00:00

Alright, my friends. Today's episode,

Alright, my friends. Today's episode,

00:02

it's special for me, and it's gonna be special for anyone out there who's a creator or who owns a media company. Let me explain. So I've got this friend named Craig Fuller. Craig Fuller runs this company called FreightWaves. It's a data business, but they have a media arm it's a huge company. They've raised tens of millions in, funding, and they make tens of millions in recurring revenue, huge business. However,

it's special for me, and it's gonna be special for anyone out there who's a creator or who owns a media company. Let me explain. So I've got this friend named Craig Fuller. Craig Fuller runs this company called FreightWaves. It's a data business, but they have a media arm it's a huge company. They've raised tens of millions in, funding, and they make tens of millions in recurring revenue, huge business. However,

00:23

On the side, he ended up buying a bunch of magazines, including flying magazines, a bunch of boating magazines,

On the side, he ended up buying a bunch of magazines, including flying magazines, a bunch of boating magazines,

00:30

very weird of him to do that. And I wanted to do a podcast about that. Turns out he's bought all of these niche magazines for a very small amount of money. And he's only about three years into business, and the company is doing around sixty million in revenue and twelve million in profit. And it's his prediction that by two thousand thirty, it's gonna do a billion in revenue.

very weird of him to do that. And I wanted to do a podcast about that. Turns out he's bought all of these niche magazines for a very small amount of money. And he's only about three years into business, and the company is doing around sixty million in revenue and twelve million in profit. And it's his prediction that by two thousand thirty, it's gonna do a billion in revenue.

00:50

Which is a insane that that's someone's side project that they're doing that. And, b, I wanted to learn all about it. I wanted to learn about the model that he's doing where basically buying these magazines and then he's selling the audience different products products and services, including, like, building an airplane hangar and selling space in that hanger for Flying magazine, things like that. So if you have an audience, if you wanna build an audience, if you wanna build a big business on top of that audience, This podcast is for you. Alright. Check it out.

Which is a insane that that's someone's side project that they're doing that. And, b, I wanted to learn all about it. I wanted to learn about the model that he's doing where basically buying these magazines and then he's selling the audience different products products and services, including, like, building an airplane hangar and selling space in that hanger for Flying magazine, things like that. So if you have an audience, if you wanna build an audience, if you wanna build a big business on top of that audience, This podcast is for you. Alright. Check it out.

01:28

Well, we're live. This is just how we we just get right into it. Why the It's not often that someone's side hobby becomes almost cooler than their main thing, particularly given that your main thing is this, like, massive hit. So you're Craig Fuller. You've got this thing called FreightWaves, which is a data business, but you guys also have a popular media arm. And you just you display most of your financials online as if you're a publicly traded company almost. And I don't know what the revenue is, but it's somewhere in the high tens of millions,

Well, we're live. This is just how we we just get right into it. Why the It's not often that someone's side hobby becomes almost cooler than their main thing, particularly given that your main thing is this, like, massive hit. So you're Craig Fuller. You've got this thing called FreightWaves, which is a data business, but you guys also have a popular media arm. And you just you display most of your financials online as if you're a publicly traded company almost. And I don't know what the revenue is, but it's somewhere in the high tens of millions,

01:57

in recurring revenue. And then you also have, you've raised, what, ninety million dollars for that? Sixty five in Venture Capital, but we raised some debt on top of it. So total about a little bit under eighty million or a little bit over eighty million. And then your your latest kind of side project that is not

in recurring revenue. And then you also have, you've raised, what, ninety million dollars for that? Sixty five in Venture Capital, but we raised some debt on top of it. So total about a little bit under eighty million or a little bit over eighty million. And then your your latest kind of side project that is not

02:14

Really, the size of most people's side projects is Firecrown Media where you've bought dozens of magazines, and you've parlayed that into, like, you've turned flying magazine into, like,

Really, the size of most people's side projects is Firecrown Media where you've bought dozens of magazines, and you've parlayed that into, like, you've turned flying magazine into, like,

02:24

a country club, but for flying enthusiasts. And so you've, like, bought, you know, thousands of acres of land. You've built,

a country club, but for flying enthusiasts. And so you've, like, bought, you know, thousands of acres of land. You've built,

02:31

an airport, and now you've you're buying even more pieces of property, more stuff.

an airport, and now you've you're buying even more pieces of property, more stuff.

02:36

And I think what as Firecrown does, what, fifty million this year in revenue? That's sixty million. Right? So,

And I think what as Firecrown does, what, fifty million this year in revenue? That's sixty million. Right? So,

02:41

is where we'll we'll finish this year. So golly, man. And what I didn't realize I was doing research, I didn't realize that trucking kinda runs through your family. Right? Yeah. My father started what's now or he sold the business last year, but it came to fifth largest tracking company in the US. And then my uncle started the eighth largest what's now healthy a floor just tripping up in US. Were your uncle and father competitors?

is where we'll we'll finish this year. So golly, man. And what I didn't realize I was doing research, I didn't realize that trucking kinda runs through your family. Right? Yeah. My father started what's now or he sold the business last year, but it came to fifth largest tracking company in the US. And then my uncle started the eighth largest what's now healthy a floor just tripping up in US. Were your uncle and father competitors?

03:03

Oh, yeah. Yeah. The pretty pretty dire competitors. But are they tight? Are they are they good family members? Nowadays, they're much better. You know, they're they do get along now, but there was a period of time where they just absolutely hated each other.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. The pretty pretty dire competitors. But are they tight? Are they are they good family members? Nowadays, they're much better. You know, they're they do get along now, but there was a period of time where they just absolutely hated each other.

03:16

My family is in the pro my father's a produce broker. So I grew up with truckers, and it's an interesting industry because the people who own the business can be pretty wealthy, but they're still rednecks. Like, they're still, like, blue they're, like, blue collar guys, but they're not necessarily always traditionally educated, and they're still rough even if they're quite wealthy. Was your dad,

My family is in the pro my father's a produce broker. So I grew up with truckers, and it's an interesting industry because the people who own the business can be pretty wealthy, but they're still rednecks. Like, they're still, like, blue they're, like, blue collar guys, but they're not necessarily always traditionally educated, and they're still rough even if they're quite wealthy. Was your dad,

03:37

like,

like,

03:38

like, a blue collar guy, even though that he ran this huge company? Yeah. I mean, he's a blue collar guy. I mean, he he, you know, he looked presentable in a suit, and he's talking to Wall Street investors.

like, a blue collar guy, even though that he ran this huge company? Yeah. I mean, he's a blue collar guy. I mean, he he, you know, he looked presentable in a suit, and he's talking to Wall Street investors.

03:48

I mean, he certainly is You know, he's presentable. He's not going to embarrass himself in front of folks. But he he is, you know, he's he's a finance guy. I mean, ultimately in trucking, you're operating a business that operates with single digit margins, you know, one to three percent margins. And so,

I mean, he certainly is You know, he's presentable. He's not going to embarrass himself in front of folks. But he he is, you know, he's he's a finance guy. I mean, ultimately in trucking, you're operating a business that operates with single digit margins, you know, one to three percent margins. And so,

04:04

you've gotta know how to operate that business. It's an owner operator type business. And so he certainly is an operator.

you've gotta know how to operate that business. It's an owner operator type business. And so he certainly is an operator.

04:11

And he eventually I think recently sold that business for, like, eight hundred billion dollars. Right? Yeah. He merged it into Nightswift

And he eventually I think recently sold that business for, like, eight hundred billion dollars. Right? Yeah. He merged it into Nightswift

04:17

which is the largest. It was the second largest trucking merger in history.

which is the largest. It was the second largest trucking merger in history.

04:21

The company did about two and a half billion dollars when it's sold for eight hundred million.

The company did about two and a half billion dollars when it's sold for eight hundred million.

04:25

And you were working for him, and I read that you worked for him starting at a young age. You kicked ass, but for some reason you butted heads with the executive team, you got fired, I think, in your late twenties or early thirties.

And you were working for him, and I read that you worked for him starting at a young age. You kicked ass, but for some reason you butted heads with the executive team, you got fired, I think, in your late twenties or early thirties.

04:36

And you started

And you started

04:39

shockingly, which I can't believe you did this day trading, and you are like, I gotta build something. And so at thirty six, I think, or thirty four, you are like, I wanna do

shockingly, which I can't believe you did this day trading, and you are like, I gotta build something. And so at thirty six, I think, or thirty four, you are like, I wanna do

04:49

almost like day trading, but for freight stuff. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, I got fired twice. So I got fired from my father's trucking company at US Express in two thousand and five. It was actually my older brother who became the CEO,

almost like day trading, but for freight stuff. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, I got fired twice. So I got fired from my father's trucking company at US Express in two thousand and five. It was actually my older brother who became the CEO,

05:02

of US Express that had had be fired

of US Express that had had be fired

05:05

in two thousand five. And then my family's a bunch of assholes, man. Pretty much. True. But,

in two thousand five. And then my family's a bunch of assholes, man. Pretty much. True. But,

05:10

we I love them, but they're this is this is the family tradition. You buyer and you go out and start your own business. And then, they had a payments company, a fuel card company that they had incubated, that I took over and,

we I love them, but they're this is this is the family tradition. You buyer and you go out and start your own business. And then, they had a payments company, a fuel card company that they had incubated, that I took over and,

05:21

scale it up. And then we sell part of that US bank,

scale it up. And then we sell part of that US bank,

05:24

And we were doing both fleet card processing

And we were doing both fleet card processing

05:27

and debit card processing payment processing for banks. What what's a what's a fuel card? I I know that truckers have them, but I don't entirely know what they do or how they make money. When truckers wanna buy fuel, you figure two hundred gallons if they're truly topping off their tank,

and debit card processing payment processing for banks. What what's a what's a fuel card? I I know that truckers have them, but I don't entirely know what they do or how they make money. When truckers wanna buy fuel, you figure two hundred gallons if they're truly topping off their tank,

05:42

is get they're gonna fill up with, you know, a thousand to your twelve hundred to fourteen hundred dollars Wow. Okay. And what they use some card and do they get perks or something? What's the business? No. They it's for fraud management because what will happen is if you don't man I mean, think about it. You've got you know, USpress had nine thousand truck drivers,

is get they're gonna fill up with, you know, a thousand to your twelve hundred to fourteen hundred dollars Wow. Okay. And what they use some card and do they get perks or something? What's the business? No. They it's for fraud management because what will happen is if you don't man I mean, think about it. You've got you know, USpress had nine thousand truck drivers,

05:59

and you're giving them all an expense account that effectively they they're buying fuel, but they're also doing over the road maintenance. So if they need tires or they need a truck breaks down, you know, those things could be ten, twenty thousand dollars on a breakdown situation or could be you know, thousands of dollars in tires,

and you're giving them all an expense account that effectively they they're buying fuel, but they're also doing over the road maintenance. So if they need tires or they need a truck breaks down, you know, those things could be ten, twenty thousand dollars on a breakdown situation or could be you know, thousands of dollars in tires,

06:16

or fuel. And so, you know, a truck driver is responsible for probably six to eight thousand dollars of expenses per month when you look at total what the total cost of an expense is. And so you have a lot of fraud that ends up happening. And so fleet cards are there to manage the fraud, both from the fuel spend, but also on the,

or fuel. And so, you know, a truck driver is responsible for probably six to eight thousand dollars of expenses per month when you look at total what the total cost of an expense is. And so you have a lot of fraud that ends up happening. And so fleet cards are there to manage the fraud, both from the fuel spend, but also on the,

06:33

on the, you know, all the maintenance and stuff. Got it. I never knew what those did. Alright. Cool.

on the, you know, all the maintenance and stuff. Got it. I never knew what those did. Alright. Cool.

06:40

And so you're you're growing this thing, whatever. It's working out fine. And then you get into

And so you're you're growing this thing, whatever. It's working out fine. And then you get into

06:45

freight waves,

freight waves,

06:46

freight alley. It it that that works out good.

freight alley. It it that that works out good.

06:50

How long did it take to to kinda get into the tens of millions in revenue? It's about twenty million dollars business by in two years, three years, something like that. How did it grow so fast? The formula. Right? Like, timing was great. This was when a lot of venture capital investment made into the space.

How long did it take to to kinda get into the tens of millions in revenue? It's about twenty million dollars business by in two years, three years, something like that. How did it grow so fast? The formula. Right? Like, timing was great. This was when a lot of venture capital investment made into the space.

07:06

And then you also had this digitization that was taking place where companies were trying to digitize this supply chain. And then, you know, at the end of the day, I had relationships. It's funny because my dad didn't put any money in the company. He told me I'd be a bad CEO. And refused to invest in the business. And so I had to go raise Venture Capital. Dude, are you and your are you and your family close? Oh, yeah. My dad and I talk he's now, like, after he sold US Express. He's now one of my largest investors in Firecrown. He actually is my largest investor in Firecrown. So we're actually really tight. I've been following you for a while. And when I think of like a a a good media CEO, you are one of the the people that I think of.

And then you also had this digitization that was taking place where companies were trying to digitize this supply chain. And then, you know, at the end of the day, I had relationships. It's funny because my dad didn't put any money in the company. He told me I'd be a bad CEO. And refused to invest in the business. And so I had to go raise Venture Capital. Dude, are you and your are you and your family close? Oh, yeah. My dad and I talk he's now, like, after he sold US Express. He's now one of my largest investors in Firecrown. He actually is my largest investor in Firecrown. So we're actually really tight. I've been following you for a while. And when I think of like a a a good media CEO, you are one of the the people that I think of.

07:44

What attributes did you have that made him think that you would be a bad CEO.

What attributes did you have that made him think that you would be a bad CEO.

07:49

Yeah.

Yeah.

07:50

Well, I had ran a business, a payments business. They fired me in two thousand and fourteen, because it was a tech business, and tech technology businesses, while they generate a lot of margin as they scale, they actually burn a lot of capital. You know, trucking's a cash flow business.

Well, I had ran a business, a payments business. They fired me in two thousand and fourteen, because it was a tech business, and tech technology businesses, while they generate a lot of margin as they scale, they actually burn a lot of capital. You know, trucking's a cash flow business.

08:03

He didn't understand

He didn't understand

08:05

that you know, a tech business as it would scale would actually consume capital. So he got really mad and he would didn't wanna raise any money. So he fired me because he didn't think I could run a a business that would be profitable.

that you know, a tech business as it would scale would actually consume capital. So he got really mad and he would didn't wanna raise any money. So he fired me because he didn't think I could run a a business that would be profitable.

08:16

Because that's not how technology companies typically work in their early phases. What's funny about that business is is that's one of the most valuable assets, family's portfolio now.

Because that's not how technology companies typically work in their early phases. What's funny about that business is is that's one of the most valuable assets, family's portfolio now.

08:25

It just got a five hundred million dollar valuation last, you know, sold some stock in September of last year. So, it's done well,

It just got a five hundred million dollar valuation last, you know, sold some stock in September of last year. So, it's done well,

08:32

but I've, you know, I've been out of that business for many years. Alright. Look, the question that Sean and I get asked constantly is what skill set did we develop early on in our careers that kinda changed our business career, and that's an easy answer. It's copywriting. We've talked about copywriting and how it's changed our lives constantly on this podcast. And we give a ton of tips, a ton of techniques, a ton of frameworks, and throughout all the podcast, well, we decided to aggregate all of that into one simple document so you can read all of it. You can see we've learned copywriting, but you can see the resources that we turn to on a daily basis. You can see the frameworks, the techniques we use. It's in a simple document. You can check it out in the link below. Are right back to the show.

but I've, you know, I've been out of that business for many years. Alright. Look, the question that Sean and I get asked constantly is what skill set did we develop early on in our careers that kinda changed our business career, and that's an easy answer. It's copywriting. We've talked about copywriting and how it's changed our lives constantly on this podcast. And we give a ton of tips, a ton of techniques, a ton of frameworks, and throughout all the podcast, well, we decided to aggregate all of that into one simple document so you can read all of it. You can see we've learned copywriting, but you can see the resources that we turn to on a daily basis. You can see the frameworks, the techniques we use. It's in a simple document. You can check it out in the link below. Are right back to the show.

09:07

Alright. So this is the main thing that I wanted to talk about. So there's this,

Alright. So this is the main thing that I wanted to talk about. So there's this,

09:12

blog that I love. It's called,

blog that I love. It's called,

09:15

flash and flames.

flash and flames.

09:17

I'm pretty sure that, like,

I'm pretty sure that, like,

09:20

only maybe ten thousand people a month read flash and flames.

only maybe ten thousand people a month read flash and flames.

09:24

So if you're listening to this and you're a fan of, like, media businesses, this is my favorite blog on the internet. It's written by this guy named Colin Morrison. He's based in England.

So if you're listening to this and you're a fan of, like, media businesses, this is my favorite blog on the internet. It's written by this guy named Colin Morrison. He's based in England.

09:33

He wrote this article that I think it was called,

He wrote this article that I think it was called,

09:36

why

why

09:37

magazines are the new trophy asset or something like that. And I read that you saw that article and you're like, I'm gonna go out and buy magazines.

magazines are the new trophy asset or something like that. And I read that you saw that article and you're like, I'm gonna go out and buy magazines.

09:46

Is that right? Yeah. I mean, I was reading it, and I was know, it was essentially the trophy asset, and he was using the example of Mark Binioff, buying time magazine, and some others. And it was really interesting because I was like, you know, I could never buy time magazine. You know, the two media businesses that I would own that would be trophy assets

Is that right? Yeah. I mean, I was reading it, and I was know, it was essentially the trophy asset, and he was using the example of Mark Binioff, buying time magazine, and some others. And it was really interesting because I was like, you know, I could never buy time magazine. You know, the two media businesses that I would own that would be trophy assets

10:04

far beyond it would be, like,

far beyond it would be, like,

10:06

Bloomberg would be number one and, you know, owning owning something of CnBC scale would also be another. Obviously, there's a way outside my league, so they're not happening. I was thinking to myself,

Bloomberg would be number one and, you know, owning owning something of CnBC scale would also be another. Obviously, there's a way outside my league, so they're not happening. I was thinking to myself,

10:17

I had just taken up aviation, taken up flying. And I was reading flying magazine, and I was pretty uninspired.

I had just taken up aviation, taken up flying. And I was reading flying magazine, and I was pretty uninspired.

10:25

And so I was like, it would be cool to own, like,

And so I was like, it would be cool to own, like,

10:28

an aviation magazine to own flying magazine because that would be my trophy. I'm a pilot and that's sort of what I would I would like to do. And so it inspired you to reach out to the owners of wine magazine and asked if they would sell the magazine. And they said it's not for sale, but we're happy to talk to you. And

an aviation magazine to own flying magazine because that would be my trophy. I'm a pilot and that's sort of what I would I would like to do. And so it inspired you to reach out to the owners of wine magazine and asked if they would sell the magazine. And they said it's not for sale, but we're happy to talk to you. And

10:43

I made an offer, and they ended up selling it to me. And that sort of it was started off the same as started off as a side hustle. I didn't actually intend I thought print magazines were dead in dinosaurs, red print magazines,

I made an offer, and they ended up selling it to me. And that sort of it was started off the same as started off as a side hustle. I didn't actually intend I thought print magazines were dead in dinosaurs, red print magazines,

10:54

and I became very skeptical of the whole print magazine business model. But when I bought it, I fell in love with the not just the content and what you could do with it, but also the value what print brings to an audience. And so What I found is that really these print magazines are completely undervalued,

and I became very skeptical of the whole print magazine business model. But when I bought it, I fell in love with the not just the content and what you could do with it, but also the value what print brings to an audience. And so What I found is that really these print magazines are completely undervalued,

11:13

that nobody will touch them because they view have the same philosophy that I had about them dying.

that nobody will touch them because they view have the same philosophy that I had about them dying.

11:18

Yet they own these fantastically great communities and audiences

Yet they own these fantastically great communities and audiences

11:24

that have been around for decades. And and take away as you get into So the older populations that have grew up with magazines is they still

that have been around for decades. And and take away as you get into So the older populations that have grew up with magazines is they still

11:32

have these really important,

have these really important,

11:35

sort of connection to the brands. And you found that that's a really interesting opportunity.

sort of connection to the brands. And you found that that's a really interesting opportunity.

11:39

Were you liquid when you decided to buy it, or were you, like, I if they if the price that they want is in the millions, I'm gonna have to go get money from someone else. No. I had enough money to pull that off. So with your money, do you keep a large percent in, like, five hundred, and this was just a fraction of it, or was this like a meaningful amount? It was just I mean, it was a meaningful amount relative to my liquidity. I mean, in terms of my total, that works. Not significant. But I have a lot of paper worth as a pinch your back founder tends to be.

Were you liquid when you decided to buy it, or were you, like, I if they if the price that they want is in the millions, I'm gonna have to go get money from someone else. No. I had enough money to pull that off. So with your money, do you keep a large percent in, like, five hundred, and this was just a fraction of it, or was this like a meaningful amount? It was just I mean, it was a meaningful amount relative to my liquidity. I mean, in terms of my total, that works. Not significant. But I have a lot of paper worth as a pinch your back founder tends to be.

12:09

But you don't have a lot of liquidity. So relative to liquidity, yeah, it was a big it was a big number. Then what was the thinking is I'm gonna have to buy this and I'm gonna have to spend some hours per week to making sure that it doesn't lose money? Well, it was profitable. I mean, it was generated by half a million dollars of EBITDA a year as a stand alone entity, about two and a half million in revenue. So it was a small this is a small business, and we buy businesses at three to five times EBITDA, typically the number of these things trade at. We're not talking about a huge, like, this wasn't a huge capital outlay. So it's like one one point five to two point five million dollars is what it's called. You know, total purchase price is about three and a half million when you look

But you don't have a lot of liquidity. So relative to liquidity, yeah, it was a big it was a big number. Then what was the thinking is I'm gonna have to buy this and I'm gonna have to spend some hours per week to making sure that it doesn't lose money? Well, it was profitable. I mean, it was generated by half a million dollars of EBITDA a year as a stand alone entity, about two and a half million in revenue. So it was a small this is a small business, and we buy businesses at three to five times EBITDA, typically the number of these things trade at. We're not talking about a huge, like, this wasn't a huge capital outlay. So it's like one one point five to two point five million dollars is what it's called. You know, total purchase price is about three and a half million when you look

12:44

cash and and some deferred expenses and deferred payments.

cash and and some deferred expenses and deferred payments.

12:48

So it came out to about three and a half million dollars, which, you know, seven times

So it came out to about three and a half million dollars, which, you know, seven times

12:53

five, you know, two and a half being upfront and a million deferred. And, Yeah. But then you gotta deal with, like, two journalists. A lot of times, I hire journalists. They're fucking pains in the asses. And, like, when I think of, like, all my potential side hobbies, I'm, like, I'd rather be a beekeeper than, like, own,

five, you know, two and a half being upfront and a million deferred. And, Yeah. But then you gotta deal with, like, two journalists. A lot of times, I hire journalists. They're fucking pains in the asses. And, like, when I think of, like, all my potential side hobbies, I'm, like, I'd rather be a beekeeper than, like, own,

13:09

freaking magazine to deal with these employees, or I'd rather get to, like,

freaking magazine to deal with these employees, or I'd rather get to, like,

13:14

going for walks or hikes. I don't know about this. Well, look, I I mean, I had, you know, freightways as forty or if you look at total contributors that are journal, it could qualify as journalists or contributors.

going for walks or hikes. I don't know about this. Well, look, I I mean, I had, you know, freightways as forty or if you look at total contributors that are journal, it could qualify as journalists or contributors.

13:25

We have forty to fifty. So I I knew what the

We have forty to fifty. So I I knew what the

13:29

you know, I knew what the rodeo was gonna look like for running, you know, having teams of journalists work for you. What was different though with magazines is these are different than sort of younger,

you know, I knew what the rodeo was gonna look like for running, you know, having teams of journalists work for you. What was different though with magazines is these are different than sort of younger,

13:40

sort of,

sort of,

13:42

digital native journalist or or journalists that have been sort of working on news runs, is magazine journalists don't do it because they make a lot of money. They do it because they love the content.

digital native journalist or or journalists that have been sort of working on news runs, is magazine journalists don't do it because they make a lot of money. They do it because they love the content.

13:52

And and there also there's a sense of defeatism that has existed across all publishers. And I've seen this in the multitude of acquisitions I've done is where the editorial teams feel like the the the owners of the magazines don't love them and aren't willing to make investments in them. And they almost look at you and I hate to use this term,

And and there also there's a sense of defeatism that has existed across all publishers. And I've seen this in the multitude of acquisitions I've done is where the editorial teams feel like the the the owners of the magazines don't love them and aren't willing to make investments in them. And they almost look at you and I hate to use this term,

14:09

as almost liberators of their business. Because in some ways,

as almost liberators of their business. Because in some ways,

14:12

They they love the content. They love the subject matter. They have the relationships.

They they love the content. They love the subject matter. They have the relationships.

14:17

They tend to be sort of micro celebrities in their own communities for the So these are the old school influencers, if you will. And yet, they get no love from corporates because what's happened is the whole magazine business model has collapsed in the last ten years. Because the way that magazines made money in the past, the internet has destroyed that business model. And rather than sort of digitizing their business model or sort of evolving the business model, they just started to cut cost. And so that was the way that they sort of fend off the inevitable. And the problem is at some point,

They tend to be sort of micro celebrities in their own communities for the So these are the old school influencers, if you will. And yet, they get no love from corporates because what's happened is the whole magazine business model has collapsed in the last ten years. Because the way that magazines made money in the past, the internet has destroyed that business model. And rather than sort of digitizing their business model or sort of evolving the business model, they just started to cut cost. And so that was the way that they sort of fend off the inevitable. And the problem is at some point,

14:48

the value that the community gets and the audience gets is diminished.

the value that the community gets and the audience gets is diminished.

14:53

And

And

14:54

these things are just

these things are just

14:56

sort of a death circle. And so what we do is we we come in, we buy them in some ways, we liberate them from this sort of debt inevitable

sort of a death circle. And so what we do is we we come in, we buy them in some ways, we liberate them from this sort of debt inevitable

15:03

decline

decline

15:04

And they feel really encouraged by that. We, you know, we we upgrade the paper. We upgrade the quality. We make investments in the editorial team. You know, flying's editorial team went from three folks when we bought it to thirty. Usually, you have three primary full time employees,

And they feel really encouraged by that. We, you know, we we upgrade the paper. We upgrade the quality. We make investments in the editorial team. You know, flying's editorial team went from three folks when we bought it to thirty. Usually, you have three primary full time employees,

15:19

and then you have

and then you have

15:21

contributors that are submitting article that goes into the magazine. Very different from the world you and I sort of come from digital media where you actually have a full time staff that's writing content on a daily basis. They're riding they're contributing a piece that's once a month. And so it may be an airline pilot or a flight instructor

contributors that are submitting article that goes into the magazine. Very different from the world you and I sort of come from digital media where you actually have a full time staff that's writing content on a daily basis. They're riding they're contributing a piece that's once a month. And so it may be an airline pilot or a flight instructor

15:38

or someone who willy knows the jet market or the turban it. And so you you want subject matter expertise and typically writing as a second is is not their primary job. They do it as a sort of a side hustle to make a little bit of money. And that's why these businesses have operated. But what they've what they've also done is they've they've not made investments in, like, print quality or, online assets or any of that stuff. How much revenue did you do in the first year of owning it revenue and profit?

or someone who willy knows the jet market or the turban it. And so you you want subject matter expertise and typically writing as a second is is not their primary job. They do it as a sort of a side hustle to make a little bit of money. And that's why these businesses have operated. But what they've what they've also done is they've they've not made investments in, like, print quality or, online assets or any of that stuff. How much revenue did you do in the first year of owning it revenue and profit?

16:07

In two thousand twenty two, I think we were about seven million dollars in revenue, six and a half, seven million, something like that. Oh, so you, like, aggressively grew it. Yeah.

In two thousand twenty two, I think we were about seven million dollars in revenue, six and a half, seven million, something like that. Oh, so you, like, aggressively grew it. Yeah.

16:17

How?

How?

16:18

Because we invested in so a couple of things we did was we invested in the magazine.

Because we invested in so a couple of things we did was we invested in the magazine.

16:23

We raised the price

We raised the price

16:25

the magazine was losing seven dollars.

the magazine was losing seven dollars.

16:28

So the magazine was taken in eight dollars per subscription.

So the magazine was taken in eight dollars per subscription.

16:32

But it cost them fifteen dollars a month. It costs eight dollars a year

But it cost them fifteen dollars a month. It costs eight dollars a year

16:36

was the net revenue. I know. You look you look for folks that are listening, but your face is exactly what mine was. They were generating on average eight dollars in revenue per subscriber per year

was the net revenue. I know. You look you look for folks that are listening, but your face is exactly what mine was. They were generating on average eight dollars in revenue per subscriber per year

16:48

and it cost them fifteen dollars to fill that subscriber.

and it cost them fifteen dollars to fill that subscriber.

16:51

They were losing, and have this as far back as our data went two thousand six, losing seven dollars per subscriber. And I say so fine magazine

They were losing, and have this as far back as our data went two thousand six, losing seven dollars per subscriber. And I say so fine magazine

17:00

costs eight dollars a year to subscribe. The average yield, the average across the whole subscriber base, the magazine generated eight dollars on average per subscriber.

costs eight dollars a year to subscribe. The average yield, the average across the whole subscriber base, the magazine generated eight dollars on average per subscriber.

17:10

And when you say yield, that's not

And when you say yield, that's not

17:13

revenue minus the hard cost. That is the that is the revenue. That's the top line number. Oh, that's stupid. That you gotta, like losing Sam. They were losing seven dollars

revenue minus the hard cost. That is the that is the revenue. That's the top line number. Oh, that's stupid. That you gotta, like losing Sam. They were losing seven dollars

17:23

per magazine, a per subscriber per year. Yeah. So, like, a flying magazine subscriber is definitely gonna pay fifty dollars a year or whatever. Or You would think. Right? That was my reaction to it. It's essentially our

per magazine, a per subscriber per year. Yeah. So, like, a flying magazine subscriber is definitely gonna pay fifty dollars a year or whatever. Or You would think. Right? That was my reaction to it. It's essentially our

17:34

communications to the staff were to the sales team was basically you're gonna raise the rates

communications to the staff were to the sales team was basically you're gonna raise the rates

17:40

of advertising sales because we wanna go to people who who so on the ad sales, we raise the cost of ads, but we also just subscribers basically said, look, if somebody's not willing to spend thirty or forty dollars a year, then they're not really,

of advertising sales because we wanna go to people who who so on the ad sales, we raise the cost of ads, but we also just subscribers basically said, look, if somebody's not willing to spend thirty or forty dollars a year, then they're not really,

17:55

they don't care about the content. I mean, think about this. To buy an airplane, you're gonna spend, you know, minimum fifty thousand. That's a, you know, old aircraft.

they don't care about the content. I mean, think about this. To buy an airplane, you're gonna spend, you know, minimum fifty thousand. That's a, you know, old aircraft.

18:04

To buy a most of the folks are buying, you know, quarter of a million to a million dollar aircraft. And and some of our audience is seventy five to a hundred million dollar airplanes. And so you have a you have a a natural

To buy a most of the folks are buying, you know, quarter of a million to a million dollar aircraft. And and some of our audience is seventy five to a hundred million dollar airplanes. And so you have a you have a a natural

18:17

audience that is going to spend a lot of money because they care about the hobby or they care about their careers or whatever it is,

audience that is going to spend a lot of money because they care about the hobby or they care about their careers or whatever it is,

18:24

they're if they're not willing to spend thirty or forty dollars, they're also not gonna buy advertised because what happened is in the old days Well, and how many subscribers?

they're if they're not willing to spend thirty or forty dollars, they're also not gonna buy advertised because what happened is in the old days Well, and how many subscribers?

18:32

So we when we bought that, it was about a hundred and eight thousand subscribers. That's pretty great.

So we when we bought that, it was about a hundred and eight thousand subscribers. That's pretty great.

18:37

We actually when we raised the price, we raised the thirty initially,

We actually when we raised the price, we raised the thirty initially,

18:41

it actually went down to thirty two thousand subscribers. No shit. We bled it out, but that's okay. Like, we wanted to do that. We wanted rid of and there was a lot of what we call freeloaders. They were essentially

it actually went down to thirty two thousand subscribers. No shit. We bled it out, but that's okay. Like, we wanted to do that. We wanted rid of and there was a lot of what we call freeloaders. They were essentially

18:52

targeted for advertising purposes,

targeted for advertising purposes,

18:54

or they're the people, like, you may remember this. When you were younger is your like, your school would have a fundraiser and you would bring home a form and your parents would sign like, buy a magazine they didn't care about. There was a lot of subscriptions like that where the people that were actually subscribing didn't care about the content. I basically said I don't want any of I want people to actually care about the content. And we were very successful in doing that. And then and so we saw,

or they're the people, like, you may remember this. When you were younger is your like, your school would have a fundraiser and you would bring home a form and your parents would sign like, buy a magazine they didn't care about. There was a lot of subscriptions like that where the people that were actually subscribing didn't care about the content. I basically said I don't want any of I want people to actually care about the content. And we were very successful in doing that. And then and so we saw,

19:20

subscriptions

subscriptions

19:21

grow substantially in terms of actual full paid subscriptions.

grow substantially in terms of actual full paid subscriptions.

19:24

And subscription dollars, we were basically double the subscription revenue over the course of a year.

And subscription dollars, we were basically double the subscription revenue over the course of a year.

19:29

Yet it still had, like, a third of the subscribers. We went down to thirty two thousand. We're now about forty five thousand. We've grown it since. And are you able to manage this growth off the cash flows of the business you have to put more capital in? I put more capital,

Yet it still had, like, a third of the subscribers. We went down to thirty two thousand. We're now about forty five thousand. We've grown it since. And are you able to manage this growth off the cash flows of the business you have to put more capital in? I put more capital,

19:42

that I I wanted to put more capital in. Like, I could have ran it tighter, but I didn't want to. How much did you put in you know, look, I we total invested about forty million dollars in the business, but that's not flying. That's

that I I wanted to put more capital in. Like, I could have ran it tighter, but I didn't want to. How much did you put in you know, look, I we total invested about forty million dollars in the business, but that's not flying. That's

19:53

that's all the acquisitions we've done and everything we've acquire. But at this point in the story, you've not raised outside capital. No. No. I didn't raise. I actually had a I had half a million dollars in from two brothers of early investors and freightweights.

that's all the acquisitions we've done and everything we've acquire. But at this point in the story, you've not raised outside capital. No. No. I didn't raise. I actually had a I had half a million dollars in from two brothers of early investors and freightweights.

20:06

That bought in, they got fifteen percent of the business for five hundred thousand dollars.

That bought in, they got fifteen percent of the business for five hundred thousand dollars.

20:10

So you grow it to seven point five in in how much profit

So you grow it to seven point five in in how much profit

20:14

the business was a bowel breakeven at seven point five million because we were not we were not optimizing for profitability. We were optimizing for growth. Who'd you hire to run it? So I was I was doing a lot of work day to day, and I I've created a team to come in,

the business was a bowel breakeven at seven point five million because we were not we were not optimizing for profitability. We were optimizing for growth. Who'd you hire to run it? So I was I was doing a lot of work day to day, and I I've created a team to come in,

20:28

to to run the day to day operations.

to to run the day to day operations.

20:31

Okay. So, we're at the end of twenty two, and I think around this time, you actually were like,

Okay. So, we're at the end of twenty two, and I think around this time, you actually were like,

20:37

holy shit.

holy shit.

20:39

I might have just, like, hit on something interesting. I should go out and buy more and do this again, or did you first

I might have just, like, hit on something interesting. I should go out and buy more and do this again, or did you first

20:46

come up with the crazy idea to buy all that land. So I bought the land in two thousand twenty one.

come up with the crazy idea to buy all that land. So I bought the land in two thousand twenty one.

20:53

About fifteen hundred acres. So Originally, it I didn't plan on being a real estate. What we actually wanted to do

About fifteen hundred acres. So Originally, it I didn't plan on being a real estate. What we actually wanted to do

21:00

was,

was,

21:01

go out and build a media center connected to a runway, because I I, you know, if people are gonna fly in airplanes, remember at the end of the day, the content for flying is all about the airplane, Like, people

go out and build a media center connected to a runway, because I I, you know, if people are gonna fly in airplanes, remember at the end of the day, the content for flying is all about the airplane, Like, people

21:12

care less about the pilot. They care a lot about the airplane. And this is no different than a car magazine where you go look at the Lambo or the Ferrari

care less about the pilot. They care a lot about the airplane. And this is no different than a car magazine where you go look at the Lambo or the Ferrari

21:20

for the ADA audience, they wanna see the newest aircraft being produced. And so we wanted to create a video center to connect it to an airport. The problem was that none of the airports in the community,

for the ADA audience, they wanna see the newest aircraft being produced. And so we wanted to create a video center to connect it to an airport. The problem was that none of the airports in the community,

21:31

there's five regional,

there's five regional,

21:32

community airports around Chattanooga.

community airports around Chattanooga.

21:35

Were willing to sort of do anything. They said, you know, basically,

Were willing to sort of do anything. They said, you know, basically,

21:39

you have to go from the state, the municipality, the state, and the FAA have to approve it in order to get to build a media center. When you say media center, you mean yeah. To take video, we wanted to have a hanger that had a, basically, a video studio and photography studio that we can bring your planes in But you have to build that, because it wasn't there's no hangar. There's a national hangar shortage across the country.

you have to go from the state, the municipality, the state, and the FAA have to approve it in order to get to build a media center. When you say media center, you mean yeah. To take video, we wanted to have a hanger that had a, basically, a video studio and photography studio that we can bring your planes in But you have to build that, because it wasn't there's no hangar. There's a national hangar shortage across the country.

22:00

And and because what happens is nobody wants to municipalities who own all these airports don't want investment in

And and because what happens is nobody wants to municipalities who own all these airports don't want investment in

22:08

private hangars, for small aircraft. They they want the big airplanes. And it's just a problem of allocation. So we decided to go build our own headquarters,

private hangars, for small aircraft. They they want the big airplanes. And it's just a problem of allocation. So we decided to go build our own headquarters,

22:18

and I was looking for land, looking for at the acres, and I came across this piece of land at fifteen hundred acres.

and I was looking for land, looking for at the acres, and I came across this piece of land at fifteen hundred acres.

22:24

And,

And,

22:25

it was priced at three point six five million. And,

it was priced at three point six five million. And,

22:28

I I drove up there. And it reminded me of this resort in East Tennessee called Blackberry Farm.

I I drove up there. And it reminded me of this resort in East Tennessee called Blackberry Farm.

22:35

My wife absolutely loves to sort of back to farming agriculture.

My wife absolutely loves to sort of back to farming agriculture.

22:38

So I show up there, and I'm like, this looks and feels a lot like library farm. And that of the original inspiration is we wanted to create a fly in community with a runway

So I show up there, and I'm like, this looks and feels a lot like library farm. And that of the original inspiration is we wanted to create a fly in community with a runway

22:48

and home sites that are connected to the runway

and home sites that are connected to the runway

22:51

that had that Blackberry farm inspired sort of experience.

that had that Blackberry farm inspired sort of experience.

22:56

How much did you pay for that? Three point six million?

How much did you pay for that? Three point six million?

22:59

Did you pay it or did you raise money? No. I borrowed it from the bank. I mean, real estate is one of those things that you can go borrow money.

Did you pay it or did you raise money? No. I borrowed it from the bank. I mean, real estate is one of those things that you can go borrow money.

23:06

And so remember, I am I have a a relatively high net worth. I don't have no liquidity. This is why I'm asking these questions because

And so remember, I am I have a a relatively high net worth. I don't have no liquidity. This is why I'm asking these questions because

23:16

your net worth is significantly higher than mine because,

your net worth is significantly higher than mine because,

23:21

your your business is bigger than mine, but

your your business is bigger than mine, but

23:23

I'm liquid.

I'm liquid.

23:25

And

And

23:26

even me, I'm like scared to make some of these bets,

even me, I'm like scared to make some of these bets,

23:30

you

you

23:31

don't seem to have that same fear. You seem to be way more offensive and you seem way more I mean, look, it's not like we're inventing, like, electric cars or going to Mars. And so I don't wanna, like, Grandia is it make it two grand, but, like, you're out laying a lot of cash on some really crazy ideas

don't seem to have that same fear. You seem to be way more offensive and you seem way more I mean, look, it's not like we're inventing, like, electric cars or going to Mars. And so I don't wanna, like, Grandia is it make it two grand, but, like, you're out laying a lot of cash on some really crazy ideas

23:48

like, I'm gonna build and I'm gonna buy an old magazine and I'm gonna

like, I'm gonna build and I'm gonna buy an old magazine and I'm gonna

23:52

spend more of my money

spend more of my money

23:54

and

and

23:55

build an aviation

build an aviation

23:57

community. Like, that's, like, really weird.

community. Like, that's, like, really weird.

23:59

And that's really ballsy.

And that's really ballsy.

24:01

Why

Why

24:02

what do you think you what's that gene inside of you that makes you think these wacky things are gonna work? Because

what do you think you what's that gene inside of you that makes you think these wacky things are gonna work? Because

24:08

the data, like, my experience suggests that it will, but, you know, it's taking more shots on goal. Like, yeah, I got three and a half million dollars in an investment

the data, like, my experience suggests that it will, but, you know, it's taking more shots on goal. Like, yeah, I got three and a half million dollars in an investment

24:17

for a real estate project, but if it goes to zero. I still own three to fifteen dollars of land, right, the end of the day. Yeah. But that's a huge project to get into because do do you know anything about real estate? No. But you can you can bring in teams to go run those things,

for a real estate project, but if it goes to zero. I still own three to fifteen dollars of land, right, the end of the day. Yeah. But that's a huge project to get into because do do you know anything about real estate? No. But you can you can bring in teams to go run those things,

24:30

which we had. So,

which we had. So,

24:32

like,

like,

24:33

Sam, it's a matter of scaling businesses and hiring teams to run these things. Yeah. It's risk. But Yeah. I agree with you. This is just this is just outside your your expertise, and you've made it your expertise very quickly.

Sam, it's a matter of scaling businesses and hiring teams to run these things. Yeah. It's risk. But Yeah. I agree with you. This is just this is just outside your your expertise, and you've made it your expertise very quickly.

24:45

Yeah. I mean, but but media was outside my expertise.

Yeah. I mean, but but media was outside my expertise.

24:49

Date running a data business was outside my expertise, but real estate is actually frankly

Date running a data business was outside my expertise, but real estate is actually frankly

24:54

I wouldn't say it's easier. It's a it's a it's a different playbook that frankly can be learned. It's not as if, you know, building a SaaS business, building a data business, there's a very small number of sort of models to follow. There's a very few companies that you can sort of model your business model. I think the risk is lower for that, though. The risk is lower for software.

I wouldn't say it's easier. It's a it's a it's a different playbook that frankly can be learned. It's not as if, you know, building a SaaS business, building a data business, there's a very small number of sort of models to follow. There's a very few companies that you can sort of model your business model. I think the risk is lower for that, though. The risk is lower for software.

25:13

I think real estate real estate is,

I think real estate real estate is,

25:17

so much less riskier because you actually have finite assets at the end of the day. That's true. The difference though is when I I can start a software, I can start an internet or data company

so much less riskier because you actually have finite assets at the end of the day. That's true. The difference though is when I I can start a software, I can start an internet or data company

25:26

with significantly

with significantly

25:27

less money than it costs to purchase

less money than it costs to purchase

25:30

a a meaningful piece of property. But I own the land. Remember that land at fifteen hundred acres at twenty four hundred dollars an acre

a a meaningful piece of property. But I own the land. Remember that land at fifteen hundred acres at twenty four hundred dollars an acre

25:37

has value. You can sell that land for something else. You can partition it out.

has value. You can sell that land for something else. You can partition it out.

25:42

You know, if you looked at that at an acre would go for in that community, fifty to sixty thousand, it was subdivided. This wasn't.

You know, if you looked at that at an acre would go for in that community, fifty to sixty thousand, it was subdivided. This wasn't.

25:49

And so we knew the land had some underlying value. But we didn't know if there would be any demand pilots.

And so we knew the land had some underlying value. But we didn't know if there would be any demand pilots.

25:55

We advertised it was in January two thousand twenty two. We actually took out ads in our own magazine to test the market. What did you say in the ad? You know, it was written as if it was written to my wife, effectively.

We advertised it was in January two thousand twenty two. We actually took out ads in our own magazine to test the market. What did you say in the ad? You know, it was written as if it was written to my wife, effectively.

26:06

Like, my wife was the target audience, which is your Blackberry Farm audience.

Like, my wife was the target audience, which is your Blackberry Farm audience.

26:10

And we wrote a story about we're building a resort, and we didn't focus on the aviation, which is really what you would expect this to focus on. We focused on the amenities around the experience that we're gonna build. We shape we vision shaped it, and we didn't expect to get a lot of response. We had over three hundred inbound inquiries on that one ad we took out in our own magazine.

And we wrote a story about we're building a resort, and we didn't focus on the aviation, which is really what you would expect this to focus on. We focused on the amenities around the experience that we're gonna build. We shape we vision shaped it, and we didn't expect to get a lot of response. We had over three hundred inbound inquiries on that one ad we took out in our own magazine.

26:32

And, we were able to get people to sign contracts to basically,

And, we were able to get people to sign contracts to basically,

26:36

reserve their spot. And we knew then We had a winner. Did you, like, make a joke

reserve their spot. And we knew then We had a winner. Did you, like, make a joke

26:41

about the fact that you're new to this, or or were you, like, more professional, but you're, like, I didn't make a joke about no, but we'd I mean, like, we were very transparent about the fact this was a

about the fact that you're new to this, or or were you, like, more professional, but you're, like, I didn't make a joke about no, but we'd I mean, like, we were very transparent about the fact this was a

26:52

Not joke,

Not joke,

26:53

but being lighthearted. You're like,

but being lighthearted. You're like,

26:55

who knows what's gonna happen?

who knows what's gonna happen?

26:57

I mean, ultimately, Sam, it's about, like, we recruit recruited people that actually had experience and during, you know, the development,

I mean, ultimately, Sam, it's about, like, we recruit recruited people that actually had experience and during, you know, the development,

27:05

the master planning community,

the master planning community,

27:07

there are groups that actually take on a lot of the burden to do the work that you need to build these things. It's not as if I'm having to Fifteen hundred acres is a huge project. You're not gonna do that yourself. You're gonna you're gonna want teams to deal with zoning issues, environmental issues, engineering issues, And we brought in air airport planning to, consultants. We brought in,

there are groups that actually take on a lot of the burden to do the work that you need to build these things. It's not as if I'm having to Fifteen hundred acres is a huge project. You're not gonna do that yourself. You're gonna you're gonna want teams to deal with zoning issues, environmental issues, engineering issues, And we brought in air airport planning to, consultants. We brought in,

27:28

development consultants. And so It's not as if I'm doing all this work myself. I have a whole team. You asked who's running these projects. I have a team that's running them,

development consultants. And so It's not as if I'm doing all this work myself. I have a whole team. You asked who's running these projects. I have a team that's running them,

27:36

that's managing all the different pieces of it. And they and people wrote in, and they basically said, if you're able to build this, count me in for buying a eight hundred thousand dollar home on that property or something. That's that's the pro the lots are six hundred thousand. So the homes are probably two million to three million dollars. And did they sign And you they what did they what did they give to you that the bank took as,

that's managing all the different pieces of it. And they and people wrote in, and they basically said, if you're able to build this, count me in for buying a eight hundred thousand dollar home on that property or something. That's that's the pro the lots are six hundred thousand. So the homes are probably two million to three million dollars. And did they sign And you they what did they what did they give to you that the bank took as,

27:59

they signed a a contract and they let they put a deposit. So forty thousand dollars an acre on a six hundred thousand dollar purchase price, but they put forty thousand dollars in per acre. And you rate thousand per lot. And was it like you basically

they signed a a contract and they let they put a deposit. So forty thousand dollars an acre on a six hundred thousand dollar purchase price, but they put forty thousand dollars in per acre. And you rate thousand per lot. And was it like you basically

28:13

quote pre sold? Was it like fifteen million dollars worth of these properties? Yeah. We actually got up to about twenty eight million dollars and total bookings,

quote pre sold? Was it like fifteen million dollars worth of these properties? Yeah. We actually got up to about twenty eight million dollars and total bookings,

28:22

yeah, total reservation deposits.

yeah, total reservation deposits.

28:24

But we thought we were gonna get through this process us, for environmental approval, quick road zoning approval. We actually thought we'd break down by the end of twenty two. So we had some churn out. We've refunded their money. These are refundable deposits. It's not as if they're giving you money that you get to hold on to. It's no different than if you bought you put a deposit on an airplane,

But we thought we were gonna get through this process us, for environmental approval, quick road zoning approval. We actually thought we'd break down by the end of twenty two. So we had some churn out. We've refunded their money. These are refundable deposits. It's not as if they're giving you money that you get to hold on to. It's no different than if you bought you put a deposit on an airplane,

28:43

or put a deposit on a car.

or put a deposit on a car.

28:45

These are fully refundable.

These are fully refundable.

28:47

But we're about fifteen million dollars in in total reservations right now. So this project alone is awesome.

But we're about fifteen million dollars in in total reservations right now. So this project alone is awesome.

28:54

But then it gets even crazier and like, I this is I'm just fascinated by you because view you a little bit as a peer and that we're both, like, media nerds.

But then it gets even crazier and like, I this is I'm just fascinated by you because view you a little bit as a peer and that we're both, like, media nerds.

29:03

But the way that we're different is that you're

But the way that we're different is that you're

29:06

you're doing great with risk. Like, you you're you're going you're taking more risk, I think, but it doesn't it's all working out. And this is where it gets interesting is you're, like, Alright. This thing worked for flying magazines.

you're doing great with risk. Like, you you're you're going you're taking more risk, I think, but it doesn't it's all working out. And this is where it gets interesting is you're, like, Alright. This thing worked for flying magazines.

29:19

Fly magazine, what happens if I go out and get more of these titles and do this whole content to commerce thing?

Fly magazine, what happens if I go out and get more of these titles and do this whole content to commerce thing?

29:25

And

And

29:26

did you raise money for that?

did you raise money for that?

29:30

Not initially.

Not initially.

29:32

So I have not raised any my father invested when he sold his trucking business last year. So he's my only out side investor other than the initial round. Everything was done by myself. And I was just using bank debt,

So I have not raised any my father invested when he sold his trucking business last year. So he's my only out side investor other than the initial round. Everything was done by myself. And I was just using bank debt,

29:45

frankly,

frankly,

29:45

borrowing money from banks and liquidating my portfolio because I felt like I would rather invest in myself than invest in the S and P. I think the difference between Sam isn't necessarily that I'm

borrowing money from banks and liquidating my portfolio because I felt like I would rather invest in myself than invest in the S and P. I think the difference between Sam isn't necessarily that I'm

29:57

Like, I am willing to take more risk. I'm also willing to take more shots on goal. I just think fundamentally,

Like, I am willing to take more risk. I'm also willing to take more shots on goal. I just think fundamentally,

30:02

like an asymmetric mindset that I have is

like an asymmetric mindset that I have is

30:05

is I may lose let's say the real estate project went to zero, you may lose three and a half million dollars.

is I may lose let's say the real estate project went to zero, you may lose three and a half million dollars.

30:12

That sucks.

That sucks.

30:13

But you know what? I had been my dad cut me off. My dad fired me in two thousand fourteen. I had basically,

But you know what? I had been my dad cut me off. My dad fired me in two thousand fourteen. I had basically,

30:19

like,

like,

30:21

No job. Nothing. Like, it was I was, for all intents and purposes on my own at right bottom, I had to figure it out. I've done that before. And so I'm not afraid of losing it all.

No job. Nothing. Like, it was I was, for all intents and purposes on my own at right bottom, I had to figure it out. I've done that before. And so I'm not afraid of losing it all.

30:32

And

And

30:33

I know that I can get it back. And so

I know that I can get it back. And so

30:35

we've applied that role to everything that we've done, and we make acquisitions

we've applied that role to everything that we've done, and we make acquisitions

30:40

under the philosophy that it's asymmetric risk is, like, let's say that we buy a business or buy a magazine

under the philosophy that it's asymmetric risk is, like, let's say that we buy a business or buy a magazine

30:45

that's we spend half a million dollars or a million dollars. And let's say it goes to zero. Let's say that we're completely wrong about a thesis, and the thing is just a dog. Well, then we write off that half a million or million dollar investment.

that's we spend half a million dollars or a million dollars. And let's say it goes to zero. Let's say that we're completely wrong about a thesis, and the thing is just a dog. Well, then we write off that half a million or million dollar investment.

30:57

But if we're right and we get a three or five or ten x multiple on that business, that creates an enormous amount of value for us. And so that's how we've approached our acquisitions.

But if we're right and we get a three or five or ten x multiple on that business, that creates an enormous amount of value for us. And so that's how we've approached our acquisitions.

31:07

You know, I'm willing to take bank debt because bank debt is frankly pretty cheap.

You know, I'm willing to take bank debt because bank debt is frankly pretty cheap.

31:12

By the way, I think about money differently than you. And I think it's cool to hear your perspective because I think I should do it more. But the way that I think about it with privately, as a entrepreneur, private companies, I think

By the way, I think about money differently than you. And I think it's cool to hear your perspective because I think I should do it more. But the way that I think about it with privately, as a entrepreneur, private companies, I think

31:23

If most of my money if most of my net worth is illiquid,

If most of my money if most of my net worth is illiquid,

31:27

any liquidity that I get, whether it's annual cap flows or it's from selling. I I sold one of my companies.

any liquidity that I get, whether it's annual cap flows or it's from selling. I I sold one of my companies.

31:33

I take all that money and I stock it away in, like, a safe thing where it's, like,

I take all that money and I stock it away in, like, a safe thing where it's, like,

31:40

If all else goes to shit from whatever I have, that is enough forever. And so that's how I view it. So, like, whatever how much money I have, I I stick it away. And I'm like, that doesn't exist, basically.

If all else goes to shit from whatever I have, that is enough forever. And so that's how I view it. So, like, whatever how much money I have, I I stick it away. And I'm like, that doesn't exist, basically.

31:52

And

And

31:53

I'm gonna go and use a very much smaller sum to go start more companies And I'll try to live off of my income from those companies. And if they sell, great. If they don't, hey, I still have this other thing that I have. What you're doing is different than me. And I like what you're doing because I think it's bolder and I think it's probably a bit more fun if it works, which is You're like, even though I've got this private, this other private company that it's doing quite well, so it's not gonna go out to nothing. But I have some liquidity.

I'm gonna go and use a very much smaller sum to go start more companies And I'll try to live off of my income from those companies. And if they sell, great. If they don't, hey, I still have this other thing that I have. What you're doing is different than me. And I like what you're doing because I think it's bolder and I think it's probably a bit more fun if it works, which is You're like, even though I've got this private, this other private company that it's doing quite well, so it's not gonna go out to nothing. But I have some liquidity.

32:19

I'm gonna pile that liquidity into more interesting,

I'm gonna pile that liquidity into more interesting,

32:23

but potentially risky things. Well, I, like, freightways at some point will sell. Like, it will show. It will do be an exit. That to me is the nest egg,

but potentially risky things. Well, I, like, freightways at some point will sell. Like, it will show. It will do be an exit. That to me is the nest egg,

32:31

like, for for my long term. Like, I know it's going to sell. Who knows what it sells for? But there is value fundamental tangible value in the business. So for me, and and it's big enough that it's slightly direct or very direct. Yeah. I mean, it's it's totally

like, for for my long term. Like, I know it's going to sell. Who knows what it sells for? But there is value fundamental tangible value in the business. So for me, and and it's big enough that it's slightly direct or very direct. Yeah. I mean, it's it's totally

32:44

derisked. And and there's a lot of value in that business. And I I had a salary. It's not as if I'd I'm not, like, the board takes care of me. And I so for me, I have that asset.

derisked. And and there's a lot of value in that business. And I I had a salary. It's not as if I'd I'm not, like, the board takes care of me. And I so for me, I have that asset.

32:55

Everything else is

Everything else is

32:57

that will set my family up for, you know, at least a generation, like, my kids would be able to college, be able to buy a house and so forth. So I'm not worried about, like, my ability to survive if everything else falls down, but I do think diversifying my risk through all these other projects actually enhances my long term returns

that will set my family up for, you know, at least a generation, like, my kids would be able to college, be able to buy a house and so forth. So I'm not worried about, like, my ability to survive if everything else falls down, but I do think diversifying my risk through all these other projects actually enhances my long term returns

33:17

particularly if I'm using my balance sheet to borrow money from the bank at frankly relatively low cost. But what about diversifying your time? That's probably that what Well, that's what teams do for you. Right? Like, you hire people to run it. Like, you know, Preston Hallen, who I I think you know,

particularly if I'm using my balance sheet to borrow money from the bank at frankly relatively low cost. But what about diversifying your time? That's probably that what Well, that's what teams do for you. Right? Like, you hire people to run it. Like, you know, Preston Hallen, who I I think you know,

33:33

we brought Preston in to initially run flying. He's now running a finance business that we've got,

we brought Preston in to initially run flying. He's now running a finance business that we've got,

33:39

that is doing aircraft financing.

that is doing aircraft financing.

33:41

We brought in a team to run. We have reached running our real estate project. So, again, and I fired myself from almost every functional role I had at FreightWids

We brought in a team to run. We have reached running our real estate project. So, again, and I fired myself from almost every functional role I had at FreightWids

33:50

is

is

33:50

Alright. Are you are you chairman or CEO I'm CEO, but I the day to day

Alright. Are you are you chairman or CEO I'm CEO, but I the day to day

33:55

day to day

day to day

33:57

functions inside that business, I have

functions inside that business, I have

33:59

Spencer Highland who's my C CFO and COO is running most of the day to day. Most of the day to day decisions are going through him. I'm working through strategy and thinking about the long term prognosis business.

Spencer Highland who's my C CFO and COO is running most of the day to day. Most of the day to day decisions are going through him. I'm working through strategy and thinking about the long term prognosis business.

34:10

So I can run and do deals and look at additional ways to lever this business up without getting caught up in the individual sort of minutiae running a business. So how many,

So I can run and do deals and look at additional ways to lever this business up without getting caught up in the individual sort of minutiae running a business. So how many,

34:22

titles has Fire Crown acquired at this point? We're about fifty four, I think, is the number. Did you buy them in batches? Like, you bought like You do. You typically I mean, publishers in the magazine business it's hard to get scale with one title

titles has Fire Crown acquired at this point? We're about fifty four, I think, is the number. Did you buy them in batches? Like, you bought like You do. You typically I mean, publishers in the magazine business it's hard to get scale with one title

34:36

just because there's a finite audience that will care about that content. And so, typically, a publisher And here's the thing about magazines is that only twenty five percent of the content,

just because there's a finite audience that will care about that content. And so, typically, a publisher And here's the thing about magazines is that only twenty five percent of the content,

34:45

a twenty five five percent of the operations of that business actually is value added to a You have audience development. You have magazine,

a twenty five five percent of the operations of that business actually is value added to a You have audience development. You have magazine,

34:53

production.

production.

34:54

You have layout. Like, a customer doesn't experience that. They Only about twenty five percent of the cost structure is

You have layout. Like, a customer doesn't experience that. They Only about twenty five percent of the cost structure is

35:00

the editorial product for the photography.

the editorial product for the photography.

35:03

So

So

35:04

you you need a lot of infrastructure to run successful magazine or frankly media business operation. I think you know the media side magazine. Who is who is in Spain. Basically, the hustle,

you you need a lot of infrastructure to run successful magazine or frankly media business operation. I think you know the media side magazine. Who is who is in Spain. Basically, the hustle,

35:13

we could've I mean, we were at about two million subscribers when I sold. Now I don't know what it's at. Let's say three or three and a half.

we could've I mean, we were at about two million subscribers when I sold. Now I don't know what it's at. Let's say three or three and a half.

35:21

Basically, three people on editorial if we were selling ads, when I ran the company, three people on editorial, and thirty seven people selling

Basically, three people on editorial if we were selling ads, when I ran the company, three people on editorial, and thirty seven people selling

35:31

ads and managing ads and making it grow. Yeah. And as three people bring all the value. It's crazy. Right? It's I mean, it's just how these media businesses work is

ads and managing ads and making it grow. Yeah. And as three people bring all the value. It's crazy. Right? It's I mean, it's just how these media businesses work is

35:42

you have a couple of people that are upfront and the rest of it is infrastructure. And so what you typically see when we buy a magazine is we're having we're buying a portfolio. We're buying not just one title, but three or four titles that come along with it. And so we've done a, you know, maybe two may maybe twenty different acquisitions

you have a couple of people that are upfront and the rest of it is infrastructure. And so what you typically see when we buy a magazine is we're having we're buying a portfolio. We're buying not just one title, but three or four titles that come along with it. And so we've done a, you know, maybe two may maybe twenty different acquisitions

36:01

that had made up that portfolio, but some of them have been really big. We bought Vonier,

that had made up that portfolio, but some of them have been really big. We bought Vonier,

36:05

which is like the the the largest publisher in Sweden. There's sort of a Rupert Murdoch family of Sweden.

which is like the the the largest publisher in Sweden. There's sort of a Rupert Murdoch family of Sweden.

36:11

And they owned a bunch of boating titles, which we bought,

And they owned a bunch of boating titles, which we bought,

36:15

last

last

36:16

been last fall.

been last fall.

36:17

And really, we owned boating, yachting, selling world,

And really, we owned boating, yachting, selling world,

36:21

fish, saltwater sportsmen, and, so really this large ring title. In aviation, we bought a number of aviation titles

fish, saltwater sportsmen, and, so really this large ring title. In aviation, we bought a number of aviation titles

36:28

through various portfolios. And then we just recently bought, model trains,

through various portfolios. And then we just recently bought, model trains,

36:33

a bunch of railroad titles and astronomy titles. So

a bunch of railroad titles and astronomy titles. So

36:36

bringing that all together that puts us the whole portfolio.

bringing that all together that puts us the whole portfolio.

36:39

Just whatever twelve year old Craig is into, boats, planes,

Just whatever twelve year old Craig is into, boats, planes,

36:43

RC trades,

RC trades,

36:45

So it's almost, like, my five year old's, like, dream. So, I mean, think of it as boats, it's airplanes, it's trains, and space.

So it's almost, like, my five year old's, like, dream. So, I mean, think of it as boats, it's airplanes, it's trains, and space.

36:52

It's pretty cool. For, you know, like a five year old boy, it's pretty magical. You know, but what we're buying are these audiences that love the content.

It's pretty cool. For, you know, like a five year old boy, it's pretty magical. You know, but what we're buying are these audiences that love the content.

37:01

Their their enthusiast

Their their enthusiast

37:03

and effectively by owning the the magazine, which we finance

and effectively by owning the the magazine, which we finance

37:07

through the the P and L of the magazine itself, subscriptions and advertisings, we make money in media.

through the the P and L of the magazine itself, subscriptions and advertisings, we make money in media.

37:13

But we're ultimately buying the audience itself

But we're ultimately buying the audience itself

37:17

to sit to offer some other product to service to them. Yeah. So let's walk through this playbook.

to sit to offer some other product to service to them. Yeah. So let's walk through this playbook.

37:22

So the playbook is to acquire customers

So the playbook is to acquire customers

37:25

profitably. And you do that by having a media arm that its own business or having a media company that's is is own business and make the profit via subscriptions and advertising.

profitably. And you do that by having a media arm that its own business or having a media company that's is is own business and make the profit via subscriptions and advertising.

37:35

Step two is to make sure the audience,

Step two is to make sure the audience,

37:38

I imagine you'll have to correct me. It's you're you're doing something in your head of, like, will they spend a lot of money on something. Is that right?

I imagine you'll have to correct me. It's you're you're doing something in your head of, like, will they spend a lot of money on something. Is that right?

37:46

Yeah. Essentially. But if they're if they're enthusiast,

Yeah. Essentially. But if they're if they're enthusiast,

37:49

if a if a category is big,

if a if a category is big,

37:52

and they're enthusiastic

and they're enthusiastic

37:53

about the category, then the answer is pretty much yes. I mean, if you're the thing to remember about magazines,

about the category, then the answer is pretty much yes. I mean, if you're the thing to remember about magazines,

37:59

antiqually magazines that are decade old magazines. As these things have survived,

antiqually magazines that are decade old magazines. As these things have survived,

38:03

potentially the great meal magazines are over a hundred years old. They've survived multiple wars, They've said, survived multiple pandemics. They've survived,

potentially the great meal magazines are over a hundred years old. They've survived multiple wars, They've said, survived multiple pandemics. They've survived,

38:11

the great depression.

the great depression.

38:13

Like, the audience truly cares about the content.

Like, the audience truly cares about the content.

38:16

Enough to subscribe. And if they've if these magazines have survived the internet age and multiple phases of it, they're going to be around for many, many years. And so essentially, we're buying it because they they care deeply about the contact, and then ultimately they can buy another product or service. And then is step three, like, raise prices and sell ads better

Enough to subscribe. And if they've if these magazines have survived the internet age and multiple phases of it, they're going to be around for many, many years. And so essentially, we're buying it because they they care deeply about the contact, and then ultimately they can buy another product or service. And then is step three, like, raise prices and sell ads better

38:37

or, like, do you think about that? Well, I don't think we look at it in the same step. Right? So, like, We do we treat these. We have a we have a media business which runs the media operation.

or, like, do you think about that? Well, I don't think we look at it in the same step. Right? So, like, We do we treat these. We have a we have a media business which runs the media operation.

38:48

And then as we go find commerce, So let's say aircraft finance,

And then as we go find commerce, So let's say aircraft finance,

38:53

we find essentially an executive, a CEO, if you will, that can run that business

we find essentially an executive, a CEO, if you will, that can run that business

38:58

through its own P and L that's separate than the media business. But in order to finance that, you like, these people wouldn't be selling you these businesses if they were kicking ass. But you've been able to you've been able to make them kick ass a lot better. And so you must be doing something just on the media side that they didn't do. What are those things? Yeah. I mean, effectively, you're fixing a lot of the cost structure

through its own P and L that's separate than the media business. But in order to finance that, you like, these people wouldn't be selling you these businesses if they were kicking ass. But you've been able to you've been able to make them kick ass a lot better. And so you must be doing something just on the media side that they didn't do. What are those things? Yeah. I mean, effectively, you're fixing a lot of the cost structure

39:19

and looking at it and in terms of the spend

and looking at it and in terms of the spend

39:22

opportunity,

opportunity,

39:23

of that audience and create data

of that audience and create data

39:26

that can, you know,

that can, you know,

39:28

really

really

39:29

look at data from the perspective of intent

look at data from the perspective of intent

39:32

but for someone that wants to buy a product. So if you're if you're reading flying magazine,

but for someone that wants to buy a product. So if you're if you're reading flying magazine,

39:36

you're either a pilot, an aspiring pilot,

you're either a pilot, an aspiring pilot,

39:40

or an aircraft

or an aircraft

39:41

owner or somebody who wants to own an airplane. This is that's the former prime. I mean, there's people who read flying because they like airplanes, but it's a small piece of the audience.

owner or somebody who wants to own an airplane. This is that's the former prime. I mean, there's people who read flying because they like airplanes, but it's a small piece of the audience.

39:49

And so we know each of those categories are gonna spend some money in each of their outcomes. So a student pilot's gonna take flying lessons. It's gonna cost them ten thousand dollars. Gonna be a career pilot. He's gonna make fifteen million dollars over the course of his career. A lot of opportunity to to help him,

And so we know each of those categories are gonna spend some money in each of their outcomes. So a student pilot's gonna take flying lessons. It's gonna cost them ten thousand dollars. Gonna be a career pilot. He's gonna make fifteen million dollars over the course of his career. A lot of opportunity to to help him,

40:05

along his journey.

along his journey.

40:07

If they're an aircraft buyer or prospective buyer, they're gonna buy an airplane. They're also gonna buy insurance finance out of that. They're also gonna have a lot of expenses to own that aircraft.

If they're an aircraft buyer or prospective buyer, they're gonna buy an airplane. They're also gonna buy insurance finance out of that. They're also gonna have a lot of expenses to own that aircraft.

40:16

Throughout their life. And so these are the journeys that we we have, and that's ultimately what we're doing is we're optimizing the the magazine, the advertisers,

Throughout their life. And so these are the journeys that we we have, and that's ultimately what we're doing is we're optimizing the the magazine, the advertisers,

40:25

based on intent, not based on the fact that this is a number. And what we've explained to the owners that the advertisers

based on intent, not based on the fact that this is a number. And what we've explained to the owners that the advertisers

40:32

is wouldn't you rather reach the hundred people that are gonna buy them by your airplane

is wouldn't you rather reach the hundred people that are gonna buy them by your airplane

40:38

versus the hundred thousand people that you know, ninety nine percent of those people are never gonna buy any of your products. That's what we need to do is actually get into that intent data. And we do that through digital,

versus the hundred thousand people that you know, ninety nine percent of those people are never gonna buy any of your products. That's what we need to do is actually get into that intent data. And we do that through digital,

40:49

Like, print is just one aspect of what we do, but it's driving intent data to actually be able to demonstrate to them there's a value to that customer. That was a very good pitch. And then,

Like, print is just one aspect of what we do, but it's driving intent data to actually be able to demonstrate to them there's a value to that customer. That was a very good pitch. And then,

41:01

you when you hire these guys to create so,

you when you hire these guys to create so,

41:04

I guess airplane financing means you help people get loans to to buy a plane. And then I think you have, like, a classified section. So people selling,

I guess airplane financing means you help people get loans to to buy a plane. And then I think you have, like, a classified section. So people selling,

41:14

planes. And then now you have the real eight one. I don't know what you've done with the other titles, how you've done the same content to commerce type of play,

planes. And then now you have the real eight one. I don't know what you've done with the other titles, how you've done the same content to commerce type of play,

41:21

but I wanna hear more about what those are. But when you're hiring people to build these businesses on top of an audience, so do you hire how much do you decide to invest in them until

but I wanna hear more about what those are. But when you're hiring people to build these businesses on top of an audience, so do you hire how much do you decide to invest in them until

41:31

They invest in their their new the new business until they're able to make a profit.

They invest in their their new the new business until they're able to make a profit.

41:36

Yeah. We we have a we're pretty patient. I mean, it depends on the business itself. If it's growing and it's finance KPIs, then we'll continue to just board it. You know, every business is different. Obviously, the real estate business has, you know, we haven't broken ground So

Yeah. We we have a we're pretty patient. I mean, it depends on the business itself. If it's growing and it's finance KPIs, then we'll continue to just board it. You know, every business is different. Obviously, the real estate business has, you know, we haven't broken ground So

41:49

that that is gonna take many years to sort of generate a a profit. It has its own sort of journey. The finance business is a finance brokerage business, and it should generate profitability

that that is gonna take many years to sort of generate a a profit. It has its own sort of journey. The finance business is a finance brokerage business, and it should generate profitability

41:59

much quicker than some of the other projects. You know, we buy e commerce businesses. We we now own six e commerce businesses. What are you selling? We own the largest NASA

much quicker than some of the other projects. You know, we buy e commerce businesses. We we now own six e commerce businesses. What are you selling? We own the largest NASA

42:08

or the largest space merch store on the internet called the space store.

or the largest space merch store on the internet called the space store.

42:12

So it's like collectibles

So it's like collectibles

42:14

the aviation nerds and the space nerds or the VIN diagram for both of them is pretty tight. So if you wanna if you want like a model of a rocket,

the aviation nerds and the space nerds or the VIN diagram for both of them is pretty tight. So if you wanna if you want like a model of a rocket,

42:21

or a patch from one of the missions, we we can sell that, whether it's SpaceX or NASA.

or a patch from one of the missions, we we can sell that, whether it's SpaceX or NASA.

42:26

And so what are some of the, like, what what are you gonna do with boating? Are you gonna build a harbor

And so what are some of the, like, what what are you gonna do with boating? Are you gonna build a harbor

42:31

No. I don't think we'll do real estate because I think real estate's a re like,

No. I don't think we'll do real estate because I think real estate's a re like,

42:35

the the arbitrage in aviation

the the arbitrage in aviation

42:37

is that you're taking a piece of land that has

is that you're taking a piece of land that has

42:41

beauty it's a beautiful piece of land,

beauty it's a beautiful piece of land,

42:43

but it's not next to a body of water to build a lake front home. And so essentially what you're doing is you're taking this land and you're arbitraging because the the runway itself is the arbitrage. Right. Right. The fact that pilots wanna be there.

but it's not next to a body of water to build a lake front home. And so essentially what you're doing is you're taking this land and you're arbitraging because the the runway itself is the arbitrage. Right. Right. The fact that pilots wanna be there.

42:56

And so with Boating, it's not as if I could arbitrage

And so with Boating, it's not as if I could arbitrage

43:00

a lakefront property or an oceanfront property. Because that's already awesome. Exactly. And there's the the market's already priced that in accordingly. So for us, we're looking at financing.

a lakefront property or an oceanfront property. Because that's already awesome. Exactly. And there's the the market's already priced that in accordingly. So for us, we're looking at financing.

43:08

We're looking at e commerce. We're looking at another categories that, we think we could be successful. So probably won't be real estate.

We're looking at e commerce. We're looking at another categories that, we think we could be successful. So probably won't be real estate.

43:16

But it will be in other categories that we'll we'll look at commerce. You I think you said forty million that you've raised for this whole thing?

But it will be in other categories that we'll we'll look at commerce. You I think you said forty million that you've raised for this whole thing?

43:23

Yeah. I'd raised. I mean, in between I mean, my father funded

Yeah. I'd raised. I mean, in between I mean, my father funded

43:27

Has invested the money. And so we haven't used outside capital, if you will, sort of, family office. Of that forty, how much have you spent on acquisitions?

Has invested the money. And so we haven't used outside capital, if you will, sort of, family office. Of that forty, how much have you spent on acquisitions?

43:36

No. That's been the predominance of the investment. It's been through M and A. But you're gonna do sixty million in revenue this year. I think on the tweet, you said,

No. That's been the predominance of the investment. It's been through M and A. But you're gonna do sixty million in revenue this year. I think on the tweet, you said,

43:45

ten or fifteen percent profit? It's about to our profit in March was eighteen percent. And we we think we can sustain twenty, and we think ultimately sort of, like,

ten or fifteen percent profit? It's about to our profit in March was eighteen percent. And we we think we can sustain twenty, and we think ultimately sort of, like,

43:56

levels out around thirty percent.

levels out around thirty percent.

43:58

So you could do sixty million in revenue, I think you said. So that means twelve million in profit remember that's a run rate number. So that's not run rate. But, yeah, sixty million and,

So you could do sixty million in revenue, I think you said. So that means twelve million in profit remember that's a run rate number. So that's not run rate. But, yeah, sixty million and,

44:08

revenue ran a little bit over sixty. With twenty percent margins. And then what do you think that would be worth?

revenue ran a little bit over sixty. With twenty percent margins. And then what do you think that would be worth?

44:15

You know, if you look at, sort of public comp that you're probably talking twelve to fifteen times earnings,

You know, if you look at, sort of public comp that you're probably talking twelve to fifteen times earnings,

44:21

is probably what if it was a public our goal is to get to a billion dollars.

is probably what if it was a public our goal is to get to a billion dollars.

44:25

A guy had no plans to sell this business, I I like having cash flow. Same, I do appreciate cash flow. So it's not just taking risk. I actually love cash flow. You know, it's funny he's a venture backed founder.

A guy had no plans to sell this business, I I like having cash flow. Same, I do appreciate cash flow. So it's not just taking risk. I actually love cash flow. You know, it's funny he's a venture backed founder.

44:35

You kinda jealous. You have heard this. You talked about this on your podcast before. Is you get jealous of the cash flow guys? Like, the cash flow guys get jealous of the valuation adventure And the venture guys, almost every founder that I know are super jealous of the cash flow guys because, like, wait, we built this fantastically

You kinda jealous. You have heard this. You talked about this on your podcast before. Is you get jealous of the cash flow guys? Like, the cash flow guys get jealous of the valuation adventure And the venture guys, almost every founder that I know are super jealous of the cash flow guys because, like, wait, we built this fantastically

44:52

high, valued business, but we don't see any of that money. It goes, you know, ultimately until exit. So but you you have both at at this point, but you have so on twelve million in profit,

high, valued business, but we don't see any of that money. It goes, you know, ultimately until exit. So but you you have both at at this point, but you have so on twelve million in profit,

45:04

ten times is is it one twenty?

ten times is is it one twenty?

45:06

Is it, or no, sorry. You said, twelve times. Twelve times. Yeah. I mean, like, you can look at if it was a private trade, probably ten times is a fair number

Is it, or no, sorry. You said, twelve times. Twelve times. Yeah. I mean, like, you can look at if it was a private trade, probably ten times is a fair number

45:13

So the business is worth at sixty million run rate, twelve million profit. I don't I don't know if it's trailing twelve months, revenue, whatever, but roughly a hundred and twenty million to a hundred and eighty million dollars. Yep. I'm sorry. That that's what the business is worth,

So the business is worth at sixty million run rate, twelve million profit. I don't I don't know if it's trailing twelve months, revenue, whatever, but roughly a hundred and twenty million to a hundred and eighty million dollars. Yep. I'm sorry. That that's what the business is worth,

45:26

and you started this in twenty two or twenty twenty one. Twenty one. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. And then you said, I think this is gonna get to a billion in revenue by twenty thirty. Is that what you're saying? And we can do that through both organic and and organic growth. I mean, here's the reality. Is this forty five hundred magazine publishers in there? And, say, there's no exit for these guys. I mean, a lot of them are they're either owned by large corporations,

and you started this in twenty two or twenty twenty one. Twenty one. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. And then you said, I think this is gonna get to a billion in revenue by twenty thirty. Is that what you're saying? And we can do that through both organic and and organic growth. I mean, here's the reality. Is this forty five hundred magazine publishers in there? And, say, there's no exit for these guys. I mean, a lot of them are they're either owned by large corporations,

45:50

which frankly

which frankly

45:52

want to divest their print products because public comps are challenging for them.

want to divest their print products because public comps are challenging for them.

45:57

Or their,

Or their,

45:59

you know, family owned businesses where they've been running the business for multiple generations or perhaps they started it fifty years ago, whatever.

you know, family owned businesses where they've been running the business for multiple generations or perhaps they started it fifty years ago, whatever.

46:06

Don't have to exit. And so we can go find I mean, we're doing a deal right now where it's in a business about a nine and a half revenue.

Don't have to exit. And so we can go find I mean, we're doing a deal right now where it's in a business about a nine and a half revenue.

46:16

About six hundred thousand dollars. And and when you take out all the expenses, all the owner expenses, about six hundred thousand dollars of contribution,

About six hundred thousand dollars. And and when you take out all the expenses, all the owner expenses, about six hundred thousand dollars of contribution,

46:22

we'll we'll pay

we'll we'll pay

46:24

less than one time for that business. And so

less than one time for that business. And so

46:27

there's just not a lot of folks buying in this category.

there's just not a lot of folks buying in this category.

46:30

And ultimately, you're buying the audience. I mean, that's really what it's all about is, yes, we own and generate profit, and that's great in cash flow. But ultimately,

And ultimately, you're buying the audience. I mean, that's really what it's all about is, yes, we own and generate profit, and that's great in cash flow. But ultimately,

46:38

So I like to say we're a private equity

So I like to say we're a private equity

46:40

business meets venture capital because ultimately VCs want the asymmetric hundred ex return.

business meets venture capital because ultimately VCs want the asymmetric hundred ex return.

46:46

We're gonna incubate businesses that can potentially bring those high level returns,

We're gonna incubate businesses that can potentially bring those high level returns,

46:51

but using the audience, which we already

but using the audience, which we already

46:54

And so, I mean, e commerce is never gonna hit that mark, but you have an aircraft finance business. You have a real estate project that very well could, and we'll find other business models as we grow.

And so, I mean, e commerce is never gonna hit that mark, but you have an aircraft finance business. You have a real estate project that very well could, and we'll find other business models as we grow.

47:03

You're basically building a a a a hearse business style company. So, hearst,

You're basically building a a a a hearse business style company. So, hearst,

47:09

have you read the chief, the biography of, William Randolph hearse I have not. You should, man. It's awesome. So William Randolph,

have you read the chief, the biography of, William Randolph hearse I have not. You should, man. It's awesome. So William Randolph,

47:17

he, he had a successful father. His successful father was a minor, I think. Or like,

he, he had a successful father. His successful father was a minor, I think. Or like,

47:23

gold, gold.

gold, gold.

47:25

And in a gambling bet, he won, I think the San Francisco chronicle. And he goes to his son, and he goes,

And in a gambling bet, he won, I think the San Francisco chronicle. And he goes to his son, and he goes,

47:32

Well, William,

Well, William,

47:33

you've got the chronicle. Hopefully, you can make it some into something. You've got a year to to make it not lose money. And so he, he does that. And he does it by creating what's called Yellow Journalism, which is like

you've got the chronicle. Hopefully, you can make it some into something. You've got a year to to make it not lose money. And so he, he does that. And he does it by creating what's called Yellow Journalism, which is like

47:45

clickbait of the late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds.

clickbait of the late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds.

47:49

And he kicks ass, and he crushes it, and he starts buying another thing. Another thing. Another thing. He starts buying all these titles, and he's killing it. He's crushing it. This is like,

And he kicks ass, and he crushes it, and he starts buying another thing. Another thing. Another thing. He starts buying all these titles, and he's killing it. He's crushing it. This is like,

48:00

a cable business before cable where it's recurring revenue subscriptions,

a cable business before cable where it's recurring revenue subscriptions,

48:04

massive margins,

massive margins,

48:05

And then they,

And then they,

48:07

they get so big. So they do a bunch of things. One, they invest in this new sports network called ESPN. So now Hurst owns something like thirty percent or forty percent or fifty percent. I forget the number of ESPN. That's they've made a billion off of that. Then they,

they get so big. So they do a bunch of things. One, they invest in this new sports network called ESPN. So now Hurst owns something like thirty percent or forty percent or fifty percent. I forget the number of ESPN. That's they've made a billion off of that. Then they,

48:22

buy,

buy,

48:23

fit finch ratings, I think, which is a data business, which is exactly what you're at. And they start buying all this stuff. At this point, Hurst is owned by the family, It's one of the largest family owned businesses in America.

fit finch ratings, I think, which is a data business, which is exactly what you're at. And they start buying all this stuff. At this point, Hurst is owned by the family, It's one of the largest family owned businesses in America.

48:35

They own this massive building and right in the heart of New York City. My in laws live literally fight. Like, I'm on my,

They own this massive building and right in the heart of New York City. My in laws live literally fight. Like, I'm on my,

48:43

wife's, like, bedroom that she, like, grew up at, and I can, like, reach out the window and touch, like, the hearse building And I remember that was funny because I almost sold my company to them, and I was, like, sleeping in that room when I was visiting New York City. And, anyway, they own this massive building that I don't think they got a loan on. I think they own this, like, multi billion dollar building. They own a ranch in, like, Wyoming or something like that. They own everything, and it's owned by this family. And it's kinda sick, and it's been around for a hundred years. That's sort of what you're you're doing. Yeah. Hertz is amazing because it's ten ten billion or twelve billion of revenue. No debt. Like, that's what's pretty astounding about a hurtz. Not even on the real estate. They they they're they're no debt. They actually have a very large venture capital portfolio there. They're an investor in freightways, by the way. So that's Well, so you know all about them. I'm I met I forget who I met with there, but I learned a lot about them, but they're like older guys. They're like they wear suits. They're like the Mademen era where they like, you know, so it would have been a bad fit. But that's what you're building, and it's awesome.

wife's, like, bedroom that she, like, grew up at, and I can, like, reach out the window and touch, like, the hearse building And I remember that was funny because I almost sold my company to them, and I was, like, sleeping in that room when I was visiting New York City. And, anyway, they own this massive building that I don't think they got a loan on. I think they own this, like, multi billion dollar building. They own a ranch in, like, Wyoming or something like that. They own everything, and it's owned by this family. And it's kinda sick, and it's been around for a hundred years. That's sort of what you're you're doing. Yeah. Hertz is amazing because it's ten ten billion or twelve billion of revenue. No debt. Like, that's what's pretty astounding about a hurtz. Not even on the real estate. They they they're they're no debt. They actually have a very large venture capital portfolio there. They're an investor in freightways, by the way. So that's Well, so you know all about them. I'm I met I forget who I met with there, but I learned a lot about them, but they're like older guys. They're like they wear suits. They're like the Mademen era where they like, you know, so it would have been a bad fit. But that's what you're building, and it's awesome.

49:42

Look, I think media businesses are underappreciated.

Look, I think media businesses are underappreciated.

49:45

I, like, I think what's happened is the, you know, hearst, doing the hearst is they own a bunch of newspapers as well. But I think what we're seeing now is this, if you own a

I, like, I think what's happened is the, you know, hearst, doing the hearst is they own a bunch of newspapers as well. But I think what we're seeing now is this, if you own a

49:55

strong sort of thesis around a media asset,

strong sort of thesis around a media asset,

49:59

And you can build products that take that audience.

And you can build products that take that audience.

50:02

That's ultimately the playbook. It's like, I we have these audiences.

That's ultimately the playbook. It's like, I we have these audiences.

50:06

They love the content.

They love the content.

50:08

They're subscribing and paying for a product, which is a print magazine or a digital,

They're subscribing and paying for a product, which is a print magazine or a digital,

50:13

experience.

experience.

50:14

They're already the audience. We can offer them products and services that they now would buy anyways.

They're already the audience. We can offer them products and services that they now would buy anyways.

50:19

Yeah. That sounds like when you say that, I'm like, yeah, that's so obvious, but like everyone, not everyone. A lot of people have tried this.

Yeah. That sounds like when you say that, I'm like, yeah, that's so obvious, but like everyone, not everyone. A lot of people have tried this.

50:26

Few have succeeded.

Few have succeeded.

50:28

Hodenky, I think, is succeeding. There might be a couple others,

Hodenky, I think, is succeeding. There might be a couple others,

50:32

but, like, when Buzzfeed says they're gonna do it, it's shit. It never works out. I think it doesn't work because they have, like,

but, like, when Buzzfeed says they're gonna do it, it's shit. It never works out. I think it doesn't work because they have, like,

50:38

a committee deciding on these things, whereas you could be a bit more of a, kind of a monarch where you're like, this is what we're gonna do. Well, I I think Buzzfeed along with a lot of other publishers have sold out to programmatic

a committee deciding on these things, whereas you could be a bit more of a, kind of a monarch where you're like, this is what we're gonna do. Well, I I think Buzzfeed along with a lot of other publishers have sold out to programmatic

50:50

and and have relied upon the the the platforms, the Facebook and the And no one really, like, loves them too much. I mean, what is buzzfeed anyways? It's like Yeah. There's, like, no like and I think the difference is that we're folk, we're buying magazines

and and have relied upon the the the platforms, the Facebook and the And no one really, like, loves them too much. I mean, what is buzzfeed anyways? It's like Yeah. There's, like, no like and I think the difference is that we're folk, we're buying magazines

51:05

and media properties that had been around for decades where the audience, like, the people

and media properties that had been around for decades where the audience, like, the people

51:11

talk about their father or the grandfather. They, you know, reading trains magazine or Model railroad or or

talk about their father or the grandfather. They, you know, reading trains magazine or Model railroad or or

51:18

or flying. Like, they they they it has a a lot of affinity to it. And then effectively, we just have to find services.

or flying. Like, they they they it has a a lot of affinity to it. And then effectively, we just have to find services.

51:26

So we make money in media, But then we have to find services that we can offer on top of that.

So we make money in media, But then we have to find services that we can offer on top of that.

51:31

How many hours a week you're working?

How many hours a week you're working?

51:34

You know, I don't count out my hours. Are you thinking you but, like, maybe, like, a normal nine to five, forty hour week? No. I mean, I I I do when I wake up, six in the morning because my kids wake me up till

You know, I don't count out my hours. Are you thinking you but, like, maybe, like, a normal nine to five, forty hour week? No. I mean, I I I do when I wake up, six in the morning because my kids wake me up till

51:45

midnight. I'm pretty much either with my kids or

midnight. I'm pretty much either with my kids or

51:49

or working on the businesses.

or working on the businesses.

51:51

That's not work to me, man. Like, like, I

That's not work to me, man. Like, like, I

51:55

to me, this isn't work. These are

to me, this isn't work. These are

51:58

this is a game and ways. I mean, I But you're still you're in grind mode. It's not like this is all, like, awesome. You're like beach.

this is a game and ways. I mean, I But you're still you're in grind mode. It's not like this is all, like, awesome. You're like beach.

52:04

Like, I I do it to myself too. Like, I end up getting overwhelmed, but then I'm like, hey, help me up myself to blame. What's your goal to you wanna be a billionaire. You wanna just do cool shit. You wanna create something that lasts for a hundred years. What's what what No. I mean, one of the reasons I like media businesses because you're you're always learning something new and you get intellectually stimulated by a new challenge. It's a new audience. It's an it's a new product. I don't know. To me, it's You don't want all the power, fame, sex, and drugs that comes with owning space magazine dot com.

Like, I I do it to myself too. Like, I end up getting overwhelmed, but then I'm like, hey, help me up myself to blame. What's your goal to you wanna be a billionaire. You wanna just do cool shit. You wanna create something that lasts for a hundred years. What's what what No. I mean, one of the reasons I like media businesses because you're you're always learning something new and you get intellectually stimulated by a new challenge. It's a new audience. It's an it's a new product. I don't know. To me, it's You don't want all the power, fame, sex, and drugs that comes with owning space magazine dot com.

52:36

Trains magazine is gonna give me a enormous amount of power. Yeah. Our model rail rider?

Trains magazine is gonna give me a enormous amount of power. Yeah. Our model rail rider?

52:41

No. It's not that at all.

No. It's not that at all.

52:42

And it's not even the wealth. It's more of the chase. It's the it's the putting up the score in some ways of solving problems and learning about a a different I mean, I we have a business that I paid ten thousand dollars for it. It's called Aero Swag. It's an e commerce business.

And it's not even the wealth. It's more of the chase. It's the it's the putting up the score in some ways of solving problems and learning about a a different I mean, I we have a business that I paid ten thousand dollars for it. It's called Aero Swag. It's an e commerce business.

52:56

It it will do

It it will do

52:58

hundred thousand dollars this year. That is I spend more time on that business proportionally than any other one just because I think it's cool. The print on demand t shirt shop for for Violet.

hundred thousand dollars this year. That is I spend more time on that business proportionally than any other one just because I think it's cool. The print on demand t shirt shop for for Violet.

53:08

I frankly should not be spending that much as much time as I do, but I enjoy the to me, it's a hobby. It's a tinkering kind of thing. I bet it feels awesome to

I frankly should not be spending that much as much time as I do, but I enjoy the to me, it's a hobby. It's a tinkering kind of thing. I bet it feels awesome to

53:18

Make your dad regret firing you.

Make your dad regret firing you.

53:20

It was fun proving that I could make it work, but I had a lot of that. I mean, a lot of doubters when we first started the business. Yeah. Look, behind most successful people is a girlfriend or boyfriend that broke up with him or

It was fun proving that I could make it work, but I had a lot of that. I mean, a lot of doubters when we first started the business. Yeah. Look, behind most successful people is a girlfriend or boyfriend that broke up with him or

53:30

a father who said no. Yeah. That made like one rude comment or like in my case, it was a a media executive who, like,

a father who said no. Yeah. That made like one rude comment or like in my case, it was a a media executive who, like,

53:37

he, like, half hazardly, like, in passing, was, like, man, these newsletters will never make more than a million dollars a year. And, like, I was like, you motherfucker.

he, like, half hazardly, like, in passing, was, like, man, these newsletters will never make more than a million dollars a year. And, like, I was like, you motherfucker.

53:47

And you thought about that every day. Right? Every day. And I see this guy on sitting at floor seats at the Knicks, and I'm like, you son of a bitch. So I would say the best thing to give a founder is an anime. So and Freeways, I had a guy. He was a he was a CEO of our largest competitor.

And you thought about that every day. Right? Every day. And I see this guy on sitting at floor seats at the Knicks, and I'm like, you son of a bitch. So I would say the best thing to give a founder is an anime. So and Freeways, I had a guy. He was a he was a CEO of our largest competitor.

54:05

And

And

54:06

He really pissed me off because he told me I couldn't couldn't compete against them. You're like, I use I like to see you try whatever products.

He really pissed me off because he told me I couldn't couldn't compete against them. You're like, I use I like to see you try whatever products.

54:13

And I I woke up every day thinking about him, but he got fired And I tell you, the motivation,

And I I woke up every day thinking about him, but he got fired And I tell you, the motivation,

54:17

it wasn't as fun anymore because I needed him to be the guy. All of a sudden, the company became nice to me. And it was like, no, I wanted assholes.

it wasn't as fun anymore because I needed him to be the guy. All of a sudden, the company became nice to me. And it was like, no, I wanted assholes.

54:27

Like, please go back to being assholes because it, like, if I wake up more slightly more motivated every day. I was like that with the founders of morning brew. I was like, I wanna kill you. I'm like, if I see you in public, I'm I wanna, like, get a fight. Now they're, like, my they're family to me. They're, like, my best friends. Well, you you are doing a your, hosting a pot one of the podcasts on their platforms.

Like, please go back to being assholes because it, like, if I wake up more slightly more motivated every day. I was like that with the founders of morning brew. I was like, I wanna kill you. I'm like, if I see you in public, I'm I wanna, like, get a fight. Now they're, like, my they're family to me. They're, like, my best friends. Well, you you are doing a your, hosting a pot one of the podcasts on their platforms.

54:48

You know, people say,

You know, people say,

54:51

you know, don't don't be hateful towards this person. And in my head, I'm like, your rage is like the greatest fuel ever. It completely.

you know, don't don't be hateful towards this person. And in my head, I'm like, your rage is like the greatest fuel ever. It completely.

54:59

I don't, you know, someone was telling me, if you got hate in your heart, let it out. I'm like, no, I'm burying that deep, let it go in nowhere. Let's feel I need that. And, Sam, you know, it's also it's good for the team. Because if they also have the hatred of the enemy,

I don't, you know, someone was telling me, if you got hate in your heart, let it out. I'm like, no, I'm burying that deep, let it go in nowhere. Let's feel I need that. And, Sam, you know, it's also it's good for the team. Because if they also have the hatred of the enemy,

55:13

then they will they'll go much further and and fight harder than if than if you don't.

then they will they'll go much further and and fight harder than if than if you don't.

55:19

Yeah. I love that. And it's sort of like a sport where you know, like,

Yeah. I love that. And it's sort of like a sport where you know, like,

55:24

once once the whistle blows, you're, like, anything goes, but once the game's over. Like, it's like, alright, you nothing but love, nothing but respect. But while we're in between those the the lines, like, we're getting after it, Yeah. Exactly. And so I think it's good. Dude, thanks for doing this. Yep. You're doing it. Craig Fuller. That's the pod.

once once the whistle blows, you're, like, anything goes, but once the game's over. Like, it's like, alright, you nothing but love, nothing but respect. But while we're in between those the the lines, like, we're getting after it, Yeah. Exactly. And so I think it's good. Dude, thanks for doing this. Yep. You're doing it. Craig Fuller. That's the pod.

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