00:00

That there could be an hour that comes in your life that is worth more than the cumulative sum of everything else you've spent all of the time, all of the effort, all of the energy, that you've spent doing everything else. Yeah.

That there could be an hour that comes in your life that is worth more than the cumulative sum of everything else you've spent all of the time, all of the effort, all of the energy, that you've spent doing everything else. Yeah.

00:13

I feel like I could rule the world, I know I could be what I want to.

I feel like I could rule the world, I know I could be what I want to.

00:18

I put my all in it like the days off on a road less traveled, never looking back.

I put my all in it like the days off on a road less traveled, never looking back.

00:24

This was like a hit podcast. Like, we're growing. We're doing good. And yet, Sean, your microphone is the most, like, hood rat thing I've seen. What is that? Is it, like, balanced in there?

This was like a hit podcast. Like, we're growing. We're doing good. And yet, Sean, your microphone is the most, like, hood rat thing I've seen. What is that? Is it, like, balanced in there?

00:35

Yeah. So there's, like, you know, there's some way that this is supposed to sit, and then there's the way it actually sits. And, you know, don't mess with success. It's our good luck charm.

Yeah. So there's, like, you know, there's some way that this is supposed to sit, and then there's the way it actually sits. And, you know, don't mess with success. It's our good luck charm.

00:44

So,

So,

00:45

Jack, we're recording now. I think you,

Jack, we're recording now. I think you,

00:48

someone

someone

00:48

I don't know how much you looked into it, but someone sent your team a little date on or a little description on what we do. And it looks like you sent an agenda. This looks awesome. So I have a feeling you know what's up a little bit. Is that right?

I don't know how much you looked into it, but someone sent your team a little date on or a little description on what we do. And it looks like you sent an agenda. This looks awesome. So I have a feeling you know what's up a little bit. Is that right?

01:02

Yeah. I listened to a few of your guys' podcasts. I think it's great, great content. Sean and I kind of go way back. Yeah. We used to know each other back in San Francisco in the early days when Tech was getting going there and When tech was in San Francisco.

Yeah. I listened to a few of your guys' podcasts. I think it's great, great content. Sean and I kind of go way back. Yeah. We used to know each other back in San Francisco in the early days when Tech was getting going there and When tech was in San Francisco.

01:15

Yeah. When tech was in San Francisco, and excited to be on. Thanks for having me. How did you, how'd you guys know each other? I was gonna ask you this. I I didn't know how much you remember. I remember pretty vividly.

Yeah. When tech was in San Francisco, and excited to be on. Thanks for having me. How did you, how'd you guys know each other? I was gonna ask you this. I I didn't know how much you remember. I remember pretty vividly.

01:27

I was at this time, I was running monkey in for as an idea lab or a sort of startup studio. Mhmm. And,

I was at this time, I was running monkey in for as an idea lab or a sort of startup studio. Mhmm. And,

01:33

I don't know how we got connected, but Jack came by the office. And I remember sitting in this conference room,

I don't know how we got connected, but Jack came by the office. And I remember sitting in this conference room,

01:38

And he was thinking about launching his own, you know, it's sort of like personal incubator, idea factory, whatever you wanna call these things. What do you call it, Jack, by the way? You call it start up studio. We'll go with start up studio, just given that the industry seems to have gone with that. And I remember before the meeting, I, like, kinda googled. I was like, okay. Who's this guy? And then I saw, oh, wow. This guy's, like, done all stuff. He had he built Milo. He sold it to eBay,

And he was thinking about launching his own, you know, it's sort of like personal incubator, idea factory, whatever you wanna call these things. What do you call it, Jack, by the way? You call it start up studio. We'll go with start up studio, just given that the industry seems to have gone with that. And I remember before the meeting, I, like, kinda googled. I was like, okay. Who's this guy? And then I saw, oh, wow. This guy's, like, done all stuff. He had he built Milo. He sold it to eBay,

02:00

and this was, like, you know, not his first rodeo.

and this was, like, you know, not his first rodeo.

02:02

And, and in the meeting, I just remember you had, like, really good questions. You had, like, a lot of people like this idea of a startup studio. It sounds really fun. You get to sit around all day, just think of ideas and build them. And, like, if something hits, you know, hooray,

And, and in the meeting, I just remember you had, like, really good questions. You had, like, a lot of people like this idea of a startup studio. It sounds really fun. You get to sit around all day, just think of ideas and build them. And, like, if something hits, you know, hooray,

02:15

And, but you had actually, like, done a lot of thought, put a lot of thought into it. And so you asked a bunch of questions. And I remember thinking,

And, but you had actually, like, done a lot of thought, put a lot of thought into it. And so you asked a bunch of questions. And I remember thinking,

02:22

Hey. I've been doing this for a few years. I could share a bunch of insights. I remember everything that I had told you, I was like, hey, here's a common trap. Avoid it. Go this way. You were like, yeah, that's why we're doing way. You had already you were sort of two two steps ahead. I remember. And I was I remember walking away being like, okay. I think this is one of the few starter studios that might actually work. And I think it has done so. I think it's one of the few starter studios that has actually worked. You guys had hims come out of it, which is like a breakout success public

Hey. I've been doing this for a few years. I could share a bunch of insights. I remember everything that I had told you, I was like, hey, here's a common trap. Avoid it. Go this way. You were like, yeah, that's why we're doing way. You had already you were sort of two two steps ahead. I remember. And I was I remember walking away being like, okay. I think this is one of the few starter studios that might actually work. And I think it has done so. I think it's one of the few starter studios that has actually worked. You guys had hims come out of it, which is like a breakout success public

02:47

company.

company.

02:48

And, and what what are the some of the other ones that have come out of atomic that are big? I know there's the

And, and what what are the some of the other ones that have come out of atomic that are big? I know there's the

02:53

there's some that have sort of spiked and I'm not sure where they're at now. They didn't kinda go Yeah. Full, like, like, handset.

there's some that have sort of spiked and I'm not sure where they're at now. They didn't kinda go Yeah. Full, like, like, handset.

03:00

We've, we've created a ton of different companies.

We've, we've created a ton of different companies.

03:03

Bungalow has been doing incredibly well. We just announced a huge raise for that company.

Bungalow has been doing incredibly well. We just announced a huge raise for that company.

03:07

Homebound, which is kind of revolutionizing

Homebound, which is kind of revolutionizing

03:09

construction and how that's done with the marketplace dynamic replicant, which is using AI to transform call centers,

construction and how that's done with the marketplace dynamic replicant, which is using AI to transform call centers,

03:16

gradient, which is kind of, cloud software for screens for b to b applications. So we kind of touch all sorts of industries. We have now actually a few dozen companies that we started.

gradient, which is kind of, cloud software for screens for b to b applications. So we kind of touch all sorts of industries. We have now actually a few dozen companies that we started.

03:28

Right. So we operate across everything, and a lot of our companies are doing really well. We're We actually try to keep a lot of our companies stealth because people have started to try to copy them. And by the time they announce them, they've usually raised pretty significant funding. So a lot of them are are under wraps, but we tend to do a lot in health care and telemedicine. We do a lot in prop tech. We do a lot in fintech.

Right. So we operate across everything, and a lot of our companies are doing really well. We're We actually try to keep a lot of our companies stealth because people have started to try to copy them. And by the time they announce them, they've usually raised pretty significant funding. So a lot of them are are under wraps, but we tend to do a lot in health care and telemedicine. We do a lot in prop tech. We do a lot in fintech.

03:50

Education,

Education,

03:51

AI, and then marketplaces.

AI, and then marketplaces.

03:53

And what is the, like, idea process? Because you're right. You do stay in stealth

And what is the, like, idea process? Because you're right. You do stay in stealth

03:57

for a while. I think. I feel it feels like when you come out to market, you've already like, the company's already got a bunch of traction. You announced a big raise at that point. But what that means is that people are willing to copy you.

for a while. I think. I feel it feels like when you come out to market, you've already like, the company's already got a bunch of traction. You announced a big raise at that point. But what that means is that people are willing to copy you.

04:08

Like, if Jack's doing it as an idea, it's probably a good market and a good idea. Let's just that that if we just use that and we copy that, we're already skipping a bunch of potential points of failure. And,

Like, if Jack's doing it as an idea, it's probably a good market and a good idea. Let's just that that if we just use that and we copy that, we're already skipping a bunch of potential points of failure. And,

04:20

you know, I think everybody thinks they're a good idea person. You actually seem to a good idea person. So where does that what what's the process? What's the process for ideas?

you know, I think everybody thinks they're a good idea person. You actually seem to a good idea person. So where does that what what's the process? What's the process for ideas?

04:28

You know, how are you coming up with so, like, a high number of good of good quality ideas that turn into this. I think you have you have six hundred. You have a list of six hundred in an Evernote doc. It's just an Evernote doc. Right? Yeah. Six hundred.

You know, how are you coming up with so, like, a high number of good of good quality ideas that turn into this. I think you have you have six hundred. You have a list of six hundred in an Evernote doc. It's just an Evernote doc. Right? Yeah. Six hundred.

04:40

Yeah. So you have a lot. A lot of ideas. Yeah.

Yeah. So you have a lot. A lot of ideas. Yeah.

04:44

Yeah. So,

Yeah. So,

04:46

okay, multi part question.

okay, multi part question.

04:50

So I think the first part of this is where do kind of good ideas come from and I have a view on this, which is a little contrarian. And actually, I think where startup studios and incubators can fall apart.

So I think the first part of this is where do kind of good ideas come from and I have a view on this, which is a little contrarian. And actually, I think where startup studios and incubators can fall apart.

05:03

Which is a lot of times if you're incubating companies, a temptation is to brainstorm

Which is a lot of times if you're incubating companies, a temptation is to brainstorm

05:08

on ideas. So think about things, get into a room, whiteboard, come up with solutions, and you're kind of coming up with these contrived solutions

on ideas. So think about things, get into a room, whiteboard, come up with solutions, and you're kind of coming up with these contrived solutions

05:16

to problems that may or may not exist. And that's kind of a problem. You know,

to problems that may or may not exist. And that's kind of a problem. You know,

05:21

versus what we do at atomic is we don't have brainstorming sessions. So we've been in business for over a decade. We've never had a brainstorming session on ideas, which is kind of crazy. Right? So what we do is we observe problems in the world that could be problems that we have personally problems on our team, problems in our portfolio

versus what we do at atomic is we don't have brainstorming sessions. So we've been in business for over a decade. We've never had a brainstorming session on ideas, which is kind of crazy. Right? So what we do is we observe problems in the world that could be problems that we have personally problems on our team, problems in our portfolio

05:39

that our companies have that create enterprise companies.

that our companies have that create enterprise companies.

05:42

And in that case, we observe the problems. We see a pattern actually build the product to solve it. We deploy it across our portfolio. We have built in customers.

And in that case, we observe the problems. We see a pattern actually build the product to solve it. We deploy it across our portfolio. We have built in customers.

05:51

We we dogfood it. We make sure that it works within portfolio. And then once we know it works, then we release it to the world, but it's really a problem first kind of mentality.

We we dogfood it. We make sure that it works within portfolio. And then once we know it works, then we release it to the world, but it's really a problem first kind of mentality.

06:01

And then solving the problem that I think makes us stand out and a little bit different from other people that have attempted this. And

And then solving the problem that I think makes us stand out and a little bit different from other people that have attempted this. And

06:10

I, in terms of the six hundred ideas and where they've come from,

I, in terms of the six hundred ideas and where they've come from,

06:14

it turns out our view of the world is, like, it's actually fundamentally very broken.

it turns out our view of the world is, like, it's actually fundamentally very broken.

06:19

There's just a lot of stuff in the world that could be improved. And that doesn't mean that everything's, like, broken, broken. Right? Like, it just means that there is there is an opportunity in many, many facets of light and many parts of the economy

There's just a lot of stuff in the world that could be improved. And that doesn't mean that everything's, like, broken, broken. Right? Like, it just means that there is there is an opportunity in many, many facets of light and many parts of the economy

06:35

to up level things.

to up level things.

06:37

And this could be in just like everyday parts of life. This could be in going to the doctor's office. This could be in commuting to work. This could be an, you know, interacting with a company or running a sales team or, you know, something like that.

And this could be in just like everyday parts of life. This could be in going to the doctor's office. This could be in commuting to work. This could be an, you know, interacting with a company or running a sales team or, you know, something like that.

06:50

You just observe all these things and think, wow.

You just observe all these things and think, wow.

06:53

That doesn't seem, you know, that seems a little bit broken. There there's probably a better way. And then I just got in the habit of writing those down.

That doesn't seem, you know, that seems a little bit broken. There there's probably a better way. And then I just got in the habit of writing those down.

07:01

And now that list has grown to over six hundred, and that's a seed that we use to start companies out of at atomic.

And now that list has grown to over six hundred, and that's a seed that we use to start companies out of at atomic.

07:08

And I have

And I have

07:09

a whole bunch of questions that, like I I, I was telling you, I I watched a lot of your interviews. So I, I understand a little bit about your process, and I wanna ask you about that. But before you did this, so you're thirty are you thirty four now? I'm thirty five now. You're thirty five. So before you were doing atomic, your first big win was Milo. You sold that for, like, seventy five million at twenty four. Right? Yep. Stay there at eBay for two years. Sam, do you know who his dad is? I do. Comscore.

a whole bunch of questions that, like I I, I was telling you, I I watched a lot of your interviews. So I, I understand a little bit about your process, and I wanna ask you about that. But before you did this, so you're thirty are you thirty four now? I'm thirty five now. You're thirty five. So before you were doing atomic, your first big win was Milo. You sold that for, like, seventy five million at twenty four. Right? Yep. Stay there at eBay for two years. Sam, do you know who his dad is? I do. Comscore.

07:37

Yeah. So so I didn't know that till I was doing research because we had met. I just thought, oh, it's kind of like a whiz kid. And I love times where. Behind every whiz kid is some unique childhood, I think, where you get exposed to something. So so, Jack, so your dad started Comscore. Is that right? Was CEO?

Yeah. So so I didn't know that till I was doing research because we had met. I just thought, oh, it's kind of like a whiz kid. And I love times where. Behind every whiz kid is some unique childhood, I think, where you get exposed to something. So so, Jack, so your dad started Comscore. Is that right? Was CEO?

07:51

I don't know if he's still CEO. And you were working there, like, at age twelve or something crazy. Is that right?

I don't know if he's still CEO. And you were working there, like, at age twelve or something crazy. Is that right?

07:57

Thanks. Yeah.

Thanks. Yeah.

07:59

Yeah, I had a an interesting childhood where I got exposed to entrepreneurship at a young age. My dad was an immigrant. He came to the US literally without a dollar to his name. From where?

Yeah, I had a an interesting childhood where I got exposed to entrepreneurship at a young age. My dad was an immigrant. He came to the US literally without a dollar to his name. From where?

08:11

He was born in Lebanon, and then he actually

He was born in Lebanon, and then he actually

08:15

went to college in France, studying science and engineering and math. He came to the US Coast PhD in math at MIT,

went to college in France, studying science and engineering and math. He came to the US Coast PhD in math at MIT,

08:22

and he literally didn't have a dollar to his name. So he slept on a concrete basement floor at MIT in a sleeping bag. I was born while he was there in Boston.

and he literally didn't have a dollar to his name. So he slept on a concrete basement floor at MIT in a sleeping bag. I was born while he was there in Boston.

08:31

And then, you know, he took math and he applied it to business. He actually invented

And then, you know, he took math and he applied it to business. He actually invented

08:36

all of these really cool new forms of marketing, which at the time were revolutionary. He ended up winning international marketing awards for them ended up getting promoted in the company that he joined and eventually became president of it and then decided to become an entrepreneur Can you imagine the world dream? I mean, he was basically born at the bottom of the third world. He rose to the top of the first world, started a company sold it. And then when I was twelve or thirteen, He said, Jack, I'm gonna start a company that's gonna measure everything everyone does on the internet and make sense of it. Do you wanna join it? And I joined it as the third person, as a software in and I learned how to write code. Did he give you equity?

all of these really cool new forms of marketing, which at the time were revolutionary. He ended up winning international marketing awards for them ended up getting promoted in the company that he joined and eventually became president of it and then decided to become an entrepreneur Can you imagine the world dream? I mean, he was basically born at the bottom of the third world. He rose to the top of the first world, started a company sold it. And then when I was twelve or thirteen, He said, Jack, I'm gonna start a company that's gonna measure everything everyone does on the internet and make sense of it. Do you wanna join it? And I joined it as the third person, as a software in and I learned how to write code. Did he give you equity?

09:12

Well,

Well,

09:13

so he was like, do you want cash or equity? I said equity.

so he was like, do you want cash or equity? I said equity.

09:16

I don't want cash. Just give me equity. So I took the equity and it ended up working out. Also

I don't want cash. Just give me equity. So I took the equity and it ended up working out. Also

09:21

child labor laws meant he couldn't pay me cash. So I had to get the equity. And at its peak, it was worth it. Like, he took it public. It was worth, like, six billion or something like that, like, many billions. Yeah. It ended up being worth billions at at its peak.

child labor laws meant he couldn't pay me cash. So I had to get the equity. And at its peak, it was worth it. Like, he took it public. It was worth, like, six billion or something like that, like, many billions. Yeah. It ended up being worth billions at at its peak.

09:35

He basically yeah. He grew it on his own, took it public.

He basically yeah. He grew it on his own, took it public.

09:39

It did really well. And then, you know, two or three years after it went public, he decided wanna be a public company CEO, and he got off of that, started doing investing and being on boards. But I got to see that grow just from, like, an idea in my parents sitting room

It did really well. And then, you know, two or three years after it went public, he decided wanna be a public company CEO, and he got off of that, started doing investing and being on boards. But I got to see that grow just from, like, an idea in my parents sitting room

09:55

to, you know, thousand plus person company to public company

to, you know, thousand plus person company to public company

10:00

And I just got hooked. So I started starting companies at age fifteen, and I've just been hooked. It's just been in my DNA ever since technology has been in my DNA.

And I just got hooked. So I started starting companies at age fifteen, and I've just been hooked. It's just been in my DNA ever since technology has been in my DNA.

10:09

How were you when you went when it went public?

How were you when you went when it went public?

10:13

That's a good question. I was in college, so I probably was

That's a good question. I was in college, so I probably was

10:18

like, nineteen or twenty or something like that. So he gave you shares when you were thirteen, when you were twenty, what did they end up becoming worth?

like, nineteen or twenty or something like that. So he gave you shares when you were thirteen, when you were twenty, what did they end up becoming worth?

10:26

Were you like the richest twenty year old there is? The podcast is called my first million. You might have been the youngest,

Were you like the richest twenty year old there is? The podcast is called my first million. You might have been the youngest,

10:31

the youngest person to make your first million,

the youngest person to make your first million,

10:34

if if that math adds up,

if if that math adds up,

10:36

You know, my dad

You know, my dad

10:38

was a is a very fair person, and that would have been nepotism to give me an unfair amount of share. We're here. Number three, He gave me what I deserved, which I was a twelve or thirteen year old that didn't know how to code. So I got basically paid the equivalent of, like, close to minimum wage and shares, which kind of what I deserved. Right. But it ended up being worth a lot of money, and it was great. And, yeah, it was a good taste of equity. And you start my low, it it it's acquire was it acquired for seventy five billion?

was a is a very fair person, and that would have been nepotism to give me an unfair amount of share. We're here. Number three, He gave me what I deserved, which I was a twelve or thirteen year old that didn't know how to code. So I got basically paid the equivalent of, like, close to minimum wage and shares, which kind of what I deserved. Right. But it ended up being worth a lot of money, and it was great. And, yeah, it was a good taste of equity. And you start my low, it it it's acquire was it acquired for seventy five billion?

11:05

Is that right? So you're twenty four. So Correct. Just massive success. Milo ends up becoming a pretty big deal, like, a a main part of eBay. You work on a, a bunch of, big parts at eBay. You become this kind of big shot Like, you can decline the ladder. About this because in the last two years, but basically, me so I got acquired,

Is that right? So you're twenty four. So Correct. Just massive success. Milo ends up becoming a pretty big deal, like, a a main part of eBay. You work on a, a bunch of, big parts at eBay. You become this kind of big shot Like, you can decline the ladder. About this because in the last two years, but basically, me so I got acquired,

11:25

we got acquired by Twitch to, like, you know, go from,

we got acquired by Twitch to, like, you know, go from,

11:29

a little startup to okay. It's a two thousand person company. Sam just got acquired. His company just got acquired by HubSpot. I don't know how many I mean, in places HubSpot

a little startup to okay. It's a two thousand person company. Sam just got acquired. His company just got acquired by HubSpot. I don't know how many I mean, in places HubSpot

11:37

Probably three thousand, I think. Three thousand employees. And so,

Probably three thousand, I think. Three thousand employees. And so,

11:41

and I know I would say, like, the default path for entrepreneurs I know because I talked to a bunch of them during the acquisition process of, like, alright. What's the next year of my life gonna look like? You know, what's your advice to me? And I got a whole range of, of, of, sort of opinions. But I would say the common, the default path was sort of like

and I know I would say, like, the default path for entrepreneurs I know because I talked to a bunch of them during the acquisition process of, like, alright. What's the next year of my life gonna look like? You know, what's your advice to me? And I got a whole range of, of, of, sort of opinions. But I would say the common, the default path was sort of like

11:58

look, somebody who's like you, true entrepreneur at heart, it's gonna be hard for you to be in a big company for a long time. You could choose to either, like, just not play the game. You kinda, like, coast and just do your own thing. Maybe do build a couple interesting products while you're there and then bounce whenever you're ready. Or you, like, try to play the game, you try to climb the ladder a bit and, and actually, like, figure out what what this like. There's a different game than the startup game. You're right. You're not zero to one. You're sort of in the one to end phase of things. And, you know, it's all about so sort of about management's of a lot large organization.

look, somebody who's like you, true entrepreneur at heart, it's gonna be hard for you to be in a big company for a long time. You could choose to either, like, just not play the game. You kinda, like, coast and just do your own thing. Maybe do build a couple interesting products while you're there and then bounce whenever you're ready. Or you, like, try to play the game, you try to climb the ladder a bit and, and actually, like, figure out what what this like. There's a different game than the startup game. You're right. You're not zero to one. You're sort of in the one to end phase of things. And, you know, it's all about so sort of about management's of a lot large organization.

12:30

And I think most entrepreneurs go the first route that I just mentioned, but it seems like you actually kicked ass at e bay. Like, I remember reading some article where you were basically like Like, the VP or something. You were the the the MVP, really. You were like the the the guy who's helping turn this thing around. I think it was, like, part of a bigger story of, hey, eBay is turning itself around, but,

And I think most entrepreneurs go the first route that I just mentioned, but it seems like you actually kicked ass at e bay. Like, I remember reading some article where you were basically like Like, the VP or something. You were the the the MVP, really. You were like the the the guy who's helping turn this thing around. I think it was, like, part of a bigger story of, hey, eBay is turning itself around, but,

12:49

you seem to have done extremely well.

you seem to have done extremely well.

12:51

Talk about that. Is that something where you what was your approach when you got acquired? Because And is that true? Yeah. Yeah. How much of that story is true?

Talk about that. Is that something where you what was your approach when you got acquired? Because And is that true? Yeah. Yeah. How much of that story is true?

13:00

Yeah. So,

Yeah. So,

13:01

you know, it's interesting.

you know, it's interesting.

13:04

First of all, it's definitely true. It wasn't told when I was at eBay.

First of all, it's definitely true. It wasn't told when I was at eBay.

13:09

Partially because I don't like that much attention,

Partially because I don't like that much attention,

13:13

and I don't claim credit for a lot of things while I was there. I was just catching up with, like, a reporter that I liked. And I told him this story, and he was like, this is amazing. Why hasn't anyone written about this? And ended up getting written up. And Eventually, the story got told. But,

and I don't claim credit for a lot of things while I was there. I was just catching up with, like, a reporter that I liked. And I told him this story, and he was like, this is amazing. Why hasn't anyone written about this? And ended up getting written up. And Eventually, the story got told. But,

13:29

yeah, I'm a pretty impact motivated person overall, and I had just heard all these stories about founder friends that had sold their companies, and they they sell to the acquirer,

yeah, I'm a pretty impact motivated person overall, and I had just heard all these stories about founder friends that had sold their companies, and they they sell to the acquirer,

13:39

and they languished. And they actually kinda become depressed. They're just kind of, like, they lose their mojo. They're just, like, what am I doing? What's my life becoming? They almost become, like, robotic.

and they languished. And they actually kinda become depressed. They're just kind of, like, they lose their mojo. They're just, like, what am I doing? What's my life becoming? They almost become, like, robotic.

13:49

And I was just like, you know what? Life Shore, like, I'm let me figure out how to use this experience for the good of the company of me. I'm proud of what I built. I wanna see it succeed. Let's figure out how to do that. And I went and, you know, there's some funny stories about things that we did while we were at eBay to try to maintain our culture

And I was just like, you know what? Life Shore, like, I'm let me figure out how to use this experience for the good of the company of me. I'm proud of what I built. I wanna see it succeed. Let's figure out how to do that. And I went and, you know, there's some funny stories about things that we did while we were at eBay to try to maintain our culture

14:06

We at one point, I I rallied the troops. We had this house. They've tried to put us in cubicles.

We at one point, I I rallied the troops. We had this house. They've tried to put us in cubicles.

14:11

I had the whole company rise up and go and rip down the cubicles and throw it on the front lawn, and we almost got in trouble and kicked off campus and all sorts of crazy stuff. But I basically took the approach of, like, look, what's the worst thing that can happen? They can fire me. If I get fired, I don't really care. So I might as well just go for it and try to do great things while I'm here. Right. And what's what's a great thing that I can do? Well, there's a bunch of products that eBay can build. I like building products. I'm an entrepreneur.

I had the whole company rise up and go and rip down the cubicles and throw it on the front lawn, and we almost got in trouble and kicked off campus and all sorts of crazy stuff. But I basically took the approach of, like, look, what's the worst thing that can happen? They can fire me. If I get fired, I don't really care. So I might as well just go for it and try to do great things while I'm here. Right. And what's what's a great thing that I can do? Well, there's a bunch of products that eBay can build. I like building products. I'm an entrepreneur.

14:40

I haven't tried building multiple products at once. What if I use this time at eBay to try to put together multiple teams under me and try my hand at building multiple products at once and see if I'm any good at that versus just working on one product. And I convinced the CEO to let me do that and give me a shot at it. And the majority of what we built was hitting. And, like, a lot of it was driving press cycles and the stock price. The biggest thing I did I convinced the CEO to do on a Friday.

I haven't tried building multiple products at once. What if I use this time at eBay to try to put together multiple teams under me and try my hand at building multiple products at once and see if I'm any good at that versus just working on one product. And I convinced the CEO to let me do that and give me a shot at it. And the majority of what we built was hitting. And, like, a lot of it was driving press cycles and the stock price. The biggest thing I did I convinced the CEO to do on a Friday.

15:08

That night, I convinced six people to cancel

That night, I convinced six people to cancel

15:11

their next two weeks, fly with me to Sydney, Australia, rent an Airbnb, turn it into an a hacker house, and we built the entire thing in two weeks. There's actually a story written about this online. And it ended up becoming the feed and the homepage of eBay, and a hundred thirty million people were using it nine months later.

their next two weeks, fly with me to Sydney, Australia, rent an Airbnb, turn it into an a hacker house, and we built the entire thing in two weeks. There's actually a story written about this online. And it ended up becoming the feed and the homepage of eBay, and a hundred thirty million people were using it nine months later.

15:28

As like the primary discovery mechanism on the site. And and and after that, you started a couple things before atomic, I think. Right? And those things, they're I feel like when I was researching your story, they're kind of like footnotes. Like, they're not like major parts. And yet, I researched them. They were really successful

As like the primary discovery mechanism on the site. And and and after that, you started a couple things before atomic, I think. Right? And those things, they're I feel like when I was researching your story, they're kind of like footnotes. Like, they're not like major parts. And yet, I researched them. They were really successful

15:48

like, a couple software companies. Right?

like, a couple software companies. Right?

15:51

Yeah. We've started a bunch of software companies that are still successful. They're kind of part of atomic

Yeah. We've started a bunch of software companies that are still successful. They're kind of part of atomic

15:57

is kind of how we consider them. Everything's kind of been folded into one umbrella at

is kind of how we consider them. Everything's kind of been folded into one umbrella at

16:02

at one point or another.

at one point or another.

16:05

The the other thing that I would say that is a lesson that we learned, and Sean, I don't know if you remember when we talked about startup studios about this, but

The the other thing that I would say that is a lesson that we learned, and Sean, I don't know if you remember when we talked about startup studios about this, but

16:13

One trap you can have with startup studios is when you have hundreds of ideas. And when I left eBay, I had two hundred fifty potential ideas for my next company.

One trap you can have with startup studios is when you have hundreds of ideas. And when I left eBay, I had two hundred fifty potential ideas for my next company.

16:23

Is the temptation is to try them all. And the thing that we did at atomic is we only did one the first year to the second, three the third,

Is the temptation is to try them all. And the thing that we did at atomic is we only did one the first year to the second, three the third,

16:31

for the fourth. We really paced ourselves.

for the fourth. We really paced ourselves.

16:34

And I think, you know, now we're at the point where we can do ten or twelve a year.

And I think, you know, now we're at the point where we can do ten or twelve a year.

16:40

But that was kind of part of that pacing process. I I remember three of those traps. I wanna say them because I'm sure there's somebody out here listening who who who

But that was kind of part of that pacing process. I I remember three of those traps. I wanna say them because I'm sure there's somebody out here listening who who who

16:48

would be curious.

would be curious.

16:50

I remember one was exactly what you said, which was Focus. So,

I remember one was exactly what you said, which was Focus. So,

16:54

the the theme is basically startup studios are great. They have a bunch of advantages. But you don't wanna lose the natural advantages that startups have. And so startups have

the the theme is basically startup studios are great. They have a bunch of advantages. But you don't wanna lose the natural advantages that startups have. And so startups have

17:04

desperation

desperation

17:04

and focus as a two of the core ingredients

and focus as a two of the core ingredients

17:07

of a startup. And I said, you know, shiny object syndrome is a trap. When you have an idea lab, you could do exactly what you said. You could just go on a whiteboard, brainstorm it. That's kinda your job. And then you take one of those ideas that sounds semi plausible. And, Paul Graham, I think, calls these sitcom startup ideas. It's like, you come up with a,

of a startup. And I said, you know, shiny object syndrome is a trap. When you have an idea lab, you could do exactly what you said. You could just go on a whiteboard, brainstorm it. That's kinda your job. And then you take one of those ideas that sounds semi plausible. And, Paul Graham, I think, calls these sitcom startup ideas. It's like, you come up with a,

17:24

kind of

kind of

17:25

a manufactured

a manufactured

17:26

story for a sitcom. Like, oh, Giant a girl fall in love in college, and then, you know, their jobs take them, you know, across the country and they break up. Right? Like, you you come up with these manufactured ideas. And then the second thing is, because you have multiple ideas going at once, when you're doing at the beginning, when you're doing one, it starts to hit some rough patches or plateaus or just things get challenging like every idea does.

story for a sitcom. Like, oh, Giant a girl fall in love in college, and then, you know, their jobs take them, you know, across the country and they break up. Right? Like, you you come up with these manufactured ideas. And then the second thing is, because you have multiple ideas going at once, when you're doing at the beginning, when you're doing one, it starts to hit some rough patches or plateaus or just things get challenging like every idea does.

17:47

Well, that shiny object over there is unproven. That that one might be easier. Let's just go you either intentionally or unintentionally start to shift your focus away from the hard thing that you should really be pushing through and start just focusing on other shiny objects. The second one was desperation. You you had said something smart. You you go,

Well, that shiny object over there is unproven. That that one might be easier. Let's just go you either intentionally or unintentionally start to shift your focus away from the hard thing that you should really be pushing through and start just focusing on other shiny objects. The second one was desperation. You you had said something smart. You you go,

18:04

we're gonna fund the team. I think what you said for nine months, you go, then their job is to raise the series a in nine months.

we're gonna fund the team. I think what you said for nine months, you go, then their job is to raise the series a in nine months.

18:10

And I was like, that's great because the if otherwise in an ideal lab, these things can just languish forever. You could just keep them into sort of this feeling that, you know, not this month, the next month, no problem. And you're like, the people working on this are only gonna work on this one project. Their project needs to raise money or

And I was like, that's great because the if otherwise in an ideal lab, these things can just languish forever. You could just keep them into sort of this feeling that, you know, not this month, the next month, no problem. And you're like, the people working on this are only gonna work on this one project. Their project needs to raise money or

18:25

Sorry, guys. It's a bust. And, like, of course, you would probably recycle the best talent into the next idea, but I like that having a, sort of a dead and a and a do or die moment of, like, you either proved your shit or you didn't. That was the second, second one I remember. And the third was You're like, we're gonna focus on b to b initially and not consumer stuff because we know a bunch of pain points that we've had as entrepreneurs or our companies have. And so we can kinda scratch your own itch and not try to make the next hit social network. And, frankly, it's probably

Sorry, guys. It's a bust. And, like, of course, you would probably recycle the best talent into the next idea, but I like that having a, sort of a dead and a and a do or die moment of, like, you either proved your shit or you didn't. That was the second, second one I remember. And the third was You're like, we're gonna focus on b to b initially and not consumer stuff because we know a bunch of pain points that we've had as entrepreneurs or our companies have. And so we can kinda scratch your own itch and not try to make the next hit social network. And, frankly, it's probably

18:54

so much easier.

so much easier.

18:56

Although hims was a consumer company. So, you know, you know, but maybe who do not wanna pry, but maybe you're scratching your own itch there too.

Although hims was a consumer company. So, you know, you know, but maybe who do not wanna pry, but maybe you're scratching your own itch there too.

19:02

Well, you know, it it

Well, you know, it it

19:05

No. Well, that was that was a bunch of

No. Well, that was that was a bunch of

19:08

that was a hair loss company. I swabbed my hair as

that was a hair loss company. I swabbed my hair as

19:11

goes a hair loss. He was he he was about to Jack was about to skip that one over, and then he was like, oh, I gotta trim that up.

goes a hair loss. He was he he was about to Jack was about to skip that one over, and then he was like, oh, I gotta trim that up.

19:21

You know, that

You know, that

19:22

a VC told me who I really respect

a VC told me who I really respect

19:25

that the way you make your money in the venture business

that the way you make your money in the venture business

19:29

is b to b, those are your singles and doubles. Typically, and consumer can be your home runs. That can be your lightning in the bottle. And you should plan your portfolio

is b to b, those are your singles and doubles. Typically, and consumer can be your home runs. That can be your lightning in the bottle. And you should plan your portfolio

19:40

accordingly. Who said that?

accordingly. Who said that?

19:44

That's a good question.

That's a good question.

19:46

I think it was one of the managing partners from general catalysts, if I remember correctly,

I think it was one of the managing partners from general catalysts, if I remember correctly,

19:52

and they're great. We do some work with them. They're pretty fantastic.

and they're great. We do some work with them. They're pretty fantastic.

19:56

And,

And,

19:57

you know, since then, b to b has actually been able to become home runs Right. Additionally. Right? Like the valuations

you know, since then, b to b has actually been able to become home runs Right. Additionally. Right? Like the valuations

20:03

on some of these b to b companies is app absolutely astronomical, but the great thing about doing b to b is you can talk to the customer and you can trust what they say. Right. And that is not necessarily true for consumer.

on some of these b to b companies is app absolutely astronomical, but the great thing about doing b to b is you can talk to the customer and you can trust what they say. Right. And that is not necessarily true for consumer.

20:16

Consumers you can talk to them, and you almost have to read between the lines with what they say. You can't trust they say. You can trust what they do. You have to kind of run them through the product. You have to look at the data and see what they do. But what they do is actually usually different than what they say. And what works is not always what they say is gonna work. Part of that is consumers don't know in their mind what they need They don't know. It's hard. They they can't dream it up. So it's a very different practice creating consumer companies from b to b companies

Consumers you can talk to them, and you almost have to read between the lines with what they say. You can't trust they say. You can trust what they do. You have to kind of run them through the product. You have to look at the data and see what they do. But what they do is actually usually different than what they say. And what works is not always what they say is gonna work. Part of that is consumers don't know in their mind what they need They don't know. It's hard. They they can't dream it up. So it's a very different practice creating consumer companies from b to b companies

20:47

But to address your other point, Sean, of the nine months and, you know, having companies raise on their own, that is, like, a purposeful element that we designed atomic in.

But to address your other point, Sean, of the nine months and, you know, having companies raise on their own, that is, like, a purposeful element that we designed atomic in.

20:57

Which is we tried to design atomic

Which is we tried to design atomic

20:59

to be uncomfortable

to be uncomfortable

21:01

at the atomic level So companies are pushed out. And people are pushed out of atomic, and there's not this effect where people just stay in the incubator forever. Because it's dangerous to do that. And

at the atomic level So companies are pushed out. And people are pushed out of atomic, and there's not this effect where people just stay in the incubator forever. Because it's dangerous to do that. And

21:14

that is Is it nine months and three hundred thousand dollars? Is that right? Or two hundred and fifty thousand or something?

that is Is it nine months and three hundred thousand dollars? Is that right? Or two hundred and fifty thousand or something?

21:20

So we have

So we have

21:22

multiple stages of investment.

multiple stages of investment.

21:25

The first check that we'll write to kind of get something going and do some initial research and homework.

The first check that we'll write to kind of get something going and do some initial research and homework.

21:31

Is around a quarter million dollars, but it could range from a hundred thousand to four hundred thousand.

Is around a quarter million dollars, but it could range from a hundred thousand to four hundred thousand.

21:36

And then if that goes well, we can write a check That's usually two million dollars, but again, it could be one to four million dollars.

And then if that goes well, we can write a check That's usually two million dollars, but again, it could be one to four million dollars.

21:43

And then from there, we can actually write a check that could be three to eight million dollars.

And then from there, we can actually write a check that could be three to eight million dollars.

21:48

That sometimes we do with other VCs. Sometimes we do on our own. Kind of depends on the circumstances. Depends on the needs of the company and what we need to get to the next set of milestones.

That sometimes we do with other VCs. Sometimes we do on our own. Kind of depends on the circumstances. Depends on the needs of the company and what we need to get to the next set of milestones.

21:58

But that's kind of how it works now. That's been evolving over our funds. And our first fund, it was smaller. So we obviously only did like the early rounds, which is what Sean is describing.

But that's kind of how it works now. That's been evolving over our funds. And our first fund, it was smaller. So we obviously only did like the early rounds, which is what Sean is describing.

22:08

And then as it's gotten bigger, we're we're able to get the companies further, which is why we can keep them stealth longer. And now when they come out, they usually have raised these really big rounds.

And then as it's gotten bigger, we're we're able to get the companies further, which is why we can keep them stealth longer. And now when they come out, they usually have raised these really big rounds.

22:18

Did you when you when you were starting this, How much of your own money did you put up to do this? And were you like, alright,

Did you when you when you were starting this, How much of your own money did you put up to do this? And were you like, alright,

22:24

you know, I made this much money. I'm willing to lose a million dollars over the next two years to see if I can make this work.

you know, I made this much money. I'm willing to lose a million dollars over the next two years to see if I can make this work.

22:31

Yeah. It's a good question.

Yeah. It's a good question.

22:32

So

So

22:33

my general philosophy with things is

my general philosophy with things is

22:36

you shouldn't sell what you wouldn't also buy. So I wanted to prove to myself that this would work before raising outside capital. So the first

you shouldn't sell what you wouldn't also buy. So I wanted to prove to myself that this would work before raising outside capital. So the first

22:46

year, so of atomic, I did it with my own capital, which was roughly on the order of what you described.

year, so of atomic, I did it with my own capital, which was roughly on the order of what you described.

22:52

And then once I was convinced, okay,

And then once I was convinced, okay,

22:54

I think this is working. I think we can pull this off I think this model is gonna work, then we raised our first fund. And our first fund was, you know, roughly the first first part of the first fund was roughly a ten million dollar vehicle.

I think this is working. I think we can pull this off I think this model is gonna work, then we raised our first fund. And our first fund was, you know, roughly the first first part of the first fund was roughly a ten million dollar vehicle.

23:06

Those primarily individuals. And we had some great founders of venture capital firms involved, like Marc andresen, and

Those primarily individuals. And we had some great founders of venture capital firms involved, like Marc andresen, and

23:14

Iiden Sendkit and Peter Teel and people like that that helped us a lot in the early days,

Iiden Sendkit and Peter Teel and people like that that helped us a lot in the early days,

23:20

and that helped us prove out the model from there. And since then, we've raised much, much larger funds. You you have a couple of things on the agenda that I I I wanna know the answer to. And one is what you just said. You've,

and that helped us prove out the model from there. And since then, we've raised much, much larger funds. You you have a couple of things on the agenda that I I I wanna know the answer to. And one is what you just said. You've,

23:32

andresen brought back to your your fine, Chris Dixon, David Sachs, Peter Teal,

andresen brought back to your your fine, Chris Dixon, David Sachs, Peter Teal,

23:36

And you said, what on here, it says some of the some of the learnings from some of these kind of, like, pretty amazing people. These are some of the, like, architects

And you said, what on here, it says some of the some of the learnings from some of these kind of, like, pretty amazing people. These are some of the, like, architects

23:43

of, like, you know, the modern Silicon Valley

of, like, you know, the modern Silicon Valley

23:46

I guess, do you have any, like, fun stories, anecdotes or lessons learned that are,

I guess, do you have any, like, fun stories, anecdotes or lessons learned that are,

23:51

you know, not what's you know, I guess, like, just absolute common sense where you just say, we all already know that. But what have you learned from some of these guys that's that's been that stood out to you or stuck with you? And, add in Josh Kushner on there too, because he interests me as well. He he, which he almost has a model like yours.

you know, not what's you know, I guess, like, just absolute common sense where you just say, we all already know that. But what have you learned from some of these guys that's that's been that stood out to you or stuck with you? And, add in Josh Kushner on there too, because he interests me as well. He he, which he almost has a model like yours.

24:07

Yeah. He also starts companies. I love Josh. Josh is fantastic.

Yeah. He also starts companies. I love Josh. Josh is fantastic.

24:12

Wow.

Wow.

24:14

Well, those are great people.

Well, those are great people.

24:16

The first thing I'd say, and you know, this is just a general thing. It's like,

The first thing I'd say, and you know, this is just a general thing. It's like,

24:21

there are some amazing people out in the world. I'm surprised how many people don't approach them and just them for advice and mentorship.

there are some amazing people out in the world. I'm surprised how many people don't approach them and just them for advice and mentorship.

24:29

And that's something that

And that's something that

24:32

was a major way that I learned throughout my career, and I'm so thankful to have had those people in my life and grateful for everything that I learned from them.

was a major way that I learned throughout my career, and I'm so thankful to have had those people in my life and grateful for everything that I learned from them.

24:42

You know, I'd say

You know, I'd say

24:44

maybe going going through some of them.

maybe going going through some of them.

24:48

One of the things that I learned

One of the things that I learned

24:51

from Mark and Dresen

from Mark and Dresen

24:55

was actually a a really interesting story

was actually a a really interesting story

24:58

about Peter Teal,

about Peter Teal,

25:01

that led to a really, really big insight that I had that has kind of driven a lot of my decision making since then.

that led to a really, really big insight that I had that has kind of driven a lot of my decision making since then.

25:08

Which is this concept that

Which is this concept that

25:10

time exists on this massive power law basis. And

time exists on this massive power law basis. And

25:15

you know, they were having this conversation. Apparently, Mark was telling me where Peter was talking to Mark, and he was talking about, you know, this big moment where he made this investment in Mark Zuckerberg. And he made this investment in in Facebook.

you know, they were having this conversation. Apparently, Mark was telling me where Peter was talking to Mark, and he was talking about, you know, this big moment where he made this investment in Mark Zuckerberg. And he made this investment in in Facebook.

25:27

And, you know, he said, you know, listen, Mark.

And, you know, he said, you know, listen, Mark.

25:30

I worked so hard my whole life to be able to get into Stanford. I really worked hard in in high school, and I did this, and I did that, and all these extracurriculars, I finally got into Stanford I got into Stanford.

I worked so hard my whole life to be able to get into Stanford. I really worked hard in in high school, and I did this, and I did that, and all these extracurriculars, I finally got into Stanford I got into Stanford.

25:42

I crushed it at Stanford. I tried to get, you know, the best grades while I was there. I did really well to get into Stanford law school. I got into Stanford law school. I did really well while I was there. I, you know, was really crushing it while I was there because I wanted to get into the best law firm. I got into the best law firm while I was there, you know, I realized it wasn't for me, but that enabled me to start a hedge fund. From there, I met Max Leftchin.

I crushed it at Stanford. I tried to get, you know, the best grades while I was there. I did really well to get into Stanford law school. I got into Stanford law school. I did really well while I was there. I, you know, was really crushing it while I was there because I wanted to get into the best law firm. I got into the best law firm while I was there, you know, I realized it wasn't for me, but that enabled me to start a hedge fund. From there, I met Max Leftchin.

26:05

I got the opportunity to go run PayPal. I ran that. It went public.

I got the opportunity to go run PayPal. I ran that. It went public.

26:10

You know, ended up being merging with eBay led me to start clearing capital. This hedge fund, which was kind of a dream that I'd wanted to do for a long time.

You know, ended up being merging with eBay led me to start clearing capital. This hedge fund, which was kind of a dream that I'd wanted to do for a long time.

26:19

All of this effort All of this time, all of this energy,

All of this effort All of this time, all of this energy,

26:23

everything that I had done up until this point in my life,

everything that I had done up until this point in my life,

26:27

got me one hour with Mark Zuckerberg.

got me one hour with Mark Zuckerberg.

26:32

And that hour was worth more than the cumulative sum

And that hour was worth more than the cumulative sum

26:37

of all of those other hours that I'd spent in my life.

of all of those other hours that I'd spent in my life.

26:42

And

And

26:43

that is a crazy mind blowing fact if you think about that. That there could be an hour that comes in your life that is worth more than the cumulative sum of everything else you've spent all of the time, all of the effort, all of the energy, that you've spent doing everything else. And I think that can be true for everyone. So looking out for those kind of, like, power law time moments or those power hours can be so important. And I believe that they exist and sometimes they're in plain sight So thinking about those critically, how do you put yourself in those positions where you can discover those kinds of opportunities,

that is a crazy mind blowing fact if you think about that. That there could be an hour that comes in your life that is worth more than the cumulative sum of everything else you've spent all of the time, all of the effort, all of the energy, that you've spent doing everything else. And I think that can be true for everyone. So looking out for those kind of, like, power law time moments or those power hours can be so important. And I believe that they exist and sometimes they're in plain sight So thinking about those critically, how do you put yourself in those positions where you can discover those kinds of opportunities,

27:18

and how do you almost engineer your calendar so that you can create

and how do you almost engineer your calendar so that you can create

27:22

those opportunities for yourself. I think it's an interesting question.

those opportunities for yourself. I think it's an interesting question.

27:26

What's an example of that for you? Do you have an hour? Do you is there something that stands out to you that's like your version of that hour with Zuck, or how do you engineer it?

What's an example of that for you? Do you have an hour? Do you is there something that stands out to you that's like your version of that hour with Zuck, or how do you engineer it?

27:35

Yeah. It's a really interesting question. So This is something I've never met Jeff Bezos. I'm a huge fan of his,

Yeah. It's a really interesting question. So This is something I've never met Jeff Bezos. I'm a huge fan of his,

27:43

but one of the things that he does that I think that I adopt that I think is a really, really cool practice

but one of the things that he does that I think that I adopt that I think is a really, really cool practice

27:50

is

is

27:51

you take a look at your prior week and how all of your time is spent and you you look at your calendar, you look at each block, each half an hour, each hour,

you take a look at your prior week and how all of your time is spent and you you look at your calendar, you look at each block, each half an hour, each hour,

28:02

and you You basically I I basically modified a little bit what he does, but you asked the question

and you You basically I I basically modified a little bit what he does, but you asked the question

28:08

for all of these things that I did last week. What are the things where if I hadn't done this thing, nothing would have changed.

for all of these things that I did last week. What are the things where if I hadn't done this thing, nothing would have changed.

28:17

And you cross it off the list.

And you cross it off the list.

28:20

And if things keep getting crossed off that list, you probably shouldn't be doing them.

And if things keep getting crossed off that list, you probably shouldn't be doing them.

28:25

You should probably find a way to get out of those kinds of meetings. Or replace yourself in those kinds of meetings or hire someone perhaps to, you know, take those kinds of meetings for you.

You should probably find a way to get out of those kinds of meetings. Or replace yourself in those kinds of meetings or hire someone perhaps to, you know, take those kinds of meetings for you.

28:36

Because they're not as productive.

Because they're not as productive.

28:38

And then really circle

And then really circle

28:40

the things that really, really matter. You know, there could be within a week if if it in a lifetime,

the things that really, really matter. You know, there could be within a week if if it in a lifetime,

28:46

you can have an hour that's worth the cumulative sum of the hours. You can certainly have that in a week. Right? You can have that in a month. You can have that in a year. So really training your mind

you can have an hour that's worth the cumulative sum of the hours. You can certainly have that in a week. Right? You can have that in a month. You can have that in a year. So really training your mind

28:57

toward, you know, what those things are,

toward, you know, what those things are,

29:00

and circling them and having that pattern recognition can make a lot sense.

and circling them and having that pattern recognition can make a lot sense.

29:07

I like that. So that's kind of I used to have a job that was kind of like a shitty job. It paid really well, but I just didn't like it. And I remember talking to my friend there and I go,

I like that. So that's kind of I used to have a job that was kind of like a shitty job. It paid really well, but I just didn't like it. And I remember talking to my friend there and I go,

29:17

he's like, why why don't you like it? Like, it's all good. Like, it's an easy job. We're making great money. We're, you know, they they really respect us, they like us. What's the problem? And I was like, the problem is I feel like if I didn't come here today, nothing would change. And if I, you know, and then you'd boil that down. It's like, if I don't do anything this hour, definitely nothing's gonna change. And we called it. It's kinda like you said, you you look at all those blocks you sort of figure out which blocks matter. And we literally said the same thing, and we called it the Jango law, which was, you know, in a tower of Jango blocks. If you remove some blocks, the tower's totally fine. And then other blocks are like the key linchpins, and there's some some point where you remove too many and the whole tower tips over and it falls. And so you don't you don't wanna remove those anchors, but there are plenty of sort of useless blocks that are in there. And if you take them out, you make space, then something interesting can happen. And so we started doing that. I started I first started with an hour. I said, okay. Every day from one PM to two PM, I'd do nothing. It wasn't to be lazy. It was to test what happens? And then, of course, nothing happened. Nobody noticed it. Your office space moment. Yeah. Exactly. Nice. Took half a day off. I'm just gonna do nothing but the second half to stay. See what happens. Nothing happened. They used to stop coming to work for, like, two weeks. Right? And finally, by, like, the fourth week, it was, like, they, you know, they were, like, hey. What the heck? Where are you? We noticed that these things were behind. And What job was this? It was a job I had in Australia. And my my after my first company kind of got, like, aqua hired, I was working for this thing. And, yeah, it was a it was a fun It was, again, a nice place, but it really taught me that, like, one thing that matters to me is

he's like, why why don't you like it? Like, it's all good. Like, it's an easy job. We're making great money. We're, you know, they they really respect us, they like us. What's the problem? And I was like, the problem is I feel like if I didn't come here today, nothing would change. And if I, you know, and then you'd boil that down. It's like, if I don't do anything this hour, definitely nothing's gonna change. And we called it. It's kinda like you said, you you look at all those blocks you sort of figure out which blocks matter. And we literally said the same thing, and we called it the Jango law, which was, you know, in a tower of Jango blocks. If you remove some blocks, the tower's totally fine. And then other blocks are like the key linchpins, and there's some some point where you remove too many and the whole tower tips over and it falls. And so you don't you don't wanna remove those anchors, but there are plenty of sort of useless blocks that are in there. And if you take them out, you make space, then something interesting can happen. And so we started doing that. I started I first started with an hour. I said, okay. Every day from one PM to two PM, I'd do nothing. It wasn't to be lazy. It was to test what happens? And then, of course, nothing happened. Nobody noticed it. Your office space moment. Yeah. Exactly. Nice. Took half a day off. I'm just gonna do nothing but the second half to stay. See what happens. Nothing happened. They used to stop coming to work for, like, two weeks. Right? And finally, by, like, the fourth week, it was, like, they, you know, they were, like, hey. What the heck? Where are you? We noticed that these things were behind. And What job was this? It was a job I had in Australia. And my my after my first company kind of got, like, aqua hired, I was working for this thing. And, yeah, it was a it was a fun It was, again, a nice place, but it really taught me that, like, one thing that matters to me is

30:45

that my hours matter.

that my hours matter.

30:46

Like, I want my hours to matter. That doesn't mean I wanna work super hard. But when I when I do do something, I want it to matter, and I started doing what you're doing, which is, like, recognizing that it's not linear. Every hour is not equal.

Like, I want my hours to matter. That doesn't mean I wanna work super hard. But when I when I do do something, I want it to matter, and I started doing what you're doing, which is, like, recognizing that it's not linear. Every hour is not equal.

30:58

We kind of get trained this way. Right? You're gonna work Monday through Friday, nine to five. If there's this assumption that Monday was th Thursday

We kind of get trained this way. Right? You're gonna work Monday through Friday, nine to five. If there's this assumption that Monday was th Thursday

31:05

that, you know, the first hour of eight hour day is the same as the fourth but they're definitely not in productivity or importance.

that, you know, the first hour of eight hour day is the same as the fourth but they're definitely not in productivity or importance.

31:12

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

31:14

I think that that's absolutely right.

I think that that's absolutely right.

31:16

I wanna ask you about very specific ideas. So in the pump podcast,

I wanna ask you about very specific ideas. So in the pump podcast,

31:21

basically, you you said something I entirely agree with. Which is distribute or I don't know if you said it or if it but it was discussed distribution over ideas. So you look at,

basically, you you said something I entirely agree with. Which is distribute or I don't know if you said it or if it but it was discussed distribution over ideas. So you look at,

31:30

you wanna know,

you wanna know,

31:31

how do I get early customers and can this actually scale?

how do I get early customers and can this actually scale?

31:36

Some of the ways that you do that is you look at the payback period. So you try to see try to get that as low as possible. So if I acquire a customer, how much how long does it take to get my money back, you said the best in class is three months. You also said that the LTV to CAC best in class is five.

Some of the ways that you do that is you look at the payback period. So you try to see try to get that as low as possible. So if I acquire a customer, how much how long does it take to get my money back, you said the best in class is three months. You also said that the LTV to CAC best in class is five.

31:51

Meaning,

Meaning,

31:52

you acquire a customer for a dollar. They're worth five dollars too.

you acquire a customer for a dollar. They're worth five dollars too.

31:56

And you also said that you have a very, at this point, very strict standards for launching companies. So you said you have six hundred ideas. You can launch up to ten now, and that's many years into this.

And you also said that you have a very, at this point, very strict standards for launching companies. So you said you have six hundred ideas. You can launch up to ten now, and that's many years into this.

32:10

So

So

32:10

what I wanna talk about is

what I wanna talk about is

32:13

What ideas

What ideas

32:14

didn't cross this threshold?

didn't cross this threshold?

32:17

But in your head, you think it could have, or if the right person does this, it definitely maybe could work, or maybe it couldn't

But in your head, you think it could have, or if the right person does this, it definitely maybe could work, or maybe it couldn't

32:26

meet some of those benchmarks, but it's still pretty cool and pretty good. What, can you tell me some ideas that keep you up at night? Honorable

meet some of those benchmarks, but it's still pretty cool and pretty good. What, can you tell me some ideas that keep you up at night? Honorable

32:34

mention.

mention.

32:37

Good question.

Good question.

32:40

That was a good question about the way.

That was a good question about the way.

32:43

Let me let me think through that. I mean, there there have been plenty, plenty, plenty over the years.

Let me let me think through that. I mean, there there have been plenty, plenty, plenty over the years.

32:48

To think through. I'm just trying to think through some worth calling. Take out take out your evernote and just scroll. Yeah. I know. I know. I just wanna click, click share And then add Sam at sampar dot com. Yeah. Totally.

To think through. I'm just trying to think through some worth calling. Take out take out your evernote and just scroll. Yeah. I know. I know. I just wanna click, click share And then add Sam at sampar dot com. Yeah. Totally.

33:01

Okay. Well, I'll I'll give you some examples. So one example is,

Okay. Well, I'll I'll give you some examples. So one example is,

33:06

Alright. So talk about problem solution. So we got this we got this new office in in letterman and the presidio for those of you who don't know in San Francisco.

Alright. So talk about problem solution. So we got this we got this new office in in letterman and the presidio for those of you who don't know in San Francisco.

33:16

That's kinda like a national park. There's, like, a lot of trees around.

That's kinda like a national park. There's, like, a lot of trees around.

33:20

And we got this new office,

And we got this new office,

33:22

and I was just a mess in this office. I was sneezing. I was feeling awful, like, every day. And I just had the these horrible allergies, and I couldn't get rid of these allergies. And I, like, it took me three or four months to get an appointment and an allergist. Was it like gold or something?

and I was just a mess in this office. I was sneezing. I was feeling awful, like, every day. And I just had the these horrible allergies, and I couldn't get rid of these allergies. And I, like, it took me three or four months to get an appointment and an allergist. Was it like gold or something?

33:37

Well, I have no idea. I was like, what could this be? Like, obviously, there's something new about this environment.

Well, I have no idea. I was like, what could this be? Like, obviously, there's something new about this environment.

33:42

So I went to this allergist. I got tested.

So I went to this allergist. I got tested.

33:45

And of all the possible things I could be allergic to, it was the one tree that was growing outside the window my new office that I could not move that was, like, protected by the city. Anyway, so I I had to deal with it.

And of all the possible things I could be allergic to, it was the one tree that was growing outside the window my new office that I could not move that was, like, protected by the city. Anyway, so I I had to deal with it.

33:57

In the process,

In the process,

33:59

you know, what are your options in terms of getting treated for allergies? Well, you can get allergy shots, which are painful. You have to go every week. They have to be scheduled.

you know, what are your options in terms of getting treated for allergies? Well, you can get allergy shots, which are painful. You have to go every week. They have to be scheduled.

34:07

They're expensive.

They're expensive.

34:09

Like, they take a lot of we're talking about time power law. I don't wanna be driving around the city, getting these allergy allergy shots every week.

Like, they take a lot of we're talking about time power law. I don't wanna be driving around the city, getting these allergy allergy shots every week.

34:16

Or you can do something called sublingual immunotherapy.

Or you can do something called sublingual immunotherapy.

34:19

So, basically, like, there's two ways to get these allergens in increasing quantities into your immune system so that you you get used to them. One is through an injection, and others by putting them under your tongue. Both ways they get into your bloodstream.

So, basically, like, there's two ways to get these allergens in increasing quantities into your immune system so that you you get used to them. One is through an injection, and others by putting them under your tongue. Both ways they get into your bloodstream.

34:33

So I I said, well, I wanna do the thing under your tongue. You can do it at home. It's a drop a day in the morning. That seems a lot easier.

So I I said, well, I wanna do the thing under your tongue. You can do it at home. It's a drop a day in the morning. That seems a lot easier.

34:40

So I did that, and I got it, and it completely cured me of my allergies.

So I did that, and I got it, and it completely cured me of my allergies.

34:44

And I was like, this is amazing. Why doesn't everybody have this?

And I was like, this is amazing. Why doesn't everybody have this?

34:48

Look look at all these kids. They're going. They're getting these allergy shots. You go and you look. And structurally, it's really messed up because the allergist get paid for giving these allergy shots. That's why there's so many allergy shots. You go to the allergist, they bill your insurance.

Look look at all these kids. They're going. They're getting these allergy shots. You go and you look. And structurally, it's really messed up because the allergist get paid for giving these allergy shots. That's why there's so many allergy shots. You go to the allergist, they bill your insurance.

35:04

So every visit you do, they get paid versus every sublingual drop you do at home. They're not getting paid. So that's actually, you know, normally the perfect setup, right, for, like, creating a a company. It's like, okay, let's disrupt. There's this misaligned incentive. Let's go go ahead and disrupt this. Lot of people suffering, huge pain point.

So every visit you do, they get paid versus every sublingual drop you do at home. They're not getting paid. So that's actually, you know, normally the perfect setup, right, for, like, creating a a company. It's like, okay, let's disrupt. There's this misaligned incentive. Let's go go ahead and disrupt this. Lot of people suffering, huge pain point.

35:24

People really, really hate their allergies.

People really, really hate their allergies.

35:27

So we went you know, we found a compounded pharmacy. We found, like, supply chain is actually pretty difficult to, like, source and get right and treat all these allergies and figure out how to do

So we went you know, we found a compounded pharmacy. We found, like, supply chain is actually pretty difficult to, like, source and get right and treat all these allergies and figure out how to do

35:38

in. And we went and we we tested it, and just the economics just don't work. And

in. And we went and we we tested it, and just the economics just don't work. And

35:44

it's just

it's just

35:45

I think they should work. I think it's dramatically better than getting shots at the allergist. I feel like

I think they should work. I think it's dramatically better than getting shots at the allergist. I feel like

35:52

I don't understand why this isn't the way everyone gets cured of their allergies. We attempted to make the world better by giving everyone this way of getting cured of their allergies.

I don't understand why this isn't the way everyone gets cured of their allergies. We attempted to make the world better by giving everyone this way of getting cured of their allergies.

36:02

But we just weren't able to figure it out. And then we tried selling it through doctors and, you know, the allergists, of course, don't want their revenue stream. To be disrupted of getting the allergy shots. So that's not gonna work. So eventually, we said, you know what? We got a lot of other problems to solve and opportunity cost is really high. What what about it? Didn't it work? The the medics were too expensive.

But we just weren't able to figure it out. And then we tried selling it through doctors and, you know, the allergists, of course, don't want their revenue stream. To be disrupted of getting the allergy shots. So that's not gonna work. So eventually, we said, you know what? We got a lot of other problems to solve and opportunity cost is really high. What what about it? Didn't it work? The the medics were too expensive.

36:24

Just the unit economics. Yeah. We couldn't we couldn't get the unit economics you know, do you remember how much, like, some what some of the numbers were?

Just the unit economics. Yeah. We couldn't we couldn't get the unit economics you know, do you remember how much, like, some what some of the numbers were?

36:31

Well, you let's see.

Well, you let's see.

36:33

We were trying really we we tried a bunch of different price points in terms of, like, monthly price for these sublingual drops

We were trying really we we tried a bunch of different price points in terms of, like, monthly price for these sublingual drops

36:40

ranging from, like, seventy nine a month all the way up to, like, two fifty a month. Because these are our tests. You know, we're testing the pricing.

ranging from, like, seventy nine a month all the way up to, like, two fifty a month. Because these are our tests. You know, we're testing the pricing.

36:48

That obviously gets you a gross

That obviously gets you a gross

36:51

margin depending on that price.

margin depending on that price.

36:53

And then, you know, there's a CAC to acquire the customer.

And then, you know, there's a CAC to acquire the customer.

36:57

And the problem in this case was just the CAC was really, really high.

And the problem in this case was just the CAC was really, really high.

37:01

I don't know if it's, you know, a new thing. Customers don't know about it. They need to be educated. Maybe they're skeptical.

I don't know if it's, you know, a new thing. Customers don't know about it. They need to be educated. Maybe they're skeptical.

37:08

Hard to sell over the internet.

Hard to sell over the internet.

37:10

I'm not sure, but the, you know, we're really good at producing low packs. We're really good at scaling things. We just couldn't figure out how to get the low on this. We did a lot of different iterations.

I'm not sure, but the, you know, we're really good at producing low packs. We're really good at scaling things. We just couldn't figure out how to get the low on this. We did a lot of different iterations.

37:22

And, you know, the other way that can work is if the churn is really low and you just get payments for a long time. This should be it takes about

And, you know, the other way that can work is if the churn is really low and you just get payments for a long time. This should be it takes about

37:29

a year to three years to fully cure.

a year to three years to fully cure.

37:33

But it just didn't work out. The math didn't work out. And, you know, that's the kind of thing.

But it just didn't work out. The math didn't work out. And, you know, that's the kind of thing.

37:38

The world should be that way. It should be that way. And, like, you can be an entrepreneur and believe that. And I still believe that, but you'll be knocking your head against a brick wall forever and get nowhere.

The world should be that way. It should be that way. And, like, you can be an entrepreneur and believe that. And I still believe that, but you'll be knocking your head against a brick wall forever and get nowhere.

37:50

And there are other problems like that that you can solve

And there are other problems like that that you can solve

37:54

that can become huge and it's just better in our view to work on this. So that's why I've adopted this philosophy,

that can become huge and it's just better in our view to work on this. So that's why I've adopted this philosophy,

38:01

which is exactly what you said, which is distribution is more important than ideas,

which is exactly what you said, which is distribution is more important than ideas,

38:06

and we only wanna work on ideas.

and we only wanna work on ideas.

38:08

That can achieve mass distribution

That can achieve mass distribution

38:10

because our view is life is short

because our view is life is short

38:13

and, you know, up for us and our co founders,

and, you know, up for us and our co founders,

38:16

we wanna, you know, prize our time. And we only wanna work on things that can reach a lot of customers, whether they're consumers or businesses,

we wanna, you know, prize our time. And we only wanna work on things that can reach a lot of customers, whether they're consumers or businesses,

38:24

we want it to matter.

we want it to matter.

38:26

So we we try to validate that as much as possible up front. What are some other ones that you've done that maybe could have worked? But just, mister Mark, You you have a different, like, different bullet here that you can do if you if it's hard to think of that, which is patterns for great company ideas, and it says three ideas to talk about. So I'm curious about those.

So we we try to validate that as much as possible up front. What are some other ones that you've done that maybe could have worked? But just, mister Mark, You you have a different, like, different bullet here that you can do if you if it's hard to think of that, which is patterns for great company ideas, and it says three ideas to talk about. So I'm curious about those.

38:45

Yeah.

Yeah.

38:46

I'll I'm gonna throw out

I'll I'm gonna throw out

38:48

another one

another one

38:50

that was, like, a crazier idea that we we looked into.

that was, like, a crazier idea that we we looked into.

38:53

That I'm just gonna put out there as a crazy idea. Maybe someone on this podcast will do it. I still think it's a good idea.

That I'm just gonna put out there as a crazy idea. Maybe someone on this podcast will do it. I still think it's a good idea.

39:03

But

But

39:03

There are some problems with it, so I'll I'll disclose it.

There are some problems with it, so I'll I'll disclose it.

39:07

So,

So,

39:09

you know, there's all this technology, computer vision, etcetera,

you know, there's all this technology, computer vision, etcetera,

39:12

that's been developed for autonomous vehicles.

that's been developed for autonomous vehicles.

39:16

So cars, self driving cars. So cars, they drive around. There's a lot of issues. Right? Like, you've got stop signs. You've got stoplights. You've got gotta be able to identify colors. There's people coming. There's bikes. There's all this stuff in the environment. You know, there's it's two d, but it's also three d. You go up. You go down. There's weather. There's all of this stuff.

So cars, self driving cars. So cars, they drive around. There's a lot of issues. Right? Like, you've got stop signs. You've got stoplights. You've got gotta be able to identify colors. There's people coming. There's bikes. There's all this stuff in the environment. You know, there's it's two d, but it's also three d. You go up. You go down. There's weather. There's all of this stuff.

39:35

So we were trying to think

So we were trying to think

39:37

What are some interesting, you know, ways that this technology could potentially be applied

What are some interesting, you know, ways that this technology could potentially be applied

39:41

and, you know, a crazy idea that I had that I I had us look into?

and, you know, a crazy idea that I had that I I had us look into?

39:45

Was what if you created autonomous fishing vessels

Was what if you created autonomous fishing vessels

39:49

that went out into the ocean and just fished twenty four seven? Even through inclement weather, and they have, like,

that went out into the ocean and just fished twenty four seven? Even through inclement weather, and they have, like,

39:57

crazy sonar

crazy sonar

39:58

and, like, computer vision underwater.

and, like, computer vision underwater.

40:00

And they could find the fish, and they just, you know, automatically did all of that.

And they could find the fish, and they just, you know, automatically did all of that.

40:06

And, you know, we looked into it, and you know, it's it's still such interesting technology. I hope someone does build it,

And, you know, we looked into it, and you know, it's it's still such interesting technology. I hope someone does build it,

40:13

but that there's some structural issues with it around fishing quotas

but that there's some structural issues with it around fishing quotas

40:18

and

and

40:19

the industry industry capture of that industry that we could get into another time,

the industry industry capture of that industry that we could get into another time,

40:24

to kind of make it a little bit difficult, but that's another idea.

to kind of make it a little bit difficult, but that's another idea.

40:29

But, anyway, yeah, I I'm happy to we can discuss that more. I'm happy to progress into the patterns behind

But, anyway, yeah, I I'm happy to we can discuss that more. I'm happy to progress into the patterns behind

40:35

go to go to the patterns.

go to go to the patterns.

40:37

I'd be curious to what those are. Okay. Cool.

I'd be curious to what those are. Okay. Cool.

40:40

Sounds good.

Sounds good.

40:44

Yeah. So some patterns

Yeah. So some patterns

40:47

that

that

40:49

I think are kind of tried and true

I think are kind of tried and true

40:52

that are really interesting to to think about.

that are really interesting to to think about.

40:57

One pattern is if you take things

One pattern is if you take things

41:01

that

that

41:02

rich people have access to or rich companies

rich people have access to or rich companies

41:06

have access to. And you figure out how to democratize them.

have access to. And you figure out how to democratize them.

41:10

So you make them more accessible,

So you make them more accessible,

41:12

distributable, cheaper,

distributable, cheaper,

41:14

and accessible to everyone.

and accessible to everyone.

41:16

That is a winning formula for creating a really good company.

That is a winning formula for creating a really good company.

41:20

And part of the reason for that from a fill philosophical perspective, this is actually something I learned from Mark Henderson.

And part of the reason for that from a fill philosophical perspective, this is actually something I learned from Mark Henderson.

41:27

He has this belief that

He has this belief that

41:29

human desires infinite,

human desires infinite,

41:32

which is an interesting concept.

which is an interesting concept.

41:34

And if you believe that, then people with a lot of resources and companies with a lot of resource are willing to spend on the outer limit of human desire. So they're poking around, they're figuring out all of these things of what's the next thing on the human desire bubble that could be discovered.

And if you believe that, then people with a lot of resources and companies with a lot of resource are willing to spend on the outer limit of human desire. So they're poking around, they're figuring out all of these things of what's the next thing on the human desire bubble that could be discovered.

41:51

And they might discover something. And if something there really takes hold, that you can then take and give to everyone,

And they might discover something. And if something there really takes hold, that you can then take and give to everyone,

41:58

everyone might want that, and it it might be ready for everyone. Like, what? Like, Uber

everyone might want that, and it it might be ready for everyone. Like, what? Like, Uber

42:03

was a classic example of this. Right? People had private drivers.

was a classic example of this. Right? People had private drivers.

42:06

Now everybody can push a button and have a private driver driver pick them up. Yeah. Private driver,

Now everybody can push a button and have a private driver driver pick them up. Yeah. Private driver,

42:12

with Uber,

with Uber,

42:14

private chef, with DoorDash,

private chef, with DoorDash,

42:16

private shopper, with Instacart,

private shopper, with Instacart,

42:19

Those are all, you know, really good examples.

Those are all, you know, really good examples.

42:22

You could even argue, you know, second home

You could even argue, you know, second home

42:24

Airbnb.

Airbnb.

42:26

It's kinda like having access to a second home much in a much cheaper way. And so what's a what's an idea in that space? So what are some other things that you've seen that either

It's kinda like having access to a second home much in a much cheaper way. And so what's a what's an idea in that space? So what are some other things that you've seen that either

42:35

very wealthy people or very wealthy companies have that the rest of us don't. What are some other what are some other examples in there that that, you know, haven't looked into it, but might might be might be interesting. Well, I think that there seems to be some kind of a renaissance happening in fintech partially because

very wealthy people or very wealthy companies have that the rest of us don't. What are some other what are some other examples in there that that, you know, haven't looked into it, but might might be might be interesting. Well, I think that there seems to be some kind of a renaissance happening in fintech partially because

42:51

the wealthy seem to have access to financial planning, financial resources around planning, access to the markets. You know, there's this whole ninety nine percent versus the one percent, and people have kind of figured that out. And I think that's why you're seeing this boom of new companies.

the wealthy seem to have access to financial planning, financial resources around planning, access to the markets. You know, there's this whole ninety nine percent versus the one percent, and people have kind of figured that out. And I think that's why you're seeing this boom of new companies.

43:08

If you can give the ninety nine percent with the one percent has access to and the ability to generate wealth. I think that that's actually really interesting. I think there are a lot of interesting startup ideas that are being formed there. We're starting

If you can give the ninety nine percent with the one percent has access to and the ability to generate wealth. I think that that's actually really interesting. I think there are a lot of interesting startup ideas that are being formed there. We're starting

43:21

one or two,

one or two,

43:23

that we think can help empower people in that area. For example,

that we think can help empower people in that area. For example,

43:27

So that would be, you know, one example of of an area that Are you gonna do anything in the wealth advisor space?

So that would be, you know, one example of of an area that Are you gonna do anything in the wealth advisor space?

43:36

We're kind of tangentially doing things there. I think that there's probably a lot more to do there.

We're kind of tangentially doing things there. I think that there's probably a lot more to do there.

43:43

You know, wealth advisory is a compounded issue where even the wealthy when they have access to wealth advisory,

You know, wealth advisory is a compounded issue where even the wealthy when they have access to wealth advisory,

43:51

it's not

it's not

43:52

Great. It's not great. Have have you heard of have you heard of Adpart, Sean?

Great. It's not great. Have have you heard of have you heard of Adpart, Sean?

43:57

No.

No.

43:58

So I I bet you have, Jack. Right? Atapar? Yeah. Atapar. Sorry. And so atapar was started by Joe Linsdale, I think. Right? I only know, like, you know, the Wikipedia version But, basically, it's a it's kinda like mint dot com, but for really wealthy people, I actually but like billionaire wealthy people, I actually don't know what features necessarily it has that,

So I I bet you have, Jack. Right? Atapar? Yeah. Atapar. Sorry. And so atapar was started by Joe Linsdale, I think. Right? I only know, like, you know, the Wikipedia version But, basically, it's a it's kinda like mint dot com, but for really wealthy people, I actually but like billionaire wealthy people, I actually don't know what features necessarily it has that,

44:21

something a little bit what what would you Jack, what's it have that's more robust? Do you know? It basically has tracking of, like, everything. Every fund, everywhere in the world, every wealth manager, all of your assets,

something a little bit what what would you Jack, what's it have that's more robust? Do you know? It basically has tracking of, like, everything. Every fund, everywhere in the world, every wealth manager, all of your assets,

44:33

But they tend to work more with wealth managers instead of individuals. But Joe and that company has an in, like,

But they tend to work more with wealth managers instead of individuals. But Joe and that company has an in, like,

44:40

big vision for where that can go. And you might be able to work with it as an individual now, but that's kind of along the lines

big vision for where that can go. And you might be able to work with it as an individual now, but that's kind of along the lines

44:47

that could disrupt that. So I work with some of these folks, and they send me, like,

that could disrupt that. So I work with some of these folks, and they send me, like,

44:53

the jankiest stuff ever. And their login So, like, Morgan Stanley, the login to, like, look at your investments, it's horrible. And I was, like, you guys, this is just absolutely awful. Like, I'm just using spreadsheets on my own. This is really bad. You know, I've heard of this add a part thing and they're like, well, you know, you can't use that unless you're worth five hundred million dollars or like a billion dollars. It's it's really, really expensive, like, crazy high. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Just, like, give me a mint dot com login or something. And you guys, like, become the admin and just, like, let's share this. You could just tell me because This is dog shit. And so I think that,

the jankiest stuff ever. And their login So, like, Morgan Stanley, the login to, like, look at your investments, it's horrible. And I was, like, you guys, this is just absolutely awful. Like, I'm just using spreadsheets on my own. This is really bad. You know, I've heard of this add a part thing and they're like, well, you know, you can't use that unless you're worth five hundred million dollars or like a billion dollars. It's it's really, really expensive, like, crazy high. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Just, like, give me a mint dot com login or something. And you guys, like, become the admin and just, like, let's share this. You could just tell me because This is dog shit. And so I think that,

45:26

I think there's a lot of interesting stuff in that space, but to go back to your point about distribution. I think selling to those people are can be quite challenging because they're very old school, and they're very conservative.

I think there's a lot of interesting stuff in that space, but to go back to your point about distribution. I think selling to those people are can be quite challenging because they're very old school, and they're very conservative.

45:36

But, that I was bringing this up to ask you if that's a space that has been interesting to you lately because you I know you're being a little cryptic because you like to be stealth until you you go live, but not so I was trying to I'm trying to get something out of you. Yeah. I think it's a really interesting space. I would encourage people to look into it. I think that there is a lot that can be done there. I think there's dissatisfaction

But, that I was bringing this up to ask you if that's a space that has been interesting to you lately because you I know you're being a little cryptic because you like to be stealth until you you go live, but not so I was trying to I'm trying to get something out of you. Yeah. I think it's a really interesting space. I would encourage people to look into it. I think that there is a lot that can be done there. I think there's dissatisfaction

45:57

amongst everyone,

amongst everyone,

45:59

basically in that space.

basically in that space.

46:01

It's pretty universal. A lot of room for improvement.

It's pretty universal. A lot of room for improvement.

46:05

Cool. So that's that's one pattern for great ideas. So what are the what are the wealthy companies that people have that can be democratized

Cool. So that's that's one pattern for great ideas. So what are the what are the wealthy companies that people have that can be democratized

46:13

and,

and,

46:13

and other if if a few people have that desire and they've pushed out to that limit, other people would want it if you can make it accessible, cheaper, and and more available to them. That's a that's an amazing one. I think there's tons of great ideas there.

and other if if a few people have that desire and they've pushed out to that limit, other people would want it if you can make it accessible, cheaper, and and more available to them. That's a that's an amazing one. I think there's tons of great ideas there.

46:26

What's another what's another framework or or sort of pattern you've seen for great is.

What's another what's another framework or or sort of pattern you've seen for great is.

46:31

Yeah. So one that I think is is pretty interesting.

Yeah. So one that I think is is pretty interesting.

46:34

That's also I would put in, like, the tried and true bucket.

That's also I would put in, like, the tried and true bucket.

46:38

Is

Is

46:39

if you take something

if you take something

46:41

that

that

46:42

people

people

46:43

consistently do and they have to do and they feel like they have to do it, But it takes a lot of steps and or time,

consistently do and they have to do and they feel like they have to do it, But it takes a lot of steps and or time,

46:51

and you dramatically

and you dramatically

46:53

simplify it.

simplify it.

46:54

And you make it a lot faster to accomplish the same thing that they feel like they have to do.

And you make it a lot faster to accomplish the same thing that they feel like they have to do.

47:00

So some good examples of this would be,

So some good examples of this would be,

47:03

for example, booking online travel

for example, booking online travel

47:06

you know, it used to be so hard to do. You'd have to go to so many different sites. The kayak founders had the vision of let's just pull it all into kayak dot com. You go to one site. You see it all in one place. They they made it really easy. In the case you've sent this once, which was anytime there's somebody has fourteen tabs open to do this to do one task, that's a business opportunity. Is that right? That's a business opportunity. Yeah. I mean, just watch for if if you ever see that, people are doing a lot of research. There are, yeah, tons of tabs open. It's really arduous. That that's an opportunity.

you know, it used to be so hard to do. You'd have to go to so many different sites. The kayak founders had the vision of let's just pull it all into kayak dot com. You go to one site. You see it all in one place. They they made it really easy. In the case you've sent this once, which was anytime there's somebody has fourteen tabs open to do this to do one task, that's a business opportunity. Is that right? That's a business opportunity. Yeah. I mean, just watch for if if you ever see that, people are doing a lot of research. There are, yeah, tons of tabs open. It's really arduous. That that's an opportunity.

47:37

Another example of that that we we kind of found with him and hers and other telemedicine companies that we we've started

Another example of that that we we kind of found with him and hers and other telemedicine companies that we we've started

47:44

is going to the doctor's office

is going to the doctor's office

47:46

You know, people need to go to the doctor's office. Think of that process.

You know, people need to go to the doctor's office. Think of that process.

47:51

You're calling the doctor's office. You're scheduling an appointment. You're whipping out your calendar. You're putting it on your calendar. You're going to the waiting room. You're sitting there. You're getting prescribed something. You're going to Walgreens you're waiting in line for half an hour going around the store,

You're calling the doctor's office. You're scheduling an appointment. You're whipping out your calendar. You're putting it on your calendar. You're going to the waiting room. You're sitting there. You're getting prescribed something. You're going to Walgreens you're waiting in line for half an hour going around the store,

48:05

going home. You know, this is a big process.

going home. You know, this is a big process.

48:07

And as a result, the next generation kind of doesn't even really engage with the health care system. You know, close to nine out of ten of them don't even know who their doctor is, and or they haven't even gone.

And as a result, the next generation kind of doesn't even really engage with the health care system. You know, close to nine out of ten of them don't even know who their doctor is, and or they haven't even gone.

48:18

So, you know, telemedicine takes that process and makes it a five minute process where you can do it on your phone and go through and get treated for whatever condition that you have.

So, you know, telemedicine takes that process and makes it a five minute process where you can do it on your phone and go through and get treated for whatever condition that you have.

48:28

I think another interesting example of that is selling your house.

I think another interesting example of that is selling your house.

48:32

People need to sell their house. Right? And it's a really hard long arduous process

People need to sell their house. Right? And it's a really hard long arduous process

48:39

with a lot of anxiety and things like that. Open Door came along and said, hey, come to this website,

with a lot of anxiety and things like that. Open Door came along and said, hey, come to this website,

48:46

tell us what your house is, and we'll make you an offer to buy it. And you can sell it right now.

tell us what your house is, and we'll make you an offer to buy it. And you can sell it right now.

48:51

And, you know, not everyone has to do that, and not everyone does do that, but enough people do it that it created a really, really big company that's doing really well.

And, you know, not everyone has to do that, and not everyone does do that, but enough people do it that it created a really, really big company that's doing really well.

49:01

So those are some some interesting And you guys are doing the now with Open Store, right? Which I gotta say is it is a truly great idea? I remember when first credit. I texted my friend, and I said,

So those are some some interesting And you guys are doing the now with Open Store, right? Which I gotta say is it is a truly great idea? I remember when first credit. I texted my friend, and I said,

49:12

I I didn't even say how great this idea is. I just only said, why are we not doing this? Because I was like, this is that good of an idea selling your company selling your e commerce store in this case,

I I didn't even say how great this idea is. I just only said, why are we not doing this? Because I was like, this is that good of an idea selling your company selling your e commerce store in this case,

49:23

takes so much effort, so much work. And the data is all there. Right? Like, I'm assuming I don't actually know how it works. I'm assuming it's sort of like Clearbank or whatever where you can plug into their Shopify. You can plug into their Facebook ad account. You can plug into their bank or whatever. And and with those, you know, three sources of data, you can get a, basically, like, a a health score and a value of of this of this of the shop and make them an offer, and they don't have to go most of them don't even know. Like, at least with the house, it's painful, but you kinda know what you're supposed to do to do it. At nine out of ten friends I talked to who have an e commerce store. Don't even know what you would do if you wanted to sell. I don't even know what who's door do I knock on? What do I need to have ready? And so therefore, I just I'm just not gonna do it. And, and it's like the open door thing where not everybody's gonna do this, but Sure. If open door captures, I'm I don't know what they modeled out, but, you know, one percent, three percent, five percent of all house sales, like multi billion dollar company. Same thing for for open source. So I'm super super bullish to the point where I was like, why that? What am I doing with my life that I'm not doing this idea? This makes total sense.

takes so much effort, so much work. And the data is all there. Right? Like, I'm assuming I don't actually know how it works. I'm assuming it's sort of like Clearbank or whatever where you can plug into their Shopify. You can plug into their Facebook ad account. You can plug into their bank or whatever. And and with those, you know, three sources of data, you can get a, basically, like, a a health score and a value of of this of this of the shop and make them an offer, and they don't have to go most of them don't even know. Like, at least with the house, it's painful, but you kinda know what you're supposed to do to do it. At nine out of ten friends I talked to who have an e commerce store. Don't even know what you would do if you wanted to sell. I don't even know what who's door do I knock on? What do I need to have ready? And so therefore, I just I'm just not gonna do it. And, and it's like the open door thing where not everybody's gonna do this, but Sure. If open door captures, I'm I don't know what they modeled out, but, you know, one percent, three percent, five percent of all house sales, like multi billion dollar company. Same thing for for open source. So I'm super super bullish to the point where I was like, why that? What am I doing with my life that I'm not doing this idea? This makes total sense.

50:24

Oh, man. Well, thanks for saying that. Don't worry. I'm not gonna copy you, but, Keith and I are having a ton of fun ton of fun building out that company, here in Miami. That's been a blast

Oh, man. Well, thanks for saying that. Don't worry. I'm not gonna copy you, but, Keith and I are having a ton of fun ton of fun building out that company, here in Miami. That's been a blast

50:34

building a a great team, a huge team. And,

building a a great team, a huge team. And,

50:37

yeah, it solves this pain point in a market where it's really hard to sell your company.

yeah, it solves this pain point in a market where it's really hard to sell your company.

50:42

And all you need to do is come to a website. We give you a price, and you can sell your company. And it's it's really interesting. We have an amazing data science team or hiring really aggressively. If anyone wants to join, it's,

And all you need to do is come to a website. We give you a price, and you can sell your company. And it's it's really interesting. We have an amazing data science team or hiring really aggressively. If anyone wants to join, it's,

50:54

you know, anyone who joins that team, it's such an unbelievable

you know, anyone who joins that team, it's such an unbelievable

50:57

team. I think it's gonna create this

team. I think it's gonna create this

51:00

almost

almost

51:01

Miami mafia, so to speak, around here, of amazing people. I think it's a an exceptional opportunity and scaling really quickly.

Miami mafia, so to speak, around here, of amazing people. I think it's a an exceptional opportunity and scaling really quickly.

51:09

That's been a lot of fun. Thanks for saying that. And another pod, you said something like you have this list of ideas, but every once in a while, you'll meet someone who's so amazing that you say to them, Well, what's your idea?

That's been a lot of fun. Thanks for saying that. And another pod, you said something like you have this list of ideas, but every once in a while, you'll meet someone who's so amazing that you say to them, Well, what's your idea?

51:19

And how can we just tell me what your idea is, and we'll partner with you. Or, you know, you said something like that. I don't know if it was exactly that. What attributes

And how can we just tell me what your idea is, and we'll partner with you. Or, you know, you said something like that. I don't know if it was exactly that. What attributes

51:27

would a person have to have in order for you to say that to them?

would a person have to have in order for you to say that to them?

51:31

Yeah. So we're

Yeah. So we're

51:33

we're open you know, the ideas don't necessarily have to come from us. We're totally open if people want to bring their ideas and co phone companies with us.

we're open you know, the ideas don't necessarily have to come from us. We're totally open if people want to bring their ideas and co phone companies with us.

51:43

We just kind of ask that they'd be baked off in a process and that the data wins. We're just such big believers in this distribution over ideas thing. That as long as we if we test their idea and the distribution's great. Fantastic. Let's go. Let's do it together. That sounds great. But otherwise, know, we just ask that we do that kind of testing process that we like to do.

We just kind of ask that they'd be baked off in a process and that the data wins. We're just such big believers in this distribution over ideas thing. That as long as we if we test their idea and the distribution's great. Fantastic. Let's go. Let's do it together. That sounds great. But otherwise, know, we just ask that we do that kind of testing process that we like to do.

52:04

But some of the attributes that we look for

But some of the attributes that we look for

52:06

you know, we really like people that are just tenacious. They just wake up in the morning. They wanna play offense.

you know, we really like people that are just tenacious. They just wake up in the morning. They wanna play offense.

52:13

They have three things they wanna get done by the end of the day, and they get them done. And they knock down walls,

They have three things they wanna get done by the end of the day, and they get them done. And they knock down walls,

52:19

and they're creative. They have a lot of raw intelligence.

and they're creative. They have a lot of raw intelligence.

52:22

They inspire other people. They can hire their charismatic.

They inspire other people. They can hire their charismatic.

52:27

You know, it depends on the idea. Right? Like, some ideas that are more technically oriented. Obviously, you're looking for a slightly different profile,

You know, it depends on the idea. Right? Like, some ideas that are more technically oriented. Obviously, you're looking for a slightly different profile,

52:36

versus ideas that are maybe more you know, sales or product oriented. So we are a little bit

versus ideas that are maybe more you know, sales or product oriented. So we are a little bit

52:42

founder

founder

52:43

idea of our product fit as well. We do consider that, but

idea of our product fit as well. We do consider that, but

52:49

Yeah. Those are some of the attributes that we look for in people, but sometimes you meet someone and there's just a really strong connection

Yeah. Those are some of the attributes that we look for in people, but sometimes you meet someone and there's just a really strong connection

52:55

you know, you have these high bandwidth conversations. You're feeling great about everything, and we'll just say, you know, we just wanna work with you.

you know, you have these high bandwidth conversations. You're feeling great about everything, and we'll just say, you know, we just wanna work with you.

53:03

We're totally agnostic to the idea and come in and join us. Let's look at ten, twelve, fifteen ideas over the next three to nine months. If we find something we love, great. Let's start a company. If we don't find anything, no harm, no foul, Hopefully, you know, you met some cool people and we've had fun along the way. And, you know, you're on to your next thing, and we'd love to be as supportive as we can. I the one of the biggest differences between Sean and I, although we're very similar in a lot of put ways, he tends to do many different things, and he he likes doing many things at one time.

We're totally agnostic to the idea and come in and join us. Let's look at ten, twelve, fifteen ideas over the next three to nine months. If we find something we love, great. Let's start a company. If we don't find anything, no harm, no foul, Hopefully, you know, you met some cool people and we've had fun along the way. And, you know, you're on to your next thing, and we'd love to be as supportive as we can. I the one of the biggest differences between Sean and I, although we're very similar in a lot of put ways, he tends to do many different things, and he he likes doing many things at one time.

53:36

I am always teasing him and I and jokingly criticizing him. I'm like, only do one thing. If you only do one thing, you're gonna be you're gonna succeed more. And he's like, well, no. But I I like this, and it's working. And he's right. It is working for him.

I am always teasing him and I and jokingly criticizing him. I'm like, only do one thing. If you only do one thing, you're gonna be you're gonna succeed more. And he's like, well, no. But I I like this, and it's working. And he's right. It is working for him.

53:50

You have both started one company or, you know, Milo was like your baby or I imagine when you're running that, that was, like, your only focus.

You have both started one company or, you know, Milo was like your baby or I imagine when you're running that, that was, like, your only focus.

53:57

Now your focus is on launching ten companies a year. Although, you know, you hire people to help you, make it happen. So I guess your baby's kinda atomic, but

Now your focus is on launching ten companies a year. Although, you know, you hire people to help you, make it happen. So I guess your baby's kinda atomic, but

54:06

Do you think that

Do you think that

54:08

starting multiple companies

starting multiple companies

54:11

is gonna be a bigger wealth creator for you than if had you just done kind of one major thing and you only focus on one, let's say, a software company or something like that.

is gonna be a bigger wealth creator for you than if had you just done kind of one major thing and you only focus on one, let's say, a software company or something like that.

54:23

It's an interesting question. So before I answer that, just one comment on that, I have noticed a pattern, which is that The smartest people I've met in the world fall into one of those two camps.

It's an interesting question. So before I answer that, just one comment on that, I have noticed a pattern, which is that The smartest people I've met in the world fall into one of those two camps.

54:35

They either wanna be, like, singularly focused on one thing almost to a fault where they are so focused on it, and they just absolutely have to crush it. And that's one archetype of success. And it works really well. And some people are super successful that are that way. There are other people, and I put myself more in the camp of, like, I just get energy from working on a lot of things with a lot of different people. It's how my brain works. I have to work across a lot of different things.

They either wanna be, like, singularly focused on one thing almost to a fault where they are so focused on it, and they just absolutely have to crush it. And that's one archetype of success. And it works really well. And some people are super successful that are that way. There are other people, and I put myself more in the camp of, like, I just get energy from working on a lot of things with a lot of different people. It's how my brain works. I have to work across a lot of different things.

55:02

And that's also, you know, part of it is what you enjoy and what makes you happy. And

And that's also, you know, part of it is what you enjoy and what makes you happy. And

55:07

that's kind of what I enjoy and what makes me happy. It's inventing. It's the early stages. It's what could come next.

that's kind of what I enjoy and what makes me happy. It's inventing. It's the early stages. It's what could come next.

55:14

So when I thought about doing atomic, it actually wasn't

So when I thought about doing atomic, it actually wasn't

55:18

believe it or not

believe it or not

55:19

a wealth building

a wealth building

55:21

exercise. It was really,

exercise. It was really,

55:23

you know, one, is it possible to build a company that builds companies. Nobody's really figured out how to do that at scale before.

you know, one, is it possible to build a company that builds companies. Nobody's really figured out how to do that at scale before.

55:30

Two, how could you do that? Three, is that the most interesting and impactful problem in the world to work on. I believe that it was, at that time.

Two, how could you do that? Three, is that the most interesting and impactful problem in the world to work on. I believe that it was, at that time.

55:39

And, you know, would it be fun and what I get to work with really great people on really great problems. And I thought the answer to those questions was yes. So I decided to do it. It can be very lucrative.

And, you know, would it be fun and what I get to work with really great people on really great problems. And I thought the answer to those questions was yes. So I decided to do it. It can be very lucrative.

55:50

I do think

I do think

55:51

Probably, you can do better by just focusing on one. Like, if you had one thing that was gonna go to the moon, then you can probably do financially

Probably, you can do better by just focusing on one. Like, if you had one thing that was gonna go to the moon, then you can probably do financially

56:02

better just going all in on that thing,

better just going all in on that thing,

56:05

at least in the short term.

at least in the short term.

56:07

I don't know in the long term because in the long term, if you build a company that builds companies,

I don't know in the long term because in the long term, if you build a company that builds companies,

56:12

what's the value of that? I don't know. It's like it's like asking a genie for unlimited wishes.

what's the value of that? I don't know. It's like it's like asking a genie for unlimited wishes.

56:17

Right.

Right.

56:18

So but I that's not really you know, what drove the decision making or kinda how I think about it? Well, you said it's not been done before. I mean,

So but I that's not really you know, what drove the decision making or kinda how I think about it? Well, you said it's not been done before. I mean,

56:26

maybe I don't know where they were at the time. You know, Rocket Internet for the listeners, there's a company called Rocket internet based in Germany started by these three crazy crazy brothers. And their whole stick was basically copy Silicon Valley companies, but do it in Africa, Asia, and and other places where that thing didn't exist. So Airbnb in

maybe I don't know where they were at the time. You know, Rocket Internet for the listeners, there's a company called Rocket internet based in Germany started by these three crazy crazy brothers. And their whole stick was basically copy Silicon Valley companies, but do it in Africa, Asia, and and other places where that thing didn't exist. So Airbnb in

56:45

Europe, or Amazon in Thailand, or whatever it is. Zapos in,

Europe, or Amazon in Thailand, or whatever it is. Zapos in,

56:50

Nigeria.

Nigeria.

56:52

And they

And they

56:53

created a few companies that were fucking huge.

created a few companies that were fucking huge.

56:56

And they did it. So the but they the whole thing was copying to the point of they would have this chief scientist who would basically study, let's say they're copying Pinterest

And they did it. So the but they the whole thing was copying to the point of they would have this chief scientist who would basically study, let's say they're copying Pinterest

57:05

he would send out an email to the Pinterest of Africa and the Pinterest of Germany and be like Pinterest changed their button size on the top right from this to this. Do it.

he would send out an email to the Pinterest of Africa and the Pinterest of Germany and be like Pinterest changed their button size on the top right from this to this. Do it.

57:14

Do have you ever thought what do you think about those guys? And have you ever thought of doing that strategy where instead of invention, let's copy.

Do have you ever thought what do you think about those guys? And have you ever thought of doing that strategy where instead of invention, let's copy.

57:22

Yeah.

Yeah.

57:24

So

So

57:26

it's just not our style. It's a very different style.

it's just not our style. It's a very different style.

57:29

First of all,

First of all,

57:31

I think the kind of talent you can work with that you can motivate to just copy other people's ideas, I think, is very different.

I think the kind of talent you can work with that you can motivate to just copy other people's ideas, I think, is very different.

57:38

Then the kinds of people were able to attract that atomic and work on our companies. You know, it's more of a mercenary,

Then the kinds of people were able to attract that atomic and work on our companies. You know, it's more of a mercenary,

57:44

probably than a mission driven approach.

probably than a mission driven approach.

57:46

We pride ourselves in everything that we've done has been innovative.

We pride ourselves in everything that we've done has been innovative.

57:50

It's been original. We haven't been copying other people's ideas. It's not in our ethos to do that. So

It's been original. We haven't been copying other people's ideas. It's not in our ethos to do that. So

57:56

and the processes and how it operates is very different, and the culture is very different, fundamentally as a result. So I do think you need to pick one of those two things.

and the processes and how it operates is very different, and the culture is very different, fundamentally as a result. So I do think you need to pick one of those two things.

58:06

Would it be easier to build something that just copies other people's ideas?

Would it be easier to build something that just copies other people's ideas?

58:11

Yeah. It would be easier, but it probably wouldn't work as well because I don't think just copying other people's ideas is as valuable. And I don't think that it would work as well anyway, but it's also just far less interesting to me.

Yeah. It would be easier, but it probably wouldn't work as well because I don't think just copying other people's ideas is as valuable. And I don't think that it would work as well anyway, but it's also just far less interesting to me.

58:25

It seems like the ideas that worked well for them were the ones where

It seems like the ideas that worked well for them were the ones where

58:29

There was, like, a local network effect in the US that hadn't gone to Europe yet, and they did it in Europe before the US company could go to Europe.

There was, like, a local network effect in the US that hadn't gone to Europe yet, and they did it in Europe before the US company could go to Europe.

58:38

But there were a lot of companies that they copied that

But there were a lot of companies that they copied that

58:41

they had a hard time because they kind of installed someone who Yeah. There's just hired guns. They would just hire bankers and say, just spend more money than this other company. Exactly. Yeah. And,

they had a hard time because they kind of installed someone who Yeah. There's just hired guns. They would just hire bankers and say, just spend more money than this other company. Exactly. Yeah. And,

58:51

you know, missionaries often outlast

you know, missionaries often outlast

58:54

mercenaries in you have to longevity is one of the key factors you need to to to to win. Right. Let let's talk about work. To some extent, but it's just different. Let's do a couple of minutes real quick on crypto. So on a scale of one to chugging the Kool Aid, where are you at with crypto?

mercenaries in you have to longevity is one of the key factors you need to to to to win. Right. Let let's talk about work. To some extent, but it's just different. Let's do a couple of minutes real quick on crypto. So on a scale of one to chugging the Kool Aid, where are you at with crypto?

59:10

Just kind of personally investing in it. And then what do you think is exciting or or completely overrated? I don't know what your take is. It's sort of it's pretty polarizing. So people are usually

Just kind of personally investing in it. And then what do you think is exciting or or completely overrated? I don't know what your take is. It's sort of it's pretty polarizing. So people are usually

59:19

very into it or, you know, think it's toxic and and, Ponzi scheme. So, like, where where do you stand?

very into it or, you know, think it's toxic and and, Ponzi scheme. So, like, where where do you stand?

59:27

Yeah. Good question.

Yeah. Good question.

59:28

I mean, I think crypto is real and it's here to stay.

I mean, I think crypto is real and it's here to stay.

59:33

I think the question is,

I think the question is,

59:35

what are the fundamental, like, real innovations in crypto, the things that are gonna be around, and what are the things that are there's a lot of manipulation.

what are the fundamental, like, real innovations in crypto, the things that are gonna be around, and what are the things that are there's a lot of manipulation.

59:44

There's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes people don't know about on these chat groups and apps and, like, forums

There's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes people don't know about on these chat groups and apps and, like, forums

59:51

of, like, pump and dump things.

of, like, pump and dump things.

59:53

Really bad. You know, this is stuff that people, like, in a normal market would probably go to jail for, like, seriously.

Really bad. You know, this is stuff that people, like, in a normal market would probably go to jail for, like, seriously.

01:00:00

This is happening

This is happening

01:00:02

somewhat regularly in this market. So it's a little concerning to, like, the average person to know what is and what isn't real.

somewhat regularly in this market. So it's a little concerning to, like, the average person to know what is and what isn't real.

01:00:11

And that's my big concern with it is, you know, there's a lot of people rushing into it. There's a lot of enthusiasm.

And that's my big concern with it is, you know, there's a lot of people rushing into it. There's a lot of enthusiasm.

01:00:16

It is real, but knowing what is real and what isn't real, I think is is really difficult.

It is real, but knowing what is real and what isn't real, I think is is really difficult.

01:00:22

So what's real to you? What do you think is real?

So what's real to you? What do you think is real?

01:00:26

So to me,

So to me,

01:00:28

you know, I think

you know, I think

01:00:30

one indicator to look for is where are developers

one indicator to look for is where are developers

01:00:34

signing up?

signing up?

01:00:35

This is also true with companies, by the way. Whenever there's platforms that are built, and this is true for, like, enterprise companies or, like, app stores,

This is also true with companies, by the way. Whenever there's platforms that are built, and this is true for, like, enterprise companies or, like, app stores,

01:00:43

Where do the developers go? Where the developers go usually works and is a good place to invest?

Where do the developers go? Where the developers go usually works and is a good place to invest?

01:00:49

And I think that's true of crypto as well.

And I think that's true of crypto as well.

01:00:52

So on that thesis, I think Ethereum is a great place to go. Salon seems to have a lot of developer interests. I think there's a lot of other places.

So on that thesis, I think Ethereum is a great place to go. Salon seems to have a lot of developer interests. I think there's a lot of other places.

01:01:01

You know, one that I was kind of early involved in and helped get off the ground.

You know, one that I was kind of early involved in and helped get off the ground.

01:01:08

Was

Was

01:01:09

one called Tara and Luna that just launched a new MainNet

one called Tara and Luna that just launched a new MainNet

01:01:12

that had, like, fifty to a hundred apps just launched that are super interesting

that had, like, fifty to a hundred apps just launched that are super interesting

01:01:18

They're very interesting to me because they're solving a different problem than a lot of other people in crypto are solving fundamentals. What does that mean? You but I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

They're very interesting to me because they're solving a different problem than a lot of other people in crypto are solving fundamentals. What does that mean? You but I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

01:01:30

So

So

01:01:31

a lot of, you know, if you were to kind of knock crypto, You were like a macro economist and you were like, wow, what does the world look like ten or twenty years from now if this really catches on? The big critique would be

a lot of, you know, if you were to kind of knock crypto, You were like a macro economist and you were like, wow, what does the world look like ten or twenty years from now if this really catches on? The big critique would be

01:01:42

Well, if this is digital gold, imagine what would have happened to the world if everyone just held gold and nobody put money into a bank.

Well, if this is digital gold, imagine what would have happened to the world if everyone just held gold and nobody put money into a bank.

01:01:50

There'd be no jobs. There'd be no economy because people put money into the bank. The bank lends out money to companies and to people. That money gets spent. It creates jobs,

There'd be no jobs. There'd be no economy because people put money into the bank. The bank lends out money to companies and to people. That money gets spent. It creates jobs,

01:02:00

those people spend the money and it goes through the economy and it just has this domino effect.

those people spend the money and it goes through the economy and it just has this domino effect.

01:02:05

That's really important for the whole, like, system to work.

That's really important for the whole, like, system to work.

01:02:09

In crypto, someone puts it in crypto and it stops, and it doesn't keep traveling through the economy. It's not a productive asset. So you basically take a productive asset and you make it unproductive.

In crypto, someone puts it in crypto and it stops, and it doesn't keep traveling through the economy. It's not a productive asset. So you basically take a productive asset and you make it unproductive.

01:02:20

And I feel like for, like, decentralized crypto to work and scale in the world, that's gotta be fixed. Somehow.

And I feel like for, like, decentralized crypto to work and scale in the world, that's gotta be fixed. Somehow.

01:02:27

And the Tara and Luna people are very, very attuned to this problem. So instead of just focusing on purely technical things,

And the Tara and Luna people are very, very attuned to this problem. So instead of just focusing on purely technical things,

01:02:35

like, you know, NFTs or, you know, new apps they can build or APIs

like, you know, NFTs or, you know, new apps they can build or APIs

01:02:39

or smart contracts or things like that. They're actually thinking about you know, how can you lend crypto? How can you borrow against crypto?

or smart contracts or things like that. They're actually thinking about you know, how can you lend crypto? How can you borrow against crypto?

01:02:48

How can you invest in stocks? You can invest in stocks directly with their stable coins. You can earn twenty percent interest with anchor. You can borrow against that, and then there's a way to earn thirty percent interest. And there's this whole ecosystem

How can you invest in stocks? You can invest in stocks directly with their stable coins. You can earn twenty percent interest with anchor. You can borrow against that, and then there's a way to earn thirty percent interest. And there's this whole ecosystem

01:03:02

of basically ways to make crypto productive in a decentralized

of basically ways to make crypto productive in a decentralized

01:03:07

way

way

01:03:07

within the crypto ecosystem

within the crypto ecosystem

01:03:09

that I think is really interesting and I don't know if they're really, really good, really smart team. I don't know of too many other people that are working on that.

that I think is really interesting and I don't know if they're really, really good, really smart team. I don't know of too many other people that are working on that.

01:03:19

And then the other one that I would call out,

And then the other one that I would call out,

01:03:21

that I I was an early investor in as a project that hasn't launched yet, but if there's anyone out there who knows how to mine,

that I I was an early investor in as a project that hasn't launched yet, but if there's anyone out there who knows how to mine,

01:03:28

I would say mine's

I would say mine's

01:03:30

cryptocurrency.

cryptocurrency.

01:03:31

It's called Ironfish,

It's called Ironfish,

01:03:33

and it's basically this genius

and it's basically this genius

01:03:36

I can vouch for her. She's a genius,

I can vouch for her. She's a genius,

01:03:39

and she basically created

and she basically created

01:03:42

what I what I think is the first true cache on the internet. So the whole idea of crypto was it's gonna be cache on the internet.

what I what I think is the first true cache on the internet. So the whole idea of crypto was it's gonna be cache on the internet.

01:03:51

It's untraceable.

It's untraceable.

01:03:52

I give this to you. Nobody knows. Just like with cash.

I give this to you. Nobody knows. Just like with cash.

01:03:56

In reality, what happens with Bitcoin, we make a transaction,

In reality, what happens with Bitcoin, we make a transaction,

01:03:59

and it's public forever. Literally, this this record is gonna be public and replicated across the internet forever, and everybody's gonna know about it. Now people realize that,

and it's public forever. Literally, this this record is gonna be public and replicated across the internet forever, and everybody's gonna know about it. Now people realize that,

01:04:10

and it's an issue

and it's an issue

01:04:11

So you had, you know, coins like Zcash and monero that were created, but it turns out

So you had, you know, coins like Zcash and monero that were created, but it turns out

01:04:16

those actually can be decrypted, and you can figure out where all of that went. So she's the first person that really figured out how to make

those actually can be decrypted, and you can figure out where all of that went. So she's the first person that really figured out how to make

01:04:25

truly anonymized

truly anonymized

01:04:27

crypto.

crypto.

01:04:28

And it's called Ironfish. I think it's a really exciting project. I don't think it's tradable on exchanges, but I think it's minable, and it'll probably be tradable at some point. So those are some early ones that I think are exciting worth,

And it's called Ironfish. I think it's a really exciting project. I don't think it's tradable on exchanges, but I think it's minable, and it'll probably be tradable at some point. So those are some early ones that I think are exciting worth,

01:04:41

worth kind of looking into.

worth kind of looking into.

01:04:43

Love it. And,

Love it. And,

01:04:45

and do you use, like, defy, are you, like, an actual, like, participant or user of defy?

and do you use, like, defy, are you, like, an actual, like, participant or user of defy?

01:04:54

I don't use d five too much per se. I'm more I do actually a little bit, but I'm more of kind of like I said, and forget it by and hold long term in patient.

I don't use d five too much per se. I'm more I do actually a little bit, but I'm more of kind of like I said, and forget it by and hold long term in patient.

01:05:04

Type of a person. So I'm not actively doing I, you know, I know there's a lot of stuff out there going on, like, yield farming and things like that that I'm not as attuned to.

Type of a person. So I'm not actively doing I, you know, I know there's a lot of stuff out there going on, like, yield farming and things like that that I'm not as attuned to.

01:05:15

But if I had more time, I'd be interested in learning more about it. Yeah. Kinda, that's why I wanted to leave it with, which was If you weren't doing all the shit you're doing now,

But if I had more time, I'd be interested in learning more about it. Yeah. Kinda, that's why I wanted to leave it with, which was If you weren't doing all the shit you're doing now,

01:05:24

and I took away kind of the reputation of the network. So, like, you know, you're you're still you. You're still, you know, sharp. But you're twenty one twenty two, twenty three years old. Where do you think you would go work? What would you work on?

and I took away kind of the reputation of the network. So, like, you know, you're you're still you. You're still, you know, sharp. But you're twenty one twenty two, twenty three years old. Where do you think you would go work? What would you work on?

01:05:37

That's an interesting question. I might consider working on

That's an interesting question. I might consider working on

01:05:46

you know, web three and crypto specifically

you know, web three and crypto specifically

01:05:49

figuring out how to use crypto to build new networks

figuring out how to use crypto to build new networks

01:05:54

that can be built that are totally decentralized,

that can be built that are totally decentralized,

01:05:58

like social networks or or other types of networks. They could be marketplaces.

like social networks or or other types of networks. They could be marketplaces.

01:06:03

They could be social networks, but I think what the internet taught us is networks.

They could be social networks, but I think what the internet taught us is networks.

01:06:08

Are what's valuable at the core.

Are what's valuable at the core.

01:06:12

And I don't think web three is I think it's still early. There's, like, ten million sort of users out there of this stuff.

And I don't think web three is I think it's still early. There's, like, ten million sort of users out there of this stuff.

01:06:19

There's, you know, four and a half billion people on the internet. So it still has a long ways to grow. If you can build some of these early networks with network effects,

There's, you know, four and a half billion people on the internet. So it still has a long ways to grow. If you can build some of these early networks with network effects,

01:06:28

you can probably build things that are really valuable. And I know there are some people that are working on it, but they're probably still some really interesting opportunities out there.

you can probably build things that are really valuable. And I know there are some people that are working on it, but they're probably still some really interesting opportunities out there.

01:06:38

Well, this is this is this is awesome, man. I I mean, I could talk to you for another few hours. I've I've got so many more questions. Hopefully, you can come back and do this again.

Well, this is this is this is awesome, man. I I mean, I could talk to you for another few hours. I've I've got so many more questions. Hopefully, you can come back and do this again.

01:06:46

Of course. We'd love to. Thanks for having me. This this is badass.

Of course. We'd love to. Thanks for having me. This this is badass.

01:06:51

I pay attention to everything you guys do. Well, on atomic, I I'm always looking at your job page to see, like, what are they? Who are they hiring for now? What are they gonna launch now? And trying to figure out if I could kinda, like, reverse engineer and see everything. And so And you have good taste, dude. You,

I pay attention to everything you guys do. Well, on atomic, I I'm always looking at your job page to see, like, what are they? Who are they hiring for now? What are they gonna launch now? And trying to figure out if I could kinda, like, reverse engineer and see everything. And so And you have good taste, dude. You,

01:07:05

you you invested in or co incubated a a company with my cousin. Don't know if you know that. Rohan. Oh, which which one? Rohan Puri. He, he started to state Pilato.

you you invested in or co incubated a a company with my cousin. Don't know if you know that. Rohan. Oh, which which one? Rohan Puri. He, he started to state Pilato.

01:07:15

So that's my company. It's great. Gerhan's awesome. Yeah. We love Rohan. Yeah. He's super smart. Yeah. He's great.

So that's my company. It's great. Gerhan's awesome. Yeah. We love Rohan. Yeah. He's super smart. Yeah. He's great.

01:07:21

Well, thank you for doing this. This is badass.

Well, thank you for doing this. This is badass.

01:07:25

This is awesome. Of course. Thanks for having me. We're excited to publish this. We're excited make this happen. It was awesome talking to you. If if people wanna get more, where do they follow you, find you,

This is awesome. Of course. Thanks for having me. We're excited to publish this. We're excited make this happen. It was awesome talking to you. If if people wanna get more, where do they follow you, find you,

01:07:33

you know, subscribe to your newsletter,

you know, subscribe to your newsletter,

01:07:35

by your only fans. What do you want them to do?

by your only fans. What do you want them to do?

01:07:38

Not on only fans.

Not on only fans.

01:07:40

But you can just follow yes. You can follow me on Twitter

But you can just follow yes. You can follow me on Twitter

01:07:44

on just Jack at Jack Abraham or, you know, you can find me on LinkedIn

on just Jack at Jack Abraham or, you know, you can find me on LinkedIn

01:07:49

and or,

and or,

01:07:51

you know, we're just at atomic dot v c is our website. You can actually apply on our website for a program we have called the future founders program where we'd love to co found companies. With people. We love co founding companies with diverse people of all sorts of backgrounds.

you know, we're just at atomic dot v c is our website. You can actually apply on our website for a program we have called the future founders program where we'd love to co found companies. With people. We love co founding companies with diverse people of all sorts of backgrounds.

01:08:06

We're agnostic to location. It can be from anywhere.

We're agnostic to location. It can be from anywhere.

01:08:09

And we wanna start a lot of great companies, and it'd be an honor to start, you know, maybe we can start

And we wanna start a lot of great companies, and it'd be an honor to start, you know, maybe we can start

01:08:14

a company with someone listening to this. That would be great. This is awesome. Thank you very much.

a company with someone listening to this. That would be great. This is awesome. Thank you very much.

01:08:20

We'll, we'll be sharing a bunch of your links because I'm so excited that you came on here.

We'll, we'll be sharing a bunch of your links because I'm so excited that you came on here.

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