00:00
What, what do you do with your money? You know, you got a ranch. Yeah.
00:04
I think you live there. But he he he's had that forever. That I mean, that was, like, my half that that so it's it's not like it wasn't like a hot, like, a luxury property or whatever. It's like Kanye having a ranch in Wyoming. You actually live there because you wanted to live there. Sam Sam, I think, has some some similar aspirations.
00:21
But what do you do? Are you, like, I'm an investor, you just do something boring, your money? What do what do you do with it? Yeah.
00:27
Well, I I spent a lot of it on this bookstore.
00:30
I I I bought two buildings in this in this small town of Bastrope.
00:34
Originally, there's gonna be a bookstore in a coffee shop. Now it's a bookstore and I rent out half of it to a, a record store. But I wanted I needed, like, a space to do all my stuff So up top is like my office. My wife also wanted me to take all my books out of our house.
00:48
So, that that was part of it. It was like getting all the the shit out.
00:52
No, I don't really do anything. I don't really do anything with it. I I invest it.
00:57
I'm I like investing in things
01:00
that are very different than internet things. So most of it's, like, in income producing real things.
01:18
How do you describe yourself? You know, I
01:21
don't do it very well.
01:23
You you you nail I I would sort of if I had to say, what do I identify as? I would say I identify I as a writer, and then I I sort of have these other things that I do in
01:33
that are somewhat related and somewhat unrelated.
01:36
But, like, if I had to sort of only pick one thing or, like, what what do I feel like? I was, like, meant to do. It's it's writing. So I identify first as that.
01:46
Sean, do you remember this? Did I ever show you this coin I used to carry around? I I would have it with me a lot, particularly in the old San Francisco office. I had a coin. You remember face of you? No. I've never never seen your coin. What are you gonna do? There's two face of me.
01:59
No, it was it said, what did it say? Momentus? Mento boys. Say Ryan?
02:03
Yeah. Which means, like, you're you're gonna die. You only live once. Right? Otherwise, don't you love that? Sam carried it around for years. Doesn't know what it says on it.
02:11
Momentous.
02:12
It's
02:13
I knew that it meant, like, you're, like, you have to live today. Like, you're gonna die. Yes.
02:19
Right?
02:20
And,
02:21
I was thinking about it. I bought one for twenty six dollars, and I was thinking about it. I was like, this is the greatest business of all time. I just bought a
02:30
Like a fake coin from Ryan for twenty six dollars. He cost him it was just probably a post, like, a stamp just to mail it to me, so only fifty cents. There's not gonna be any returns. There's no it's one size fits all, and it made me happy. And I carried it around. And I I was like, this is the is that the greatest business of all time selling coins? It's it's been in it's been in a nice business better than the publishing business. Right? Like, what's interesting about books is, like, like, the the new book. So you spend two years of your life writing something. It's like sixty thousand words.
02:59
You have to, you know, the publisher's taking managing all of it. So, you know, they're they're the middle man and all of it. But, like, that book is twenty six dollars. And people if if that book was thirty two dollars, people would be upset. Because there's, like, a a sense of what a book should be. Right? Like, this is what people are willing to pay. And regardless of how good the book is or Exactly. Something of this shape, I pay either nine dollars, thirteen dollars, or twenty six dollars. Right. And so one of the things,
03:28
as as daily stoat which I started as this email list became
03:32
sort of, big. If the idea was like, okay, are we gonna advertise,
03:37
are we gonna monetize this via advertising
03:39
or are we gonna, like, is there stuff we can sell that, you know, makes it a business
03:45
to pay for itself? And,
03:47
as we were thinking about stuff you could do because I came from the apparel business before I was a writer.
03:54
I was like, we are not doing t shirts. Under no circumstances, are we doing t shirts? First off, because t shirts,
04:01
are, like, are, you know,
04:03
it's kinda cheap, you know, but t shirts are the worst business you can do. So, like, bands become popular. People build a brand. The first thing they always think is t shirts.
04:12
But what I remember is just how fucking complicated t shirts are. First off, because you have to get someone to make them. But if you sell one t shirt, that's already at a minimum, three skews, right, small, medium, large. If you wanna do extra large and, and, extra small. Okay. Now five skews, And then you're like, okay, we're gonna do white, then we're gonna do black. So now you have ten SKUs. Right? And it's in and then then they don't fit. There's quality control issues. All so I was like, we're not doing shirts and also like shirts.
04:42
Even though all of that, people will only pay a certain amount for shirt because we don't value it as a thing. So
04:48
I was think I I was like, I wanna make something that's better margins
04:52
that's less work, all of that I was just really thinking about it. And then one day I was at the airport, I was at the Austin airport, and I was thinking about this idea of Momentumore, which is, like, if you look in a lot of old, like, renaissance paintings,
05:05
philosopher always has a skull on its on his desk.
05:09
And so there was a as a philosophical genre of, like, reminders of mortality, and I was, like, it would be really cool to have a reminder of that. What would that be? I was like, well, I could get a tattoo. And then I was like, oh, I don't really wanna get a tattoo. And, so I was like, what could I have? And and the idea of the coin popped into my head, and it turned out to be really cool. We actually used this mint in, Minnesota that invented the the alcoholic's anonymous chip, like, that you get it, like, ten years or twenty years. So,
05:37
They've been in business since eighteen eighty eight.
05:42
Wow. That's crazy. I think I think we're their biggest customer now.
05:47
And, that also is a really cool business that I've been fascinated with. But, yeah, that was a that was a close. I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you about the mix. A mint in a second, because I have another mint that I think you're gonna get a kick out of. But do you, can you reveal how many of those coins we sell a year or do not talk about? I don't wanna say exactly how many, but at, like, ten tens of thousands.
06:07
It's,
06:08
a a lot of them. And and people, like, I'm giving a talk in marble falls,
06:13
next week. And,
06:15
like, they bought one for each of the attendees. So it it also became it's a really cool way to, like, What I'm interested in is not, like, Chachkis or, like, just random ass merchandise,
06:25
but, like, what our fill is what our physical manifestations
06:31
of the ideas that I talk about that could actually provide
06:36
value in some way. So, like, I have I have this this one on my desk, but then the other one, that I have this for my other this is this one says tempest fugate, which means time flies This is like a parenting one. It's just a reminder that, like, to be present as a parent.
06:49
So I I kind of start with stuff that would be helpful to me And then if if it works for other people, it's good. I do think entrepreneurs
06:59
tend to
07:00
think about
07:01
digital products first and not physical products that have good margins.
07:06
And this so that's been really cool.
07:08
Well, how much does a coin cost you? A dollar? More than that. Because more than that, and then there's also packaging and all that all that kind of stuff. But,
07:18
But, yeah, it's I'll I'll just say it's it's a good it's a good margin.
07:22
But,
07:23
but, yeah, it's a good, not as good as a digital product, but good enough.
07:28
That business, I feel like,
07:32
you know, I have this phrase. You, you know, you you are what you Meyer, which is like, if you admire things enough, you you end up moving in that direction. Yep. And that's a type of business that I've really, like, the thing, the the little thing you just said,
07:44
gets, like, the highest amount of respect for me. Like, okay. Elon can send a rocket to Mars. You know, Steve Jobs can fucking, you know, where's Turtle and I can do his thing.
07:54
But an entrepreneur who says, well, I wanted to create I realized interest in stoicism, so I created this free thing to give it away, and I didn't know what the business would be. The traditional model doesn't really work ads.
08:04
It would, like, you know, how kind of shitty would a stoicism newsletter be if it was just plastered with ads.
08:10
But I did it anyways betting on myself that I'll figure it out. And then I figured it out first by having my little framework of, like, what's a thing that represents this belief that has high margins that has low headache,
08:21
Like, I have a DDC business with over, like, three thousand SKUs. So when you're saying that, my body's just, like, you know, inside, just shriveling up and dying.
08:28
And I'm like, oh, wow. What how amazing would it be if I had one SKU that was just high margin? And, like, I could just make that SKU amazing.
08:36
So hearing you pull that off
08:38
and,
08:40
you know, the way it kind of, like, Sam has it and people at the conference buy it. To me, that's, like, you know, top level respect because,
08:47
the creativity that that requires and the thoughtfulness that that requires is,
08:51
kind of amazing. I think most people would just kind of declare creative bankruptcy and say, I don't know. I don't know how to figure it out and just never never do. This is why I think Shopify is gonna be, like, the biggest company in the world because they have, like, let people do that. Do you know what I mean? Like, you you just come up with an idea, and then, you know, it plugs into a third party warehouse. Although, I have a fulfillment center here in Austin where I do some of the stuff out of the bookstore, but just, like, that you can just come up with stuff and make it and sell it to people is is to me is gonna unlock, like, so much potential. And part of the reason I'm able to have the books to, like, a physical
09:21
space
09:26
is that because most of what I sell online can subsidize,
09:30
like, in person retail also.
09:34
Right. Sean, have you heard of the this story is gonna come full circle, not till the end. Have you heard of Stewart Resnick Stewart Resnick? No. Alright. I bet you've heard of Oh, I think I know this guy. They own the pistachio company. Right? Yes. So when you go to the store and it Juice or whatever. Yeah. They own this it's a privately owned company. It's probably one of the large
09:52
Linda and Stewart Resnick. It's probably one of the largest, privately owned companies in America. They do multi billions in revenue his he started, like, a security business that he sold, and he got some money. And then now he owns palm, one like, the the drink, palm drink, he owns,
10:08
pistachios and a bunch of stuff. Anyway, he one of his first businesses after he sold his security company, made a little bit of money. He bought this thing called the Franklin Mint.
10:17
And the Franklin meant I knew I knew Ryan. I knew you're gonna know what this was. And the Franklin mint basically started out by selling coins. Eventually,
10:25
they expanded to a bunch of other collectibles, but they started selling coins. And up until somewhat recently, they are one of the largest, I think, advertisers of digital and, not digital,
10:36
print media. And so, like, if you would open up a magazine, like, a USA, like, a TV and news guide, like, the got things. They were always selling coins, and it was Franklin Mint, and he, sold it for, like, two or three hundred million dollars when he was done with And you know who bought it recently was Ty Lopez. Oh, wow. Didn't he buy radio shack also?
10:55
And a bunch of shit. He's bought so much stuff. Hold on. I'm I'm kinda stupid. What these mint? Okay. Is the mint literally a coin factory? So they take metal and they shape it into a coin of your choosing, and then they
11:08
they sell it, or they they, you know, they provide it to to you who sells it. Is that the idea? Is it coin factory? Is that what a mint is? Yeah. Although the Franklin admin is, like, commemorative
11:18
quarters and dollars and stuff. Right? But they don't but but they do, like, they do, like, a print
11:24
No. But, yes, they do. But they got actually sued because they use, like, a princess Diana coin.
11:29
Or they've done, like, like, don't know. Like, some, like, famous ish person that, like, middle American moms, like, care about. You can buy, like, a coin with their face off.
11:39
Interesting. I've met this guy who has a very interesting path that, like, intertwines with the silk road and other things.
11:46
And,
11:47
he had said something, like, he's like, yeah. What I'm doing now is I'm buying these email lists of, like, hundreds of millions of people, like, the, you know, like, the leaked
11:56
Madison breed or whatever. What it was not Madison breed. What's the Ashley Madison?
12:01
Yeah. Yeah. Email list for, like, LinkedIn got hacked. Cool. I'll take all those emails. And, like, you can't you can't really even send to that big of a list. It's, like, too dirty, and you'll get, like, banned or whatever. But he, like, had some, like, expertise on how to send mass emails. And he I was, like, what are you gonna do with this? Like, you start a new thing, and he's like, oh, no. I'm just gonna find people who like Trump, and I'm a sell them coins.
12:22
I'm gonna sell coins and hats to trump fans. And I was like, I was like, wow. And he's like, yeah, like, if point two percent of my list, point o two percent of my list, I would ever ever convert
12:33
like, you know, I'll just make millions of dollars passively sending these emails. And I was like, wow. This is the the one of the craziest business plans I've ever heard. There's an argument that news basically exists
12:44
for the sake of, like, reverse mortgages, gold coins, and other forms of
12:49
grift.
12:50
Like, you if you watch Fox News just the commercials,
12:53
you get a sense of, like,
12:56
just how dumb the audience is, to be perfectly honest, And then you realize why the content, it's almost as if, like, I heard this great thing about spam. They were saying, like, like, you know, you get an email from, like, a Nigerian scammer and you're like, oh, this is obviously spam. That's because it's not for you. Right? It's for someone who's dumb enough to to not be bothered by how all the red flags that are there. And so even further, it's,
13:21
they want people who after they get scammed, won't really know how to, like, have any recourse. Yeah. So they they won't be able to get back at you. And so they they filter out all the people who have, like, lawyers. Yeah. And so when you watch Fox News and you get the sense, oh, this exists to create the kind of customer
13:37
that would fall for these, like, obscenely high margin, almost criminal enterprises
13:43
I know this is an exaggeration. What but but, like, right on this side of what's legal or not businesses
13:50
that tend to exploit not very smart or savvy people. That's why the content is what it is, is to set up the commercial break where people won't buy real things. When you turn on pretty much any other form of entertainment,
14:03
you're not seeing those advertisers because Right. You're that's not who it's appealing.
14:08
It reminds me of in India, and I wanna do a deep dive on this at some point, but there's, like, India has this culture of gurus. Right? So, like, in first, in terms of gods, we have, like, whatever, fifty gods. So the and then the then the gods all have, like, their gurus and this, like, kind of, like, the saints type of people who give, you know, genuinely good advice, but then they also kind of like do magic tricks in your, like, to show that they're, like, you know, you know, the the the man of god. It's like he can produce something in his hand, but it's, like, literally an illusion,
14:36
like, a magic trick.
14:38
But the way they work is they have this, like, virtue virtuous brand of being this person who only wears their white robe and they, like, don't have any material possessions, whatever. But when you go to visit them and people I mean, there's, like, miles, long lines,
14:53
like, going, wait, like, crawling up mountains. Literally, they crawl to show their devotion to get to this person's, thing. And then you donate your gold chains. You donate, like, gold. And so these guys inevitably
15:04
get raided by the government because they pay no taxes and they, like, you know, are involved in crimes. And they go they find, like,
15:11
tons of gold, literally, like, the physical, the measurement
15:15
tons of gold in their house, And they have, like, the and then they'll, like, license these, like, chip brands and, like, popcorn brands and stuff like that. And it's, like, the face of this guru, but he's selling, like, you know, potato chips. Dude, Vikram yoga, Vikram yoga had ketchup, I think. Yeah. It's crazy. Wow. Yeah. No. It's, it's it's,
15:34
It's very strange,
15:36
once you get into sort of the back end of how some of this stuff works. Do you know anyone Ryan who's outselling you in
15:42
terms of coins. It's selling more coins. No. I mean, I do sometimes wonder, like, when when,
15:47
when we order, like, we'll order, like, you know, a bunch of the coins from the from the mint which is in Minneapolis. And they'll be like, oh, no. We're really backed up. Like, sorry. Your order will be, like, in a couple weeks or whatever. And so I'm always like, who is in a who is ahead of me?
16:02
But but there there is I mean, so so I was thinking about it, like, I was thinking, like, okay, I wanted a reminder of Memento mori, and then I thought coin.
16:12
And and it it didn't occur to me because I had a bunch of them already. So I was probably but there is a a genre of there's a a thing called a challenge coin that, like, the military gives out or police officers give out or firefighters give out, Sometimes it's like a commemoration, like, you visited this place. But, like, if you did, like, you know, this tour of duty and operation enduring freedom or whatever, Like, they'll they'll often give you challenge when. So I think a lot of them are, like, government clients or,
16:44
like, you know, nonprofits are organization. There there's like that. But, like, I could get them done. Like, we're talking about margins. They would be much cheaper for me to make them in in large books, like, from China.
16:56
But but we haven't done that. We've always used this this original place.
17:00
I wanted to do made in USA, but then and then as it happened during the pandemic, it was great because it was like we never ran out of stock of any of our products is everything we sell is is made in the US.
17:13
That's awesome. Now, Brian, I wanted to ask you because you've done a bunch of Okay. So you're a a your college dropout. Correct?
17:20
You,
17:21
you worked for Tucker Max. You consulted with Tucker Max. Robert Green, who's the kind of forty eight laws of power or whatever.
17:28
You've written a bunch of books. You've you own a independent bookshop. You got your coin business. You sell courses, all that. You've done a bunch of different things. Okay. So I wanted to play a little game
17:38
just to get to know you game.
17:40
And,
17:41
and it's called first worst best best last words. Okay. And, basically, it's on job. Okay. So what was the first job. And it doesn't have to be like a job. It could be like a side hustle you had. So what's the first kind of dollar you earn? I worked at a I worked at a deli, at a grocery store called OBex in
17:57
in Homewood, California, right on Lake Tahoe.
18:01
And what were you doing at the time? Like, making sandwiches, and I worked in the stuff. Like, just like a, like, a Just a kid. I was fifth fifteen. Fifteen sixteen. Yeah. Fifteen.
18:10
You know, just, like, six dollars an hour of whatever minimum wage was, in California then. Just, you know, Kate who worked at a little little small town grocery. And what what was it like? Cause you, okay, you make six dollars an hour. I don't know how many hours you're working, but you wind up with, like, you know, a couple hundred bucks after, you know, a couple weeks. That's a lot of money to a kid. Do you remember, like, what you did with the money or how you felt about that that amount of money at that time? I don't you know what? I don't remember what I I was super into snowboarding, so I probably bought a snowboard or something.
18:39
But,
18:40
yeah, it occurred to me the other day. I was just thinking about this. I basically worked nonstop since fifteen years old. Like,
18:46
then I worked at I worked at Wendy's after that. If I remember correctly, that was a lifeguard. So I've had, like, a bazillion jobs, but that was That was the first one. And then, like, I feel like at age, like, eighteen or nineteen or something stupid, you're, like, the boss of American apparel or something like just like something ridiculous or, like, at eighteen, you, like, worked for Robert Green riding forty eight laws of power. Well, forty eight laws of power came out when I was,
19:09
like, eleven years old. But,
19:12
so not not exactly. But,
19:14
I did. I started working for Robert when I was twenty,
19:17
And then I was, the director of marketing and American apparel, like, in my in my early twenties.
19:22
So so you when you dropped out, you dropped out because what? You just hate school or you had something you wanted. No. I liked school, but I wanted to be a writer. And so I I had this. I was going to UC Riverside. So, I was I was working for Tucker who was, at that point, one of the first bloggers to to have a book deal.
19:39
So I was, like, I was working for him doing, like, marketing and online stuff. And then he got me a job at a talent agency,
19:46
where
19:47
I did, like Yikes, I could not see you fitting in there. Yeah. I was like answering phones in stuff, but I worked on, like, new media. Like, so this is right. Like, YouTube had just sold. So everyone's sort of interested in internet talent. So that's what I was working on. And then,
20:03
the summer I was at the end of that summer that I was working there, I was supposed to go back into college. And within one week,
20:10
I got an offer
20:12
to to stay on at the talent agency to to I was working for this movie producer there, to be his assistant,
20:18
And then,
20:19
I've met Robert Green, and Robert Green needed a research assistant on a book he was writing called the fiftieth law. And so,
20:27
Why did all these people like you? Why did Tucker hire you when you're eighteen? What did you what did you do to get hired by him? Because at that time, he's writing, basically, like, funny
20:36
dating stories and sex stories. Right? Like, that was, like, his blog at the time, if I remember correctly. I think I was very young, very ambitious very hardworking. And I was just obsessed with the internet, like, what, what this sort of
20:47
internet culture would become.
20:50
And I've loved books. Like, I just I've always loved books. And so I I think they sense that I wanted to be
20:56
a writer
20:57
and
20:59
taste or I sort of went under their wing as like an apprentice
21:02
in,
21:04
you know, how how to do how to do what they did.
21:07
Did you just cold email them? So when I I met Tucker because I was writing for the college newspaper, and I wrote an article about him, which is what I was doing. I would write articles about people. In the way that now, you'd be like, oh, I wanna meet this person, will you come on my podcast? Right?
21:23
But but this is before podcast. So I would just interview people and write articles about So that's how I met Tucker. I was a huge Robert Green fan, so I met Robert through,
21:32
through Tucker. And then the talent agency,
21:36
the guy
21:37
who I worked for was producing a movie about Tucker's book, first book. So they're all sort of connected. And then it was through Robert Green that I met Doug Charlie, who was the director of or who was the founder of American apparel. So it all kind of was all swirling about each other.
21:54
And what was the first kinda like personal hustle he did? Right? You're helping Tucker achieve his goals. You're helping Robert Green achieve his goals. You're helping the talent agency find talent. When did Ryan go into business for Ryan? That's a good question.
22:07
I don't know what, like, the first
22:09
thing I would have
22:11
I mean, I started my marketing company in two thousand
22:14
eleven when I was writing my first book, but I think the the first big bet I made on myself was
22:21
I mean, I've done other, like, little stuff,
22:25
before, but the first bay I in two thousand eleven,
22:28
I basically quit at American apparel to go write what was, my first book. Trust me. I'm lying. So that was, like, the first big bet on myself.
22:37
And that was a hit. I mean, that was that was pretty it it seemed like it took off already. It got a ton. I sold it for a good chunk of money for for at least to me then.
22:46
It got a ton of attention. It
22:49
ironically, it will it sold well, but it will earn it will probably earn out its advance.
22:56
By this summer, which will be the tenth anniversary
22:59
of it, like, by the
23:01
the the I'm it's looking like the the royalty statement, I will get in July of twenty twenty two, which will be the ten year anniversary of the book. It will finally go from positive to positive
23:14
on the advance statement.
23:17
What was your advance? I was
23:19
two fifth
23:20
it two fifty.
23:22
It was I think it was two hundred with some incentives.
23:25
Although when I announced it,
23:27
I announced that it had been sold for five hundred thousand dollars because I know I knew people didn't nobody actually fact checks press releases.
23:35
So,
23:36
trust me, so so the whole point of the book was to prove that, like, the problems I was talking about in the in the media system in the book were real. So I I promptly,
23:47
doubled the advance when I announced it and, and, nobody nobody checked.
23:52
That's funny. Did you,
23:54
so you got a big advance. You didn't have that big of a following at that time. How did you finagle a any advance, let alone, like, a quarter million dollar advance or your first So the bet on myself was that I I left and I wrote the book first. Almost all nonfiction
24:09
is sold,
24:11
with a proposal,
24:12
and then you go write the book. But I didn't I didn't necessarily need to do that. So I wrote the book. So I had
24:18
what was,
24:19
like, I had I had a it's like I had a good piece of property. Like, I I wrote something Oh, yeah. That was, like, unlike all the other books at that time,
24:28
that, I don't think really there's been that many books like it or that I would maybe,
24:33
chaos monkeys would be another, like, similar book that I I'd sort of which I thought was good.
24:38
But but so I sold it that way. So I I wrote it so that I had it. But it was mostly just all the authors that I knew I sort of got in, because I I'd worked for Tucker. I'd worked for Robert.
24:49
I'd worked for Tim Farris at that point. So I had a pretty good sort of roll a deck of people
24:55
who got me in the door when I when I sold that book.
24:59
Are you still doing the deals now? Those type of deals now with all your latest book, or are you self publishing? I'm still at the same publisher, actually. I've done all my books with the same publisher.
25:10
I've self published
25:12
a children's book, and then I've self published
25:15
two high end editions
25:18
of
25:19
traditionally published books that I have. Like, I have a leather edition of,
25:23
the daily stoic and the obstacle is the way. But other than that, everything's been traditionally published. I guess I own the audio rights. Why does that? Because, like,
25:31
from the outside, you know, I think a lot of entrepreneurs feel this way. It's like, publishing, you know, record labels and book published it's all just middlemen and they're they take advantage and the author sees a little, you know, blah, blah, blah. And someone like you, you have a A lot of business sense. B. Yeah. Now have a track record. C, you have an independent audience you could sell to.
25:53
So there must be some reason that you say no, actually, people don't get it that you do wanna publish it for these reasons. I look at it on a a case by case basis. You're just you're really doing the math.
26:04
Will,
26:05
will the what they're paying for it plus the royalty,
26:10
what what are you
26:12
thinking you will earn, you know, in a short amount of time or, you know, in a certain amount of time? So I I just do the math on each project. So every time I think about a book, just because I have a publisher, if, obviously, no one was interested in publishing it, there would be a different story.
26:27
But I, I, you know, I conceive of what the book is, and then I take it out. My publisher has a first look deal at my books.
26:35
I and I see what, you know, what they what they think, what they're willing to pay. And then, you know, I have an agent. And so we obviously try to get that number up as high as possible.
26:45
And then once I have that number, then I think, okay.
26:49
What would this look like if I did it myself? So what would it cost me to do it myself?
26:54
What am I likely to sell myself?
26:57
How much work is that gonna be? How much of a distraction is that gonna be?
27:02
And
27:03
ninety percent of the time, you know, the math the math tends to go towards traditional publishing in my experience.
27:11
The the kids book that I did, the publisher just wasn't,
27:17
wasn't
27:18
It, like, wasn't in their wheelhouse. They didn't totally get the project.
27:23
But,
27:24
so I did it myself. It's been great and really fun and our to Cleveland, but also just an incredible amount of work. I mean, like, the coins I sell directly from my store, right?
27:36
The manufacturer makes them. They drop it off at the warehouse.
27:39
They get shipped.
27:43
Fulfilling books through Amazon is, like, in an, like, and then also the thousand
27:48
independent retailers in the United States.
27:51
Plus every international addition,
27:53
you know,
27:55
is
27:55
extraordinarily,
27:58
logistically difficult.
28:00
And I remember you you gave this talk one time that was awesome where you showed a chart of the sales of your book versus the normal book. So a normal book, you get a peek it pretty much just kinda goes away. But then for some of the classics,
28:13
you get a peek, and then it goes down a little bit, but then it kinda quickly comes up to the point the word even, like, it's pretty steady throughout,
28:20
like a catcher in the rye or something like that, or even sometimes it'll it'll it'll suck early on and just slowly get better. Your books, if I remember correctly, they they pop just like everyone else. They went down a little bit just like everyone else, but then they, like, raise and were pretty steady with daily sales. And you're, like, That's because I make shit that can last a long time. And this was actually for when you're running perennial seller. I think you're like proving this point. Is is is that still the case? And considering all of your other businesses
28:48
is book is making books still where you make the majority of your income? Or are you just using that because you love it and it happens to make money? And you but you make the bulk of your money from other states? Yeah. It's it's
28:59
Most non fiction authors make more money from speaking than from books.
29:04
That's because speaking can be more lucrative but it's also because most authors don't sell very many books.
29:11
Right?
29:12
So I I'm in an unusual space where
29:15
My books do sell consistently, and I have a lot of them. So I I make a good living from that, but probably make more money from stuff other than book than books,
29:25
all all in. Dude, that's crazy.
29:28
That that you're like the man and yet still, it's like the other Well, that that's that's another reason to publish. Right? So so, like,
29:37
you you're a publisher does not take any percentage of speaking, does not take any film or TV adaptations,
29:44
does not take any ancillary products, any merchandising, anything like that. So, really, this the book is
29:51
It's not a loss leader because,
29:54
people pay for books and and and books have value to people, but, like, the the the ideas in the book
30:01
everything else is downstream from whether that that takes hold or not. Does that make sense?
30:07
So if the book doesn't land, all the other stuff, you know, doesn't really matter. But if the book works, all the other stuff happens, and then the success of the book is slightly less,
30:18
less significant.
30:19
I think,
30:21
what my so so in publishing, there's the front list and the back list. Front list is anything,
30:27
within one year.
30:29
That, like, the year of release, that's considered a front list title, and then it becomes,
30:34
a back list title after a year.
30:36
So most titles stop selling when they leave the backlist,
30:40
when they leave the front list and
30:42
become on the backlist. But almost all of the income in publishing
30:47
is from the backlist.
30:50
So so for me, it's about, like, I'm I've tried to create that in my own
30:55
my own catalog of, like, titles that sell every year as opposed to, like,
31:02
a big book that comes out gets a lot of attention, then then three, four years later, I have to write another new book because the other one is, like, not relevant anymore.
31:11
It's like it's like Michael Booblete or or Mariah Carey running a Christmas song. You know, you you want that Christmas hit. You want that to do anything? Yeah. I mean, so so, like,
31:20
my book, The Daily Stowick, when when my agent was like, we should do a page, you you should do a page a day about stosys, and then I was like, I don't know. And he was like, it will be your best selling book. And I was like, there's no way. That doesn't make any sense. He's like, yes, it will. Every new year. And he's like, it will. And he's right. It the book sold
31:37
more copies this already this January than last January.
31:43
Amazing. What what do you do with your money? Yeah. I know you got a ranch.
31:48
And
31:48
I think you live here. He he he lives in the car. That I mean, that was, like, my house. The the so it's it's like it wasn't like a hot, like, a luxury property or whatever. It's not like Kanye having a ranch in Wyoming. You actually live there because you wanted to live there. Sam Sam, I think, has some some similar aspirations.
32:05
But what do you do? Are you, like, I'm an investor. You just do something boring with your money? What do what do you do with your money?
32:11
Well, I I spent a lot of it on this bookstore.
32:14
I I I bought two buildings in this in this small town of Bastrope.
32:18
Original is gonna be a bookstore in a coffee shop. Now it's a bookstore, and I rent out half of it to a, a record store. But I wanted I needed, like, a space to do all my stuff. So up top is like my office.
32:29
My wife also wanted me to take all my books out of our house.
32:32
So, that that was part of it. It was like, getting all the the shit out.
32:36
But no, I don't really do anything. I don't really do anything with it. I invest it.
32:41
I'm I like investing in things
32:44
that are very different than internet things. So most of it's, like, in income producing real estate.
32:52
In which state? Texas and Florida.
32:57
And you're just buying, like, like multi family? I have some multi family. I have some mostly single,
33:02
single family,
33:03
and then some, like, vacation rentals.
33:06
And you have a manager who what would it look like? Do you are you hands on with that? Is it headache for you? Yeah. I try I mean, I try to have it be as little a headache possible. I've most of them are managed by, yeah, property managers.
33:18
But, but I'd like
33:20
it's not that I think the the stuff that I do will go away, but I like the idea of, like, like, my decision to write trust men lying and not having to think about needing to sell it upfront.
33:30
There was a similar one when after I wrote Trust me online, I was like, hey, for, you know, for my next book, I wanna do this book about
33:37
ancient philosophy,
33:38
and they were like,
33:42
are you are you sure? You know, like, that they gave me less than half. I got seventy five thousand dollars for the obstacle is the way,
33:50
which is sold, you know, many, many times more copies then trust me. I'm lying.
33:55
And, you know, obviously set up all all these other things.
33:58
But when they came back with that offer, I was like, okay. Sure. Whatever. You know, it it wasn't I didn't have to think about
34:05
whether
34:06
I could live on seventy five thousand dollars for however long it took me to write the book because
34:12
my life wasn't set up around needing. That's that's really like, when people hear a book advance, it can sound like a lot of money.
34:19
Like, even, you know,
34:21
two hundred thousand dollars to write trust me in line. So But it's just like a salary, right, for two years. Even worse than that. Right? So I'd I let's say I left my job And then eighteen months later, the book came out,
34:32
from from, like, when I left. So two hundred thousand dollars over eighteen
34:36
months, that's that's pretty good. But like I said, it hasn't earned another dollar for ten years.
34:42
So, so over eleven and a half years, two hundred thousand dollars is not is not great.
34:48
But I really I wanted that's the book I wanted to write. And, obviously, it opened up other business opportunities, but I like to be able to do my creative work,
34:56
and not have to think about,
34:59
does it make sense in the dollar instead? And this is This is how the entertainment business works as well. Like,
35:05
almost all the money is in the catalog in owning the intellectual property,
35:10
over the long term. But you can't do that if you are dependent. Like, you get paid as an author every six months.
35:19
So and you're getting paid for the previous six months of earnings. Not like, okay, ended yesterday. Here's your thing. You're you're getting
35:28
essentially a paid from a year ago.
35:30
And so that's, like, you know, that's a you can be living hand to mouth way, even if you're a very well known person who's in, you know, the media all the time. And so I I wanna be in a position where that's not the case.
35:43
Sean, do you remember, like,
35:46
seven, maybe two thousand and fourteen, I think? Basically, when when you and I were just getting to know each other,
35:52
there was this article that went viral and it said you can buy ghost town in California for, like, one point two million dollars. Do you remember that? Was like, you could buy, like, a old mining ghost house. Yeah. And people did a group did it. Right? And I think, yeah, I saw your note today. Ryan was involved in that. I think Ryan and his, Ryan so Ryan, correct me if I'm wrong. You I've never met brands in the other room. My best buddy.
36:14
Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. So to this shot. Okay. So devil is good friends with Brent, so I've heard all about him. So if you go on YouTube, Sean, and you type in like ghost town Brent, you'll see this channel
36:23
where this guy named Brent, he's this really cool dude who's got like one point five million subscribers on YouTube.
36:28
He started living in this ghost town that he bought a while ago, but just when the COVID when pandemic hit, he just moved there, and it it went to the moon. And it's the best YouTube channel I've watched. Well, anyway, Ryan, weren't you, like, the you and Brent were, like, the mind the brains behind it. You were just kinda the quiet. I was one of I was one of the investors. There's a there's a bunch of investors. I think we know, you probably know, like, half of them at this point, or more more than half.
36:52
But I to be perfectly honest, I thought it was a terrible I was like, you're you're gonna lose all your money.
36:58
This is not gonna work. But I mean, I've known Brent for so long. I I just sort of was, like, one of the small. Token investors. But I and I didn't see it becoming what it was becoming, I I should've. Like,
37:09
I was thinking about it in terms of real estate, because Brett and I have invested in in in real estate in Austin before.
37:15
And so I was thinking about it in real estate,
37:18
and, you know, being from California, I was like, that area is, like,
37:24
like, a pit, you know.
37:27
Anyways, I didn't think about it as a content play, and that's obviously what what it
37:33
ultimately
37:34
probably will become.
37:36
I mean, you could make more money off the YouTube channel than the actual
37:40
any money you can make off just turning it into a hotel. That's one of the things I found with the bookstore, and and that's kind of where where the that it clicked for me was realizing that so opening the bookstore that, like,
37:50
that making money from selling books might be the third or fourth,
37:56
like,
37:57
least important revenue stream or or use of the property. Like, the office being number one,
38:03
the,
38:04
space to film and make stuff, like, content being number two, and then, like, real estate being number three, and then,
38:12
you know, like, the actual,
38:14
brick and mortar retail business being, like, four or five.
38:19
That's amazing. So you basically are, like, you bought a set the set actually just kinda functions. It's like if But it it's like dude, it's like three. Oh, coffee.
38:28
It's like three hundred acres in the middle of the mountains. Yeah. Have you seen it, Sean? No. No. No. No. I'm talking about the book shop. But they say it's the same thing though. I mean, the the the ghost town is an enormous set. It's a set piece to film and create content and have
38:42
a life and a brand that people care about. You know? And,
38:47
So so hold on. So it's been many years now. So what's actually what is it today? Is there I don't watch the YouTube channel. Is there like a functioning town? Do people come visit? It's the pandemic obviously made a hospitality business you know, not very viable. So right now, it's it's mostly just in the sort of rebuilding phase. They're, like, rehabbing all these different cabins. And then he films, you know, if someone's videos there, and they do like merchandise and stuff like that. It's really but, like, my son, like, my son is five. He watches one of those videos every night before bed. He's, like, obsessed with it.
39:18
It's beautiful. It's like a beautiful YouTube channel. It's and Brent is very endearing. It's awesome.
39:24
And it's I mean, it's crazy that the quality of stuff you can make. A one person can make with, like, a drone, a GoPro,
39:32
and, like, you know, one decent, like, Sony camera. Like, you can I mean, he's he it was at one point putting out, like, a forty five minute video a week? Like, he was putting, like, a television quality
39:44
show out
39:46
for millions of people, you know, for, like, a couple thousand dollars a month. It's crazy what you can do. And he went it went from, like, zero to, like, one point five or one point. I forget exactly over a million subscribers in, like, eighteen months. Yeah. I mean, he got tons of media attention. It's done, like, hundreds of millions of views I'm very bullish on YouTube as a social note. I'm, like, late to YouTube, ironically, considering that's, like, what I left school to focus on. Like, I, I saw, at this talent agency, I signed their first YouTube client. And I remember this agent coming up to me and he's like, what are you gonna do? You're gonna commission their advertising revenue. And I was like, I guess, Yeah. And, like, that's, like, of course, that that's way better than commissioning
40:25
checks from, you know, a television series.
40:28
Because you just what you actually own, own the stuff. But,
40:32
I've seen it even with with daily stoic. Like, like, as an author, you get recognized, like, every once in a while. Actually been weird for me in the pandemic because, like, I haven't done that much stuff. And so every time I if I go out or I do something, like, I was I've I've saw someone in Austin a couple weeks ago, And then I was I was just in New Orleans. And, like, because of YouTube,
40:52
and and, like, Instagram reels, like, the amount of, like, fans I see in person, it's, like, exponentially different than what I was getting from like, who I was looking for. I see you on TikTok, like, every day.
41:05
You're in my TikTok feed every day. Oh, well, I'm sorry to hear that.
41:10
Telling me to, like, you know, Thanks Marcus Aurelius said. Yes. The thing yeah. Tell me something some ancient dude is you know, said about, you know, remembering I'm gonna die or, like, you know, not not being anxious about the future. And I'm like, yeah, actually,
41:25
this guy's talking some sense. I like it. And and this and the the video quality is actually really good.
41:30
Like, I don't know if you're I don't know what your doing for that. But, like That's like a GoPro. That's a GoPro
41:35
nine hero. It costs six hundred dollars, and you can shoot in four k video.
41:40
With a it doesn't even have an external mic. It's like, it's crazy what you can do.
41:44
But you could do a four k video on your iPhone, but when I load on four k. My shit never looks The go I think the GoPro corrects, but I don't know. The GoPro does incredible. The the lighting in the building, I have to say,
41:55
not something I control is is quite good.
41:58
Well, it looks like you're on, like, a farm and you're leaning on the post at, like, you're in the middle. You're, like, in the middle of a walk. I mean, the gopro's are better for outside stuff, but, yeah, you just, I mean, just put it there, and it shoots, like, you know, super high quality stuff, and then somebody cuts it up. Did you edit Are you just hand that off to somebody? You see these kinds of things? For a week, and then I I try to shoot I try to think about what I want them to make when I'm shooting in. And sometimes I'll give notes. I'll be like, okay. You know, cut this here or whatever, but I'm mostly yeah. I mostly just shoot in, like, small blocks,
42:29
and then The idea is, like, okay. So if I'm shooting in a in, you know, between thirty and one minute thirty second and one minute chunks,
42:37
Okay. So that goes,
42:40
content of that size can go on Twitter.
42:42
Instagram as a real can be a Facebook video, and it can be a,
42:47
tiktok.
42:48
So you've got, like,
42:49
four
42:50
shot four bites of the apple there, then that content can be packaged together
42:56
to make, videos on on YouTube. So I'll take, like, eight of those, and that can become an eight minute YouTube video.
43:03
And so so by shooting, like, these little things, I get, like, lots of different, like, platforms that they can go out on.
43:11
So,
43:12
basically,
43:14
Well, so Ryan, I I had I I made a living with a daily email. Sean Sean just released this new business that he working on, which is amazing. Sean, I gotta reply to your email. It's called The Milk Road. It's pretty hilarious,
43:26
and it's, like, a bit, a crypto daily email that he's working on with his partner, Ben. But, you have the daily stoic, which is awesome. But you have this new ish thing that seems to be, like, working out really well in honestly, I think could be like one of your bigger businesses. I also think it could be bigger because you could sell it because it's not exactly like the Ryan show. But it's called The Daily Dad. Is that right? Yeah. So I do two daily emails slash podcasts. Daily Dad and Daily Stoke.
43:52
Who's who's writing all the daily deaths. I write them all. I write daily Dad and daily stoic. What?
43:58
How big's that business? Or how big is the email?
44:02
Daily dad is, like, sixty thousand people, I think.
44:05
It's weirdly not as big as I
44:08
want not just want it to be, but I actually thought it would grow faster than Daily Stoke did, and it's actually been a little bit slower.
44:16
But,
44:17
How big's the daily stowage?
44:20
Oh my god. Yeah. Really?
44:22
Holy shit. And do you advertise to grow these? Or what are or you're just through content, then you capture you make videos and Yeah. I make content.
44:30
Social drives a lot of the sign ups.
44:33
And then the the book I mean, the book sold, you know, well over a million copies.
44:38
But,
44:40
but, yeah, so I I write both of them it's it's mostly organic. But I'm trying to I'm having to get more serious about sort of I think some of the low hanging fruits probably been picked. So I'm having to start to think more seriously about it as a as a business, not just the content that I make. Man, you
44:54
you you oh, my god. You're killing me. Why weren't you advertising, like, three or four years ago. It was so much cheaper. You but you could go to acquire email for a dollar fifty. Now it's, like, five, six, seven dollars.
45:05
I I should have asked you.
45:08
So you you're hanging out with people all the time that are, you know, super successful. I know a bunch of people who know you and I think you're respected in the kind of, like, the business world and entrepreneurial world,
45:19
but I feel like The Matthew Buchanan Hey World
45:23
I feel like you you are,
45:25
pretty grounded and you're I don't get the vibe from you that I get from a lot of people I hang out with, which is just like more. More, not enough.
45:33
I'm not there yet. I gotta go bigger, bigger.
45:36
And, and really it's just kind of like, I haven't succeeded enough yet. I haven't earned enough yet. I want more money, more success.
45:44
And I don't get that vibe from you. Are you just hiding it, or is that the case?
45:48
I mean, I definitely have there's definitely a part of me that's in that. I mean, I've written
45:53
twelve books in ten years. If I was just, like, oh, I'm good. You know, like, clearly there's the drive
45:59
there, or even some might say a compulsion.
46:03
I think,
46:05
So so there's a part of it, but I I have
46:08
so I've been with my wife since we since I was twenty. So we met, like, right as all this stuff was happening. And so and then I have kids five years ago.
46:17
So I've always been
46:20
a little bit more
46:22
of, like, a normal person. I don't mean that in, like, a effective way, but I haven't been, like, oh, I'm a digital nomad or, like, you know, I'm I'm gonna go live in Puerto Rico for two years. Like, you know, like, I've been more of just, like, a regular, like, I don't wanna say a nine to five person, but, like, I've just been, like, more
46:38
rooted in, like, regular people, life, then I think a lot of, like, creative entrepreneurial people I know who I tend to find are
46:46
a bit more, like, chaotic, it sounds judgmental, but just it's a different lifestyle.
46:51
And so I think that's I think that's a part of it.
46:55
No. I I know what you mean. Like, for example, right now, a whole bunch of my friends are either, you know, like you say, they're crypto rich, moving to Puerto Rico, so I don't pay they're going to Miami because I heard the actions there right now. I'm doing this, doing that. And I'm just like, but, you know, like, I just got I have two little babies, and I'm like, the idea of moving. Like, I mean, the idea of, like, getting the kids into the car to go to the park is, like, overwhelming.
47:17
Let alone
47:19
like, uprooting
47:20
my life in some way, in any way, taking, like, massive risks now just is not, like, appealing to me in the same way. Well, like, when I was twenty four, I remember,
47:30
I moved I picked up. I moved to Silicon Valley. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I was like, this is where the action is. So I'm just gonna move to Silicon Valley, and then I ended up getting,
47:39
this job working with this, like, billionaire dude in the office, he had this dope office, and I remember I slept in the office, like, two hundred thirty two days out of the three hundred sixty five days. And I was just loving it. I wasn't, like, I was being forced. Nobody's forced to be in the door. The office had an apartment. Right? Don't feel bad for me. It was, like, it was, like, it had, like, two million dollars at the furniture. It was a love it was a billionaire. A better a better Peter Teal's office. Yeah. I wasn't sleeping at a garage. Like, the the bathroom floor was heated in the morning. So your feet weren't your toesies weren't cold. So, you know, it wasn't super rough. But nonetheless, I basically was
48:11
choosing to obsess and, like, go all in in a way. I was, like, excited about that and able to do it in a way that I couldn't, as real life stuff layered on, like, relationship and kids and things. Like, I remember when clubhouse blew up, like, a couple months ago or six I was, like, what? Like, I I was like, I don't even wanna go to a real conference,
48:29
let alone
48:31
be in, like, an internet room conference, like, I it it was just totally inconceivable
48:35
to me that anyone would wanna do it, have the time to do it. If that's so that's sort of not been I I actually like writing. You know what I mean? So the other part of it is is not just like the sort of, wanting to have more of a normal sort of rooted life. Although, I feel like I do weird unusual.
48:52
I I take risks in other ways living on this farm and stuff, but,
48:57
it was also, like, for me, like, I I
49:00
writing to me is a calling that's a little bit different
49:03
than,
49:04
I don't know,
49:05
making money in crypto or something. Like, it's It's a blessing and a curse. Right? It's a blessing in that it's fulfilling. It gives you purpose.
49:13
It's artistic. It's like a thing you master.
49:16
There's also, I think, a ceiling on it, you know, and and, like, you can you can be good at it. There's obviously the JK Rallings of the world, but, like, you know,
49:25
you But but there's not a ceiling to being famous. I mean, you know, we're both friends with Tim Farris and, like, his fame allowed him don't know what he's worth, but he's probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars because of his investments. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there there's not a ceiling on being well known and getting No. But, I mean, you sort of, you end up in different niches. Right? If you if you're called to be a poet, you, obviously, it'd be more lucrative to write business books, but, like,
49:47
you are where you are. You know, there's a certain amount of,
49:51
like, you don't choose what muses visit you. I know that sounds a little mystical, but, like, you I, like, Sometimes people have been like, oh, he's writing about stoicism to get rich, which I always laugh at because, like, again, I if I if being rich was what was motivating to me, I would do literally anything but this. Right? Like, this is the worst possible of the things to fit.
50:13
But I guess my my thing is, like, I I really like the routine and the ritual of sitting down to write, which is also, I think, inherently a bit grounding in a way that, like, some of these other pursuits maybe aren't.
50:27
What is your,
50:29
normal work day look like? I mean, are you are you doing, like, a nine to five? Not nine to five. Like, I wake up early, I I go for a run or a walk with the kids, whether we're at my farm or my place in in town.
50:41
I don't check my phone in the morning.
50:44
I don't eat in the morning. I usually journal in the morning, and then I go I write usually for two or three hours
50:50
and then the rest of the day after that is business, other work stuff. And I'm I'm done by four almost every day. So I'm probably work
50:59
eight
51:00
thirty to four.
51:03
Seems like a good estimate. I like it.
51:05
I try to I've but I I like, it's important. There are also
51:10
I I don't know. To me being really great at what you do and
51:15
somehow managing to be, like, a somewhat normal person,
51:20
to me is actually, like, a rarer thing to do than to to just
51:25
be great at what you'd like, I think if anyone
51:27
decided to be,
51:29
like, Tom Brady's Tom Brady, but there's a cost to be in Tom Brady. But, like, if you choose to be that
51:37
singularly dedicated to what you do. It's easier to be better at what you do than to say, like, I'm gonna work nine to five and be,
51:46
like,
51:47
great at what I do, if that makes sense.
51:50
So you,
51:51
used to work for Tucker Max. You then became buddies with him, and,
51:56
you had a a a business together.
51:58
But I've never asked either of you about this. You've probably it's based off of some of the stances. I know that you've seen you've some great stuff about, like, a letter to your dad about voting for Trump. I know that you're against, like, a lot of these statues, and you've donated money to that. And,
52:13
Tucker,
52:15
I think, has gone the other way where no. I wouldn't I don't want to call it the opposite because, of course, he's probably against a lot of things or for a lot of things you are, but maybe different. And he actually recently came out this article that,
52:26
Sean and I talked about. It's called doomsday Optimism,
52:29
And it's about how
52:31
very bluntly,
52:32
but he's such a good writer that, like, everything he writes, it seems like convincing But basically, he talks about how he thinks, like, the American government is basically gonna collapse in two to four years and how he's preparing for doomsday.
52:45
And it was like crazy fascinating. But I what is your opinion on that? I'll I'll I've been eager to ask you what you think about that and what if you have an opinion on it.
52:55
Tucker was very good to me early in my career and, set me up for the success that I've had. So I'm I feel very grateful for that in a lot of ways.
53:04
He and I live in very different realities now.
53:08
I think, I don't know exactly what caused that or or what
53:14
what
53:16
the driving force of that is. I mean, I have some theories, but,
53:21
A lot of that stuff that I see in Reed, I think it probably has nothing to do with
53:28
whatever he's talking about. It's it strikes me as,
53:32
as driven by
53:33
driven by something else
53:36
which I've seen a lot of, like, I think the pandemic brought it out in a lot of people that probably so we both know but I've noticed a kind of a radicalization or,
53:45
an untethering
53:52
from people,
53:54
that otherwise I would have assumed
53:56
we're in in alignment on.
53:58
I've just noticed,
54:01
an untethering
54:02
that I don't I don't know where it's going,
54:05
but it it certainly worries me.
54:09
Is that a diplomatic offer?
54:12
Yeah. And I don't really like that answer because I understand what you're trying to do. I I I think you could you could not agree with his opinion and still be respectful towards him. But I understand that you're trying to, like, keep it, you know, be cool. But like, in one regards, I could be like, well, I I I under I actually could see Ryan thinking almost something similar because he lives in the country and he likes privacy and, like, he, you know, you're, like, so so high IQ, that high IQ people typically are, like, quirky and have, like, weird opinions. But then on the other side, I know, like, some of the things that you stand for, and I could just laughing at them being like, what are you ridiculous?
54:47
But it's it's in It's it's weird. I I've noticed this sort of trend in, like, sort of tech entrepreneurial
54:53
people where
54:55
I don't wanna say fads, but it it's almost like these idea viruses
54:59
sort of enter the community.
55:01
And some people end up taking them to, like, very strange extremes.
55:05
So, like, polyamory was one a few years ago. And then crypto is one. I I I've I've I like, I'm not anti crypto. I I've I've I I think there's a lot in crypto. I've I'm invested in it too. But then then it then in the pandemic, there was, like, then there was this sort of anti vax,
55:24
anti lockdown, anti like, COVID denialism, that was one. And then
55:29
I'm I'm very alarmed
55:31
by
55:32
some of the people that I know in that space that are now going in sort of,
55:37
like, a it's it's worse than a trumpian direction. It's more of, like, a January sixth, like,
55:44
end of the, like, a, like, a toxic,
55:48
like, we gotta buy guns And I have guns, but there there's this, like, almost like,
55:54
like, doomsday,
55:56
like, disaster cultish direction that it's going in, and I I don't it strikes me as coming from somewhere other than, like, what they're actually saying it's coming about. Does that make sense?
56:09
And by that, do you mean,
56:11
the
56:12
belief is coming from some other, like, kind of reasons or the modems. Meaning, like, Like, they're trying to make money. Yeah. Like, if we perpetuate this, we'll get more notoriety, we'll get more money, we'll get more attention.
56:24
Like, you know, there's some people like clickbait is in general is that. Right? Like, I may not believe this. Like, if you watch a sports talk show Yeah. On ESPN,
56:32
They don't necessarily think that LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan, but they know if they say it, it gets clipped and it gets shared. And so there's, like, this Yeah. I I do. I I perform
56:42
versus,
56:43
like, do you think that the belief has come from somewhere or the motive might be driving them extreme, you know, radical at the point of I think it's both those things. So I think number one, all these people are are very smart.
56:53
Right? And so if you've built your whole career being smart and being a contrarian,
56:58
it can put you in an uncomfortable position where you're, like, rejecting things that make sense because that's instinctively where you go. Like, this is what happened with with with Dove at American apparel. His whole crew everything he did was fucking insane. I'm gonna start a USA apparel company. I'm not gonna use professional models. I'm gonna pay a living wage. None of that makes any sense. That was the all of those individually are very bad ideas, but he somehow built a billion dollar company out of it. So then when people were like, you need to hire a professional operator,
57:27
inside, you know, you need to hire a real CFO and a real CMO and all this stuff. He was like, no. Right? So we just got used to rejecting everyone's advice, and it it it led to this downward spiral. So I think that there's a little bit of that.
57:41
I think there's,
57:43
I think there is this sort of as people,
57:48
become,
57:49
like,
57:50
I think there's you know what audience capture is where you sort of get used to telling the audience what they wanna hear And so the algorithm is very seductive. It tends to reward,
58:00
like, obviously, controversial things. It rewards,
58:04
you know,
58:05
polarizing
58:06
things. And so I think what happens as certain people's relevance
58:10
slips,
58:11
they are more prone
58:14
to the it's like, you know, you're always putting stuff out. And if what you've put out in the world hasn't been working,
58:21
And then suddenly you, like, you chance upon something as
58:24
as,
58:25
compelling as like anti vax or,
58:28
this or that, that then it it you it's like you're getting it's like a a blast from the past. You're like, fuck. This is it. Right? So I think there I think there's some of that, that that's taking that's spiraling people. I also think just the pandemic fucks with people said, it's it's been a long, like, we're not meant to live like this. I think it's that.
58:48
The other thing, like, in, like, a Joe rogan or some of the intellectual dark web people, I'm also noticing that just, like, when you've been very mistreated,
58:56
by, like, say, the media or just, like, elite culture.
59:01
It's very hard for you to agree with those people even when they're right. So you end up going back to the contrarianism,
59:08
you end up, like,
59:10
going against things that ordinarily you wouldn't agree you would totally agree with, but from a tribal perspective,
59:19
you know, you you it's imagine if Trump had gotten reelected,
59:24
like, how many liberals would have trouble with the vaccine because you would have to then agree with a trump thing.
59:30
I think I think we're seeing
59:33
I think this is why, and a lot of men who have been,
59:36
sort of not media darlings
59:39
are going towards some of the direction of things we're talking about it's just a sort of, like, I'll die before I agree with those people on anything.
59:48
Right.
59:49
There's a there's this chart I saw was amazing. It was in a it was in a crypto annual report, and they said, yep, what is what are some of the underlying things that drive
59:58
this, like, script is like a religion. It's like a cult. It's like, you know, there's very, very strong. It's not just the same as, like, I like this business. I am gonna invest in this asset. You know, people don't feel the same way about Bitcoin as they do, you know, a piece of property in Dallas. And so
01:00:13
it's a it was this chart, and the chart basically was on the on the on the y axis, it was like, do you believe it was about institutions? He goes, do you believe that institutions are
01:00:23
like credible or not credible. Meaning, like, are they honest or are dishonest? It was, I think, the way they put it. And then on the other side was, are they competent or incompetent? And it's, like, rank these institutions. It was, like, the US government. It's, like, dishonest,
01:00:36
not not competent, incompetent.
01:00:38
And then it was,
01:00:39
the CDC, and it's and it showed how they've been moving over time. And, basically, every institution that you could think of, whether it's universities,
01:00:46
whether it's health organizations, the NIH and who and and CDC, whether it's the US government,
01:00:52
they are all
01:00:54
sort of traveling towards dishonest and incompetent as the general public viewpoint of them. And this has a bunch of implications as like, well, So people so the things that reject
01:01:04
institutional beliefs, so you see Joe Rogan just explode and populated, you know, he's bigger. His show is bigger than, quote, unquote, mainstream media. He is more mainstream than mainstream media,
01:01:14
but his brand is not an institution, and he doesn't look like them. He doesn't read off a teleprompter. And so he's got this,
01:01:20
appearance of higher honesty, higher competency.
01:01:23
And so the same thing is true with crypto, which is non government money and blah blah blah. And so all these things are, like, on trend right now. And that doesn't necessarily make them more honest and competent, but it is the perception that's good.
01:01:37
I was listing the different things, the other one I put in there is, I think, like, psychedelics is another one where it just becomes, like, this idea virus. And I'm not saying that I have a disagreement about it. I just It's very interesting how these things just sort of infect these different subgroups and become
01:01:51
almost a new it's their identity is primarily in that the the Matt.
01:01:56
It's like
01:01:58
it's very tempting to fall into a thing where you're smarter or better than other people that's sort of outsider mentality. And so I think I'm just I'm very wary of how that's affected people that I know, and I'm worried it's taking
01:02:11
some of the more fragile people into a dark potentially dangerous
01:02:15
direction where they're just they're fucking with things that once you fuck with, they're very difficult to unfuck.
01:02:22
And speaking of of psychedelics, and we'll wrap up in a second here.
01:02:26
I saw I follow a so we've talked about Aubrey Marcus on the podcast because Aubrey has a crazy story because his dad, like, invented, like, the fleshlight.
01:02:36
And then he, like, kinda parlayed that into building this awesome
01:02:39
supplement empire. But I got this Instagram ad or maybe I just saw on this page. So Sean, I don't know if you saw this. I'll remark guy we talked about. Yeah. He has this documentary
01:02:48
where somewhat recently,
01:02:50
he spent, I think, seven
01:02:53
days in complete darkness.
01:02:55
Like, and and I heard maybe it was in Cerro Goto. Am I getting the details right there? It's definitely not at Cerro Goto.
01:03:02
Oh, okay. I know he has a rant on Sedona. Maybe it was there.
01:03:06
Oh, okay. Well, for some reason, I thought I was at yours. Okay. I'm wrong then. But did did Am I right, though, and that it was, like, five or three or seven? Like, multiple days, it complete pitch dark. I have, I have not heard about that, but I am,
01:03:19
Oh, man. I like I like Aubrey a lot. I've known Aubrey a long time, but he's he I I'm I'm a little worried about him.
01:03:26
He he's a wild man on. You didn't see this. So What what was that idea? Why did he become highlighting this?
01:03:33
So basically,
01:03:34
he had a, a night vision camera looking at him, and he was in a small room with a bed and basically pitch dark.
01:03:42
And after
01:03:44
twenty four hours or something like that. He kinda starts hallucinating and kinda goes crazy. And he's talking to himself, and the whole documentary is, is
01:03:53
basically showing the night vision camera of him talking to himself and then, like, a voice over and some flashbacks of him talking, like, what he was experiencing to that point. And he was trying to go through, like, almost a psychedelic experience because I guess there's something where I I don't know the science behind it where you're in the dark for a long time. You start going nutty and have some realizations. I don't know if it's true or not. But it was
01:04:14
fucking insane. It was crazy. I mean, it the way that I see it is, like,
01:04:19
to me, it's like, I don't care if I'm an outdoorsman. If I see a huge epic mountain, I'm gonna be in awe, and that's who I was with I'll remark as in this documentary. I'm like, I don't care about drugs. I don't care about this one after much. You just saw the ad. I just saw I I I watched parts of it. I started watching parts of it because he released, like, five minutes at a time on his Instagram. And I started watching parts of it. He is It's the fucking craziest thing I've ever seen. The guy's insane.
01:04:42
You have to watch this shit. It is Does does he come out okay at the other side, or you haven't gotten to the end?
01:04:49
Well, this was filmed like a year ago. It was on Instagram. So so we we assume it all worked out. Okay. Well, the reason I didn't buy it is it I'm afraid. I'm kinda afraid to watch it. But, like, he's wild, man, because I watch his Instagram, and I see some of the shit he does. I'm like, this is I'm just I'm very I'm very concerned that these people are messing with their brain chemistry in a way that it's hard to come back from and, you know,
01:05:12
I I I am I am not
01:05:16
a fan of,
01:05:18
this sort of like, prescribe medicine for yourself to heal unnamed traumas. Like, I I don't I don't I think it's gonna end very badly.
01:05:26
Maybe I'm a little conservative.
01:05:29
And, I'm missing out on something, but I, I don't think you should fuck with your brain the way some of these people are fucking with their brains, and I think it's gonna I think we're are we're starting to see some of the ramifications of it with some of the stuff we're talking about here, but I I think this is hard to put back in the bottle.
01:05:45
Yeah. This this is wild. This is are you looking it up? Yeah. I'm reading about it right now. What does it say?
01:05:51
Is it seven days? It was like days. So, like, okay. There's a part of this I can get behind, which is, like, you know, people, whether they go try to climb Mount Everest or Wim Hof, getting in a cold black cold bath every day, to, like, you know, challenge themselves to, like, like, it's a, you know, there's a form of meditation, for example. So he says, my thinking was this. If the prospect of sitting in the dark with just your own thoughts frightens you, maybe that's exactly where you need to be. Oh my god. And, oh, rattlesnakes scare me too. I don't need to get bit by rattlesnake.
01:06:20
And so, oh, on it for me, there's a part of this that I actually, like, I get part of that, which is, like,
01:06:27
I think the more comfortable
01:06:29
you could be with yourself and by yourself and not need stimulation,
01:06:32
not need others, not need constant entertainment. I do think that that is, like, a direction personally that I would like to go in where I can I can be at peace and happiness without
01:06:43
something
01:06:44
going on? Now
01:06:46
in this in this one, I think, is less
01:06:49
to me, it's less scary than, like, being, like, yeah, I'm gonna start microdosing LSD or, like, I'm gonna go on this Ayahuasca trip in the fucking forest because I heard Joe Rogan say that it was transformational
01:07:00
To me, that's, like, way higher risk and,
01:07:03
maybe not necessary
01:07:04
compared to, you know, I guess this darkness thing is a little bit less permanent feeling for me. But I mean, is it that's what they do. But they I also just need to, like, break them. I I don't think it's something you wanna be messing with.
01:07:16
Again. Yeah. Maybe it is, like, deeply traumatic. I'm not sure. Hey, you know what the phrase is. Whatever doesn't kill you makes you weaker.
01:07:22
Seriously, man. Don't I don't know. I'm
01:07:25
Whatever doesn't kill you, fucks you up really bad. I always read these as to me, these are, like,
01:07:31
these are content stunts. Right? This is no different than Jackass and and a bunch of other things. Like, maybe some people come from a good place, and I'm just kinda skeptical about all this stuff. Like, for example, I'll give you, Ryan. I'll make it personal for you, which is like, when I saw the daily stoke, I was like, oh, that's smart. Stocism is this growing trend. He probably likes stoicism, but, like, you can like it without having to do all the work of creating a daily email and content around it. Like, that is the opportunistic
01:07:58
side of this, like, kind of cool niche thing that's clearly growing. And I said, I've I'm I don't know you. Right? So I'm just thinking from afar, I'm thinking Oh, that's smart.
01:08:07
And, you know, he probably recognized this growth and said, okay, I could build a cool brand around this thing that I like, and I see it is growing.
01:08:14
And so when I see, and, you know, so for example, if I see you making a TikTok everyday about stoicism, I think to myself, well,
01:08:22
you know,
01:08:23
I don't know how much of that is like, well, this content is gonna work. So I'm gonna do it versus I really just needed to get this off my heart and share this with the world. So similarly when I see, you know, these stunts, I think to myself, well, they know this is content that's gonna hit and they can get a bunch of attention from it and, like, Did he really need to do this and want to do this? I'm not sure. Right? Those motivations get mixed. I know for myself they get mixed because,
01:08:47
you know, if I I've had a bunch of tweets go viral. I, you know, I added two hundred thousand Twitter followers last year. It's very addictive. And in, I don't know if you saw his,
01:08:57
the the the stand up special that that Hudson is doing right now. Oh, so good. Did you see him when he was in Austin? Yes. This part in it did you see when he was in Austin?
01:09:06
I saw him in San Francisco. I live in San Francisco. So I saw him when he was here, and he's got this whole part where he's basically, like, you know,
01:09:13
He's like, I challenged, you know, this dictator who was doing this thing, and then, boom, that clip goes viral. I made fun of Trump at this thing. Boom that clip goes viral, the likes, the views, the followers, the comments, and he's just like fucking inject this into my veins. I need that next hit. So I went after the next big dictator and then the next big fish. And then all of a sudden, like, you know, there was a price to be paid for it. He talks about how he received something in the mail that was, like, you know, some, like, anthrax looking thing, and it got on his kid, and it turned out to be all okay. But, like,
01:09:44
his wife was, like, dude. You have to figure out how to keep them. Should be poking very important. And that's kinda what you're talking about. Right? That's why I figure out how to keep that on a leash, and I think about that a lot. And I think about it, you know, even with what I do. I remember
01:09:56
I was, I was on some big morning show, and I remember thinking, like,
01:10:00
there's a I know what I could do to make this, like, national news. Like, I I know I could I'm I've got a, you know, an audience of several million people right now. What I what and then just going like life is too fucking short, and then also I wanna continue to live in reality. And so I think what happens is certain people get desperate, or maybe their judgment is not good, or they don't have someone in their life that's like,
01:10:24
you know, that could work. But what about this, this, this, and this, as a consequence,
01:10:29
And, you can, you can become unhinged very quickly,
01:10:34
especially if there is any also, you know,
01:10:39
co morbidities with, like, a mental illness or, you know, like and so I it most of the people who wanna be in the public eye, you're already a little you know, like that. And so you gotta be really, really careful. And I'm I'm worried about where some people I know are going.
01:10:56
Yeah. Sam, as a fitness influencer, I've been wanting to talk to you also about your, excessive exercise and what this might be leading to.
01:11:04
Hey, man. You might spend three days in darkness only doing squats, just to, you know, hit the hit those views. I'm in a good place, my friend. I'm I'm doing everything right at the moment.
01:11:13
See how long it like it lasts. Ryan, this has been awesome, man. I I appreciate you coming on. This is fun.
01:11:19
Thanks for thanks for coming in. The name we didn't even say the name of the book. Purge calling. Right?
01:11:25
It's awesome. I I've not read that one yet, but I'm gonna buy. I've read everything else, perennial seller, opsill obstacles away. I guess I've read four, conspiracy
01:11:34
and,
01:11:37
trust me. I'm lying. And then the middle two, what are, There's the stillness one. I haven't read that one. Stillness the season. Is the key, and then ego is the enemy. It's the one I think are missing.
01:11:47
The ego is very good. And obstacles away is very good. Those are both both great. Well, And you get your awesome. I appreciate you. Thanks so much.
00:00 01:12:10