Encarta | Threads Becomes The Fastest Growing App Of All Time... (#473)

00:00

But there's a funny tweet from,

00:02

Parker. I think it's Parker Thompson on Twitter. He he he replied to that. He goes, okay. So for those keeping score at home, Eela,

00:09

Eli brought a brought a product for forty four billion.

00:12

And then Zuck built the same product for a thousand times less, stealing all of his users like an absolute chat, It is god willing about to choke him out in ninety seconds of steel cage soon.

00:21

So that's what a cuck means now.

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Alright. What's up? Today's episode, we're talking about threads versus Twitter, the big debate, and we're gonna talk about where we where we land. Our predictions for what we think is gonna happen, how it's gonna play out.

00:44

We told him some funny stories. And then in the second half, we have a, an interview with a guy named Sam Ofit. So Sam met Sam met this guy, Sam, he used to run a business called consulting dot com that at its peak hit thirty million

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in revenue.

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He was all over our Facebook feeds as kinda like one of these internet marketer guys. And so we were curious, like, who is this guy? And what's he all about?

01:07

Definitely an interesting interview.

01:09

I would say,

01:10

he had some interesting stuff to say. Also, his energy was totally different than most of the guests and also different than what you would expect out of an internet marker. So I'm curious to see what people think of it. I would say it's, you know, a sort of like a a different style of energy than we've done before. Sam, what do you think?

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So for those watching on YouTube, I'm sweating right now. The reason I'm sweating is around minute thirty five.

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I can't stop laughing. I'm still laughing about it. You're gonna enjoy it. The Taco Bell story. Let's just leave it at that. Oh my god. It's ridiculous.

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I don't know, like, how this story came about in a business pod. I'm happy it did. I'm sweating right now. If you are on

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Spotify or Apple and you're listening to this, go to our YouTube page,

01:52

search my first million. Go to this episode. Let us know in the comments what you think. People liked when we did that last time, Sean. We got a lot of comments, got a lot of good feedback. It's it's, we actually it's been fun to read all the comments, but let us know what you think

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We'll talk to you soon.

02:07

Alright. What's up?

02:08

Sam, we gotta talk about

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threads, threads versus Twitter.

02:14

It, threads came out a few days ago. We've had a few days to to play with it, to sit on it, to think about it,

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And,

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I think everybody's given their opinion on it.

02:25

And why not ours?

02:27

I wanna hear what you what you have to say about this. I have a

02:30

I have a I have kind of like a way. I think we could talk about this. The, what I'm calling the Bullid Bear case. So the Bull case, the Bear case, and then where we land, But I first just wanna hear, like, I don't know, when did you get on it, and what was your kind of initial reaction? How how on your radar was this thing to begin with?

02:46

I had only heard about it three or four days before it launched and I heard about it because

02:50

02:51

a leak. I think there was a leak. Right? The somehow it leaked out that it was coming out So I downloaded the app, like the you can download it before it launched, and then I got the notification

03:00

right at midnight or whenever it said it launched. And I signed up. I think it's pretty cool. Are you jealous that I already have more followers than you do on that? Because I was already going hard on Instagram?

03:09

No. Well, yeah. Yeah. Going hard on Instagram paid off there. You got, like, like, a double bonus for for growing your Instagram. So so props to you on that.

03:19

I think it's great. Know why I think it's great. I really only think it's great for one reason, which is Twitter to me is pretty great.

03:26

But, dude, my feed is just like fight videos and people getting shot and dying. Like, it's real it's kind of become a little bit sad. That's unusual. I also

03:34

I don't know. Anybody else's fault. You know, when you click the follow button and the like button and the save button, the algorithm will just give you more.

03:42

Look, here's the deal. If you see, like, a fight video, you watch it. Like, you're not not gonna watch that. It's like when you have a hot girl that, like, scrolls through, like, you're you slow you scroll

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slower. What is this? How does this get here?

03:55

Alright?

03:56

Keeps where it's going?

03:58

Yeah. So it's just all these weird handles. I also think that I've

04:03

I've become such a stand for Zuck. And this whole thing, he's just proven to be, like, the man he's in he's he's come off very likable. And so I find myself picking sides based off of the owner of the company.

04:15

Yeah. Yeah. It's become it's it's become sports. It's become tribal.

04:19

Whose team are you on? And I don't know how the hell I ended up team Zuck, but I'm, like,

04:24

I'm on team Zuck. It's very obvious to me. It's very clear. I think this guy's done an incredible rebrand of his personality

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because he went from, like,

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easy to hate for a bunch of reasons. One, becomes rich and powerful. People don't like that.

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Two,

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he looked like a robot, talked like a robot seemed to have no personality.

04:44

So, you know, that was, you know, again, like, for the people who didn't get turned off by the power and billionaire thing, they got turned off by okay, this guy's a lizard or he's a robot. Like, what what's going on with this guy?

04:56

And then somehow,

04:58

It's you know, he hired the top top PR agencies in the world. He hired the the fixer. The Wolf came in and tried to fix it. All he needed to do was start working out. He the guy guy takes ten digit two classes and and learns how to do a pull up, and all of a sudden, idiots like us are like, you know what?

05:15

I fucked with this guy. Yeah. I think he's relatable somehow. Yeah. Totally worked on me. And then to the point where you start thinking about it, this happened also with LeBron James. LeBron James at one point, he was super hyped. Then he became the guy, then people started to turn on him. Then he did this thing where he left his team, went to Miami, and everyone's like, oh, I hate this guy.

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And then somebody's pointing out that, like, so you're telling me this kid who had all the pressure in the world,

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when he was seventeen, eighteen years old,

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delivered on the hype lived up to it. Never gotten trouble with the law. You've never heard about this guy. You know, married his high school sweetheart. He's a good dad to his kids.

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You know, is is one of the best players of all time and just, like, keeps himself in phenomenal, fitness and shape and tries as hard as he can every single year. What what do you have a problem with? And in the same way, I feel like the same that's happened for Zuck, where it's like so this guy who built this company that billions of people use,

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stuck with the company. He's he works hard every single day.

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You know, married, you know, his college sweetheart,

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never been in trouble with anything. Doesn't tweet out offensive stuff. Doesn't say anything just to get a reaction.

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Seems like a perfectly reasonable guy. Works out hard. He's a good dad. Like, do you hate about this guy again? What's going on? Do you know how old Zuck is? I don't know. He's like Ari. He's a little old with us. Right? He's like thirty seven, thirty eight, thirty nine.

06:31

Yeah. He's he's he just turned thirty nine. You know, in LeBron, also thirty eight. These guys are the same, man. They are the same. They've been Dude, Since they were a team. Yeah. Yeah. LeBron got drafted. What he was a high school. Right? Eighteen at high school.

06:45

Zuck has been the man since he was twenty one or twenty two. There's been nothing. I mean, there's been, like, if you look at the grand scheme, it's there's been no, like, human,

06:54

errors. No. No. No self Yeah. There's been, like, business airs that have been cringe, but there's been nothing that they've done where you're, like, oh, that guy's a piece of shit. If your biggest crime is cringe,

07:03

You're doing alright. You know what I mean? Yes. When you're the man for that long, that is impossible. That is so challenging

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to do that. So you know what I mean? So we're we're clearly Zuck fan was. Let's talk about threads though. Oh, and by the way, did you see what Elon posted? I don't know. Did you see it on Twitter? He goes,

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Zuck is a cock. You know what a cock is? Yeah. Yeah. I did. I I had to look it up, actually. A cock is a a cock is a guy. Who wants his wife to sleep with other men, and he, like, enjoys it. And then he also goes, I challenge Zuck to a dick measuring contest.

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Literally a dick measuring contest. Like, he says something like that. And I'm dude, he says something like that. And I'm like, oh my god. You're He's an absolute try hard to me. Don't don't like it. It says, by the way, there's a funny tweet from, Parker. I think it's Parker Thompson on Twitter. He he he replied to that. He goes, okay. So for those keeping score at home, Ela. Eli brought a brought a product for forty four billion. And then Zuck built the same product for a thousand times less, is stealing all of his users like an absolute chat, It is god willing about to choke him out in ninety seconds of steel cage soon. So that's what a cuck means now.

08:10

I think it's great, man. Zack, it's just looking great on this. Alright. So but threads, you have on here that they grew to seventy million. It's actually a hundred. It's a hundred. So they grew to a hundred million users in a week So we'll we'll deliver the bowl case first. So the bowl case is this.

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Will and and the will threads win,

08:28

argument. So the bowl case is We're five days in, and they've reached a hundred million users making it the fastest growing product of all time.

08:36

Okay.

08:37

Instagram has about a billion and a half users,

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they seem to be converting over pretty quickly to this. We already got a hundred million on the platform. If twenty percent of Instagram users come on board, it's now bigger than Twitter. So twenty percent conversion from from Instagram is what they're gonna need. They've done, you know, like, I don't know, five percent or something like that, out of the public math. Something like five percent so far in five days.

09:00

The next reason that this is bullish is Instagram support. Zuck shared that on threats. He said,

09:06

he goes, he he said, we just hit a hundred million. And he said, we've not even really promoted it yet. Yeah. Yeah. We haven't even done our promo yet.

09:13

Which is yes. Nice. It's also really cool that he's revealing some of the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. He's really active on it right now.

09:20

Part victory lap, part, like, community engagement, which is which is cool.

09:24

And he tweeted for the first time in, like, fifteen years, right, on the day of lunch, which is, which is also nice. And it was, like, the meme of the three Spider Man's pointing at the other. It was pretty it was great. He's he, you know, he's in all the jokes. Whoever he hired, like, his nephew or whoever, like, just give me their give me your app. Give me your phone. I'm gonna make you likable.

09:43

Like, hey, instead of, like, fighting it, just post a meme. It's cool. Don't worry. But he needs a verb. So there's no verb. What what do you say? You threaded it? Are you you posted it? Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. We're threading. I don't know what's going on. So

09:56

The the interesting part is I'll go on threads, and

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I expect to see the same sorts of people on as I do on Twitter. And there's some But there's a whole new market of people who were basically

10:06

never on Twitter. Just didn't like, Twitter didn't work for them. And so,

10:12

So, you know, you get a whole new set of people that are gonna use threads that weren't they don't have to switch off of Twitter. They're just new people to a Twitter like behavior. So it can basically beat Twitter without getting people to switch because it's expanding the market. Twitter is I don't know if you know this. Twitter is basically the most abandoned product.

10:31

I think ever.

10:32

So more than a billion people have signed up for Twitter or tried Twitter, And then be like,

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no. I don't get it. I'm good.

10:40

Just -- Yeah. -- that's not for me. And now the the big question, the the, like, sort of, like, the hundred billion dollar two hundred billion dollar question is,

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is that because

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the idea of Twitter doesn't appeal to that many people? Or that Twitter's execution was not good enough to hook those people. And if it's the idea, then those same people who try threads will eventually bounce because they're, like, just people who like to look at pictures and videos. They don't wanna write text and and read random as text messages from different people. So

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If it's the idea,

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the Twitter's safe. All these people will try it and they'll bounce.

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But if it was the execution, if it was that Twitter didn't hook them properly.

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Then they're screwed. Because

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if there's one thing that that the Instagram and and Facebook teams are gonna do well, is they're gonna execute. You can already see it in the small things that they're doing with. They're like, yeah. We're just gonna make, like, kind of, like, the feed work better and blocking and muting. And, like, all of the, like, All of the stuff, we're just gonna do the stuff good. The stuff that they've been doing for twenty years, which is like, hey, when somebody signs up, let's just make it really easy for them to find, like, their friends are interesting people for them. And, like, let's just make this this feed killer. Like, this is like this algorithm killer where you just wanna keep scrolling. Stuff that Twitter never really did. Like, if you go look at Twitter's ad product. Like, have you ever run Twitter ads? Yeah. So this is what I was gonna say. This is another bit, bowl case, which is if you if if you've never run ads before and you go talk to anyone who has run any ads, Facebook is always in the top two or three parts of the conversation. So normally it's number one. It's usually the best platform. I've spent maybe ten plus million dollars of my own,

12:17

like me actually running ads Facebook is always number one. Twitter is never part of the conversation. I don't even I don't know if I don't even know if it's any I don't know if it's like that anymore because I haven't run ads on it for a couple of years. On it now. I'm running ads on it literally right now. And,

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it works, but the ad platform is so

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trash compared to Facebook and Google's ad platform,

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which is so surprising. Because that's how they make money. You would think they're highly incentivized to do it. So anyways, I guess my my bigger point is not really about who's who's ad platform's gonna be better. It's just But that matters. Gonna be execution on all the details on on getting people linked up with the right people, making the feed super interesting and role, you know, and and handling spam better and abuse better and all the things that Twitter has struggled with over

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over the years. So the poll case is basically this, hundred million users. If they convert some of Instagram people, they'll be bigger than Twitter. They don't even need people from

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Twitter to switch. They can just bring net new people to the market. And that,

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and they can just continue to promote this across Instagram and WhatsApp.

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So that's the bull case.

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Now I'm gonna switch to the to the bear case. Oh, also part of the bull case, Twitter shoots itself in the foot a lot. So Elon does a lot of dumb shit pisses a lot of people off. They,

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he's basically pushing to, like, basically put a paywall where, like, you have to pay eight dollars a month in order to, like, have your shit be seen in the in the feed. So that's basically introducing friction. He added the tweet limit not long ago, which introduces friction

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because which is insane. No more tweets for you.

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Cut off, like, the ability to post tweets and have them embed in other places because he was like, oh, we're getting scraped too much. So he he basically put a login wall in front of the content. Like, he's adding friction everywhere. So these are these are foot faults. These are, you know, nobody this is not threads killing you. This is you killing you. So that's that's part of the bull case. Now here's the bear case.

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Why this won't work?

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If I was to argue why this won't work, here's what I would say. I'd say,

14:09

He named the last Facebook standalone product that just worked? Not one that they bought, but one that they made.

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And that's where there's really a kind of a graveyard of poke and a bunch of these other apps that they tried to create. They tried to create a TikTok competitor. It didn't work. They tried to create a snap tech competitor. It didn't work. So there is a graveyard of these things. The only things that have worked have been things that they put into the Instagram app, like stories and reals.

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Because people are hooked on Instagram. So the standalone app thing hasn't really worked, and this is a standalone app.

14:39

The next problem, just because a hundred million people try it doesn't mean they're actually gonna stick. There's gonna be massive churn just like there is when Have you gone back? Yeah. I I I open it up right now, but, like, I'm not, like, hooked on it,

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completely myself yet. Are you?

14:53

I'm not hooked yet. No. I'm definitely not hooked yet. On Twitter, but I've also built up, like,

14:59

a big following plus a bunch of people that I follow said my feed is more interesting on Twitter. It's a cur I've been curative for ten years. I was gonna say we might be the one percent, the one per percent because we make a living in part because of Twitter. And so we could be, like, there could be a part of it of, like, oh, shit. I don't wanna use this other thing because I already have this one thing that's working, and this thing is just gonna cannibalize it. So I can't tell if there's that bias there or or what it is, but, no, I'm not hooked yet. But I am opening it, maybe once a day, maybe once every two days. I am a little bit, like, shit. I don't want another thing to have to use.

15:31

But I am happy that it's text based because that's where I excel because, you know, I'm a Missouri six, but,

15:38

15:39

But I'm a Microsoft nine.

15:41

Yeah. I don't wanna I'm not, like, I'm not, I don't I got the I got a good face for Twitter.

15:47

So, like, I prefer that. But I Yeah. We we're the outliers because both of us have, I know, so the other we probably have almost almost a million followers together on on Twitter. And so going now I go to threads, I have three thousand followers or something. I have starting from scratch again. And, you know, I'm like that guy who

16:04

I moved to San Francisco,

16:07

and I bought a house,

16:09

and I just raided my lawn,

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And then everybody started moving, and they started raising the prices. And I'm like, I'm I'm dug in.

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I'm like Yeah. I'm dug in. I already paid for the rental.

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You know, like, I I guess I'm just here. What everyone else is is choosing places that might be a better fit. So so you know, we we might be the wrong person there.

16:28

Here's the other reasons that Twitter might win.

16:31

Twitter after the churn,

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it, you know, threads might have twenty million or thirty million

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active users compared to Twitter's three hundred million. Right? So I think there's gonna be so much churn that This hundred million number is a bit of fool's gold. The next thing.

16:47

Twitter has key content, so it has news, it has sports. So it's got the journalist, it's got the athletes. It's got the the people that cover the NBA and the NFL. Like, it's got famous people. It's, basically, got, like, this key,

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like, rapid breaking news and influential content,

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threads is gonna have new content, but, like, The type of person who's big on IG may not be the right type of person for what works in this text medium. We don't TBD. There's a TBD on that. The next thing. Threads is just a straight up clone. There are no product improvements, and in fact, there's some big drawbacks. Like, they don't have DMs.

17:22

They don't have, like, you know, Dude, I get DMs. I've been getting DMs. I think. I don't know what you're called. There's no inbox.

17:28

People have been messaging me. Let me pull it up. But I think they're at mentioning you. There's there's definitely no no. No. Maybe that's what it is. I I don't even know how to use it yet. Then, yeah, it's it's a it's a mention, but it looks like a DM. Like, the the thing looks like a DM. Alright. Yeah. You're right. So it's just and they closed the app, but they left some things out. Now that might that might make it better. But, for the most part, I would say the product strategy like, if you've printed out the road map, it's like, here's some features that you turn the page, and it just says, not Elon Musk. Like, not Twitter. Right? Like, it's just basically Here's not Twitter. And, like, there's a bunch of people who don't like Elon, don't like Twitter, and they'll just try this out. So I don't know if that's a great long term product strategy.

18:05

Oh, by the way, speaking of mediums and leaving things out, do you use Twitter on your phone or desktop?

18:10

Both. Yeah.

18:11

I mostly use it on desktop, and I used the thread app. And I was like, hey, when's when I need a desktop thing, and that's why I prefer typing on it. And people were, like, calling me boomer and shit. And, apparently Yeah. That is that's some boomer shit. Dude, that's some boomer shit, I guess. But I hate using it on my phone. I wanna use it on my computer so I could scroll through and click shit. Yeah. That's, like, if a guy knocks on the bathroom stalls, like, hey. I gotta take a piss sitting down. And you're, like, what? What? Like, I it's not illegal to do what you're saying, but

18:38

certainly not acceptable.

18:40

And that's Yeah. You're more of you're what are you more of a pee with your shorts down at your ankle type of guy while standing up?

18:46

So so your your desktop thing, it's okay to use desktop, but let's not let's not

18:51

I think most I not most. I think a ton of people do that, man. I'm telling you, the older guys, I guess I'm old now, but I I needed

18:59

I I need that stuff. That's who we should appeal to as a social media platform. The older guys.

19:06

Yeah. We'll call it khaki.

19:08

Alright. So here's here's a couple other things, which is,

19:12

the best creators on Twitter. So the people who have Basically, in a ten, fifteen year period, proven that they're really good at creating text based content, now have a big following and don't really wanna start over from scratch on on Instagram. A k a. Me. Yeah. So so I think those are some of the some of the downsides of this.

19:29

But I do think, you know, once you take into account the bowl and the bear case,

19:34

is prediction time. How do you think that this plays out?

19:39

Well, you have to let's do an intro. Interesting nuggets really quick. If it doesn't work out, Nikita, our friend Nikita, who is worked at Meta and did all the social stuff, what did he say? He was basically, like, you know, this thing's gonna be at a hundred million users soon. And if it fails after that, that will sort of officially make it the biggest fail in social app history at that point. Which I don't think that really means anything, to be honest.

20:01

I think the truth is I think it's gonna end up closer to the bowl than it is the bear. I think it will it will more work than it does fail. I don't think Elon would ever sell Twitter out of, like, pride reasons, but I think it will If it weren't run by, a billionaire, I think it would effectively

20:18

put it out of business,

20:19

for the ad ad purposes.

20:22

I think it's gonna I think it's gonna work. I don't know if it will overtake, but I think it's gonna work so good that it's gonna cannibalize Twitter and it's they're gonna be at least equal.

20:31

The CEO of Cloudflare tweeted out a a chart. I don't know if you saw this, of Twitter traffic, because Cloudflare has, like, Canada.

20:38

They run, like

20:40

That's fucked up. Right? In some way.

20:42

It's yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they haven't paid their bill. Maybe there's also That's like a doctor. That's like a doctor, like, revealing, like, your illnesses. Isn't it? It's, like, it's, like, these two guys are making fun of each other. It's, like, actually, this guy his cholesterol all is way worse than yours.

20:58

Right? Yes. Like, if you wanna beat them up, but kick them in the left knee.

21:05

He, he did that basically. He tweeted out showing that this, that Twitter down, like, five percent in overall traffic so far this week,

21:12

from from threat. So it's, like, you know, He said, like, it's, plummeting or something like that, like, dropping off a cliff, which is, like, pretty dramatic for, I don't know, five percent, I wouldn't call plummeting, but,

21:23

That's weird that he shared that. That's super weird. Yeah.

21:27

Yeah. I I it's gonna be closer to the ball. I and what whenever I've learned, Nikita actually would always joke about this, he would say never, ever, ever bet against Zuck. And I've heard so many people say that. What I bet against Elon, for sure,

21:42

not often.

21:43

Not often. I think that he he follows through a lot. He's just been closer to death so many times, and I don't think Zach entirely has.

21:51

I just think that Zuckerberg, when it comes to this field, like, the consumer social. I just think that he's I would not bet against that person. Yeah. Exactly. I think that's the that's the rub here. I think that

22:03

It's not Zuck versus Elon, Imano Imano, like, the, you know, like, in the same way that in the cage, Zuck will probably win because he trains he's been training jujitsu for, like, you know, a couple years. So that's, like, gives him a little head start.

22:17

In the same way that Zuck probably could not build a rocket company or a car company. Your plan I mean, you couldn't even build oculus. Like, you couldn't even, like, do that type of hardware. Still pretty well, to be honest. It's doing okay, but I think that they're gonna miss they're not gonna be, like, the one.

22:32

Perhaps. We'll see. But I guess, like, it it's his domain. The social app thing is is their domain. They have Instagram. I think I'm with you. I land where I do think threads will be bigger than Twitter. I don't think it kills Twitter.

22:45

I just think it sort of stunts whatever

22:48

slow growth that Twitter has.

22:50

It just stunts it even further,

22:52

and Twitter remains this kind of niche.

22:55

This basically, this thing that has really strong appeal to a niche, And I think that threads becomes the more

23:02

mainstream

23:04

version of it. Like, I think it becomes the more

23:07

palatable

23:09

just cool, interesting

23:10

thing

23:11

in the same in the same way that, like, this happens a lot with music or with, TV shows or with, with stuff like that where

23:20

something has its time and then the new thing comes out,

23:23

and it's just has like a little more mainstream appeal.

23:27

And it just becomes

23:29

the default. And the other thing doesn't die. It doesn't go away necessarily.

23:33

But, but I do think that if you fast forward two years or, you know, eighteen to twenty four months,

23:38

I think it's pretty I think my bet would be threads is bigger than Twitter.

23:43

And Twitter basically has now, like, a a ceiling on its head that it's bumping into. It can never really grow from there. It might get better at monetizing those people.

23:52

Or preventing them from switching,

23:54

but

23:55

the dominant place for that will be will be threads, which is insane to me. It seemed impossible, like, to dethrone a social network,

24:03

like, twelve months ago.

24:05

There's this cultural shift with young people where there's so much more kind and nicer

24:10

than our generation at when we were that age.

24:13

And

24:15

you see that in TikTok. So if you go to TikTok and you look at the comments, people are so much more positive

24:20

they're still something different. More positive. That's TikTok is amazing at sorting comments and hiding comments.

24:26

Whatever. Whatever that is. Okay. Maybe maybe they're

24:30

because all you use is kindness and jokes, and then you're like, oh, that's how I'm supposed to behave here. And Twitter never figured that out. It builds the culture whereas on Twitter, I post something, and I get made fun of so much sometimes. And I always click on the accounts, and it's clearly like a bot, or I don't know what it is. There's this huge underground culture. I don't I have no idea how this is happening. A people who all they do is make fun of make fun of people. And I always it it shows it to me. Do you get that when people are are making fun of you all the yeah. Yeah. Because that way, it just shows you everything. Twitter says, hey. It shows you everything. You said something? Here's what they said back. And guess what? There's always gonna be people that either disagree, argue, or just save me and shit to you. That's like, you know, just that's actually the way the world works.

25:13

The best companies have figured out how how to algorithmically,

25:17

like, suppress that behavior.

25:19

Yes. And when the day I opened up threads, it was, like, Gary v saying, like, I hope you all have such a wonderful day. And it was, like, They, like, exceeded it with, like, these positive people, and it, like, created this weird culture where it seems significantly

25:32

more positive so far. Open up threads. I Good morning. Y'all.

25:35

Yeah.

25:36

Ten thousand or like

25:38

I have, like, pumped saying, like, I hope you have a wonderful day and get after it.

25:43

Like, it's just so much, and I have Sahill already popping up on my shit. It's, like, all positivity,

25:48

whereas Twitter, it's way more negative. And honestly, it it does wear me out. And by the way, Zuck has sort of said this in his in his threads where he's like, yeah, that's part of our key strategy. He's, like, he's, like, I always thought there should be a a a a sort of like this town square, conversation, public conversation type product that gets to a billion users.

26:06

Twitter, for some reason, never figured it out. We're gonna do our best. And then people were like, you know, oh, I noticed that this place is, like, you know, more kind or sort of, like, you know, most more positive energy right now. And he goes, yeah, I think that's really important.

26:21

That's what we're gonna, you know, that's something we're gonna really focus on and try to get right. I don't think that Twitter ever got that right. And,

26:28

Some of these features, like setting the culture in that way, are invisible. They're not like

26:33

now you could do live video. Now you could do Twitter spaces. It's not a feature that you see, it's almost what you don't see. That's the feature.

26:41

And, I think that Facebook and Instagram have a lot of experience fighting abuse,

26:46

spam, hateful content, and it's not gonna be no it's not it's gonna be gone. Like, the whatever. That's fine. I I get that. But I think they're gonna do a better job of it. In the same way that, like, you remember

26:56

It used to be a common thing people say, which is like, if you ever wanna see sort of hell on earth, go to the YouTube comments. Like, YouTube comments were considered like an actual cesspool.

27:06

And now if you go to a popular YouTube video,

27:09

the comments are often like they add to the joke, they're funny,

27:13

and they're positive.

27:15

I don't know what they did over time, but over time, they fixed that problem, which was that the YouTube comments were, like, you know, where where, you know, hope goes to die. And now

27:23

It's good. It's part of the experience. I'm sure there's some spam or there's still, obviously, like, the one off thing, but

27:29

it's nowhere near where it was, like, in the early days.

27:32

I went out to dinner last night. I'm, in Williamsburg. I went out to dinner last night, and I, you know, Williamsburg, everything's tight in New York. And I sat next to the sky.

27:42

Who worked at Meta on the threads team.

27:45

And

27:48

I'm not gonna reveal it a lot because I don't wanna write this guy out, but me and Sarah were out to dinner, and, like, I texted her. I was like, just let's just not talk. And we just listened to this guy.

27:57

We just listened to this guy talk two hours about launch week. And, like, what it was like, and he was, like, it was the most exciting time of my career. This guy was so bought in. To, like, the threads movement. He even was talking about how much money he was making. It was crazy, man. I was just at that. What'd you hear? You don't have to say the person, but tell us everything. It was it was seven figures a year. It was seven figures. This guy had I like, I feel like I know all about this guy because I don't know where he's from.

28:22

I or at least I know where he moved from. I heard the very the very typical this is so funny. You hear people say solid time when they first moved to New York, or when they're, like, tech guys, they could say, San Francisco was all about what have you built lately?

28:34

New York. It's all about how much money do you make. You know, you're reminded every time about how important money is. San Francisco is all about what you bill. Like, that's, like, such a problem. You're saying it in a positive way?

28:44

It's all you. There's the guy he was was asking about. He's like, it's refreshing.

28:48

It's refreshing that my pay stub delivers.

28:52

But he was just talking about, like, he was, like, the launch and he was just saying, like, how the morale the company is really high and how everyone was pumped, which is which is something Facebook needed because it was pretty shitty for a long time with all the negative PR.

29:03

Then he was just talking all about, like, the launch and, like, what they were doing, it was so fascinating. It would just sit there I'm shocked that he didn't, like, catch the hit that I was just, like, listening into this whole conversation.

29:14

I just heard everything.

29:15

Hey. Look at this one thing, that Facebook engineers don't have a lot of

29:20

awareness.

29:22

Dude,

29:23

I don't think you noticed that you weren't talking to your wife.

29:26

You ever,

29:27

go out to dinner and, like, if you're with, like, a business associate or, like, a, a successful friend and you talk about money, you're talking about, like, you know, like, I wanna buy this house. It costs as much money or, like, I this is what I'm earning. What do you think I should do with it? Whatever. When we talk about these sensitive topics whenever the waitress or waiter comes over, I always quit talking about that because I'm like, that's embarrassing. It's tacky.

29:46

They didn't get that hit. And so I remember them talking about I remember them, they they said the seven figure thing. It's like, yeah, it's not that big of a deal. You just go get, like, a director or a startup and get you know, a million dollar package. And that's okay, but, like, are you really doing anything meaningful? Right? As the woman was, like, waiting to see if they wanna deserve. Yeah. And I remember seeing that. I was like, oh, I hate that. That is so fucking embarrassing and obnoxious. You gotta shut up at that point. That's when you, you know, you're like,

30:12

you gotta lower your voice. You gotta whisper. A million. You know what I mean? Like, that that's what you're supposed to do in that scenario, but these guys did not catch that hit. I hate that.

30:21

Yeah. Yeah.

30:23

It's a little PC that dies inside every time. You know who sucks at that is whenever I'm with our friends, Suly.

30:29

Sully is horrible at that. Isn't he talk about shit? Yes. He'll talk about, like, you know, about, like, what he's investing in

30:37

so loudly. And I'm like, dude, shut the fuck up. This is embarrassing. Everyone's looking over. You don't don't use that word million, please, and have any more of those conversations. I haven't seen that. But I've I have another friend does it, like, crazy. And then I'll be like, hey, I'm like, kicking him onto the table. And he'll just be like, what? Why are you kicking me? And I'm like, dude.

30:56

I'm being a friend

30:58

that we took to this place,

31:00

in San Francisco that, I guess, has, like, the best hot chocolate. If he likes hot chocolates, and we're like, dude, you're a little baby for liking hot chocolate, first of all. But if you are a baby that likes hot chocolate, you gotta go to this place. That's the best hot chocolate. So we go, sits at the bar, bartender comes up or whatever, like, the the table, whatever. And it's like, hey.

31:17

This guy loves hot chocolate, and we told him this is the best spot. So he had to he had to try it. And he's like The waiter was like, what are you for? Yeah. He's like, Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Let me bring you one. And so he brings one out.

31:28

Guy takes a sip.

31:30

Immediately gives, like, an audible, like,

31:34

And what?

31:35

And then, it doesn't like it. And so I were like, oh, you know, whatever. Okay. Guess it's not, I don't know,

31:41

That's not your your way, your your type. And so he just puts he just he puts it down. Right? So it's sitting in front of him.

31:50

Waiter walks by,

31:52

and he just

31:53

shut like, pushes it forward towards the -- Oh. -- almost

31:56

like he's pushing his chips all in at, like, a poker table.

32:00

And the guy's like, oh, are you are you done? And he's like, you didn't like it? He goes, no. It's not very good.

32:06

Oh my god. That's so embarrassing. To accomplish here. Why are you doing this?

32:11

So I literally just fall off my stool crawl away and die and, you know, they had to deal with this interaction, but it was terrible.

32:18

I had a friend. We went out and got dinner. And afterwards, they gave us coffee and we wanna decaf. And the next day, we text it back and forth. We're like, hey, did you stay up all night last night? And they're like, yeah. It's like, I think they gave us regular coffee. He's like, I gotta call them. I gotta call them and let them know. And he was like, insistent. I he's like, I gotta call them. And so we, like, call them. I'm like, dude, what what's What are you doing? We're we're on vacation, like, we're visiting, like, what that's such a weird it was such a Larry David move to, like, call someone to tell them You made a mistake last night. You gave us a normal coffee instead of decaf.

32:48

And I those types of people are very challenging for me to be able to. David does it. It's like, likable and adorable. And, when anybody else in real life does it, it's just hateable.

32:58

My my mother has a version of that where any time we're complaining about something, her go to is not even, like, tell them and call them. She's like, call the news.

33:06

I'll tell five. They they will investigate this.

33:10

Really not. Dude, I can't stand that. It's really not what's gonna happen here. I've ordered a steak before. They've brought me pesto chicken pizza, and I won't say a word. I'm like, yeah, whatever.

33:19

It's food. I could eat that. I gotta tell you this story. So this is,

33:23

this is I can't decide. I wanted to do a segment called L of the week because I think we sometimes brag a lot on here if we say, you know, how we're so great and all these different ways. I think it'd be nice to share, a big L that we took, but I gotta be honest. This might actually be a W. This might not even be an L because the experience was so incredible. What was it? Alright. So I go, I'm feeling I I'm doing something I'm working, whatever. And I'm feeling hungry while I was driving back from an errand. And I'm like, alright. I'm hungry. I'm just gonna pick up some food real quick. So I go to, Subway.

33:52

You know, get a sandwich.

33:53

And, I go to Subway. I walk in. There's, like, five people in line. There's only one guy working.

33:58

And it's a black guy. There's a white guy checking out. And

34:01

like, thinking about what sandwich I'm gonna get, and I kinda decide.

34:05

I noticed that that guy's still checking out. And I look over and I'm like, what's taking this guy forever? And these guys are talking about, like, it's like, so where drew it's like South Africa?

34:14

He's like, yeah. And they're talking about Africa and talking about race.

34:18

Talking about race relations.

34:20

And they're just talking and, like, zero,

34:23

like,

34:24

I'm happy that there's whatever, no racism on Earth. But I'd really like a sandwich right now. And so were the four people in front of me. How about that meatball marinara?

34:32

Exactly.

34:33

Yeah.

34:34

Red. That's the color of my my meatball that I'd like right now. And so they're just talking. And then they fucking they hug. And I'm like, what's going on right now? And when they hug, I lose it. I leave. I walk out and I'm like, I'm hungrier than ever because I've just killed nine minutes here.

34:51

Exclusively about a sandwich, and I got teased. There's no sandwich coming. Right next to the subway is a Taco Bell, and I make a business decision.

34:59

I say,

35:00

I guess it is what it is. I'm going to Taco Bell today. I haven't been to Taco Bell, like, thirteen years. Going to Taco Bell. So I walk you to Taco Bell, and I'm in line. I'm and you could always I have this theory about places, which is

35:12

you could see your future when you go into a place because it's you're gonna up if you go to a place regularly enough, you're gonna start looking like the people that that are in that place. So sometimes I'll go to a, like, a fitness class and I'll look around and be like, alright. If these people who are, like, the clear regulars here don't look the way I wanna look,

35:27

I'm just gonna leave now because this is this is not a good path. Right? It's like a good good line. Yeah. When you when when you see and Taco Bell, like, a bunch of, like, Tweety Bird shirts?

35:35

So I let go to First, everybody in Taco Bell was under seventeen. So I was like, oh, I get it. Their body can, like, still tolerate this. I'm the only guy in his thirties at this place. So I'm, and there's one guy sitting there. And he's probably, like, twenty eight.

35:47

And he's sitting down, and it's just him. And he's got a feast in front of him. Like, this guy, he he was like, hey, omakase,

35:54

chef's choice. Bring it all out.

35:57

So he's omakase'd at Taco Bell, and he's sitting there. He's eating up a storm, and there's only me, these three teen girls who were in front of me ordering, and then this guy.

36:07

And it's kind of quiet and talk about. And I'm standing in line, and

36:11

this guy pulls a move that I

36:14

I I am I'm still stunned. Just thinking about this. He's sitting there in Taco Bell eating his

36:20

feast.

36:21

And he just rips the loudest fart. And

36:24

we all

36:29

look over

36:31

I'm like, wow. So embarrassing. This guy just farted aloud in public. Wow. And it was almost like he's sitting on one of those benches. It, like, echoed. It was like this crazy auditory experience

36:41

and I look at the guy,

36:43

and he just

36:44

stares back at all of us.

36:46

And he's just raised his eyebrows and was like, "What? We're all here."

36:50

Like, you're also here at three PM on a Tuesday.

36:54

And that is what it is. And I was like, holy shit. This guy did not back down.

37:00

He did not cower in shame. He alpha'd us and was just he literally was like, what?

37:06

And I was like, nothing, I guess. Just carry on.

37:10

You're right. We're all equals here

37:13

at the bottom. Of society.

37:16

You just got Dutch ovened by a Taco Bell guy.

37:19

It was like an L I took and a big W for this guy, and I just

37:23

This is an experience I had to share with you.

37:26

Well, he did that happen.

37:28

This is, like, five days ago.

37:31

There's no one else I could really tell. Like,

37:34

I I started to tell the story to my wife, and she was like, you went to Taco Bell, and I was like, you're missing the point of the story,

37:40

and I didn't even get to the good part. And I just thought, okay. You should have farted back at him. I wish I had one in the chamber. I didn't. I mean, he

37:47

really just, like,

37:49

laid it down right there in front of us. And What did the girl say? Wait. The eye contact

37:53

no one said anything. We all looked to laugh at him. And again, we just got stunned by his bravado.

38:01

It's like, holy shit. This is the biggest power move I've ever experienced. That's the best. Yeah. How was the food at least?

38:13

Horrible? Honestly, the food at Taco Bell is phenomenal.

38:16

Like, the taste of Taco Bell

38:18

is great. It it is a great taste. They got, like,

38:22

The menu I mean, first of all, the innovation. You've been to a Taco Bell, like, you know, Taco Bell used to be tacos. It's not, like,

38:29

it's, like,

38:30

Dude it's just the same shit wrapped differently. That's become a taco. Now it's a taco inside of a burrito. And it's like, how's the taco inside the burrito? And you know, I guess, we call it a a cheesy Gordita crunch, and then they had, like, this thing called the volcano right now. And I was like, I guess just give me the volcano. Because I didn't even know what to do there. I was like, I don't really understand what's happening. I'm still I'm still reeling from what just happened a few minutes ago. And I I got the volcano thing. It was great. It's fantastic.

38:54

You should brought that African guy over to get let him sniff up America,

38:59

let him see what it was. Hey, this is what we're about, bro. Come on. Peace, love, and happiness. That hug shit, that's not real. That's not the usual experience.

39:07

This This is the real This is my world where world war backs back to back champion.

39:12

Because guys like that. Salt of the air.

39:14

They don't make them like that anymore. Can you imagine a European doing that? The impossible.

39:20

No. Possible.

39:23

No.

39:24

It's like a kind person from Singapore?

39:27

Never.

39:28

You'd get arrested for that in Singapore

39:31

Yeah. That's like that's like five to twenty in Singapore. There's not a chance.

39:38

I can't find this client in full. Have you heard of HubSpot?

39:41

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39:46

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39:50

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39:54

So Shaan, I've got a funny story we have Sam Evans today. I'll do a little bit of an intro.

39:59

But about

40:00

three or four years ago, I used to see Sam's ads everywhere. And it was basically him in a bright blue blazer in his fancy apartment overlooking Manhattan.

40:12

And there was a little bit of hate in me, and there was a little bit of,

40:16

You had slick back hair too. I remember. He had slick back hair. Yeah. And for some reason, he pissed me off. And I wrote, like, on one of the ads, like, you're full of shit or something like that. You did a hater comment?

40:29

I did a hater comment,

40:30

and it sat. It'd be for years. And I talked to my friends who eventually bought some of its products, and they're like, oh, no. It's awesome. We loved it. And I started learning more. And I was, like, I think I was wrong. And so I sent Sam this message, I think eighteen or twenty four months ago. And I was, like, I'm sorry. That was for some reason, that one comment, it bothered me. And eventually, I saw Sam

40:51

four weeks ago at a party at Sophia's party And I talked to him, and my wife and I talked to him for, like, an hour. And I was, like,

40:58

you're you're one of the more fascinating people that I've ever spoke to. And I was, like, Did you get that email? Right? Apologize. I said he got it. So that's kinda like how we got here. But Sam, what,

41:08

how do you describe yourself? You had consulting dot com, which was like a big information business. But you have a new thing. You wanna you wanna tell us, how you described yourself,

41:16

Sure.

41:19

While I'm an entrepreneur,

41:22

and

41:24

I have a software company

41:26

called School.

41:28

I'm CEO of that,

41:29

and it's

41:31

It's like a community platform for creators.

41:34

You're you're kind of underselling yourself there,

41:38

Well, what do you want me to say?

41:42

The reason why I like to get out with you is, Sean, he reminds me of Jack Smith so much. Like, it's the same type of, like Yep. But the funny thing is, like,

41:51

Jack,

41:53

you're right. There's, like, definitely, like,

41:56

a, an echo of Jack there. But Jack's

41:59

I almost feel like Jack picked business models that suited his,

42:03

like, personality and his, like, way of thinking.

42:06

Whereas Sam, the funny thing is that when I discovered you, like Sam, I saw

42:12

this sort of, like,

42:14

outgoing persona. It's, like, guy

42:17

who's, like, you know, recording a selfie video of self in his fancy apartment,

42:22

telling me something. It's sort of like, oh, this guy thinks he's some hotshot business guy, whatever.

42:27

And now you talk now. And I'm like, this guy owns a surf shop or something. Why is this guy, like, in the, like, the most Zen?

42:36

Zen mode almost introverted to an extent.

42:42

Isn't that strange? Was that strange for you to have, like, a very public persona, even though you clearly are actually more of a of a of a laid back, maybe more introverted guy?

42:53

Yeah. I think that's why it

42:56

rubbed people the wrong way, like Sam.

43:00

Because

43:01

You know, that's kind of the thing that I didn't like about that business. Like, if you're selling training or coaching or whatever, is you have to be very out there. You have to make content of yourself. You have to

43:15

you have to continuously promote yourself. Right? And I was always very uncomfortable doing that.

43:23

And I guess I

43:24

I used, like, the New York apartment

43:27

and the blue

43:29

suit is like a

43:31

A character.

43:32

Yeah. Like a character or like a crutch?

43:35

To help me. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it worked. You

43:39

built consulting dot com, which was like a

43:42

the way I'll describe it was, like, sort of like training, masterminds,

43:45

courses type of thing where you would teach people how to start their own consulting business. And people would pay you a few thousand dollars, and you you put a bunch of free content, and that would get people sort of in the funnel. And then eventually, they would pay you a couple thousand dollars to learn how to start their own consulting business And, from what I understand, like, you scaled it up to,

44:03

about thirty million a year at one point. That is sort of the peak on on the revenue side.

44:08

Before being like, this is too much and too crazy. And with too many people, two little prophets were pushing, like, you know, the boundaries much. You sort scale to back down,

44:18

to a more manageable level where the revenue went down, but the profits went, you know, up or the same,

44:24

and you had less headache. So it definitely worked Did you get where'd you get the idea for that? Were you just, like, in a basement watching Ty Lopez videos being like, okay. I understand I could do this now or, like, where why did you decide to even do that? You mean, like, sell courses? Cell courses in the way that you sold them, which was just like a really heavy,

44:41

paid ad strategy

44:43

with you as this character or this persona, the face of it. Very internet marketing. Yeah.

44:49

Well,

44:51

I wanted

44:52

to start my own business. I used to have a job This is going back, like, twelve years.

44:58

And I used to watch this

45:01

this interview site called mixergy. Do you guys remember that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We love Andrew.

45:05

Yeah.

45:07

And I watched a an interview one day, and this guy was saying that he was gonna show he had a software company. His name was Dane Maxwell.

45:17

And then he said he was gonna teach some other people how to start a software company.

45:22

And That was my first experience

45:24

of being in a course. He launched a course that was called back then the software roundtable.

45:30

And I learned how to start a software company

45:34

in that and started a software company. It was called Snap Inspect.

45:38

And so I first experienced

45:40

being in a course,

45:42

like, from the student's side.

45:45

And

45:46

through that experience,

45:47

45:48

I had a successful software company,

45:51

and then

45:52

I was like the star student of that

45:55

of that

45:56

software round table foundation thing.

45:59

So then I did an he made me do an interview on mixergy. This is back when I was very young.

46:04

And then a bunch of people started emailing me and saying,

46:08

could I they wanted to pay me so I could help them with their software company.

46:14

And I would just sell like six one hour Skype calls for one thousand dollars.

46:20

And

46:21

Then very quickly I ran out of time to sell.

46:25

Like, I sold so many of these packages.

46:28

And I just noticed that I was repeating myself on these falls like a lot.

46:32

And I was like, oh, this this could be a course. Everyone's like struggling with the same problems.

46:38

And so

46:40

and I've run out of time. Right? So

46:43

the next guy took through this six one hour calls, I recorded the calls,

46:48

and then I put them in a dropbox

46:50

folder.

46:51

And then the people that wanted to buy my coaching, from that point on, I said,

46:56

I don't have any time left, but I've got like a course that you can buy for the same price.

47:02

And I would just sell it for one thousand dollars and give them a login to the drop box,

47:10

and they would watch the recordings in there.

47:12

And they liked it. And they

47:17

they didn't ask for their money back. And, like,

47:21

And that's where it started. And then when I sold more and more of those, I was like, woah, this is

47:27

I should put some more effort into this. So I did. And then I

47:31

and then I wondered, well, how can I sell more of this instead of just waiting for people to come to me?

47:37

From my mixergy interview

47:39

and asked me over email.

47:41

So that's when I started learning about, like, internet marketing.

47:47

And then I remember the people back then were like Frank Kearn,

47:51

and

47:54

Who else? There was, like, Ramit, Safety. There was

47:59

this guy called Clay Collins. Do you remember this era of, like, yeah.

48:03

And so I just kinda got

48:06

I learned how to market from that world, like that kinda underground internet marketing world.

48:13

And that's

48:15

and then my course business started to do so good. It quickly overtook the the profit of my software company.

48:22

And I just wasn't very passionate about

48:24

property management, which was the niche that my software product was for. Was that called Snap inspect?

48:30

Yeah. It still exists. It's snap inspect dot com.

48:34

And

48:35

I just wasn't passionate about the niche.

48:37

48:38

I sold my shares of Snap inspect to my co founder,

48:42

and then just went all in on the course business.

48:46

And that's what eventually became consulting dot com.

48:50

And in the end, I was making courses showing people how to make courses. I just fell in love with the craft of,

48:57

like, finding a group of people

49:01

that you care about

49:03

and

49:04

solving their problems,

49:06

and then sharing the solutions with them and turning that into a business. How did you get the domain consulting dot com? Because that's a great domain.

49:15

It was

49:16

I went to the domain. I went to the URL, and it was there was nothing on it. And then I

49:22

used, like, m x toolbox

49:24

to find out, like, who owned it.

49:27

And

49:28

I just sent him an email? And I said, do you wanna sell it? And he said yes.

49:33

How much did you pay for that one?

49:35

That one was three hundred thousand.

49:37

Just,

49:38

just in the the ten minutes that you've just given that spiel and tell them the background, and then the hour that I've hung out with you,

49:46

you have this trait that I love that certain people have, where in your brain, I could see you're the type of person that you see a challenge And you don't think of it, like a lot of people think of it as, an emotional thing, but it's a very logical and you're like,

50:00

this is a puzzle. I'm gonna figure out this math equation

50:03

and that gives you joy, at least it seems like it.

50:07

With the marketing thing, it seems like the same thing where you're like, well,

50:10

if I wear this jacket, that will pop off in a thumbnail, and that's important for a higher click through rate. And it's like you just read tons of books and you put together, like, an algorithm on what to do. And it's and that's why it it didn't seem entirely authentic that that was who you were, but it seemed like you were just playing a game that you wanted to win. Is that how you went about it? And who did you what interesting people did you learn the the the algorithm from that aren't entirely popular or that are, like, some strange resources?

50:38

I guess,

50:39

you know, there was I just looked at the people who are doing quite well, like,

50:44

brendon Bashaad

50:46

and

50:48

Marie Falleo. This is back then.

50:51

And I knew I noticed that they had like a

50:55

if you thought of their name, you could quickly

50:57

assigned like a couple of attributes to them, they had like a brand, essentially.

51:02

And I was like this kid from New Zealand.

51:05

Teaching people how to start a business.

51:09

And so I was like,

51:10

whatever it is it needs to

51:13

If when people see my video, they instantly need to think of money, basically.

51:20

And my main market is New York. I mean, my main market is America and New York is, like,

51:26

so iconic.

51:27

And it mean it's like the money place. Right? So

51:32

that was why I went to New York and why I found an apartment with a view like that. I heard a rumor that that apartment is almost, like, exactly the same apartment as something from it was at a Wolf of Wall Street or one of those, like, iconic money movies where they, hang a guy over the the balcony. I heard that that you wanted that apartment for that reason. Is that true?

51:52

It isn't true.

51:54

I wanted the apartment because it had a really cool view,

51:58

but then we were watching that movie

52:00

and we had to pause it and be like wait a second. Is that this building And we realized it's not the same building, but it must be one of the five in that area that are all very close to each other. Got it.

52:13

And so you,

52:15

you start doing this now. I'm curious. A lot of the names you mentioned,

52:19

I never hear about those people anymore.

52:22

You know, I've I remember Frank Kearns. I remember,

52:25

even Pagan that some of these guys that, you know, you could kinda go study their their content, their funnels.

52:31

But they're not around anymore or if they are, like, I don't know where they are. They're not they don't seem to be, like,

52:36

crushing it anymore like they used to.

52:40

Am I wrong? Are they just out there crushing? And I just don't see him for some reason? Or why do you think that they very few kind of sustained, or did they just get so rich they quit, or are they, like, locked into one mode and they didn't evolve with the times? What do you think happened? I think things have changed a lot, and a lot of people didn't adapt.

53:00

But also, I think some people just got

53:03

Like,

53:04

they're just not going as hard or they might have got burned out and they're just relaxing a little bit.

53:10

It's probably a combination of all of those things. How how big were some of those old school marketers? Well, they're they're old school to me? How big were some of their businesses?

53:18

You never know, like,

53:20

That's that's why it's always so interesting. I I I I have no idea because they never talked about that. They they seems to they weren't real businesses in a way because they would make it

53:31

a ton of money on a launch.

53:33

Right?

53:34

But then that product would kind of go away, and then they might do another launch in six months.

53:40

And

53:41

it was all based on this launch model, and these launches would pull big numbers.

53:46

Like millions of dollars.

53:48

But

53:49

and I'm sure there was a lot of profit in there too, but they weren't like

53:53

these products that were evergreen that could be sold continuously, and they didn't have a team, and they weren't like

54:00

contributing

54:01

to this body of work. They weren't building on top of what they built yesterday, essentially.

54:06

You had this interesting video where

54:10

Yeah. There we we were talking about Jack. Jack's one of my best buddies, and he was on the last episode, and you guys are very similar. But on this video, you opened it up and you just looked at the camera and you go, I'm back.

54:20

And, apparently, like, the story of the video was consulting dot com consulting got got to, like, thirty million in revenue and you had hired dozens of people at fancy offices. You hated it.

54:31

You basically scale it down. I think you called it a band. I think it was, like, five or six people. You're, like, we're gonna do ten million in revenue, five million in profit. Everyone gets a share of the profit.

54:40

What,

54:41

what was, like, the peak of the consulting business

54:45

And then where was it when you sold it?

54:47

Sure. So the peak was

54:50

it must have been around, like, two thousand

54:52

and

54:54

seventeen or two thousand eighteen.

54:56

And

54:57

it was doing thirty six million a year in revenue.

55:02

But profit wise, it was probably only, like, five million on that.

55:06

Most of it was

55:08

was,

55:09

expenses.

55:10

And we had about fifty people,

55:12

and we were spending like two million a month on ads.

55:18

And it was just everything was breaking. I hired everyone way too fast.

55:24

And

55:26

It was heavily dependent on ads,

55:29

which I didn't like. I was reading this book on my honeymoon in, Tulum.

55:35

In Mexico.

55:36

And

55:38

it's it's called,

55:40

lean thinking.

55:41

And apparently, it's like Jeff Bezos's favorite book. Just while I was reading it.

55:46

And

55:47

in there, they talk about

55:49

55:51

how you should optimize a business

55:55

based on customer

55:57

based on value, the way a customer experiences it. Right? And you should analyze, like, the head count. How many people are, like, working on

56:06

how many people are actually contributing to value the customer experience in your head count? And then your your money flows. So, like, how are you allocating the capital? Where is all the money being spent and does the customer experience value from that? And then your time and attention and energy. Right? So you're just analyzing all of these flows.

56:25

And I realized that

56:28

All of our time, money, attention, and headcount was on ads.

56:34

And

56:35

that customers did not

56:37

Think ads were valuable. In fact, they thought what you did. It actually pissed them off. Right?

56:43

So I was like, oh, man, I've really screwed this one up.

56:50

And I was like, everything should be focused on the customer. And so I went back

56:56

after that vacation and

56:59

realized that I basically had to

57:02

start again.

57:03

And I so I just started

57:06

restructuring

57:07

that company.

57:10

I realized that Organic content was really good because that's cuss customers find that valuable. Right? Like a good YouTube channel,

57:18

good email newsletter,

57:21

So I was like, we should do that. And then if we do that, well, we don't need to do ads. And then I was like, everyone on the team should be

57:28

contributing value to, like, the customer. They should be doing support or they should be account management for mastermind clients,

57:37

They should be customer facing in some way.

57:40

And all of my time and attention and energy should be thinking about the customer's problems instead of Advertising problems. Right?

57:48

And so I just with that kind of mental model, I just started restructuring the whole company.

57:54

And then so, like, you you've talked about consulting,

57:57

a a bunch on other pods. And but the story is that you eventually and we can go back to it. You eventually sold it, but

58:03

your new company's school, it's, whenever I was texting to you, it always,

58:08

autocorrects' stool, s k o o l, you were telling me you didn't exactly say it this way, but I I read it this way. What you were telling me

58:16

that you you're like, we're not taking any funding or at least you're not anytime soon.

58:21

Because you self funded it with ten million.

58:24

And you're, like, I'm hiring

58:26

the best people. So you, like, went from, like, this, like, internet marketing type of culture

58:31

to start up. It it it first of all, is that true and second, was that number right? Ten millions that you're going in on this? That's true. And

58:41

and

58:42

why the shift from, like, the startup where you, like, have higher and all the like, you're you're running things very silicon Valley esque versus

58:49

what I imagine in my head, a lot of,

58:54

internet marketers are not like While I started in software, remember, the first company I ever did was Snap inspect, so I've always had a love for software.

59:03

The problem back then though was

59:06

I didn't love my market,

59:08

like property managers,

59:10

and I

59:13

We were constantly

59:14

have limited by our money. Like,

59:17

you know, software engineers are expensive. Subscription revenue has a cash flow trough in it.

59:24

And so we were limited by money and I didn't love my market, but I did love software.

59:29

And I also hated, like,

59:31

Having to market, I swore I was never gonna touch software again unless it had network effects

59:37

because I wanted it to grow it self, basically, like a platform instead of a software tool.

59:43

So then I fell in love with courses and that the beauty of that was, like, I was able to save a lot of money.

59:51

And then I came back to software because

59:54

I now was building software for the market that I loved, which was like online creators.

01:00:00

And

01:00:01

I had money this time, so it wouldn't be limited by that, I could get the best engineers

01:00:06

and not cut corners on anything and take a more long term view.

01:00:12

And this was a platform opportunity instead of like a software tool.

01:00:17

So we didn't have to have a marketing or sales team.

01:00:22

And we had no, like, cack.

01:00:26

And how is this growing? Because I see the traffic is, like, I don't know, eight million visits a month or something insane like that.

01:00:34

Looks like you had an affiliate program here. If you're not running marketing,

01:00:38

where's the growth coming from? Because I get that there's network effects,

01:00:42

but, That's way more than, like, circle dot is it called circle? That's way more than a lot of, like, high VC competitors, the traffic, I believe. Yeah. So I don't know if the number's right, but let let's let's say it's more than double circle. Yeah.

01:00:53

How are you getting so much traffic?

01:00:55

It's a community platform. So, you know,

01:00:59

once you

01:01:01

once you start a community and you add some content the first thing you do is you invite members. Right?

01:01:07

And then what happens is roughly one percent of members

01:01:12

create their own community.

01:01:14

So they're like, oh, this platform's cool. I wanna make one of these. And then they create their own, and then they invite their members, and then that there's a there's a loop there or a network effect. When you were doing your content stuff,

01:01:28

your ads, I had read stuff like

01:01:30

you,

01:01:32

did some interesting things like you. We talked about, like, the apartment and the suit and, I don't know, get, like, a motorcycle in the middle of the room and stuff like that. What were some interesting experiments that you ran

01:01:41

that,

01:01:42

that neither worked or didn't work that sort of taught you something about you know, human psychology or the way that people's

01:01:49

what gets people's attention, what people what gets people interested, what gets them hooked, are some learnings from all of those different kind of content experiments you did when you were doing,

01:01:57

when you're making, you know, when when your your content, your face was the was the driver?

01:02:02

Well, a lot of people just wanna make money. Like, that one was annoying.

01:02:07

So if you just put a jet in something,

01:02:10

or a fancy car or a New York apartment.

01:02:14

Like, it works so well that it's

01:02:17

it's annoying because you're like, oh, do I have to do that shit.

01:02:21

People just won't they just listen to the value of the idea?

01:02:25

But that's what I learned back then when I was doing those experiments.

01:02:28

I think now people are looking for, like, longer form real stuff.

01:02:33

That

01:02:35

like a podcast, podcasts are really taking off. Right?

01:02:40

So I think the people that are doing a good job now is like,

01:02:44

what you guys are doing. I think having a podcast in an email newsletter, that's what I would do if I was starting again right now.

01:02:52

That those two work really well together? We have this friend, Rebecca Zamala, who,

01:02:57

has tens of millions or maybe fifteen or something million YouTube subscribers

01:03:03

And she only launched it in, like, two thousand seventeen, not that long ago. And I was like, Rebecca, why'd you get so big? And she goes, I took it like a job. So, like, I got laid off or I quit. I forget what happened with her other job. And she goes, this is now my thing. So it was like a forty hour away quick. It's like, this is all I'm doing. And I was like, well, doesn't everyone do that? She said, no, shockingly. No. Most of of a lot of popular YouTubers. It starts with a side hop hobby. And even when they're, like, fairly big, it's still not full time. She's like, I just treated some bitch like a company. Like, I just ran out like a company, and it and it worked out. So I think that, like, that focus thing No. No. No chance you said some bitch.

01:03:37

No no chance she said some bitch. I I added a that's the same part special. Maybe maybe I subbed that out. Maybe it was

01:03:45

like,

01:03:46

you know, I took this wonderful thing very seriously.

01:03:51

Yeah. Yeah. You've been you've been pretty good with focus. I mean, that's why even sell consulting dot com if it's, like, doing well and you're not working on it? I mean, you're you're a ball you seem like you're you're very, very, very focused on shit. I mean, just to go ten million on that on school,

01:04:05

is that a was that a significant chunk for you to do that? And was that, like, a verbal commitment? Like, I'm willing to do up to x, or did you literally wire into a bank account so that's now in the company. That's being used for this company. It's work we're burning that.

01:04:18

That

01:04:19

yeah. That, like, I bought

01:04:22

a house because, you know, I've got a wife and family. So

01:04:26

I bought a house, and I left some money in the personal account for, like, family. And then I was like, everything else, I'm just I'm betting on this company.

01:04:34

So no no other portfolio?

01:04:37

Nothing. How big do you think school's gonna be?

01:04:40

Well, that's hard to answer. There's what I would like it to be. Which is what?

01:04:45

I've

01:04:46

always wanted to Build something that a billion people use. What do you how are you sleeping at night knowing that your whole or a lot of your nut is in there?

01:04:55

That's a very stressful thing.

01:04:57

Quite well at the moment, but because things are going really well,

01:05:03

You know what, the growth is compounding pretty fast and

01:05:07

top tier VCs email us every week.

01:05:11

So I'd like and they I've had to just stop talking to them.

01:05:17

And a lot of people wanna give us money, but we're not taking it.

01:05:22

And so I think the fact that a lot of people wanna give me money is

01:05:26

it allowed me to calm down quite a lot. That I'm not that we're not gonna run out of money.

01:05:32

Also, just the grow

01:05:34

Is it profitable?

01:05:36

No. It's not.

01:05:38

But deliberately so. Okay. Fair enough. And,

01:05:42

where'd you base the company?

01:05:43

Is it remote or people in

01:05:46

in America and New Zealand, where where are you where are your people?

01:05:49

Everyone's in LA and San Fran.

01:05:52

Okay. And do you,

01:05:54

You like, what we've when Sam says he run you remind him of Jack Smith, one of the cool things about Jack Smith is that while he's clever and interesting on the business side,

01:06:03

He's also clever and weird and does crazy experiments also in his personal life, whether it's, like, sort of biohacking or

01:06:11

lifestyle choice or not naming his child until she was one years old, like, whatever, parent parenting, everything.

01:06:18

He he takes sort of like a novel approach to each thing. I'm curious.

01:06:22

Are you weird in other areas of your life? Do you do anything that sort of nonstandard that do you make sense when we reach other people sounds a little strange?

01:06:29

I'm sure.

01:06:30

Would you like to say any examples since this is a podcast?

01:06:37

I mean, I slept on a futon for, like, three years, and I loved it. And then when my wife got pregnant, she She made me give it up, but

01:06:46

I really miss that futon. You know a Japanese futon?

01:06:49

Yeah.

01:06:51

I love that thing.

01:06:53

I just like to keep things very simple and minimal.

01:06:56

Like, only have one pair of shoes,

01:06:59

And I only have, like, the same type of socks

01:07:03

and the same

01:07:04

kind of, like, underwear and the same t shirts and then, like, three wall jumpers.

01:07:09

And that's all I have.

01:07:11

And then I have the same soap, like this tea tree soap,

01:07:16

and I just have, like, twenty blocks of it. And I I even take one with me when I travel because I only will like that. So

01:07:24

I, like, don't wear sunglasses because I think they're unnecessary.

01:07:30

And I just like to reduce things just to I like to find something that I think is good,

01:07:37

and then only use that.

01:07:40

And then just get a few different pairs of that.

01:07:43

And just keep things as simple and as minimal as humanly possible.

01:07:47

Does your wife normal?

01:07:50

Yes, she is.

01:07:55

We were

01:07:57

the reason why one of the things you said

01:08:00

We were sitting around Sean. It was me, Sam and my wife, Sarah. We were sitting around at this restaurant.

01:08:06

And, Sam, you have

01:08:09

You've got some strange en energy

01:08:11

in a very cool way. You've got very strange and cool energy that I like. I love people like you. And we were just sitting around,

01:08:19

and the conversation kinda died. And we were just sit we sat in silence for, like, three seconds, I think.

01:08:25

And then

01:08:26

you just said,

01:08:27

I delivered my baby, and we were like,

01:08:31

we were like,

01:08:33

What? With what? And you could say,

01:08:35

my hands.

01:08:38

If we were

01:08:39

we're like, hold on.

01:08:41

Say this again.

01:08:42

And you're talking about how your wife

01:08:45

she you're gonna be like a home delivery or something and the midwife didn't make it time, and and you just did the damn thing. You and you just did it. And I remember thinking, like,

01:08:56

the reason I love this guy,

01:08:58

is I don't think he understands,

01:09:02

like, how

01:09:03

like, your mannerisms,

01:09:05

your voice, their this is they're so unique and strange in such an interesting way,

01:09:12

which I frankly love. I love people like you because you're so unique and you're not vanilla.

01:09:17

Do you realize that you're like that?

01:09:20

Honestly, not really.

01:09:22

Because I don't

01:09:23

I don't try to fit in, and I don't try to, like

01:09:27

I don't even look at what other people are doing. Like, I don't have social media at all.

01:09:33

And I never look at really what's going on or what's in the news or anything.

01:09:39

And I just do what I want. So what do you do with that free time? Let's say, no social media, no news. For most people, that's, like, four to five hours a day or something like that.

01:09:49

How do you reinvest that four to five hours a day? Where do you put it? What what does give you energy or or what do you do for entertainment or what do you do to to unwind?

01:09:58

I mean, all I really do is

01:10:01

focus on school, and that's mostly the product. So I'm just obsessive about the product, all the details of it. And then

01:10:10

I go home,

01:10:11

hang out with my wife

01:10:13

and daughter,

01:10:14

and then I need two hours

01:10:16

of, like, watching something to to unwind. Otherwise, I can't sleep.

01:10:21

And so I'll

01:10:23

I'll watch series

01:10:25

like TV series, and I like old stuff, like things before technology

01:10:30

because it's

01:10:32

It's nice and slow and it helps me go to sleep. But when you say you're obsessive, what does that mean? Like, do people like working with you? Like, are are you the type of guy who

01:10:41

Like, if something very small at the footer is screwed up, you freak out over that? You know, I can see a pixel.

01:10:48

So if something's off, like, something's off over there, and then I'll inspect it with Chrome inspector, and it will be one pixel.

01:10:55

So I can, like, I've I joke with the team that I can see a pixel.

01:11:02

And, yeah, I'll I'll go into those details. Like, I designed

01:11:07

schools interface and Figma like the whole thing,

01:11:11

and

01:11:12

to find

01:11:13

a lot of like how that entire system works, which is it's quite complex. Well, I knew you were like that because when consulting dot com first came out,

01:11:23

Most courses don't didn't look the way yours looked. Yours had this, like you had this really cool thing of a

01:11:30

it was like a caveman becoming a a person.

01:11:33

Right? Is that what it was? And then it was like a picture of the globe, and it,

01:11:37

it looked like a software page. It it looked very unique. And I remember seeing the design of it And I thought that is incredibly unique, and it stood out. It made you feel more sophisticated than most other people in the space.

01:11:50

You remember that page? Am I describing it? I do. Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:53

What, what were you thinking when you made that? Well, that's what I like to do. I like to just spend

01:11:58

a long time on the tiny details.

01:12:02

Like,

01:12:04

you know, I've spent days trying to figure out the right

01:12:08

pixel radius of a rounded corner for the for like a button.

01:12:12

Is that a feature or a bug? Like, if somebody I worked with was spending days on a,

01:12:19

how much the border radius should be on a button,

01:12:22

I would slap them. I'd be like, what are you doing? This is not this doesn't matter. And it's not gonna be, like, high impact.

01:12:29

So why are you doing this? So, you know, is that a

01:12:33

is it a good thing or is that a byproduct Like, maybe you do that in certain areas where it really works, then us,

01:12:39

I gotta live with the fact that I do it in these other areas where it doesn't matter at all.

01:12:43

Yeah. So I

01:12:45

You know, if if it's not, I won't block anyone

01:12:49

by doing that. Right? It's like when we're building the thing, like I'll be very fast and not the bottleneck of the team.

01:12:55

But then in my spare time, I'm playing with things

01:12:59

thinking about the next time we update the design system,

01:13:02

And I'm just tweaking little things and my that's what I do for fun. So it's not like what I'm doing is my work.

01:13:10

How do you how do you organize your day? Do you have, like,

01:13:13

are you, like, focused on one thing? Do you have, like, a morning, like, okay. This is my to do list. What what it how do you how do you create your day?

01:13:21

Most of what I do, I would say it's product, strategy, and design. That's like where I spend all of my time just in those zones.

01:13:28

And we have got, like, three product teams at school. So three full stack product teams with back end, front end, QA product manager designer. Right?

01:13:39

And they've got three road maps that are all going in parallel.

01:13:44

And I need to think ahead of them. Like, I've gotta dream up, like,

01:13:49

The whole product, strategy, and road map, and everything.

01:13:53

And then I have to reverse engineer it into chunks.

01:13:57

Break it down and then figure out which team should work on what thing and sequence it. And then I've got to design the whole thing, spec it,

01:14:06

brief that team and stay a few development cycles ahead. And so I'll either be designing something

01:14:15

to figure out a priority,

01:14:17

talking to that engineering team,

01:14:20

or checkings doing the final QA check, before we push something into production? I actually think that that that's totally the right way in my opinion that a lot of companies should run. The reason they don't is because, a, that's really, really hard. So, like, you're the brain child. You have to, like, you probably know every single thing that's happening. That's

01:14:39

incredibly challenging for just about everyone.

01:14:42

Number two, it doesn't feel good to feel

01:14:45

like a dictator. It's, like, basically, you're you you guys are a band and you're, like, the main you're, you know, you're the main, you're the main guy. You're Celine Dion, and everyone else is the backup a weird reference, but it is what it is. You're Billy Joel. I don't you're like, that's where I went.

01:14:59

Yeah.

01:15:00

That's that's where we went. You're sleepy. I don't know long hair.

01:15:05

You're, like, the guy. Whereas

01:15:08

whereas, I don't know if I can recover from that. Whereas most, startups, it's, like, it's it's it's a lot more decentralized

01:15:13

and things like that. But with this type of product, it seems like you're, like, the the the main person and there's a circle around you with shit going on. Is that right? Sounds fucking exhausting. Funny example of this was I remember Sam when you were running the hustle,

01:15:26

and I was running my company. We would meet up every couple weeks as part of our, like, analytics founder mastermind thing where we would get together. And,

01:15:34

you know, I was just sort of drinking the Silicon Valley Kool Aid, which was, like, autonomy.

01:15:38

And, like, give people empower your people and all these things. And I was like, you know, preach it to my team, like, hey,

01:15:45

whoever's got the best idea, We're going with you. You know? Oh, janitor, you got an idea. Let's do it. You know, like, let's make it happen. And Sam showed me, I've meet up with Sam, and Sam shows me, like, a twelve page doc that he wrote out

01:15:59

for some new woman that he hired.

01:16:01

And he just go and the document says,

01:16:05

welcome. Here's the things that you're going to do.

01:16:09

Your job is to do this. Here's how you will do this. Step one. Do this. Step two. Do this. And he wrote this, like, twenty days doc. And was just, like, handed it to her. And was, like, this is

01:16:22

do not deviate from this.

01:16:24

I don't wanna hear I don't wanna hear your your ideas of this. And I asked you, I was like, Why did you do this? You're like, because people fuck up. And I just

01:16:32

I need her I think this is the right way to do it, and I just need her to do it this way.

01:16:37

No. Because that I whatever Sam has said, I totally agree with that. The problem is that it's fucking exhausting.

01:16:44

You know what I mean? Like, it's really hard to do that for a long period of time. It's not scalable. Yeah. Well, it's kind of scalable. Oh, yeah. Like, the engineers, I'm not telling them what to do, like, in terms of code. Right?

01:16:55

So and then I'm not even coming up with all the ideas from my own mind. I spend a lot of my time looking at what our community wants. So, like,

01:17:03

going through our school community where people ask for stuff and share bugs and feedback,

01:17:10

Then I'll talk to power users. I always find who's spending the most time on the platform, get a top one hundred, just DM a few of them, get on Zoom talk.

01:17:19

Just talk to them for hours about it, and then I use the product myself.

01:17:24

And then I talk to the team too. And so ideas come from all of these places, but I'm like the filter in the

01:17:31

the sorter and the prioritizer,

01:17:33

basically.

01:17:35

And then when I go to engineering,

01:17:37

I know what the feature should be, but they

01:17:41

they might push back on a lot of what I say based on how easy that is to implement with code. They might be like, oh, do you really need to do it this way? Cause that's gonna make the code messy? Or

01:17:51

why don't you do it this way? That would be way more simple for this them. And I'll listen to that feedback and adjust the actual feature because I'm trying to like I'm trying to give the the users what they want, but I'm also trying to keep the code clean.

01:18:07

And

01:18:08

and I'm trying to build things fast too. So I'm like, how could we shrink the scope of this to make it so we could deliver something faster. And

01:18:16

and so it's not like I'm just dictating to everyone.

01:18:20

There's a lot of collaboration.

01:18:23

You know, Sean? It's something I've I've

01:18:26

do you know that company Jasper? Yeah. Have you talked to those guys? Is the founder's name is Dave or David? I see them on the website of consulting dot com.

01:18:35

Dude, well, as I was gonna say, for one, if you go to, like, unsplash, I think it was called or one of those, like, stock websites,

01:18:42

stock image websites. For some reason, Dave is on the picture of so many stock pictures.

01:18:48

I use to use a picture of him. And then I met him, I'm like, dude, I use your face for a stock image. You're on this, like, royalty free website. And number two, he used to be part of consulting dot com. Didn't he? So jasper's for the listeners, like, a, I guess, a billion dollar now company that does AI stuff.

01:19:04

Was he part of your crew?

01:19:07

He was a he bought my course, like, many years ago.

01:19:12

And he was one of our, like, most successful

01:19:14

students.

01:19:17

He used to sell coaching,

01:19:19

like, training and stuff, but then he he wanted to get into software. So then he did this thing proof. Do you remember that? That little pop up Yeah. And then

01:19:27

that turned into Jasper. And did I why did someone someone told me to ask you what you think about AI? Why did they say that?

01:19:36

Well,

01:19:37

I think it's, like, massively overhyped.

01:19:40

And

01:19:43

somewhat,

01:19:44

like, just unnecessary.

01:19:47

Like, I don't know about you guys, but chat g p t hasn't replaced my Google usage,

01:19:51

I still use Google every day.

01:19:55

And I've found no real task for it, honestly.

01:20:00

It's sync, but the hype is extreme.

01:20:02

Well, the hype cycle is there around, like, the growth. And like, well, it's It's not there yet, but I could see the future of this. So you're not bullish at all in the future of it?

01:20:10

No.

01:20:12

Alright.

01:20:13

I'll take the other side of that.

01:20:16

Sam, anything else you wanna ask before we we wrap up? No. I I appreciate you coming. I I wanna talk to you again another time. I find you fascinating. I think that you're an original thinker, and I appreciate people like you.

01:20:28

Thanks.

01:20:30

Alright. Well, that's that's the pod. That's it.

00:00 01:20:55