00:00

I now realize something I already knew, but I didn't have the guts to act on, which was that at any given time, you're really only gonna get to throw your all into one thing.

I now realize something I already knew, but I didn't have the guts to act on, which was that at any given time, you're really only gonna get to throw your all into one thing.

00:10

And so why not throw like, if you're gonna do that, like, choose really wisely.

And so why not throw like, if you're gonna do that, like, choose really wisely.

00:20

We,

We,

00:22

we're in San Francisco. We're outside of San Francisco. We're doing a a live

we're in San Francisco. We're outside of San Francisco. We're doing a a live

00:26

pod for seven to a while. We're in this studio. What what is this a music studio? Is that what this is? Normally, music studio? Did the instruments give it away?

pod for seven to a while. We're in this studio. What what is this a music studio? Is that what this is? Normally, music studio? Did the instruments give it away?

00:34

Alright. People were asking online. They said they want us to do a pod. We already did my story. It's the second episode.

Alright. People were asking online. They said they want us to do a pod. We already did my story. It's the second episode.

00:41

Now we'll do one on you. Alright. So how old are you now?

Now we'll do one on you. Alright. So how old are you now?

00:45

Good question. Thirty four.

Good question. Thirty four.

00:47

And you're from everywhere.

And you're from everywhere.

00:50

Everywhere.

Everywhere.

00:50

Where? I was born in Oklahoma. Believe it or not. Tulsa?

Where? I was born in Oklahoma. Believe it or not. Tulsa?

00:55

Yeah. Denver,

Yeah. Denver,

00:57

Texas,

Texas,

00:58

China, Indonesia,

China, Indonesia,

00:59

Australia,

Australia,

01:01

San Francisco,

San Francisco,

01:03

Yeah. That's it. And maybe a little bit London too, two months. And you're living in Australia in

Yeah. That's it. And maybe a little bit London too, two months. And you're living in Australia in

01:09

pre college or right right college. I studied abroad there, and then also after college, I started a company with a guy who

pre college or right right college. I studied abroad there, and then also after college, I started a company with a guy who

01:16

a a, like, kind of a, a well known entrepreneur in Australia.

a a, like, kind of a, a well known entrepreneur in Australia.

01:20

And that was pre college? That was after. But and and you went to college in Duke. Too. So you went from Duke to Australia. Yes. And at Australia, you did the sushi thing? No. I did that. Just add Duke, like, that's where it started. A few things in Australia. No. No. No. That was here. And then we moved to Denver because,

And that was pre college? That was after. But and and you went to college in Duke. Too. So you went from Duke to Australia. Yes. And at Australia, you did the sushi thing? No. I did that. Just add Duke, like, that's where it started. A few things in Australia. No. No. No. That was here. And then we moved to Denver because,

01:39

basically,

basically,

01:40

You know, like, people move to Silicon Valley because it's, like, that's the tech hub. And, like, people move to LA when they wanna be an actor. If you wanna start a restaurant, Denver is the place to go. So Chipotle started there. The first Chipotle started there. Noodles and company started there. Quiznos started there. Smash burger started there. There's like to seven or eight amounts of, like, open minded white people.

You know, like, people move to Silicon Valley because it's, like, that's the tech hub. And, like, people move to LA when they wanna be an actor. If you wanna start a restaurant, Denver is the place to go. So Chipotle started there. The first Chipotle started there. Noodles and company started there. Quiznos started there. Smash burger started there. There's like to seven or eight amounts of, like, open minded white people.

01:59

Yeah. You would love lunch.

Yeah. You would love lunch.

02:02

Lunch is a really big deal there.

Lunch is a really big deal there.

02:05

But they, like, so all the talent, the people who know how to, like, pick locations and, like, roll out restaurant operations, all this stuff, they're all still there. When when I was like, where are we gonna start? It was like, because Denver is kinda like a a big suburb. Like, this is not dumb we were. We were like, we wanna be the next Chipotle. How do you do that? Well, we're Chipotle start. Look and so literally we found the location across the street from the original Chipotle to open our restaurant. That's a great plan. And so we were like, yeah. And, like, I guess we'll just do the exact and then we were like, who rolled out their real estate? Oh, these two brokers? Okay. We'll we'll go talk to them. And then who did their this? Okay. We'll go talk to them. And that's basically That was our whole plan, of, like, figuring out how to start this restaurant.

But they, like, so all the talent, the people who know how to, like, pick locations and, like, roll out restaurant operations, all this stuff, they're all still there. When when I was like, where are we gonna start? It was like, because Denver is kinda like a a big suburb. Like, this is not dumb we were. We were like, we wanna be the next Chipotle. How do you do that? Well, we're Chipotle start. Look and so literally we found the location across the street from the original Chipotle to open our restaurant. That's a great plan. And so we were like, yeah. And, like, I guess we'll just do the exact and then we were like, who rolled out their real estate? Oh, these two brokers? Okay. We'll we'll go talk to them. And then who did their this? Okay. We'll go talk to them. And that's basically That was our whole plan, of, like, figuring out how to start this restaurant.

02:41

And so we just moved

And so we just moved

02:43

to Denver because and it was it was funny.

to Denver because and it was it was funny.

02:46

My two cofounder, my two two best friends at the time, Trevor and Dan. You're not really a cofounder of a of a of a restaurant. Yeah. Co owner, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. That should have been the signal one that this was not a great idea. It was like founding what.

My two cofounder, my two two best friends at the time, Trevor and Dan. You're not really a cofounder of a of a of a restaurant. Yeah. Co owner, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. That should have been the signal one that this was not a great idea. It was like founding what.

03:05

My father-in-law owns a moving company. He doesn't call himself, like, the founder of Creator.

My father-in-law owns a moving company. He doesn't call himself, like, the founder of Creator.

03:11

Yeah. She's the owner. Yeah. That's fair. So

Yeah. She's the owner. Yeah. That's fair. So

03:15

Me, my two friends were trying to eat sushi, and we basically started this thing. And they were, like, we were at Duke, so they were just trying to find a location near us. And,

Me, my two friends were trying to eat sushi, and we basically started this thing. And they were, like, we were at Duke, so they were just trying to find a location near us. And,

03:23

I had gone, I'd actually quit the startup. I didn't really tell people this, but I basically when I graduated, I got a really good job offer.

I had gone, I'd actually quit the startup. I didn't really tell people this, but I basically when I graduated, I got a really good job offer.

03:30

And it was a hundred twenty thousand dollars in Indonesia.

And it was a hundred twenty thousand dollars in Indonesia.

03:33

And so and my sister was working at the place, and the guy wanted to my sister was doing good jobs. And he's Okay. I'll hire, you know, we need more. You're the guy who end up going with the prison? I went to prison. So,

And so and my sister was working at the place, and the guy wanted to my sister was doing good jobs. And he's Okay. I'll hire, you know, we need more. You're the guy who end up going with the prison? I went to prison. So,

03:42

I take the job. And I'm like, I told my friends, again, like, stupid. I was like, I'm gonna go learn a bunch here, and then dudes, when I come back, think about how smart I'll be. And they were just like, okay. I guess we'll just keep working on it over here. Like, total jerk move. I just, like, moved and took this job in a month and yeah. In month, you were looking for, like, a mafia guy who, like, did, like, junk bonds or what did he do? No. He just he basically what he had done was he he's like a dropout of second grade or something like that. So he's like, he basically didn't speak English. So my boss never spoke English to me.

I take the job. And I'm like, I told my friends, again, like, stupid. I was like, I'm gonna go learn a bunch here, and then dudes, when I come back, think about how smart I'll be. And they were just like, okay. I guess we'll just keep working on it over here. Like, total jerk move. I just, like, moved and took this job in a month and yeah. In month, you were looking for, like, a mafia guy who, like, did, like, junk bonds or what did he do? No. He just he basically what he had done was he he's like a dropout of second grade or something like that. So he's like, he basically didn't speak English. So my boss never spoke English to me.

04:14

Only like, broken words, crazy guy. Like,

Only like, broken words, crazy guy. Like,

04:18

you walk into his office, and there's four,

you walk into his office, and there's four,

04:21

like executive assistance or EAs or secretaries or whatever, and each of them have a giant TV screen, and it's just his email because he can't read or type. And so they would say out loud his email

like executive assistance or EAs or secretaries or whatever, and each of them have a giant TV screen, and it's just his email because he can't read or type. And so they would say out loud his email

04:32

this person emailed you saying this, and he would just dictate who's been pacing around. He'd just say, tell them we're not doing the deal unless blah blah blah. And then one would be typing it. Then the next one would be like, hey, you gotta another email from this person. So there's just four screens like that. And they were just He's just like the brain. Yeah. He's just talking out loud. Yeah. K literally can't read it right. Just like his hands. And then when p and so what he was doing was what his his genius plan was, he was like, he recognized this arbitrage opportunity that was illegal, which is why he went to jail, which was that US companies wanted to do business in Indonesia. Indonesia is like, I don't know, maybe the fifth largest population in the world. It's got ton of natural resources like coal.

this person emailed you saying this, and he would just dictate who's been pacing around. He'd just say, tell them we're not doing the deal unless blah blah blah. And then one would be typing it. Then the next one would be like, hey, you gotta another email from this person. So there's just four screens like that. And they were just He's just like the brain. Yeah. He's just talking out loud. Yeah. K literally can't read it right. Just like his hands. And then when p and so what he was doing was what his his genius plan was, he was like, he recognized this arbitrage opportunity that was illegal, which is why he went to jail, which was that US companies wanted to do business in Indonesia. Indonesia is like, I don't know, maybe the fifth largest population in the world. It's got ton of natural resources like coal.

05:06

And they so ExxonMobil,

And they so ExxonMobil,

05:08

BP, all the Conoco Phillips, they all wanted this coal. But if you go there and you're trying to get the rights, you go to the auction and they're like,

BP, all the Conoco Phillips, they all wanted this coal. But if you go there and you're trying to get the rights, you go to the auction and they're like,

05:15

actually, that guy owns it. My cousin owns it. And they're like, what where was the process? They're like, yeah, the process was the middle of the night. You don't need to know about Yeah. Deal it. Basically, you gotta bribe somebody to get something. So what he was doing was he was like, oh, they want this.

actually, that guy owns it. My cousin owns it. And they're like, what where was the process? They're like, yeah, the process was the middle of the night. You don't need to know about Yeah. Deal it. Basically, you gotta bribe somebody to get something. So what he was doing was he was like, oh, they want this.

05:29

So I'll just go and bribe all the local officials.

So I'll just go and bribe all the local officials.

05:32

Get the pro I'll get the leases,

Get the pro I'll get the leases,

05:34

and then I'll just sell it. So he bought up for two million dollars total.

and then I'll just sell it. So he bought up for two million dollars total.

05:39

Like this huge amount of coal, and then he sold each piece for twenty million.

Like this huge amount of coal, and then he sold each piece for twenty million.

05:45

And he amassed five hundred million dollars over the course of, like, three years just doing that. And so when but Like, liquid. So he was liquid.

And he amassed five hundred million dollars over the course of, like, three years just doing that. And so when but Like, liquid. So he was liquid.

05:54

He Uber liquid. Like, if you if you did something, if you, like, did a good job with the negotiation or meeting a contract, you'd come into work and he just hands you keys to, like, a BMW or Mercedes or Rolls Royce, and then you he'd be like, that was your bonus. Like, there's no set, like But did he have paper? Who's who's whose name was on the title?

He Uber liquid. Like, if you if you did something, if you, like, did a good job with the negotiation or meeting a contract, you'd come into work and he just hands you keys to, like, a BMW or Mercedes or Rolls Royce, and then you he'd be like, that was your bonus. Like, there's no set, like But did he have paper? Who's who's whose name was on the title?

06:10

Of the car? Yeah. Everything's his. Like, we lived in this, like, four seasons resort, but it's his apartment, but you get to live there. Everything he owned, and then he owned it under seventy two shell companies. So you could be like, hey, what's this name? And then there's, like, this one woman who owns the file cabinet. She's got all these companies inside. And so that's what this guy's gig was. And so he was basically he he was like, I don't need to know. He's like, he would just talk to engineers, a technologist, and be like, what would you do with this call? He's like, great.

Of the car? Yeah. Everything's his. Like, we lived in this, like, four seasons resort, but it's his apartment, but you get to live there. Everything he owned, and then he owned it under seventy two shell companies. So you could be like, hey, what's this name? And then there's, like, this one woman who owns the file cabinet. She's got all these companies inside. And so that's what this guy's gig was. And so he was basically he he was like, I don't need to know. He's like, he would just talk to engineers, a technologist, and be like, what would you do with this call? He's like, great.

06:38

Then when when he would get a, like, he had, like, all these geologists on and he'd be like, do a survey or do a report that says this is fit for that purpose. And they're like, well, it's kind of fit. He's like, make it very fit. And he just, like, basically fudged the whole thing. It's my my impression. What do you think made him special? He was just bulling and willing to immediately cheat in a lot of steel. And he wasn't cheating, like, he was just, like, playing a That's how business is done in Indonesia. You don't get Like, that's how the property process is done. If you don't want to do that, you cannot play. So you think that he was playing by the rules of the game, or was he on that role? By the unspoken street rules of the game.

Then when when he would get a, like, he had, like, all these geologists on and he'd be like, do a survey or do a report that says this is fit for that purpose. And they're like, well, it's kind of fit. He's like, make it very fit. And he just, like, basically fudged the whole thing. It's my my impression. What do you think made him special? He was just bulling and willing to immediately cheat in a lot of steel. And he wasn't cheating, like, he was just, like, playing a That's how business is done in Indonesia. You don't get Like, that's how the property process is done. If you don't want to do that, you cannot play. So you think that he was playing by the rules of the game, or was he on that role? By the unspoken street rules of the game.

07:12

On that part. And then on top of that, he was, like, smart and ruthless. So for example,

On that part. And then on top of that, he was, like, smart and ruthless. So for example,

07:17

I met him because he met my dad. My dad worked at BP for, like, thirty And my dad was known as an expert at this one technology to get value out of coal. You do this process. You turn coal that's not that valuable into something pretty valuable. So he meets my dad and my he's like, tell me about this. And my dad's talking to him, and my dad's like, do you understand, like, these things that I'm saying? He's like, I understand

I met him because he met my dad. My dad worked at BP for, like, thirty And my dad was known as an expert at this one technology to get value out of coal. You do this process. You turn coal that's not that valuable into something pretty valuable. So he meets my dad and my he's like, tell me about this. And my dad's talking to him, and my dad's like, do you understand, like, these things that I'm saying? He's like, I understand

07:35

that BP will want my coal basically. He's like, I understand that, like, companies will believe this thing. You're saying there's potential here. That's all I need to know.

that BP will want my coal basically. He's like, I understand that, like, companies will believe this thing. You're saying there's potential here. That's all I need to know.

07:45

And my dad was like, but, like, should we test it or, like, he's like, no. No. No. Why would we test it? Let them test it. They're buying it. They can test it. And, like, they could see for themselves. So, like, you know, if it works, it doesn't work out, why would I add risk into this by, like, doing this? And my and my dad was just talking to me, and then my dad at one day goes, I think I've told this story before, but he goes, he's like, he's like, I probably am, like, a top five expert at this one coal, like, technology

And my dad was like, but, like, should we test it or, like, he's like, no. No. No. Why would we test it? Let them test it. They're buying it. They can test it. And, like, they could see for themselves. So, like, you know, if it works, it doesn't work out, why would I add risk into this by, like, doing this? And my and my dad was just talking to me, and then my dad at one day goes, I think I've told this story before, but he goes, he's like, he's like, I probably am, like, a top five expert at this one coal, like, technology

08:09

in the world.

in the world.

08:10

You know pretty much nothing about Cole.

You know pretty much nothing about Cole.

08:13

Yet I've worked my whole career, and I've been making a hundred thousand, hundred fifty thousand, two hundred thousand a year. And you're gonna make, like, three hundred four hundred million this year. You're gonna make more money than me and I know more about this than you. He goes, yeah, of course. And he was just like he's like, yes. And,

Yet I've worked my whole career, and I've been making a hundred thousand, hundred fifty thousand, two hundred thousand a year. And you're gonna make, like, three hundred four hundred million this year. You're gonna make more money than me and I know more about this than you. He goes, yeah, of course. And he was just like he's like, yes. And,

08:29

you idiot? Yeah. Like, do you think that that's relevant, basically? It was just, like, so matter of fact about it. And so I was like, oh, wow.

you idiot? Yeah. Like, do you think that that's relevant, basically? It was just, like, so matter of fact about it. And so I was like, oh, wow.

08:36

So my job when when my work there was company comes in. He doesn't speak English. So he needed English speaker to do a meeting And then he would just do the pleasantries and the food and the drinks and all that stuff. And, like, you know, just like with a translator make that work, but he'd rely on us to, like, go over the presentation. What what was his name? Cokos.

So my job when when my work there was company comes in. He doesn't speak English. So he needed English speaker to do a meeting And then he would just do the pleasantries and the food and the drinks and all that stuff. And, like, you know, just like with a translator make that work, but he'd rely on us to, like, go over the presentation. What what was his name? Cokos.

08:54

You're like, alright, gentlemen, mister Kokos would like you to feel welcomed here and let you know that he's not here to play any games. Yeah. It will be like mister Kokos and these two young women will now, go to dinner with you guys, and I hope you have a great night. You know, like, because again, that's how business is done there. So you go to karaoke,

You're like, alright, gentlemen, mister Kokos would like you to feel welcomed here and let you know that he's not here to play any games. Yeah. It will be like mister Kokos and these two young women will now, go to dinner with you guys, and I hope you have a great night. You know, like, because again, that's how business is done there. So you go to karaoke,

09:10

if you know about all this. Like, Asian cultures. Like, you go to these karaoke rooms, and there's like, why are there these cute girls here? It's like bottle service at a club. Whether they prostitutes or something or I don't know. I've never, like, gotten that far into the the lion's den, but, like, there's something going on. Like, you know, there's some service or at is just flirtation or there's more. I I don't really know, but, like, all I know is this guy was getting mad deals done using this, like, workflow during the day. Love saying don't stop believing. Presenting at night. They're singing songs. Yeah. And so that was but that was a wild experience for me. So how long did this guy go to jail for?

if you know about all this. Like, Asian cultures. Like, you go to these karaoke rooms, and there's like, why are there these cute girls here? It's like bottle service at a club. Whether they prostitutes or something or I don't know. I've never, like, gotten that far into the the lion's den, but, like, there's something going on. Like, you know, there's some service or at is just flirtation or there's more. I I don't really know, but, like, all I know is this guy was getting mad deals done using this, like, workflow during the day. Love saying don't stop believing. Presenting at night. They're singing songs. Yeah. And so that was but that was a wild experience for me. So how long did this guy go to jail for?

09:41

Well, he died in jail. He's dead. So, Wow.

Well, he died in jail. He's dead. So, Wow.

09:45

Why do you think I'm sharing all this? Because I'm, like, less afraid now than I, like, I've never really talked about this stuff. I'm mentioning it since.

Why do you think I'm sharing all this? Because I'm, like, less afraid now than I, like, I've never really talked about this stuff. I'm mentioning it since.

09:51

I think he got, like, twenty years or something and he died a few years. He got cancer, died. Oh my He was a nice he was a he was really good to us. He was really nice to us. Mean, I So you think he was, like, again, I I asked this before you, like He was not evil. He was just doing business, by the way, that that game was done. Whoever was gonna own that land was gonna do that. He just decided it'll be me. And he got fabulously rich off of it. And all the things that seem really crazy to me was also, like, kinda standard practice in India and in China about like how business deals are done. Yeah. You drink a lot. You go out to the bars. You with the with the clients and like you You, you know, yeah, you'd you have to grease the the the the guy who's doing the deal, not necessarily so that you can win, but you won't get it if you don't tip everybody, basically. That's involved in the That's actually the that's the first time of two times that you've buttered up with a billionaire

I think he got, like, twenty years or something and he died a few years. He got cancer, died. Oh my He was a nice he was a he was really good to us. He was really nice to us. Mean, I So you think he was, like, again, I I asked this before you, like He was not evil. He was just doing business, by the way, that that game was done. Whoever was gonna own that land was gonna do that. He just decided it'll be me. And he got fabulously rich off of it. And all the things that seem really crazy to me was also, like, kinda standard practice in India and in China about like how business deals are done. Yeah. You drink a lot. You go out to the bars. You with the with the clients and like you You, you know, yeah, you'd you have to grease the the the the guy who's doing the deal, not necessarily so that you can win, but you won't get it if you don't tip everybody, basically. That's involved in the That's actually the that's the first time of two times that you've buttered up with a billionaire

10:38

who says, like, here's my playground. You can run it. So you the sushi thing, like, it was only mildly six it wasn't a success. Was not a success, though. But you moved to San Francisco and you got a job with Michael Birch. Right?

who says, like, here's my playground. You can run it. So you the sushi thing, like, it was only mildly six it wasn't a success. Was not a success, though. But you moved to San Francisco and you got a job with Michael Birch. Right?

10:50

That's right. And who who who was he at the time?

That's right. And who who who was he at the time?

10:53

He, by the way, Jonathan, the,

He, by the way, Jonathan, the,

10:56

hot wings are here. Would you mind getting him? So I don't I told you this when I got here. I was asking people, I was like, yeah. Me and Sam are in person. We're gonna just hang out. We're gonna have a a good conversation. How do we make how do we take advantage of the fact they're in person? And two the two first two people I say they go, get a bunch of hot wings. It'll make it hilarious. Try to have the same conversation while you're not wings. How do those milk?

hot wings are here. Would you mind getting him? So I don't I told you this when I got here. I was asking people, I was like, yeah. Me and Sam are in person. We're gonna just hang out. We're gonna have a a good conversation. How do we make how do we take advantage of the fact they're in person? And two the two first two people I say they go, get a bunch of hot wings. It'll make it hilarious. Try to have the same conversation while you're not wings. How do those milk?

11:16

Yeah. There's not. There's no sides.

Yeah. There's not. There's no sides.

11:20

So I moved to San Francisco

So I moved to San Francisco

11:22

pretty quickly. I'm like, god, this can't be it.

pretty quickly. I'm like, god, this can't be it.

11:24

Like No, dude. It sucks. Every day, I'm waking up at five in the morning. I'm driving to, like, the fucking fish market picking up the fresh tuna for the day or time. And then, like, the business was actually working. Like, we we did it as a cloud kitchen, and it was basically making money. I was like, this can't be it.

Like No, dude. It sucks. Every day, I'm waking up at five in the morning. I'm driving to, like, the fucking fish market picking up the fresh tuna for the day or time. And then, like, the business was actually working. Like, we we did it as a cloud kitchen, and it was basically making money. I was like, this can't be it.

11:38

Luckily, at that time, my dad

Luckily, at that time, my dad

11:40

had met a guy in Australia who had sold his company. And in passing Did your dad is like this hooking it up? A

had met a guy in Australia who had sold his company. And in passing Did your dad is like this hooking it up? A

11:47

king. He met this guy, and he was he was like, in passing, he's like, you know, what are what are your kids do? And he's like, oh, my daughter does this, and my son is doing this, like, you know, sushi start up thing. You should check it out there. They they write this blog that's really entertaining. It was like, I was we were creating a word we had a wordpress blog that was really just for our own amusement, but, like, We used to do a lot of stuff to make content that in our mind was, like, somehow gonna help the sushi thing. It didn't help the sushi thing at all, but what it did do is anybody who found that really got behind us. They, like, kinda started rooting for us. Or they thought these guys are good hustlers. They're entertaining blah blah blah. So this guy who had just sold his company for, like, four hundred fifty million.

king. He met this guy, and he was he was like, in passing, he's like, you know, what are what are your kids do? And he's like, oh, my daughter does this, and my son is doing this, like, you know, sushi start up thing. You should check it out there. They they write this blog that's really entertaining. It was like, I was we were creating a word we had a wordpress blog that was really just for our own amusement, but, like, We used to do a lot of stuff to make content that in our mind was, like, somehow gonna help the sushi thing. It didn't help the sushi thing at all, but what it did do is anybody who found that really got behind us. They, like, kinda started rooting for us. Or they thought these guys are good hustlers. They're entertaining blah blah blah. So this guy who had just sold his company for, like, four hundred fifty million.

12:24

And he was looking for his next thing to do. He had a non compete,

And he was looking for his next thing to do. He had a non compete,

12:28

with current with the business he knew. So he knew he needed to do something new, but he didn't know what. And he read our blog and he was like, oh, yeah. I wanna do business with you guys. Like, so he flew us out to Australia, and we interviewed for a job with him. And he was like, this guy Nathan Mitchell. So he's, he's based in Brisbane,

with current with the business he knew. So he knew he needed to do something new, but he didn't know what. And he read our blog and he was like, oh, yeah. I wanna do business with you guys. Like, so he flew us out to Australia, and we interviewed for a job with him. And he was like, this guy Nathan Mitchell. So he's, he's based in Brisbane,

12:45

and, his family

and, his family

12:46

had a drilling company, sells a drilling company. And so he wanna do business with my dad. He wanna do business with us and he was like, okay, let's put a team together and let's do this. Like That's such a cool way of saying that. You just I wanna do business with you. Yeah. Well, that's what I told myself. I don't know what he I don't know what he wanted. Words in his mouth, but he,

had a drilling company, sells a drilling company. And so he wanna do business with my dad. He wanna do business with us and he was like, okay, let's put a team together and let's do this. Like That's such a cool way of saying that. You just I wanna do business with you. Yeah. Well, that's what I told myself. I don't know what he I don't know what he wanted. Words in his mouth, but he,

13:02

alright. Here we go.

alright. Here we go.

13:05

So there's three there's three flavors.

So there's three there's three flavors.

13:07

There's, like, a sweet, spicy, a spicy, and then what they called very, very spicy. Which one's a very, very spicy one that fits this one? I'm not touching that one. You think it's that one? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. The six, I see. And the buffalo. Alright. I'll leave the buffalo in a minute.

There's, like, a sweet, spicy, a spicy, and then what they called very, very spicy. Which one's a very, very spicy one that fits this one? I'm not touching that one. You think it's that one? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. The six, I see. And the buffalo. Alright. I'll leave the buffalo in a minute.

13:23

So

So

13:24

Basically, if I if we ever answer a question poorly or something, we gotta eat. I don't know. We'll we'll make up a game. I'm gonna eat him because I'm hungry.

Basically, if I if we ever answer a question poorly or something, we gotta eat. I don't know. We'll we'll make up a game. I'm gonna eat him because I'm hungry.

13:31

So, basically, he's like, alright.

So, basically, he's like, alright.

13:34

I got a bunch of, like, smart engineers, but this will be so academic. Unless we get some hustlers, you guys are hustlers, join me and let's make this happen. He gave us a a job offer. Was just happy to live in Australia. So I was like, great. I'll do this. And so we started that company together as a biotech company in Australia. As that goes on,

I got a bunch of, like, smart engineers, but this will be so academic. Unless we get some hustlers, you guys are hustlers, join me and let's make this happen. He gave us a a job offer. Was just happy to live in Australia. So I was like, great. I'll do this. And so we started that company together as a biotech company in Australia. As that goes on,

13:50

it gets to a point that I thought was, you know, like, kind of the transition point where it's like, oh, we sign this deal. It's like ready to, like, change hands or whatever. I was like, alright. I'm gonna move to Silicon Valley because I don't know about sushi. I don't know about biotech, but I know I like this early stage stuff. So I applied at two jobs.

it gets to a point that I thought was, you know, like, kind of the transition point where it's like, oh, we sign this deal. It's like ready to, like, change hands or whatever. I was like, alright. I'm gonna move to Silicon Valley because I don't know about sushi. I don't know about biotech, but I know I like this early stage stuff. So I applied at two jobs.

14:06

Stripe,

Stripe,

14:07

And then this place nobody ever heard of called Monkey Inferno.

And then this place nobody ever heard of called Monkey Inferno.

14:10

Stripe would have been pretty sick. It was probably thirty employees at the time. Oh my god.

Stripe would have been pretty sick. It was probably thirty employees at the time. Oh my god.

14:16

So if I joined even as just like what I was joining as like a Biz dev manager or something like that, I probably would have made like ten or twenty million dollars if I just stayed there. You think twenty? I think so. Yeah. Because I I kinda I went back one day and I did the math. And I was like, I I don't know. There's a bunch of assumptions, like, when you vest out, would you get a promotion? Like, you know, some bunch of things like that, but based on when it was like twenty

So if I joined even as just like what I was joining as like a Biz dev manager or something like that, I probably would have made like ten or twenty million dollars if I just stayed there. You think twenty? I think so. Yeah. Because I I kinda I went back one day and I did the math. And I was like, I I don't know. There's a bunch of assumptions, like, when you vest out, would you get a promotion? Like, you know, some bunch of things like that, but based on when it was like twenty

14:37

twenty twelve, early twenty twelve at the time. Which like a lot of people well, I tell people a story about me and they're like, oh, you would have gotten fired. And I actually think they're probably true. Your case, I think you wouldn't have. No. I would've played that guy. I like that. I'm good at that. Because that that shit was exciting. And you seem like you would've gotten I don't know those guys, but you seem like you would've got got along great with them. Yeah. Like, you're you're more of a cowboy.

twenty twelve, early twenty twelve at the time. Which like a lot of people well, I tell people a story about me and they're like, oh, you would have gotten fired. And I actually think they're probably true. Your case, I think you wouldn't have. No. I would've played that guy. I like that. I'm good at that. Because that that shit was exciting. And you seem like you would've gotten I don't know those guys, but you seem like you would've got got along great with them. Yeah. Like, you're you're more of a cowboy.

14:57

Like But I think you legitimately would have made tens of millions of dollars. I think so too. But it all worked out in the end. Like, I have less than that, but I was able to, like, got myself into a position where I was able to do more. So, basically, it's like, either, like, self development or just, like, getting lucky with those shares.

Like But I think you legitimately would have made tens of millions of dollars. I think so too. But it all worked out in the end. Like, I have less than that, but I was able to, like, got myself into a position where I was able to do more. So, basically, it's like, either, like, self development or just, like, getting lucky with those shares.

15:15

And not entirely lucky. Like, I only applied to Stripe because I thought that was gonna be a winner, but, like, it still would have been lucky that it got to be such a huge winner. Could you tell early on that it was gonna be a huge winner?

And not entirely lucky. Like, I only applied to Stripe because I thought that was gonna be a winner, but, like, it still would have been lucky that it got to be such a huge winner. Could you tell early on that it was gonna be a huge winner?

15:27

Yeah. I don't know why. I think was just, like, at the time, I was reading a lot of Paul Graham essays. I was looking at why why Combinator companies. Within white Combinator,

Yeah. I don't know why. I think was just, like, at the time, I was reading a lot of Paul Graham essays. I was looking at why why Combinator companies. Within white Combinator,

15:34

those founders, I watched some of their interviews. I'm a big, like, you bet on the person type of guy, like, you know, the person is who who builds all the value. I never

those founders, I watched some of their interviews. I'm a big, like, you bet on the person type of guy, like, you know, the person is who who builds all the value. I never

15:42

talked to the founders. I I basically blew I I had one interview with this guy, Ben,

talked to the founders. I I basically blew I I had one interview with this guy, Ben,

15:48

And,

And,

15:49

he and I blew it. Like, I had the strongest warm introduction. That guy's mentor was also my

he and I blew it. Like, I had the strongest warm introduction. That guy's mentor was also my

15:55

mentor.

mentor.

15:56

And the mentor thought so highly of me. He was like How did you blow? Were you just cocky? No. They did a a sell me this pen type of question. Oh, that's a bullshit. It wasn't a pen. He was like, he told me he's like, I'm not gonna do a sell me this pen type of thing, but I am. But I'm gonna do sell me the software.

And the mentor thought so highly of me. He was like How did you blow? Were you just cocky? No. They did a a sell me this pen type of question. Oh, that's a bullshit. It wasn't a pen. He was like, he told me he's like, I'm not gonna do a sell me this pen type of thing, but I am. But I'm gonna do sell me the software.

16:10

And I was like, okay. What, what's the software? And he's like, You pick. You pick. And so I'm, like, it's my first job interview ever. I've never interviewed for a job. And I go and I'm, like, basically dating a Angelina Jolie. Like, Stripe is my first job interview.

And I was like, okay. What, what's the software? And he's like, You pick. You pick. And so I'm, like, it's my first job interview ever. I've never interviewed for a job. And I go and I'm, like, basically dating a Angelina Jolie. Like, Stripe is my first job interview.

16:23

And I'm like, not prepared at all. And he's like, what's a piece of software you like? I'm like, I don't know, like, so I'm trying to think of what software other people like rather than what I like. So I was like, base camp, like thirty seven singles. I I knew that was like a popular those guys are popular. You didn't even use it though. And I didn't use it though. So I didn't know what to say. But now I'm pot committed. I didn't and I didn't wanna admit that hey. I just picked a random company that I don't actually use. Like, that didn't make any sense either. And so I'm like fumbling and stumbling. And I no. The the the way I got messed up was I started to explain it like I would I'd be like, you know, so what I would say if I was selling Yes. No. Don't. He goes, no. Ring ring. Hello.

And I'm like, not prepared at all. And he's like, what's a piece of software you like? I'm like, I don't know, like, so I'm trying to think of what software other people like rather than what I like. So I was like, base camp, like thirty seven singles. I I knew that was like a popular those guys are popular. You didn't even use it though. And I didn't use it though. So I didn't know what to say. But now I'm pot committed. I didn't and I didn't wanna admit that hey. I just picked a random company that I don't actually use. Like, that didn't make any sense either. And so I'm like fumbling and stumbling. And I no. The the the way I got messed up was I started to explain it like I would I'd be like, you know, so what I would say if I was selling Yes. No. Don't. He goes, no. Ring ring. Hello.

16:58

Go. You're selling this thing to me now. And I was like, oh, god. And I just Yeah. I think that's a bullshit. I'm gonna interview someone, by the way. I think that's I think those games are stupid.

Go. You're selling this thing to me now. And I was like, oh, god. And I just Yeah. I think that's a bullshit. I'm gonna interview someone, by the way. I think that's I think those games are stupid.

17:08

Yeah. I don't know. Like,

Yeah. I don't know. Like,

17:10

I guess, yeah, I guess I would agree. I don't wanna say it's stupid just because I sucked at it. Like, that's not a good reason. But tried doing this when I interviewed the best way So the the best way I found interviewing someone is I just wanna know if I enjoy being around you. And the only way I'm gonna judge if, like, you're qualified is by just looking at your history.

I guess, yeah, I guess I would agree. I don't wanna say it's stupid just because I sucked at it. Like, that's not a good reason. But tried doing this when I interviewed the best way So the the best way I found interviewing someone is I just wanna know if I enjoy being around you. And the only way I'm gonna judge if, like, you're qualified is by just looking at your history.

17:25

Yeah. That's that's fair. Like, I just wanna see what you've done in the past, and I'm gonna talk to your old coworkers. And then I'm just here to decide if, like, this is a good culture fit. I, I heard of somebody got he's got Kyle Cimini. He's like a a VC. He's he put out a post or he put out some interview or whatever where he said, He's like, yeah, there's only one way to apply to my firm. We I don't look at any resumes or reference nothing. He goes, just take one of our existing blog posts and write it better. Like, write a write a better blog post than we have on our blog. You could take the same topic or a different topic, just write an amazing blog post. And I was actually, like, that's kind of a good test as a good initial filter. I would still wanna talk to the person, but, like, that's a really good initial filter because when you see someone right, you see how they think. Yeah. And and how how how good they are at, like, how good they're writing a blog post is actually a pretty good test for a lot of things.

Yeah. That's that's fair. Like, I just wanna see what you've done in the past, and I'm gonna talk to your old coworkers. And then I'm just here to decide if, like, this is a good culture fit. I, I heard of somebody got he's got Kyle Cimini. He's like a a VC. He's he put out a post or he put out some interview or whatever where he said, He's like, yeah, there's only one way to apply to my firm. We I don't look at any resumes or reference nothing. He goes, just take one of our existing blog posts and write it better. Like, write a write a better blog post than we have on our blog. You could take the same topic or a different topic, just write an amazing blog post. And I was actually, like, that's kind of a good test as a good initial filter. I would still wanna talk to the person, but, like, that's a really good initial filter because when you see someone right, you see how they think. Yeah. And and how how how good they are at, like, how good they're writing a blog post is actually a pretty good test for a lot of things.

18:14

So so I'm kind of into that as a test. What was oh, my god. He's brought milk. Is that milk? Or it's tinted glasses, so it almost makes it look like eggnog.

So so I'm kind of into that as a test. What was oh, my god. He's brought milk. Is that milk? Or it's tinted glasses, so it almost makes it look like eggnog.

18:24

Milk we

Milk we

18:25

Should we start with,

Should we start with,

18:26

with the medium? Are you gonna start with the light? Yeah. But do you want Buffalo or sweet?

with the medium? Are you gonna start with the light? Yeah. But do you want Buffalo or sweet?

18:31

Well, that's the should we go want buffalo. I don't want sweet. Okay. Here's the buffalo one. We'll do we'll start with the buffalo. The sweet can be our, like, palate cleanser.

Well, that's the should we go want buffalo. I don't want sweet. Okay. Here's the buffalo one. We'll do we'll start with the buffalo. The sweet can be our, like, palate cleanser.

18:40

Nothing like eating on microphone, by the way. Yeah.

Nothing like eating on microphone, by the way. Yeah.

18:43

Hot wings are the worst. Do you have any paper towels? You gotta hear me nine

Hot wings are the worst. Do you have any paper towels? You gotta hear me nine

18:47

Alright. This is the hot ones episode of my first million. Yes. Thank you.

Alright. This is the hot ones episode of my first million. Yes. Thank you.

18:54

I'm doing no milk for What brand? I mean, what what restaurant?

I'm doing no milk for What brand? I mean, what what restaurant?

18:58

Shout out to our sponsor, wing it, providing these wings today.

Shout out to our sponsor, wing it, providing these wings today.

19:02

Dude,

Dude,

19:03

I used to live in an Asian neighborhood here in San Francisco. The and the Chinese and, like, Hong Kong restaurants would make hot wings They are the worst at making those hot wings because they put, like, it's too crazy. It's too breaded

I used to live in an Asian neighborhood here in San Francisco. The and the Chinese and, like, Hong Kong restaurants would make hot wings They are the worst at making those hot wings because they put, like, it's too crazy. It's too breaded

19:13

and they, put, like, sticky shit on it. You know what I'm saying? You know, I don't know what that that You know that sauce that, like, you're very I don't know. Dude, have you ever had, like, lunch or dinner at, like, one of the Chinese restaurants on the inner sunset? Yes. Like, it's like their hot wings are like breaded, like, fried chicken, but then dipped in, like, sticky sauces. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what those are gonna I think that's I hate that sticky shit. All the Chinese Russians I go to, I was like, I was like, I don't know what that sticky crap is, but don't give me that please. Like, I wanna know. Also, I went wing in because I knew you would not want,

and they, put, like, sticky shit on it. You know what I'm saying? You know, I don't know what that that You know that sauce that, like, you're very I don't know. Dude, have you ever had, like, lunch or dinner at, like, one of the Chinese restaurants on the inner sunset? Yes. Like, it's like their hot wings are like breaded, like, fried chicken, but then dipped in, like, sticky sauces. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what those are gonna I think that's I hate that sticky shit. All the Chinese Russians I go to, I was like, I was like, I don't know what that sticky crap is, but don't give me that please. Like, I wanna know. Also, I went wing in because I knew you would not want,

19:42

boneless wing. Yeah. I'm not an idiot.

boneless wing. Yeah. I'm not an idiot.

19:45

I would've done boneless. See, that's such a meat thing. Domestic

I would've done boneless. See, that's such a meat thing. Domestic

19:49

No. This is this this this is You're like, feral cat.

No. This is this this this is You're like, feral cat.

19:53

You know the right way to eat these is you just well,

You know the right way to eat these is you just well,

19:56

it's easier with the other ones, but you gotta stick the whole thing in your mouth and just pull it out.

it's easier with the other ones, but you gotta stick the whole thing in your mouth and just pull it out.

20:00

Yeah. That's like I've seen so many TikToks with that. Everyone who shows that is fat. A hundred percent of people who have a strong opinion about

Yeah. That's like I've seen so many TikToks with that. Everyone who shows that is fat. A hundred percent of people who have a strong opinion about

20:08

How to eat buffalo wings? Are fat?

How to eat buffalo wings? Are fat?

20:12

It's a healthy thing to eat.

It's a healthy thing to eat.

20:14

What? Wings? Mhmm.

What? Wings? Mhmm.

20:15

This is good. This one's not too spicy at all.

This is good. This one's not too spicy at all.

20:18

What was monkey inferno when you applied? So I, I apply, and it's basically it's a startup studio.

What was monkey inferno when you applied? So I, I apply, and it's basically it's a startup studio.

20:26

Or an ideal lab. I forgot what they called themselves at the time. Basically, it was like sixteen engineers, designer, one

Or an ideal lab. I forgot what they called themselves at the time. Basically, it was like sixteen engineers, designer, one

20:33

designer,

designer,

20:36

And then Michael and Zoe Birch, who were the, like, the owners and the the husband and wife couple that was married. Because they were They sold a company for, like, eight hundred and fifty million dollars.

And then Michael and Zoe Birch, who were the, like, the owners and the the husband and wife couple that was married. Because they were They sold a company for, like, eight hundred and fifty million dollars.

20:45

Hundred fifty million.

Hundred fifty million.

20:47

This is how you do it. Do it into the camera. Wow. Clean.

This is how you do it. Do it into the camera. Wow. Clean.

20:54

Clean.

Clean.

20:57

Yeah. It looks like you're having fun over there.

Yeah. It looks like you're having fun over there.

21:02

I'm a stick to just nibbling on the outside. It's all good for me.

I'm a stick to just nibbling on the outside. It's all good for me.

21:07

I like I like my

I like I like my

21:09

I like my my wing bones. Like, I like my women.

I like my my wing bones. Like, I like my women.

21:13

Clean.

Clean.

21:16

I thought you said, in your mouth, I was like, where is it going with this?

I thought you said, in your mouth, I was like, where is it going with this?

21:21

Oh, wow.

Oh, wow.

21:23

Yeah. Some of you for it was basically, like, this guy's done what I wanna do. So let me just go work with him. Again, like,

Yeah. Some of you for it was basically, like, this guy's done what I wanna do. So let me just go work with him. Again, like,

21:31

Well, how did Chipotle start? I don't know. Or how should we be successful? Like, the next Chipotle, let's just go where Chipotle started and follow their footsteps. Same thing. I was like, This guy has built several tech companies,

Well, how did Chipotle start? I don't know. Or how should we be successful? Like, the next Chipotle, let's just go where Chipotle started and follow their footsteps. Same thing. I was like, This guy has built several tech companies,

21:40

like maybe three or four companies that have gotten millions of users.

like maybe three or four companies that have gotten millions of users.

21:44

Millions of dollars and one huge one for eight hundred fifty million. And when he sold that company,

Millions of dollars and one huge one for eight hundred fifty million. And when he sold that company,

21:49

that company is considered

that company is considered

21:51

I remember this article where they said, here's the top ten worst acquisitions of all time. Number one was Mark Cuban's thing where he sold to Yahoo for two or three billion. Right. Number two is Bebo which sold to AOL for like eight hundred fifty or or whatever.

I remember this article where they said, here's the top ten worst acquisitions of all time. Number one was Mark Cuban's thing where he sold to Yahoo for two or three billion. Right. Number two is Bebo which sold to AOL for like eight hundred fifty or or whatever.

22:03

And when he was doing that deal, he must have seen the numbers and been like, oh, Facebook's way better. Have, like, three weeks to get rid of this thing. Yeah. He told me that story. Basically, he was like, yeah, Facebook was just growing super fast,

And when he was doing that deal, he must have seen the numbers and been like, oh, Facebook's way better. Have, like, three weeks to get rid of this thing. Yeah. He told me that story. Basically, he was like, yeah, Facebook was just growing super fast,

22:15

and they were just better Like, they were just better at what they were doing. And he's like, we were just getting swamped with, like, we had all these, like, spam bot problems. And then we had, like, you know, this other problem. And then, like, VCs wanted us to make money. And this this is our, you know, I hired this president. She wanted to expand and make money doing these, like, deals with Oh, M and M is is doing a takeover of the homepage. And, like, wow, we made, like, half a million dollars doing that, you think, but the case may be of the rapper.

and they were just better Like, they were just better at what they were doing. And he's like, we were just getting swamped with, like, we had all these, like, spam bot problems. And then we had, like, you know, this other problem. And then, like, VCs wanted us to make money. And this this is our, you know, I hired this president. She wanted to expand and make money doing these, like, deals with Oh, M and M is is doing a takeover of the homepage. And, like, wow, we made, like, half a million dollars doing that, you think, but the case may be of the rapper.

22:40

They can't. Yeah.

They can't. Yeah.

22:42

But they actually did have other stuff. Like, they they started a reality TV show called, like, I forgot what it's called. Like Joanna or something like that. Yeah. That ain't gonna work. But, like, at the time, MySpace was, like, MySpace was one model. They were, like, the media company. They sold for four hundred, five hundred million. Bebo was looking at that. It was, like, okay. We could do that, like, Hollywood.

But they actually did have other stuff. Like, they they started a reality TV show called, like, I forgot what it's called. Like Joanna or something like that. Yeah. That ain't gonna work. But, like, at the time, MySpace was, like, MySpace was one model. They were, like, the media company. They sold for four hundred, five hundred million. Bebo was looking at that. It was, like, okay. We could do that, like, Hollywood.

22:59

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At, you know, big advertising, big marketing thing. And Facebook was, like, blue website,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At, you know, big advertising, big marketing thing. And Facebook was, like, blue website,

23:05

no ads,

no ads,

23:07

just focused on photos, engagement, growth, like, all that stuff, and they were just growing like crazy because I and they had a more controlled growth because they were doing college to college first. So they were able to, like,

just focused on photos, engagement, growth, like, all that stuff, and they were just growing like crazy because I and they had a more controlled growth because they were doing college to college first. So they were able to, like,

23:17

not have all this like spam and all this other problems because they were gated by you had to have a university email address for a while. And he sells company and he has all how much do you think he was worth after he sold? Well, they owned, like, seventy percent. So, you know, total public math, but, you know, seventy percent of fifty and then half -- taxes to taxes.

not have all this like spam and all this other problems because they were gated by you had to have a university email address for a while. And he sells company and he has all how much do you think he was worth after he sold? Well, they owned, like, seventy percent. So, you know, total public math, but, you know, seventy percent of fifty and then half -- taxes to taxes.

23:34

Hundreds of millions of dollars. Hundreds of millions of dollars. And he comes to America and he basically hires, like But he had He was already in America the whole time. Okay. He was here. He was in the literally this part of the bear. Oh, I didn't know that. So if he was here, he buys a place in San Francisco and he hires ten engineers,

Hundreds of millions of dollars. Hundreds of millions of dollars. And he comes to America and he basically hires, like But he had He was already in America the whole time. Okay. He was here. He was in the literally this part of the bear. Oh, I didn't know that. So if he was here, he buys a place in San Francisco and he hires ten engineers,

23:49

and then they're all just working on crazy shit. He buys seven condos.

and then they're all just working on crazy shit. He buys seven condos.

23:53

Smashes down the walls to create one huge office.

Smashes down the walls to create one huge office.

23:57

And it was the same office that the beats by Dray, headphones were designed in and stuff like that. So that was one part of the office. The rest were just condos, and he builds he leaves one as a condo that was there. You saw that. The bedroom that was there. And then he puts a bar in there. He puts a, like, a, whole ping pong kitchen, entertainment area, and then huge office space, where we all worked. So day one, I get off a plane from Australia. I come straight for the airport

And it was the same office that the beats by Dray, headphones were designed in and stuff like that. So that was one part of the office. The rest were just condos, and he builds he leaves one as a condo that was there. You saw that. The bedroom that was there. And then he puts a bar in there. He puts a, like, a, whole ping pong kitchen, entertainment area, and then huge office space, where we all worked. So day one, I get off a plane from Australia. I come straight for the airport

24:21

to the office to interview,

to the office to interview,

24:23

and

and

24:24

I get there a little early and write a She was a Burlington co factory. So I walked I walked to the Burlington co factory and I'm just standing there in the grocery store with a suitcase. Yeah.

I get there a little early and write a She was a Burlington co factory. So I walked I walked to the Burlington co factory and I'm just standing there in the grocery store with a suitcase. Yeah.

24:35

And they're like, what is this guy doing? You had a suit done? Suitcase. But what what oh, suitcase. What were you wearing? I was just wearing, like, you know,

And they're like, what is this guy doing? You had a suit done? Suitcase. But what what oh, suitcase. What were you wearing? I was just wearing, like, you know,

24:43

tech casual.

tech casual.

24:45

That, like, trench coats and friendly to co factory. Just walk around. I'm just standing there for, like, half an hour. And then I walk across the street and I ring the doorbell. I'll go inside. And I'm just like, wow. And the walls were mirrors that were one way. So you could If you were inside the restroom, you were looking at a mirror. If you were outside the restroom, you could see into the restroom or something like, no. The other way, if you're looking at a dress, it would look like a mirror. If you're inside you could see out Yeah. The non weird way. It looked like people could see you, but they couldn't. So they're like, this guy had a good sense of humor and sense of style with different things. So I'm just like, I don't know. I've never seen anything like this. That place probably has, like,

That, like, trench coats and friendly to co factory. Just walk around. I'm just standing there for, like, half an hour. And then I walk across the street and I ring the doorbell. I'll go inside. And I'm just like, wow. And the walls were mirrors that were one way. So you could If you were inside the restroom, you were looking at a mirror. If you were outside the restroom, you could see into the restroom or something like, no. The other way, if you're looking at a dress, it would look like a mirror. If you're inside you could see out Yeah. The non weird way. It looked like people could see you, but they couldn't. So they're like, this guy had a good sense of humor and sense of style with different things. So I'm just like, I don't know. I've never seen anything like this. That place probably has, like,

25:17

A few million dollars worth of furnishings.

A few million dollars worth of furnishings.

25:19

Yeah. It was crazy. That was a crazy place.

Yeah. It was crazy. That was a crazy place.

25:23

And then I interviewed with him, and it was the easiest interview I ever had. Most chilled interview. It's just, like, tell me your stories, kind of amused with my story. And then he's like He's like a cheeky guy. And he's just I he'd already decided. That's what he told me later. He's like, you would I'd applied with this, like, website resume where I was Oh, why I'm the guy for the job? I wrote this email. And then I started sending them, like,

And then I interviewed with him, and it was the easiest interview I ever had. Most chilled interview. It's just, like, tell me your stories, kind of amused with my story. And then he's like He's like a cheeky guy. And he's just I he'd already decided. That's what he told me later. He's like, you would I'd applied with this, like, website resume where I was Oh, why I'm the guy for the job? I wrote this email. And then I started sending them, like,

25:44

ideas for their current products. I was like, hey,

ideas for their current products. I was like, hey,

25:46

I checked out the flow for this. I think it could be improved here and here. So I was like trying to make an impression. I was I didn't do a job search. I did a job hunt. I was like, this is the job I want. I'm gonna zone in on it. Search versus a hunt. And I'm gonna go, like, hunt for that, and I'm gonna try to capture that job. That's exactly what I did too. And so

I checked out the flow for this. I think it could be improved here and here. So I was like trying to make an impression. I was I didn't do a job search. I did a job hunt. I was like, this is the job I want. I'm gonna zone in on it. Search versus a hunt. And I'm gonna go, like, hunt for that, and I'm gonna try to capture that job. That's exactly what I did too. And so

26:03

That had worked. Basically, by the time I got there, he was already into interested. As long as I wasn't a weirdo, I I think I wouldn't have blown it. And,

That had worked. Basically, by the time I got there, he was already into interested. As long as I wasn't a weirdo, I I think I wouldn't have blown it. And,

26:09

so chill, and I got the job working under him, And then, like, six months later, he was like, hey,

so chill, and I got the job working under him, And then, like, six months later, he was like, hey,

26:15

you should run this thing, basically. And you guys started,

you should run this thing, basically. And you guys started,

26:19

three or two or three products.

three or two or three products.

26:22

More of that. We did, like, maybe six or seven or five. Two or three that were, like It some would only last a month. Some would last What was the two years? What was the MO? He said just, alright. Here's two million dollars a year. How much budget did you have? We had a business that was already making about two million dollars a year, but it was declining. Birthday Alarm dot com. Right? Birthday Alarm dot com. And then we -- It was like a business. -- one project was just maintain it. And then at one point, as it was just declining, because it was like, you're just fixing bugs. It's like, let's turn this around. So we did a turnaround, then that got back up. And that was a website where, like, my aunt would pay you ten dollars a year, and you would be reminded when it was someone's birthday. Yeah. She'll never forget Sammy's birthday. And then when it's Sammy's birthday, if she's paying the from reminders free, if you want to send a card,

More of that. We did, like, maybe six or seven or five. Two or three that were, like It some would only last a month. Some would last What was the two years? What was the MO? He said just, alright. Here's two million dollars a year. How much budget did you have? We had a business that was already making about two million dollars a year, but it was declining. Birthday Alarm dot com. Right? Birthday Alarm dot com. And then we -- It was like a business. -- one project was just maintain it. And then at one point, as it was just declining, because it was like, you're just fixing bugs. It's like, let's turn this around. So we did a turnaround, then that got back up. And that was a website where, like, my aunt would pay you ten dollars a year, and you would be reminded when it was someone's birthday. Yeah. She'll never forget Sammy's birthday. And then when it's Sammy's birthday, if she's paying the from reminders free, if you want to send a card,

27:03

you pay the subscription.

you pay the subscription.

27:05

Like, fourteen dollars a year or something like that. And it made between two and three million dollars all profit almost other than hosting. Exactly.

Like, fourteen dollars a year or something like that. And it made between two and three million dollars all profit almost other than hosting. Exactly.

27:13

And so that was the cash guy that funded the whole lab. And then on top of that, if we, you know, if we needed more expenses, they would just invest money into it. So I think it funded I think it funded half and he put half, just cash.

And so that was the cash guy that funded the whole lab. And then on top of that, if we, you know, if we needed more expenses, they would just invest money into it. So I think it funded I think it funded half and he put half, just cash.

27:23

And his his mandate was, like,

And his his mandate was, like,

27:27

we don't do b to b.

we don't do b to b.

27:28

And we don't do real world, like, t shirts or Uber or things like that. We don't do, like, physical world stuff. That from Bebo probably. He was just like, yeah, like, whatever. You gotta pick a lane and, like, we're pretty broad. Like, it could be any idea, but, like, of the lanes. Let's not let's do only consumer and let's do only software. How many engineers did you have there? Like sixteen ish eighteen ish. When I went there, I was like, oh, this is a tech billionaires country club.

And we don't do real world, like, t shirts or Uber or things like that. We don't do, like, physical world stuff. That from Bebo probably. He was just like, yeah, like, whatever. You gotta pick a lane and, like, we're pretty broad. Like, it could be any idea, but, like, of the lanes. Let's not let's do only consumer and let's do only software. How many engineers did you have there? Like sixteen ish eighteen ish. When I went there, I was like, oh, this is a tech billionaires country club.

27:50

That's what it felt like. Not even a country close. Nobody else is there. It's, like, his play it's, like, his man cave? Yeah. Play ground. It's, like, yeah, man cave is a better word because you had, like, old Mac computers as, like,

That's what it felt like. Not even a country close. Nobody else is there. It's, like, his play it's, like, his man cave? Yeah. Play ground. It's, like, yeah, man cave is a better word because you had, like, old Mac computers as, like,

28:01

art. Yeah. And he had like really nice actual real art. And, like, it was just like, oh, if I'm a billionaire nerd in San Francisco, this is exactly what I would do as well. So instead of like owning, like, owning, like, old ferraris.

art. Yeah. And he had like really nice actual real art. And, like, it was just like, oh, if I'm a billionaire nerd in San Francisco, this is exactly what I would do as well. So instead of like owning, like, owning, like, old ferraris.

28:12

He just hired sixteen engineers to make them shit. Yeah. He had those two. He just didn't keep them in the office. Oh, he had those two. Yeah.

He just hired sixteen engineers to make them shit. Yeah. He had those two. He just didn't keep them in the office. Oh, he had those two. Yeah.

28:18

And so alright. So He had all the he's got an island. He's got cars.

And so alright. So He had all the he's got an island. He's got cars.

28:22

He's got, you know, his own projects. He owns his own hotel. His own projects. Happier than you? Did you think he He's happy for sure. Do you think he was happier

He's got, you know, his own projects. He owns his own hotel. His own projects. Happier than you? Did you think he He's happy for sure. Do you think he was happier

28:31

for back then when he was a, you know, billionaire? He was probably in this late thirties at that point, maybe early forties. Forties. Yeah. Do you think he was happier than you are now?

for back then when he was a, you know, billionaire? He was probably in this late thirties at that point, maybe early forties. Forties. Yeah. Do you think he was happier than you are now?

28:43

He's definitely more at peace.

He's definitely more at peace.

28:46

So I think I'm pretty joyful, like, on a day to day basis, I'm kinda bouncing around.

So I think I'm pretty joyful, like, on a day to day basis, I'm kinda bouncing around.

28:51

And he's more stoic than that. Like, he's he definitely has a good sense of humor and and laughs a bunch, and that doesn't take stuff too seriously.

And he's more stoic than that. Like, he's he definitely has a good sense of humor and and laughs a bunch, and that doesn't take stuff too seriously.

28:57

I get I'm more easily excitable.

I get I'm more easily excitable.

29:00

So I'm excited about random stuff. Anything. I can get excited about anything. I probably still wanna prove yourself.

So I'm excited about random stuff. Anything. I can get excited about anything. I probably still wanna prove yourself.

29:05

But I have this inner

But I have this inner

29:08

not peace. I'm not just at rest. I'm, like, trying to do something, prove something, be something, make something,

not peace. I'm not just at rest. I'm, like, trying to do something, prove something, be something, make something,

29:14

earn something, win something, and, like, I he just didn't have that that same because of the acquisition.

earn something, win something, and, like, I he just didn't have that that same because of the acquisition.

29:20

Because of that, and I think just wisdom. Like, I think he saw, okay.

Because of that, and I think just wisdom. Like, I think he saw, okay.

29:24

You know, his whole cohort of friends mostly became super successful. They were they were the who's who of Silicon Valley.

You know, his whole cohort of friends mostly became super successful. They were they were the who's who of Silicon Valley.

29:31

And so

And so

29:32

he told me once he's because I was like, I was like, how come you don't blog? Like, I feel like all the VCs are blogging. At the time, that was, like, the big thing. And I was like, why don't you he's like, well, I just don't feel like I have anything, like, that interesting to say.

he told me once he's because I was like, I was like, how come you don't blog? Like, I feel like all the VCs are blogging. At the time, that was, like, the big thing. And I was like, why don't you he's like, well, I just don't feel like I have anything, like, that interesting to say.

29:44

And I thought that was the funniest answer because I was like,

And I thought that was the funniest answer because I was like,

29:47

I could have heard him say, I should.

I could have heard him say, I should.

29:50

I or I do. Then or he could have said, no. I don't wanna do that because of this, like, I played the game this way instead,

I or I do. Then or he could have said, no. I don't wanna do that because of this, like, I played the game this way instead,

29:57

but it was so humble to just say,

but it was so humble to just say,

30:00

I just don't feel like I I have the like, if I don't have something interesting to contribute, why would I just blog in your face? Like, that would be rude.

I just don't feel like I I have the like, if I don't have something interesting to contribute, why would I just blog in your face? Like, that would be rude.

30:06

Darmass shot, the founder of HubSpot. He's you know, this billionaire guy. He's, like, Uber successful.

Darmass shot, the founder of HubSpot. He's you know, this billionaire guy. He's, like, Uber successful.

30:12

He told me, he goes, yeah, I'm speaking at Masters of scale, Reed Hoffman's thing his conference.

He told me, he goes, yeah, I'm speaking at Masters of scale, Reed Hoffman's thing his conference.

30:17

And,

And,

30:19

He was like, yeah. It's like, you know, the founders of Stripe,

He was like, yeah. It's like, you know, the founders of Stripe,

30:23

Bill Gates,

Bill Gates,

30:24

the CEO of Uber,

the CEO of Uber,

30:26

whatever. Like, kind of the who's who of all these big shot. He's like, I'm so humbled and honored, and I can't believe, like, they're having me. And I was like, I I I said I go, Really? Can you really not believe that? Like, it seems like it seems like pretty believable. Like, you're, like, like, that seems like a very believable thing. There's evidence. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I I I don't I don't, like, from an outside perspective, you're like a billionaire, you're HubSpot at some I don't I don't know what the cutoff of a fortune five hundred is, but, like, it's definitely there or right around there. You know, at times, it's worth twenty to thirty billion dollars, and you made it. I'm I mean, I I can believe that you'd be there. And he's like, well, you know, that just

whatever. Like, kind of the who's who of all these big shot. He's like, I'm so humbled and honored, and I can't believe, like, they're having me. And I was like, I I I said I go, Really? Can you really not believe that? Like, it seems like it seems like pretty believable. Like, you're, like, like, that seems like a very believable thing. There's evidence. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I I I don't I don't, like, from an outside perspective, you're like a billionaire, you're HubSpot at some I don't I don't know what the cutoff of a fortune five hundred is, but, like, it's definitely there or right around there. You know, at times, it's worth twenty to thirty billion dollars, and you made it. I'm I mean, I I can believe that you'd be there. And he's like, well, you know, that just

31:02

I'm just honored. And I just and then, like, I, you know, I I'm I cannot believe I'm actually gonna be there. It's like, well, I don't I don't know even what to say. That's just so hard for me to grasp because from the outside, you guys all seem like the same thing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Totally.

I'm just honored. And I just and then, like, I, you know, I I'm I cannot believe I'm actually gonna be there. It's like, well, I don't I don't know even what to say. That's just so hard for me to grasp because from the outside, you guys all seem like the same thing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Totally.

31:15

But I thought that was weird. You're the I'll give you I'll give you an example of a way where I saw that he was more at peace. Like, we had a product that was launching and the press was covering it. Tech Crunch was covering it.

But I thought that was weird. You're the I'll give you I'll give you an example of a way where I saw that he was more at peace. Like, we had a product that was launching and the press was covering it. Tech Crunch was covering it.

31:26

And

And

31:27

It was like, oh, sweet TechCrunch wants to do an article.

It was like, oh, sweet TechCrunch wants to do an article.

31:30

And they sent oh, they they either sent over the draft or they sent over, like, the bullet points or whatever. No. No. No. It was good, but it was, like,

And they sent oh, they they either sent over the draft or they sent over, like, the bullet points or whatever. No. No. No. It was good, but it was, like,

31:38

they had said something that was, like, more than it was, like, they had said two hundred thousand, and, actually, it was twenty thousand users or whatever, like, whatever. Some number was inflated.

they had said something that was, like, more than it was, like, they had said two hundred thousand, and, actually, it was twenty thousand users or whatever, like, whatever. Some number was inflated.

31:46

And I was, like, so happy. I was, like, yes.

And I was, like, so happy. I was, like, yes.

31:49

This is great. Like, they're just gonna say a great thing about us even greater than reality. Like, I was just sort of like, I wasn't gonna correct the record. Like, that's on them. Right? You know, like, I in my mind, I was like, this is a good thing. They're over giving us credit. Yeah. They're giving us more credit than we deserve. And he was like, he's like, well, we should just correct it. So it's the real number. And I was like, but then it's like worse for us. Right? He's like, yeah, but, like, you know,

This is great. Like, they're just gonna say a great thing about us even greater than reality. Like, I was just sort of like, I wasn't gonna correct the record. Like, that's on them. Right? You know, like, I in my mind, I was like, this is a good thing. They're over giving us credit. Yeah. They're giving us more credit than we deserve. And he was like, he's like, well, we should just correct it. So it's the real number. And I was like, but then it's like worse for us. Right? He's like, yeah, but, like, you know,

32:11

we don't need to

we don't need to

32:13

we don't need to do that.

we don't need to do that.

32:15

And that was the first one. Then the second one, he was, he was talking about,

And that was the first one. Then the second one, he was, he was talking about,

32:19

I think he had a bad experience with his VCs at Bebo. And when and we had some VCs interested in funding us at Blab. And he was just, like, he was sharing some stories, and he had told me he was like,

I think he had a bad experience with his VCs at Bebo. And when and we had some VCs interested in funding us at Blab. And he was just, like, he was sharing some stories, and he had told me he was like,

32:30

I was like, do you think that they'll follow through? He's like, oh, they'll follow through. Like Silicon Valley, he's like

I was like, do you think that they'll follow through? He's like, oh, they'll follow through. Like Silicon Valley, he's like

32:36

he's like, he's like, I would never not follow through. He's like, I if I commit and

he's like, he's like, I would never not follow through. He's like, I if I commit and

32:41

Even there's not a contract. And then I realized that Oh, it's not gonna work out as I committed. I'm in. He's like, because this this is a town where you play the game for, like, thirty years with the same people.

Even there's not a contract. And then I realized that Oh, it's not gonna work out as I committed. I'm in. He's like, because this this is a town where you play the game for, like, thirty years with the same people.

32:52

And if you make a move that's, like, self advantageous now,

And if you make a move that's, like, self advantageous now,

32:57

like your reputation is worth more than whatever that's whatever that is. That was the I did. That was his approach. And, like, actually, I've there's many examples of people who are, like, sure. My reputation is bad, but, like, a banked

like your reputation is worth more than whatever that's whatever that is. That was the I did. That was his approach. And, like, actually, I've there's many examples of people who are, like, sure. My reputation is bad, but, like, a banked

33:07

forty million or eighty million or hundred there's, like, all these examples of that in Silicon Valley too. And you you know what? Like,

forty million or eighty million or hundred there's, like, all these examples of that in Silicon Valley too. And you you know what? Like,

33:12

they won in their way But when he's, like, he was just so high integrity,

they won in their way But when he's, like, he was just so high integrity,

33:17

and I was not as high integrity. And I realized the reason why I was in high integrity is not because I'm evil, not because I'm a bad dude or because I have, like, I just don't have more. So it's short term thinking. I was just short term oriented, and I was I was afraid of failing. I was like, you know, so it was like, okay.

and I was not as high integrity. And I realized the reason why I was in high integrity is not because I'm evil, not because I'm a bad dude or because I have, like, I just don't have more. So it's short term thinking. I was just short term oriented, and I was I was afraid of failing. I was like, you know, so it was like, okay.

33:33

What can I do to, like, increase my odds of winning?

What can I do to, like, increase my odds of winning?

33:36

Where he was just more confident. He was just like, we're gonna win, and we don't need to

Where he was just more confident. He was just like, we're gonna win, and we don't need to

33:42

we don't need to play the game in any way other than the the straight way to win. And, like, I hadn't really internalized that, but once I saw that, That was really sick to see because then I was able to, like, adjust my knob and be like, oh, yeah. I'm just never gonna lie. Like, I just don't wanna lie.

we don't need to play the game in any way other than the the straight way to win. And, like, I hadn't really internalized that, but once I saw that, That was really sick to see because then I was able to, like, adjust my knob and be like, oh, yeah. I'm just never gonna lie. Like, I just don't wanna lie.

33:57

Even though my instinct was to exaggerate or my instinct was to not correct if somebody else believed something about me that wasn't true,

Even though my instinct was to exaggerate or my instinct was to not correct if somebody else believed something about me that wasn't true,

34:04

like, whereas, you know, he would just He was totally comfortable in his own skin. So is he happier than me? I would say yes, because he's more comfortable in his own skin. He's more comfortable with where he's at. He's more at peace with where he's at. He's not, like, at this, like, inner inner fire of war to whatever. Not at the same time. I'm sure he misses, like, the adventure, the thrill of, like, building something and having it succeed and having that mean something. Because now no matter what he does, like, it's very hard to have it mean something unless it's just, like, intrinsic motivation. Like, I just love the product, or it's helping impact people. But, like, the thrill of winning is kinda gone because he's already wanna, like, such a high you know, if you go to the arcade machine and you set the high score and it's so out of reach, you know, like,

like, whereas, you know, he would just He was totally comfortable in his own skin. So is he happier than me? I would say yes, because he's more comfortable in his own skin. He's more comfortable with where he's at. He's more at peace with where he's at. He's not, like, at this, like, inner inner fire of war to whatever. Not at the same time. I'm sure he misses, like, the adventure, the thrill of, like, building something and having it succeed and having that mean something. Because now no matter what he does, like, it's very hard to have it mean something unless it's just, like, intrinsic motivation. Like, I just love the product, or it's helping impact people. But, like, the thrill of winning is kinda gone because he's already wanna, like, such a high you know, if you go to the arcade machine and you set the high score and it's so out of reach, you know, like,

34:45

you can play and have a good game, but, like, you're still gonna never touch that high score again. Think he knows that. You guys, like, launched two or three things, but the last thing was the last thing was Blab, which I remember So that's when we we became friends when you were one or two years into being the CEO, I think. Yeah.

you can play and have a good game, but, like, you're still gonna never touch that high score again. Think he knows that. You guys, like, launched two or three things, but the last thing was the last thing was Blab, which I remember So that's when we we became friends when you were one or two years into being the CEO, I think. Yeah.

35:01

And

And

35:02

I was like, what do you do? And you're like, well, we're launching this thing. And then you kept jumping from thing. And I would criticize you. I'm like, dude, you just gotta stick to this one thing. Right. You're you're probably right. Well, who who knows?

I was like, what do you do? And you're like, well, we're launching this thing. And then you kept jumping from thing. And I would criticize you. I'm like, dude, you just gotta stick to this one thing. Right. You're you're probably right. Well, who who knows?

35:13

I I now I I used to firmly believe that was the way then I've seen some of the things you've done. I've seen some of the way some of our other friends have done. Like, there's tons of ways to get things set.

I I now I I used to firmly believe that was the way then I've seen some of the things you've done. I've seen some of the way some of our other friends have done. Like, there's tons of ways to get things set.

35:21

What was the final thing that sold? The final thing that sold was we, after pivot after pivot after pivot, after pivot, we got to a thing that was like a e sports app So, basically, e sports is just like trend where people are playing And back to that, it was just starting.

What was the final thing that sold? The final thing that sold was we, after pivot after pivot after pivot, after pivot, we got to a thing that was like a e sports app So, basically, e sports is just like trend where people are playing And back to that, it was just starting.

35:36

It's like it's it's still just starting. It's like, it was around, but but whatever. But it was really just starting. I mean, Twitch was like only

It's like it's it's still just starting. It's like, it was around, but but whatever. But it was really just starting. I mean, Twitch was like only

35:43

six or seven years old at the time. No. No. This, yeah, I guess, I don't know. Twitch was Twitch was around. Twitch was big, but it wasn't That wasn't really the thing. It was basically

six or seven years old at the time. No. No. This, yeah, I guess, I don't know. Twitch was Twitch was around. Twitch was big, but it wasn't That wasn't really the thing. It was basically

35:51

the last idea we had, the one that we got acquired for. We basically built an app that was like,

the last idea we had, the one that we got acquired for. We basically built an app that was like,

35:56

the way a high schooler could go and play, you could sign up for basketball or soccer or whatever, like, some game, you could go play in a league for it. And you would pay your league dues and, like, there's little league baseball, then there's, like, you know, AA sports. There's all these youth leagues. Youth sports is a big deal. There was no youth esports.

the way a high schooler could go and play, you could sign up for basketball or soccer or whatever, like, some game, you could go play in a league for it. And you would pay your league dues and, like, there's little league baseball, then there's, like, you know, AA sports. There's all these youth leagues. Youth sports is a big deal. There was no youth esports.

36:13

That was the whole idea. And so we had had a bunch of technology. We'd already been doing stuff in streaming and gaming. And so we took the all that tech And we made an app that let any high schooler

That was the whole idea. And so we had had a bunch of technology. We'd already been doing stuff in streaming and gaming. And so we took the all that tech And we made an app that let any high schooler

36:22

sign up and play in a Fortnite league. Fortnite was the big game at the time. It was like Fortnite was ripping.

sign up and play in a Fortnite league. Fortnite was the big game at the time. It was like Fortnite was ripping.

36:27

And There were more people that played Fortnite in the world than play basketball. And so we were like, that's crazy. This has more players, but there's no organized league. There's only the pros There's no, like, amateurs.

And There were more people that played Fortnite in the world than play basketball. And so we were like, that's crazy. This has more players, but there's no organized league. There's only the pros There's no, like, amateurs.

36:39

And so we created the high school fortnight League, and we had an app that you would sign up. You'd make your team, you can invite friends, and then you would compete against other teams, and you get, like, ranked. You'd play in tournaments, and all of it was streamed, which was cool, because it would make it turned into, like, a spectator sport. How big did I get?

And so we created the high school fortnight League, and we had an app that you would sign up. You'd make your team, you can invite friends, and then you would compete against other teams, and you get, like, ranked. You'd play in tournaments, and all of it was streamed, which was cool, because it would make it turned into, like, a spectator sport. How big did I get?

36:54

It was the biggest esports league, but it was small overall. We were only maybe

It was the biggest esports league, but it was small overall. We were only maybe

36:59

six or nine months into that version of it. It maybe had

six or nine months into that version of it. It maybe had

37:05

ten to twenty five thousand players, active players at the time.

ten to twenty five thousand players, active players at the time.

37:10

Which was big because it, like, in youth, like, you know, in theory, those people would pay us, like, if you if I go take my daughters three and put her in a soccer league, I'm gonna pay ninety nine bucks or whatever for her to be in that league. So same thing. If we if we started charging for it, it would have this like SaaS business that was gonna generate I thought millions of dollars a year, but may maybe tens probably never hundreds.

Which was big because it, like, in youth, like, you know, in theory, those people would pay us, like, if you if I go take my daughters three and put her in a soccer league, I'm gonna pay ninety nine bucks or whatever for her to be in that league. So same thing. If we if we started charging for it, it would have this like SaaS business that was gonna generate I thought millions of dollars a year, but may maybe tens probably never hundreds.

37:31

And so that was the problem. I was like, oh, if we do this really well, and we succeed at this.

And so that was the problem. I was like, oh, if we do this really well, and we succeed at this.

37:38

It'll get to maybe, like, ten million a year, maybe twenty million a year in revenue, but never really beyond that.

It'll get to maybe, like, ten million a year, maybe twenty million a year in revenue, but never really beyond that.

37:43

And Dude, isn't that fucked up? That's not what we signed up for. It's not the way it's not it sucks. I it's not it doesn't suck because I agree that that well, that's just the game. That just sucks at that because That's not enough. Yeah. If you owned a hundred percent of that, you could have made a sim maybe a similar ish amount of wealth as Mike Birch. Yeah. Exactly. You know, but it wasn't structured that way. I know. It sucks. And so once once I kind of got that feeling, and I was six or seven years in to the whole monkey for a new experiment with creating products with that same team, same group, it was like, let's sell this and let's shake things up. You know, I had a guy. I was lucky, a friend, silly, like,

And Dude, isn't that fucked up? That's not what we signed up for. It's not the way it's not it sucks. I it's not it doesn't suck because I agree that that well, that's just the game. That just sucks at that because That's not enough. Yeah. If you owned a hundred percent of that, you could have made a sim maybe a similar ish amount of wealth as Mike Birch. Yeah. Exactly. You know, but it wasn't structured that way. I know. It sucks. And so once once I kind of got that feeling, and I was six or seven years in to the whole monkey for a new experiment with creating products with that same team, same group, it was like, let's sell this and let's shake things up. You know, I had a guy. I was lucky, a friend, silly, like,

38:21

Like, on the outside, everything was amazing. Office was amazing. It's when I met you. Product was cool. You're like, I'm making a hundred and fifty grand a year and I'm like, oh my god. You're like the wealthiest person I've ever met. Like, you have a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year. That's crazy. And you're only at your twenties. I remember you told me that, and I was, like, shocked. I was, like, and you have this sick office.

Like, on the outside, everything was amazing. Office was amazing. It's when I met you. Product was cool. You're like, I'm making a hundred and fifty grand a year and I'm like, oh my god. You're like the wealthiest person I've ever met. Like, you have a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year. That's crazy. And you're only at your twenties. I remember you told me that, and I was, like, shocked. I was, like, and you have this sick office.

38:40

Like, you're set.

Like, you're set.

38:41

It felt that way at that time. And then over time, your expectations change, you meet other people who are doing better, better, and you're like, oh, man, hundreds, I was, like, one one sixty. That's nothing. Like, I'm way underpaid. And and in general, I was just like, I just wanted to get a win. I don't think you're underpaid.

It felt that way at that time. And then over time, your expectations change, you meet other people who are doing better, better, and you're like, oh, man, hundreds, I was, like, one one sixty. That's nothing. Like, I'm way underpaid. And and in general, I was just like, I just wanted to get a win. I don't think you're underpaid.

38:56

Well, for a startup founder, I wasn't underpaid, but if I just worked at a job, I would -- Correct. -- to the it's called the equity. The equity was what mattered. And so,

Well, for a startup founder, I wasn't underpaid, but if I just worked at a job, I would -- Correct. -- to the it's called the equity. The equity was what mattered. And so,

39:04

I own twenty percent of that, out of that, of of the business. And so, anyways, we decided to sell, and then that was, you know,

I own twenty percent of that, out of that, of of the business. And so, anyways, we decided to sell, and then that was, you know,

39:12

a crazy process. And So life changing?

a crazy process. And So life changing?

39:15

Yeah. For sure.

Yeah. For sure.

39:16

Financially life changing. Yeah. Because go from no millions to millions. This you know, that's life changing. And you actually stayed there. Amazon, Amazon bought the company and you stayed there for two years. Right? Yeah. Would you and are you happy you stayed?

Financially life changing. Yeah. Because go from no millions to millions. This you know, that's life changing. And you actually stayed there. Amazon, Amazon bought the company and you stayed there for two years. Right? Yeah. Would you and are you happy you stayed?

39:30

Like, I don't really think about the past. Like, what's, like, am I happy I said? Yes, sure. Like, you know, find her that in retrospect, if I could go advise myself now,

Like, I don't really think about the past. Like, what's, like, am I happy I said? Yes, sure. Like, you know, find her that in retrospect, if I could go advise myself now,

39:39

I would have stayed only one year. I stayed two.

I would have stayed only one year. I stayed two.

39:43

But I also got a bunch of other benefits. Like, I popped out two kids and was able to, like, spend time with them and didn't have to stress about Yeah. You, like, collectively had, like, ten months of paternity leave. What's that? I mean, you had, like, ten months of paternity leave. No. Actually, stupidly, I only took two weeks with the first kid? What are we thinking?

But I also got a bunch of other benefits. Like, I popped out two kids and was able to, like, spend time with them and didn't have to stress about Yeah. You, like, collectively had, like, ten months of paternity leave. What's that? I mean, you had, like, ten months of paternity leave. No. Actually, stupidly, I only took two weeks with the first kid? What are we thinking?

40:00

And I fell into all the traps you could fall into. Like, at a big home, it's like, oh, they put me on the special project, then the CEO really loves it and cares now is the critical time. And and also being at home, honestly, as it, like, being at home is harder than being at work. So it was, like, actually kinda easier to go back to work in But, like,

And I fell into all the traps you could fall into. Like, at a big home, it's like, oh, they put me on the special project, then the CEO really loves it and cares now is the critical time. And and also being at home, honestly, as it, like, being at home is harder than being at work. So it was, like, actually kinda easier to go back to work in But, like,

40:16

I should have taken more time, and I just sort of, like, didn't. And I think a lot of employees fall into this trap in companies. They don't take that's, like, the company has unlimited time off, you don't take it. You could take this much fraternity of maternity. It's like, oh, you feel pressure to cut it short because you wanna get back to your team or your whatever, stupid.

I should have taken more time, and I just sort of, like, didn't. And I think a lot of employees fall into this trap in companies. They don't take that's, like, the company has unlimited time off, you don't take it. You could take this much fraternity of maternity. It's like, oh, you feel pressure to cut it short because you wanna get back to your team or your whatever, stupid.

40:33

But the second year, I was way more chill and basically -- When did -- did very little work. When did you start the ecomm thing?

But the second year, I was way more chill and basically -- When did -- did very little work. When did you start the ecomm thing?

40:39

Somewhere around that time. And you we don't talk about it on purpose. Yeah. And so we won't talk about it much, but what do you wanna say? Anything about it?

Somewhere around that time. And you we don't talk about it on purpose. Yeah. And so we won't talk about it much, but what do you wanna say? Anything about it?

40:48

It's a big business. I think we'll, yeah, I think we'll start talking about it soon. Maybe that'll be it. Do you wanna say how big it is?

It's a big business. I think we'll, yeah, I think we'll start talking about it soon. Maybe that'll be it. Do you wanna say how big it is?

40:54

Yeah. It does, like,

Yeah. It does, like,

40:56

fifteen million a year profitable. Damn, dude. Strapped

fifteen million a year profitable. Damn, dude. Strapped

40:59

in two years. You told me you were doing it. And I was like, why would you ever do that? And

in two years. You told me you were doing it. And I was like, why would you ever do that? And

41:04

Are you happy that you did that or not?

Are you happy that you did that or not?

41:07

Same thing. In retrospect, I would go advise myself, don't do this path. Because you already had, like, clout a little bit. And now So during the sale of the first company, you started this podcast, so then that's when the hustle and this podcast kinda collaborated.

Same thing. In retrospect, I would go advise myself, don't do this path. Because you already had, like, clout a little bit. And now So during the sale of the first company, you started this podcast, so then that's when the hustle and this podcast kinda collaborated.

41:20

But

But

41:21

this podcast

this podcast

41:22

people asked me how to grow a pot and I'm like, I don't know because Sean, like, started doing it my way, and it kinda worked the day one.

people asked me how to grow a pot and I'm like, I don't know because Sean, like, started doing it my way, and it kinda worked the day one.

41:29

Like, we got, like, I think the first episode was sixty thousand downloads.

Like, we got, like, I think the first episode was sixty thousand downloads.

41:33

The first one was just, hey, there's a new thing and people will go check it out. Right? Yeah. But it was it still was good. Start But it it got to a good start. And then when we switched it to this format, it got even better. It, like, took off in a better way. And then just time. Time, like,

The first one was just, hey, there's a new thing and people will go check it out. Right? Yeah. But it was it still was good. Start But it it got to a good start. And then when we switched it to this format, it got even better. It, like, took off in a better way. And then just time. Time, like,

41:46

time has been three years. Yeah. And so the thing I've learned. So so why do I say I would go back and do it differently is because

time has been three years. Yeah. And so the thing I've learned. So so why do I say I would go back and do it differently is because

41:53

I now realize something I already knew, but I didn't have the guts to act on, which was that at any given time, you're really only gonna get to throw your all into one thing.

I now realize something I already knew, but I didn't have the guts to act on, which was that at any given time, you're really only gonna get to throw your all into one thing.

42:05

And so why not throw like, if you're gonna do that, like, choose really wisely.

And so why not throw like, if you're gonna do that, like, choose really wisely.

42:10

So for example,

So for example,

42:12

When we got acquired by Twitch, I didn't wanna throw my all into that.

When we got acquired by Twitch, I didn't wanna throw my all into that.

42:16

That wasn't, like, gonna be my my my baby, my future was to be an employee at Twitch.

That wasn't, like, gonna be my my my baby, my future was to be an employee at Twitch.

42:22

I wanted to earn out the deal, and I was feeling like I needed to

I wanted to earn out the deal, and I was feeling like I needed to

42:26

get that check. Right? So there was, like, a desperation to secure the bag.

get that check. Right? So there was, like, a desperation to secure the bag.

42:30

Which by the way is the right move, I think. Maybe. Well, I think selling out is the way to go. I had asked a buddy who was more successful at the time. And I was like, what would you do if you were me? He's like, I would quit on day one. He's like, I would sell so that your team is fine and your investors are happy, and then I would quit on day one. I go, why? Like, it's so much money if I just stay even one year, one year. No big deal. And he's like,

Which by the way is the right move, I think. Maybe. Well, I think selling out is the way to go. I had asked a buddy who was more successful at the time. And I was like, what would you do if you were me? He's like, I would quit on day one. He's like, I would sell so that your team is fine and your investors are happy, and then I would quit on day one. I go, why? Like, it's so much money if I just stay even one year, one year. No big deal. And he's like,

42:49

he goes, the surface area of opportunity is too wide. Who said that? Truly.

he goes, the surface area of opportunity is too wide. Who said that? Truly.

42:54

And It's so smart, man. Because I I went I remember we went for a walk, and we walked for, like, an hour and a half in the mission. We just walked back and forth through the mission on the streets. It was, like, everything's closing. Mission's ghetto as hell. And we were just like imagine, like, pacing furiously. We were doing that, and we were just talking through what's next. And I said, I really wanna do this podcast. I wanna create a podcast. He's like, a podcast. I was like, yeah. I was like, I think if I could just be in a million people's earballs every morning, that's like that would be the most fulfilling thing for me, and it'd be awesome. It'll be just twenty percent of the way there, maybe.

And It's so smart, man. Because I I went I remember we went for a walk, and we walked for, like, an hour and a half in the mission. We just walked back and forth through the mission on the streets. It was, like, everything's closing. Mission's ghetto as hell. And we were just like imagine, like, pacing furiously. We were doing that, and we were just talking through what's next. And I said, I really wanna do this podcast. I wanna create a podcast. He's like, a podcast. I was like, yeah. I was like, I think if I could just be in a million people's earballs every morning, that's like that would be the most fulfilling thing for me, and it'd be awesome. It'll be just twenty percent of the way there, maybe.

43:22

Yeah. I don't know. Millionists now, I realize, like, very aggressive of, like, every morning,

Yeah. I don't know. Millionists now, I realize, like, very aggressive of, like, every morning,

43:27

but, like, you know,

but, like, you know,

43:29

if you just keep going for five years, it could happen. Like, that that that's realistic now. But I remember thinking that's what I wanna do, and I couldn't explain why. I was just sure I wanted to do it, which is in retrospect is a really good signal. Like, that's the type of stuff you should go do. And I did that.

if you just keep going for five years, it could happen. Like, that that that's realistic now. But I remember thinking that's what I wanna do, and I couldn't explain why. I was just sure I wanted to do it, which is in retrospect is a really good signal. Like, that's the type of stuff you should go do. And I did that.

43:43

But then the other thing, he was just like, yeah, we just quit from day one. The surface area of opportunity is too wide. And I looked at it and, like,

But then the other thing, he was just like, yeah, we just quit from day one. The surface area of opportunity is too wide. And I looked at it and, like,

43:49

And I was like, well, what would I do if it wasn't this? And he's like,

And I was like, well, what would I do if it wasn't this? And he's like,

43:52

again, the surface area is so wide. Anything. And I was like, give me an example. He goes, I got a company for you. We could do right now. I'll co found this with you. And he totally talked you into it because the soley was all he had

again, the surface area is so wide. Anything. And I was like, give me an example. He goes, I got a company for you. We could do right now. I'll co found this with you. And he totally talked you into it because the soley was all he had

44:04

just sold an ecomm business that he had just No. No. This is a different idea. Not even the ecomm business. This is a different thing. He goes because in e commerce, there's this company called Clavio. They're, email sending coming

just sold an ecomm business that he had just No. No. This is a different idea. Not even the ecomm business. This is a different thing. He goes because in e commerce, there's this company called Clavio. They're, email sending coming

44:15

off. He goes, Klaviyo for SMS.

off. He goes, Klaviyo for SMS.

44:18

And I go, doesn't Klaviyo do SMS? He goes, no. I go, won't they? He goes, yeah, they probably will. Aren't there these other companies? Yeah. Sure. But he's, like, you're focusing on the wrong thing. I'm telling you. I'm in income.

And I go, doesn't Klaviyo do SMS? He goes, no. I go, won't they? He goes, yeah, they probably will. Aren't there these other companies? Yeah. Sure. But he's, like, you're focusing on the wrong thing. I'm telling you. I'm in income.

44:28

And

And

44:29

SMS is, like, It's like email, but better. People open it. And he's like It's like a ninety percent. Right? You just need a bit. Like, if we just build SMS for e com, I think we can go get, like, a hundred brands that matter, and this would be a valuable company. And I was, like, Okay? It kind of sounds like I don't know. It was just like this idea. It was almost boring because it was, like, here's a ready made idea. There was, like, nothing else to think. It was, like, Anything I said was basically a distraction. I think he was right. He was absolutely right because,

SMS is, like, It's like email, but better. People open it. And he's like It's like a ninety percent. Right? You just need a bit. Like, if we just build SMS for e com, I think we can go get, like, a hundred brands that matter, and this would be a valuable company. And I was, like, Okay? It kind of sounds like I don't know. It was just like this idea. It was almost boring because it was, like, here's a ready made idea. There was, like, nothing else to think. It was, like, Anything I said was basically a distraction. I think he was right. He was absolutely right because,

44:53

so we talked about it. We went kinda down that that rabbit hole for, like, a little bit. We tried to find maybe a different operator to come run And then I see this company in YC called Postscript.

so we talked about it. We went kinda down that that rabbit hole for, like, a little bit. We tried to find maybe a different operator to come run And then I see this company in YC called Postscript.

45:02

And I send it to him and I go, Hey, this is they're doing Clavia for SMS. He goes, alright, I'm gonna invest. So he goes, and him and his brother invested it. And postscript is now, like, multi hundred million dollar company in the same this is the same period of time. Right? So, like, that was a path. Sure. Maybe it wouldn't have worked out for us, but, like, I don't know. I would guess it probably would. But, like, physics has allowed a tap And, like possible. It it it it it played out. And so whether it's that one or even just the ecomm thing, if I just started it at day one, like, the ecomm thing's more valuable than what I earned out at Twitch,

And I send it to him and I go, Hey, this is they're doing Clavia for SMS. He goes, alright, I'm gonna invest. So he goes, and him and his brother invested it. And postscript is now, like, multi hundred million dollar company in the same this is the same period of time. Right? So, like, that was a path. Sure. Maybe it wouldn't have worked out for us, but, like, I don't know. I would guess it probably would. But, like, physics has allowed a tap And, like possible. It it it it it played out. And so whether it's that one or even just the ecomm thing, if I just started it at day one, like, the ecomm thing's more valuable than what I earned out at Twitch,

45:33

like, it will be. And so, like, again, the surface of our opportunity was very wide. And I was one thing was a guarantee, and it was right in front of me. Everything else was unknown.

like, it will be. And so, like, again, the surface of our opportunity was very wide. And I was one thing was a guarantee, and it was right in front of me. Everything else was unknown.

45:41

And so

And so

45:42

I've learned now that, like, you should just

I've learned now that, like, you should just

45:46

keep going until you,

keep going until you,

45:48

like, go

like, go

45:49

like, turn down a thing that's known if it's not what you want, if it's not the real thing that you want.

like, turn down a thing that's known if it's not what you want, if it's not the real thing that you want.

45:54

Because only when you turn that down, then do you get the opportunity to go find

Because only when you turn that down, then do you get the opportunity to go find

45:58

the thing you want. It's like dating. Right? You're dating somebody who you don't wanna marry,

the thing you want. It's like dating. Right? You're dating somebody who you don't wanna marry,

46:03

but they're okay. They're good. It's it's just not they're not the one. And you might try to yourself into it, but, like, if you're talking yourself into it, you're already losing. And then, like You gotta you gotta break up in order to meet the next person. And, like, six

but they're okay. They're good. It's it's just not they're not the one. And you might try to yourself into it, but, like, if you're talking yourself into it, you're already losing. And then, like You gotta you gotta break up in order to meet the next person. And, like, six

46:15

Or twelve I forget when you started the milk road eight months ago?

Or twelve I forget when you started the milk road eight months ago?

46:18

We launched in January. Yeah. So So

We launched in January. Yeah. So So

46:21

and that's actually going really nicely. You have a hundred and fifty to two hundred fifty thousand subscribers. Yeah. Over two hundred. Wow. Okay. And maybe you'll run that forever. Maybe you'll sell who knows. You ever thought about what you wanna do for the rest of your life? I think about it all the time. I wanna brainstorm that with you. Well, okay. What would you like to do?

and that's actually going really nicely. You have a hundred and fifty to two hundred fifty thousand subscribers. Yeah. Over two hundred. Wow. Okay. And maybe you'll run that forever. Maybe you'll sell who knows. You ever thought about what you wanna do for the rest of your life? I think about it all the time. I wanna brainstorm that with you. Well, okay. What would you like to do?

46:39

Well,

Well,

46:40

assuming that milk road's not a thing. Yeah. Assuming that milk road's not a thing and assuming that, the e commerce thing is not a thing. So let's assume two things right there. Cause

assuming that milk road's not a thing. Yeah. Assuming that milk road's not a thing and assuming that, the e commerce thing is not a thing. So let's assume two things right there. Cause

46:48

in the spirit of what I'm talking about,

in the spirit of what I'm talking about,

46:52

If it's not the one, then you gotta

If it's not the one, then you gotta

46:55

find a different way. So let's just say let's say that there's something else that's the one. What would it look like? What would it be like? I

find a different way. So let's just say let's say that there's something else that's the one. What would it look like? What would it be like? I

47:01

I think there's one version of it that's like this podcast,

I think there's one version of it that's like this podcast,

47:05

just

just

47:06

more. But, like, What if this pod if this podcast was ten times bigger, would I really care to do anything else?

more. But, like, What if this pod if this podcast was ten times bigger, would I really care to do anything else?

47:13

Financially,

Financially,

47:14

ten times bigger?

ten times bigger?

47:16

Either way, audience, I think. Well, is there translates to to money? So Is there a is there an amount of money?

Either way, audience, I think. Well, is there translates to to money? So Is there a is there an amount of money?

47:23

Like, whether money is important or not, It is kind of

Like, whether money is important or not, It is kind of

47:27

you have you I think it should work backwards from that. Yeah. Is there an amount of money that you'd want per year? Sure. The target currently is fifty.

you have you I think it should work backwards from that. Yeah. Is there an amount of money that you'd want per year? Sure. The target currently is fifty.

47:34

In net worth.

In net worth.

47:35

Yeah. Total net worth. That's not, like, in tied up in one company that's, like, can can die next month. Like,

Yeah. Total net worth. That's not, like, in tied up in one company that's, like, can can die next month. Like,

47:42

in, of, you know, assets you own, kinda like liquid, you know, but it could be a little bit more Like loanable against. Yeah. Like, not concentrated into one paper valuation of one company. A podcast would more so be a or a media company for you would be more so an annual income thing, I would imagine.

in, of, you know, assets you own, kinda like liquid, you know, but it could be a little bit more Like loanable against. Yeah. Like, not concentrated into one paper valuation of one company. A podcast would more so be a or a media company for you would be more so an annual income thing, I would imagine.

47:59

Stack up to fifty,

Stack up to fifty,

48:00

or

or

48:01

it could just

it could just

48:02

wait and then sell for fifty or or or net fifty in in the end in some way. Well,

wait and then sell for fifty or or or net fifty in in the end in some way. Well,

48:08

I think that you so And by the way,

I think that you so And by the way,

48:11

fifty is just a random number. You just made it up. Yeah. So maybe we should start there. Maybe that's the wrong number. No. I think that's a good number. I know what you like. You like nice shit. You like spending a lot of stuff. I think fifty is a good number for you. Okay. I think the the difference between thirty and fifty

fifty is just a random number. You just made it up. Yeah. So maybe we should start there. Maybe that's the wrong number. No. I think that's a good number. I know what you like. You like nice shit. You like spending a lot of stuff. I think fifty is a good number for you. Okay. I think the the difference between thirty and fifty

48:25

for you or me is actually not a significant amount. I think that's

for you or me is actually not a significant amount. I think that's

48:30

a good number. The difference between anything above a hundred is enough

a good number. The difference between anything above a hundred is enough

48:35

today

today

48:35

that you would really, really have to work hard. Like, you'd have to be you'd purposely have to be a jackass to go through it. That's mostly true for fifty. Ten you can go through. You know, that's just like a big house and, like, a medical emergency. And, like, you can, like, kinda blow through that. A bad investment.

that you would really, really have to work hard. Like, you'd have to be you'd purposely have to be a jackass to go through it. That's mostly true for fifty. Ten you can go through. You know, that's just like a big house and, like, a medical emergency. And, like, you can, like, kinda blow through that. A bad investment.

48:51

Yeah. I made it. You know what I mean? And you can go and you A lawsuit? Yeah. Be back on a two or three, like, pretty quickly.

Yeah. I made it. You know what I mean? And you can go and you A lawsuit? Yeah. Be back on a two or three, like, pretty quickly.

48:56

Thirty is in the range of where it's enough that, like, you can't screw it up. A hundred sure, like, you're you're

Thirty is in the range of where it's enough that, like, you can't screw it up. A hundred sure, like, you're you're

49:02

you you would have to have, like, some crooks around you or,

you you would have to have, like, some crooks around you or,

49:06

like, a stupid, like, your dad's smart enough to be like, Hey, man.

like, a stupid, like, your dad's smart enough to be like, Hey, man.

49:10

Can we have a can we talk about this?

Can we have a can we talk about this?

49:12

I think you're going too hard. You you don't need a Lamborghini yacht.

I think you're going too hard. You you don't need a Lamborghini yacht.

49:15

You know what I mean? Buffalo buffalo buffalo time.

You know what I mean? Buffalo buffalo buffalo time.

49:19

So anyway, hot one? We'll do hot one.

So anyway, hot one? We'll do hot one.

49:22

Dude, yeah. We're talking money now. Fifty fifty is enough. I think that's a good goal. But and I think that I've seen you grow

Dude, yeah. We're talking money now. Fifty fifty is enough. I think that's a good goal. But and I think that I've seen you grow

49:31

to be this like tech person to a media person, you are better at media than you are tech.

to be this like tech person to a media person, you are better at media than you are tech.

49:35

I believe that. You are better at investing than you are at running things. I believe that. You are better at starting things than you are running things. And you are horrible at managing, like,

I believe that. You are better at investing than you are at running things. I believe that. You are better at starting things than you are running things. And you are horrible at managing, like,

49:46

I don't,

I don't,

49:47

theoretically, at managing fifty plus people.

theoretically, at managing fifty plus people.

49:50

Yeah. I don't even know. I think he'd be awesome at leading them, but horrible at managing them. Just don't want to.

Yeah. I don't even know. I think he'd be awesome at leading them, but horrible at managing them. Just don't want to.

49:57

Yeah. But you're really good at being, like, a leader. I bet you'd actually be a really good CEO too. I think you'd be a horrible There's like what, like, inspirational speeches

Yeah. But you're really good at being, like, a leader. I bet you'd actually be a really good CEO too. I think you'd be a horrible There's like what, like, inspirational speeches

50:05

Yeah. You're you're naturally inspiration. Like, what Jerry con Jerry Steinfeld said com comedy is like a secret weapon that most people don't understand. It will comedy is kinda in storytelling. It just charisma, the ability to capture someone's, like, imagination and make them believe something or or capture emotion from them. Or make them feel a certain emotion. You definitely have that. You have that. You everyone, a lot of people ask me, like, well, Sean always good at this. I'm like, yeah, he was actually always good at it and then he's gotten better. So I think that you you have that. So I would say you could be a CEO, but you're you actually got really lucky. And Ben Levy doesn't publicly get enough credit, but that's like your partner in all these things. Yeah. He one hundred percent is your yin to the yang. And if I was you, I would go way harder on that partnership with him. And potentially launch more things,

Yeah. You're you're naturally inspiration. Like, what Jerry con Jerry Steinfeld said com comedy is like a secret weapon that most people don't understand. It will comedy is kinda in storytelling. It just charisma, the ability to capture someone's, like, imagination and make them believe something or or capture emotion from them. Or make them feel a certain emotion. You definitely have that. You have that. You everyone, a lot of people ask me, like, well, Sean always good at this. I'm like, yeah, he was actually always good at it and then he's gotten better. So I think that you you have that. So I would say you could be a CEO, but you're you actually got really lucky. And Ben Levy doesn't publicly get enough credit, but that's like your partner in all these things. Yeah. He one hundred percent is your yin to the yang. And if I was you, I would go way harder on that partnership with him. And potentially launch more things,

50:50

and

and

50:52

let him operate. Who's having the most fun? Like, who's got the who's having the most fun with,

let him operate. Who's having the most fun? Like, who's got the who's having the most fun with,

50:58

I mean, you. With their life stuff. You are doing pretty good. Okay. Besides me, who else?

I mean, you. With their life stuff. You are doing pretty good. Okay. Besides me, who else?

51:04

Rob Dierdick was pretty amazing.

Rob Dierdick was pretty amazing.

51:06

I think they're like like you're more of a Rob Dierdick than you are Mark Zuckerberg. That's for sure. You know what I mean? Like, if it's, like, just like one guy, one company, hardcore tech versus, like, little here, little there, little here, all based around, like, a personality.

I think they're like like you're more of a Rob Dierdick than you are Mark Zuckerberg. That's for sure. You know what I mean? Like, if it's, like, just like one guy, one company, hardcore tech versus, like, little here, little there, little here, all based around, like, a personality.

51:18

Yeah. You know,

Yeah. You know,

51:21

What is, like okay. You exited recently. You had to think about what you're gonna do next. Yeah. How did you think about it? What I I actually gave this advice to someone. So what I did, I sold so I sold for enough that,

What is, like okay. You exited recently. You had to think about what you're gonna do next. Yeah. How did you think about it? What I I actually gave this advice to someone. So what I did, I sold so I sold for enough that,

51:33

You don't have to do anything? I don't have to do anything. Not enough that, like, I'm gonna go and buy a crazy enough that I still am ambitious, but enough that, like,

You don't have to do anything? I don't have to do anything. Not enough that, like, I'm gonna go and buy a crazy enough that I still am ambitious, but enough that, like,

51:41

a a fairly luxury level of needs are met forever.

a a fairly luxury level of needs are met forever.

51:45

And what I

And what I

51:46

did I did that and I realized,

did I did that and I realized,

51:48

okay. From the next twelve months,

okay. From the next twelve months,

51:51

but it could be longer. All I'm gonna do is research and think. And I never give anyone that advice because I say you just gotta start and do stuff. And by the end of this weekend, like, have something live. But I'm like, oh, no. I already I know I do that. I I have that ability. So for the next twelve months or however long, I'm gonna feel this sounds like I'm fucking Oprah. I'm gonna be not guilty about, like Yeah. This is so Oprah. There's, like, some booze. Is that is that actually from Oprah?

but it could be longer. All I'm gonna do is research and think. And I never give anyone that advice because I say you just gotta start and do stuff. And by the end of this weekend, like, have something live. But I'm like, oh, no. I already I know I do that. I I have that ability. So for the next twelve months or however long, I'm gonna feel this sounds like I'm fucking Oprah. I'm gonna be not guilty about, like Yeah. This is so Oprah. There's, like, some booze. Is that is that actually from Oprah?

52:17

No. But I was, like, I because, like, you feel guilty about doing You're like, oh, I'm missing out. I'm missing out. I'm like, no. This is like really Oprah. I'm gonna I'm gonna let I'm gonna forgive myself. Yeah. Yeah. Like, this it sound like I need one of those tella hats at chicks wear.

No. But I was, like, I because, like, you feel guilty about doing You're like, oh, I'm missing out. I'm missing out. I'm like, no. This is like really Oprah. I'm gonna I'm gonna let I'm gonna forgive myself. Yeah. Yeah. Like, this it sound like I need one of those tella hats at chicks wear.

52:30

Like, I I I was like, I'm just not gonna be guilty about doing something. I'm just gonna research, I'm gonna read, and when the feeling feels right, it's gonna feel right, and I'm gonna go all in. But until then, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say maybe this stuff. I'm not gonna say yes to anything. I'm gonna say no to everything. I'm just not gonna I'm just not gonna worry about Right. And I just read and I researched. And I think that

Like, I I I was like, I'm just not gonna be guilty about doing something. I'm just gonna research, I'm gonna read, and when the feeling feels right, it's gonna feel right, and I'm gonna go all in. But until then, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say maybe this stuff. I'm not gonna say yes to anything. I'm gonna say no to everything. I'm just not gonna I'm just not gonna worry about Right. And I just read and I researched. And I think that

52:49

I actually think you suck at sitting still.

I actually think you suck at sitting still.

52:51

Yeah. That's why I gotta

Yeah. That's why I gotta

52:53

I gotta do it and forgive myself. Give myself grace. Yeah.

I gotta do it and forgive myself. Give myself grace. Yeah.

52:58

Have grace for myself. But you have to. You gotta chill because, like, someone like you, you can execute.

Have grace for myself. But you have to. You gotta chill because, like, someone like you, you can execute.

53:04

Like, you you already you can do stuff. Right? But then, okay. So you chill, you read, you do other stuff, talk to people and you talk to people. You you inter I mean Jen, and the business that I'm talking

Like, you you already you can do stuff. Right? But then, okay. So you chill, you read, you do other stuff, talk to people and you talk to people. You you inter I mean Jen, and the business that I'm talking

53:15

about, the business that I end up doing now, I interviewed them on the pod. Like, multiple. I was like, I'm just gonna talk to you. Like, I got that go and interview people. So

about, the business that I end up doing now, I interviewed them on the pod. Like, multiple. I was like, I'm just gonna talk to you. Like, I got that go and interview people. So

53:25

so you do that, but how did you resist the temptation to, okay, How many ideas did you have before this one? None. That you were none. You weren't tempted to do anything before that?

so you do that, but how did you resist the temptation to, okay, How many ideas did you have before this one? None. That you were none. You weren't tempted to do anything before that?

53:34

No.

No.

53:35

No. I no. I was not. This is the first idea that you were like, I got gonna do it, and then you just did it. It was the first one that I felt. Okay. I did investing. So I did angel investing. I realized that's stupid and I hate it. I hate Angeline Listing. You're good at it and you love it. I think I'm only good at it because I'm popular, but I don't like I don't like it. And I hate it. It's so boring. Okay. Dude, it's so stupid. So I did that and we invested fifteen million dollars in one year into

No. I no. I was not. This is the first idea that you were like, I got gonna do it, and then you just did it. It was the first one that I felt. Okay. I did investing. So I did angel investing. I realized that's stupid and I hate it. I hate Angeline Listing. You're good at it and you love it. I think I'm only good at it because I'm popular, but I don't like I don't like it. And I hate it. It's so boring. Okay. Dude, it's so stupid. So I did that and we invested fifteen million dollars in one year into

54:02

seventy companies. And so I kinda like went fast on that, and then I realized, uh-uh, I'm out. I hate this. So I bailed.

seventy companies. And so I kinda like went fast on that, and then I realized, uh-uh, I'm out. I hate this. So I bailed.

54:09

So I, like, tinkered with that, but that wasn't, like, a full time thing. We only

So I, like, tinkered with that, but that wasn't, like, a full time thing. We only

54:12

worked on that ten hours a week. Yeah.

worked on that ten hours a week. Yeah.

54:15

So, anyway,

So, anyway,

54:17

I do I just read, like, crazy and talk to people.

I do I just read, like, crazy and talk to people.

54:20

I think you should do that. Why wouldn't you just take, like, eighteen months and just, like That is my plan, not eighteen, but, like Just however long, twelve?

I think you should do that. Why wouldn't you just take, like, eighteen months and just, like That is my plan, not eighteen, but, like Just however long, twelve?

54:26

Basically, it's like, let's take twelve and it's like Listen. Here, this is this analogy or this visualization will help. Imagine your life is this line. Alright? You're about a third all the way through, maybe, twenty five percent of the way, maybe, if we live a long time.

Basically, it's like, let's take twelve and it's like Listen. Here, this is this analogy or this visualization will help. Imagine your life is this line. Alright? You're about a third all the way through, maybe, twenty five percent of the way, maybe, if we live a long time.

54:40

This amount of time, this, like, one inch on this fifteen inch

This amount of time, this, like, one inch on this fifteen inch

54:45

segment. This one inch of time can was gonna impact the rest of the ten inches. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. It changes the color of the rest. It changes the entire trajectory. So why not spend like a ton of time early on -- Right. -- really focusing instead of because

segment. This one inch of time can was gonna impact the rest of the ten inches. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. It changes the color of the rest. It changes the entire trajectory. So why not spend like a ton of time early on -- Right. -- really focusing instead of because

54:59

there's a chance that had you done that previously, which you didn't have the luxury to. But had you done that previously

there's a chance that had you done that previously, which you didn't have the luxury to. But had you done that previously

55:05

or maybe you didn't have a luxury too? Would have made better decisions. You would have made better decisions and you would have gone all in on one thing. What if which have cumulatively

or maybe you didn't have a luxury too? Would have made better decisions. You would have made better decisions and you would have gone all in on one thing. What if which have cumulatively

55:12

made more than all the other stuff combined. Right. And so the question then is, the fear I have is

made more than all the other stuff combined. Right. And so the question then is, the fear I have is

55:18

how do I make sure that's not just

how do I make sure that's not just

55:19

kind of like, like, sort of like a how will I know. Also,

kind of like, like, sort of like a how will I know. Also,

55:25

how

how

55:26

do I do it in a way that's not just absolutely mandering or maybe that's alright. Maybe this must be meandering. I I think that's alright because that's not your personality. And so just by meandering,

do I do it in a way that's not just absolutely mandering or maybe that's alright. Maybe this must be meandering. I I think that's alright because that's not your personality. And so just by meandering,

55:35

like, it it's almost like it's almost like most people, we have it to tell them that hit on the gas harder with you. You're a car whose back wheels, we lift it up, and you're already going all the way as hard as you can. And all we're gonna be doing is just figuring out which direction we're gonna place that car. And then when we're ready, we're gonna drop it. That's a good analogy. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Most people

like, it it's almost like it's almost like most people, we have it to tell them that hit on the gas harder with you. You're a car whose back wheels, we lift it up, and you're already going all the way as hard as you can. And all we're gonna be doing is just figuring out which direction we're gonna place that car. And then when we're ready, we're gonna drop it. That's a good analogy. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Most people

55:55

cars. Well, like, most people, we have to, like, fuel that car and, like, no. Go harder. You're good. You're good. You're good. Like, alright. You're already moving a little bit, and I'll go leave it harder. With you, it's like, no, the two thousand gasses down already. Right. Like, we might as well find out the right place to put it and when we put it, you're going all in. Yeah. That's exact. So that's how I would look at it. Alright. I like that. Like, people who are who are who's oven burnt hot when I say, like, they're they're gonna be burning shit just like pick the right thing. Yeah. Like, you know what I'm saying? Remember I made a joke that people made fun of me, but I actually saw it from the the departed. They're like, John Lennon, him a fucking tuba and he's gonna make art. That's what he does. You know what I mean? That's

cars. Well, like, most people, we have to, like, fuel that car and, like, no. Go harder. You're good. You're good. You're good. Like, alright. You're already moving a little bit, and I'll go leave it harder. With you, it's like, no, the two thousand gasses down already. Right. Like, we might as well find out the right place to put it and when we put it, you're going all in. Yeah. That's exact. So that's how I would look at it. Alright. I like that. Like, people who are who are who's oven burnt hot when I say, like, they're they're gonna be burning shit just like pick the right thing. Yeah. Like, you know what I'm saying? Remember I made a joke that people made fun of me, but I actually saw it from the the departed. They're like, John Lennon, him a fucking tuba and he's gonna make art. That's what he does. You know what I mean? That's

56:27

how I feel about, like, whatever our stupid industry is, it's like, I don't know, man. Just like, give me a computer get out of the way and I could figure out how to, like, be cool, but not be cool, but, like, make something at least somewhat intriguing because that's just what I love doing. I think the same one hundred percent with you. Alright. I like that. That's good. Right? What yeah. I like it. Also,

how I feel about, like, whatever our stupid industry is, it's like, I don't know, man. Just like, give me a computer get out of the way and I could figure out how to, like, be cool, but not be cool, but, like, make something at least somewhat intriguing because that's just what I love doing. I think the same one hundred percent with you. Alright. I like that. That's good. Right? What yeah. I like it. Also,

56:44

the last podcast, you have me one a hundred percent convinced that AI is the thing.

the last podcast, you have me one a hundred percent convinced that AI is the thing.

56:49

So I would go into AI.

So I would go into AI.

56:51

Yeah. That could be it. I just think that that's like a huge pawn and you just cast anywhere out in that pond and you're gonna have a winner. Yeah. That's fair. You think so?

Yeah. That could be it. I just think that that's like a huge pawn and you just cast anywhere out in that pond and you're gonna have a winner. Yeah. That's fair. You think so?

57:00

It seems that way at the moment, but I think it's more like If it's, like, if I was gonna meander or wander around, I'll definitely spending some time in that neighborhood to see what's up. I'm trying all the different bars. It's still early enough. People where the best tacos are. I'm talking to people and being like, what was here before this? And that's that's what I would do in in that space before. Right? Just

It seems that way at the moment, but I think it's more like If it's, like, if I was gonna meander or wander around, I'll definitely spending some time in that neighborhood to see what's up. I'm trying all the different bars. It's still early enough. People where the best tacos are. I'm talking to people and being like, what was here before this? And that's that's what I would do in in that space before. Right? Just

57:19

to do so. It's still early enough to it. You could take time. Like, you take your time. You could take six to twelve months off and and just relax. I talked to someone the other day who works at Open AI, and I was like,

to do so. It's still early enough to it. You could take time. Like, you take your time. You could take six to twelve months off and and just relax. I talked to someone the other day who works at Open AI, and I was like,

57:29

You're and this guy is, like, a little bit naturally of a pessimist. Like, he's, like, not a he doesn't just believe in hype.

You're and this guy is, like, a little bit naturally of a pessimist. Like, he's, like, not a he doesn't just believe in hype.

57:35

And I was, like, hey, is this legit? And he goes, yeah, it's legit. I was like, should I do I have to be worried that it's gonna, like, take over

And I was, like, hey, is this legit? And he goes, yeah, it's legit. I was like, should I do I have to be worried that it's gonna, like, take over

57:42

the world? He's like, no.

the world? He's like, no.

57:44

I don't know when that will happen or even if it will happen because it's we are a bit away, but, like, in terms of just, like, replacing, like, developer's

I don't know when that will happen or even if it will happen because it's we are a bit away, but, like, in terms of just, like, replacing, like, developer's

57:51

jobs,

jobs,

57:52

or,

or,

57:53

just like making life easier and, like, for just, like, for art, making new tests of art, it's one hundred percent legit, and it's almost here. It's basically here. Right. And so I think that's, like, that stuff's pretty amazing.

just like making life easier and, like, for just, like, for art, making new tests of art, it's one hundred percent legit, and it's almost here. It's basically here. Right. And so I think that's, like, that stuff's pretty amazing.

58:04

She would do a hot one? Yeah.

She would do a hot one? Yeah.

58:07

I guess. Alright. Let's try it. How hot is it? I don't know. I've never tried this before. I don't wanna get, like, panic attack.

I guess. Alright. Let's try it. How hot is it? I don't know. I've never tried this before. I don't wanna get, like, panic attack.

58:14

Where's this place? That'll that'll make a good thumbnail, though.

Where's this place? That'll that'll make a good thumbnail, though.

58:16

Where's this place from? I've got I do I doord asked you.

Where's this place from? I've got I do I doord asked you.

58:20

Is it hot? No. Is that hot? Maybe this is not the hot one. Let's see. No.

Is it hot? No. Is that hot? Maybe this is not the hot one. Let's see. No.

58:25

I don't think so.

I don't think so.

58:26

I think this is supposed to be the hot one, but

I think this is supposed to be the hot one, but

58:29

not that hot. That's not hot. Right? No. This one's hotter. I don't wanna eat, like, a a ton of it and for it to, like Chicken. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

not that hot. That's not hot. Right? No. This one's hotter. I don't wanna eat, like, a a ton of it and for it to, like Chicken. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

58:38

Like, it's not hot.

Like, it's not hot.

58:40

I don't think it's bad

I don't think it's bad

58:42

at all. Yeah. I think you got caught. Yeah. It's alright.

at all. Yeah. I think you got caught. Yeah. It's alright.

58:46

Rick Ross probably owns this wing place.

Rick Ross probably owns this wing place.

58:49

Does he have a wing place? Yeah. He owns, like,

Does he have a wing place? Yeah. He owns, like,

58:52

thirty wing stops. He's, you know, he's, like, the rap version of shaq. I'm saying, like, he owns, like, five guys and shit. Should we just do that on, like, thirty big stops? No, dude. So I've been in the Airbnb and, like, real estate game, it's that's whack too. I thought that was dope. It's whack. It's just it takes too long. It's just too slow. Like, I I will come up with an idea and wanna do something and, get results if you're building something for eighteen months, twenty four months. Right. Or with, like, a rental, let's do this, this, and this. And, like, I don't know if it's any cool for three months.

thirty wing stops. He's, you know, he's, like, the rap version of shaq. I'm saying, like, he owns, like, five guys and shit. Should we just do that on, like, thirty big stops? No, dude. So I've been in the Airbnb and, like, real estate game, it's that's whack too. I thought that was dope. It's whack. It's just it takes too long. It's just too slow. Like, I I will come up with an idea and wanna do something and, get results if you're building something for eighteen months, twenty four months. Right. Or with, like, a rental, let's do this, this, and this. And, like, I don't know if it's any cool for three months.

59:21

Or if it's, like, you know, if it's actually a good idea. No. I think real estate's stupid. I think it's really cool to invest in, but, like, as a creative person,

Or if it's, like, you know, if it's actually a good idea. No. I think real estate's stupid. I think it's really cool to invest in, but, like, as a creative person,

59:29

It's whack.

It's whack.

59:30

Yeah. I see. It's like no dopamine rush either. Yeah. But people are like, oh, buy boring businesses, invest in boring businesses,

Yeah. I see. It's like no dopamine rush either. Yeah. But people are like, oh, buy boring businesses, invest in boring businesses,

59:37

I'm like I'm a little born in the country.

I'm like I'm a little born in the country.

59:39

It's in the name. Yeah. Like, I also in the name guys. Yeah. Okay. Like, where's the buy exciting business?

It's in the name. Yeah. Like, I also in the name guys. Yeah. Okay. Like, where's the buy exciting business?

59:47

Yeah. They're talking about point boosters. I bro. What you want is something that's boring to other people, but not boring to you. If it was also boring to you, like, come on. You wasted your talent. I don't want boring life. Yeah. Exactly. I see that stuff too. I'm like, man, I don't want and I don't wanna work with a guy who runs a dry cleaning company. I just like to be up I you know, I'll be, like,

Yeah. They're talking about point boosters. I bro. What you want is something that's boring to other people, but not boring to you. If it was also boring to you, like, come on. You wasted your talent. I don't want boring life. Yeah. Exactly. I see that stuff too. I'm like, man, I don't want and I don't wanna work with a guy who runs a dry cleaning company. I just like to be up I you know, I'll be, like,

01:00:06

sitting outside on the corner, like, king of the hill. Like, yep. Like, I don't wanna have that conversation.

sitting outside on the corner, like, king of the hill. Like, yep. Like, I don't wanna have that conversation.

01:00:11

You know what I mean? I don't wanna talk about it. Yeah. I wanna, like, do stuff.

You know what I mean? I don't wanna talk about it. Yeah. I wanna, like, do stuff.

01:00:17

Yeah. These are alright. That that's not hot though, is it? Yeah. Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot? See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess. But HubSpot easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. Hey, guys. I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. Hubspot,

Yeah. These are alright. That that's not hot though, is it? Yeah. Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot? See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess. But HubSpot easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. Hey, guys. I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. Hubspot,

01:00:36

grow better.

grow better.

01:00:38

Where do you wanna go with this episode?

Where do you wanna go with this episode?

01:00:41

I don't know. What would make it interesting? It's a little bit spelt, by the way. Oh, thank you. You wanna finish with, like, a a rapid fire

I don't know. What would make it interesting? It's a little bit spelt, by the way. Oh, thank you. You wanna finish with, like, a a rapid fire

01:00:48

hot seat questions?

hot seat questions?

01:00:49

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:00:50

That I think that's the hot one. This one. Right? That's so hotter. That one's

That I think that's the hot one. This one. Right? That's so hotter. That one's

01:00:55

hotter.

hotter.

01:00:58

That one actually is hot for me. There we go. The milk is coming into play. That was

That one actually is hot for me. There we go. The milk is coming into play. That was

01:01:03

hot. Alright. Let me dip this one in. Oh, this is almond milk, by the way. Alright.

hot. Alright. Let me dip this one in. Oh, this is almond milk, by the way. Alright.

01:01:11

What's the rapid fire?

What's the rapid fire?

01:01:13

Alright. Let me think of questions.

Alright. Let me think of questions.

01:01:15

Alright. Hot seat question.

Alright. Hot seat question.

01:01:17

Here's number one.

Here's number one.

01:01:20

Would you rather be

Would you rather be

01:01:22

three times as famous and half as rich as you are today

three times as famous and half as rich as you are today

01:01:25

or stay as you are?

or stay as you are?

01:01:27

Stay as I am.

Stay as I am.

01:01:29

Why?

Why?

01:01:31

I'm married.

I'm married.

01:01:32

Being famous isn't that cool. I mean, what's the point? Like for single people. Yeah. What what?

Being famous isn't that cool. I mean, what's the point? Like for single people. Yeah. What what?

01:01:37

What advantage does fame have at this point? I mean, some people hold my ego, but, like, I Some people just feels good. And then also,

What advantage does fame have at this point? I mean, some people hold my ego, but, like, I Some people just feels good. And then also,

01:01:45

you could argue

you could argue

01:01:46

that if you were three times more famous, you could actually

that if you were three times more famous, you could actually

01:01:49

earn a bunch more too. So, you know, it could make other things easy. I'd rather be

earn a bunch more too. So, you know, it could make other things easy. I'd rather be

01:01:53

two times as rich

two times as rich

01:01:55

twice as funny

twice as funny

01:01:56

and half as ripped or twice as ripped and half as funny. Being funnier is better for for like picking up girls and having guy friends probably so funny.

and half as ripped or twice as ripped and half as funny. Being funnier is better for for like picking up girls and having guy friends probably so funny.

01:02:06

Well, you said you're married while you try to pick up girls. I send me guys too.

Well, you said you're married while you try to pick up girls. I send me guys too.

01:02:10

Didn't I say that?

Didn't I say that?

01:02:14

I know being ripped seems to do it too.

I know being ripped seems to do it too.

01:02:16

No. Be dude there.

No. Be dude there.

01:02:18

Yeah. Be it funny's better. Being funny's way better. What would would you rather be funny? I'm all in on fun. What about,

Yeah. Be it funny's better. Being funny's way better. What would would you rather be funny? I'm all in on fun. What about,

01:02:24

the fame or wealth? Being half is funny, that would be, like,

the fame or wealth? Being half is funny, that would be, like,

01:02:28

That'd be really sad. Like, you could be half as

That'd be really sad. Like, you could be half as

01:02:31

fit,

fit,

01:02:32

and you could kinda recover. If you're half as funny, there's just no recovering that. That's, like, the end of the game for you. And you are you were half as fit three years ago, and you were doing fine. Yeah. Exactly.

and you could kinda recover. If you're half as funny, there's just no recovering that. That's, like, the end of the game for you. And you are you were half as fit three years ago, and you were doing fine. Yeah. Exactly.

01:02:42

I've been here before.

I've been here before.

01:02:45

Hello, my old friend.

Hello, my old friend.

01:02:47

Thanks to see you again.

Thanks to see you again.

01:02:49

What,

What,

01:02:50

what about the other one?

what about the other one?

01:02:52

Tell me oh, yeah. What's the highest stakes negotiation you've ever been in? Just selling the company. What about you? Well, when did it feel high stakes for you? Was there a moment? I'm almost positive every single day. There's a chance I can kill the deal.

Tell me oh, yeah. What's the highest stakes negotiation you've ever been in? Just selling the company. What about you? Well, when did it feel high stakes for you? Was there a moment? I'm almost positive every single day. There's a chance I can kill the deal.

01:03:06

The HubSpot CEO,

The HubSpot CEO,

01:03:07

did I tell you this? No. You know he got into a Oh, the car that's ski incident, the day after. Right? It was even worse.

did I tell you this? No. You know he got into a Oh, the car that's ski incident, the day after. Right? It was even worse.

01:03:14

Brian was on the pod. He told you about it. He him and his son were snowmobiling in Vermont or wherever people Snowmobile, I don't fucking know. And, like, his son hit the gas instead of the break, and they ran into his dad, Brian,

Brian was on the pod. He told you about it. He him and his son were snowmobiling in Vermont or wherever people Snowmobile, I don't fucking know. And, like, his son hit the gas instead of the break, and they ran into his dad, Brian,

01:03:29

and they fall over a cliff. And it was either, like, twelve or twenty four hours that he just sat there. He's like and he said goodbye to his son, and he's like, You know? That might be it. Yeah. This is it. And

and they fall over a cliff. And it was either, like, twelve or twenty four hours that he just sat there. He's like and he said goodbye to his son, and he's like, You know? That might be it. Yeah. This is it. And

01:03:40

suddenly, they get cell phone service and someone comes and finds them. And then afterwards he comes back and quits. And close the

suddenly, they get cell phone service and someone comes and finds them. And then afterwards he comes back and quits. And close the

01:03:49

Did you text Sam Debit? Yes.

Did you text Sam Debit? Yes.

01:03:52

One more That

One more That

01:03:54

happened

happened

01:03:55

two weeks

two weeks

01:04:01

after the deal closed.

after the deal closed.

01:04:03

And, like, I think that company is big enough that him, like,

And, like, I think that company is big enough that him, like,

01:04:06

frankly dying. Put a pause on it. Yeah. Like, would I don't know if that would've

frankly dying. Put a pause on it. Yeah. Like, would I don't know if that would've

01:04:10

Like, I don't know if that would happen. Hey, guys.

Like, I don't know if that would happen. Hey, guys.

01:04:13

Not to be insensitive. Just wanted to check-in if we're still

Not to be insensitive. Just wanted to check-in if we're still

01:04:16

on for the whole

on for the whole

01:04:19

acquisition.

acquisition.

01:04:19

RIP bride, but,

RIP bride, but,

01:04:22

so,

so,

01:04:23

sending out the DocuSign in case the webinar has already yet.

sending out the DocuSign in case the webinar has already yet.

01:04:28

So that I mean, until they understand if you need a day. Yes.

So that I mean, until they understand if you need a day. Yes.

01:04:32

So anything could've killed it. No. No pun intended. Anything

So anything could've killed it. No. No pun intended. Anything

01:04:37

all due respect, Brian. I love Brian. So I'm only joking. But, any anything could

all due respect, Brian. I love Brian. So I'm only joking. But, any anything could

01:04:42

have like, destroyed that deal. And I think that was stressful. So that was the highest one. What was yours?

have like, destroyed that deal. And I think that was stressful. So that was the highest one. What was yours?

01:04:47

Well, I have two. One was I think I've did I tell the auction story when we bought Bevo brand back that tells us here before.

Well, I have two. One was I think I've did I tell the auction story when we bought Bevo brand back that tells us here before.

01:04:54

So Michael tells me at one point, he goes, Hey, we have an opportunity to buy

So Michael tells me at one point, he goes, Hey, we have an opportunity to buy

01:05:00

Beebo bag. Oh, yeah. And you had to go, like, looking like a shmuck so no one knew who you were.

Beebo bag. Oh, yeah. And you had to go, like, looking like a shmuck so no one knew who you were.

01:05:06

That's how I look.

That's how I look.

01:05:08

Thanks, though.

Thanks, though.

01:05:10

But the we go to a courthouse, basically. So so he tells me we're gonna buy back, and we,

But the we go to a courthouse, basically. So so he tells me we're gonna buy back, and we,

01:05:17

and my and my mind, I'm like, awesome.

and my and my mind, I'm like, awesome.

01:05:19

What are we gonna do with it? And he's like, I don't know. We gotta figure something out. He's like, but it's a good domain. You get the email list. Get the domain, you get the hardware, and you get like the legal ownership of that. What hardware?

What are we gonna do with it? And he's like, I don't know. We gotta figure something out. He's like, but it's a good domain. You get the email list. Get the domain, you get the hardware, and you get like the legal ownership of that. What hardware?

01:05:29

Like, whatever servers or whatever they had. So,

Like, whatever servers or whatever they had. So,

01:05:32

And so we we were like, okay. What is this worth? And so we came up with, we're just like, my we sat in this room trying to speculate.

And so we we were like, okay. What is this worth? And so we came up with, we're just like, my we sat in this room trying to speculate.

01:05:38

And then Michael just, like, put down the hammer at one point. He's like, I don't think we're gonna be able to buy it for less than a million. And I don't think I really wanna pay much more than a million. So let's do it with a million. That's your bid. So we fly to LA.

And then Michael just, like, put down the hammer at one point. He's like, I don't think we're gonna be able to buy it for less than a million. And I don't think I really wanna pay much more than a million. So let's do it with a million. That's your bid. So we fly to LA.

01:05:49

It's me, our lawyer and our COO, and we get to a courthouse.

It's me, our lawyer and our COO, and we get to a courthouse.

01:05:53

And I'm, like, is that a courthouse? What do we can do? Stay in front of a judge, like, And the judge goes, okay. Are there multiple bid multiple parties here to buy it out of bankruptcy?

And I'm, like, is that a courthouse? What do we can do? Stay in front of a judge, like, And the judge goes, okay. Are there multiple bid multiple parties here to buy it out of bankruptcy?

01:06:02

Yeah. And then we don't know who else is gonna be there. We don't know if anyone else is gonna be there. And there's two other groups that raise their hand. And then she was like, alright. Go to that room, and you're gonna auction against each other to see who wins.

Yeah. And then we don't know who else is gonna be there. We don't know if anyone else is gonna be there. And there's two other groups that raise their hand. And then she was like, alright. Go to that room, and you're gonna auction against each other to see who wins.

01:06:14

It's like, what? Can we go to this tiny room? Just get a fight. Yeah. Basically,

It's like, what? Can we go to this tiny room? Just get a fight. Yeah. Basically,

01:06:18

and one person from each. It's like

and one person from each. It's like

01:06:22

one person from each team got to sit at the table, everyone else was behind them, like, oh, and so then it's us, and then it's match dot com, and it's,

one person from each team got to sit at the table, everyone else was behind them, like, oh, and so then it's us, and then it's match dot com, and it's,

01:06:31

some other social

some other social

01:06:33

network. Well, like IAC, they own a bunch of internet properties

network. Well, like IAC, they own a bunch of internet properties

01:06:35

that they wanted to buy. It's kinda like vaulturing. Yeah. They were, like, work at a harvest profiles and use them for dating. It's like, what? Like, the SEO. We need that SEO juice. It's like, damn. I hope you guys don't win. That sounds awful.

that they wanted to buy. It's kinda like vaulturing. Yeah. They were, like, work at a harvest profiles and use them for dating. It's like, what? Like, the SEO. We need that SEO juice. It's like, damn. I hope you guys don't win. That sounds awful.

01:06:47

Where were the people kind of one another? Or were they, like, pulled off? You just sit down and it's, like, bid. And we're like, oh, here, I'm the representative from this, this, this, this. Alright. So it starts, and it's like, we'll start the bidding at a hundred thousand, and then it'll go up by fifty thousand increments.

Where were the people kind of one another? Or were they, like, pulled off? You just sit down and it's, like, bid. And we're like, oh, here, I'm the representative from this, this, this, this. Alright. So it starts, and it's like, we'll start the bidding at a hundred thousand, and then it'll go up by fifty thousand increments.

01:07:03

Up to five hundred thousand, and then it'll just be free form after that. We'll be here as long as it takes to finish the bid. And you get like a minute in between, or you get like a minute between or two minutes or something like that in between bids to decide if you're gonna bid. And so if it goes a hundred, hundred fifty, two hundred, two fifty. So on and so forth, goes up to seven hundred thousand, and then the guy

Up to five hundred thousand, and then it'll just be free form after that. We'll be here as long as it takes to finish the bid. And you get like a minute in between, or you get like a minute between or two minutes or something like that in between bids to decide if you're gonna bid. And so if it goes a hundred, hundred fifty, two hundred, two fifty. So on and so forth, goes up to seven hundred thousand, and then the guy

01:07:20

One guy drops out. So his ministers doesn't match.

One guy drops out. So his ministers doesn't match.

01:07:23

He calls time out.

He calls time out.

01:07:24

He's like, we need to go make a phone call right before seven. That's like getting in a fight with someone and being like, time out.

He's like, we need to go make a phone call right before seven. That's like getting in a fight with someone and being like, time out.

01:07:30

You can't do that. It's exactly what happened. He got punched in the nose and he's like, time out. So we're at seven hundred fifty thousand.

You can't do that. It's exactly what happened. He got punched in the nose and he's like, time out. So we're at seven hundred fifty thousand.

01:07:37

And they go outside, they have to make a phone call to their boss. And I was like, oh,

And they go outside, they have to make a phone call to their boss. And I was like, oh,

01:07:42

my son. You having a boss? Yeah. If you, like, tattled on them, you're like, sir, is that? So I try to go eavesdrop. I walk outside. They immediately stop talking. I just go to the restroom twice just to see if I can pick up anything.

my son. You having a boss? Yeah. If you, like, tattled on them, you're like, sir, is that? So I try to go eavesdrop. I walk outside. They immediately stop talking. I just go to the restroom twice just to see if I can pick up anything.

01:07:52

And then the and I come back in. I'm like, I talked to Laura. I was like, Okay. They're calling at seven hundred fifty thousand. They're probably getting authorization to go up. That was probably their max. They're probably getting authorization. Probably the highest they can go is a million.

And then the and I come back in. I'm like, I talked to Laura. I was like, Okay. They're calling at seven hundred fifty thousand. They're probably getting authorization to go up. That was probably their max. They're probably getting authorization. Probably the highest they can go is a million.

01:08:04

And I told the, like, auctioneer person, I was like, no more timeouts. Like, that can't we can't do that again. And so she could they come back in. She's like, there's no more time I'm like, okay. Cool. The pressure is on them now,

And I told the, like, auctioneer person, I was like, no more timeouts. Like, that can't we can't do that again. And so she could they come back in. She's like, there's no more time I'm like, okay. Cool. The pressure is on them now,

01:08:14

and bidding goes eight hundred, eight fifty, nine hundred,

and bidding goes eight hundred, eight fifty, nine hundred,

01:08:17

nine fifty. When you are going when you make your bid for nine hundred, you say like, Oh, well, that's the thing. So we had been acting like that to be like Are you kidding me guys? And then I then I told the lawyer, but you're like, I built this thing. It's not worth that. I go

nine fifty. When you are going when you make your bid for nine hundred, you say like, Oh, well, that's the thing. So we had been acting like that to be like Are you kidding me guys? And then I then I told the lawyer, but you're like, I built this thing. It's not worth that. I go

01:08:32

I go, we gotta just act like we have an infinite bankroll so that they just feel like they can't win this auction. And so I said, as soon as they say a number, just top immediately top it with no hesitation. Just, like, not like, we're here all day. I could say, I could I could go on and on and on. And so that's what she did. She changed up her demeanor started doing that. And basically, we got to a million. And at a million, she pulls a great move. She doesn't say a million. She goes, one million twenty five thousand.

I go, we gotta just act like we have an infinite bankroll so that they just feel like they can't win this auction. And so I said, as soon as they say a number, just top immediately top it with no hesitation. Just, like, not like, we're here all day. I could say, I could I could go on and on and on. And so that's what she did. She changed up her demeanor started doing that. And basically, we got to a million. And at a million, she pulls a great move. She doesn't say a million. She goes, one million twenty five thousand.

01:08:56

To just up it. And as they got know that they were all were stopped at a million. We knew they had gotten authorization for a round number. So I think it was actually one million and ten. I think she did. She had ten thousand above And they just go, you guys can have it. You guys can take it, and they were like, yo, our our max was a million. Just knocked them.

To just up it. And as they got know that they were all were stopped at a million. We knew they had gotten authorization for a round number. So I think it was actually one million and ten. I think she did. She had ten thousand above And they just go, you guys can have it. You guys can take it, and they were like, yo, our our max was a million. Just knocked them.

01:09:13

I was like, yeah.

I was like, yeah.

01:09:15

And so we got it and then we, like, camping. But that was, like, the most high stakes, like, hand of poker I've ever been involved in, basically.

And so we got it and then we, like, camping. But that was, like, the most high stakes, like, hand of poker I've ever been involved in, basically.

01:09:23

Alright. We'll do We'll do one more.

Alright. We'll do We'll do one more.

01:09:27

I can't read it from back here. What what were the questions that you told me?

I can't read it from back here. What what were the questions that you told me?

01:09:30

Another one was like, what is the,

Another one was like, what is the,

01:09:35

I don't know. Like, what's the Oh, so something that you thought you were onto something, but it turned out to become totally wrong. Yeah. You thought you were onto something. You turned out. What's yours?

I don't know. Like, what's the Oh, so something that you thought you were onto something, but it turned out to become totally wrong. Yeah. You thought you were onto something. You turned out. What's yours?

01:09:43

We had one when,

We had one when,

01:09:45

building Blab, basically, like, when we built Blab, it looked like it was taken off. And this is now, like, four years in

building Blab, basically, like, when we built Blab, it looked like it was taken off. And this is now, like, four years in

01:09:51

And imagine you're four years in and you feel like you might have just, like, made the next big, like, basically what clubhouse ended became. That's what Blab was. And we started seeing this like rapid growth and people loved it and everybody felt it was new and fresh. Everything else we had made, people were like, oh, this is just like Snapchat. And no matter what we did, they're like, Yes. It's kinda like Snapchat.

And imagine you're four years in and you feel like you might have just, like, made the next big, like, basically what clubhouse ended became. That's what Blab was. And we started seeing this like rapid growth and people loved it and everybody felt it was new and fresh. Everything else we had made, people were like, oh, this is just like Snapchat. And no matter what we did, they're like, Yes. It's kinda like Snapchat.

01:10:09

And we're like, goddamn it. Like, the next thing we build is not gonna be like Snapchat no matter what. That was blabbing. It takes off to two hundred thousand users pretty quickly. It gets to a million users.

And we're like, goddamn it. Like, the next thing we build is not gonna be like Snapchat no matter what. That was blabbing. It takes off to two hundred thousand users pretty quickly. It gets to a million users.

01:10:18

And VC, you know, founders fund wants to invest and all this stuff.

And VC, you know, founders fund wants to invest and all this stuff.

01:10:22

And it felt like

And it felt like

01:10:24

wait, did it. Like, this is gonna be the next social thing, and we own it. Like, we are actually gonna own one of those things.

wait, did it. Like, this is gonna be the next social thing, and we own it. Like, we are actually gonna own one of those things.

01:10:30

And then it got to about four million, and then it started to just re we started to realize, why isn't the number going up as I don't know. Sign ups are still up. It's like, oh, it's super leaky. The retention, like, the retention has been getting worse and worse. It start out okay, and now it's just pretty bad. And this was all the span of And it's like an impossible problem to solve too. It's not like you do. Like, even if you operate at a plus level,

And then it got to about four million, and then it started to just re we started to realize, why isn't the number going up as I don't know. Sign ups are still up. It's like, oh, it's super leaky. The retention, like, the retention has been getting worse and worse. It start out okay, and now it's just pretty bad. And this was all the span of And it's like an impossible problem to solve too. It's not like you do. Like, even if you operate at a plus level,

01:10:51

It's just like a Retention is like the pro retention is the thing that's worth anything in business. And retention is the thing that's also the hardest to solve. Because, like, it's like dating. Like, you if you wanted to pick up somebody that's, like, just getting users, like, you could change the way you look You could teach you two pickup lines and, like, finding the keeper. Yeah. Once he was If I can get you some, you know, a shirt that fits you a little bit better and, like, you know, whatever pick the booger out of your nose, you can get the you can go get their number.

It's just like a Retention is like the pro retention is the thing that's worth anything in business. And retention is the thing that's also the hardest to solve. Because, like, it's like dating. Like, you if you wanted to pick up somebody that's, like, just getting users, like, you could change the way you look You could teach you two pickup lines and, like, finding the keeper. Yeah. Once he was If I can get you some, you know, a shirt that fits you a little bit better and, like, you know, whatever pick the booger out of your nose, you can get the you can go get their number.

01:11:17

But you can't make them date you. You can't make them marry you. And, like, that's what retention is. It's like, are they gonna marry your product or not? And so once I knew that was a problem, I was like, oh, god. We tried so many things to try to fix it. It was just like, not not moving because it's more fundamental. It's like, Is this a thing people want to do all the time or not?

But you can't make them date you. You can't make them marry you. And, like, that's what retention is. It's like, are they gonna marry your product or not? And so once I knew that was a problem, I was like, oh, god. We tried so many things to try to fix it. It was just like, not not moving because it's more fundamental. It's like, Is this a thing people want to do all the time or not?

01:11:34

It's very hard to, like, spam them with notifications to try to get that number up. So the year we sold the hustle

It's very hard to, like, spam them with notifications to try to get that number up. So the year we sold the hustle

01:11:40

you know, we sold in February, so we set a whole year ahead of us. But I think we probably would have done around twenty million in sales.

you know, we sold in February, so we set a whole year ahead of us. But I think we probably would have done around twenty million in sales.

01:11:46

And

And

01:11:47

I started the company wanting to hit a hundred million in revenue before year ten.

I started the company wanting to hit a hundred million in revenue before year ten.

01:11:52

And

And

01:11:53

we sold it between four and five, I think, year four and five.

we sold it between four and five, I think, year four and five.

01:11:56

So we're kind of on track. You would've got there. Yeah. Probably. We could've maybe could've gotten there. And I knew I could, like, I started the company with just an email, even though people said it's stupid because I was like, remember telling you it was stupid. I was like, do video. Do do Facebook videos. Yeah. But I was like, oh Snapchat Instagram. The math is such that, like, I'm pretty sure that, like,

So we're kind of on track. You would've got there. Yeah. Probably. We could've maybe could've gotten there. And I knew I could, like, I started the company with just an email, even though people said it's stupid because I was like, remember telling you it was stupid. I was like, do video. Do do Facebook videos. Yeah. But I was like, oh Snapchat Instagram. The math is such that, like, I'm pretty sure that, like,

01:12:14

You know, people are kinda dismissing this as like a hobby, but look, if you like, just change a ten thousand person email list to like five million, like the numbers add up to a hundred million dollars.

You know, people are kinda dismissing this as like a hobby, but look, if you like, just change a ten thousand person email list to like five million, like the numbers add up to a hundred million dollars.

01:12:25

No one's real I don't know anyone who's ever done that, but I'm pretty sure that could happen. Like, I understand the math and, like, each seller of advertising would sell one point million dollars of ads, and there are already people that do that. So if I just hire, like, you know, a hundred of them, like, things add up, like, this could all work out fine, actually. But I didn't truly believe my own prediction. Even though I knew, like, this list lines up. Yeah. You could tell everybody else, but -- Yeah. -- telling yourself in your head is different. I was like, this works. Actually, this works. And I didn't entirely believe it. And so I sold right when I got, like, a pretty decent offer because I wanted to secure the bag, but in reality,

No one's real I don't know anyone who's ever done that, but I'm pretty sure that could happen. Like, I understand the math and, like, each seller of advertising would sell one point million dollars of ads, and there are already people that do that. So if I just hire, like, you know, a hundred of them, like, things add up, like, this could all work out fine, actually. But I didn't truly believe my own prediction. Even though I knew, like, this list lines up. Yeah. You could tell everybody else, but -- Yeah. -- telling yourself in your head is different. I was like, this works. Actually, this works. And I didn't entirely believe it. And so I sold right when I got, like, a pretty decent offer because I wanted to secure the bag, but in reality,

01:13:00

I made a mistake. I didn't make a mistake because I actually would have did the same thing again, but

I made a mistake. I didn't make a mistake because I actually would have did the same thing again, but

01:13:04

I could have achieved my goal. Right. Now looking back at know. The morning bruce kinda doing that. Right? They're like seventy five hundred million something like that. Well, they're at,

I could have achieved my goal. Right. Now looking back at know. The morning bruce kinda doing that. Right? They're like seventy five hundred million something like that. Well, they're at,

01:13:12

they're probably eighty million in sales. Yeah. So they're close. So they're, like, getting close. And and I knew and him and I, Austin are good friends now. And we both talked and I'm like, he's like, yeah, you guys actually would have been there, like, they're a year older than us in terms of company. You guys actually would have been there even better because you had subscription revenue.

they're probably eighty million in sales. Yeah. So they're close. So they're, like, getting close. And and I knew and him and I, Austin are good friends now. And we both talked and I'm like, he's like, yeah, you guys actually would have been there, like, they're a year older than us in terms of company. You guys actually would have been there even better because you had subscription revenue.

01:13:28

And he was like, you're and he's he was like, I'm actually amazing at operating things, but you are always way better at, like, inventing you shit, and we would just copy you. And, or, you know, he said something like that. And, he is really good at operating though. And,

And he was like, you're and he's he was like, I'm actually amazing at operating things, but you are always way better at, like, inventing you shit, and we would just copy you. And, or, you know, he said something like that. And, he is really good at operating though. And,

01:13:42

I,

I,

01:13:43

that was my biggest mistake.

that was my biggest mistake.

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