00:00

That texted your brother. I said, hey, I'm about to record with your brother. And he goes,

That texted your brother. I said, hey, I'm about to record with your brother. And he goes,

00:04

he got progressively more truthful. He goes, tell him I said hi. And he goes, Tell him, I said, honor the Ali name.

he got progressively more truthful. He goes, tell him I said hi. And he goes, Tell him, I said, honor the Ali name.

00:12

And he goes, and tell him to stop

And he goes, and tell him to stop

00:16

that was his, is it

that was his, is it

00:20

So, yeah, I've delivered the message.

So, yeah, I've delivered the message.

00:31

Alright. We have,

Alright. We have,

00:33

Moiz Ali here. You've been on the pod before

Moiz Ali here. You've been on the pod before

00:37

people know you because you created native deodorant, which is sold everywhere I look in Target

people know you because you created native deodorant, which is sold everywhere I look in Target

00:43

online.

online.

00:44

In my wife's bathroom. It's there everywhere. So congrats. You built that. You bootstrapped that business yourself,

In my wife's bathroom. It's there everywhere. So congrats. You built that. You bootstrapped that business yourself,

00:50

literally, like, off of a kitchen table. To a hundred million dollar exit to Procter and Gamble. You spent a couple years there. You currently,

literally, like, off of a kitchen table. To a hundred million dollar exit to Procter and Gamble. You spent a couple years there. You currently,

00:58

you invest in a bunch of e commerce things and non e commerce things. You have a podcast called limited supply, which is great. And then you,

you invest in a bunch of e commerce things and non e commerce things. You have a podcast called limited supply, which is great. And then you,

01:06

you also

you also

01:08

do you you and your brother are sort of like business sharks. And so

do you you and your brother are sort of like business sharks. And so

01:12

you know, if I just say, hey. There's, like,

you know, if I just say, hey. There's, like,

01:14

there's a hotdog stand going out of business over here. You'd be, like, let me get my jacket. Let's go. You own real estate. You own a bunch of random things, and so always fun to have you on, man. Thanks for coming. Well, thanks for having me. Super excited to be here.

there's a hotdog stand going out of business over here. You'd be, like, let me get my jacket. Let's go. You own real estate. You own a bunch of random things, and so always fun to have you on, man. Thanks for coming. Well, thanks for having me. Super excited to be here.

01:27

Is that the you want by the way, or do you feel like I let I didn't do your justice in one angle?

Is that the you want by the way, or do you feel like I let I didn't do your justice in one angle?

01:32

No. That sounds,

No. That sounds,

01:34

that sounds of, like, more justice than I deserve. Well, you're also good at one lines. You have a lot of, like, one liners. You're you're very good with language. You, you've said a few things you've said. My two favorite words in the English English language

that sounds of, like, more justice than I deserve. Well, you're also good at one lines. You have a lot of, like, one liners. You're you're very good with language. You, you've said a few things you've said. My two favorite words in the English English language

01:46

distressed

distressed

01:47

asset. And then at what time we were talking to this person, it was you and me and this person, and they were explaining what they do, and it was, like, supplement company and how great it was gonna be and how they're raising all this money and she she or them or he, whatever, walked out the room. And you said, that person's business is one Google away from me ruining it.

asset. And then at what time we were talking to this person, it was you and me and this person, and they were explaining what they do, and it was, like, supplement company and how great it was gonna be and how they're raising all this money and she she or them or he, whatever, walked out the room. And you said, that person's business is one Google away from me ruining it.

02:05

Yeah. You have a a couple other classic

Yeah. You have a a couple other classic

02:10

I read an interview with you where it's where you said,

I read an interview with you where it's where you said,

02:14

you said I forgot how you phrased a video. I was put on Earth to do one thing.

you said I forgot how you phrased a video. I was put on Earth to do one thing.

02:19

Raise earnings per share. Earnings per share. Yeah.

Raise earnings per share. Earnings per share. Yeah.

02:22

That wasn't me that said that, actually. It was the founder of some other company. I forgot where it was. And it was such a great quote. I loved it. Yeah, so I stole that quote. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I killed him, and now it's mine. But that's right. Yeah. Yeah. The other one that I I I attribute to you, I didn't I wasn't there for this story, but I've told the story to, like, hundreds of young entrepreneurs, and they get a kick out of every time, which is I was like, yeah. Moist started native deodorant. It's super successful now. And when he first had the idea, he told people, oh, I'm gonna create a natural deodorant brand. They're, like, Mooys, like, do you know anything about deodorant? Do you wear deodorant, Mooys? What's are you talking about? You're gonna create a deodorant company. And you said,

That wasn't me that said that, actually. It was the founder of some other company. I forgot where it was. And it was such a great quote. I loved it. Yeah, so I stole that quote. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I killed him, and now it's mine. But that's right. Yeah. Yeah. The other one that I I I attribute to you, I didn't I wasn't there for this story, but I've told the story to, like, hundreds of young entrepreneurs, and they get a kick out of every time, which is I was like, yeah. Moist started native deodorant. It's super successful now. And when he first had the idea, he told people, oh, I'm gonna create a natural deodorant brand. They're, like, Mooys, like, do you know anything about deodorant? Do you wear deodorant, Mooys? What's are you talking about? You're gonna create a deodorant company. And you said,

03:02

yeah, to I know nothing about deodorant today, but in six months, I'll know everything there is to know about deodorant. And that That's right. That attitude

yeah, to I know nothing about deodorant today, but in six months, I'll know everything there is to know about deodorant. And that That's right. That attitude

03:09

to me is, like, that's the core of what we do on this podcast. So I don't even know if that's a real story, by the way, but I'm gonna keep telling it. That's a real story. I remember it was in San Francisco. I was with, one of my law school classmates, and it was her

to me is, like, that's the core of what we do on this podcast. So I don't even know if that's a real story, by the way, but I'm gonna keep telling it. That's a real story. I remember it was in San Francisco. I was with, one of my law school classmates, and it was her

03:24

boy end of the time, our husband

boy end of the time, our husband

03:26

who told me that. And he's like, you know, what the hell are you doing here? He worked at Pinterest, and he's like, what the hell are you doing? Start the owner business. I've never heard anybody do something so ludicrous, and I still remember the bar we were sitting at where it happened. Alright. So let's do little segment that I'm gonna call Story Time with Moiz Ali. So Okay.

who told me that. And he's like, you know, what the hell are you doing here? He worked at Pinterest, and he's like, what the hell are you doing? Start the owner business. I've never heard anybody do something so ludicrous, and I still remember the bar we were sitting at where it happened. Alright. So let's do little segment that I'm gonna call Story Time with Moiz Ali. So Okay.

03:45

Cue the music. Okay. So I'm gonna ask you a question. I want you to give me your answer.

Cue the music. Okay. So I'm gonna ask you a question. I want you to give me your answer.

03:49

Boys,

Boys,

03:50

what is the,

what is the,

03:53

what what is the worst way that you've ever made money

what what is the worst way that you've ever made money

03:57

Yeah.

Yeah.

03:58

You know, this is,

You know, this is,

04:00

this is a great story. I think we'd, we don't tell enough or my brother and I don't tell enough, which is When we were growing up, we owned gas stations.

this is a great story. I think we'd, we don't tell enough or my brother and I don't tell enough, which is When we were growing up, we owned gas stations.

04:08

And this is really a family way. We made money and not my particular way. Anyway, we owned a bunch of gas stations and we would cash checks for people as a service.

And this is really a family way. We made money and not my particular way. Anyway, we owned a bunch of gas stations and we would cash checks for people as a service.

04:16

So if you brought in a check, Sean, and you're like, hey, look, this is my payroll check. It's two hundred dollars for this week or two thousand dollars for this week. We would charge you a percentage of that check and give you cash for it, and we would take the check and deposit it into the bank. And,

So if you brought in a check, Sean, and you're like, hey, look, this is my payroll check. It's two hundred dollars for this week or two thousand dollars for this week. We would charge you a percentage of that check and give you cash for it, and we would take the check and deposit it into the bank. And,

04:31

By the end of our gas station careers, we were doing this at massive scale. Like, one of our stores would cash two hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of checks on any given Friday. Like a quarter million dollars of cash was going through our hands. We'd have, like, Wells Fargo coming over and giving us cash.

By the end of our gas station careers, we were doing this at massive scale. Like, one of our stores would cash two hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of checks on any given Friday. Like a quarter million dollars of cash was going through our hands. We'd have, like, Wells Fargo coming over and giving us cash.

04:47

And, you know, we'd be giving it, like, you know, we have these crazy like, a bus full of Hispanic immigrants who are roofers would come to our store. The door would open and, like, it felt like forty immigrants just came out to cash their checks with us. But a long time ago, like, what happened early on in our check cashing careers

And, you know, we'd be giving it, like, you know, we have these crazy like, a bus full of Hispanic immigrants who are roofers would come to our store. The door would open and, like, it felt like forty immigrants just came out to cash their checks with us. But a long time ago, like, what happened early on in our check cashing careers

05:04

was this guy named FM Porter who came in with a check for his business. And the the check was, like, you know, it's two thousand dollars, and we charged a lot because I don't remember why we charged a lot, but we gave them, like, nineteen hundred dollars. We charged five percent of the check. We were gonna deposit the check and earn two thousand dollars.

was this guy named FM Porter who came in with a check for his business. And the the check was, like, you know, it's two thousand dollars, and we charged a lot because I don't remember why we charged a lot, but we gave them, like, nineteen hundred dollars. We charged five percent of the check. We were gonna deposit the check and earn two thousand dollars.

05:20

And, you know, traditionally, what happens is if you're cashing a check, this doesn't happen so much anymore, but it used to happen fifteen years ago. You'd endorsed the back of it and you deposited the bank. Right? So he endorsed the back of it. We gave him the nineteen hundred dollars. We deposited it, and it bounced.

And, you know, traditionally, what happens is if you're cashing a check, this doesn't happen so much anymore, but it used to happen fifteen years ago. You'd endorsed the back of it and you deposited the bank. Right? So he endorsed the back of it. We gave him the nineteen hundred dollars. We deposited it, and it bounced.

05:34

And we're like, what the fuck? This was a ton of money for us. You know, we were poor immigrants. We were working at this gas station. Probably in nineteen ninety seven earning forty thousand dollars a year with all five us working at this time. How old were you? I was probably, like, thirteen at the time, twelve or thirteen at the time. And, like, this was going on. And so there's just are you is I just imagine, like, thirteen year old boys, like, pacing smoking a gars would be like, What the fuck man?

And we're like, what the fuck? This was a ton of money for us. You know, we were poor immigrants. We were working at this gas station. Probably in nineteen ninety seven earning forty thousand dollars a year with all five us working at this time. How old were you? I was probably, like, thirteen at the time, twelve or thirteen at the time. And, like, this was going on. And so there's just are you is I just imagine, like, thirteen year old boys, like, pacing smoking a gars would be like, What the fuck man?

06:00

Like,

Like,

06:03

is that what it looked like? I mean, just like, I I imagine you being the exact same way as you are now when you are Well, yeah. I feel like I was the same way, but I didn't have as much confidence.

is that what it looked like? I mean, just like, I I imagine you being the exact same way as you are now when you are Well, yeah. I feel like I was the same way, but I didn't have as much confidence.

06:11

So I couldn't take this cigar. I I could have ordered people around.

So I couldn't take this cigar. I I could have ordered people around.

06:15

But, anyway, the the check bounced, and we all freaked out. And, we tracked down this guy, and we're like, what the fuck? We knocked down his door. I forgot what he looked. He lived in, like, a small house out here. Like, you know, it was just a local community. It would knock down his door and we're like, what the fuck FM Porter? This check just cash. We're gonna kill you. We're gonna call the cops. Don't know what to do. We're broke now.

But, anyway, the the check bounced, and we all freaked out. And, we tracked down this guy, and we're like, what the fuck? We knocked down his door. I forgot what he looked. He lived in, like, a small house out here. Like, you know, it was just a local community. It would knock down his door and we're like, what the fuck FM Porter? This check just cash. We're gonna kill you. We're gonna call the cops. Don't know what to do. We're broke now.

06:35

Give us our money, and he was, like, relax guys. There's a pro like, you know, The check was made out to his business instead of him. And so it took, like, forty five days,

Give us our money, and he was, like, relax guys. There's a pro like, you know, The check was made out to his business instead of him. And so it took, like, forty five days,

06:44

to figure out all the, rigmarole to get the check made out to him instead of to, his business. And then we cashed it and we, deposited the money. And I remember it went through the second time. You know, we made a hundred dollars on forty five days of two weeks, you know, possibly losing two thousand dollars. And I remember it went through and I told my brother,

to figure out all the, rigmarole to get the check made out to him instead of to, his business. And then we cashed it and we, deposited the money. And I remember it went through the second time. You know, we made a hundred dollars on forty five days of two weeks, you know, possibly losing two thousand dollars. And I remember it went through and I told my brother,

07:03

hey, it went through. And he's like, that was the easiest hundred dollars we've ever made. And I remember it was, like, the worst one hundred dollars we've ever made. It was just cash and checks that were going bad. And constantly being afraid that they're like, this this was early on in our career. We weren't sure if we should do this as a service for our business. It ended up being super profitable. Like, when Cash two hundred fifty thousand dollars of checks on a Friday. You're gonna make twenty five hundred to thirty five hundred dollars on that just for your business on that day alone. But I remember early on we were taking all these risks and we were like, what just happened? We think that, like, you know, we're not gonna be able to pay our rent for the apartment that our my family lives in. That's insane.

hey, it went through. And he's like, that was the easiest hundred dollars we've ever made. And I remember it was, like, the worst one hundred dollars we've ever made. It was just cash and checks that were going bad. And constantly being afraid that they're like, this this was early on in our career. We weren't sure if we should do this as a service for our business. It ended up being super profitable. Like, when Cash two hundred fifty thousand dollars of checks on a Friday. You're gonna make twenty five hundred to thirty five hundred dollars on that just for your business on that day alone. But I remember early on we were taking all these risks and we were like, what just happened? We think that, like, you know, we're not gonna be able to pay our rent for the apartment that our my family lives in. That's insane.

07:39

Were you just going back to, like, math class after your shift? Or, like, how were you were you going after school? What was your how did you do this? Which is the gas station you mean? Yeah. Because you're, like, thirteen years old.

Were you just going back to, like, math class after your shift? Or, like, how were you were you going after school? What was your how did you do this? Which is the gas station you mean? Yeah. Because you're, like, thirteen years old.

07:51

Yeah. Yeah. We'd go on the weekends, like, because, you know, we'd, like, yeah, we'd go on the weekends when I turn sixteen, I could drive and I would go, you know, yeah, after class or, like, on the weekends. I wouldn't go every day, even when I was years old, but I'd probably go at least one weekend or maybe both weekends of the,

Yeah. Yeah. We'd go on the weekends, like, because, you know, we'd, like, yeah, we'd go on the weekends when I turn sixteen, I could drive and I would go, you know, yeah, after class or, like, on the weekends. I wouldn't go every day, even when I was years old, but I'd probably go at least one weekend or maybe both weekends of the,

08:07

when I started having a car, certainly.

when I started having a car, certainly.

08:12

Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot?

Our software is the worst. Have you heard of HubSpot?

08:15

See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I our new CRM. Our software is the best. Hubspot,

See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I our new CRM. Our software is the best. Hubspot,

08:25

grow better.

grow better.

08:27

We're in the story. We're in the story, part of the show. So let me ask you one thing that I don't know is true, but I want you to confirm it. So right by our office, the one that you and I shared, there was a cafe called native coffee, I think it was. It was the native cafe. Native juice. Native juice. Native juice. It had the same color and the same logo as native deodorant.

We're in the story. We're in the story, part of the show. So let me ask you one thing that I don't know is true, but I want you to confirm it. So right by our office, the one that you and I shared, there was a cafe called native coffee, I think it was. It was the native cafe. Native juice. Native juice. Native juice. It had the same color and the same logo as native deodorant.

08:48

Did you and and it was right by the Bard stop, I believe. So if I'm imagining what happened, you went on you were on Bart and you were just walking around Soma and you saw it and you go, There it is. That's mine now. Is that true or false?

Did you and and it was right by the Bard stop, I believe. So if I'm imagining what happened, you went on you were on Bart and you were just walking around Soma and you saw it and you go, There it is. That's mine now. Is that true or false?

09:04

That's false. No. It's not. It's not false. Okay. I'll tell you the story. We gotta put the picture up because they're identical. It's an identical

That's false. No. It's not. It's not false. Okay. I'll tell you the story. We gotta put the picture up because they're identical. It's an identical

09:11

Yes. I actually think they changed their branding the last three years, but you could still find old logos on their yelp page. Yeah. So the quick, it's a little fun here. Like, it was actually a block away from where I live.

Yes. I actually think they changed their branding the last three years, but you could still find old logos on their yelp page. Yeah. So the quick, it's a little fun here. Like, it was actually a block away from where I live.

09:22

So I'd walk by it all the time. But, you know, the color I'm not sure if the color was the same. I know the font was the same. We actually didn't steal the font from them, although I readily admit we did steal the font. We stole the font of our website from Harry's. So if you look at Harry's fogged, it's the exact same font as ours. And if you look at the colors of our site, it was, and I'm not sure if it still is the exact same colors the Casper had. Like, you know, when I was launching native, it took me about, you know, three days to do the whole website. And I was just like, okay. You know what I'm not gonna do is hire a logo designer and spend a fortune building a logo and spending a lot of money on branding. I will steal the logo that Harry's has, which is just their name written out in a font. I'm gonna do the same thing. I can't steal their colors as well because that'd be too too blatant.

So I'd walk by it all the time. But, you know, the color I'm not sure if the color was the same. I know the font was the same. We actually didn't steal the font from them, although I readily admit we did steal the font. We stole the font of our website from Harry's. So if you look at Harry's fogged, it's the exact same font as ours. And if you look at the colors of our site, it was, and I'm not sure if it still is the exact same colors the Casper had. Like, you know, when I was launching native, it took me about, you know, three days to do the whole website. And I was just like, okay. You know what I'm not gonna do is hire a logo designer and spend a fortune building a logo and spending a lot of money on branding. I will steal the logo that Harry's has, which is just their name written out in a font. I'm gonna do the same thing. I can't steal their colors as well because that'd be too too blatant.

10:09

So I'm just gonna steal the colors of another website, which was cast at the time because they were doing really well. And so that's how the, that's how the font and the colors came together to be what Native is today.

So I'm just gonna steal the colors of another website, which was cast at the time because they were doing really well. And so that's how the, that's how the font and the colors came together to be what Native is today.

10:21

But I'd I wouldn't walk by that store all the time. And, like, believe it or not, right next to Native Juice is the post office. And I was packing all of the deodorants in my own apartment,

But I'd I wouldn't walk by that store all the time. And, like, believe it or not, right next to Native Juice is the post office. And I was packing all of the deodorants in my own apartment,

10:30

for the first six months or a year of the business. And so I would walk by native juice go with these bags of, like, you know, filled with boxes of deodorants that I'd go to the post office And I'd hand them to the post office, and they were like, is this from Nextdoors? Is this, like, the juice company? You guys are it says native on the packaging. And I was like, this is now the same native. It's a different one. And then what would happen is, like, you know, two and a half years into the business. Native juice co came like, the woman who started that business came to our office, and she's, like, I'm getting so many fucking phone calls for your business, for customer service issues. Where's my package all the shit? People are just Google and native San Francisco.

for the first six months or a year of the business. And so I would walk by native juice go with these bags of, like, you know, filled with boxes of deodorants that I'd go to the post office And I'd hand them to the post office, and they were like, is this from Nextdoors? Is this, like, the juice company? You guys are it says native on the packaging. And I was like, this is now the same native. It's a different one. And then what would happen is, like, you know, two and a half years into the business. Native juice co came like, the woman who started that business came to our office, and she's, like, I'm getting so many fucking phone calls for your business, for customer service issues. Where's my package all the shit? People are just Google and native San Francisco.

11:04

We didn't have a phone number. It was I think Dana still does have a phone number posted. So she would be like, I'm getting forty phone calls a day for you. This is gonna stop. You gotta figure out a way to stop this. And what we can't we don't know what to do. Like, you know, people just Google made of San Francisco and your name comes up. It's not we're not saying call you And so she came in, like, several times.

We didn't have a phone number. It was I think Dana still does have a phone number posted. So she would be like, I'm getting forty phone calls a day for you. This is gonna stop. You gotta figure out a way to stop this. And what we can't we don't know what to do. Like, you know, people just Google made of San Francisco and your name comes up. It's not we're not saying call you And so she came in, like, several times.

11:23

And then,

And then,

11:25

you know, I was like, I told the doorman of the building. I was like, don't let her up any longer.

you know, I was like, I told the doorman of the building. I was like, don't let her up any longer.

11:32

If she has juice, accept it, but don't let her. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Alright. But then the other part is we would still order shoes from her to our office all the time. I was like, I'm not sure if they like this or not. Yeah. Yeah. That's the brutal point. You definitely drink a lot of our spit. I have to imagine.

If she has juice, accept it, but don't let her. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Alright. But then the other part is we would still order shoes from her to our office all the time. I was like, I'm not sure if they like this or not. Yeah. Yeah. That's the brutal point. You definitely drink a lot of our spit. I have to imagine.

11:48

Yeah. That's probably true too. Yeah. But the reality is we, like, the the logo didn't come from Native Juice. It came from Harry's. She just happened to also copy the Harry's logo. That's what she She might have done the same thing. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. That's probably true too. Yeah. But the reality is we, like, the the logo didn't come from Native Juice. It came from Harry's. She just happened to also copy the Harry's logo. That's what she She might have done the same thing. That's right. Yeah.

12:02

Alright. So you said you had some ideas for us.

Alright. So you said you had some ideas for us.

12:05

What business ideas do you have on your brain right now? Okay. I I thought about a lot of these ideas for a while. I think the first idea that someone should start, if I if I were starting a business today and really excited about it. I'd start with, stock market for all residential real estate. I would say, okay. I'm gonna start buying residential real estate and

What business ideas do you have on your brain right now? Okay. I I thought about a lot of these ideas for a while. I think the first idea that someone should start, if I if I were starting a business today and really excited about it. I'd start with, stock market for all residential real estate. I would say, okay. I'm gonna start buying residential real estate and

12:24

you know, selling shares of that real estate that's rented outside by rental homes, and I would sell shares of that real estate sort of like a traditional LP would invest. But I'd make a really liquid market on my site. So I'd say, you know what? Rent have gone up. You paid ten thousand dollars. You're waiting for us to sell this home it'll be like, you know, if you buy an apartment building today, if you're an LP in an apartment building, you're waiting for the GP to sell the apartment building before you get re or you can realize all of your cash back. You might be getting a steady stream of income every quarter, but when the GP sells the apartment building, that's where you get most of your money back. Just create a liquid market for all of these things. And I slowly start buying every single house in a neighborhood. And I would say you can only buy and sell shares of this house on this platform.

you know, selling shares of that real estate that's rented outside by rental homes, and I would sell shares of that real estate sort of like a traditional LP would invest. But I'd make a really liquid market on my site. So I'd say, you know what? Rent have gone up. You paid ten thousand dollars. You're waiting for us to sell this home it'll be like, you know, if you buy an apartment building today, if you're an LP in an apartment building, you're waiting for the GP to sell the apartment building before you get re or you can realize all of your cash back. You might be getting a steady stream of income every quarter, but when the GP sells the apartment building, that's where you get most of your money back. Just create a liquid market for all of these things. And I slowly start buying every single house in a neighborhood. And I would say you can only buy and sell shares of this house on this platform.

13:06

And then what I would do is I would empower local entrepreneurs to buy and sell houses on the platform themselves too. I'd say, okay. You know what? Sean is gonna buy a house. He lives in this neighborhood in in California.

And then what I would do is I would empower local entrepreneurs to buy and sell houses on the platform themselves too. I'd say, okay. You know what? Sean is gonna buy a house. He lives in this neighborhood in in California.

13:17

He can buy a house, put it on this platform, raise money, and buy and sell and other people can buy and sell shares of this house through this platform. And then Sean will get reviews just like on Amazon. And, like, if he does a really good job, people will give him five star reviews because they're getting a lot of money from it. If he does a really shitty job, people will give him one star reviews because he's doing a really shitty job. And then when you go to underwrite new deals, people will be like Sean is trustworthy. Sean is not trustworthy. And I think people have tried this in the past with things like, reality shares,

He can buy a house, put it on this platform, raise money, and buy and sell and other people can buy and sell shares of this house through this platform. And then Sean will get reviews just like on Amazon. And, like, if he does a really good job, people will give him five star reviews because they're getting a lot of money from it. If he does a really shitty job, people will give him one star reviews because he's doing a really shitty job. And then when you go to underwrite new deals, people will be like Sean is trustworthy. Sean is not trustworthy. And I think people have tried this in the past with things like, reality shares,

13:43

and a bunch of other shitty models of this. I think they've done a terrible job in part because they're not doing a good job underwriting. In part, they're doing it, they're they're betting on commercial properties,

and a bunch of other shitty models of this. I think they've done a terrible job in part because they're not doing a good job underwriting. In part, they're doing it, they're they're betting on commercial properties,

13:53

and in part because they're not creating a liquid market for it. And so I think that, when I think of, like, the biggest idea possible, I think that this idea could realistically

and in part because they're not creating a liquid market for it. And so I think that, when I think of, like, the biggest idea possible, I think that this idea could realistically

14:02

own, you know, two hundred years from now, this business should own the majority of real estate in the United States.

own, you know, two hundred years from now, this business should own the majority of real estate in the United States.

14:08

So let's break that down. So you said Sure. The reason that the current kinda like by a fraction of, you know, of real estate or by shares in real estate, which there's several or crowd funding for real estate. There's, like, fund rise, realty shares. You're saying the problems that they have is let's take them one by one. So you said they're focused on commercial. Why is residential better than commercial for this?

So let's break that down. So you said Sure. The reason that the current kinda like by a fraction of, you know, of real estate or by shares in real estate, which there's several or crowd funding for real estate. There's, like, fund rise, realty shares. You're saying the problems that they have is let's take them one by one. So you said they're focused on commercial. Why is residential better than commercial for this?

14:31

Way easier in terms of steady income streams. So, like, if you bill if let's say you buy a building that Starbucks is using and has a five year lease on, when Starbucks leaves that building,

Way easier in terms of steady income streams. So, like, if you bill if let's say you buy a building that Starbucks is using and has a five year lease on, when Starbucks leaves that building,

14:42

it's unclear who will be a good fit for that building. Like, it's not easy to rent that thing out. While if it's a house, everyone in the world needs a three bedroom two bath house.

it's unclear who will be a good fit for that building. Like, it's not easy to rent that thing out. While if it's a house, everyone in the world needs a three bedroom two bath house.

14:51

In a neighborhood. And so it's a lot easier to re let properties that are residential as opposed to commercial. I invested in the company, somewhat in the space. It was called Dorothy. It was

In a neighborhood. And so it's a lot easier to re let properties that are residential as opposed to commercial. I invested in the company, somewhat in the space. It was called Dorothy. It was

15:00

it didn't work out. But the guy who started previously started Stay Alfred, which I don't know if you remember that one or not, but basically you could it was like a it was an auction website for homes.

it didn't work out. But the guy who started previously started Stay Alfred, which I don't know if you remember that one or not, but basically you could it was like a it was an auction website for homes.

15:10

And there they had two issues. One, it which is I'm shocked by this, but people just didn't wanna buy a home online. It was just like a big it was a it's a big thing that they couldn't figure out how to address. I think someone will figure it out. But the second thing was negotiating the whole broker industry, which, like, seems like the broker industry I know there was just, like, a big settlement, like, five days ago. The broker industry has, like, has this industry by the balls it seems.

And there they had two issues. One, it which is I'm shocked by this, but people just didn't wanna buy a home online. It was just like a big it was a it's a big thing that they couldn't figure out how to address. I think someone will figure it out. But the second thing was negotiating the whole broker industry, which, like, seems like the broker industry I know there was just, like, a big settlement, like, five days ago. The broker industry has, like, has this industry by the balls it seems.

15:34

It's real it seems really challenging. Yeah. And it wasn't a settlement. It was a jury verdict of two billion dollars that went against the Yeah. Not settlement. Of realtors. Like, yeah. Yeah. And so, like, yes, the I think the broker industry is broken, but the rent the, like, the liquidity market for real estate investing is huge. And when you think about it, like, You know, all these retail investors are now, like, let me invest in a startup. You know how crazy it is for, for you to invest in, like, native when early on. Like, I have no fucking idea what I'm doing. I don't know if I'm gonna get hit by a bus tomorrow. I might just be like, fuck it. You know what? Like, I'm dating this crazy girl, and she wants to go to Hawaii for three months. Fuck this. This is gonna be way this is gonna be way more fun than running a business for the next three months. So, investing in real like, if you're gonna invest in startups,

It's real it seems really challenging. Yeah. And it wasn't a settlement. It was a jury verdict of two billion dollars that went against the Yeah. Not settlement. Of realtors. Like, yeah. Yeah. And so, like, yes, the I think the broker industry is broken, but the rent the, like, the liquidity market for real estate investing is huge. And when you think about it, like, You know, all these retail investors are now, like, let me invest in a startup. You know how crazy it is for, for you to invest in, like, native when early on. Like, I have no fucking idea what I'm doing. I don't know if I'm gonna get hit by a bus tomorrow. I might just be like, fuck it. You know what? Like, I'm dating this crazy girl, and she wants to go to Hawaii for three months. Fuck this. This is gonna be way this is gonna be way more fun than running a business for the next three months. So, investing in real like, if you're gonna invest in startups,

16:19

what like, you know, you know, it's way safer than investing in a startup, investing in real down your street where you're like, I know who's gonna rent this house. I, like, you know, I can monitor it. I can drive by it. It's a tangible piece of property. It is like, you know, if this guy doesn't pay rent, somebody else will. It's not going anywhere. It's way safer. And I think what I think when I think of retail investors, I think retail investors would be way more excited about investing in the local community they live in. And being like, yeah, I own a share of this house, then they do being like, I invested in this Pakistani guy who, really looks and he seems not to be that reliable.

what like, you know, you know, it's way safer than investing in a startup, investing in real down your street where you're like, I know who's gonna rent this house. I, like, you know, I can monitor it. I can drive by it. It's a tangible piece of property. It is like, you know, if this guy doesn't pay rent, somebody else will. It's not going anywhere. It's way safer. And I think what I think when I think of retail investors, I think retail investors would be way more excited about investing in the local community they live in. And being like, yeah, I own a share of this house, then they do being like, I invested in this Pakistani guy who, really looks and he seems not to be that reliable.

16:51

And so you you have, like,

And so you you have, like,

16:55

this idea, why do you think that the person who's buying these rental properties these wants to do this just because they want the liquidity so they can go buy more properties.

this idea, why do you think that the person who's buying these rental properties these wants to do this just because they want the liquidity so they can go buy more properties.

17:03

Like, what what what happens here? And how much of the property you think would go on the platform versus they own, you know, like, would they, like, in an IPO, you know, they they issue twenty percent of their stock or whatever to the public. What would you what would it be for the house? Yeah. I think it's really the GP can be like, look, I wanna, like, the guy who's sort of underwriting the deal and sponsoring the deal for Better for, worse is could be like, look, I'm gonna put it This house cost two hundred thousand dollars, I'm gonna put in fifty thousand dollars of my own money, or I'm gonna put in twenty thousand dollars of my own money. And in that same way, that other like, right now, if you invest in a much larger, if you invest in a private equity fund, one of the common questions you'll ask is the guy running a private equity fund, how much of their own money is at risk? Because that means that they care and believe in their private equity fund. Similarly here could be the same question. How much of your wealth are how much investment are you putting in this real estate when you, purchase it? And the reason that the sponsors would wanna do this is several hold. One is They wanna create a liquid mark. They they wanna raise money. Right? Like, they wanna raise money from retail investors, and it's really hard to re raise money from retail investors.

Like, what what what happens here? And how much of the property you think would go on the platform versus they own, you know, like, would they, like, in an IPO, you know, they they issue twenty percent of their stock or whatever to the public. What would you what would it be for the house? Yeah. I think it's really the GP can be like, look, I wanna, like, the guy who's sort of underwriting the deal and sponsoring the deal for Better for, worse is could be like, look, I'm gonna put it This house cost two hundred thousand dollars, I'm gonna put in fifty thousand dollars of my own money, or I'm gonna put in twenty thousand dollars of my own money. And in that same way, that other like, right now, if you invest in a much larger, if you invest in a private equity fund, one of the common questions you'll ask is the guy running a private equity fund, how much of their own money is at risk? Because that means that they care and believe in their private equity fund. Similarly here could be the same question. How much of your wealth are how much investment are you putting in this real estate when you, purchase it? And the reason that the sponsors would wanna do this is several hold. One is They wanna create a liquid mark. They they wanna raise money. Right? Like, they wanna raise money from retail investors, and it's really hard to re raise money from retail investors.

18:05

Two is they can buy and sell shares of later on for themselves as well. They could be like, you know what? I bought forty thousand dollars worth of this house. Five years later, that forty thousand is worth eighty thousand. I want some cash off the table, but I still want some liquidity. I'm gonna sell forty thousand dollars of shares.

Two is they can buy and sell shares of later on for themselves as well. They could be like, you know what? I bought forty thousand dollars worth of this house. Five years later, that forty thousand is worth eighty thousand. I want some cash off the table, but I still want some liquidity. I'm gonna sell forty thousand dollars of shares.

18:19

In this house and keep some, money invested as well. So I think for the same reason that people wanna invest in the stock market or, you know, sponsors,

In this house and keep some, money invested as well. So I think for the same reason that people wanna invest in the stock market or, you know, sponsors,

18:28

invest their own deals,

invest their own deals,

18:30

you know, sponsors and this would invest as well. So, Moiz, I'm gonna pitch you three other real estate ideas in rapid succession. I want you to tell me your favorite to your least favorite.

you know, sponsors and this would invest as well. So, Moiz, I'm gonna pitch you three other real estate ideas in rapid succession. I want you to tell me your favorite to your least favorite.

18:40

Okay. Alright.

Okay. Alright.

18:41

The first one is this company I didn't invest in, but I I regret I don't know how it's doing. I haven't talked to the guy in a while, I I regret not investing because I I thought it was a good idea. It's called home option. So what he's doing is this guy goes to,

The first one is this company I didn't invest in, but I I regret I don't know how it's doing. I haven't talked to the guy in a while, I I regret not investing because I I thought it was a good idea. It's called home option. So what he's doing is this guy goes to,

18:54

Sam, Sam owns a house. He goes to Sam and says, Sam, I know you're not trying to sell the house right now, but here's the deal.

Sam, Sam owns a house. He goes to Sam and says, Sam, I know you're not trying to sell the house right now, but here's the deal.

19:01

I'll give you twelve hundred dollars right now. And all I ask for is that when you do decide to sell,

I'll give you twelve hundred dollars right now. And all I ask for is that when you do decide to sell,

19:08

you let me, you know, I own the option to be the broker on the house. So, like, you know, I'll be your agent. And, and actually what I do is I'm not myself the agent, but I partner with top agents in your network. They don't know when you're gonna sell your house, and they don't wanna keep having to knock on your door and bother you. So I'll give you cash today so that they can be your bro you know, and one of these top agents gets the right to be your broker twenty years from now whenever you sell.

you let me, you know, I own the option to be the broker on the house. So, like, you know, I'll be your agent. And, and actually what I do is I'm not myself the agent, but I partner with top agents in your network. They don't know when you're gonna sell your house, and they don't wanna keep having to knock on your door and bother you. So I'll give you cash today so that they can be your bro you know, and one of these top agents gets the right to be your broker twenty years from now whenever you sell.

19:30

And, they're just buying up options.

And, they're just buying up options.

19:34

The the right to sell these homes, because a a home when you sell, you know, the brokers take

The the right to sell these homes, because a a home when you sell, you know, the brokers take

19:38

Let's just say let's just say the sell side's gonna take three percent.

Let's just say let's just say the sell side's gonna take three percent.

19:42

You know, they're they're gonna let's say the average is fifteen thousand dollars or something. For that for that sale. They're willing to buy that option today for a thousand dollars. And so, that's idea number one, home options. Go and go out there and buy that.

You know, they're they're gonna let's say the average is fifteen thousand dollars or something. For that for that sale. They're willing to buy that option today for a thousand dollars. And so, that's idea number one, home options. Go and go out there and buy that.

19:54

Alright. ID number two is yep. I invested in it.

Alright. ID number two is yep. I invested in it.

20:03

The only thing that could have made me feel worse about not investing in this is that Sam the best business isn't doing well because I've I've every, like, three months, I think about this business, I think, That's gotta kill. I went through my email, and I haven't gotten an update from them in, like, a a while. So that's not a good sign. Yeah. Which unfortunately means it's probably not, or it's absolutely crushing it. One of the two.

The only thing that could have made me feel worse about not investing in this is that Sam the best business isn't doing well because I've I've every, like, three months, I think about this business, I think, That's gotta kill. I went through my email, and I haven't gotten an update from them in, like, a a while. So that's not a good sign. Yeah. Which unfortunately means it's probably not, or it's absolutely crushing it. One of the two.

20:26

You know, I I used to think that's always a bad sign, but then I started hanging out with, Moises brother, and he never he's like investor update. Why would I I'm gonna kill it in this business. Why should I tell you about how it's going? I need to know this. Yeah. That's right.

You know, I I used to think that's always a bad sign, but then I started hanging out with, Moises brother, and he never he's like investor update. Why would I I'm gonna kill it in this business. Why should I tell you about how it's going? I need to know this. Yeah. That's right.

20:38

Do you are you that way too much? Do do you, like Yeah. With Do you provide updates or anything? One of our investors, was this guy named Jeff Hollinder from seventh generation And he's like, you know, what'd be nice is, like, a monthly or quarterly investment update. And I was, like, here's your money back. I'm, you know, you you and I will never chat until I call you.

Do you are you that way too much? Do do you, like Yeah. With Do you provide updates or anything? One of our investors, was this guy named Jeff Hollinder from seventh generation And he's like, you know, what'd be nice is, like, a monthly or quarterly investment update. And I was, like, here's your money back. I'm, you know, you you and I will never chat until I call you.

20:55

And if you're not okay with that,

And if you're not okay with that,

20:58

I don't ever yeah. Yeah. I'm, like, I was, like, I couldn't care. Like, I will never send you one piece of information about this business unless, I want to. Unless I need something for you. I don't think it's good high good hygiene to, like, you know, just kind of even for your own thoughts to be, like, are we doing? Let's just let me take a step back here for a second and just write down kind of for my own clarity of thought or no.

I don't ever yeah. Yeah. I'm, like, I was, like, I couldn't care. Like, I will never send you one piece of information about this business unless, I want to. Unless I need something for you. I don't think it's good high good hygiene to, like, you know, just kind of even for your own thoughts to be, like, are we doing? Let's just let me take a step back here for a second and just write down kind of for my own clarity of thought or no.

21:18

I think that is good hygiene, but I don't necessarily have to share that with other people, especially with other people, like, you know,

I think that is good hygiene, but I don't necessarily have to share that with other people, especially with other people, like, you know,

21:24

I think the three of us are probably investors and similar businesses.

I think the three of us are probably investors and similar businesses.

21:28

And, you know, oftentimes I walk around and people are like, here are the numbers of this other business, and I'm like, you know, somebody has leaked it to them. And I'm trying to be really careful as an investor to never leak information because I know I would never want my information leaked, but, like, that information gets around the street. And I, you know, I've seen so many startups launch because they're like, I heard this guy was doing really well, so I should just do the same thing. Like, how many competitors of athletic greens exist? Because everyone's like, yeah. Know if Buddy Greens is doing really well. Right. What are the other two, Sean? Alright. Second second idea. This is your brother's idea, actually. I don't know if he told you this one.

And, you know, oftentimes I walk around and people are like, here are the numbers of this other business, and I'm like, you know, somebody has leaked it to them. And I'm trying to be really careful as an investor to never leak information because I know I would never want my information leaked, but, like, that information gets around the street. And I, you know, I've seen so many startups launch because they're like, I heard this guy was doing really well, so I should just do the same thing. Like, how many competitors of athletic greens exist? Because everyone's like, yeah. Know if Buddy Greens is doing really well. Right. What are the other two, Sean? Alright. Second second idea. This is your brother's idea, actually. I don't know if he told you this one.

22:00

Pipe for real estate.

Pipe for real estate.

22:02

So,

So,

22:03

I think I could share this now because he's he's talked about this, like, I don't know, a year ago and he didn't end up doing it.

I think I could share this now because he's he's talked about this, like, I don't know, a year ago and he didn't end up doing it.

22:09

Pipe for real estate, the idea here is, you're a landlord. You're gonna collect rent every month.

Pipe for real estate, the idea here is, you're a landlord. You're gonna collect rent every month.

22:15

Pipe came through and was like, hey, turn those, monthly checks into one annual check, and I'll take a eight percent fee off the top. So let's say you're gonna get a hundred grand of rent from this property.

Pipe came through and was like, hey, turn those, monthly checks into one annual check, and I'll take a eight percent fee off the top. So let's say you're gonna get a hundred grand of rent from this property.

22:26

I'll give you ninety two thousand today. I get to keep the hundred.

I'll give you ninety two thousand today. I get to keep the hundred.

22:30

And you get you get ninety two thousand that you can go invest in your next property. You get or or put into tenant improvements that will let you raise rents or something like that. Here's cash flow today up front. So pipe for real estate.

And you get you get ninety two thousand that you can go invest in your next property. You get or or put into tenant improvements that will let you raise rents or something like that. Here's cash flow today up front. So pipe for real estate.

22:42

Real estate's a huge market.

Real estate's a huge market.

22:44

Why why do landlords have to wait to collect the check?

Why why do landlords have to wait to collect the check?

22:48

No more waiting is our slogan. Alright. Now idea number three, final idea.

No more waiting is our slogan. Alright. Now idea number three, final idea.

22:53

I did invest in this one. So steady capital. So steady dot capital is their their URL. So they were like, hey, look. Everybody knows. That most will most millionaires build their wealth through real estate. That's that is a time tested, you know, approach to wealth building

I did invest in this one. So steady capital. So steady dot capital is their their URL. So they were like, hey, look. Everybody knows. That most will most millionaires build their wealth through real estate. That's that is a time tested, you know, approach to wealth building

23:08

most people actually even want. They would love to own

most people actually even want. They would love to own

23:11

a rental property and beginning a rent check every month, but most people don't know don't trust themselves to find a property,

a rental property and beginning a rent check every month, but most people don't know don't trust themselves to find a property,

23:18

you know, vet it, buy it, manage it, all of that. And so they were like, we'll do a robinhood for real estate type of thing where

you know, vet it, buy it, manage it, all of that. And so they were like, we'll do a robinhood for real estate type of thing where

23:26

You just decide how much monthly you wanna put into real estate. You say, like, I'm I'm willing to put it away five hundred dollars a month into real estate.

You just decide how much monthly you wanna put into real estate. You say, like, I'm I'm willing to put it away five hundred dollars a month into real estate.

23:33

And they basically

And they basically

23:34

let you take the five hundred bucks. They'll put it into a real estate project that they are kind of vetting,

let you take the five hundred bucks. They'll put it into a real estate project that they are kind of vetting,

23:40

from, like, proven, operators.

from, like, proven, operators.

23:42

And then they every month, they'll say, hey, here's an, you know, you got a hundred and twelve dollars of, you know, rental income from your property this month. Yeah. Or you you now own, you know, pieces of these six properties in six different markets, and you're making six hundred dollars a month of rental income. Like, I I put five grand into one deal, and I just get this check every month now, and it's actually

And then they every month, they'll say, hey, here's an, you know, you got a hundred and twelve dollars of, you know, rental income from your property this month. Yeah. Or you you now own, you know, pieces of these six properties in six different markets, and you're making six hundred dollars a month of rental income. Like, I I put five grand into one deal, and I just get this check every month now, and it's actually

24:01

the first real estate that I've done that I didn't own because

the first real estate that I've done that I didn't own because

24:04

otherwise it just stayed on my to do list. Alright. So those are the three ideas. Home options,

otherwise it just stayed on my to do list. Alright. So those are the three ideas. Home options,

24:09

pipe for real estate. Yep. And Robin, this is real estate. Yeah. Of the, yeah, steady capital.

pipe for real estate. Yep. And Robin, this is real estate. Yeah. Of the, yeah, steady capital.

24:15

Give me rank them from your most favorite least favorite. Go ahead. Okay. I I wasn't like it. I was expecting, home options would be number three when you told me about it, but in fact, it's number one.

Give me rank them from your most favorite least favorite. Go ahead. Okay. I I wasn't like it. I was expecting, home options would be number three when you told me about it, but in fact, it's number one.

24:25

Steady capital and then pet for real estate.

Steady capital and then pet for real estate.

24:28

And I'll tell you why.

And I'll tell you why.

24:30

Pet for real estate exists, and it's just called the cash out refi. Like, you know, that already exists where you're like, look, I'm getting real you know, I'm getting money from these landlord, from these tenants, and I can take cash off the, out of the property. Like, you know what's not gonna happen for pipe for real estate? Is someone's gonna come in and be like, wow. You're a hundred percent levered up with this debt? Let me also give you more cash. You were already paying for the debt. You know, you're already levered. So I think pipe for real estate exists.

Pet for real estate exists, and it's just called the cash out refi. Like, you know, that already exists where you're like, look, I'm getting real you know, I'm getting money from these landlord, from these tenants, and I can take cash off the, out of the property. Like, you know what's not gonna happen for pipe for real estate? Is someone's gonna come in and be like, wow. You're a hundred percent levered up with this debt? Let me also give you more cash. You were already paying for the debt. You know, you're already levered. So I think pipe for real estate exists.

24:56

And I think, you know, Mark Laura, started this company and you just raised three hundred fifty million dollars. Did you guys read this thing? I'm not entirely sure what it is, but it appears to be like a restaurant delivery business.

And I think, you know, Mark Laura, started this company and you just raised three hundred fifty million dollars. Did you guys read this thing? I'm not entirely sure what it is, but it appears to be like a restaurant delivery business.

25:06

Where he partners with, like, you know, fancy. I think. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And, so I I feel like I'm not sure if this is the case, but it seems like that's sort of like a A startup branding to something that kinda exists in the in the space. I feel like pipe for real estate is the same. Mark bought Blue Apron. Oh, she bought Blue Apron. I do this a soul for a hundred two million dollars. I didn't know he was the cash behind it. Yeah. He bought it. Yeah. So he is you I think you're you've nailed it. That sounds like that's what he's doing. But go ahead. Yeah.

Where he partners with, like, you know, fancy. I think. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And, so I I feel like I'm not sure if this is the case, but it seems like that's sort of like a A startup branding to something that kinda exists in the in the space. I feel like pipe for real estate is the same. Mark bought Blue Apron. Oh, she bought Blue Apron. I do this a soul for a hundred two million dollars. I didn't know he was the cash behind it. Yeah. He bought it. Yeah. So he is you I think you're you've nailed it. That sounds like that's what he's doing. But go ahead. Yeah.

25:33

Home options is, like, you know, I think the hard part of that home options is right now, like, particularly in the last week, right now, we don't know what reloads or commissions are gonna look like in the future. And you also just don't know how long an option this is, as the twelve hundred dollars in the ground today for twenty years or thirty years, That's a really long period of time. I think What he's doing is he's just reselling it right away, or at least that's what I would do is I would buy the option I would bundle them up and I would just tell them to the brokerage

Home options is, like, you know, I think the hard part of that home options is right now, like, particularly in the last week, right now, we don't know what reloads or commissions are gonna look like in the future. And you also just don't know how long an option this is, as the twelve hundred dollars in the ground today for twenty years or thirty years, That's a really long period of time. I think What he's doing is he's just reselling it right away, or at least that's what I would do is I would buy the option I would bundle them up and I would just tell them to the brokerage

26:00

tomorrow, you know, and just say, hey, you you can hold these and, you know, try trying to get the I don't know if the economics all work. I don't know if the brokers are willing to do things like that. Yeah. But, like, I think that's the idea. Yeah. I like it. It's innovative and, like, different and un like, you know, unclear what'll happen, but, like, you could revolutionize an industry that, you know, has been the same for the last one hundred and fifty years. God damn it. Sam's gonna be a part of that revolution. It can also be the six percent drops down to two percent in the next, you know, three months because, you know, the national association realtors is almost certainly bankrupt at this point. What was the settlement and what's changing about this broker situation? Yeah. It wasn't a settlement. It was two billion dollars. Not entirely sure what it what it was. It was like price fixing across realtors,

tomorrow, you know, and just say, hey, you you can hold these and, you know, try trying to get the I don't know if the economics all work. I don't know if the brokers are willing to do things like that. Yeah. But, like, I think that's the idea. Yeah. I like it. It's innovative and, like, different and un like, you know, unclear what'll happen, but, like, you could revolutionize an industry that, you know, has been the same for the last one hundred and fifty years. God damn it. Sam's gonna be a part of that revolution. It can also be the six percent drops down to two percent in the next, you know, three months because, you know, the national association realtors is almost certainly bankrupt at this point. What was the settlement and what's changing about this broker situation? Yeah. It wasn't a settlement. It was two billion dollars. Not entirely sure what it what it was. It was like price fixing across realtors,

26:40

basically saying, hey, you can't be on MLS unless you agree to pay everyone, like a six percent or five percent brokerage. Something to that effect. I haven't gotten into into the details of that. But, like, the judgment was two billion dollars, and I read this Wall Street Journal article where once the judgment was had, But, plaintiff's firms, you know, file lawsuits against the National Association realisers in every single state. And they're like, we think that we'll get forty billion dollars in judgments as a result of this. Which will certainly bankrupt that organization. Can you talk a little bit about this founder's card thing? Because I know you've been tweeting about that for, like, two years now, and I'm and that actually surprised me that you were interested in it. You know, there's I feel like there's, there's a, a club that I'm a part of, like, a Founder's Card sort of thing that I'm a part of that I can't talk about the, the name of it because they would ask me not to. But with, like, as a result of paying my hundred dollar a month, and, monthly, membership fee, I get a discount that's worth, like, you know, eight hundred dollars a month to myself. What do you get a discount for? Just SaaS software that I'm, like, really want. I have to pay for. But do you have to be a new customer. For a lot of those cards, you have to be a new customer. No. This one you don't. Yeah. Wow. You just pay a hundred dollars a month and they're Here is discounts to, like, let's say MailChimp, but let's say Shopify and, like, all these other SaaS platforms that an e-commerce company might wanna be a part of. Or might want discounts too. And so then you go and say, great. I paid a hundred dollars. I get all these discounts, and I'm gonna go use those discounts for, for, for, for, for my business. And so you never are gonna cancel that hundred dollars a month subscription because that hundred dollars is actually saving you a thousand dollars a month. And, I don't understand why there aren't more of these smaller niche industries. And I think, like, e commerce is a great one. Like, you know what P&G does? They go and they, they go to, like, Snapchat and Pinterest and Facebook, and they say, look, We're gonna spend

basically saying, hey, you can't be on MLS unless you agree to pay everyone, like a six percent or five percent brokerage. Something to that effect. I haven't gotten into into the details of that. But, like, the judgment was two billion dollars, and I read this Wall Street Journal article where once the judgment was had, But, plaintiff's firms, you know, file lawsuits against the National Association realisers in every single state. And they're like, we think that we'll get forty billion dollars in judgments as a result of this. Which will certainly bankrupt that organization. Can you talk a little bit about this founder's card thing? Because I know you've been tweeting about that for, like, two years now, and I'm and that actually surprised me that you were interested in it. You know, there's I feel like there's, there's a, a club that I'm a part of, like, a Founder's Card sort of thing that I'm a part of that I can't talk about the, the name of it because they would ask me not to. But with, like, as a result of paying my hundred dollar a month, and, monthly, membership fee, I get a discount that's worth, like, you know, eight hundred dollars a month to myself. What do you get a discount for? Just SaaS software that I'm, like, really want. I have to pay for. But do you have to be a new customer. For a lot of those cards, you have to be a new customer. No. This one you don't. Yeah. Wow. You just pay a hundred dollars a month and they're Here is discounts to, like, let's say MailChimp, but let's say Shopify and, like, all these other SaaS platforms that an e-commerce company might wanna be a part of. Or might want discounts too. And so then you go and say, great. I paid a hundred dollars. I get all these discounts, and I'm gonna go use those discounts for, for, for, for, for my business. And so you never are gonna cancel that hundred dollars a month subscription because that hundred dollars is actually saving you a thousand dollars a month. And, I don't understand why there aren't more of these smaller niche industries. And I think, like, e commerce is a great one. Like, you know what P&G does? They go and they, they go to, like, Snapchat and Pinterest and Facebook, and they say, look, We're gonna spend

28:24

fifty mil two hundred and fifty million dollars across our portfolio on your platform, but we need to discount because you know, we're spending so much money. And they get that discount. They get it from Facebook for sure because I've seen it. I'm pretty sure Pinterest and I'm pretty sure Snapchat.

fifty mil two hundred and fifty million dollars across our portfolio on your platform, but we need to discount because you know, we're spending so much money. And they get that discount. They get it from Facebook for sure because I've seen it. I'm pretty sure Pinterest and I'm pretty sure Snapchat.

28:39

I guarantee they get it to Facebook, discount for Facebook because I've seen it. I, you know, I saw it when I was running Native as a part of P&G. And So I'm not sure why smaller businesses don't be organized and say, look, we're spending this much. Let us also try and negotiate discounts with platforms. Why don't we all negotiate a discount with Yotpo or with Okendo

I guarantee they get it to Facebook, discount for Facebook because I've seen it. I, you know, I saw it when I was running Native as a part of P&G. And So I'm not sure why smaller businesses don't be organized and say, look, we're spending this much. Let us also try and negotiate discounts with platforms. Why don't we all negotiate a discount with Yotpo or with Okendo

28:56

or with Postscript or with Klaviyo

or with Postscript or with Klaviyo

28:59

and say, look, there's gonna be four hundred of us together. A lot of us are gonna use this software, but we need a big discount that's a lifetime. But that's a, like, a lifetime monthly recurring discount. And so sorry. You have one of these this is not an idea. You're saying you have one of these cards, but you're saying, it's like a secret. Like, you don't, they don't they don't want more people to have the card or what. Correct. They would now want me to talk about who they are. But, yes, as a result, I get discounts to software that I wouldn't, get otherwise, and it cost me a hundred or a hundred and forty dollars a month. Why don't they wanna talk about Yeah. Great question. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm sure they would tell me not to talk.

and say, look, there's gonna be four hundred of us together. A lot of us are gonna use this software, but we need a big discount that's a lifetime. But that's a, like, a lifetime monthly recurring discount. And so sorry. You have one of these this is not an idea. You're saying you have one of these cards, but you're saying, it's like a secret. Like, you don't, they don't they don't want more people to have the card or what. Correct. They would now want me to talk about who they are. But, yes, as a result, I get discounts to software that I wouldn't, get otherwise, and it cost me a hundred or a hundred and forty dollars a month. Why don't they wanna talk about Yeah. Great question. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm sure they would tell me not to talk.

29:32

You think it will be one hundred dollars a month? Well, like, there's Yeah. It won't be one more customer.

You think it will be one hundred dollars a month? Well, like, there's Yeah. It won't be one more customer.

29:37

Some spidey sense is going off here.

Some spidey sense is going off here.

29:40

You know, like, what's going on? Why? I mean, is this, a shady thing? Sam, this was this was your idea.

You know, like, what's going on? Why? I mean, is this, a shady thing? Sam, this was this was your idea.

29:47

Like, you not your idea originally, but, like, Sam told I mean, I don't know, seven years ago when you were running the hustle, were like, I'm trying to think of a new product,

Like, you not your idea originally, but, like, Sam told I mean, I don't know, seven years ago when you were running the hustle, were like, I'm trying to think of a new product,

29:55

and you had three ideas. And I I remember one of them was basically trends, which is the thing you ended up launching.

and you had three ideas. And I I remember one of them was basically trends, which is the thing you ended up launching.

30:02

Another one was,

Another one was,

30:04

this idea for the founders club car or whatever, which was I think you were comparing it to the AARP. You're like AARP for

this idea for the founders club car or whatever, which was I think you were comparing it to the AARP. You're like AARP for

30:12

kinda like millennials or Well, a yeah. And I could talk about the ARP in a second, but yeah. That was, the second one. What was the third one? Oh, you had you had one more. I don't remember that third one. But And I thought the card was the best idea. I was like, oh, you should for sure do this card if I had this on. And in fact, I actually now I'm just gonna do the card off of the MFM audience because I'm like, this is way better and it's a win win.

kinda like millennials or Well, a yeah. And I could talk about the ARP in a second, but yeah. That was, the second one. What was the third one? Oh, you had you had one more. I don't remember that third one. But And I thought the card was the best idea. I was like, oh, you should for sure do this card if I had this on. And in fact, I actually now I'm just gonna do the card off of the MFM audience because I'm like, this is way better and it's a win win.

30:31

I I might be a few months ahead of you.

I I might be a few months ahead of you.

30:34

Why didn't you do that card? The reason why I did was I couldn't find, I couldn't figure out entirely how to differentiate from all the other offerings that already existed.

Why didn't you do that card? The reason why I did was I couldn't find, I couldn't figure out entirely how to differentiate from all the other offerings that already existed.

30:45

It was also quite challenging to get in with some of the brands in order to negotiate bulk deals. The argument being

It was also quite challenging to get in with some of the brands in order to negotiate bulk deals. The argument being

30:52

Well,

Well,

30:53

you know, these companies already spent with us. Why am I gonna give them a discount? And I couldn't come up with, like, the perfect rebuttal for that. And that, like, that is where I I was trying to figure out how to make it happen. And what is the rebuttal to that? The rebuttal for that is your competitors are offering it. Right? So you basically have to go get the number two Yes. Of every space and say, hey, we can move you some customers

you know, these companies already spent with us. Why am I gonna give them a discount? And I couldn't come up with, like, the perfect rebuttal for that. And that, like, that is where I I was trying to figure out how to make it happen. And what is the rebuttal to that? The rebuttal for that is your competitors are offering it. Right? So you basically have to go get the number two Yes. Of every space and say, hey, we can move you some customers

31:14

if you make this attractive. And then you go back to number one, you say, hey. Number two is offering this and there people are moving.

if you make this attractive. And then you go back to number one, you say, hey. Number two is offering this and there people are moving.

31:20

You should match it.

You should match it.

31:22

Yeah. And, like, new people who get get in are gonna use number two instead of number one because they get the discount. Exactly. Exactly. And we we continue to have new customers, and we're just gonna keep telling them Yeah. Go with this company because they offer, you know, a benefit. And the reason why I was interested in it is AARP. So AARP,

Yeah. And, like, new people who get get in are gonna use number two instead of number one because they get the discount. Exactly. Exactly. And we we continue to have new customers, and we're just gonna keep telling them Yeah. Go with this company because they offer, you know, a benefit. And the reason why I was interested in it is AARP. So AARP,

31:38

I actually don't know what it stands for, but it's a club for people above sixty or fifty. I think fifty. American Association of retired persons. Yeah. So so I guess it's sixty.

I actually don't know what it stands for, but it's a club for people above sixty or fifty. I think fifty. American Association of retired persons. Yeah. So so I guess it's sixty.

31:48

They do about one and a half to two billion dollars a year in sales and they have millions and millions and millions and millions of members. The way they make business, revenue is I think they only charge about a hundred dollars a year to be a member. And, like, most everyone, when you turn sixty, you get an an invitation in your mail. And what you do is you get discounted health insurance, and they make

They do about one and a half to two billion dollars a year in sales and they have millions and millions and millions and millions of members. The way they make business, revenue is I think they only charge about a hundred dollars a year to be a member. And, like, most everyone, when you turn sixty, you get an an invitation in your mail. And what you do is you get discounted health insurance, and they make

32:10

another side of their business is making money. It's a, basically, an affiliate feed. So I think they partnered with UnitedHealth, and they have the UnitedHealth

another side of their business is making money. It's a, basically, an affiliate feed. So I think they partnered with UnitedHealth, and they have the UnitedHealth

32:16

AARP plan, which is discounted plan but also a a plant specifically for whatever, you know, sixty plus people have.

AARP plan, which is discounted plan but also a a plant specifically for whatever, you know, sixty plus people have.

32:23

And they are, I think, one of the largest lobbying groups in America. It's a huge lobbying group. They they they basically, like, kinda shaped the government in in some regard. And so I thought that was super fascinating. A really fascinating company that's existed for decades and is it gonna go away anytime soon? And there's all already other businesses doing this. Like, think about Y Combinator. We can get into Y Combinator. I think they're like, you get, you know, fifty thousand dollars of AWS credits. You get a bunch of, like, straight, processing charges for free. And, like, those businesses are, like, you're gonna grow. We're gonna make money at the end. But it also makes it look like, you know, when Y Combinator is selling you, give you a hundred twenty thousand dollars for seven percent, they're also, like, here are the other benefits that you get in this business. Right.

And they are, I think, one of the largest lobbying groups in America. It's a huge lobbying group. They they they basically, like, kinda shaped the government in in some regard. And so I thought that was super fascinating. A really fascinating company that's existed for decades and is it gonna go away anytime soon? And there's all already other businesses doing this. Like, think about Y Combinator. We can get into Y Combinator. I think they're like, you get, you know, fifty thousand dollars of AWS credits. You get a bunch of, like, straight, processing charges for free. And, like, those businesses are, like, you're gonna grow. We're gonna make money at the end. But it also makes it look like, you know, when Y Combinator is selling you, give you a hundred twenty thousand dollars for seven percent, they're also, like, here are the other benefits that you get in this business. Right.

33:02

So, anyway, I'm a bore with this. Do you wanna do one more? Yeah. What's the other idea? You had something around Shopify for high end or somethings for high end D2C? What was that idea? Yeah. Sure.

So, anyway, I'm a bore with this. Do you wanna do one more? Yeah. What's the other idea? You had something around Shopify for high end or somethings for high end D2C? What was that idea? Yeah. Sure.

33:12

You know, Shopify is fantastic. I'm a big shareholder in Shopify. I loved them. You know, I built my career on any commerce.

You know, Shopify is fantastic. I'm a big shareholder in Shopify. I loved them. You know, I built my career on any commerce.

33:19

The reality is it's wonderful for businesses going from zero to fifty million dollars.

The reality is it's wonderful for businesses going from zero to fifty million dollars.

33:24

It's awful for businesses nor it's not awful, but it's not good for businesses north of a hundred million dollars. That are ready to spend a lot more on improving their conversion rate on a custom checkout page. And, you know, if the Shopify people were here, they if the Shopify people were on this podcast with me, They'd say that's crazy. We have big businesses like figs and allbirds

It's awful for businesses nor it's not awful, but it's not good for businesses north of a hundred million dollars. That are ready to spend a lot more on improving their conversion rate on a custom checkout page. And, you know, if the Shopify people were here, they if the Shopify people were on this podcast with me, They'd say that's crazy. We have big businesses like figs and allbirds

33:41

and, a lot of other big businesses on it. But the reality is there's so many lock luck you can't customize so much, and it's so difficult, particularly on the checkout page, that I think there is room for somebody to come in and say, I'm to build my own shop of I'm going to build Shopify, but for businesses doing north of a hundred billion dollars. And there's a lot of businesses doing north of a hundred billion dollars that have left Shopify

and, a lot of other big businesses on it. But the reality is there's so many lock luck you can't customize so much, and it's so difficult, particularly on the checkout page, that I think there is room for somebody to come in and say, I'm to build my own shop of I'm going to build Shopify, but for businesses doing north of a hundred billion dollars. And there's a lot of businesses doing north of a hundred billion dollars that have left Shopify

34:02

you know, Away Travel, Ritual Vitamins because they're like, look, we've outgrown this platform. Where did they go? Probably, like, usually a custom built stack. Sometimes with, like, this backbone of an old brand of an old business called Spree, which I think was like this open source e commerce platform when you were growing your business, but I don't think it's around anymore. But they're out of, like, you know, they'll often go to their own custom tech platform because they're like, look, we're doing enough business that this makes sense. Which is a pain in the ass. It is a beta to the ass, but, like, you know, it's a pain in the ass is worth it when you're doing five hundred million dollars in revenue and a quarter, you know, quarter percentage point bump in conversion rate on your checkout page. Is gonna lead to an extra ten, twenty million dollars in revenue. It's it's it's it's completely worth it then. And, you know, like Shopify is one one page checkout.

you know, Away Travel, Ritual Vitamins because they're like, look, we've outgrown this platform. Where did they go? Probably, like, usually a custom built stack. Sometimes with, like, this backbone of an old brand of an old business called Spree, which I think was like this open source e commerce platform when you were growing your business, but I don't think it's around anymore. But they're out of, like, you know, they'll often go to their own custom tech platform because they're like, look, we're doing enough business that this makes sense. Which is a pain in the ass. It is a beta to the ass, but, like, you know, it's a pain in the ass is worth it when you're doing five hundred million dollars in revenue and a quarter, you know, quarter percentage point bump in conversion rate on your checkout page. Is gonna lead to an extra ten, twenty million dollars in revenue. It's it's it's it's completely worth it then. And, you know, like Shopify is one one page checkout.

34:45

Like, they launched that in the last six months. That's been something that people have been wanting for a really long time. Shopify subscriptions has been really bad, like, all subscription platforms have been really bad until more recently. So I think Shopify is trying to catch up on that larger, segment, but I think they've done a lot of that. That's not their focus. Their focus is You've decided you wanna start a business. You go, you know, in the shower, you come downstairs and you start Shopify store. That business is doing a hundred million dollars in revenue. You know, there are solutions that are competitive or more competitive than Shopify is. And they're worth it because small changes in your website are gonna be worth so much, and they're harder to do in Shopify than they are to do another brand. Yeah. Candidly, like, you know, Native was a fifty million dollar e commerce business built on WordPress. And the reason we did WordPress was because it was cheap way cheaper And because it allowed us a lot more customization. We could do post purchase pop ups at add to cart pop ups at a time where you couldn't un shoppify. We could do subscription that didn't charge us an L RN would allow to subscriptions that you can still came to on Shopify.

Like, they launched that in the last six months. That's been something that people have been wanting for a really long time. Shopify subscriptions has been really bad, like, all subscription platforms have been really bad until more recently. So I think Shopify is trying to catch up on that larger, segment, but I think they've done a lot of that. That's not their focus. Their focus is You've decided you wanna start a business. You go, you know, in the shower, you come downstairs and you start Shopify store. That business is doing a hundred million dollars in revenue. You know, there are solutions that are competitive or more competitive than Shopify is. And they're worth it because small changes in your website are gonna be worth so much, and they're harder to do in Shopify than they are to do another brand. Yeah. Candidly, like, you know, Native was a fifty million dollar e commerce business built on WordPress. And the reason we did WordPress was because it was cheap way cheaper And because it allowed us a lot more customization. We could do post purchase pop ups at add to cart pop ups at a time where you couldn't un shoppify. We could do subscription that didn't charge us an L RN would allow to subscriptions that you can still came to on Shopify.

35:42

You know, we could have our own servers, which, you know, you may or may not want based on Shopify. Could do instantaneous page loading, which couldn't do on Shopify. And so there were a lot of benefits for a business for it because it was open source versus Shopify. Yeah. You used the, three hundred dollar a year woo commerce, which is, like, the steal of the century and the miss of the century for a WordPress. Yeah. So three hundred dollars. It's free. It's free. With it free? Yeah. I mean, I I used it too. Yeah. I thought it Yeah. You know, all those features that he just ed were benefits.

You know, we could have our own servers, which, you know, you may or may not want based on Shopify. Could do instantaneous page loading, which couldn't do on Shopify. And so there were a lot of benefits for a business for it because it was open source versus Shopify. Yeah. You used the, three hundred dollar a year woo commerce, which is, like, the steal of the century and the miss of the century for a WordPress. Yeah. So three hundred dollars. It's free. It's free. With it free? Yeah. I mean, I I used it too. Yeah. I thought it Yeah. You know, all those features that he just ed were benefits.

36:09

That's not why he did it, to be clear. He picked it because he was, like, three thousand dollars for Shopify, outrageous. Over my dead body.

That's not why he did it, to be clear. He picked it because he was, like, three thousand dollars for Shopify, outrageous. Over my dead body.

36:16

I'd rather this business fail than pay you three thousand dollars. I had a business that was doing millions a year, and we used WooCommerce.

I'd rather this business fail than pay you three thousand dollars. I had a business that was doing millions a year, and we used WooCommerce.

36:22

And I remember, it's owned by WordPress now, I think. And I remember, like, looking at WordPress's revenue, I'm like, okay. So WordPress controls a third of the internet.

And I remember, it's owned by WordPress now, I think. And I remember, like, looking at WordPress's revenue, I'm like, okay. So WordPress controls a third of the internet.

36:30

And Shopify makes this much money, and yet they're giving this to me. What a bunch of idiots? You guys, like, like, you're it's a massive missed opportunity for WordPress. And WooCommerce is great. You just need a developer sometimes help you do some stuff. But it's still way cheaper than Shopify. That's right. But I'm like, really, it just goes to who, like, you know, we could we did a post-purchase pop up in Native, which was after you click checkout. We showed you a pop up saying buy travel size deodorant. We've probably sold seven hundred thousand dollars of those travel size deodorants every single month.

And Shopify makes this much money, and yet they're giving this to me. What a bunch of idiots? You guys, like, like, you're it's a massive missed opportunity for WordPress. And WooCommerce is great. You just need a developer sometimes help you do some stuff. But it's still way cheaper than Shopify. That's right. But I'm like, really, it just goes to who, like, you know, we could we did a post-purchase pop up in Native, which was after you click checkout. We showed you a pop up saying buy travel size deodorant. We've probably sold seven hundred thousand dollars of those travel size deodorants every single month.

36:59

And made, you know, four hundred thousand dollars in net profit off those travel size deodorants.

And made, you know, four hundred thousand dollars in net profit off those travel size deodorants.

37:04

And we could only do that in WordPress. We could not do that in Shopify.

And we could only do that in WordPress. We could not do that in Shopify.

37:07

You, you also had something you were like, I would do,

You, you also had something you were like, I would do,

37:11

Shopify apps

Shopify apps

37:13

for India or something. And I found this interesting because

for India or something. And I found this interesting because

37:16

Our Shopify

Our Shopify

37:17

app bill now granted,

app bill now granted,

37:19

I could go through and prune some apps that we're not using anymore that are probably still just recurringly charging me, but I think we spend, like, ten grand a month on Shopify add-ons. Do you really? It's insane. Because whatever you wanna do, they're like, oh, would you like to collect email addresses?

I could go through and prune some apps that we're not using anymore that are probably still just recurringly charging me, but I think we spend, like, ten grand a month on Shopify add-ons. Do you really? It's insane. Because whatever you wanna do, they're like, oh, would you like to collect email addresses?

37:35

Pay me fifteen hundred dollars a month. Like, for this pop up? Like, what are you talking about? And they're like, well, your store is big. And it's like, that doesn't matter. This is a email pop up. Well, who do what do How many people type the into the form? Like, Google forms is free. What are what are you talking about? And, like,

Pay me fifteen hundred dollars a month. Like, for this pop up? Like, what are you talking about? And they're like, well, your store is big. And it's like, that doesn't matter. This is a email pop up. Well, who do what do How many people type the into the form? Like, Google forms is free. What are what are you talking about? And, like,

37:49

every little thing, like, we added a post-purchase upsell and there was like nine hundred dollars a month. And it was like, what's happening? Why why would this be so expensive?

every little thing, like, we added a post-purchase upsell and there was like nine hundred dollars a month. And it was like, what's happening? Why why would this be so expensive?

37:58

All the review platforms are crazy expensive.

All the review platforms are crazy expensive.

38:01

Shopify apps or, you know, an absolute, like, rip off in the pricing. Totally. And and I think that, you know, if I were to if I were a developer at India, I'd be like, I'm gonna hire a team of you guys. We're gonna knock off every single app, and we're gonna charge twenty dollars a month. And that's gonna be our entire business model is twenty dollars a month. And, like, you know, The other thing I'd say is the more apps you use, the cheaper it gets. So if you're using five more apps instead of paying a hundred dollars, you're paying seventy five dollars. Get the, you know, like, There is no reason that just do no pop ups should be fifteen hundred dollars a month. There's no reason that a a post purchase upsell should be a percentage of revenue and not thirty dollars a month. And, the reality is that everyone's tiered percentages of revenue because you can make so much money doing that. And this is software that, like, you know, could have been written within a week or a week and a half by almost anybody,

Shopify apps or, you know, an absolute, like, rip off in the pricing. Totally. And and I think that, you know, if I were to if I were a developer at India, I'd be like, I'm gonna hire a team of you guys. We're gonna knock off every single app, and we're gonna charge twenty dollars a month. And that's gonna be our entire business model is twenty dollars a month. And, like, you know, The other thing I'd say is the more apps you use, the cheaper it gets. So if you're using five more apps instead of paying a hundred dollars, you're paying seventy five dollars. Get the, you know, like, There is no reason that just do no pop ups should be fifteen hundred dollars a month. There's no reason that a a post purchase upsell should be a percentage of revenue and not thirty dollars a month. And, the reality is that everyone's tiered percentages of revenue because you can make so much money doing that. And this is software that, like, you know, could have been written within a week or a week and a half by almost anybody,

38:47

and should be thirty dollars a month. I talked to a guy. I tried to buy this one Shopify app that,

and should be thirty dollars a month. I talked to a guy. I tried to buy this one Shopify app that,

38:54

All it did was it added a maximum

All it did was it added a maximum

38:57

to your cart. Like, a feature of people don't even think it's like, why would I ever stop someone from buying more? It's like, let's say you're doing, like, a limited edition thing. You don't want, like, the resellers to go buy all your shit. And,

to your cart. Like, a feature of people don't even think it's like, why would I ever stop someone from buying more? It's like, let's say you're doing, like, a limited edition thing. You don't want, like, the resellers to go buy all your shit. And,

39:08

these guys, you know, for, for, like, seven years. They've been doing, like, two million a year with a million dollar, a million and a half dollars a profit.

these guys, you know, for, for, like, seven years. They've been doing, like, two million a year with a million dollar, a million and a half dollars a profit.

39:15

Just on one Shopify app that just

Just on one Shopify app that just

39:18

caps the maximum somebody could could buy of a of a unit.

caps the maximum somebody could could buy of a of a unit.

39:22

And that that's gotta be like, you know, that should be, like, two lines of code or something. Like, it's crazy.

And that that's gotta be like, you know, that should be, like, two lines of code or something. Like, it's crazy.

39:28

But there are so many of these that that exist out there and people have smartly tried to roll some of these up. Yeah. And how many of those, how many of the customers of that app are probably customers who don't look at their bill on a every a monthly basis, and they're like, oh, man. Getting charged two hundred dollars a month that I never think about

But there are so many of these that that exist out there and people have smartly tried to roll some of these up. Yeah. And how many of those, how many of the customers of that app are probably customers who don't look at their bill on a every a monthly basis, and they're like, oh, man. Getting charged two hundred dollars a month that I never think about

39:42

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's to it's built first, you never whip out your credit card. You just once you connect to Shopify,

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's to it's built first, you never whip out your credit card. You just once you connect to Shopify,

39:47

it's gonna pay you from Shopify.

it's gonna pay you from Shopify.

39:49

Yes. And then it's buried in the billing tab under all the stuff. So, yeah, there's definitely,

Yes. And then it's buried in the billing tab under all the stuff. So, yeah, there's definitely,

39:54

there's, like, low, very low friction and, like, racking up those charges.

there's, like, low, very low friction and, like, racking up those charges.

39:58

There's a massive business to be built here, which is closing the top one hundred Shopify apps and just charging a flat fee. Yeah. Like, you know, it might be a longer term business. Because you don't have a sales team and you're not going out calling everyone being, like, switch from, you know, Yahoo to me, but it is, every single new business is gonna go to you because it's way easier to use. You have some controversial opinions. You have a lot of them. A few of them. Data's overrated.

There's a massive business to be built here, which is closing the top one hundred Shopify apps and just charging a flat fee. Yeah. Like, you know, it might be a longer term business. Because you don't have a sales team and you're not going out calling everyone being, like, switch from, you know, Yahoo to me, but it is, every single new business is gonna go to you because it's way easier to use. You have some controversial opinions. You have a lot of them. A few of them. Data's overrated.

40:21

Wealth managers are just used car salesman.

Wealth managers are just used car salesman.

40:23

You hate real Twitter real estate. I wanna hear some of your thoughts on on those things. We'll start with, we'll start with an easy one of data being overrated. What's what do you mean by that?

You hate real Twitter real estate. I wanna hear some of your thoughts on on those things. We'll start with, we'll start with an easy one of data being overrated. What's what do you mean by that?

40:33

Let's start with an easier one, which is, Twitter real estate, if you don't mind.

Let's start with an easier one, which is, Twitter real estate, if you don't mind.

40:38

Like, Well, wait. Say say the unpopular opinion. What is it about Twitter real estate? It's full of complete shit. Yeah. They're full of frauds and they're, like, I can't begin to tell you how many people where I, like, read their tweets. Some deals come in, and I'm, like, you how is nobody calling you out on this? Like, you know, people are like, are you on the phone?

Like, Well, wait. Say say the unpopular opinion. What is it about Twitter real estate? It's full of complete shit. Yeah. They're full of frauds and they're, like, I can't begin to tell you how many people where I, like, read their tweets. Some deals come in, and I'm, like, you how is nobody calling you out on this? Like, you know, people are like, are you on the phone?

40:57

Give the listener perspective here. So you own

Give the listener perspective here. So you own

41:00

do maybe dozens or hundred or a hundred. Hundreds. Hundreds of either single family homes or multifamily homes. Is that right? That's right. Yes. Okay. And then I'm an investor in dozens of real estate deals through as B and Lp. Okay. So you that that's your perspective.

do maybe dozens or hundred or a hundred. Hundreds. Hundreds of either single family homes or multifamily homes. Is that right? That's right. Yes. Okay. And then I'm an investor in dozens of real estate deals through as B and Lp. Okay. So you that that's your perspective.

41:14

That's my perspective a, you know, an LP and a lot of the people, you know, people will be like, did you unfollow me because of my opinion on the Middle East crisis? And I'm like, no. I unfollowed you because you're a fraud. And you're pretending, like, you're a good real estate investor, and you're a fucking complete criminal, and I know it because I'm an LP in your business.

That's my perspective a, you know, an LP and a lot of the people, you know, people will be like, did you unfollow me because of my opinion on the Middle East crisis? And I'm like, no. I unfollowed you because you're a fraud. And you're pretending, like, you're a good real estate investor, and you're a fucking complete criminal, and I know it because I'm an LP in your business.

41:31

I get, like, even now, I get One of these are my black boy light. They're tweeting out. Yeah. They're tweeting out their returns. They're like, here are our returns. And I'm like, these are not returns that I've realized as an LP in your d as an LP in your business sense. And, you know, they have you audacity like, you know, I'll be like, hey, we're, like, you know, before interest rates were going up, I was like, we we have floating rate mortgages. What the fuck is gonna happen when interest rates go up? And these guys are like, oh, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. And now they're like, actually, we need more money. And, like, You know, startups are one thing where you might need more capital as a business grows because you're trying to expand for some reason or another. Real Estate is a business where once you own the asset, you should not need more cash. You're not, like, expanding the real estate anyway, you're operating an apartment building. The problem is what happens is when the interest rates go up, You have more debt to pay every single month because you're on a floating rate. You need more capital to be able to pay that debt because the rents don't service it. Rent are going down.

I get, like, even now, I get One of these are my black boy light. They're tweeting out. Yeah. They're tweeting out their returns. They're like, here are our returns. And I'm like, these are not returns that I've realized as an LP in your d as an LP in your business sense. And, you know, they have you audacity like, you know, I'll be like, hey, we're, like, you know, before interest rates were going up, I was like, we we have floating rate mortgages. What the fuck is gonna happen when interest rates go up? And these guys are like, oh, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. And now they're like, actually, we need more money. And, like, You know, startups are one thing where you might need more capital as a business grows because you're trying to expand for some reason or another. Real Estate is a business where once you own the asset, you should not need more cash. You're not, like, expanding the real estate anyway, you're operating an apartment building. The problem is what happens is when the interest rates go up, You have more debt to pay every single month because you're on a floating rate. You need more capital to be able to pay that debt because the rents don't service it. Rent are going down.

42:24

Interest rates are going up, and these guys who have promised, you know, making fortunes

Interest rates are going up, and these guys who have promised, you know, making fortunes

42:29

are, like, are caught with their pants down. And then with the eight, the which is crazy, then they have the audacity to say, hey, actually, where our returns are fantastic. And then they have the audacity. Like, the other audacity that they have is they're like, okay. All of the deals you invested in within the last five years with us are bad because interest rates are up. But now we can buy things at a lower price because prices have gone down to our interest rates are up. So buy it with me. Now I'm a good loud a good time to invest with me. And I wanna be, like, I wanna fucking kill you is really the answer.

are, like, are caught with their pants down. And then with the eight, the which is crazy, then they have the audacity to say, hey, actually, where our returns are fantastic. And then they have the audacity. Like, the other audacity that they have is they're like, okay. All of the deals you invested in within the last five years with us are bad because interest rates are up. But now we can buy things at a lower price because prices have gone down to our interest rates are up. So buy it with me. Now I'm a good loud a good time to invest with me. And I wanna be, like, I wanna fucking kill you is really the answer.

42:57

Like, I, you know, hate that type of bullshit.

Like, I, you know, hate that type of bullshit.

43:00

You said, why isn't anyone calling these people out? Yeah. Why aren't you calling them out? Would you like to name some names? We got a great audience here that would love to hear the names of some of these folks. Yeah. I don't wanna name names because I want them. Like, you know, some of these people I'm friends with, and I'm, like, I know your wives and your families, and I don't want you to, like, suffer. I was like, I don't wanna see you as sort of suffering in that way. You just wanna kill him. But, like, yes,

You said, why isn't anyone calling these people out? Yeah. Why aren't you calling them out? Would you like to name some names? We got a great audience here that would love to hear the names of some of these folks. Yeah. I don't wanna name names because I want them. Like, you know, some of these people I'm friends with, and I'm, like, I know your wives and your families, and I don't want you to, like, suffer. I was like, I don't wanna see you as sort of suffering in that way. You just wanna kill him. But, like, yes,

43:23

I do wanna kill that. I do think that, like, I I I I, like, there are very few people I would ever invest again with in real estate Twitter. The one exception to that role, made the exception rather than the rule itself, is Moses Gaegan, where I've invested in several deals with him. And I'm like, this guy underwrites conservatively,

I do wanna kill that. I do think that, like, I I I I, like, there are very few people I would ever invest again with in real estate Twitter. The one exception to that role, made the exception rather than the rule itself, is Moses Gaegan, where I've invested in several deals with him. And I'm like, this guy underwrites conservatively,

43:40

like, I underwrite.

like, I underwrite.

43:42

And he's, like, thinking about the game in a long term way where he's like, I wanna manage my reputation. I want people to make money. I'll make money when people make money, and I would invest with him a lot of other deals that I've done with people on real estate Twitter, I'm like, I would need, you know, I'd have to be,

And he's, like, thinking about the game in a long term way where he's like, I wanna manage my reputation. I want people to make money. I'll make money when people make money, and I would invest with him a lot of other deals that I've done with people on real estate Twitter, I'm like, I would need, you know, I'd have to be,

43:57

heroin addict to invest with you again.

heroin addict to invest with you again.

44:00

You said last time you were on the podcast.

You said last time you were on the podcast.

44:02

You did a pie chart,

You did a pie chart,

44:05

which normally people do as percentages and you did as dollars, which I thought was such a boss move and really enjoyed. So I want you to tell me how it's changed since then. So you said at the time this was

which normally people do as percentages and you did as dollars, which I thought was such a boss move and really enjoyed. So I want you to tell me how it's changed since then. So you said at the time this was

44:15

twenty twenty two, mid twenty twenty two. So it's been about a year,

twenty twenty two, mid twenty twenty two. So it's been about a year,

44:19

since then, a little more than a year. You said I got ten million of pro in private equity.

since then, a little more than a year. You said I got ten million of pro in private equity.

44:24

Forty to fifty million in cash, which is short term bonds. I'm waiting for bond prices to come up, you said? Then you said That was so smart.

Forty to fifty million in cash, which is short term bonds. I'm waiting for bond prices to come up, you said? Then you said That was so smart.

44:32

Then you said twenty five, thirty million in real estate,

Then you said twenty five, thirty million in real estate,

44:36

that we own and operate ourselves, and then ten million in real estate as a LP in other people's funds. You said ten million of start up investments and ten million of the stock market.

that we own and operate ourselves, and then ten million in real estate as a LP in other people's funds. You said ten million of start up investments and ten million of the stock market.

44:45

What do you has that changed? Have you have you made shifts since then in how you are investing. Yeah. Sure.

What do you has that changed? Have you have you made shifts since then in how you are investing. Yeah. Sure.

44:52

Good question.

Good question.

44:55

It hasn't changed dramatically.

It hasn't changed dramatically.

44:57

I would say the forty to fifty million dollars in bonds is probably somewhere at sixty to seventy today, but it's still in short term bonds, which are yielding a lot. I'm starting to get a little bit longer as, like, the yield curve starts to flatten. Like, right now, if you buy a one year bond, you'll get about five point five percent interest

I would say the forty to fifty million dollars in bonds is probably somewhere at sixty to seventy today, but it's still in short term bonds, which are yielding a lot. I'm starting to get a little bit longer as, like, the yield curve starts to flatten. Like, right now, if you buy a one year bond, you'll get about five point five percent interest

45:14

in a year. If you buy a ten year bond, it's a little bit under five.

in a year. If you buy a ten year bond, it's a little bit under five.

45:17

You know, a year ago, it was, like, five it was, let's say, five percent for a year, but four percent for ten years. And now the the, like, the curve was inverted and now it's starting to flatten a little bit. And as it continues to flatten, I invested longer term bonds rather than just short term bonds.

You know, a year ago, it was, like, five it was, let's say, five percent for a year, but four percent for ten years. And now the the, like, the curve was inverted and now it's starting to flatten a little bit. And as it continues to flatten, I invested longer term bonds rather than just short term bonds.

45:32

I probably have fifteen to twenty million dollars in the stock market at this point.

I probably have fifteen to twenty million dollars in the stock market at this point.

45:37

Heavily concentrated in Facebook and,

Heavily concentrated in Facebook and,

45:40

and Shopify.

and Shopify.

45:42

Probably, like, and probably PNG. You tweeted out this funny thing. It was, your your IRR versus,

Probably, like, and probably PNG. You tweeted out this funny thing. It was, your your IRR versus,

45:48

S and P, and you're like, you quoted you quoted legally blonde. You're like, what? Like, stock investing is hard. It's hard. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

S and P, and you're like, you quoted you quoted legally blonde. You're like, what? Like, stock investing is hard. It's hard. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

45:57

And what what were what was the returns? What was the comparison? Yeah. It's probably up thirty percent of the error. Yeah. Versus S and P was, like, three or something or or ten, twelve, or something like that. Yeah. But I don't you didn't say what you owned. And in my head, I was like, I bet that is literally just Facebook.

And what what were what was the returns? What was the comparison? Yeah. It's probably up thirty percent of the error. Yeah. Versus S and P was, like, three or something or or ten, twelve, or something like that. Yeah. But I don't you didn't say what you owned. And in my head, I was like, I bet that is literally just Facebook.

46:13

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a lot of Facebook.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a lot of Facebook.

46:17

Facebook and Shopify and pieces. You and your brother kept buying the dip. Like, Facebook was getting crushed, like, you know Yeah. Don't know, a year and a half ago to to, like, you know, up until six months ago or something. And,

Facebook and Shopify and pieces. You and your brother kept buying the dip. Like, Facebook was getting crushed, like, you know Yeah. Don't know, a year and a half ago to to, like, you know, up until six months ago or something. And,

46:29

every time it went down, I remember your brother, and I think you also were like,

every time it went down, I remember your brother, and I think you also were like,

46:34

hey. Is everybody insane?

hey. Is everybody insane?

46:35

Great. I can't wait to go buy more Facebook today. And the earnings and psychologically, it's hard. Right? Earnings come out or or, you know, big stock move happens. It goes down.

Great. I can't wait to go buy more Facebook today. And the earnings and psychologically, it's hard. Right? Earnings come out or or, you know, big stock move happens. It goes down.

46:45

And to be like, alright. Woah. Let's go. But listen. It was buy in more buy in more. That takes a totally different mindset. What's your what drives the conviction? Because it's obviously not a reaction to the you're not reacting to momentum. Fact, you're going you're betting against the current momentum. Sure. So what made you believe that that's, like, a place that you wanted to be investing?

And to be like, alright. Woah. Let's go. But listen. It was buy in more buy in more. That takes a totally different mindset. What's your what drives the conviction? Because it's obviously not a reaction to the you're not reacting to momentum. Fact, you're going you're betting against the current momentum. Sure. So what made you believe that that's, like, a place that you wanted to be investing?

47:06

I would say two two things. One, is literally every single per business I know if it's a online retailer

I would say two two things. One, is literally every single per business I know if it's a online retailer

47:13

is entirely dependent on Facebook, whether they realize it or not. Like, any

is entirely dependent on Facebook, whether they realize it or not. Like, any

47:16

money I need to look. The best businesses in direct to consumer are entirely dependent on Facebook. The worst businesses are diversified.

money I need to look. The best businesses in direct to consumer are entirely dependent on Facebook. The worst businesses are diversified.

47:24

And it's that simple. If you're entirely if you're like my business lives or dies by Facebook, I'm like, you're gonna have a better outcome than if you think your business lives and dies by YouTube ads, brick and mortar. Actually, brick and mortar is an exception to that, but, like, YouTube ads. I'm diversified with my advertising strategy. I'm investing a lot in TikTok. That means you can't get the thing that works for everybody

And it's that simple. If you're entirely if you're like my business lives or dies by Facebook, I'm like, you're gonna have a better outcome than if you think your business lives and dies by YouTube ads, brick and mortar. Actually, brick and mortar is an exception to that, but, like, YouTube ads. I'm diversified with my advertising strategy. I'm investing a lot in TikTok. That means you can't get the thing that works for everybody

47:42

and is the biggest advertising engine of the world to work for you. You're gonna miss out out a ton of opportunity.

and is the biggest advertising engine of the world to work for you. You're gonna miss out out a ton of opportunity.

47:48

And and so I'd say that is one of them. But, like, the reality is in this a little bit of a longer story, where the financial crisis hit, my father who had been conservative his entire life, He was probably, like, seventy years old at the time, and he's, like, this doesn't make sense how cheap these houses are. And so, he bought one house,

And and so I'd say that is one of them. But, like, the reality is in this a little bit of a longer story, where the financial crisis hit, my father who had been conservative his entire life, He was probably, like, seventy years old at the time, and he's, like, this doesn't make sense how cheap these houses are. And so, he bought one house,

48:05

And, it was probably like a fifteen hundred square foot house, and he paid a hundred and fifty thousand dollars for it. And it just sold for, like, two twenty five. Like, you know, a couple months before end. He's, like, there's a seventy five thousand dollar discount after sixty days. And then, and the net sixty days later, that one fifty was probably worth like seventy five thousand.

And, it was probably like a fifteen hundred square foot house, and he paid a hundred and fifty thousand dollars for it. And it just sold for, like, two twenty five. Like, you know, a couple months before end. He's, like, there's a seventy five thousand dollar discount after sixty days. And then, and the net sixty days later, that one fifty was probably worth like seventy five thousand.

48:23

And rather than get scared, it'd be like, oh, fuck. I lost seventy five thousand dollars, and we don't have a lot of money at the time, He's like, this doesn't make any sense.

And rather than get scared, it'd be like, oh, fuck. I lost seventy five thousand dollars, and we don't have a lot of money at the time, He's like, this doesn't make any sense.

48:31

Now this house over you that sold for two fifty four months ago is for seventy five thousand dollars. And so he kept purchasing real estate.

Now this house over you that sold for two fifty four months ago is for seventy five thousand dollars. And so he kept purchasing real estate.

48:39

And,

And,

48:40

you know, there was one half duplex that he purchased for eight thousand dollars, and it generates, like, nineteen hundred dollars in rent a month today. Like, within, you know, within a year, we purchased back the entire duplex every single year. And, he never lost convictions. Like, this is a deal of a lifetime.

you know, there was one half duplex that he purchased for eight thousand dollars, and it generates, like, nineteen hundred dollars in rent a month today. Like, within, you know, within a year, we purchased back the entire duplex every single year. And, he never lost convictions. Like, this is a deal of a lifetime.

48:55

And, I've got the conviction that I'm right here. And, you know, obviously, you know, people talk about my brother and I and how we've, like, had financial success.

And, I've got the conviction that I'm right here. And, you know, obviously, you know, people talk about my brother and I and how we've, like, had financial success.

49:03

The reality is that financial success is based on the idea that we will not need a lot of money in the future because he per he started purchasing real estate and created a steady stream of income for our family. That would be very hard to lose.

The reality is that financial success is based on the idea that we will not need a lot of money in the future because he per he started purchasing real estate and created a steady stream of income for our family. That would be very hard to lose.

49:16

We had the benefit of that. It's sort of the solid foundation of, like, not worrying about money and sort of being able to take a lot of risk because we could fall back on real estate.

We had the benefit of that. It's sort of the solid foundation of, like, not worrying about money and sort of being able to take a lot of risk because we could fall back on real estate.

49:24

And that gave me a lot of conviction where I'm like, wow. It it is possible to buck the trend here. And say, you know what? These people are wrong. This like, you know, this is on sale. And you're selling this incredible asset, and it's fifty percent off. And I know it because I'm looking at, you know, twenty five ad accounts on a daily basis and seeing that these people are still investing ad dollars on Facebook.

And that gave me a lot of conviction where I'm like, wow. It it is possible to buck the trend here. And say, you know what? These people are wrong. This like, you know, this is on sale. And you're selling this incredible asset, and it's fifty percent off. And I know it because I'm looking at, you know, twenty five ad accounts on a daily basis and seeing that these people are still investing ad dollars on Facebook.

49:43

So how could it be twenty five per how can be twenty five percent off could Facebook stock be fifty percent off? This is a bond opportunity, not a selling opportunity. Of your

So how could it be twenty five per how can be twenty five percent off could Facebook stock be fifty percent off? This is a bond opportunity, not a selling opportunity. Of your

49:52

portfolio now, what percentage of it came from native

portfolio now, what percentage of it came from native

49:56

was did native make up the bulk of it? And then it's just it's grown nicely since then.

was did native make up the bulk of it? And then it's just it's grown nicely since then.

50:01

I would say native is, you know,

I would say native is, you know,

50:04

It's hard to answer that question because, like, so when Native sold, let's say I I made virtually the entire amount.

It's hard to answer that question because, like, so when Native sold, let's say I I made virtually the entire amount.

50:11

But that, you know, like, the the my net worth is significantly higher than that now, but, like, you know, it's based on, like, you know, I would own fifty million dollars in bonds where it for the hundred million dollars I got from Native's sale. So, like, yeah, while the interest I don't know if the interest is attributable to Native or it it it is not. Presumably, it is.

But that, you know, like, the the my net worth is significantly higher than that now, but, like, you know, it's based on, like, you know, I would own fifty million dollars in bonds where it for the hundred million dollars I got from Native's sale. So, like, yeah, while the interest I don't know if the interest is attributable to Native or it it it is not. Presumably, it is.

50:29

You know, certainly if I were getting a divorce and I didn't have a prenup, I'd say, all of this is native money. Like, it all came from native. That's pre, pre marriage.

You know, certainly if I were getting a divorce and I didn't have a prenup, I'd say, all of this is native money. Like, it all came from native. That's pre, pre marriage.

50:37

And so,

And so,

50:39

You know, the bulk of my, financial net worth is a result of selling a native, but at this point, the cash itself from native is probably less than a majority of my net worth.

You know, the bulk of my, financial net worth is a result of selling a native, but at this point, the cash itself from native is probably less than a majority of my net worth.

50:48

When you,

When you,

50:50

you talk about, like, you know,

you talk about, like, you know,

50:52

oh, wait. Your dad saw that opportunity. This is, yeah, underpriced when Facebook stock is crashing. You feel like this is an underpriced asset.

oh, wait. Your dad saw that opportunity. This is, yeah, underpriced when Facebook stock is crashing. You feel like this is an underpriced asset.

50:59

What do you feel like are the kind of underpriced opportunities where assets today? I think San Francisco real estate and possibly your office real estate in a lot of other cities, but I do think that, like,

What do you feel like are the kind of underpriced opportunities where assets today? I think San Francisco real estate and possibly your office real estate in a lot of other cities, but I do think that, like,

51:11

that on, like, you know, the co the question is how do you wanna get in there?

that on, like, you know, the co the question is how do you wanna get in there?

51:15

When when we were bought when my father was buying this real estate in o eight, I was in a it must be, like, a little bit later. Must've been, like, twenty ten. I was an attorney, and, all these, like, wealth managers tried to talk to attorneys. And so I was, like, look, I need a loan,

When when we were bought when my father was buying this real estate in o eight, I was in a it must be, like, a little bit later. Must've been, like, twenty ten. I was an attorney, and, all these, like, wealth managers tried to talk to attorneys. And so I was, like, look, I need a loan,

51:27

for five hundred my family needs a loan for five hundred thousand dollars. We bought a million dollars of real estate. We just want fifty percent LTV. And Wells Fargo would be like, only way we're gonna give you a loan is if you give us a million dollars in cash, then we'll give you a million dollar loan. And I was like, I don't understand if you guys know how money works, but if I had a million dollars in cash, it wouldn't come to you for fucking million dollar loan. I wouldn't give you that.

for five hundred my family needs a loan for five hundred thousand dollars. We bought a million dollars of real estate. We just want fifty percent LTV. And Wells Fargo would be like, only way we're gonna give you a loan is if you give us a million dollars in cash, then we'll give you a million dollar loan. And I was like, I don't understand if you guys know how money works, but if I had a million dollars in cash, it wouldn't come to you for fucking million dollar loan. I wouldn't give you that.

51:47

But, so anyway, like, we were, we were strapped for cash and trying to deploy it. And then what my father did is he dollar cost average into the real estate. And he didn't know that that's what he was doing. He was just like, well, okay. We got, like, another, you know, fifty thousand dollars to spend. Let's go buy a house. And, he would get that fifty thousand dollars for rent that he was collected. And so, he just dollar cost averaged his way in, and it was really aggressive.

But, so anyway, like, we were, we were strapped for cash and trying to deploy it. And then what my father did is he dollar cost average into the real estate. And he didn't know that that's what he was doing. He was just like, well, okay. We got, like, another, you know, fifty thousand dollars to spend. Let's go buy a house. And, he would get that fifty thousand dollars for rent that he was collected. And so, he just dollar cost averaged his way in, and it was really aggressive.

52:11

I'm if if you were dollar cost averaging your way into office space, I'd probably start, you know, in twenty twenty three or or very early twenty twenty four. If you were, like, I'm trying to time the bottom, which is really hard to do correctly, obviously, I'd probably still wait four to five months because there's probably still some,

I'm if if you were dollar cost averaging your way into office space, I'd probably start, you know, in twenty twenty three or or very early twenty twenty four. If you were, like, I'm trying to time the bottom, which is really hard to do correctly, obviously, I'd probably still wait four to five months because there's probably still some,

52:29

you know, some deals that have to go,

you know, some deals that have to go,

52:32

that have to light on fire before the rest of the world realizes, okay, my real estate is now worth a hundred billion. Actually worth thirty million today. Yeah. I I agree with the San Francisco thing. What do you think? What was your answer to that question? I didn't have an answer, but I wanted to know your opinion on, like, some of these D2C companies that just got smashed in the stock market. So, like, you know, an allbirds brand, which I don't know what the market cap is. It was like fifty million dollars or thing. It's come down. I'm way, way, way down. Revenues over a hundred million

that have to light on fire before the rest of the world realizes, okay, my real estate is now worth a hundred billion. Actually worth thirty million today. Yeah. I I agree with the San Francisco thing. What do you think? What was your answer to that question? I didn't have an answer, but I wanted to know your opinion on, like, some of these D2C companies that just got smashed in the stock market. So, like, you know, an allbirds brand, which I don't know what the market cap is. It was like fifty million dollars or thing. It's come down. I'm way, way, way down. Revenues over a hundred million

52:59

market cap, you know, figuring out. Yeah. So today is one thirty eight. Yeah. No. I think it has to be a bankrupt before you can touch that. Why is that? They just totally mismanaged it or too much debt? Or what's the problem with that that business? I I haven't looked at it. Probably, like, real estate, is probably not good. They're team is too large. They might have some, like, financial obligations probably to their suppliers that are really holding down their they have a lot of accounts, payable.

market cap, you know, figuring out. Yeah. So today is one thirty eight. Yeah. No. I think it has to be a bankrupt before you can touch that. Why is that? They just totally mismanaged it or too much debt? Or what's the problem with that that business? I I haven't looked at it. Probably, like, real estate, is probably not good. They're team is too large. They might have some, like, financial obligations probably to their suppliers that are really holding down their they have a lot of accounts, payable.

53:20

And you need to wipe that all out before you can get into it. You know, I looked at this with honest as well. And I was like,

And you need to wipe that all out before you can get into it. You know, I looked at this with honest as well. And I was like,

53:26

I talked to some serious people and I was like, hey, what a buy I'm thinking about buying honest.

I talked to some serious people and I was like, hey, what a buy I'm thinking about buying honest.

53:31

And,

And,

53:32

that business was that business had different problems. That business had gross margin problems, which was They if they sell a diaper for a dollar, it actually cost them seventy cents. And generally, in this industry, you it actually cost you, like, thirty cents. You should have, you know, sixty, seventy percent gross margins. These guys had thirty percent gross margins. So they had they had a different problem, but, like,

that business was that business had different problems. That business had gross margin problems, which was They if they sell a diaper for a dollar, it actually cost them seventy cents. And generally, in this industry, you it actually cost you, like, thirty cents. You should have, you know, sixty, seventy percent gross margins. These guys had thirty percent gross margins. So they had they had a different problem, but, like,

53:51

I I think with all births, it's a it's more severe. It's, you know, it's systemic. It's a brand, like, you know, it's a brand, like, it needs to I think you don't have to go through bankruptcy in order to be, fixed

I I think with all births, it's a it's more severe. It's, you know, it's systemic. It's a brand, like, you know, it's a brand, like, it needs to I think you don't have to go through bankruptcy in order to be, fixed

54:02

do you look at things like AI? Do you pay attention to it? Or are you just like, I'm a merchant? I used to cash checks at a gas station.

do you look at things like AI? Do you pay attention to it? Or are you just like, I'm a merchant? I used to cash checks at a gas station.

54:09

And then I sold deodorant,

And then I sold deodorant,

54:11

you know, through Facebook ads. And now, you know, I, you know, are you, like, real estate? You know, the only things I can touch and feel or do you pay attention? Do you get swept up at all in the kind of the the craziest of the day, like AI? I think I get swept up a little bit, but I'm probably more cautious where I'm like, I wanna see how this thing makes money. I remember our last podcast Sean. You were like, how much do you have in a Bitcoin? Cause that was one thing on my pie chart I did not talk about, and I was like, you know, probably less than five hundred thousand dollars. And today, it's, you know, pro like, probably less than two hundred thousand dollars.

you know, through Facebook ads. And now, you know, I, you know, are you, like, real estate? You know, the only things I can touch and feel or do you pay attention? Do you get swept up at all in the kind of the the craziest of the day, like AI? I think I get swept up a little bit, but I'm probably more cautious where I'm like, I wanna see how this thing makes money. I remember our last podcast Sean. You were like, how much do you have in a Bitcoin? Cause that was one thing on my pie chart I did not talk about, and I was like, you know, probably less than five hundred thousand dollars. And today, it's, you know, pro like, probably less than two hundred thousand dollars.

54:44

You know, I'd like to know how I'm gonna make money. I guess I'm far more risk averse than most entrepreneurs.

You know, I'd like to know how I'm gonna make money. I guess I'm far more risk averse than most entrepreneurs.

54:50

And that risk aversion means that I probably won't invest in businesses. Unless I have a good idea of, like, how does this business make money or who who purchases this business? Or how do we how do we exit this business? Five to ten years from now. I need, like, a realistic vision of that. If I don't have that, I'm probably less inclined to get behind it. And so I think that's made me shy away from Bitcoin. That's made me shy away from AI. Probably to my own detriment. Are you managing everything yourself and what tools are you using? Is it just a a sheet? Just a Excel sheet? Yeah. There's a Google my brother and I share where we're like, here's your investment. Like, you know, if it's a, you know, here's a fund. Here's how much we've committed. Here's how much we've invested. If it's a startup, it scares how much we've put in. Do you guys still have, like, one bank account? He told me once he was, like, yeah, it's kinda just like a family pot of money. I'm, like, how is that a little bit?

And that risk aversion means that I probably won't invest in businesses. Unless I have a good idea of, like, how does this business make money or who who purchases this business? Or how do we how do we exit this business? Five to ten years from now. I need, like, a realistic vision of that. If I don't have that, I'm probably less inclined to get behind it. And so I think that's made me shy away from Bitcoin. That's made me shy away from AI. Probably to my own detriment. Are you managing everything yourself and what tools are you using? Is it just a a sheet? Just a Excel sheet? Yeah. There's a Google my brother and I share where we're like, here's your investment. Like, you know, if it's a, you know, here's a fund. Here's how much we've committed. Here's how much we've invested. If it's a startup, it scares how much we've put in. Do you guys still have, like, one bank account? He told me once he was, like, yeah, it's kinda just like a family pot of money. I'm, like, how is that a little bit?

55:36

A little bit.

A little bit.

55:37

A little bit. Yes. Is the honest answer is yes. Still, in in very many ways, I think the answer is yes to that.

A little bit. Yes. Is the honest answer is yes. Still, in in very many ways, I think the answer is yes to that.

55:44

When you see him buying something stupid, you're like, you're spending our money, bitch. What are you doing?

When you see him buying something stupid, you're like, you're spending our money, bitch. What are you doing?

55:49

Well, I knew he was gonna buy you a gift one time. And I was like, well, kinda buying himself a gift. Right? You you you

Well, I knew he was gonna buy you a gift one time. And I was like, well, kinda buying himself a gift. Right? You you you

55:55

if it's it's our money.

if it's it's our money.

55:56

You you don't like you don't like wealth managers

You you don't like you don't like wealth managers

56:00

so do you manage everything yourself? Because that's that's a full time job almost. That is a full time job. If you wanna be good at it, and if you don't get, like, if you don't wanna be good at it, it's less of a full time job. Like, At this point, I'm, mostly content with if I'm not making a startup investment,

so do you manage everything yourself? Because that's that's a full time job almost. That is a full time job. If you wanna be good at it, and if you don't get, like, if you don't wanna be good at it, it's less of a full time job. Like, At this point, I'm, mostly content with if I'm not making a startup investment,

56:13

I'm generally gonna think of the S and P five hundred or the US treasury.

I'm generally gonna think of the S and P five hundred or the US treasury.

56:18

I'm not, like, chasing the extra yield,

I'm not, like, chasing the extra yield,

56:21

where I'm, like, if I put a lot of effort into this, instead of the US treasury, maybe an Uber's, like, Uber Box, that are dated in twenty twenty five are paying six point two percent, but you have to analyze what's the tax implication of this Uber bond versus a US treasury to to determine net yields.

where I'm, like, if I put a lot of effort into this, instead of the US treasury, maybe an Uber's, like, Uber Box, that are dated in twenty twenty five are paying six point two percent, but you have to analyze what's the tax implication of this Uber bond versus a US treasury to to determine net yields.

56:38

I'm not like that. I'm just like, give me the US treasury. The extra one percent yield isn't worth it. I'll go make a percent elsewhere.

I'm not like that. I'm just like, give me the US treasury. The extra one percent yield isn't worth it. I'll go make a percent elsewhere.

56:45

My wealth managers, I've been through a several now.

My wealth managers, I've been through a several now.

56:49

I've been through Goldman Sachs.

I've been through Goldman Sachs.

56:50

Goldman Sachs, you know, I would like Goldman Sachs, like, always consult us before you make an investment. We'll just give you our real opinion. And I did that for a while, and I was like, okay. I thought you guys were just gonna be like, is this a good idea or a bad idea? They're always like, no, give us the money instead. I used to tell the story. I told I I told I went to, like, my Goldman Sachs's,

Goldman Sachs, you know, I would like Goldman Sachs, like, always consult us before you make an investment. We'll just give you our real opinion. And I did that for a while, and I was like, okay. I thought you guys were just gonna be like, is this a good idea or a bad idea? They're always like, no, give us the money instead. I used to tell the story. I told I I told I went to, like, my Goldman Sachs's,

57:09

like, my wealth manager's boss, I had her come over to the native offices, and I was like, look, I believe that if I told my wealth manager that Bill Gates was ready to give you a billion dollars tomorrow,

like, my wealth manager's boss, I had her come over to the native offices, and I was like, look, I believe that if I told my wealth manager that Bill Gates was ready to give you a billion dollars tomorrow,

57:19

if I let him borrow this pen and he signed a contract to that effect and put the billion dollars in a briefcase and give you that give me the briefcase.

if I let him borrow this pen and he signed a contract to that effect and put the billion dollars in a briefcase and give you that give me the briefcase.

57:26

You would say, don't do that deal. Give us the pen instead. Like, they would not they would, like, they would not let you own a dollar to Bill Gates. If he was gonna give you a billion dollars tomorrow, and he'd pre funded the billion dollars. They'd say give us the dollar, we can do better with it. Let us earn fees on your dollar. Don't take the billion dollars. Let us earn fees. And I told my Goldman Sachs Wealth Manager's boss, I was like, this is how I feel at your organization.

You would say, don't do that deal. Give us the pen instead. Like, they would not they would, like, they would not let you own a dollar to Bill Gates. If he was gonna give you a billion dollars tomorrow, and he'd pre funded the billion dollars. They'd say give us the dollar, we can do better with it. Let us earn fees on your dollar. Don't take the billion dollars. Let us earn fees. And I told my Goldman Sachs Wealth Manager's boss, I was like, this is how I feel at your organization.

57:48

It is fucking horrific.

It is fucking horrific.

57:51

And,

And,

57:52

you know, I still feel that way about them.

you know, I still feel that way about them.

57:54

Like, you know, I'm still angry at them.

Like, you know, I'm still angry at them.

57:57

And then I went to this. Tell me how you really feel. Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll tell him. Bill, one of the funniest tweets I ever saw was you go, oh, here's a photo of every, three P. L, owner that I've ever seen. And it was a picture of the hamburglar.

And then I went to this. Tell me how you really feel. Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll tell him. Bill, one of the funniest tweets I ever saw was you go, oh, here's a photo of every, three P. L, owner that I've ever seen. And it was a picture of the hamburglar.

58:13

It was so funny. Yeah. That was so funny. Oh my god.

It was so funny. Yeah. That was so funny. Oh my god.

58:17

And I couldn't even imagine

And I couldn't even imagine

58:19

what you were going through that would get you to the point where you're like, I'm gonna freak this out and

what you were going through that would get you to the point where you're like, I'm gonna freak this out and

58:25

What where's a picture of the hamburglar?

What where's a picture of the hamburglar?

58:27

Because that's that's how clown clownishly criminal these guys are and how they rip you off.

Because that's that's how clown clownishly criminal these guys are and how they rip you off.

58:32

It's so true. Oh, boy.

It's so true. Oh, boy.

58:34

My Last Wells manager,

My Last Wells manager,

58:36

was like, about a year and a half ago was like, you should invest everything into a bonds right now. Think the Fed is gonna engineer a soft landing, and everything's gonna be perfect. And so you want this three you'll get a three percent yield if you invested in five year duration. So, basically, you'll get three percent a year, but you have to commit to without money being invested for five years.

was like, about a year and a half ago was like, you should invest everything into a bonds right now. Think the Fed is gonna engineer a soft landing, and everything's gonna be perfect. And so you want this three you'll get a three percent yield if you invested in five year duration. So, basically, you'll get three percent a year, but you have to commit to without money being invested for five years.

58:55

And,

And,

58:57

so I put, like, I think it was, like, five or seven million dollars to that. And, against that strategy, And then a quarter in, like, probably three months later, I was like, you know what, I don't believe in this. Sell everything right now. I'm gonna take a loss. I don't think we're gonna engineer this soft landing. Interest rates are gonna go up. Inflation is nine percent. The fuck are you guys thinking? I mean, we could engineer a soft landing gear with a with interest rates staying the same as interest rates remaining the way they are. And inflation should be non fucking percent. You think that I should get a three percent yield.

so I put, like, I think it was, like, five or seven million dollars to that. And, against that strategy, And then a quarter in, like, probably three months later, I was like, you know what, I don't believe in this. Sell everything right now. I'm gonna take a loss. I don't think we're gonna engineer this soft landing. Interest rates are gonna go up. Inflation is nine percent. The fuck are you guys thinking? I mean, we could engineer a soft landing gear with a with interest rates staying the same as interest rates remaining the way they are. And inflation should be non fucking percent. You think that I should get a three percent yield.

59:25

And so, we sold the seven million dollars. I probably lost a hundred and fifty or a hundred twenty five thousand dollars or a hundred fifty thousand dollars in that three month period doing this. Three months, lost a hundred fifty thousand dollars, because that that against them. And, you know, people started to realize interest rates would rise. And, since then I've just invested in, like, you know, three months, six months, one year treasuries,

And so, we sold the seven million dollars. I probably lost a hundred and fifty or a hundred twenty five thousand dollars or a hundred fifty thousand dollars in that three month period doing this. Three months, lost a hundred fifty thousand dollars, because that that against them. And, you know, people started to realize interest rates would rise. And, since then I've just invested in, like, you know, three months, six months, one year treasuries,

59:47

to take advantage of the health. And so, like, you know, these guy the guys who are the wealth managers,

to take advantage of the health. And so, like, you know, these guy the guys who are the wealth managers,

59:51

their job is not to understand markets. Their job is to understand

their job is not to understand markets. Their job is to understand

59:56

how to sell you an asset. They're just car salesmen who sell, like, you know, financial,

how to sell you an asset. They're just car salesmen who sell, like, you know, financial,

01:00:01

instruments

instruments

01:00:02

rather than

rather than

01:00:03

cars. And they're, like, just as a sleazy and just as, like, slimy and just as charismatic as well. And,

cars. And they're, like, just as a sleazy and just as, like, slimy and just as charismatic as well. And,

01:00:11

You know, I trust, you know, have you seen, like, Seinfeld where George Castanza

You know, I trust, you know, have you seen, like, Seinfeld where George Castanza

01:00:15

is in a car dealership and a car dealer is, like, walking towards it? But he's, like, stop right there or otherwise, I'm gonna leave. That's what I would whenever my wealth manager was like, let me sell you this asset. I'm like, stop right there. I'm gonna hang up the phone if we continue this conversation.

is in a car dealership and a car dealer is, like, walking towards it? But he's, like, stop right there or otherwise, I'm gonna leave. That's what I would whenever my wealth manager was like, let me sell you this asset. I'm like, stop right there. I'm gonna hang up the phone if we continue this conversation.

01:00:28

VOO

VOO

01:00:29

or, you know, US treasuries. Don't try and sell me anything else. I know how you guys think. Are you ever gonna start another company again and and make that your thing? You missing it?

or, you know, US treasuries. Don't try and sell me anything else. I know how you guys think. Are you ever gonna start another company again and and make that your thing? You missing it?

01:00:39

Yes. Definitely.

Yes. Definitely.

01:00:40

You know, I think that, I can't turn a hundred million dollars into a billion dollars. I can only start a business. It's for a billion dollars. So I think the answer is yes. In fact, I'm stupid. Hey. What what happened to the guy on Twitter who said,

You know, I think that, I can't turn a hundred million dollars into a billion dollars. I can only start a business. It's for a billion dollars. So I think the answer is yes. In fact, I'm stupid. Hey. What what happened to the guy on Twitter who said,

01:00:52

hey, money's not gonna make you happy.

hey, money's not gonna make you happy.

01:00:55

It's your friend and your family and your what did you what did you say? You had some tweet about this till the day that I was like, you do you have a ghostwriter?

It's your friend and your family and your what did you what did you say? You had some tweet about this till the day that I was like, you do you have a ghostwriter?

01:01:02

Who who is this? This is not on brand. This is not the guy who said, was put on Earth to increase earnings per share. I like the old boys. The guy who was like It all can be true. It all can be true. Right? You could he wants to get after it. You don't have to do it just to make you happy. You do it just because it's exciting. And I think, like, it all depends on the mood you're in where you're, like, lonely or spending a lot of time with friends and you're like, wow, this is great. And then you You know, I'll spend time with friends so this guy will be like, yeah, I'm making I started this direct to consumer business. It'll be one hundred million dollars. This is our second year, twenty million dollars in EBITDA. And I'm like, fun friendship. I need to get that.

Who who is this? This is not on brand. This is not the guy who said, was put on Earth to increase earnings per share. I like the old boys. The guy who was like It all can be true. It all can be true. Right? You could he wants to get after it. You don't have to do it just to make you happy. You do it just because it's exciting. And I think, like, it all depends on the mood you're in where you're, like, lonely or spending a lot of time with friends and you're like, wow, this is great. And then you You know, I'll spend time with friends so this guy will be like, yeah, I'm making I started this direct to consumer business. It'll be one hundred million dollars. This is our second year, twenty million dollars in EBITDA. And I'm like, fun friendship. I need to get that.

01:01:35

And so I think it's all. Like, the grass is always greener.

And so I think it's all. Like, the grass is always greener.

01:01:40

And so sometimes having to, like, you know, I had this other two where I'm, like, sometimes I wanna be like a warrior and, make a lot of money. And other times, I wanna be, civilian and,

And so sometimes having to, like, you know, I had this other two where I'm, like, sometimes I wanna be like a warrior and, make a lot of money. And other times, I wanna be, civilian and,

01:01:48

just spend time with loved ones. I don't have a good answer to that. I see a therapist, and she doesn't have a good answer to that for Hey. No. There's, what is it, sun tzu? It's better to be, a warrior in the garden as opposed to a gardener and more. So, you know, you could still be this crazy person and everyone's been. Wow.

just spend time with loved ones. I don't have a good answer to that. I see a therapist, and she doesn't have a good answer to that for Hey. No. There's, what is it, sun tzu? It's better to be, a warrior in the garden as opposed to a gardener and more. So, you know, you could still be this crazy person and everyone's been. Wow.

01:02:06

That is a great quote. I've never heard that before.

That is a great quote. I've never heard that before.

01:02:09

That's awesome. What are business ideas that you guys have?

That's awesome. What are business ideas that you guys have?

01:02:12

What's a business idea that I should start? You know, if I wanna start a business, what what's what? You guys talk to a lot more people than I do. What's a business idea I should start?

What's a business idea that I should start? You know, if I wanna start a business, what what's what? You guys talk to a lot more people than I do. What's a business idea I should start?

01:02:19

Well, My honest opinion is that

Well, My honest opinion is that

01:02:22

you now have new advantages.

you now have new advantages.

01:02:25

And so, like, you could start a new business from scratch, but I really do think the thing you should do is take a huge slug of capital,

And so, like, you could start a new business from scratch, but I really do think the thing you should do is take a huge slug of capital,

01:02:33

buy something that is, like, you know, already worth a hundred million dollars. Like, you could you could take something from a hundred five hundred or a hundred to a billion, much easier than going from zero to five hundred,

buy something that is, like, you know, already worth a hundred million dollars. Like, you could you could take something from a hundred five hundred or a hundred to a billion, much easier than going from zero to five hundred,

01:02:44

with like a new product in the marketplace.

with like a new product in the marketplace.

01:02:46

And so I think that's what I would that's where I would start the process of thinking, thinking about I think you'd be very successful doing that. Or or buying, like, I forget the guy's name, nat, nat something, the guy who bought, the trading car company, like, like, an old, what was it called, Sean? Net Turner, is that a thing? That Yeah. He bought, like, a trading car company, and he's like, I'm gonna make this cool again. I think you would succeed doing that. But my read on you is that you are definitely more of a creator and an artist than you want people to think. And I think that you have to because I I saw how careful you are about customer service and about the brand. And even though you wanna act like this tough guy, like, you are like, I'm gonna answer two hundred customer service emails, and I'm gonna, like, delight them. And I remember about the website, like, you act like, oh, I just copied this. I copied that. There's a lot more thought and care than you, than you give that vibe out. And so if if if I had to tell you what to do, it would be,

And so I think that's what I would that's where I would start the process of thinking, thinking about I think you'd be very successful doing that. Or or buying, like, I forget the guy's name, nat, nat something, the guy who bought, the trading car company, like, like, an old, what was it called, Sean? Net Turner, is that a thing? That Yeah. He bought, like, a trading car company, and he's like, I'm gonna make this cool again. I think you would succeed doing that. But my read on you is that you are definitely more of a creator and an artist than you want people to think. And I think that you have to because I I saw how careful you are about customer service and about the brand. And even though you wanna act like this tough guy, like, you are like, I'm gonna answer two hundred customer service emails, and I'm gonna, like, delight them. And I remember about the website, like, you act like, oh, I just copied this. I copied that. There's a lot more thought and care than you, than you give that vibe out. And so if if if I had to tell you what to do, it would be,

01:03:40

start something from scratch and make it art and then also have that fifty percent of you that you know, only cares about EBITDA or, you know, or whatever,

start something from scratch and make it art and then also have that fifty percent of you that you know, only cares about EBITDA or, you know, or whatever,

01:03:48

that but I I I I my opinion is of who you are is you need to be a little bit more of an artist and you have lately. I couldn't agree more. I appreciate that. Yeah. I I actually agree with that. I I also think, what I would not do is I would not do another DTC brand even though you know how to do it and you could do you know, in your sleep at this point,

that but I I I I my opinion is of who you are is you need to be a little bit more of an artist and you have lately. I couldn't agree more. I appreciate that. Yeah. I I actually agree with that. I I also think, what I would not do is I would not do another DTC brand even though you know how to do it and you could do you know, in your sleep at this point,

01:04:07

just because you're playing the same level of the video game that you you already beat and, like, you know, what's more valuable than the money you would make in that is, like, You have, like, certain number of years of, like, your you're in, like, peak mental,

just because you're playing the same level of the video game that you you already beat and, like, you know, what's more valuable than the money you would make in that is, like, You have, like, certain number of years of, like, your you're in, like, peak mental,

01:04:19

physical, like, abilities right now. And, like, use those years wisely. Either go do just the funnest things you can think of, you know, around the world and travel and do all that good stuff. Or if you are gonna do a creative project,

physical, like, abilities right now. And, like, use those years wisely. Either go do just the funnest things you can think of, you know, around the world and travel and do all that good stuff. Or if you are gonna do a creative project,

01:04:31

make it one that, like,

make it one that, like,

01:04:33

you you know, puts those to good use and to good challenge, you know, like, If you if you came to me and you said, like, you know, I'm starting another D to C brand, and it's gonna be, you know, not deodorant, but whatever. Some other thing,

you you know, puts those to good use and to good challenge, you know, like, If you if you came to me and you said, like, you know, I'm starting another D to C brand, and it's gonna be, you know, not deodorant, but whatever. Some other thing,

01:04:46

Well, you know,

Well, you know,

01:04:48

yeah, I would be like, okay. That's cool. You're I'm sure it's gonna be successful, but, I don't think that's what may will make you? Yep. That's bullshit because native deodorant, like, I use the soap because, like, I trust the brand. Like, he built a brand. I mean, it's a it's a it brand. Partially because I know Moiz, I don't know the the owner now. So I don't I don't know actually if they're sticking to what the prom You don't know Procter? Well, I I don't know if there's actually, it's the opposite. If they own it, they're probably gonna ruin it. But, like, if you were to create, like, some type of food that is a healthy option,

yeah, I would be like, okay. That's cool. You're I'm sure it's gonna be successful, but, I don't think that's what may will make you? Yep. That's bullshit because native deodorant, like, I use the soap because, like, I trust the brand. Like, he built a brand. I mean, it's a it's a it brand. Partially because I know Moiz, I don't know the the owner now. So I don't I don't know actually if they're sticking to what the prom You don't know Procter? Well, I I don't know if there's actually, it's the opposite. If they own it, they're probably gonna ruin it. But, like, if you were to create, like, some type of food that is a healthy option,

01:05:19

or something baby formula. That's a healthy option. I actually think that that would start and look silly, but it actually has massive implications and would make don't like saying this, but it could make the world a even a slightly better place, and you could find some fulfillment in that, and it would look just like another e com brand. But as long as it's not, like, stupid. That doesn't that doesn't matter to people. Like, for example, another Allbirds thing, but something that I put in my body,

or something baby formula. That's a healthy option. I actually think that that would start and look silly, but it actually has massive implications and would make don't like saying this, but it could make the world a even a slightly better place, and you could find some fulfillment in that, and it would look just like another e com brand. But as long as it's not, like, stupid. That doesn't that doesn't matter to people. Like, for example, another Allbirds thing, but something that I put in my body,

01:05:43

you know, or something that makes my kid healthier, something like that. I I I think that could fulfill you. I appreciate that. And I appreciate that inspiration as well. I think there's, truths about those things. Like, I I wanna build something bit, like, of the reasons that I haven't really gotten excited about anything is because I want something to be, you know, ten times bigger than my last business.

you know, or something that makes my kid healthier, something like that. I I I think that could fulfill you. I appreciate that. And I appreciate that inspiration as well. I think there's, truths about those things. Like, I I wanna build something bit, like, of the reasons that I haven't really gotten excited about anything is because I want something to be, you know, ten times bigger than my last business.

01:06:01

And that's,

And that's,

01:06:03

you know, that's hard to do and hard to be excited about and hard to say, you know what? I'm gonna spend the next ten years of my life building this business.

you know, that's hard to do and hard to be excited about and hard to say, you know what? I'm gonna spend the next ten years of my life building this business.

01:06:09

And that's you know, that's what's made me really cautious about it. But in a way that I think is,

And that's you know, that's what's made me really cautious about it. But in a way that I think is,

01:06:15

you know, making my mind less flexible than it was five years you better get on it, man. You don't wanna be a husband or a one hit wonder. I I I I think Tell me about it. I think that native is only it's a home run for everyone else. I think it's a base hit for you.

you know, making my mind less flexible than it was five years you better get on it, man. You don't wanna be a husband or a one hit wonder. I I I I think Tell me about it. I think that native is only it's a home run for everyone else. I think it's a base hit for you.

01:06:28

But I'm I'm like, every day, I'm like, what's he doing? What's he doing? Is he doing it? I'll see you tweet something. I'm like, is that gonna be the thing? Is that gonna be the thing? Is he gonna actually fall You know, you're gonna be you're gonna be like uncle Rico bragging about how Yobos took state in high school. Like, I what, you know what I mean? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I did it. What a what a neg. It was an amazing neg. Well, hey, look. No. That's great. It's not a make. I I'd say you're, you know, I no. It's a compliment. Look, it's a compliment. You're gonna you're gonna do great things, but whether you're gonna finally nut up and actually do it, and that's what I'm eager for.

But I'm I'm like, every day, I'm like, what's he doing? What's he doing? Is he doing it? I'll see you tweet something. I'm like, is that gonna be the thing? Is that gonna be the thing? Is he gonna actually fall You know, you're gonna be you're gonna be like uncle Rico bragging about how Yobos took state in high school. Like, I what, you know what I mean? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I did it. What a what a neg. It was an amazing neg. Well, hey, look. No. That's great. It's not a make. I I'd say you're, you know, I no. It's a compliment. Look, it's a compliment. You're gonna you're gonna do great things, but whether you're gonna finally nut up and actually do it, and that's what I'm eager for.

01:06:59

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

01:07:00

My harm are my banker from, the Native sale texted me yesterday, and he's like, you know, November eighth is the sixth year anniversary of the sale. And so, like, it's been six years since I've been, you know, sold the business.

My harm are my banker from, the Native sale texted me yesterday, and he's like, you know, November eighth is the sixth year anniversary of the sale. And so, like, it's been six years since I've been, you know, sold the business.

01:07:12

And, you know, I think so far it's been my backup. Hey, Moises. You wanna

And, you know, I think so far it's been my backup. Hey, Moises. You wanna

01:07:15

feel some anxiety today?

feel some anxiety today?

01:07:17

Been six years.

Been six years.

01:07:19

You wanna fuck up your day? Here you go. You know what that is? He he's doing a home options for investment banking. He's like texting me once in a while. He's like, Hey, when it's time to sell this in your next business, don't forget about me. I'm still texting you. What was the, what what's the sales now of Native? I I bet you that's doing two or three hundred million a year now. Right? Five hundred this year. Five hundred. Oh,

You wanna fuck up your day? Here you go. You know what that is? He he's doing a home options for investment banking. He's like texting me once in a while. He's like, Hey, when it's time to sell this in your next business, don't forget about me. I'm still texting you. What was the, what what's the sales now of Native? I I bet you that's doing two or three hundred million a year now. Right? Five hundred this year. Five hundred. Oh,

01:07:40

coulda woulda shoulda. No. I'm I've I've taken you. You I woulda sold probably as well. Joe, I don't think I could've done Yeah. I don't think I could have done what PNG has done without them. Like, they've made it an amazing brand. They think about, like, you know, product development. They think about shelf space. They think about things in a way that's really spectacular. And I'm not to say that there are things where I look at them. I'm like, oh, I wouldn't have done that. Like, I definitely see that once in a while. But ultimately, like,

coulda woulda shoulda. No. I'm I've I've taken you. You I woulda sold probably as well. Joe, I don't think I could've done Yeah. I don't think I could have done what PNG has done without them. Like, they've made it an amazing brand. They think about, like, you know, product development. They think about shelf space. They think about things in a way that's really spectacular. And I'm not to say that there are things where I look at them. I'm like, oh, I wouldn't have done that. Like, I definitely see that once in a while. But ultimately, like,

01:08:05

You know, the reason that I sold and what I did was I wanted to learn from people who are masters at something about how to grow something from, you know, thirty to a hundred or five hundred. I think I learned a lot of that while I was there. And so, you know, there are people always like to you regret it. I there's not a day that goes by where I go to bed and I'm like, man, I shouldn't have sold I'm always like, that was the right decision. We'll wrap up with this one line that you told me,

You know, the reason that I sold and what I did was I wanted to learn from people who are masters at something about how to grow something from, you know, thirty to a hundred or five hundred. I think I learned a lot of that while I was there. And so, you know, there are people always like to you regret it. I there's not a day that goes by where I go to bed and I'm like, man, I shouldn't have sold I'm always like, that was the right decision. We'll wrap up with this one line that you told me,

01:08:26

you you're you're saying, you're telling me about the sell the sale process. And they were like, So how are you gonna expand? And you looked at them all dumbfounded. I go or you and you go, well,

you you're you're saying, you're telling me about the sell the sale process. And they were like, So how are you gonna expand? And you looked at them all dumbfounded. I go or you and you go, well,

01:08:37

can you write the words native on a shampoo bottle?

can you write the words native on a shampoo bottle?

01:08:41

How how about on toothpaste? Can you write that? Okay. That's how you expand. And that's exactly what they've done. I actually don't use the deodorant, but I use the soap. You, the soap is my favorite. You you've even had like Melissa's cupcakes soap and you have all this other soap. I I I love the soap. And so,

How how about on toothpaste? Can you write that? Okay. That's how you expand. And that's exactly what they've done. I actually don't use the deodorant, but I use the soap. You, the soap is my favorite. You you've even had like Melissa's cupcakes soap and you have all this other soap. I I I love the soap. And so,

01:08:57

your,

your,

01:08:58

is that right at the bottom? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And your body wash, and you, your smart ass reply was their strategy and it worked. So congratulations.

is that right at the bottom? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And your body wash, and you, your smart ass reply was their strategy and it worked. So congratulations.

01:09:08

Yeah. Just like a guy in the back, just taking notes.

Yeah. Just like a guy in the back, just taking notes.

01:09:12

Yeah. He's gonna call someone. Hey, guys. Can we write native on this bottle

Yeah. He's gonna call someone. Hey, guys. Can we write native on this bottle

01:09:18

Can we do that? It was bananas. I remember that. Right on. Moiz, thanks for coming on, And we appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much.

Can we do that? It was bananas. I remember that. Right on. Moiz, thanks for coming on, And we appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much.

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