00:00

There's a lot of online communities. Anyone can start wanting to get a few hundred people together. There's so few people who've not only run-in person events, but who do them well. And if you can do that, it is an incredible competitive advantage.

There's a lot of online communities. Anyone can start wanting to get a few hundred people together. There's so few people who've not only run-in person events, but who do them well. And if you can do that, it is an incredible competitive advantage.

00:24

Okay.

Okay.

00:26

Sean's not here. What are we gonna talk about?

Sean's not here. What are we gonna talk about?

00:29

A few things. Oh, let me tell you something. Sorry. I asked you a question that I interrupted you, but let me tell you something. So

A few things. Oh, let me tell you something. Sorry. I asked you a question that I interrupted you, but let me tell you something. So

00:35

I'm doing something cool in ten days.

I'm doing something cool in ten days.

00:39

So

So

00:40

on the pod and on Twitter, I talked about how I'm buying a piece of property, and I'm turning it into like a thing.

on the pod and on Twitter, I talked about how I'm buying a piece of property, and I'm turning it into like a thing.

00:46

Like a like a hotel Airbnb fitness thing.

Like a like a hotel Airbnb fitness thing.

00:50

I had this guy. I'm not gonna say who it is yet because I haven't asked his permission, but basically he bought

I had this guy. I'm not gonna say who it is yet because I haven't asked his permission, but basically he bought

00:56

like, five thousand acres

like, five thousand acres

00:58

in the south in a in a state in the south. Let's say Georgia.

in the south in a in a state in the south. Let's say Georgia.

01:03

And he is turning it into an airline

And he is turning it into an airline

01:07

hotel

hotel

01:08

or a airline neighborhood

or a airline neighborhood

01:11

soon with hotels. So, basically, they're putting an airstrip in the middle of this piece of property and then they're lining up houses

soon with hotels. So, basically, they're putting an airstrip in the middle of this piece of property and then they're lining up houses

01:18

along it So, you could buy a house, and then soon it's gonna be a hotel, and then they're gonna have an airplane hangar there. So for all airplane enthusiasts, you can keep your plane there and take off and land on this, you know, right outside your home. So it's basically like having a a a house on a golf course,

along it So, you could buy a house, and then soon it's gonna be a hotel, and then they're gonna have an airplane hangar there. So for all airplane enthusiasts, you can keep your plane there and take off and land on this, you know, right outside your home. So it's basically like having a a a house on a golf course,

01:33

except instead of a golf course, it's an airplane

except instead of a golf course, it's an airplane

01:37

runway and hangar, but here's the kicker.

runway and hangar, but here's the kicker.

01:40

He asked me if I wanted to come check it out. And I said, yeah. Sure. He goes, alright. Meet me. At the Teeterborough

He asked me if I wanted to come check it out. And I said, yeah. Sure. He goes, alright. Meet me. At the Teeterborough

01:45

airport

airport

01:46

in the like outside of New York on, you know, January twenty fifth, and we'll fly my jet down.

in the like outside of New York on, you know, January twenty fifth, and we'll fly my jet down.

01:52

So I'm flying private down. I'm gonna go up to New York just to fly back down just like it creates it. But Nice. Isn't that isn't that sick? So is this

So I'm flying private down. I'm gonna go up to New York just to fly back down just like it creates it. But Nice. Isn't that isn't that sick? So is this

02:03

is it like super rural or is it, kinda just outside of a major metropolitan area? It's an hour and a half outside of a major area.

is it like super rural or is it, kinda just outside of a major metropolitan area? It's an hour and a half outside of a major area.

02:11

Got it. So and most of these people most of these houses, is this gonna be these people's, like, full time residents, you think?

Got it. So and most of these people most of these houses, is this gonna be these people's, like, full time residents, you think?

02:18

No.

No.

02:19

No. Probably not. It's a lot of, like, older people. You don't have to be you don't have to be, like, rich, rich, to do this, I think you have to, like, be able to afford a two hundred thousand dollar plane or something like that. That could be your hobby. So you have to have some money, but it's not, like, gonna be necessarily, like, incredibly wealthy people.

No. Probably not. It's a lot of, like, older people. You don't have to be you don't have to be, like, rich, rich, to do this, I think you have to, like, be able to afford a two hundred thousand dollar plane or something like that. That could be your hobby. So you have to have some money, but it's not, like, gonna be necessarily, like, incredibly wealthy people.

02:37

Yeah. So enough to afford, like, assessment or something like that. And you can just fly in and it's just somewhere to fly and then you stay by your airport and just hang out and chill. Yeah. That's kinda neat. Right? Yeah. It is kinda cool. How much do you think he's in on this project?

Yeah. So enough to afford, like, assessment or something like that. And you can just fly in and it's just somewhere to fly and then you stay by your airport and just hang out and chill. Yeah. That's kinda neat. Right? Yeah. It is kinda cool. How much do you think he's in on this project?

02:53

I'll I'll say it and then if he says I can't, but, nearly eight figures is the money that he's had to use his own money to do that, and then he'll, raise some more money.

I'll I'll say it and then if he says I can't, but, nearly eight figures is the money that he's had to use his own money to do that, and then he'll, raise some more money.

03:03

And then how many houses is it? And he was, like, he was, like, oh, it's just like a side project. And I was, like, What? That is huge. That is it.

And then how many houses is it? And he was, like, he was, like, oh, it's just like a side project. And I was, like, What? That is huge. That is it.

03:12

How rich is your friend? And what what does this represent for him? I don't know. I just met him.

How rich is your friend? And what what does this represent for him? I don't know. I just met him.

03:17

Not

Not

03:18

like, wealthy enough to be able to afford that, but not wealthy enough to, like, I I like, if he loses that, it's not it's, like, will be really bad.

like, wealthy enough to be able to afford that, but not wealthy enough to, like, I I like, if he loses that, it's not it's, like, will be really bad.

03:26

Do you own any, like vacation homes, secondary homes, or anything like that?

Do you own any, like vacation homes, secondary homes, or anything like that?

03:30

Well, no. No. I own,

Well, no. No. I own,

03:33

my house that I live in, I own and then I own some,

my house that I live in, I own and then I own some,

03:37

like, rentals

like, rentals

03:38

and, like,

and, like,

03:40

now a vacant lot that I'm building a house on to sell.

now a vacant lot that I'm building a house on to sell.

03:43

But nothing like this. No playing vacation home. No. No. I don't I don't I think that vacation homes

But nothing like this. No playing vacation home. No. No. I don't I don't I think that vacation homes

03:51

only make sense.

only make sense.

03:53

For me, personally, it only makes sense to me if I buy them and rent them out. And so if I can find a place in New York or California that I like, and I could rent it out and make a profit then I would do it. So I I met this guy the other day who was a billionaire or close to a billionaire, and this person has,

For me, personally, it only makes sense to me if I buy them and rent them out. And so if I can find a place in New York or California that I like, and I could rent it out and make a profit then I would do it. So I I met this guy the other day who was a billionaire or close to a billionaire, and this person has,

04:08

an apartment. They don't live in New York, but they have an there and it's really fancy, and then they have a place in Park City, and they rent it out when when they're not there, and it pays for itself. And they're still, like, it's like a wealthy person. I think that's the way to go is you. But not everyone's comfortable doing that.

an apartment. They don't live in New York, but they have an there and it's really fancy, and then they have a place in Park City, and they rent it out when when they're not there, and it pays for itself. And they're still, like, it's like a wealthy person. I think that's the way to go is you. But not everyone's comfortable doing that.

04:23

It's interesting to me because this idea that you're describing sounds like the inverse of what I would want. Like, I want to be able to fly places

It's interesting to me because this idea that you're describing sounds like the inverse of what I would want. Like, I want to be able to fly places

04:31

so that I could stay there. Like, I wanna fly to New York so I can go to New York, but this is the opposite. They're setting up somewhere to stay so that they can fly. Does that make sense? Well, it's not just that. Just imagine you're, like, sixty five years old and, like, you wanna, like, spend the weekend at this area and you wanna fly there and stay there and hang out. And then go on trips throughout the day and just hang out with a bunch of other airplane nerds that are like you. Yeah. Sure. So it's like if you're, like, sixty five and this is your passion, I think I think that people who are into this shit are so into it that they just wanna be around other people who are into it.

so that I could stay there. Like, I wanna fly to New York so I can go to New York, but this is the opposite. They're setting up somewhere to stay so that they can fly. Does that make sense? Well, it's not just that. Just imagine you're, like, sixty five years old and, like, you wanna, like, spend the weekend at this area and you wanna fly there and stay there and hang out. And then go on trips throughout the day and just hang out with a bunch of other airplane nerds that are like you. Yeah. Sure. So it's like if you're, like, sixty five and this is your passion, I think I think that people who are into this shit are so into it that they just wanna be around other people who are into it.

05:03

Yeah. I think there are a lot of opportunities like this as people as more and more people, because you it looks it sounds like this is mostly retirees, but I think you could also do it towards

Yeah. I think there are a lot of opportunities like this as people as more and more people, because you it looks it sounds like this is mostly retirees, but I think you could also do it towards

05:12

remote workers,

remote workers,

05:14

of just like

of just like

05:16

people have lived places for no particular reason in the past, and I

people have lived places for no particular reason in the past, and I

05:20

think as people can now choose where they wanna live, they're gonna start congregating more in

think as people can now choose where they wanna live, they're gonna start congregating more in

05:26

groups of, like, I don't know, group around their hobbies, or like vegans, how they wanna eat, I don't know, like random niches. I agree. I think that will happen too. The the day that New York allows short term rentals. So in New York, you're not allowed to rent under thirty days,

groups of, like, I don't know, group around their hobbies, or like vegans, how they wanna eat, I don't know, like random niches. I agree. I think that will happen too. The the day that New York allows short term rentals. So in New York, you're not allowed to rent under thirty days,

05:41

or you gotta, like, jump through crazy hoops, but the data that's allowed, I'll be buying a place there.

or you gotta, like, jump through crazy hoops, but the data that's allowed, I'll be buying a place there.

05:47

But not not until that's allowed. Oh, okay. You wanna talk about this, Elizabeth's home home thing?

But not not until that's allowed. Oh, okay. You wanna talk about this, Elizabeth's home home thing?

05:53

Yes. I do.

Yes. I do.

05:54

So you you sent this to me. Well, you wanna give the backstory?

So you you sent this to me. Well, you wanna give the backstory?

05:57

Well, let's say what happened yesterday.

Well, let's say what happened yesterday.

06:01

So,

So,

06:02

yesterday, you sent a post to me and Sean. That you were on the front page of hacker news.

yesterday, you sent a post to me and Sean. That you were on the front page of hacker news.

06:09

Yes. What I meant is they had

Yes. What I meant is they had

06:11

go ahead. I meant, like, what happened to homes yesterday?

go ahead. I meant, like, what happened to homes yesterday?

06:14

Oh, so Elizabeth Holmes,

Oh, so Elizabeth Holmes,

06:16

convicted of, like, three or four crimes.

convicted of, like, three or four crimes.

06:20

I don't know if she's been sentenced yet, but she could serve. She will serve years. Of of hard time.

I don't know if she's been sentenced yet, but she could serve. She will serve years. Of of hard time.

06:25

Potentially up to twenty years.

Potentially up to twenty years.

06:27

Yes. Well, there's twenty there's three three counts that were

Yes. Well, there's twenty there's three three counts that were

06:32

carry sentences up to twenty years and one that carries up to five. So I don't know if those are additive or if it's only up to twenty. I don't know how that works. But yeah.

carry sentences up to twenty years and one that carries up to five. So I don't know if those are additive or if it's only up to twenty. I don't know how that works. But yeah.

06:40

Yeah. And what happened yesterday? It actually happened on Sunday night. I got a text from a friend who goes, Hey, you're on the front page of hacker news. If you don't go to hacker news, it's basically like Reddit, but, like, if I said Reddit for nerds, you would be shocked because Reddit is for nerds, but this is, like, really for nerds, like, nerd nerds. It's all, like, computer nerds, and of which I am one of them. And I,

Yeah. And what happened yesterday? It actually happened on Sunday night. I got a text from a friend who goes, Hey, you're on the front page of hacker news. If you don't go to hacker news, it's basically like Reddit, but, like, if I said Reddit for nerds, you would be shocked because Reddit is for nerds, but this is, like, really for nerds, like, nerd nerds. It's all, like, computer nerds, and of which I am one of them. And I,

07:03

I got a text saying that my article that I wrote in two thousand and fifteen

I got a text saying that my article that I wrote in two thousand and fifteen

07:08

was on the front page of Reddit. Or on hacker news, and it was getting which means you'll get millions of visitors.

was on the front page of Reddit. Or on hacker news, and it was getting which means you'll get millions of visitors.

07:15

And the headline to my article was

And the headline to my article was

07:18

the coverage

the coverage

07:19

of Theranos

of Theranos

07:20

is utter bullshit, and I wrote this article defending Theranos,

is utter bullshit, and I wrote this article defending Theranos,

07:25

Theranos, and defending Elizabeth Holmes.

Theranos, and defending Elizabeth Holmes.

07:28

And

And

07:29

it did not age well. That article.

it did not age well. That article.

07:32

But

But

07:33

let me explain with the article. Do you have the article in front of I I I just wanna talk about my favorite,

let me explain with the article. Do you have the article in front of I I I just wanna talk about my favorite,

07:39

like, sub headline, which is

like, sub headline, which is

07:42

you called it a minor PR hiccup.

you called it a minor PR hiccup.

07:45

Yeah.

Yeah.

07:46

So I call this a minor PR hiccup. So I wrote this in two so I was, like, twenty four, I think, or twenty five when I wrote this. So whatever, you know, I've grown. And I read my writing and I was like, oh my god. I I went bad then, but I'm way better now. And so I was a little embarrassed. But,

So I call this a minor PR hiccup. So I wrote this in two so I was, like, twenty four, I think, or twenty five when I wrote this. So whatever, you know, I've grown. And I read my writing and I was like, oh my god. I I went bad then, but I'm way better now. And so I was a little embarrassed. But,

08:02

the article basically was written after people accused homes of, at first, doing something wrong,

the article basically was written after people accused homes of, at first, doing something wrong,

08:09

and they were hating on her, but previously in the in the previous month and the previous few years, she was on the cover of all these same magazines.

and they were hating on her, but previously in the in the previous month and the previous few years, she was on the cover of all these same magazines.

08:18

And the point of my article

And the point of my article

08:20

was on the on the on the surface, it looked like I was defending her, and I was defending her. But what I really was also doing and I say this in article is as I was

was on the on the on the surface, it looked like I was defending her, and I was defending her. But what I really was also doing and I say this in article is as I was

08:29

defending this idea that, like, it's I think it's nonsense and crazy that we build these people up and say that they're, like, the next, you know, the next steve jobs or whatever it is. And we like want small businesses to win and someone starts a business and we want them to win. But then once they get really successful or potentially like, they're considered like a winner we turn on them and we just hate them just because they're doing something like that seems really weird and they talk funny or they look funny

defending this idea that, like, it's I think it's nonsense and crazy that we build these people up and say that they're, like, the next, you know, the next steve jobs or whatever it is. And we like want small businesses to win and someone starts a business and we want them to win. But then once they get really successful or potentially like, they're considered like a winner we turn on them and we just hate them just because they're doing something like that seems really weird and they talk funny or they look funny

08:58

And I thought that's bullshit. So I stand by that second half because now that's even the whole anti tech is thing is even bigger.

And I thought that's bullshit. So I stand by that second half because now that's even the whole anti tech is thing is even bigger.

09:06

But, yeah, I was wrong. I I was so wrong about her.

But, yeah, I was wrong. I I was so wrong about her.

09:10

Yeah. It's just you see so many cases of

Yeah. It's just you see so many cases of

09:13

a lot of these hit pieces that are totally not fair to founders,

a lot of these hit pieces that are totally not fair to founders,

09:16

that,

that,

09:17

like, your guard was up

like, your guard was up

09:19

enough that you didn't see that. This was the time that they were actually right. She fooled me, man. She fooled me. She

enough that you didn't see that. This was the time that they were actually right. She fooled me, man. She fooled me. She

09:26

fucking sunk you in with her deep voice and those big eyes.

fucking sunk you in with her deep voice and those big eyes.

09:29

Dude, she got me. I was so on board. The reason here's why I was on board with And the reason why I was on board with it is really,

Dude, she got me. I was so on board. The reason here's why I was on board with And the reason why I was on board with it is really,

09:36

I can't decide if it's a good reason or bad reason. And then you tell me. So their biggest backer was Tim Draper.

I can't decide if it's a good reason or bad reason. And then you tell me. So their biggest backer was Tim Draper.

09:42

I don't know Tim, but I used to be friends with his son and his friend's son Billy is an awesome dude. And from what I've read about Tim, Tim seems amazing.

I don't know Tim, but I used to be friends with his son and his friend's son Billy is an awesome dude. And from what I've read about Tim, Tim seems amazing.

09:50

I know that he's like this, like, high integrity,

I know that he's like this, like, high integrity,

09:53

very honest person. He seems like a great guy. He don't party on drink, and he's known for, like, being one of the first investors in SpaceX. I believe first investor in Hotmail. So a bunch of these, like, really amazing companies that help found the internet and create the internet and and everything. And he was super on board with Theranos for a long time. And so I was thinking,

very honest person. He seems like a great guy. He don't party on drink, and he's known for, like, being one of the first investors in SpaceX. I believe first investor in Hotmail. So a bunch of these, like, really amazing companies that help found the internet and create the internet and and everything. And he was super on board with Theranos for a long time. And so I was thinking,

10:14

well, there's no way that Tim Draper would do something,

well, there's no way that Tim Draper would do something,

10:17

or, like, would be tricked by this because he obviously didn't know. But he's, like, there's no way that Tim would be tricked by this. And that's why I was, like, on board.

or, like, would be tricked by this because he obviously didn't know. But he's, like, there's no way that Tim would be tricked by this. And that's why I was, like, on board.

10:26

Yeah. And just to back you up, just reading from the article, it's expected that a young company that's attempting to change of an archaic industry will mess up. It appears that Theranos made a bunch of mistakes, and I'm not defending their actions. I'm also not saying that the media shouldn't point out the truths about Theranos's mistakes. You know, you just go on to say,

Yeah. And just to back you up, just reading from the article, it's expected that a young company that's attempting to change of an archaic industry will mess up. It appears that Theranos made a bunch of mistakes, and I'm not defending their actions. I'm also not saying that the media shouldn't point out the truths about Theranos's mistakes. You know, you just go on to say,

10:44

talk about how the the cycle kind of flipped on them. So, yeah. I mean,

talk about how the the cycle kind of flipped on them. So, yeah. I mean,

10:49

It is true what you're saying, but it is still funny to have an article up

It is true what you're saying, but it is still funny to have an article up

10:53

with that headline. And I didn't delete it on purpose. So,

with that headline. And I didn't delete it on purpose. So,

10:56

Brown three years ago, someone made fun of me, for that article. And I was like, I'm not deleting that. We'll keep it up. It's alright. I got it wrong. If I'm gonna if I'm gonna take swings, I gotta let people see the misses too.

Brown three years ago, someone made fun of me, for that article. And I was like, I'm not deleting that. We'll keep it up. It's alright. I got it wrong. If I'm gonna if I'm gonna take swings, I gotta let people see the misses too.

11:08

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely.

11:11

Alright. Wanna go one more topic?

Alright. Wanna go one more topic?

11:13

Yeah. We got four minutes. So

Yeah. We got four minutes. So

11:15

Alright. So you tweeted out something that was pretty cool. What was it?

Alright. So you tweeted out something that was pretty cool. What was it?

11:20

Okay. So it was essentially, we started a new family tradition in my family this year.

Okay. So it was essentially, we started a new family tradition in my family this year.

11:25

Which is and it was just my wife and I doing it because

Which is and it was just my wife and I doing it because

11:29

we we we started we're gonna try and roll out to my siblings and my parents. But didn't she make a presentation?

we we we started we're gonna try and roll out to my siblings and my parents. But didn't she make a presentation?

11:35

Yes. So

Yes. So

11:36

what it is is that I decided it was kind of my idea that at the end of the year, we're gonna make presentations

what it is is that I decided it was kind of my idea that at the end of the year, we're gonna make presentations

11:43

about how the past year went and essentially what our goals are for the coming year and our resolutions and that type of stuff, and we're gonna present it at, like, a family board meeting. It could be slide deck. It could be like a memo, but it's essentially called the board meeting. Family board is sitting there, and you have to present on your ear. It looked like she was presenting to a bunch of people.

about how the past year went and essentially what our goals are for the coming year and our resolutions and that type of stuff, and we're gonna present it at, like, a family board meeting. It could be slide deck. It could be like a memo, but it's essentially called the board meeting. Family board is sitting there, and you have to present on your ear. It looked like she was presenting to a bunch of people.

12:02

Yeah. It was just you. Yeah. It was just me. Oh my god.

Yeah. It was just you. Yeah. It was just me. Oh my god.

12:06

And but Okay. So and I should say we're not totally crazy. Like, we did it kind of funny. Alright? I dressed up as steve jobs. I turned the black mask.

And but Okay. So and I should say we're not totally crazy. Like, we did it kind of funny. Alright? I dressed up as steve jobs. I turned the black mask.

12:15

Gold glasses,

Gold glasses,

12:17

I'm not criticizing you. I think it's cool. No. I just thought somebody gave the wrong idea that we were, like, getting hardcore going over our numbers. Like, a lot of it was, was kinda funny. Was played for chuckles, but it was a good opportunity to just reflect on what we've done and, and what we hope to do this year and, and,

I'm not criticizing you. I think it's cool. No. I just thought somebody gave the wrong idea that we were, like, getting hardcore going over our numbers. Like, a lot of it was, was kinda funny. Was played for chuckles, but it was a good opportunity to just reflect on what we've done and, and what we hope to do this year and, and,

12:34

and go over it. So what was the,

and go over it. So what was the,

12:36

did is that effective?

did is that effective?

12:39

Yeah. I mean, some of the stuff so let let me read some of this stuff, actually.

Yeah. I mean, some of the stuff so let let me read some of this stuff, actually.

12:44

Me. It's terrible. I do the same I do the same thing.

Me. It's terrible. I do the same I do the same thing.

12:47

So

So

12:48

my wife

my wife

12:50

actually collects the stats.

actually collects the stats.

12:52

And your wife's pretty alpha. Right?

And your wife's pretty alpha. Right?

12:54

Yeah. She graduated from,

Yeah. She graduated from,

12:57

a top law school in the country. And then Which point? Works for

a top law school in the country. And then Which point? Works for

13:03

Georgetown.

Georgetown.

13:04

Pretty fancy.

Pretty fancy.

13:06

Yeah. It's good it's good law school. And then she works for a big law firm now. So she took stats. She, like, tracks

Yeah. It's good it's good law school. And then she works for a big law firm now. So she took stats. She, like, tracks

13:13

all her mother stuff because we had a baby last November.

all her mother stuff because we had a baby last November.

13:18

And so I couldn't believe some of the stuff. So, like, gallons of milk that her body produced in two thousand twenty one.

And so I couldn't believe some of the stuff. So, like, gallons of milk that her body produced in two thousand twenty one.

13:26

Three hundred and fifty.

Three hundred and fifty.

13:28

Gross. Isn't that crazy? How does the body do that? That is crazy.

Gross. Isn't that crazy? How does the body do that? That is crazy.

13:33

I know. That's that blew my mind. Three hundred pounds. Oh my god. So much. It's so much. So you're that's hilarious. You track how much a bulk your wife made

I know. That's that blew my mind. Three hundred pounds. Oh my god. So much. It's so much. So you're that's hilarious. You track how much a bulk your wife made

13:43

Yeah. She also kept track of how many nights she slept on the floor in our daughter's room because, like, sometimes she wouldn't sleep. And so a hundred and four nights almost a third of the year. Yeah. She slept on the floor in Claire's room.

Yeah. She also kept track of how many nights she slept on the floor in our daughter's room because, like, sometimes she wouldn't sleep. And so a hundred and four nights almost a third of the year. Yeah. She slept on the floor in Claire's room.

13:56

The number of hours she spent nursing her was eighteen hundred.

The number of hours she spent nursing her was eighteen hundred.

14:00

And then we track Wait. Eighteen hundred in one year.

And then we track Wait. Eighteen hundred in one year.

14:03

Yeah.

Yeah.

14:04

Wow. Man, being a woman is so much harder.

Wow. Man, being a woman is so much harder.

14:08

I know. That that did help me realize, like, wow. That's just, like, that's another job in addition to your job. Like Holy moly.

I know. That that did help me realize, like, wow. That's just, like, that's another job in addition to your job. Like Holy moly.

14:16

That's crazy. What else?

That's crazy. What else?

14:18

Any other questions? Yeah.

Any other questions? Yeah.

14:21

She counted the number of times. My daughter was obsessed with this book monsters come out tonight, which is Halloween book. She read it sixty two times.

She counted the number of times. My daughter was obsessed with this book monsters come out tonight, which is Halloween book. She read it sixty two times.

14:29

Why does she do all this? Your wife, just because she wants to show your kids.

Why does she do all this? Your wife, just because she wants to show your kids.

14:33

I don't know. I she's just compulsive, actually. She is,

I don't know. I she's just compulsive, actually. She is,

14:38

she's the type of person where in the morning, she'll go, do you know what today is? And I never know because she always knows weird anniversaries in her head. She's like, oh, it's

she's the type of person where in the morning, she'll go, do you know what today is? And I never know because she always knows weird anniversaries in her head. She's like, oh, it's

14:46

it's ten months since this happened. And I'm like, how do you know that?

it's ten months since this happened. And I'm like, how do you know that?

14:51

But she, like, compulsively tracks little numbers in her head. So she apparently tracks him on her phone too. Did your wife's rain man? That's sick. She's like,

But she, like, compulsively tracks little numbers in her head. So she apparently tracks him on her phone too. Did your wife's rain man? That's sick. She's like,

15:01

Like a lactating and rainy man. That's lovely.

Like a lactating and rainy man. That's lovely.

15:06

Well, I might have to delete that. I don't know. I I'll have to think hard before I decide whether to publish an episode in which we call her a lactating rain man.

Well, I might have to delete that. I don't know. I I'll have to think hard before I decide whether to publish an episode in which we call her a lactating rain man.

15:13

That's cool. So what do you mean? You mean as a compliment, though. Right? You mean as a compliment? Yeah. Well, it's either a compliment well, the Rayman is, the lactating thing is just fact.

That's cool. So what do you mean? You mean as a compliment, though. Right? You mean as a compliment? Yeah. Well, it's either a compliment well, the Rayman is, the lactating thing is just fact.

15:22

The Rayman thing is definitely a compliment.

The Rayman thing is definitely a compliment.

15:25

Do,

Do,

15:26

Do do you is she care is she earning more than you as you start your business?

Do do you is she care is she earning more than you as you start your business?

15:32

Yes.

Yes.

15:33

That's pretty sick. Right?

That's pretty sick. Right?

15:35

It's nice. I don't mind it.

It's nice. I don't mind it.

15:37

You,

You,

15:38

is she paying for everything?

is she paying for everything?

15:41

No. So she's actually still net negative because she just graduated in,

No. So she's actually still net negative because she just graduated in,

15:47

whatever in the summer and didn't start school until October. So

whatever in the summer and didn't start school until October. So

15:54

I my goal is for us to never have a year where she earns more than me, not for any, like, sexist reasons. I just, you know, that's a gold mine. So I gotta make more money than her this year. But, yeah, and, the last quarter of last year, she made more money than me. So alright. And that's actually

I my goal is for us to never have a year where she earns more than me, not for any, like, sexist reasons. I just, you know, that's a gold mine. So I gotta make more money than her this year. But, yeah, and, the last quarter of last year, she made more money than me. So alright. And that's actually

16:11

Like, I think there's a lot of guys who are self conscious about that. I,

Like, I think there's a lot of guys who are self conscious about that. I,

16:15

feel the opposite. I'm like, I want you Like, I wanna be the lazier of the like, I want her to earn more and just maybe, like, not have to work.

feel the opposite. I'm like, I want you Like, I wanna be the lazier of the like, I want her to earn more and just maybe, like, not have to work.

16:24

I am self conscious about it. I

I am self conscious about it. I

16:27

I do like, I'm happy for her to have a career, but, like, it's not so much of, like,

I do like, I'm happy for her to have a career, but, like, it's not so much of, like,

16:32

self conscious about her making money, but it is, like, a little bit of, like,

self conscious about her making money, but it is, like, a little bit of, like,

16:36

Step it up. You gotta get your business into a place where you're out earning me. Like, look what I'm out here doing. You know?

Step it up. You gotta get your business into a place where you're out earning me. Like, look what I'm out here doing. You know?

16:41

That's sick, though. It's pretty sick. I think You know how, like, there's articles that talk about, like, your best financial decision.

That's sick, though. It's pretty sick. I think You know how, like, there's articles that talk about, like, your best financial decision.

16:48

My opinion is the best financial decision you can make. Of course, this is a good decision for a lot of other reasons. The best financial decision is marrying the right woman.

My opinion is the best financial decision you can make. Of course, this is a good decision for a lot of other reasons. The best financial decision is marrying the right woman.

16:57

Amen?

Amen?

16:58

Or picking the right spouse rather.

Or picking the right spouse rather.

17:00

Or just staying married. Right? Had did you have you read their millionaire next door where they're like No. What did they say? It they look at all these factors that, like, most millionaires have, and this is not Silicon Valley millionaires. It's like auctioneers and construction comp you know, company owners. And they say, like, here are all these factors, like, most have never purchased a suit for more than I think it's, like, eight hundred dollars. Most have never paid more than two hundred dollars for a watch. Most in the vast, vast majority of them never got divorced.

Or just staying married. Right? Had did you have you read their millionaire next door where they're like No. What did they say? It they look at all these factors that, like, most millionaires have, and this is not Silicon Valley millionaires. It's like auctioneers and construction comp you know, company owners. And they say, like, here are all these factors, like, most have never purchased a suit for more than I think it's, like, eight hundred dollars. Most have never paid more than two hundred dollars for a watch. Most in the vast, vast majority of them never got divorced.

17:26

Don't get divorced then. That's great. Crazy.

Don't get divorced then. That's great. Crazy.

17:28

And I think even if you get a prenup, I don't think that that, like, it it doesn't does a prenup only work for the earnings that you made before you got married? Yes. So then who cares in most cases? Exactly. Because you get I got married at twenty five. I was worth jack shit. Right? And it's like all the money that I've made in my life has been since I've got I've been married twenty one years. So Does a prenup cover if you start a business and it's worth nothing then you get married and ten years later, it's worth a lot. Does that is this which one does that count as?

And I think even if you get a prenup, I don't think that that, like, it it doesn't does a prenup only work for the earnings that you made before you got married? Yes. So then who cares in most cases? Exactly. Because you get I got married at twenty five. I was worth jack shit. Right? And it's like all the money that I've made in my life has been since I've got I've been married twenty one years. So Does a prenup cover if you start a business and it's worth nothing then you get married and ten years later, it's worth a lot. Does that is this which one does that count as?

17:58

That, I do not know. What I do know is a friend of mine got married,

That, I do not know. What I do know is a friend of mine got married,

18:02

got a prenup, and he had crypto.

got a prenup, and he had crypto.

18:05

And he specified,

And he specified,

18:06

like, this my hundreds of Bitcoin

like, this my hundreds of Bitcoin

18:09

are excluded, and they've gone up in values, and they're still excluded. But I don't know if company shares act the same way.

are excluded, and they've gone up in values, and they're still excluded. But I don't know if company shares act the same way.

18:16

I would guess they would, but, you know, we'd have to get a lawyer on here. Why are we covering?

I would guess they would, but, you know, we'd have to get a lawyer on here. Why are we covering?

18:23

It's like the worst.

It's like the worst.

18:24

Sad topic. No. Here's why we're covering it because,

Sad topic. No. Here's why we're covering it because,

18:28

Ben's Ben quit his job to start a podcast

Ben's Ben quit his job to start a podcast

18:32

a popular, a podcast that's going pretty well, and he works for us part time as a per our producer. And he his wife is a very successful lawyer, and I asked him said, you know, like, a lot of men might be self conscious about that, about your wife earning significantly more than you. How does it make you feel? And,

a popular, a podcast that's going pretty well, and he works for us part time as a per our producer. And he his wife is a very successful lawyer, and I asked him said, you know, like, a lot of men might be self conscious about that, about your wife earning significantly more than you. How does it make you feel? And,

18:48

I we're I was just curious.

I we're I was just curious.

18:50

Has your wife ever earned more than you Rob?

Has your wife ever earned more than you Rob?

18:54

Oh, that's a good question.

Oh, that's a good question.

18:56

Well, your business is a family business is kinda right.

Well, your business is a family business is kinda right.

19:00

Yeah. I mean, she runs her own thing. Dude, I actually think I mean, yes. So when I left Drift two years ago, I sold the company and then I left it in twenty eighteen, I didn't work for six months, but it's, like, so I wasn't hurting anything. But then even after that, like, starting tiny seed, I didn't take a paycheck for a year, and she was making several hundred grand at her business. So Yes. She has, but it's also like, yeah, but I sold a comp. I think I'm excused at this point, you know.

Yeah. I mean, she runs her own thing. Dude, I actually think I mean, yes. So when I left Drift two years ago, I sold the company and then I left it in twenty eighteen, I didn't work for six months, but it's, like, so I wasn't hurting anything. But then even after that, like, starting tiny seed, I didn't take a paycheck for a year, and she was making several hundred grand at her business. So Yes. She has, but it's also like, yeah, but I sold a comp. I think I'm excused at this point, you know.

19:23

I, my wife became a millionaire, a a liquid millionaire before I did. That's awesome. Because of By two months. Was it? Was it like stock or what what you have? She worked at Airbnb for a long time and then public in December, and I sold my company in February. So she beat me by two months. You didn't feel you didn't feel bad about that at all, did you? Dude, I was pumped for her. I was so I mean, the the way that everything is ours. So it it was like, frankly, when she got paid, I was like, oh, I just got paid too. I mean, I thought it was awesome.

I, my wife became a millionaire, a a liquid millionaire before I did. That's awesome. Because of By two months. Was it? Was it like stock or what what you have? She worked at Airbnb for a long time and then public in December, and I sold my company in February. So she beat me by two months. You didn't feel you didn't feel bad about that at all, did you? Dude, I was pumped for her. I was so I mean, the the way that everything is ours. So it it was like, frankly, when she got paid, I was like, oh, I just got paid too. I mean, I thought it was awesome.

19:51

We're live now, by the way, Rob. Oh, great. Are you okay with that? Absolutely, sir. I'm always I'm always. I was born ready. Yeah. So,

We're live now, by the way, Rob. Oh, great. Are you okay with that? Absolutely, sir. I'm always I'm always. I was born ready. Yeah. So,

19:59

this is Rob Walling. Rob, you

this is Rob Walling. Rob, you

20:02

You I was just on your pod, like,

You I was just on your pod, like,

20:04

two weeks ago. Did it go well?

two weeks ago. Did it go well?

20:06

Yeah. Well, I got a lot of positive feedback actually. What was interesting is someone said a couple people said, you guys have real great rapport. And I said, which is funny because we've never met. It's not like we're best friends, but they said you sounded like you were friends, you're naturals, you know, and I said, I think it's it's easy to have a podcast are on a show because they're just entertaining naturally.

Yeah. Well, I got a lot of positive feedback actually. What was interesting is someone said a couple people said, you guys have real great rapport. And I said, which is funny because we've never met. It's not like we're best friends, but they said you sounded like you were friends, you're naturals, you know, and I said, I think it's it's easy to have a podcast are on a show because they're just entertaining naturally.

20:24

And

And

20:25

I've been reading your work for, like, ten years.

I've been reading your work for, like, ten years.

20:28

And so or I forget how long, but basically, Ben, we this is Ben. Ben works with us. He's filling in for Sean today. We, I sent Rob, like, an email, like, in two thousand and I forget he, like, pulled it up, but I sent, like, up my first email to him like, years ago, saying how much I loved his content. And then I was finally on his podcast, like, eight years later. So it worked out. Yeah. And that helps that familiarity

And so or I forget how long, but basically, Ben, we this is Ben. Ben works with us. He's filling in for Sean today. We, I sent Rob, like, an email, like, in two thousand and I forget he, like, pulled it up, but I sent, like, up my first email to him like, years ago, saying how much I loved his content. And then I was finally on his podcast, like, eight years later. So it worked out. Yeah. And that helps that familiarity

20:50

certainly helps. I know that people who listen to my podcast and then appear on it know what to expect, and they're able to to roll with it, which is why before coming on here, I I I've listened to your show on and off over the years, but, like, I listened to, like, the last four episodes just so I would have some familiarity. What did you think? Oh, I think they're great. Gotta get a show here. I think you should change the name of the show. Is what I think you should I think the name's off. The name is horrible. I know. It's tough. And, man, I have, you know, my podcast is start for the rest of us, which I still like, but it feels long now, and I've debated whether to to change it. Have you guys actually considered it? Because I'm curious what would go, what would need to go into change. The problem is is

certainly helps. I know that people who listen to my podcast and then appear on it know what to expect, and they're able to to roll with it, which is why before coming on here, I I I've listened to your show on and off over the years, but, like, I listened to, like, the last four episodes just so I would have some familiarity. What did you think? Oh, I think they're great. Gotta get a show here. I think you should change the name of the show. Is what I think you should I think the name's off. The name is horrible. I know. It's tough. And, man, I have, you know, my podcast is start for the rest of us, which I still like, but it feels long now, and I've debated whether to to change it. Have you guys actually considered it? Because I'm curious what would go, what would need to go into change. The problem is is

21:31

we considered it, like, a year ago when we were smaller. But then we were like, back then, we were like, we're too big. Back when we did that, we we were at like three or four hundred

we considered it, like, a year ago when we were smaller. But then we were like, back then, we were like, we're too big. Back when we did that, we we were at like three or four hundred

21:40

thousand uniques a month and or visitor or, listeners a month. And we were like, oh, but we're too big. It already is stuck. Now we just in December, we crossed two million,

thousand uniques a month and or visitor or, listeners a month. And we were like, oh, but we're too big. It already is stuck. Now we just in December, we crossed two million,

21:49

listens a month and we're, like, now we're definitely, like, we're definitely too big. And Dharmesh, who is the founder of Hubspot who now owns a podcast. He was like, you gotta change the name. And I'm like, Darmesh, it's way too late. And he was like, no, it's not. And so he thinks we should do it. I think it's too late into the game. Frankly, I think a bad name sometimes is a good is a good thing, but the name is quite horrible. And I feel embarrassed to tell my barber and stuff They're like, well, what's it about? I'm like,

listens a month and we're, like, now we're definitely, like, we're definitely too big. And Dharmesh, who is the founder of Hubspot who now owns a podcast. He was like, you gotta change the name. And I'm like, Darmesh, it's way too late. And he was like, no, it's not. And so he thinks we should do it. I think it's too late into the game. Frankly, I think a bad name sometimes is a good is a good thing, but the name is quite horrible. And I feel embarrassed to tell my barber and stuff They're like, well, what's it about? I'm like,

22:14

I'm not sure, but not much. But it's not about making your first million. That's for sure. Yeah. It's not get rich quick. It's like a real business podcast. And that's that's the thing is since you have subscribers, because what I've thought about is, like, let's say we change the name of you know, of of startups for the rest of us, I think I just changed it in the RSS feed. I changed it with Apple and Spotify, and then it propagates. I think people I need new, you know, liner art or whatever. I think people be confused for a few weeks. And I guess all the incoming links

I'm not sure, but not much. But it's not about making your first million. That's for sure. Yeah. It's not get rich quick. It's like a real business podcast. And that's that's the thing is since you have subscribers, because what I've thought about is, like, let's say we change the name of you know, of of startups for the rest of us, I think I just changed it in the RSS feed. I changed it with Apple and Spotify, and then it propagates. I think people I need new, you know, liner art or whatever. I think people be confused for a few weeks. And I guess all the incoming links

22:44

would say start with the rest of us or my first million, but aside from that, I just don't know the backlash. It's not it's

would say start with the rest of us or my first million, but aside from that, I just don't know the backlash. It's not it's

22:50

it's less of, like, changing the name of a company is really hard, right, because of the brand you've built. But changing them a podcast I think is I I'd like to think it's simpler, but I've never done it. Our friend Nathan

it's less of, like, changing the name of a company is really hard, right, because of the brand you've built. But changing them a podcast I think is I I'd like to think it's simpler, but I've never done it. Our friend Nathan

23:01

started this company called ConvertKit, which is amazing, and I'm an investor in. And it was crushing, and he changed the name to something. I forget what he changed the name to. It was Seva. SEDA.

started this company called ConvertKit, which is amazing, and I'm an investor in. And it was crushing, and he changed the name to something. I forget what he changed the name to. It was Seva. SEDA.

23:11

Yeah. Which apparent apparently, does that mean something offensive in Hindi? It wasn't offensive, but it was it it it has, like, a spiritual meaning. And so the back he had backlash. Right? And it was about cultural appropriation was the kind of phrase that was used.

Yeah. Which apparent apparently, does that mean something offensive in Hindi? It wasn't offensive, but it was it it it has, like, a spiritual meaning. And so the back he had backlash. Right? And it was about cultural appropriation was the kind of phrase that was used.

23:25

Yeah. It's like a it's a word in a different language and people were like, you can't name your company that. And I he's not a he's, like, at the time, there's probably, like, a fifty person company. They probably did some research, but mostly like just probably read the definition in the dictionary thought it sounded cool. And then like a week later, they changed it back to ConvertKit, which I think is a great idea. ConvertKit's a good name.

Yeah. It's like a it's a word in a different language and people were like, you can't name your company that. And I he's not a he's, like, at the time, there's probably, like, a fifty person company. They probably did some research, but mostly like just probably read the definition in the dictionary thought it sounded cool. And then like a week later, they changed it back to ConvertKit, which I think is a great idea. ConvertKit's a good name.

23:45

Yeah. It's

Yeah. It's

23:46

that's that's the other thing with the name change is, okay. So you're gonna change my first million. What are you gonna change it to? Because naming is really hard. Right? Are you very hard. I know some people who are really good at it. Most people are not including myself. I struggle with naming. I always go too literal. We would hire I would hire one of those, like, naming firms. I actually think that I think a naming firm is actually a great idea.

that's that's the other thing with the name change is, okay. So you're gonna change my first million. What are you gonna change it to? Because naming is really hard. Right? Are you very hard. I know some people who are really good at it. Most people are not including myself. I struggle with naming. I always go too literal. We would hire I would hire one of those, like, naming firms. I actually think that I think a naming firm is actually a great idea.

24:07

Yeah. At this level and at the at the the kind of reach that you have and the stakes and the risk I guess the resources you have, it would be a no brainer. Yeah. Somebody really good. I don't I don't know. Do you listen to tropical NBA podcasts by chance? Yeah. I like those guys. Yeah. They had a really good kind of lower budget naming person I say lower budget. Let's say five grand, ten grand versus, you know, you can pay a hundred grand or more.

Yeah. At this level and at the at the the kind of reach that you have and the stakes and the risk I guess the resources you have, it would be a no brainer. Yeah. Somebody really good. I don't I don't know. Do you listen to tropical NBA podcasts by chance? Yeah. I like those guys. Yeah. They had a really good kind of lower budget naming person I say lower budget. Let's say five grand, ten grand versus, you know, you can pay a hundred grand or more.

24:28

She was super sharp. It was such a good episode, and she had like an ebook on how she does it, and I was intrigued by that just because I

She was super sharp. It was such a good episode, and she had like an ebook on how she does it, and I was intrigued by that just because I

24:35

look, you and I are gonna be putting out new whether we rename things or putting out new stuff for the rest of our lives. So How do we get better at this? Right? That's something I wanna do. Sorry.

look, you and I are gonna be putting out new whether we rename things or putting out new stuff for the rest of our lives. So How do we get better at this? Right? That's something I wanna do. Sorry.

24:44

Yeah. What were you saying, Ben? I I you actually answered the question I was gonna ask, which is how much is a naming service, but there you go. But I I mean, you know,

Yeah. What were you saying, Ben? I I you actually answered the question I was gonna ask, which is how much is a naming service, but there you go. But I I mean, you know,

24:51

I think, like, the thing about my first million, like you said, sometimes a bad name is a good name, because the thing is it forces someone to react like, someone has to have an opinion about my first million. They might not like it, but they're not gonna just, like, forget about it. They're gonna, like, oh, what's that? But dude, my companies are called the hustle, horrible name, hustlecon,

I think, like, the thing about my first million, like you said, sometimes a bad name is a good name, because the thing is it forces someone to react like, someone has to have an opinion about my first million. They might not like it, but they're not gonna just, like, forget about it. They're gonna, like, oh, what's that? But dude, my companies are called the hustle, horrible name, hustlecon,

25:09

horrible name. Once I'm at a conference on content, and I called it con con.

horrible name. Once I'm at a conference on content, and I called it con con.

25:14

A meetup series called pizza and forties.

A meetup series called pizza and forties.

25:17

Our subscription service called trends. Like, I'm not good at me. Like, I I, like, I've done trends is good. The hustle is pretty bad.

Our subscription service called trends. Like, I'm not good at me. Like, I I, like, I've done trends is good. The hustle is pretty bad.

25:23

The rest of it are tough because the hustle hustle now has this negative or it has for several years. This hustle culture rat has a negative connotation. So I guess if you're leaning into that, at least it gets attention, but It's a tough one to do. So, Rob, how do you describe your your who you are in a professional sense? How do because I was gonna introduce you, but you're you're you're pretty eclectic that I don't even know how to the proper way to do it. Yeah. I mean, bottom line man, I used to be a software developer, and then I didn't wanna work for other people. So I started startups. And first, it was, I mean, in two thousand six, it was downloadable software. There really wasn't SaaS, and then it it became SaaS, right? That's what you do now if you're in software.

The rest of it are tough because the hustle hustle now has this negative or it has for several years. This hustle culture rat has a negative connotation. So I guess if you're leaning into that, at least it gets attention, but It's a tough one to do. So, Rob, how do you describe your your who you are in a professional sense? How do because I was gonna introduce you, but you're you're you're pretty eclectic that I don't even know how to the proper way to do it. Yeah. I mean, bottom line man, I used to be a software developer, and then I didn't wanna work for other people. So I started startups. And first, it was, I mean, in two thousand six, it was downloadable software. There really wasn't SaaS, and then it it became SaaS, right? That's what you do now if you're in software.

26:00

So I became a founder, serial entrepreneur, launched a few, acquired a few, and

So I became a founder, serial entrepreneur, launched a few, acquired a few, and

26:05

along the way, started blogging about it as you, you know, as you were saying, I wrote a cup. I've written three books about bootstrapping startups. I bootstrapped everything. I never raised funding. I'm not anti funding. I'm not I think funding has a time and a place, but I am anti the narrative that in order to start a startup, you have to funding because I that is just not the case. I think one percent of companies, one percent of tech companies need funding, and the other ninety nine percent really shouldn't shouldn't do it. So around twenty eleven then started a podcast. And then,

along the way, started blogging about it as you, you know, as you were saying, I wrote a cup. I've written three books about bootstrapping startups. I bootstrapped everything. I never raised funding. I'm not anti funding. I'm not I think funding has a time and a place, but I am anti the narrative that in order to start a startup, you have to funding because I that is just not the case. I think one percent of companies, one percent of tech companies need funding, and the other ninety nine percent really shouldn't shouldn't do it. So around twenty eleven then started a podcast. And then,

26:33

no, that's twenty ten. And then twenty eleven started my events called Microsoft.

no, that's twenty ten. And then twenty eleven started my events called Microsoft.

26:37

And

And

26:39

And then just a couple of years ago, launched an accelerator for SaaS bootstrappers.

And then just a couple of years ago, launched an accelerator for SaaS bootstrappers.

26:43

So you,

So you,

26:45

I wanted to go to MicroCon for years ago. I remember that. And I didn't have enough money to to go. So I'm gonna have to go soon. But how what were the name of some of your software companies? I know drip. And and can you reveal, like, how big somebody's grew to? Yeah.

I wanted to go to MicroCon for years ago. I remember that. And I didn't have enough money to to go. So I'm gonna have to go soon. But how what were the name of some of your software companies? I know drip. And and can you reveal, like, how big somebody's grew to? Yeah.

26:59

DRIP grew into well, I mean, drip is tens of millions now, but I sold it in in twenty, what year was that? Twenty sixteen. Grew it to a few million bucks before I sold it. You you grew to three three three million dollars a year in revenue, and then it,

DRIP grew into well, I mean, drip is tens of millions now, but I sold it in in twenty, what year was that? Twenty sixteen. Grew it to a few million bucks before I sold it. You you grew to three three three million dollars a year in revenue, and then it,

27:15

now it does tens of millions of dollars. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, this is email email service providers or really any type of SAS.

now it does tens of millions of dollars. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, this is email email service providers or really any type of SAS.

27:23

If you double down on it, like, and you stick around for a long time, this stuff just it compiles. It it goes up every month if you're doing it right. You know? Do you regret selling it? No. Never. Never a day. Have I woken up and thought. I really wish I was still working on that. Like, I learned we were team of ten when we sold it, and

If you double down on it, like, and you stick around for a long time, this stuff just it compiles. It it goes up every month if you're doing it right. You know? Do you regret selling it? No. Never. Never a day. Have I woken up and thought. I really wish I was still working on that. Like, I learned we were team of ten when we sold it, and

27:39

I learned what I needed to learn. And it was enough money that I never had to work again. And that had been a goal. I was forty one, maybe, when I sold it, and that was a lifelong goal, you know, to to have enough money to not work again. Yep. And I knew I would I knew I would work. Well, what was your number?

I learned what I needed to learn. And it was enough money that I never had to work again. And that had been a goal. I was forty one, maybe, when I sold it, and that was a lifelong goal, you know, to to have enough money to not work again. Yep. And I knew I would I knew I would work. Well, what was your number?

27:56

Well, I don't wanna tell you how much you paid for it. You don't tell me what you sold it for, but, like, in, like, when you said my goal is to earn this, like, What's what was the threshold of not having to work? Oh, that's interesting. You know, when I was twenty five, I just thought it was millions. I never actually calculated it. And then as I got into my thirties, I started saying, well, what's this four percent rule thing that you hear about in personal finance? Right? And I actually think the four percent rule is bullshit

Well, I don't wanna tell you how much you paid for it. You don't tell me what you sold it for, but, like, in, like, when you said my goal is to earn this, like, What's what was the threshold of not having to work? Oh, that's interesting. You know, when I was twenty five, I just thought it was millions. I never actually calculated it. And then as I got into my thirties, I started saying, well, what's this four percent rule thing that you hear about in personal finance? Right? And I actually think the four percent rule is bullshit

28:19

I think you need to be you need to be a little more cautious. So it's about three, three and a half percent. So then

I think you need to be you need to be a little more cautious. So it's about three, three and a half percent. So then

28:24

the rule is if you need if you want a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, to live on, and

the rule is if you need if you want a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, to live on, and

28:31

you have five million dollars in the bank, then the idea is that if you do the four percent rule, you could take out two hundred grand a year and

you have five million dollars in the bank, then the idea is that if you do the four percent rule, you could take out two hundred grand a year and

28:39

never,

never,

28:40

touched the principal because stocks and bonds and other investments are are due and inflation are are working there. So a three percent rule would give you about a hundred and fifty grand. So I'm not using my numbers, but you get the idea. So it quickly became apparent to me that then when I was in my thirties of, like, I think somewhere it's somewhere between five and ten million. I think is most people's number depends on where you live depends on how you live.

touched the principal because stocks and bonds and other investments are are due and inflation are are working there. So a three percent rule would give you about a hundred and fifty grand. So I'm not using my numbers, but you get the idea. So it quickly became apparent to me that then when I was in my thirties of, like, I think somewhere it's somewhere between five and ten million. I think is most people's number depends on where you live depends on how you live.

29:00

But I think anything north of ten is, like, am like,

But I think anything north of ten is, like, am like,

29:03

it is excess. I'll say that. I I'm north of ten, and I and I feel like I'd my life didn't change. There was some point between five and ten where it was like, yeah, that's enough. You know? I still like having the money and I do things with it, but,

it is excess. I'll say that. I I'm north of ten, and I and I feel like I'd my life didn't change. There was some point between five and ten where it was like, yeah, that's enough. You know? I still like having the money and I do things with it, but,

29:16

definitely,

definitely,

29:17

it's not like I would have had to work again even with a major stock market downturn or something. That's pretty cool. Three million with ten employees is is a pretty sick business when it's software.

it's not like I would have had to work again even with a major stock market downturn or something. That's pretty cool. Three million with ten employees is is a pretty sick business when it's software.

29:26

It was very efficient. We were also really I mean, I was bootstrapped. I should've raised around. I should've raised this seed round because it was way stressful, and I was, I burned out pretty hard on it. And that was part of there were several factors into selling for me, and I'm curious you, you know, have talked about why you sold as well. But for me, it was like number one, if I can never if I can have enough money that I control my own destiny for the rest of my life, was a big win. That was the only way I would sell. That was the only reason why I sold. Is is this like to take the cash off and now you can do anything. I mean, I started a damn startup accelerator, right? So I we fund, bootstrap test founders,

It was very efficient. We were also really I mean, I was bootstrapped. I should've raised around. I should've raised this seed round because it was way stressful, and I was, I burned out pretty hard on it. And that was part of there were several factors into selling for me, and I'm curious you, you know, have talked about why you sold as well. But for me, it was like number one, if I can never if I can have enough money that I control my own destiny for the rest of my life, was a big win. That was the only way I would sell. That was the only reason why I sold. Is is this like to take the cash off and now you can do anything. I mean, I started a damn startup accelerator, right? So I we fund, bootstrap test founders,

29:58

I'm not gonna make money from that. And that's a five to ten year play to make real money, right, to actually get the carry back. I'd take a salary, but it's like a token to what I could be making somewhere else.

I'm not gonna make money from that. And that's a five to ten year play to make real money, right, to actually get the carry back. I'd take a salary, but it's like a token to what I could be making somewhere else.

30:09

And so

And so

30:10

I can now do play long ball with it because I'm not thinking, oh, how am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna do my big score. I never wanted to be worth. I never my goal was never I need a hundred million or I need a billion. It would be I'd be fine with that, but that's not that wasn't the goal. It was to have that freedom. I sold to have that. But

I can now do play long ball with it because I'm not thinking, oh, how am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna do my big score. I never wanted to be worth. I never my goal was never I need a hundred million or I need a billion. It would be I'd be fine with that, but that's not that wasn't the goal. It was to have that freedom. I sold to have that. But

30:26

I wish

I wish

30:28

the the thing about my company is that I loved it. I mean, I still I'm still here, and I love it.

the the thing about my company is that I loved it. I mean, I still I'm still here, and I love it.

30:34

Like, I hate it, you know, I hated,

Like, I hate it, you know, I hated,

30:36

like, there was days where I'm, like, this sucks. I hate media. I hate dealing with people. Of course, I had, like, those normal things. But, like, the thing is is that, like, I started my company

like, there was days where I'm, like, this sucks. I hate media. I hate dealing with people. Of course, I had, like, those normal things. But, like, the thing is is that, like, I started my company

30:45

because I was just blogging for fun when it didn't make money. And I didn't actually think it was gonna make money. And now that I have something. I still do this because I just am a compulsive and I love it. And so I I love my company. I just wish

because I was just blogging for fun when it didn't make money. And I didn't actually think it was gonna make money. And now that I have something. I still do this because I just am a compulsive and I love it. And so I I love my company. I just wish

30:59

I wish I was wealthy that I didn't have to sell it. Do you know what I mean? Yep. And so because now I know I'm gonna have to go and start it again one day. You're gonna have to start something. And that one, you won't have to sell. Right? You'll be in a position where you can decide to to do it or not, and you can make bigger bets because if it goes to zero,

I wish I was wealthy that I didn't have to sell it. Do you know what I mean? Yep. And so because now I know I'm gonna have to go and start it again one day. You're gonna have to start something. And that one, you won't have to sell. Right? You'll be in a position where you can decide to to do it or not, and you can make bigger bets because if it goes to zero,

31:14

it's not like you're sitting where I was in twenty fifteen where it's like I am literally worth millions and millions of dollars on paper.

it's not like you're sitting where I was in twenty fifteen where it's like I am literally worth millions and millions of dollars on paper.

31:22

And I have actual liquid net worth about four hundred grand in retirement savings between my wife and I, and I have about fifty thousand dollars

And I have actual liquid net worth about four hundred grand in retirement savings between my wife and I, and I have about fifty thousand dollars

31:30

in in our house, which had no equity because it was, you know, it it had gone down or whatever. So that that was it. So I was like, I felt way over exposed

in in our house, which had no equity because it was, you know, it it had gone down or whatever. So that that was it. So I was like, I felt way over exposed

31:38

to something tragic happening. When you are doing three million in recurring revenue,

to something tragic happening. When you are doing three million in recurring revenue,

31:44

I'm not sure if you how you do, like, if people pay upfront or what, whatnot, but

I'm not sure if you how you do, like, if people pay upfront or what, whatnot, but

31:48

Like, I've seen ConvertKit's numbers that, like, all the public stuff that they reveal, and they're they didn't have a significant amount of cash in the bank. Was your was your thing the same way where Absolutely. We would wait. Because, like, ten you think ten employees making ten,

Like, I've seen ConvertKit's numbers that, like, all the public stuff that they reveal, and they're they didn't have a significant amount of cash in the bank. Was your was your thing the same way where Absolutely. We would wait. Because, like, ten you think ten employees making ten,

32:01

make it three million dollars. Like, oh, you should have, like, plenty of money.

make it three million dollars. Like, oh, you should have, like, plenty of money.

32:04

But what what was the truth?

But what what was the truth?

32:07

The truth is that growth

The truth is that growth

32:09

choose just destroys cash. Like, no matter how much cash we made,

choose just destroys cash. Like, no matter how much cash we made,

32:14

I've

I've

32:15

I was

I was

32:17

spending on AWS bills. I was spending it with SendGrid. I would hire another contractor. I would hire another employee. The moment we we grew by ten grand in a month let's say, of a monthly recurring. And I'm like, great. Now I can hire another engineer because, oh, my god. We are understaffed.

spending on AWS bills. I was spending it with SendGrid. I would hire another contractor. I would hire another employee. The moment we we grew by ten grand in a month let's say, of a monthly recurring. And I'm like, great. Now I can hire another engineer because, oh, my god. We are understaffed.

32:30

So at ten people, we were way understaffed.

So at ten people, we were way understaffed.

32:34

And,

And,

32:35

yeah, I'm trying to think. And that's where, like, my decision at that point was I'm either gonna raise an angel round, like a seed round.

yeah, I'm trying to think. And that's where, like, my decision at that point was I'm either gonna raise an angel round, like a seed round.

32:42

Or we should sell it. And that was that was the decision of do we double down on this business for another

Or we should sell it. And that was that was the decision of do we double down on this business for another

32:47

two to four years, or am I ready to to, you know, make make that choice of letting it go. And that so that was I I was a drip user who owns it?

two to four years, or am I ready to to, you know, make make that choice of letting it go. And that so that was I I was a drip user who owns it?

32:57

Well, what's interesting. So leadpages bought it. Lee pages had have raised,

Well, what's interesting. So leadpages bought it. Lee pages had have raised,

33:02

thirty eight million in venture.

thirty eight million in venture.

33:04

And

And

33:05

they

they

33:07

it's actually a parent company right called the Avenue eighty one Incorporated that owned lead pages and then acquired drip. So there's two products under one umbrella. Well, pretty soon, within the the Avenue eighty one, you know, CEO

it's actually a parent company right called the Avenue eighty one Incorporated that owned lead pages and then acquired drip. So there's two products under one umbrella. Well, pretty soon, within the the Avenue eighty one, you know, CEO

33:18

realized the opportunity here is drip. Like, Drip is a multi billion dollar opportunity, whereas landing pages are, you know, the whole market at the time, it was eighty million, maybe, a hundred million. And that's that sounds like a lot to us, but they're venture backed. So they need to get to billions in valuation. So they actually sold off lead pages, and the company is now drip.

realized the opportunity here is drip. Like, Drip is a multi billion dollar opportunity, whereas landing pages are, you know, the whole market at the time, it was eighty million, maybe, a hundred million. And that's that sounds like a lot to us, but they're venture backed. So they need to get to billions in valuation. So they actually sold off lead pages, and the company is now drip.

33:38

So dripbone's drip now. You know what I mean? Like, it's it was a a turnaround. I don't know if you I don't know if you ever heard that this happened with Best Buy, where they acquired squad. Right. Pick squad And now, like, Best Buy would not exist without Geek Squad because that was, like, all their net profit through the, you know, last fifteen years. That

So dripbone's drip now. You know what I mean? Like, it's it was a a turnaround. I don't know if you I don't know if you ever heard that this happened with Best Buy, where they acquired squad. Right. Pick squad And now, like, Best Buy would not exist without Geek Squad because that was, like, all their net profit through the, you know, last fifteen years. That

33:55

That is actually happened with Drift. They've just refocused the whole team that hundred seventy employees, and I got to start handpicking people from the leadpages team and pulling them over to help grow the team. So when I left, there were a hundred and something people working on drip. Do you feel like see, it remember, like, when you're a kid and you said dates and then you see her with another guy and you, like, feel just like that that gel you feel like

That is actually happened with Drift. They've just refocused the whole team that hundred seventy employees, and I got to start handpicking people from the leadpages team and pulling them over to help grow the team. So when I left, there were a hundred and something people working on drip. Do you feel like see, it remember, like, when you're a kid and you said dates and then you see her with another guy and you, like, feel just like that that gel you feel like

34:16

anger and jealousy and you're sad.

anger and jealousy and you're sad.

34:19

Do you do you still have that? Do you have that emotion when you see drip?

Do you do you still have that? Do you have that emotion when you see drip?

34:24

I don't.

I don't.

34:26

And

And

34:27

But but I will say that there have been some things that have happened that have that I haven't been happy with. So they, like, raised prices and they didn't do it very well. Right after I left, like, a few months after. And I was like, you guys are better than it. Like, I would have done that so differently. And if I was in the room, I would have said, don't do they just did it really They didn't grandfather. You know, they just made kind of all the one zero one mistakes, and that sucked. And I and then there was a huge backlash against drip, which is part of my legacy. Like, drip drip is you know what? It's like the hustle will always you will always be the founder of the hustle. Right? And I will always be the co founder of drip. That they've messed with the UI.

But but I will say that there have been some things that have happened that have that I haven't been happy with. So they, like, raised prices and they didn't do it very well. Right after I left, like, a few months after. And I was like, you guys are better than it. Like, I would have done that so differently. And if I was in the room, I would have said, don't do they just did it really They didn't grandfather. You know, they just made kind of all the one zero one mistakes, and that sucked. And I and then there was a huge backlash against drip, which is part of my legacy. Like, drip drip is you know what? It's like the hustle will always you will always be the founder of the hustle. Right? And I will always be the co founder of drip. That they've messed with the UI.

35:00

They've reshaped it and stuff. So when I go in now, I'm a little bit like, I liked it the old way, but but I don't feel it's not the ex girlfriend thing. It's more of a I did have to let it go, you know, and just and just let it go. I still use it. I I mean, I'm in it every day. It's such a good tool. Do you that that's a good sign. Do you,

They've reshaped it and stuff. So when I go in now, I'm a little bit like, I liked it the old way, but but I don't feel it's not the ex girlfriend thing. It's more of a I did have to let it go, you know, and just and just let it go. I still use it. I I mean, I'm in it every day. It's such a good tool. Do you that that's a good sign. Do you,

35:17

and then microconf, was that a big business? Because I'm when when I started Hussicon, I, like, researched you guys to steal ideas, but, like, also, like, to make sure it's a good business. And I was, like, well, Rob's pretty savvy and he's doing it. So, like, yeah, I could probably make a profit off this. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely, you know, it was a side project like a hobby all this time, right, until about two years ago where when I left drip, I had this big decision of, like,

and then microconf, was that a big business? Because I'm when when I started Hussicon, I, like, researched you guys to steal ideas, but, like, also, like, to make sure it's a good business. And I was, like, well, Rob's pretty savvy and he's doing it. So, like, yeah, I could probably make a profit off this. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely, you know, it was a side project like a hobby all this time, right, until about two years ago where when I left drip, I had this big decision of, like,

35:41

I have this podcast.

I have this podcast.

35:43

At the time, I had a co host with the podcast I'm solo now,

At the time, I had a co host with the podcast I'm solo now,

35:46

had micro conf

had micro conf

35:49

Do I sell all of that? I I literally thought of just leaving the whole entrepreneur,

Do I sell all of that? I I literally thought of just leaving the whole entrepreneur,

35:54

like, blogging, podcasting thing

like, blogging, podcasting thing

35:56

and going in, like, I was gonna acquire a tabletop gaming, the second biggest tabletop gaming website. Right? What's the what's the tabletop? Yeah. I don't even know that. You know, like, settlers of Catan or, like, dungeons and dragons, it's like not like a board game is monopoly. Right? But then there's like the levels above that of complexity and stuff. And so Which are booming right now. Huge. Well, COVID helped, but also they're just they're super popular. And so I was like, that's a hobby of mine. And I was like, I really wanna do it. And then I started talking to the owner of the site who's great, great dude.

and going in, like, I was gonna acquire a tabletop gaming, the second biggest tabletop gaming website. Right? What's the what's the tabletop? Yeah. I don't even know that. You know, like, settlers of Catan or, like, dungeons and dragons, it's like not like a board game is monopoly. Right? But then there's like the levels above that of complexity and stuff. And so Which are booming right now. Huge. Well, COVID helped, but also they're just they're super popular. And so I was like, that's a hobby of mine. And I was like, I really wanna do it. And then I started talking to the owner of the site who's great, great dude.

36:23

And I'm like, what are your numbers? And he started giving me the numbers. And I was like, This makes no money. This may and he's like, yeah, dude, tabletop games make no money. Like, the, you know, there's the few. There's the Catan and there's DND. There's, like, ten or twenty. Everything else kind of is I mean, I'm overgeneralizing

And I'm like, what are your numbers? And he started giving me the numbers. And I was like, This makes no money. This may and he's like, yeah, dude, tabletop games make no money. Like, the, you know, there's the few. There's the Catan and there's DND. There's, like, ten or twenty. Everything else kind of is I mean, I'm overgeneralizing

36:38

here because certainly there's other, but it's not like startup. Like, we are so spoiled

here because certainly there's other, but it's not like startup. Like, we are so spoiled

36:43

with startups where we don't manufacture physical things

with startups where we don't manufacture physical things

36:46

and and you don't have returns and you don't have excess inventory and you don't have a warehousing and all that stuff and the profit margins are thin and etcetera, etcetera. So that's when I double down,

and and you don't have returns and you don't have excess inventory and you don't have a warehousing and all that stuff and the profit margins are thin and etcetera, etcetera. So that's when I double down,

36:56

on all of that. And so, yes, your your initial question was, is micro complicated business? Yes. Will will we sell let's see. We'll sell seven, like, low seven figures, like, a million million and a half dollars, I think, in top line this year, maybe? Somewhere in that range, I need to look at the budget. You can tell that I have someone running it because I should know that. I would know that number if I was actually, like, into it. Will will you be able to and could I mean, if you do one point five, I would I would hope that you probably do, like, three or four hundred in profit.

on all of that. And so, yes, your your initial question was, is micro complicated business? Yes. Will will we sell let's see. We'll sell seven, like, low seven figures, like, a million million and a half dollars, I think, in top line this year, maybe? Somewhere in that range, I need to look at the budget. You can tell that I have someone running it because I should know that. I would know that number if I was actually, like, into it. Will will you be able to and could I mean, if you do one point five, I would I would hope that you probably do, like, three or four hundred in profit.

37:23

I think so. Although, here's what we do. See, we

I think so. Although, here's what we do. See, we

37:27

are not running it

are not running it

37:29

as a profit machine. We are running it almost. It's become like a service to the community.

as a profit machine. We are running it almost. It's become like a service to the community.

37:35

And so we run a bunch of the events at break even or loss. Like, our local events are where we go to San Jose or Atlanta

And so we run a bunch of the events at break even or loss. Like, our local events are where we go to San Jose or Atlanta

37:42

or Austin, Texas. We do a one day event. Those tend to break even or lose money, and we're doing it to try to just expand.

or Austin, Texas. We do a one day event. Those tend to break even or lose money, and we're doing it to try to just expand.

37:49

Like, the mission is to increase the number of independent startups in the world. That's what we wanna do. Bootstrap startups used to be the term, but it's, like, it's not solely bootstrap. Some people raise small amounts of money.

Like, the mission is to increase the number of independent startups in the world. That's what we wanna do. Bootstrap startups used to be the term, but it's, like, it's not solely bootstrap. Some people raise small amounts of money.

37:59

And to do that, we gotta get the word out. And so we run it at a

And to do that, we gotta get the word out. And so we run it at a

38:03

you know, ten to twenty percent profit net profit margin,

you know, ten to twenty percent profit net profit margin,

38:06

and we could make more money. We used to make more money, five years ago or what but there's just no need to at this point. Yeah. That's a pretty sick,

and we could make more money. We used to make more money, five years ago or what but there's just no need to at this point. Yeah. That's a pretty sick,

38:14

side, like, a good hobby.

side, like, a good hobby.

38:17

It was good. It wasn't when I still had drip, we weren't doing a million because we were, you know, we're gonna do fifteen events this year. When we were when I was running drip, we were doing three. But they were big they were big events. We would have trying to figure out what our top line

It was good. It wasn't when I still had drip, we weren't doing a million because we were, you know, we're gonna do fifteen events this year. When we were when I was running drip, we were doing three. But they were big they were big events. We would have trying to figure out what our top line

38:30

revenue was even. And it was half and you know what? Let's say half a million. Six hundred grand across three events. So it's it was good. But it's a brand. Right, man? It's like the first year we in twenty eleven, we went to sell tickets.

revenue was even. And it was half and you know what? Let's say half a million. Six hundred grand across three events. So it's it was good. But it's a brand. Right, man? It's like the first year we in twenty eleven, we went to sell tickets.

38:43

We were like, we're gonna sell two hundred tickets at eight hundred dollars a piece or five hundred dollars a piece, and we sold, like, seventy, like, five hundred dollars a piece. Terrible. And the city part everyone's like, you're gonna make money off sponsors. And, yes, you will. It's gonna take you two or three years though for them to trust you. Yep. And and what what I didn't realize with events was they buy, like, a year in advance. So, like, our first sponsorships were, like, two k apiece. Then we started getting the fifty k and a hundred k, but they booked a year in advance. And I was like, sure. What?

We were like, we're gonna sell two hundred tickets at eight hundred dollars a piece or five hundred dollars a piece, and we sold, like, seventy, like, five hundred dollars a piece. Terrible. And the city part everyone's like, you're gonna make money off sponsors. And, yes, you will. It's gonna take you two or three years though for them to trust you. Yep. And and what what I didn't realize with events was they buy, like, a year in advance. So, like, our first sponsorships were, like, two k apiece. Then we started getting the fifty k and a hundred k, but they booked a year in advance. And I was like, sure. What?

39:13

So, like, it's it's a it's a crazy business.

So, like, it's it's a it's a crazy business.

39:16

Yeah. I personally wouldn't I kept saying to my I had a co founder with that and then our event producer, and I kept saying, I don't wanna be in the events business. Right? We we had one event and then we expanded it to two because we wanted to do one in Europe And then we expanded it to three because we wanted an earlier stage of amp, and I kept saying, I wanna be in the events business, and they kept telling me that's the business. This is an events business. You've started one, you know. But I did it more as a I wanna I always thought of it as a community because that's, like, Microsoft has an online community and YouTube channel and all that stuff.

Yeah. I personally wouldn't I kept saying to my I had a co founder with that and then our event producer, and I kept saying, I don't wanna be in the events business. Right? We we had one event and then we expanded it to two because we wanted to do one in Europe And then we expanded it to three because we wanted an earlier stage of amp, and I kept saying, I wanna be in the events business, and they kept telling me that's the business. This is an events business. You've started one, you know. But I did it more as a I wanna I always thought of it as a community because that's, like, Microsoft has an online community and YouTube channel and all that stuff.

39:45

Well, Ben, you were thinking about to say something?

Well, Ben, you were thinking about to say something?

39:48

No. No. I was just Oh, you're laughing?

No. No. I was just Oh, you're laughing?

39:50

Yeah. I was just laughing.

Yeah. I was just laughing.

39:53

Do, I I who who starts a a business, an event business, and doesn't know it's an event business, but, dude, that was the same way. I started when I started Hosscar, I was like, this is This is stupid. This is just a means to an end. We're getting out of this immediately.

Do, I I who who starts a a business, an event business, and doesn't know it's an event business, but, dude, that was the same way. I started when I started Hosscar, I was like, this is This is stupid. This is just a means to an end. We're getting out of this immediately.

40:05

And then it it's like,

And then it it's like,

40:07

it's

it's

40:08

It's kinda like when you see all your friends starting software companies, you're like, dude, events are embarrassing. Why would I want this? Like, this is stupid. It doesn't it's too hard. But then once you get a little more confident in yourself and you're like, well, if I accept it for, like, for what it is, it's actually pretty neat.

It's kinda like when you see all your friends starting software companies, you're like, dude, events are embarrassing. Why would I want this? Like, this is stupid. It doesn't it's too hard. But then once you get a little more confident in yourself and you're like, well, if I accept it for, like, for what it is, it's actually pretty neat.

40:23

Yeah. And there's nothing like it, like, in this even, let's say pre COVID from

Yeah. And there's nothing like it, like, in this even, let's say pre COVID from

40:29

twenty eleven until until this year over the last ten, eleven years.

twenty eleven until until this year over the last ten, eleven years.

40:33

There's a lot of online communities. Anyone can start one. You get a few hundred people together. There are so few people who've not only run-in person events, but who do them well. And if you can do that, it is an incredible competitive advantage. And not even that we have that much competition, but it is it's not just, like, I'm gonna run a business to make money. It's, like, the community of micro comp is so tightly knit and it's because we meet in person. You know what I mean? You just you have I mean, you you've experienced this where you go to an event, you meet someone in person, and we the retention rate was sixty or seventy percent. So you come back to the next year

There's a lot of online communities. Anyone can start one. You get a few hundred people together. There are so few people who've not only run-in person events, but who do them well. And if you can do that, it is an incredible competitive advantage. And not even that we have that much competition, but it is it's not just, like, I'm gonna run a business to make money. It's, like, the community of micro comp is so tightly knit and it's because we meet in person. You know what I mean? You just you have I mean, you you've experienced this where you go to an event, you meet someone in person, and we the retention rate was sixty or seventy percent. So you come back to the next year

41:04

and everybody kinda knows each other. And then you get new blood. And, you know, so there is

and everybody kinda knows each other. And then you get new blood. And, you know, so there is

41:09

it it built a way better community than if we did not have in person events. So because your job, it says your career, you see a lot of like crazy software companies, some of which maybe aren't necessarily huge, but they are it could be surprising because you're like, I cannot believe someone's making this work. And you probably are able to spot lots of opportunities

it it built a way better community than if we did not have in person events. So because your job, it says your career, you see a lot of like crazy software companies, some of which maybe aren't necessarily huge, but they are it could be surprising because you're like, I cannot believe someone's making this work. And you probably are able to spot lots of opportunities

41:29

We asked you if you knew of we asked you ahead of time, and I'm curious if you were to think of any any software companies

We asked you if you knew of we asked you ahead of time, and I'm curious if you were to think of any any software companies

41:35

where you see and you're shocked at the that this is like a problem that needed to be solved.

where you see and you're shocked at the that this is like a problem that needed to be solved.

41:41

Yeah. I see a bunch. So I have some I have some both ideas that I haven't seen implemented maybe we can dig into later. Let's do yeah. We'll do both of those. Yep. But

Yeah. I see a bunch. So I have some I have some both ideas that I haven't seen implemented maybe we can dig into later. Let's do yeah. We'll do both of those. Yep. But

41:52

they're

they're

41:54

So I'll I'll talk about a couple so tiny seed is a startup accelerator. I run. And so as a result, you know, we've had across what? Four batches.

So I'll I'll talk about a couple so tiny seed is a startup accelerator. I run. And so as a result, you know, we've had across what? Four batches.

42:02

Is that right? Four batches? We've had two or three thousand applicants. So I've seen a lot of SaaS companies come through. Wow. And

Is that right? Four batches? We've had two or three thousand applicants. So I've seen a lot of SaaS companies come through. Wow. And

42:09

what I've,

what I've,

42:11

I've been surprised by a ton of them. Let me just look at one right here. So CRM or

I've been surprised by a ton of them. Let me just look at one right here. So CRM or

42:20

kind of customer interactions applied to any niche and the smallest niche you can imagine.

kind of customer interactions applied to any niche and the smallest niche you can imagine.

42:26

So, like, home improvement contractors.

So, like, home improvement contractors.

42:30

The founder of Builda Prime as the saw as SAS. We funded it with tiny seed. And he,

The founder of Builda Prime as the saw as SAS. We funded it with tiny seed. And he,

42:35

at home improvement project,

at home improvement project,

42:37

And he said the experience dealing with the contractor. Contractor was fine, but the communication was, like, text and then email. And it was anytime there's a bunch of text and email, that can be a product. What was the name build a what? Builder

And he said the experience dealing with the contractor. Contractor was fine, but the communication was, like, text and then email. And it was anytime there's a bunch of text and email, that can be a product. What was the name build a what? Builder

42:49

Prime. Builder Prime. Builder Prime. Yep.

Prime. Builder Prime. Builder Prime. Yep.

42:52

And so it's in essence. I think he might call it CRM for Yeah. He calls it Best CRM,

And so it's in essence. I think he might call it CRM for Yeah. He calls it Best CRM,

42:58

but really,

but really,

42:59

it's not only the sales process, but then it's the communication during a home improvement project.

it's not only the sales process, but then it's the communication during a home improvement project.

43:05

And so, like, shouldn't you I would say, well, shouldn't couldn't you use base camp? Isn't, like, project management, or could I use Microsoft project, like, online? Right? Because you could but it's like, no. This is a strongly typed version of that that is completely built for their needs. How's this going?

And so, like, shouldn't you I would say, well, shouldn't couldn't you use base camp? Isn't, like, project management, or could I use Microsoft project, like, online? Right? Because you could but it's like, no. This is a strongly typed version of that that is completely built for their needs. How's this going?

43:20

It's going really well. I can't disclose revenue, but, I'll say anyone in time who's in batch too.

It's going really well. I can't disclose revenue, but, I'll say anyone in time who's in batch too.

43:26

Any of those companies are gonna be you know, mid six figures into seven figures. Right?

Any of those companies are gonna be you know, mid six figures into seven figures. Right?

43:31

The, founder of Hubstop, Brian Halligan, came on the pod, and he told us that when they I I I'm gonna paraphrase the story. I might get a little bit wrong. He said that when they first started Hubspot,

The, founder of Hubstop, Brian Halligan, came on the pod, and he told us that when they I I I'm gonna paraphrase the story. I might get a little bit wrong. He said that when they first started Hubspot,

43:42

they were, like, at a fork in the road and not sure which way they were gonna go, And for a minute, I think they even created it and even had some sales, but they were like, well, let's, like, HubSpot is a CRM, but then let's create, like, a lost spot. So it's like, HubSpot just for lawyers. So instead of like making it one for everyone, we're gonna make an individual one for different industries. And so let's create law spot and just get lawyers to use it. And that's kinda basically what this company builder Prime is because you would say, like, why can't you just use HubSpot? Why can't you just use asant, whatever you wanted, whatever it is.

they were, like, at a fork in the road and not sure which way they were gonna go, And for a minute, I think they even created it and even had some sales, but they were like, well, let's, like, HubSpot is a CRM, but then let's create, like, a lost spot. So it's like, HubSpot just for lawyers. So instead of like making it one for everyone, we're gonna make an individual one for different industries. And so let's create law spot and just get lawyers to use it. And that's kinda basically what this company builder Prime is because you would say, like, why can't you just use HubSpot? Why can't you just use asant, whatever you wanted, whatever it is.

44:13

I understand. And so,

I understand. And so,

44:15

alright, this is a cool company. How big's the team on this? What? What, Ben? My my other question is,

alright, this is a cool company. How big's the team on this? What? What, Ben? My my other question is,

44:22

like, do do you have any companies, Rob, that you work with, that are building apps on top of Salesforce or HubSpot that are, like, building in those ecosystems, or do you think they should always go the direction to builder Prime and just build their entire own ecosystem? This ecosystem.

like, do do you have any companies, Rob, that you work with, that are building apps on top of Salesforce or HubSpot that are, like, building in those ecosystems, or do you think they should always go the direction to builder Prime and just build their entire own ecosystem? This ecosystem.

44:37

We have

We have

44:42

one who is built on Heroku,

one who is built on Heroku,

44:45

We have

We have

44:46

one who's

one who's

44:48

kinda built it is a WordPress plug and kinda built on WordPress. They're actually doing really well. It's Castos. It's podcast hosting. They're they're into seven figures.

kinda built it is a WordPress plug and kinda built on WordPress. They're actually doing really well. It's Castos. It's podcast hosting. They're they're into seven figures.

44:55

But there's no you know, so the thing is is with building on HubSpot or Salesforce,

But there's no you know, so the thing is is with building on HubSpot or Salesforce,

45:00

there's this platform risk. Right? Because I had an angel investment that was doing really well was built on Shopify was a Shopify app, and they started killing it, and then Shopify came a knockin and said,

there's this platform risk. Right? Because I had an angel investment that was doing really well was built on Shopify was a Shopify app, and they started killing it, and then Shopify came a knockin and said,

45:11

you gotta start paying us big chunk of your revenue or we shut you down. I mean, really, you know, I would I would say it's shady shit, but it is what it is. It's platform risk. Right?

you gotta start paying us big chunk of your revenue or we shut you down. I mean, really, you know, I would I would say it's shady shit, but it is what it is. It's platform risk. Right?

45:21

So that's where we have to be aware. Like, if you go to sell a SaaS company and you're solely built on top of a platform,

So that's where we have to be aware. Like, if you go to sell a SaaS company and you're solely built on top of a platform,

45:27

you

you

45:28

self or a lower multiple

self or a lower multiple

45:30

than if you were on your own. So

than if you were on your own. So

45:33

as a result,

as a result,

45:34

what we say when folks come in and apply and say, hey, I'm only on Heroku or if we we see Shopify apps come through. We had to have seen Salesforce apps come through. I don't remember HubSpot one, to be honest. But what we say is Cool. It's not a nonstarter,

what we say when folks come in and apply and say, hey, I'm only on Heroku or if we we see Shopify apps come through. We had to have seen Salesforce apps come through. I don't remember HubSpot one, to be honest. But what we say is Cool. It's not a nonstarter,

45:48

but how are you thinking about this? Are you building for what other platforms are you building for? How do you escape that? Because by the, you know, when you're five hundred grand a year, no one cares. When you're five million a year

but how are you thinking about this? Are you building for what other platforms are you building for? How do you escape that? Because by the, you know, when you're five hundred grand a year, no one cares. When you're five million a year

45:58

on a platform, they notice.

on a platform, they notice.

46:00

And that there's there's a danger there.

And that there's there's a danger there.

46:04

That's that's pretty cool. That's interesting. I I mean, I I knew that was true, but I didn't know that Shopify could change the prices that they charge. Seen that happen firsthand. Yeah. Alright. Well, let's just go ahead. Yeah. There's there's another one.

That's that's pretty cool. That's interesting. I I mean, I I knew that was true, but I didn't know that Shopify could change the prices that they charge. Seen that happen firsthand. Yeah. Alright. Well, let's just go ahead. Yeah. There's there's another one.

46:16

This one's interesting. It's called scraping b.

This one's interesting. It's called scraping b.

46:19

And the cool part about them is they are public with their revenue, so I can actually at least give you an idea. So they crossed a million dollars in annual recurring

And the cool part about them is they are public with their revenue, so I can actually at least give you an idea. So they crossed a million dollars in annual recurring

46:28

just two, three months ago.

just two, three months ago.

46:30

And if you look at what it is, is it's

And if you look at what it is, is it's

46:33

they allow you if you want to

they allow you if you want to

46:37

scrape the web. Right? If it's like, well, I wanna get all, you know, the products off of an this particular e commerce site. You can go in And it's not a GUI, like, you need to write a little bit of code, but then they have all the servers that allow you to get around being blocked by APIs or whatever.

scrape the web. Right? If it's like, well, I wanna get all, you know, the products off of an this particular e commerce site. You can go in And it's not a GUI, like, you need to write a little bit of code, but then they have all the servers that allow you to get around being blocked by APIs or whatever.

46:52

And when you think about this idea, it's it's like, well, that sounds like a nice little five ten k a month idea. Right?

And when you think about this idea, it's it's like, well, that sounds like a nice little five ten k a month idea. Right?

46:59

They're doing north of a, you know, probably a hundred hundred grand a month right now. I haven't looked at the revenue recently. Like It says they're two employees.

They're doing north of a, you know, probably a hundred hundred grand a month right now. I haven't looked at the revenue recently. Like It says they're two employees.

47:06

Yeah.

Yeah.

47:07

It's two employees. It's the two founders.

It's two employees. It's the two founders.

47:10

What? They're doing it's crazy. We're encouraging them to hire, actually, because

What? They're doing it's crazy. We're encouraging them to hire, actually, because

47:14

here's the problem. Let's say they wanted to sell.

here's the problem. Let's say they wanted to sell.

47:17

I'm not saying they do, but if they wanted to, that's a problem. Like, they would they would be worth more if they were a team of five or ten

I'm not saying they do, but if they wanted to, that's a problem. Like, they would they would be worth more if they were a team of five or ten

47:24

than if they're only two.

than if they're only two.

47:26

Because they're making a bunch of profit, but it's there's risk there. Right? Do they have is this like, one of those,

Because they're making a bunch of profit, but it's there's risk there. Right? Do they have is this like, one of those,

47:32

public revenue things on, like, the bare metrics or whatever? Know, I think they just disclose it on Twitter.

public revenue things on, like, the bare metrics or whatever? Know, I think they just disclose it on Twitter.

47:38

It's Oh, wow. Peer to wolves. Yeah. And it's, like, every couple months he'll say when they hit a milestone, he'll be like, we hit this. And

It's Oh, wow. Peer to wolves. Yeah. And it's, like, every couple months he'll say when they hit a milestone, he'll be like, we hit this. And

47:45

The co founder I mean, co founders Pierre and Kevin are really cool and transparent, and they talk a lot about it. I mean, it's content and SEO. And they have grown a crazy fast. I believe, and my memory serves me correctly, that when they joined tiny seed, they were at four k a month.

The co founder I mean, co founders Pierre and Kevin are really cool and transparent, and they talk a lot about it. I mean, it's content and SEO. And they have grown a crazy fast. I believe, and my memory serves me correctly, that when they joined tiny seed, they were at four k a month.

48:00

And this was

And this was

48:03

two years ago tops.

two years ago tops.

48:05

Eighteen months, two years at, you know, so it's like to go from four k to

Eighteen months, two years at, you know, so it's like to go from four k to

48:09

ostensibly what, ninety k, a hundred k, they're in that range a month.

ostensibly what, ninety k, a hundred k, they're in that range a month.

48:13

Pretty cool. These guys

Pretty cool. These guys

48:15

these guys should raise money maybe.

these guys should raise money maybe.

48:18

Yeah. They should they could. If they wanted to, it's up to them. Right? But the valuations right now for a company that's growing quick that has a million revenue is like fifty to a hundred million dollars. Yeah. It's nuts. I know. So, like, if you could raise five billion dollars and just do five I mean, that's kind of interesting. That'd be that'd be easy to justify.

Yeah. They should they could. If they wanted to, it's up to them. Right? But the valuations right now for a company that's growing quick that has a million revenue is like fifty to a hundred million dollars. Yeah. It's nuts. I know. So, like, if you could raise five billion dollars and just do five I mean, that's kind of interesting. That'd be that'd be easy to justify.

48:35

Right. But it depends on the founder. Right? It's like that's one of the things that a lot of bootstrappers,

Right. But it depends on the founder. Right? It's like that's one of the things that a lot of bootstrappers,

48:40

they don't

they don't

48:41

want to get on that. Once you raise that money, now you're on the venture track. Right? And it's like, I gotta raise every few months. I'm supposed to burn from you.

want to get on that. Once you raise that money, now you're on the venture track. Right? And it's like, I gotta raise every few months. I'm supposed to burn from you.

48:48

Yeah. But we're different. Tiny seeds for bootstrappers. And so with tiny seed, folks can run their business and take profits out. We actually fund LLCs,

Yeah. But we're different. Tiny seeds for bootstrappers. And so with tiny seed, folks can run their business and take profits out. We actually fund LLCs,

48:57

and they can take profits out if they want. Or how do they get paid? We get paid if they take profits out because we we,

and they can take profits out if they want. Or how do they get paid? We get paid if they take profits out because we we,

49:03

you know, buy a percentage of their equity.

you know, buy a percentage of their equity.

49:05

So,

So,

49:06

basically, if they take dividends out, we

basically, if they take dividends out, we

49:09

you know, serve pro rata in those, or if they were to sell the company, again, we own stock.

you know, serve pro rata in those, or if they were to sell the company, again, we own stock.

49:14

So our units and LLCs,

So our units and LLCs,

49:16

so we get that percentage,

so we get that percentage,

49:17

when they sell But is that actually gonna be profitable for you, you think? More so than,

when they sell But is that actually gonna be profitable for you, you think? More so than,

49:22

trying to get trying to do the traditional model where you throw shit at the wall and ten percent maybe works. Right. Well, we we are still in the traditional model of we've funded six fifty nine sixty companies to date, and we will fund another

trying to get trying to do the traditional model where you throw shit at the wall and ten percent maybe works. Right. Well, we we are still in the traditional model of we've funded six fifty nine sixty companies to date, and we will fund another

49:37

hundred and we have enough money right now to fund another hundred and twenty, hundred and fifty in the next three years. So we are still in that model of making a lot of bets

hundred and we have enough money right now to fund another hundred and twenty, hundred and fifty in the next three years. So we are still in that model of making a lot of bets

49:45

what we're what we see is that our bets,

what we're what we see is that our bets,

49:48

like, I don't think we will have a billion dollar outcome. I just don't see that being reasonable. I think we have a lot of ten to fifty, ten to hundred million dollar outcomes.

like, I don't think we will have a billion dollar outcome. I just don't see that being reasonable. I think we have a lot of ten to fifty, ten to hundred million dollar outcomes.

49:57

And the numb we've run a bunch of models. And in fact, if you go to tiny c dot com slash thesis,

And the numb we've run a bunch of models. And in fact, if you go to tiny c dot com slash thesis,

50:03

you will see my co founder is a data was a data scientist, PhD, computer science,

you will see my co founder is a data was a data scientist, PhD, computer science,

50:08

and we ran a bunch of back testing on anonymous

and we ran a bunch of back testing on anonymous

50:12

SaaS data.

SaaS data.

50:13

I think it was several thousand companies and looked at our our funding approach versus, you know, what it would return, and it will return

I think it was several thousand companies and looked at our our funding approach versus, you know, what it would return, and it will return

50:21

venture like returns with,

venture like returns with,

50:23

I believe, lower downside risk because we invested we invested at the early stage at low valuations in

I believe, lower downside risk because we invested we invested at the early stage at low valuations in

50:29

essence. Wow. What else is interesting to you?

essence. Wow. What else is interesting to you?

50:33

Yeah. You want another another company? No. Tell me what ideas do you think there's opportunities in? Yes. Alright. So here's so I always when I start with ideas, I'm I'm such a b to b SaaS founder. Right? So I start with the problem. Right? And so first, anytime I see someone doing something in Excel or or a Google sheet, I think to myself that could that's an idea. Right? If you take it, or if there's a bunch of email, you know, or text back and forth.

Yeah. You want another another company? No. Tell me what ideas do you think there's opportunities in? Yes. Alright. So here's so I always when I start with ideas, I'm I'm such a b to b SaaS founder. Right? So I start with the problem. Right? And so first, anytime I see someone doing something in Excel or or a Google sheet, I think to myself that could that's an idea. Right? If you take it, or if there's a bunch of email, you know, or text back and forth.

50:57

Those are because it's communication or it's just storage.

Those are because it's communication or it's just storage.

51:01

There's a couple things

There's a couple things

51:03

that,

that,

51:05

I'm pretty fascinated by. So

I'm pretty fascinated by. So

51:07

one is

one is

51:09

podcast

podcast

51:10

apps are doing quite well. Like, we're in Riverside now. We've funded

apps are doing quite well. Like, we're in Riverside now. We've funded

51:13

I'm invested in squadcast,

I'm invested in squadcast,

51:15

which is a competitor of Riverside.

which is a competitor of Riverside.

51:17

And then Do you think, both of them? We're using Riverside now. We use squadcast. We use Zencast or we use every I was with them before, yeah, with squadcast. And then, of course, podcast hosting. Right? There's Castos and live live Libpson and and others.

And then Do you think, both of them? We're using Riverside now. We use squadcast. We use Zencast or we use every I was with them before, yeah, with squadcast. And then, of course, podcast hosting. Right? There's Castos and live live Libpson and and others.

51:29

And

And

51:30

Well, you said, I think. Even podcast editing, like, Allett, I we use I use Audacity, and then my editor uses Adobe something or other. But, like, Allettu, a l I t u, is podcast editing in the browser. So, like, the stacks starting to get there. We have disparate

Well, you said, I think. Even podcast editing, like, Allett, I we use I use Audacity, and then my editor uses Adobe something or other. But, like, Allettu, a l I t u, is podcast editing in the browser. So, like, the stacks starting to get there. We have disparate

51:44

tools to do things. But when HubSpot launched, so I so I know Durham Right? Darmesh and I were bloggers and speakers. We met at BOS in two thousand eight or something. So I remember when HubSpot launched. And

tools to do things. But when HubSpot launched, so I so I know Durham Right? Darmesh and I were bloggers and speakers. We met at BOS in two thousand eight or something. So I remember when HubSpot launched. And

51:55

I remember thinking,

I remember thinking,

51:57

But all of these things exist. Like, in the early days HubSpot was, like, it was, like,

But all of these things exist. Like, in the early days HubSpot was, like, it was, like,

52:02

a blog. I think plus a marketing website plus Google Analytics

a blog. I think plus a marketing website plus Google Analytics

52:07

plus I don't remember what it something is. Email capture form or something like that. It was very simple, but I was like, I could but I remember saying Dharmesh, but I could build that you know, with Mailchimp plus WordPress. You know, it's and he's like, yeah. But business owners don't wanna do that. They wanna bundle

plus I don't remember what it something is. Email capture form or something like that. It was very simple, but I was like, I could but I remember saying Dharmesh, but I could build that you know, with Mailchimp plus WordPress. You know, it's and he's like, yeah. But business owners don't wanna do that. They wanna bundle

52:22

And he was right. I think and he was right. I said they're public and where you guys are, you know, an amazing company. I think of the same thing with podcast production, where I right now, I mean, I've been running a podcast for eleven years, and I have, you know, people helping with it. And

And he was right. I think and he was right. I said they're public and where you guys are, you know, an amazing company. I think of the same thing with podcast production, where I right now, I mean, I've been running a podcast for eleven years, and I have, you know, people helping with it. And

52:36

I literally am in notion

I literally am in notion

52:38

dragging this thing over here and then sending an e that sends an email to my producer to do something that we then log in to Castos to upload. You know what I mean? It's like, where's the hub spot for that? Where's the bundling of the podcast stack? I have a strong opinion. I have two strong opinions. The first

dragging this thing over here and then sending an e that sends an email to my producer to do something that we then log in to Castos to upload. You know what I mean? It's like, where's the hub spot for that? Where's the bundling of the podcast stack? I have a strong opinion. I have two strong opinions. The first

52:54

is I'm almost certain

is I'm almost certain

52:56

No. I'm partially certain that for the most part,

No. I'm partially certain that for the most part,

53:00

podcasting

podcasting

53:01

software and podcasting tools is a horrible business because a few reasons. Very few podcasts are successful, and most all of them are

software and podcasting tools is a horrible business because a few reasons. Very few podcasts are successful, and most all of them are

53:12

broke.

broke.

53:14

Here's my here's the counterpoint to this, because I like to be connected to my wife. So I see the numbers. Alright?

Here's my here's the counterpoint to this, because I like to be connected to my wife. So I see the numbers. Alright?

53:21

Squadcast

Squadcast

53:22

doing several million a year in revenue, and they're not doing it on the fly fishing podcast.

doing several million a year in revenue, and they're not doing it on the fly fishing podcast.

53:27

Think of the three avatars for

Think of the three avatars for

53:30

a a podcast.

a a podcast.

53:32

There there is the hobbyist, my dungeons and dragons podcast, my fly fishing,

There there is the hobbyist, my dungeons and dragons podcast, my fly fishing,

53:36

and they're gonna they're broke, and they're gonna pay nine a month. Right? And they're gonna churn like crazy because they're gonna start. It's too much work. Alright. Then there's the next tier up, which is startup for the rest of us, I'd say my first million is in that where it's like a single show, but if I go to pay a hundred dollars a month for

and they're gonna they're broke, and they're gonna pay nine a month. Right? And they're gonna churn like crazy because they're gonna start. It's too much work. Alright. Then there's the next tier up, which is startup for the rest of us, I'd say my first million is in that where it's like a single show, but if I go to pay a hundred dollars a month for

53:53

squadcast Riverside,

squadcast Riverside,

53:55

a hundred dollars a month for coasting. It's not a big deal to me. Right? And I don't think it is to you. There so it's not nine dollars, but for you, it's like a hundred I think if I were to say, oh, my first money should pay five hundred dollars a month for each of these, you start to feel like, I'm not sure that's worth it, but there's a number there. Okay? So there's a and they and we don't churn. I mean, I've been doing it for twelve years. You guys been doing it for several. It's like the the the S and B of of podcasts. Yes. It's the S and B that actually sticks around. There's hobbyist, there's S and B. Then there's one level up. So there's

a hundred dollars a month for coasting. It's not a big deal to me. Right? And I don't think it is to you. There so it's not nine dollars, but for you, it's like a hundred I think if I were to say, oh, my first money should pay five hundred dollars a month for each of these, you start to feel like, I'm not sure that's worth it, but there's a number there. Okay? So there's a and they and we don't churn. I mean, I've been doing it for twelve years. You guys been doing it for several. It's like the the the S and B of of podcasts. Yes. It's the S and B that actually sticks around. There's hobbyist, there's S and B. Then there's one level up. So there's

54:21

IHeart Radio. There's ESPN's podcast. There's the Kevin Smith podcast.

IHeart Radio. There's ESPN's podcast. There's the Kevin Smith podcast.

54:26

Smallcast. Right? There is Kara Swisher has a whole network,

Smallcast. Right? There is Kara Swisher has a whole network,

54:30

Gimlet media,

Gimlet media,

54:32

NPR, like, once they especially once they went remote, that's the enterprise. But how many of those are there? Because, for example, like, Vox, I think Vox was trying to sell their CM. Like, it's all media companies are like, Oh, we built this proprietary technology to, like, get our articles shared better and, like, things like that. And, like, cool. I would love that technology. But they wanna go out like Washington Post is doing this. They wanna go out and sell their software. And I'm like, how many fucking media companies could pay a hundred grand a year for software? Most media companies are broke and so that's my same thing to podcast is but alright. I agree. Those exist. I wanna be I need to be convinced that there's like enough of them.

NPR, like, once they especially once they went remote, that's the enterprise. But how many of those are there? Because, for example, like, Vox, I think Vox was trying to sell their CM. Like, it's all media companies are like, Oh, we built this proprietary technology to, like, get our articles shared better and, like, things like that. And, like, cool. I would love that technology. But they wanna go out like Washington Post is doing this. They wanna go out and sell their software. And I'm like, how many fucking media companies could pay a hundred grand a year for software? Most media companies are broke and so that's my same thing to podcast is but alright. I agree. Those exist. I wanna be I need to be convinced that there's like enough of them.

55:09

Fan was gonna say something. We should let him talk.

Fan was gonna say something. We should let him talk.

55:13

Say,

Say,

55:14

I was blown away. So we

I was blown away. So we

55:16

got a pitch from one of these recording companies,

got a pitch from one of these recording companies,

55:19

one of the ones that Rob mentioned, I won't say which, but I assumed that the pro tier that Rob was talking about would be, like, ten x, what a normal plan was, and it was, like, one hundred x. It was, like, it was, like, plus a month.

one of the ones that Rob mentioned, I won't say which, but I assumed that the pro tier that Rob was talking about would be, like, ten x, what a normal plan was, and it was, like, one hundred x. It was, like, it was, like, plus a month.

55:35

For,

For,

55:37

a month?

a month?

55:39

A month?

A month?

55:40

For for some house procedures. Yeah.

For for some house procedures. Yeah.

55:43

And,

And,

55:45

The squat? I was blown away. I could not believe that. I was blown away. But anyways, you know, it's worth it for for a lot of people. So, anyway,

The squat? I was blown away. I could not believe that. I was blown away. But anyways, you know, it's worth it for for a lot of people. So, anyway,

55:52

Well, for that type of company, you don't need that many customers, I think, is is maybe the point. Really? Do you get crazy amounts of features with dollars a month?

Well, for that type of company, you don't need that many customers, I think, is is maybe the point. Really? Do you get crazy amounts of features with dollars a month?

56:03

I mean,

I mean,

56:05

they're cool. They are cool features. They're cool features. Wow.

they're cool. They are cool features. They're cool features. Wow.

56:09

That is crazy.

That is crazy.

56:11

That does sound high, I will admit. That's crazy. That's where you don't need that. You don't need that many. Okay. So podcasting is is you're saying it's a good business because there's actually enough customers

That does sound high, I will admit. That's crazy. That's where you don't need that. You don't need that many. Okay. So podcasting is is you're saying it's a good business because there's actually enough customers

56:21

to to make it work. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And podcasting has this other thing that that is,

to to make it work. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And podcasting has this other thing that that is,

56:27

I think, undervalued or just not talked about enough, it's this concept of a dual funnel or a split funnel where

I think, undervalued or just not talked about enough, it's this concept of a dual funnel or a split funnel where

56:33

you have, you know, who else has this

you have, you know, who else has this

56:37

electronic signature. E signature has this, where you have this super wide funnel. There's either free users or very inexpensive users

electronic signature. E signature has this, where you have this super wide funnel. There's either free users or very inexpensive users

56:45

on the low end. And so a lot of people use it. Thus, you build a brand, and you just have five thousand, ten thousand customers, whatever.

on the low end. And so a lot of people use it. Thus, you build a brand, and you just have five thousand, ten thousand customers, whatever.

56:52

Some are just users, some are customers. You also if you have any type of viral loop, that's amazing. Right? You send the link to squadcast or Riverside. You send a link to get a document a little bit of virality. But then on the top end with the signature,

Some are just users, some are customers. You also if you have any type of viral loop, that's amazing. Right? You send the link to squadcast or Riverside. You send a link to get a document a little bit of virality. But then on the top end with the signature,

57:05

similarly, you have realty

similarly, you have realty

57:08

mortgage brokers who

mortgage brokers who

57:10

I need eight thousand documents a month signed, and suddenly that's at ten twenty thirty grand a month. That dual funnel is incredible because when you if you're just enterprise, then you're on rise. Right? And it's like Oracle in the old days. It's like, alright. So we need to close five hundred deals this whole year, but each deal is a million or two million bucks. Right? I mean, that's it's like these massive deals.

I need eight thousand documents a month signed, and suddenly that's at ten twenty thirty grand a month. That dual funnel is incredible because when you if you're just enterprise, then you're on rise. Right? And it's like Oracle in the old days. It's like, alright. So we need to close five hundred deals this whole year, but each deal is a million or two million bucks. Right? I mean, that's it's like these massive deals.

57:29

And it's just this grind of enterprise sales, but when you have the low end funnel and the high end funnel, it's,

And it's just this grind of enterprise sales, but when you have the low end funnel and the high end funnel, it's,

57:35

it feeds on itself and it helps you have a more stable business. The companies that are able to charge,

it feeds on itself and it helps you have a more stable business. The companies that are able to charge,

57:41

six figures a year in software, do you think that a lot of times their software is actually better than the five dollar a

six figures a year in software, do you think that a lot of times their software is actually better than the five dollar a

57:47

month tools that are in the same category, but for different people.

month tools that are in the same category, but for different people.

57:50

Like, is it is it, you know, if a cup if it's five dollars a month versus five hundred thousand dollars a year. Is it actually a thousand times better?

Like, is it is it, you know, if a cup if it's five dollars a month versus five hundred thousand dollars a year. Is it actually a thousand times better?

57:58

No. It's not. And I would it's not.

No. It's not. And I would it's not.

58:01

Five dollars a month, I would say Or whatever. A more accurate one is, like, you know, is if I'm paying two fifth two hundred and fifty a month versus twenty five thousand a month, let's say that's it's a hundred x difference.

Five dollars a month, I would say Or whatever. A more accurate one is, like, you know, is if I'm paying two fifth two hundred and fifty a month versus twenty five thousand a month, let's say that's it's a hundred x difference.

58:13

Those are probably relatively similar. And in fact, a lot of the pricing advice we give to our founders

Those are probably relatively similar. And in fact, a lot of the pricing advice we give to our founders

58:20

or I I give on the podcast as well is

or I I give on the podcast as well is

58:23

the moments

the moments

58:24

someone approaches you a potential customer and says, Cool. We like your software.

someone approaches you a potential customer and says, Cool. We like your software.

58:28

We need to redline your terms of service, or we need, to invoice with POs.

We need to redline your terms of service, or we need, to invoice with POs.

58:34

Or we need single sign on, or we need a Salesforce integration, or we need there's there's this whole list of things that instantly should trigger

Or we need single sign on, or we need a Salesforce integration, or we need there's there's this whole list of things that instantly should trigger

58:42

you should pay about a hundred times more that your price should go up because the sheer headache of dealing with procurement and going through that process

you should pay about a hundred times more that your price should go up because the sheer headache of dealing with procurement and going through that process

58:49

and the maintenance and all the, you know, the interaction.

and the maintenance and all the, you know, the interaction.

58:53

It's not that the software is better. It's that the the time and the headache and the pain of making that sale and maintaining that customer is

It's not that the software is better. It's that the the time and the headache and the pain of making that sale and maintaining that customer is

59:01

that's where it's at. Right? That's where the money spent. But is it that hard to, like,

that's where it's at. Right? That's where the money spent. But is it that hard to, like,

59:06

do the single sign on or, like, isn't there is there not, like, an eighty twenty thing that you can do? Whereas, like, it works for most high end customers

do the single sign on or, like, isn't there is there not, like, an eighty twenty thing that you can do? Whereas, like, it works for most high end customers

59:14

Well, there's two things. Right? It's our repricing on value because I price on value. Right? There's you can price on cost. You can price on value. What's a third?

Well, there's two things. Right? It's our repricing on value because I price on value. Right? There's you can price on cost. You can price on value. What's a third?

59:23

I forgot what the other one is. Anyways, but, certainly, I'm not pricing my SaaS on cost because I would have no margin. Right? So I'm gonna try to price based on the value and

I forgot what the other one is. Anyways, but, certainly, I'm not pricing my SaaS on cost because I would have no margin. Right? So I'm gonna try to price based on the value and

59:33

I could build single sign on it. It's like, hey, let's let everyone have it. But it's a trigger that that company has the ability to pay frankly, are gonna get a lot more value out of it than a one person team using it. Right. You know, it's like gimlet media versus

I could build single sign on it. It's like, hey, let's let everyone have it. But it's a trigger that that company has the ability to pay frankly, are gonna get a lot more value out of it than a one person team using it. Right. You know, it's like gimlet media versus

59:48

Rob Walling comes to,

Rob Walling comes to,

59:50

you know, sign up for your podcast recording. It's like, Gimmelet Media should pay a lot more than me, not because they They need that many more features, but they just should. Their whole business is built on it, and they're making millions of dollars. You know? Yeah.

you know, sign up for your podcast recording. It's like, Gimmelet Media should pay a lot more than me, not because they They need that many more features, but they just should. Their whole business is built on it, and they're making millions of dollars. You know? Yeah.

01:00:03

Any other ideas that interest you at the moment? Oh, yeah.

Any other ideas that interest you at the moment? Oh, yeah.

01:00:07

So I gotta be honest, man. I mean, this is not even a SaaS idea. I'm just gonna throw it out. You know, do you know the website examine dot com? My favorite website out there. Yep. I would put it in top ten. I'm a paying I'm a paying member. There's a new one that I'm looking at called

So I gotta be honest, man. I mean, this is not even a SaaS idea. I'm just gonna throw it out. You know, do you know the website examine dot com? My favorite website out there. Yep. I would put it in top ten. I'm a paying I'm a paying member. There's a new one that I'm looking at called

01:00:21

consumer

consumer

01:00:22

with it's like examine dot com, but for,

with it's like examine dot com, but for,

01:00:25

brands, for vitamin brands. Yep. Anyway Yeah. Examine is nutrition information to So I interviewed the founder,

brands, for vitamin brands. Yep. Anyway Yeah. Examine is nutrition information to So I interviewed the founder,

01:00:32

on my I love Saul. Saul's he's great. I interviewed him on his podcast, Sherry. My wife's been friends with him for several years since they met at an event. So I had him on the show, and I was fascinated by it because I'm like,

on my I love Saul. Saul's he's great. I interviewed him on his podcast, Sherry. My wife's been friends with him for several years since they met at an event. So I had him on the show, and I was fascinated by it because I'm like,

01:00:44

it's nutrition information you can trust. Right? And and you know that, but I'm saying it for the audience.

it's nutrition information you can trust. Right? And and you know that, but I'm saying it for the audience.

01:00:48

Where is the examine dot com for crypto and NFT, like, for web three stuff? Because I feel like there's so much crazy info out there. And there's so many opinions and religious, you know, not truly religious, but like religious fervor

Where is the examine dot com for crypto and NFT, like, for web three stuff? Because I feel like there's so much crazy info out there. And there's so many opinions and religious, you know, not truly religious, but like religious fervor

01:01:01

and the and the Bitcoin maximalist and shit. And it's like,

and the and the Bitcoin maximalist and shit. And it's like,

01:01:04

someone

someone

01:01:05

can do this.

can do this.

01:01:07

Right? That biz in the business so let's talk about that. Examine I've talked about examine on the pod a ton because I think it's One of those sites that I see, I don't think I know how big they are. I mean, like, I would imagine, like, not big, like two or three million of a year in revenue, but I have no idea. That's just a guess. I know it's not big because they don't hire a ton of people. And

Right? That biz in the business so let's talk about that. Examine I've talked about examine on the pod a ton because I think it's One of those sites that I see, I don't think I know how big they are. I mean, like, I would imagine, like, not big, like two or three million of a year in revenue, but I have no idea. That's just a guess. I know it's not big because they don't hire a ton of people. And

01:01:25

I was like, this is one of the most under monetized sites I've I know well.

I was like, this is one of the most under monetized sites I've I know well.

01:01:30

I actually think that their exam, it could be significantly.

I actually think that their exam, it could be significantly.

01:01:33

Exam, it could be a hundred million dollar a year of business, I think.

Exam, it could be a hundred million dollar a year of business, I think.

01:01:37

How? How? How do you think? So there's a bunch of so I would I I think that they for one, they don't do any affiliates. So something like wire cutter, you know wire cutter? Mhmm. Yep.

How? How? How do you think? So there's a bunch of so I would I I think that they for one, they don't do any affiliates. So something like wire cutter, you know wire cutter? Mhmm. Yep.

01:01:47

So in

So in

01:01:48

In New York Times, you know, they're a publicly traded company. They're the wire cutter revenue got

In New York Times, you know, they're a publicly traded company. They're the wire cutter revenue got

01:01:54

classified now as, like, other revenue So I've been trying to like decipher it and figure it out and they do something like close to nine figures in sales from affiliate

classified now as, like, other revenue So I've been trying to like decipher it and figure it out and they do something like close to nine figures in sales from affiliate

01:02:04

affiliates. Examine doesn't wanna do that. But I think they I think they could. I think they could do it a tasteful way and it could work wonderfully because what examine doesn't do is they don't tell you which brands to buy. But I think they should because that's what I want and that's what a lot of people want. Additionally, I think you could sell to doctors. So there's actually another company out there that does like four or five hundred million dollars a year in sales and they sell to doctors. And when you go to the doctor and you have, like, a rash, they just, like, it's like a Wikipedia for doctors. They, like, look it up and, like, the latest studies are there on that.

affiliates. Examine doesn't wanna do that. But I think they I think they could. I think they could do it a tasteful way and it could work wonderfully because what examine doesn't do is they don't tell you which brands to buy. But I think they should because that's what I want and that's what a lot of people want. Additionally, I think you could sell to doctors. So there's actually another company out there that does like four or five hundred million dollars a year in sales and they sell to doctors. And when you go to the doctor and you have, like, a rash, they just, like, it's like a Wikipedia for doctors. They, like, look it up and, like, the latest studies are there on that.

01:02:32

Interesting. And examine you know, I didn't talk to Saul about that, but they don't wanna do it because they don't do they not want it to taint the wanna become a review site. I mean, that's why we don't trust review sites. Right? Is the But I trust

Interesting. And examine you know, I didn't talk to Saul about that, but they don't wanna do it because they don't do they not want it to taint the wanna become a review site. I mean, that's why we don't trust review sites. Right? Is the But I trust

01:02:43

I trust wire cutter.

I trust wire cutter.

01:02:45

Yeah. I mean, I think there the I think there's this way to solve for that. Like, like, do like, if Casey Neistat is a YouTuber who I like, if he tells me a cool product and then there's an affiliate link there. I don't care that it's an affiliate link. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I think there the I think there's this way to solve for that. Like, like, do like, if Casey Neistat is a YouTuber who I like, if he tells me a cool product and then there's an affiliate link there. I don't care that it's an affiliate link. Right.

01:02:58

But anyway, what what, exam I also think examine dot com could work for injuries.

But anyway, what what, exam I also think examine dot com could work for injuries.

01:03:05

Oh, like, medical, like, hey, my knee because, like, to get the definitive

Oh, like, medical, like, hey, my knee because, like, to get the definitive

01:03:09

Yeah. This is that, or just illnesses in general, right, you Google SIM items and, like, rehab.

Yeah. This is that, or just illnesses in general, right, you Google SIM items and, like, rehab.

01:03:16

Yeah. Are you sick or injured enough to make that a thing that you would pay monthly subscription for? Not me. Well,

Yeah. Are you sick or injured enough to make that a thing that you would pay monthly subscription for? Not me. Well,

01:03:22

I don't know. I I don't know if you could make money through subscriptions with that. But I do think that, like, when you have, like, an Achilles injury, you're like, I'm desperate. I'll do anything. I just need to learn, like, because I remember when I was researching for my, like, I had a pain in my leg, I was like,

I don't know. I I don't know if you could make money through subscriptions with that. But I do think that, like, when you have, like, an Achilles injury, you're like, I'm desperate. I'll do anything. I just need to learn, like, because I remember when I was researching for my, like, I had a pain in my leg, I was like,

01:03:36

I, like, I went to all the studies and I just read all the studies. I'm like, I'm just gonna figure this out. I'm not gonna read, like, oh, e, how article and how it is. I'm just gonna go to source and, like, What's the what's the thing that I'm reading about the studies? But how does

I, like, I went to all the studies and I just read all the studies. I'm like, I'm just gonna figure this out. I'm not gonna read, like, oh, e, how article and how it is. I'm just gonna go to source and, like, What's the what's the thing that I'm reading about the studies? But how does

01:03:48

Rob do you know how does examine dot com operate? Like how does that literally work? Because all they do is

Rob do you know how does examine dot com operate? Like how does that literally work? Because all they do is

01:03:53

They, like, pour through all the studies and find the ones that have a good sample size that have definitive proof, and they make a list of, like, these work for sure then they have another list that says these seem like they might be able to work but we can't say for certain and then these are shit. Don't trust.

They, like, pour through all the studies and find the ones that have a good sample size that have definitive proof, and they make a list of, like, these work for sure then they have another list that says these seem like they might be able to work but we can't say for certain and then these are shit. Don't trust.

01:04:10

Pretty much. Yep. And they

Pretty much. Yep. And they

01:04:13

their big hit early on, he said all this on the podcast. It was it was all SEO. Right? It was organic, and then they took a Google dive at some point. Don't know when it was, but, they had already implemented their subscription revenue. I don't even think that they had ads at one point. I don't know that they do anymore. I'm actually on the site looking around. Yeah, that's it. That's how they write the topic. And there, what is their value?

their big hit early on, he said all this on the podcast. It was it was all SEO. Right? It was organic, and then they took a Google dive at some point. Don't know when it was, but, they had already implemented their subscription revenue. I don't even think that they had ads at one point. I don't know that they do anymore. I'm actually on the site looking around. Yeah, that's it. That's how they write the topic. And there, what is their value?

01:04:33

It's the brand. It's the trust.

It's the brand. It's the trust.

01:04:35

You know what I mean? That's why everyone goes to it because they have built that brand that you you trust it and I trust it. But but how do they do that though? Do they literally just have what they go Alright. Editorial team. This week, you, Steve, your writer, your writing topic is, building muscles.

You know what I mean? That's why everyone goes to it because they have built that brand that you you trust it and I trust it. But but how do they do that though? Do they literally just have what they go Alright. Editorial team. This week, you, Steve, your writer, your writing topic is, building muscles.

01:04:55

So go and research everything that helps you. Go research, creatine, protein.

So go and research everything that helps you. Go research, creatine, protein.

01:04:59

The

The

01:05:00

So if I were them, I would be looking They've been around for a decade now. All the topics have been covered. I'm only looking for new information.

So if I were them, I would be looking They've been around for a decade now. All the topics have been covered. I'm only looking for new information.

01:05:10

Right? I'd be monitoring all the journals, all the whatevers and have subscriptions to all that. I don't know exactly how they do it, but that that would be it. Right? It's having having a Google alerts essentially for all the new medical stuff to just update. You just wanna keep it updated.

Right? I'd be monitoring all the journals, all the whatevers and have subscriptions to all that. I don't know exactly how they do it, but that that would be it. Right? It's having having a Google alerts essentially for all the new medical stuff to just update. You just wanna keep it updated.

01:05:23

That's crazy. I can't imagine there's a a new topic they haven't already covered in their thousands of pages. And this would actually make way more money in crypto.

That's crazy. I can't imagine there's a a new topic they haven't already covered in their thousands of pages. And this would actually make way more money in crypto.

01:05:31

Totally.

Totally.

01:05:32

I mean, there's several

I mean, there's several

01:05:33

There's several niches where this this would be interesting. The hardest part is there's a bunch of crypto news sites. And when I go to them, I just don't know I don't trust them. Yeah. You don't know, like, are these guys, like, these, like, hardcore libertarian in the world's gonna end fuck money, like, fuck,

There's several niches where this this would be interesting. The hardest part is there's a bunch of crypto news sites. And when I go to them, I just don't know I don't trust them. Yeah. You don't know, like, are these guys, like, these, like, hardcore libertarian in the world's gonna end fuck money, like, fuck,

01:05:49

cash because it's just stupid.

cash because it's just stupid.

01:05:51

Or are the, you know, like, a a great way to explain it is, like, basically, do you remember, like, the Mac versus PC ads where there was, like, like, cool looking Mac guy versus a nerdy PC guy. And you remember that animosity created between Mac and PC guys? Now

Or are the, you know, like, a a great way to explain it is, like, basically, do you remember, like, the Mac versus PC ads where there was, like, like, cool looking Mac guy versus a nerdy PC guy. And you remember that animosity created between Mac and PC guys? Now

01:06:07

Imagine if each person who owned a Mac or a PC had a million dollars of Apple stock.

Imagine if each person who owned a Mac or a PC had a million dollars of Apple stock.

01:06:13

That's like that's like the the the hate that's like the vibe that you're gonna get. That's right. And so they just fervor with money behind it now. And so it's very hard for me to hear a crypto guy. Even Sean. Sean is one of my best friends and he but I know he's got a lot of crypto. So I'm like, but is this because you are you telling me you what you want to happen or what you think will happen. Right.

That's like that's like the the the hate that's like the vibe that you're gonna get. That's right. And so they just fervor with money behind it now. And so it's very hard for me to hear a crypto guy. Even Sean. Sean is one of my best friends and he but I know he's got a lot of crypto. So I'm like, but is this because you are you telling me you what you want to happen or what you think will happen. Right.

01:06:34

So it's actually really interesting. What would you do to build that? I would start so first thing you have to do is build credibility. You have to start there. So I'd probably start a podcast

So it's actually really interesting. What would you do to build that? I would start so first thing you have to do is build credibility. You have to start there. So I'd probably start a podcast

01:06:43

so that people could hear my thinking

so that people could hear my thinking

01:06:45

week to week.

week to week.

01:06:47

I would definitely be attending all of the crypto events anywhere to get into the network to build trust because if people don't if you're anonymous, like, if you try to build this anonymously, no one's no one's gonna believe it. So I would get it in into the network and then,

I would definitely be attending all of the crypto events anywhere to get into the network to build trust because if people don't if you're anonymous, like, if you try to build this anonymously, no one's no one's gonna believe it. So I would get it in into the network and then,

01:07:01

follow the model. I would look at what it examined you. We know anyone who has done this model, what did they do in terms of of, content,

follow the model. I would look at what it examined you. We know anyone who has done this model, what did they do in terms of of, content,

01:07:09

and then, obviously, just hire writers and look at the white papers and give our opinions

and then, obviously, just hire writers and look at the white papers and give our opinions

01:07:14

And this is actually a cool business because this business could last a hundred years. So, like, if you look at, like, consumer

And this is actually a cool business because this business could last a hundred years. So, like, if you look at, like, consumer

01:07:21

reports, Consumer reports has been around around for decade, decades.

reports, Consumer reports has been around around for decade, decades.

01:07:25

They still do well into the nine figures of a of revenue. So consumer reports

They still do well into the nine figures of a of revenue. So consumer reports

01:07:30

is you know, review site that people pay money for, there are non profit. So all their expenses are public. All their revenue is public and everything, and they're still growing. And so, like, if you do a good job of building a brand, like, on this topic and you start reviewing stuff and you do a good job, you could review many other things and last for a very long time. Kind of a cool company.

is you know, review site that people pay money for, there are non profit. So all their expenses are public. All their revenue is public and everything, and they're still growing. And so, like, if you do a good job of building a brand, like, on this topic and you start reviewing stuff and you do a good job, you could review many other things and last for a very long time. Kind of a cool company.

01:07:50

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:07:51

Yeah. They are still kicking. Anything else interests you?

Yeah. They are still kicking. Anything else interests you?

01:07:55

I am interested in

I am interested in

01:07:57

I mean, this, you know, normally I'm boring b boring businesses are my favorite. Right? Because it's, like, b to b SaaS is is the way to go.

I mean, this, you know, normally I'm boring b boring businesses are my favorite. Right? Because it's, like, b to b SaaS is is the way to go.

01:08:04

I think anytime you can take a concept, like we've said with Builder Prime,

I think anytime you can take a concept, like we've said with Builder Prime,

01:08:09

you know, where it was just like CRM for customers. We have another

you know, where it was just like CRM for customers. We have another

01:08:13

company we funded called client hub, which is basically project management CRM for accountants. And then we have another one that's

company we funded called client hub, which is basically project management CRM for accountants. And then we have another one that's

01:08:21

called Jimdesk, which is basically run your gym business on it. It's like kind of CRM and communication.

called Jimdesk, which is basically run your gym business on it. It's like kind of CRM and communication.

01:08:27

So it's like, where how many niches are there where that works? Some of these are gonna be seven or eight for your businesses. Some of the niches are gonna be very, very small.

So it's like, where how many niches are there where that works? Some of these are gonna be seven or eight for your businesses. Some of the niches are gonna be very, very small.

01:08:35

But that's where you just have to pick. It's like, hey, am I lifestyle strapper because I want a ten, twenty thousand dollar a month business. But I like these ideas of,

But that's where you just have to pick. It's like, hey, am I lifestyle strapper because I want a ten, twenty thousand dollar a month business. But I like these ideas of,

01:08:43

you know, it it depends on your ambition,

you know, it it depends on your ambition,

01:08:45

but if you wanna

but if you wanna

01:08:47

stay small and just build an incredibly profitable business with two people working on a, you know, hundred grand a month. I mean, you can enter a not a less competitive space. If you wanna grow big and grow faster, then you enter a a space like, electronic signature or, like, calendar scheduling links, which we funded companies in both, like, Calendly competitor and, you know, and HelloSign competitor or

stay small and just build an incredibly profitable business with two people working on a, you know, hundred grand a month. I mean, you can enter a not a less competitive space. If you wanna grow big and grow faster, then you enter a a space like, electronic signature or, like, calendar scheduling links, which we funded companies in both, like, Calendly competitor and, you know, and HelloSign competitor or

01:09:03

whatever.

whatever.

01:09:07

There are a lot of competition. You have to move faster, but the market opportunity there is just tremendous. Do you what do

There are a lot of competition. You have to move faster, but the market opportunity there is just tremendous. Do you what do

01:09:14

you do you decide if it's gonna be a eight figure idea or much smaller?

you do you decide if it's gonna be a eight figure idea or much smaller?

01:09:20

Is there a metric that you look for?

Is there a metric that you look for?

01:09:22

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:09:23

That's an interesting question. I usually

That's an interesting question. I usually

01:09:25

so with tiny seed companies when they apply, we say

so with tiny seed companies when they apply, we say

01:09:29

If your ambition is to build a seven figure annual recurring revenue company, then you're in the right place. We get some people who say I really want just a half million dollar business. It's like, great. That's gonna be a great business for you, but that's not really fundable for us. It just doesn't make sense.

If your ambition is to build a seven figure annual recurring revenue company, then you're in the right place. We get some people who say I really want just a half million dollar business. It's like, great. That's gonna be a great business for you, but that's not really fundable for us. It just doesn't make sense.

01:09:44

I think a big piece of Can it get into the, you know, and we'd love to see mid seven figures and up. Right?

I think a big piece of Can it get into the, you know, and we'd love to see mid seven figures and up. Right?

01:09:51

But a big question of can it get there a lot of it is less about market size because most markets

But a big question of can it get there a lot of it is less about market size because most markets

01:09:57

are big enough. There are few markets that are too small. Most of it is,

are big enough. There are few markets that are too small. Most of it is,

01:10:02

the metrics of the business is where we look at the churn

the metrics of the business is where we look at the churn

01:10:06

and we look at the pricing.

and we look at the pricing.

01:10:09

And so if you're if everybody's too price sensitive to your point earlier, if everyone's a fly fisherman podcast and everyone's paying in, you know, ten to twenty bucks a month, and that's kind of where most people are, and then your churn is ten percent. Like, I you just can't, you know, almost impossible to build a million, two million dollar business. But when you get to the point where, hey, my average revenue per user is a hundred or five hundred a month, and your churn is two or three percent.

And so if you're if everybody's too price sensitive to your point earlier, if everyone's a fly fisherman podcast and everyone's paying in, you know, ten to twenty bucks a month, and that's kind of where most people are, and then your churn is ten percent. Like, I you just can't, you know, almost impossible to build a million, two million dollar business. But when you get to the point where, hey, my average revenue per user is a hundred or five hundred a month, and your churn is two or three percent.

01:10:34

You would have to own the whole market.

You would have to own the whole market.

01:10:36

Like, there's almost any market is big enough that that can be a five million dollar business. Alright. My last question.

Like, there's almost any market is big enough that that can be a five million dollar business. Alright. My last question.

01:10:42

How many of these folks building

How many of these folks building

01:10:45

software companies that you see yourself included are nontechnical?

software companies that you see yourself included are nontechnical?

01:10:50

Well, that's a great question. And if they are non technical, what do they do? Yep.

Well, that's a great question. And if they are non technical, what do they do? Yep.

01:10:55

So I'm a developer or was. I haven't written code in years, but We actually asked so we do a state of independent SaaS survey, and we put out a report, an, like, an industry report.

So I'm a developer or was. I haven't written code in years, but We actually asked so we do a state of independent SaaS survey, and we put out a report, an, like, an industry report.

01:11:05

And

And

01:11:06

we asked the question

we asked the question

01:11:08

do you have

do you have

01:11:10

at least one technical founder, right, or, you know, and yes or no. Right? And

at least one technical founder, right, or, you know, and yes or no. Right? And

01:11:16

The number of

The number of

01:11:18

SaaS companies,

SaaS companies,

01:11:19

kind of bootstrap dish SaaS companies with

kind of bootstrap dish SaaS companies with

01:11:22

with no technical founders

with no technical founders

01:11:24

is like

is like

01:11:26

two I believe it's twenty percent. Wow. Twenty five percent. Wow. It

two I believe it's twenty percent. Wow. Twenty five percent. Wow. It

01:11:30

is.

is.

01:11:32

And usually what the expertise they have, they're either the subject matter expert, like, or we're gonna build software for accountants. I was an accountant for twenty We're gonna be a software for UX designers. I'm I was a designer for ten years. They're either that or their

And usually what the expertise they have, they're either the subject matter expert, like, or we're gonna build software for accountants. I was an accountant for twenty We're gonna be a software for UX designers. I'm I was a designer for ten years. They're either that or their

01:11:46

sales or

sales or

01:11:47

marketing. That's what

marketing. That's what

01:11:49

they should have. Now we've seen where there's a developer and then there's, like,

they should have. Now we've seen where there's a developer and then there's, like,

01:11:52

the business purse, the business guy right now. Which just means it's, like, anything. This is yeah. It usually winds up meeting. You're not actually that helpful and you probably shouldn't be a co founder. You know, if you can't sell or market or, like, have input on the product,

the business purse, the business guy right now. Which just means it's, like, anything. This is yeah. It usually winds up meeting. You're not actually that helpful and you probably shouldn't be a co founder. You know, if you can't sell or market or, like, have input on the product,

01:12:06

Yeah. Or or develop it. Like, those are really the four roles.

Yeah. Or or develop it. Like, those are really the four roles.

01:12:10

You probably shouldn't be. So if I'm if I, like, I'm not I'm not technical, but I,

You probably shouldn't be. So if I'm if I, like, I'm not I'm not technical, but I,

01:12:17

I can, like, tie stuff together and use Zapier, and I'm super creative. How do I start a start a software company without hiring or I would may if maybe hiring's it, but without having a co founder.

I can, like, tie stuff together and use Zapier, and I'm super creative. How do I start a start a software company without hiring or I would may if maybe hiring's it, but without having a co founder.

01:12:28

Right. So for you, since you have money, you would either acquire something because there's always stuff for sale that you may wanna acquire and then just grow if you have a content marketing expertise, or you would hire, you know, a developer or an agency or something to build it. If you don't have the money,

Right. So for you, since you have money, you would either acquire something because there's always stuff for sale that you may wanna acquire and then just grow if you have a content marketing expertise, or you would hire, you know, a developer or an agency or something to build it. If you don't have the money,

01:12:44

a lot of people

a lot of people

01:12:45

nontechnical will work a day job and actually funnel money to the side to basically pay for a developer to do it.

nontechnical will work a day job and actually funnel money to the side to basically pay for a developer to do it.

01:12:53

The other two approaches, I've seen her exactly what you said, which is I'm gonna build my minimum viable product

The other two approaches, I've seen her exactly what you said, which is I'm gonna build my minimum viable product

01:12:58

using Zapier

using Zapier

01:13:00

and Notion and chewing gum. Alright. And I'm just gonna cobble it together to the point where, hey, if I get a few grand and revenue this proves it, and I'm gonna use that to get it built. It's a harder way to go, but it's possible. The last one I've seen, which is genius.

and Notion and chewing gum. Alright. And I'm just gonna cobble it together to the point where, hey, if I get a few grand and revenue this proves it, and I'm gonna use that to get it built. It's a harder way to go, but it's possible. The last one I've seen, which is genius.

01:13:13

And this is what the founder Casto stated because he's not he's a single founder, not a developer.

And this is what the founder Casto stated because he's not he's a single founder, not a developer.

01:13:18

He worked a day job. He started a productized service podcast editing.

He worked a day job. He started a productized service podcast editing.

01:13:23

And he high he got it up to I forgot what the number was, thirty or forty grand a month in productized, podcast. He was one of the earlier ones, which was called podcast motor. He was working a day job the whole time. So then, well, he was actually doing the editing, or he would he did it at first and then and then got someone overseas. Exactly. Yep. Yep. Or even even as folks in US and Canada doing it. And there was enough profit margin that he then started reinvesting

And he high he got it up to I forgot what the number was, thirty or forty grand a month in productized, podcast. He was one of the earlier ones, which was called podcast motor. He was working a day job the whole time. So then, well, he was actually doing the editing, or he would he did it at first and then and then got someone overseas. Exactly. Yep. Yep. Or even even as folks in US and Canada doing it. And there was enough profit margin that he then started reinvesting

01:13:48

know, and said, I will now I wanna build. Now that I'm doing podcast hosting, he actually was in the podcast space. Someone says I have this WordPress podcast plugin for podcast hosting on WordPress and I want someone to kind of adopt it type thing. Since he was doing something in public, they approached him. He bought it for not very much money, and then he built the entire, you know, what, again, is a figure business. He's raised, you know, three aside from us, he's raised three quarters of a million dollars and it's growing fast. So that's the other way to do it is, like, even I was a developer, and I had to do it nights and weekends too, you know, and I was pulling money away from the day job. For the agency and and hiring a dev developer, what what's the best way to do that? Do a lot of these folks, like, a lot, like, when I was starting, everyone said, like, oh, just go on Odesk and hire someone in India to do it. And I'm like, oh, no, man. That doesn't sound like I can, like, like

know, and said, I will now I wanna build. Now that I'm doing podcast hosting, he actually was in the podcast space. Someone says I have this WordPress podcast plugin for podcast hosting on WordPress and I want someone to kind of adopt it type thing. Since he was doing something in public, they approached him. He bought it for not very much money, and then he built the entire, you know, what, again, is a figure business. He's raised, you know, three aside from us, he's raised three quarters of a million dollars and it's growing fast. So that's the other way to do it is, like, even I was a developer, and I had to do it nights and weekends too, you know, and I was pulling money away from the day job. For the agency and and hiring a dev developer, what what's the best way to do that? Do a lot of these folks, like, a lot, like, when I was starting, everyone said, like, oh, just go on Odesk and hire someone in India to do it. And I'm like, oh, no, man. That doesn't sound like I can, like, like

01:14:34

yeah. So, like, you what what what are there any agencies that you like or for hiring devs Are you hiring someone by the hour in America?

yeah. So, like, you what what what are there any agencies that you like or for hiring devs Are you hiring someone by the hour in America?

01:14:42

What what's what do you typically see? Yeah. I typically see I see a lot of people going either through referrals, like you get into a community,

What what's what do you typically see? Yeah. I typically see I see a lot of people going either through referrals, like you get into a community,

01:14:51

microcom connect or indie hackers or

microcom connect or indie hackers or

01:14:54

whatever, dynamite circle, and you ask you say, who has used someone whom you trust. Right? So you try to get that referral. It's not just a a flat look because going to Upwork, which used to be Odess, is kind of a shit show these days. The other thing is there are now these

whatever, dynamite circle, and you ask you say, who has used someone whom you trust. Right? So you try to get that referral. It's not just a a flat look because going to Upwork, which used to be Odess, is kind of a shit show these days. The other thing is there are now these

01:15:10

referral services aggregators. There's one called trust shoring

referral services aggregators. There's one called trust shoring

01:15:14

which is run by a guy who attends Microsoft, but he basically knows a bunch of Eastern European

which is run by a guy who attends Microsoft, but he basically knows a bunch of Eastern European

01:15:19

dev agencies.

dev agencies.

01:15:20

And if you come to him and say, I wanna build an iOS app. He'll say cool. I have these three agencies that I that I refer to. He's almost like a broker in a way, but, like, he's a good dude and he knows them, you know, and So he and he's vetted them. And then there's one called cloud devs

And if you come to him and say, I wanna build an iOS app. He'll say cool. I have these three agencies that I that I refer to. He's almost like a broker in a way, but, like, he's a good dude and he knows them, you know, and So he and he's vetted them. And then there's one called cloud devs

01:15:35

dot com, and they do the similar thing for Latin America.

dot com, and they do the similar thing for Latin America.

01:15:39

And so the next one that Do you like do you like top towel or anything like that? Top towel's good. It's expensive.

And so the next one that Do you like do you like top towel or anything like that? Top towel's good. It's expensive.

01:15:47

Because I think it's hundred fifteen hours. So it depends on budget and all that if you're if you're scraping by. I haven't used top towel, but I've had friends use it. And I heard quality was really good in the early days, and, of course, like, anything it gets, you know, less and less, but, that's certainly something you could try too. How much would you budget to create an MVP?

Because I think it's hundred fifteen hours. So it depends on budget and all that if you're if you're scraping by. I haven't used top towel, but I've had friends use it. And I heard quality was really good in the early days, and, of course, like, anything it gets, you know, less and less, but, that's certainly something you could try too. How much would you budget to create an MVP?

01:16:04

It depends on what it is. You're talking like a SAS app. Here's the other thing, man. If you're if you are nontechnical and you've never started a startup before, I would say don't build a SAS app. It's too hard. Like go I have this thing called the stair step approach to bootstrapping, which is like start small with like a WordPress plugin, a HubSpot add on, a Salesforce add on, a Haroku add on, and go build that, cut your teeth at it. It's way less expensive, way harder to maintain, way easier to maintain. You get the experience. You get some revenue. Then

It depends on what it is. You're talking like a SAS app. Here's the other thing, man. If you're if you are nontechnical and you've never started a startup before, I would say don't build a SAS app. It's too hard. Like go I have this thing called the stair step approach to bootstrapping, which is like start small with like a WordPress plugin, a HubSpot add on, a Salesforce add on, a Haroku add on, and go build that, cut your teeth at it. It's way less expensive, way harder to maintain, way easier to maintain. You get the experience. You get some revenue. Then

01:16:31

grow it to enough that you can buy out, just buy out your day job, eight grand eight grand a month, maybe ten grand a month. Then now you have experience, you can double down and

grow it to enough that you can buy out, just buy out your day job, eight grand eight grand a month, maybe ten grand a month. Then now you have experience, you can double down and

01:16:40

and do it. It's awesome. To your to your question of building an MVP of a SaaS app,

and do it. It's awesome. To your to your question of building an MVP of a SaaS app,

01:16:46

ten to thirty grand power to throw it out. But and you think a non technical person could actually maintain that and understand what's going?

ten to thirty grand power to throw it out. But and you think a non technical person could actually maintain that and understand what's going?

01:16:55

Well, no. Then you'd need to have that agency stick around. That's what I'm saying. If you're non technical

Well, no. Then you'd need to have that agency stick around. That's what I'm saying. If you're non technical

01:17:00

you either need some money. I mean, this is why folks, you build it and you're you pre sell it. You you get to the point where there's enough revenue

you either need some money. I mean, this is why folks, you build it and you're you pre sell it. You you get to the point where there's enough revenue

01:17:08

that you can then justify, you know, raising funding, right, if you're if you're nontechnical, or you have a side job that's, putting money into it. Well, thanks for coming and and talking about this. I you you have a good view of what's going on in in this space. I think it's bad ass. Awesome.

that you can then justify, you know, raising funding, right, if you're if you're nontechnical, or you have a side job that's, putting money into it. Well, thanks for coming and and talking about this. I you you have a good view of what's going on in in this space. I think it's bad ass. Awesome.

01:17:24

Yeah. That's great. Thanks so much for coming on, Rob. Appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you guys. I really appreciate it. You're so good. This is awesome. Do you wanna give a pitch? Where where do where do people follow you most?

Yeah. That's great. Thanks so much for coming on, Rob. Appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you guys. I really appreciate it. You're so good. This is awesome. Do you wanna give a pitch? Where where do where do people follow you most?

01:17:34

So I'm on Twitter at rob Walling. And frankly, they listen to this podcast. They would probably, like, start up to the rest of us. It's more focused on, you know, SAS and startups, but thirty five minutes every week for five hundred and ninety episodes.

So I'm on Twitter at rob Walling. And frankly, they listen to this podcast. They would probably, like, start up to the rest of us. It's more focused on, you know, SAS and startups, but thirty five minutes every week for five hundred and ninety episodes.

01:17:47

That's bad ass. I'm I'm a fan. I've been listening to you for a long time. Almost ten years, it feels like Thank you. This is awesome. Thanks for coming. Thanks so much, Sam.

That's bad ass. I'm I'm a fan. I've been listening to you for a long time. Almost ten years, it feels like Thank you. This is awesome. Thanks for coming. Thanks so much, Sam.

01:17:55

Boom.

Boom.

01:17:56

That's it.

That's it.

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