Encarta | MFM #162: Why Clubhouse Will Fail

00:00

My favorite,

00:00

My favorite,

00:01

kind of, podcaster content person out there.

00:01

kind of, podcaster content person out there.

00:04

DME was like, this is this is this is a fucking great thread. And,

00:04

DME was like, this is this is this is a fucking great thread. And,

00:09

I was like, blown away that this guy wrote this. And then CNBC was like, Hey, would you like to do this? Some German news station was like, well, you come on and talk about it. And I was like, wow, this is unbelievable what could happen with just a random ass tweet.

00:09

00:23

I feel like I could root the world I know I could be what I want to.

00:23

I feel like I could root the world I know I could be what I want to.

00:28

I put my all in it like days. I was on a road. Let's travel never

00:28

I put my all in it like days. I was on a road. Let's travel never

00:33

How many,

00:33

How many,

00:34

people did your tweet reach?

00:34

people did your tweet reach?

00:37

How many people did my tweet reach? Yeah. So go to Twitter and then click insight and then look at reach. I'm gonna guess five million.

00:37

How many people did my tweet reach? Yeah. So go to Twitter and then click insight and then look at reach. I'm gonna guess five million.

00:44

Okay. Let's give it a shot. So it has thirteen thousand likes.

00:44

Okay. Let's give it a shot. So it has thirteen thousand likes.

00:49

And, yeah, almost five million, four point eight million

00:49

And, yeah, almost five million, four point eight million

00:52

impressions.

00:52

impressions.

00:54

Wow.

00:54

Wow.

00:55

And how who all who are some of the more interesting

00:55

And how who all who are some of the more interesting

00:58

people who reached out to you. Well, first, what what what did you what happened here for the listeners? You know? Okay. So what happened?

00:58

people who reached out to you. Well, first, what what what did you what happened here for the listeners? You know? Okay. So what happened?

01:05

I went on Twitter, and I

01:05

I went on Twitter, and I

01:08

wrote a thread. I wrote a thread about Clubhouse, and the thread starts basically saying, you know, everybody seems to think that Clubhouse is the next big thing. And,

01:08

wrote a thread. I wrote a thread about Clubhouse, and the thread starts basically saying, you know, everybody seems to think that Clubhouse is the next big thing. And,

01:17

I think it's gonna fail, and here's how I think it's gonna go down. And then I wrote it in this way that's a little bit, like,

01:17

I think it's gonna fail, and here's how I think it's gonna go down. And then I wrote it in this way that's a little bit, like,

01:24

goofy. I kinda went over the top. I just I was like, alright. You're the CEO. Like, first of all, congrats, champ. You did it, you know, and I walk through, like, the high that they're on right now because everything's going great and everybody thinks it's the hot shit.

01:24

01:37

And then, like, where things might start to go wrong and what what might go wrong based on, you know, the way that the product is set up, the nature of that product, and all that good stuff. And so

01:37

And then, like, where things might start to go wrong and what what might go wrong based on, you know, the way that the product is set up, the nature of that product, and all that good stuff. And so

01:47

that, that was a thread. I put it out there.

01:47

that, that was a thread. I put it out there.

01:50

And, I thought it was gonna kinda flopped because right away nothing happened. And usually, you could tell, like, you know, this. You could tell pretty quickly. Within a couple minutes, you know, if the thread if your tweet's gonna any action or not. It didn't look like it was gonna get any action. And the first reply was this guy being like,

01:50

02:05

dude, this is way too effing long. Like, What are you doing? And, like, the way you said, like, I thought I I assume some people was like, this is super long because it's like, I don't know, fifty tweets or something crazy.

02:05

02:17

But when he was like, what are you doing? I felt super embarrassed, and I was like, shit. Let me just delete this. This is stupid. And then I just, like, let it ride for a few more minutes and then, it took off. And now some crazy shit's happening, and, like, I'm going on CNBC tomorrow to talk about shit. So all kinds of crazy stuff is You're going on CNBC tomorrow?

02:17

02:37

Yeah. I wonder if it's the same person who invited Trung on, so you're the second person associated with the company who's been on in the past two weeks. I'm hot on trunks heels. I saw him on last week talking about, Kathy Wood and ARC and stuff like that, and, he was great. So If I can do half as good as he did, I'll be in good shape. And who else reached out to? Can you say? You told me a couple?

02:37

02:58

Yeah. I mean, okay. So I can't say all the names say what okay. So first, I started getting mentioned,

02:58

Yeah. I mean, okay. So I can't say all the names say what okay. So first, I started getting mentioned,

03:04

by a bunch of cool people. So, like, the guy who started YouTube was like, dude, this is fucking hilarious. Like, I love this. And then, so that a bunch of people who should have started big companies kind of were saying something, and I started getting DMs from people

03:04

03:18

And and I kinda went to sleep. I at first, I was refreshing for, like, four hours because I couldn't stop.

03:18

And and I kinda went to sleep. I at first, I was refreshing for, like, four hours because I couldn't stop.

03:24

Like, I was mid workout And then, like, between sets, I would go check my Twitter. It was kind of annoying. And somebody was like, what the hell are you doing? Like, what is this? And I was like, I don't know. I'm obsessed. I I really just wanna see. It was like I would pull the refresh thing and then a different kind of famous person who I look up to was usually saying, like, this is awesome or something like that. That was kind of addictive.

03:24

03:44

I went to sleep, and I woke up the next day. And so in my inbox is a

03:44

I went to sleep, and I woke up the next day. And so in my inbox is a

03:48

offer for a book deal.

03:48

offer for a book deal.

03:51

Like a famous movie director who directed, like, a bunch of movies that we've heard of,

03:51

Like a famous movie director who directed, like, a bunch of movies that we've heard of,

03:56

wrote, like, dude, amazing storytelling. This is all like, found my email address and emailed me that. He's the I think I could say it. He's the director of, like, Space Jam two and, like, a whole bunch of famous movies. And then,

03:56

04:09

I don't know if I could say this one, but my favorite, kind of, podcast or content person out

04:09

I don't know if I could say this one, but my favorite, kind of, podcast or content person out

04:12

there

04:12

there

04:16

DME was like, this is this is this is a fucking great thread.

04:16

DME was like, this is this is this is a fucking great thread.

04:20

And,

04:20

And,

04:21

I was like, blown away that this guy wrote this. And then CNBC was like, hey, would you like to do this? Some German news station was like, well, you come on and talk about it. And I was like, wow, this is unbelievable. What could happen with just a random ass tweet? Like I was gonna take you to write. Not even a good one, really.

04:21

04:36

It took me an hour. I sat down and I saw so the way this played out actually was

04:36

It took me an hour. I sat down and I saw so the way this played out actually was

04:41

I had already believed this, but I thought, okay.

04:41

I had already believed this, but I thought, okay.

04:45

That's not cool. Like, nobody thinks it's cool to just say, oh, a startup is gonna Well, duh, most startups fail. So, like, there's nothing that original there. But because I had built a product very similar to Club boss, I kinda knew what the challenges are gonna be, and

04:45

04:59

where they might get tripped up or what's gonna be really hard for them. And,

04:59

where they might get tripped up or what's gonna be really hard for them. And,

05:04

and so I thought, well, I kind of feel like I know the product strategy here, but, like, It's kind of a if I just write about the product decision, like, some of the product challenges and the product strategy, it's a pretty boring tweet storm. Nobody's gonna really care. So when I ended up writing it, I wrote it like an episode of Silicon Valley. In fact, Erli's ability to jerk different dicks simultaneously.

05:04

05:28

Shit. Yeah. I think it would. Like, the HBO show, like, I basically wrote it in that style. Like,

05:28

Shit. Yeah. I think it would. Like, the HBO show, like, I basically wrote it in that style. Like,

05:33

I wrote, like, you know, okay, you know, Emily Chang invites you on to, you know, whatever, CNBC and,

05:33

I wrote, like, you know, okay, you know, Emily Chang invites you on to, you know, whatever, CNBC and,

05:40

to do an interview, you know, you wear your your visionary

05:40

to do an interview, you know, you wear your your visionary

05:43

gray v neck shirt, you go on and you say this, this, and this. And so I was just kind of writing, like, a goofy style. I wasn't just writing information. I'll try to entertain a little bit. And, and then Emily Chang replies to the thing being like, you know, I can't confirm or deny this, but this is on point.

05:43

05:56

And,

05:56

And,

05:57

So all kinds of crazy stuff was happening. But it, yeah, it took me about an hour, and then I just hit publish. And you got, like, thirty thousand followers from it. Congratulations or twenty thousand, maybe.

05:58

06:06

Yeah. That dude, that's that Twitter works though is, like, you think it goes against, like, all the conventional good advice, which is just like, you know, be consistent, put out contact all the time and, like, you know, try to hit, like, hit a bunch of singles.

06:06

06:19

And, like, what I found and I think, I don't know. You tell me if you found this too, which is, like, It's just like five tweets that grew me from twenty k to a hundred twenty k. Five tweets. Everything else was a cost of doing business. It's a it's the hits business. Yeah. It is.

06:19

06:33

And,

06:33

And,

06:36

so so summarize this, actually. I bet you asked me to ask you to summarize this.

06:36

so so summarize this, actually. I bet you asked me to ask you to summarize this.

06:40

The your bare case for Clubhouse because we're actually gonna use this probably for one of our Twitter videos.

06:40

The your bare case for Clubhouse because we're actually gonna use this probably for one of our Twitter videos.

06:46

Okay. Alright. So, alright. So, well, let me Okay. We gotta we gotta we gotta we gotta get the the video guys. Video guys, this is the part you're gonna edit. Alright. Here we go.

06:46

Okay. Alright. So, alright. So, well, let me Okay. We gotta we gotta we gotta we gotta get the the video guys. Video guys, this is the part you're gonna edit. Alright. Here we go.

06:55

So everybody's saying that clubhouse is the next page. Thing. You're hearing about it all the time. They went, you know, from

06:55

So everybody's saying that clubhouse is the next page. Thing. You're hearing about it all the time. They went, you know, from

07:01

a test I think they were in test flight, and they raised a one billion dollar valuation which is kind of crazy to apples. No. They're in test white. They raised at a hundred million. But it's Right. But now they're at a billion dollar valuation. It hasn't been long. They're still iOS only still pretty exclusive. You can't even you can't even join the app unless you have an invite. And so,

07:01

07:18

but I see the other side of it. I think that they're gonna fail. I hope they don't fail. I think the world is more fun if they win. It would be awesome if they win, but

07:18

but I see the other side of it. I think that they're gonna fail. I hope they don't fail. I think the world is more fun if they win. It would be awesome if they win, but

07:27

I don't think me wanting them to win doesn't mean that the what's gonna happen. I I sort of I said in the Twitter thread. I said, you know, if, if me wanting something to happen would happen, then every bag of chips would come with guac, but that's just not the way life is. And, and so, okay. So here here's how it works. Sorry. For ten, you're the CEO of clubhouse Sam.

07:27

07:44

You know, first of all, you fucking did it. You made it. People actually like the thing you made. I and they don't like it. They love it. And, you know, you check your DMs and, Chris, sockas in your DMs, and he says, dude, congrats. This thing is this thing is kick ass. And, you know, Naval is liking your tweets. And Keith or Boy is basically saying, like, this isn't shit.

07:44

08:04

You know, this is not garbage. And so you take that as a huge compliment as it is. And it feels like every day you open up the app and, like, a new

08:04

You know, this is not garbage. And so you take that as a huge compliment as it is. And it feels like every day you open up the app and, like, a new

08:11

Star is coming on the platform. Like, first kind of, like, just tech,

08:11

Star is coming on the platform. Like, first kind of, like, just tech,

08:15

dark stars, like, you know, the Mark Andresons and Ben Horowitz, people that we like, but they're kind of niche in our in our circles.

08:15

dark stars, like, you know, the Mark Andresons and Ben Horowitz, people that we like, but they're kind of niche in our in our circles.

08:22

And then it'll expand and all of a sudden you'll get, you know, NBA players coming on, you know, famous musicians,

08:22

And then it'll expand and all of a sudden you'll get, you know, NBA players coming on, you know, famous musicians,

08:28

Logan Paul will come on and then this was the most liked tweet in the thing was I said, you know, Gary V realizes that you created a new place to yell, and he starts telling everybody if you really wanna make money, go move back in with your parents and sell their furniture on Craigslist. And,

08:28

08:43

so every life is good. Right? You get a term sheet, you're valued at a billion dollars, and

08:43

so every life is good. Right? You get a term sheet, you're valued at a billion dollars, and

08:47

you know, you're doing interviews about, you know, and you gotta kinda ham it up. Right? Because you can't just say, oh, I made this app where you can go in chat rooms and talk to people. That doesn't sound very

08:47

08:56

very fancy. So you try to play it simple, but you talk really fancy. You say things like, you know, this is like a this is a serendipity network. This is this is not not just chat rooms. This is audio escapism. This is, you know, then you start saying, like, historical shit. Like, you're like, you know, humans have been talking to each other since the dawn of time, you know, around the camp, you know, around the campfire. And, you know, audio is so powerful because you can see your your tone and texture.

08:56

09:21

And,

09:21

And,

09:22

and so you're going on the media tour and then, like, you get back to your computer one day and you look at the charts and, you know, the graph doesn't look as, you know, as upbeat into the righty as it's supposed to be. And so you're like, what's what's wrong with this thing? You refresh. And

09:22

09:36

still,

09:36

still,

09:37

the, you know, the growth is kinda flat, maybe even declining. And you you start to look a little deeper. And what you'll find if you're the CEO of of Clubhouse is after about, you know, a year into the product, you see that retention is not so good. It's not as good as it used to be in the early days. And, you know, why is that the case? And and what will happen is that you'll realize that clubhouse is used for two totally different things. There's two ways that clubhouse can be used. If you talk to users or you watch them, you'll see these two things. Number one,

09:37

10:03

It's a place to create content.

10:03

It's a place to create content.

10:06

And number two, it's a place to just chill just to go hang out with other people and have conversations.

10:06

And number two, it's a place to just chill just to go hang out with other people and have conversations.

10:11

And so content is what we see all the time on there. It's panels, it's fireside chats, Q and A's, AmAs.

10:11

And so content is what we see all the time on there. It's panels, it's fireside chats, Q and A's, AmAs.

10:17

And it's like, oh, this is content. It's like the next YouTube. It's where you go. You make make content and people consume it.

10:17

And it's like, oh, this is content. It's like the next YouTube. It's where you go. You make make content and people consume it.

10:23

You know, and the problem is that a lot of the content, like on YouTube, is just like, meh. You're right? Ninety eight percent of the content is junk.

10:23

You know, and the problem is that a lot of the content, like on YouTube, is just like, meh. You're right? Ninety eight percent of the content is junk.

10:30

And, that's okay. That's the same for every platform. You just need to find that gold. And there is gold on Clubhouse, right, if you the Good Times Show or the the NYU Girls who go on there and they they had that show called shoot your shot. That is gold, but,

10:30

10:44

you and so you wanna triple down on that. You're like, guys, this is what this is what we need to double down on. How do we make this? How do we get more gold content? And you tell the whole team, we're gonna go get more gold content. And so the engineers, they go start building features for content creators. They build, like, a scheduling feature and q and a tools and, like, a monetization features, or you can make money from your fans. And the creators are happy, but the retention stays bad. And what you realize when you talk to somebody who knows what they're they're they're talking about here is that there's this, like, problem called the interestingness problem, which is that when you open up an app,

10:44

11:17

there's one metric that matters called TTF.

11:17

there's one metric that matters called TTF.

11:19

And TTF is time to fun. How long does it take me to have some fun inside this app? Get some dopamine.

11:19

And TTF is time to fun. How long does it take me to have some fun inside this app? Get some dopamine.

11:25

And all the great apps within seven seconds. If you open TikTok, YouTube, Instagram in seven seconds, you're gonna get something juicy. You're gonna get fun.

11:25

And all the great apps within seven seconds. If you open TikTok, YouTube, Instagram in seven seconds, you're gonna get something juicy. You're gonna get fun.

11:35

And,

11:35

And,

11:35

and, you know, the way those apps do it is they have billions of pieces of content to choose from, and the algorithm knows, okay, this is the most liked content. The last twenty four hours So it shoves it in your feed. And when you open the app, it's gonna show you something great. Right? TikTok calls us the for you page because it's here's the best stuff for you. And that's why TikTok is so addictive. Every time you open it, you get something great. But for Clubhouse, you know, you tell your engineers, hey, that's what we need. Make an algorithm that will do that. And the engineers, you know, they they sit you down in a chair and they'll say, okay, we're gonna do our best, but just so you know, it doesn't, like,

11:35

12:08

It's one thing to just find what's interesting, but we have to find what's interesting and is being created live right now. And

12:08

It's one thing to just find what's interesting, but we have to find what's interesting and is being created live right now. And

12:15

When you multiply those two things together, it doesn't become twice as hard. It becomes two hundred times as hard to find interesting content when you open the app. And so the what happens is most people will download this app. They heard about Clubhouse. They heard it's cool. They'll open an app. And whatever's on right then, they'll walk into the first room. And it'll be kinda boring. It'll be kinda meh. And then they'll walk into a second room, and then within thirty seconds, like, why the hell am I here? This app is stupid. They'll close the app, and they'll probably never come back. And so they'll get a bunch of downloads, a bunch of sign ups, and then but they'll all just be leaking out the bottom of the bucket.

12:15

12:47

And so, you know, you're the CEO, and so you're like, oh, Okay. Yeah. Live is harder. I get it, but Twitch did it. Twitch is live and look at that. They got, you know, hundreds of millions of users. So clearly, it can work. You guys, the engineers, you guys just need to make it happen.

12:47

13:01

And then, you know, the product manager, the engineers will come back to you and they'll say, well, Twitch is a little different. Right? Because

13:01

And then, you know, the product manager, the engineers will come back to you and they'll say, well, Twitch is a little different. Right? Because

13:06

On Twitch, the great content creators are creating about forty hours a week of content, they stream every day, six to eight hours a day. And,

13:06

On Twitch, the great content creators are creating about forty hours a week of content, they stream every day, six to eight hours a day. And,

13:14

they're playing a game so they could do that. They can play a game for six hours straight and just talk while they're doing it. It's hard, but it's not anywhere near as hard as just opening clubhouse and being entertaining for six hours straight while talking. Maybe some radio hosts can do that, but the average person cannot.

13:14

13:28

And,

13:28

And,

13:29

And then the second thing they'll say is, like, also, you know, almost all the content on Twitch is about gaming.

13:29

And then the second thing they'll say is, like, also, you know, almost all the content on Twitch is about gaming.

13:35

So as a viewer, if I come on there, maybe one creator's not live, but another Fortnite creators live or another Fortnite creators live, it's like density around one passion, whereas clubhouse is every category. Some people come there for music talks, some for sports, some for tech. And so if I'm a sports person and I see a tech room, that's of zero value to me. So

13:35

13:55

Twitch's vertical us horizontal, this is gonna be really hard to get great content in every category.

13:55

Twitch's vertical us horizontal, this is gonna be really hard to get great content in every category.

14:01

And so, you know, I kinda fast forward and, you know, you okay. This is tough. And,

14:01

And so, you know, I kinda fast forward and, you know, you okay. This is tough. And,

14:05

you know, your your meeting ends, the next meeting, engineers leave, next meeting is the biz dev guys. Biz dev guys come in, and the biz dev guys are like, you know, they're what do you want us to do boss? And you say, you need to go get great content. Go get all the stars. We got all this money in the bank. Go go pick, cut some checks. Let's get some star creators on the platform.

14:05

14:21

And you'll go to people,

14:21

And you'll go to people,

14:22

who have who have a big audience, who go to podcasters. Right? You'll go to people like us. And then we're gonna say, okay. So if I could spend an hour on clubhouse and get I don't know, two thousand, three thousand people in the room, that's good. Right? But, like, if I just record a podcast, I'm gonna reach three hundred thousand people with that. So why am I why would I ever make this trade? Why would I go live here when I go live there, right, when I could just record my podcast?

14:22

14:45

You're the CEO, you say, alright. That's a tricky problem. But maybe you could do both. Right? Why do you have to choose? Do your show live on Clubhouse,

14:45

You're the CEO, you say, alright. That's a tricky problem. But maybe you could do both. Right? Why do you have to choose? Do your show live on Clubhouse,

14:52

and we'll add a recording feature that you could just make a podcast out of it later. You can have your cake and eat it too.

14:52

and we'll add a recording feature that you could just make a podcast out of it later. You can have your cake and eat it too.

14:58

And so you do that and some creators start to use it, but, you realize there's a big problem with that. Which is as soon as you start to, like, let people record and the core thing becomes,

14:58

And so you do that and some creators start to use it, but, you realize there's a big problem with that. Which is as soon as you start to, like, let people record and the core thing becomes,

15:08

I'm recording my podcast here. I'm just doing a live version that will turn into my podcast turn into a YouTube video. Well,

15:08

I'm recording my podcast here. I'm just doing a live version that will turn into my podcast turn into a YouTube video. Well,

15:15

then this live thing becomes a second class citizen, and I stop letting guests hop on my clubhouse room and chat with me because I don't know what the hell they're gonna say. It's unpredictable.

15:15

then this live thing becomes a second class citizen, and I stop letting guests hop on my clubhouse room and chat with me because I don't know what the hell they're gonna say. It's unpredictable.

15:24

And, you know, what makes for a great live session is that spontaneity,

15:24

And, you know, what makes for a great live session is that spontaneity,

15:27

but that makes for a shitty recording. And so, you know, that's, so that's another trap there.

15:27

but that makes for a shitty recording. And so, you know, that's, so that's another trap there.

15:33

So, okay, are you finally you have an emergency team meeting? You say this whole content thing sucks

15:33

So, okay, are you finally you have an emergency team meeting? You say this whole content thing sucks

15:37

You know, we we only have a few pieces of great content only a few hours a week for every vertical. This is gonna be impossible to do in every category. That's like recreating all of TV. And, that's just really hard to do.

15:37

15:49

You know, and and I'm tired of all these people on there doing shows and q and a's and these success coaches trying to manifest millionaires and all this bullshit. You know, what is this? Discored for douchebags, like, screw shows. We need a new plan. And we go we're going to plan b. Plan b is chilling. Right? This is a social network. It's not a performance network. You come here to socialize. You come here to just talk to other people. That's the most human thing in the world. Seven billion people on earth talk to their friends. This is what, you know, this is what we'll do here. And, you know, you you you you ask people who had a great experience so far in clubhouse, the people who think it's amazing, like, our, you know, our friend Narendra or, you know, bit different people who have really enjoyed their experience. And you ask them why, and they'll say, well, I came on. And I was I was in this room where this really cool thing happened, and Mark Anderson was there, and then this guy was there. And then, you know, I went into a side room, and I met a bunch of other cool people in the tech world, and We got along great. I made a bunch of new friends.

15:49

16:40

And you say, alright. That's what we're gonna do. And, and sure enough, that actually solves your retention problem because people will come here. It'll it will solve loneliness. People will come here. They'll hang out and they'll make friends. But all of a sudden, your growth will stall.

16:40

16:53

Right? Because if I'm coming here to make friends, and I'm not bringing friends to the platform, that's kind of the the the rub there. Right? So any platform where the value prop is to make friends I'm not gonna bring friends. So now you have sticky retention, but now you have no growth. And in the other world, you had fast growth, but no retention. And so you're stuck in this catch twenty two.

16:53

17:12

And,

17:12

And,

17:13

you know, so then, you know, just to kinda round it out, you you eventually get disillusioned. You realize this shit's not gonna work. You try to pivot. You eventually sell the company to Facebook. You spend a year as the manager of Facebook voice. And, then you quit. You go. You travel in Southeast Asia for a year. You do some Ayahuasca.

17:13

17:29

And you vow to yourself, I'm only gonna ever work in enterprise SAS again, you know, screw this social thing. And, so that's my story.

17:29

And you vow to yourself, I'm only gonna ever work in enterprise SAS again, you know, screw this social thing. And, so that's my story.

17:38

Over the top. I hope I'm wrong, but I think that's how it's gonna play out. And I think a lot of people who are hate when you didn't realize that this is the life that you led.

17:38

Over the top. I hope I'm wrong, but I think that's how it's gonna play out. And I think a lot of people who are hate when you didn't realize that this is the life that you led.

17:46

Yeah. Yeah. Some people are like, wow, that's really detailed. Where is this? Where is this coming from? And some people are like, dude, that's way over the top. And I'm like, dude, I built this before. Like, we built so similar to this. They grew to four million users and Tony Robbins was using it and ESPN was using it and the Jonas brothers and then Oracle was using it and then you know, some of the tech guys and the thirty seven signals guys were using it, and it was awesome. Product hope we're using it. And then we hit the, you know, we get to four million members, and we just started to see these same issues. And we tried everything to fix it. And I hope these guys find the solution that we missed or maybe the world has changed or there's some differences.

17:46

Yeah. Yeah. Some people are like, wow, that's really detailed. Where is this? Where is this coming from? And some people are like, dude, that's way over the top. And I'm like, dude, I built this before. Like, we built that app so similar to this. They grew to four million users and Tony Robbins was using it and ESPN was using it and the Jonas brothers and then Oracle was using it and then you know, some of the tech guys and the thirty seven signals guys were using it, and it was awesome. Product hope we're using it. And then we hit the, you know, we get to four million members, and we just started to see these same issues. And we tried everything to fix it. And I hope these guys find the solution that we missed or maybe the world has changed or there's some differences.

18:20

But the reason I've, you know, this was seventy percent my experience,

18:20

But the reason I've, you know, this was seventy percent my experience,

18:23

thirty percent, you know, fantasy

18:23

thirty percent, you know, fantasy

18:26

that I wrote this thing with.

18:26

that I wrote this thing with.

18:27

I guess, we're gonna have to check-in on this podcast

18:27

I guess, we're gonna have to check-in on this podcast

18:31

in, like, maybe one year. I bet I think we'll see how things shake out in about twelve months.

18:31

in, like, maybe one year. I bet I think we'll see how things shake out in about twelve months.

18:36

Yeah. And I guess, like, the more interesting part that I wanted to talk to you about was okay. So,

18:36

Yeah. And I guess, like, the more interesting part that I wanted to talk to you about was okay. So,

18:41

first of all, creating something that goes is such a crazy feeling. And you've done it a ton. I mean, you built the hustle with a bunch of really viral blog posts. Like, this is kinda nothing in comparison to the blog post you guys wrote.

18:41

18:54

And also, you're a writer. So you kinda have a process where you sniff out

18:54

And also, you're a writer. So you kinda have a process where you sniff out

18:58

stuff that you think is gonna go viral. Whereas for me, I'm not really a writer. This is kinda me just trying to get it. You

18:58

stuff that you think is gonna go viral. Whereas for me, I'm not really a writer. This is kinda me just trying to get it. You

19:05

you you have the it factor. I think that

19:05

you you have the it factor. I think that

19:08

I think you can study in how to do it. I think that you can just be born with the skill set.

19:08

I think you can study in how to do it. I think that you can just be born with the skill set.

19:14

I think you and I are quite similar in that it's both born or we we have that natural gift and also we learn and master the craft. Right. I think you've you've tried it a lot more and therefore your hit rate I think is is higher. Personally, I just think that. But, the question I was gonna ask you No. I mean, dude, you got to a hundred and twenty thousand followers on Twitter in, like, basically six months.

19:14

19:35

Yeah. That's true. So I I wanted to share. So when I, so the way this this came about because I think this is ultimately more interesting. Right? The the rant is kind of interesting, but the how this happened. I think for people who are listening, they'll probably find it I think they find it interesting.

19:35

19:50

The way this started was, a pretty high

19:50

The way this started was, a pretty high

19:53

profile VC person called me one day. I had never met them before. They had said, oh, you seem interesting on Twitter. I'd love to meet. So we did a phone call. And then we were talking just about each other's background. It was cool. And then they were like, well, what do you think a clubhouse by the way? I gotta ask.

19:53

20:06

And,

20:06

And,

20:07

And I think they asked this because they had looked at investing. They ultimately didn't invest, and they were trying to figure out, like, am I gonna kick is this gonna be is this gonna haunt me? You know, for the next five years that I missed this deal, or is this gonna be a good one? And, you know, a good pass. And I basically I I just went on this rant on the phone about this. It just kinda came out of my mouth, and it led just the way I kind of explained it here. And,

20:07

20:28

without the whole, like, kind of dramatized,

20:28

without the whole, like, kind of dramatized,

20:30

like, TV show script. But just the reasons why I think it's gonna struggle.

20:30

like, TV show script. But just the reasons why I think it's gonna struggle.

20:35

And,

20:35

And,

20:36

and they were like, wow, that was great. So, like, that was amazing. And I I was like, shit. I should have wrote down. That was, like,

20:36

and they were like, wow, that was great. So, like, that was amazing. And I I was like, shit. I should have wrote down. That was, like,

20:42

that would have,

20:42

that would have,

20:43

I feel like that would have been, like, a good, like, piece of content. And so I went in I like quickly was like, I gotta go. And I hung up the phone, and I went to my computer, and I just typed the whole thing out.

20:43

20:54

And, and turned it, like, and then I was like, okay, whatever. I I kinda edit it. I took it out. I did your your tip, which is I took a break for an hour. Yeah. When it went and did something else, came back and I edited it for about thirty minutes. Edit is the magic to everything. It doesn't matter if you're talking about a viral tweet, a good email, editing is the magic. They say, right drunk, edit sober.

20:55

and turned it, like, and then I was like, okay, whatever. I I kinda edit it. I took it out. I did your your tip, which is I took a break for an hour. Yeah. When it went and did something else, came back and I edited it for about thirty minutes. Edit is the magic to everything. It doesn't matter if you're talking about a viral tweet, a good email, editing is the magic. They say write drunk, edit sober.

21:14

Oh, that's a great one. I've never heard that. I love that. I think they're in a tummy way. I used to just I used to just edit in the moment. Like, I'd write it in the video. And that was a mistake. The tip you gave me a while back was go do other shit. Let it simmer in your head while you do other things. Don't even actively think about it. The time you come back, you can make it twice as good in twenty minutes. And that's Yeah. And there's actually some science behind it. I I I I can't tell you the exact science off the top of my head, but basically, you know how there's like a shower thought

21:14

21:39

of, like, not doing it. So there's, like, science behind, like, doing something really hard and then not doing it and then things hit you.

21:39

of, like, not doing it. So there's, like, science behind, like, doing something really hard and then not doing it and then things hit you.

21:46

There there's science behind why that works. And that's kinda what you're doing. Yeah. Basically, like, the brain relaxes in some way. And then when it relaxes, it's able to be creative in a in a new way. And so,

21:46

There there's science behind why that works, and that's kinda what you're doing. Yeah. Basically, like, the brain relaxes in some way. And then when it relaxes, it's able to be creative in a in a new way. And so,

21:56

Okay. So then I post it and then whatever, you know, it should go well. So then,

21:56

Okay. So then I post it and then whatever, you know, it should go well. So then,

22:01

so that was the that was the oh, sorry. The other part that I that I forgot, which I think is my new It's something I've been doing. And I'm curious if you do something like this.

22:01

so that was the that was the oh, sorry. The other part that I that I forgot, which I think is my new It's something I've been doing. And I'm curious if you do something like this.

22:09

Before

22:09

Before,

22:10

before I write anything now, at the top of every page, I have a template, and at the top There's, like, seven lines that says, what reaction is this meant to get? And I have seven emotions. It's, like, l o l, like, this is meant to be really funny. Is it w t t f where it's like, dude, what the fuck? And that's when you're talking about something that's really unjust or people are pissed off and you wanna you wanna explain, hey, there's this really messed up thing that's happening and people will be like, oh my god.

22:10

before I write anything now, at the top of every page, I have a template, and at the top There's, like, seven lines that says, what reaction is this meant to get? And I have seven emotions. It's, like, l o l. Like, this is meant to be really funny. Is it w t t f where it's like, dude, what the fuck? And that's when you're talking about something that's really unjust or people are pissed off and you wanna you wanna explain, hey, there's this really messed up thing that's happening and people will be like, oh my god.

22:37

Then there's other ones, like, you know, like, a w a w w something really cute. A w e r, like, like, that something is awesome. Like, wow, that is, like, kind of amazing.

22:37

Then there's other ones, like, you know, like, a w a w w something really cute. A w e r, like, like, that something is awesome. Like, wow, that is, like, kind of amazing.

22:46

Wait. Did I tell you that I do this?

22:46

Wait. Did I tell you that I do this?

22:48

No. I actually learned this from these other guys who make viral videos, rubber, Republic.

22:48

No. I actually learned this from these other guys who make viral videos, rubber, Republic.

22:53

They had a search engine

22:53

They had a search engine

22:55

where you would just search by one of these emotions and it would pull up viral videos that had that that were based on that emotion. Why this as well? So the way to go viral is you always wanna start

22:55

23:05

you start with the emotion that you're trying to get out of someone.

23:05

you start with the emotion that you're trying to get out of someone.

23:08

And you and we already know that certain emotions get more shares.

23:08

And you and we already know that certain emotions get more shares.

23:12

So for example, creating depression or sadness that doesn't get shares.

23:12

So for example, creating depression or sadness that doesn't get shares.

23:17

Creating outrage gets far more. And with small tweaks, you can make something sad outrageous, and that's far better. Right. You know, so it's either amazing. It's super funny. It's really, really outraging.

23:17

23:29

It's,

23:29

It's,

23:30

it's really touching and heartwarming. That's another one. Hard to do. And then the one I had for this, which is kind of like a new emotion, which was I wrote,

23:30

it's really touching and heartwarming. That's another one. Hard to do. And then the one I had for this, which is kind of like a new emotion, which was I wrote,

23:38

finally

23:38

finally

23:39

someone said it, And I actually think that's a that's its own genre that I didn't even have in my template because I was like, I think this is gonna go viral, but it doesn't match any of these. I was like, I think for some people it's gonna be WTF, like, dude this guy's a jerk. Is he predicting failure? What a what an asshole? I thought, no, it's gonna go viral because if you say something that a lot of people have been thinking, but they've been afraid to say, or they couldn't put words around it exactly, but they had this hunch, they will share it because they agree with your opinion and you state their opinion for them. It's the idea of recognizing

23:39

24:07

something that you feel that you weren't sure if other people feel, but you see it on paper. So the same example is with location. So when you see, like,

24:07

something that you feel that you weren't sure if other people feel, but you see it on paper. So the same example is with location. So when you see, like,

24:15

how you know you're a San Francisco bro, or how do I know, do you know Sean per like, if I said, if I saw an ad that said, do you know Sean? I'd be like, Oh, wait. That's directed just towards me. And so with the emotion that you just evoked was, like, finally, I didn't think I was the only one who thought, like, it's a recognizing it's a it's a rec recognizing something type of vibe. And they're they're really sharing because they're like, I knew it. I I'm right. So they're not saying, wow, he's so right. They're actually saying, I'm right. Read this. This proves I'm right. Which is like a real subtle thing, but I'm so interested in studying the, like, psychology around why people do what they do. Why do they share what they share?

24:15

24:52

Because I wanna grow an audience, and this is the best way to grow it. And, I feel like this I'm I'm this process that I'm doing. I'm so glad you said you do it too because I thought I was a little crazy. I was like, oh, my gosh. No. That's what we used to do. I mean, that's what I do. When I I'm like, I I I start with the emotion, then I start with the package, like, how am I packaging this? And then I start with the headline, then the preview image, and then I work backwards from there.

24:52

25:16

And I always trying to find, like, I'll find something that catches my attention. Just one factor, one line. So for example,

25:16

And I always trying to find, like, I'll find something that catches my attention. Just one factor, one line. So for example,

25:23

was just doing research on one yesterday. Do you know, what recaptcha is? You know, like,

25:23

was just doing research on one yesterday. Do you know, what recaptcha is? You know, like,

25:29

you know, signing up for something? You're signing up for something that says spot nowadays, they say, like, spot, click the thing or type in the, the, the, whatever pictures assigned, click it.

25:29

you know, signing up for something? You're signing up for something that says spot nowadays, they say, like, spot, click the thing or type in the, the, the, whatever pictures assigned, click it.

25:40

Yeah. It'll be like, you know, where are the traffic lights? Click all squares with traffic lights.

25:40

Yeah. It'll be like, you know, where are the traffic lights? Click all squares with traffic lights.

25:44

And, by the way, this is a good example. I saw this meme that was that recapture with the traffic lights. And in one of the squares, just the tiniest corner of the traffic light is in it, and it shows the guy, like, suit, like, sweating, like, crazy. Like, oh, fuck. Should I include that or should I not include that? And that's one of those where it's like me too, dude, I have I I almost feel that way. I'm almost confused by this thing. So we could turn that into a I always feel that way meme. Now here, I can take it another way. Do you wanna do a up when I looked that up on Wikipedia, you wanna hear a fun fact Do you know why they do it this way? Is because people like Google,

25:44

26:17

I might be butchering this just a little bit, but the idea is the same. People like Google are paying recaptcha

26:17

I might be butchering this just a little bit, but the idea is the same. People like Google are paying recaptcha

26:23

to translate stuff. So, for example, somehow picking out that sign or saying where the headlights are actually helps Google. And Google's paying you money. It's paying for capture. I have a little so so the original captcha was done by this guy. He was a professor at Duke and Carnegie Mellon, and CAPTIA originally was letters. Remember? It was always these, like, kind of, like, kinda hard to read letters, but you could read it. And that was basically taking they had scanned a bunch of book pages

26:23

to translate stuff. So, for example, somehow picking out that sign or saying where the headlights are actually helps Google. And Google's paying you money. It's paying for capture. I have a little so so the original captcha was done by this guy. He was a professor at Duke and Carnegie Mellon, and KaptIA originally was letters. Remember? It was always these, like, kind of, like, kinda hard to read letters, but you could read it. And that was basically taking they had scanned a bunch of book pages

26:47

But who's gonna convert the the the computer was not good enough at tran getting all the book pages

26:47

But who's gonna convert the the the computer was not good enough at tran getting all the book pages

26:53

to translate over to text in the computer because Some of the book pages are rolled around it or wrinkled or kind of fuzzy. And so the the computer can do it, but a human eye could easily do it. So they Yep. Basically outsource the work and solve two problems with one stone. On the website side, they just wanna make sure you're not a a bot who's signing up for their service, like, a scammer who's gonna spam everybody. But then

26:53

27:12

But then

27:14

they did good in the world also because that project

27:14

they did good in the world also because that project

27:17

ended up transcribing,

27:17

ended up transcribing,

27:18

like, millions and millions of books. I think all the books that they had scanned eventually. And then CAPTCHA two is about or recaptcha.

27:18

like, millions and millions of books. I think all the books that they had scanned eventually. And then CAPTCHA two is about or recaptcha.

27:25

I believe is about image classification. So for self driving cars, we need to know is is this a bus or what is this? And so I think that's where the original idea was, classifying images, let humans do it Wiley sign up. And the inventor of Recaptcha, the second one, his name is Lewis von Hahn. I think that's how you pronounce it. He did both and that guy started Duolingo. And he when he started duolingo, he started it for two reasons. One, he I guess he just cared about helping you learn language. But two, when you are learning the language, you're actually translating

27:25

27:56

stuff that a third party service is paying for you to translate.

27:56

stuff that a third party service is paying for you to translate.

28:00

So That's crazy.

28:00

So That's crazy.

28:01

What a genius? The exact

28:01

What a genius? The exact

28:04

emotion that you just had of this guy's crazy. That is the mo emotion. Wow. This guy's a genius. I am trying to evoke by sharing that. So I can tell that story in probably five tweets, and I bet it will, like, virality is pretty impossible to predict, but I can bet that there's, like, a three out of ten chance that it's gonna have that it has legs. I could save it. I could say this has all the,

28:04

28:25

this checks all the box to get popular. I can't I can't anyone who says that they're gonna be able to predict it, they're wrong. Like Sean's thing just reached five million people. He was like, this is not gonna

28:25

28:34

It's a lot more important. The other part the other part you had there that was good is that you took a thing that we've all seen. It's a relatable. Oh, yeah. I've I've filled one of those in and you So you took a very familiar thing, but I told you the uncommon truth around it, which I think is, like, really cool. Like, I and there's one yesterday, I saw you know, Tom Cruise's name is not Tom Cruise, his real name? No. What is it? It's Tom,

28:34

It's a lot more important. The other part the other part you had there that was good is that you took a thing that we've all seen. It's a relatable. Oh, yeah. I've I've filled one of those in and you So you took a very familiar thing, but I told you the uncommon truth around it, which I think is, like, really cool. Like, I and there's one yesterday I saw you know, Tom Cruise's name is not Tom Cruise, his real name? No. What is it? It's Tom,

28:57

Tom Cruise something. It's, like, his middle name is Cruz, and his last name is, like, some, like, Ray, look it up. It's some, like, I don't know, random ass, like, name. And he says it's Tom Cruise, which sounds like a total movie star name makes total sense that he did it. And,

28:57

29:11

says, yeah, his real name is Thomas Cruz

29:11

says, yeah, his real name is Thomas Cruz

29:13

Mapothor, the fourth or some I don't even know. Yeah. I can't even pronounce that. Mapothor. Yeah.

29:13

Mapothor, the fourth or some I don't even know. Yeah. I can't even pronounce that. Mapothor. Yeah.

29:19

Tom Mapothor. Versus Tom Cruise. And so you take something really familiar. We all know Tom Cruise. Right? Boom. Here's the uncommon. Did you know? And then it's like, oh, sweet. Like, wow. You know, and that one doesn't have as much shock factor, so it won't go super viral, but it'll get a lot of likes. But, you know, the the closer you can get to that

29:19

29:35

the surprise gap between what I thought I knew and what's real,

29:35

the surprise gap between what I thought I knew and what's real,

29:39

the more shares people will get. Yeah. I think if anyone cares about this stuff, I like the book made to stay and I like to book contagious by Jonah Burger.

29:39

the more shares people will get. Yeah. I think if anyone cares about this stuff, I like the book made to stay and I like to book contagious by Jonah Burger.

29:48

Contagious

29:48

Contagious

29:48

made to stick is how to to say something so people remember and contagious is a great book by this Warton professor on how to make things get popular. How to make them spread like a virus hence contagious.

29:48

29:59

I like it. I understand that. You wanna talk about paid newsletters really quick. A topic that we've discussed a lot.

29:59

I like it. I understand that. You wanna talk about paid newsletters really quick, a topic that we've discussed a lot.

30:05

Yeah. Let's do it. But this one is particularly interesting.

30:05

Yeah. Let's do it. But this one is particularly interesting.

30:09

The reason why is we've talked about this company a lot, Agora Financial. I've brought it up to you a ton.

30:09

The reason why is we've talked about this company a lot, Agora Financial. I've brought it up to you a ton.

30:14

They spun off a couple of their brands and they tried to do a spec. And when they tried to do back, the company that they were spacking with just like kinda like went down, like, dropped, like, significantly.

30:14

30:25

So they there was already a publicly traded company that was gonna buy a a few Agora brands. The stock went down big time, but that's not that important. What's important is the numbers behind this paid newsletter business. So there's this company called,

30:25

30:39

actually, I don't know what they call little. It's a subsidiary of Gordon,

30:39

actually, I don't know what they call little. It's a subsidiary of Gordon,

30:43

of Agora. I think they call it Beacon Hill. It owns six sorry. Twelve different newsletter brands. Collectively,

30:43

of Agora. I think they call it Beacon Hill. It owns six sorry. Twelve different newsletter brands. Collectively,

30:50

those newsletter brands

30:50

those newsletter brands

30:52

30:53

where did I put the number?

30:53

where did I put the number?

30:55

Five hundred and fifty million dollars in revenue.

30:55

Five hundred and fifty million dollars in revenue.

30:58

Two hundred million dollars in profit.

30:58

Two hundred million dollars in profit.

31:00

And by the way, growing some that grew seventy seven percent la over last year. Is that crazy? Now I'm gonna tell you all some more numbers. They have ten million free subscribers. So kind of like the hustle. That's like they've got ten million of that.

31:00

31:13

This is even wilder. They have five hundred and fifty thousand people paying them six hundred up between one dollar and six hundred dollars for subscribers

31:13

This is even wilder. They have five hundred and fifty thousand people paying them six hundred up between one dollar and six hundred dollars for subscribers

31:22

Then they have a quarter of a million people paying them six hundred dollars to five thousand dollars. And finally, they have a hundred thousand people. Paying them more than five grand for a product, for a paid newsletter.

31:22

31:35

And what is in this paid newsletter? What's the

31:35

And what is in this paid newsletter? What's the

31:38

here's where things

31:38

here's where things

31:39

get way here's where things get way crazier. They have some paid newsletters that cost thirty five thousand dollars. Now the reason why what gets cray what gets crazy with this is that they have a hundred and sixty products

31:39

31:52

across twelve brands. So what's math. So each each brand has twelve twelve or thirteen,

31:52

across twelve brands. So what's math. So each each brand has twelve twelve or thirteen,

31:57

products.

31:57

products.

31:58

And the products, I don't even understand, but basically, I understand the business model. The business model is they get you to buy a fifty or forty nine dollar thing, then they get you to buy a two thousand dollar thing. And they're and so they get you to buy that forty nine dollar thing, and that forty nine dollar thing is like a monthly paid newsletter. Like, it's not significant. Right. I don't understand

31:58

32:19

how they get it to work and a large percentage of those forty nine dollar people by the two thousand dollar thing. Okay. So, but if I feel like Okay. So these must be b to b newsletters. Right? No. They're not.

32:19

32:30

I yeah. That's an important part that I left out. Nearly all of this

32:30

I yeah. That's an important part that I left out. Nearly all of this

32:34

is around and we'll link to their deck. So they have a whole deck when they they they it's kind of scammy. So they it's a financial

32:34

is around and we'll link to their deck. So they have a whole deck when they they they it's kind of scammy. So they it's a financial

32:41

and a wellness company, which is kind of weird. They're talking about health and they're talking about wellness. And if you click a Gore up there, Sean, under my name, you'll see the deck. They say that their their target demographic is self directed investors. What's that mean? Well, I'm gonna tell you if I look at the website. It's just a bunch of old kind of wealthy white people who are probably Republican

32:41

33:02

And because the reason I think this is they have

33:02

And because the reason I think this is they have

33:05

ads that say, like, Nancy Pelosi is coming for your guns, you better invest in these eight stocks. Like, they say, like, crazy shit like that. Right. It's basically the, like, motley fool on,

33:05

ads that say, like, Nancy Pelosi is coming for your guns, you better invest in these eight stocks. Like, they say, like, crazy shit like that. Right. It's basically the, like, motley fool on,

33:15

you know,

33:15

you know,

33:16

steroids. Right? Yes.

33:16

steroids. Right? Yes.

33:19

But I think Molly fools ethical. These guys aren't they also sold a book on how to cure diabetes.

33:19

But I think Molly fools ethical. These guys aren't they also sold a book on how to cure diabetes.

33:24

Oh, okay. I was gonna ask you why do you think ethical, and then you answered my question.

33:24

Oh, okay. I was gonna ask you why do you think ethical, and then you answered my question.

33:29

And so it's all financial news financial

33:29

And so it's all financial news financial

33:32

newsletter,

33:32

newsletter,

33:33

financial

33:33

financial

33:34

news related stock picks.

33:34

news related stock picks.

33:37

And it's just a just a crazy story. I brought this up tons of time. We don't spend too much time on it, but it's pretty wild to actually see these numbers I actually guessed that this is how big they were. Now we have proof.

33:37

33:48

Yeah. You've been talking about Agora as, like, you know, doing hundreds of millions of dollars. And you know, some people know about them, but I would say most people don't know about this empire, and most people I mean, this blows away most people's expectations of, you know, paid newsletter. Right? Like, Oh, I'll, you know, like, I just had a paid newsletter as an individual. Right? I mean, you know, a few hundred thousand dollars total. And I thought I was crushing it. These guys are making hundreds of millions of dollars when you look at this,

33:48

34:13

my honest my honest reaction is,

34:13

my honest my honest reaction is,

34:15

dude, why couldn't you have done this with the hustle? Why? What what did they do or what was the why was the hill too hard to climb where you could scale like this, because this is huge. I don't think it was too hard to scale. I think I could have done it. I would say that this business has been around since the seventies.

34:15

dude, why couldn't you have done this with the hustle? Why? What what did they do or what was the why was the hill too hard to climb where you could scale like this, because this is huge. I don't think it was too hard to scale. I think I could have done it I would say that this business has been around since the seventies.

34:32

Right. So it's kicking ass now. It didn't always kick ass. If you're willing to be patient, you can do it. Second of all, if you're willing to put your ethics aside a little bit, it actually is quite easy to do. Helps.

34:32

34:44

So how would you how would you do this? You let's say you wanna

34:44

So how would you how would you do this? You let's say you wanna

34:47

beat these guys or beat these guys. What does, you know, you're Sam, you're probably one of the most well equipped people in the world How would you have gone about it? Well, what you have to do is you've gotta create multiple brands under one. It's really hard to have one brand and only a couple products make all this money. So you'd have to have for us, we would have done and we were going to do this, but then we got bought. And the reason I got bought was a whole different reasons, which is basically I wanted to

34:47

35:11

get a pay day, like, and I wanted to I mean, like, I was I was pretty clear about that before. Like, I wanted, I, like, it was cool. It was, it's awesome. I'm gonna stay here, but, like, it was nice to, like, get a lotto ticket.

35:11

35:23

But if I wanted to be patient

35:23

But if I wanted to be patient

35:25

and do it for fifty years, which I kinda do it, to be honest.

35:25

and do it for fifty years, which I kinda do it, to be honest.

35:30

I would have created trends, but for subset

35:30

I would have created trends, but for subset

35:33

subcategories,

35:33

subcategories,

35:34

and you make the first newsletter the one that people pay for only like forty nine or fifty bucks and we send you just a couple things a month. And then the second thing is you go to subcategories and you charge thousands of dollars. For example,

35:34

35:45

if there was a newsletter that,

35:45

if there was a newsletter that,

35:48

dissected media companies, I work in the media industry, and you told me it was four thousand and I also got access to a community. I ain't gonna complain about it. Right. I'm I mean

35:48

dissected media companies, I work in the media industry, and you told me it was four thousand and I also got access to a community. I ain't gonna complain about it. Right. I'm I mean

35:57

I'm gonna do it. If there's something for digital streaming and that you know that the five analysts are smart, Twitch is gonna buy that. It's not that, like, challenging. It's not that hard. Right.

35:57

I'm gonna do it. If there's something for digital streaming and that you know that the five analysts are smart, Twitch is gonna buy that. It's not that, like, challenging. It's not that hard. Right.

36:07

And so that's what I would do from multiple industries.

36:07

And so that's what I would do from multiple industries.

36:10

And the thing that a lot of newsletter writers do, which I've talked about this plenty of times, and I don't want to talk about too much, is they do one of two things One, they charge too little, and two, if they charge too little, they don't have a higher end back back product. You need a back, a front end and a back end. So you need your cheap thing that gets a lot of people, and then you need your paid thing that gets only a few people, but it charge makes a lot of money. So so you guys at trends is like, I don't know, three hundred something a year,

36:10

36:35

you could have been forty nine dollars and then five thousand dollars would have been a better mix of value if you are if you were optimizing for, how do we get this thing profitable as we can, lucrative as we can. Yeah. And had we not gotten bought, I would have done that. I would have, actually, we were about to change it. We were about to make that change. By the way, what happens to trends now? People will still pay for or it's free now?

36:35

you could have been forty nine dollars and then five thousand dollars would have been a better mix of value if you are if you were optimizing for, how do we get this thing profitable as we can, lucrative as we can. Yeah. And had we not gotten bought, I would have done that. I would have, actually, we were about to change it. We were about to make that change. And by the way, what happens to trends now? People will still pay for it or it's free now?

36:56

They pay for it. We're gonna we might lower the price before we are either gonna make that the back end or we're make up the front end, but we were gonna copy this model of a ninety nine dollar thing and then a two thousand dollar thing.

36:56

37:06

Yeah. Dude, when I see companies like this, it just makes me wanna do it. So badly,

37:06

Yeah. Dude, when I see companies like this, it just makes me wanna do it. So badly,

37:11

because it's like

37:11

because it's like

37:13

it just seems so doable. Now I know that in practice, when I and by the way, We get we get heat for this sometimes because we're like, dude, it's so easy. It's so simple.

37:13

it just seems so doable. Now I know that in practice, when I and by the way, We get we get heat for this sometimes because we're like, dude, it's so easy. It's so simple.

37:21

We're talking, like, relatively, like, building a successful business is hard. Okay? Like, it's not just gonna it's not saying We're not saying things are easy. Sometimes we actually do say that word easy, really what we mean is simple. So, like, being able to bench five hundred pounds, that is

37:21

37:38

simple.

37:38

simple.

37:39

Like, it's straightforward. Straight forward. You just you here's how you get strong in the bench press. You lift a lot and then you eat a ton.

37:39

Like, it's straightforward. Straight forward. You just you here's how you get strong in the bench press. You lift a lot and then you eat a ton.

37:46

Now that is quite hard to do for five years, but that's that was that's the steps you take. So it's like simple. And so what we're saying is that this is simple. Is not easy. Yeah. I think weight loss is actually a better example because five hundred pounds is a is a hard thing to bench. Weight loss is is literally simple where it's like, Hey, you need to eat these, you know, avoid carbs, void sugars. You need to eat a little bit less, less calories than you're at the burning. And, like, you should work out regularly

37:46

38:09

do kind of whatever. Just try to get an hour a day of, you know, break a sweat. If you actually just did those two things and be like, hey, give it, like, four to five months, six months,

38:09

do kind of whatever. Just try to get an hour a day of, you know, break a sweat. If you actually just did those two things and be like, hey, give it, like, four to five months, six months,

38:18

Boom. You're in great shape. Everybody knows that formula. It is actually simple

38:18

Boom. You're in great shape. Everybody knows that formula. It is actually simple

38:23

executing it and doing it, having the discipline and having the rigor to, like, actually stick to it hard, but it is way

38:23

executing it and doing it, having the discipline and having the rigor to, like, actually stick to it hard, but it is way

38:31

easier relatively than becoming a crossfit champion. Right? And so when we're talking about business, The scale is that. It's like, it's hard to create the next Facebook. That's really freaking hard.

38:31

easier relatively than becoming a crossfit champion. Right? And so when we're talking about business, the scale is that. It's like, it's hard to create the next Facebook. That's really freaking hard.

38:41

Is it hard to create a paid community? Well, I don't think most people who try it will do it, but it's relatively way easier than creating the next Facebook. So for people that are out there, they get all sensitive when we call something easy, it's not we're not trying to mislead you. Like, yeah, it's gonna take work. Most likely, it won't work. It'll take some time. But we're on a scale of one to SpaceX,

38:41

38:59

this is more like a one than it is a SpaceX. And, like, that's a that's a scale for for people to think about. I completely agree. And,

38:59

this is more like a one than it is a SpaceX. And, like, that's a that's a scale for for people to think about. I completely agree. And,

39:07

I think, like, now let's talk about what makes this hard. The first

39:07

I think, like, now let's talk about what makes this hard. The first

39:11

and is that you have to sell your soul a little bit. Now many people will not be comfortable with this stuff. Sean is pretty comfortable with it. I think I'm comfortable with it, but I think I'm a little bit less comfortable with it. You have to be a face. Sometimes. You have to be you have to say I'm an expert at X pay me money to for me to tell you my thoughts. Right. Second,

39:11

and is that you have to sell your soul a little bit. Now, many people will not be comfortable with this stuff. Sean is pretty comfortable with it. I think I'm comfortable with it, but I think I'm a little bit less comfortable with it. You have to be a face. Sometimes. You have to be you have to say I'm an expert at X pay me money to for me to tell you my thoughts. Right. Second,

39:32

Well, no. This is not that. So guys like James Altacher who we've had this podcast, he was ridiculed for doing this with Bitcoin. Everyone made fun of him. He made sixty million dollars doing it. But he still got mocked constantly and shockingly. Most people would actually prefer not to make the money and not get made fun of than they would to make the money and get made fun of.

39:32

39:50

Well, the way I think about it is most people truly will not they they are afraid that they're gonna get the not gonna get the money and get mocked. And so they're like, fuck it. I I I won't do If you really had a guarantee, I think people would happily trade reputation points for bank points. But Well, that yeah. And perhaps but that's some moot point because the fact is is that most people don't even wanna because the first one instead of, like, they may not get the money at all. That is also true, and that's what they're they're they're not gonna do You have to do that. Second, it's a treadmill.

39:50

40:18

You can't stop. This is a lifetime

40:18

You can't stop. This is a lifetime job. So if you were a content

40:21

job. So if you were a content creator, you I hire people to do it for me. You one hundred percent can do that, but you're you're gonna you can't you have to you actually have to do the work for a little while in the anyway. So you're gonna have to work. And by the way, quick question, hiring, because people ask me this, and I have no idea. I'm like, why don't you ask Sam? Let's say, you know, he's not intimidated why you're asking me they'll be like, dude, the hustle has had amazing talent. Like, they talk about Trunk, they talk about Steph Smith. They talk about some of the people you guys Well, you do me. I mean, mean, I consider

40:23

creator, you I hire people to do it for me. You one hundred percent can do that, but you're you're gonna you can't

40:30

you have to you actually have to do the work for a little while in the anyway. So you're gonna have to work. And by the way, quick question, hiring, because people ask me this, and I have no idea. I'm like, why don't you ask Sam? Let's say, you know, he's not intimidated why you're asking me they'll be like, dude, the hustle has had amazing talent. Like, they talk about Trunk, they talk about Steph Smith. They talk about some of the people you guys do.

40:51

Mean, I consider

40:52

you be part of our crew. You, me,

40:52

you be part of our crew. You, me,

40:55

trung, Steph, it's got Colby. We've got, yeah, we've got a bunch of people. So so the question is, the heck did you find these people? So can you give me the two ten seconds on each? Where'd you find Trung? Where'd you find Steph? Where'd you find Colby? Where'd you find, you know, all all these people?

40:55

41:08

Colby was, worked at a PR firm where he was doing some copywriting work,

41:08

Colby was, worked at a PR firm where he was doing some copywriting work,

41:13

and,

41:13

and,

41:14

Trung,

41:14

Trung,

41:15

Eamon. Did he just apply to you, or you, like, recognize, like, oh, this good. Mutual Connection, friend of a friend said, you should talk to this person.

41:15

Eamon. Did he just apply to you, or you, like, recognize, like, oh, this good. Mutual Connection, friend of a friend said, you should talk to this person.

41:22

Trong came from Eamon Troy, a mutual friend and investor of the hustle. Stepff, I found on Twitter because I read her blog.

41:22

Trong came from Eamon Troy, a mutual friend and investor of the hustle. Stepff, I found on Twitter because I read her blog.

41:29

Who else? That's it. I I just wanna know. And then when you found these people, are you what's your

41:29

Who else? That's it. I I just wanna know. And then when you found these people, are you what's your

41:34

Did you cycle through thirty people who kind of sort of saw us before you found the gyms? When we actually sold to HubSpot, they're like, you guys have a lot of churn. I'm like, yeah, but here's what we do. Like, this is actually quite normal in the editorial industry, but you hire a bunch of people and you've got a you you either fire or there's a mutual, like, alright, we tried it. It won't affect.

41:34

41:54

And that happens a lot.

41:54

And that happens a lot.

41:56

Yeah. And you also you have the tone. I would say that was also a key, right? Cause you were writing it originally.

41:56

Yeah. And you also you have the tone. I would say that was also a key, right? Cause you were writing it originally.

42:02

And so you Yeah. And you saw the trick to the right people. You saw the trends community. Like, I was the one actually doing all the work. Every day you were posting in that thing. Yeah. And that sets the culture and it attracts like minded people. I also think that, once you find the winners, then you go all in on them. So Trung is what I call he's he's a made man, Steph, a made woman. Whatever Steph wants to do something.

42:02

42:24

Cool.

42:24

Cool.

42:25

Sounds good. What do you need?

42:25

Sounds good. What do you need?

42:27

When other people come meet with an idea. Time to negotiate, baby. Time to time to double it. Trying to double that number. Whatever's number, Sam gave you time to double it. These guys are all doing great.

42:27

42:37

When whenever if a if an outside person or if a if a non main person comes with idea. It's, you know, let why don't you just show me a little MVP and let's just see what people think. If trunks says something, it's alright. Yes, sir. Right. Yeah. Like, you're you're a proven hitmaker. So and then the,

42:37

42:53

the last thing is when we interview them, I always ask about the bottom fourth of the resume, which is like the college classes and all the things that they take because I want them to, like, entertain me during the interview. In the same way that you are really good at storytelling, you have to have other people that are good storytelling.

42:53

43:07

Right. Right.

43:07

Right. Right.

43:08

Okay. I like it.

43:08

Okay. I like it.

43:10

Can we do one idea real quick before we we jump? So,

43:10

Can we do one idea real quick before we we jump? So,

43:15

this kinda kinda kinda kinda kinda feel like it's out of left field, but I would say something interesting here. So highlight it on the page. Oh, yeah. So I'm down here. Virtual team building.

43:15

this kinda kinda kinda kinda kinda feel like it's out of left field, but I would say something interesting here. So highlight it on the page. Oh, yeah. So I'm down here. Virtual team building.

43:26

43:27

for a long time, people have had this problem of. We have a team. We're working on stuff together, you know,

43:27

for a long time, people have had this problem of. We have a team. We're working on stuff together, you know,

43:32

as the boss or, you know, sometimes you gotta crack the whip, and it feels like it's task after task and deadline after deadline, and you wanna make sure that this team is really coming together and is, bonded. And you want people to have a good time here and you don't want them to leave and all the good all the good things. You care about your people, the experience they have working for you. And so in the old world, this was

43:32

43:50

different team building solutions. And so we would do off sites. I don't know what you did with the hustle crew, but, like, you know, some people go to a a shooting range. Some people go to an escape room. Some people do, like, you know,

43:50

44:01

painting and wine tasting and what

44:01

painting and wine tasting and what

44:04

You know what I liked most? Just like a fancy dinner. Right. Yeah.

44:04

You know what I liked most? Just like a fancy dinner. Right.

44:08

Yeah. Let's go out to dinner. Right? Let's go to a cool place. I, you know, it's on me, order what you want, type of thing. Yeah. I just like we we would do, like, fancy dinners.

44:09

Let's go out to dinner. Right? Let's go to a cool place. I, you know, it's on me, order what you want, type of thing. Yeah. I just like we we would do, like, fancy dinners.

44:15

Right. And,

44:15

Right. And,

44:16

and, and this is every team. Literally, I heard an NBA coach talking about this the other day. He goes, man, we got all these new players so hard with COVID because in the old days, you just go to the bar, you put your your card behind the tab, you know, and you you say, all the drinks are on me tonight. You know, go crazy, guys. He's like, and he's like, you didn't have to, like, have conversations. Like, It's needed to give guys a night out together, and good things will happen. And,

44:16

44:38

and so with the, you know, we have this remote work trend. Everybody's going remote.

44:38

and so with the, you know, we have this remote work trend. Everybody's going remote.

44:44

So how are those teams gonna do it? How are they gonna do team bonding? Because although you get to spend more time with your family and you get not less time in traffic commuting,

44:44

So how are those teams gonna do it? How are they gonna do team bonding? Because although you get to spend more time with your family and you get not less time in traffic commuting,

44:53

You do lose the water cooler. You lose the team bonding.

44:53

You do lose the water cooler. You lose the team bonding.

44:56

So how are people gonna do this? So I've seen some cool companies popping up that are doing this, and I think they're doing quite well. So wanna point out a couple and then get your take on if you think these are good ideas, bad ideas, or how you would do it. So The first one of team team ro team rotary. Is that right? Yeah. Team rotary. Camaraderie, but for a team. And so this is actually backed by some pretty legit players, like, some pretty, pretty famous people in Silicon Valley, which I'm surprised at because it kind of just looks like a goofy, like, They seem like small bootstrapped ideas, but actually they have some big backing because I think people recognize the spaces.

44:56

45:27

Big companies pay tens of thousands of dollars

45:27

Big companies pay tens of thousands of dollars

45:30

per division a year

45:30

per division a year

45:32

to have team bonding. And so then, you know, in a big company, you have, you know, easily

45:32

to have team bonding. And so then, you know, in a big company, you have, you know, easily

45:38

high six figures, low seven figures worth of spend on, on this type of thing. That's my guess.

45:38

high six figures, low seven figures worth of spend on, on this type of thing. That's my guess.

45:43

I'm I'm not in the finance team, so maybe I'm off, but I think that's about right. So team robbery's one. First of all, team robbery

45:43

I'm I'm not in the finance team, so maybe I'm off, but I think that's about right. So team robbery's one. First of all, team robbery

45:50

looks interesting. Horrible name. What an awful name.

45:50

looks interesting. Horrible name. What an awful name.

45:55

They've got a pretty bad ass,

45:55

They've got a pretty bad ass,

45:57

a pretty bad ass set of advisors, guys like Heathra Boy who seems to hate everything, as you've said,

45:57

a pretty bad ass set of advisors, guys like Heathra Boy who seems to hate everything, as you've said,

46:03

is on their adviser or their board.

46:03

is on their adviser or their board.

46:06

Pretty interesting.

46:06

Pretty interesting.

46:07

Yeah. Exactly. So he's on this, and it says trusted by three three hundred plus global teams.

46:07

Yeah. Exactly. So he's on this, and it says trusted by three three hundred plus global teams.

46:12

You know who's

46:12

You know who's

46:14

summer

46:14

summer Sanders?

46:15

Sanders?

46:16

Who's that? Do you don't remember summer Sanders?

46:16

Who's that? Do you don't remember summer Sanders?

46:19

She was from, and, she was, like, a swimmer in the nineties,

46:19

She was from, and, she was, like, a swimmer in the nineties,

46:23

and then was the hosts of the nickelodeon TV shows.

46:23

and then was the hosts of the nickelodeon TV shows.

46:26

No way. That's that's hilarious. Summer Sanders works at product development at Team Rotdery.

46:26

No way. That's that's hilarious. Summer Sanders works at product development at Team Rotdery.

46:33

So, like, you know, you could do things. So if I click their experiences. Right? I click the bond and engage category.

46:33

So, like, you know, you could do things. So if I click their experiences. Right? I click the bond and engage category.

46:38

So it's like a coffee and tea tasting, a wine tasting, a, guacamole tasting,

46:38

So it's like a coffee and tea tasting, a wine tasting, a, guacamole tasting,

46:44

a painting class or whatever. It could be if you do kickoff, kickoff, team kickoffs,

46:44

a painting class or whatever. It could be if you do kickoff,

46:48

kickoff, team kickoffs,

46:50

Okay. We got our guacamole tasting again, but we also have the high heeled shoe project, a lesson for inclusion.

46:50

Okay. We got our guacamole tasting again, but we also have the high heeled shoe project, a lesson for inclusion.

46:56

You know, so there's these, like,

46:56

You know, so there's these, like,

46:58

kind of team experiences lessons in a box or bonding in a box experiences.

46:58

kind of team experiences lessons in a box or bonding in a box experiences.

47:03

So that's one. Then our friend from the pod, Greg Eisenberg,

47:03

So that's one. Then our friend from the pod, Greg Eisenberg,

47:07

created one called nice break dot fun.

47:07

created one called nice break dot fun.

47:12

Dude, this guy loves like cute names. Yeah.

47:12

Dude, this guy loves like cute names. Yeah.

47:15

Give me give me a name check. How do you feel about nice break dot fun? It's okay. It's good. He love, like, he he la Greg is, like, the coolest guy in my comp he, like, public school or, like, school works or, like, school bus, like

47:15

47:28

Well, his studio is called late checkout. Late checkout. Like, you know,

47:28

Well, his studio is called late checkout. Late checkout. Like, you know,

47:33

I remember being like, why did you open this agency? Late checkout? It seems like a weird thing to do. Like, you're an entrepreneur. Why are you doing this, like, kind of like product design, creative agency thing?

47:33

47:42

And, and then every week, he's like, yeah, we were, like, I'll I'll put I'll post a cool product that I think is awesome. He's like, oh, yeah, we worked with them. We designed the prototype. I'm like, he's doing it for all of them. I'm like, oh, actually, this is fucking awesome. You're like, on the ground floor of all these things, you can invest in them. You're meeting them. You're like seeing all these spaces and getting paid to do it. Like, Okay. That's pretty cool. I mean, he's using that to fund his

47:42

48:02

own in his own projects. So they're they're own internal projects, which I don't know. That's that's actually a pretty cool way of doing it. But they have things like a comedian will do like an improv class with you guys over Zoom or a virtual escape room or a

48:02

48:15

you know, a wardrobe makeover or stuff like that. Right? So I think this is kinda cool, and there's other products like this that are, like, just a straight up zoom escape room. It's like, eight people enter one hour goes on the clock, and the whole thing happens in Zoom. So I think there's this is gonna be, I think, a pretty big space that starts out looking like a toy, but ends up being a pretty pretty solid business. What do you think? Yeah. I first of all, late checkout dot com or sorry.

48:15

you know, a wardrobe makeover or stuff like that. Right? So I think this is kinda cool. And there's other products like this that are, like, just a straight up zoom escape room. It's like, eight people enter one hour goes on the clock, and the whole thing happens in Zoom. So I think there's this is gonna be, I think, a pretty big space that starts out looking like a toy, but ends up being a pretty pretty solid business. What do you think? Yeah. I first of all, late checkout dot com or sorry.

48:39

With late checkout dot com is Greg. It's

48:39

With late checkout dot com is Greg. It's

48:43

mostly Sean's buddy.

48:43

mostly Sean's buddy.

48:45

He's got a community community

48:45

He's got a community community

48:47

design firm. Go to that website and look at what he's doing. It's really good. That guy is really good.

48:47

design firm. Go to that website and look at what he's doing. It's really good. That guy is really good.

48:54

Nice break fun. Nice break that fun. I think it's cool. They're charging a lot of money, which I think is badass.

48:54

Nice break fun. Nice break that fun. I think it's cool. They're charging a lot of money, which I think is badass.

48:59

So they charge two thousand dollars a month

48:59

So they charge two thousand dollars a month

49:02

plus

49:02

plus okay. So a grant a month gets you two nice breaks per month

49:05

okay. So a grant a month gets you two nice breaks per month for and that's for companies that are twenty five to fifty.

49:09

for and that's for companies that are twenty five to fifty.

49:13

If you're okay. I understand how this works.

49:13

If you're okay. I understand how this works.

49:16

Yeah. This could right this could be a hit. I think this is great. Think this could totally be a hit. Can it be a huge VC thing? I don't know. But this could make tens of millions of dollars in subscription, you know. Exactly. And the other thing is,

49:16

49:29

One way to think about problems like these or find opportunities like these is you go,

49:29

One way to think about problems like these or find opportunities like these is you go,

49:35

in the c suite. So you say, okay, there's a CEO.

49:35

in the c suite. So you say, okay, there's a CEO.

49:38

There's a CMO, there's a CTO, CFO, CIO, whatever. Right? You go through all of them, and we were laughing because you were like, what the hell is a CHRO? So this is what a CHRO thinks about. They're the chief people officer essentially of a of a company.

49:38

49:51

I I kinda use this interchangeably. Maybe there's some nuance difference. Sorry to, you know, the the three CHROs that listen to this podcast.

49:51

I I kinda use this interchangeably. Maybe there's some nuance difference. Sorry to, you know, the the three CHROs that listen to this podcast.

49:59

I didn't mean to to, what is the CHR chief

49:59

I didn't mean to to, what is the CHR chief

50:03

human resources, I think, officer. Right. So

50:03

human resources, I think, officer. Right. So

50:06

so they think about the stuff. Right? They're like, okay. The whole workforce has just gone remote. We really care about what's called employee engagement, which just means how happy are people to work here? Are they gonna leave? Are they gonna is this a toxic work environment or not? And so then they have this

50:06

50:19

Do so one thing you could do is you go talk to these people, and you just sort of say, what sucks?

50:19

Do so one thing you could do is you go talk to these people, and you just sort of say, what sucks?

50:25

What's what's keeping you up at night? What are you stressing about? You start to ask these questions, and at first, they won't give you a whole bunch. But then you say, alright. Can you show me your budget for the year?

50:25

50:34

Oh, wow. You spent a lot of money on your people development? What does people development means? And it's like, oh, that's corporate training and blah blah blah.

50:34

Oh, wow. You spent a lot of money on your people development? What does people development means? And it's like, oh, that's corporate training and blah blah blah.

50:42

Oh, interesting. Who do you guys use for that? You go look up those companies. That is, like, some people sometimes people ask, like, how do you guys think of these things? That's how we learn these things. It's like, we just start to sniff in these types of ways, and you start to learn about all these spaces that are outside of just your day to day world view. So if you're out there as an entrepreneur trying to figure out Where can I build a company where there's I don't wanna just guess on demand?

50:42

51:04

This is one way. You go talk to somebody who's in charge, you figure out what their what's stressing them out, what problems they need solved, what language they use when they describe it, that's your landing page, that's your ad. And then you look at their budget and you see, Do the does the money map to the problem? And if the money maps to the problem, you start to see, oh, okay. And you ask them, hey, which budget line item is growing year over year, which which line item was smaller last year and was bigger this year because that's the space where they're still looking for new solutions. And you could do that for an individual as I think what you can do is you can go sign up for mint or whatever and just look at the categories of your money and just look at the trailing twelve months and be like, wait, what am I consistently spending money on? And do that with five or ten friends, and that's actually a great way to find an idea. And doing it with businesses is far more profitable. So you just go and you look at they're cool. You look at quickbooks and you say, alright. What's going on here? Where's all the money going to? Right. It's an awesome way. That's actually kind of a cool business in itself, which is like,

51:04

51:24

year over year, which which line item was smaller last year and was bigger this year because that's the space where they're still looking for new solutions. And you could do that for an individual as I think what you can do is you can go sign up for mint or whatever and just look at the categories of your money and just look at the trailing twelve months and be like, wait, what am I consistently spending money on? And do that with five or ten friends, and that's actually a great way to find an idea. And doing it with businesses is far more profitable. So you just go and you look at they're cool. You look at quickbooks and you say, alright. What's going on here? Where's all the money going to? Right. It's an awesome way. That's actually kind of a cool business in itself, which is like,

51:57

How do I

51:57

How do I see a budget?

51:59

how do I what? Like, wallet share. Like, how do I just see how wallet share? These people are moms in America. Where is their wallet going Right? Like, what what are they spending their their time and money on? I think, you know, big brands, like, I don't know, Procter and Gamble, they they think about this a lot. They interview a ton of moms. They say, oh, okay. You know, the mom controls this much at the household budget, you know, at seventy percent or whatever. And then within that, every month, she's spending percent on groceries, y percent on household cleaners, this percent on this, this percent on this, and that's how they decide. Okay. We need to invest our product development

51:59

How do I what? Like, wallet share. Like, how do I just see how wallet share? These people are moms in America. Where is their wallet going? Right? Like, what what are they spending their their time and money on? I think, you know, big brands, like, I don't know, Procter and Gamble, they they think about this a lot. They interview a ton of moms. They say, oh, okay. You know, the mom controls this much at the household budget, you know, at seventy percent or whatever. And then within that, every month, she's spending percent on groceries, y percent on household cleaners, this percent on this, this percent on this, and that's how they decide. Okay. We need to invest our product development

52:32

according to where the budget is, because that's how that's how we make our money back. That's such an interesting way to do things. Like, it guess you could do it. How many public company? There's two thousand public companies in America. You could easily Or I think there's like four thousand something like that. Four thousand.

52:32

according to where the budget is, because that's how that's how we make our money back. That's such an interesting way to do things. Like,

52:39

guess you could do it. How many public company? There's two thousand public companies in America. You could easily Or I think there's like four thousand something like that. Four thousand. However many Michael actually said last episode four thousand, let's say, you could easily do that with with all their

52:46

However many Michael actually said last episode four thousand, let's say, you could easily do that with with all their

52:52

categories.

52:52

categories.

52:53

Right. You can't see line items, but you could see, like, G and A or but you might be that's kind of an interesting study.

52:53

Right. You can't see line items, but you could see, like, G and A or but you might be that's kind of an interesting study.

53:00

Right. And, and you could do this with just media companies. How are her media com what what is the expenses

53:00

Right. And, and you could do this with just media companies. How are her media com what what is the expenses

53:06

look like of a media company, where are they allocating? You know, where where are they where do they spend all their money and where which which ones are changing, over time? Where is things shifting? And so I think that's kind of like an interesting signal that you can use at the company level,

53:06

53:20

one,

53:20

one,

53:20

division at a company,

53:21

division at a company,

53:22

individual person, whatever, and I think you get a lot of insights from that.

53:22

individual person, whatever, and I think you get a lot of insights from that.

53:26

I think that's a great idea. I think what we just said of, like, did you make up that name wallet chair? Is that a thing?

53:26

I think that's a great idea. I think what we just said of, like, did you make up that name wallet chair? Is that a thing?

53:33

I think that's a term in general.

53:33

I think that's a term in general.

53:36

Like, it's a it's a general term, but but, I I've also seen this, by the way, in terms of, for in the social networking space in terms of time. So WeChat, I think, or,

53:36

Like, it's a it's a general term, but but, I I've also seen this, by the way, in terms of, for in the social networking space in terms of time. So WeChat, I think, or,

53:47

one of the Chinese companies, they had this presentation I saw And, you know, I'm sitting there trying to go through a Chinese presentation. So, like, you know, maybe somebody's lost their translation, but I got I got the general idea, which was

53:47

53:57

they wanna app for every minute of your day.

53:57

they wanna app for every minute of your day.

54:00

There because China has all these, like, super apps. Like, we chat you can pay your house bills in it, and it's like, WhatsApp.

54:00

There because China has all these, like, super apps. Like, we chat you can pay your house bills in it, and it's like, WhatsApp.

54:07

And you can also, like, subscribe to Netflix through it. You know, their version of Netflix, but it's also like, you know, where you post photos and stuff like that. So what they said was, like, they took person's day. So they're like, okay, fifteen year old kid wakes up in the morning at this time. First ten minutes of the day. What what products are they using? What apps are they using? And they start to break it down minute by minute, basically, like, what

54:07

54:27

where are their gaps? So today, we're taking up four hours of this person's time. If they're awake for twelve hours, how do we spend how do we get twelve hours of their or sixteen hours? How do we get sixteen hours of mind share from this person? Well, they watch movies at night. We need an app for movies. Well, during the day, they need, they messaged a friend. We need that. They need news. They will get the news. Alright. Cool. We're gonna do news, and that's how they they think about because how do they expand? If you're an ad based business, you need attention. So how do I get more attention? Well, I need more hours of the day of yours. How do I get more hours of the day? Well, I gotta figure out how you spend it today, and I gotta insert myself there.

54:27

55:00

I have a few friends that have worked on the on that at Facebook where they were like, alright. We have found out that if you put stickers on the photos, people spend like five seconds more. And they have, like, fifty people just working on stickers, and I'm just, like, kill yourself. Like, these people hated their job. Dude, I've one of my best friends is job at Facebook was literally.

55:00

I have a few friends that have worked on the on that at Facebook where they were like, alright. We have found out that if you put stickers on the photos, people spend like five seconds more.

55:09

And they have, like, fifty people just working on stickers, and I'm just, like, kill yourself. Like, these people hated their job. Dude, I've one of my best friends is job at Facebook was literally

55:19

he was in the, you know, it was called, like, security and safety and privacy of community or stuff like that department. Literally, he's like, I just try to make sure a dick doesn't show up on your Facebook feed. He's like, so, he's like, you wouldn't believe how many dicks are posted on Facebook every day. He's like, have you ever seen a dick? And I was like, no. Never. Not one. He's like, that's right.

55:20

He was in the, you know, it was called, like, security and safety and privacy of community or stuff like that department. Literally, he's like, I just try to make sure a dick doesn't show up on your Facebook feed. He's like, so, he's like, you wouldn't believe how many dicks are posted on Facebook every day. He's like, have you ever seen a dick? And I was like, no. Never. Not one. He's like, that's right.

55:38

At least there's that's cool. You're, like, trying to protect people whenever. That's cool. But, like, I'm

55:38

At least there's that's cool. You're, like, trying to protect people whenever. That's cool. But, like, I'm

55:41

writing

55:41

writing

55:45

like, he's like, I'm reviewing folders of images that are just being like, dick, not a dick, dick, not a dick, right? And then, like, also same thing on the algorithm side. Like, we we worked writing programs to train the computer to recognize this first that. And he's like, it's a cat mask game. Always harder than you think. They're always one step ahead.

55:45

56:02

Like, echo Dimes or Sean Sean's Dee?

56:02

Like, echo Dimes or Sean Sean's Dee?

56:08

No. That's just about a dollar in pennies.

56:08

No. That's just about a dollar in pennies.

56:13

They,

56:13

They,

56:14

but, yeah, I mean, at least that job is alright. But, like,

56:14

but, yeah, I mean, at least that job is alright. But,

56:17

like, can't imagine working at a Facebook or an Instagram and just all I'm trying to do is suck more of people's time.

56:17

can't imagine working at a Facebook or an Instagram and just all I'm trying to do is suck more of people's time.

56:23

Yeah. It is sad when you think about it. Like, the the best brains of our generation are basically sitting inside the giant slot machine

56:23

Yeah. It is sad when you think about it. Like, the the best brains of our generation are basically sitting inside the giant slot machine

56:31

and being like, okay. How do we how do we get the rat to come back again? You know, like, how do we get her to come back more and more and more and spend more time and more time. Right? Like, that's the reality. And it's like, hey, I get paid five hundred thousand dollars a year to do this, and I get free lunch and they do my laundry and I get foot massages on Fridays. And, like, people think I'm joking. That's those are all true things that happen.

56:31

56:51

Before we wrap up, did you see that you were you so you and I are one for one of being turned into memes? So you posted

56:51

Before we wrap up, did you see that you were you so you and I are one for one of being turned into memes? So you posted

56:58

something, like, I'm looking for a a meme creator,

57:02

five hundred dollars a month, no vacation,

57:04

and,

57:05

you you posted all this other funny stuff. And people like, mock you. Liquidity,

57:10

my a bunch of people mocked you. It's pretty great. I think, hopefully, they realize that, like, we do this shit on purpose.

57:16

Yeah. Or, like, it's not even okay. Like, okay. I'd love to say,

57:21

I'm in on the joke. I knew this. Like, yeah, I knew it was silly, but, like, I didn't think it would turn into a little bit. We we know, like, we're self aware enough to know this is, like,

57:30

like, mockable.

57:32

Wrote no vacation. It's not even a real job, like,

57:35

of course, just, like, I'm, of course, this is a fake job posting. I'm not fake. It's like, I'm basically, like, just being like, hey, did someone one off side hustle for me by making a bunch of memes? You can make five hundred bucks a month. Just make me a few memes every week. That's really what I was trying to say. But if I say that, it's only gonna get, like, a hundred likes. But if I say it the way I said it over the top, boom, I got thousands of likes. And if the thing spread and a bunch of people got angry, literally, like, Taylor Lawrence was like, why does this person not get sick leave?

58:02

I was like, because it's not a joke.

58:06

And so, yeah, we're kinda doing this on purpose, but also I am just kind of a character and, like, I don't I've been saying things, you know, as I think them. And then I move on with my life. And, like,

58:16

I win either way. Like,

58:18

I win if if you get mad, I win.

58:21

If you, you know, like, if you take it seriously, and, you apply. I win. Like, it's I win. Oh, I win no matter what. As long as I don't get completely

58:30

canceled, I win.

58:32

Which might happen one day soon, but we'll have we'll have fun until then.

58:38

And I will explain someday why I am high bring, a personal meme god to, to, to do some memes for me. I will explain that.

58:47

There's nothing Well, there's something There's actually a cool story. There's actually a cool story around it, but, it's not quite ready yet. The story will be cooler if I put the whole thing together. And then explain it when it's, when it's ready. So that that'll come in, I don't know, a couple months.

59:01

And I guess you'll have to share some of the best ones you got.

59:04

Yes, sir.

59:06

Alright. That's it.

59:13

I feel like I could root the world. I know I could be what I want to.

59:18

I put my all in it like the days off on a road. Let's travel never looking