00:00

To say in your blog post that you go fifteen thousand dollars a month is all I need. I'm happy. That was like ten years ago, I think. But,

To say in your blog post that you go fifteen thousand dollars a month is all I need. I'm happy. That was like ten years ago, I think. But,

00:06

that's but you used to say fifteen thousand.

that's but you used to say fifteen thousand.

00:09

Single in no kids is easy. Right now, if I had a guess on my burn rate, one twenty to one eighty a month. What? That's insane. So what is how does that break down? So What's the, like, what's the bulk of it? Where the so house probably is the biggest one?

Single in no kids is easy. Right now, if I had a guess on my burn rate, one twenty to one eighty a month. What? That's insane. So what is how does that break down? So What's the, like, what's the bulk of it? Where the so house probably is the biggest one?

00:24

No. I have no mortgage. Okay. Yep. So you're spending a hundred twenty to hundred eighty k without spending anything on your home.

No. I have no mortgage. Okay. Yep. So you're spending a hundred twenty to hundred eighty k without spending anything on your home.

00:37

So Neil, I I was telling you a little bit about what you're getting into. We record everything by the way. So, like, we just hop into it. But I Sean kinda knows who you are. I've been a fan of yours for, like, ten years. Can I tell Sean and the audience who I think you are? And you could tell me if I'm wrong. And, like, what I'm missing?

So Neil, I I was telling you a little bit about what you're getting into. We record everything by the way. So, like, we just hop into it. But I Sean kinda knows who you are. I've been a fan of yours for, like, ten years. Can I tell Sean and the audience who I think you are? And you could tell me if I'm wrong. And, like, what I'm missing?

00:56

Sure. Go for it. Alright. So you're Neil Patel. So I know you because you used to have this blog called quick sprout. I read it maybe ten years ago. It's probably a fifteen year old blog if I remember correctly. At first, it was mostly about like SEO, but eventually it kinda like warped into being about SEO, about content, but just about business in general.

Sure. Go for it. Alright. So you're Neil Patel. So I know you because you used to have this blog called quick sprout. I read it maybe ten years ago. It's probably a fifteen year old blog if I remember correctly. At first, it was mostly about like SEO, but eventually it kinda like warped into being about SEO, about content, but just about business in general.

01:15

And you would do like crazy stuff. Like, you would build a business made a hundred thousand dollars a month in revenue by, like, you just picked, like, a random niche, and I think it ended up being supplements and you, like, blog every month about how that was going. And you used to blog about all types of crazy stuff. But then eventually you also started a company called Crazyegg, which I heard was doing many millions of dollars year in revenue and it was a bootstrap and you own the whole thing, then you and heat and started kiss metrics and raised a bunch of money. It didn't end up working out wonderfully, but it was like it could have been actually quite huge. Eaton wrote a great blog post about like where,

And you would do like crazy stuff. Like, you would build a business made a hundred thousand dollars a month in revenue by, like, you just picked, like, a random niche, and I think it ended up being supplements and you, like, blog every month about how that was going. And you used to blog about all types of crazy stuff. But then eventually you also started a company called Crazyegg, which I heard was doing many millions of dollars year in revenue and it was a bootstrap and you own the whole thing, then you and heat and started kiss metrics and raised a bunch of money. It didn't end up working out wonderfully, but it was like it could have been actually quite huge. Eaton wrote a great blog post about like where,

01:48

you know, where a couple of errors were made. But now you've got like seven or eight hundred person agency

you know, where a couple of errors were made. But now you've got like seven or eight hundred person agency

01:53

that is also bootstrap, like the rest of your stuff. And you've just kind of been balling out, like, for like fifteen years in the world of business, just killing it with agencies. Is that right? Did I did I get everything mostly right?

that is also bootstrap, like the rest of your stuff. And you've just kind of been balling out, like, for like fifteen years in the world of business, just killing it with agencies. Is that right? Did I did I get everything mostly right?

02:06

Mostly closed.

Mostly closed.

02:07

So crazy. It came first.

So crazy. It came first.

02:09

Ethan's the co founder on that. He has it all or,

Ethan's the co founder on that. He has it all or,

02:13

you know, he owns

you know, he owns

02:15

crazy egg,

crazy egg,

02:17

as well. So it's not just me anymore. And then,

as well. So it's not just me anymore. And then,

02:20

there's another guy named John Butler, who was also part of crazy egg. The beginning.

there's another guy named John Butler, who was also part of crazy egg. The beginning.

02:25

And then

And then

02:26

quick sprout came later.

quick sprout came later.

02:28

I started blogging on it about business and stuff like that.

I started blogging on it about business and stuff like that.

02:32

Kissmetrics

Kissmetrics

02:33

then came. Kissmetrics didn't work out.

then came. Kissmetrics didn't work out.

02:36

Quick sprout started to have a big audience related to marketing. We tried to create a SEO software on there. Do that with my co founder. He then at the time. He's like, alright. How about we create a company out of this? I'll do the software.

Quick sprout started to have a big audience related to marketing. We tried to create a SEO software on there. Do that with my co founder. He then at the time. He's like, alright. How about we create a company out of this? I'll do the software.

02:46

That didn't work out. I didn't wanna be part of it anymore. He took it over.

That didn't work out. I didn't wanna be part of it anymore. He took it over.

02:50

And,

And,

02:52

he ended up making it,

he ended up making it,

02:55

you know, business site directory,

you know, business site directory,

02:57

you know, informational site, whatever you wanted to call it, has affiliate offers, which you already know about. And then the last one was the ad agency, which is correct. And then there's been a lot of stuff in between here and there. A lot didn't work out. But generally speaking,

you know, informational site, whatever you wanted to call it, has affiliate offers, which you already know about. And then the last one was the ad agency, which is correct. And then there's been a lot of stuff in between here and there. A lot didn't work out. But generally speaking,

03:12

I tend to do one thing at once, focus,

I tend to do one thing at once, focus,

03:15

and currently I spend all my time on my ad agency.

and currently I spend all my time on my ad agency.

03:17

And that you're you're at six seven hundred. How how big is that at the moment? And it's only like five or six years old. Right?

And that you're you're at six seven hundred. How how big is that at the moment? And it's only like five or six years old. Right?

03:24

Yeah. So we're on our fifth year end of this year. We'll be end of year five,

Yeah. So we're on our fifth year end of this year. We'll be end of year five,

03:28

we're at roughly seven hundred people. I think maybe a little bit more. Maybe by end of year, nine hundred ish, if I had, I guess.

we're at roughly seven hundred people. I think maybe a little bit more. Maybe by end of year, nine hundred ish, if I had, I guess.

03:35

Who who are these people? Do you have these, like, seven hundred anonymous Indians in India? What's going on? Who are these people? We do have some people in India.

Who who are these people? Do you have these, like, seven hundred anonymous Indians in India? What's going on? Who are these people? We do have some people in India.

03:44

But what's funny is how many people do you employ in New York? That's what I wanna know. That's my agency test. Well, you're in Brazil too, though. Right? Yeah. We're in Brazil. Majority of our people are in the United States. If I look at region wise United States has the biggest head count, we also have offices in Australia, Canada,

But what's funny is how many people do you employ in New York? That's what I wanna know. That's my agency test. Well, you're in Brazil too, though. Right? Yeah. We're in Brazil. Majority of our people are in the United States. If I look at region wise United States has the biggest head count, we also have offices in Australia, Canada,

04:02

UK, Brazil, India.

UK, Brazil, India.

04:04

I think we're opening up Germany soon. We're looking Italy. We're looking at France and a few other regions as well. But our model is is, like, our ad agency in India,

I think we're opening up Germany soon. We're looking Italy. We're looking at France and a few other regions as well. But our model is is, like, our ad agency in India,

04:14

markets companies in India.

markets companies in India.

04:16

It's not really used to outsource

It's not really used to outsource

04:19

American work into India.

American work into India.

04:21

And what work are people doing? Like, what's the service that you're providing?

And what work are people doing? Like, what's the service that you're providing?

04:26

All digital. So like SEO, pay per click, email marketing, conversion rate optimization,

All digital. So like SEO, pay per click, email marketing, conversion rate optimization,

04:31

organic social, paid social. The list goes on and off. And do all the customers come from neil patel dot com?

organic social, paid social. The list goes on and off. And do all the customers come from neil patel dot com?

04:39

It used to be that way. Then we started getting a lot through word-of-mouth. I would have never really guessed that word-of-mouth drives business.

It used to be that way. Then we started getting a lot through word-of-mouth. I would have never really guessed that word-of-mouth drives business.

04:48

How how many could he say? How many?

How how many could he say? How many?

04:51

So most people, I would say, like, our audience would be like, oh, yeah. It's cool to have, like, a personal brand, but me and Sam have figured out, oh, wow. This shit really does open up more doors than you would have expected.

So most people, I would say, like, our audience would be like, oh, yeah. It's cool to have, like, a personal brand, but me and Sam have figured out, oh, wow. This shit really does open up more doors than you would have expected.

05:01

You've been doing this for a long time. So Neil Patel, which like, personal blog where you're talking about, like, you know, hacks and experiments and strategies that you've, you know, figured

You've been doing this for a long time. So Neil Patel, which like, personal blog where you're talking about, like, you know, hacks and experiments and strategies that you've, you know, figured

05:10

out. How many could you say how many millions that brought in in client bookings, what, for the agency? Like, what

out. How many could you say how many millions that brought in in client bookings, what, for the agency? Like, what

05:17

how big did just the referrals from Neil Patel get you before other stuff kicked in? Word-of-mouth and being recognized in the industry and other things like that. I think the Neil Patel brand got us to around, like, thirty, forty million in revenue and then word-of-mouth started kicking in and then other things started kicking in, and employees started bringing in their own deals because they've worked in the space for so long. And then We saw more and more growth, got awards that brought us steals,

how big did just the referrals from Neil Patel get you before other stuff kicked in? Word-of-mouth and being recognized in the industry and other things like that. I think the Neil Patel brand got us to around, like, thirty, forty million in revenue and then word-of-mouth started kicking in and then other things started kicking in, and employees started bringing in their own deals because they've worked in the space for so long. And then We saw more and more growth, got awards that brought us steals,

05:43

being a minority

being a minority

05:45

owned business that helps Believe it or not, there's if you're Indian and you live in the United States, you're considered a minority.

owned business that helps Believe it or not, there's if you're Indian and you live in the United States, you're considered a minority.

05:52

And,

And,

05:53

I was about to say, are we a minority? Thank you, guys. I feel like I never get my door. You feel like you're the majority of CEOs out there. So, I mean

I was about to say, are we a minority? Thank you, guys. I feel like I never get my door. You feel like you're the majority of CEOs out there. So, I mean

06:01

It's funny because we go through RFPs and some of them asked if you're,

It's funny because we go through RFPs and some of them asked if you're,

06:05

what is it? Like, MBE certification or something like that. I forgot what it's called or minority business enterprise.

what is it? Like, MBE certification or something like that. I forgot what it's called or minority business enterprise.

06:12

And I was like, well, I'm not a minority. There's like one plus billion of me in this world. Right? And they're like, oh, you're a minority. I'm like, what is talking about. There's like a billion plus Indian into this world. How are we a minority? And they're like, oh, in America, you're a minority. And in some of these RFPs,

And I was like, well, I'm not a minority. There's like one plus billion of me in this world. Right? And they're like, oh, you're a minority. I'm like, what is talking about. There's like a billion plus Indian into this world. How are we a minority? And they're like, oh, in America, you're a minority. And in some of these RFPs,

06:26

they're looking it says in there, we're looking for,

they're looking it says in there, we're looking for,

06:30

l g b t

l g b t

06:33

q. I I don't know what the

q. I I don't know what the

06:35

all four of the letters are.

all four of the letters are.

06:38

You have the tattoo on your arm. Yeah.

You have the tattoo on your arm. Yeah.

06:40

The cue's there.

The cue's there.

06:43

And then a woman owned businesses, veteran owned businesses, and the other one was minority.

And then a woman owned businesses, veteran owned businesses, and the other one was minority.

06:49

And I was just like, wait, there's actually a quota that these big and five hundred companies had to hit. And they're like, yeah. And I was like, well, I'm a minority. They're like, well, you need the certification.

And I was just like, wait, there's actually a quota that these big and five hundred companies had to hit. And they're like, yeah. And I was like, well, I'm a minority. They're like, well, you need the certification.

06:58

And I was like, I gotta have a certification to tell you that I'm a minority. And at first, I didn't realize I was a minority. They were telling me, oh, you're a minority. We reached out to you. We're hoping that you would be a good bit. And I'm like, I'm a minority and they're like, yeah, you're a minority in the United States, you'd help us meet our quota. Do you have the certification? I'm like, what are you talking about? And then we went through the process and got the certification.

And I was like, I gotta have a certification to tell you that I'm a minority. And at first, I didn't realize I was a minority. They were telling me, oh, you're a minority. We reached out to you. We're hoping that you would be a good bit. And I'm like, I'm a minority and they're like, yeah, you're a minority in the United States, you'd help us meet our quota. Do you have the certification? I'm like, what are you talking about? And then we went through the process and got the certification.

07:19

You gotta get your papers, bro. You gotta get your papers right.

You gotta get your papers, bro. You gotta get your papers right.

07:22

I I would have been offended. And then as soon as I realized, wait, this is my advantage. Oh, hold on.

I I would have been offended. And then as soon as I realized, wait, this is my advantage. Oh, hold on.

07:27

I also got solar panels on my house. Does that help? You know, like, I'm a dog owner.

I also got solar panels on my house. Does that help? You know, like, I'm a dog owner.

07:33

Yeah. Exactly. I have I have a vision impairment,

Yeah. Exactly. I have I have a vision impairment,

07:36

called far sightedness.

called far sightedness.

07:38

And, you know, so what else works in my favor here? You know, like, was the certificate just turned the webcam on and it looked at you and it was like, yep.

And, you know, so what else works in my favor here? You know, like, was the certificate just turned the webcam on and it looked at you and it was like, yep.

07:45

And that was it. That's not enough. And what's funny is our COO or VP Operations, one of the titles forgot what Tracy's title is. She asked me for this, like, six months before we did it. She's like, hey, need your birth certificate. I'm like, yeah, why do you need my birth to be. She's like, oh, we need it for this certification. Like, whatever.

And that was it. That's not enough. And what's funny is our COO or VP Operations, one of the titles forgot what Tracy's title is. She asked me for this, like, six months before we did it. She's like, hey, need your birth certificate. I'm like, yeah, why do you need my birth to be. She's like, oh, we need it for this certification. Like, whatever.

08:02

And the moment someone ended up telling me how,

And the moment someone ended up telling me how,

08:05

magic Johnson generates a lot of his revenue because he's a minority. And gets a lot of contracts, partners with other businesses, white labels it,

magic Johnson generates a lot of his revenue because he's a minority. And gets a lot of contracts, partners with other businesses, white labels it,

08:12

and uses his name becomes a quote unquote owner of that business and then outsourced

and uses his name becomes a quote unquote owner of that business and then outsourced

08:18

Oh, wait. Tell me about that. Give me an example. What's what's what's an example of the magic Johnson formula? Sure. So I don't know if this is true. This is just what someone in the minority space and telling. So that's the caveat. I don't know if this is true or real. And they're saying, let's say if someone has a food company and they have the contracts with a lot of the hot that are run by the government, like the VA.

Oh, wait. Tell me about that. Give me an example. What's what's what's an example of the magic Johnson formula? Sure. So I don't know if this is true. This is just what someone in the minority space and telling. So that's the caveat. I don't know if this is true or real. And they're saying, let's say if someone has a food company and they have the contracts with a lot of the hot that are run by the government, like the VA.

08:38

They're looking for minorities to private, but there's already a lot of big corporations that provide the food. So magic Johnson may go create a business. That's in that space partner with the big supplier who already provides a few to these hospitals,

They're looking for minorities to private, but there's already a lot of big corporations that provide the food. So magic Johnson may go create a business. That's in that space partner with the big supplier who already provides a few to these hospitals,

08:50

he'll go get the contracts and then work with them to actually Yeah. Wait, Sean. You never heard you you never heard of this. My my my in laws.

he'll go get the contracts and then work with them to actually Yeah. Wait, Sean. You never heard you you never heard of this. My my my in laws.

08:57

My in laws own a a moving company and they're minorities. They're,

My in laws own a a moving company and they're minorities. They're,

09:01

black. They're Haitian immigrants.

black. They're Haitian immigrants.

09:03

And the

And the

09:04

they win deals partially because of that reason because like Morgan Stanley or something like that. If they wanna move, they wanna they have some type of policy in their company. It says we we wanna get RFPs for or we wanna get bids from these types of companies.

they win deals partially because of that reason because like Morgan Stanley or something like that. If they wanna move, they wanna they have some type of policy in their company. It says we we wanna get RFPs for or we wanna get bids from these types of companies.

09:19

I had no idea how

I had no idea how

09:22

I didn't obviously, I knew this exists. I just didn't realize how significant it was. I definitely didn't know the magic Johnson formula, which is frankly genius on his part if that's if that's actually what he does. Right. We don't know that part, but if it is true. But think of it this way. Right? It's a quota. So if I go and I get a RFP, let's say, from Boeing, which funny enough we lost the RFP because we're over priced for what they wanted,

I didn't obviously, I knew this exists. I just didn't realize how significant it was. I definitely didn't know the magic Johnson formula, which is frankly genius on his part if that's if that's actually what he does. Right. We don't know that part, but if it is true. But think of it this way. Right? It's a quota. So if I go and I get a RFP, let's say, from Boeing, which funny enough we lost the RFP because we're over priced for what they wanted,

09:43

and -- Races. -- let's say, price is very similar to the competition.

and -- Races. -- let's say, price is very similar to the competition.

09:47

I have the warrants showing that we were the agency of the year like, alright. These guys are good at what they do. We have the case studies.

I have the warrants showing that we were the agency of the year like, alright. These guys are good at what they do. We have the case studies.

09:53

And if we're similar pricing, like, oh, this is minority helps us hit our quota.

And if we're similar pricing, like, oh, this is minority helps us hit our quota.

09:58

Let's give the business year. Right.

Let's give the business year. Right.

10:00

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. You you have some merit, to go with it. For the first thirty million dollars of business, you got that and you must have gotten that by year two or so. If you're growing this fast,

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. You you have some merit, to go with it. For the first thirty million dollars of business, you got that and you must have gotten that by year two or so. If you're growing this fast,

10:10

What was the main year three? Sorry. Year three.

What was the main year three? Sorry. Year three.

10:14

What was the main service? Like, when I think of, like, because I went to your website and I actually submitted a lead to figure it out. There was the maximum you you ask what your website is.

What was the main service? Like, when I think of, like, because I went to your website and I actually submitted a lead to figure it out. There was the maximum you you ask what your website is.

10:25

And what your budget is. And it's like zero to ten thousand, ten thousand, twenty thousand, and then just fifty thousand plus. So were you serving, like, mostly small businesses? And what, like, what were you were you doing as simple stuff as, like, making their yelp page good? Like, what were you doing?

And what your budget is. And it's like zero to ten thousand, ten thousand, twenty thousand, and then just fifty thousand plus. So were you serving, like, mostly small businesses? And what, like, what were you were you doing as simple stuff as, like, making their yelp page good? Like, what were you doing?

10:41

Yeah. So it's not that small. We do have some SMBs like that, but we actually first started off in,

Yeah. So it's not that small. We do have some SMBs like that, but we actually first started off in,

10:47

mid market. Our clients would pay us like a minimum of ten grand a month.

mid market. Our clients would pay us like a minimum of ten grand a month.

10:51

And what would you do for ten thousand a month?

And what would you do for ten thousand a month?

10:54

It it so nothing was cookie cutter. It was all custom. Like maybe they need SEO, maybe they need help on paid management. Maybe they need some CRO or email marketing or a little bit of everything. Right? But the plans with start at a hundred and twenty a year right ten a month and scale up from there to twenty a month, thirty a month, whatever it may be.

It it so nothing was cookie cutter. It was all custom. Like maybe they need SEO, maybe they need help on paid management. Maybe they need some CRO or email marketing or a little bit of everything. Right? But the plans with start at a hundred and twenty a year right ten a month and scale up from there to twenty a month, thirty a month, whatever it may be.

11:13

What was most in vogue as the service when you started? Like, the the trend everybody wanted? And then what's the in vogue thing today? When we first started, it was mainly SEO. And what does that mean though? What does that mean? You use reps or something in your employees, like, look which terms they should rank for, and then you write an article for them?

What was most in vogue as the service when you started? Like, the the trend everybody wanted? And then what's the in vogue thing today? When we first started, it was mainly SEO. And what does that mean though? What does that mean? You use reps or something in your employees, like, look which terms they should rank for, and then you write an article for them?

11:30

So it was optimizing their on page code, helping build links, creating content, promoting the content, and making sure that traffic converted into leads or sales, assuming if they weren't services.

So it was optimizing their on page code, helping build links, creating content, promoting the content, and making sure that traffic converted into leads or sales, assuming if they weren't services.

11:42

And it was a positive ROI or the That sounds like a ton of work for ten thousand dollars a month. It would start at ten. It depended on the keywords, how hard they were to ring for, and it would go up from there.

And it was a positive ROI or the That sounds like a ton of work for ten thousand dollars a month. It would start at ten. It depended on the keywords, how hard they were to ring for, and it would go up from there.

11:54

And what about now? Sam, I love when you describe people's businesses because you're just, like, so what does that mean? You just Google their name and then it doesn't show up, and then you go write an article with their name, and it's, like, What's the hustle? Dude, you just read the New York Times, and then you just cut out half the words, and then you hit send in an email. Like, is that what is that what the hustle is? Yeah.

And what about now? Sam, I love when you describe people's businesses because you're just, like, so what does that mean? You just Google their name and then it doesn't show up, and then you go write an article with their name, and it's, like, What's the hustle? Dude, you just read the New York Times, and then you just cut out half the words, and then you hit send in an email. Like, is that what is that what the hustle is? Yeah.

12:15

Nailed it.

Nailed it.

12:16

I mean, it could be. It, like, like, like, you know,

I mean, it could be. It, like, like, like, you know,

12:19

there's there's always more nuance and complication in reality, but like if you you can explain things in a in a fairly simple way where it's like what's HubSpot? Oh, they just make software. So when you people sign up for your website, you can email them and call them. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you could I'm just trying to dumb it down a little bit.

there's there's always more nuance and complication in reality, but like if you you can explain things in a in a fairly simple way where it's like what's HubSpot? Oh, they just make software. So when you people sign up for your website, you can email them and call them. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you could I'm just trying to dumb it down a little bit.

12:37

But when you look at the business when they first started massive churn, how to add tons of features, how to figure out onboarding, how to figure out a trainee,

But when you look at the business when they first started massive churn, how to add tons of features, how to figure out onboarding, how to figure out a trainee,

12:45

there was a lot of stuff that went to make Hubspot a multibillion dollar company. Right? But a lot of people look at it as email, but they do more than email, they do more than a CRM, They've added actually, if anyone in this space has a ton of traction, they have a history of adding a lot of those features for free, which is a smart model. And then gobble up market share, get them into the ecosystem, and hopefully they stick around.

there was a lot of stuff that went to make Hubspot a multibillion dollar company. Right? But a lot of people look at it as email, but they do more than email, they do more than a CRM, They've added actually, if anyone in this space has a ton of traction, they have a history of adding a lot of those features for free, which is a smart model. And then gobble up market share, get them into the ecosystem, and hopefully they stick around.

13:06

And so what's what's the popular? You should do the ad reads, for us. Yeah. Oh, that was amazing.

And so what's what's the popular? You should do the ad reads, for us. Yeah. Oh, that was amazing.

13:13

By the way, Sam, I think you should make suburban dictionary, which is just you explaining businesses without, like,

By the way, Sam, I think you should make suburban dictionary, which is just you explaining businesses without, like,

13:19

any,

any,

13:20

any of the complicated stuff? Like, yeah, what is it? I wonder if you get customers. I'm gonna call it, like, the two or three palm and email them. The the the three syllable dictionary.

any of the complicated stuff? Like, yeah, what is it? I wonder if you get customers. I'm gonna call it, like, the two or three palm and email them. The the the three syllable dictionary.

13:29

Like, I I explained complicated things, but no word is above three syllables.

Like, I I explained complicated things, but no word is above three syllables.

13:34

That's what we're gonna do. Exactly.

That's what we're gonna do. Exactly.

13:36

What By the way,

What By the way,

13:37

I was just gonna say, Ben brought up one point on that minority thing, Ben. You wanna say that? I I sound pretty interesting. You Slack to something. Neil kinda mentioned this too, but, like, this is really, really,

I was just gonna say, Ben brought up one point on that minority thing, Ben. You wanna say that? I I sound pretty interesting. You Slack to something. Neil kinda mentioned this too, but, like, this is really, really,

13:47

popular in government work because the government is, like, very hardcore about hitting their quotas.

popular in government work because the government is, like, very hardcore about hitting their quotas.

13:53

For racial minorities. And so around here, like I actually know a couple guys. And basically what they do is,

For racial minorities. And so around here, like I actually know a couple guys. And basically what they do is,

14:02

the people I know are all African American. They get the contract. They put their name on the contract. They then outsource the entire thing to, like,

the people I know are all African American. They get the contract. They put their name on the contract. They then outsource the entire thing to, like,

14:09

deloitte or KPMG or whatever.

deloitte or KPMG or whatever.

14:12

And, they take, like, you know, fifteen percent of the revenue or whatever. They create a consulting firm. That's like the minority minority yank. And then minority ink goes against the contracts that farms it out to to, like, Deloitte or whoever.

And, they take, like, you know, fifteen percent of the revenue or whatever. They create a consulting firm. That's like the minority minority yank. And then minority ink goes against the contracts that farms it out to to, like, Deloitte or whoever.

14:23

That's great.

That's great.

14:26

I can find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

I can find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

14:29

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application. Every team can stay aligned. No to sync spreadsheets or dueling databases.

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application. Every team can stay aligned. No to sync spreadsheets or dueling databases.

14:38

HubSpot, grow better.

HubSpot, grow better.

14:42

I I lived in,

I I lived in,

14:44

in Indonesia for a while, and they had such a bad traffic problem. Jakarta has, like, I think the worst traffic in the world. Like, you're just going two miles, you might be there for two hours.

in Indonesia for a while, and they had such a bad traffic problem. Jakarta has, like, I think the worst traffic in the world. Like, you're just going two miles, you might be there for two hours.

14:52

And, so they were like, okay. We need to create, like, a carpool incentive. So how do we create an incentive where if you have three or more people in your car, then you can go in the fast lane. And so this so it worked for, like, you know, a month. It was like, oh, wow. This is great. If we carpool, we get to go faster. And then this, like, little industry sprouted up where people would just stand at the edge of the carpool lane, like a hitchhiker, and they'd be like, I'll get in your car. You want a third rider, I'll I'll just hop in and we could ride in the fast lane. And then they would get off on the other side and ride back with somebody else. And so they would be a professional

And, so they were like, okay. We need to create, like, a carpool incentive. So how do we create an incentive where if you have three or more people in your car, then you can go in the fast lane. And so this so it worked for, like, you know, a month. It was like, oh, wow. This is great. If we carpool, we get to go faster. And then this, like, little industry sprouted up where people would just stand at the edge of the carpool lane, like a hitchhiker, and they'd be like, I'll get in your car. You want a third rider, I'll I'll just hop in and we could ride in the fast lane. And then they would get off on the other side and ride back with somebody else. And so they would be a professional

15:23

like, you know, HOV lane participants. So they would just set spend all day riding with you in your car. So you'd be sitting there, and someone would just get in the back seat with you. It's just like a random indonesian person. And you would pay them ten ten, like, rupees or whatever, and then ten bot. And then they would, you know, get out on the other side a mile later. It was amazing.

like, you know, HOV lane participants. So they would just set spend all day riding with you in your car. So you'd be sitting there, and someone would just get in the back seat with you. It's just like a random indonesian person. And you would pay them ten ten, like, rupees or whatever, and then ten bot. And then they would, you know, get out on the other side a mile later. It was amazing.

15:41

You,

You,

15:42

Neil, was was quick sprout,

Neil, was was quick sprout,

15:45

Ben, there you go. Was quick sprout? I mean, so that was your main business quick sprout and crazy egg were your main business for a while.

Ben, there you go. Was quick sprout? I mean, so that was your main business quick sprout and crazy egg were your main business for a while.

15:53

Before it was just a blog. And then my co founder, he then ended up taking it over, and now it's his blog.

Before it was just a blog. And then my co founder, he then ended up taking it over, and now it's his blog.

16:00

So but what was your main source of of revenue and income? Because I've like I said, I've listened to you forever. Like you've been crushing it. It seems like for financially for like ten plus years. I don't know if I'm crushing it, but, the main source of income was crazy, like, for most of my life. And then it ended up becoming the ad agency.

So but what was your main source of of revenue and income? Because I've like I said, I've listened to you forever. Like you've been crushing it. It seems like for financially for like ten plus years. I don't know if I'm crushing it, but, the main source of income was crazy, like, for most of my life. And then it ended up becoming the ad agency.

16:20

And, Sam, you said something at the very beginning that if I was listening to this, I'd be like, wait.

And, Sam, you said something at the very beginning that if I was listening to this, I'd be like, wait.

16:24

Hold on. I wanna hear that story. You said something like, just for kicks, he would like spin up a business that, like, did a hundred k a month in revenue.

Hold on. I wanna hear that story. You said something like, just for kicks, he would like spin up a business that, like, did a hundred k a month in revenue.

16:31

What's an example of that? Tell that story because that sounds awesome. Yeah. So everyone thinks, like, it's really hard to make money online, and then you got the shysters are like buy this for a thousand dollars and you become rich, which never really happens. Maybe every once in a while, but for most people, it doesn't So I was like, I couldn't create a business on anything. People are like, go create a nutrition business. My audience picked. I gave them, like, a lot of different options. They picked a nutrition business.

What's an example of that? Tell that story because that sounds awesome. Yeah. So everyone thinks, like, it's really hard to make money online, and then you got the shysters are like buy this for a thousand dollars and you become rich, which never really happens. Maybe every once in a while, but for most people, it doesn't So I was like, I couldn't create a business on anything. People are like, go create a nutrition business. My audience picked. I gave them, like, a lot of different options. They picked a nutrition business.

16:53

And I was like, alright. Let's create a blog, get it ranking, do some traffic, and then funnel people in through quizzes, through

And I was like, alright. Let's create a blog, get it ranking, do some traffic, and then funnel people in through quizzes, through

17:01

emails,

emails,

17:02

and let's funnel into

and let's funnel into

17:04

supplements, rank higher on Amazon, get traction, and see what happens, and it did well.

supplements, rank higher on Amazon, get traction, and see what happens, and it did well.

17:10

And that took you, like,

And that took you, like,

17:12

months, years, how long would it take you? It wasn't months. It was much more than that. I think it was, like, a year. Right?

months, years, how long would it take you? It wasn't months. It was much more than that. I think it was, like, a year. Right?

17:18

A little bit less than a year. I think it was, like, nine or ten months.

A little bit less than a year. I think it was, like, nine or ten months.

17:21

So it wasn't, like, one or two months, sadly, but

So it wasn't, like, one or two months, sadly, but

17:25

a little bit less than a year. So it was pretty good. It was an awesome. It was an awesome blog post series show. And you got a Google at Google, like, quick sprout or Neil Patel, then like hundred thousand dollars a month. And it was like a monthly update. It was pretty amazing.

a little bit less than a year. So it was pretty good. It was an awesome. It was an awesome blog post series show. And you got a Google at Google, like, quick sprout or Neil Patel, then like hundred thousand dollars a month. And it was like a monthly update. It was pretty amazing.

17:37

I I I don't think we have deleted it now. I don't know if it's still a line, but and then so I took the money I made from Crazyegg, and I'll park it into other things. So it's like stock market. For a long time, the stock markets had a really crazy run. Right? Then you also have things like investments, a lot of venture funds,

I I I don't think we have deleted it now. I don't know if it's still a line, but and then so I took the money I made from Crazyegg, and I'll park it into other things. So it's like stock market. For a long time, the stock markets had a really crazy run. Right? Then you also have things like investments, a lot of venture funds,

17:54

angel investments,

angel investments,

17:55

And then sometimes you just get lucky, sometimes you don't know this is the numbers game.

And then sometimes you just get lucky, sometimes you don't know this is the numbers game.

18:00

We, had talked about doing a content series like this to grow the podcast I was like, you know, I think one of the best ways to grow the podcast could be if we do a challenge, like, what you had described, and one one of the ideas is, like, what if Sam created his own,

We, had talked about doing a content series like this to grow the podcast I was like, you know, I think one of the best ways to grow the podcast could be if we do a challenge, like, what you had described, and one one of the ideas is, like, what if Sam created his own,

18:12

Sam sticky Yaky, his own a condiment brand, and we basically show how we build a DDC brand, like, from from idea to, like, branding, to marketing, to and we just do it all transparently to, like, like, get people hooked on. Okay. Let me see how you guys actually build this thing. Now it's a lot of work, which is why I think ultimately we didn't do it. But how well did that work for you? Was that, like, just kind of like a good content thing, or was it like, no. That was, like, drove lot of growth for the brand and the blog. I'm curious how well that worked for you. It didn't drive as much growth for the brand.

Sam sticky Yaky, his own a condiment brand, and we basically show how we build a DDC brand, like, from from idea to, like, branding, to marketing, to and we just do it all transparently to, like, like, get people hooked on. Okay. Let me see how you guys actually build this thing. Now it's a lot of work, which is why I think ultimately we didn't do it. But how well did that work for you? Was that, like, just kind of like a good content thing, or was it like, no. That was, like, drove lot of growth for the brand and the blog. I'm curious how well that worked for you. It didn't drive as much growth for the brand.

18:44

But it did help out every little bit. Like, I did crazy experiments, so I spend like a hundred and something or two hundred and something thousand on clothes

But it did help out every little bit. Like, I did crazy experiments, so I spend like a hundred and something or two hundred and something thousand on clothes

18:51

and

and

18:52

wanted to see what that did in business meetings.

wanted to see what that did in business meetings.

18:55

Spent money applying first class everywhere. She wanted to see what that would do. But yeah, I tried a lot of different experiments and it was just for shits and giggles.

Spent money applying first class everywhere. She wanted to see what that would do. But yeah, I tried a lot of different experiments and it was just for shits and giggles.

19:05

And there was also a reason to justify

And there was also a reason to justify

19:07

some of my expenses.

some of my expenses.

19:10

And then, yeah, I wanna apply first class because I remember my first time playing first class, someone else paid for it. I'm like, wow. This is I've been missing out. This is a lot better than being crammed up and flying all the way to Europe from Los Angeles, you know, in economy.

And then, yeah, I wanna apply first class because I remember my first time playing first class, someone else paid for it. I'm like, wow. This is I've been missing out. This is a lot better than being crammed up and flying all the way to Europe from Los Angeles, you know, in economy.

19:26

And then I was like, man, let's do some experiments, and let's see if I can justify this expense. But, yeah,

And then I was like, man, let's do some experiments, and let's see if I can justify this expense. But, yeah,

19:32

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

19:33

And you just you did you say early on that you just gave heaton? So Did you invest in Heating Shaw's other company, Sean?

And you just you did you say early on that you just gave heaton? So Did you invest in Heating Shaw's other company, Sean?

19:41

Yeah. Yeah. So we're both Neil. We're both investors in Neera, which is heat heat is your cousin. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. So we're both Neil. We're both investors in Neera, which is heat heat is your cousin. Right?

19:47

No. Her brother-in-law. Brother-law. Yeah. Sorry. And heat is amazing. He's another he's a great blogger as well, and Sean and I both invested in his company called Nira, which is either gonna

No. Her brother-in-law. Brother-law. Yeah. Sorry. And heat is amazing. He's another he's a great blogger as well, and Sean and I both invested in his company called Nira, which is either gonna

19:58

be a dud or it's gonna be like the biggest company ever. I know the the if, like, it's like a company that's like they're gonna close like multi million dollar contracts, I would guess. That's it's like a big old business, potentially a big old business, but did you say that you gave him crazy egg?

be a dud or it's gonna be like the biggest company ever. I know the the if, like, it's like a company that's like they're gonna close like multi million dollar contracts, I would guess. That's it's like a big old business, potentially a big old business, but did you say that you gave him crazy egg?

20:15

So

So

20:16

with crazy, what ended up happening is is what I wanted to do is we were doing business forever together. And then eventually, I just said, hey, you can have the monthly distributions,

with crazy, what ended up happening is is what I wanted to do is we were doing business forever together. And then eventually, I just said, hey, you can have the monthly distributions,

20:28

and

and

20:29

I'm gonna go create another business.

I'm gonna go create another business.

20:32

Why would you give that? Why why?

Why would you give that? Why why?

20:36

He didn't ask for it nor did he care for it nor did he want it? You know, he's never been about money. Neither him or I have. And we're not rich. Yeah. I can't actually speak for him. I'm not rich. I've just done well enough and I don't spend as much. So it's like, don't really need the money. Does that make sense? Like, if you just don't spend money, you don't really need much cash out. Did you just send you drop two hundred thousand dollars on clothes? What do you mean you don't need money? Well, that was a experiment. Right? But

He didn't ask for it nor did he care for it nor did he want it? You know, he's never been about money. Neither him or I have. And we're not rich. Yeah. I can't actually speak for him. I'm not rich. I've just done well enough and I don't spend as much. So it's like, don't really need the money. Does that make sense? Like, if you just don't spend money, you don't really need much cash out. Did you just send you drop two hundred thousand dollars on clothes? What do you mean you don't need money? Well, that was a experiment. Right? But

21:03

but that's not my daily life. Like, I'm wearing a white t shirt with stains and, like, it spits up on.

but that's not my daily life. Like, I'm wearing a white t shirt with stains and, like, it spits up on.

21:09

They're probably, like, ten, twenty bucks. I don't know what the white t shirts cost, but they're not really white anymore.

They're probably, like, ten, twenty bucks. I don't know what the white t shirts cost, but they're not really white anymore.

21:14

I try not to

I try not to

21:16

do video recordings in front of white walls anymore. Because you can just tell the discoloration from it. Nonetheless,

do video recordings in front of white walls anymore. Because you can just tell the discoloration from it. Nonetheless,

21:23

So does Sam say you live in Brazil? Is that what you No. No. I have a a

So does Sam say you live in Brazil? Is that what you No. No. I have a a

21:28

division in Brazil. Like, we do marketing in Brazil for a Brazilian companies.

division in Brazil. Like, we do marketing in Brazil for a Brazilian companies.

21:32

And you live in Texas? Where do you where do you live?

And you live in Texas? Where do you where do you live?

21:35

Vegas. Vegas. Okay. Amazing. And, so

Vegas. Vegas. Okay. Amazing. And, so

21:39

Have you,

Have you,

21:40

is it easy for you to keep your burn rate down? Because, like, I I was telling Sam this. I spent, like, I don't know, twenty five thousand dollars a month now. Just like, And I I'm not I don't even feel like I'm Dude, I bet Sean, you might I think you might spend more than that now. If I bet you added up because I know what how you spend. I bet you it's more than twenty five. It might be. It might be a little more. But it's not more than thirty, I would say. I don't think it's more than thirty. So I but, like, it's

is it easy for you to keep your burn rate down? Because, like, I I was telling Sam this. I spent, like, I don't know, twenty five thousand dollars a month now. Just like, And I I'm not I don't even feel like I'm Dude, I bet Sean, you might I think you might spend more than that now. If I bet you added up because I know what how you spend. I bet you it's more than twenty five. It might be. It might be a little more. But it's not more than thirty, I would say. I don't think it's more than thirty. So I but, like, it's

22:03

Yeah. I got two little kids, but I got two little kids, but they're, like, babies. Like, like, you know, like,

Yeah. I got two little kids, but I got two little kids, but they're, like, babies. Like, like, you know, like,

22:08

they don't they don't need food. You know, so so, you know, there's diapers. Sure. But, like, it's not them. It's meat.

they don't they don't need food. You know, so so, you know, there's diapers. Sure. But, like, it's not them. It's meat.

22:15

So a steep burn rate. I would take thirty.

So a steep burn rate. I would take thirty.

22:18

You said it's a steep burn rate or it's a

You said it's a steep burn rate or it's a

22:21

Good burn rate. I would take it. I would trade Okay. Gotcha. So when you say you don't spend much, what what do you say is your monthly burn rate? Because I think for most people listening. Right? They're like, most people don't talk about how much they make or how much they spend. Alright. How much you make? Sometimes that's sensitive. Confirm that if I tell you how much I burn off. Well, but but Neil, you actually wrote this in a blog post. You said, you said, I spend this was I don't know if you're I actually I have no idea if you're single or if you have a family and you can I have a family if you my my burn rate right now? But you used to say in your blog post that you go fifteen thousand dollars a month is all I need. I'm happy. That was like ten years ago, I think. But,

Good burn rate. I would take it. I would trade Okay. Gotcha. So when you say you don't spend much, what what do you say is your monthly burn rate? Because I think for most people listening. Right? They're like, most people don't talk about how much they make or how much they spend. Alright. How much you make? Sometimes that's sensitive. Confirm that if I tell you how much I burn off. Well, but but Neil, you actually wrote this in a blog post. You said, you said, I spend this was I don't know if you're I actually I have no idea if you're single or if you have a family and you can I have a family if you my my burn rate right now? But you used to say in your blog post that you go fifteen thousand dollars a month is all I need. I'm happy. That was like ten years ago, I think. But,

22:55

that's but you used to say fifteen thousand.

that's but you used to say fifteen thousand.

22:58

Single in no kids is easy.

Single in no kids is easy.

23:00

Right now, if I had a guess on my burn rate, one twenty to one eighty a month. What? That's insane. So what is how does that break down? So What's the, like, what's the bulk of it? Where the so house probably is the biggest one?

Right now, if I had a guess on my burn rate, one twenty to one eighty a month. What? That's insane. So what is how does that break down? So What's the, like, what's the bulk of it? Where the so house probably is the biggest one?

23:13

No. I have no mortgage. Okay. Yep. So you're spending a hundred twenty to hundred eighty k without spending anything on your home?

No. I have no mortgage. Okay. Yep. So you're spending a hundred twenty to hundred eighty k without spending anything on your home?

23:21

Property tax.

Property tax.

23:22

Property tax

Property tax

23:23

for both my homes and HOA dues is probably close to two hundred a year.

for both my homes and HOA dues is probably close to two hundred a year.

23:29

Okay. Great.

Okay. Great.

23:31

So But I'm not allowed to listen up to anyone. So we've got twelve thousand of the way there. We're Alright. Yeah.

So But I'm not allowed to listen up to anyone. So we've got twelve thousand of the way there. We're Alright. Yeah.

23:37

Yeah. Yeah. So there's

Yeah. Yeah. So there's

23:40

Okay? Life insurance is twenty five grand a month.

Okay? Life insurance is twenty five grand a month.

23:43

What?

What?

23:44

My whole life policy has us twenty five to three hundred a year.

My whole life policy has us twenty five to three hundred a year.

23:48

No. No. No. Wait. What what what the hell is a twenty five thousand dollar a month life insurance policy? What can you explain that?

No. No. No. Wait. What what what the hell is a twenty five thousand dollar a month life insurance policy? What can you explain that?

23:55

This is just,

This is just,

23:57

benefit like if I die my wife and kids get money,

benefit like if I die my wife and kids get money,

24:00

like a life insurance policy.

like a life insurance policy.

24:02

Yeah. Well, I get that. But is that normal? I've never heard, like, either I'm dumb or you're dumb. One of who's dumb? Here. Am I dumb? Because I've never heard of anybody spending that much on their life it's it's like an investment account. It builds over time.

Yeah. Well, I get that. But is that normal? I've never heard, like, either I'm dumb or you're dumb. One of who's dumb? Here. Am I dumb? Because I've never heard of anybody spending that much on their life it's it's like an investment account. It builds over time.

24:15

So it's not like it goes away. Right? Most life insurance policies are for call it ten years and then you buy another one. Mine just keep going and you could borrow against the just think of it as, like, a investment vehicle. So that's twenty five a month. Okay. I I see. Yes. Now I understand.

So it's not like it goes away. Right? Most life insurance policies are for call it ten years and then you buy another one. Mine just keep going and you could borrow against the just think of it as, like, a investment vehicle. So that's twenty five a month. Okay. I I see. Yes. Now I understand.

24:30

Staff,

Staff,

24:32

cleaners,

cleaners,

24:33

nannies, driver. We full time driver. I think that ends up being around fifty seven a month.

nannies, driver. We full time driver. I think that ends up being around fifty seven a month.

24:40

Fifty seven hundred fifty seven thousand.

Fifty seven hundred fifty seven thousand.

24:42

Thousand?

Thousand?

24:45

You know, a driver? Uber.

You know, a driver? Uber.

24:48

Why why I think it's more affordable.

Why why I think it's more affordable.

24:51

I optimized for convenience. In Vegas,

I optimized for convenience. In Vegas,

24:54

I go through this company, they charge a hefty premium.

I go through this company, they charge a hefty premium.

24:58

I go through this company and I have decals on my car. So if I do a meeting in front of a casino,

I go through this company and I have decals on my car. So if I do a meeting in front of a casino,

25:04

the car can just stay in front of the casino and doesn't have to move. If I'm going to the airport, you can straight up pull up into the plane or whatever you wanna do, and you don't have to go through terminals or anything like that. So makes like So part of your strategy as I'm picking this up is that you

the car can just stay in front of the casino and doesn't have to move. If I'm going to the airport, you can straight up pull up into the plane or whatever you wanna do, and you don't have to go through terminals or anything like that. So makes like So part of your strategy as I'm picking this up is that you

25:19

live the best lifestyle

live the best lifestyle

25:21

you want

you want

25:22

and it's all expensive the way you do it.

and it's all expensive the way you do it.

25:27

I don't know if it's all expensive. Is that what you meant with the decal? Like, it's a company. It's, like, marketing. It's like a, like, a marketing vehicle for you.

I don't know if it's all expensive. Is that what you meant with the decal? Like, it's a company. It's, like, marketing. It's like a, like, a marketing vehicle for you.

25:35

So there there's a limo company. If I have their difficult

So there there's a limo company. If I have their difficult

25:38

arm and just pay them,

arm and just pay them,

25:40

I can end up parking wherever I want in theory. Not literally wherever I want, but in most cases, I can park wherever I want and the car can just sit there and wait for Alright. So what else? Anything else? You fly private? He's like, I've I buy a daily Disneyland fast pass just in case I decide to go that day.

I can end up parking wherever I want in theory. Not literally wherever I want, but in most cases, I can park wherever I want and the car can just sit there and wait for Alright. So what else? Anything else? You fly private? He's like, I've I buy a daily Disneyland fast pass just in case I decide to go that day.

25:56

Yeah.

Yeah.

25:58

I applied for convenience of time.

I applied for convenience of time.

26:01

What's been the what's been the number one, like, kind of like where you feel like most people don't most people think this is too expensive and not worth it. But for me, I get way more value. I'll give you an example in my life. Right? So I thought I had burn rate till we started talking. So this is great. I'm feeling so much better about myself. But the one thing I did was I I hired a private chef. So I was like, alright.

What's been the what's been the number one, like, kind of like where you feel like most people don't most people think this is too expensive and not worth it. But for me, I get way more value. I'll give you an example in my life. Right? So I thought I had burn rate till we started talking. So this is great. I'm feeling so much better about myself. But the one thing I did was I I hired a private chef. So I was like, alright.

26:21

That I think I I always thought that's the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

That I think I I always thought that's the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

26:25

And I I thought, wow, that's cool because you eat healthy and it tastes great. You'd fuss with time and, you know, cooking and dishes and groceries and all that stuff. And so to me, it's like a no brainer. I'm like, dude, anybody with any kind of money, you should be, like, that should be one of the, like, fancy car later.

And I I thought, wow, that's cool because you eat healthy and it tastes great. You'd fuss with time and, you know, cooking and dishes and groceries and all that stuff. And so to me, it's like a no brainer. I'm like, dude, anybody with any kind of money, you should be, like, that should be one of the, like, fancy car later.

26:39

Private chef now. Like, because I'm like, to me, the value, the reward way outweigh the cost. I think most people don't typically make that trade. Sounds like you've experimented with many ways of spending money. What has been a good reward

Private chef now. Like, because I'm like, to me, the value, the reward way outweigh the cost. I think most people don't typically make that trade. Sounds like you've experimented with many ways of spending money. What has been a good reward

26:50

for for cost,

for for cost,

26:52

trade that you're like, this one is is great that most people don't do?

trade that you're like, this one is is great that most people don't do?

26:59

I I don't know. I'm in I'm in a bubble because I have a lot of friends who are like me, sadly,

I I don't know. I'm in I'm in a bubble because I have a lot of friends who are like me, sadly,

27:04

in which we spend a lot. We don't know what's reality. I know that sounds bad to say, but it's true. Right?

in which we spend a lot. We don't know what's reality. I know that sounds bad to say, but it's true. Right?

27:10

Hook is not bad.

Hook is not bad.

27:13

Housekeepers invest. You don't have to do your own dishes in stuff. Although, funny enough, I enjoyed doing that and ironing because it's, it's kinda like meditative for me. It's relaxing. I don't know why watching TV and ironing.

Housekeepers invest. You don't have to do your own dishes in stuff. Although, funny enough, I enjoyed doing that and ironing because it's, it's kinda like meditative for me. It's relaxing. I don't know why watching TV and ironing.

27:24

Nanny's help so you get the freedom and you can watch your kids when you want to, but you can also do meetings and stuff like that.

Nanny's help so you get the freedom and you can watch your kids when you want to, but you can also do meetings and stuff like that.

27:34

Probably the the best expense I ever

Probably the the best expense I ever

27:37

spend on is private planes,

spend on is private planes,

27:39

not because I like it. It's, I don't mind playing commercial.

not because I like it. It's, I don't mind playing commercial.

27:43

Not really any difference for me, but it helps me optimize for times that way I can see my kids more.

Not really any difference for me, but it helps me optimize for times that way I can see my kids more.

27:48

That does sometimes do a lot of meetings for work and just going and then coming back the same day, just really in and out really quickly. Like, sometimes I'll be home quick enough, like, go from Vegas to Utah for a conference, speak, come back, and I'll be home quick enough to pick up my kid from school. And, like, to me, it's really well valuable. That's worth the money. Are you saving any money then? Or are are you just taking a draw from the agency in order to, of, provide, pay for this, or are you able to expense a lot of it to the agency? How's that work? I don't need to spend any of it to my companies.

That does sometimes do a lot of meetings for work and just going and then coming back the same day, just really in and out really quickly. Like, sometimes I'll be home quick enough, like, go from Vegas to Utah for a conference, speak, come back, and I'll be home quick enough to pick up my kid from school. And, like, to me, it's really well valuable. That's worth the money. Are you saving any money then? Or are are you just taking a draw from the agency in order to, of, provide, pay for this, or are you able to expense a lot of it to the agency? How's that work? I don't need to spend any of it to my companies.

28:19

As person pay.

As person pay.

28:20

So you're just the agency is just that profitable of a business. It's doing that well.

So you're just the agency is just that profitable of a business. It's doing that well.

28:26

Or investments

Or investments

28:27

or savings.

or savings.

28:28

I've done well enough in life where I'm okay. Why did you do an agency? So me and Sam always talk about, like,

I've done well enough in life where I'm okay. Why did you do an agency? So me and Sam always talk about, like,

28:34

We have many models on this podcast.

We have many models on this podcast.

28:38

For example,

For example,

28:39

we don't do public math.

we don't do public math.

28:41

For example,

For example,

28:42

you don't say you're rich. You say you're post economic.

you don't say you're rich. You say you're post economic.

28:44

These are things we've picked up from, from guests along the way. And one of the one of the model one of the models that we say

These are things we've picked up from, from guests along the way. And one of the one of the model one of the models that we say

28:49

is,

is,

28:51

you know, agencies suck.

you know, agencies suck.

28:53

And, it's like and and and the reason we say is not because

And, it's like and and and the reason we say is not because

28:57

they,

they,

28:58

like, they do well. That's not that they suck. It's like they suck as a business choice. Like, If I could I have always thought if I could choose between software or an agency and choose software because it's like, oh, it's not a services business. It's gonna work while I sleep, and they could scale up, and I don't have to open up offices in Poland and Brazil and all these other places,

like, they do well. That's not that they suck. It's like they suck as a business choice. Like, If I could I have always thought if I could choose between software or an agency and choose software because it's like, oh, it's not a services business. It's gonna work while I sleep, and they could scale up, and I don't have to open up offices in Poland and Brazil and all these other places,

29:16

but you chose that. You did software and you chose agency now.

but you chose that. You did software and you chose agency now.

29:20

Why'd you make that choice? And what's great about agencies that I am

Why'd you make that choice? And what's great about agencies that I am

29:24

kind of like not giving enough credit for?

kind of like not giving enough credit for?

29:28

So you you're looking at business as in software is more scalable, it's more desirable by public markets, EX HubSpot versus

So you you're looking at business as in software is more scalable, it's more desirable by public markets, EX HubSpot versus

29:36

accenture.

accenture.

29:37

Accenture has

Accenture has

29:38

way worse multiples

way worse multiples

29:40

than HubSpot Accenture is a bigger company from a revenue EBITDA standpoint,

than HubSpot Accenture is a bigger company from a revenue EBITDA standpoint,

29:44

but now Take a different approach. Okay. Help Watson. Publicly traded companies. You guys are both HubSpot employees. I'm assuming still. Is that correct?

but now Take a different approach. Okay. Help Watson. Publicly traded companies. You guys are both HubSpot employees. I'm assuming still. Is that correct?

29:53

Kinda.

Kinda.

29:54

Sure. Well, whatever your guys' deal is. Right? But you guys are pretty much at HubSpot.

Sure. Well, whatever your guys' deal is. Right? But you guys are pretty much at HubSpot.

29:58

Now imagine creating a business and you don't plan on going public You don't care for the limelight. You don't care for any of that. In business,

Now imagine creating a business and you don't plan on going public You don't care for the limelight. You don't care for any of that. In business,

30:06

what's a successful business?

what's a successful business?

30:08

Good revenue growth. And good revenue and profitability.

Good revenue growth. And good revenue and profitability.

30:12

Right? All that really matters at the end of the day whether you grow or not grow is how profitable are you guys agree with that statement? Assuming you're doing something that's ethical and you're not selling drugs. No. I wouldn't agree with that. I would say there's a third thing, which is, like, is this enjoyable and like do I like my day to day? And with the more people you have,

Right? All that really matters at the end of the day whether you grow or not grow is how profitable are you guys agree with that statement? Assuming you're doing something that's ethical and you're not selling drugs. No. I wouldn't agree with that. I would say there's a third thing, which is, like, is this enjoyable and like do I like my day to day? And with the more people you have,

30:32

most people would say that's just a little bit more headache,

most people would say that's just a little bit more headache,

30:36

than

than

30:36

then But the that's not software or consulting. Anytime you build a big company, you tend to have a large amount of people, whether it's hub spot or whether it's Accenture. Everyone has one. Yeah. But you can have you can probably have a much higher revenue per employee with software.

then But the that's not software or consulting. Anytime you build a big company, you tend to have a large amount of people, whether it's hub spot or whether it's Accenture. Everyone has one. Yeah. But you can have you can probably have a much higher revenue per employee with software.

30:52

Versus, let's say you own a massive landscaping business, you're gonna have to have tens of thousands of people.

Versus, let's say you own a massive landscaping business, you're gonna have to have tens of thousands of people.

30:57

Oh, but what's the difference from dealing with? How many people does Huxville have, like, six thousand don't know. Five thousand, six thousand is probably a lot. I'm guessing on the number. But what's the difference of dealing with five thousand or six thousand people and twenty thousand people? There's point where it doesn't matter and it's a lot of people either way. Like, it's not like you're at fifty people. You still have thousands of employees to deal with and you need managers and layers and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But you're hiring a some

Oh, but what's the difference from dealing with? How many people does Huxville have, like, six thousand don't know. Five thousand, six thousand is probably a lot. I'm guessing on the number. But what's the difference of dealing with five thousand or six thousand people and twenty thousand people? There's point where it doesn't matter and it's a lot of people either way. Like, it's not like you're at fifty people. You still have thousands of employees to deal with and you need managers and layers and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. But you're hiring a some

31:22

good or bad. You're hiring a different type of person. So for example,

good or bad. You're hiring a different type of person. So for example,

31:25

if you're Vayner media, they're based in New York, They can probably only afford to pay some of their lower level employees seventy or eighty thousand dollars a year. And so you just have to get a ton of people like that and have to have higher churn versus say a bigger company, we're able to pay a significantly higher salary because the revenue per employee is is much higher. So

if you're Vayner media, they're based in New York, They can probably only afford to pay some of their lower level employees seventy or eighty thousand dollars a year. And so you just have to get a ton of people like that and have to have higher churn versus say a bigger company, we're able to pay a significantly higher salary because the revenue per employee is is much higher. So

31:45

Perhaps there's a a slightly different day to day with because of that. Not necessarily.

Perhaps there's a a slightly different day to day with because of that. Not necessarily.

31:50

Let's say you're a vayner media, he could be doing it to optimize for profit. Worms if I told you his LTV was six, seven, eight years.

Let's say you're a vayner media, he could be doing it to optimize for profit. Worms if I told you his LTV was six, seven, eight years.

31:58

Right? And you have to have as a pump. Then at that point, you can still hire high quality people and pay my arm and a leg.

Right? And you have to have as a pump. Then at that point, you can still hire high quality people and pay my arm and a leg.

32:05

Okay. You got what I mean. Right? Like, you look at Accenture.

Okay. You got what I mean. Right? Like, you look at Accenture.

32:07

They're charging accounts so much money and their contracts are long, and I don't know what Vayner media's LTV is. But there's a lot of consulting companies that have LTVs of six, seven years for clients.

They're charging accounts so much money and their contracts are long, and I don't know what Vayner media's LTV is. But there's a lot of consulting companies that have LTVs of six, seven years for clients.

32:18

And their clients are spending, you know, a hub spot. Yes. There's more revenue per you can say potentially in software you can get to more revenue per employee, but I know consulting companies that only take on contracts that are like five, six million dollars and upwards.

And their clients are spending, you know, a hub spot. Yes. There's more revenue per you can say potentially in software you can get to more revenue per employee, but I know consulting companies that only take on contracts that are like five, six million dollars and upwards.

32:32

So you have high margins, and you can have a high revenue per employee. But

So you have high margins, and you can have a high revenue per employee. But

32:38

either way, no matter what, as you build a big business, you're going to need more people, and it's a headache to manage. Whether you pay them seventy thousand or while you pay them a hundred and fifty thousand, it's still more of a headache. And the notion that if you hire someone for a hundred and fifty thousand, I'm not saying you're saying this, it doesn't necessarily mean they're a better employee. Right? And No. It just means different types of headaches.

either way, no matter what, as you build a big business, you're going to need more people, and it's a headache to manage. Whether you pay them seventy thousand or while you pay them a hundred and fifty thousand, it's still more of a headache. And the notion that if you hire someone for a hundred and fifty thousand, I'm not saying you're saying this, it doesn't necessarily mean they're a better employee. Right? And No. It just means different types of headaches.

32:59

Correct. Exactly. Engineers for example are very expensive in this economy. Right? So

Correct. Exactly. Engineers for example are very expensive in this economy. Right? So

33:04

the point I'm getting at is a consulting company. I had the demand for it. A lot of people wanted to pay me for marketing,

the point I'm getting at is a consulting company. I had the demand for it. A lot of people wanted to pay me for marketing,

33:11

and there was just so much demand. It would have been silly not to do. If I'm not trying to go public or I'm not trying to sell,

and there was just so much demand. It would have been silly not to do. If I'm not trying to go public or I'm not trying to sell,

33:17

money's money. Green is green. As long as you're happy doing what you're doing,

money's money. Green is green. As long as you're happy doing what you're doing,

33:21

take the cash. Will you ever sell the company?

take the cash. Will you ever sell the company?

33:24

I wanna say I would never sell the company, but I don't care to ever sell the company because I love what I'm doing. We also have good grow too. Right? Like, I don't know what will grow this year,

I wanna say I would never sell the company, but I don't care to ever sell the company because I love what I'm doing. We also have good grow too. Right? Like, I don't know what will grow this year,

33:34

sixty something percent, which is a bad,

sixty something percent, which is a bad,

33:37

you know, with the market going up and down and fluctuating sixty something percent is my guess. At our size is decent. Yeah. The part I was actually talking about was a little bit more, like, I think you're you're totally right that, like, If you're gonna win big, you're gonna end up with a bunch of employees. And, like, you know, it might look like a hundred fifty. It might look like a thousand. It might look like ten thousand, but, like, you know, in either case, you're gonna have nigeria work and headaches and it's just different types.

you know, with the market going up and down and fluctuating sixty something percent is my guess. At our size is decent. Yeah. The part I was actually talking about was a little bit more, like, I think you're you're totally right that, like, If you're gonna win big, you're gonna end up with a bunch of employees. And, like, you know, it might look like a hundred fifty. It might look like a thousand. It might look like ten thousand, but, like, you know, in either case, you're gonna have nigeria work and headaches and it's just different types.

34:00

The part I was really talking about was like, you know, I've now built, let's say, a media company content, and then it's like,

The part I was really talking about was like, you know, I've now built, let's say, a media company content, and then it's like,

34:08

done educational stuff, so courses, which are, like, you know, different thing. And then there's, like, a built software company. And, you know, we ended up selling that one. And then it's, like, And then there's,

done educational stuff, so courses, which are, like, you know, different thing. And then there's, like, a built software company. And, you know, we ended up selling that one. And then it's, like, And then there's,

34:18

services, which is the client services, like, with, like, consulting or agency model.

services, which is the client services, like, with, like, consulting or agency model.

34:22

And what I hate what I what I love about content media is it's actually pretty fun to create, and it's cool because a lot of people consume it. So they kinda, you know, you get that, like, hit.

And what I hate what I what I love about content media is it's actually pretty fun to create, and it's cool because a lot of people consume it. So they kinda, you know, you get that, like, hit.

34:32

But you gotta, like, you gotta bake the cake every day. Right? So, like, you know, the hustle or, like, the milk road or this podcast. Like, we have to come on and create the content again, you know, for the most part. We we're not doing, like, super long evergreen stuff

But you gotta, like, you gotta bake the cake every day. Right? So, like, you know, the hustle or, like, the milk road or this podcast. Like, we have to come on and create the content again, you know, for the most part. We we're not doing, like, super long evergreen stuff

34:45

so, you know, like, with the hustles of daily newsletter, milk roads, a daily newsletter, it's we gotta bake that cake every day. Whereas software, it was like, we built one product. And, yes, we might we will improve it over the course of a year, you know, every year, we're gonna improve it. But, like, fundamentally,

so, you know, like, with the hustles of daily newsletter, milk roads, a daily newsletter, it's we gotta bake that cake every day. Whereas software, it was like, we built one product. And, yes, we might we will improve it over the course of a year, you know, every year, we're gonna improve it. But, like, fundamentally,

35:01

We didn't have to, like, recreate the product, come up with a new viral story or a new great content segment,

We didn't have to, like, recreate the product, come up with a new viral story or a new great content segment,

35:06

that would, like, require, like, a new genius. With software's, like, you come up with one genius moment, and then you sort of refine it, make it work better over time and get rid of bugs and things like that. So I preferred that part of software, which was like making a product rather than making kind of like a disposable

that would, like, require, like, a new genius. With software's, like, you come up with one genius moment, and then you sort of refine it, make it work better over time and get rid of bugs and things like that. So I preferred that part of software, which was like making a product rather than making kind of like a disposable

35:20

you know, consumable piece of content or, like, I have an e commerce company. And, like, to pain in the ass to have supply physical products that are supply chain,

you know, consumable piece of content or, like, I have an e commerce company. And, like, to pain in the ass to have supply physical products that are supply chain,

35:28

constrained. And, like, we have a warehouse. We got warehouse problems with our e commerce business. And so I'm like, man, digital is sweet compared to e commerce, but e commerce profitable. It kicks off a bunch of profits. That's nice. So every business has these pros and cons. I always thought agency was like,

constrained. And, like, we have a warehouse. We got warehouse problems with our e commerce business. And so I'm like, man, digital is sweet compared to e commerce, but e commerce profitable. It kicks off a bunch of profits. That's nice. So every business has these pros and cons. I always thought agency was like,

35:44

The part I always thought was a pain in the ass was like the client services. You are reinventing the next campaign and the next winning marketing, you know, formula for them. And you have to keep clients happy all the time and clients are sort of, like, never satisfied

The part I always thought was a pain in the ass was like the client services. You are reinventing the next campaign and the next winning marketing, you know, formula for them. And you have to keep clients happy all the time and clients are sort of, like, never satisfied

35:56

in a way that, like,

in a way that, like,

35:57

if software is, like, you can have nameless, faceless customers that, like, yeah, some percentage of them will write into your help desk that's in the Philippines or whatever. But, like, you're not having to, like, you know, send account reports to your, you know, your your big client to keep them happy.

if software is, like, you can have nameless, faceless customers that, like, yeah, some percentage of them will write into your help desk that's in the Philippines or whatever. But, like, you're not having to, like, you know, send account reports to your, you know, your your big client to keep them happy.

36:12

Yeah. But you everyone has their own problems. In software, a lot of people have churn to this issue and they can't figure it out. Or they have competitors that come into the market place and just undercut them on pricing for the same features because it's cheaper and cheaper to build software these days. Right? So they all have their own problem. To me, I look at it as If you can find the right people, so every time I start a company, I find in people to put in place that have already done it multiple times before because your risk of failure are lower.

Yeah. But you everyone has their own problems. In software, a lot of people have churn to this issue and they can't figure it out. Or they have competitors that come into the market place and just undercut them on pricing for the same features because it's cheaper and cheaper to build software these days. Right? So they all have their own problem. To me, I look at it as If you can find the right people, so every time I start a company, I find in people to put in place that have already done it multiple times before because your risk of failure are lower.

36:37

And they already know everything to do. So I don't have to deal with client relationships. I don't have to deal with customer service or anything like that. I get to do what I enjoy doing. Which is go and create content, be the face, etcetera.

And they already know everything to do. So I don't have to deal with client relationships. I don't have to deal with customer service or anything like that. I get to do what I enjoy doing. Which is go and create content, be the face, etcetera.

36:49

And, my wife enjoys what she gets to do. Right? She gets to donate the money, although don't really consider it as donations. We look at it as investing. We're investing in people, although we really don't ever collect any money back. It's more so you're investing into making the world a better place or people's lives a better place or whatever it may be.

And, my wife enjoys what she gets to do. Right? She gets to donate the money, although don't really consider it as donations. We look at it as investing. We're investing in people, although we really don't ever collect any money back. It's more so you're investing into making the world a better place or people's lives a better place or whatever it may be.

37:07

What's a hoo hoover

What's a hoo hoover

37:09

Who were your first three clients

Who were your first three clients

37:12

at this at this agent? Because you I don't know. They were small companies.

at this at this agent? Because you I don't know. They were small companies.

37:18

And right now, who's an example client?

And right now, who's an example client?

37:22

Like

Like

37:24

a Fortune one hundred

a Fortune one hundred

37:25

software company.

software company.

37:27

Like, that is a typical company. A think of any big large corporation in b to b. That's a great example of one of our customers or even b to c. Actually think of any Fortune five hundred company. That's a prime example of a customer.

Like, that is a typical company. A think of any big large corporation in b to b. That's a great example of one of our customers or even b to c. Actually think of any Fortune five hundred company. That's a prime example of a customer.

37:39

What's a and who's the CEO of your agency? Are you?

What's a and who's the CEO of your agency? Are you?

37:43

No. I'm never the CEO. I'm a terrible manager. I'm one of the worst managers ever.

No. I'm never the CEO. I'm a terrible manager. I'm one of the worst managers ever.

37:48

His name is Mike Gullkson. He was this CEO. Oh, no. He was the president of Iprospect,

His name is Mike Gullkson. He was this CEO. Oh, no. He was the president of Iprospect,

37:54

which is an ad agency owned by,

which is an ad agency owned by,

37:57

Dentsu.

Dentsu.

37:58

I believe in I prospect maybe they had four or five thousand people is my guess.

I believe in I prospect maybe they had four or five thousand people is my guess.

38:03

And what when you how early into the business did you have a a hired CEO or hired leader

And what when you how early into the business did you have a a hired CEO or hired leader

38:10

Day one. I won't start a business without a CEO from day one. And what did you pay them in the first year?

Day one. I won't start a business without a CEO from day one. And what did you pay them in the first year?

38:16

First year is my co founder for, like, a hundred grand.

First year is my co founder for, like, a hundred grand.

38:20

And that's because you basically went and drummed up a hundred grand worth of business. And you're like, hey, Mike, I gotta I gotta this client said to give a hundred grand. Do you wanna run this thing for me and and help it get deployed?

And that's because you basically went and drummed up a hundred grand worth of business. And you're like, hey, Mike, I gotta I gotta this client said to give a hundred grand. Do you wanna run this thing for me and and help it get deployed?

38:32

No.

No.

38:33

Our business is gonna start off that way. I probably put in total of five million bucks into the business of my own money. So it was bootstrap, but not really bootstrap, if that makes sense. Kind of cheating.

Our business is gonna start off that way. I probably put in total of five million bucks into the business of my own money. So it was bootstrap, but not really bootstrap, if that makes sense. Kind of cheating.

38:43

And it gets easier and easier as your entrepreneur. Right? The more the more success as you have, and I'm not saying I'm successful by any means. The more capital you have to deploy into the next thing so reduces chances of,

And it gets easier and easier as your entrepreneur. Right? The more the more success as you have, and I'm not saying I'm successful by any means. The more capital you have to deploy into the next thing so reduces chances of,

38:55

failure. And when it's your own money, this is just my

failure. And when it's your own money, this is just my

38:59

thesis, and I could be wrong on this. I have no data points. When it's your own money, you're much more careful than when you raise, like, fifteen, twenty, thirty million dollars of venture apple. Right? You really look at every single dollar.

thesis, and I could be wrong on this. I have no data points. When it's your own money, you're much more careful than when you raise, like, fifteen, twenty, thirty million dollars of venture apple. Right? You really look at every single dollar.

39:10

But Mike was the CEO from day one. He a great operator has no agency experience. Eventually, we got in a president, and then eventually from there, we got in a CEO.

But Mike was the CEO from day one. He a great operator has no agency experience. Eventually, we got in a president, and then eventually from there, we got in a CEO.

39:22

And have you guys crossed a hundred million in revenue yet?

And have you guys crossed a hundred million in revenue yet?

39:26

Yeah. We do nine figures.

Yeah. We do nine figures.

39:28

That's crazy, man. So, well, I mean, that's just pretty wild that you're able to, like, parlay

That's crazy, man. So, well, I mean, that's just pretty wild that you're able to, like, parlay

39:34

this blog. That was our all always kind of a juggernaut, but this blog into a

this blog. That was our all always kind of a juggernaut, but this blog into a

39:40

nine figure a year business. I mean, that's amazing.

nine figure a year business. I mean, that's amazing.

39:43

Yeah. This is it's been a good run. I hope it I'm knocking on wood although you probably can't hear because of Chris, but,

Yeah. This is it's been a good run. I hope it I'm knocking on wood although you probably can't hear because of Chris, but,

39:51

I hope it keeps going. And more so, we're just having fun Like, for me, what I enjoy doing is building a business.

I hope it keeps going. And more so, we're just having fun Like, for me, what I enjoy doing is building a business.

39:58

I know I have a expensive lifestyle. I generally don't do stuff for the money. Like, I overpay, like, how staff, like, nannies and stuff like that. When I say overpay, I drastically overpay, not about, like, ten, twenty, thirty, forty percent. Like, I really mean drastically overpay. Because I look at people, I'm like, if you're cleaning a house, how are you gonna live on this? Like, I'll give someone six figures to do that. I know that sounds kinda crazy or stupid. But, like, I'm not giving my kids money. So might as well take care of other people in this world who need it more than,

I know I have a expensive lifestyle. I generally don't do stuff for the money. Like, I overpay, like, how staff, like, nannies and stuff like that. When I say overpay, I drastically overpay, not about, like, ten, twenty, thirty, forty percent. Like, I really mean drastically overpay. Because I look at people, I'm like, if you're cleaning a house, how are you gonna live on this? Like, I'll give someone six figures to do that. I know that sounds kinda crazy or stupid. But, like, I'm not giving my kids money. So might as well take care of other people in this world who need it more than,

40:28

we do. Did you say that you're not giving kids money?

we do. Did you say that you're not giving kids money?

40:31

Yeah. I'm not gonna give Mike his money. Nothing. Leave leave nothing.

Yeah. I'm not gonna give Mike his money. Nothing. Leave leave nothing.

40:36

We have a trust set up. What they'll get maximum is, like, if they're on the scree, and they can't provide, and they're gonna be suffering.

We have a trust set up. What they'll get maximum is, like, if they're on the scree, and they can't provide, and they're gonna be suffering.

40:43

Like, I will help pay their bills,

Like, I will help pay their bills,

40:46

or put them in a normal home. Or, like, if my kid's like, I wanna be a doctor and I wanna go spend all my time in Africa helping other people out, and I won't get paid for this. And I need, you know,

or put them in a normal home. Or, like, if my kid's like, I wanna be a doctor and I wanna go spend all my time in Africa helping other people out, and I won't get paid for this. And I need, you know,

40:56

x five thousand dollars a month to live or ten thousand. So I can just go volunteer all my time. I'd be like sounds good. I'll pay for that. But, like, I won't give them money for the sake of it. Like, if they're like, I wanna go travel, to see Italy or I wanna

x five thousand dollars a month to live or ten thousand. So I can just go volunteer all my time. I'd be like sounds good. I'll pay for that. But, like, I won't give them money for the sake of it. Like, if they're like, I wanna go travel, to see Italy or I wanna

41:07

a Honda Accord and then, like, oh, buy your own Honda Accord. Go travel on your own with your own dime. Like,

a Honda Accord and then, like, oh, buy your own Honda Accord. Go travel on your own with your own dime. Like,

41:13

You know, I don't believe in just giving people money because I think there's other people that need it more than we do.

You know, I don't believe in just giving people money because I think there's other people that need it more than we do.

41:19

Sean, are you gonna give your kids money?

Sean, are you gonna give your kids money?

41:22

I haven't really thought about it. Like, my oldest is two. So I think I got some time to figure that out, but

I haven't really thought about it. Like, my oldest is two. So I think I got some time to figure that out, but

41:27

I

I

41:28

I lean more to so I've kinda heard both arguments like,

I lean more to so I've kinda heard both arguments like,

41:32

I know somebody who they if some people are like, you know, you know, I do there's some people that I I'm definitely not in the camp of I do this for my kids. I wanna leave my kids with a whole bunch. So I'm like, that may be the worst thing you could do for them.

I know somebody who they if some people are like, you know, you know, I do there's some people that I I'm definitely not in the camp of I do this for my kids. I wanna leave my kids with a whole bunch. So I'm like, that may be the worst thing you could do for them.

41:44

Not because it means that they're ruined, but like I have drug addicts.

Not because it means that they're ruined, but like I have drug addicts.

41:48

Yeah. You take away, you know, agency in a way. Right? Like, you you want people to,

Yeah. You take away, you know, agency in a way. Right? Like, you you want people to,

41:53

like, it's it's not that it's good or bad. It's actually just It's just way lower on the totem pole of priorities. It's like, I just don't even focus on that. It's like, if I'm gonna leave them something, it's gonna be a certain set of character character traits and skills. And, like, mentality. That's what I'm trying to leave. Money is, like, I don't know, fifteenth on the list of, like, I don't know. We haven't even gotten to think about that yet. But I've thought a lot about what are the character traits and mentality and, like, mindset and skills that I think I can help build. And, like, that's the focus. That's the one that matters. That's the That's the gift. If, whatever else comes from beyond that, I don't know. We can figure out, like, the foot it's like the footnotes.

like, it's it's not that it's good or bad. It's actually just It's just way lower on the totem pole of priorities. It's like, I just don't even focus on that. It's like, if I'm gonna leave them something, it's gonna be a certain set of character character traits and skills. And, like, mentality. That's what I'm trying to leave. Money is, like, I don't know, fifteenth on the list of, like, I don't know. We haven't even gotten to think about that yet. But I've thought a lot about what are the character traits and mentality and, like, mindset and skills that I think I can help build. And, like, that's the focus. That's the one that matters. That's the That's the gift. If, whatever else comes from beyond that, I don't know. We can figure out, like, the foot it's like the footnotes.

42:27

So, like,

So, like,

42:28

we're very similar. Mike, I have a two year old and a less than one year old. Right? Yep. And I look at it as you want them to be, productive units of society.

we're very similar. Mike, I have a two year old and a less than one year old. Right? Yep. And I look at it as you want them to be, productive units of society.

42:38

Right? You want them to be ambitious, hungry,

Right? You want them to be ambitious, hungry,

42:40

caring, thoughtful, happy, like, whatever it is. There's a lot of characteristics that you may want children to be. But I look at it as like they don't need money, even like with my wife and I, we go over our expenses.

caring, thoughtful, happy, like, whatever it is. There's a lot of characteristics that you may want children to be. But I look at it as like they don't need money, even like with my wife and I, we go over our expenses.

42:51

And we look at what we spend on travel.

And we look at what we spend on travel.

42:54

And we do some of this because it's easier, but, like, my wife and I, you're actually considering cutting out all private and just going commercial now. The main reason our expenses are high is due to COVID. So if it wasn't for COVID, I would just be going in a normal airport. I didn't know how COVID was gonna impact with young kids could afford it. I was just like, yeah, just start flying private and we haven't gone back to commercial yet, but we're thinking about going back. Because, like, my wife and I look at the money is like, yeah, we spend all this money on travel and airfare and hotels, if we donated the money, people would have a better life if we really need it that much. What do you do when you donate that, like, What's a good way to donate in your opinion? So there's, like,

And we do some of this because it's easier, but, like, my wife and I, you're actually considering cutting out all private and just going commercial now. The main reason our expenses are high is due to COVID. So if it wasn't for COVID, I would just be going in a normal airport. I didn't know how COVID was gonna impact with young kids could afford it. I was just like, yeah, just start flying private and we haven't gone back to commercial yet, but we're thinking about going back. Because, like, my wife and I look at the money is like, yeah, we spend all this money on travel and airfare and hotels, if we donated the money, people would have a better life if we really need it that much. What do you do when you donate that, like, What's a good way to donate in your opinion? So there's, like,

43:32

you know, ranging from not donating to donating to one thing, to donate to a bunch of things, to, like, getting involved or seeing the impact or, like, you know, I know people who if they donate to Africa, they'll actually need their family. We'll take a trip every year so that they're more connected to the people and they actually see the impact, and they take their kids with them so that they see the impact. Like,

you know, ranging from not donating to donating to one thing, to donate to a bunch of things, to, like, getting involved or seeing the impact or, like, you know, I know people who if they donate to Africa, they'll actually need their family. We'll take a trip every year so that they're more connected to the people and they actually see the impact, and they take their kids with them so that they see the impact. Like,

43:50

what have you found that's a good way to give?

what have you found that's a good way to give?

43:53

So we we have a balance. It's my wife and I team up.

So we we have a balance. It's my wife and I team up.

43:56

This is gonna sound bad, but I don't like volunteering my time. My wife loves volunteering her I think it's very inefficient for me to volunteer my time. I should make the money,

This is gonna sound bad, but I don't like volunteering my time. My wife loves volunteering her I think it's very inefficient for me to volunteer my time. I should make the money,

44:05

versus volunteering my time because the money or the hours spent If we donated the money, it would have a much bigger impact to the cause than if I actually spent my time. I don't think that's what's bad.

versus volunteering my time because the money or the hours spent If we donated the money, it would have a much bigger impact to the cause than if I actually spent my time. I don't think that's what's bad.

44:15

Yeah. And my wife loves spending the time. And, like, from going to soup kitchens or whatever it may be. So she picks the causes. We have a few thesises.

Yeah. And my wife loves spending the time. And, like, from going to soup kitchens or whatever it may be. So she picks the causes. We have a few thesises.

44:25

So, like, one thesis is we are not really thesis, but rules. One rule is is we don't like money going to organizations that tons of high overhead. We actually want our money going to the causes. So if it doesn't go to the cause, then we tend to not pick that,

So, like, one thesis is we are not really thesis, but rules. One rule is is we don't like money going to organizations that tons of high overhead. We actually want our money going to the causes. So if it doesn't go to the cause, then we tend to not pick that,

44:41

organization.

organization.

44:42

The second thing that we look for is,

The second thing that we look for is,

44:45

organizations who are,

organizations who are,

44:49

like, self sufficient.

like, self sufficient.

44:51

Right? It's just like, how can this continue going

Right? It's just like, how can this continue going

44:54

even if someone wasn't managing? So, like, a great program, for example,

even if someone wasn't managing? So, like, a great program, for example,

44:59

is my wife likes donating to women's education. We used to donate also to men's education as well. So you find these people in these villages,

is my wife likes donating to women's education. We used to donate also to men's education as well. So you find these people in these villages,

45:07

You say, hey, you can't afford to go to school, get a degree, we'll pay for you to go to college, go get a degree, come back, teach kids in your village for a few years, whether it's under a tree or anything, people can learn anywhere. Right? And then, you know, go move on with your life and do whatever you want, but at least you're giving back to your own community.

You say, hey, you can't afford to go to school, get a degree, we'll pay for you to go to college, go get a degree, come back, teach kids in your village for a few years, whether it's under a tree or anything, people can learn anywhere. Right? And then, you know, go move on with your life and do whatever you want, but at least you're giving back to your own community.

45:27

And what we found is when we started giving because we've been doing this for so long now.

And what we found is when we started giving because we've been doing this for so long now.

45:31

Well, actually not that long. But when I mean long, I'm talking about, like, ten, eleven years where we've been donating. And it it's picked up quite a bit over the last, like, five, six years. When we started giving the money to men, a lot of the men, we saw very low conversion rate from them actually coming back and teaching people in the village. Well, when we gave the money to women for their education, a lot of them came back

Well, actually not that long. But when I mean long, I'm talking about, like, ten, eleven years where we've been donating. And it it's picked up quite a bit over the last, like, five, six years. When we started giving the money to men, a lot of the men, we saw very low conversion rate from them actually coming back and teaching people in the village. Well, when we gave the money to women for their education, a lot of them came back

45:52

and fulfilled on the promise, because it's not like you get a signed contract. Right? It's just like, hey, we're gonna vapor everything, come back, help people out within your village. Which country?

and fulfilled on the promise, because it's not like you get a signed contract. Right? It's just like, hey, we're gonna vapor everything, come back, help people out within your village. Which country?

46:03

We've done this in both India and Africa.

We've done this in both India and Africa.

46:06

Different parts of Africa

Different parts of Africa

46:07

and, in India.

and, in India.

46:09

And then another program that we've done is, like, growing gardens

And then another program that we've done is, like, growing gardens

46:12

where a lot of people who have aids don't take the right don't take their medication and aren't doing well. They're getting they're giving the medication for free, but if your body doesn't have the right nutrients, it rejects it. So what we'll do is we'll do programs like growing gardens. We'll give them money. They grow food.

where a lot of people who have aids don't take the right don't take their medication and aren't doing well. They're getting they're giving the medication for free, but if your body doesn't have the right nutrients, it rejects it. So what we'll do is we'll do programs like growing gardens. We'll give them money. They grow food.

46:28

And then not only do they,

And then not only do they,

46:30

eat nutritionally or well? They'll more likely take their medication.

eat nutritionally or well? They'll more likely take their medication.

46:35

And you're also growing enough food so that way other people in the village can also,

And you're also growing enough food so that way other people in the village can also,

46:39

eat

eat

46:41

So I was like, but my wife picks all the causes.

So I was like, but my wife picks all the causes.

46:43

She vets them. She loves it. Like, she'll go this is Wednesday. In two days, she'll end up going to a function

She vets them. She loves it. Like, she'll go this is Wednesday. In two days, she'll end up going to a function

46:50

scouting out more nonprofits and organizations.

scouting out more nonprofits and organizations.

46:53

I won't go. Like, I think it's a waste of time. I'm like, if I'm gonna make more money, She can donate it. It's a better ROI than if I go spend three, four hours mingling

I won't go. Like, I think it's a waste of time. I'm like, if I'm gonna make more money, She can donate it. It's a better ROI than if I go spend three, four hours mingling

47:04

when she could just do that and I can go make more so that way we can donate more. Other than your own private businesses,

when she could just do that and I can go make more so that way we can donate more. Other than your own private businesses,

47:11

what have been your best financial investments that's allowed you to to donate and and

what have been your best financial investments that's allowed you to to donate and and

47:17

make a lot to to give away.

make a lot to to give away.

47:20

Stock market has done really well. Companies like Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, I know Facebook's down, but they still have been tear if you just bought the stocks early enough.

Stock market has done really well. Companies like Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, I know Facebook's down, but they still have been tear if you just bought the stocks early enough.

47:29

Because some of these companies have grown thirty, forty percent a year, and the public market's compounding. Right? And it really adds up.

Because some of these companies have grown thirty, forty percent a year, and the public market's compounding. Right? And it really adds up.

47:35

Angel investments have done really well for me. And I would say probably those are the two biggest

Angel investments have done really well for me. And I would say probably those are the two biggest

47:43

Stock market still has done well. I'll go in the last six months. I've taken a beating because I'm in a hundred percent tech companies.

Stock market still has done well. I'll go in the last six months. I've taken a beating because I'm in a hundred percent tech companies.

47:49

I don't diversify. Like, everyone's like, oh, you need some oil and you need this. I'm like, yeah, I'm just gonna go all tech. And people are like, oh, you're silly. Look how much you lost. But if you look at the whole time when I first bought in, I've done well. And I invested in what I understand on thirty seven. So who cares? You know, another ten years, everything should rebound assuming you pick the right companies. What's your portfolio

I don't diversify. Like, everyone's like, oh, you need some oil and you need this. I'm like, yeah, I'm just gonna go all tech. And people are like, oh, you're silly. Look how much you lost. But if you look at the whole time when I first bought in, I've done well. And I invested in what I understand on thirty seven. So who cares? You know, another ten years, everything should rebound assuming you pick the right companies. What's your portfolio

48:10

look like in terms of percentages?

look like in terms of percentages?

48:14

I including private businesses.

I including private businesses.

48:17

My public portfolio, I if I had a guess, I probably don't even have more than twenty stocks.

My public portfolio, I if I had a guess, I probably don't even have more than twenty stocks.

48:23

Amazon, I I I I won't be able to name them all about

Amazon, I I I I won't be able to name them all about

48:26

Amazon, Google, Facebook,

Amazon, Google, Facebook,

48:28

Apple, Microsoft,

Apple, Microsoft,

48:30

HubSpot, Salesforce, Adobe,

HubSpot, Salesforce, Adobe,

48:33

Alassian

Alassian

48:34

Shopify,

Shopify,

48:36

I'm missing some as well. And of your liquid, of your Of your liquid net worth, how much is in public equities versus other?

I'm missing some as well. And of your liquid, of your Of your liquid net worth, how much is in public equities versus other?

48:45

Versus.

Versus.

48:48

Just non agency. If if if I think your agency is your agency the only company that you own a significant stake in. If yes, exclude that, then what's your portfolio look like?

Just non agency. If if if I think your agency is your agency the only company that you own a significant stake in. If yes, exclude that, then what's your portfolio look like?

48:58

No. I have quite a bit other companies because I started using a lot of the cash to buy other companies for, like, three, four, five x, EBITDA, and then you just fix them and grow them and then just cash flow.

No. I have quite a bit other companies because I started using a lot of the cash to buy other companies for, like, three, four, five x, EBITDA, and then you just fix them and grow them and then just cash flow.

49:09

I would so if I look just at cash invested in other companies that aren't mine, like, not companies I'm buying out or anything like that,

I would so if I look just at cash invested in other companies that aren't mine, like, not companies I'm buying out or anything like that,

49:17

I would probably say eighty to ninety percent is in stocks.

I would probably say eighty to ninety percent is in stocks.

49:21

What companies were you buying?

What companies were you buying?

49:25

Any that we can find that we like. Like, we bought Uber SEDS. It was a software company, bought it for a hundred and twenty, put three million into it.

Any that we can find that we like. Like, we bought Uber SEDS. It was a software company, bought it for a hundred and twenty, put three million into it.

49:33

It took, I think, less

It took, I think, less

49:35

than seven or eight months to get to a million a month in revenue.

than seven or eight months to get to a million a month in revenue.

49:38

What? So that would be What's it called?

What? So that would be What's it called?

49:41

Uber suggests,

Uber suggests,

49:42

HR's competitor.

HR's competitor.

49:43

That one did well.

That one did well.

49:45

We just bought another one.

We just bought another one.

49:48

I'll let you name Lisa.

I'll let you name Lisa.

49:50

Crazy.

Crazy.

49:51

Then we we just bought another one. We haven't announced it. We bought it for eight point six, I think a month ago, a month and a half ago.

Then we we just bought another one. We haven't announced it. We bought it for eight point six, I think a month ago, a month and a half ago.

49:59

So we'll see that it does a hundred thousand a month.

So we'll see that it does a hundred thousand a month.

50:02

We think we can grow it within

We think we can grow it within

50:05

twelve months to probably like

twelve months to probably like

50:09

Four, five hundred grand a month and profit. So forget revenue. We just will look at it as a cash flow. So do you, have rules around that? Like, okay. I have to be able to grow it using the hotel dot com, or it has to be in the marketing niche. So the agency benefits no. It's like

Four, five hundred grand a month and profit. So forget revenue. We just will look at it as a cash flow. So do you, have rules around that? Like, okay. I have to be able to grow it using the hotel dot com, or it has to be in the marketing niche. So the agency benefits no. It's like

50:23

would you buy, like, brick you know, like, a fucking

would you buy, like, brick you know, like, a fucking

50:26

laundromat or

laundromat or

50:28

If I can grow it, I won't do too much brick and mortar, but I've invested in other people's brick and mortar. Like, I have a friend who does a lot of brick and mortar businesses.

If I can grow it, I won't do too much brick and mortar, but I've invested in other people's brick and mortar. Like, I have a friend who does a lot of brick and mortar businesses.

50:38

Like, one of my buddies has

Like, one of my buddies has

50:40

a roofing company.

a roofing company.

50:41

And I was like, oh, cool. You can buy it for three x. It's good size.

And I was like, oh, cool. You can buy it for three x. It's good size.

50:45

And I can show you a few things, and we can probably increase the profit by, like, sixty percent within twelve months. So it's like it's just good cash flow. Right? Like, if you're getting, like, thirty, forty, fifty percent returns on your money,

And I can show you a few things, and we can probably increase the profit by, like, sixty percent within twelve months. So it's like it's just good cash flow. Right? Like, if you're getting, like, thirty, forty, fifty percent returns on your money,

50:57

it's great. And then you also have to keep in mind because of

it's great. And then you also have to keep in mind because of

51:00

my

my

51:02

my history, and I've been doing this long enough, I also can get that at really cheap terms and large amounts of debt. Like, I can get debt at, like, three point six percent plus so far. So if I'm buying a business for five x, in many cases, because of the economics of my whole portfolio,

my history, and I've been doing this long enough, I also can get that at really cheap terms and large amounts of debt. Like, I can get debt at, like, three point six percent plus so far. So if I'm buying a business for five x, in many cases, because of the economics of my whole portfolio,

51:20

you know, some businesses I put down, like, on the one that was,

you know, some businesses I put down, like, on the one that was,

51:23

eight point six, two point six was,

eight point six, two point six was,

51:26

paid over

paid over

51:28

twelve or eighteen months or something like that. But we put six mill out front. I could've got a loan for it, but I was like, yeah, it's just easier to put the six mil and not deal with the paperwork. But sometimes we'll just do loans on the hundred percent of it and put zero down. Right.

twelve or eighteen months or something like that. But we put six mill out front. I could've got a loan for it, but I was like, yeah, it's just easier to put the six mil and not deal with the paperwork. But sometimes we'll just do loans on the hundred percent of it and put zero down. Right.

51:41

And what do you like okay. So you do what you do now. So you have your time, and it's pretty much probably fully allocated, let's say, to the agency and then some of these other things.

And what do you like okay. So you do what you do now. So you have your time, and it's pretty much probably fully allocated, let's say, to the agency and then some of these other things.

51:51

If somebody was smart,

If somebody was smart,

51:53

but didn't have your you have a bunch of visibility. You kinda know whether your industry's going. You see adjacent opportunities, but, hey, I'm not gonna I don't have the time.

but didn't have your you have a bunch of visibility. You kinda know whether your industry's going. You see adjacent opportunities, but, hey, I'm not gonna I don't have the time.

52:02

What are opportunities

What are opportunities

52:03

that you see that you think somebody listening to this who's just like smart, hustler,

that you see that you think somebody listening to this who's just like smart, hustler,

52:09

Like,

Like,

52:10

I got more time than I have ideas.

I got more time than I have ideas.

52:13

I got more time than I have money. Where would you go if you were that person? What would you what would you suggest for them to look at as, like, you know, opportunities that you see today?

I got more time than I have money. Where would you go if you were that person? What would you what would you suggest for them to look at as, like, you know, opportunities that you see today?

52:23

I would look for opportunities in anything that they're good at. And I know that's not the answer that you're looking for, but what I found that the issue is when people go look for opportunities that make some money, when you're not passionate, you don't put in the time and energy required to act. You make a successful.

I would look for opportunities in anything that they're good at. And I know that's not the answer that you're looking for, but what I found that the issue is when people go look for opportunities that make some money, when you're not passionate, you don't put in the time and energy required to act. You make a successful.

52:36

That's a big issue we see. Maybe some people have it in them where they can make something successful because they'll just tough it out, but most people we see will just quit because they just hate what they're doing. And so but I think a lot of people don't know what they love to do. They don't have, like, they don't if they already had what they love to do, they wouldn't be, you know, looking for opportunities. So, you know,

That's a big issue we see. Maybe some people have it in them where they can make something successful because they'll just tough it out, but most people we see will just quit because they just hate what they're doing. And so but I think a lot of people don't know what they love to do. They don't have, like, they don't if they already had what they love to do, they wouldn't be, you know, looking for opportunities. So, you know,

52:53

sort of like a by definition problem there. Right? So somebody who's who's thinking about, okay, I don't love what I'm currently doing. I'd like to I wanna get to where this guy's at, but which is basically, like, seems happy and successful.

sort of like a by definition problem there. Right? So somebody who's who's thinking about, okay, I don't love what I'm currently doing. I'd like to I wanna get to where this guy's at, but which is basically, like, seems happy and successful.

53:04

Right?

Right?

53:05

He he seems like he he said he loves what he's doing. I'd love to do that. But what if I don't know? Right? It's like when my sister was going college. My dad asked her. And she's like, what should I major in? He's like, I don't know. What's her favorite subject? And she was like, lunch? Like, you know, I don't I don't have a favorite subject. I don't love any of these subjects.

He he seems like he he said he loves what he's doing. I'd love to do that. But what if I don't know? Right? It's like when my sister was going college. My dad asked her. And she's like, what should I major in? He's like, I don't know. What's her favorite subject? And she was like, lunch? Like, you know, I don't I don't have a favorite subject. I don't love any of these subjects.

53:19

So what am what am I supposed to do? Like, am I just out?

So what am what am I supposed to do? Like, am I just out?

53:22

You know, I'm just not one of those Yeah. You can send me a lot of different until you find what you're passionate about. Cause if you try a lot of different things, you'll typically find something that you're naturally good at. Usually, what you're naturally good at, you'll also tend to favor in what you like, and then just double down on that.

You know, I'm just not one of those Yeah. You can send me a lot of different until you find what you're passionate about. Cause if you try a lot of different things, you'll typically find something that you're naturally good at. Usually, what you're naturally good at, you'll also tend to favor in what you like, and then just double down on that.

53:36

But if you're looking for industries with opportunities, I see a huge slowdown in e commerce. Not necessarily the e commerce market shrinking. I'm not saying that, but the growth in the e commerce market isn't as what was once used to be right when COVID first kick off. So you're gonna see the multiples go down to buy e commerce shops, b to c brands. Right? So great opportunity for buying and go fix them up and grow them and scale them. Another great opportunity right now is

But if you're looking for industries with opportunities, I see a huge slowdown in e commerce. Not necessarily the e commerce market shrinking. I'm not saying that, but the growth in the e commerce market isn't as what was once used to be right when COVID first kick off. So you're gonna see the multiples go down to buy e commerce shops, b to c brands. Right? So great opportunity for buying and go fix them up and grow them and scale them. Another great opportunity right now is

54:02

free.

free.

54:03

So I look at the whole software market as really backwards,

So I look at the whole software market as really backwards,

54:07

okay,

okay,

54:08

in which

in which

54:09

Right now, it doesn't matter if you're a HubSpot or Canva. Eventually, someone can just create a me too company and just undercut you on pricing. And what I've learned is If you can create a software company that already has a brand, that has a free product, and you just make it really good or free, and you're just adding more and more to it,

Right now, it doesn't matter if you're a HubSpot or Canva. Eventually, someone can just create a me too company and just undercut you on pricing. And what I've learned is If you can create a software company that already has a brand, that has a free product, and you just make it really good or free, and you're just adding more and more to it,

54:26

A great example of this is photo p. So there's this company called photo p. It's,

A great example of this is photo p. So there's this company called photo p. It's,

54:31

We love it. Photoshop.

We love it. Photoshop.

54:33

And it's like they make very little to no money. So I hit up one of my buddies who,

And it's like they make very little to no money. So I hit up one of my buddies who,

54:38

is great at outreaching, and I told him I won't auto pay. Offered him ten million. He said, no. Offer him twenty million. He said, no.

is great at outreaching, and I told him I won't auto pay. Offered him ten million. He said, no. Offer him twenty million. He said, no.

54:44

I can take photo p, make it a really good Canva competitor.

I can take photo p, make it a really good Canva competitor.

54:48

Undercut them on pricing, whatever be worth ten, twenty, forty billion, whatever they are, no. But I probably can cash out that thing to, like, or five million a month in EBITDA.

Undercut them on pricing, whatever be worth ten, twenty, forty billion, whatever they are, no. But I probably can cash out that thing to, like, or five million a month in EBITDA.

54:58

Right? It's like, who cares what it sells for or what it's worth? But you're saying you're saying make it free and you're saying a cash flows like a motherfucker. So what how do you take a free product in cash flow? Like, how would you explain that? Well, he said he said a Canva,

Right? It's like, who cares what it sells for or what it's worth? But you're saying you're saying make it free and you're saying a cash flows like a motherfucker. So what how do you take a free product in cash flow? Like, how would you explain that? Well, he said he said a Canva,

55:10

a a canva knock off.

a a canva knock off.

55:13

Kamba Naka. So you make you make almost ninety nine percent of it for free. You charge for one percent, but that one percent is enough where you can drive in the revenue. So you don't ever make as much as, like, a Canva or, like, a Mailchimp or a HubSpot, but, hey, if you can make millions a month in profit, it's still good. What's your map there? So when what's the calculus when you were thinking? So, like, let's say photo p, according to similar web, has ten million uniques a month or something. What was your math?

Kamba Naka. So you make you make almost ninety nine percent of it for free. You charge for one percent, but that one percent is enough where you can drive in the revenue. So you don't ever make as much as, like, a Canva or, like, a Mailchimp or a HubSpot, but, hey, if you can make millions a month in profit, it's still good. What's your map there? So when what's the calculus when you were thinking? So, like, let's say photo p, according to similar web, has ten million uniques a month or something. What was your math?

55:40

Is that right? Is that right? Yeah. It is right.

Is that right? Is that right? Yeah. It is right.

55:43

Yeah.

Yeah.

55:45

Like, what was your calculus to get to, four million in EBITDA a month? Like, what would how many people would you need to run it and what was the what's the calculus there?

Like, what was your calculus to get to, four million in EBITDA a month? Like, what would how many people would you need to run it and what was the what's the calculus there?

55:54

Sure. So I can probably get the thing from ten million visitors. I can so let's say I bought it for twenty. Right? Wouldn't sell it to me for twenty. I've never outreached him, but I had a buddy outreached him for me who just does all my outreach. So let's say I bought it for twenty, I would put another ten into it. So now I'm out thirty million dollars.

Sure. So I can probably get the thing from ten million visitors. I can so let's say I bought it for twenty. Right? Wouldn't sell it to me for twenty. I've never outreached him, but I had a buddy outreached him for me who just does all my outreach. So let's say I bought it for twenty, I would put another ten into it. So now I'm out thirty million dollars.

56:12

I'm really good at growing traffic, and I know I can grow the team to roughly forty million unique a month. I just have, like,

I'm really good at growing traffic, and I know I can grow the team to roughly forty million unique a month. I just have, like,

56:19

I don't know how, but for some weird reason, I know traffic really well and how to calculate what I can get it to and all this kind of stuff. Right? And I've done enough research to competitors of what features drive x amount of traffic, just looking at so many competitors in the space. So let's say if I get it to forty,

I don't know how, but for some weird reason, I know traffic really well and how to calculate what I can get it to and all this kind of stuff. Right? And I've done enough research to competitors of what features drive x amount of traffic, just looking at so many competitors in the space. So let's say if I get it to forty,

56:35

What is it called? Forty million. And what what one of the one or two things that you'd get at the forty million? Like SEO, basically?

What is it called? Forty million. And what what one of the one or two things that you'd get at the forty million? Like SEO, basically?

56:42

So, more SEO, more virality,

So, more SEO, more virality,

56:45

increasing the quality of the templates,

increasing the quality of the templates,

56:48

increasing features,

increasing features,

56:50

adding AI in their click a button, we can automatically detect backgrounds, remove it, filters for social media because a lot of people use them for social media. Logogenerator

adding AI in their click a button, we can automatically detect backgrounds, remove it, filters for social media because a lot of people use them for social media. Logogenerator

56:58

website as a lead gen shit like that.

website as a lead gen shit like that.

57:01

Right. So then so let's say you got up to forty million. Right? At forty million,

Right. So then so let's say you got up to forty million. Right? At forty million,

57:06

I can easily monetize.

I can easily monetize.

57:08

Let's call it, like,

Let's call it, like,

57:11

one percent of the traffic, but let's be even more conservative, like, a half a percent, two hundred thousand people.

one percent of the traffic, but let's be even more conservative, like, a half a percent, two hundred thousand people.

57:17

If I have two hundred thousand people hypothetically

If I have two hundred thousand people hypothetically

57:20

paying three dollars a month, okay, that's six hundred thousand. The reason I give you average three dollars in certain countries, you may wanna charge different pricing, like, India and stuff like that. So it's more affordable.

paying three dollars a month, okay, that's six hundred thousand. The reason I give you average three dollars in certain countries, you may wanna charge different pricing, like, India and stuff like that. So it's more affordable.

57:31

So three dollars a month And at three dollars a month, if a customer stays for ten months, that's six million dollars, we'll probably run the thing with less than a million, million and a half in burn each month. So then you think oh, so then for a million and a half burn, you would need to use Once you have tons of revenue, right, when you don't have tons of revenue, your burn is lower on a monthly basis. Yeah. But so then how many people then if it's you're looking at thirty people, you would need to run that operation?

So three dollars a month And at three dollars a month, if a customer stays for ten months, that's six million dollars, we'll probably run the thing with less than a million, million and a half in burn each month. So then you think oh, so then for a million and a half burn, you would need to use Once you have tons of revenue, right, when you don't have tons of revenue, your burn is lower on a monthly basis. Yeah. But so then how many people then if it's you're looking at thirty people, you would need to run that operation?

57:58

I I don't even think thirty, but let's say thirty total. I think I can actually run the thing for under a million dollars a month.

I I don't even think thirty, but let's say thirty total. I think I can actually run the thing for under a million dollars a month.

58:05

Right. So I'm just trying to do the math in my head, but, I mean,

Right. So I'm just trying to do the math in my head, but, I mean,

58:10

too there. It was, like, six hundred thousand or something. Right?

too there. It was, like, six hundred thousand or something. Right?

58:14

Six hundred thousand a month, but if a customer stays for ten months, you're looking at six million dollars.

Six hundred thousand a month, but if a customer stays for ten months, you're looking at six million dollars.

58:20

Because you charge upfront?

Because you charge upfront?

58:22

No. No. No. No. Okay. If they're paying three dollars a month, if you have four forty million, not four million, but forty million, you're converting a half a percent. That's two hundred thousand paying customers a month. If they pay you three dollars a month, that's a hundred thousand. They last for ten months. That's six million dollars a month in MRR

No. No. No. No. Okay. If they're paying three dollars a month, if you have four forty million, not four million, but forty million, you're converting a half a percent. That's two hundred thousand paying customers a month. If they pay you three dollars a month, that's a hundred thousand. They last for ten months. That's six million dollars a month in MRR

58:41

over a year. You're making seventy two million dollars in revenue.

over a year. You're making seventy two million dollars in revenue.

58:46

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

58:48

You're a very interesting person. You

You're a very interesting person. You

58:50

I just I think I dig you because you've got your hands many different things.

I just I think I dig you because you've got your hands many different things.

58:55

I honestly don't. At this point, I don't run anything. I come up with ideas. I have really good operators who are great at the execution like, go do this. It'll make money. Here's a play with go and just do it. So how many businesses do you own?

I honestly don't. At this point, I don't run anything. I come up with ideas. I have really good operators who are great at the execution like, go do this. It'll make money. Here's a play with go and just do it. So how many businesses do you own?

59:07

I don't know. I don't really count. I only look at it. Over or under ten.

I don't know. I don't really count. I only look at it. Over or under ten.

59:12

Over.

Over.

59:13

Over under twenty.

Over under twenty.

59:17

I don't know. Twenty's probably getting close.

I don't know. Twenty's probably getting close.

59:19

So probably under if I had a guess.

So probably under if I had a guess.

59:22

And how many of those twenty? How many of those twenty companies have more than five employees, full time employees?

And how many of those twenty? How many of those twenty companies have more than five employees, full time employees?

59:29

I don't know. I don't really count employee head count. I only know my ad agency head count because they do reports and I get in my board meeting deck Like, I'm like, oh, we got seven hundred people. And you own a hundred percent of most of these companies. It seems like you're not raising external capital.

I don't know. I don't really count employee head count. I only know my ad agency head count because they do reports and I get in my board meeting deck Like, I'm like, oh, we got seven hundred people. And you own a hundred percent of most of these companies. It seems like you're not raising external capital.

59:43

You might you give your CEO,

You might you give your CEO,

59:46

really anything.

really anything.

59:48

I always give equity to,

I always give equity to,

59:50

profit share, I I usually have a partner who runs things will get equity and then I'll do profit share. What's the, ideal setup for profit sharing and equity for your partner?

profit share, I I usually have a partner who runs things will get equity and then I'll do profit share. What's the, ideal setup for profit sharing and equity for your partner?

01:00:02

Partner, give them maybe ten percent of the business. They run it plus a really nice salary. What I mean, nice salary industry or more than industry.

Partner, give them maybe ten percent of the business. They run it plus a really nice salary. What I mean, nice salary industry or more than industry.

01:00:11

And then you have a pool for employees,

And then you have a pool for employees,

01:00:13

like another ten percent pool. So then you lose in total twenty percent. I'm left with the AD myself. I put up all the money. If it does well, great. If it doesn't, I lose the money. No one else is on the line.

like another ten percent pool. So then you lose in total twenty percent. I'm left with the AD myself. I put up all the money. If it does well, great. If it doesn't, I lose the money. No one else is on the line.

01:00:23

If it does well, no one has to pay me back the money. Everyone just takes their distributions a moment, it turns profitable from a monthly standpoint. Does that make sense? They don't actually have to pay back any of the other stuff. And then dude also do them ten percent the distribution, or do you make that even heavier

If it does well, no one has to pay me back the money. Everyone just takes their distributions a moment, it turns profitable from a monthly standpoint. Does that make sense? They don't actually have to pay back any of the other stuff. And then dude also do them ten percent the distribution, or do you make that even heavier

01:00:38

for them? No. Well, if I'm losing twenty percent in total, which is my deal structure, then twenty percent of the profits gets distributed on a monthly basis.

for them? No. Well, if I'm losing twenty percent in total, which is my deal structure, then twenty percent of the profits gets distributed on a monthly basis.

01:00:50

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

01:00:51

I love hearing about this. What do you think, Sean? Yeah. I think it's dope. I,

I love hearing about this. What do you think, Sean? Yeah. I think it's dope. I,

01:00:55

I had just seen you kinda from afar for a while that I I I got I know he, you know, loosely like we're friends, but,

I had just seen you kinda from afar for a while that I I I got I know he, you know, loosely like we're friends, but,

01:01:02

so, you know, I didn't know a lot of this story. I know I knew Sam, Sam has talked about you before on the pot. I think it's or maybe off the pot. I'm not sure. But Sam had told me some cool stuff.

so, you know, I didn't know a lot of this story. I know I knew Sam, Sam has talked about you before on the pot. I think it's or maybe off the pot. I'm not sure. But Sam had told me some cool stuff.

01:01:12

But I didn't know a lot of this. So for me, this was dope because I got to learn a bunch of new things. Sometimes when we have a guest, like, dude, I've already listened to ten of your things. I've been following you for five years, you know. So it's like I already know a lot of it, and I'm doing sort of like translation work for the audience. I'm like, tell them about this. Hey. Tell tell them about that thing you did, versus in this. Like, I genuinely wanted to know a bunch of the stuff, and I thought, you know,

But I didn't know a lot of this. So for me, this was dope because I got to learn a bunch of new things. Sometimes when we have a guest, like, dude, I've already listened to ten of your things. I've been following you for five years, you know. So it's like I already know a lot of it, and I'm doing sort of like translation work for the audience. I'm like, tell them about this. Hey. Tell tell them about that thing you did, versus in this. Like, I genuinely wanted to know a bunch of the stuff, and I thought, you know,

01:01:35

This is interesting to me. Yeah. You're you're great. There's two people that I wanted to talk to, Sean, who are like Neil. So, I mean, there's Neil. So I wanted Neil. I I like finding these people that, like, are doing really well. And a lot of people know about, but there's also this whole other world of people who have no idea who they are. Neil, you're one of those folks I've been I'm an o g reader, so I've known you forever. The other one is Sayed. So Sayed, we've talked about Sayed a bunch on here. Him and Neil, I think are very similar, which is very generous but also like pretty cutthroat when it comes to business and it has their hands in just dozens of different things and they're just quietly crushing it and not even talking about it. And He's a very generous person too. I know he has a school. I think in the same city I have a school in or a different city. I don't know. He actually went to go see his school. But, really generous guy.

This is interesting to me. Yeah. You're you're great. There's two people that I wanted to talk to, Sean, who are like Neil. So, I mean, there's Neil. So I wanted Neil. I I like finding these people that, like, are doing really well. And a lot of people know about, but there's also this whole other world of people who have no idea who they are. Neil, you're one of those folks I've been I'm an o g reader, so I've known you forever. The other one is Sayed. So Sayed, we've talked about Sayed a bunch on here. Him and Neil, I think are very similar, which is very generous but also like pretty cutthroat when it comes to business and it has their hands in just dozens of different things and they're just quietly crushing it and not even talking about it. And He's a very generous person too. I know he has a school. I think in the same city I have a school in or a different city. I don't know. He actually went to go see his school. But, really generous guy.

01:02:23

Him and I have built schools in

Him and I have built schools in

01:02:26

other rural countries and stuff like that. Yeah. It's just like, you YouTube

other rural countries and stuff like that. Yeah. It's just like, you YouTube

01:02:30

You guys are I don't know if you're like this Neil, but I know it seems like he's like this where he like

You guys are I don't know if you're like this Neil, but I know it seems like he's like this where he like

01:02:35

has this, you know, software business that's making who knows tens of many tens of millions in revenue and probably that much in profit. But and he, like, buys a gas station. Or he, like, he, like, buy it just it's just like, dude, are you kidding me? Like, you're a you're like a tech tycoon and you also own, like, thirty gas stations. It's just kinda funny. Here's the thing. Some of those businesses sell for, like, three x EBITDA. You get thirty three percent returns on your money. If you have good operators,

has this, you know, software business that's making who knows tens of many tens of millions in revenue and probably that much in profit. But and he, like, buys a gas station. Or he, like, he, like, buy it just it's just like, dude, are you kidding me? Like, you're a you're like a tech tycoon and you also own, like, thirty gas stations. It's just kinda funny. Here's the thing. Some of those businesses sell for, like, three x EBITDA. You get thirty three percent returns on your money. If you have good operators,

01:02:59

and you can put technology in place and marketing, and you can grow to maybe fifty times

and you can put technology in place and marketing, and you can grow to maybe fifty times

01:03:04

IRR,

IRR,

01:03:04

That's great. It's just the question of can you scale it up and you can you do ones that are large enough? I know. I'm just saying it's cool that you know this stuff. That's what you're eclectic.

That's great. It's just the question of can you scale it up and you can you do ones that are large enough? I know. I'm just saying it's cool that you know this stuff. That's what you're eclectic.

01:03:13

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:03:14

Him and I, actually, I shouldn't speak for him, but I'm a little off. Right? But the the madness or the methodology, I think, is great for cash flow. It's terrible if you wanna be, like, oh, I'm gonna create the next Airbnb and take this thing public and be, like, on the Forbes list. Like, it's not what I do. Is that are you motivated to become a billionaire? What what what's your motivation factor? What what what are you motivated about? Well, I won't ever be a billionaire. I'm not saying I have the opportunity to, but even if I did,

Him and I, actually, I shouldn't speak for him, but I'm a little off. Right? But the the madness or the methodology, I think, is great for cash flow. It's terrible if you wanna be, like, oh, I'm gonna create the next Airbnb and take this thing public and be, like, on the Forbes list. Like, it's not what I do. Is that are you motivated to become a billionaire? What what what's your motivation factor? What what what are you motivated about? Well, I won't ever be a billionaire. I'm not saying I have the opportunity to, but even if I did,

01:03:41

I would never be there because we donate our money. And when I was being donate, like, not wait till you're dead to donate, like, actually donate on an annual basis. How do you figure out how do you figure out how much you wanna give? Because there's always, like, like, when I think about it, I think, like, well, I could also invest this money. It's gonna grow. I'm gonna give more later, but then I'm not helping somebody now. And so what's the right number? What's the right percentage, basically, for me to to be giving on an annual basis? How do you figure that out for yourself?

I would never be there because we donate our money. And when I was being donate, like, not wait till you're dead to donate, like, actually donate on an annual basis. How do you figure out how do you figure out how much you wanna give? Because there's always, like, like, when I think about it, I think, like, well, I could also invest this money. It's gonna grow. I'm gonna give more later, but then I'm not helping somebody now. And so what's the right number? What's the right percentage, basically, for me to to be giving on an annual basis? How do you figure that out for yourself?

01:04:07

Whatever my wife wants to give.

Whatever my wife wants to give.

01:04:09

What person what percentage does that come out to?

What person what percentage does that come out to?

01:04:13

We we don't have a percentage Keep in mind businesses are so large. I can get loans for anything on almost any type of business. I can't go buy a business for a million doll or a billion dollars if I wanted to buy a business for a hundred million dollars, I can go get a loan on that, like, literally for most of it.

We we don't have a percentage Keep in mind businesses are so large. I can get loans for anything on almost any type of business. I can't go buy a business for a million doll or a billion dollars if I wanted to buy a business for a hundred million dollars, I can go get a loan on that, like, literally for most of it.

01:04:28

So I, you know, I don't have to worry anymore about do I need more of it to invest. It's just we find the right causes and is it gonna make a big enough impact. That's more that's more about how we look about donations. Don't really look at it from the aspect. Am I donating x dollars or is it too high of a percentage? We look at it as do we actually think it's gonna make a big impact in the next year or short run or two years. We don't wanna wait, like, ten, twenty years to see a impact.

So I, you know, I don't have to worry anymore about do I need more of it to invest. It's just we find the right causes and is it gonna make a big enough impact. That's more that's more about how we look about donations. Don't really look at it from the aspect. Am I donating x dollars or is it too high of a percentage? We look at it as do we actually think it's gonna make a big impact in the next year or short run or two years. We don't wanna wait, like, ten, twenty years to see a impact.

01:04:53

We also don't wanna put money towards, like, things like cancer research. I think cancer is really important. I know a lot of people who have died from cancer, but I don't have enough money to make it bet into cancer versus,

We also don't wanna put money towards, like, things like cancer research. I think cancer is really important. I know a lot of people who have died from cancer, but I don't have enough money to make it bet into cancer versus,

01:05:05

you know, solving some of the basic things out there, like, I can make an impact on things like education in a region. I can't make an impact on cancer. I just don't have enough cash for that.

you know, solving some of the basic things out there, like, I can make an impact on things like education in a region. I can't make an impact on cancer. I just don't have enough cash for that.

01:05:16

Where, what is your school? You said I have a school? It sounds tight. I want a school.

Where, what is your school? You said I have a school? It sounds tight. I want a school.

01:05:21

I've never seen it. We have a school I think it's in Cambodia, and we've done a few others, but I don't really keep track. My wife does. And,

I've never seen it. We have a school I think it's in Cambodia, and we've done a few others, but I don't really keep track. My wife does. And,

01:05:29

you know, the bigger thing is it's not my school is more so at the kid's school, you know, are they learning and

you know, the bigger thing is it's not my school is more so at the kid's school, you know, are they learning and

01:05:35

getting value from it? And that's I, I remember the first school that I bought and forgot about it. I was gonna say,

getting value from it? And that's I, I remember the first school that I bought and forgot about it. I was gonna say,

01:05:41

When I buy my school, it's for sure gonna be my school. They might attend my school in Cambodia. Yeah.

When I buy my school, it's for sure gonna be my school. They might attend my school in Cambodia. Yeah.

01:05:49

Like that. I bought a couple I I bought a couple schools in this couch cushion back here. It just I just forgot about it. I just it's a little scene I played in a while ago. I remember when I was on college camps, I all, like, you know, whoever the Roth child or, like, the Rockefeller's

Like that. I bought a couple I I bought a couple schools in this couch cushion back here. It just I just forgot about it. I just it's a little scene I played in a while ago. I remember when I was on college camps, I all, like, you know, whoever the Roth child or, like, the Rockefeller's

01:06:02

nameplate or whatever on the, like,

nameplate or whatever on the, like,

01:06:04

the the library

the the library

01:06:05

at Duke Campus, I was like, who would do this? Why? What's the point of this? You know, like, so it's already Nice. Not not that kind of schools. I don't have that kind of money. Mine like, little kids I didn't understand the appeal until you said you basically described the school you have and forgot and have never visited. And I was that sounds like something I want. I don't want my name played on, you know,

at Duke Campus, I was like, who would do this? Why? What's the point of this? You know, like, so it's already Nice. Not not that kind of schools. I don't have that kind of money. Mine like, little kids I didn't understand the appeal until you said you basically described the school you have and forgot and have never visited. And I was that sounds like something I want. I don't want my name played on, you know,

01:06:25

the villanova, like, tenth Library on campus, but, like,

the villanova, like, tenth Library on campus, but, like,

01:06:29

just to know that there's, you know,

just to know that there's, you know,

01:06:31

twelve kids in Vietnam attending my school.

twelve kids in Vietnam attending my school.

01:06:34

They're wondering why does this name have somebody a's in you know, who is this who is this benefactor, silent benefactor who has forgotten where our school, where the school is? That sounds like a perfect blend of giving

They're wondering why does this name have somebody a's in you know, who is this who is this benefactor, silent benefactor who has forgotten where our school, where the school is? That sounds like a perfect blend of giving

01:06:46

and ego mania that I live for. So that's perfect.

and ego mania that I live for. So that's perfect.

01:06:49

Neil, we, we usually so we don't have guests on often And when we do, we typically never just ask them questions like this. We like it's more of a conversation where we're brainstorming stuff. We ask you tons of questions because you're just a very fascinating person. I hope you'll come on soon and you could actually brainstorm,

Neil, we, we usually so we don't have guests on often And when we do, we typically never just ask them questions like this. We like it's more of a conversation where we're brainstorming stuff. We ask you tons of questions because you're just a very fascinating person. I hope you'll come on soon and you could actually brainstorm,

01:07:06

like

like

01:07:07

another Uber suggests or something like that, you know, actually go through some of this. I I I hope you'll come back again because this is awesome.

another Uber suggests or something like that, you know, actually go through some of this. I I I hope you'll come back again because this is awesome.

01:07:14

Yeah. It was so funny. I was just doing the interview. I'm like, oh, crap. I should have never people how much I spend a month. I'd have never told people I donate money. And I was just like, it it goes against a lot of what my wife and I do. We're more Don't tell anyone anything, live our lives and

Yeah. It was so funny. I was just doing the interview. I'm like, oh, crap. I should have never people how much I spend a month. I'd have never told people I donate money. And I was just like, it it goes against a lot of what my wife and I do. We're more Don't tell anyone anything, live our lives and

01:07:28

do whatever makes sense. Well, you only told it because it's not like you're bragging. We, like, kinda begged you to tell the like, we are kinda got under we were like, yeah. Tell us. Go. Go. Tell us. It's not like you're, like, brag I don't think that's bragging.

do whatever makes sense. Well, you only told it because it's not like you're bragging. We, like, kinda begged you to tell the like, we are kinda got under we were like, yeah. Tell us. Go. Go. Tell us. It's not like you're, like, brag I don't think that's bragging.

01:07:40

It's it's not even bragging. It just feels weird to talk about expenses. Right? Because there's so many people who struggle for, like, clean water or shoes. Right? This is like, yeah.

It's it's not even bragging. It just feels weird to talk about expenses. Right? Because there's so many people who struggle for, like, clean water or shoes. Right? This is like, yeah.

01:07:49

Yeah. But this is interesting. Those people, if they ever listen podcast. They've already been filtered out by our douchiness in other,

Yeah. But this is interesting. Those people, if they ever listen podcast. They've already been filtered out by our douchiness in other,

01:07:56

episodes. So don't worry. Those anybody who sensitive to that is probably gone by now, But also there's there's actually a lot of good, like, I actually pretty passionately believe this. Like, not only am I curious from, like, a, oh, I wanna know. I wanna learn. But, like, I'm actually pretty strongly believe that the way that people are, like, treat money is a pretty taboo thing.

episodes. So don't worry. Those anybody who sensitive to that is probably gone by now, But also there's there's actually a lot of good, like, I actually pretty passionately believe this. Like, not only am I curious from, like, a, oh, I wanna know. I wanna learn. But, like, I'm actually pretty strongly believe that the way that people are, like, treat money is a pretty taboo thing.

01:08:15

Actually, it's like a net like, a huge net negative on most people. So, like, you know, people don't know what other people make. Therefore, they don't know like, they don't know when they're underpaid. They don't know what's possible. They don't ever like, sometimes the most valuable conversations I have with somebody is just somebody for whom they do something, like, something's very normal to them. It would be abnormal to me, but it has now expanded my worldview of what's possible and what could be normal for me. Like, oh, maybe it could be normal to actually, like, give more, donate more, have a school. Actually, that sounds like something I actually gonna go talk to my wife about today is, like, something we should go do that, like, It's not because you weren't bragging about it. You high you just kind of were honest about how you live your life, which is no there's nothing wrong with that. That's that's great. I in my opinion, and it expands other people's worldview for something that maybe they wanna go do or something that they haven't considered.

Actually, it's like a net like, a huge net negative on most people. So, like, you know, people don't know what other people make. Therefore, they don't know like, they don't know when they're underpaid. They don't know what's possible. They don't ever like, sometimes the most valuable conversations I have with somebody is just somebody for whom they do something, like, something's very normal to them. It would be abnormal to me, but it has now expanded my worldview of what's possible and what could be normal for me. Like, oh, maybe it could be normal to actually, like, give more, donate more, have a school. Actually, that sounds like something I actually gonna go talk to my wife about today is, like, something we should go do that, like, It's not because you weren't bragging about it. You high you just kind of were honest about how you live your life, which is no there's nothing wrong with that. That's that's great. I in my opinion, and it expands other people's worldview for something that maybe they wanna go do or something that they haven't considered.

01:09:04

And, like, it's really weird to me that we keep this stuff under wraps. And if somebody's just honest,

And, like, it's really weird to me that we keep this stuff under wraps. And if somebody's just honest,

01:09:08

about, like, the way they live their life. It's sort of like there's, like, all these, like, negative taboo around it. And, like, fuck that. I don't like that at all. And,

about, like, the way they live their life. It's sort of like there's, like, all these, like, negative taboo around it. And, like, fuck that. I don't like that at all. And,

01:09:16

It's it's been like when when Sam first met me, I think this I think I've told the story before, but, like, the second day I met him, and then, like, the next day he messaged me on a Facebook investor was like, So, like, well, how much do you make? And he was like, no, like, what do you pay yourself? He's like, so then what he and then I, like, I was like, woah, that's, like, super forward.

It's it's been like when when Sam first met me, I think this I think I've told the story before, but, like, the second day I met him, and then, like, the next day he messaged me on a Facebook investor was like, So, like, well, how much do you make? And he was like, no, like, what do you pay yourself? He's like, so then what he and then I, like, I was like, woah, that's, like, super forward.

01:09:30

He's like, but he told me why. He was, trying to figure out how much to pay myself as an entrepreneur. I have no fucking clue. And, like, my investors think I should make this much, but I don't know if is that normal? And, like, I can kinda ask you and dance around it or, like, just asking, like, five friends what they make in the same role as I am, like, startup CEO. And, like, that'll help you figure out what's normal, what's the range of, like, possibilities here. And then after that, he was like, so what do you do with the money? Like, what what do you invest? He's like, wow, that's a lot. Like, you know, what are you investing that? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, are you investing in? I started telling him, and he's like, cool. I'm investing in this. And now I got new ideas about what I could be investing. And I it really became very obvious to me in that moment. I was like, Oh, shit. You're at a massive advantage if you have a few people you trust that you can talk openly about this sort of thing with. And the podcast was basically taking that doing it at scale. I was like, alright. Well, What if me and Sam were pretty honest about, like, the shit we do? And, like, what if we could get guests to be honest about the shit they do, they're like, that's actually a pretty valuable resource for people who don't have five they don't happen to have that lucky group of five friends who are all motivated

He's like, but he told me why. He was, trying to figure out how much to pay myself as an entrepreneur. I have no fucking clue. And, like, my investors think I should make this much, but I don't know if is that normal? And, like, I can kinda ask you and dance around it or, like, just asking, like, five friends what they make in the same role as I am, like, startup CEO. And, like, that'll help you figure out what's normal, what's the range of, like, possibilities here. And then after that, he was like, so what do you do with the money? Like, what what do you invest? He's like, wow, that's a lot. Like, you know, what are you investing that? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, are you investing in? I started telling him, and he's like, cool. I'm investing in this. And now I got new ideas about what I could be investing. And I it really became very obvious to me in that moment. I was like, Oh, shit. You're at a massive advantage if you have a few people you trust that you can talk openly about this sort of thing with. And the podcast was basically taking that doing it at scale. I was like, alright. Well, What if me and Sam were pretty honest about, like, the shit we do? And, like, what if we could get guests to be honest about the shit they do, they're like, that's actually a pretty valuable resource for people who don't have five they don't happen to have that lucky group of five friends who are all motivated

01:10:28

entrepreneurs who are also open and honest about what they do. It's like, well, not everybody is located in a place they have five people geographically around them that they can trust to talk about that stuff. And so the pod kinda, like, serves as that. So that's my, justification for why you shouldn't feel bad about about sharing that information. Do you did it work, Neil? Do do not feel But if you want, we'll bleep it out or whatever if if you feel like that too. Okay. It is what it is. I still feel bad, but it is what it is.

entrepreneurs who are also open and honest about what they do. It's like, well, not everybody is located in a place they have five people geographically around them that they can trust to talk about that stuff. And so the pod kinda, like, serves as that. So that's my, justification for why you shouldn't feel bad about about sharing that information. Do you did it work, Neil? Do do not feel But if you want, we'll bleep it out or whatever if if you feel like that too. Okay. It is what it is. I still feel bad, but it is what it is.

01:10:53

Mission Nicole. I thought it was.

Mission Nicole. I thought it was.

01:10:55

I thought it was a great speech shot. I I I felt good about that. Thank you, Neil.

I thought it was a great speech shot. I I I felt good about that. Thank you, Neil.

01:11:00

This is a great speech, buck. I I I still feel bad because I look at money as like a tool to help other people, and I'm not saying that's right or wrong. That's how I just do. But I also know I spend more than I should.

This is a great speech, buck. I I I still feel bad because I look at money as like a tool to help other people, and I'm not saying that's right or wrong. That's how I just do. But I also know I spend more than I should.

01:11:11

And I probably should cut back and

And I probably should cut back and

01:11:14

live a more humble life and spend a lot less. Yeah. Dude, I'm inspired by how you spend and how you live, and you know, you've done some good in the world by inspiring me.

live a more humble life and spend a lot less. Yeah. Dude, I'm inspired by how you spend and how you live, and you know, you've done some good in the world by inspiring me.

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