00:00

All the work we do at TPB is oriented around how do we change systems of production on planet earth so that, we can make things using less energy, less land, less all resources.

All the work we do at TPB is oriented around how do we change systems of production on planet earth so that, we can make things using less energy, less land, less all resources.

00:10

I I'm a big believer that sustainability in the twenty first century does not arise from convincing consumers to consume less. I think sustainability arises from building technology based solutions that let consumers consume more and dropping the price and dropping the environmental impact. And that's what technology allows us to do. So if you go back to the industrial revolutions, you know, of the nineteenth and twentieth century, we built fact Right? We we put all this technology in a big machine and a big facility and we used it to make stuff over and over again and that dropped the price for consumers because we automated it in a big factory. Turns out that the technology of that factory as all technology does

I I'm a big believer that sustainability in the twenty first century does not arise from convincing consumers to consume less. I think sustainability arises from building technology based solutions that let consumers consume more and dropping the price and dropping the environmental impact. And that's what technology allows us to do. So if you go back to the industrial revolutions, you know, of the nineteenth and twentieth century, we built fact Right? We we put all this technology in a big machine and a big facility and we used it to make stuff over and over again and that dropped the price for consumers because we automated it in a big factory. Turns out that the technology of that factory as all technology does

00:48

shrinks

shrinks

00:49

gets faster, gets cheaper, gets better.

gets faster, gets cheaper, gets better.

00:59

Let me brag about you for a second because you're not a very

Let me brag about you for a second because you're not a very

01:02

You're a very humble guy. You're not a very brag worthy guy.

You're a very humble guy. You're not a very brag worthy guy.

01:05

When I first started hearing you talk, which is not on the all in podcast, I went on YouTube, and I heard you give a talk back when you were doing climate corporation. And I remember thinking this guy's pretty smart. You're giving a talk at some school. I don't know what it was. And I started googling you then and saw, wow, this guy's actually he did that, and then he did some impressive stuff since then. So let me just brag on you for a second. So you were

When I first started hearing you talk, which is not on the all in podcast, I went on YouTube, and I heard you give a talk back when you were doing climate corporation. And I remember thinking this guy's pretty smart. You're giving a talk at some school. I don't know what it was. And I started googling you then and saw, wow, this guy's actually he did that, and then he did some impressive stuff since then. So let me just brag on you for a second. So you were

01:26

at Google two thousand four, two thousand six, some some range like that. So

at Google two thousand four, two thousand six, some some range like that. So

01:31

fairly early at Google. Like, I think that's, like, around the IPO time. That's just post IPO. Is that right?

fairly early at Google. Like, I think that's, like, around the IPO time. That's just post IPO. Is that right?

01:37

I joined probably seven months before the IPO.

I joined probably seven months before the IPO.

01:41

So, yeah, we were we were working on the IPO. It just started working on the IPO joined. And then,

So, yeah, we were we were working on the IPO. It just started working on the IPO joined. And then,

01:46

do you do climate corporations sell that for like a billion dollars to Monsanto? You either do Metro Mile, which is a pretty cool insurance company that spacked. And then I think ultimately ended up selling

do you do climate corporations sell that for like a billion dollars to Monsanto? You either do Metro Mile, which is a pretty cool insurance company that spacked. And then I think ultimately ended up selling

01:57

for a little bit less than it's back for to lemonade. And then,

for a little bit less than it's back for to lemonade. And then,

02:01

you have this thing called TPP. So the the production board. And in that, you're basically what do you call it? A studio? Or, what do you call kind of keyboard? Well, yeah, we're we're technically a holding company and our, you know, and we're a foundry. So we spend time kind of doing r and d and and re search and and founding or building businesses. So we kinda call it a foundry.

you have this thing called TPP. So the the production board. And in that, you're basically what do you call it? A studio? Or, what do you call kind of keyboard? Well, yeah, we're we're technically a holding company and our, you know, and we're a foundry. So we spend time kind of doing r and d and and re search and and founding or building businesses. So we kinda call it a foundry.

02:21

And I feel like people know you know. We do we do some investing as well, but really our focus is on foundry work.

And I feel like people know you know. We do we do some investing as well, but really our focus is on foundry work.

02:27

Wanna start with this. You

Wanna start with this. You

02:29

are known for, you know, being a sort of a a scientist or a science guy, but I looked at your LinkedIn and your first job was investment banker. So where did How did you go from investment banker to, as you're called on the Allenpod, the Sultan of Science?

are known for, you know, being a sort of a a scientist or a science guy, but I looked at your LinkedIn and your first job was investment banker. So where did How did you go from investment banker to, as you're called on the Allenpod, the Sultan of Science?

02:42

Well, I went to school

Well, I went to school

02:44

at UC Berkeley

at UC Berkeley

02:45

My major was astrophysics.

My major was astrophysics.

02:47

I spent some time as an intern at the Lawrence Berkeley NationalLab,

I spent some time as an intern at the Lawrence Berkeley NationalLab,

02:52

which is a department of energy physics lab up the hill from from UC Berkeley, and I spent,

which is a department of energy physics lab up the hill from from UC Berkeley, and I spent,

02:58

you know, a lot of time doing mathematical modeling of

you know, a lot of time doing mathematical modeling of

03:02

stuff in a basement

stuff in a basement

03:03

and generally found it to be kinda just pretty discouraging

and generally found it to be kinda just pretty discouraging

03:06

in the sense that, like, you could spend years working on a project that never sees the light of day.

in the sense that, like, you could spend years working on a project that never sees the light of day.

03:11

At the same time that I was at school, the dot com bubble was kind of, you know, blowing up all around me. I mean, there was even a kid in my dorm

At the same time that I was at school, the dot com bubble was kind of, you know, blowing up all around me. I mean, there was even a kid in my dorm

03:19

who started a company selling DVDs online and sold the business for a million bucks and that was such an amazing thing to happen. You know, I was mostly making money by playing poker and working you know, jobs around school and getting paid for my internship and stuff.

who started a company selling DVDs online and sold the business for a million bucks and that was such an amazing thing to happen. You know, I was mostly making money by playing poker and working you know, jobs around school and getting paid for my internship and stuff.

03:33

So, you know, it it was extraordinary kinda seeing just in the Bay Area of the world changing because of the internet.

So, you know, it it was extraordinary kinda seeing just in the Bay Area of the world changing because of the internet.

03:39

So I got really kind of inclined and interested in

So I got really kind of inclined and interested in

03:43

not going to grad school and and really gonna go work in Silicon Valley. So I, you know, I applied for a bunch of investment banking that was kind of the the hot job to get out of school where I could focus on the tech industry and learn about it.

not going to grad school and and really gonna go work in Silicon Valley. So I, you know, I applied for a bunch of investment banking that was kind of the the hot job to get out of school where I could focus on the tech industry and learn about it.

03:55

And, you know, I guess I had never taken a finance accounting business class. And so I guess my poker experience paid off because that's how I I put that on my resume. I got a bunch of interviews and, you know, gosh, ended up getting a job working in a technology and mess banks are focused on the tech industry. And so I got to work with lots of tech companies for a two year analyst program while I was there and learned about business and finance and so on.

And, you know, I guess I had never taken a finance accounting business class. And so I guess my poker experience paid off because that's how I I put that on my resume. I got a bunch of interviews and, you know, gosh, ended up getting a job working in a technology and mess banks are focused on the tech industry. And so I got to work with lots of tech companies for a two year analyst program while I was there and learned about business and finance and so on.

04:17

Got it. So so that that was kinda my first foray,

Got it. So so that that was kinda my first foray,

04:20

you know, into the world of business. I tried to start a business when I was in college.

you know, into the world of business. I tried to start a business when I was in college.

04:25

Never really talked this publicly,

Never really talked this publicly,

04:27

raised some money from some family members, some friends of the family,

raised some money from some family members, some friends of the family,

04:32

but never really did anything with it, never really got off the the ground. It was,

but never really did anything with it, never really got off the the ground. It was,

04:36

The idea was to let you buy all of your telecommunication

The idea was to let you buy all of your telecommunication

04:39

services on a website. So, you're, you know, everything from your cell phone bill to your you know, your long distance provider, which was kind of important at the time and so on. And what what did you get wrong with that? Because that's actually not a bad idea especially during that time. Was I don't think it was probably the idea. You just did you not know because I still have I still have the business plan. I keep it in my office. I printed it up, like, from nineteen ninety nine thousand.

services on a website. So, you're, you know, everything from your cell phone bill to your you know, your long distance provider, which was kind of important at the time and so on. And what what did you get wrong with that? Because that's actually not a bad idea especially during that time. Was I don't think it was probably the idea. You just did you not know because I still have I still have the business plan. I keep it in my office. I printed it up, like, from nineteen ninety nine thousand.

05:01

As a as a reminder or what? Yeah. As a reminder, it was,

As a as a reminder or what? Yeah. As a reminder, it was,

05:05

originally called telecom dot com

originally called telecom dot com

05:08

I

I

05:10

renamed it in phone services and I registered it. I set up a Wells Fargo account.

renamed it in phone services and I registered it. I set up a Wells Fargo account.

05:17

There was a whole,

There was a whole,

05:19

experience of starting a business.

experience of starting a business.

05:23

And yeah, I mean, ultimately I kinda got caught up in

And yeah, I mean, ultimately I kinda got caught up in

05:26

trying to get a job out of school and,

trying to get a job out of school and,

05:30

and, you know, transition to

and, you know, transition to

05:32

to focus on on, you know, what's next in my life. And then, you know, before I joined Google, I started another business, which was kind of like a research Q and A site online called kedanga, k a d a n g a kedanga dot com. I basically taught myself like,

to focus on on, you know, what's next in my life. And then, you know, before I joined Google, I started another business, which was kind of like a research Q and A site online called kedanga, k a d a n g a kedanga dot com. I basically taught myself like,

05:48

PHP

PHP

05:49

and JavaScript and HTML and CSS and CSS and I programmed the whole site myself

and JavaScript and HTML and CSS and CSS and I programmed the whole site myself

05:54

and,

and,

05:55

and,

and,

05:56

MySQL and I basically

MySQL and I basically

05:59

set up my own server and register or the domain and set up bank accounts, and it actually made money. And so, you know, I advertised on AdWords and I got users to come to the website and ask questions and get answers and they'd pay for the the answers.

set up my own server and register or the domain and set up bank accounts, and it actually made money. And so, you know, I advertised on AdWords and I got users to come to the website and ask questions and get answers and they'd pay for the the answers.

06:13

And so that actually helped me ultimately get my job at Google because I've had all this experience. You know, coding on my own till, like, five in the morning and then going to work at seven AM. And so, like, building this service and building this whole site, it actually Google had a service at the time called, Google Research or something. I forgot what it was called, but it was very similar to this. And so I got the job at Google, I think, in part because of that experience.

And so that actually helped me ultimately get my job at Google because I've had all this experience. You know, coding on my own till, like, five in the morning and then going to work at seven AM. And so, like, building this service and building this whole site, it actually Google had a service at the time called, Google Research or something. I forgot what it was called, but it was very similar to this. And so I got the job at Google, I think, in part because of that experience.

06:34

So when you were doing that, you were

So when you were doing that, you were

06:37

like, okay. Listen, today, I think you've built companies. I'm just gonna use round numbers.

like, okay. Listen, today, I think you've built companies. I'm just gonna use round numbers.

06:41

You know, you can correct me if I'm way off, but You've built companies now that I think an aggregate have are worth more than two and a half billion dollars. Now if if I went and I told you when you were building Cadanga or your, you know, you're in college and I said, you know, hey, that could that's something that could happen. Would you have been, like, was that even an ambition of yours? Were you even would you have been shocked that that's even possible? Or were you, Oh, it all worked. My plan could have worked if I had told you that that's how it played out.

You know, you can correct me if I'm way off, but You've built companies now that I think an aggregate have are worth more than two and a half billion dollars. Now if if I went and I told you when you were building Cadanga or your, you know, you're in college and I said, you know, hey, that could that's something that could happen. Would you have been, like, was that even an ambition of yours? Were you even would you have been shocked that that's even possible? Or were you, Oh, it all worked. My plan could have worked if I had told you that that's how it played out.

07:10

No, I don't think I would have thought about it in framework probably would have been disappointed.

No, I don't think I would have thought about it in framework probably would have been disappointed.

07:15

If I think about it.

If I think about it.

07:18

I still am generally. I mean, I I guess, you know, maybe ambition

I still am generally. I mean, I I guess, you know, maybe ambition

07:23

is,

is,

07:24

you know, an expectations I've set for myself probably

you know, an expectations I've set for myself probably

07:27

greater than,

greater than,

07:29

than than what I've experienced. But,

than than what I've experienced. But,

07:31

I would say that, you know, my my intention wasn't part of Hang on that for a second. So you're saying you're a college kid and you had expectations of yourself

I would say that, you know, my my intention wasn't part of Hang on that for a second. So you're saying you're a college kid and you had expectations of yourself

07:39

that grand do you remember kind of what you were thinking back then?

that grand do you remember kind of what you were thinking back then?

07:44

Not specifically. I mean, I just feel like when you're young, you have kind of unbounded ambition mean, you don't know the realities of,

Not specifically. I mean, I just feel like when you're young, you have kind of unbounded ambition mean, you don't know the realities of,

07:50

you know, when you build stuff and you face challenges and you face hiccups and you know, everything from team to technology to markets and all the issues that arise,

you know, when you build stuff and you face challenges and you face hiccups and you know, everything from team to technology to markets and all the issues that arise,

07:59

as you navigate your way through complexity and uncertainty,

as you navigate your way through complexity and uncertainty,

08:02

you're not even the sense that like the whole world can and should be different. We should change the whole world and let's go fix it and make it different, make it better. And, you know, that blind optimism is where a lot of energy comes from that I think drives great entrepreneurial success stories. Ultimately, you know, there's friction and rubber hits the road and

you're not even the sense that like the whole world can and should be different. We should change the whole world and let's go fix it and make it different, make it better. And, you know, that blind optimism is where a lot of energy comes from that I think drives great entrepreneurial success stories. Ultimately, you know, there's friction and rubber hits the road and

08:21

you know, in retrospect, I think a lot of what's gone on in my life and my career is probably

you know, in retrospect, I think a lot of what's gone on in my life and my career is probably

08:26

understandable,

understandable,

08:28

in hindsight, but you know, blind ambition gives you unlimited,

in hindsight, but you know, blind ambition gives you unlimited,

08:32

vision. And I think,

vision. And I think,

08:34

you know, if if you're not,

you know, if if you're not,

08:37

If you're not challenged along the way, you know, that that that can and should persist.

If you're not challenged along the way, you know, that that that can and should persist.

08:42

You know, but I would say that my my orientation was never about starting a bunch of companies making a bunch of money. It was,

You know, but I would say that my my orientation was never about starting a bunch of companies making a bunch of money. It was,

08:48

you know, much more about kind of impact. And,

you know, much more about kind of impact. And,

08:51

and so, you know, and solving big problems and having great breakthroughs and seeing those breakthroughs really changed the world. And that's still I think really core to to my sense of of energy and things that I do. And when you were at Google,

and so, you know, and solving big problems and having great breakthroughs and seeing those breakthroughs really changed the world. And that's still I think really core to to my sense of of energy and things that I do. And when you were at Google,

09:04

at a time when Google was very ambitious.

at a time when Google was very ambitious.

09:07

And,

And,

09:08

I think I've read or heard basically, like, Larry Paige is kind of a fan of yours. I think he's invested in TPB. And it sounds like you were there in, you were doing corp dev there. So so you were doing a kind of different role.

I think I've read or heard basically, like, Larry Paige is kind of a fan of yours. I think he's invested in TPB. And it sounds like you were there in, you were doing corp dev there. So so you were doing a kind of different role.

09:19

What was give me a Google story. What was it like at that time? What were what was it like around those founders?

What was give me a Google story. What was it like at that time? What were what was it like around those founders?

09:24

Give me a sort of a a story around ambition or or your time at Google. Well,

Give me a sort of a a story around ambition or or your time at Google. Well,

09:29

so I joined Google.

so I joined Google.

09:31

There was, just under a thousand people, I believe. And,

There was, just under a thousand people, I believe. And,

09:35

you know, we all kinda work pretty close together. There was like two buildings or three buildings,

you know, we all kinda work pretty close together. There was like two buildings or three buildings,

09:40

that that were the main buildings at campus there at sixteen hundred amphitheatre.

that that were the main buildings at campus there at sixteen hundred amphitheatre.

09:45

And

And

09:47

You know, so

You know, so

09:48

when I joined,

when I joined,

09:50

there was three of us that started this corporate development group, which was really like what's the strategy and things we can acquire invest in and grow the business

there was three of us that started this corporate development group, which was really like what's the strategy and things we can acquire invest in and grow the business

09:57

and had pretty kind of free reign to to look at things and I really focused on kind of the advertiser

and had pretty kind of free reign to to look at things and I really focused on kind of the advertiser

10:02

or business side of Google. So I wasn't interested in consumer products. I was more interested in like what's our business.

or business side of Google. So I wasn't interested in consumer products. I was more interested in like what's our business.

10:09

And so you know, in that context, I worked on all sorts of, ideas of like how do we take what we offer advertisers,

And so you know, in that context, I worked on all sorts of, ideas of like how do we take what we offer advertisers,

10:16

which at the time was really just AdWords. And how do we think about other media we can make advertising

which at the time was really just AdWords. And how do we think about other media we can make advertising

10:21

available to those advertisers? So, you know, can we do print ads? Can we do radio ads? Can we do TV ads? Can our advertisers use AdWords as an interface to access media across all these different properties and channels? So I did a few acquisitions and found a few companies. One was called D Mark that we turned into kind of this radio advertising business. So you could go to AdWords and click on audio ads and create an audio ad. And then publish it to actual radio stations, then it would play in stream and radio stations. And you could see the impressions and all this stuff. That's that's not a thing now. Right? That didn't that didn't end up becoming part of that. It stayed for a long time. There ended up being a really nasty lawsuit

available to those advertisers? So, you know, can we do print ads? Can we do radio ads? Can we do TV ads? Can our advertisers use AdWords as an interface to access media across all these different properties and channels? So I did a few acquisitions and found a few companies. One was called D Mark that we turned into kind of this radio advertising business. So you could go to AdWords and click on audio ads and create an audio ad. And then publish it to actual radio stations, then it would play in stream and radio stations. And you could see the impressions and all this stuff. That's that's not a thing now. Right? That didn't that didn't end up becoming part of that. It stayed for a long time. There ended up being a really nasty lawsuit

10:58

with the founders and a very difficult

with the founders and a very difficult

11:01

set of circumstances that arose after the acquisition. I mean, I'll tell you,

set of circumstances that arose after the acquisition. I mean, I'll tell you,

11:05

this story now given how many years it's been I think that was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years ago. Holy shit, seventeen years ago at this point.

this story now given how many years it's been I think that was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years ago. Holy shit, seventeen years ago at this point.

11:13

But, you know, I had real issues with negotiating with the founders and doing the transaction.

But, you know, I had real issues with negotiating with the founders and doing the transaction.

11:18

And, you know, we thought it was such a great plug and play for Google. These guys went out and all djs and radio stations

And, you know, we thought it was such a great plug and play for Google. These guys went out and all djs and radio stations

11:26

by these servers that they put into the, the radio station and they and they put the MP three files of the ads on the servers at midnight every night. And then when the DJ says, okay, time for ready for ads, they press the play button and starts playing the ads off the server. So what these guys did is they bought the company that has all those servers for like four million dollars connected it to the internet. And they set it up so that advertisers could remotely create dynamic content and fill in the unsold ad spots on that server every night at midnight. And so they were buying what's called remnant inventory

by these servers that they put into the, the radio station and they and they put the MP three files of the ads on the servers at midnight every night. And then when the DJ says, okay, time for ready for ads, they press the play button and starts playing the ads off the server. So what these guys did is they bought the company that has all those servers for like four million dollars connected it to the internet. And they set it up so that advertisers could remotely create dynamic content and fill in the unsold ad spots on that server every night at midnight. And so they were buying what's called remnant inventory

11:54

and making money on it. And so it was brilliant, but for the four million dollar acquisition and not a lot of technology development thereafter, they were trying to sell the business to us for a hundred million dollars. So they thought it was worth a billion. I mean, the whole thing was crazy how we negotiated the deal. So it ended up being like, effectively a fifty million dollar or seventy five seventy two million dollar upfront cash payment, a fifty million dollar

and making money on it. And so it was brilliant, but for the four million dollar acquisition and not a lot of technology development thereafter, they were trying to sell the business to us for a hundred million dollars. So they thought it was worth a billion. I mean, the whole thing was crazy how we negotiated the deal. So it ended up being like, effectively a fifty million dollar or seventy five seventy two million dollar upfront cash payment, a fifty million dollar

12:16

milestone payment if if they hit a bunch of technical milestone

milestone payment if if they hit a bunch of technical milestone

12:19

and then up to one point two billion dollars in earnouts based on the advertising revenue generated from all these stations. And so that earn out structure was the only way I could really bridge the gap on the deal I had to go talk to Google's board about it. We eventually got them to sign off on it. And the whole thing ended up being like a really ugly,

and then up to one point two billion dollars in earnouts based on the advertising revenue generated from all these stations. And so that earn out structure was the only way I could really bridge the gap on the deal I had to go talk to Google's board about it. We eventually got them to sign off on it. And the whole thing ended up being like a really ugly,

12:36

negotiation

negotiation

12:37

I didn't wanna do the deal. And I told Eric Schmidt. I'm like, look, I don't think we should do this deal. I don't think these guys are gonna work out for us. I think it's gonna be ugly. And Eric said we have to be in radio to sixty billion dollar market, push the whole thing through despite my push against it. We did the deal.

I didn't wanna do the deal. And I told Eric Schmidt. I'm like, look, I don't think we should do this deal. I don't think these guys are gonna work out for us. I think it's gonna be ugly. And Eric said we have to be in radio to sixty billion dollar market, push the whole thing through despite my push against it. We did the deal.

12:53

And, sure enough, we ended up in this nasty lawsuit that lasted for years. I wasn't around for all that, but,

And, sure enough, we ended up in this nasty lawsuit that lasted for years. I wasn't around for all that, but,

12:59

you know, I think eventually it all went away and and audio ads kinda died down. So that was the sort of stuff. I also worked on Google analytics. So I pitched Larry and Sergey early on on the idea of like, look, our advertisers should be able to have analytics on their web pages to see you know, how people are converting and why and why not. We didn't have have a conversion tracker at the time or anything. So,

you know, I think eventually it all went away and and audio ads kinda died down. So that was the sort of stuff. I also worked on Google analytics. So I pitched Larry and Sergey early on on the idea of like, look, our advertisers should be able to have analytics on their web pages to see you know, how people are converting and why and why not. We didn't have have a conversion tracker at the time or anything. So,

13:18

you know, Tell me what that means. So I pitched Larry and Sergei. So, like, you know, Larry Sergei, are the founders of Google. They are So I I I I work I work with an amazing person named Megan Smith. She's really well known in Silicon Valley. She was Obama CTO.

you know, Tell me what that means. So I pitched Larry and Sergei. So, like, you know, Larry Sergei, are the founders of Google. They are So I I I I work I work with an amazing person named Megan Smith. She's really well known in Silicon Valley. She was Obama CTO.

13:31

She's, she she's an incredible personality and I've toured the force. And Megan was really my mentor and kinda showed me how I can just walk into Larry at Sergei's office and walk in Eric's office. She's like, let's go talk to him about this. And I believe how they're about it. She's like, let's go see what Eric thinks. And she dragged me over to Eric's office and he'd be like sitting there on his computer to emails and she'd like barge in and be like David's got this idea. Let's talk about it and then like sit down and you know, like And so she really kind of showed me that we can and should have this kind of dialogue with these execs because our job was to really help push and think about things that we can take Google, you know, what direction we can take Google.

She's, she she's an incredible personality and I've toured the force. And Megan was really my mentor and kinda showed me how I can just walk into Larry at Sergei's office and walk in Eric's office. She's like, let's go talk to him about this. And I believe how they're about it. She's like, let's go see what Eric thinks. And she dragged me over to Eric's office and he'd be like sitting there on his computer to emails and she'd like barge in and be like David's got this idea. Let's talk about it and then like sit down and you know, like And so she really kind of showed me that we can and should have this kind of dialogue with these execs because our job was to really help push and think about things that we can take Google, you know, what direction we can take Google.

14:05

And so, you know, I really,

And so, you know, I really,

14:07

had, I think, great mentorship there. And so I, you know, was in a meeting with Larry and Sergei saying like, I think we should be in analytics

had, I think, great mentorship there. And so I, you know, was in a meeting with Larry and Sergei saying like, I think we should be in analytics

14:14

and we should offer advertisers the ability to see stuff and I and I met Wesley Chan

and we should offer advertisers the ability to see stuff and I and I met Wesley Chan

14:19

who was a product manager at the time. And so Wesley and I,

who was a product manager at the time. And so Wesley and I,

14:24

kind of started working together after that because the first thing Larry and Sergei said to me was that's evil. Their party cookies are evil. We don't wanna track users across different web pages. And, you know, because then they'll know that we're tracking them. And so it was fairly prescient at the time that Larry and Sergei saw that this might be kind of an evil or viewed evenly by kind of consumers down the road and they were absolutely right. I mean, that's what's going on in the EU and and with Apple and Facebook and all the the cookie tracking and so on that that's being kind of taken apart right now.

kind of started working together after that because the first thing Larry and Sergei said to me was that's evil. Their party cookies are evil. We don't wanna track users across different web pages. And, you know, because then they'll know that we're tracking them. And so it was fairly prescient at the time that Larry and Sergei saw that this might be kind of an evil or viewed evenly by kind of consumers down the road and they were absolutely right. I mean, that's what's going on in the EU and and with Apple and Facebook and all the the cookie tracking and so on that that's being kind of taken apart right now.

14:52

But we showed them that like, look, if if an advertiser can get analytics, they can see an incredible improvement in conversion efficiency

But we showed them that like, look, if if an advertiser can get analytics, they can see an incredible improvement in conversion efficiency

14:59

which means that the user is having a better experience on the web page. So rather than the user getting frustrated and leaving the website wasting their time, If the user is happy, the user will buy more. They will convert better and the internet is a better place. One of our guiding principles at AdWords was like Our advertisements should be so good and the and the advertiser's website should be so good that a hundred percent of the time when people are looking at search results, they click on the first ad. And then a hundred percent of the time, they don't come back. So the bounce back rate is zero. And that shows you that you've shown the perfect ad that's even better than the the organic search results

which means that the user is having a better experience on the web page. So rather than the user getting frustrated and leaving the website wasting their time, If the user is happy, the user will buy more. They will convert better and the internet is a better place. One of our guiding principles at AdWords was like Our advertisements should be so good and the and the advertiser's website should be so good that a hundred percent of the time when people are looking at search results, they click on the first ad. And then a hundred percent of the time, they don't come back. So the bounce back rate is zero. And that shows you that you've shown the perfect ad that's even better than the the organic search results

15:32

and it's such a good result that the consumer stays there all the way and never comes back and searches again. So that's kind of the guiding principle. So everything is all about how do you improve the quality of the ads? How do you improve the user's experience when they go to the advertiser site? And how do you get the advertiser to pay for that value?

and it's such a good result that the consumer stays there all the way and never comes back and searches again. So that's kind of the guiding principle. So everything is all about how do you improve the quality of the ads? How do you improve the user's experience when they go to the advertiser site? And how do you get the advertiser to pay for that value?

15:48

And so analytics ultimately turned into, you know, we we found company called Urchin. I took Wesley to SES search engine strategies. We walked around. We met a bunch of analytics companies. We met had four of them come in and talk to us. And we picked Urton and convinced them to to join convince Larry and Sergei to do the deal. Within a year, I think we had shown

And so analytics ultimately turned into, you know, we we found company called Urchin. I took Wesley to SES search engine strategies. We walked around. We met a bunch of analytics companies. We met had four of them come in and talk to us. And we picked Urton and convinced them to to join convince Larry and Sergei to do the deal. Within a year, I think we had shown

16:07

through Halvarian, who was our chief economist, we had demonstrated that Google Analytics increased AdWords revenue by half a billion dollars.

through Halvarian, who was our chief economist, we had demonstrated that Google Analytics increased AdWords revenue by half a billion dollars.

16:13

Because it it's so many advertisers were using it to prove their websites and make the conversions better that they were spending more on AdWords and so you could kind of economically show the benefit of analytics. And that was like a twenty five million dollar acquisition.

Because it it's so many advertisers were using it to prove their websites and make the conversions better that they were spending more on AdWords and so you could kind of economically show the benefit of analytics. And that was like a twenty five million dollar acquisition.

16:26

Turned into a great product. I mean, I don't know any web pages that don't have, you know, Google analytics on them. You're you're like, where's my bonus?

Turned into a great product. I mean, I don't know any web pages that don't have, you know, Google analytics on them. You're you're like, where's my bonus?

16:34

It was all good.

It was all good.

16:36

Yeah. I mean, if you could if you could show that, alright, I'm buying a visitor, it takes me it cost me a dollar to get the click, but now that I can improve my funnel so that that customer's worth more I can convert more of those customers, then I'll spend more. Right? I that that takes a lot of sense. And the customer's happier because people are going to a web page that gets them what they want as opposed to going to a web page and getting lost in the content, not clicking through and buying. Dead in. So and my last Google question, you know, when we got acquired, I got acquired by Twitch, which is like a part of Amazon,

Yeah. I mean, if you could if you could show that, alright, I'm buying a visitor, it takes me it cost me a dollar to get the click, but now that I can improve my funnel so that that customer's worth more I can convert more of those customers, then I'll spend more. Right? I that that takes a lot of sense. And the customer's happier because people are going to a web page that gets them what they want as opposed to going to a web page and getting lost in the content, not clicking through and buying. Dead in. So and my last Google question, you know, when we got acquired, I got acquired by Twitch, which is like a part of Amazon,

17:04

I remember, like, the first or second meeting where it's, like, you know, all the kinda execs in a room. And, as a startup founder, I remember

I remember, like, the first or second meeting where it's, like, you know, all the kinda execs in a room. And, as a startup founder, I remember

17:12

always feeling

always feeling

17:13

a little bit, not like imposter syndrome, but sort of always curious. Like, this is how I lead the company. I have no idea how anyone else it, right? Even my founder friends, I don't actually get to see them in meetings. So I really had no idea what they were doing. And my first meeting at Twitch, I remember looking at Emmett who's somebody I really respect, who's kind of my boss, he's the original founder, and he was sitting there and he and, like, there's twenty people in the room, and somebody presents, like, the six page paper.

a little bit, not like imposter syndrome, but sort of always curious. Like, this is how I lead the company. I have no idea how anyone else it, right? Even my founder friends, I don't actually get to see them in meetings. So I really had no idea what they were doing. And my first meeting at Twitch, I remember looking at Emmett who's somebody I really respect, who's kind of my boss, he's the original founder, and he was sitting there and he and, like, there's twenty people in the room, and somebody presents, like, the six page paper.

17:38

And I remember,

And I remember,

17:40

he was, like, done reading it in, like, half the time of anybody else, and then he had, like, scribble down some questions on it. And then the first question he asked, like, cut straight to the heart of a thing. And I remember just thinking, oh, this this is what it would be like if my brain was twice the size. Like, oh, I could read twice as fast. I could get to the heart of the issue, you know, twice as fast. And I was just so impressed by him. You know, I think that great great leaders in some ways almost feel like aliens. They they sort of can they just have some superpowers that that others don't. And, what was it like with the Google founders? Do you, like, Were they just normal people to you, or did you notice any special traits or sort of abilities that impressed you at the time or made an impression on you? No. I mean, look,

he was, like, done reading it in, like, half the time of anybody else, and then he had, like, scribble down some questions on it. And then the first question he asked, like, cut straight to the heart of a thing. And I remember just thinking, oh, this this is what it would be like if my brain was twice the size. Like, oh, I could read twice as fast. I could get to the heart of the issue, you know, twice as fast. And I was just so impressed by him. You know, I think that great great leaders in some ways almost feel like aliens. They they sort of can they just have some superpowers that that others don't. And, what was it like with the Google founders? Do you, like, Were they just normal people to you, or did you notice any special traits or sort of abilities that impressed you at the time or made an impression on you? No. I mean, look,

18:19

You know, the culture is set at the top and

You know, the culture is set at the top and

18:22

the team that Larry and Sergei built around them,

the team that Larry and Sergei built around them,

18:25

you know, remain some of the most important and impactful people in Silicon Valley.

you know, remain some of the most important and impactful people in Silicon Valley.

18:31

You know, Susan Wachiki,

You know, Susan Wachiki,

18:32

Salar Kamangar,

Salar Kamangar,

18:35

Orzhotel. Oz is still SVP of engineering there. He built all of the data center infrastructure, which by the way, I don't think a lot of people realize

Orzhotel. Oz is still SVP of engineering there. He built all of the data center infrastructure, which by the way, I don't think a lot of people realize

18:43

is probably the core advantage of Google. Yep. Or was originally, like, tell me about this. My my co founder who's super technical at my passcode, but he used it today that he goes, people don't ever talk about this, but it was Google's server architecture or their choices

is probably the core advantage of Google. Yep. Or was originally, like, tell me about this. My my co founder who's super technical at my passcode, but he used it today that he goes, people don't ever talk about this, but it was Google's server architecture or their choices

18:57

that, like, allowed them to win. What did that mean? See, I never got his answer. Yeah. So so so if you go back to nineteen ninety nine, nineteen ninety eight. Right. In order to search the web, you have to have what are called web crawlers. So these are servers that are going out and scanning all the web pages on the internet. And then indexing servers and then your web servers which are, you know, your indexing servers take all that data and classify and organize it and figure out what, you know, what what's the search term that each web page and represent. And then fi and and what's the ranking that would that would show up? And then finally is these web servers, which is the the website

that, like, allowed them to win. What did that mean? See, I never got his answer. Yeah. So so so if you go back to nineteen ninety nine, nineteen ninety eight. Right. In order to search the web, you have to have what are called web crawlers. So these are servers that are going out and scanning all the web pages on the internet. And then indexing servers and then your web servers which are, you know, your indexing servers take all that data and classify and organize it and figure out what, you know, what what's the search term that each web page and represent. And then fi and and what's the ranking that would that would show up? And then finally is these web servers, which is the the website

19:28

you know, serving, servers. So when you go to Google dot com and do a search.

you know, serving, servers. So when you go to Google dot com and do a search.

19:32

And so, you know, in order to search the web extensively and to have a high refresh rate, so how much of the web can you search You have to have more servers. In order to search it more frequently, you have to have more servers.

And so, you know, in order to search the web extensively and to have a high refresh rate, so how much of the web can you search You have to have more servers. In order to search it more frequently, you have to have more servers.

19:42

So at the time, everyone was using kind of Oracle servers that cost three thousand bucks.

So at the time, everyone was using kind of Oracle servers that cost three thousand bucks.

19:47

And they had a pretty case and they had purple on them and they used a lot of power and they looked really nice and they would last forever.

And they had a pretty case and they had purple on them and they used a lot of power and they looked really nice and they would last forever.

19:53

You know, all this kind of nonsense claims.

You know, all this kind of nonsense claims.

19:55

And so Google set out to basically build a really cheap web server or really cheap web crawling server and indexing servers. They built their own servers by taking commodity hardware and basically breadboarding this thing. So taking super cheap ram, super cheap hard drives, jamming them all on,

And so Google set out to basically build a really cheap web server or really cheap web crawling server and indexing servers. They built their own servers by taking commodity hardware and basically breadboarding this thing. So taking super cheap ram, super cheap hard drives, jamming them all on,

20:10

Not even putting a case or a cover on them using super cheap power supplies. No purple. And then they said they said, look, if no purple, no casing, and they made them redundant. And they were like, look, we'll lots of these, we'll be able to search more of the web. We'll be able to have a higher refresh rate, and we'll be able to index stuff better and have a bigger index than anyone else because we're making it so cheap to do this. And so their cost was like a hundred fifty two hundred dollars instead of three thousand dollars. Their servers broke every couple months, but guess what? It was so cheap to make it. When it broke, they threw the thing away. And so it didn't matter. They didn't need to have a five year server. They didn't need to have a high performance server. They didn't need to have the fastest CPU. And in fact, when I joined Google, they had a team that was working on a ten thousand port switch.

Not even putting a case or a cover on them using super cheap power supplies. No purple. And then they said they said, look, if no purple, no casing, and they made them redundant. And they were like, look, we'll lots of these, we'll be able to search more of the web. We'll be able to have a higher refresh rate, and we'll be able to index stuff better and have a bigger index than anyone else because we're making it so cheap to do this. And so their cost was like a hundred fifty two hundred dollars instead of three thousand dollars. Their servers broke every couple months, but guess what? It was so cheap to make it. When it broke, they threw the thing away. And so it didn't matter. They didn't need to have a five year server. They didn't need to have a high performance server. They didn't need to have the fastest CPU. And in fact, when I joined Google, they had a team that was working on a ten thousand port switch.

20:48

So, you know, the and and and they were making their own a six to do that. Their own chips. And so the the depth that the hardware engineering team went into the data center and infrastructure engineering team went into a Google to create a full stack of technology that was advantaged from the ground up meant that they would always be able to search more of the internet, always be able to do it better, always be able to do it fast always be able to have a higher refresh rate. And that advantage and then they made their website super simple and they didn't have to sell ads against it because it costs so little to run the website. And so you add all that up and they create this huge advantage, this huge structural moat, more people come, the network effect, more people show up, they've now got more people that they can sell ads to. They can now reinvest in building more servers, search more of the web, and so on and so forth.

So, you know, the and and and they were making their own a six to do that. Their own chips. And so the the depth that the hardware engineering team went into the data center and infrastructure engineering team went into a Google to create a full stack of technology that was advantaged from the ground up meant that they would always be able to search more of the internet, always be able to do it better, always be able to do it fast always be able to have a higher refresh rate. And that advantage and then they made their website super simple and they didn't have to sell ads against it because it costs so little to run the website. And so you add all that up and they create this huge advantage, this huge structural moat, more people come, the network effect, more people show up, they've now got more people that they can sell ads to. They can now reinvest in building more servers, search more of the web, and so on and so forth.

21:32

And then, you know, the AdWords architecture was just perfect. It was an auction. And so advertisers would bid for search terms. They wouldn't do paid in searching or paid inclusion, which was big at the time. They said that's evil. So we'll show ads really clearly and cleanly on the side. And if users wanna click on an ad, they know they're clicking on an ad. Otherwise, they search the internet. And it just created this this unparalleled mode. And so the hardware advantage that Google built from the beginning, I think, was really core to to their their point of success.

And then, you know, the AdWords architecture was just perfect. It was an auction. And so advertisers would bid for search terms. They wouldn't do paid in searching or paid inclusion, which was big at the time. They said that's evil. So we'll show ads really clearly and cleanly on the side. And if users wanna click on an ad, they know they're clicking on an ad. Otherwise, they search the internet. And it just created this this unparalleled mode. And so the hardware advantage that Google built from the beginning, I think, was really core to to their their point of success.

21:59

And and so sorry. Going back to your question. Look, Larry's page is one of the most impressive individuals. You'll ever meet. It's really sad. He's not more public. Because I think Larry could offer a lot to the world in the way he thinks and the way he talks about things.

And and so sorry. Going back to your question. Look, Larry's page is one of the most impressive individuals. You'll ever meet. It's really sad. He's not more public. Because I think Larry could offer a lot to the world in the way he thinks and the way he talks about things.

22:11

He always takes a bigger point of view and a bigger picture, perspective on things. You know, when when people would suggest products or ideas, he wouldn't get into the technical details year term road maps. He would always do math a hundred x and be like, why can't we do x? So, you know, why don't we search all the world's books? Was one of the things they proposed doing in two thousand three. Which was a crazy concept, but they actually went and then did it. Right? And no one would have done that if not for that suggestion, that that audacity

He always takes a bigger point of view and a bigger picture, perspective on things. You know, when when people would suggest products or ideas, he wouldn't get into the technical details year term road maps. He would always do math a hundred x and be like, why can't we do x? So, you know, why don't we search all the world's books? Was one of the things they proposed doing in two thousand three. Which was a crazy concept, but they actually went and then did it. Right? And no one would have done that if not for that suggestion, that that audacity

22:38

of perspective.

of perspective.

22:39

And so they always push and challenge every team to think bigger, to think more

And so they always push and challenge every team to think bigger, to think more

22:45

grand, to think

grand, to think

22:47

more aggressively. And I think that's a common trait with great leaders in technology businesses

more aggressively. And I think that's a common trait with great leaders in technology businesses

22:52

is, you know,

is, you know,

22:54

and and same with coaches on sports teams, you know, your your team is only as good as you challenge them to be. And so they'll

and and same with coaches on sports teams, you know, your your team is only as good as you challenge them to be. And so they'll

23:01

you know, if you're not challenging your team and you're asking them, what do you think you can do? They're they're only gonna achieve a fraction of what's possible.

you know, if you're not challenging your team and you're asking them, what do you think you can do? They're they're only gonna achieve a fraction of what's possible.

23:09

Great coaches and great leaders need to kind of and and technology leaders in particular have this unique ability

Great coaches and great leaders need to kind of and and technology leaders in particular have this unique ability

23:14

to, I think, understand the technology and leap several, iterations forward

to, I think, understand the technology and leap several, iterations forward

23:19

to speak to the team about where we're headed, and then bring the timelines in, and that makes for, you know, an incredible sense of urgency and outcome. And why do you think most people don't do that? So thinking big, that sounds easy enough to understand. Sounds fun to do.

to speak to the team about where we're headed, and then bring the timelines in, and that makes for, you know, an incredible sense of urgency and outcome. And why do you think most people don't do that? So thinking big, that sounds easy enough to understand. Sounds fun to do.

23:34

You know, I could hear that advice. Why do you think that's hard advice to follow in practice? It's a really important question.

You know, I could hear that advice. Why do you think that's hard advice to follow in practice? It's a really important question.

23:39

So one of our principles at T. P. B. Is there to dream. So it's all about creating that this perspective, you know, how big can this be? How big should we be? And, what happens when you set a big goal? Like, let's say I have to go climb to the top of a mountain. And I can't see the path from here to the top of the mountain.

So one of our principles at T. P. B. Is there to dream. So it's all about creating that this perspective, you know, how big can this be? How big should we be? And, what happens when you set a big goal? Like, let's say I have to go climb to the top of a mountain. And I can't see the path from here to the top of the mountain.

23:56

There's a hundred permutations

There's a hundred permutations

23:58

or and permutations of how you might get up that mountain.

or and permutations of how you might get up that mountain.

24:01

And you don't know which path is gonna work. Most people,

And you don't know which path is gonna work. Most people,

24:05

that are smart have been successful. And most people that have been successful are not used to not succeeding.

that are smart have been successful. And most people that have been successful are not used to not succeeding.

24:11

And so, the orientation at that point is that success is all about doing something and getting an action that you expect out of what you just did. And so you want you are inclined naturally as a smart person as successful person to only do things

And so, the orientation at that point is that success is all about doing something and getting an action that you expect out of what you just did. And so you want you are inclined naturally as a smart person as successful person to only do things

24:26

that you know what you're gonna get as an outcome. And guess what that does? That limits your horizon. So then you end up saying, I'm not gonna take the more circuitous challenging route or path that might get me to the top of the mountain. But I can see that this particular path gets me you know, a quarter of the way up the mountain. And that may not and you might know, however, that that means you're giving up going to the top of the mountain, but at least you know for sure that if you do x, you're gonna get y. And I see this all the time. I see this all the time at businesses

that you know what you're gonna get as an outcome. And guess what that does? That limits your horizon. So then you end up saying, I'm not gonna take the more circuitous challenging route or path that might get me to the top of the mountain. But I can see that this particular path gets me you know, a quarter of the way up the mountain. And that may not and you might know, however, that that means you're giving up going to the top of the mountain, but at least you know for sure that if you do x, you're gonna get y. And I see this all the time. I see this all the time at businesses

24:56

where the teams end up compromising

where the teams end up compromising

24:58

on their big vision and they compromise

on their big vision and they compromise

25:00

on the moonshot

on the moonshot

25:02

because they're more likely to succeed and they feel more comfortable

because they're more likely to succeed and they feel more comfortable

25:06

taking a shorter range,

taking a shorter range,

25:08

narrower horizon,

narrower horizon,

25:09

and minimizing the opportunity set significantly and saying, I'm just gonna go do this because I know if I do x, I'm gonna why. And that feels comfortable and I know it's gonna happen. And so they minimize the dare to dream

and minimizing the opportunity set significantly and saying, I'm just gonna go do this because I know if I do x, I'm gonna why. And that feels comfortable and I know it's gonna happen. And so they minimize the dare to dream

25:19

circumstance. And then they always say, well, you know what? We'll come back and dream big later. But guess what happens? Let's say you're thinking about,

circumstance. And then they always say, well, you know what? We'll come back and dream big later. But guess what happens? Let's say you're thinking about,

25:26

I'll give you a very specific example because this relates to the business we're announcing this week cannot com, which is our our molecular beverage printer. But early on, there was a hard push to say, look, we know restaurant owners will buy this I don't know if every consumer's gonna buy this device. It might be too expensive. It might not taste good enough. Consumers are so, you know, fickle. If we make a device for restaurants, we know that there's an economic advantage, there's an ROI enterprise based sale. Let's go sell in restaurants. And we'll make a bigger device so it can hold more and we don't have to worry about shrinking and getting all technology into a tiny form factor that fits on a kitchen countertop.

I'll give you a very specific example because this relates to the business we're announcing this week cannot com, which is our our molecular beverage printer. But early on, there was a hard push to say, look, we know restaurant owners will buy this I don't know if every consumer's gonna buy this device. It might be too expensive. It might not taste good enough. Consumers are so, you know, fickle. If we make a device for restaurants, we know that there's an economic advantage, there's an ROI enterprise based sale. Let's go sell in restaurants. And we'll make a bigger device so it can hold more and we don't have to worry about shrinking and getting all technology into a tiny form factor that fits on a kitchen countertop.

26:00

The problem is if you do that and you start selling to restaurants,

The problem is if you do that and you start selling to restaurants,

26:05

You've now significantly minimized the opportunity to go into the consumer channel because you now have a customer, and the customer is the restaurant. And the restaurant's gonna say, I want this speech I want this feature and I want this feature and I want you to do this for me. And all of a sudden your whole team is gonna be inundated with product and feature requests that focus on that much smaller much narrower market, and you're gonna end up going deeper and deeper into that market, and you're gonna lose out on the opportunity

You've now significantly minimized the opportunity to go into the consumer channel because you now have a customer, and the customer is the restaurant. And the restaurant's gonna say, I want this speech I want this feature and I want this feature and I want you to do this for me. And all of a sudden your whole team is gonna be inundated with product and feature requests that focus on that much smaller much narrower market, and you're gonna end up going deeper and deeper into that market, and you're gonna lose out on the opportunity

26:27

to go build for the big market, to go build for the hundred x market that can actually change the world and improve the, you know, the the problems that we're trying to address with this business. And so, you know, I've seen this at many different businesses where taking on a lot of technical risk. Taking on a moonshot project

to go build for the big market, to go build for the hundred x market that can actually change the world and improve the, you know, the the problems that we're trying to address with this business. And so, you know, I've seen this at many different businesses where taking on a lot of technical risk. Taking on a moonshot project

26:43

is often foregone and and you end up, you know, trading into a much smaller pie and a much smaller opportunity, and then you often miss out on that bigger opportunity. And so I I I think it's really important for entrepreneurs to continue to dream big and find align capital and align shareholders to let you dream big and shoot for those bigger higher risk opportunities. Because if they work, they're a hundred expert.

is often foregone and and you end up, you know, trading into a much smaller pie and a much smaller opportunity, and then you often miss out on that bigger opportunity. And so I I I think it's really important for entrepreneurs to continue to dream big and find align capital and align shareholders to let you dream big and shoot for those bigger higher risk opportunities. Because if they work, they're a hundred expert.

27:05

I, couldn't agree more. I can think of two examples of my own career where I'm guilty of that, where we did that. And I was just talking to company I invested that they pitched me this

I, couldn't agree more. I can think of two examples of my own career where I'm guilty of that, where we did that. And I was just talking to company I invested that they pitched me this

27:15

amazing self driving car,

amazing self driving car,

27:18

you know, single person single single passenger vehicle that were electric and self driving. And it was this really fantastic vision of what the future might look like. And I feel like, you know, in many ways, they've made a lot of progress, but also

you know, single person single single passenger vehicle that were electric and self driving. And it was this really fantastic vision of what the future might look like. And I feel like, you know, in many ways, they've made a lot of progress, but also

27:31

it's they did the restaurant thing. Basically, they found a customer who showed them a near path to, like, some validation

it's they did the restaurant thing. Basically, they found a customer who showed them a near path to, like, some validation

27:38

and in doing that, they sort of beat down the vision and sort of try try to cram the vision into it. Okay. Some of the vision doesn't fit here. Alright. It's just gonna get sort of left behind. And we'll just do this one thing that might actually net net be a much smaller overall opportunity and smaller impact

and in doing that, they sort of beat down the vision and sort of try try to cram the vision into it. Okay. Some of the vision doesn't fit here. Alright. It's just gonna get sort of left behind. And we'll just do this one thing that might actually net net be a much smaller overall opportunity and smaller impact

27:52

of this really hard technical thing. If you're gonna spend your whole life doing Well, you know, why not go for the one that that actually might work? This also isn't limited to technical. Have you heard the the Airbnb

of this really hard technical thing. If you're gonna spend your whole life doing Well, you know, why not go for the one that that actually might work? This also isn't limited to technical. Have you heard the the Airbnb

28:02

Brian Chessey's thing like the twelve star experience. Have you heard this? No. Maybe. Yeah. But he doesn't ring a bell. You'll you'll like this. So so basically, he sat down his team. He's like, okay. You know, we're in the hospitality business. We wanna give our our guests a great experience, a five star experience. He's like, so first, let's just define it. Right? Like, what's a let's know, just humor me. What's a one star experience? It's like, oh, you get to the house. It's locked. You know, there's cockroaches outside. You know, you can't get in. You're out in the cold blah blah blah. He's like, be vivid about So he made them sort of explain really what that one star experience would feel like. Then he's like, alright, give me a three star experience. It gave me a five star experience. And then the team gets gets excited. They say, oh, five star experience is you know, you get there.

Brian Chessey's thing like the twelve star experience. Have you heard this? No. Maybe. Yeah. But he doesn't ring a bell. You'll you'll like this. So so basically, he sat down his team. He's like, okay. You know, we're in the hospitality business. We wanna give our our guests a great experience, a five star experience. He's like, so first, let's just define it. Right? Like, what's a let's know, just humor me. What's a one star experience? It's like, oh, you get to the house. It's locked. You know, there's cockroaches outside. You know, you can't get in. You're out in the cold blah blah blah. He's like, be vivid about So he made them sort of explain really what that one star experience would feel like. Then he's like, alright, give me a three star experience. It gave me a five star experience. And then the team gets gets excited. They say, oh, five star experience is you know, you get there.

28:39

It's easy to get in. The place is nice. It looks just like the photos. And, you have a great stay. Everything works. Nothing breaks.

It's easy to get in. The place is nice. It looks just like the photos. And, you have a great stay. Everything works. Nothing breaks.

28:47

And, you know, on the way out, you know, the the host leaves you a nice little gift basket. So so you enjoy yourself.

And, you know, on the way out, you know, the the host leaves you a nice little gift basket. So so you enjoy yourself.

28:53

He's like awesome.

He's like awesome.

28:54

So what's a seven star experience?

So what's a seven star experience?

28:56

And now the team sort of like, you know, you see everyone tighten up. It's like, they didn't expect that. They already had they thought five was the max number of stars that you can have. And he's like, Right. Totally. So give me more. And they're like, well, I guess you get there and there's somebody at the airport to pick you up. They're hiding they got your name on a Sonae. He's like, yes. Yes. Give me more. And so they started to define a seven star, and he kept pushing it nine star. Ten star, twelve star, and they get to this ridiculous extreme of, like, you know, you get there. Not only do they have the stay. They say, hey, You're gonna be up at nine AM tomorrow. I got something special for you. Somebody picks you up to take you on a adventure surfing outside because they're a expert and blah blah blah. And then that type of thinking is what gets you to do Airbnb experiences,

And now the team sort of like, you know, you see everyone tighten up. It's like, they didn't expect that. They already had they thought five was the max number of stars that you can have. And he's like, Right. Totally. So give me more. And they're like, well, I guess you get there and there's somebody at the airport to pick you up. They're hiding they got your name on a Sonae. He's like, yes. Yes. Give me more. And so they started to define a seven star, and he kept pushing it nine star. Ten star, twelve star, and they get to this ridiculous extreme of, like, you know, you get there. Not only do they have the stay. They say, hey, You're gonna be up at nine AM tomorrow. I got something special for you. Somebody picks you up to take you on a adventure surfing outside because they're a expert and blah blah blah. And then that type of thinking is what gets you to do Airbnb experiences,

29:35

which is like the local kind of like activities to go do, which wouldn't have really otherwise been in a, you know, go book a place to stay, a place to sleep, like type of website necessarily.

which is like the local kind of like activities to go do, which wouldn't have really otherwise been in a, you know, go book a place to stay, a place to sleep, like type of website necessarily.

29:45

Right. And so you can do that on user experience and customer experience. Just as much as you can do on the technical side. I think that pairs pretty well with your framework there.

Right. And so you can do that on user experience and customer experience. Just as much as you can do on the technical side. I think that pairs pretty well with your framework there.

29:53

Totally.

Totally.

29:54

So let's talk about Can This is cool. So, I heard this. This is actually when I I think I reached out to somebody on your team. I said, I wanna I actually didn't want you on the pot. I said, I wanna make a drink. And so let's can I explain it in simple terms of what I think it is and then you correct me? Go for it. Alright. So,

So let's talk about Can This is cool. So, I heard this. This is actually when I I think I reached out to somebody on your team. I said, I wanna I actually didn't want you on the pot. I said, I wanna make a drink. And so let's can I explain it in simple terms of what I think it is and then you correct me? Go for it. Alright. So,

30:13

You basically made a printer,

You basically made a printer,

30:15

like a home printer, but instead of printing out, you know, sheets of paper with ink on it, you could print out a drink, any drink. So, like, for example, my wife is vegan, She doesn't drink alcohol, never has drank a, you know, a drop in her life, but she loves, you know, certain types of teas and coffees and things like that. And so she could take her favorite tea

like a home printer, but instead of printing out, you know, sheets of paper with ink on it, you could print out a drink, any drink. So, like, for example, my wife is vegan, She doesn't drink alcohol, never has drank a, you know, a drop in her life, but she loves, you know, certain types of teas and coffees and things like that. And so she could take her favorite tea

30:32

and have it, like, exactly the way she wants it. So, you know, like, one of the reasons she loves Starbucks is because she can go and say, I wanna light ice,

and have it, like, exactly the way she wants it. So, you know, like, one of the reasons she loves Starbucks is because she can go and say, I wanna light ice,

30:42

oat milk, you know, decaf

oat milk, you know, decaf

30:44

with no sugar blah blah blah and she can customize her whole drink So similarly, we're gonna have a device and and, you know, five fast forward ten, fifteen years. I don't know. You tell me the timeline, but we're gonna have a device in our house. That we can just push a button and it'll dispense the drink we want. It'll print a drink for you that is exactly the drink you want. And that same machine that she's gonna use for her tees, I can go use for a, you know, lime, you know, gatorade like drink that I could print out, or I might even be able to print a drink that,

with no sugar blah blah blah and she can customize her whole drink So similarly, we're gonna have a device and and, you know, five fast forward ten, fifteen years. I don't know. You tell me the timeline, but we're gonna have a device in our house. That we can just push a button and it'll dispense the drink we want. It'll print a drink for you that is exactly the drink you want. And that same machine that she's gonna use for her tees, I can go use for a, you know, lime, you know, gatorade like drink that I could print out, or I might even be able to print a drink that,

31:13

you know, somebody creates somebody on the on the internet just creates a recipe And then my printer can just print that recipe out and I can try that drink at home. And so instead of

you know, somebody creates somebody on the on the internet just creates a recipe And then my printer can just print that recipe out and I can try that drink at home. And so instead of

31:23

shipping, you know, cans of beverages or going to a store where there's beverages on a shelf and then I drive it home and I put it on my shelf. Instead of that whole process,

shipping, you know, cans of beverages or going to a store where there's beverages on a shelf and then I drive it home and I put it on my shelf. Instead of that whole process,

31:33

we just combine

we just combine

31:34

the water that we already have in our homes.

the water that we already have in our homes.

31:37

With a, like, kinda like a printer cartridge of flavors, and you can print whatever drink you want. So, alright. Tell me tell me if I butchered it. You did great. I love I love the use cases. Those are those are perfect and awesome. So that was great. And I mean, I think that's exactly right. I mean, you know, that the the big

With a, like, kinda like a printer cartridge of flavors, and you can print whatever drink you want. So, alright. Tell me tell me if I butchered it. You did great. I love I love the use cases. Those are those are perfect and awesome. So that was great. And I mean, I think that's exactly right. I mean, you know, that the the big

31:54

discovery, the kind of uh-huh with this business

discovery, the kind of uh-huh with this business

31:58

is based on the idea that ninety nine percent of beverages are water

is based on the idea that ninety nine percent of beverages are water

32:03

or maybe water plus sugar or maybe water plus alcohol.

or maybe water plus sugar or maybe water plus alcohol.

32:06

And one only one percent of all beverages is the chemistry that makes the flavor, the smell

And one only one percent of all beverages is the chemistry that makes the flavor, the smell

32:13

the color and the texture of of the beverage. And that one percent

the color and the texture of of the beverage. And that one percent

32:18

is all that we really need to turn water into all these different beverage. This. So the the I kept literally water into wine. Water into wine. What canna, by the way, is the town in Galile where Jesus turned water into wines. That's the name.

is all that we really need to turn water into all these different beverage. This. So the the I kept literally water into wine. Water into wine. What canna, by the way, is the town in Galile where Jesus turned water into wines. That's the name.

32:32

Little known fact. Now, now becoming a better known fact.

Little known fact. Now, now becoming a better known fact.

32:37

But, friends that went to Sunday school, by the way, tend to know that.

But, friends that went to Sunday school, by the way, tend to know that.

32:41

But basically,

But basically,

32:42

you know, the if you take a wine, wine has about five hundred of those flavor compounds. That's all the stuff that comes from the grape and the skin and the you know, the the branch and the the leaves and the oak and all the stuff.

you know, the if you take a wine, wine has about five hundred of those flavor compounds. That's all the stuff that comes from the grape and the skin and the you know, the the branch and the the leaves and the oak and all the stuff.

32:54

And it turns out that of those five hundred compounds

And it turns out that of those five hundred compounds

32:57

chemically speaking,

chemically speaking,

32:58

Only about thirty to forty really matter to your sensory palate. So your nose and mouth can only really pick up and and really cares about the thirty to forty compounds. The same is true in coffee, in tea, in juice, in soda, in liquor, in beer. So all of these beverages are ninety nine percent water or water and sugar and alcohol, and one percent are compounds where you might have hundreds of compounds in the organic state.

Only about thirty to forty really matter to your sensory palate. So your nose and mouth can only really pick up and and really cares about the thirty to forty compounds. The same is true in coffee, in tea, in juice, in soda, in liquor, in beer. So all of these beverages are ninety nine percent water or water and sugar and alcohol, and one percent are compounds where you might have hundreds of compounds in the organic state.

33:23

But you really only need a few dozen of them. And when you look at the chemical

But you really only need a few dozen of them. And when you look at the chemical

33:27

composition,

composition,

33:28

it turns out that that few dozen compounds

it turns out that that few dozen compounds

33:30

can be very overlapping from one beverage to the other. Only a few tweaks of a few chemicals can change a white one into a red one or you know chardonnay to a soft block. And so the idea is like let's get those compounds, those ingredients,

can be very overlapping from one beverage to the other. Only a few tweaks of a few chemicals can change a white one into a red one or you know chardonnay to a soft block. And so the idea is like let's get those compounds, those ingredients,

33:44

into a cartridge, just like an inkjet printer where you might have c m y k, right, four colors. And we could have eighty compounds, and we think that with eighty compounds,

into a cartridge, just like an inkjet printer where you might have c m y k, right, four colors. And we could have eighty compounds, and we think that with eighty compounds,

33:52

We can recreate all the beverage flavors that make up, you know, everything from an o j to a gatorade,

We can recreate all the beverage flavors that make up, you know, everything from an o j to a gatorade,

33:58

to a beer, to an iced tea, to an iced coffee,

to a beer, to an iced tea, to an iced coffee,

34:01

to a margarita.

to a margarita.

34:03

And so that that's the idea with the business. And so, you know, canada dot com just launched. Right? So it's, we're gonna be

And so that that's the idea with the business. And so, you know, canada dot com just launched. Right? So it's, we're gonna be

34:10

we spent about three years on this project. First was all the chemical work. So, you know, does the chemistry make sense? Can we actually decompose all the beverages? So we've, at this point, you've, though, what's called a a GCMS or a gas chromatography mass spectrometer to to analyze what are the molecular,

we spent about three years on this project. First was all the chemical work. So, you know, does the chemistry make sense? Can we actually decompose all the beverages? So we've, at this point, you've, though, what's called a a GCMS or a gas chromatography mass spectrometer to to analyze what are the molecular,

34:26

components

components

34:27

of literally thousands of beverages. Right. It's like a twenty three and b for drinks.

of literally thousands of beverages. Right. It's like a twenty three and b for drinks.

34:31

Yeah.

Yeah.

34:32

Yeah. And it's unlike this is

Yeah. And it's unlike this is

34:34

this is really scanning the world's

this is really scanning the world's

34:37

or digitizing

or digitizing

34:38

the world's beverages.

the world's beverages.

34:39

And so we've got all the sodas, all the bottles of wine, all the liquor, all the tequila, everything you can come up with has gone through this device. And then based on that chemical composition, we've built software that uses heuristics

And so we've got all the sodas, all the bottles of wine, all the liquor, all the tequila, everything you can come up with has gone through this device. And then based on that chemical composition, we've built software that uses heuristics

34:50

or master combinations

or master combinations

34:51

to try and reduce the number of compounds down and create a common overlapping set that we can recreate all the beverages. So so give you the origin story. So you were you just sitting around one day and you're like, you know what? All these drinks are ninety nine percent water and then just percent is the differentiation. Why don't I do like, how does an idea like this even come into your brain? What do you see? What are you reading? What what happened? Where did the epiphany happen? Well, a couple things One is I I had a good sense for that for a while.

to try and reduce the number of compounds down and create a common overlapping set that we can recreate all the beverages. So so give you the origin story. So you were you just sitting around one day and you're like, you know what? All these drinks are ninety nine percent water and then just percent is the differentiation. Why don't I do like, how does an idea like this even come into your brain? What do you see? What are you reading? What what happened? Where did the epiphany happen? Well, a couple things One is I I had a good sense for that for a while.

35:18

I was at dinner with a professor from UC Davis,

I was at dinner with a professor from UC Davis,

35:21

back in late twenty nineteen or so.

back in late twenty nineteen or so.

35:25

And,

And,

35:27

and so or twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, And so, he was telling me about this research paper published by the scientist in Germany at the Technical University of Munich. And this, the scientist runs a flavor science lab And he was he basically took a glass of wine and he reduced it from five hundred compounds down to like thirty seven or forty or something. And gave it to a consumer or sensory panel and they couldn't tell the difference between that wine and the original wine. And then he did with another wine, another wine, and he's kind of made these declarative statements that he thinks we could recreate all beverage with just a few dozen compounds.

and so or twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, And so, he was telling me about this research paper published by the scientist in Germany at the Technical University of Munich. And this, the scientist runs a flavor science lab And he was he basically took a glass of wine and he reduced it from five hundred compounds down to like thirty seven or forty or something. And gave it to a consumer or sensory panel and they couldn't tell the difference between that wine and the original wine. And then he did with another wine, another wine, and he's kind of made these declarative statements that he thinks we could recreate all beverage with just a few dozen compounds.

35:58

And so that was kinda I sent to the guy at dinner. I'm like, why don't we just make the star direct replicator

And so that was kinda I sent to the guy at dinner. I'm like, why don't we just make the star direct replicator

36:03

for beverages? Like, just print any beverage if we could just get those few dozen compounds

for beverages? Like, just print any beverage if we could just get those few dozen compounds

36:07

to people's homes.

to people's homes.

36:09

And so there's a guy working with us as a scientist in residence at TPP, which is a foundry. We run kind of r and d programs internally, and if we feel confident

And so there's a guy working with us as a scientist in residence at TPP, which is a foundry. We run kind of r and d programs internally, and if we feel confident

36:18

that the r and d yields an opportunity, we'll build a business around it. So in this particular case, we said, Hey, Lance, why don't we read these papers? Try and recreate these experiments and see if we can come up with a good orientation around, is it really feasible? That we can create thousands of beverages using just a few dozen compounds that they make economic sense that we can put them in a flavor cartridge and turn this into a machine.

that the r and d yields an opportunity, we'll build a business around it. So in this particular case, we said, Hey, Lance, why don't we read these papers? Try and recreate these experiments and see if we can come up with a good orientation around, is it really feasible? That we can create thousands of beverages using just a few dozen compounds that they make economic sense that we can put them in a flavor cartridge and turn this into a machine.

36:39

And so you know, after about a year, year and a half, we actually, you know, convinced ourselves that this is gonna work. We separately ran a chemistry program, analytical chemistry program, as well as

And so you know, after about a year, year and a half, we actually, you know, convinced ourselves that this is gonna work. We separately ran a chemistry program, analytical chemistry program, as well as

36:50

hardware program.

hardware program.

36:52

And, you know, we had,

And, you know, we had,

36:54

spreadsheet models that showed that the math could work and that we could actually device and we we had a bunch of different technical challenges on how do you actually dispense,

spreadsheet models that showed that the math could work and that we could actually device and we we had a bunch of different technical challenges on how do you actually dispense,

37:01

right, you know, microliter and sub microliter volumes of these flavoring compounds into the water screen gotta make sure you can do the whole thing in fifteen seconds or twenty seconds because otherwise consumers are gonna get annoyed. It's gotta taste incredible. You can't you gotta have high precision. It's gotta be cheap. Gotta make it really cold. I mean, all the the product that, you know, we had all these PRDs we were trying to iterate on, and then we yield our kind of estimated cost model, and then we had to prove the tech work. So, you know, very iterative cycle for the last, three years to get to this point. So we now have fully working prototypes of the, the gen one of the device.

right, you know, microliter and sub microliter volumes of these flavoring compounds into the water screen gotta make sure you can do the whole thing in fifteen seconds or twenty seconds because otherwise consumers are gonna get annoyed. It's gotta taste incredible. You can't you gotta have high precision. It's gotta be cheap. Gotta make it really cold. I mean, all the the product that, you know, we had all these PRDs we were trying to iterate on, and then we yield our kind of estimated cost model, and then we had to prove the tech work. So, you know, very iterative cycle for the last, three years to get to this point. So we now have fully working prototypes of the, the gen one of the device.

37:34

We're going to production on the gen one of the device and hope to ship early next year.

We're going to production on the gen one of the device and hope to ship early next year.

37:39

And so we're starting preorders today.

And so we're starting preorders today.

37:42

For for ninety nine dollars, you can reserve a fully refundable ninety nine dollar reservation fee. And the first ten thousand orders are are are four ninety nine for the device. And seven ninety nine after the first ten thousand. So that's the setup. So let me just let me do two things. I wanna first ask about the kind of like what kind of drinks am I gonna be able to Just what what the average person wants to know. And then secondly, I wanna talk about the impact of that because I my sense is that

For for ninety nine dollars, you can reserve a fully refundable ninety nine dollar reservation fee. And the first ten thousand orders are are are four ninety nine for the device. And seven ninety nine after the first ten thousand. So that's the setup. So let me just let me do two things. I wanna first ask about the kind of like what kind of drinks am I gonna be able to Just what what the average person wants to know. And then secondly, I wanna talk about the impact of that because I my sense is that

38:08

If you're making the divide if you're making what you what you eat and drink in your own home,

If you're making the divide if you're making what you what you eat and drink in your own home,

38:13

like literally you're producing it in your own home. Cut out a bunch of trucking,

like literally you're producing it in your own home. Cut out a bunch of trucking,

38:17

storage, packaging, stuff that doesn't need to happen, that might actually help the environment. So I wanna talk about the environment in a second.

storage, packaging, stuff that doesn't need to happen, that might actually help the environment. So I wanna talk about the environment in a second.

38:23

Let's first do do the fun stuff. So the drinks. Okay. So,

Let's first do do the fun stuff. So the drinks. Okay. So,

38:28

I got water in my house and,

I got water in my house and,

38:30

you can your drinks are gonna be you have a way to basically cool down the water or and could you like carbonate it or what are the limitations here? Yep. It's it's chilled and carbonated,

you can your drinks are gonna be you have a way to basically cool down the water or and could you like carbonate it or what are the limitations here? Yep. It's it's chilled and carbonated,

38:39

optional. I've in the device. You don't need to worry about any of that. Or you can go hot.

optional. I've in the device. You don't need to worry about any of that. Or you can go hot.

38:44

We don't do heating. So we don't do hot hot beverages in gen one. So just to be clear, you're not gonna have hot coffee or hot tea.

We don't do heating. So we don't do hot hot beverages in gen one. So just to be clear, you're not gonna have hot coffee or hot tea.

38:50

But there is cold brew, there is iced teas, flavored iced teas, all that. There's a whole variety of stuff there.

But there is cold brew, there is iced teas, flavored iced teas, all that. There's a whole variety of stuff there.

38:56

But the idea is there are three cartridges. So there's the the master flavor cartridge. You put it in. It should last anywhere from one to three months,

But the idea is there are three cartridges. So there's the the master flavor cartridge. You put it in. It should last anywhere from one to three months,

39:05

before you need to kind of replace it. There's a sugar cartridge because a lot of beverages people wanna have sugar and so there's a separate cartridge for sugar should last about a month and a separate cartridge for alcohol should last about a month. And you don't have to buy cartridges. They're free. They auto ship to your home, and you just put them in when they arrive. The the the device senses when you're running low and we send you a new new cartridge. We charge per drink So,

before you need to kind of replace it. There's a sugar cartridge because a lot of beverages people wanna have sugar and so there's a separate cartridge for sugar should last about a month and a separate cartridge for alcohol should last about a month. And you don't have to buy cartridges. They're free. They auto ship to your home, and you just put them in when they arrive. The the the device senses when you're running low and we send you a new new cartridge. We charge per drink So,

39:27

the the the price per drink is gonna be twenty five to fifty percent on average cheaper than what you would pay in retail for that same beverage.

the the the price per drink is gonna be twenty five to fifty percent on average cheaper than what you would pay in retail for that same beverage.

39:34

So, you know, at the end of each month, your card or your account is charged for the beverages you consume, but you don't need to go to the store, you don't need to buy cartridges, you don't need to deal with all the nonsense. We we take care of all that. It's really supposed to be hassle free. And then the idea is there's beverages that range from morning till night. So iced coffee, iced tea,

So, you know, at the end of each month, your card or your account is charged for the beverages you consume, but you don't need to go to the store, you don't need to buy cartridges, you don't need to deal with all the nonsense. We we take care of all that. It's really supposed to be hassle free. And then the idea is there's beverages that range from morning till night. So iced coffee, iced tea,

39:52

Sparkling, you know, soda,

Sparkling, you know, soda,

39:54

juice,

juice,

39:57

hydration or energy drinks. There's,

hydration or energy drinks. There's,

40:01

hard seltzers,

hard seltzers,

40:02

cocktails,

cocktails,

40:03

wine.

wine.

40:04

And so there's a range of kind of add ons and and features like there's caffeination,

And so there's a range of kind of add ons and and features like there's caffeination,

40:10

there's nutrient boost. So you can actually vitamin boost, there's electrolyte boosts, and so you could have low alcohol

there's nutrient boost. So you can actually vitamin boost, there's electrolyte boosts, and so you could have low alcohol

40:16

heart seltzer, you could have low sugar

heart seltzer, you could have low sugar

40:19

juice for your kids. You could have,

juice for your kids. You could have,

40:21

you know, add caffeine, have an extra boost of caffeine or low caffeine.

you know, add caffeine, have an extra boost of caffeine or low caffeine.

40:25

I t. So there's there's all this variation around what you can do ultimately from a personalization perspective. And as a user, what you're gonna experience is

I t. So there's there's all this variation around what you can do ultimately from a personalization perspective. And as a user, what you're gonna experience is

40:33

literally hundreds or thousands of brands available to you on this device. And they're all gonna be new brands. So we're we're not yet revealing who the brands are. I think we're a few of them will start to announce this week.

literally hundreds or thousands of brands available to you on this device. And they're all gonna be new brands. So we're we're not yet revealing who the brands are. I think we're a few of them will start to announce this week.

40:45

But if you think about where this goes, as a consumer today, you really have a very limited number of choices when it comes to brands. There's only about a hundred and fifty slots in a retail store for wine beer, coffee tea, juice soda.

But if you think about where this goes, as a consumer today, you really have a very limited number of choices when it comes to brands. There's only about a hundred and fifty slots in a retail store for wine beer, coffee tea, juice soda.

40:57

And so, you know, minute maid, Coca Cola, Pepsi seven up. These are nameless faceless corporate brands.

And so, you know, minute maid, Coca Cola, Pepsi seven up. These are nameless faceless corporate brands.

41:04

In the future,

In the future,

41:05

you're gonna have your own brand, right? So so you and your podcast can make a branded beverage, put it on canna, and your followers can buy your beverage and it can be your favorite Blueberry heart seltzer

you're gonna have your own brand, right? So so you and your podcast can make a branded beverage, put it on canna, and your followers can buy your beverage and it can be your favorite Blueberry heart seltzer

41:15

or your wife's favorite tea

or your wife's favorite tea

41:17

and she's kind of, you know, and so you guys can build your own brands at a cost of nothing to you.

and she's kind of, you know, and so you guys can build your own brands at a cost of nothing to you.

41:23

And so I think that the future is a lot like what we saw in media where people are consuming TikTok and YouTube

And so I think that the future is a lot like what we saw in media where people are consuming TikTok and YouTube

41:29

and Netflix and, you know, there there's a long tail of content. There's a long tail of things that are associated with individuals now and influencers

and Netflix and, you know, there there's a long tail of content. There's a long tail of things that are associated with individuals now and influencers

41:36

I think the same will happen in brands.

I think the same will happen in brands.

41:38

So it's basically just to to kind of explain that again because I think it's an important point. So you're saying, you know, the same way that if you wanted to, you know, watch TV or listen to the radio, there was just a fixed number of slots. And so

So it's basically just to to kind of explain that again because I think it's an important point. So you're saying, you know, the same way that if you wanted to, you know, watch TV or listen to the radio, there was just a fixed number of slots. And so

41:51

they, you know, when there was three channels, well, they would show the most general thing that would appeal to, like, kind of the common denominator

they, you know, when there was three channels, well, they would show the most general thing that would appeal to, like, kind of the common denominator

41:58

type of audience. And then when we got cable, we got more channels. So now you got a fishing channel and a golf channel But, you know, those are still

type of audience. And then when we got cable, we got more channels. So now you got a fishing channel and a golf channel But, you know, those are still

42:05

pretty broad, actually, when you compare it to YouTube, where it's like, I can watch somebody who just likes to binge eat food And, like, that's just what I wanna watch right now. I can watch a guy who, you know, some some cross fit thing that may not have made it on the ESPN ESPN two ESPN three or ESPN you know, like it would have never made it on this. You you you you can't you can't binge watch chess matches on ESPN, but you can on YouTube. Right. So you're now watching way more more media than you would have otherwise because you love chess matches. And this podcast is a good example. Not only does it give the consumer more choice. It gives the creator a way to just push a button and try their hand at it. And if we're good, like, we okay. We kind of sucked at the beginning, and now we're good. Now we get a few million downloads a month. Well, that's great because We it was permissionless. Nobody had we didn't have to go audition anywhere

pretty broad, actually, when you compare it to YouTube, where it's like, I can watch somebody who just likes to binge eat food And, like, that's just what I wanna watch right now. I can watch a guy who, you know, some some cross fit thing that may not have made it on the ESPN ESPN two ESPN three or ESPN you know, like it would have never made it on this. You you you you can't you can't binge watch chess matches on ESPN, but you can on YouTube. Right. So you're now watching way more more media than you would have otherwise because you love chess matches. And this podcast is a good example. Not only does it give the consumer more choice. It gives the creator a way to just push a button and try their hand at it. And if we're good, like, we okay. We kind of sucked at the beginning, and now we're good. Now we get a few million downloads a month. Well, that's great because We it was permissionless. Nobody had we didn't have to go audition anywhere

42:51

and, and get selected in order to be on stage. So what you're saying is the same thing is gonna happen and drink. So the consumer's gonna have this infinite selection

and, and get selected in order to be on stage. So what you're saying is the same thing is gonna happen and drink. So the consumer's gonna have this infinite selection

42:59

of like flavors that fit their needs. So the the low sugar, orange juice,

of like flavors that fit their needs. So the the low sugar, orange juice,

43:04

you know, whatever. That sparkling whatever that's gonna be appealing to that person. They're gonna be able to to print that beverage even though it may not be sold on this on the shelves. Because it's not the not like kind of mass popular,

you know, whatever. That sparkling whatever that's gonna be appealing to that person. They're gonna be able to to print that beverage even though it may not be sold on this on the shelves. Because it's not the not like kind of mass popular,

43:16

drink choice. And the other thing is me and Sam have already started Brain Summer. Sam also do a root beer I'm interested in more of, like, a sparkling water sort of thing, a non alcohol, like, refreshing thing. So so we're, you know, let's do it. You got you guys wanna do it? No. I Yeah. We wanna do it. Yeah. So come to Redwood City. Try the device and we'll get you guys set up and you make your own brand. And Well, but that's the question. Right? We were we were not it. And people got started DMming us because they were like, yeah, dude, we were told because we were we we like to make up fake name brands on the on the show. We're like, oh, Southern Sam's root beer, And then, you know, Sean's, you know, whatever motivates. I I like to I said this idea. I said somebody should make a brand of of water that's just called Lucky Water and just It's just a little you might have good luck if you drink with water. That should have lucky water, right? It's placebo water. And just say there is no this is a total placebo, but hey, it never hurts. And, and so You've got a hint of something in there. Just a hint. Well, it's gonna have some flavor, but the, you know,

drink choice. And the other thing is me and Sam have already started Brain Summer. Sam also do a root beer I'm interested in more of, like, a sparkling water sort of thing, a non alcohol, like, refreshing thing. So so we're, you know, let's do it. You got you guys wanna do it? No. I Yeah. We wanna do it. Yeah. So come to Redwood City. Try the device and we'll get you guys set up and you make your own brand. And Well, but that's the question. Right? We were we were not it. And people got started DMming us because they were like, yeah, dude, we were told because we were we we like to make up fake name brands on the on the show. We're like, oh, Southern Sam's root beer, And then, you know, Sean's, you know, whatever motivates. I I like to I said this idea. I said somebody should make a brand of of water that's just called Lucky Water and just It's just a little you might have good luck if you drink with water. That should have lucky water, right? It's placebo water. And just say there is no this is a total placebo, but hey, it never hurts. And, and so You've got a hint of something in there. Just a hint. Well, it's gonna have some flavor, but the, you know,

44:08

the luck is why. So anyways, that's my drink. And so but the question was, is gonna taste the same. Right? So for example, I lived in China for a bunch of years, and you would get these sodas and there's this phrase for expats living in China called NQR, not quite right. Where it's like it almost tastes like KFC, but like it doesn't taste like KFC.

the luck is why. So anyways, that's my drink. And so but the question was, is gonna taste the same. Right? So for example, I lived in China for a bunch of years, and you would get these sodas and there's this phrase for expats living in China called NQR, not quite right. Where it's like it almost tastes like KFC, but like it doesn't taste like KFC.

44:27

That was a common problem when they tried to export these kind of flavors to another country. So I know you're kinda biased, but give me the the you seem like a you're pretty honest guy. I don't think you're trying to sell stuff. No. I mean, we're pretty technical about So so so here's an important point, and I I made this point earlier today. So it's fresh on my mind. There's a difference between taste and flavor.

That was a common problem when they tried to export these kind of flavors to another country. So I know you're kinda biased, but give me the the you seem like a you're pretty honest guy. I don't think you're trying to sell stuff. No. I mean, we're pretty technical about So so so here's an important point, and I I made this point earlier today. So it's fresh on my mind. There's a difference between taste and flavor.

44:47

Flavor is the sensory experience that you have.

Flavor is the sensory experience that you have.

44:51

You know, biochemically

You know, biochemically

44:53

and biologically as you experience

and biologically as you experience

44:55

a bunch of chemistry in your mouth.

a bunch of chemistry in your mouth.

44:58

Taste

Taste

44:59

is how you psychologically or how your brain interprets and and and finds that

is how you psychologically or how your brain interprets and and and finds that

45:03

appealing. So we've all heard stories about taking expensive wine and cheap wine and blindfolding people and giving it to them. They can't tell the the difference. I can give you really cheap two buck chuck in a two Michelin Star restaurant you taste it and you're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. You know? Fantastic.

appealing. So we've all heard stories about taking expensive wine and cheap wine and blindfolding people and giving it to them. They can't tell the the difference. I can give you really cheap two buck chuck in a two Michelin Star restaurant you taste it and you're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. You know? Fantastic.

45:18

I can give you a really expensive wine in a McDonald's, and you'd kinda chug it down. Right? And so,

I can give you a really expensive wine in a McDonald's, and you'd kinda chug it down. Right? And so,

45:23

Taste is a function of the overall kind of sensory experience

Taste is a function of the overall kind of sensory experience

45:27

when you have a product, when you engage in a product. And so,

when you have a product, when you engage in a product. And so,

45:31

you know, a big part of what we're trying to get right

you know, a big part of what we're trying to get right

45:34

is that experience being more than just the flavor we have to get right. Right? Like but you have to make sure that there's something to substitute

is that experience being more than just the flavor we have to get right. Right? Like but you have to make sure that there's something to substitute

45:42

for the affinity you have with a brand. So you have an affinity with KFC or Coca Cola. And so there's some benefit of that being ingrained in your mind. You taste something. It's good enough. You're like, okay, cool.

for the affinity you have with a brand. So you have an affinity with KFC or Coca Cola. And so there's some benefit of that being ingrained in your mind. You taste something. It's good enough. You're like, okay, cool.

45:52

And so what we do from a flavor so so that's number one is there's a whole digital experience on the device that we think is really important. Brands no longer are static. It's not just a logo. Brands are visual. Right? So so there's a video or some audio that comes through as you're exploring, as you're trying stuff through the device.

And so what we do from a flavor so so that's number one is there's a whole digital experience on the device that we think is really important. Brands no longer are static. It's not just a logo. Brands are visual. Right? So so there's a video or some audio that comes through as you're exploring, as you're trying stuff through the device.

46:10

And then,

And then,

46:12

flavor,

flavor,

46:13

it's really straightforward.

it's really straightforward.

46:14

Our chemistry team prints beverages.

Our chemistry team prints beverages.

46:16

We take the best in the market for that category. So we'll take Sprite lemon lime soda. We'll print one of our lemon lime sodas and we have a sensory panel where we bring in consumers, they blind taste, and we score stuff. And then we get iterative feedback on what's working, what's not, and that allows us to craft formulaize. So you know, that is a big part of our analytical chemistry process is the sensory feedback that we do blind.

We take the best in the market for that category. So we'll take Sprite lemon lime soda. We'll print one of our lemon lime sodas and we have a sensory panel where we bring in consumers, they blind taste, and we score stuff. And then we get iterative feedback on what's working, what's not, and that allows us to craft formulaize. So you know, that is a big part of our analytical chemistry process is the sensory feedback that we do blind.

46:38

And so we don't graduate formula. We don't say that these ingredients work until and unless we hit and exceed best in market comparables.

And so we don't graduate formula. We don't say that these ingredients work until and unless we hit and exceed best in market comparables.

46:47

By the way, really interesting statistic, you'll see that

By the way, really interesting statistic, you'll see that

46:50

things like, cold brew coffee, which is a really interesting one because it's so complex and can be so different just like dark chocolate. You can take like Starbucks and blue bottle and one group of people will passionately love Starbucks. One group of people will passionately love blue bottle. And so, you know, you'll see that our we will score

things like, cold brew coffee, which is a really interesting one because it's so complex and can be so different just like dark chocolate. You can take like Starbucks and blue bottle and one group of people will passionately love Starbucks. One group of people will passionately love blue bottle. And so, you know, you'll see that our we will score

47:08

really well with one group with one of our formula and really well with the other group with another one of our formula. And so this goes to the point earlier. If you take a Coca Cola, it's got forty four grams of sugar or whatever in it. That's what Coca Cola decided was gonna be the lowest common denominator. That's how they get the biggest audience to buy Coca Cola. But it turns out some people would buy more Coca Cola if it was twenty grams of sugar. And some people would buy more Coca Cola if it was sixty grams of sugar. So if Coca Cola had a twenty gram, thirty gram, forty gram, fifty gram, and sixty gram version, of Coca Cola, they would sell a lot more in aggregate of all those versions than if they sold just the one forty four grandchildren And so Sugar is a terrible example because it's evil and awful, but we all love it. But, you know, they're, like, my point is that that that that yeah. Talk on this. You've seen that one, but Malcolm Gladwell has a TED Talk about the the perfect pasta sauce. It's it's good. Like, it has millions of views. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta listen to the stick. So Malcolm Gladville goes on and like in his style, he goes and he tells this great story about this this guy that gets hired by Pepsi, by Coke, and then gets hired by Prego. I think it is. He's like, you want the perfect pasta sauce. What is the perfect flavor for for consumers? And he discovers there is no perfect pasta sauce. There are only perfect pasta sauces. He's like -- That's right. -- some people want the chunky one and there is a perfect version of the chunky that will appeal to the people there. And then some people want the one that's this, and and that's why you see the aisle today, and there's, like, the the one that's super garlicky, and then there's the one that's super chunky, and then there's one that's not chunky, because

really well with one group with one of our formula and really well with the other group with another one of our formula. And so this goes to the point earlier. If you take a Coca Cola, it's got forty four grams of sugar or whatever in it. That's what Coca Cola decided was gonna be the lowest common denominator. That's how they get the biggest audience to buy Coca Cola. But it turns out some people would buy more Coca Cola if it was twenty grams of sugar. And some people would buy more Coca Cola if it was sixty grams of sugar. So if Coca Cola had a twenty gram, thirty gram, forty gram, fifty gram, and sixty gram version, of Coca Cola, they would sell a lot more in aggregate of all those versions than if they sold just the one forty four grandchildren And so Sugar is a terrible example because it's evil and awful, but we all love it. But, you know, they're, like, my point is that that that that yeah. Talk on this. You've seen that one, but Malcolm Gladwell has a TED Talk about the the perfect pasta sauce. It's it's good. Like, it has millions of views. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta listen to the stick. So Malcolm Gladville goes on and like in his style, he goes and he tells this great story about this this guy that gets hired by Pepsi, by Coke, and then gets hired by Prego. I think it is. He's like, you want the perfect pasta sauce. What is the perfect flavor for for consumers? And he discovers there is no perfect pasta sauce. There are only perfect pasta sauces. He's like -- That's right. -- some people want the chunky one and there is a perfect version of the chunky that will appeal to the people there. And then some people want the one that's this, and and that's why you see the aisle today, and there's, like, the the one that's super garlicky, and then there's the one that's super chunky, and then there's one that's not chunky, because

48:30

those people feel very passionately that chunky is better than non chunky. They it's not closed for them. And then the, you know, another group of people will feel the exact opposite. And so but they're limited in in some ways because there's those are still well, they're they're only gonna bottle five of these or seven of these or twelve of these, and then put them on shelves, which can only hold whatever seven variations, whereas you're not limited by that in the same way that YouTube's not limited by the number of channels on your TV. That's right. Exactly right. And I think that's where

those people feel very passionately that chunky is better than non chunky. They it's not closed for them. And then the, you know, another group of people will feel the exact opposite. And so but they're limited in in some ways because there's those are still well, they're they're only gonna bottle five of these or seven of these or twelve of these, and then put them on shelves, which can only hold whatever seven variations, whereas you're not limited by that in the same way that YouTube's not limited by the number of channels on your TV. That's right. Exactly right. And I think that's where

48:58

It's not about are we better than Coca Cola. It's that can everyone find a product on Canada that they like more than Coca Cola. And you you can't use their name. Right? So what are you gonna do? Are you like smoke or shmola? Like what how are you gonna Oh, no.

It's not about are we better than Coca Cola. It's that can everyone find a product on Canada that they like more than Coca Cola. And you you can't use their name. Right? So what are you gonna do? Are you like smoke or shmola? Like what how are you gonna Oh, no.

49:11

We're not using any any of those brands. We're it's all new brands. Your lucky water is gonna be a brand. We're gonna get that done. Okay. Great. And so you'll find hundreds of new brands available on Canada that you don't find on the store shelves. And

We're not using any any of those brands. We're it's all new brands. Your lucky water is gonna be a brand. We're gonna get that done. Okay. Great. And so you'll find hundreds of new brands available on Canada that you don't find on the store shelves. And

49:24

you're gonna have like your house brands, basically, of the popular things yourselves to to see. We may. Yeah. I I'm not interested. It like, I'm more interested in finding partners that are gonna be passionate promoters and wanna, you know, be creators on this platform. So I think that's where I'm most interested. I think we're gonna have to seed a bunch of stuff ourselves, but,

you're gonna have like your house brands, basically, of the popular things yourselves to to see. We may. Yeah. I I'm not interested. It like, I'm more interested in finding partners that are gonna be passionate promoters and wanna, you know, be creators on this platform. So I think that's where I'm most interested. I think we're gonna have to seed a bunch of stuff ourselves, but,

49:41

you know, I think it's it's likely gonna be the case that folks that wanna be creators are gonna be bringing brands to market through the device. Well, you know, this has happened with alcohol. Right? So, like, the rock, I think is I think he -- Exactly. -- he sold, I don't know, how many hundreds of thousands of cases of his tequila. Like, he's the rock is gonna be a billionaire, not from wrestling, not from movies, but from Same with fifty cents. Same with George Clooney. I mean, all these guys have. They've all got beverage brands. And by the way, they all

you know, I think it's it's likely gonna be the case that folks that wanna be creators are gonna be bringing brands to market through the device. Well, you know, this has happened with alcohol. Right? So, like, the rock, I think is I think he -- Exactly. -- he sold, I don't know, how many hundreds of thousands of cases of his tequila. Like, he's the rock is gonna be a billionaire, not from wrestling, not from movies, but from Same with fifty cents. Same with George Clooney. I mean, all these guys have. They've all got beverage brands. And by the way, they all

50:05

You have to be huge and that's the thing. So,

You have to be huge and that's the thing. So,

50:07

only three percent of beverage brands that launch,

only three percent of beverage brands that launch,

50:11

and get retail space actually make it to ten million in sales. Right. And so, you know, if you're someone with less than a hundred million followers, you've only got three million followers. You're a great YouTube creator. People know you. They love you. They're passionate about you. You're never gonna go make a beverage brand. Right. It's gonna cost five million dollars to do that. You gotta go make formulate it. You gotta make packaging. You gotta make a logo. You gotta it, then you gotta go convince retail stores to carry it. Right. I mean, the whole process is like an insurmountable process generally speaking. You have to be huge like the rock to get that. And, you know, there's probably ninety thousand times more people in that middle

and get retail space actually make it to ten million in sales. Right. And so, you know, if you're someone with less than a hundred million followers, you've only got three million followers. You're a great YouTube creator. People know you. They love you. They're passionate about you. You're never gonna go make a beverage brand. Right. It's gonna cost five million dollars to do that. You gotta go make formulate it. You gotta make packaging. You gotta make a logo. You gotta it, then you gotta go convince retail stores to carry it. Right. I mean, the whole process is like an insurmountable process generally speaking. You have to be huge like the rock to get that. And, you know, there's probably ninety thousand times more people in that middle

50:43

that are really influential have a lot of followers, aren't as big as George Clooney in the rock. And so they could make a brand that doesn't require any investment that doesn't require any capital. They don't have to take any risk.

that are really influential have a lot of followers, aren't as big as George Clooney in the rock. And so they could make a brand that doesn't require any investment that doesn't require any capital. They don't have to take any risk.

50:55

And look, if it's digital, it's permissionless. Right? So if it works, great. Like, they've got,

And look, if it's digital, it's permissionless. Right? So if it works, great. Like, they've got,

51:00

a nice revenue stream. And you give a a share. So let's say, I don't know, what what do you think the average drinks gonna sell for? Like a dollar or less than a dollar? So it ranges from, you know, two twenty nine cents for like a sparkling water, like a flavored water, like a LaCroi competitor.

a nice revenue stream. And you give a a share. So let's say, I don't know, what what do you think the average drinks gonna sell for? Like a dollar or less than a dollar? So it ranges from, you know, two twenty nine cents for like a sparkling water, like a flavored water, like a LaCroi competitor.

51:14

Up to

Up to

51:15

two ninety nine for kind of like a really nice cocktail.

two ninety nine for kind of like a really nice cocktail.

51:18

You know, you'll find that like a mojito or mimosa will be like a dollar ninety nine.

You know, you'll find that like a mojito or mimosa will be like a dollar ninety nine.

51:23

Generally, the price will be about twenty five to fifty percent less than the store. Right. So let's say I'm selling my my thirty cent, lucky water. What is the is there standard out of the box like a app store, like thirty percent cut type of thing or what what is the what is the business model? Cause because this will let more people do the rock This will let people like me do the rock thing where we can just formulate a drink, sell it virtually digitally into everybody who has a printer is now available, and then we get a small income stream royalty stream coming through this. Yeah. By the way, the royalty stream for like someone like fifty cent or something, it's gonna it was like two to six percent, you know. So

Generally, the price will be about twenty five to fifty percent less than the store. Right. So let's say I'm selling my my thirty cent, lucky water. What is the is there standard out of the box like a app store, like thirty percent cut type of thing or what what is the what is the business model? Cause because this will let more people do the rock This will let people like me do the rock thing where we can just formulate a drink, sell it virtually digitally into everybody who has a printer is now available, and then we get a small income stream royalty stream coming through this. Yeah. By the way, the royalty stream for like someone like fifty cent or something, it's gonna it was like two to six percent, you know. So

51:56

they're participate

they're participate

51:57

on net. Right? And so there's a very,

on net. Right? And so there's a very,

52:00

different kind of model there. We offer a much higher share of revenue.

different kind of model there. We offer a much higher share of revenue.

52:04

Obviously,

Obviously,

52:05

you know,

you know,

52:06

this is a a very difficult business to operate. So we've gotta get cartridges made. We gotta get them to people's homes. We auto renew. So there's a whole services component. So, you know, we've got a pretty good pitch

this is a a very difficult business to operate. So we've gotta get cartridges made. We gotta get them to people's homes. We auto renew. So there's a whole services component. So, you know, we've got a pretty good pitch

52:17

today for brand partners.

today for brand partners.

52:19

You know, we haven't launched,

You know, we haven't launched,

52:22

commercially. So I'm not gonna kinda commit to what the number is gonna be, but I I I think it's a really, really compelling opportunity.

commercially. So I'm not gonna kinda commit to what the number is gonna be, but I I I think it's a really, really compelling opportunity.

52:28

And they're all gonna be, you know, real they're they're gonna own their brand. If they wanna take that brand and use it elsewhere, it doesn't have to be exclusive. We don't own the brand. It's it's your brand. Right. So you could take your brand lucky water And if it takes off and you've got ten million people that wanna buy it in stores, go launch it in stores. You know, it's your brand.

And they're all gonna be, you know, real they're they're gonna own their brand. If they wanna take that brand and use it elsewhere, it doesn't have to be exclusive. We don't own the brand. It's it's your brand. Right. So you could take your brand lucky water And if it takes off and you've got ten million people that wanna buy it in stores, go launch it in stores. You know, it's your brand.

52:47

So, yeah, I think it's a platform for letting people kind of create and ideate and,

So, yeah, I think it's a platform for letting people kind of create and ideate and,

52:52

and, you know, see if they can develop value there. And the thing. It's almost like it's like merge, right? Like, I mean, just, you know, monitor your yourself. The the device cost is at four ninety nine or it's gonna cost four ninety nine? That's the pre order kind of for the first ten thousand orders. So once we hit ten thousand, the the price is going up to seven ninety And then is this the, like, kind of Tesla roadster model where you think that, you know, where do you wanna drive this down to? What do you think is the thing you need where this actually is not just my, you know, cool thing in my house when people come over and I can do a magic trick. Like, when does this become standard where it's not a magic trick? Everyone's got one. So it's a it's a great question. You know, there's about thirty five million

and, you know, see if they can develop value there. And the thing. It's almost like it's like merge, right? Like, I mean, just, you know, monitor your yourself. The the device cost is at four ninety nine or it's gonna cost four ninety nine? That's the pre order kind of for the first ten thousand orders. So once we hit ten thousand, the the price is going up to seven ninety And then is this the, like, kind of Tesla roadster model where you think that, you know, where do you wanna drive this down to? What do you think is the thing you need where this actually is not just my, you know, cool thing in my house when people come over and I can do a magic trick. Like, when does this become standard where it's not a magic trick? Everyone's got one. So it's a it's a great question. You know, there's about thirty five million

53:27

curigs installed in the world. There's like three and a half, four and a half million soda streams.

curigs installed in the world. There's like three and a half, four and a half million soda streams.

53:33

These devices

These devices

53:35

have prices that range from like seventy bucks up to two ninety nine for like a nice nespresso

have prices that range from like seventy bucks up to two ninety nine for like a nice nespresso

53:40

and then this, you know, so two ninety nine maybe gets you kind of a

and then this, you know, so two ninety nine maybe gets you kind of a

53:44

ten percent market, you know, one ninety nine gets you thirty percent. I I don't know the number because part of what we're doing is we're not just a single product and a single day part. So an espresso curate soda screen, one product, one day part. So will people pay more for more dayparts.

ten percent market, you know, one ninety nine gets you thirty percent. I I don't know the number because part of what we're doing is we're not just a single product and a single day part. So an espresso curate soda screen, one product, one day part. So will people pay more for more dayparts.

53:58

Will people pay more for more variety for lower and hopefully our prices are gonna be lower than what you'd pay for for some other alternative products? So the value we can provide to consumers, I think, will ultimately dictate how the market expands as a function of price. Right.

Will people pay more for more variety for lower and hopefully our prices are gonna be lower than what you'd pay for for some other alternative products? So the value we can provide to consumers, I think, will ultimately dictate how the market expands as a function of price. Right.

54:13

And,

And,

54:14

and then form factor. So so, you know, can we get it smaller? And then, heating, can we add heating to it? And so, you know, there's a bunch of features on the roadmap and then the trade offs on price.

and then form factor. So so, you know, can we get it smaller? And then, heating, can we add heating to it? And so, you know, there's a bunch of features on the roadmap and then the trade offs on price.

54:25

So, you know, if we add heating, it costs a lot more. It's gonna get bigger. Can we make a technology leap where we can actually get everything to be smaller and add heat and drop the price And, you know, as we go from Gen one, we're calling this our Gen one device mechano one to Gen three. We really think Gen three ends up being kind of like it's got everything for everyone, anesthetic price point for the mass market.

So, you know, if we add heating, it costs a lot more. It's gonna get bigger. Can we make a technology leap where we can actually get everything to be smaller and add heat and drop the price And, you know, as we go from Gen one, we're calling this our Gen one device mechano one to Gen three. We really think Gen three ends up being kind of like it's got everything for everyone, anesthetic price point for the mass market.

54:45

And I don't know if you're fully out of time, but I did wanna give you a chance to do talk environment for a second. If you if you have Great. Thank you. I think that's probably

And I don't know if you're fully out of time, but I did wanna give you a chance to do talk environment for a second. If you if you have Great. Thank you. I think that's probably

54:53

pretty major or, like, at least one of the big drivers for you here. Pretty much all the work we do at TPB is oriented around. How do we change systems production on planet earth so that, we can make things using less energy, less land, less natural resources.

pretty major or, like, at least one of the big drivers for you here. Pretty much all the work we do at TPB is oriented around. How do we change systems production on planet earth so that, we can make things using less energy, less land, less natural resources.

55:07

I I'm a big believer that sustainability in the twenty first century does not arise from convincing consumers to consume less. I think sustainability arises from building technology based solutions that led consumers consume more and dropping the price and dropping the environmental impact. And that's what technology allows us to do. So if you go back to the industrial revolutions, you know, of the nineteenth and twentieth century,

I I'm a big believer that sustainability in the twenty first century does not arise from convincing consumers to consume less. I think sustainability arises from building technology based solutions that led consumers consume more and dropping the price and dropping the environmental impact. And that's what technology allows us to do. So if you go back to the industrial revolutions, you know, of the nineteenth and twentieth century,

55:31

we built factories. Right. We we put all this technology in a big machine and a big facility and we used it to make stuff over and over again. And that dropped the price for consumers because we automated it in a big factory. Turns out that the technology of that factory as all technology does,

we built factories. Right. We we put all this technology in a big machine and a big facility and we used it to make stuff over and over again. And that dropped the price for consumers because we automated it in a big factory. Turns out that the technology of that factory as all technology does,

55:45

shrinks

shrinks

55:46

gets faster, gets cheaper, gets better. And so theoretically,

gets faster, gets cheaper, gets better. And so theoretically,

55:50

technology like what existed a factory technology that's better than what exists in a factory to make beverages can be put in your home. And so, you know, the idea is how do you decentralize manufacturing?

technology like what existed a factory technology that's better than what exists in a factory to make beverages can be put in your home. And so, you know, the idea is how do you decentralize manufacturing?

56:01

Because it takes about six hundred liters of water to make a single liter of wine. It takes about forty liters of water to make a liter of orange juice. And we take all of this water. And by the way, orange juice is ninety three percent water, seven percent sugar, only one percent is the flavor compounds. Right. Wine is eighty eight percent water, eleven percent alcohol, less than one percent flavor compounds. So, you know, how do we so we've taken all this water, grown all these crops

Because it takes about six hundred liters of water to make a single liter of wine. It takes about forty liters of water to make a liter of orange juice. And we take all of this water. And by the way, orange juice is ninety three percent water, seven percent sugar, only one percent is the flavor compounds. Right. Wine is eighty eight percent water, eleven percent alcohol, less than one percent flavor compounds. So, you know, how do we so we've taken all this water, grown all these crops

56:25

that basically turn into water, put them into glass and plastic and cans that we use carbon dioxide to make, then we put them on trucks which use carbon dioxide to go to warehouses

that basically turn into water, put them into glass and plastic and cans that we use carbon dioxide to make, then we put them on trucks which use carbon dioxide to go to warehouses

56:35

that then go into stores, then go into your home, and then you store them in your home, and you're basically drinking water. And every industrialized home has water.

that then go into stores, then go into your home, and then you store them in your home, and you're basically drinking water. And every industrialized home has water.

56:44

It's about half a billion tons of c o two that are put into the atmosphere every year to make bottled cans and beverages.

It's about half a billion tons of c o two that are put into the atmosphere every year to make bottled cans and beverages.

56:51

It is about bottle bottle and canned beverages.

It is about bottle bottle and canned beverages.

56:54

It is about four hundred trillion liters of water that are used in the whole production cycle of bottled beverages.

It is about four hundred trillion liters of water that are used in the whole production cycle of bottled beverages.

57:02

And consumers are spending two point three trillion dollars a year on this archaic insane system of centralized manufacturing

And consumers are spending two point three trillion dollars a year on this archaic insane system of centralized manufacturing

57:08

to use a ton of energy and a ton of carbon and a ton of land to just move water into your home when you already have water in your home. Hundred and twenty million acres of farmland that could be reduced and returned back the,

to use a ton of energy and a ton of carbon and a ton of land to just move water into your home when you already have water in your home. Hundred and twenty million acres of farmland that could be reduced and returned back the,

57:19

natural ecosystems that we would stop using to grow all the stuff. So that's our long term incentive. Right. The incentive is, can we take that carbon out of the atmosphere Can we reduce the waste on water? Can we return the land to natural ecosystems? And at the same time, make a cheaper

natural ecosystems that we would stop using to grow all the stuff. So that's our long term incentive. Right. The incentive is, can we take that carbon out of the atmosphere Can we reduce the waste on water? Can we return the land to natural ecosystems? And at the same time, make a cheaper

57:34

and better experience for consumers by centralizing manufacturing and putting these devices in homes and giving people better options.

and better experience for consumers by centralizing manufacturing and putting these devices in homes and giving people better options.

57:40

And so that's why we're so excited about this. You know, I think I think we we have an opportunity to do something that has an impact,

And so that's why we're so excited about this. You know, I think I think we we have an opportunity to do something that has an impact,

57:47

but also hopefully gives consumers something that's better than what they have today.

but also hopefully gives consumers something that's better than what they have today.

57:51

Yeah.

Yeah.

57:52

I don't know if you're hiring, but this is one of those companies where I would look at it and say, wow, that that'd be a cool place to work if I was out there in the job market

I don't know if you're hiring, but this is one of those companies where I would look at it and say, wow, that that'd be a cool place to work if I was out there in the job market

57:59

because You have

because You have

58:01

hard tech problem.

hard tech problem.

58:03

You have a device that if it works, it's gonna be like

You have a device that if it works, it's gonna be like

58:06

a household name, everybody's gonna know it. It's gonna be like a Netflix or an iPad or something. It'd be something that everybody knows if this actually pulls it off. I mean, you're on some Willie wonka shit. You know, you're basically creating this magical device

a household name, everybody's gonna know it. It's gonna be like a Netflix or an iPad or something. It'd be something that everybody knows if this actually pulls it off. I mean, you're on some Willie wonka shit. You know, you're basically creating this magical device

58:19

that lets you create whatever you want, you know, your own little candy, your own little beverage,

that lets you create whatever you want, you know, your own little candy, your own little beverage,

58:23

in your home. I think that's,

in your home. I think that's,

58:25

it's pretty inspiring. And,

it's pretty inspiring. And,

58:27

and, you know, to do that while also

and, you know, to do that while also

58:29

having a big impact on the environment. Right? Like, most people would look environmental supply chain you talked about and say, how do we make this twenty percent more efficient at this step? How do we make the trucks emit a little less carbon dioxide? Alright? How do we do we just reduce this by fifteen percent? And what you've done is said, why are we doing this in the first place? Why don't we eliminate the whole chain? So why are we using all this water and all this plastic and all this fuel just to move water from here to there and add a little bit of flavor to it. Alright. The water and -- Totally. Even but even worse when there's already water piped into people's homes.

having a big impact on the environment. Right? Like, most people would look environmental supply chain you talked about and say, how do we make this twenty percent more efficient at this step? How do we make the trucks emit a little less carbon dioxide? Alright? How do we do we just reduce this by fifteen percent? And what you've done is said, why are we doing this in the first place? Why don't we eliminate the whole chain? So why are we using all this water and all this plastic and all this fuel just to move water from here to there and add a little bit of flavor to it. Alright. The water and -- Totally. Even but even worse when there's already water piped into people's homes.

59:00

We already built the the the core infrastructure, the pipe into the home with water. All we gotta do is sort of like at the at the last last mile, not even last mile. Sort of like the last two feet of counter space. Just convert it into the product people want. So I think it's pretty awesome.

We already built the the the core infrastructure, the pipe into the home with water. All we gotta do is sort of like at the at the last last mile, not even last mile. Sort of like the last two feet of counter space. Just convert it into the product people want. So I think it's pretty awesome.

59:13

Yeah. And like all the refrigerator space and energy to run the refrigerator to store all that stuff and like the the the stuff in your in your cabinets. Yeah. So that's exactly right. I mean, you nailed it. Like, that's why it's so awesome. So, yeah, we are hiring and we got great offices. So and people go to work in the office. And so That that's a perk nowadays.

Yeah. And like all the refrigerator space and energy to run the refrigerator to store all that stuff and like the the the stuff in your in your cabinets. Yeah. So that's exactly right. I mean, you nailed it. Like, that's why it's so awesome. So, yeah, we are hiring and we got great offices. So and people go to work in the office. And so That that's a perk nowadays.

59:33

You could see humans if you work with us. Yeah.

You could see humans if you work with us. Yeah.

59:36

I'm gonna go out Come and meet people. IRL. I think, you know, climate climate corp is cool. The insurance company is all, and it's not that cool. But, you know, I guess I need some money. This is cool. This is gonna be your biggest thing. Hopefully, this will be the thing that, you know, college version of you would be like, alright. That was that was sweet. Not not underwhelmed by that one. As long as my kids are proud down the road, I'll I'll be happy. That's all good. Alright. Tell people where to go to, so canada dot com go go. Is that where you go? Canon dot com. C c a n a dot com. And, yeah, you can check out the product specs and the product video and and sign up,

I'm gonna go out Come and meet people. IRL. I think, you know, climate climate corp is cool. The insurance company is all, and it's not that cool. But, you know, I guess I need some money. This is cool. This is gonna be your biggest thing. Hopefully, this will be the thing that, you know, college version of you would be like, alright. That was that was sweet. Not not underwhelmed by that one. As long as my kids are proud down the road, I'll I'll be happy. That's all good. Alright. Tell people where to go to, so canada dot com go go. Is that where you go? Canon dot com. C c a n a dot com. And, yeah, you can check out the product specs and the product video and and sign up,

01:00:07

for a ninety nine dollar pre order reservation.

for a ninety nine dollar pre order reservation.

01:00:10

Thanks for coming on, man. I really appreciate this. I'm a fan It's been awesome to chat. Yeah. It's been a great chat. I think you really, really nailed it, and I appreciate you you listening. So that's been great. Thank you.

Thanks for coming on, man. I really appreciate this. I'm a fan It's been awesome to chat. Yeah. It's been a great chat. I think you really, really nailed it, and I appreciate you you listening. So that's been great. Thank you.

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