockets on YouTube. There's great pockets on Reddit. There's actually a lot of private Facebook groups. So, like, One highlight, like, I'm a member of a of a night vision group where people build their own night vision, night vision goggles.

32:31

And, it's got all all a couple thousand people. But it's it's a private group and very, very much not virally driven.

And, it's got all all a couple thousand people. But it's it's a private group and very, very much not virally driven.

32:38

You know, it's not like the TikTok tickTok techno heads. It's not like the YouTube techno heads.

You know, it's not like the TikTok tickTok techno heads. It's not like the YouTube techno heads.

32:43

But, man, I I really missed forums. You know, Mod retro we had a core group of a few thousand active members that were that were doing stuff in the hay day, and we were doing a few a few million page views a month,

But, man, I I really missed forums. You know, Mod retro we had a core group of a few thousand active members that were that were doing stuff in the hay day, and we were doing a few a few million page views a month,

32:54

and you would you never see those ratios these days, you know, of of of, I mean, of of engagers to to to watchers.

and you would you never see those ratios these days, you know, of of of, I mean, of of engagers to to to watchers.

33:01

One thing that,

One thing that,

33:03

that, I thought was actually really interesting. I don't know. Wait. I've I've I've interrupt. I've to interrupt. One last thing I forgot.

that, I thought was actually really interesting. I don't know. Wait. I've I've I've interrupt. I've to interrupt. One last thing I forgot.

33:10

Actually, a huge fraction of the people that I hired for oculus in the early days were volunteer moderators on the mod retro forums. Like, you you people always, you know, they hire their network. Right? They hire the people that they know that they can trust and that they know our competent. And that was my network when I was a teenager. It was other it was other loser gamer teenagers on the internet. And so we like, that that like, we some of our lead electrical people, our lead hardware people, our lead mechatronics people, were all people who had been moderators

Actually, a huge fraction of the people that I hired for oculus in the early days were volunteer moderators on the mod retro forums. Like, you you people always, you know, they hire their network. Right? They hire the people that they know that they can trust and that they know our competent. And that was my network when I was a teenager. It was other it was other loser gamer teenagers on the internet. And so we like, that that like, we some of our lead electrical people, our lead hardware people, our lead mechatronics people, were all people who had been moderators

33:40

on Mod retro.

on Mod retro.

33:41

In fact, the first person I hired for oculus was one of the other moderators, and I I I actually, sent him a message, said, hey, what are you doing, what are you doing? What are you doing this fall? And he said, oh, I'm I'm I'm starting starting college. I said, no. You're not. You're gonna come work for me. And I literally I, like, I I told him that on a Friday, and I literally drove out in my minivan

In fact, the first person I hired for oculus was one of the other moderators, and I I I actually, sent him a message, said, hey, what are you doing, what are you doing? What are you doing this fall? And he said, oh, I'm I'm I'm starting starting college. I said, no. You're not. You're gonna come work for me. And I literally I, like, I I told him that on a Friday, and I literally drove out in my minivan

34:02

to pick him up from his mom's house on Monday. And he had all his stuff in, like, four boxes. And I picked him up, we got in my van, and we drove to the condemned motel that I was living in. I mean, it was it was it was it was wild. I mean, the and that was that was my network. So it's it's always funny when people are like, oh, you know, your network is your net worth. You know, look, you know, we're we're you got all the Stanford kids, you got the Ivy kids, And we were just a bunch of internet losers, and we did better than any of them. You're like, I'm hiring HMD alumni. They're like, oh, is that Harvard, medical? No. No. Head mounted display forum alumni.

to pick him up from his mom's house on Monday. And he had all his stuff in, like, four boxes. And I picked him up, we got in my van, and we drove to the condemned motel that I was living in. I mean, it was it was it was it was wild. I mean, the and that was that was my network. So it's it's always funny when people are like, oh, you know, your network is your net worth. You know, look, you know, we're we're you got all the Stanford kids, you got the Ivy kids, And we were just a bunch of internet losers, and we did better than any of them. You're like, I'm hiring HMD alumni. They're like, oh, is that Harvard, medical? No. No. Head mounted display forum alumni.

34:38

Yep.

Yep.

34:39

That was it was it was actually, the the the guy that I was hiring, his his his name's Chris Dicus, And he had never built a head mounted display, but he was he was very accomplished on the What a what a loser? Verbalizing

That was it was it was actually, the the the guy that I was hiring, his his his name's Chris Dicus, And he had never built a head mounted display, but he was he was very accomplished on the What a what a loser? Verbalizing

34:51

scene. Yeah. Not a handheld vintage game console. I I knew he was very competent. I knew exact like,

scene. Yeah. Not a handheld vintage game console. I I knew he was very competent. I knew exact like,

34:57

you you talk about a job interview where you meet someone for, you know, whatever they're, you know, maybe an hour or something. But I had been seeing this guy's work published on the forum over the course of years. And so I knew he had I I knew he had skills, and I knew he had work ethic. That's exactly We me and Sean have hired so many people on Twitter, and I tell people all the time, like, I wanna get a job. I'm like, man, if you just, like, you need to post your thought people understand your texture and your taste and your character. Like, there's significantly

you you talk about a job interview where you meet someone for, you know, whatever they're, you know, maybe an hour or something. But I had been seeing this guy's work published on the forum over the course of years. And so I knew he had I I knew he had skills, and I knew he had work ethic. That's exactly We me and Sean have hired so many people on Twitter, and I tell people all the time, like, I wanna get a job. I'm like, man, if you just, like, you need to post your thought people understand your texture and your taste and your character. Like, there's significantly

35:25

better doing it there and then just DMming someone they're just gonna click your profile, like, oh, this person's tweeting all this, like, interesting insight that aligns with everything. Well, and and and that's harder to fake too. If you if you have somebody who has a history building things for themselves,

better doing it there and then just DMming someone they're just gonna click your profile, like, oh, this person's tweeting all this, like, interesting insight that aligns with everything. Well, and and and that's harder to fake too. If you if you have somebody who has a history building things for themselves,

35:38

doing things because they want to, not because they're getting paid to. Like, you can't fake that the way that you can fake an interview. It's easy. Like, oh, I'm passionate about y and z. Well, show me your years of work that you've done for no money showing that you really are. And I mean, we we we still hire a lot of people like that at Andrew. Like, we we we we have benefits that are intended to,

doing things because they want to, not because they're getting paid to. Like, you can't fake that the way that you can fake an interview. It's easy. Like, oh, I'm passionate about y and z. Well, show me your years of work that you've done for no money showing that you really are. And I mean, we we we still hire a lot of people like that at Andrew. Like, we we we we have benefits that are intended to,

35:59

lure people like that. Like, one of our benefits we have is that we will buy anyone in the company, any tool they want. Or their personal projects as well as work projects. And that's the type of thing where people who don't have personal projects who just, you know, they show up, to their to their wage machine and they clock in and they clock out, they're not attracted by that, but the types of people who wanna create for the sake of creation,

lure people like that. Like, one of our benefits we have is that we will buy anyone in the company, any tool they want. Or their personal projects as well as work projects. And that's the type of thing where people who don't have personal projects who just, you know, they show up, to their to their wage machine and they clock in and they clock out, they're not attracted by that, but the types of people who wanna create for the sake of creation,

36:21

those to those people, that's, like, it's a it's a golden ticket. On that note, we did the same thing. My co founder, he's a lot like you, like, fifteen at age fifteen, started working at a dot com during the on boom. It was like, you know, I had a job and was like, what the hell is going on? And always was just doing his own thing. And so he used to buy

those to those people, that's, like, it's a it's a golden ticket. On that note, we did the same thing. My co founder, he's a lot like you, like, fifteen at age fifteen, started working at a dot com during the on boom. It was like, you know, I had a job and was like, what the hell is going on? And always was just doing his own thing. And so he used to buy

36:38

like, three d printers and robotics. And we're building, like, social apps. It's like, we didn't need any of this stuff. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, why are we doing this? He's like, because a, I want it. Like, I want to come to a space. And, like, when I'm done with work, I'm just gonna go downstairs to their lab, and I'm gonna build, like, a drone or I'm gonna, like, take this raspberry pie and, like, shove it over here and figure something else out. And he's like, also that that's also how we'll get great people. Like, I wanna work with other hackers like that who like to tinker on this stuff. And he's like, He's, like, he's, like, he had had an exit. So he's, like, you know, doing very well. The last company went public. And so he was, like, you know, when I was, like, sixteen, eighteen, twenty one, like, I just couldn't afford the, like, the thousand dollar thing that you would need to have. He's like, I just got lucky that the dude down the street would let me come over and play with his thing. And that's, like, that was, like, a a life changer of a moment. He's like, so I just wanna do that for people. Like, I'll just make it free. Anybody can come in and anybody could use this stuff And, he was totally right. Even though, like, our CFO was like, hey, we can't justify this. He's like, don't worry. I'll pay for it all out of pocket. And it was, like, and I know I I know that struggle. You know, we're we're, like, and it doesn't even have to be a thousand dollars. I mean, I remember there were times where the thing I needed, it would cost, like, fifty dollars And I was just, like, it was it was inconceivable that I could afford it. I mean, like, honestly, oculus owes more to the iPhone than anything else. I mean, like,

like, three d printers and robotics. And we're building, like, social apps. It's like, we didn't need any of this stuff. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, why are we doing this? He's like, because a, I want it. Like, I want to come to a space. And, like, when I'm done with work, I'm just gonna go downstairs to their lab, and I'm gonna build, like, a drone or I'm gonna, like, take this raspberry pie and, like, shove it over here and figure something else out. And he's like, also that that's also how we'll get great people. Like, I wanna work with other hackers like that who like to tinker on this stuff. And he's like, He's, like, he's, like, he had had an exit. So he's, like, you know, doing very well. The last company went public. And so he was, like, you know, when I was, like, sixteen, eighteen, twenty one, like, I just couldn't afford the, like, the thousand dollar thing that you would need to have. He's like, I just got lucky that the dude down the street would let me come over and play with his thing. And that's, like, that was, like, a a life changer of a moment. He's like, so I just wanna do that for people. Like, I'll just make it free. Anybody can come in and anybody could use this stuff And, he was totally right. Even though, like, our CFO was like, hey, we can't justify this. He's like, don't worry. I'll pay for it all out of pocket. And it was, like, and I know I I know that struggle. You know, we're we're, like, and it doesn't even have to be a thousand dollars. I mean, I remember there were times where the thing I needed, it would cost, like, fifty dollars And I was just, like, it was it was inconceivable that I could afford it. I mean, like, honestly, oculus owes more to the iPhone than anything else. I mean, like,

37:56

If the iPhone wouldn't have existed, there wouldn't have been broken iPhones for me to buy, unlock, repair, and sell on eBay. Like, and I because I made tens of thousands of dollars as a teenager,

If the iPhone wouldn't have existed, there wouldn't have been broken iPhones for me to buy, unlock, repair, and sell on eBay. Like, and I because I made tens of thousands of dollars as a teenager,

38:07

on that on that side hustle.

on that on that side hustle.

38:09

Like, if if that had not happened, then oculus probably wouldn't exist today. That's amazing. I wanna,

Like, if if that had not happened, then oculus probably wouldn't exist today. That's amazing. I wanna,

38:15

ask you a bit about Andrew, but before before we get to that, what ideas were you pursuing or

ask you a bit about Andrew, but before before we get to that, what ideas were you pursuing or

38:21

I bet you if you're like us, I imagine you have a list of, like, things that you're contemplating. What was what was on that list?

I bet you if you're like us, I imagine you have a list of, like, things that you're contemplating. What was what was on that list?

38:28

Prior to starting Andrew. I know there was, like, a prison thing and but what what else, like, were you interested in? Well, what was the prison thing? Sorry. Start with that one because that that one sounds interesting. Also the the there were two things I was seriously considering and then one thing that I'm I'm I'm gonna do someday. So c setting is off the table right now. It's too long term. There were two short term things that I was looking at,

Prior to starting Andrew. I know there was, like, a prison thing and but what what else, like, were you interested in? Well, what was the prison thing? Sorry. Start with that one because that that one sounds interesting. Also the the there were two things I was seriously considering and then one thing that I'm I'm I'm gonna do someday. So c setting is off the table right now. It's too long term. There were two short term things that I was looking at,

38:47

aside from Andrew. So the three choices were fixed national security, solve obesity,

aside from Andrew. So the three choices were fixed national security, solve obesity,

38:53

or solve

or solve

38:55

incarceration.

incarceration.

38:57

And the the, you know, I I tried to think about, you know, what are the ways that I would tackle these issues? And the way I solve defense was I wanted to know the defense products company that uplends the incentives that typically exist in the military industrial complex. But the the prison one was that I wanted to basically take out the incentives

And the the, you know, I I tried to think about, you know, what are the ways that I would tackle these issues? And the way I solve defense was I wanted to know the defense products company that uplends the incentives that typically exist in the military industrial complex. But the the prison one was that I wanted to basically take out the incentives

39:13

of the private prison complex that exist today. Right now, private prison companies are are growing. There's more and more people being housed in privately operated risks, they're publicly traded. And those companies have a strong incentive

of the private prison complex that exist today. Right now, private prison companies are are growing. There's more and more people being housed in privately operated risks, they're publicly traded. And those companies have a strong incentive

39:26

to lobby for and and perpetuate

to lobby for and and perpetuate

39:29

laws that incarcerate people for the longest period of time for the least serious crime. In other words, they don't want murderers and terrorists. They want They want non violent drug offenders who will be in prison for a long time. And when they get out of prison, they want them to come back and be a repeat customer. They want good good tenants They want good air occupancy, good tenants.

laws that incarcerate people for the longest period of time for the least serious crime. In other words, they don't want murderers and terrorists. They want They want non violent drug offenders who will be in prison for a long time. And when they get out of prison, they want them to come back and be a repeat customer. They want good good tenants They want good air occupancy, good tenants.

39:51

And and the incentives they've set up with the government where the government prepays for these beds the government basically says, well, we've already paid for the bed. So if they're not full, then we're not locking up enough people. You know, it's a it's a very bad set of incentives. Some idea was that I could start a private prison company.

And and the incentives they've set up with the government where the government prepays for these beds the government basically says, well, we've already paid for the bed. So if they're not full, then we're not locking up enough people. You know, it's a it's a very bad set of incentives. Some idea was that I could start a private prison company.

40:06

They would run as a nonprofit

They would run as a nonprofit

40:08

organization.

organization.

40:09

And we would use the tax advantages of that to out compete private prison

And we would use the tax advantages of that to out compete private prison

40:14

companies And more importantly, we would have a business model that would incent everybody towards the right set of incentives. So what I wanted to do was go to the government and say, listen. I'll lock up your prisoners.

companies And more importantly, we would have a business model that would incent everybody towards the right set of incentives. So what I wanted to do was go to the government and say, listen. I'll lock up your prisoners.

40:25

But you don't get to pay us upfront. In fact, you can't pay us upfront. You have to pay us after the person serves their term, and then stays out of prison for five years. Then you're going to pay me.

But you don't get to pay us upfront. In fact, you can't pay us upfront. You have to pay us after the person serves their term, and then stays out of prison for five years. Then you're going to pay me.

40:36

And the idea is that now all of a sudden, I'm motivated and, you know, my my whole organization is motivated to get people through as quickly as possible,

And the idea is that now all of a sudden, I'm motivated and, you know, my my whole organization is motivated to get people through as quickly as possible,

40:44

release them as quickly as possible, and then have them stay out of prison and not return to crime. And that I mean, that would have been that would have been a game changer, and it would have been a very attractive business

release them as quickly as possible, and then have them stay out of prison and not return to crime. And that I mean, that would have been that would have been a game changer, and it would have been a very attractive business

40:54

to these governments that are always, you know, looking to delay their expenditures.

to these governments that are always, you know, looking to delay their expenditures.

40:58

The the biggest problem that I ran into as I looked into this is it wasn't a technological problem. It was a lobbying and marketing and government affairs problem, and it wasn't at a federal level where you can basically convince a handful of people and then achieve success. It it was going to be this, like, this low locale by locale thing where you have a lot of people who depend on prisons for jobs. You have a lot of politicians who are very involved. And it was And and also the deals are not recomputed very often. This isn't like enterprise software where people are always on the lookout for a way to get an edge or move to a new provider that could reduce their costs or risk. It's like, oh, yeah, we we're gonna recompete this deal in thirty five years. And so it's it would've been this thing where I I just couldn't debate an impact fast enough. And so I've been involved with other people who are making impacts in other ways. Okay. So that was one. Well, you couldn't just have, like, some Silicon Valley guy wearing, like, tight jeans brown shoes, like every other salesperson sitting down, like, hey. So we'd like to have a conversation about your prisoners. We'd like to have your business. Like, you know, give me some of your guys. Unfortunately, not. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, not. And and the thing is the people who make the decisions,

The the biggest problem that I ran into as I looked into this is it wasn't a technological problem. It was a lobbying and marketing and government affairs problem, and it wasn't at a federal level where you can basically convince a handful of people and then achieve success. It it was going to be this, like, this low locale by locale thing where you have a lot of people who depend on prisons for jobs. You have a lot of politicians who are very involved. And it was And and also the deals are not recomputed very often. This isn't like enterprise software where people are always on the lookout for a way to get an edge or move to a new provider that could reduce their costs or risk. It's like, oh, yeah, we we're gonna recompete this deal in thirty five years. And so it's it would've been this thing where I I just couldn't debate an impact fast enough. And so I've been involved with other people who are making impacts in other ways. Okay. So that was one. Well, you couldn't just have, like, some Silicon Valley guy wearing, like, tight jeans brown shoes, like every other salesperson sitting down, like, hey. So we'd like to have a conversation about your prisoners. We'd like to have your business. Like, you know, give me some of your guys. Unfortunately, not. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, not. And and the thing is the people who make the decisions,

42:04

would not have benefited from us succeeding. So in business, like, when you're and this is a big we can get into this with Andrew too. One of the biggest problems with selling to the government versus,

would not have benefited from us succeeding. So in business, like, when you're and this is a big we can get into this with Andrew too. One of the biggest problems with selling to the government versus,

42:14

businesses or private private individuals,

businesses or private private individuals,

42:16

with with with private individuals and businesses, you just have to convince them that, it'll be that'll be a, you know, that that that'll be a good thing for them and then they'll buy them. The people who are in charge of purchasing for government, they often don't benefit from saving money or reducing their manpower or any of this. In many cases, the guy in charge of making the buying decision, his political

with with with private individuals and businesses, you just have to convince them that, it'll be that'll be a, you know, that that that'll be a good thing for them and then they'll buy them. The people who are in charge of purchasing for government, they often don't benefit from saving money or reducing their manpower or any of this. In many cases, the guy in charge of making the buying decision, his political

42:37

power and earning power are directly tied to his ability to keep cost high and to keep manpower up and to not allow anything to displace that. So that was actually the big problem. I realized that you it's it's nice to think you can solve any problem

power and earning power are directly tied to his ability to keep cost high and to keep manpower up and to not allow anything to displace that. So that was actually the big problem. I realized that you it's it's nice to think you can solve any problem

42:52

with with new ideas through disruption, but some things are kind of self reinforcing, very hard to fix.

with with new ideas through disruption, but some things are kind of self reinforcing, very hard to fix.

42:58

The The other thing I was looking at is obesity. You know, obesity is,

The The other thing I was looking at is obesity. You know, obesity is,

43:03

is one of if not the leading preventable cause of death in the United States,

is one of if not the leading preventable cause of death in the United States,

43:07

either there's so many there's so many other health problems that are the result of of obesity.

either there's so many there's so many other health problems that are the result of of obesity.

43:13

And, some people say that we need to make exercise more popular. Some people say that we need to stop normalizing obesity. Some people say we need medical treatment for you or we, you know, we need to make eat healthy eating better. I took a pretty cynical view of it. I said, no, Obesity is not going away unless you let American people

And, some people say that we need to make exercise more popular. Some people say that we need to stop normalizing obesity. Some people say we need medical treatment for you or we, you know, we need to make eat healthy eating better. I took a pretty cynical view of it. I said, no, Obesity is not going away unless you let American people

43:31

eat whatever they want, whenever they want, as much as they want with no lifestyle changes, no exercise,

eat whatever they want, whenever they want, as much as they want with no lifestyle changes, no exercise,

43:36

and absolutely

and absolutely

43:37

no

no

43:38

effort on their parts whatsoever.

effort on their parts whatsoever.

43:40

And so within that constraint, what could you do to to solve this issue? And the the the the result that the the the idea came on was, long chain hydrocarbon

And so within that constraint, what could you do to to solve this issue? And the the the the result that the the the idea came on was, long chain hydrocarbon

43:50

based synthetic food. So In other words, oil based foods.

based synthetic food. So In other words, oil based foods.

43:54

You you guys are familiar with Impossible Burger Beyond Burger. Have you had them? Yeah. Yeah.

You you guys are familiar with Impossible Burger Beyond Burger. Have you had them? Yeah. Yeah.

43:58

So, I mean, it was probably better than the worst beef burger you've ever had. Right? It was it was at least at that level. It's more it's better than the worst one you've ever had. Yeah. It it was a whatever. I'll eat this. Yeah. Whatever you eat this, but certainly not up to the level of the best beef burger you've ever had.

So, I mean, it was probably better than the worst beef burger you've ever had. Right? It was it was at least at that level. It's more it's better than the worst one you've ever had. Yeah. It it was a whatever. I'll eat this. Yeah. Whatever you eat this, but certainly not up to the level of the best beef burger you've ever had.

44:15

No.

No.

44:16

And and so one of the one of the interesting

And and so one of the one of the interesting

44:19

this is where I was drawing from outside, you know, in an outside world. All these people trying to make fake food They're all trying to build fake food out of food. And I said, well, wait. Let's think of this from first principles. If I'm a materials engineer, and I'm trying to solve a set of problems,

this is where I was drawing from outside, you know, in an outside world. All these people trying to make fake food They're all trying to build fake food out of food. And I said, well, wait. Let's think of this from first principles. If I'm a materials engineer, and I'm trying to solve a set of problems,

44:33

that a fake burger manufacturer is trying to solve, you know, how it feels in your mouth, how it comes apart in your mouth, how it how it sears, how it cooks, how it changes texture, when it's cooked, If I was a chemical or material engineer trying to build

that a fake burger manufacturer is trying to solve, you know, how it feels in your mouth, how it comes apart in your mouth, how it how it sears, how it cooks, how it changes texture, when it's cooked, If I was a chemical or material engineer trying to build

44:47

let's say it's not food, just a, you know, a a pace, a substance with a certain set of of parameters, what am I gonna use? Is it is it beans? Is it chickpeas? Is it corn? No. Of course not. I'm gonna use oil because man is a master of oil. We can make it in anything,

let's say it's not food, just a, you know, a a pace, a substance with a certain set of of parameters, what am I gonna use? Is it is it beans? Is it chickpeas? Is it corn? No. Of course not. I'm gonna use oil because man is a master of oil. We can make it in anything,

45:05

waxes,

waxes,

45:06

gels, solids,

gels, solids,

45:08

anything in between, rubbers, pastes. We can do anything with oil. We can make it into truly anything with almost any material properties that we want. And so I said, well, let's leverage that. Let's leverage everything we know about making inert hydrocarbons

anything in between, rubbers, pastes. We can do anything with oil. We can make it into truly anything with almost any material properties that we want. And so I said, well, let's leverage that. Let's leverage everything we know about making inert hydrocarbons

45:23

that are nontoxic

that are nontoxic

45:24

and use that to make fake food for people that tastes and feels like real food, but has zero caloric value that cannot be absorbed by your body. Just goes right through you just like fiber. And this is like a It's not that crazy. Talk a belt. A diet coke for a a yeah.

and use that to make fake food for people that tastes and feels like real food, but has zero caloric value that cannot be absorbed by your body. Just goes right through you just like fiber. And this is like a It's not that crazy. Talk a belt. A diet coke for a a yeah.

45:41

It's a

It's a

45:42

yeah. That exists, dude. It's called the White Castle.

yeah. That exists, dude. It's called the White Castle.

45:45

But here let me yeah. You're just saying, like, the diet coke cheeseburger?

But here let me yeah. You're just saying, like, the diet coke cheeseburger?

45:49

Yes. A diet a diet coke cheeseburger. The diet coke cheese. The diet you know, the the the diet coke dairy products. And So I actually started making prototypes of this, and I was messing around with a a frying foods and mineral oil,

Yes. A diet a diet coke cheeseburger. The diet coke cheese. The diet you know, the the the diet coke dairy products. And So I actually started making prototypes of this, and I was messing around with a a frying foods and mineral oil,

46:02

with with with high flash points because mineral oil, also no calories.

with with with high flash points because mineral oil, also no calories.

46:06

I made some paraffin based cheese. So it was basically like paraffin wax based fake cheese product that you could still make grilled cheese sandwiches with, and it tasted great, but at almost no calories.

I made some paraffin based cheese. So it was basically like paraffin wax based fake cheese product that you could still make grilled cheese sandwiches with, and it tasted great, but at almost no calories.

46:19

It was there are a few other wild things that came with. I I also built a device that injected,

It was there are a few other wild things that came with. I I also built a device that injected,

46:25

soda syrup threw a stream onto your tongue directly as carbonated water flowed over it because it turns out you can only detect

soda syrup threw a stream onto your tongue directly as carbonated water flowed over it because it turns out you can only detect

46:33

What it it's a weird perceptual thing. People think of, optical illusions as as, you know, the the main type of illusion that's out there, but there's also physical illusions. Like, if you If you put put putting in your mouth, your body assumes that the full mass of the pudding is comprised of whatever is touching your tongue. But if you can create

What it it's a weird perceptual thing. People think of, optical illusions as as, you know, the the main type of illusion that's out there, but there's also physical illusions. Like, if you If you put put putting in your mouth, your body assumes that the full mass of the pudding is comprised of whatever is touching your tongue. But if you can create

46:50

physically structured foods where the part that's touching your tongue is different than the bulk of the rest of the material. Your body still thinks that the entire bulk of it is whatever's touching your tongue. Anyway, what I I went down to trouble for a while. What does your house look like?

physically structured foods where the part that's touching your tongue is different than the bulk of the rest of the material. Your body still thinks that the entire bulk of it is whatever's touching your tongue. Anyway, what I I went down to trouble for a while. What does your house look like?

47:06

Well, I mean, it it it's it's a little more boring now.

Well, I mean, it it it's it's a little more boring now.

47:10

But at the time,

But at the time,

47:11

when when I was acquired by Facebook, I moved up to the Bay Area, and we had about ten people living in a thirteen thousand square foot home that was built in the thirties on six acres. And so we turned the dining room into a machine shop. We turned,

when when I was acquired by Facebook, I moved up to the Bay Area, and we had about ten people living in a thirteen thousand square foot home that was built in the thirties on six acres. And so we turned the dining room into a machine shop. We turned,

47:25

we we turned the there there was like a, like, a ballroom for dancing. And we turned that into an assembly area and and and welding welding room. I mean, and we made a soft goods room in in a little sunny area.

we we turned the there there was like a, like, a ballroom for dancing. And we turned that into an assembly area and and and welding welding room. I mean, and we made a soft goods room in in a little sunny area.

47:38

As someone does. What what is a soft it was real. I don't even know what that means. What are soft goods?

As someone does. What what is a soft it was real. I don't even know what that means. What are soft goods?

47:43

Oh, so, like, so, like,

Oh, so, like, so, like,

47:47

I mean, like, the the traditional example that when people have, like, a soft goods engineer would be, like, like tennis shoes,

I mean, like, the the traditional example that when people have, like, a soft goods engineer would be, like, like tennis shoes,

47:53

bras,

bras,

47:55

you know, things that are incorporating

you know, things that are incorporating

47:56

fabrics and also play or think of, like, like, a tennis, a tennis racket is is is is an example of soft good engineering where you've got you know, the handle and the shock absorption, all that. But, like, in our case, it was for head mounted display stuff. So, like, head mounted display straps, the the fabric associated with it, we also were, you know, we're we're also cosplayers. So we were also building our building our anime costumes there. So a lot of soft good stuff. You you

fabrics and also play or think of, like, like, a tennis, a tennis racket is is is is an example of soft good engineering where you've got you know, the handle and the shock absorption, all that. But, like, in our case, it was for head mounted display stuff. So, like, head mounted display straps, the the fabric associated with it, we also were, you know, we're we're also cosplayers. So we were also building our building our anime costumes there. So a lot of soft good stuff. You you

48:20

the more you talk the more I realize you, you do the one thing that we celebrate the most on this podcast because they're like, people are like, I don't get it. Like, you and Sam, you do a certain style of entrepreneurship.

the more you talk the more I realize you, you do the one thing that we celebrate the most on this podcast because they're like, people are like, I don't get it. Like, you and Sam, you do a certain style of entrepreneurship.

48:30

Right? Like, for example, I optimize for just I want it to be me and one other dude. I don't want any employees. I don't wanna go to an office. And I just want max leverage. And I'm not trying to be a billionaire. I don't wanna raise money. I wanna own the whole thing and just do it my way on whatever projects are fun. And,

Right? Like, for example, I optimize for just I want it to be me and one other dude. I don't want any employees. I don't wanna go to an office. And I just want max leverage. And I'm not trying to be a billionaire. I don't wanna raise money. I wanna own the whole thing and just do it my way on whatever projects are fun. And,

48:44

but then sometimes we'll celebrate, like, the you and Elon Musk of the world that are going huge. And sometimes we celebrate this dude who's making this Chrome extension and he makes twenty k a month lives in, you know, Bali and he's having fun. And so people don't get it. They're like, what do you risk? Like, which one do you admire? Like, I get it. Tech Crunch admires this thing. And VCs admire this thing, but you guys seem to be across the board. And we're like, we like people that just define the wind define winning on their terms and then, like, actualize it. So, like, you have in a house with thirteen other people that does that has, like, you know, an assembly room and a soft goods room and whatever, it seems like you're living your best life in that state, maybe a hundred percent.

but then sometimes we'll celebrate, like, the you and Elon Musk of the world that are going huge. And sometimes we celebrate this dude who's making this Chrome extension and he makes twenty k a month lives in, you know, Bali and he's having fun. And so people don't get it. They're like, what do you risk? Like, which one do you admire? Like, I get it. Tech Crunch admires this thing. And VCs admire this thing, but you guys seem to be across the board. And we're like, we like people that just define the wind define winning on their terms and then, like, actualize it. So, like, you have in a house with thirteen other people that does that has, like, you know, an assembly room and a soft goods room and whatever, it seems like you're living your best life in that state, maybe a hundred percent.

49:23

And what? And I mean, it's it's it's it's the the weird thing about what I get to do now, like, these these all sound, you know, like, like, like, fun things, but I'm still getting to do that. And, like, Andrew, we have all kinds of stuff like that going on. Actually, the the the tough thing is the coolest things that we're doing here, I can't even necessarily talk about because the the most successful projects that are doing the cool going in the coolest directions are the ones that that that we have to keep kind of, on wraps. Oh, I have to say on on petroleum food just in case anyone's wondering why I didn't do that.

And what? And I mean, it's it's it's it's the the weird thing about what I get to do now, like, these these all sound, you know, like, like, like, fun things, but I'm still getting to do that. And, like, Andrew, we have all kinds of stuff like that going on. Actually, the the the tough thing is the coolest things that we're doing here, I can't even necessarily talk about because the the most successful projects that are doing the cool going in the coolest directions are the ones that that that we have to keep kind of, on wraps. Oh, I have to say on on petroleum food just in case anyone's wondering why I didn't do that.

49:51

One, I thought National Security would would be a better use of my time. And that was because I realized, tech was the national security was a technological problem. In addition to being a lobbying and marketing problem and sales problem,

One, I thought National Security would would be a better use of my time. And that was because I realized, tech was the national security was a technological problem. In addition to being a lobbying and marketing problem and sales problem,

50:04

the the problem with petroleum foods is that it was not sustainable

the the problem with petroleum foods is that it was not sustainable

50:07

if using new oil as a feedstock.

if using new oil as a feedstock.

50:10

It would just it would consume too much. And the good news is you can recycle

It would just it would consume too much. And the good news is you can recycle

50:15

hydrocarbons.

hydrocarbons.

50:16

But then, yeah, I mean, if you I don't know if you can see where this is going, but it means you're gonna literally be, like, centrifuging

But then, yeah, I mean, if you I don't know if you can see where this is going, but it means you're gonna literally be, like, centrifuging

50:22

oil out of the sewer system and then reusing it to construct new food. And I realized they had you have you seen all the, you know, media coverage with pinks, pink slime at McDonald's? And that's I I I saw it going, though. Right? It looks kinda gross. Yeah. I'm at I'm at do you think people wanna buy food that's literally remanufactured

oil out of the sewer system and then reusing it to construct new food. And I realized they had you have you seen all the, you know, media coverage with pinks, pink slime at McDonald's? And that's I I I saw it going, though. Right? It looks kinda gross. Yeah. I'm at I'm at do you think people wanna buy food that's literally remanufactured

50:40

from sewage?

from sewage?

50:41

You know, that that that was kind of the main problem. I said, you know what? I'm I'm I'm pretty good at marketing and sales. I am not good enough to sell sewer food to people. Yeah. You you sound I mean, I need to figure that out. Sound like you're a bad guy in Batman if you're like, yeah, he's going through the sewers and recycling it, turning it into food. And it's it's it's like it and it's almost too good of a story. Right? Like, Like, I I under sometimes I think the media is unfair, but it's like, how could you expect them to not, you know, sensationalize

You know, that that that was kind of the main problem. I said, you know what? I'm I'm I'm pretty good at marketing and sales. I am not good enough to sell sewer food to people. Yeah. You you sound I mean, I need to figure that out. Sound like you're a bad guy in Batman if you're like, yeah, he's going through the sewers and recycling it, turning it into food. And it's it's it's like it and it's almost too good of a story. Right? Like, Like, I I under sometimes I think the media is unfair, but it's like, how could you expect them to not, you know, sensationalize

51:09

literally a guy who's who's selling reprocessed

literally a guy who's who's selling reprocessed

51:12

sewage as food. Like, it it's like they have to cover it in a sensational way, and I can't even blame them for it. And I decide I would rather work in an area where technological

sewage as food. Like, it it's like they have to cover it in a sensational way, and I can't even blame them for it. And I decide I would rather work in an area where technological

51:21

improvement

improvement

51:23

would be the main way that you would compete. We didn't need to you know, do crazy marketing. You just had to be competent

would be the main way that you would compete. We didn't need to you know, do crazy marketing. You just had to be competent

51:29

and be better than all of the other players, which was

and be better than all of the other players, which was

51:32

not necessarily that high of a bar.

not necessarily that high of a bar.

51:36

I can't find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

I can't find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

51:39

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data.

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data.

51:43

Every application.

Every application.

51:44

Every team can stay aligned. No out of sync spreadsheets or dueling databases. HubSpot,

Every team can stay aligned. No out of sync spreadsheets or dueling databases. HubSpot,

51:49

grow better.

grow better.

51:51

Do you, you talked about the media for a second? And I when I was doing research, I was like, the

Do you, you talked about the media for a second? And I when I was doing research, I was like, the

51:56

you know, there's this great Silicon Valley post that's called, like, the hands of time of social media or of, of media in Silicon Valley. It's, like, it it starts at noon and it's, like, you're born, a, you know, nobody's ever heard of you. Then at one, you're, like, emerging.

you know, there's this great Silicon Valley post that's called, like, the hands of time of social media or of, of media in Silicon Valley. It's, like, it it starts at noon and it's, like, you're born, a, you know, nobody's ever heard of you. Then at one, you're, like, emerging.

52:11

At three, you're, like, the star. Everybody loves you. And it, like, goes and then it cycle was all the way back to midnight, and it's like, you're evil,

At three, you're, like, the star. Everybody loves you. And it, like, goes and then it cycle was all the way back to midnight, and it's like, you're evil,

52:18

you're ruining society and you, like, destroy democracy and whatever else. And this happens with every hot company and every hot founder, whatever. And when I was looking at your media coverage to do research,

you're ruining society and you, like, destroy democracy and whatever else. And this happens with every hot company and every hot founder, whatever. And when I was looking at your media coverage to do research,

52:29

it's all like This is the boy wonder. He's nineteen years old. He's making virtual reality real. He's doing this out of his garage in his house or whatever. Yep. And then it turns into, like, This guy is, like, you know, the Magga Super evil guy. He's getting fired by Facebook. And then it's, like, the defense stuff. So you've seen kind of both sides of the media machine.

it's all like This is the boy wonder. He's nineteen years old. He's making virtual reality real. He's doing this out of his garage in his house or whatever. Yep. And then it turns into, like, This guy is, like, you know, the Magga Super evil guy. He's getting fired by Facebook. And then it's, like, the defense stuff. So you've seen kind of both sides of the media machine.

52:49

Do you think you kinda jaded? Like, where do you trust the media today? And, like, how do you think about, you know, the media? Well, there's an interesting

Do you think you kinda jaded? Like, where do you trust the media today? And, like, how do you think about, you know, the media? Well, there's an interesting

52:56

quote that people often misuse from the Nolan batman movies.

quote that people often misuse from the Nolan batman movies.

53:03

You either die a hero or live see yourself live long enough to become the villain. And a lot of people misunderstand that. They think that it means you start out as a hero and then eventually descend into

You either die a hero or live see yourself live long enough to become the villain. And a lot of people misunderstand that. They think that it means you start out as a hero and then eventually descend into

53:14

into being, you know, a bad guy, and they look at Harvey dent they that they they think that's the moral, but that's not what was what what Harvey dent was saying. Harvey dent had actually always been a kind of crooked power seeking political type. What what what he was saying is that he had always been the same person fighting for the same ideals. And that he just lived long enough to see the world change around him that so that people started saying that what he was was a villain. You know, he didn't say that you become the villain. You literally to to see

into being, you know, a bad guy, and they look at Harvey dent they that they they think that's the moral, but that's not what was what what Harvey dent was saying. Harvey dent had actually always been a kind of crooked power seeking political type. What what what he was saying is that he had always been the same person fighting for the same ideals. And that he just lived long enough to see the world change around him that so that people started saying that what he was was a villain. You know, he didn't say that you become the villain. You literally to to see

53:47

yourself become the villain in the eyes of everyone else. And I I I feel like I've definitely been through been through that, been through that a little bit. I mean, it's worth noting I'm not inclined to dislike the media naturally. A lot of people assume that that must be the case. I I don't know if you know this. I was a journalism major at Cal state Long Beach. I was actually the online editor of the of the school paper, the daily forty niner.

yourself become the villain in the eyes of everyone else. And I I I feel like I've definitely been through been through that, been through that a little bit. I mean, it's worth noting I'm not inclined to dislike the media naturally. A lot of people assume that that must be the case. I I don't know if you know this. I was a journalism major at Cal state Long Beach. I was actually the online editor of the of the school paper, the daily forty niner.

54:09

So I I, by no means, like, I there was a time where I thought I was going to go into a career in tech journalism.

So I I, by no means, like, I there was a time where I thought I was going to go into a career in tech journalism.

54:16

And so I I never really had had any issues with it,

And so I I never really had had any issues with it,

54:20

as a, as, you know, I thought it was a very, a very honorable thing to do, you know, to go out and and be the guy who dig dig digs and gets the truth and lets people know what's going on that they otherwise would not have the ability or the time to suss out themselves.

as a, as, you know, I thought it was a very, a very honorable thing to do, you know, to go out and and be the guy who dig dig digs and gets the truth and lets people know what's going on that they otherwise would not have the ability or the time to suss out themselves.

54:34

And then, unfortunately, I've had quite a few experiences with the media. It's like, do I trust the media? It's like, well, I mean, I've had, like, literally dozens of major outlets post

And then, unfortunately, I've had quite a few experiences with the media. It's like, do I trust the media? It's like, well, I mean, I've had, like, literally dozens of major outlets post

54:43

literally fabricated

literally fabricated

54:45

quotes from me. Liter you have literally, like, things that never happened

quotes from me. Liter you have literally, like, things that never happened

54:51

they said, they all we did all these terrible things that just never even happened, and then refused to correct them for years on end. So it's one of those people, like, oh, Palmer, why do you attack the media? It's like, I don't know. Like, there's not any real way to to get to get around this. I mean, like, and we're not talking about tiny outlets. Like, the New York Times

they said, they all we did all these terrible things that just never even happened, and then refused to correct them for years on end. So it's one of those people, like, oh, Palmer, why do you attack the media? It's like, I don't know. Like, there's not any real way to to get to get around this. I mean, like, and we're not talking about tiny outlets. Like, the New York Times

55:07

hosted a quote for me that I literally never said. And I I told them, like, hey, you you said that I said this. I I never said that. They said, well, it's it's it's it's more or less what you said. We don't think the meeting is different. And I was, like, Yeah. But you're you're you're ethics guide. I know I know what it is. I was taught the New York Times style guide when I was in journalism school. It doesn't it doesn't say you get to quote me and paraphrase me and you think that it is it doesn't mean anything different. And then, of course, everyone requotes their fake quote.

hosted a quote for me that I literally never said. And I I told them, like, hey, you you said that I said this. I I never said that. They said, well, it's it's it's it's more or less what you said. We don't think the meeting is different. And I was, like, Yeah. But you're you're you're ethics guide. I know I know what it is. I was taught the New York Times style guide when I was in journalism school. It doesn't it doesn't say you get to quote me and paraphrase me and you think that it is it doesn't mean anything different. And then, of course, everyone requotes their fake quote.

55:33

You're like, I don't think a quote means what you think it means.

You're like, I don't think a quote means what you think it means.

55:37

You know, you're like those those like, you know, those little signs in the paper that say it's a quote that that means something different than what than what you guys are saying. Well, I explained to them. I said I said your quote for me is literally missing six of the words that I said, but you have it in quotes with a period, and I I never said that. And it was actually and it well, there was no period because it was part of a longer run on argument I was making. And that that that did not even have a period there. And they're like, oh, well, we don't think it really changes the meaning.

You know, you're like those those like, you know, those little signs in the paper that say it's a quote that that means something different than what than what you guys are saying. Well, I explained to them. I said I said your quote for me is literally missing six of the words that I said, but you have it in quotes with a period, and I I never said that. And it was actually and it well, there was no period because it was part of a longer run on argument I was making. And that that that did not even have a period there. And they're like, oh, well, we don't think it really changes the meaning.

56:03

So just I I yeah. Without belaboring the point,

So just I I yeah. Without belaboring the point,

56:06

you know, I think you you can't you can't trust the media to

you know, I think you you can't you can't trust the media to

56:10

to you can't trust the media to do

to you can't trust the media to do

56:13

the right thing. And if you do, you're probably gonna get burned at some point. It worked for me for a while, and until it didn't

the right thing. And if you do, you're probably gonna get burned at some point. It worked for me for a while, and until it didn't

56:21

What does,

What does,

56:22

what does Andrew do and what made you realize that the the the approach to solve that problem was the approach that you picked

what does Andrew do and what made you realize that the the the approach to solve that problem was the approach that you picked

56:30

that seems like such a grand. I mean, I I understand the high level of what you do, but it's so grand that I think, well, like oculus fairly grand, but I kinda get that. You can kinda tinker in your garage and come up with a nifty product and whatever. And, like, no one's gonna, like, get hurt really, and it's like a pretty simple process

that seems like such a grand. I mean, I I understand the high level of what you do, but it's so grand that I think, well, like oculus fairly grand, but I kinda get that. You can kinda tinker in your garage and come up with a nifty product and whatever. And, like, no one's gonna, like, get hurt really, and it's like a pretty simple process

56:47

hard, but simple.

hard, but simple.

56:49

Andrew, I'm like, oh my god. I don't even know where to start. I mean, I get I've seen the movie with Jonah Hill where he's like a war dog or whatever it's called where he like buys and sell weapons and I'm Is that what Andrew does? And yeah. Yeah. I'm like, is that what Andrew does? And how on earth does even a rich guy who's twenty eight in his apartment or his big house come up with this. This is crazy. Like, who do you call? You call like, hey,

Andrew, I'm like, oh my god. I don't even know where to start. I mean, I get I've seen the movie with Jonah Hill where he's like a war dog or whatever it's called where he like buys and sell weapons and I'm Is that what Andrew does? And yeah. Yeah. I'm like, is that what Andrew does? And how on earth does even a rich guy who's twenty eight in his apartment or his big house come up with this. This is crazy. Like, who do you call? You call like, hey,

57:10

hey, Brock. I was thinking, you know, maybe we could try this, like, MVP. You know what I mean? I don't even know how you start that. I mean, it it's tough. And it is such a big problem and so unapproachable

hey, Brock. I was thinking, you know, maybe we could try this, like, MVP. You know what I mean? I don't even know how you start that. I mean, it it's tough. And it is such a big problem and so unapproachable

57:21

that very few people do approach it. I mean, like, very big picture.

that very few people do approach it. I mean, like, very big picture.

57:25

Annroll is trying to build the next major defense prime, meaning we were the prime contract holder. We're not a subcontractor.

Annroll is trying to build the next major defense prime, meaning we were the prime contract holder. We're not a subcontractor.

57:32

To existing primes, like Lockheed Martin or Raytheon or Northrop Grumman or Boeing.

To existing primes, like Lockheed Martin or Raytheon or Northrop Grumman or Boeing.

57:37

And,

And,

57:37

you know, I eighty percent of the US defense budget goes to just a handful of companies. These big primes that just completely dominate the industry.

you know, I eighty percent of the US defense budget goes to just a handful of companies. These big primes that just completely dominate the industry.

57:47

And they get paid on what's called a cost plus basis. They get paid for their time, materials, fixed percentage of profit on top, which means that they're instead wise to move slowly. They actually make more money when they come up with more expensive systems, more money when they sell more of something, more money when it even breaks more often. Because they get to sell more parts for it. I mean, it's it's a it's a really bizarre

And they get paid on what's called a cost plus basis. They get paid for their time, materials, fixed percentage of profit on top, which means that they're instead wise to move slowly. They actually make more money when they come up with more expensive systems, more money when they sell more of something, more money when it even breaks more often. Because they get to sell more parts for it. I mean, it's it's a it's a really bizarre

58:07

contracting system that we created in World War two to basically take over the US war machine or sorry, the US industrial machine, turn it into a war machine because companies like Ford were saying, hey, I I can't even quote you what it's gonna cost to make a tank because I've never really, you know, this has never really been my business. And, they said, okay, fine. We'll pay you whatever it costs and then a fixed percentage of profit on top to make sure that you are able to keep running your business. And then, unfortunately, we just kept doing that.

contracting system that we created in World War two to basically take over the US war machine or sorry, the US industrial machine, turn it into a war machine because companies like Ford were saying, hey, I I can't even quote you what it's gonna cost to make a tank because I've never really, you know, this has never really been my business. And, they said, okay, fine. We'll pay you whatever it costs and then a fixed percentage of profit on top to make sure that you are able to keep running your business. And then, unfortunately, we just kept doing that.

58:33

Even though we were no longer in an existential war mode. And so in the last thirty five years, since the end of the cold war, the government had completely lost its ability to grow small defense companies into large defense accounts companies. I mean, you know, Samuel Colt went from working in

Even though we were no longer in an existential war mode. And so in the last thirty five years, since the end of the cold war, the government had completely lost its ability to grow small defense companies into large defense accounts companies. I mean, you know, Samuel Colt went from working in

58:49

his tiny garage workshop to arming the entire Western world. That's that's that's what we used to be able to do. You could start small and get big if you had the best stuff. But in the last thirty five years, there were only two unicorns before Andrew in the defense space. And thirty five years not just being chosen arbitrarily. It's basically since the end of the Cold War. During the cold war, we did turn small defense companies into into major players. But since then, it's Palantir SpaceX, both founded by billionaires, And then nobody else, that's it. And so it it's so hard to get in. You know, founders say I have no idea how I could possibly start a defense company. So they don't start a defense company. Venture capitalists say, I'm not gonna invest in a defense company. There's no examples of success in the last thirty five years, less the billionaires.

his tiny garage workshop to arming the entire Western world. That's that's that's what we used to be able to do. You could start small and get big if you had the best stuff. But in the last thirty five years, there were only two unicorns before Andrew in the defense space. And thirty five years not just being chosen arbitrarily. It's basically since the end of the Cold War. During the cold war, we did turn small defense companies into into major players. But since then, it's Palantir SpaceX, both founded by billionaires, And then nobody else, that's it. And so it it's so hard to get in. You know, founders say I have no idea how I could possibly start a defense company. So they don't start a defense company. Venture capitalists say, I'm not gonna invest in a defense company. There's no examples of success in the last thirty five years, less the billionaires.

59:32

Who can do anything. I'm sure they could have done whatever they wanted with their billions.

Who can do anything. I'm sure they could have done whatever they wanted with their billions.

59:35

And so the VCs don't want want to invest in it. And this is and and then smart employees don't wanna go work at defense startups because they look at the landscape. They say, look, this might be a cool lifestyle business, but it's never gonna grow to a scale where the equity that I'm given is a significant

And so the VCs don't want want to invest in it. And this is and and then smart employees don't wanna go work at defense startups because they look at the landscape. They say, look, this might be a cool lifestyle business, but it's never gonna grow to a scale where the equity that I'm given is a significant

59:50

is a significant

is a significant

59:51

way to generate money for me and my family. And so, I I I said, man, if that's really what it takes,

way to generate money for me and my family. And so, I I I said, man, if that's really what it takes,

59:58

it it it it it really does take lots and lots of money and lots and lots of influence and really smart people that I'm in a position to start a company that very few people are. Very few founders have experience running a multi billion dollar company with thousands of employees man mass manufacturing millions of pieces of hardware

it it it it it really does take lots and lots of money and lots and lots of influence and really smart people that I'm in a position to start a company that very few people are. Very few founders have experience running a multi billion dollar company with thousands of employees man mass manufacturing millions of pieces of hardware

01:00:17

and

and

01:00:18

are

are

01:00:19

and are willing to give up the adoration of their peers in the media. Like, that was actually probably the most important factor. If I would have just left oculus by retiring on my own, it would have been much harder for me to go into an area like building weapons for the US and our allies because so many people got so angry about it. You know, friends that I had who didn't wanna talk to me anymore. Investors who said that not only would we never make money, but that what we were doing was morally reprehensible

and are willing to give up the adoration of their peers in the media. Like, that was actually probably the most important factor. If I would have just left oculus by retiring on my own, it would have been much harder for me to go into an area like building weapons for the US and our allies because so many people got so angry about it. You know, friends that I had who didn't wanna talk to me anymore. Investors who said that not only would we never make money, but that what we were doing was morally reprehensible

01:00:45

and wrong. And, yeah, I was trying to explain to people. Listen, we live in a world where

and wrong. And, yeah, I was trying to explain to people. Listen, we live in a world where

01:00:50

Our major strategic adversaries are rapidly building advanced technology that has no peer here in the United States war machine.

Our major strategic adversaries are rapidly building advanced technology that has no peer here in the United States war machine.

01:01:00

Major conflict

Major conflict

01:01:02

is imminent in Asia, in Europe, with a lot of our strong allies and partners, and we need to be ready not just to win those wars. The goal is not to win awards to deter a war from happening in the first place. And if we don't have the tools we need to deter them, then war is inevitable. And I you guys probably remember how things were. You know, I guess, about five or six years ago, it was a very, very popular

is imminent in Asia, in Europe, with a lot of our strong allies and partners, and we need to be ready not just to win those wars. The goal is not to win awards to deter a war from happening in the first place. And if we don't have the tools we need to deter them, then war is inevitable. And I you guys probably remember how things were. You know, I guess, about five or six years ago, it was a very, very popular

01:01:25

to believe that we're at the end of history and that peace is too profitable for anyone to rock the boat. And that that was the thing that would keep everybody in line. I think that Russia invading Ukraine finally woke up a lot of people to realize that history is not over.

to believe that we're at the end of history and that peace is too profitable for anyone to rock the boat. And that that was the thing that would keep everybody in line. I think that Russia invading Ukraine finally woke up a lot of people to realize that history is not over.

01:01:40

Land borders are not fixed. And, it like, I mean, Look how wild it is that Europe is still buying billions of dollars

Land borders are not fixed. And, it like, I mean, Look how wild it is that Europe is still buying billions of dollars

01:01:48

of goods from Russia, even as Russia literally invades Europe. I mean, like, that that's that's how screw that's how screwed they are. And I think people people did not see this a few years ago, and I felt I felt a little bit like a crazy person.

of goods from Russia, even as Russia literally invades Europe. I mean, like, that that's that's how screw that's how screwed they are. And I think people people did not see this a few years ago, and I felt I felt a little bit like a crazy person.

01:02:03

And if I'll I'll ramble on one more thing, and you've probably heard me say this before elsewhere, but it could be that, you know, your your your viewers haven't has had heard me say this. I'll say it again.

And if I'll I'll ramble on one more thing, and you've probably heard me say this before elsewhere, but it could be that, you know, your your your viewers haven't has had heard me say this. I'll say it again.

01:02:12

You know, that we're living in the first time in US history where the most

You know, that we're living in the first time in US history where the most

01:02:17

innovative,

innovative,

01:02:18

powerful in large technology companies in our country refused to work with the military. That's never been the case. Our most powerful companies have always understood that they had a responsibility

powerful in large technology companies in our country refused to work with the military. That's never been the case. Our most powerful companies have always understood that they had a responsibility

01:02:28

to aid with national security.

to aid with national security.

01:02:30

But now, well, I mean, whether you're talking about Google or in particular Apple, I mean, Apple's got ninety five percent of their manufacturing in China

But now, well, I mean, whether you're talking about Google or in particular Apple, I mean, Apple's got ninety five percent of their manufacturing in China

01:02:38

they agreed to invest a they've invested hundreds of billions of dollars in manufacturing capacity there. They've agreed to invest a further two hundred and seventy five billion dollars in Chinese manufacturer in exchange for being allowed to operate as an independent company in China instead of being nationalized

they agreed to invest a they've invested hundreds of billions of dollars in manufacturing capacity there. They've agreed to invest a further two hundred and seventy five billion dollars in Chinese manufacturer in exchange for being allowed to operate as an independent company in China instead of being nationalized

01:02:52

into a joint venture majority owned by China. I mean, they they

into a joint venture majority owned by China. I mean, they they

01:02:58

they're in a position where if they do anything

they're in a position where if they do anything

01:03:00

to upset the Chinese government,

to upset the Chinese government,

01:03:03

the one person in China could sign one piece of paper that would wipe out the most powerful company in the entire

the one person in China could sign one piece of paper that would wipe out the most powerful company in the entire

01:03:09

world instantly, a two trillion dollar company. Like, they they they are not masters of their own destiny. Not by by any means. I I I guess I wonder if stress this because it's never been the case in history, and that had me terrified. You know, I I five years ago, I could see we were on the precipice of war with advanced powers who had fully suppressed our most advanced technology companies through economic tools. And, you know, they've I I I don't understand why more people were not scared by that. But I felt like I couldn't do anything that was more important than starting Andrew to start help solving that problem. And thanks for letting me ramble for so long than that. I know that was a long but I've I've got a lot a lot of emotion all built up inside of on on it. No. I mean, that's why we wanted you on is to hear what you're doing and why. And you also flipped and, like, the common denominator with either the prison thing, the food, the the oil based foods, or this is that you kind of looked at it from another angle also maybe flip the incentives to the cost structure. So what you were saying was, you know, let's say with the prison thing, you wanted to be incentivized to keep people out of prison rather than in prison for as long as possible. Exactly. Sounds like for Andrew. Sounds so simple. Right?

world instantly, a two trillion dollar company. Like, they they they are not masters of their own destiny. Not by by any means. I I I guess I wonder if stress this because it's never been the case in history, and that had me terrified. You know, I I five years ago, I could see we were on the precipice of war with advanced powers who had fully suppressed our most advanced technology companies through economic tools. And, you know, they've I I I don't understand why more people were not scared by that. But I felt like I couldn't do anything that was more important than starting Andrew to start help solving that problem. And thanks for letting me ramble for so long than that. I know that was a long but I've I've got a lot a lot of emotion all built up inside of on on it. No. I mean, that's why we wanted you on is to hear what you're doing and why. And you also flipped and, like, the common denominator with either the prison thing, the food, the the oil based foods, or this is that you kind of looked at it from another angle also maybe flip the incentives to the cost structure. So what you were saying was, you know, let's say with the prison thing, you wanted to be incentivized to keep people out of prison rather than in prison for as long as possible. Exactly. Sounds like for Andrew. Sounds so simple. Right?

01:04:14

Yeah. Sounds like for Andrew.

Yeah. Sounds like for Andrew.

01:04:16

It is simple, but it's not easy.

It is simple, but it's not easy.

01:04:18

No. Yeah. And well, and it sounds like what you ran into there was the incentive,

No. Yeah. And well, and it sounds like what you ran into there was the incentive,

01:04:23

for the local official who, you know,

for the local official who, you know,

01:04:27

who decides on these things may have been to have a a bigger budget and not a smaller budget. And so, you know, your incentives were sort of clashing. Right. Whereas with And he doesn't and he doesn't have to say I'm not buying your thing because my incentives are wrong. Be like, oh, we've done an assessment of all the vendors. And this one really has a lot more experience, and we don't wanna take a risk on a new vendor. It could literally be that simple. He people like, oh, but how would they justify the business model? You know, it would be so much better. It's like, he doesn't have to. Like, you you he can just be like, nope. I I'm too at risk. What's the business model with Andrew? Cause you're not doing cost plus you're doing something else. And,

who decides on these things may have been to have a a bigger budget and not a smaller budget. And so, you know, your incentives were sort of clashing. Right. Whereas with And he doesn't and he doesn't have to say I'm not buying your thing because my incentives are wrong. Be like, oh, we've done an assessment of all the vendors. And this one really has a lot more experience, and we don't wanna take a risk on a new vendor. It could literally be that simple. He people like, oh, but how would they justify the business model? You know, it would be so much better. It's like, he doesn't have to. Like, you you he can just be like, nope. I I'm too at risk. What's the business model with Andrew? Cause you're not doing cost plus you're doing something else. And,

01:05:00

so that's why we're we're we're We're a defense product company. I mean, we we work the way it's not even a revolutionary business model. It's the way every tech company works. You use your own money,

so that's why we're we're we're We're a defense product company. I mean, we we work the way it's not even a revolutionary business model. It's the way every tech company works. You use your own money,

01:05:10

You build a product, you make it work, and then you go to customers, and you sell it to them. And that that is a very hard thing to do in the defense space. But we've basically bet that we will be able to pick the right things to work on. They will be able to find the right partners in government to tell us what we should be investing our own money in ahead of time, and that in the end when it works, that we'll be able to sell most of the time to the government. Now There'll be times where we get screwed. There'll be times where we don't build things that work. And, you know, and it's our own money that we burned

You build a product, you make it work, and then you go to customers, and you sell it to them. And that that is a very hard thing to do in the defense space. But we've basically bet that we will be able to pick the right things to work on. They will be able to find the right partners in government to tell us what we should be investing our own money in ahead of time, and that in the end when it works, that we'll be able to sell most of the time to the government. Now There'll be times where we get screwed. There'll be times where we don't build things that work. And, you know, and it's our own money that we burned

01:05:40

instead of taxpayers.

instead of taxpayers.

01:05:42

But on the whole, we're very incentivized to be efficient. We don't want it things to drag out. We don't wanna drag it out to be a ten year R and D program on a cost plus basis when when we can get it done in six months with some really, really smart ideas. And so we we've got the right incentives, and we're we're we're basically out there trying to convince the Department of Defense

But on the whole, we're very incentivized to be efficient. We don't want it things to drag out. We don't wanna drag it out to be a ten year R and D program on a cost plus basis when when we can get it done in six months with some really, really smart ideas. And so we we've got the right incentives, and we're we're we're basically out there trying to convince the Department of Defense

01:05:59

and politicians that this is the way that all defense

and politicians that this is the way that all defense

01:06:02

companies should be working. Everyone should live in fear looking over their own own shoulder, knowing that if they fail, that they're the ones who are gonna get screwed, not taxpayers. So when you get a contract that's like, we got a nine hundred million dollar contract. That's after you've already produced the product, and they're basically just agreeing to buy the goods at that point. Is that what that means in your case?

companies should be working. Everyone should live in fear looking over their own own shoulder, knowing that if they fail, that they're the ones who are gonna get screwed, not taxpayers. So when you get a contract that's like, we got a nine hundred million dollar contract. That's after you've already produced the product, and they're basically just agreeing to buy the goods at that point. Is that what that means in your case?

01:06:22

Yeah. I mean, we recently just won a billion dollar contract with Socom, special operations,

Yeah. I mean, we recently just won a billion dollar contract with Socom, special operations,

01:06:27

command,

command,

01:06:28

to do all of their counter drone work. So basically protecting like, building the hardware and software that is defending them from,

to do all of their counter drone work. So basically protecting like, building the hardware and software that is defending them from,

01:06:35

from drones that are attacking their installations and positions.

from drones that are attacking their installations and positions.

01:06:39

And we started working on our counter drone system using all of our own money years and years ago before we had any customer. We just we we started building the hardware and the software, building our interceptors, building our jammers.

And we started working on our counter drone system using all of our own money years and years ago before we had any customer. We just we we started building the hardware and the software, building our interceptors, building our jammers.

01:06:50

And, then we it was after we invested a ton of our own money and proved that this was the right way to solve the problem, we were able to go. And, actually, there was a full competition

And, then we it was after we invested a ton of our own money and proved that this was the right way to solve the problem, we were able to go. And, actually, there was a full competition

01:06:59

for who they were gonna select for this, and they did basically a shoot off between all these different companies And some of the companies that we beat were actually getting paid by the government to develop their systems using government money But we had invested quite a bit more money and moved much faster. And there were literally contractors that were complaining saying, this isn't fair. Have to compete with Andrew, and they've been investing their own money for years. How could we possibly be expected to compete when the government's only given us you know, tens of millions of dollars over the course of the last two years. And I I'm like, guys, like, of course, this is how it works. Like, you could have won if you had spent your own money. If you had spent your own money for five years, you probably would be able to compete with us on an even playing field, but you can't take no risk and expect all of the reward. And we spend a lot less than these companies developing much better capabilities because we have the right incentives.

for who they were gonna select for this, and they did basically a shoot off between all these different companies And some of the companies that we beat were actually getting paid by the government to develop their systems using government money But we had invested quite a bit more money and moved much faster. And there were literally contractors that were complaining saying, this isn't fair. Have to compete with Andrew, and they've been investing their own money for years. How could we possibly be expected to compete when the government's only given us you know, tens of millions of dollars over the course of the last two years. And I I'm like, guys, like, of course, this is how it works. Like, you could have won if you had spent your own money. If you had spent your own money for five years, you probably would be able to compete with us on an even playing field, but you can't take no risk and expect all of the reward. And we spend a lot less than these companies developing much better capabilities because we have the right incentives.

01:07:51

So you're you're I think I think you're thirty years old. So you're we're we're all the same age. You're sitting there with a Hawaiian. Thirty a few weeks ago. Well, happy birthday. You're sitting there in a fucking Hawaiian t shirt with a goatee.

So you're you're I think I think you're thirty years old. So you're we're we're all the same age. You're sitting there with a Hawaiian. Thirty a few weeks ago. Well, happy birthday. You're sitting there in a fucking Hawaiian t shirt with a goatee.

01:08:03

I you're probably the type of dude who walks around bare footed all the time, and you're talking about cosplay.

I you're probably the type of dude who walks around bare footed all the time, and you're talking about cosplay.

01:08:08

And yet you just said, we just want a billion dollar contract from the government How do you work up like the the huevos, the confidence to think, like,

And yet you just said, we just want a billion dollar contract from the government How do you work up like the the huevos, the confidence to think, like,

01:08:17

I'm gonna go in against all these gray haired suits and, like, they're gonna the government's eventually gonna take me seriously and I'm gonna sell this, sell this thing. I mean, or do you have people selling on your behalf? But, like,

I'm gonna go in against all these gray haired suits and, like, they're gonna the government's eventually gonna take me seriously and I'm gonna sell this, sell this thing. I mean, or do you have people selling on your behalf? But, like,

01:08:29

That that's just a reach for me to understand.

That that's just a reach for me to understand.

01:08:32

Some people think that I should that I should dress differently and try to kind of, you know, appeal to the government sensibilities and, like, you know, I should be dressing in a suit, and I should be very, very straight laced and, you know, be very, very serious all the time. But I think that one of the most important things that Annroll is doing is not just building technology ourselves, but it's inspiring other companies to work in defense, not just company, like, inspiring companies that aren't in defense to pivot in defense and inspiring people to start new defense companies. And if they see me, like, becoming a boring guy who's who's, you know, has to make himself super lame to sell to the government. That's not a lifestyle that they're gonna wanna lead. You know, and so we need to show that they can be successful and show them that it's that it's gonna be fun. Now I also wanna keep, wearing flip flops in Hawaiian shirt. So maybe I'm maybe this is just, you know, post facto justification on my board. I I I feel like I'm doing everyone a disservice if I were to change. Yeah. I think it's working. Now, you know, we, the podcast is all about the future. We're always brainstorming ideas, opportunities,

Some people think that I should that I should dress differently and try to kind of, you know, appeal to the government sensibilities and, like, you know, I should be dressing in a suit, and I should be very, very straight laced and, you know, be very, very serious all the time. But I think that one of the most important things that Annroll is doing is not just building technology ourselves, but it's inspiring other companies to work in defense, not just company, like, inspiring companies that aren't in defense to pivot in defense and inspiring people to start new defense companies. And if they see me, like, becoming a boring guy who's who's, you know, has to make himself super lame to sell to the government. That's not a lifestyle that they're gonna wanna lead. You know, and so we need to show that they can be successful and show them that it's that it's gonna be fun. Now I also wanna keep, wearing flip flops in Hawaiian shirt. So maybe I'm maybe this is just, you know, post facto justification on my board. I I I feel like I'm doing everyone a disservice if I were to change. Yeah. I think it's working. Now, you know, we, the podcast is all about the future. We're always brainstorming ideas, opportunities,

01:09:30

but none of that matters if there's not really a future, if there's about to become World War three and there's nukes flying everywhere. So you're kind of, a lot more in the loop than any guest that we've ever had on this.

but none of that matters if there's not really a future, if there's about to become World War three and there's nukes flying everywhere. So you're kind of, a lot more in the loop than any guest that we've ever had on this.

01:09:42

What's gonna happen here is this what are the odds of, like, you know, this sort of Ukraine, Russia conflict breaking out into something a lot more serious and, like, you know, is there gonna be a nuclear weapon, you know, in our in your future. So let me it's very hard to predict. There's people who are better at this than me. Like, what I always tell people is, like, our role is to build the tools then you have to trust in democracy to deploy them correctly. And people are like, oh, you know, when would you stop supplying weapons to, you, you, you, Ukraine, and is there a point where you'd be too, you know, where you where you think that we should where you would make sure that you're not part of a nuclear escalation. And I say, listen, if you believe in democracy,

What's gonna happen here is this what are the odds of, like, you know, this sort of Ukraine, Russia conflict breaking out into something a lot more serious and, like, you know, is there gonna be a nuclear weapon, you know, in our in your future. So let me it's very hard to predict. There's people who are better at this than me. Like, what I always tell people is, like, our role is to build the tools then you have to trust in democracy to deploy them correctly. And people are like, oh, you know, when would you stop supplying weapons to, you, you, you, Ukraine, and is there a point where you'd be too, you know, where you where you think that we should where you would make sure that you're not part of a nuclear escalation. And I say, listen, if you believe in democracy,

01:10:20

at all, then you should not want US foreign policy to be dictated by the ever changing whims of technology

at all, then you should not want US foreign policy to be dictated by the ever changing whims of technology

01:10:27

executives. Like, what an extraordinarily dangerous precedent to set that, you know, you'll build weapons for the people you are politically aligned with, and then you'll suddenly drop it

executives. Like, what an extraordinarily dangerous precedent to set that, you know, you'll build weapons for the people you are politically aligned with, and then you'll suddenly drop it

01:10:37

despite the US like, what it really is is I will sell

despite the US like, what it really is is I will sell

01:10:40

to the people that the US State Department and the US DOD want me to. Like, if if that that that need because they have information that I don't, they have intelligence that I do not, and I cannot second guess that and say, Oh, you know, I I would stop supplying if I thought there was this level of of escalation. But, you know, with with that out of the way, I think that we are going to see a tactical nuke get used. And and for people who are not familiar with the difference, tactical nuclear weapons are designed for tactical use as part of a battle

to the people that the US State Department and the US DOD want me to. Like, if if that that that need because they have information that I don't, they have intelligence that I do not, and I cannot second guess that and say, Oh, you know, I I would stop supplying if I thought there was this level of of escalation. But, you know, with with that out of the way, I think that we are going to see a tactical nuke get used. And and for people who are not familiar with the difference, tactical nuclear weapons are designed for tactical use as part of a battle

01:11:09

for basically conventional warfare tactics. So blowing up, you know, you're blowing up, an armored division or taking out a wing of bombers or maybe even destroying an airfield.

for basically conventional warfare tactics. So blowing up, you know, you're blowing up, an armored division or taking out a wing of bombers or maybe even destroying an airfield.

01:11:20

Strategic nuclear weapons are used to deter mass nuclear exchange.

Strategic nuclear weapons are used to deter mass nuclear exchange.

01:11:25

And to engage in, you know, strategic level annihilation of cities and the like.

And to engage in, you know, strategic level annihilation of cities and the like.

01:11:31

The United States disassemble all of our tactical nuclear weapons a long time ago. We decided that our wart doctrine

The United States disassemble all of our tactical nuclear weapons a long time ago. We decided that our wart doctrine

01:11:38

did not allow for tactical nukes. Nukes are only something you use at a strategic level to deter other people from using them against you. That is not the case for Russia. Russia has tactical nuclear weapons, if they train to use them, they it is part of their doctrine that they will use them in conventional conflict,

did not allow for tactical nukes. Nukes are only something you use at a strategic level to deter other people from using them against you. That is not the case for Russia. Russia has tactical nuclear weapons, if they train to use them, they it is part of their doctrine that they will use them in conventional conflict,

01:11:57

and they are at, like, even just having that in their doctrine shows that

and they are at, like, even just having that in their doctrine shows that

01:12:02

to some degree, they are willing to bet that the United States and nobody else would respond with strategic nuclear weapons in response to use of a tactical nuclear weapon. And, the the you know, some people say, oh, e even saying that they'll use a nuke is akin to supporting Russia and saying we shouldn't support Ukraine. At the I'm not saying that at all. I think, actually, appeasement has the the the longer that they're actually the the greater risk. I mean, if you can show if you show to the world that if you show to a world that even the threat of small scale tactical nuclear weapons is enough to deter

to some degree, they are willing to bet that the United States and nobody else would respond with strategic nuclear weapons in response to use of a tactical nuclear weapon. And, the the you know, some people say, oh, e even saying that they'll use a nuke is akin to supporting Russia and saying we shouldn't support Ukraine. At the I'm not saying that at all. I think, actually, appeasement has the the the longer that they're actually the the greater risk. I mean, if you can show if you show to the world that if you show to a world that even the threat of small scale tactical nuclear weapons is enough to deter

01:12:37

any kind of intervention

any kind of intervention

01:12:39

in any kind of con in any kind of conventional warfare, you actually hugely incentivize the nations of the world to obtain their own tactical nuclear weapons. You you you you don't really actually want the calculus to tip that way where countries look and say, wow. All Russia had to do was threaten to use their tactical nukes And then they were allowed to operate with impunity in a conventional invasion, and nobody was willing to stop to do anything about it or even stop buying their exports. Like, that that's the that that that that'd be a very, very bad precedent to set even beyond this war. And so for that reason, I I think this is a little contrarian and not everyone agrees, but I think that the odds of a tactical nuclear weapon are very high It will not be used on the United States. It will not be used on a NATO ally. It'll probably be a tactical nuclear weapon. Used to strike some inarguably

in any kind of con in any kind of conventional warfare, you actually hugely incentivize the nations of the world to obtain their own tactical nuclear weapons. You you you you don't really actually want the calculus to tip that way where countries look and say, wow. All Russia had to do was threaten to use their tactical nukes And then they were allowed to operate with impunity in a conventional invasion, and nobody was willing to stop to do anything about it or even stop buying their exports. Like, that that's the that that that that'd be a very, very bad precedent to set even beyond this war. And so for that reason, I I think this is a little contrarian and not everyone agrees, but I think that the odds of a tactical nuclear weapon are very high It will not be used on the United States. It will not be used on a NATO ally. It'll probably be a tactical nuclear weapon. Used to strike some inarguably

01:13:28

military target. Like, it probably they're not gonna they're not gonna nuke Kiv.

military target. Like, it probably they're not gonna they're not gonna nuke Kiv.

01:13:32

It it's much more likely that it would be a port or a, you know, or or an air installation or or something like that. And I the reason I'd like to talk about this is I want people to get comfortable with this because There's this idea that,

It it's much more likely that it would be a port or a, you know, or or an air installation or or something like that. And I the reason I'd like to talk about this is I want people to get comfortable with this because There's this idea that,

01:13:45

you know, you use you use an you use use a nuclear weapon and all of a sudden you're in World War three.

you know, you use you use an you use use a nuclear weapon and all of a sudden you're in World War three.

01:13:51

I think that's actually probably the wrong the wrong way to look at it because if you do that, you're tacitly admitting that tactical nuclear weapons deserve a strategic nuclear level response. And if you set that up as, you know, the the nice lubricated pathway all slide down, yeah, things should get really bad really. This sounds like

I think that's actually probably the wrong the wrong way to look at it because if you do that, you're tacitly admitting that tactical nuclear weapons deserve a strategic nuclear level response. And if you set that up as, you know, the the nice lubricated pathway all slide down, yeah, things should get really bad really. This sounds like

01:14:09

selfish and trite, but I I think I it's important to me and I bet it's important to a lot of people. What does that mean for me? A

selfish and trite, but I I think I it's important to me and I bet it's important to a lot of people. What does that mean for me? A

01:14:17

wealthy American

wealthy American

01:14:19

with money in the stock market

with money in the stock market

01:14:21

who

who

01:14:21

just lives in a a nice life. Like, does that mean that, like, inflation is gonna get huge. Does that mean that my investments are gonna go down? Does that mean that, like, people I know, I don't know anyone in Ukraine. So I'm I care about them. Like, does that mean people I know are gonna get hurt? What does that mean for me?

just lives in a a nice life. Like, does that mean that, like, inflation is gonna get huge. Does that mean that my investments are gonna go down? Does that mean that, like, people I know, I don't know anyone in Ukraine. So I'm I care about them. Like, does that mean people I know are gonna get hurt? What does that mean for me?

01:14:38

It's a fair question. You know, I'm in a different position. I know I know people who are Ukraine. I even I know people who are in Ukraine. So for me, it all it does get a little bit personal. And we we have employees here who are who who are deeply

It's a fair question. You know, I'm in a different position. I know I know people who are Ukraine. I even I know people who are in Ukraine. So for me, it all it does get a little bit personal. And we we have employees here who are who who are deeply

01:14:50

deeply

deeply

01:14:51

you know, involved in one way or another with the people of Ukraine.

you know, involved in one way or another with the people of Ukraine.

01:14:55

But I I think mostly you need to boil it now not to necessarily Ukraine specific question, but the the broader geopolitical question,

But I I think mostly you need to boil it now not to necessarily Ukraine specific question, but the the broader geopolitical question,

01:15:02

is the United States

is the United States

01:15:04

the world police?

the world police?

01:15:05

Are we going to

Are we going to

01:15:07

help our allies and to what extent. And I I'm not saying that that instantly means that we need to

help our allies and to what extent. And I I'm not saying that that instantly means that we need to

01:15:13

throw ourselves into World War three over every conflict But we do need to very carefully weigh. Like, what what will happen in Taiwan

throw ourselves into World War three over every conflict But we do need to very carefully weigh. Like, what what will happen in Taiwan

01:15:21

if we completely pull that? Like, I there's a million ways to tackle this. So I'm not trying to set up a straw man here, but I'll I'll throw out one that is actually very popular with certain politicians. They say we should completely

if we completely pull that? Like, I there's a million ways to tackle this. So I'm not trying to set up a straw man here, but I'll I'll throw out one that is actually very popular with certain politicians. They say we should completely

01:15:33

pull out We should not engage. This is not our problem. Let the let the ex Soviet guys duke it out. They can do whatever they want.

pull out We should not engage. This is not our problem. Let the let the ex Soviet guys duke it out. They can do whatever they want.

01:15:41

Well, one, the their the first issue is

Well, one, the their the first issue is

01:15:44

our European allies are gonna be in pretty bad shape if they have Russia right on their border able to move deep, deep deep into Europe without any kind of buffer. More importantly, what do you think China's gonna do if they see that that's the United States attitude? They say, wow. Like, there there there is a price they will not pay.

our European allies are gonna be in pretty bad shape if they have Russia right on their border able to move deep, deep deep into Europe without any kind of buffer. More importantly, what do you think China's gonna do if they see that that's the United States attitude? They say, wow. Like, there there there is a price they will not pay.

01:16:03

There is there is a certain level they are not willing to get engaged at. If we can raise the cost above that level, then they will make the short term decision to not get engaged.

There is there is a certain level they are not willing to get engaged at. If we can raise the cost above that level, then they will make the short term decision to not get engaged.

01:16:13

That's very dangerous for Taiwan, which is, in turn, very dangerous for semiconductors

That's very dangerous for Taiwan, which is, in turn, very dangerous for semiconductors

01:16:19

and for our entire economy. Like, I if Taiwan actually gets invaded by China, you could see a thirty or forty percent drop in the stock market beyond what we've pretty seen. Like, that that's not even that's not even a that's not even a, like, a crazy assumption. That's like a pretty well backed up by all of the the boring

and for our entire economy. Like, I if Taiwan actually gets invaded by China, you could see a thirty or forty percent drop in the stock market beyond what we've pretty seen. Like, that that's not even that's not even a that's not even a, like, a crazy assumption. That's like a pretty well backed up by all of the the boring

01:16:36

establishment economics

establishment economics

01:16:38

as prediction.

as prediction.

01:16:39

So that that that the way that I see it is, you know, your question. Why should I care?

So that that that the way that I see it is, you know, your question. Why should I care?

01:16:45

Because If we want to maintain credibility as a player that can deter wars, not just win wars, then we have to take actions that maintain our credibility there. If we If if we were to say the ultimate version of this cruise, you're on your own world. We're all and we're gonna do our own thing. We're going to get screwed by that very, very quickly. And so there's something between zero engagement

Because If we want to maintain credibility as a player that can deter wars, not just win wars, then we have to take actions that maintain our credibility there. If we If if we were to say the ultimate version of this cruise, you're on your own world. We're all and we're gonna do our own thing. We're going to get screwed by that very, very quickly. And so there's something between zero engagement

01:17:07

and, you know, d day two point o

and, you know, d day two point o

01:17:10

that we have to do. This is great. Palmer, where can people find you if they wanna go work at Andrew or, you know, read more your stuff, your blog, your Twitter? Where where should people follow you or find you if they this.

that we have to do. This is great. Palmer, where can people find you if they wanna go work at Andrew or, you know, read more your stuff, your blog, your Twitter? Where where should people follow you or find you if they this.

01:17:23

Oh, man. Well, my my my my handle my handle across social media is palmer tech.

Oh, man. Well, my my my my handle my handle across social media is palmer tech.

01:17:28

But on you can find me on Twitter under the handle palmer Lucky.

But on you can find me on Twitter under the handle palmer Lucky.

01:17:31

If there's my website, palmerlucky dot com, the number one palmerlucky blog on the internet, and there is also in your work. Press sites. What up? I'm coming for you. Uh-uh.

If there's my website, palmerlucky dot com, the number one palmerlucky blog on the internet, and there is also in your work. Press sites. What up? I'm coming for you. Uh-uh.

01:17:42

Well, hey, my my George impressed too. Great tool. Yeah. You tell him just tell me about palmer lucky sixty nine dot com. He's is this new project just working on. Yeah. It's got a lot of promise.

Well, hey, my my George impressed too. Great tool. Yeah. You tell him just tell me about palmer lucky sixty nine dot com. He's is this new project just working on. Yeah. It's got a lot of promise.

01:17:52

Oh, man. I gotta check this out. That sounds right up my alley. Oh, wait. Wait. I forgot. Do you wanna

Oh, man. I gotta check this out. That sounds right up my alley. Oh, wait. Wait. I forgot. Do you wanna

01:17:58

a WWE style promo at Jason Calicandis who's coming after you. He's challenging you to a fight. Why would you challenge

a WWE style promo at Jason Calicandis who's coming after you. He's challenging you to a fight. Why would you challenge

01:18:06

a guy who builds weapons for a living to a fight. I don't understand this, but if you wanna rip a w w style promo, this is this is the place. There are hundred thousand entrepreneurs ready to back you here if you can get them on your side. I mean, maybe this is because I all like, look, I'm I don't know if you can tell. Like, I'm actually a pretty big guy. Like, I weigh about two hundred fifty pounds. I'm six feet tall.

a guy who builds weapons for a living to a fight. I don't understand this, but if you wanna rip a w w style promo, this is this is the place. There are hundred thousand entrepreneurs ready to back you here if you can get them on your side. I mean, maybe this is because I all like, look, I'm I don't know if you can tell. Like, I'm actually a pretty big guy. Like, I weigh about two hundred fifty pounds. I'm six feet tall.

01:18:28

Like, I it's kind of

Like, I it's kind of

01:18:30

I understand the mechanics of fighting well enough, and I've I've done enough of it recreationally to understand that the it's unlikely that somebody who's, like, you know, five foot five and a hundred and forty pounds is gonna is get is gonna have a a a good shot. But I the thing is I don't I'm not I'm not a I'm not physical violence kinda guy. I I I think it's weird to be like, oh, yeah.

I understand the mechanics of fighting well enough, and I've I've done enough of it recreationally to understand that the it's unlikely that somebody who's, like, you know, five foot five and a hundred and forty pounds is gonna is get is gonna have a a a good shot. But I the thing is I don't I'm not I'm not a I'm not physical violence kinda guy. I I I think it's weird to be like, oh, yeah.

01:18:51

You you you

You you you

01:18:52

you you don't like me. Well, I could beat you in in hand to hand combat. It's like, well, I mean, maybe, but, like, your ideas are still bad. It's it's

you you don't like me. Well, I could beat you in in hand to hand combat. It's like, well, I mean, maybe, but, like, your ideas are still bad. It's it's

01:19:01

it doesn't it's one doesn't one doesn't solve the other.

it doesn't it's one doesn't one doesn't solve the other.

01:19:04

So no, unfortunately, I don't think I'll be throwing I don't think I'll be throwing down the gauntlet beyond beyond noting that just you

So no, unfortunately, I don't think I'll be throwing I don't think I'll be throwing down the gauntlet beyond beyond noting that just you

01:19:11

statistically speaking, you know, if if you just look at the fights between people of of of one bulk versus another,

statistically speaking, you know, if if you just look at the fights between people of of of one bulk versus another,

01:19:18

Yeah. There's there's a there's a clear trend. Is this the most Silicon Valley? Dude, is this the most Silicon Valley call out ever?

Yeah. There's there's a there's a clear trend. Is this the most Silicon Valley? Dude, is this the most Silicon Valley call out ever?

01:19:26

That's I am I know the mechanics of fighting.

That's I am I know the mechanics of fighting.

01:19:29

I

I

01:19:31

I I I'm I'm I'm having an okay. On my side, bitch,

I I I'm I'm I'm having an okay. On my side, bitch,

01:19:36

But,

But,

01:19:37

yeah, you know, I mean, and for and for people who are listening and don't know, the very short version is Jay Jason Calicana

yeah, you know, I mean, and for and for people who are listening and don't know, the very short version is Jay Jason Calicana

01:19:44

said a bunch of really awful stuff about me for for years

said a bunch of really awful stuff about me for for years

01:19:48

starting back in twenty sixteen

starting back in twenty sixteen

01:19:51

you know, when he said that I'm a terrible person, that I don't care about my family or my I think he said Palmer Lucky is a complete moron who doesn't care about his employees

you know, when he said that I'm a terrible person, that I don't care about my family or my I think he said Palmer Lucky is a complete moron who doesn't care about his employees

01:19:59

or his families

or his families

01:20:00

or his friends. And then I'll, you know, Palmer's an idiot. He's a moron. Zuckerberg should fire him, get rid of him, what a useless waste of space. Then not get fired. He celebrates it over and over. Oh, man. I'm so glad they fired him home. What a terrible loser, etcetera, etcetera. Anyway, then he just didn't then he just didn't talked to me for years, never reached out. And then he invites me to go speak it,

or his friends. And then I'll, you know, Palmer's an idiot. He's a moron. Zuckerberg should fire him, get rid of him, what a useless waste of space. Then not get fired. He celebrates it over and over. Oh, man. I'm so glad they fired him home. What a terrible loser, etcetera, etcetera. Anyway, then he just didn't then he just didn't talked to me for years, never reached out. And then he invites me to go speak it,

01:20:20

on his podcast and then at his conference. So I went there, and I basically just told people, I'm like, I can't believe Jason invited me. It's only because I've lollied my way back to having a second unicorn before the age of thirty. Like, this guy treating me, like, total garbage for years. He's never apologized. He spread a bunch of lie even in self society, he spread a bunch of lies about me. And then, at at the com and I say, Hey, here. Look at all this shitty said about me. Like, this is possible. It was like a hair deck. It was amazing.

on his podcast and then at his conference. So I went there, and I basically just told people, I'm like, I can't believe Jason invited me. It's only because I've lollied my way back to having a second unicorn before the age of thirty. Like, this guy treating me, like, total garbage for years. He's never apologized. He spread a bunch of lie even in self society, he spread a bunch of lies about me. And then, at at the com and I say, Hey, here. Look at all this shitty said about me. Like, this is possible. It was like a hair deck. It was amazing.

01:20:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

01:20:48

And and then, and it I did that at the end of my talk about, you know, basically the the future of conflict and particularly the war in Ukraine. And then, at the conference, he said that he was sorry if he said anything that offended me. But then when he put my video up, he said, actually, I take it back everything that I said was accurate, and I don't regret exactly what I said about him. And I was and so I now people keep hitting me up, be like, You guys need to bury the hatchet, you know, meet in the middle. I'm like, I didn't do anything to like,

And and then, and it I did that at the end of my talk about, you know, basically the the future of conflict and particularly the war in Ukraine. And then, at the conference, he said that he was sorry if he said anything that offended me. But then when he put my video up, he said, actually, I take it back everything that I said was accurate, and I don't regret exactly what I said about him. And I was and so I now people keep hitting me up, be like, You guys need to bury the hatchet, you know, meet in the middle. I'm like, I didn't do anything to like,

01:21:17

you you can't meet in the middle. Like, You're right. Maybe maybe I don't care about my family, but, you know, we can admit I I care about my friends. Let's meet in the middle. It's like, no. No. That's not gonna happen. Anyway, so now now Jason's saying that he can that he can beat me up,

you you can't meet in the middle. Like, You're right. Maybe maybe I don't care about my family, but, you know, we can admit I I care about my friends. Let's meet in the middle. It's like, no. No. That's not gonna happen. Anyway, so now now Jason's saying that he can that he can beat me up,

01:21:30

on any and and and, you know, look, look, Maybe he could, but the odds don't seem in his family. I do think he trains jujitsu. So that, you know, he does have that going for him. I if I recall correctly,

on any and and and, you know, look, look, Maybe he could, but the odds don't seem in his family. I do think he trains jujitsu. So that, you know, he does have that going for him. I if I recall correctly,

01:21:41

Hey, you know? I I I did I did I did karate one time when I was a kid. You know, had you played a shit, but I'm actually, but I'm actually a good old.

Hey, you know? I I I did I did I did karate one time when I was a kid. You know, had you played a shit, but I'm actually, but I'm actually a good old.

01:21:51

Now it's it's it's been wild for me because, I mean, my whole career, I've been, my my my whole career, I've been a whiz kid. You know, it's like the the Palmer Lucky Value proposition is, wow. Look at that guy. He's improbably successful given his age. And now it's just look at Palmer, he's, yeah, he's successful, I guess, you know, thirty Yeah. I wouldn't even wanna compete with the psychological impact of that. And also,

Now it's it's it's been wild for me because, I mean, my whole career, I've been, my my my whole career, I've been a whiz kid. You know, it's like the the Palmer Lucky Value proposition is, wow. Look at that guy. He's improbably successful given his age. And now it's just look at Palmer, he's, yeah, he's successful, I guess, you know, thirty Yeah. I wouldn't even wanna compete with the psychological impact of that. And also,

01:22:13

you know, I find Jason very entertaining. I like I don't know him personally very well or anything, but but, you know, he's entertaining, but he also, I think, was totally wrong in this,

you know, I find Jason very entertaining. I like I don't know him personally very well or anything, but but, you know, he's entertaining, but he also, I think, was totally wrong in this,

01:22:22

circumstance

circumstance

01:22:23

I remember when I first heard him say all that shit. I looked it up. I was like, man, Palmer must've well, I actually called you Parker Lucky. I was like, oh, man, this Parker Lucky That's right. This plucky little guy must've done something really messed up. And then I saw what was actually done, and I saw the coverage. And I was like, oh, he donated ten thousand dollars just, you know, like, this thing or whatever. You know, you you were right. Right. Whatever.

I remember when I first heard him say all that shit. I looked it up. I was like, man, Palmer must've well, I actually called you Parker Lucky. I was like, oh, man, this Parker Lucky That's right. This plucky little guy must've done something really messed up. And then I saw what was actually done, and I saw the coverage. And I was like, oh, he donated ten thousand dollars just, you know, like, this thing or whatever. You know, you you were right. Right. Whatever.

01:22:45

But Jason's out there saying he's palmer's paying Trump support. There's extreme terror trolling or something. Yeah. Yeah.

But Jason's out there saying he's palmer's paying Trump support. There's extreme terror trolling or something. Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:52

Yeah. Extreme terror trolling. He said not quite violent, but close to And he's posting anti Semitic memes and misogynistic

Yeah. Extreme terror trolling. He said not quite violent, but close to And he's posting anti Semitic memes and misogynistic

01:23:01

hate attacks. It's like, dude, it was nine thousand dollars to a billboard. Like, you've You've given a heck of a lot more -- Yeah. -- to spicier political stuff than that. A a bill worth. A bill worth, you know, in a political cause or a political donation is nothing. Like, you know, I think that's one of the big one of the big hypocrisy. It's not as mainstream as you can get. One of the big hypocrisy of Silicon Valley is, it's all about open mindedness unless you disagree with us, unless you unless you believe in the thing I don't agree with, then how dare you believe that? You know, how dare you support that Canada? I don't like, how dare you, you know, the half the country, you know, votes for or whatever. It's one of the great hypocrisy. Well, it's so it's so it's so foreign to me too because I mean, like, one of my best friends is a socialist.

hate attacks. It's like, dude, it was nine thousand dollars to a billboard. Like, you've You've given a heck of a lot more -- Yeah. -- to spicier political stuff than that. A a bill worth. A bill worth, you know, in a political cause or a political donation is nothing. Like, you know, I think that's one of the big one of the big hypocrisy. It's not as mainstream as you can get. One of the big hypocrisy of Silicon Valley is, it's all about open mindedness unless you disagree with us, unless you unless you believe in the thing I don't agree with, then how dare you believe that? You know, how dare you support that Canada? I don't like, how dare you, you know, the half the country, you know, votes for or whatever. It's one of the great hypocrisy. Well, it's so it's so it's so foreign to me too because I mean, like, one of my best friends is a socialist.

01:23:38

Like, we at we very we we strongly disagree politically, but, like, you know, running oculus, I was never I I I, like, I had my political beliefs, but they were, like, one percent of my time, I'm thinking. Ninety nine percent of it was on VR and my company. And it's it's it's it's actually very funny where, like, I there was a story recently that, you know, Palmer, Pomer Lucky, you know, a very outspoken Republican. I'm like, I mean, I've literally tweeted about politics two times in eight years. Like, yeah, they're, like, I'm not outspoken by any means, but to them, it means, like, oh, there was this story years ago where he privately donated not using his name, and that means he's an outspoken Republican. And, you know, imagine if people are like, Mark

Like, we at we very we we strongly disagree politically, but, like, you know, running oculus, I was never I I I, like, I had my political beliefs, but they were, like, one percent of my time, I'm thinking. Ninety nine percent of it was on VR and my company. And it's it's it's it's actually very funny where, like, I there was a story recently that, you know, Palmer, Pomer Lucky, you know, a very outspoken Republican. I'm like, I mean, I've literally tweeted about politics two times in eight years. Like, yeah, they're, like, I'm not outspoken by any means, but to them, it means, like, oh, there was this story years ago where he privately donated not using his name, and that means he's an outspoken Republican. And, you know, imagine if people are like, Mark

01:24:21

Zuckerberg,

Zuckerberg,

01:24:21

outspoken

outspoken

01:24:22

Democrat

Democrat

01:24:23

does act. Like, it doesn't even make sense. Right? Nobody would be like, you must have made a mistake. The sentence doesn't get typed.

does act. Like, it doesn't even make sense. Right? Nobody would be like, you must have made a mistake. The sentence doesn't get typed.

01:24:31

Yeah. But you know, I'd be that but that that's the best part about Andrew. Is that, you know, like, I am my political beliefs, like, our CEO, Brian Chip.

Yeah. But you know, I'd be that but that that's the best part about Andrew. Is that, you know, like, I am my political beliefs, like, our CEO, Brian Chip.

01:24:38

He's he's very much a Democrat.

He's he's very much a Democrat.

01:24:41

And we have a huge mix of people at Emerald across the entire political spectrum. And what we've done is said, listen, we we might not agree on everything, but we agree on the importance of national security. We agree that the United States needs to have the tools that deter Russia, China, and other aggressors from getting into fights with our partners and allies. And we agree that we can save taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars a year while we make tens of billions of dollars a year. And if we agree on those things, need to put aside the differences and you'll focus on what's what's the same. And I think that's been a really healthy company company culture. Like, a lot of other companies, you know, they'll they'll they wanna take one political side or the other, and we've been very clear. No. We are not a politically,

And we have a huge mix of people at Emerald across the entire political spectrum. And what we've done is said, listen, we we might not agree on everything, but we agree on the importance of national security. We agree that the United States needs to have the tools that deter Russia, China, and other aggressors from getting into fights with our partners and allies. And we agree that we can save taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars a year while we make tens of billions of dollars a year. And if we agree on those things, need to put aside the differences and you'll focus on what's what's the same. And I think that's been a really healthy company company culture. Like, a lot of other companies, you know, they'll they'll they wanna take one political side or the other, and we've been very clear. No. We are not a politically,

01:25:21

oriented company. We are a mission oriented company. And to the extent, like, if a Republican does something that's bad for our mission, we're gonna push back on it. If a Democrat does something that is bad for our mission, we're gonna push back on it. But it needs to be about our ability

oriented company. We are a mission oriented company. And to the extent, like, if a Republican does something that's bad for our mission, we're gonna push back on it. If a Democrat does something that is bad for our mission, we're gonna push back on it. But it needs to be about our ability

01:25:36

to, you know, defend the west, not our, you know, our personal opinions on how the country should be run. So that's that that's I I highly encourage people to set that to set that tone when they're starting their own companies. If you wanna be able to attract people, from all over the country, all over the world of all different political persuasions. Cause if you pick a side, you're you're alienating huge swathes of people, not just the people who disagree with you, but also people who don't want to be in a company that's partisan,

to, you know, defend the west, not our, you know, our personal opinions on how the country should be run. So that's that that's I I highly encourage people to set that to set that tone when they're starting their own companies. If you wanna be able to attract people, from all over the country, all over the world of all different political persuasions. Cause if you pick a side, you're you're alienating huge swathes of people, not just the people who disagree with you, but also people who don't want to be in a company that's partisan,

01:26:00

and might not even care one way or the other. I I know there's a lot of people here. Like, look, don't I don't even really have a strong political set of beliefs,

and might not even care one way or the other. I I know there's a lot of people here. Like, look, don't I don't even really have a strong political set of beliefs,

01:26:07

but I do know I don't wanna work in a place where that's the thing that drives all our decisions. You're like, we got the office socialist walking around giving away snacks. It's awesome. It's great. You need a diverse workplace like this. This is awesome. Dude, you're awesome.

but I do know I don't wanna work in a place where that's the thing that drives all our decisions. You're like, we got the office socialist walking around giving away snacks. It's awesome. It's great. You need a diverse workplace like this. This is awesome. Dude, you're awesome.

01:26:20

I'm that's right. I'm so pumped that, you came on. This is this is This has been amazing. I would love you to come on again. Well, wait. I have to bring up one more thing. Be I have to bring up one more thing. I I so I I get a chance to bring something up. Fine. Go. I I we we we we we we got we gotta talk about the the tweet you made where you said that,

I'm that's right. I'm so pumped that, you came on. This is this is This has been amazing. I would love you to come on again. Well, wait. I have to bring up one more thing. Be I have to bring up one more thing. I I so I I get a chance to bring something up. Fine. Go. I I we we we we we we got we gotta talk about the the tweet you made where you said that,

01:26:38

there's no way that there's any billionaires out there that actually fly coach and don't Oh, yes. Good. You have got a good memory. Do you do you fly coach? Oh, you you do fly coach. You said that. You're an idiot. What are you doing? Jacob was right.

there's no way that there's any billionaires out there that actually fly coach and don't Oh, yes. Good. You have got a good memory. Do you do you fly coach? Oh, you you do fly coach. You said that. You're an idiot. What are you doing? Jacob was right.

01:26:53

I mean, so so I I I the reason I wanted to chat about it is because yeah, I I think I responded. I told you, like, hey, you're wrong. Like, I I actually do I don't fly private and I do fly coach. For me, it's it's it's a it's a it's a reason thing where,

I mean, so so I I I the reason I wanted to chat about it is because yeah, I I think I responded. I told you, like, hey, you're wrong. Like, I I actually do I don't fly private and I do fly coach. For me, it's it's it's a it's a it's a reason thing where,

01:27:06

we we

we we

01:27:07

With exceptions for long term like, long, long international travel, we only cover coach travel for our employees. It's like, look, It's only a few hours. Like, it is a very bad use of company money for us to be buying business or first class for people

With exceptions for long term like, long, long international travel, we only cover coach travel for our employees. It's like, look, It's only a few hours. Like, it is a very bad use of company money for us to be buying business or first class for people

01:27:21

because we have so much travel at the company.

because we have so much travel at the company.

01:27:23

We could easily spend a very serious fraction of our of our, of our resources on just people traveling in slightly better seats.

We could easily spend a very serious fraction of our of our, of our resources on just people traveling in slightly better seats.

01:27:32

And so and it's especially, you know, especially bad when it's like, oh, am I really gonna pay you to, like, you know, fly business class for three hours to a place where you're then going to, like, sweated out in the desert for for a week. Like, you know, it's it's only, you know, it's so so you and your coach seats better than the desert. You and your wife or your girlfriend or whatever. If you're going to Europe, you're gonna fly coach, even when I use my own money, I fly coach. And people say, well, why don't you just fly first class? Why don't you fly business? And here's why, because I expect my employees to fly coach. And even, like, yes, I have a lot of money. But it's if I don't also do it, it feels like I'm out of touch or I don't know what it's like or know, oh, it's easy for you to say that we should fly coach because you don't have to do it because you happen to have a bunch of money. And so for for me, a lot of it is setting example. Like, look, it's not actually that bad. I am willing to do it even when I pay for my own travel, because that's I I think it's just not that bad. And so Don't you have, like, people who wanna, like, kill you or, like, hurt you. I mean, aren't you, like, I mean, like, like, you've got the whole anti trump crown of who sees you and they're like, go after stuff. And then now you're, like, dealing with Lockheed Martin stuff. Surely, they wanna, like, kneecap you. You you're got you're you're I don't know what you're staying so kind of fanatics. Yeah. You got Jason Calcanis because the guy kinda went you in a nugget. Like, something's gonna happen. You know what I mean? Like, surely, like, there's, like, some type of security risk also maybe you have life insurance or something like that. If they're gonna insure you, I'd be like, dog, you're doing you're you gotta have this security person with you or you gotta, like, have someone with you. Like, surely, there's some type of security risk where you gotta think, like, beyond just like,

And so and it's especially, you know, especially bad when it's like, oh, am I really gonna pay you to, like, you know, fly business class for three hours to a place where you're then going to, like, sweated out in the desert for for a week. Like, you know, it's it's only, you know, it's so so you and your coach seats better than the desert. You and your wife or your girlfriend or whatever. If you're going to Europe, you're gonna fly coach, even when I use my own money, I fly coach. And people say, well, why don't you just fly first class? Why don't you fly business? And here's why, because I expect my employees to fly coach. And even, like, yes, I have a lot of money. But it's if I don't also do it, it feels like I'm out of touch or I don't know what it's like or know, oh, it's easy for you to say that we should fly coach because you don't have to do it because you happen to have a bunch of money. And so for for me, a lot of it is setting example. Like, look, it's not actually that bad. I am willing to do it even when I pay for my own travel, because that's I I think it's just not that bad. And so Don't you have, like, people who wanna, like, kill you or, like, hurt you. I mean, aren't you, like, I mean, like, like, you've got the whole anti trump crown of who sees you and they're like, go after stuff. And then now you're, like, dealing with Lockheed Martin stuff. Surely, they wanna, like, kneecap you. You you're got you're you're I don't know what you're staying so kind of fanatics. Yeah. You got Jason Calcanis because the guy kinda went you in a nugget. Like, something's gonna happen. You know what I mean? Like, surely, like, there's, like, some type of security risk also maybe you have life insurance or something like that. If they're gonna insure you, I'd be like, dog, you're doing you're you gotta have this security person with you or you gotta, like, have someone with you. Like, surely, there's some type of security risk where you gotta think, like, beyond just like,

01:29:03

hey, guys, I'm in solitude with you on this flight. Like, I get it. Like,

hey, guys, I'm in solitude with you on this flight. Like, I get it. Like,

01:29:07

I mean, surely there's some type of like You're you're you're you're you're to you're you're totally right. And I I mean, it depends on the trip where the trip is and what I'm doing and Like, I I'm I I make sure to keep myself safe. And I probably don't wanna get into the specifics because, you know, like you said, there's people out there who who are who are who are not fans of me. And, like, you you've mentioned, you know, Jason Calicannas and the Trump people, but, like, what about the Mexican cartels that we've caused hundreds of millions of dollars in drug trade. What about, you know, all the people who have been foiled in attacks on US military forces because of our stuff And, you know, like, there's there's actually a long list of people who are more who are scarier than than Jason Calicannas if you can believe it.

I mean, surely there's some type of like You're you're you're you're you're to you're you're totally right. And I I mean, it depends on the trip where the trip is and what I'm doing and Like, I I'm I I make sure to keep myself safe. And I probably don't wanna get into the specifics because, you know, like you said, there's people out there who who are who are who are not fans of me. And, like, you you've mentioned, you know, Jason Calicannas and the Trump people, but, like, what about the Mexican cartels that we've caused hundreds of millions of dollars in drug trade. What about, you know, all the people who have been foiled in attacks on US military forces because of our stuff And, you know, like, there's there's actually a long list of people who are more who are scarier than than Jason Calicannas if you can believe it.

01:29:46

But, yeah, Look, you you you're right that to some degree, that that's a worry, but I also think that in general, if someone's gonna come to kill me, it's probably gonna be a place where they know I'm going to be. And there's There's there's actually much higher like, to me, the high risk place is actually not on a on a flight in the secure zone. Yeah. It's not on Southwest in the secure zone of an airport. Like, there there's actually it it's actually probably more likely to be the restaurants I go to too much. But I anyway, I guess I want to explain. That's why I do it. If if I'm gonna ask my employees to do it, I need to do it too, even when it's my own money, even when it's my own cost, because otherwise you are, like, bec you become an out. It's not just that I appear out of touch. I would literally be out of touch. And look, maybe one day coach gets so bad that I tell everyone, guys, you know what? I hear you. We're all going business now. But I I think I think today is not that bad. You're crazy.

But, yeah, Look, you you you're right that to some degree, that that's a worry, but I also think that in general, if someone's gonna come to kill me, it's probably gonna be a place where they know I'm going to be. And there's There's there's actually much higher like, to me, the high risk place is actually not on a on a flight in the secure zone. Yeah. It's not on Southwest in the secure zone of an airport. Like, there there's actually it it's actually probably more likely to be the restaurants I go to too much. But I anyway, I guess I want to explain. That's why I do it. If if I'm gonna ask my employees to do it, I need to do it too, even when it's my own money, even when it's my own cost, because otherwise you are, like, bec you become an out. It's not just that I appear out of touch. I would literally be out of touch. And look, maybe one day coach gets so bad that I tell everyone, guys, you know what? I hear you. We're all going business now. But I I think I think today is not that bad. You're crazy.

01:30:36

I have agreed with everything you've said, except for that. You are crazy.

I have agreed with everything you've said, except for that. You are crazy.

01:30:40

Yeah. No. I'm actually glad you said this because I was feeling like, man, this guy's great. He's funny. He's smart. He's just really big thinker.

Yeah. No. I'm actually glad you said this because I was feeling like, man, this guy's great. He's funny. He's smart. He's just really big thinker.

01:30:47

I'm glad you have something you're totally wrong about. It makes me feel so much better in this interview. That's a great service you did for everybody here by having this absolute nonsense policy for yourself. You know, like, if I go get you a if I'm the guy who flies to go get that billion dollar contract and I'd fly back you know, in the in the sea zone of Southwest,

I'm glad you have something you're totally wrong about. It makes me feel so much better in this interview. That's a great service you did for everybody here by having this absolute nonsense policy for yourself. You know, like, if I go get you a if I'm the guy who flies to go get that billion dollar contract and I'd fly back you know, in the in the sea zone of Southwest,

01:31:06

I'm rioting the next day at work. I'll tell you. I I love the I love the back of the plane on the window. Nobody nobody bothers you. You can get on. You can let everybody get off the plane before you do. You don't have to fight anybody. You just, you know, let everyone

I'm rioting the next day at work. I'll tell you. I I love the I love the back of the plane on the window. Nobody nobody bothers you. You can get on. You can let everybody get off the plane before you do. You don't have to fight anybody. You just, you know, let everyone

01:31:21

I gotta throw this in. My my grandpa was a pilot for United Airlines for, over forty years. And so I also grew up around commercial airlines. And so this might be another thing Like, to me, there is a certain romanticism

I gotta throw this in. My my grandpa was a pilot for United Airlines for, over forty years. And so I also grew up around commercial airlines. And so this might be another thing Like, to me, there is a certain romanticism

01:31:34

to, like, mass market, mass available air travel. Like, what an incredible thing, and we did it. America did it. We figured out how to make it economically viable, and we build everyone else's airplanes. Like, it it is an American thing. And so I I even when you're on everyone else's planes, They're mostly made by Americans, and the ones that are made by Europeans were made with American technology. So I I, Hey. Look. I I also like

to, like, mass market, mass available air travel. Like, what an incredible thing, and we did it. America did it. We figured out how to make it economically viable, and we build everyone else's airplanes. Like, it it is an American thing. And so I I even when you're on everyone else's planes, They're mostly made by Americans, and the ones that are made by Europeans were made with American technology. So I I, Hey. Look. I I also like

01:31:58

I think feet are gross. You're into coach. I think coach is gross. Well, yeah, to each their own. And I think we'll leave it at that and agree to disagree. Each their own.

I think feet are gross. You're into coach. I think coach is gross. Well, yeah, to each their own. And I think we'll leave it at that and agree to disagree. Each their own.

01:32:06

No. Look. I, I disagree with that opinion, but I respect it like hell, and I respect you. You're you're the best man. I would love for you to come on if you want, like, in a few weeks, a few months, whenever, and talk some more about ideas, you're, I'm a fan of yours. So this feels really cool that you're here. Maybe we Thank you. I appreciate that. This been a lot of fun. We covered some good ground today. Yes. And maybe we've suckered you in to becoming friends with us. So if you ever want, you could d s on DMS on Twitter. We can have Hobies. Who knows? I don't know. Maybe we'll invite each other over and hang out. You could show us a thing or two. I don't know. We'll see what happens, but, this has been awesome. Come on. Coming coming coming down anytime. Alright. Sweet. Thank you so much. Alright. See you guys later.

No. Look. I, I disagree with that opinion, but I respect it like hell, and I respect you. You're you're the best man. I would love for you to come on if you want, like, in a few weeks, a few months, whenever, and talk some more about ideas, you're, I'm a fan of yours. So this feels really cool that you're here. Maybe we Thank you. I appreciate that. This been a lot of fun. We covered some good ground today. Yes. And maybe we've suckered you in to becoming friends with us. So if you ever want, you could d s on DMS on Twitter. We can have Hobies. Who knows? I don't know. Maybe we'll invite each other over and hang out. You could show us a thing or two. I don't know. We'll see what happens, but, this has been awesome. Come on. Coming coming coming down anytime. Alright. Sweet. Thank you so much. Alright. See you guys later.

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