00:00

Alright. So we have Austin here, Austin Reef,

Alright. So we have Austin here, Austin Reef,

00:02

founder of, morning brew.

founder of, morning brew.

00:05

I I I I know how big you guys I don't know what the public numbers are. So I'll let you kinda say, like, how how big is the company now?

I I I I know how big you guys I don't know what the public numbers are. So I'll let you kinda say, like, how how big is the company now?

00:12

Yeah. Seventy, seventy five million of revenue this year.

Yeah. Seventy, seventy five million of revenue this year.

00:15

Double digit profit,

Double digit profit,

00:16

margin. Two hundred fifty people or so.

margin. Two hundred fifty people or so.

00:25

And it's kind of a crazy kind of a crazy

And it's kind of a crazy kind of a crazy

00:27

story. You guys started this. You guys were at college. Right? You're you're at is it Michigan? Where where you guys went to school? Yeah. So so we went to University in Michigan. I applied to Duke. Didn't get in, though, unfortunately. Yeah. Sorry. We went to Michigan.

story. You guys started this. You guys were at college. Right? You're you're at is it Michigan? Where where you guys went to school? Yeah. So so we went to University in Michigan. I applied to Duke. Didn't get in, though, unfortunately. Yeah. Sorry. We went to Michigan.

00:40

Yeah. I went to a small private. Right. MarketOLenses.

Yeah. I went to a small private. Right. MarketOLenses.

00:43

So I

So I

00:45

no. Michigan worked out well. It was a little cold, a little bit colder than Duke, but

no. Michigan worked out well. It was a little cold, a little bit colder than Duke, but

00:50

I

I

00:51

I mean, my goal was to go to the biggest school I could get into, other than, you know, Ivy or Duke. So I got in Michigan. Had no idea what I wanted to do.

I mean, my goal was to go to the biggest school I could get into, other than, you know, Ivy or Duke. So I got in Michigan. Had no idea what I wanted to do.

00:59

Never went to finance of Michigan. So I was like, oh, I gotta I gotta follow the herd. I was a a sheep following the herd straight into the world of corporate finance or investment banking.

Never went to finance of Michigan. So I was like, oh, I gotta I gotta follow the herd. I was a a sheep following the herd straight into the world of corporate finance or investment banking.

01:08

And then stumble upon this guy Alex Lieberman, who

And then stumble upon this guy Alex Lieberman, who

01:12

was like, I wouldn't even call a newsletter. It was a PDF attached to an email. He actually took a he made a word document he would PDF it and put it to an email. And that was the first newsletter.

was like, I wouldn't even call a newsletter. It was a PDF attached to an email. He actually took a he made a word document he would PDF it and put it to an email. And that was the first newsletter.

01:22

So he was he was already doing it. Was it called morning brew? No. It was called Market Corner. It was way more it's based way more finance oriented. Was he in college as well, or is he had he graduated? Yeah. So he was two years older than I was. And that's a big part of our assessed, to be honest. If I was his age, we probably would've went out and raised venture capital. So, you know, twenty, twenty fifteen, you have Buzzfeed raising money, life raising money. And the only reason we didn't follow that path was because I was in college, and no one's gonna fund a a sophomore in college. And so Alice went to work at Morgan Stanley for fourteen months. I spent a summer in investment banking and was like, holy shit. This is miserable. Get me out of

So he was he was already doing it. Was it called morning brew? No. It was called Market Corner. It was way more it's based way more finance oriented. Was he in college as well, or is he had he graduated? Yeah. So he was two years older than I was. And that's a big part of our assessed, to be honest. If I was his age, we probably would've went out and raised venture capital. So, you know, twenty, twenty fifteen, you have Buzzfeed raising money, life raising money. And the only reason we didn't follow that path was because I was in college, and no one's gonna fund a a sophomore in college. And so Alice went to work at Morgan Stanley for fourteen months. I spent a summer in investment banking and was like, holy shit. This is miserable. Get me out of

02:01

here. So I was like, alright, well, I got this morning Bruce thing. I might as well do it for a couple of years. And what's the worst thing that happens? I come back here, and that was the that was the start of going full time. What did your nice Jewish parents think about you not becoming a banker and instead working on a a newsletter?

here. So I was like, alright, well, I got this morning Bruce thing. I might as well do it for a couple of years. And what's the worst thing that happens? I come back here, and that was the that was the start of going full time. What did your nice Jewish parents think about you not becoming a banker and instead working on a a newsletter?

02:16

So my parents were actually okay with it except.

So my parents were actually okay with it except.

02:20

I told them after my junior year, I said I have one more year of college What if I I just don't go back? What if I don't finish? And the idea of them spending a hundred and fifty thousand dollars on three years of college and not finishing my senior year drove them nuts. So the deal we made is if I if I, graduate and they were cool with me doing morning brew for a year or two after. And then fast forward,

I told them after my junior year, I said I have one more year of college What if I I just don't go back? What if I don't finish? And the idea of them spending a hundred and fifty thousand dollars on three years of college and not finishing my senior year drove them nuts. So the deal we made is if I if I, graduate and they were cool with me doing morning brew for a year or two after. And then fast forward,

02:42

you guys so it was funny.

you guys so it was funny.

02:45

Right when we were sell in the process of selling, you announced that you had sold, like,

Right when we were sell in the process of selling, you announced that you had sold, like,

02:50

months or two months, in a before us. And So you guys sold a portion of the business. I think the majority of the business for at something like a seventy million dollar valuation in that ballpark. Right? Yeah. Right around there. I think we were actually we were doing M and A at the same time. We were even talking to some similar partners.

months or two months, in a before us. And So you guys sold a portion of the business. I think the majority of the business for at something like a seventy million dollar valuation in that ballpark. Right? Yeah. Right around there. I think we were actually we were doing M and A at the same time. We were even talking to some similar partners.

03:07

I I think we were And the reason why, like,

I I think we were And the reason why, like,

03:11

Sean and I wanted to have you on because we wanna talk about newsletters, which every all three of us have a newsletter business, but you and I have an interesting background. We're like, on paper, we kind of hated each other. Like, the whole time I kind of I hated you, dude. I hated you. So I didn't entirely hate you. I just it was So I hated you. It was, like, I,

Sean and I wanted to have you on because we wanna talk about newsletters, which every all three of us have a newsletter business, but you and I have an interesting background. We're like, on paper, we kind of hated each other. Like, the whole time I kind of I hated you, dude. I hated you. So I didn't entirely hate you. I just it was So I hated you. It was, like, I,

03:29

it was, like, just sports, opposing sports teams, where I was, like, I have a lot of respect for this person. I don't know anything about their character, but I'm gonna make up the story in my head to, like, motivate me. And the reason why I wanted to do that was because we so I launched we technically launched, the hustle on April, April twenty sixteen. Were you before us or after us? We were twenty fifteen when we launched the first newsletter, but it wasn't, it was a very small So we were going, like, back and forth. It was, like, the skin was, like, the thing, and then it was you and I, morning brew and the hustle. And you guys were this, like, New York kinda buttoned up crew I was like a little bit of a crazier person. It was tech, San Francisco, but it was like, everyone kept comparing us. And I remember, like, wanting to, like, crush you guys And then after we both sold,

it was, like, just sports, opposing sports teams, where I was, like, I have a lot of respect for this person. I don't know anything about their character, but I'm gonna make up the story in my head to, like, motivate me. And the reason why I wanted to do that was because we so I launched we technically launched, the hustle on April, April twenty sixteen. Were you before us or after us? We were twenty fifteen when we launched the first newsletter, but it wasn't, it was a very small So we were going, like, back and forth. It was, like, the skin was, like, the thing, and then it was you and I, morning brew and the hustle. And you guys were this, like, New York kinda buttoned up crew I was like a little bit of a crazier person. It was tech, San Francisco, but it was like, everyone kept comparing us. And I remember, like, wanting to, like, crush you guys And then after we both sold,

04:13

Alex called me

Alex called me

04:15

and, you and I became buddies. And I was like, oh, no. I actually love these guys. And now at this point, you and I are great friends. And I have a ton of respect. But, yeah, like, I wanted to crush you. I didn't I didn't really hate you. What what did you feel?

and, you and I became buddies. And I was like, oh, no. I actually love these guys. And now at this point, you and I are great friends. And I have a ton of respect. But, yeah, like, I wanted to crush you. I didn't I didn't really hate you. What what did you feel?

04:28

Yeah.

Yeah.

04:29

Look, I I think it's it's always good for a business to have an enemy. I think in the early days, our enemy was the skin. Very quickly, though. We were like, you know what, they're they're not our enemy. We realized I think we both realized pretty that you can't raise twenty five million dollars, for a newsletter and have a good exit. And so I think it was you and us. And so I turned you into the enemy And I was so immature at the time. Right? I it was my first thing out of college. I knew nothing. So I was like, here's this guy. He's so abrasive.

Look, I I think it's it's always good for a business to have an enemy. I think in the early days, our enemy was the skin. Very quickly, though. We were like, you know what, they're they're not our enemy. We realized I think we both realized pretty that you can't raise twenty five million dollars, for a newsletter and have a good exit. And so I think it was you and us. And so I turned you into the enemy And I was so immature at the time. Right? I it was my first thing out of college. I knew nothing. So I was like, here's this guy. He's so abrasive.

04:53

He's so aggressive.

He's so aggressive.

04:55

Like, what? The and, like, I was still I I wasn't principled. I didn't have real values at the time. And so I just saw you who are super valued, right? You you have strong principles, very strong principles, which some people love tons of people I'm sure don't like,

Like, what? The and, like, I was still I I wasn't principled. I didn't have real values at the time. And so I just saw you who are super valued, right? You you have strong principles, very strong principles, which some people love tons of people I'm sure don't like,

05:08

and I was like, this guy is just so abrasive. And I I've learned to love that about you, but at the time, it just it rubbed me the wrong way. And I was like, we're gonna make this guy your enemy, and we're gonna crush this guy. Yeah. I used to get mad because

and I was like, this guy is just so abrasive. And I I've learned to love that about you, but at the time, it just it rubbed me the wrong way. And I was like, we're gonna make this guy your enemy, and we're gonna crush this guy. Yeah. I used to get mad because

05:20

everything that I was bad at. You were good at. And everything that I was good at, I thought you guys were bad at. And I'm like, shit. They're just stealing all my ideas from my ads that I'm running or they're stealing all my content ideas. And then I how you guys operate. And I'd be like, no. We gotta have all these sales people just like the, like, I remember. I was, I was at your office and,

everything that I was bad at. You were good at. And everything that I was good at, I thought you guys were bad at. And I'm like, shit. They're just stealing all my ideas from my ads that I'm running or they're stealing all my content ideas. And then I how you guys operate. And I'd be like, no. We gotta have all these sales people just like the, like, I remember. I was, I was at your office and,

05:39

I and you were talking about morning brew and you were like, I thought you would just hate them and be like, they suck because,

I and you were talking about morning brew and you were like, I thought you would just hate them and be like, they suck because,

05:46

I feel like that's how we used to just talk about most people at most startups. It's just like, oh my god, they suck. And especially one that's doing what you're doing, then it's like, oh, I already want you to suck. So I'm gonna say that. And instead, you were like, god, why does this email look better than ours? And you would just, like, show it to the whole team and you're like, look at this.

I feel like that's how we used to just talk about most people at most startups. It's just like, oh my god, they suck. And especially one that's doing what you're doing, then it's like, oh, I already want you to suck. So I'm gonna say that. And instead, you were like, god, why does this email look better than ours? And you would just, like, show it to the whole team and you're like, look at this.

06:04

Why does this look so much better than our email? Look at what they do at the top. Like, god, there's some like, there's, like, they're so much better at that. You know, like, the the formatting or the cleanliness or, like, the the brand that they are doing at the I remember at the top of the email.

Why does this look so much better than our email? Look at what they do at the top. Like, god, there's some like, there's, like, they're so much better at that. You know, like, the the formatting or the cleanliness or, like, the the brand that they are doing at the I remember at the top of the email.

06:17

And I was like, wow. He just respects the the actual, like, craft so much that he can't even hate them fully. He's like, they're doing good at these three things.

And I was like, wow. He just respects the the actual, like, craft so much that he can't even hate them fully. He's like, they're doing good at these three things.

06:28

Sam, I'll give you a story only I've ever told you, which is you know, there was a time where I thought our copy was much better than yours, our editorial. And then there was a time where I thought you guys passed us, right?

Sam, I'll give you a story only I've ever told you, which is you know, there was a time where I thought our copy was much better than yours, our editorial. And then there was a time where I thought you guys passed us, right?

06:39

And

And

06:40

Alex, in particular, was maniacal about this. He would print out morning brew in the hustle every single morning. And we just go line by line. We'd sit down line by line, and we'd be like, that line's better. No. Our line's better. No. That, and we go line by line. And some some of early morning for employees, they really hated you, because when you wrote a story that we wrote and when yours was better, and Alex thought yours was better. P bind, people were pissed. There were, like, a revolt in the morning of your office one morning, because people were, like, no, ours is better. And I think, ultimately, it wasn't better or worse. Right? It was just tater towards different people. I mean, yeah, we, we printed out your newsletter every day and read through it, through it for, I don't know, six months, nine months. Like, we were just so focused. Like, I've never been as hyper focused as I was in twenty eighteen on us writing the best newsletter, growing the best newsletter and selling it. Like, I woke up every day write Groselle, write Groselle. Like, we wrote it in the wall. And at eleven AM every single day, we had the great wall of opens, and we track our open rate and write it down the wall and we had that for probably two years running every day. What was our open rate? And your strategy was to our our our strategies were they diverged and they were different. So we were gonna launch We're gonna stay in this space and verticalize and launch subscription services and all this other stuff. You guys launched multiple different newsletters, which meant from my eyes, you grew your revenue quicker.

Alex, in particular, was maniacal about this. He would print out morning brew in the hustle every single morning. And we just go line by line. We'd sit down line by line, and we'd be like, that line's better. No. Our line's better. No. That, and we go line by line. And some some of early morning for employees, they really hated you, because when you wrote a story that we wrote and when yours was better, and Alex thought yours was better. P bind, people were pissed. There were, like, a revolt in the morning of your office one morning, because people were, like, no, ours is better. And I think, ultimately, it wasn't better or worse. Right? It was just tater towards different people. I mean, yeah, we, we printed out your newsletter every day and read through it, through it for, I don't know, six months, nine months. Like, we were just so focused. Like, I've never been as hyper focused as I was in twenty eighteen on us writing the best newsletter, growing the best newsletter and selling it. Like, I woke up every day write Groselle, write Groselle. Like, we wrote it in the wall. And at eleven AM every single day, we had the great wall of opens, and we track our open rate and write it down the wall and we had that for probably two years running every day. What was our open rate? And your strategy was to our our our strategies were they diverged and they were different. So we were gonna launch We're gonna stay in this space and verticalize and launch subscription services and all this other stuff. You guys launched multiple different newsletters, which meant from my eyes, you grew your revenue quicker.

07:59

I personally hate that business because I don't like advertising that much. But you grew your revenue way faster than us.

I personally hate that business because I don't like advertising that much. But you grew your revenue way faster than us.

08:06

Well,

Well,

08:07

I think you did. Like, we if we were one year behind you, I think we were tracking one year behind. So the year we sold, I think we could have done eighteen or twenty million in revenue, which is around you or I think the same year. So we're like tracking perfectly, which is really interesting, but you went this horizontal route where you launched multiple multiple newsletters.

I think you did. Like, we if we were one year behind you, I think we were tracking one year behind. So the year we sold, I think we could have done eighteen or twenty million in revenue, which is around you or I think the same year. So we're like tracking perfectly, which is really interesting, but you went this horizontal route where you launched multiple multiple newsletters.

08:23

Which route do you like looking back? Look, I mean, it's tough to say we took the route the wrong route. But I also think it's what we had to do. Right? We didn't have the choice you had because our content was more general business. Right? You wrote with an edge, with a tone. You were targeting

Which route do you like looking back? Look, I mean, it's tough to say we took the route the wrong route. But I also think it's what we had to do. Right? We didn't have the choice you had because our content was more general business. Right? You wrote with an edge, with a tone. You were targeting

08:39

entrepreneurs or maybe like account executives who want to become entrepreneurs. And so you had way more opportunity

entrepreneurs or maybe like account executives who want to become entrepreneurs. And so you had way more opportunity

08:45

to launch a trends or to launch a hustle kind.

to launch a trends or to launch a hustle kind.

08:49

For us, we thought, you know, a general morning brew subscription wasn't gonna work. A general morning brew event wasn't gonna work the the tone wasn't specific enough, the the

For us, we thought, you know, a general morning brew subscription wasn't gonna work. A general morning brew event wasn't gonna work the the tone wasn't specific enough, the the

08:59

target customer wasn't specific enough. But we fell in love with this B2B business, which I know Both of you gotten a little bit of a Twitter shit when you, when you spoke about the V2View World and, you know, industry dive. But we, I fell in love with that business. And I'm like, wow. You can get in front of retail professionals and HR professionals, and we have them in our newsletter. And it was the craziest business where we'd launch a newsletter, and then we breakeven before we even hired the writers because we pre sell, you know, an advertiser, like, let's call it, like, a B2B SaaS company into one of these newsletters. And so I don't think there's better or worse. I think your our opportunity

target customer wasn't specific enough. But we fell in love with this B2B business, which I know Both of you gotten a little bit of a Twitter shit when you, when you spoke about the V2View World and, you know, industry dive. But we, I fell in love with that business. And I'm like, wow. You can get in front of retail professionals and HR professionals, and we have them in our newsletter. And it was the craziest business where we'd launch a newsletter, and then we breakeven before we even hired the writers because we pre sell, you know, an advertiser, like, let's call it, like, a B2B SaaS company into one of these newsletters. And so I don't think there's better or worse. I think your our opportunity

09:31

easier to get to a hundred million of revenue. Years was a bit easier to get, so it's called, like, a a billion dollar,

easier to get to a hundred million of revenue. Years was a bit easier to get, so it's called, like, a a billion dollar,

09:38

company. Right? Because you could have subscription, multi revenue stream much easier. It just was gonna take another, you know, eight to ten years. That's great. I'm happy I'm learning that now after I sold it.

company. Right? Because you could have subscription, multi revenue stream much easier. It just was gonna take another, you know, eight to ten years. That's great. I'm happy I'm learning that now after I sold it.

09:49

I'm happy I got to see it because I just got to copy both of your playbooks and do that do it for the milk road. Like, all three of us were able to win with the same playbook Mine was the easiest path of all because I could just text you guys and be like, hey, think about doing,

I'm happy I got to see it because I just got to copy both of your playbooks and do that do it for the milk road. Like, all three of us were able to win with the same playbook Mine was the easiest path of all because I could just text you guys and be like, hey, think about doing,

10:02

your thing, but for crypto,

your thing, but for crypto,

10:04

what do you think? It was like, yeah, I think it's gonna work. Let's do it. And did the playbook work perfectly, Sean, you think? I mean, it has so far. Right? We basically, in less than a year, we built the number one

what do you think? It was like, yeah, I think it's gonna work. Let's do it. And did the playbook work perfectly, Sean, you think? I mean, it has so far. Right? We basically, in less than a year, we built the number one

10:15

Like, the biggest daily crypto email,

Like, the biggest daily crypto email,

10:17

it's profitable.

it's profitable.

10:18

It's, you know, seven figures. It's, I don't know, like, it worked as well as one could expect bootstrapped it, you know, in our spare time. Like, that that's, like, as good as I could have expected that to go.

It's, you know, seven figures. It's, I don't know, like, it worked as well as one could expect bootstrapped it, you know, in our spare time. Like, that that's, like, as good as I could have expected that to go.

10:30

Dude, that's why these businesses are awesome because people don't realize that's why I always hate when people say if you're gonna start it over again, what would you do? I'm like, do the same thing. Like it works it consistently works. I know, Austin, you're way more like pessimistic. You got you're like, I'm pretty paranoid. You're way more paranoid. And I know you say like, oh, it can't work again. I'm like, no, man. I think I I think I think I can probably. You have, like, a framework around. You have, like, a lot of opinions around email newsletters. Give us that. And, put put us in context in milk road. Like, When I told you I was gonna do that or you saw I was gonna do that, what'd you think? And did that fit your framework for what you thought might work, or was that a maybe an outlier? What what what was it? Yeah. So it it perfectly fits the framework. And so I'm pessimistic on relaunching

Dude, that's why these businesses are awesome because people don't realize that's why I always hate when people say if you're gonna start it over again, what would you do? I'm like, do the same thing. Like it works it consistently works. I know, Austin, you're way more like pessimistic. You got you're like, I'm pretty paranoid. You're way more paranoid. And I know you say like, oh, it can't work again. I'm like, no, man. I think I I think I think I can probably. You have, like, a framework around. You have, like, a lot of opinions around email newsletters. Give us that. And, put put us in context in milk road. Like, When I told you I was gonna do that or you saw I was gonna do that, what'd you think? And did that fit your framework for what you thought might work, or was that a maybe an outlier? What what what was it? Yeah. So it it perfectly fits the framework. And so I'm pessimistic on relaunching

11:09

the next morning, Brew, a general business four million person email,

the next morning, Brew, a general business four million person email,

11:13

but, basically, I split up newsletters into three categories. And one are the editorial newsletters. Right? You have you your sub stackers, your your packing McCormix,

but, basically, I split up newsletters into three categories. And one are the editorial newsletters. Right? You have you your sub stackers, your your packing McCormix,

11:21

full newsletter, maybe two thousand words, maybe ten thousand. If you're some of these writers, that's like category one. Right? Category two is what we did. Aggregation. Right? And Sam and I kinda went more general. General business went for scale. And then,

full newsletter, maybe two thousand words, maybe ten thousand. If you're some of these writers, that's like category one. Right? Category two is what we did. Aggregation. Right? And Sam and I kinda went more general. General business went for scale. And then,

11:37

after that, you kind of have, like, the let's call it Morning Brewefer X. Right, where you you have still have that aggregation of summaries,

after that, you kind of have, like, the let's call it Morning Brewefer X. Right, where you you have still have that aggregation of summaries,

11:44

but you're more niche. Right? And maybe the tan is smaller, but you think because of your tone and because of the way you cover it, you can have a larger percent of that TAM reading your product, which Sean, I think is what you're doing. And the third is more of, like, your classic, hey, I'm gonna give you five links, your five bullet Friday, or things like that. I think the biggest opportunity

but you're more niche. Right? And maybe the tan is smaller, but you think because of your tone and because of the way you cover it, you can have a larger percent of that TAM reading your product, which Sean, I think is what you're doing. And the third is more of, like, your classic, hey, I'm gonna give you five links, your five bullet Friday, or things like that. I think the biggest opportunity

12:03

is, Sean, what you did, which is morning You find a growing industry and you just ride that tail wave and you just own that and build a brand, something really distinct in one of these, you know, niche. And if if X is finance or Xs,

is, Sean, what you did, which is morning You find a growing industry and you just ride that tail wave and you just own that and build a brand, something really distinct in one of these, you know, niche. And if if X is finance or Xs,

12:17

something that's b more b to b or, like, you know, a professional,

something that's b more b to b or, like, you know, a professional,

12:20

you know, something that's a job title.

you know, something that's a job title.

12:22

Then x works better than if x is, you know, fly fishing or

Then x works better than if x is, you know, fly fishing or

12:27

or or, you know, basketball or something like that.

or or, you know, basketball or something like that.

12:30

Yeah. So I think if you're gonna go consumer route, right, target consumers, it's gotta be high dollar. It's gotta be, you know, the newsletter for Ferrari owners. Or the the newsletter for Rolex owners, right, something where people spend, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on this. B2B is great as well. That's the other place I would go. And so you were kind of like, I called maybe pro summary. Right? That was the best of both worlds. You could hit on both worlds. You got the consumer oriented,

Yeah. So I think if you're gonna go consumer route, right, target consumers, it's gotta be high dollar. It's gotta be, you know, the newsletter for Ferrari owners. Or the the newsletter for Rolex owners, right, something where people spend, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on this. B2B is great as well. That's the other place I would go. And so you were kind of like, I called maybe pro summary. Right? That was the best of both worlds. You could hit on both worlds. You got the consumer oriented,

12:54

readers and then also the people who work in the crypto industry. Did you agree with our I know that I and we actually did or I'll say it myself. I did sound like a douche bag when I was talking about industry drive. I didn't mean to, like, phrase it that the way that I did. But when we were talking about industry drive, you know, they're a six hundred million dollar,

readers and then also the people who work in the crypto industry. Did you agree with our I know that I and we actually did or I'll say it myself. I did sound like a douche bag when I was talking about industry drive. I didn't mean to, like, phrase it that the way that I did. But when we were talking about industry drive, you know, they're a six hundred million dollar,

13:12

company that mostly is a newsletter business and our criticism towards the b to b industry was like the content's pretty whack. Do you agree with that,

company that mostly is a newsletter business and our criticism towards the b to b industry was like the content's pretty whack. Do you agree with that,

13:20

that assessment? Like, do you still think there's a lot of import opportunity to build really big b to b media companies?

that assessment? Like, do you still think there's a lot of import opportunity to build really big b to b media companies?

13:26

Yeah. I just think you have to know the way Sean did it. Right? Which is go the complete opposite route. Right? So they're they're pretty dry. They have a standardized process. They go in every single vertical. Look, I think their business model is simple, but it's not easy. I don't think what they did was easy at all, but I think it's very simple. The playbook is very well defined There's no crazy tech. They're not, you know, building some AI machine learning thing. It's they create great content. They resonate. They sell ads into it. But the way to compete, I think, is to treat b to b like consumer, right, to treat them like people, like, you know, the milk row does. Why is it not you're saying it's simple, but not easy. Why is it not what do you mean? It's not easy? I mean, I I think to scale across all those verticals, right, to your point, ad businesses are pretty tough. Right? And so you take on a lot of costs, and you can't you can't mess up. Right? Because if you you go wrong in verticals, you have a bunch of writers and salespeople and And the thing about media businesses, even when they're profitable, the difference between twenty percent,

Yeah. I just think you have to know the way Sean did it. Right? Which is go the complete opposite route. Right? So they're they're pretty dry. They have a standardized process. They go in every single vertical. Look, I think their business model is simple, but it's not easy. I don't think what they did was easy at all, but I think it's very simple. The playbook is very well defined There's no crazy tech. They're not, you know, building some AI machine learning thing. It's they create great content. They resonate. They sell ads into it. But the way to compete, I think, is to treat b to b like consumer, right, to treat them like people, like, you know, the milk row does. Why is it not you're saying it's simple, but not easy. Why is it not what do you mean? It's not easy? I mean, I I think to scale across all those verticals, right, to your point, ad businesses are pretty tough. Right? And so you take on a lot of costs, and you can't you can't mess up. Right? Because if you you go wrong in verticals, you have a bunch of writers and salespeople and And the thing about media businesses, even when they're profitable, the difference between twenty percent,

14:21

profit margins and losing twenty percent is way is is way that, like, it's easier to, to flip that, because of all your fixed costs. It's not SAS. You don't have locked in. You know, you're a B2B SaaS company. You have locked in a hundred or a hundred ten percent of your revenue the next year because of renewals.

profit margins and losing twenty percent is way is is way that, like, it's easier to, to flip that, because of all your fixed costs. It's not SAS. You don't have locked in. You know, you're a B2B SaaS company. You have locked in a hundred or a hundred ten percent of your revenue the next year because of renewals.

14:38

Every day with ads, it's another grant. You gotta go sell more ads. And so

Every day with ads, it's another grant. You gotta go sell more ads. And so

14:42

It's not easy. You know, the Adventist is an absolute grind.

It's not easy. You know, the Adventist is an absolute grind.

14:46

We found this guy.

We found this guy.

14:48

I'm gonna give him a shout out here. His name's don't know. I think he's you pronounce it, Volter.

I'm gonna give him a shout out here. His name's don't know. I think he's you pronounce it, Volter.

14:53

And he's from the Netherlands. And he, I think he's at school right

And he's from the Netherlands. And he, I think he's at school right

14:58

now, I don't know what happened, but I I did a video.

now, I don't know what happened, but I I did a video.

15:02

I thought, okay. Maybe maybe we'll start doing YouTube content. I did this video when Luna collapsed and I did this video. Like, oh, I lost a bunch of money on Luna, and I did this video. I thought it was gonna be, like, I remember that. I was like, Micah Viral, whatever. We came out late. We came out, like, three weeks after the news. So that was kinda stupid. So it didn't didn't go super viral, but one good thing came of it, which is this get this kid on Twitter was like, hey, your thumbnail sucks for for your YouTube thing. Like, it should be like this or like this or like this. He did this thread. And I was like, yo, you're great.

I thought, okay. Maybe maybe we'll start doing YouTube content. I did this video when Luna collapsed and I did this video. Like, oh, I lost a bunch of money on Luna, and I did this video. I thought it was gonna be, like, I remember that. I was like, Micah Viral, whatever. We came out late. We came out, like, three weeks after the news. So that was kinda stupid. So it didn't didn't go super viral, but one good thing came of it, which is this get this kid on Twitter was like, hey, your thumbnail sucks for for your YouTube thing. Like, it should be like this or like this or like this. He did this thread. And I was like, yo, you're great.

15:30

I don't know if I'm gonna do any more YouTube videos.

I don't know if I'm gonna do any more YouTube videos.

15:33

But, like, you wanna just come in our slack? Because I just well, I like what you just did. That was, like, helpful. And it was quick. And, like, you know, he's like, Yeah. I love to be amazing. I love the middle ground. And so he joins our Slack.

But, like, you wanna just come in our slack? Because I just well, I like what you just did. That was, like, helpful. And it was quick. And, like, you know, he's like, Yeah. I love to be amazing. I love the middle ground. And so he joins our Slack.

15:44

First, we're like, what do we do with this guy? Like,

First, we're like, what do we do with this guy? Like,

15:47

What the fuck is this guy? Like, I've actually, like, a two person meeting, and I just invite this third guy from the Netherlands to a meeting. You'd be like, like

What the fuck is this guy? Like, I've actually, like, a two person meeting, and I just invite this third guy from the Netherlands to a meeting. You'd be like, like

15:57

a I gotta talk. What's why is he here? And for two months, no one knew why he was there. But then something amazing happened. We were like, we need to sell ads, like, for the next month or whatever. And I was like, nobody wanted to do it. It was just like,

a I gotta talk. What's why is he here? And for two months, no one knew why he was there. But then something amazing happened. We were like, we need to sell ads, like, for the next month or whatever. And I was like, nobody wanted to do it. It was just like,

16:11

do we have to? Like, it's just gonna be a pain in the ass. Like This sucks. It just sucks to sell ads. Like, I wish to hire a sales guy. It's like, even hiring a sales guy is kind of a shitty task. Okay. Let's procrastinate a little bit.

do we have to? Like, it's just gonna be a pain in the ass. Like This sucks. It just sucks to sell ads. Like, I wish to hire a sales guy. It's like, even hiring a sales guy is kind of a shitty task. Okay. Let's procrastinate a little bit.

16:22

And,

And,

16:24

along the way, this guy had been wanting alright. This guy had been always just messaging us ideas. Like, because he's like, I don't know. He's, like, into Slack. So he's, like, try to be productive. So he would just non stop message ideas of things we could do.

along the way, this guy had been wanting alright. This guy had been always just messaging us ideas. Like, because he's like, I don't know. He's, like, into Slack. So he's, like, try to be productive. So he would just non stop message ideas of things we could do.

16:37

And,

And,

16:38

it got to the point where Ben was just sort of like, dude, dude, guys, like, you know, incessant. Like, he won't stop. Messaging. And it's like, yeah, it's at first, it's a good, but, like,

it got to the point where Ben was just sort of like, dude, dude, guys, like, you know, incessant. Like, he won't stop. Messaging. And it's like, yeah, it's at first, it's a good, but, like,

16:47

nobody can handle this volume of ideas. Like, this is crazy.

nobody can handle this volume of ideas. Like, this is crazy.

16:51

And then he's like, I he's like, you gotta do something about this. And I was like, okay. I'll I'll, I don't know, I'll talk to him or I'll kick him out of slack. And I was like, Hey, what if we just point the machine gun, like, outwards instead of, like, right now, the machine gun's shooting us with ideas. What if he just made him, like, sell the ads And he just bothered the hell out of everybody else.

And then he's like, I he's like, you gotta do something about this. And I was like, okay. I'll I'll, I don't know, I'll talk to him or I'll kick him out of slack. And I was like, Hey, what if we just point the machine gun, like, outwards instead of, like, right now, the machine gun's shooting us with ideas. What if he just made him, like, sell the ads And he just bothered the hell out of everybody else.

17:09

And so that's what we did. And this guy is the single handedly crushing

And so that's what we did. And this guy is the single handedly crushing

17:14

milk road ad sales through the crypto bear market. Like, we are fully sold out for months on end.

milk road ad sales through the crypto bear market. Like, we are fully sold out for months on end.

17:20

Just one guy. Just one kid who's not even twenty years old, just absolutely pillaging the market. And the advertisers will privately DM me and be like,

Just one guy. Just one kid who's not even twenty years old, just absolutely pillaging the market. And the advertisers will privately DM me and be like,

17:30

yo, I shared

yo, I shared

17:32

this guy's name with our sales team because I was like, this is how you sound. Like, this guy is relentless.

this guy's name with our sales team because I was like, this is how you sound. Like, this guy is relentless.

17:39

And I was like, Bob, that was was just like an incredible, I don't know, like, incredible thing. He is so impressive.

And I was like, Bob, that was was just like an incredible, I don't know, like, incredible thing. He is so impressive.

17:45

Dude, let's talk about that real quick. Add sales. Ad sales suck, Austin. They suck. And when I learned getting into the hustle, I I did you sell I sold our first ads. I think I got us I sold like the first maybe a hundred thousand dollars worth of ads. And then in order to scale, we had to hire a sales team, and they would show me, like, the conversations that they are gonna have. I'm like, there's this conversation will never work. Like, you're using all this jargon and you're wearing, like, these, like, buttoned up plaid shirts and, like, these brown leather shoes. Like, you guys look like dweeds. Like, this is never gonna work.

Dude, let's talk about that real quick. Add sales. Ad sales suck, Austin. They suck. And when I learned getting into the hustle, I I did you sell I sold our first ads. I think I got us I sold like the first maybe a hundred thousand dollars worth of ads. And then in order to scale, we had to hire a sales team, and they would show me, like, the conversations that they are gonna have. I'm like, there's this conversation will never work. Like, you're using all this jargon and you're wearing, like, these, like, buttoned up plaid shirts and, like, these brown leather shoes. Like, you guys look like dweeds. Like, this is never gonna work.

18:14

And it worked perfectly. You're like, nobody wants to go skateboarding with you right now.

And it worked perfectly. You're like, nobody wants to go skateboarding with you right now.

18:20

Yeah. You are not ready.

Yeah. You are not ready.

18:24

Dude.

Dude.

18:25

I was like, dude, you look like a you look like your name's Todd or Kyle. Like, this is not gonna work. And, it's like my name is Todd. It's fucking works.

I was like, dude, you look like a you look like your name's Todd or Kyle. Like, this is not gonna work. And, it's like my name is Todd. It's fucking works.

18:33

Yeah. Yeah. It it works perfectly. You're you're you're not cut out. Your person has not cut out for the the the media buying world.

Yeah. Yeah. It it works perfectly. You're you're you're not cut out. Your person has not cut out for the the the media buying world.

18:40

Did you do it? You're a well, no. So, yeah, in the early days, we bought. Right? But we we we sold all direct response ads. Right? It was Casper mattress. It was a way luggage. It was

Did you do it? You're a well, no. So, yeah, in the early days, we bought. Right? But we we we sold all direct response ads. Right? It was Casper mattress. It was a way luggage. It was

18:49

hey, buy buy your placement here, you're gonna get

hey, buy buy your placement here, you're gonna get

18:53

three hundred clicks and three percent of them convert, and you're gonna make a thousand dollars and we'll charge you eight hundred. As we've grown, though, I think there's another difference between us. We were in New York City, and it opened up this whole world that I had no idea about, which was the world of of media buying and these big ad agencies. And they have huge budgets. Right? We're not talking about a hundred grand from Casper, We're talking about five million dollars from the biggest brands in the entire world. And it really is a black box that people who aren't in it. And I think it's one of those things where it's a black box intentionally

three hundred clicks and three percent of them convert, and you're gonna make a thousand dollars and we'll charge you eight hundred. As we've grown, though, I think there's another difference between us. We were in New York City, and it opened up this whole world that I had no idea about, which was the world of of media buying and these big ad agencies. And they have huge budgets. Right? We're not talking about a hundred grand from Casper, We're talking about five million dollars from the biggest brands in the entire world. And it really is a black box that people who aren't in it. And I think it's one of those things where it's a black box intentionally

19:23

people can't get in, rec finances the same thing. Every year, there's new term within the ad industry or finance just to keep people on on the outside. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's, like, not based in logic or facts. It's based on relationships and, like, it's so weird. It's like, oh, wait. I have to realize that this person, this lady I I'm trying to get to buy ads. She just has to spend this twenty million dollars this quarter and she just wants to find somewhere to place it where she won't get fired. That was such a weird feeling.

people can't get in, rec finances the same thing. Every year, there's new term within the ad industry or finance just to keep people on on the outside. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's, like, not based in logic or facts. It's based on relationships and, like, it's so weird. It's like, oh, wait. I have to realize that this person, this lady I I'm trying to get to buy ads. She just has to spend this twenty million dollars this quarter and she just wants to find somewhere to place it where she won't get fired. That was such a weird feeling.

19:49

Yeah. I mean, the the idea of, like, media budgets. Right? Hey. They they if they if they don't use it, they lose it. And so you're incentivized to spend money. It's it's it's interesting. And It's, something that we learned, again, by hiring people in New York, which I think was a big difference between us and you. You had a a lower cost

Yeah. I mean, the the idea of, like, media budgets. Right? Hey. They they if they if they don't use it, they lose it. And so you're incentivized to spend money. It's it's it's interesting. And It's, something that we learned, again, by hiring people in New York, which I think was a big difference between us and you. You had a a lower cost

20:05

more, like, inside sales team, a really efficient one. Right? You took that route. We didn't take that route. We went for these big brand dollars. And and I think both routes work. It depends what you're you're looking to sell. We just took the route and say, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna dive right in this black box, and we're gonna learn all about it. And we're gonna get a million dial, I mean, one of our first advertisers discovered gave us a million bucks.

more, like, inside sales team, a really efficient one. Right? You took that route. We didn't take that route. We went for these big brand dollars. And and I think both routes work. It depends what you're you're looking to sell. We just took the route and say, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna dive right in this black box, and we're gonna learn all about it. And we're gonna get a million dial, I mean, one of our first advertisers discovered gave us a million bucks.

20:25

I was in college. I'm a senior in college, living in my frat house. Right? Like, beer cans everywhere. I get an email from the CMO of Discover. Like, here's an RFP. I'm like, what in the fuck is an RFP?

I was in college. I'm a senior in college, living in my frat house. Right? Like, beer cans everywhere. I get an email from the CMO of Discover. Like, here's an RFP. I'm like, what in the fuck is an RFP?

20:36

Like, what are you talking about? No clue. I open it up and it's like, Hey, give us media plans for, like, half a million a million bucks. Right? For a million dollars, she could've owned the company seven times over. The company was not worth a hundred grand. And here's this woman asking for a million dollar RFP. And we just we learned it, but it it really is a relationship driven game. What what are some how did you

Like, what are you talking about? No clue. I open it up and it's like, Hey, give us media plans for, like, half a million a million bucks. Right? For a million dollars, she could've owned the company seven times over. The company was not worth a hundred grand. And here's this woman asking for a million dollar RFP. And we just we learned it, but it it really is a relationship driven game. What what are some how did you

20:57

How did you justify that? Like, how do you, like, if if if AMX says we're gonna spend five million dollars this year,

How did you justify that? Like, how do you, like, if if if AMX says we're gonna spend five million dollars this year,

21:04

be real. Do you actually think that's gonna help them, like, sell more or shit?

be real. Do you actually think that's gonna help them, like, sell more or shit?

21:09

Yeah. So I I do. Right? We do a lot of brand lift studies and things like that. Right? It's Right? It's not we're not no one's trying to, you know, like, like Lexus, for example, or car company. And then Lexus doesn't expect you. How many brand new studies did you do?

Yeah. So I I do. Right? We do a lot of brand lift studies and things like that. Right? It's Right? It's not we're not no one's trying to, you know, like, like Lexus, for example, or car company. And then Lexus doesn't expect you. How many brand new studies did you do?

21:22

We used to do that, and I'd be like, what the fuck is a brand live study? Like, the I'm like, are you kidding me, Todd? What the hell is a brand live study? I don't know what the hell this is. We would do all this other stuff. Like, an RFP,

We used to do that, and I'd be like, what the fuck is a brand live study? Like, the I'm like, are you kidding me, Todd? What the hell is a brand live study? I don't know what the hell this is. We would do all this other stuff. Like, an RFP,

21:33

like, we had been doing it for, like, six months, and I was like, hey, guys, like, at this point, I'm a little bit too ask, but what the hell is it RFP?

like, we had been doing it for, like, six months, and I was like, hey, guys, like, at this point, I'm a little bit too ask, but what the hell is it RFP?

21:41

I don't know what this stuff means. I didn't know what any of this stuff. It's so challenging if you don't work in the industry, and then they, like, they talk about agent and I'm like, wait, what the hell is an agency? Why don't we just go straight to the brand? Like, this stuff from an from a small business owners perspective. All of this stuff is crazy inefficient and stupid. Now that I've been at a big company, HubSpot. I understand. I'm like, okay. I I get, like, these guys are having to, like, give out a billion dollars of marketing. Like, now I I understand a lot more, but when you're just a ten person company, you're like, do you guys realize this market study shit doesn't work? Like this brand study, that's bullshit. Right? Laura, like, you're gonna give me twenty thousand dollars to write this article. It took me like twenty minutes to do it.

I don't know what this stuff means. I didn't know what any of this stuff. It's so challenging if you don't work in the industry, and then they, like, they talk about agent and I'm like, wait, what the hell is an agency? Why don't we just go straight to the brand? Like, this stuff from an from a small business owners perspective. All of this stuff is crazy inefficient and stupid. Now that I've been at a big company, HubSpot. I understand. I'm like, okay. I I get, like, these guys are having to, like, give out a billion dollars of marketing. Like, now I I understand a lot more, but when you're just a ten person company, you're like, do you guys realize this market study shit doesn't work? Like this brand study, that's bullshit. Right? Laura, like, you're gonna give me twenty thousand dollars to write this article. It took me like twenty minutes to do it.

22:19

Like, so it doesn't make sense when you're small.

Like, so it doesn't make sense when you're small.

22:21

Yeah. But, you know, people are people are buying the audience. They're buying the their relationship with with you. They're not buying, you know, purchase or things like that. And so, you know, I I think at scale, when you get the four million subscribers, if you can change the perception

Yeah. But, you know, people are people are buying the audience. They're buying the their relationship with with you. They're not buying, you know, purchase or things like that. And so, you know, I I think at scale, when you get the four million subscribers, if you can change the perception

22:35

of

of

22:35

half a million or a million people and have make them because of a marketing campaign, have a, you know, ten percent of people have a higher perception of of

half a million or a million people and have make them because of a marketing campaign, have a, you know, ten percent of people have a higher perception of of

22:44

credit card x's programs. Like, that is really valuable when your visa or your mask or your American Express, and you spend a billion dollars. Like, that's much money. How do you deploy a billion dollars in marketing spend? You go through agencies, and that's how it all happens.

credit card x's programs. Like, that is really valuable when your visa or your mask or your American Express, and you spend a billion dollars. Like, that's much money. How do you deploy a billion dollars in marketing spend? You go through agencies, and that's how it all happens.

22:57

Sean and I are really good. I think at starting stuff. We we've got pretty good vision where we can spin things up and get them to like a million in revenue pretty quickly. The thing that I was always envious of you because it's my it's a it's a fairly big shortcoming, I think I have, is you are just so good at

Sean and I are really good. I think at starting stuff. We we've got pretty good vision where we can spin things up and get them to like a million in revenue pretty quickly. The thing that I was always envious of you because it's my it's a it's a fairly big shortcoming, I think I have, is you are just so good at

23:14

I don't know exactly how to explain it. You've got this, like, almost private equity like ability to, like, look at numbers and be like, oh, the margin here is shitty. And I'm like, I've never word margin in my life. But you'll, like, talk about, like, the margin here and, like, well, if you just change that by, like, ten percent, probably by doing this, your outcome is gonna be, like, this, this, and this, Like, you just have this really good operational ability.

I don't know exactly how to explain it. You've got this, like, almost private equity like ability to, like, look at numbers and be like, oh, the margin here is shitty. And I'm like, I've never word margin in my life. But you'll, like, talk about, like, the margin here and, like, well, if you just change that by, like, ten percent, probably by doing this, your outcome is gonna be, like, this, this, and this, Like, you just have this really good operational ability.

23:35

You're also really good at seeing, like, well, if you just improve this, this, and this, and only focus on that, then in six months, I think your outcome will be this. You're really good at that. And you are really good at that at a very young age. Did you figure out how to do that? How did you learn how to do that and and have that insight and have that ability? And also have that faith in like, well, if you just do this, this, and this, the outcome might be this, this, and this, in eight months. Yeah. I mean, so I got an undergraduate business degree, and I always used to shit on undergraduate business degrees. I'm like, what a complete waste of time? Like, those four years were so dumb. But as I look back, it really did give me,

You're also really good at seeing, like, well, if you just improve this, this, and this, and only focus on that, then in six months, I think your outcome will be this. You're really good at that. And you are really good at that at a very young age. Did you figure out how to do that? How did you learn how to do that and and have that insight and have that ability? And also have that faith in like, well, if you just do this, this, and this, the outcome might be this, this, and this, in eight months. Yeah. I mean, so I got an undergraduate business degree, and I always used to shit on undergraduate business degrees. I'm like, what a complete waste of time? Like, those four years were so dumb. But as I look back, it really did give me,

24:08

a pretty good overview of what it takes to to run a business, not actually the day to day of running a business, but, like, What is accounting? I took like seven accounting classes or, I don't know, maybe five. Those were actually really valuable. To be able to really dive deep into a P and L, to real and, and my summer spent in investment banking, to understand what's a financial model, what drives a model? Those things

a pretty good overview of what it takes to to run a business, not actually the day to day of running a business, but, like, What is accounting? I took like seven accounting classes or, I don't know, maybe five. Those were actually really valuable. To be able to really dive deep into a P and L, to real and, and my summer spent in investment banking, to understand what's a financial model, what drives a model? Those things

24:30

that within the context of finance, like, yeah. Yeah. They're okay. When the context of running a business was super helpful to understand what levers you need to pull,

that within the context of finance, like, yeah. Yeah. They're okay. When the context of running a business was super helpful to understand what levers you need to pull,

24:39

but the other the flip side is I looked at you three years ago, and I before we knew each other, maybe even two years ago, and I was like, both of you, I was like, I hate these guys because they're so good at going zero to one. They're so good at coming up with ideas. Like, I'm the opposite. Right? I I'm not an ideas guy. I can't come up with ideas. But I do think it is worth the ideas there. Cooler and sexier to do what we do. You know, listen, there's there's no doubt about that.

but the other the flip side is I looked at you three years ago, and I before we knew each other, maybe even two years ago, and I was like, both of you, I was like, I hate these guys because they're so good at going zero to one. They're so good at coming up with ideas. Like, I'm the opposite. Right? I I'm not an ideas guy. I can't come up with ideas. But I do think it is worth the ideas there. Cooler and sexier to do what we do. You know, listen, there's there's no doubt about that.

25:01

It is definitely

It is definitely

25:02

dude, what what would you I mean, you know, we all we need to, like, partner because zero to one is cool, but then, like, one to a hundred million a years is is pretty fucking cool too. Yeah. How about you guys take things? You get them off the ground. You take them to three employees and a million dollars of revenue, and I'll take them from one to a hundred. We can just pair up and just every I asked him about his margin, and he he thought I said margarine. He brought me some butter.

dude, what what would you I mean, you know, we all we need to, like, partner because zero to one is cool, but then, like, one to a hundred million a years is is pretty fucking cool too. Yeah. How about you guys take things? You get them off the ground. You take them to three employees and a million dollars of revenue, and I'll take them from one to a hundred. We can just pair up and just every I asked him about his margin, and he he thought I said margarine. He brought me some butter.

25:28

Dude, like, we like, I didn't understand all that. For all we know, for all we know, the the the hustle was either a billion dollar company, or worthless.

Dude, like, we like, I didn't understand all that. For all we know, for all we know, the the the hustle was either a billion dollar company, or worthless.

25:35

Sam just has no idea.

Sam just has no idea.

25:37

Yeah. Well, I, like, I remember,

Yeah. Well, I, like, I remember,

25:40

when we were negotiating to sell and, like, there was just all these things that people were giving me advice on. And I'm like, man, I just didn't even think about that. Like, it's just and I actually know a lot people that are really successful, like, we're talking billion dollars successful, and they know so little about operations.

when we were negotiating to sell and, like, there was just all these things that people were giving me advice on. And I'm like, man, I just didn't even think about that. Like, it's just and I actually know a lot people that are really successful, like, we're talking billion dollars successful, and they know so little about operations.

25:56

And there's a lot of people like that. Like who are just, they're good at hiring, like Richard Branson, I think he famously said, he's like, dude, I didn't know what a P and L was until we hit like hundreds of millions of revenue. Like, I didn't know how to read it. Sam, I think the three said the same thing, which is super cool.

And there's a lot of people like that. Like who are just, they're good at hiring, like Richard Branson, I think he famously said, he's like, dude, I didn't know what a P and L was until we hit like hundreds of millions of revenue. Like, I didn't know how to read it. Sam, I think the three said the same thing, which is super cool.

26:10

So, Austin, you what I like,

So, Austin, you what I like,

26:13

that you said on the operation side, like the Sam saying is,

that you said on the operation side, like the Sam saying is,

26:17

like, you when you were talking earlier, you're like, you know, right gross cell.

like, you when you were talking earlier, you're like, you know, right gross cell.

26:20

We wrote that on the wall, We woke up every day and said, right, gross sell. We had the great That's what I'm saying. He's so good at that. Those are the things that, like,

We wrote that on the wall, We woke up every day and said, right, gross sell. We had the great That's what I'm saying. He's so good at that. Those are the things that, like,

26:29

we I used to do this so such, like, similar, like, literally we had the wall, but not with milk road, actually, but this is, like, kinda my earlier startups.

we I used to do this so such, like, similar, like, literally we had the wall, but not with milk road, actually, but this is, like, kinda my earlier startups.

26:36

And, at monkey Afferno, I remember you probably remember this when people used to come in, like, we would always have, like, all this shit on the walls and, like, these sayings and these posters, like, indoctrination

And, at monkey Afferno, I remember you probably remember this when people used to come in, like, we would always have, like, all this shit on the walls and, like, these sayings and these posters, like, indoctrination

26:46

things. The indoctrination and and I will always felt like whenever I would meet founders, one of the highest predictors of success was do they even know what the main thing is? And it sounds like a stupid question.

things. The indoctrination and and I will always felt like whenever I would meet founders, one of the highest predictors of success was do they even know what the main thing is? And it sounds like a stupid question.

26:58

But for a lot of founders, they didn't really understand what the main thing was for their business. They didn't know their business's version of Rycroselle.

But for a lot of founders, they didn't really understand what the main thing was for their business. They didn't know their business's version of Rycroselle.

27:05

Okay. And even if they understood like that, that's gonna generically. Okay. What are you gonna do with that? They didn't understand to translate that into

Okay. And even if they understood like that, that's gonna generically. Okay. What are you gonna do with that? They didn't understand to translate that into

27:12

great wall of opens is the number we're gonna write down every day. We're gonna look at it. And if it's bad, we're gonna do something about it. And if it's good, we're gonna, like, double down on that. And that's what daily work is is around this one number. And so it was like,

great wall of opens is the number we're gonna write down every day. We're gonna look at it. And if it's bad, we're gonna do something about it. And if it's good, we're gonna, like, double down on that. And that's what daily work is is around this one number. And so it was like,

27:26

I remember we had these founders in in in the office and they would be like, I'd be like, alright. What's the, you know, how many do customers you guys get today? Like, what's the revenue? And they'd have to like, oh, yeah. Let me check. And they would, like, at first, they didn't have a dashboard. They're, like, going into the database. I'm like, you haven't ever built a easy way to know this number, and then that then finally they built that. And then they always had to check. And I was like, how do you not know? Why am I asking this question? Like, it's three PM.

I remember we had these founders in in in the office and they would be like, I'd be like, alright. What's the, you know, how many do customers you guys get today? Like, what's the revenue? And they'd have to like, oh, yeah. Let me check. And they would, like, at first, they didn't have a dashboard. They're, like, going into the database. I'm like, you haven't ever built a easy way to know this number, and then that then finally they built that. And then they always had to check. And I was like, how do you not know? Why am I asking this question? Like, it's three PM.

27:50

What if y'all two should have asked this question by three PM? Like, every day, this is crazy.

What if y'all two should have asked this question by three PM? Like, every day, this is crazy.

27:55

And they just didn't do it. And I was like, these guys are gonna fail because they don't keep the main thing, the main thing.

And they just didn't do it. And I was like, these guys are gonna fail because they don't keep the main thing, the main thing.

28:00

Is that something that you see or, like, did consciously? Like, where where did you get that? Because that wasn't obvious to be right out of college, but sounds like you got it right right away.

Is that something that you see or, like, did consciously? Like, where where did you get that? Because that wasn't obvious to be right out of college, but sounds like you got it right right away.

28:11

I can't find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

I can't find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

28:15

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application. Every team can stay aligned. No out of sync spreadsheets or dueling databases.

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application. Every team can stay aligned. No out of sync spreadsheets or dueling databases.

28:24

HubSpot grow better.

HubSpot grow better.

28:27

Yeah. That I mean, for us,

Yeah. That I mean, for us,

28:29

I and it's almost an insult. Right? We were we people are like, why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? Why didn't you go into video? We were too dumb to do that. Like, we had no we're like video. How the hell do you make a video? We can barely get our newsletter out. I mean, there were days where we'd we'd finish the newsletter, like two AM, we'd be coding the thing ourselves. And so I think it was partially, you know, a little bit of foresight, but also partially a forcing function.

I and it's almost an insult. Right? We were we people are like, why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? Why didn't you go into video? We were too dumb to do that. Like, we had no we're like video. How the hell do you make a video? We can barely get our newsletter out. I mean, there were days where we'd we'd finish the newsletter, like two AM, we'd be coding the thing ourselves. And so I think it was partially, you know, a little bit of foresight, but also partially a forcing function.

28:51

You know, we just looked at, we're like, if we do these things, we will get here. And we looked at the math, and we're like, everyone's telling us we're crazy. But if we grow subs, fifty thousand dollars, every or fifty thousand subscribers every single month, and our costs don't change.

You know, we just looked at, we're like, if we do these things, we will get here. And we looked at the math, and we're like, everyone's telling us we're crazy. But if we grow subs, fifty thousand dollars, every or fifty thousand subscribers every single month, and our costs don't change.

29:05

We're gonna go from fifty thousand monthly revenue to seventy five to a hundred to one twenty five. And by end of this year, we're gonna be at a million subs doing a million dollars of revenue a month. And I tell that to investors and people. They'd be, like, doesn't make any sense. I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I'm just looking at the Excel. And people couldn't I mean, we spoke to investors, and they were like, What do you mean your business only has a hundred thousand dollars of cost? I'm like, it's people, it's growth marketing, and it's in the SP. That's it. That's always spend money on. What was that last line? I don't even know what that last line is. Email. It's like Email service provider. Will you sail through? Oh, ESP. Yeah. Okay. I think I said I was like, SP. I said, what the hell be. Alright. Yeah. But if it's if it's one of those things where, like, it was just when you boil it down to numbers and run it in an Excel model, it's, like, it's so simple. And people, these investors were like, well, like, you're county for this and that. I'm like, it's all bullshit. Like, none of that means anything. I'm just trying to make money. Like, I'm just trying to make money. You also did some scrappy stuff. I remember, like,

We're gonna go from fifty thousand monthly revenue to seventy five to a hundred to one twenty five. And by end of this year, we're gonna be at a million subs doing a million dollars of revenue a month. And I tell that to investors and people. They'd be, like, doesn't make any sense. I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I'm just looking at the Excel. And people couldn't I mean, we spoke to investors, and they were like, What do you mean your business only has a hundred thousand dollars of cost? I'm like, it's people, it's growth marketing, and it's in the SP. That's it. That's always spend money on. What was that last line? I don't even know what that last line is. Email. It's like Email service provider. Will you sail through? Oh, ESP. Yeah. Okay. I think I said I was like, SP. I said, what the hell be. Alright. Yeah. But if it's if it's one of those things where, like, it was just when you boil it down to numbers and run it in an Excel model, it's, like, it's so simple. And people, these investors were like, well, like, you're county for this and that. I'm like, it's all bullshit. Like, none of that means anything. I'm just trying to make money. Like, I'm just trying to make money. You also did some scrappy stuff. I remember, like,

29:59

Didn't you get your first, I don't know, few thousand emails just by, like, standing in a classroom?

Didn't you get your first, I don't know, few thousand emails just by, like, standing in a classroom?

30:06

I think we may have made broken a couple of laws to get our first twelve thousand. People would walk out and you'd have a piece of paper and be like, hey, just write your email. No.

I think we may have made broken a couple of laws to get our first twelve thousand. People would walk out and you'd have a piece of paper and be like, hey, just write your email. No.

30:14

We we we wouldn't let him walk out. So we go in the beginning of a lecture. These econ one zero one lectures, like a thousand people. And I hate in publics. I still do, but I hated public speaking. And I was like, look, if I'm going to this lecture hall, and I'm gonna talk in front of a thousand people, I better get every damn email. And so what I would do is I'd speak in front of these people, that I walk around. You'd like, the teacher would let you speak, or you would just stand up and speak? No. No. The teacher would let us speak because there's there's this thing called Michigan times. You actually had ten minutes in between each class. So if the class start at ten, it actually start at ten ten. And so at ten zero five, I get up there, I pitch on pitch them on morning brew, and then I basically print out Excel document. And I'd walk around. I would just stand in front of people and just stare them in the eyes until they gave me their email. And I'd sit in the back of the class and type every email in I'd be like, shit, Alex. Is that an a or a c or an e? He'd be like, who cares? Put them all in. And we'd chat, like, every, like, six permutations

We we we wouldn't let him walk out. So we go in the beginning of a lecture. These econ one zero one lectures, like a thousand people. And I hate in publics. I still do, but I hated public speaking. And I was like, look, if I'm going to this lecture hall, and I'm gonna talk in front of a thousand people, I better get every damn email. And so what I would do is I'd speak in front of these people, that I walk around. You'd like, the teacher would let you speak, or you would just stand up and speak? No. No. The teacher would let us speak because there's there's this thing called Michigan times. You actually had ten minutes in between each class. So if the class start at ten, it actually start at ten ten. And so at ten zero five, I get up there, I pitch on pitch them on morning brew, and then I basically print out Excel document. And I'd walk around. I would just stand in front of people and just stare them in the eyes until they gave me their email. And I'd sit in the back of the class and type every email in I'd be like, shit, Alex. Is that an a or a c or an e? He'd be like, who cares? Put them all in. And we'd chat, like, every, like, six permutations

31:08

of every single email. And that's how we got to, like, ten or fifteen thousand at Michigan. And then we're like,

of every single email. And that's how we got to, like, ten or fifteen thousand at Michigan. And then we're like,

31:14

do you have a friend at Penn State? I have a friend at Penn State. Let's do this at Penn's thing. Let's do it at Miami. Let's do it at NYU. And next thing you know, you're like fifty thousand people across the the country, college students. Reading morning, bro. Are your parents wealthy? Did you grow up wealthy?

do you have a friend at Penn State? I have a friend at Penn State. Let's do this at Penn's thing. Let's do it at Miami. Let's do it at NYU. And next thing you know, you're like fifty thousand people across the the country, college students. Reading morning, bro. Are your parents wealthy? Did you grow up wealthy?

31:29

I'd say middle class, upper middle class, But what's interesting, so I grew up in the suburbs of Baltimore.

I'd say middle class, upper middle class, But what's interesting, so I grew up in the suburbs of Baltimore.

31:35

And,

And,

31:36

like, I didn't know. I thought I knew wealth, and then I moved to I went to Michigan, and I met people from LA in New York. And I moved to New York, and I saw a bill from New York, and I never saw that kind of wealth. And to me, that was inspiring. That was exciting.

like, I didn't know. I thought I knew wealth, and then I moved to I went to Michigan, and I met people from LA in New York. And I moved to New York, and I saw a bill from New York, and I never saw that kind of wealth. And to me, that was inspiring. That was exciting.

31:49

Because I came from again. There's, like, a very well off. I had everything I needed. But, you know, I know people I met people at school who were flying private planes. I know what private plane was. You got rich pretty young. Right? Like, when do you guys sell? You're you're pretty young right now. I think you guys sold at, what, twenty six or something? Yeah. I think twenty five. The reason hold on real quick. The reason I asked was because, like, you've got this, like, this immigrant hustle. And before I knew you, I stereotyped you as this, like,

Because I came from again. There's, like, a very well off. I had everything I needed. But, you know, I know people I met people at school who were flying private planes. I know what private plane was. You got rich pretty young. Right? Like, when do you guys sell? You're you're pretty young right now. I think you guys sold at, what, twenty six or something? Yeah. I think twenty five. The reason hold on real quick. The reason I asked was because, like, you've got this, like, this immigrant hustle. And before I knew you, I stereotyped you as this, like,

32:15

everything's been given to this rich kid, like, and and and hearing this story. I'm like, oh, no. These guys were, like, just as gritty as I was for sure, sometimes more.

everything's been given to this rich kid, like, and and and hearing this story. I'm like, oh, no. These guys were, like, just as gritty as I was for sure, sometimes more.

32:25

Yeah. I mean, Alex has his own story about, you know, his family and and his dad passed away. And so he was I mean, I learned so much from Alex about hunger. Like, Alex, again, he broke things down the same way I did. Alex would be like, Hey, you know,

Yeah. I mean, Alex has his own story about, you know, his family and and his dad passed away. And so he was I mean, I learned so much from Alex about hunger. Like, Alex, again, he broke things down the same way I did. Alex would be like, Hey, you know,

32:38

I'd be like, Alex. We need a hundred advertisers.

I'd be like, Alex. We need a hundred advertisers.

32:40

This year. I'd be like, I don't know how we're gonna do it. We have zero. He goes, I know exactly how to do it. I'm gonna go in LinkedIn, and I'm not gonna sleep until I message a thousand companies. We'll get a ten percent reply rate. I'll be like, you're gonna message a thousand companies. He's like, well, isn't that what you need to do to get to a hundred, hundred advertisers?

This year. I'd be like, I don't know how we're gonna do it. We have zero. He goes, I know exactly how to do it. I'm gonna go in LinkedIn, and I'm not gonna sleep until I message a thousand companies. We'll get a ten percent reply rate. I'll be like, you're gonna message a thousand companies. He's like, well, isn't that what you need to do to get to a hundred, hundred advertisers?

32:57

I'd be like, yeah, but that sounds crazy. He goes, well, let's start working. And we just, like, you know, sit there, drink beer and we work and just, you know, crank out pull DMs, the head of I mean, must know the head of growth at every New York City direct to consumer company, because Alex incessantly emailed them. And we would, like, we would laugh at the response, like, we would get excited when someone respond to be like, Hey, Alex. This is your ninth email. Like, you gotta stop following up. Like, number eight was good, but nine, you you passed it. So, yeah, I think we both had that hustle. What did it feel like to back to back to what Sean was saying? You're twenty five and you don't know how much were you made, but let's just say eight figures.

I'd be like, yeah, but that sounds crazy. He goes, well, let's start working. And we just, like, you know, sit there, drink beer and we work and just, you know, crank out pull DMs, the head of I mean, must know the head of growth at every New York City direct to consumer company, because Alex incessantly emailed them. And we would, like, we would laugh at the response, like, we would get excited when someone respond to be like, Hey, Alex. This is your ninth email. Like, you gotta stop following up. Like, number eight was good, but nine, you you passed it. So, yeah, I think we both had that hustle. What did it feel like to back to back to what Sean was saying? You're twenty five and you don't know how much were you made, but let's just say eight figures.

33:33

What's that feel like when you're twenty five?

What's that feel like when you're twenty five?

33:37

Fucking dope.

Fucking dope.

33:38

Yeah. I mean, so it was it was very cool because it's great.

Yeah. I mean, so it was it was very cool because it's great.

33:44

So so it's so it it's interesting. Right?

So so it's so it it's interesting. Right?

33:47

I I got the wire.

I I got the wire.

33:49

It says, what, the the sum of money. I was it was during COVID. So I get this, like, listen to this juxtaposition. On one hand,

It says, what, the the sum of money. I was it was during COVID. So I get this, like, listen to this juxtaposition. On one hand,

33:56

I just made a boatload of money, more money than, you know, I thought I'd ever make. Right?

I just made a boatload of money, more money than, you know, I thought I'd ever make. Right?

34:02

On the other hand, I'm living in my childhood bedroom.

On the other hand, I'm living in my childhood bedroom.

34:05

Sitting next to my parents as the wire hits my account. And Everett's like, what are you gonna do now? I was like, I don't know if my mom's looking like meatloaf. Yeah. Like, tell your mom. Mom make me breakfast.

Sitting next to my parents as the wire hits my account. And Everett's like, what are you gonna do now? I was like, I don't know if my mom's looking like meatloaf. Yeah. Like, tell your mom. Mom make me breakfast.

34:17

Yeah. It was the most anti climactic thing ever. It was unbelievably

Yeah. It was the most anti climactic thing ever. It was unbelievably

34:22

encyclamantic.

encyclamantic.

34:23

You should've just moved into the master bedroom.

You should've just moved into the master bedroom.

34:28

It's like, move on. We're moving down. This is just mine.

It's like, move on. We're moving down. This is just mine.

34:34

No. But I I think, look, I I I think,

No. But I I think, look, I I I think,

34:37

getting a quick win early in or a win early in life is so important. Right? Just having that swagger, that confidence,

getting a quick win early in or a win early in life is so important. Right? Just having that swagger, that confidence,

34:43

that brand allows me to do so much that I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. But

that brand allows me to do so much that I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. But

34:49

get into any room. I can get in touch with anyone. Right? One of the opportunities you think you get? I mean, again, like,

get into any room. I can get in touch with anyone. Right? One of the opportunities you think you get? I mean, again, like,

34:56

get into any room. Right? So meetings,

get into any room. Right? So meetings,

34:59

investing.

investing.

35:01

What are what are some cool rooms you got into? I I mean, again, like, it's the same things that I think you guys are you you guys also have a witness. Right? I don't think anything is Is that Well, I don't like to leave my house. And then Sam's only interested in, like, people that are, like, this guy's the best axe thrower in, you know, the country. And he's, like, super pumped about it. I'm like, I don't think you needed to, like, you know, pull your your, you know, rich guy card to get in touch with him. But I feel like you don't know. Like, like, have you met Leo Dicaprio? I feel like he might have just bumped into Leo Dicaprio somewhere. That I feel like that's more your five in New York. Well, so So I I bumped into Justin Bieber in the Bahamas,

What are what are some cool rooms you got into? I I mean, again, like, it's the same things that I think you guys are you you guys also have a witness. Right? I don't think anything is Is that Well, I don't like to leave my house. And then Sam's only interested in, like, people that are, like, this guy's the best axe thrower in, you know, the country. And he's, like, super pumped about it. I'm like, I don't think you needed to, like, you know, pull your your, you know, rich guy card to get in touch with him. But I feel like you don't know. Like, like, have you met Leo Dicaprio? I feel like he might have just bumped into Leo Dicaprio somewhere. That I feel like that's more your five in New York. Well, so So I I bumped into Justin Bieber in the Bahamas,

35:36

which was pretty cool.

which was pretty cool.

35:38

But, no, I mean, like, the weekend we had with with,

But, no, I mean, like, the weekend we had with with,

35:41

what's his name? Mister Beast and and,

what's his name? Mister Beast and and,

35:44

Austin was cool. I spent a weekend with kid rock on his ranch. Yeah. Tell me about that. That was pretty sick. What was that like?

Austin was cool. I spent a weekend with kid rock on his ranch. Yeah. Tell me about that. That was pretty sick. What was that like?

35:51

I mean, he is a, a unique, unique character. Again, this is awkward to him. So I, I mean, I've in fact checked this, but I'll assume he's telling the truth. He told me he's the only person

I mean, he is a, a unique, unique character. Again, this is awkward to him. So I, I mean, I've in fact checked this, but I'll assume he's telling the truth. He told me he's the only person

36:00

to play at both president Obama and president Trump's inaugurations.

to play at both president Obama and president Trump's inaugurations.

36:04

He played it both. And he knows both super well. He's close to both. And he has this

He played it both. And he knows both super well. He's close to both. And he has this

36:10

this. He lives in this huge ranch outside of Nashville. Right? I went there.

this. He lives in this huge ranch outside of Nashville. Right? I went there.

36:13

It was my friend, his name's Shane.

It was my friend, his name's Shane.

36:16

He works in tech. He's good friends with kid rock. Kid rock, obviously, music guy, and Shane put together ten people in tech, kid rock, ten people in music. We go to his ranch,

He works in tech. He's good friends with kid rock. Kid rock, obviously, music guy, and Shane put together ten people in tech, kid rock, ten people in music. We go to his ranch,

36:27

And, I mean, you get there and it's, like, out of a movie. Right? You walk in and kid rock's bats is to me. He's got a cigar sticking out of his mouth he's got a shotgun, and he's just shooting clay pigeons.

And, I mean, you get there and it's, like, out of a movie. Right? You walk in and kid rock's bats is to me. He's got a cigar sticking out of his mouth he's got a shotgun, and he's just shooting clay pigeons.

36:38

And the whole weekend was out of a movie, right, his studio, unbelievable.

And the whole weekend was out of a movie, right, his studio, unbelievable.

36:43

We pulled no lighter together, just telling stories M and M.

We pulled no lighter together, just telling stories M and M.

36:46

I mean, he's, is really, really cool. He's, a lot of people don't realize this, but kid rock got famous right before CDs went down. And He's one of the best selling artists of all time. And I I it wouldn't surprise me if he's probably worth two or three hundred million dollars because he was famous when CDs were eighteen and twenty one dollars. And so, like, it's wild. Yeah. So so now though, I think he's a new source of wealth. So he owns,

I mean, he's, is really, really cool. He's, a lot of people don't realize this, but kid rock got famous right before CDs went down. And He's one of the best selling artists of all time. And I I it wouldn't surprise me if he's probably worth two or three hundred million dollars because he was famous when CDs were eighteen and twenty one dollars. And so, like, it's wild. Yeah. So so now though, I think he's a new source of wealth. So he owns,

37:09

again, this is what I I've been told. He owns the most popular bar in all of Nashville.

again, this is what I I've been told. He owns the most popular bar in all of Nashville.

37:14

And whereas most of the other ones, like Luke Bryant has one and a bunch of other country singers, they just license their name to the bar. Right? And they make a couple percent. I think Ken Rock's like a fifty fifty owner. Probably makes two million bucks a month.

And whereas most of the other ones, like Luke Bryant has one and a bunch of other country singers, they just license their name to the bar. Right? And they make a couple percent. I think Ken Rock's like a fifty fifty owner. Probably makes two million bucks a month.

37:27

No. I've heard more. Really? I heard like it's approaching

No. I've heard more. Really? I heard like it's approaching

37:30

I've heard. Again, I don't know if this is true. I've heard it's big, big money, you know, high, high,

I've heard. Again, I don't know if this is true. I've heard it's big, big money, you know, high, high,

37:35

tens of millions. You know, it's just crazy. Dude, the one of the best things,

tens of millions. You know, it's just crazy. Dude, the one of the best things,

37:41

about our companies and,

about our companies and,

37:43

like, the culture that us three have kinda built with our friends because we kind of like got into this media game a little bit early,

like, the culture that us three have kinda built with our friends because we kind of like got into this media game a little bit early,

37:50

and I don't know about you Austin, but when the hustle was starting,

and I don't know about you Austin, but when the hustle was starting,

37:54

There wasn't that many people who we could look at and be like, well, let's just do what they do, but different. There like, I remember I told this one media guy who I'll tell you afterwards, he's the founder of a multi billion dollar media company now. It's like, here's what I'm doing. He goes, bro, this will never make more than two million dollars a year in revenue. And this other person who I who I'm now good friends with was like, dude, what are you talking about? This I'm like, it didn't matter. It's just a small screen. Who cares? Like, if if you're an email or on a website, it doesn't matter. The math shows x, y, and z.

There wasn't that many people who we could look at and be like, well, let's just do what they do, but different. There like, I remember I told this one media guy who I'll tell you afterwards, he's the founder of a multi billion dollar media company now. It's like, here's what I'm doing. He goes, bro, this will never make more than two million dollars a year in revenue. And this other person who I who I'm now good friends with was like, dude, what are you talking about? This I'm like, it didn't matter. It's just a small screen. Who cares? Like, if if you're an email or on a website, it doesn't matter. The math shows x, y, and z.

38:19

And so we had to hire, like, twenty four year olds who, like, were promising, but, like, and then we had to learn about it as we grew. And be but because of that, both morning brewed, the hustle, and the and the crew that now I mean, Sean's great at this as well. We've we've done a really cool job of, like, finding smart inexperienced people who now have gone on to do a lot of really cool stuff. And that makes me really, really proud to, like, see, like, this crew that we've all built. And so there's, like, the hustle crew, the morning crew,

And so we had to hire, like, twenty four year olds who, like, were promising, but, like, and then we had to learn about it as we grew. And be but because of that, both morning brewed, the hustle, and the and the crew that now I mean, Sean's great at this as well. We've we've done a really cool job of, like, finding smart inexperienced people who now have gone on to do a lot of really cool stuff. And that makes me really, really proud to, like, see, like, this crew that we've all built. And so there's, like, the hustle crew, the morning crew,

38:45

And then,

And then,

38:47

Sean was, like, the hustle thing. Now he's got his own thing. Have you noticed that, like, we all have this little, like,

Sean was, like, the hustle thing. Now he's got his own thing. Have you noticed that, like, we all have this little, like,

38:54

army of people who have, like, been through, like, this, like, self created, like, training camp. It's kinda neat. Right?

army of people who have, like, been through, like, this, like, self created, like, training camp. It's kinda neat. Right?

39:00

Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, it's it's we in the early days, we could not get people to work with us who didn't wanna be entrepreneurs. And the pitch was simply like, Hey, we're starting a business. You'll be in on the ground floor. Right? You'll see what it's like. And that's that's all you get. Like, you know, we didn't have for the first year and a half, I mean, I was so cheap. For the first year and a half of Morning Brew, you didn't get a company computer. You had to bring your own computer to work. Dude, I was famous because on Facebook, I Hey, I'm buying I'm buying laptops. Does anyone have a max for sale for five hundred dollars?

Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, it's it's we in the early days, we could not get people to work with us who didn't wanna be entrepreneurs. And the pitch was simply like, Hey, we're starting a business. You'll be in on the ground floor. Right? You'll see what it's like. And that's that's all you get. Like, you know, we didn't have for the first year and a half, I mean, I was so cheap. For the first year and a half of Morning Brew, you didn't get a company computer. You had to bring your own computer to work. Dude, I was famous because on Facebook, I Hey, I'm buying I'm buying laptops. Does anyone have a max for sale for five hundred dollars?

39:31

No. Did we were not dropping any money on company theater? We didn't have health care, In the early days, you got nothing. You got I mean, and we we we we couldn't afford it because I was so against taking venture capital. I was like, we're gonna make every penny count

No. Did we were not dropping any money on company theater? We didn't have health care, In the early days, you got nothing. You got I mean, and we we we we couldn't afford it because I was so against taking venture capital. I was like, we're gonna make every penny count

39:44

One more story, Friday's at three o'clock, we'd all go pencils down, work with stock because we had a referral program. We'd send out stickers and t shirts to that whole thing that you know, I'm sure we've all seen.

One more story, Friday's at three o'clock, we'd all go pencils down, work with stock because we had a referral program. We'd send out stickers and t shirts to that whole thing that you know, I'm sure we've all seen.

39:55

But You had a packing? We had no we had no packing.

But You had a packing? We had no we had no packing.

39:58

And so we'd sit down. We'd like wheel in that we were keg into our office and we conveyor, you know, we we do, like, assembly line. The first person would would, like, open the envelope. The next person would stick the sticker in there. The next person would lick them. The next person would put the the the label on. And for like three or four hours from like three pm till seven pm of Fridays, that's all we do. We just pack envelopes of shit. Well, your one of your early guys Tyler Dank has gone on to start Beyhive, which is a really cool company. He he's in, like, a really good entrepreneur. He's pivoting or, iterating really quickly. And then I've got a couple people who have done that. And then, like, it's it's just cool to see, like, these people who are young and not dumb, but, like, this young and, like, inexperience

And so we'd sit down. We'd like wheel in that we were keg into our office and we conveyor, you know, we we do, like, assembly line. The first person would would, like, open the envelope. The next person would stick the sticker in there. The next person would lick them. The next person would put the the the label on. And for like three or four hours from like three pm till seven pm of Fridays, that's all we do. We just pack envelopes of shit. Well, your one of your early guys Tyler Dank has gone on to start Beyhive, which is a really cool company. He he's in, like, a really good entrepreneur. He's pivoting or, iterating really quickly. And then I've got a couple people who have done that. And then, like, it's it's just cool to see, like, these people who are young and not dumb, but, like, this young and, like, inexperience

40:38

go on to, like, build cool shit. And then, like, your ex people are now at other newsletter companies. And then Sean has hired a couple of my ex people or in probably, it seems like a couple of your ex people. And it's like this incestuous

go on to, like, build cool shit. And then, like, your ex people are now at other newsletter companies. And then Sean has hired a couple of my ex people or in probably, it seems like a couple of your ex people. And it's like this incestuous

40:50

thing, which at first I would be jealous. I'm like, woah, what the hell? Why working with this person. But now I'm like, oh, this is awesome, man. Like, we've created this, like, tiny little industry of of newsletter nerds, and it's actually quite cool.

thing, which at first I would be jealous. I'm like, woah, what the hell? Why working with this person. But now I'm like, oh, this is awesome, man. Like, we've created this, like, tiny little industry of of newsletter nerds, and it's actually quite cool.

41:03

Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I I think it's really cool. And I think there's gonna be so much more value create. I think what Tyler's doing at Behive is amazing. I think what I've been so impressed with him is like that the maturation from the morning brew days of, you know, it's like six of us, and he's a little bit of everything. So the way he's able to scale himself and scale that team is amazing. And so it's real and trunks the same way. Like, what trunks done is incredible. And there's, I mean, there's a ton of examples, and it's really cool to see. Do you regret selling?

Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I I think it's really cool. And I think there's gonna be so much more value create. I think what Tyler's doing at Behive is amazing. I think what I've been so impressed with him is like that the maturation from the morning brew days of, you know, it's like six of us, and he's a little bit of everything. So the way he's able to scale himself and scale that team is amazing. And so it's real and trunks the same way. Like, what trunks done is incredible. And there's, I mean, there's a ton of examples, and it's really cool to see. Do you regret selling?

41:29

No.

No.

41:31

That's that's you answered that quickly. Even though, like Not even a little bit. So you sold part of the business what do you think the the entire business is gonna sell for in the future?

That's that's you answered that quickly. Even though, like Not even a little bit. So you sold part of the business what do you think the the entire business is gonna sell for in the future?

41:41

Hundreds of millions?

Hundreds of millions?

41:42

I think many multiples of what we sold the first

I think many multiples of what we sold the first

41:45

half for. But we structured the deal in a way that I thought was great. Right? I mean, the ability to have life changing money anyone has the option, like, I always think it's good to take half your chips off the table. Right? And maybe I'm biased because I did that and and it's worked. I thought that was really important, but I still have enough upside where I'm excited. Right? It's it's not like a a tiny earnout that people sign where it's, like, ten percent of the deal. It can, you know, it can be really, really meaningful. And that drives me. That keeps me excited. It keeps me on the hunt.

half for. But we structured the deal in a way that I thought was great. Right? I mean, the ability to have life changing money anyone has the option, like, I always think it's good to take half your chips off the table. Right? And maybe I'm biased because I did that and and it's worked. I thought that was really important, but I still have enough upside where I'm excited. Right? It's it's not like a a tiny earnout that people sign where it's, like, ten percent of the deal. It can, you know, it can be really, really meaningful. And that drives me. That keeps me excited. It keeps me on the hunt.

42:13

I love the company. I love the people we work with. I love the executive team, but I would I I mean, during COVID or during I I mean, I wouldn't have slept at night. And I just I sleep very well at night knowing that, like, I have my my nest egg. And so what'd you do with money? Did you think cool with it? Or do you,

I love the company. I love the people we work with. I love the executive team, but I would I I mean, during COVID or during I I mean, I wouldn't have slept at night. And I just I sleep very well at night knowing that, like, I have my my nest egg. And so what'd you do with money? Did you think cool with it? Or do you,

42:29

did you touch it right away? That money hits the bank, you're at your parents house.

did you touch it right away? That money hits the bank, you're at your parents house.

42:33

What it what happened to that money over the next? I don't know how long it's been, like, a year or two.

What it what happened to that money over the next? I don't know how long it's been, like, a year or two.

42:38

Yeah. So I haven't

Yeah. So I haven't

42:39

I'd say in terms of everyone's, like, oh, yeah. I did, like, make a splurge purchase. There was nothing out there that I was that excited about buying. So I ended up buying a car which expensive. I didn't buy, like, a a Mercedes. I bought an Acura. Right? Nothing crazy. I dyed my order. Right?

I'd say in terms of everyone's, like, oh, yeah. I did, like, make a splurge purchase. There was nothing out there that I was that excited about buying. So I ended up buying a car which expensive. I didn't buy, like, a a Mercedes. I bought an Acura. Right? Nothing crazy. I dyed my order. Right?

42:54

Yeah. Of course.

Yeah. Of course.

42:56

Yeah. Pre owned Acura. My dad just No. It wasn't pre owned, brand new. Twenty twenty two. Sportsville. Sports edition, Atec, Atec. Air conditioning. That's air conditioning.

Yeah. Pre owned Acura. My dad just No. It wasn't pre owned, brand new. Twenty twenty two. Sportsville. Sports edition, Atec, Atec. Air conditioning. That's air conditioning.

43:08

What lie? Dude, you really do have that immigrant mentality, man. I we need to get you on, like, a twenty three and meet test. I I feel like, there's something going on here. You got too much immigrant energy. I love it.

What lie? Dude, you really do have that immigrant mentality, man. I we need to get you on, like, a twenty three and meet test. I I feel like, there's something going on here. You got too much immigrant energy. I love it.

43:19

No. But I, I mean, I I I increased my rent four to five times. Right? I live in a great apartment.

No. But I, I mean, I I I increased my rent four to five times. Right? I live in a great apartment.

43:26

I went on an amazing vacation last summer.

I went on an amazing vacation last summer.

43:30

You know, I I actually love I know you guys know Ramit's, Stacy or Stephanie. I'm not sure I pronounced the last name. But, like, that idea of, like, your rich life and spending

You know, I I actually love I know you guys know Ramit's, Stacy or Stephanie. I'm not sure I pronounced the last name. But, like, that idea of, like, your rich life and spending

43:39

on because, I mean,

on because, I mean,

43:41

lifestyle freedom is real. Totally. That is real. And so, like, look, I spend money on the things that I find interesting and that I like, and I love traveling and staying at really nice hotels and spending a ton of money on business class flights and things like that. I like living a nice apartment.

lifestyle freedom is real. Totally. That is real. And so, like, look, I spend money on the things that I find interesting and that I like, and I love traveling and staying at really nice hotels and spending a ton of money on business class flights and things like that. I like living a nice apartment.

43:56

But, like, I live in New York City. What am I gonna do dropping another fifty k on a car that sits in a parking lot? Three hundred and sixty one days a year. It's a complete waste of money. It's just stupid. And,

But, like, I live in New York City. What am I gonna do dropping another fifty k on a car that sits in a parking lot? Three hundred and sixty one days a year. It's a complete waste of money. It's just stupid. And,

44:07

you know, I Morgan Hessel actually tweeted this

you know, I Morgan Hessel actually tweeted this

44:10

and I read this too, and will Smith's book. He has a great quote.

and I read this too, and will Smith's book. He has a great quote.

44:14

He was talking about fame and becoming famous. And the quote was something like,

He was talking about fame and becoming famous. And the quote was something like,

44:19

becoming famous

becoming famous

44:21

is awesome.

is awesome.

44:23

Being famous is cool and losing any fame is horrible. And I feel

Being famous is cool and losing any fame is horrible. And I feel

44:28

same exact way about money. Right? I feel the same way. And so I have no desire to, like, spend money on things I don't actually care about. I don't wanna, I don't wanna lose my money because I can, you know, change the a to a, you know, an m or whatever on a Mercedes. So I spend money that I, on things I actually care about so I can make sure I maintain my wealth. So what do you invest in? Or do you just, are you conservative? Are you aggressive? Like, what's the pie chart of, like, of the hundred percent? Where did where did the money go?

same exact way about money. Right? I feel the same way. And so I have no desire to, like, spend money on things I don't actually care about. I don't wanna, I don't wanna lose my money because I can, you know, change the a to a, you know, an m or whatever on a Mercedes. So I spend money that I, on things I actually care about so I can make sure I maintain my wealth. So what do you invest in? Or do you just, are you conservative? Are you aggressive? Like, what's the pie chart of, like, of the hundred percent? Where did where did the money go?

44:55

Yeah. So I probably took, like, eighty five, ninety percent of it and put it into

Yeah. So I probably took, like, eighty five, ninety percent of it and put it into

45:00

very, very boring stuff. Right? S and P five hundred or or Vanguard, like, Target date funds, like, nine, twenty, sixty five or something like that. You did this yourself or you hired, like, a Well, per se. No. I I hired a team. It's a good thing I did, because if not, I would've went off the rails. Right?

very, very boring stuff. Right? S and P five hundred or or Vanguard, like, Target date funds, like, nine, twenty, sixty five or something like that. You did this yourself or you hired, like, a Well, per se. No. I I hired a team. It's a good thing I did, because if not, I would've went off the rails. Right?

45:16

And then I put, you know, five, maybe seven percent in crypto. Right? And I put another five percent venture investing.

And then I put, you know, five, maybe seven percent in crypto. Right? And I put another five percent venture investing.

45:23

Right? But the vast vast majority is in really boring, real estate, S and P five hundred,

Right? But the vast vast majority is in really boring, real estate, S and P five hundred,

45:30

and,

and,

45:33

like, bonds. Right? But, like, really boring shit.

like, bonds. Right? But, like, really boring shit.

45:35

Nice. Let's talk about some non newsletter stuff. So

Nice. Let's talk about some non newsletter stuff. So

45:38

You got a bunch of ideas,

You got a bunch of ideas,

45:40

when we were hanging out at at camp MFM,

when we were hanging out at at camp MFM,

45:44

you were telling me about, like, this thing you're doing, and this thing you're doing, I was like, oh, this guy's, like, way more dynamic

you were telling me about, like, this thing you're doing, and this thing you're doing, I was like, oh, this guy's, like, way more dynamic

45:49

I had interested in a whole bunch of different things.

I had interested in a whole bunch of different things.

45:51

What are some ideas that you think would be cool to share?

What are some ideas that you think would be cool to share?

45:56

Yeah.

Yeah.

45:57

So I'll throw out a bunch of ideas I have. But one general framework I think people should think about is when you're in shitty economic times like we're going into now. I think the the framework you should use is you should look to save companies money or earn individuals

So I'll throw out a bunch of ideas I have. But one general framework I think people should think about is when you're in shitty economic times like we're going into now. I think the the framework you should use is you should look to save companies money or earn individuals

46:14

side income. Right? Before companies,

side income. Right? Before companies,

46:17

money didn't matter. Right? Capital was abundant. And so companies were all about just grow, grow, grow, right? How can you help me grow? It's a one eighty now. You know, people were trading

money didn't matter. Right? Capital was abundant. And so companies were all about just grow, grow, grow, right? How can you help me grow? It's a one eighty now. You know, people were trading

46:27

their money for other people's other people's time. Right? Now they're trading time for money. And so all you know, if you can help companies preserve money,

their money for other people's other people's time. Right? Now they're trading time for money. And so all you know, if you can help companies preserve money,

46:36

you can, I think, build really, really great side hustles? So a few ideas, right, I think it's like what's old is new, and then there's a bunch of agencies, I think, can be really interesting to start right now. One is outsourced talent.

you can, I think, build really, really great side hustles? So a few ideas, right, I think it's like what's old is new, and then there's a bunch of agencies, I think, can be really interesting to start right now. One is outsourced talent.

46:47

I knew nothing about the outsourced talent game. I recently became a co owner in a business. It's a really interesting business called oceans. They found talent in Sri Lanka. Right? Really cool talent in Sri Lanka where they've US graduates,

I knew nothing about the outsourced talent game. I recently became a co owner in a business. It's a really interesting business called oceans. They found talent in Sri Lanka. Right? Really cool talent in Sri Lanka where they've US graduates,

47:00

come to tech startups work there, really interesting. And I think there are ways. Right? They have a unique advantage going to Sri Lanka, which we don't really have to talk about. But I think there are companies who were hiring a full time copywriter. Let's call it. Or a full time,

come to tech startups work there, really interesting. And I think there are ways. Right? They have a unique advantage going to Sri Lanka, which we don't really have to talk about. But I think there are companies who were hiring a full time copywriter. Let's call it. Or a full time,

47:14

you know, marketer.

you know, marketer.

47:15

And they probably need them for twenty five, thirty hours a week. Twenty twenty one, screw it. Right? We'll need them at some point. I think now companies are really questioning FTEs. Right? Do you need a full time hire? And so you can create these niche marketplaces. And I'm getting investment opportunities for them all the time, and they're just not venture scaled. But you bootstrap a marketplace. Let's call it, like, a content marketing

And they probably need them for twenty five, thirty hours a week. Twenty twenty one, screw it. Right? We'll need them at some point. I think now companies are really questioning FTEs. Right? Do you need a full time hire? And so you can create these niche marketplaces. And I'm getting investment opportunities for them all the time, and they're just not venture scaled. But you bootstrap a marketplace. Let's call it, like, a content marketing

47:37

agency or content marketing marketplace for b to b companies. Right? These stocks are down ninety, ninety five percent. They're trying to drop FTEs

agency or content marketing marketplace for b to b companies. Right? These stocks are down ninety, ninety five percent. They're trying to drop FTEs

47:44

But they still want content. Right? We all know how valuable owning audience and content is and building that marketplace, helping them find people. I think simple services like that are gonna come back and devogue and be very, very profitable.

But they still want content. Right? We all know how valuable owning audience and content is and building that marketplace, helping them find people. I think simple services like that are gonna come back and devogue and be very, very profitable.

47:58

What's that company?

What's that company?

48:00

Where the founder got in trouble for not converting the the stock,

Where the founder got in trouble for not converting the the stock,

48:04

converting the convertible notes, but it was a marketplace for,

converting the convertible notes, but it was a marketplace for,

48:07

developers and it, like, bootstrap its way up practically, it would don't top towel. So top towel,

developers and it, like, bootstrap its way up practically, it would don't top towel. So top towel,

48:13

they got in trouble because they only raised, like, eight hundred thousand or a million dollars but they didn't convert the the the the the the no or whatever, so it was controversial,

they got in trouble because they only raised, like, eight hundred thousand or a million dollars but they didn't convert the the the the the the no or whatever, so it was controversial,

48:21

but they basically have bootstrapped it to this point to like north of a hundred million in net revenue.

but they basically have bootstrapped it to this point to like north of a hundred million in net revenue.

48:27

And so these marketplaces are like, can be they can be pretty freaking powerful and seem they seemed hard to get off the ground, but they don't seem that hard you already working in the in in the industry,

And so these marketplaces are like, can be they can be pretty freaking powerful and seem they seemed hard to get off the ground, but they don't seem that hard you already working in the in in the industry,

48:36

and it's a super niche

and it's a super niche

48:39

a niche topic. Because people ask me all the time to go, hey, I wanna hire writers. Who should I hire? And I'm like, I don't know, man. It's hard. I don't know who you should hire. Yeah.

a niche topic. Because people ask me all the time to go, hey, I wanna hire writers. Who should I hire? And I'm like, I don't know, man. It's hard. I don't know who you should hire. Yeah.

48:47

Yeah. I mean, the one I the one I'm now co owner and has gone from zero to seven figures of ARR in, like, eight months. Right? You've had a very specific target customer.

Yeah. I mean, the one I the one I'm now co owner and has gone from zero to seven figures of ARR in, like, eight months. Right? You've had a very specific target customer.

48:55

That's a gross, unique talent? Gross, or is that just your target? Margins are no. No. Well, now both. Right? Both are seven figures of ARR. That's crazy.

That's a gross, unique talent? Gross, or is that just your target? Margins are no. No. Well, now both. Right? Both are seven figures of ARR. That's crazy.

49:05

Yeah. And then, what's his name? Marshall from, Marshall Hawasse? He did shepherd. What's the URL? It's the same thing. Right? Same same business.

Yeah. And then, what's his name? Marshall from, Marshall Hawasse? He did shepherd. What's the URL? It's the same thing. Right? Same same business.

49:13

And I I it seems like he's scaled that to

And I I it seems like he's scaled that to

49:16

high seven figures in, like, less than a year it seems from the outside.

high seven figures in, like, less than a year it seems from the outside.

49:20

Yeah. Yeah. I think they're a bit different right. Ours is. I I think theirs is more, like, strictly EAs one we have is more, you, you know, you have people in finance, people in operations.

Yeah. Yeah. I think they're a bit different right. Ours is. I I think theirs is more, like, strictly EAs one we have is more, you, you know, you have people in finance, people in operations.

49:28

What's interesting about Sri Lanka is they have big four accounting firms, right, and so you can poach people. Not just from local businesses, but from people who've been trained by Ernst and and Deloitte. And so it's an interesting an interesting demographic to go into.

What's interesting about Sri Lanka is they have big four accounting firms, right, and so you can poach people. Not just from local businesses, but from people who've been trained by Ernst and and Deloitte. And so it's an interesting an interesting demographic to go into.

49:42

Yeah. I love that one. I think that's a great one. What are, what are some other, like,

Yeah. I love that one. I think that's a great one. What are, what are some other, like,

49:46

you know, help businesses save money, help the other one you said is help individuals earn side money. What's a what's an example of that? Yeah. So here here's one, I think, interesting. Right? So you built morning brew for crypto. Right? I know a lot of people have spoken about this, but I don't think anyone's really built the brand yet. I think morning brew or the hustle for AI

you know, help businesses save money, help the other one you said is help individuals earn side money. What's a what's an example of that? Yeah. So here here's one, I think, interesting. Right? So you built morning brew for crypto. Right? I know a lot of people have spoken about this, but I don't think anyone's really built the brand yet. I think morning brew or the hustle for AI

50:05

is gonna be huge. But how's that feel, by the way? A thing you you're just, like, calling Sean the morning brew of blank.

is gonna be huge. But how's that feel, by the way? A thing you you're just, like, calling Sean the morning brew of blank.

50:12

It's okay. It's okay.

It's okay. It's okay.

50:14

We did kick your ass in crypto. I mean, it's okay.

We did kick your ass in crypto. I mean, it's okay.

50:17

It's okay that that happened. No. You We could just

It's okay that that happened. No. You We could just

50:20

let it go, though. We could we can take a collective deep breath and just let it go if you if that would help.

let it go, though. We could we can take a collective deep breath and just let it go if you if that would help.

50:26

No. No. I mean, you again, you guys did a really great job. I I thought that was awesome. And I think someone's gonna do the same thing in AI. Right? And so the Bootstrap version of this is to do what you did. Right? The AI newsletter,

No. No. I mean, you again, you guys did a really great job. I I thought that was awesome. And I think someone's gonna do the same thing in AI. Right? And so the Bootstrap version of this is to do what you did. Right? The AI newsletter,

50:37

right, down the fairway, have a unique tone, integrate yourself into the audience.

right, down the fairway, have a unique tone, integrate yourself into the audience.

50:42

The way I think to take it to the next level, is

The way I think to take it to the next level, is

50:45

the last three months,

the last three months,

50:47

thousands of entrepreneurs have all started tinkering on little AI side projects. Right? And they all have fifty, a hundred k of ARR, And I've been reaching out to all these founders, like, you know,

thousands of entrepreneurs have all started tinkering on little AI side projects. Right? And they all have fifty, a hundred k of ARR, And I've been reaching out to all these founders, like, you know,

50:56

different little tools. Right? These are not real big businesses. They're all side hustles. Right? I went home for Thanksgiving. I asked all my friends from home, my family, Hey, like, have you guys been playing around with the chat GPT? Have you been playing around, and they're like, What in the hell are you talking about? Right? And so clearly, it's the same customer for all of these different things. Right? And so I think there's this opportunity

different little tools. Right? These are not real big businesses. They're all side hustles. Right? I went home for Thanksgiving. I asked all my friends from home, my family, Hey, like, have you guys been playing around with the chat GPT? Have you been playing around, and they're like, What in the hell are you talking about? Right? And so clearly, it's the same customer for all of these different things. Right? And so I think there's this opportunity

51:18

for the AI for morning brew to start a little tiny capital or a little holding company where you can start to invest and buy these businesses. Right?

for the AI for morning brew to start a little tiny capital or a little holding company where you can start to invest and buy these businesses. Right?

51:25

Give a an off ramp to these founders who've built these fifty or hundred or hundred fifty k ARR businesses

Give a an off ramp to these founders who've built these fifty or hundred or hundred fifty k ARR businesses

51:31

and start cross promoting them bundling marketing them, you write reviews for your little AI tool, and then you promote it. And instead of having ad advertising, which again, Sam has spoken about how it's difficult, you're just promoting all your products. You have this portfolio

and start cross promoting them bundling marketing them, you write reviews for your little AI tool, and then you promote it. And instead of having ad advertising, which again, Sam has spoken about how it's difficult, you're just promoting all your products. You have this portfolio

51:46

of ten, twenty, thirty little AI tools, and maybe each one is half a million or a million of

of ten, twenty, thirty little AI tools, and maybe each one is half a million or a million of

51:51

ARR. But altogether, you you can get you get pretty big pretty quickly.

ARR. But altogether, you you can get you get pretty big pretty quickly.

51:55

That one seems harder to me.

That one seems harder to me.

51:57

I I feel like

I I feel like

52:00

Like, I like the idea, but I'm like, okay. Realistically, if I did that, I feel like I would

Like, I like the idea, but I'm like, okay. Realistically, if I did that, I feel like I would

52:06

I like ideas where The idea is so good. My execution can be like a seven out of ten, and I still win.

I like ideas where The idea is so good. My execution can be like a seven out of ten, and I still win.

52:12

Because Yeah. But this is his thing, man. Is his thing. He he executes some of these things really well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I don't think it'd be that hard. I I'm telling you, I I've been talking to a bunch of these, like, these founders, these little AI side projects, And I mean, I'm like, what are you doing with it? And I'm like, I Well, the reason I think it's hard is not because you can't roll them up. You can't buy them. I think it's hard because

Because Yeah. But this is his thing, man. Is his thing. He he executes some of these things really well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I don't think it'd be that hard. I I'm telling you, I I've been talking to a bunch of these, like, these founders, these little AI side projects, And I mean, I'm like, what are you doing with it? And I'm like, I Well, the reason I think it's hard is not because you can't roll them up. You can't buy them. I think it's hard because

52:33

all it's like the Lindy effect. Right? So when something's been around for three months, as that fifty k MRR,

all it's like the Lindy effect. Right? So when something's been around for three months, as that fifty k MRR,

52:40

And it seems great. Like, you don't know if that thing's gonna be around three months from now because

And it seems great. Like, you don't know if that thing's gonna be around three months from now because

52:45

the next model will come out or the next chat, like, for example,

the next model will come out or the next chat, like, for example,

52:49

you know,

you know,

52:50

your stable diffusion comes out. Then, and then, you know, chat GPT comes out. Well, people were, you know, I've invested in a couple of these that, you know, the AI writing tools, they're getting better,

your stable diffusion comes out. Then, and then, you know, chat GPT comes out. Well, people were, you know, I've invested in a couple of these that, you know, the AI writing tools, they're getting better,

53:02

and they're pouring millions into marketing to get to get customers for their, you know, AI, AI writing tool, but everybody's building on the same foundations, the same models. And then they're trying to say how they're gonna be differentiated in The reality is they could differentiate it on, I don't know, customer acquisition. And so I think that, like, it is

and they're pouring millions into marketing to get to get customers for their, you know, AI, AI writing tool, but everybody's building on the same foundations, the same models. And then they're trying to say how they're gonna be differentiated in The reality is they could differentiate it on, I don't know, customer acquisition. And so I think that, like, it is

53:21

you know, I I think about when I buy something. Like, you know, the tiny capital bottle works because he buys stuff that's, like, kind of been, like, around and forgotten and ignored for, like, a long period of time. Like, he buys, like, in a dribble.

you know, I I think about when I buy something. Like, you know, the tiny capital bottle works because he buys stuff that's, like, kind of been, like, around and forgotten and ignored for, like, a long period of time. Like, he buys, like, in a dribble.

53:34

You know, it's like, oh, it's been around for years,

You know, it's like, oh, it's been around for years,

53:37

and I could buy it, and I can it's gonna be around for years, and I can improve it over that time,

and I could buy it, and I can it's gonna be around for years, and I can improve it over that time,

53:42

versus buying the things that are really

versus buying the things that are really

53:45

new and quick.

new and quick.

53:46

I think you have a a challenge with the durability.

I think you have a a challenge with the durability.

53:50

Of those businesses. Because what happens as,

Of those businesses. Because what happens as,

53:53

you know, the AI just keeps improving, but, you know, either these these become obsolete or it starts to consolidate into, like, one app that can do four of these things. And so you don't need one for posting on social media and one for writing emails. It's like, It's the same Chrome extension that's just gonna do both. And so I think there's a good chance you can kinda get, like,

you know, the AI just keeps improving, but, you know, either these these become obsolete or it starts to consolidate into, like, one app that can do four of these things. And so you don't need one for posting on social media and one for writing emails. It's like, It's the same Chrome extension that's just gonna do both. And so I think there's a good chance you can kinda get, like,

54:11

you know,

you know,

54:13

you know, just sort of blown away by by by the rate of change that's going on in the industry. So that's the thing I would be worried about with that. Similar to remember telling Andrew wilkinson about Thrasio, and I was like, oh, this is super smart. Like, these FBA stores

you know, just sort of blown away by by by the rate of change that's going on in the industry. So that's the thing I would be worried about with that. Similar to remember telling Andrew wilkinson about Thrasio, and I was like, oh, this is super smart. Like, these FBA stores

54:26

are super cheap, and there's, you know, like, each one of them is small.

are super cheap, and there's, you know, like, each one of them is small.

54:30

But you could go and just, like, scoop up all these and look at this. They're buying them on this, like, crazy low multiple.

But you could go and just, like, scoop up all these and look at this. They're buying them on this, like, crazy low multiple.

54:35

Hey. He goes,

Hey. He goes,

54:37

yeah, it's like picking pennies up in front of a steamroller.

yeah, it's like picking pennies up in front of a steamroller.

54:40

And,

And,

54:41

is his first reaction. And I was like, yeah, I could see what you mean. What, like, if the platform changes, he goes,

is his first reaction. And I was like, yeah, I could see what you mean. What, like, if the platform changes, he goes,

54:46

if anything happens, She's like, you know, these aren't real durable brands. I haven't been around for a while. Maybe it's that Amazon changes the algorithm.

if anything happens, She's like, you know, these aren't real durable brands. I haven't been around for a while. Maybe it's that Amazon changes the algorithm.

54:53

Maybe it's that there's, you know, more competition. Maybe it's not the multiples go up. There's There's four or five different ways where you just get steamrolled. And and that's actually what how it played out pretty much in the in the

Maybe it's that there's, you know, more competition. Maybe it's not the multiples go up. There's There's four or five different ways where you just get steamrolled. And and that's actually what how it played out pretty much in the in the

55:04

Amazon aggregator space was for a while. The getting was good. And then those companies went all in on it. And then they kind of got steamrolled. That, you know, or they're they're getting steamrolled as we speak.

Amazon aggregator space was for a while. The getting was good. And then those companies went all in on it. And then they kind of got steamrolled. That, you know, or they're they're getting steamrolled as we speak.

55:16

Yeah. I think you bring up a great point about AI. Right? And that's why while I think the technology is great. I've been very skeptical in investing. In these companies that just really build on top of, you know, OpenAI

Yeah. I think you bring up a great point about AI. Right? And that's why while I think the technology is great. I've been very skeptical in investing. In these companies that just really build on top of, you know, OpenAI

55:28

because it's, it's like, you have a nice wrapper. Right? It's nice marketing. It's great. But what do you have long term? What do you they all do that. Who doesn't do that? Nobody's doing their own AI. Everybody's everybody's everybody's building off open AI or stable diffusion. And that's I'm skeptical investing in that. Right? I I think there's so many popping up. Right? It's the next crypto wave. Right? There's gonna be a huge, huge bubble and, you know, and they're raising not at crypto prices, but I'm seeing hey, two guys left some, you know, and your recent back company. We're raising five on twenty five. Like, what do you have? They're like, oh, well, we have a deck But since we created the deck, we've already changed our mind. It was this, and now it's this. And it's like, guys, come on. You can't you can't be serious. We've seen this play out

because it's, it's like, you have a nice wrapper. Right? It's nice marketing. It's great. But what do you have long term? What do you they all do that. Who doesn't do that? Nobody's doing their own AI. Everybody's everybody's everybody's building off open AI or stable diffusion. And that's I'm skeptical investing in that. Right? I I think there's so many popping up. Right? It's the next crypto wave. Right? There's gonna be a huge, huge bubble and, you know, and they're raising not at crypto prices, but I'm seeing hey, two guys left some, you know, and your recent back company. We're raising five on twenty five. Like, what do you have? They're like, oh, well, we have a deck But since we created the deck, we've already changed our mind. It was this, and now it's this. And it's like, guys, come on. You can't you can't be serious. We've seen this play out

56:05

while you say that, they're like, we just got another offer for thirty five. The price is gone.

while you say that, they're like, we just got another offer for thirty five. The price is gone.

56:10

You,

You,

56:12

you know, like, I always I I always felt this way about you And as I've gotten to know you, I've I feel this way even more.

you know, like, I always I I always felt this way about you And as I've gotten to know you, I've I feel this way even more.

56:18

The way that you know someone's an interesting founder is when you talk to them and you're, like, a little fearful of them. Where you're like, I don't wanna have to go against this person because they're gonna be very, very challenging to kill. And you totally have that vibe. You've got this like weird mixture of neuroticism

The way that you know someone's an interesting founder is when you talk to them and you're, like, a little fearful of them. Where you're like, I don't wanna have to go against this person because they're gonna be very, very challenging to kill. And you totally have that vibe. You've got this like weird mixture of neuroticism

56:35

where you're like, no, I have to go. Like, I have to win. We're gonna lose, like, everything's over. If I don't win this thing, then you also have this, like, really good work ethic. I remember I asked you the other day. I'm like, Hey, at what point at morning brew did you quit grinding? And you're like, what? Never. I'm still grinding.

where you're like, no, I have to go. Like, I have to win. We're gonna lose, like, everything's over. If I don't win this thing, then you also have this, like, really good work ethic. I remember I asked you the other day. I'm like, Hey, at what point at morning brew did you quit grinding? And you're like, what? Never. I'm still grinding.

56:50

And,

And,

56:51

I think that's just a really that's really fascinating.

I think that's just a really that's really fascinating.

56:53

Were you are you weirdly good at, like,

Were you are you weirdly good at, like,

56:56

some random thing? Did you, like, channel that session towards some other thing, like, growing up. We we,

some random thing? Did you, like, channel that session towards some other thing, like, growing up. We we,

57:02

like, we tennis or some bullshit.

like, we tennis or some bullshit.

57:05

Yeah. I I mean, I I was obsessed with video games. Right? Sports video games.

Yeah. I I mean, I I was obsessed with video games. Right? Sports video games.

57:10

But nothing nothing specific. Right? Was it like Travis Callanick, like number two, we tennis in the world.

But nothing nothing specific. Right? Was it like Travis Callanick, like number two, we tennis in the world.

57:16

No. It was that. And now I'm like, is that for cooking. Right? I'm I I've thought about, like, when I go to culinary school and take night classes, because now I'm obsessed with cooking. I love to cook. Wow.

No. It was that. And now I'm like, is that for cooking. Right? I'm I I've thought about, like, when I go to culinary school and take night classes, because now I'm obsessed with cooking. I love to cook. Wow.

57:25

Did not see that coming. You gotta come over for a meal. You gotta come to the I I know you don't leave San Francisco, but when you do, you'll have to come to New York.

Did not see that coming. You gotta come over for a meal. You gotta come to the I I know you don't leave San Francisco, but when you do, you'll have to come to New York.

57:34

So what what do you, what's you said something about Remit and, like, your rich life? What do you think your rich life? How how do you know? Twenty eight? What what's your rich life gonna be? At thirty five and forty? Like, what are you working towards Yeah. I I think

So what what do you, what's you said something about Remit and, like, your rich life? What do you think your rich life? How how do you know? Twenty eight? What what's your rich life gonna be? At thirty five and forty? Like, what are you working towards Yeah. I I think

57:47

for me,

for me,

57:49

it's all about time. Right? Like, to me, wealth is all about having time and spending that time how you want to. Right? Right now, I wanna spend that time building this company because I constantly see more growth and more opportunity, and not just like two x, but ten x. But ultimately, what I would be able to at thirty five is spend my time, how I would have spent it on any given day. Right? And and that means a lot of travel. I love traveling. I I I I wouldn't go at some point, in the not too distant future, hopefully. Go on a six month trip, three months to Europe, three months to Southeast Asia, I never got to do that. A lot of my friends in college, when they graduated, they went to Thailand and, and wherever else, I drove from Michigan to New York and started working the next day. And so for me, it's a lot of traveling. You know, nothing crazy. Spend time with family, doing fun stuff. Right? Like, being able just to say, hey, like today, I'm gonna, you know, drop five hundred bucks and go, you know, do something, you know, a thousand dollars and go do some fun activity, right, adventurous activities.

it's all about time. Right? Like, to me, wealth is all about having time and spending that time how you want to. Right? Right now, I wanna spend that time building this company because I constantly see more growth and more opportunity, and not just like two x, but ten x. But ultimately, what I would be able to at thirty five is spend my time, how I would have spent it on any given day. Right? And and that means a lot of travel. I love traveling. I I I I wouldn't go at some point, in the not too distant future, hopefully. Go on a six month trip, three months to Europe, three months to Southeast Asia, I never got to do that. A lot of my friends in college, when they graduated, they went to Thailand and, and wherever else, I drove from Michigan to New York and started working the next day. And so for me, it's a lot of traveling. You know, nothing crazy. Spend time with family, doing fun stuff. Right? Like, being able just to say, hey, like today, I'm gonna, you know, drop five hundred bucks and go, you know, do something, you know, a thousand dollars and go do some fun activity, right, adventurous activities.

58:41

But it all comes back to just waking up and say, hey, I wanna spend my day and then doing that thing. Are you able to do that now?

But it all comes back to just waking up and say, hey, I wanna spend my day and then doing that thing. Are you able to do that now?

58:47

I can. Right. But I I choose to spend that time on morning, Brooke. I am maniacally focused. On growing morning brew. I think there's a ton of opportunity, but as soon as I don't think that, well, I'll change. I'll say, Hey, you know, today, I wanna do something else.

I can. Right. But I I choose to spend that time on morning, Brooke. I am maniacally focused. On growing morning brew. I think there's a ton of opportunity, but as soon as I don't think that, well, I'll change. I'll say, Hey, you know, today, I wanna do something else.

59:00

Do you like having two hundred plus employees? It sounds like fucking hell, particularly

Do you like having two hundred plus employees? It sounds like fucking hell, particularly

59:05

New York Manhattan,

New York Manhattan,

59:06

like, woke employees that, like, the New York media scene, like, everyone's talking about unionizing. Like, when I think about that, I'm like, this sounds

like, woke employees that, like, the New York media scene, like, everyone's talking about unionizing. Like, when I think about that, I'm like, this sounds

59:13

miserable.

miserable.

59:14

Blank if bleak, if it's miserable, because I know you can't say anything.

Blank if bleak, if it's miserable, because I know you can't say anything.

59:18

What were you gonna say?

What were you gonna say?

59:21

No. No. I I mean, look, I and here's a couple things. One,

No. No. I I mean, look, I and here's a couple things. One,

59:24

we have a lot of remote employees. So we do have a really good distribution

we have a lot of remote employees. So we do have a really good distribution

59:28

of employees across the country, which I think does help. Right? I think having employees everywhere, gives different perspectives, right, our engineering team lives, you know, in the Midwest than and we have people all across the country, which I think is cool. But

of employees across the country, which I think does help. Right? I think having employees everywhere, gives different perspectives, right, our engineering team lives, you know, in the Midwest than and we have people all across the country, which I think is cool. But

59:41

To be honest, as as a CEO of a two hundred fifty person company, I'm not interacting with that many people on daily basis. But what I love is Like, the one of the reasons I stay is because we built this team of people who are reporting to me who are just a plus all stars, like absolute rock stars, And that's what makes me so happy is when I can just come to work and say, hey, you know, chief content officer, hey, you know, person x, like, more do you do it? And, like, tell me more about it. How can I help you? But also, I'm like a vacuum. Right? I'll hire someone new, a chief content officer, a a COO. I'll be like, I'm gonna learn as much as humanly possible, and my goal is to catch up to you and knowledge as fast as possible. So if you're thirty eight, you're forty, you know, you're, you're ten years older than me, I wanna just vacuum up those ten years of knowledge you've gained, working these four or five places, in the next, like, two months. And I'm just gonna pester you and sit with you and just learn as much as humanly possible so I can, you know, be better than you and know more than you. And it's, like, this competitive nature.

To be honest, as as a CEO of a two hundred fifty person company, I'm not interacting with that many people on daily basis. But what I love is Like, the one of the reasons I stay is because we built this team of people who are reporting to me who are just a plus all stars, like absolute rock stars, And that's what makes me so happy is when I can just come to work and say, hey, you know, chief content officer, hey, you know, person x, like, more do you do it? And, like, tell me more about it. How can I help you? But also, I'm like a vacuum. Right? I'll hire someone new, a chief content officer, a a COO. I'll be like, I'm gonna learn as much as humanly possible, and my goal is to catch up to you and knowledge as fast as possible. So if you're thirty eight, you're forty, you know, you're, you're ten years older than me, I wanna just vacuum up those ten years of knowledge you've gained, working these four or five places, in the next, like, two months. And I'm just gonna pester you and sit with you and just learn as much as humanly possible so I can, you know, be better than you and know more than you. And it's, like, this competitive nature.

01:00:41

That's exactly what I'm saying about being like someone that that you're you're you'd be really hard to compete with. You were hard to compete with.

That's exactly what I'm saying about being like someone that that you're you're you'd be really hard to compete with. You were hard to compete with.

01:00:49

That's a really fascinating mindset. It's very intriguing. I I saw Sean Smurt. That's always a good sign.

That's a really fascinating mindset. It's very intriguing. I I saw Sean Smurt. That's always a good sign.

01:00:55

Yeah. I wouldn't wanna compete with you. It's like, oh, you did. For, like, five years. I did. Yeah. And, like,

Yeah. I wouldn't wanna compete with you. It's like, oh, you did. For, like, five years. I did. Yeah. And, like,

01:01:01

I mean, it was fun. I I think that I think maybe I'm the same way where someone's like, I don't know if I want a computer to consume, but but Like, you know, I think it's,

I mean, it was fun. I I think that I think maybe I'm the same way where someone's like, I don't know if I want a computer to consume, but but Like, you know, I think it's,

01:01:10

it's it's it's you're you're intriguing. You're interesting. I think you have got a really good mindset. I think you got that good inner game.

it's it's it's you're you're intriguing. You're interesting. I think you have got a really good mindset. I think you got that good inner game.

01:01:17

Yeah. And I I think I think I I can't remember if I said this before, but I think the thing that really I I've changed my thinking about you so much is I used to think you were, like, rude

Yeah. And I I think I think I I can't remember if I said this before, but I think the thing that really I I've changed my thinking about you so much is I used to think you were, like, rude

01:01:27

And now, yeah, we've been working together on, like, a few side projects. And what I've learned is that

And now, yeah, we've been working together on, like, a few side projects. And what I've learned is that

01:01:33

your style is not for everyone, but you are what I would call, like,

your style is not for everyone, but you are what I would call, like,

01:01:37

admirably

admirably

01:01:39

abrasive.

abrasive.

01:01:40

Right? And we run a call. I don't know if if I'm supposed to tell a story, but we run a call. I won't say names. We're on a call, and this guy gives us, like, a three minute pitch, and I just see the look on Sam's face. I go, oh, no. This guy's spiel is not good. And the guy goes, Sam, what do you think? And Sam, no smile, straight face goes. I don't know why I'm even on this call. What are you talking about?

Right? And we run a call. I don't know if if I'm supposed to tell a story, but we run a call. I won't say names. We're on a call, and this guy gives us, like, a three minute pitch, and I just see the look on Sam's face. I go, oh, no. This guy's spiel is not good. And the guy goes, Sam, what do you think? And Sam, no smile, straight face goes. I don't know why I'm even on this call. What are you talking about?

01:02:02

Well,

Well,

01:02:03

and I just start dying.

and I just start dying.

01:02:05

But

But

01:02:07

but I'm not trying to be rude. I'm not trying to be rude. Exactly.

but I'm not trying to be rude. I'm not trying to be rude. Exactly.

01:02:10

Exactly. And it's not for everyone, right? That style is not for everyone, but I can see how you so quickly grow things with the right people. Because that type of radical candor that, like, Hey, I'm just gonna tell you what I think, and we're not gonna have an ego. And we're gonna work together to solve problems. Is so much better than sitting in the corporate media, being like, Oh, yeah, no, that was, that was great, and then sending an email later. You should look this guy straight in the eyes and you're like, I don't know why I'm here.

Exactly. And it's not for everyone, right? That style is not for everyone, but I can see how you so quickly grow things with the right people. Because that type of radical candor that, like, Hey, I'm just gonna tell you what I think, and we're not gonna have an ego. And we're gonna work together to solve problems. Is so much better than sitting in the corporate media, being like, Oh, yeah, no, that was, that was great, and then sending an email later. You should look this guy straight in the eyes and you're like, I don't know why I'm here.

01:02:36

Yeah. I mean and the person who we were speaking with, I think they're great. And I was just like, you're you're great. This is stupid, though. You, you know, be different.

Yeah. I mean and the person who we were speaking with, I think they're great. And I was just like, you're you're great. This is stupid, though. You, you know, be different.

01:02:45

And,

And,

01:02:46

be better than you are right now and and achieve your potential. I think you're I think you're great. Typically with the way that I work with people, and I don't like hearing when people say that I'm rude. That kinda hurts my feelings because I'm like, oh, shit. I don't wanna be, like, I don't wanna be known as a jerk. I'm I I'm a pretty kind guy. I thought. So I hate hearing that, but it is the truth.

be better than you are right now and and achieve your potential. I think you're I think you're great. Typically with the way that I work with people, and I don't like hearing when people say that I'm rude. That kinda hurts my feelings because I'm like, oh, shit. I don't wanna be, like, I don't wanna be known as a jerk. I'm I I'm a pretty kind guy. I thought. So I hate hearing that, but it is the truth.

01:03:06

Alright. Sean, you work with Sam. What's, what what's it like? Do you want that on your own?

Alright. Sean, you work with Sam. What's, what what's it like? Do you want that on your own?

01:03:13

Yeah. I think Sam's intimidating to work with. You know, I think that I've seen a bunch of people around the podcast that are intimidating, but it's a good thing. It's a standard, like, The people who have really high standards for how they want things to go, they're intimidating to work with. Like, for me, we come on here. Something's messed up, the camera, the audio, whatever.

Yeah. I think Sam's intimidating to work with. You know, I think that I've seen a bunch of people around the podcast that are intimidating, but it's a good thing. It's a standard, like, The people who have really high standards for how they want things to go, they're intimidating to work with. Like, for me, we come on here. Something's messed up, the camera, the audio, whatever.

01:03:31

Hey, Don't worry. It's gonna be a great show. I'm trying to put that person at ease. So I'm like, they probably feel like shit. I know they didn't want this to happen.

Hey, Don't worry. It's gonna be a great show. I'm trying to put that person at ease. So I'm like, they probably feel like shit. I know they didn't want this to happen.

01:03:39

You know, like and a lot of these things are

You know, like and a lot of these things are

01:03:41

I know. Like, that's not you

I know. Like, that's not you

01:03:44

intentionally messing something up. That's like something is going wrong. Somebody's late. So something out of your control is happening. Or as Sam gets frustrated, I could see that person start to sweat. And I don't think that's rude. I just think that's, like, I think you're focused, and I think you,

intentionally messing something up. That's like something is going wrong. Somebody's late. So something out of your control is happening. Or as Sam gets frustrated, I could see that person start to sweat. And I don't think that's rude. I just think that's, like, I think you're focused, and I think you,

01:04:00

you know, you're just like

you know, you're just like

01:04:02

you're like a blunt object. It's like, what are you gonna say? Like, this hammer is not very soft? No. It's a fucking hammer. We that we that's why we like it. That's why it has That's why it's the best spot in the tool set because it's this, like, really,

you're like a blunt object. It's like, what are you gonna say? Like, this hammer is not very soft? No. It's a fucking hammer. We that we that's why we like it. That's why it has That's why it's the best spot in the tool set because it's this, like, really,

01:04:14

like, heavy blunt object, and that's what you need. And, like, for the podcast, the podcast would not be successful.

like, heavy blunt object, and that's what you need. And, like, for the podcast, the podcast would not be successful.

01:04:20

Without Sam. Like, they that's just he brings that to the pod. And so

Without Sam. Like, they that's just he brings that to the pod. And so

01:04:25

I love that. Now with that comes, oh, I you know, sometimes

I love that. Now with that comes, oh, I you know, sometimes

01:04:29

is not gonna be, you know, not everyone's gonna get treated with soft gloves, and that's okay. Like, you know,

is not gonna be, you know, not everyone's gonna get treated with soft gloves, and that's okay. Like, you know,

01:04:34

if you know the guy's intent is good, then you you don't really worry about it. So I don't know. That's That's my, I don't know, my my feedback. That's good.

if you know the guy's intent is good, then you you don't really worry about it. So I don't know. That's That's my, I don't know, my my feedback. That's good.

01:04:42

Yeah. No. That that that's what I'm bringing. And then, Sean, let me I I know I'm here for you guys to ask me questions. But I wanna ask you a question,

Yeah. No. That that that's what I'm bringing. And then, Sean, let me I I know I'm here for you guys to ask me questions. But I wanna ask you a question,

01:04:50

which is,

which is,

01:04:51

you know, like, you obviously are a great storyteller.

you know, like, you obviously are a great storyteller.

01:04:54

You're very good on camera.

You're very good on camera.

01:04:57

How much of that do you think is is natural? Like, you were born with it? K. And how much of it you

How much of that do you think is is natural? Like, you were born with it? K. And how much of it you

01:05:02

Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Let me let me answer it first, sir. Keep going. Put the camera. True.

Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Let me let me answer it first, sir. Keep going. Put the camera. True.

01:05:07

I was gonna say.

I was gonna say.

01:05:09

I was gonna say how how much are you thinking you're born with and how much are you, or have you studied, like, how are you, and what are you doing to get better because I've listened to the podcast for three years, and you just increasingly upped your game and gotten better. And, I mean, it it's pretty it's pretty incredible. Let me give my perspective and then he should answer. But, so from the time I knew Sean, he was always pretty good. He would we he would we would do these, like, the the podcast stemmed because me, him and Siva, and a few other guys would meet weekly or monthly and, like, do kind of what we're doing now. And Sean was always good at,

I was gonna say how how much are you thinking you're born with and how much are you, or have you studied, like, how are you, and what are you doing to get better because I've listened to the podcast for three years, and you just increasingly upped your game and gotten better. And, I mean, it it's pretty it's pretty incredible. Let me give my perspective and then he should answer. But, so from the time I knew Sean, he was always pretty good. He would we he would we would do these, like, the the podcast stemmed because me, him and Siva, and a few other guys would meet weekly or monthly and, like, do kind of what we're doing now. And Sean was always good at,

01:05:40

like, I I would explain something and he'd be like, well, so what you're really saying is this. So here's how you should look at it. And he would like storytelling in such a way where I'm like, oh, wow. You've got this, like, inspirational, like, thing about you. That's really good.

like, I I would explain something and he'd be like, well, so what you're really saying is this. So here's how you should look at it. And he would like storytelling in such a way where I'm like, oh, wow. You've got this, like, inspirational, like, thing about you. That's really good.

01:05:53

And then so we always had that. I think that was like a I think he was born with that. And then we started the pod, and he was a little rough. Where I actually think early on, I was better than him at, like, capturing attention.

And then so we always had that. I think that was like a I think he was born with that. And then we started the pod, and he was a little rough. Where I actually think early on, I was better than him at, like, capturing attention.

01:06:05

And then he started learning about

And then he started learning about

01:06:07

copywriting. I think I was like, you should learn about this copywriting thing. And then he

copywriting. I think I was like, you should learn about this copywriting thing. And then he

01:06:11

got really good at copywriting. And then he got really good at storytelling, like, on a more refined basis. And, basically, what happened was because he was born with this, I think this innate ability, as well as he

got really good at copywriting. And then he got really good at storytelling, like, on a more refined basis. And, basically, what happened was because he was born with this, I think this innate ability, as well as he

01:06:22

wanted to learn about it, and then he actually studied it His trajectory and his growth was quicker than mine, and I think he actually surpassed it in terms of, like, storytelling and ability to capture attention.

wanted to learn about it, and then he actually studied it His trajectory and his growth was quicker than mine, and I think he actually surpassed it in terms of, like, storytelling and ability to capture attention.

01:06:32

And if you won't listen to like the first couple of episodes, you could clearly see, like, because of his tone of voice and everything, like, alright, this person's intriguing.

And if you won't listen to like the first couple of episodes, you could clearly see, like, because of his tone of voice and everything, like, alright, this person's intriguing.

01:06:40

But then it was like he studied it over a year, and you could see that there was a huge change. And I think it was in part of him studying copywriting,

But then it was like he studied it over a year, and you could see that there was a huge change. And I think it was in part of him studying copywriting,

01:06:48

And I do think he, like, actually went and studied, like, Hassan, Hassan and, like, all these other comedians. He, like, figured out we both like comedians, but I think he studies it, and we'll, like, tweet or message each other, but, like, hey, let's look how they, like, told this joke. It was really interesting. And so he actually studied that and truly learned it. And so I think it was a combination of being born and studying over, like, two years. Is that is that accurate?

And I do think he, like, actually went and studied, like, Hassan, Hassan and, like, all these other comedians. He, like, figured out we both like comedians, but I think he studies it, and we'll, like, tweet or message each other, but, like, hey, let's look how they, like, told this joke. It was really interesting. And so he actually studied that and truly learned it. And so I think it was a combination of being born and studying over, like, two years. Is that is that accurate?

01:07:10

I think some things you said that were accurate. Sure.

I think some things you said that were accurate. Sure.

01:07:14

My and nobody knows. Right? Like, is it possible to answer, but, like, I'll give it my best shot. My here's my honest opinion. My honest opinion is I I don't actually think I'm that good at it in at absolute terms, I just think it's relative to tech business

My and nobody knows. Right? Like, is it possible to answer, but, like, I'll give it my best shot. My here's my honest opinion. My honest opinion is I I don't actually think I'm that good at it in at absolute terms, I just think it's relative to tech business

01:07:28

and, like, podcasts or general sense. When I've seen you with, like, professionals and they, like, comedians, and I saw that they were, like, coming to you for advice.

and, like, podcasts or general sense. When I've seen you with, like, professionals and they, like, comedians, and I saw that they were, like, coming to you for advice.

01:07:37

I've seen it.

I've seen it.

01:07:39

Yeah. That okay. That happens, but I think the

Yeah. That okay. That happens, but I think the

01:07:42

I don't know. I I grew up at Houston,

I don't know. I I grew up at Houston,

01:07:44

and Houston's just got, like, a very high swag factor. And, like, they're, like, you play basketball in the locker room? There were dudes that, like, should have been on stage at the Apollo or something like that. Like, just the natural charisma of people

and Houston's just got, like, a very high swag factor. And, like, they're, like, you play basketball in the locker room? There were dudes that, like, should have been on stage at the Apollo or something like that. Like, just the natural charisma of people

01:07:58

who are just,

who are just,

01:07:59

you know, that I grew up with were was just really, really high. So I think that actually has a lot to do with it. When you hang out with people who naturally have a lot of swag and charisma and tell funny jokes or stories are able to to just quickly jump in and have quick wit.

you know, that I grew up with were was just really, really high. So I think that actually has a lot to do with it. When you hang out with people who naturally have a lot of swag and charisma and tell funny jokes or stories are able to to just quickly jump in and have quick wit.

01:08:13

That just becomes your normal. So I think part of it was that some environment stuff. My sister, for example, is way funnier, way better storyteller than me. And growing up, it was always

That just becomes your normal. So I think part of it was that some environment stuff. My sister, for example, is way funnier, way better storyteller than me. And growing up, it was always

01:08:23

Sean's the smart nice one. He's quiet. He's shy. She's the funny one, charismatic. If something happened to me, they'd be like, Nisha tell the story about, like, Sean, like, let Nisha tell the story. Everyone will love it. So at every family party, it was her doing and and, you know, so imagine that, like, the you admire, your your older sibling,

Sean's the smart nice one. He's quiet. He's shy. She's the funny one, charismatic. If something happened to me, they'd be like, Nisha tell the story about, like, Sean, like, let Nisha tell the story. Everyone will love it. So at every family party, it was her doing and and, you know, so imagine that, like, the you admire, your your older sibling,

01:08:42

is really great at this thing. And you just constantly see your family and friends and, like, everybody loves that about them. So to me, it became like an important thing in my life. I was like, and not in a negative way. Not like a a jealousy, but I was just like, it was a thing I valued. I was like, oh, that's a really cool skill.

is really great at this thing. And you just constantly see your family and friends and, like, everybody loves that about them. So to me, it became like an important thing in my life. I was like, and not in a negative way. Not like a a jealousy, but I was just like, it was a thing I valued. I was like, oh, that's a really cool skill.

01:08:57

I value that. I had no idea how to do it. And when I was younger, I was just super, super quiet. So I didn't talk that much in my friend's group, I was just the I was the laugh track. I wasn't the the guy making the jokes. I was the crowd noise.

I value that. I had no idea how to do it. And when I was younger, I was just super, super quiet. So I didn't talk that much in my friend's group, I was just the I was the laugh track. I wasn't the the guy making the jokes. I was the crowd noise.

01:09:11

And,

And,

01:09:12

but I started to

but I started to

01:09:14

I got a couple lucky breaks.

I got a couple lucky breaks.

01:09:16

My cousin was in town and was like, hey, you know, there's a movie audition going on. Like, you wanna come with me and I like, yeah, I guess so. I don't know. And so I went with them, and I ended up getting cast in the movie.

My cousin was in town and was like, hey, you know, there's a movie audition going on. Like, you wanna come with me and I like, yeah, I guess so. I don't know. And so I went with them, and I ended up getting cast in the movie.

01:09:28

And that, like, showed me that exposed me to a different thing. And the the guy in the movie who was my brother was cal Pen, who who was the guy from Harold and Kumar, stuff like that. So I got to hang out with him for, like, weeks at a time. So now I'm around somebody else who's very charismatic.

And that, like, showed me that exposed me to a different thing. And the the guy in the movie who was my brother was cal Pen, who who was the guy from Harold and Kumar, stuff like that. So I got to hang out with him for, like, weeks at a time. So now I'm around somebody else who's very charismatic.

01:09:41

Very good storyteller,

Very good storyteller,

01:09:42

but he's like a professional actor. Right? So he was somebody I admired that I was hanging out with for weeks. He's the only guy I talked to on set because I was intimidated by everybody else. And he was super nice to me. And so we just hung out every day for, like, you know, six weeks. So that's a kind of a boot camp in, like, just being around somebody who's got that charisma.

but he's like a professional actor. Right? So he was somebody I admired that I was hanging out with for weeks. He's the only guy I talked to on set because I was intimidated by everybody else. And he was super nice to me. And so we just hung out every day for, like, you know, six weeks. So that's a kind of a boot camp in, like, just being around somebody who's got that charisma.

01:10:00

Okay. Then fast forward.

Okay. Then fast forward.

01:10:02

I moved to San Francisco,

I moved to San Francisco,

01:10:04

and I'm like, okay.

and I'm like, okay.

01:10:06

I wanna be, like, you know,

I wanna be, like, you know,

01:10:08

I don't know. In my mind, I was like, a CEO should be the leader. The leader should be inspiring,

I don't know. In my mind, I was like, a CEO should be the leader. The leader should be inspiring,

01:10:13

charismatic,

charismatic,

01:10:14

clear,

clear,

01:10:15

I'm none of those things. So how am I gonna do all that? And so I, like, tried

I'm none of those things. So how am I gonna do all that? And so I, like, tried

01:10:20

to do things. I took, you know, I I went to the SF improv

to do things. I took, you know, I I went to the SF improv

01:10:23

I took classes there all the time. Right? Because I was like, I don't know. It's fun. I might meet some people, but also I think this I think improv is just like a crazy skill set to have. Like, to be able to on your feet, be able to think of something and, you know, make a crowd laugh. That that to me is a actual superpower, and that's the superpower I wanted to have. Same thing with comedians. Like, I like that content, but I don't just watch it and let just, like, drool come out of my mouth that, oh, wow. These people are funny. I'm like, I wanna be funny. I love how funny they are. And, like, what do they do when they tell stories,

I took classes there all the time. Right? Because I was like, I don't know. It's fun. I might meet some people, but also I think this I think improv is just like a crazy skill set to have. Like, to be able to on your feet, be able to think of something and, you know, make a crowd laugh. That that to me is a actual superpower, and that's the superpower I wanted to have. Same thing with comedians. Like, I like that content, but I don't just watch it and let just, like, drool come out of my mouth that, oh, wow. These people are funny. I'm like, I wanna be funny. I love how funny they are. And, like, what do they do when they tell stories,

01:10:55

to, you know, that makes it work, and I'll go rewatch it, and I'll sort of break it down sometimes. I'll I'll try it myself.

to, you know, that makes it work, and I'll go rewatch it, and I'll sort of break it down sometimes. I'll I'll try it myself.

01:11:01

Like, for example, when I did that Luna video, I did it in the style of, like, this John Oliver or Hassan Manage, like, skits. And mine is, like, you know, ten times worse. And I texted it to Hudson. He was, like, Cool. Change these ninety five things. And I was like, dude, that's a lot to change. I'm just gonna ship it. Like, you know, I I don't I don't have time to do all that, but, like, Now that you've told me this, I now know what I should have done, but it's just those reps. Like, it's

Like, for example, when I did that Luna video, I did it in the style of, like, this John Oliver or Hassan Manage, like, skits. And mine is, like, you know, ten times worse. And I texted it to Hudson. He was, like, Cool. Change these ninety five things. And I was like, dude, that's a lot to change. I'm just gonna ship it. Like, you know, I I don't I don't have time to do all that, but, like, Now that you've told me this, I now know what I should have done, but it's just those reps. Like, it's

01:11:27

talent

talent

01:11:27

helps But then there's reps, and people don't really see the reps. And I would say, like, that combination of the three things I mentioned, like, being around people who are who are better at it than you, and you admire them, that plants a little seed inside you. Right? Like, Austin, you were talking about that with money. Like, when you met people with more money, it was desiring. And you're like, oh, wow. My world opened up. I now have

helps But then there's reps, and people don't really see the reps. And I would say, like, that combination of the three things I mentioned, like, being around people who are who are better at it than you, and you admire them, that plants a little seed inside you. Right? Like, Austin, you were talking about that with money. Like, when you met people with more money, it was desiring. And you're like, oh, wow. My world opened up. I now have

01:11:47

Like, people I can sort of, like, you know,

Like, people I can sort of, like, you know,

01:11:50

I I could try to embody a blueprint that that that maybe they have,

I I could try to embody a blueprint that that that maybe they have,

01:11:54

to to something I want. That's how it was with storytelling and sort of like, I don't know, charisma or something like that for me. And so that, you know, being around people who need to admire

to to something I want. That's how it was with storytelling and sort of like, I don't know, charisma or something like that for me. And so that, you know, being around people who need to admire

01:12:03

putting yourself in unusual situations that are, like, kind of intensives, like improv or acting in movies, stuff like that. Most people in business don't have that experience.

putting yourself in unusual situations that are, like, kind of intensives, like improv or acting in movies, stuff like that. Most people in business don't have that experience.

01:12:12

So

So

01:12:13

they shouldn't be as good at it. Right? Like, if you've never gone through these intense experiences, then then, you know, how would you have developed those skills? Why are you asking that, Austin? Are you trying to, like, get better at talking or what? Yeah. We get better at public speaking. So twenty twenty three goal, I guess I'm going to, New York improv.

they shouldn't be as good at it. Right? Like, if you've never gone through these intense experiences, then then, you know, how would you have developed those skills? Why are you asking that, Austin? Are you trying to, like, get better at talking or what? Yeah. We get better at public speaking. So twenty twenty three goal, I guess I'm going to, New York improv.

01:12:30

Dude, I I I you're gonna probably I think some people are born better, but I think everyone can get at least good. But I do think Sean has this, like, something that will make him great. And,

Dude, I I I you're gonna probably I think some people are born better, but I think everyone can get at least good. But I do think Sean has this, like, something that will make him great. And,

01:12:41

it it it is it's very,

it it it is it's very,

01:12:43

Well, let me just put it this way. Awesome. Have you ever watched back a video of you speaking publicly in order to take notes on yourself of how you did. No.

Well, let me just put it this way. Awesome. Have you ever watched back a video of you speaking publicly in order to take notes on yourself of how you did. No.

01:12:54

Super uncomfortable feeling, but

Super uncomfortable feeling, but

01:12:56

an obvious thing to do if you wanted to get better. Right? Like, I just had that moment where I was like, oh, I'm saying I wanna get better at this. I've never done any of the obvious things you would do. Right? I've never, like, went and watched myself and said, what the hell am I doing with my hands? And why am I fidgeting so much? And I, oh, man, I keep saying, at the start of these sentences. I should just say the sentence, but, like, I had to go review the game film. Okay. Then the second thing was, like, I had to take it seriously. Like, did I just walk up there unprepared and not warm, or do I warm up, or do I prepare? Okay. That that that added to the game. And then the third one is, like, who's the best at this? And I went to a Tony Robbins event. I was, like, this guy is, like, the best public speaker I've ever seen. And even if I don't listen to any of his content, if I just literally listen to the rhythm of his words

an obvious thing to do if you wanted to get better. Right? Like, I just had that moment where I was like, oh, I'm saying I wanna get better at this. I've never done any of the obvious things you would do. Right? I've never, like, went and watched myself and said, what the hell am I doing with my hands? And why am I fidgeting so much? And I, oh, man, I keep saying, at the start of these sentences. I should just say the sentence, but, like, I had to go review the game film. Okay. Then the second thing was, like, I had to take it seriously. Like, did I just walk up there unprepared and not warm, or do I warm up, or do I prepare? Okay. That that that added to the game. And then the third one is, like, who's the best at this? And I went to a Tony Robbins event. I was, like, this guy is, like, the best public speaker I've ever seen. And even if I don't listen to any of his content, if I just literally listen to the rhythm of his words

01:13:41

and the gestures and then the the hooks and how he's getting everyone's attention,

and the gestures and then the the hooks and how he's getting everyone's attention,

01:13:45

that's a master class right there. Like, okay. I'll take that. And so that's how I started stacking up some of these things. And I don't consider myself a good public speaker because I don't do a lot of speeches or anything like that anymore. But,

that's a master class right there. Like, okay. I'll take that. And so that's how I started stacking up some of these things. And I don't consider myself a good public speaker because I don't do a lot of speeches or anything like that anymore. But,

01:13:57

it's definitely something at at a time I try to build up. And it accommodated in an epic wedding speech. I gotta say, The best speech I ever gave was at my wedding unrehearsed

it's definitely something at at a time I try to build up. And it accommodated in an epic wedding speech. I gotta say, The best speech I ever gave was at my wedding unrehearsed

01:14:06

off the dome and just, like, it was, I don't know, the perfect, the perfect speech I just retired from the game right there. At your own wedding?

off the dome and just, like, it was, I don't know, the perfect, the perfect speech I just retired from the game right there. At your own wedding?

01:14:14

At my own wedding. Yeah. Is there, is there anything else you wanna talk about Austin? This is pretty cool. You should come on more, by the way, and we should talk about newsletter shit because you're like the only person or us three are some of the very few people that, like, I actually wanna ask newsletter advice from, and like Yeah. I'm trying to get out of the the the newsletter guy branding, but just keep on bringing it out to be the newsletter guy. Dude, but it's it it is so fun. It's it's a love hate relationship. It's really they're really fun to do, but also they're painful and

At my own wedding. Yeah. Is there, is there anything else you wanna talk about Austin? This is pretty cool. You should come on more, by the way, and we should talk about newsletter shit because you're like the only person or us three are some of the very few people that, like, I actually wanna ask newsletter advice from, and like Yeah. I'm trying to get out of the the the newsletter guy branding, but just keep on bringing it out to be the newsletter guy. Dude, but it's it it is so fun. It's it's a love hate relationship. It's really they're really fun to do, but also they're painful and

01:14:43

whatever.

whatever.

01:14:44

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:14:46

No. I I think that's it. I think we we cover most of it.

No. I I think that's it. I think we we cover most of it.

01:14:49

What do you think you're gonna be doing, like, ten years from now? You're gonna you think you'll be running businesses or you're gonna be just investing or -- So what? -- or maybe business or stuff where he wants or what? So to me, it's it's Barbel. Right? I either wanna know, have some passive income and, you know, work twenty, twenty five hours a week, more casual,

What do you think you're gonna be doing, like, ten years from now? You're gonna you think you'll be running businesses or you're gonna be just investing or -- So what? -- or maybe business or stuff where he wants or what? So to me, it's it's Barbel. Right? I either wanna know, have some passive income and, you know, work twenty, twenty five hours a week, more casual,

01:15:07

or I wanna go all in. But if I go all in, it's gotta be huge. Right? The potential has to be multiple billions. I don't think I'm gonna wanna run a business where it's like, It's nice, and it's, like, a double. Right? If I win, it's a double. I don't want doubles. Right? Either when a home run or I wanna, you know, sitting the dug out and just, you know, be be part of the the peanut gallery. I don't wanna play in that middle game. I'm gonna look in the future, and I'm gonna tell you it's probably not gonna be you sitting in the dugout. That is not gonna be this is I think maybe you will for a couple years, but

or I wanna go all in. But if I go all in, it's gotta be huge. Right? The potential has to be multiple billions. I don't think I'm gonna wanna run a business where it's like, It's nice, and it's, like, a double. Right? If I win, it's a double. I don't want doubles. Right? Either when a home run or I wanna, you know, sitting the dug out and just, you know, be be part of the the peanut gallery. I don't wanna play in that middle game. I'm gonna look in the future, and I'm gonna tell you it's probably not gonna be you sitting in the dugout. That is not gonna be this is I think maybe you will for a couple years, but

01:15:39

if I have to make a bet and I would put my money when I'm out this, it's not gonna be that one. That's not what you're gonna do. We'll see. Well, thanks for coming on, dude. This is awesome. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Let's do it again soon.

if I have to make a bet and I would put my money when I'm out this, it's not gonna be that one. That's not what you're gonna do. We'll see. Well, thanks for coming on, dude. This is awesome. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Let's do it again soon.

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