00:00

Alright, look, Sean here, I don't wanna toot my own horn, but

Alright, look, Sean here, I don't wanna toot my own horn, but

00:04

beep beep.

beep beep.

00:05

This is

This is

00:07

this is a This is an interview that somebody else did with me. David Pearl, who you might know online as the writing guy. He, invited me out to San Francisco and We did an interview for his podcast called How I write. And my episode is doing so well.

this is a This is an interview that somebody else did with me. David Pearl, who you might know online as the writing guy. He, invited me out to San Francisco and We did an interview for his podcast called How I write. And my episode is doing so well.

00:23

So well. It is I have this little Chrome extension. This thing is doing eleven x. Eleven x means it is eleven times higher performing than his normal videos. Something good is in this video that it's doing eleven x on YouTube.

So well. It is I have this little Chrome extension. This thing is doing eleven x. Eleven x means it is eleven times higher performing than his normal videos. Something good is in this video that it's doing eleven x on YouTube.

00:34

And it's all about storytelling. It's all about writing.

And it's all about storytelling. It's all about writing.

00:37

It's stuff that a lot of people ask me about, but I'd never have taken the time to sit down and talk about it. Well, David got me to sit down and tell you everything that I know about this stuff.

It's stuff that a lot of people ask me about, but I'd never have taken the time to sit down and talk about it. Well, David got me to sit down and tell you everything that I know about this stuff.

00:47

I hope you like it. I was a little sick during the interview, but it was my Michael Jordan flu game. I came I came prepared I brought the heat.

I hope you like it. I was a little sick during the interview, but it was my Michael Jordan flu game. I came I came prepared I brought the heat.

00:54

I'm really hyping this up, and it's because I'm excited about it. I'm really proud of this interview. It's doing really well. A lot of people are messaging me we want you asked David, hey. Can we run this on our feed? You know, we took the took the episode from him. We're gonna run it on our feed. It's basically interview where he's the interviewer and I'm the guest. Talking about storytelling

I'm really hyping this up, and it's because I'm excited about it. I'm really proud of this interview. It's doing really well. A lot of people are messaging me we want you asked David, hey. Can we run this on our feed? You know, we took the took the episode from him. We're gonna run it on our feed. It's basically interview where he's the interviewer and I'm the guest. Talking about storytelling

01:10

and writing. So if you like those two things, you're gonna like this episode. Alright. Enjoy this episode with me.

and writing. So if you like those two things, you're gonna like this episode. Alright. Enjoy this episode with me.

01:25

Story is a five second moment of change. Whoa, what does that mean? You wanna work backwards from the emotion. The only things people will share is things that are l o l, WTF,

Story is a five second moment of change. Whoa, what does that mean? You wanna work backwards from the emotion. The only things people will share is things that are l o l, WTF,

01:34

OMG.

OMG.

01:35

Wait. Hold on here. South the podcast. So, like, what should I do next time I sit down to write? The real great writers I believe are great at framing their ideas. Oh, interesting. So, Mr. Steve Bartlett Dave Chapel Hassan Minaj. Those are the people I try to learn from. You know, I could teach a thirty master class.

Wait. Hold on here. South the podcast. So, like, what should I do next time I sit down to write? The real great writers I believe are great at framing their ideas. Oh, interesting. So, Mr. Steve Bartlett Dave Chapel Hassan Minaj. Those are the people I try to learn from. You know, I could teach a thirty master class.

01:51

It's just this.

It's just this.

01:55

Sean Prairie is one of those guys that I

Sean Prairie is one of those guys that I

01:58

really wanted to learn from. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to tell better stories by listening to good storytellers, but Sean has really deconstructed the storytelling process. And you hear people saying all the time, oh, storytelling's really important. You should get really good at it. But there's not a lot of people who come in with concrete

really wanted to learn from. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to tell better stories by listening to good storytellers, but Sean has really deconstructed the storytelling process. And you hear people saying all the time, oh, storytelling's really important. You should get really good at it. But there's not a lot of people who come in with concrete

02:15

clear frameworks like he does. So this is a masterclass on storytelling.

clear frameworks like he does. So this is a masterclass on storytelling.

02:20

Come on, and it's time to roll.

Come on, and it's time to roll.

02:22

I said this to you when we

I said this to you when we

02:24

for shook hands, but this podcast

for shook hands, but this podcast

02:27

was probably the biggest increase in terms of how much I've admired a guest.

was probably the biggest increase in terms of how much I've admired a guest.

02:32

And how much that's grown through the prep process. And so I just wanna compliment you on that.

And how much that's grown through the prep process. And so I just wanna compliment you on that.

02:37

And in particular, there's a lot of things that you do really well in your writing that I'm not good at.

And in particular, there's a lot of things that you do really well in your writing that I'm not good at.

02:42

And

And

02:44

this is one of those episodes where I just have a bunch of questions, and I'm here to make by writing way better. And the place I wanna start is storytelling.

this is one of those episodes where I just have a bunch of questions, and I'm here to make by writing way better. And the place I wanna start is storytelling.

02:52

I have no frameworks for thinking about storytelling. Before you do storytelling, can I give you a compliment on your compliment? Yeah. So great compliment. First of all, very specific.

I have no frameworks for thinking about storytelling. Before you do storytelling, can I give you a compliment on your compliment? Yeah. So great compliment. First of all, very specific.

03:00

The second is actually it's a writing tip, which is I didn't

The second is actually it's a writing tip, which is I didn't

03:04

the thing you said where you're like, you know, I started kind of going down your rabbit hole and my, like, whatever, respect for your, whatever you said, like my,

the thing you said where you're like, you know, I started kind of going down your rabbit hole and my, like, whatever, respect for your, whatever you said, like my,

03:13

do whatever. Your score went up a lot during that process.

do whatever. Your score went up a lot during that process.

03:17

I learned this from these two guys, Dylan and Henry, they're young guys. They were, like, twenty one when I met him. And they were recording these videos. I was, like, how many views do these get? And they were, like, Oh, nobody watches these. And I'm like, but you guys are, like, really trying. Like, is it, like, someday somebody will watch these? He's like,

I learned this from these two guys, Dylan and Henry, they're young guys. They were, like, twenty one when I met him. And they were recording these videos. I was, like, how many views do these get? And they were, like, Oh, nobody watches these. And I'm like, but you guys are, like, really trying. Like, is it, like, someday somebody will watch these? He's like,

03:33

yeah, specifically, we're creating a binge bank. And I was like, what's a binge bank? And he goes,

yeah, specifically, we're creating a binge bank. And I was like, what's a binge bank? And he goes,

03:38

it's when you basically stack material so that, like, even though each one of these If we just looked at the view counts, it'd be kinda discouraging. Like, not that many people read this or watched this.

it's when you basically stack material so that, like, even though each one of these If we just looked at the view counts, it'd be kinda discouraging. Like, not that many people read this or watched this.

03:49

But there were, like, started thinking about it differently. Instead, we said, alright. Each one is not getting that many views. But I'm creating a bank where if somebody ever said, I'm curious about this guy. I wanna learn more. What is this guy all about?

But there were, like, started thinking about it differently. Instead, we said, alright. Each one is not getting that many views. But I'm creating a bank where if somebody ever said, I'm curious about this guy. I wanna learn more. What is this guy all about?

04:00

That in the next hour, you would walk out with, like, my reputation would be way higher with you. Right? Like, you would feel like you know me, you would like me, you would respect me, And it changed the way I thought about that. And so then I because I used to not I used to, like, be, like, very,

That in the next hour, you would walk out with, like, my reputation would be way higher with you. Right? Like, you would feel like you know me, you would like me, you would respect me, And it changed the way I thought about that. And so then I because I used to not I used to, like, be, like, very,

04:14

results driven. It's like, if it's not immediately paying off, it's hard for me to get excited about it. But when I thought of the binge bank, I just thought, oh, I need to create this library that if anybody, like, if they was gonna do research, Is he gonna spend an hour or two hours going, like, down the rabbit hole? I need to leave a little bread crumb trail that by the end, he's like, I love this guy. I'm all about this guy. Guess where I ended up. Guess what, like, the final thing was, which was, like, the shebang of alright. I totally vote. Old blog post that I probably god about as my guest. It's like that forty page PDF with all your main principles.

results driven. It's like, if it's not immediately paying off, it's hard for me to get excited about it. But when I thought of the binge bank, I just thought, oh, I need to create this library that if anybody, like, if they was gonna do research, Is he gonna spend an hour or two hours going, like, down the rabbit hole? I need to leave a little bread crumb trail that by the end, he's like, I love this guy. I'm all about this guy. Guess where I ended up. Guess what, like, the final thing was, which was, like, the shebang of alright. I totally vote. Old blog post that I probably god about as my guest. It's like that forty page PDF with all your main principles.

04:46

That was like the pool I swam in for the longest. And I ended up there. Yeah. Who knows? But, like, that's the you leave that trail,

That was like the pool I swam in for the longest. And I ended up there. Yeah. Who knows? But, like, that's the you leave that trail,

04:53

you could probably I should probably do it better. But, like, this idea of create a binge bank, I think is so much more valuable than a resume or a portfolio.

you could probably I should probably do it better. But, like, this idea of create a binge bank, I think is so much more valuable than a resume or a portfolio.

05:01

It's like, people will come knocking. They will get curious about you. And, like, give them a way to,

It's like, people will come knocking. They will get curious about you. And, like, give them a way to,

05:08

to just binge your content. Like, it's a Netflix show. And by after two hours, they should feel like you're the man. That's that's a goal. I think people should have. So what do you do to do that intentionally?

to just binge your content. Like, it's a Netflix show. And by after two hours, they should feel like you're the man. That's that's a goal. I think people should have. So what do you do to do that intentionally?

05:18

Well, the first thing is, like, you don't get discouraged by, like, how small your thing is today. That was, like, the first which is if you create something and the feedback loop is not quite there,

Well, the first thing is, like, you don't get discouraged by, like, how small your thing is today. That was, like, the first which is if you create something and the feedback loop is not quite there,

05:27

you're either gonna just willpower your way to keep going,

you're either gonna just willpower your way to keep going,

05:31

you're gonna be a very wise person and same results take time. I'm neither of those things. Bad of willpower

you're gonna be a very wise person and same results take time. I'm neither of those things. Bad of willpower

05:37

and not that wise. Right? Like, I I kinda know that's the answer, but it's so it's a way to trick yourself. And,

and not that wise. Right? Like, I I kinda know that's the answer, but it's so it's a way to trick yourself. And,

05:44

the way to trick yourself is to say, Oh, yeah. This one thing, it doesn't have to, like, go viral for this to be successful.

the way to trick yourself is to say, Oh, yeah. This one thing, it doesn't have to, like, go viral for this to be successful.

05:50

This is for my binge bank. I know the idea of a bitch bank is important. I wanna have that as an asset that's there for me. So what are the ten things that somebody should go consume? And I started paying attention to that and and start putting that together.

This is for my binge bank. I know the idea of a bitch bank is important. I wanna have that as an asset that's there for me. So what are the ten things that somebody should go consume? And I started paying attention to that and and start putting that together.

06:04

One of the things that you are very good at is that I feel like you're just good at learning skills putting names to them. And this is a good time to dive into the storytelling. So I guess that you had this whole day. You're like, oh, I'm gonna go check out Aaron Sorkin, and he always comes back to, like, this one core principle. Tell me about what you've learned from storytelling, and then maybe even, like, the meta of how you learn new skills.

One of the things that you are very good at is that I feel like you're just good at learning skills putting names to them. And this is a good time to dive into the storytelling. So I guess that you had this whole day. You're like, oh, I'm gonna go check out Aaron Sorkin, and he always comes back to, like, this one core principle. Tell me about what you've learned from storytelling, and then maybe even, like, the meta of how you learn new skills.

06:25

The storytelling is cool because, you know,

The storytelling is cool because, you know,

06:28

I think everybody intuitively knows storytelling has a pretty dope ability,

I think everybody intuitively knows storytelling has a pretty dope ability,

06:32

and I look for this mismatch between things that have a lot of value but you're not taught

and I look for this mismatch between things that have a lot of value but you're not taught

06:38

or even better. It sounds kinda lame to say you're working on it. Like, if I find that, I'm like, oh, this is a good

or even better. It sounds kinda lame to say you're working on it. Like, if I find that, I'm like, oh, this is a good

06:44

Another example of that to me is,

Another example of that to me is,

06:46

enthusiasm.

enthusiasm.

06:48

Anybody who's been around somebody who's, like, got high energy enthusiasm, you like that person. That's inherently like a It's a very likable trait. Of course, there's over the top obnoxious version, but it generally, you wanna on the side of have energy, have enthusiasm. Those are people you wanna do projects worth to work with. Be involved with.

Anybody who's been around somebody who's, like, got high energy enthusiasm, you like that person. That's inherently like a It's a very likable trait. Of course, there's over the top obnoxious version, but it generally, you wanna on the side of have energy, have enthusiasm. Those are people you wanna do projects worth to work with. Be involved with.

07:04

But nobody will ever be like, yeah, I'm practicing my enthusiasm.

But nobody will ever be like, yeah, I'm practicing my enthusiasm.

07:08

Right? Like, I'm practicing this. That sentence doesn't even compute.

Right? Like, I'm practicing this. That sentence doesn't even compute.

07:13

So if there's a thing that has value that other people don't practice or try at,

So if there's a thing that has value that other people don't practice or try at,

07:18

and even better, it's, like, almost taboo or lame to say you do it, I've found that those skills are actually, like, premium skills to me because

and even better, it's, like, almost taboo or lame to say you do it, I've found that those skills are actually, like, premium skills to me because

07:26

you'd almost like differentiate yourself in the marketplace. Storytelling is another one of those joke telling is another one of those. Like, if you're like,

you'd almost like differentiate yourself in the marketplace. Storytelling is another one of those joke telling is another one of those. Like, if you're like,

07:34

I am working on, like, getting funnier. They're like, are you trying to be a comedian? No. Like, you like funny people though. Right? Like, Of course, everybody does, whether it's relationships, work,

I am working on, like, getting funnier. They're like, are you trying to be a comedian? No. Like, you like funny people though. Right? Like, Of course, everybody does, whether it's relationships, work,

07:43

content creation, whatever you're doing, if you're humor level if you're more humorous, people will like it better.

content creation, whatever you're doing, if you're humor level if you're more humorous, people will like it better.

07:49

Nobody practices.

Nobody practices.

07:50

So it's like, what do you expect? Just, you know, to magically happen? Like, we kinda know everything comes to practice. Every everything is downstream of practice.

So it's like, what do you expect? Just, you know, to magically happen? Like, we kinda know everything comes to practice. Every everything is downstream of practice.

07:56

Storytelling was one of those skills where

Storytelling was one of those skills where

07:59

I knew that I loved it whenever I met somebody who's a great storyteller. I wanted to get better at it. So then who's the best in the world at this? Right? That's the next question. One of the people that came to mind when I Googled around was Aaron Sorkin. And they're he's written, you know, famous TV shows, I don't even know, West Wayne Newsero,

I knew that I loved it whenever I met somebody who's a great storyteller. I wanted to get better at it. So then who's the best in the world at this? Right? That's the next question. One of the people that came to mind when I Googled around was Aaron Sorkin. And they're he's written, you know, famous TV shows, I don't even know, West Wayne Newsero,

08:15

the social network movie.

the social network movie.

08:17

It's great for writing dialogue. And in these interviews, he says this thing. He's like, they're like, what's the key in storytelling? Like, can you teach a, like, a three hour master class? He's like, I could teach a thirty second master class. Like, wait, It's just this.

It's great for writing dialogue. And in these interviews, he says this thing. He's like, they're like, what's the key in storytelling? Like, can you teach a, like, a three hour master class? He's like, I could teach a thirty second master class. Like, wait, It's just this.

08:30

It's intention and obstacle. And he said it even better. He goes, I worship

It's intention and obstacle. And he said it even better. He goes, I worship

08:35

at the altar

at the altar

08:36

of intention and obstacle. And I was like, I don't even know what the hell he's talking about, but the way this guy serious about it tells me, like, I need to go dig in. What is he talking about? So what does this mean? Intention and obstacle is just at any given moment, the the hero of the story, whether it's you or someone you're talking about, has to have a very clear intention. What do they want?

of intention and obstacle. And I was like, I don't even know what the hell he's talking about, but the way this guy serious about it tells me, like, I need to go dig in. What is he talking about? So what does this mean? Intention and obstacle is just at any given moment, the the hero of the story, whether it's you or someone you're talking about, has to have a very clear intention. What do they want?

08:57

And under that is, like, why do they want it? How bad do they want it? What happens if they don't get it? Right? That's why it goes into intention.

And under that is, like, why do they want it? How bad do they want it? What happens if they don't get it? Right? That's why it goes into intention.

09:03

And then obstacle. Like, who's in the way? Right? So, you know, Harry Potter wants to live, what's in his way? Voldemort's trying to kill him. The most powerful wizard of all time is trying to kill him, right, intention and obstacle. And, basically, if you watch if you read any story or you watch any movie, you should be able to pause at any moment and just point at the screen and just say, what what do they want right now and what's in their way?

And then obstacle. Like, who's in the way? Right? So, you know, Harry Potter wants to live, what's in his way? Voldemort's trying to kill him. The most powerful wizard of all time is trying to kill him, right, intention and obstacle. And, basically, if you watch if you read any story or you watch any movie, you should be able to pause at any moment and just point at the screen and just say, what what do they want right now and what's in their way?

09:23

And if you ever go, like, five minutes without that being clear, people will lose a their their attention will drift away. And so,

And if you ever go, like, five minutes without that being clear, people will lose a their their attention will drift away. And so,

09:30

once I realized that, I made that the central premise of any story. And what I realized was that

once I realized that, I made that the central premise of any story. And what I realized was that

09:38

this was

this was

09:39

a incredibly powerful tool. It is the fundamental, like, building block up storytelling.

a incredibly powerful tool. It is the fundamental, like, building block up storytelling.

09:44

And,

And,

09:45

the more interesting thing, which we could talk about is it doesn't have to be life or death. Alright. Everyone, really quick. If you've heard this podcast before, you know that Sean and I think that the most important skills that you need in business is copywriting. And so what we did was we went through all of the podcasts that we've done. It's, like, five hundred of them, and we found all the best copywriting tips our resources, our frameworks, our templates. We aggregate all of them into one simple document. So you can skim it all and get everything that we've ever talked about with copywriting. It's in the link below. It's awesome. Check it out. So most people think of it when, like, the example I even gave was Harry Potter trying to live and most evil words are trying to kill them. Okay. Cool.

the more interesting thing, which we could talk about is it doesn't have to be life or death. Alright. Everyone, really quick. If you've heard this podcast before, you know that Sean and I think that the most important skills that you need in business is copywriting. And so what we did was we went through all of the podcasts that we've done. It's, like, five hundred of them, and we found all the best copywriting tips our resources, our frameworks, our templates. We aggregate all of them into one simple document. So you can skim it all and get everything that we've ever talked about with copywriting. It's in the link below. It's awesome. Check it out. So most people think of it when, like, the example I even gave was Harry Potter trying to live and most evil words are trying to kill them. Okay. Cool.

10:23

But you can shrink that down and actually you get bonus points when you can do intention and obstacle on a lower stakes moment. So I wanted a croissant,

But you can shrink that down and actually you get bonus points when you can do intention and obstacle on a lower stakes moment. So I wanted a croissant,

10:32

and all the places were closed, but I need my croissant. You need your croissant, and the but the audience has to believe that you truly needed it, and you gotta tell. It'd be like, you gotta make them believe that you really wanted it ideally because you actually did. Right? You're, you know, don't have to fabricate the story. It should be real. I'll give you an example. I was at a,

and all the places were closed, but I need my croissant. You need your croissant, and the but the audience has to believe that you truly needed it, and you gotta tell. It'd be like, you gotta make them believe that you really wanted it ideally because you actually did. Right? You're, you know, don't have to fabricate the story. It should be real. I'll give you an example. I was at a,

10:51

like, executive off-site.

like, executive off-site.

10:53

My company had just got acquired I put on the exec team of this now, like, two thousand person company,

My company had just got acquired I put on the exec team of this now, like, two thousand person company,

10:58

and I don't I feel a little out of place. Like, I've never worked in a company bigger than twenty people. And I wanted to use storytelling to kind of, like,

and I don't I feel a little out of place. Like, I've never worked in a company bigger than twenty people. And I wanted to use storytelling to kind of, like,

11:06

as a crutch, as as one of my tools in my toolkit. How can I use this to better myself? Alright. So,

as a crutch, as as one of my tools in my toolkit. How can I use this to better myself? Alright. So,

11:12

we're supposed to go around the circle and, like, say, what's been going on?

we're supposed to go around the circle and, like, say, what's been going on?

11:16

What's something what's this what's something recently that happened that you wanna share with the group? Some BS like, icebreaker. And every single person just did it in a work context. Oh, we're working on this thing, but then this person on my team had did this problem or they quit or whatever. Working this thing, but then legal said this. And it's kinda like boring, boring, boring.

What's something what's this what's something recently that happened that you wanna share with the group? Some BS like, icebreaker. And every single person just did it in a work context. Oh, we're working on this thing, but then this person on my team had did this problem or they quit or whatever. Working this thing, but then legal said this. And it's kinda like boring, boring, boring.

11:35

And,

And,

11:36

I was like, yeah, recently, had a big moment, big day. And,

I was like, yeah, recently, had a big moment, big day. And,

11:40

okay, pause. Right? Get people curious.

okay, pause. Right? Get people curious.

11:44

I said,

I said,

11:46

I just moved out of the house. I was young. Right? Sounds like I moved out of the house. I'm living in my own place. I've been living there for a year now, but I've never invited my mom over. And my mom's a bad dream. Why don't you invite me over? What she doesn't know is I'd never invite her over because

I just moved out of the house. I was young. Right? Sounds like I moved out of the house. I'm living in my own place. I've been living there for a year now, but I've never invited my mom over. And my mom's a bad dream. Why don't you invite me over? What she doesn't know is I'd never invite her over because

11:58

I don't wanna I don't know how to host. She was always the host if someone came over. I don't know how to do adult things. So people are kinda laughing. Right? Because I'm But I'm, like, I was, like, I had been trying to get her to, like, treat me like an adult, but the reality was,

I don't wanna I don't know how to host. She was always the host if someone came over. I don't know how to do adult things. So people are kinda laughing. Right? Because I'm But I'm, like, I was, like, I had been trying to get her to, like, treat me like an adult, but the reality was,

12:12

I'm, like, I'm not. I'm actually still a little little boy. Right? And so I'm telling the story about how my mom comes over and I decided to cook. I decided to cook brussels sprouts, most adult food there is. Problem is, don't know how to cook brussels sprouts. I'm doing it blah blah blah, and I tell the store cooked in the brussels sprouts. And I just kid you not everybody's like, everybody's entertained. They listen to it. And during the break, everybody made a point to come up and be like, dude. That brusseltruck is hilarious.

I'm, like, I'm not. I'm actually still a little little boy. Right? And so I'm telling the story about how my mom comes over and I decided to cook. I decided to cook brussels sprouts, most adult food there is. Problem is, don't know how to cook brussels sprouts. I'm doing it blah blah blah, and I tell the store cooked in the brussels sprouts. And I just kid you not everybody's like, everybody's entertained. They listen to it. And during the break, everybody made a point to come up and be like, dude. That brusseltruck is hilarious.

12:35

That was so that was so funny. Like, what was that? And what even just happened? They kinda couldn't even explain it. And

That was so that was so funny. Like, what was that? And what even just happened? They kinda couldn't even explain it. And

12:41

for me, it was just another example of using storytelling even on low stakes moments actually

for me, it was just another example of using storytelling even on low stakes moments actually

12:46

builds likability

builds likability

12:48

and,

and,

12:49

fandom

fandom

12:50

more so than the dramatic.

more so than the dramatic.

12:52

I was skiing and there was an avalanche. That's cool, but it's unrelatable.

I was skiing and there was an avalanche. That's cool, but it's unrelatable.

12:56

And, actually, there's something fundamentally unlikable about it. And I wanna write,

And, actually, there's something fundamentally unlikable about it. And I wanna write,

13:00

usually, if I wanna write something, it's because I'm trying to whatever. I'm trying to have fun, but I'm also trying to build an audience of people who like me or are fans of me or

usually, if I wanna write something, it's because I'm trying to whatever. I'm trying to have fun, but I'm also trying to build an audience of people who like me or are fans of me or

13:09

get customers who wanna, you know, buy my or whatever, I try to use likability for that. It was interesting. I was at,

get customers who wanna, you know, buy my or whatever, I try to use likability for that. It was interesting. I was at,

13:16

sort of a very fancy terrace, like, multi billionaire's house, and was one of those dinners where everyone is, like, you know, people had flown in for the dinner. And there's, like, an Olympian who's sitting across the table who's, like, a big fan of grown up and

sort of a very fancy terrace, like, multi billionaire's house, and was one of those dinners where everyone is, like, you know, people had flown in for the dinner. And there's, like, an Olympian who's sitting across the table who's, like, a big fan of grown up and

13:28

and we're all going around doing introductions,

and we're all going around doing introductions,

13:30

and it's my time to do the introduction.

and it's my time to do the introduction.

13:34

So I'm nervous. I really wanna impress everybody. Like, when childhood heroes and not a corpse. Yeah. We can wait two of a lot. Right? And,

So I'm nervous. I really wanna impress everybody. Like, when childhood heroes and not a corpse. Yeah. We can wait two of a lot. Right? And,

13:42

I, you know, sort of put myself up and I talk about, hey, this is what I do for a living, and I'm like, I'll crushed, you know, man, everyone love this. And we're we're hanging out after after dinner and back in my apartment, my buddy goes,

I, you know, sort of put myself up and I talk about, hey, this is what I do for a living, and I'm like, I'll crushed, you know, man, everyone love this. And we're we're hanging out after after dinner and back in my apartment, my buddy goes,

13:54

Yo. You did the worst job ever. Like,

Yo. You did the worst job ever. Like,

13:57

that was a horrible intro. It's like, what are you talking about? Every word to the bone, like, how my one liners, like, ready to go. Crushed it. He's like,

that was a horrible intro. It's like, what are you talking about? Every word to the bone, like, how my one liners, like, ready to go. Crushed it. He's like,

14:06

no.

no.

14:07

You were just trying to sound impressive. In a moment like that, you tell a funny story or you make a joke and you lighten the mood. You did exactly the wrong thing. Right. Yeah. That's, first of all, great friend. Great friend. Can we call that out? And you're absolutely right. I learned this from Hassan Minaj, the comedian because I was gonna go on stage. I was like, hey, dude, like, You do this for a living. I don't know how to do this stuff. And he goes, you wanna,

You were just trying to sound impressive. In a moment like that, you tell a funny story or you make a joke and you lighten the mood. You did exactly the wrong thing. Right. Yeah. That's, first of all, great friend. Great friend. Can we call that out? And you're absolutely right. I learned this from Hassan Minaj, the comedian because I was gonna go on stage. I was like, hey, dude, like, You do this for a living. I don't know how to do this stuff. And he goes, you wanna,

14:32

he goes, comedy is a low status game.

he goes, comedy is a low status game.

14:35

So he goes, you know, you're gonna be up on stage and you're nervous. So your natural tendency is gonna be to puff your chest out to kind of project this false bravado.

So he goes, you know, you're gonna be up on stage and you're nervous. So your natural tendency is gonna be to puff your chest out to kind of project this false bravado.

14:43

But he's like, actually what you wanna do is build connection with people and you build connection with people through,

But he's like, actually what you wanna do is build connection with people and you build connection with people through,

14:49

vulnerability through

vulnerability through

14:51

low low stakes,

low low stakes,

14:53

through,

through,

14:54

low status, specifically.

low status, specifically.

14:56

He starts his comedy special. I went and wrote it out to try to, like, understand what he does. His last comedy special.

He starts his comedy special. I went and wrote it out to try to, like, understand what he does. His last comedy special.

15:02

He starts out. He's sitting on a stool. He's talking about how intention. Him and his wife been trying to get pregnant.

He starts out. He's sitting on a stool. He's talking about how intention. Him and his wife been trying to get pregnant.

15:08

And they haven't been able to, and they went to a doctor, and he's, like, the worst news ever.

And they haven't been able to, and they went to a doctor, and he's, like, the worst news ever.

15:13

It was my fault. My balls don't work, basically. Right? Like, is there a lower status thing as a guy than to be like, IBM, my junk doesn't doesn't perform? So it's just a way.

It was my fault. My balls don't work, basically. Right? Like, is there a lower status thing as a guy than to be like, IBM, my junk doesn't doesn't perform? So it's just a way.

15:23

Like, that that word choice is inherently funny. Exactly. And so, you know, he's obviously a master at this and trying to trying to learn from people who are, like, I'm in business. I don't try to learn how to be a better storyteller or better writer from business people. Why would I do that? I would try to learn from the people who their thing is storytelling, writing, or entertainment because they're gonna be the best at this. You know, Aaron Sorkin, comedians. Those are the people I try to learn from. And so I think that was one principle that sounds like you you learned the lesson the hard way too.

Like, that that word choice is inherently funny. Exactly. And so, you know, he's obviously a master at this and trying to trying to learn from people who are, like, I'm in business. I don't try to learn how to be a better storyteller or better writer from business people. Why would I do that? I would try to learn from the people who their thing is storytelling, writing, or entertainment because they're gonna be the best at this. You know, Aaron Sorkin, comedians. Those are the people I try to learn from. And so I think that was one principle that sounds like you you learned the lesson the hard way too.

15:53

How is storytelling different for you in writing versus speaking?

How is storytelling different for you in writing versus speaking?

15:57

It's not that different.

It's not that different.

16:00

In general, one of my biggest writing rules is write like you talk.

In general, one of my biggest writing rules is write like you talk.

16:05

Most people have this false,

Most people have this false,

16:07

thing we do. I think it's from school. Like, school kinda teaches you, like, they're like, Read Shakespeare

thing we do. I think it's from school. Like, school kinda teaches you, like, they're like, Read Shakespeare

16:13

write these essays. You know, I need six pages,

write these essays. You know, I need six pages,

16:16

six pages minimum,

six pages minimum,

16:17

you know, double spaced, you know, all this stuff. Use a big vocabulary

you know, double spaced, you know, all this stuff. Use a big vocabulary

16:23

all the things that don't work in the real world, you learn in school. I think what school teaches you is basically just pretend. Like,

all the things that don't work in the real world, you learn in school. I think what school teaches you is basically just pretend. Like,

16:29

hey, be something you're totally not That's what good writing is.

hey, be something you're totally not That's what good writing is.

16:34

In the real world, I don't think that's true. I think, you know,

In the real world, I don't think that's true. I think, you know,

16:37

good writing is simple. Good writing is easy to read. Good writing is entertaining to read. Good writing has a voice. It's not just like this, you know, archaic sounding thing.

good writing is simple. Good writing is easy to read. Good writing is entertaining to read. Good writing has a voice. It's not just like this, you know, archaic sounding thing.

16:48

Anyways, I, you know, one of the principles is right like you talk. So if I'm gonna write a story,

Anyways, I, you know, one of the principles is right like you talk. So if I'm gonna write a story,

16:53

I will actually say it first, and then I'll just write down what I said. That's, like, a starting point for me, because for most people, myself included, if you sit down the, like, blank page, you know, of death is, like, the most intimidating

I will actually say it first, and then I'll just write down what I said. That's, like, a starting point for me, because for most people, myself included, if you sit down the, like, blank page, you know, of death is, like, the most intimidating

17:05

thing. It's very hard to even get started.

thing. It's very hard to even get started.

17:07

But if you are stuck and so you just say, okay. So what is the story? Like, forget the words.

But if you are stuck and so you just say, okay. So what is the story? Like, forget the words.

17:14

What are you trying to say?

What are you trying to say?

17:15

I'm trying to tell a story about the one time with the most spots and blah blah blah. Cool. What makes it interesting? Alright. Great.

I'm trying to tell a story about the one time with the most spots and blah blah blah. Cool. What makes it interesting? Alright. Great.

17:22

Where did it start? What's the start of the story? Well, certainly, it's when I, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what's the end? Well, the end was when this happened. Alright. Cool. Sounds like you had a beginning middle end. You know what happened. And you roughly hit the outline.

Where did it start? What's the start of the story? Well, certainly, it's when I, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what's the end? Well, the end was when this happened. Alright. Cool. Sounds like you had a beginning middle end. You know what happened. And you roughly hit the outline.

17:33

Cool. Maybe they'll start writing. And so,

Cool. Maybe they'll start writing. And so,

17:36

right like you talk is an important principle. And then the other thing is, there are nuances that are different. So for example, in writing,

right like you talk is an important principle. And then the other thing is, there are nuances that are different. So for example, in writing,

17:43

I'll use a ton of, like, parenthesis

I'll use a ton of, like, parenthesis

17:45

because you can't do that in

because you can't do that in

17:47

you kinda you can break the fourth wall, basically, when when you write. But when you talk,

you kinda you can break the fourth wall, basically, when when you write. But when you talk,

17:51

it would be like me saying,

it would be like me saying,

17:54

we were going this way. You know, we we always take that route. Right? It's like, that's a parenthesis when you're talking. When you're writing, it's actually much easier to do.

we were going this way. You know, we we always take that route. Right? It's like, that's a parenthesis when you're talking. When you're writing, it's actually much easier to do.

18:02

But when you're talking, you can use pauses,

But when you're talking, you can use pauses,

18:05

a dramatic pause. How do you do a dramatic pause in writing? It's kinda hard to do. You have to, like, use, like, line breaks or dot dot dot dot or whatever. Right? Like, you gotta try that. So you some tools are a little bit different, but I would say eighty to ninety percent of it is the same to me. Have you learned anything about the pacing of a story? Like, the

a dramatic pause. How do you do a dramatic pause in writing? It's kinda hard to do. You have to, like, use, like, line breaks or dot dot dot dot or whatever. Right? Like, you gotta try that. So you some tools are a little bit different, but I would say eighty to ninety percent of it is the same to me. Have you learned anything about the pacing of a story? Like, the

18:23

how you drag it out or compress it? Like, does that change for different platforms? How do you think about that? Definitely.

how you drag it out or compress it? Like, does that change for different platforms? How do you think about that? Definitely.

18:30

You know, I think another misconception is

You know, I think another misconception is

18:34

shorter the better. Like, you know, too long, it's too boring, and actually,

shorter the better. Like, you know, too long, it's too boring, and actually,

18:39

you know, anything could be any length. It just says you can only be as long as it is interesting.

you know, anything could be any length. It just says you can only be as long as it is interesting.

18:44

Listen, general rule. It can only be as long as it is interesting.

Listen, general rule. It can only be as long as it is interesting.

18:48

If you can go this long, you know, a long, you know, blog post, but it's interesting to all way. Fantastic. That's the right length.

If you can go this long, you know, a long, you know, blog post, but it's interesting to all way. Fantastic. That's the right length.

18:54

However,

However,

18:55

you should always try to understand, like, what is your level of credibility or buy in with the audience.

you should always try to understand, like, what is your level of credibility or buy in with the audience.

19:01

So here in a podcast,

So here in a podcast,

19:03

you can kinda riff in a podcast. You could be like, dude, what, you know, we could talk about something we said in the lobby or be like, oh, you just had Sam Albany on. Does he have a bodyguard? Like, we could just not talk about writing for five minutes, totally fine. However, if it's cold traffic on the internet, you better have, like, an amazing headline and a first line that's gonna hook people and be right about the match that the headline was because you don't you don't have that reputation with them. So if you know your audience's level of buy in with you, you can

you can kinda riff in a podcast. You could be like, dude, what, you know, we could talk about something we said in the lobby or be like, oh, you just had Sam Albany on. Does he have a bodyguard? Like, we could just not talk about writing for five minutes, totally fine. However, if it's cold traffic on the internet, you better have, like, an amazing headline and a first line that's gonna hook people and be right about the match that the headline was because you don't you don't have that reputation with them. So if you know your audience's level of buy in with you, you can

19:29

kind of,

kind of,

19:31

dance around subjects versus be very direct and immediate and try to provide value right away

dance around subjects versus be very direct and immediate and try to provide value right away

19:36

to hook people right away. So your TikTok is a platform where you're swiping,

to hook people right away. So your TikTok is a platform where you're swiping,

19:41

like and if it's not interesting in the first, like, point nine seconds, you're gone. So on TikTok, you see people right away try to say a thing. On podcasts, you'll see people shoot the shit,

like and if it's not interesting in the first, like, point nine seconds, you're gone. So on TikTok, you see people right away try to say a thing. On podcasts, you'll see people shoot the shit,

19:50

and build, you know, there's a chemistry thing because people aren't gonna swipe away from the podcast in in the first thirty seconds. It's not usually how people consume podcasts. And so you gotta know your medium and you gotta know your audience. What's the level of buy and you have? How do you think about the hooks for a story? Like, one of the things I've noticed with comedians

and build, you know, there's a chemistry thing because people aren't gonna swipe away from the podcast in in the first thirty seconds. It's not usually how people consume podcasts. And so you gotta know your medium and you gotta know your audience. What's the level of buy and you have? How do you think about the hooks for a story? Like, one of the things I've noticed with comedians

20:08

and really studied

and really studied

20:09

is how fast they're able to build context? They can do it in, like, six to eight words, where some people just go on and on and on and on and on at drones.

is how fast they're able to build context? They can do it in, like, six to eight words, where some people just go on and on and on and on and on at drones.

20:18

And that hook of how you bring people into the story is super important.

And that hook of how you bring people into the story is super important.

20:23

I agree. However, I so what

I agree. However, I so what

20:27

is so a hook is basically it's the first thing you're gonna say to try to hook their attention. Great.

is so a hook is basically it's the first thing you're gonna say to try to hook their attention. Great.

20:32

I think actually right now, for for the type of person who's gonna listen to this, you probably

I think actually right now, for for the type of person who's gonna listen to this, you probably

20:37

have studied a little bit of write copywriting maybe, or you've gotta pay attention to what, like, oh, this person's blowing up on Twitter. What do they do? Oh, they would, like, you know, they write their threads first line of their thread is, like,

have studied a little bit of write copywriting maybe, or you've gotta pay attention to what, like, oh, this person's blowing up on Twitter. What do they do? Oh, they would, like, you know, they write their threads first line of their thread is, like,

20:47

here's the, unbelievable story about how this, you know, Chinese immigrant

here's the, unbelievable story about how this, you know, Chinese immigrant

20:52

took a simple thimble and turned it into ten billion dollars, whatever. So I'm like, unbelievable

took a simple thimble and turned it into ten billion dollars, whatever. So I'm like, unbelievable

20:57

sounding look that you're like, oh, you have to pick. It's like maximum clickbait. Right?

sounding look that you're like, oh, you have to pick. It's like maximum clickbait. Right?

21:02

I actually think that hooks somewhat overrated,

I actually think that hooks somewhat overrated,

21:05

underrated is frames. So what's a frame? So a frame is you take an idea

underrated is frames. So what's a frame? So a frame is you take an idea

21:11

And an idea can be this big or it could be this big depending on the frame. So

And an idea can be this big or it could be this big depending on the frame. So

21:16

I can be like,

I can be like,

21:18

you know, what's this? I don't have a good example on top of my head, but we'll do one that we just talked about. That has been a comedy thing. Right? I told a little story about what he's doing in,

you know, what's this? I don't have a good example on top of my head, but we'll do one that we just talked about. That has been a comedy thing. Right? I told a little story about what he's doing in,

21:28

in his opening line. So I could just say,

in his opening line. So I could just say,

21:31

here's what he did at the start of his thing. I could say, here's what you can learn about public speaking

here's what he did at the start of his thing. I could say, here's what you can learn about public speaking

21:36

from one of the greatest public speakers in the world, awesome and notch. Right? So I could take the same content where I'm gonna talk about starting with a low status thing, but I can put it in the frame of this is not just for comedians.

from one of the greatest public speakers in the world, awesome and notch. Right? So I could take the same content where I'm gonna talk about starting with a low status thing, but I can put it in the frame of this is not just for comedians.

21:49

This is actually when you're at a dinner party and you're supposed to make an intro, And you don't know what the hell to say.

This is actually when you're at a dinner party and you're supposed to make an intro, And you don't know what the hell to say.

21:55

This is how to not make an ass out of yourself. You change the frame. Right. And so I think that more important than a hook, which is just like a grab you by the throat attention grabber is think about how you're gonna frame your ideas.

This is how to not make an ass out of yourself. You change the frame. Right. And so I think that more important than a hook, which is just like a grab you by the throat attention grabber is think about how you're gonna frame your ideas.

22:07

Hooks are about

Hooks are about

22:09

the words you're gonna write

the words you're gonna write

22:11

frames are about the idea and how you're gonna make that idea relevant and how you're gonna connect two ideas that seem unrelated to be related. The real great writers, I believe, are

frames are about the idea and how you're gonna make that idea relevant and how you're gonna connect two ideas that seem unrelated to be related. The real great writers, I believe, are

22:21

great at framing their ideas more so than, like,

great at framing their ideas more so than, like,

22:24

just coming up with that perfect one line hook thing that's gonna, like, you know, just kinda trip the person into clicking. Yeah. Let's get super concrete here. So

just coming up with that perfect one line hook thing that's gonna, like, you know, just kinda trip the person into clicking. Yeah. Let's get super concrete here. So

22:33

you wrote a super viral thread on clubhouse.

you wrote a super viral thread on clubhouse.

22:36

And

And

22:37

this was the

this was the

22:39

standard

standard

22:39

way to do a frame. So it says one parenthesis

way to do a frame. So it says one parenthesis

22:43

clubhouse existential threat, number one, time to value

clubhouse existential threat, number one, time to value

22:47

ratio, let's let's brainstorm. And you're like, jargon, fancy words,

ratio, let's let's brainstorm. And you're like, jargon, fancy words,

22:53

Exactly. Yeah. I don't like it. It, like, in brainstorm, like, no storyline, and then it didn't do that well. And you come in, you're like, so dot dot dot Everyone seems to think clubhouse is the next big thing, but I think it's gonna fail.

Exactly. Yeah. I don't like it. It, like, in brainstorm, like, no storyline, and then it didn't do that well. And you come in, you're like, so dot dot dot Everyone seems to think clubhouse is the next big thing, but I think it's gonna fail.

23:07

Here's how I think it all goes down. Yes.

Here's how I think it all goes down. Yes.

23:10

Why did you choose that? So that if you compare the two, and, like, on your YouTube, you should put these, like, side by side so people could see it. The other one was written by this guy Chris who created an app that was kinda like clubhouse went super viral. It was called Secret back in the day. I don't know if you remember this. It's called Secret with Superviral. They raised like a hundred million dollars. The founder, like, sold some secondary, bought a Ferrari, like, it was, like, the hit product for, like, a very short window of time, and then it died. So if anyone has the credibility to say why clubhouse might fail.

Why did you choose that? So that if you compare the two, and, like, on your YouTube, you should put these, like, side by side so people could see it. The other one was written by this guy Chris who created an app that was kinda like clubhouse went super viral. It was called Secret back in the day. I don't know if you remember this. It's called Secret with Superviral. They raised like a hundred million dollars. The founder, like, sold some secondary, bought a Ferrari, like, it was, like, the hit product for, like, a very short window of time, and then it died. So if anyone has the credibility to say why clubhouse might fail.

23:37

That guy was actually the guy. The problem was

That guy was actually the guy. The problem was

23:41

he was extremely dry. He told no story.

he was extremely dry. He told no story.

23:44

And just said,

And just said,

23:46

and use, like, very, like,

and use, like, very, like,

23:48

you know, twelfth grade reading level jargon, like, Clubhouse's existential

you know, twelfth grade reading level jargon, like, Clubhouse's existential

23:52

threat

threat

23:53

the the time to value ratio, like, immediately felt like homework, whereas my thing was everybody thinks x, but I think y And more the most important part was here's how I think it's gonna go down. Not here's why I'm right.

the the time to value ratio, like, immediately felt like homework, whereas my thing was everybody thinks x, but I think y And more the most important part was here's how I think it's gonna go down. Not here's why I'm right.

24:08

So here's how it's gonna go down is basically, like, Gossip. It's story.

So here's how it's gonna go down is basically, like, Gossip. It's story.

24:13

Here's why is logic and rationale. So that's kinda why I wrote it that way was And then the rest of the thread, the reason this thread got, like, twenty million

Here's why is logic and rationale. So that's kinda why I wrote it that way was And then the rest of the thread, the reason this thread got, like, twenty million

24:22

people to read it was because

people to read it was because

24:25

I told I wrote it almost like a screenplay. I was like,

I told I wrote it almost like a screenplay. I was like,

24:27

I didn't say, here's the five problems with clubhouse. I wrote, you're the founder of clubhouse. First of all, fuck yeah. You know, you're winning. Everybody is talking about your app your app cool, you know, Kanye's in your DMs,

I didn't say, here's the five problems with clubhouse. I wrote, you're the founder of clubhouse. First of all, fuck yeah. You know, you're winning. Everybody is talking about your app your app cool, you know, Kanye's in your DMs,

24:39

VCs are throwing money at you, and I set it up. Right? Like, you that's the setup. That's you right now. And already, you know, if you're reading that. This is not how most

VCs are throwing money at you, and I set it up. Right? Like, you that's the setup. That's you right now. And already, you know, if you're reading that. This is not how most

24:49

business tech Twitter writing goes. Most business tech Twitter writing goes is that it's an intelligence contest, and I was telling a story.

business tech Twitter writing goes. Most business tech Twitter writing goes is that it's an intelligence contest, and I was telling a story.

24:57

And, and so, you know, that's why I think it worked. I think if I had ridden it with the, you know, me trying to be the the nine thousand IQ guy in the room, it would not have worked. So when you see people say that I'm

And, and so, you know, that's why I think it worked. I think if I had ridden it with the, you know, me trying to be the the nine thousand IQ guy in the room, it would not have worked. So when you see people say that I'm

25:08

writing now and I'm like, alright. I'm not gonna do intelligence contest. I'm gonna try to

writing now and I'm like, alright. I'm not gonna do intelligence contest. I'm gonna try to

25:14

do exactly what

do exactly what

25:15

Aaron Horkin said. There's intention and there's obstacle.

Aaron Horkin said. There's intention and there's obstacle.

25:19

I'm gonna frame what I'm saying in terms of story. I'm gonna focus on the frame and say that my writing still. It's just like, yo, this is lame. What do you think is going on there that

I'm gonna frame what I'm saying in terms of story. I'm gonna focus on the frame and say that my writing still. It's just like, yo, this is lame. What do you think is going on there that

25:28

makes it feel dry or, like, it lacks a sense of momentum?

makes it feel dry or, like, it lacks a sense of momentum?

25:32

Well, in the same way that comedy is great, but not every line should be a joke.

Well, in the same way that comedy is great, but not every line should be a joke.

25:37

Storytelling is great, and not every piece of content needs a story. So I think one challenge is, like, I wrote that one as a story. It did great. That doesn't mean everything I write online is like

Storytelling is great, and not every piece of content needs a story. So I think one challenge is, like, I wrote that one as a story. It did great. That doesn't mean everything I write online is like

25:46

screen play story type of thing. That worked in situation.

screen play story type of thing. That worked in situation.

25:50

It's not gonna work in every situation. So you gotta know, like, the tools and when to use them. Hammer's not good if you're just trying to open a door. Sometimes a key is what you need. And so That's the first thing. Don't just force it in. The second thing is, like, you probably need reps. Like,

It's not gonna work in every situation. So you gotta know, like, the tools and when to use them. Hammer's not good if you're just trying to open a door. Sometimes a key is what you need. And so That's the first thing. Don't just force it in. The second thing is, like, you probably need reps. Like,

26:02

I don't know. I've done this a lot of times. That wasn't the first story I've ever written. So if you're like, cool. I'm gonna get better at storytelling.

I don't know. I've done this a lot of times. That wasn't the first story I've ever written. So if you're like, cool. I'm gonna get better at storytelling.

26:08

Be prepared. Like, tell a hundred stories starting with maximum cringe,

Be prepared. Like, tell a hundred stories starting with maximum cringe,

26:13

and get to not cringe. Right? Like, but it's gonna take a hundred. Expect that it's gonna take a hundred stabs at this. And specifically,

and get to not cringe. Right? Like, but it's gonna take a hundred. Expect that it's gonna take a hundred stabs at this. And specifically,

26:21

a hundred intelligent reps. So it's like, do it. And then the next one, you have to be like, what could I do better? Oh, my hook was a little weak there. Or Oh, you know, it droned on too long, or I don't really have a point. Maybe this shouldn't have been a story. Maybe it shouldn't have been something else. And so hundred reps were each one, you try to say, what's one thing I could do better than last time? Just one thing. That's it. And then you just keep going. And if you could do a hundred of those, then I bet your stories will work. It's not gonna be it's not gonna feel forced because you'll learn the skill through those hundred reps. This is the mister Beastism of, he's like, everybody asked me, like, how do you do YouTube good? He's like, I tell them all the same exact thing. Make a hundred videos and every video make make Do something better than you did before. Any well, anything. Doesn't even matter what it is. One thing better than four, do a hundred, then come back and talk to me. And he's like, two things happen. First of all, nobody does it. They all wanted just, like, some answer. They had no act no intention of actually going and doing the work.

a hundred intelligent reps. So it's like, do it. And then the next one, you have to be like, what could I do better? Oh, my hook was a little weak there. Or Oh, you know, it droned on too long, or I don't really have a point. Maybe this shouldn't have been a story. Maybe it shouldn't have been something else. And so hundred reps were each one, you try to say, what's one thing I could do better than last time? Just one thing. That's it. And then you just keep going. And if you could do a hundred of those, then I bet your stories will work. It's not gonna be it's not gonna feel forced because you'll learn the skill through those hundred reps. This is the mister Beastism of, he's like, everybody asked me, like, how do you do YouTube good? He's like, I tell them all the same exact thing. Make a hundred videos and every video make make Do something better than you did before. Any well, anything. Doesn't even matter what it is. One thing better than four, do a hundred, then come back and talk to me. And he's like, two things happen. First of all, nobody does it. They all wanted just, like, some answer. They had no act no intention of actually going and doing the work.

27:12

Then of the few people who actually do the work, they never need to talk to me again. By the hundredth one, they figured it out. They're doing great. They're like, they never come back for advice. That's why it's the perfect advice to give someone because it's true and it saves both of us to hassle, you know, if you actually followed it. Yeah.

Then of the few people who actually do the work, they never need to talk to me again. By the hundredth one, they figured it out. They're doing great. They're like, they never come back for advice. That's why it's the perfect advice to give someone because it's true and it saves both of us to hassle, you know, if you actually followed it. Yeah.

27:27

What did you learn from story worthy?

What did you learn from story worthy?

27:29

Story worthy is an amazing book by this, like, teacher guy who's like,

Story worthy is an amazing book by this, like, teacher guy who's like,

27:35

this twenty time storytelling champion of the moth storytelling even know what this thing was. But whatever, if you're the champion of something I paid, a little bit of attention. He's got this book. And in the book, it's basically how to tell better stories.

this twenty time storytelling champion of the moth storytelling even know what this thing was. But whatever, if you're the champion of something I paid, a little bit of attention. He's got this book. And in the book, it's basically how to tell better stories.

27:48

I would say, you know, probably worth reading the book. He's got one thing that I really took, which was stakes.

I would say, you know, probably worth reading the book. He's got one thing that I really took, which was stakes.

27:54

So he's like,

So he's like,

27:56

every great story needs stakes.

every great story needs stakes.

27:58

Meaning, if the story is intention and obstacle, but if you don't make it clear,

Meaning, if the story is intention and obstacle, but if you don't make it clear,

28:03

what's at stake for the for the person if they don't get it,

what's at stake for the for the person if they don't get it,

28:07

then the store is not gonna have very not be very compelling. So, you know, When you tell a story, let's say it's the and it doesn't have to be high stakes. Like, it doesn't he he's actually very again, he the other thing he says is, like, don't tell, like, it calls, like, vacation romp. So it's, like, Don't just tell a story about this great night you had, this party because, like, nobody cares. Nobody wants to hear about your vacation. Nobody wants to hear about your cool college party you went to. Like, just fundamentally those are bad stories. The second thing is, like, a great story is not just I was sitting in the ocean of a shark pit me and then I survived. Like, it doesn't need to be extreme. And again, It's actually almost better if it's not.

then the store is not gonna have very not be very compelling. So, you know, When you tell a story, let's say it's the and it doesn't have to be high stakes. Like, it doesn't he he's actually very again, he the other thing he says is, like, don't tell, like, it calls, like, vacation romp. So it's, like, Don't just tell a story about this great night you had, this party because, like, nobody cares. Nobody wants to hear about your vacation. Nobody wants to hear about your cool college party you went to. Like, just fundamentally those are bad stories. The second thing is, like, a great story is not just I was sitting in the ocean of a shark pit me and then I survived. Like, it doesn't need to be extreme. And again, It's actually almost better if it's not.

28:41

But you still need steaks. So how do you have steaks even if it's not a shark biting you often? His his answer was,

But you still need steaks. So how do you have steaks even if it's not a shark biting you often? His his answer was,

28:47

the stakes come from the emotion. So as long as you believe that that other person was gonna feel a certain way,

the stakes come from the emotion. So as long as you believe that that other person was gonna feel a certain way,

28:53

then the story has stakes. So for example, if I'm trying to impress my mom doing the brussel sprouts thing, embarrassment is what's on the line. Right? Like, I'm gonna be embarrassed, and my ego is gonna take a hit. As long as you believe that that's true for me, the story will be entertaining,

then the story has stakes. So for example, if I'm trying to impress my mom doing the brussel sprouts thing, embarrassment is what's on the line. Right? Like, I'm gonna be embarrassed, and my ego is gonna take a hit. As long as you believe that that's true for me, the story will be entertaining,

29:07

when it's a pro when I actually tell it, when it's actually delivered.

when it's a pro when I actually tell it, when it's actually delivered.

29:10

The other one he says is because what is a story story is a five second moment of change?

The other one he says is because what is a story story is a five second moment of change?

29:15

Whoa. What does that mean? A five second. So he's like, you know,

Whoa. What does that mean? A five second. So he's like, you know,

29:20

everything that you tell in the story

everything that you tell in the story

29:22

comes to this one moment, this five seconds where the character is transformed.

comes to this one moment, this five seconds where the character is transformed.

29:26

You know,

You know,

29:27

Just I use movies because it's easier that most people don't have, like, a big archive of writing in their head, but, like, we've all watched the same shows and movies. Every rom com is, like, some version of the following

Just I use movies because it's easier that most people don't have, like, a big archive of writing in their head, but, like, we've all watched the same shows and movies. Every rom com is, like, some version of the following

29:37

you the guy is a player and he's never gonna settle down. That's the start of the movie. Or she's a high powered lawyer who's doing great in her career, but never made enough time for love. That's always the start of the story. Right? There's always two rom coms. Right? Like, she was in love. They thought she thought they would get happily married. He broke her heart. Start of the rom com. So, well, guess what the ending of the rom coms gonna be always the exact opposite of that. If she was the high powered lawyer who never made time for love, she's now gonna be in love, and she's gonna actually quit her job as a lawyer and be, like, open up a bakery. Right? Like, that's how the movie's gonna end or If he didn't wanna settle down, and he was a player, by the end, he's gonna be chasing her, and he's gonna, like, propose to her. Right? He's gonna wanna settle down. So

you the guy is a player and he's never gonna settle down. That's the start of the movie. Or she's a high powered lawyer who's doing great in her career, but never made enough time for love. That's always the start of the story. Right? There's always two rom coms. Right? Like, she was in love. They thought she thought they would get happily married. He broke her heart. Start of the rom com. So, well, guess what the ending of the rom coms gonna be always the exact opposite of that. If she was the high powered lawyer who never made time for love, she's now gonna be in love, and she's gonna actually quit her job as a lawyer and be, like, open up a bakery. Right? Like, that's how the movie's gonna end or If he didn't wanna settle down, and he was a player, by the end, he's gonna be chasing her, and he's gonna, like, propose to her. Right? He's gonna wanna settle down. So

30:17

spoiler for all romcoms ever. And, and it's actually all movies ever die hard, Jurassic Park. You could do the same exercise. Watch the opening one minute.

spoiler for all romcoms ever. And, and it's actually all movies ever die hard, Jurassic Park. You could do the same exercise. Watch the opening one minute.

30:26

The end is gonna be that character,

The end is gonna be that character,

30:29

the opposite of his current lifestyle or belief system or habits.

the opposite of his current lifestyle or belief system or habits.

30:35

You know, scrooge hates Christmas. He loves Christmas or whatever it's all every movie, every story is the same. So The heart of the story is the five second moment when they actually made the transformation when they switched.

You know, scrooge hates Christmas. He loves Christmas or whatever it's all every movie, every story is the same. So The heart of the story is the five second moment when they actually made the transformation when they switched.

30:46

And it's usually when they lost it all, when they had the heart break, when they hit rock bottom, when they had no choice but to be brave because they were finally cornered, like, whatever it is. Right? You know, in Batman, when it's like, He's in the cave, and he's gotta get out. And nobody's ever made it out. I don't know if you're ever this part of the Dark Knight or or one of one of the Batman movies.

And it's usually when they lost it all, when they had the heart break, when they hit rock bottom, when they had no choice but to be brave because they were finally cornered, like, whatever it is. Right? You know, in Batman, when it's like, He's in the cave, and he's gotta get out. And nobody's ever made it out. I don't know if you're ever this part of the Dark Knight or or one of one of the Batman movies.

31:04

And,

And,

31:05

the mentor was like, only one person's ever got out. He's like, how did he do it? He's like, he didn't use the rope. They're like, maybe, basically, he jumped with no safety net. And so the five second moment of change is

the mentor was like, only one person's ever got out. He's like, how did he do it? He's like, he didn't use the rope. They're like, maybe, basically, he jumped with no safety net. And so the five second moment of change is

31:17

the character

the character

31:18

climbs up the thing, takes off the rope, doesn't make this jump, he's gonna die, but actually because he was gonna because of that makes the leap, it actually makes it. That's the transformation

climbs up the thing, takes off the rope, doesn't make this jump, he's gonna die, but actually because he was gonna because of that makes the leap, it actually makes it. That's the transformation

31:28

everything is based. Ella Stories. Yeah. If you don't know what's the five second moment of change for the for the main character,

everything is based. Ella Stories. Yeah. If you don't know what's the five second moment of change for the for the main character,

31:35

you don't really have a great story.

you don't really have a great story.

31:37

How does this

How does this

31:39

apply or not apply to, like, the story of a company? Like, I'm trying to tell the story for a passage or you know, you think of all these companies, oh, we start in a garage, we have no money, that's what we believe. Right? You have Airbnb. You have, like, the ObamaOs,

apply or not apply to, like, the story of a company? Like, I'm trying to tell the story for a passage or you know, you think of all these companies, oh, we start in a garage, we have no money, that's what we believe. Right? You have Airbnb. You have, like, the ObamaOs,

31:51

and then You have Brian Chesky who's, like, going to the houses, and he's, like, taking photos with his own camera. He's, like, doing the hustle. It's, like, these founders really believed. So how does

and then You have Brian Chesky who's, like, going to the houses, and he's, like, taking photos with his own camera. He's, like, doing the hustle. It's, like, these founders really believed. So how does

32:02

How do we take these ideas and apply it to what we're building? The origin story of all snowy Malley companies is is similar. So let's take Airbnb, for example,

How do we take these ideas and apply it to what we're building? The origin story of all snowy Malley companies is is similar. So let's take Airbnb, for example,

32:10

What was the, you know, moment of change?

What was the, you know, moment of change?

32:12

The moment of change the the origin story of Airbnb is

The moment of change the the origin story of Airbnb is

32:17

we were,

we were,

32:19

broke jokes who had, right, the beginning of the rom com, we were broke jokes.

broke jokes who had, right, the beginning of the rom com, we were broke jokes.

32:24

Not only did we not have a successful company, we didn't even have an idea.

Not only did we not have a successful company, we didn't even have an idea.

32:27

And so, like, we were

And so, like, we were

32:29

the worst situation for an entrepreneur.

the worst situation for an entrepreneur.

32:32

No money, no team, no idea, no respect, no reputation, no nothing. Right? Even worse wrong founding DNA. We were adult designers, and the narrative was, you gotta be an engineer to build a, you gotta be a developer to build a a tech tech company.

No money, no team, no idea, no respect, no reputation, no nothing. Right? Even worse wrong founding DNA. We were adult designers, and the narrative was, you gotta be an engineer to build a, you gotta be a developer to build a a tech tech company.

32:46

And so,

And so,

32:47

well, the moment of change was basically they

well, the moment of change was basically they

32:50

I think they had no money. Like, they didn't have enough money to

I think they had no money. Like, they didn't have enough money to

32:54

pay rent or something like that. So they the moment of change is basically one of them had a crazy idea to be like, Hey. What if we've

pay rent or something like that. So they the moment of change is basically one of them had a crazy idea to be like, Hey. What if we've

33:01

rent out our space here for this there's a design conference account. What if it create a, like,

rent out our space here for this there's a design conference account. What if it create a, like,

33:08

bed and breakfasts for people who are coming? Because all the hotels are sold out.

bed and breakfasts for people who are coming? Because all the hotels are sold out.

33:11

The bed and breakfast, we don't have a we don't have a hotel. And they're like, well, we could just put an air mattress here, and they laughed, and they were like, whatever. And then three people came, stayed paid the money and had a great time. They're like, holy shit. This might be a thing. And then there's several holy shit moments. Right? There's, like,

The bed and breakfast, we don't have a we don't have a hotel. And they're like, well, we could just put an air mattress here, and they laughed, and they were like, whatever. And then three people came, stayed paid the money and had a great time. They're like, holy shit. This might be a thing. And then there's several holy shit moments. Right? There's, like,

33:27

We ran out of money again. So we did the Obama O' serial thing. We,

We ran out of money again. So we did the Obama O' serial thing. We,

33:31

they tell the story about when they were getting knocked by a big, by the Samuel brothers of Rocket Internet. They were cloning their company and gonna kill them. And he tells that story. It's like,

they tell the story about when they were getting knocked by a big, by the Samuel brothers of Rocket Internet. They were cloning their company and gonna kill them. And he tells that story. It's like,

33:41

we, you know, face this life for death death moment, and then we had to make a decision, and we changed. We went from being scared to being like, alright, we're gonna compete with these guys. We're gonna beat them.

we, you know, face this life for death death moment, and then we had to make a decision, and we changed. We went from being scared to being like, alright, we're gonna compete with these guys. We're gonna beat them.

33:51

And that's the moment. That's that's what the each of those micro stories is about. The way I've learned this is you have,

And that's the moment. That's that's what the each of those micro stories is about. The way I've learned this is you have,

33:57

what's called signature stories.

what's called signature stories.

33:59

So your signature stories are

So your signature stories are

34:02

the, like, the four or five stories that if I only could tell you these four or five, you would know everything there is to know really about me. So, for example, your origin story. Like, for you with write a passage, what's the origin story? Like, I'm assuming you didn't just create this because

the, like, the four or five stories that if I only could tell you these four or five, you would know everything there is to know really about me. So, for example, your origin story. Like, for you with write a passage, what's the origin story? Like, I'm assuming you didn't just create this because

34:17

life was good.

life was good.

34:18

You already were good at everything.

You already were good at everything.

34:20

And, and, you know, there must have been some moment where you were like, I gotta do something here. You helped me improve my origin? Yeah. Give me what it is right now. Alright. So I

And, and, you know, there must have been some moment where you were like, I gotta do something here. You helped me improve my origin? Yeah. Give me what it is right now. Alright. So I

34:30

worked this job at this New York advertising agency, and I was super intimidated by my boss. He's like six four, you know, big beer. He's just not, like, super welcoming guy.

worked this job at this New York advertising agency, and I was super intimidated by my boss. He's like six four, you know, big beer. He's just not, like, super welcoming guy.

34:41

Super talented, super talented. And I wasn't doing super well in my job, and he sort of calls me into his office. And I was working on a pitch deck for Cardi. But trying to be all impressive and stuff like that. And

Super talented, super talented. And I wasn't doing super well in my job, and he sort of calls me into his office. And I was working on a pitch deck for Cardi. But trying to be all impressive and stuff like that. And

34:53

I wrote in the pitch deck that

I wrote in the pitch deck that

34:56

the idea that we had was gonna be epic.

the idea that we had was gonna be epic.

34:59

And he was like, yo, that is not a good word to be using. You're not he said something to the effect of. You're not in college anymore.

And he was like, yo, that is not a good word to be using. You're not he said something to the effect of. You're not in college anymore.

35:06

We don't write like that here. And

We don't write like that here. And

35:09

then through writing that sentence, he then started saying, hey, you really need to improve your writing. You're just not a good writer. And I was like, well, you know, I tried learning to write in school. I don't even like writing. My cold job is writing, and I gotta get good at this. So that was in, like, November

then through writing that sentence, he then started saying, hey, you really need to improve your writing. You're just not a good writer. And I was like, well, you know, I tried learning to write in school. I don't even like writing. My cold job is writing, and I gotta get good at this. So that was in, like, November

35:25

then we go through December. I get a raise. I'm like, oh my goodness. This is gonna be great. Life's going well. Then January fifth,

then we go through December. I get a raise. I'm like, oh my goodness. This is gonna be great. Life's going well. Then January fifth,

35:32

seven months out of college,

seven months out of college,

35:34

I get laid off.

I get laid off.

35:36

And,

And,

35:37

of course, in my head,

of course, in my head,

35:39

I'm like,

I'm like,

35:40

I got laid off because I'm not a good writer.

I got laid off because I'm not a good writer.

35:44

Uh-oh, I gotta learn this craft, but I don't even like writing.

Uh-oh, I gotta learn this craft, but I don't even like writing.

35:47

Then I'm seeing all these people who are good at writing and they're just making moves on the internet and stuff. So I spend

Then I'm seeing all these people who are good at writing and they're just making moves on the internet and stuff. So I spend

35:53

years

years

35:54

two, three years. And I'm learning how to ride to start building an audience. And during that time, people reach out to me. They're like, hey, you're pretty good at this. Can you start teaching me how to do it? And I'm like, wait, I learned all these things on my own. I had to figure these things out at a desperation for how to learn how to write.

two, three years. And I'm learning how to ride to start building an audience. And during that time, people reach out to me. They're like, hey, you're pretty good at this. Can you start teaching me how to do it? And I'm like, wait, I learned all these things on my own. I had to figure these things out at a desperation for how to learn how to write.

36:10

Then that led in to write a passage, and that's how the company got started.

Then that led in to write a passage, and that's how the company got started.

36:14

Okay. Great. So let's workshop that. Cool. Alright. So,

Okay. Great. So let's workshop that. Cool. Alright. So,

36:17

Let's go back to the origin. Let's do so there's a beginning middle then. K. Beginning. You're start of your rom com. You're working in a job. You're not you said you're not doing so well. Your boss kind of embarrasses you,

Let's go back to the origin. Let's do so there's a beginning middle then. K. Beginning. You're start of your rom com. You're working in a job. You're not you said you're not doing so well. Your boss kind of embarrasses you,

36:28

and you end up getting laid off at one of of of the movie.

and you end up getting laid off at one of of of the movie.

36:33

I think to make that part just to make that part better. So I think you have the element there. Act three is,

I think to make that part just to make that part better. So I think you have the element there. Act three is,

36:38

you know, so we know act one is gonna be Don't like my job and my job doesn't like me. I mean, even worse, my job doesn't like me. Right?

you know, so we know act one is gonna be Don't like my job and my job doesn't like me. I mean, even worse, my job doesn't like me. Right?

36:46

Second part is I'm not doing so well, and I'm kind of embarrassed I'm kind of intimidated by my boss. Great. Super relatable, super likable. All that.

Second part is I'm not doing so well, and I'm kind of embarrassed I'm kind of intimidated by my boss. Great. Super relatable, super likable. All that.

36:54

You have a moment where you got specifically embarrassed around the epic thing, calling you, like, a college kid or whatever, and you're like, okay, hopelessness.

You have a moment where you got specifically embarrassed around the epic thing, calling you, like, a college kid or whatever, and you're like, okay, hopelessness.

37:02

Max Payne got laid off. Cool. And, yeah, I'm sure you had some feelings about that. Act three is now I get paid millions of dollars to teach people writing, and I'm doing a podcast interviewing my writing heroes, and they're like, dude, you're awesome. I'm a big fan.

Max Payne got laid off. Cool. And, yeah, I'm sure you had some feelings about that. Act three is now I get paid millions of dollars to teach people writing, and I'm doing a podcast interviewing my writing heroes, and they're like, dude, you're awesome. I'm a big fan.

37:15

Okay. Great. So we have the element of a amazing story. How do we actually make it better? Yeah. So the first part is

Okay. Great. So we have the element of a amazing story. How do we actually make it better? Yeah. So the first part is

37:21

your act one, didn't focus on the pain enough of the intention and the obstacle and the feelings you had at that time. So for example, you said I wasn't doing too good at the time. And then you're like, but then I got promoted or erased. So I don't know what that is. Right? You know, you might also leave the promotion or raised out. Doesn't really add to the story. And sort of confusing, conflicting messages. Right?

your act one, didn't focus on the pain enough of the intention and the obstacle and the feelings you had at that time. So for example, you said I wasn't doing too good at the time. And then you're like, but then I got promoted or erased. So I don't know what that is. Right? You know, you might also leave the promotion or raised out. Doesn't really add to the story. And sort of confusing, conflicting messages. Right?

37:41

Never let the truth get in the way of a great story. Let's let's start with that. So why did you not think you were doing well?

Never let the truth get in the way of a great story. Let's let's start with that. So why did you not think you were doing well?

37:47

The company was constantly trying to figure out what do we do with this person? I I I can't believe this happened, but he literally

The company was constantly trying to figure out what do we do with this person? I I I can't believe this happened, but he literally

37:54

brought me into his office And he goes, I need you to stop thinking, like, Jeff Bezos. And I was like,

brought me into his office And he goes, I need you to stop thinking, like, Jeff Bezos. And I was like,

38:00

can you explain? He's like, do your job. You are a sales guy. Focus on that don't want you focused on the the future of media and where that's going. And so there's just a lot of tension there, and he and I never really got along that well. Right. So, yeah, I think you wanna I bet you if you zoomed in, go back to the memory bank, and you remember, like, any moments where you felt the opposite of how you're gonna feel at at the end, you feel really proud and you've accomplished and you've overcome. But at the beginning, you probably felt

can you explain? He's like, do your job. You are a sales guy. Focus on that don't want you focused on the the future of media and where that's going. And so there's just a lot of tension there, and he and I never really got along that well. Right. So, yeah, I think you wanna I bet you if you zoomed in, go back to the memory bank, and you remember, like, any moments where you felt the opposite of how you're gonna feel at at the end, you feel really proud and you've accomplished and you've overcome. But at the beginning, you probably felt

38:26

embarrassed,

embarrassed,

38:27

you know, somewhat

you know, somewhat

38:29

insecure,

insecure,

38:30

whatever. So, for example, if you were, like, I,

whatever. So, for example, if you were, like, I,

38:34

yeah, I remember there was this new guy that just got hired.

yeah, I remember there was this new guy that just got hired.

38:37

And I was training I was, like, to, like, welcome him and train him a little bit. And then he got promoted before I did. And I was like, I'm doing something wrong. Or, you know, at my performance review, I remember there's a category for pros, and he had, like, three words, and then cons or whatever, like, needs needs improvement was huge. Right? A little anecdote like that, I think will, like, make that more real.

And I was training I was, like, to, like, welcome him and train him a little bit. And then he got promoted before I did. And I was like, I'm doing something wrong. Or, you know, at my performance review, I remember there's a category for pros, and he had, like, three words, and then cons or whatever, like, needs needs improvement was huge. Right? A little anecdote like that, I think will, like, make that more real.

38:56

Of,

Of,

38:57

what was the moments where you set where if you said I wasn't doing so well that it really hit home for you, you know, something like that. Let me just wrap everything we've spoken about into what I'm gathering is

what was the moments where you set where if you said I wasn't doing so well that it really hit home for you, you know, something like that. Let me just wrap everything we've spoken about into what I'm gathering is

39:08

it's the rom com. I got my beginning. I got my end. I want a perfect yin yang between them. Okay? Then what I want is I wanna build up to those five seconds of change. So I want one emotion

it's the rom com. I got my beginning. I got my end. I want a perfect yin yang between them. Okay? Then what I want is I wanna build up to those five seconds of change. So I want one emotion

39:20

lead up to that change. That is the moment of of of tension where something pivots,

lead up to that change. That is the moment of of of tension where something pivots,

39:25

then I get to the end. There is the opposite. And then what I wanna do is intention

then I get to the end. There is the opposite. And then what I wanna do is intention

39:30

and outcome obstacle.

and outcome obstacle.

39:31

Intention and obstacle. Thank you. So my intention is I wanna be good. I wanna be good at my job. I wanna be valued. I wanna be respected. Actually, I could even bring it into, like, I want to be a worthy human being. And I'm in my first job, and I'm like, dude, you have no skills. So I have that. And I'm like, my job is about being a writer.

Intention and obstacle. Thank you. So my intention is I wanna be good. I wanna be good at my job. I wanna be valued. I wanna be respected. Actually, I could even bring it into, like, I want to be a worthy human being. And I'm in my first job, and I'm like, dude, you have no skills. So I have that. And I'm like, my job is about being a writer.

39:50

And my boss thinks

And my boss thinks

39:53

that I'm not very good, so now I'm my obstacle. So that's sort of what I'm getting from you. Right. Yes. Exactly. You you nailed it.

that I'm not very good, so now I'm my obstacle. So that's sort of what I'm getting from you. Right. Yes. Exactly. You you nailed it.

40:00

Now let's go to the five second. Because what you said was basically some version of your, like, the beginning was pretty good. And the ending was pretty good. The middle, you were like, so then I got laid off, and so then I started thinking about, well, I wanna improve my writing. Sounds like a arbitrary epiphany. Maybe there was a mentor that told you something or maybe you read something online

Now let's go to the five second. Because what you said was basically some version of your, like, the beginning was pretty good. And the ending was pretty good. The middle, you were like, so then I got laid off, and so then I started thinking about, well, I wanna improve my writing. Sounds like a arbitrary epiphany. Maybe there was a mentor that told you something or maybe you read something online

40:17

that inspired you or maybe you had a long talk with yourself on a long walk. One night and you were like, you know what? Screw this. Right? It's probably a moment when you decided, actually. I'm gonna get good at this. That's usually a very important part of every story. It was like,

that inspired you or maybe you had a long talk with yourself on a long walk. One night and you were like, you know what? Screw this. Right? It's probably a moment when you decided, actually. I'm gonna get good at this. That's usually a very important part of every story. It was like,

40:30

what triggered

what triggered

40:32

the turnaround.

the turnaround.

40:34

So you wanna know that, and then you wanna explain that part.

So you wanna know that, and then you wanna explain that part.

40:37

And then you basically were like, and then I got better, and then everything was great. And it's like, whoa, whoa, what do you you fast forwarded the montage too fast. Like, what triggered the turnaround?

And then you basically were like, and then I got better, and then everything was great. And it's like, whoa, whoa, what do you you fast forwarded the montage too fast. Like, what triggered the turnaround?

40:46

And then what'd you actually go do,

And then what'd you actually go do,

40:49

and not, like, in a long specifics, but like, what's the first thing you started to do to get momentum? And then what was, like, maybe some resistance you felt that you overcame? Because, like, you know, the Pixar rules for storytelling on a PC is twenty two. Yeah. The most important one, I don't know what the twenty two say, but I remember one, which was,

and not, like, in a long specifics, but like, what's the first thing you started to do to get momentum? And then what was, like, maybe some resistance you felt that you overcame? Because, like, you know, the Pixar rules for storytelling on a PC is twenty two. Yeah. The most important one, I don't know what the twenty two say, but I remember one, which was,

41:06

something like the hero doesn't have to win

something like the hero doesn't have to win

41:09

the audience loves the hero because of the way they try.

the audience loves the hero because of the way they try.

41:12

And that was really important to me. I was like, oh, that's right. Every underdog story is lovable because of how hard they try.

And that was really important to me. I was like, oh, that's right. Every underdog story is lovable because of how hard they try.

41:20

And if somebody just tries something and immediately it works, that's not a very good story, and you're not very, like, you don't feel good for that.

And if somebody just tries something and immediately it works, that's not a very good story, and you're not very, like, you don't feel good for that.

41:27

So you gotta say what you tried, what resistance you felt, and then how you overcame that resistance.

So you gotta say what you tried, what resistance you felt, and then how you overcame that resistance.

41:33

It doesn't have to be a long thing but you wanna make it feel real. And the last thing I'm I'm kinda emphasizing to you that I think anybody can do in their storytelling is,

It doesn't have to be a long thing but you wanna make it feel real. And the last thing I'm I'm kinda emphasizing to you that I think anybody can do in their storytelling is,

41:42

You're not saying what happened.

You're not saying what happened.

41:44

You're zooming into moments to explain how you felt with, ideally, some relatable

You're zooming into moments to explain how you felt with, ideally, some relatable

41:49

visual or audio, like, moment. So it's like, I remember he said this to me, and I'll never forget these three words. He said, you know, like, whatever. Some some sentence or I remember looking around

visual or audio, like, moment. So it's like, I remember he said this to me, and I'll never forget these three words. He said, you know, like, whatever. Some some sentence or I remember looking around

42:03

and,

and,

42:04

you know, there was nobody else there. Like, in to Tony Robbins, I'm a big Tony Robbins fan. He does an amazing job telling his story. He's like, I remember sitting in my apartment. I looked in the bathroom, and I was doing I had because I used to do dishes in the bathtub because my my dishwasher didn't work. So I'd soap up the bathtub. He's All he's trying to say is I'm a loser. I was a loser. Now I'm super successful.

you know, there was nobody else there. Like, in to Tony Robbins, I'm a big Tony Robbins fan. He does an amazing job telling his story. He's like, I remember sitting in my apartment. I looked in the bathroom, and I was doing I had because I used to do dishes in the bathtub because my my dishwasher didn't work. So I'd soap up the bathtub. He's All he's trying to say is I'm a loser. I was a loser. Now I'm super successful.

42:24

Why? Because I'm Tony Robbins, and I figured it out. And you can too. But first he has to convince you that he used to be a loser. Otherwise, the whole Tony Robbins stick doesn't work. So he's like, how do I convince somebody I'm a loser? I could say that I wasn't doing too well. Or I could say that I used to have to wash my dishes in a bathtub because that paints a picture of a loser. He's like, I remember I was saying that he says I was sit in my apartment And I didn't have any furniture because I didn't have any money. So I just had this one chair. Like, I didn't have a sofa. I had a hard chair that I used to sit on. He's like, it was just a chair. He's like, and I remember, the song was playing that was like, there's some song where he's like, I don't have friend, something like that. It's only me in my chair. And he's like, dude, that's me. It's just me in the stupid chair.

Why? Because I'm Tony Robbins, and I figured it out. And you can too. But first he has to convince you that he used to be a loser. Otherwise, the whole Tony Robbins stick doesn't work. So he's like, how do I convince somebody I'm a loser? I could say that I wasn't doing too well. Or I could say that I used to have to wash my dishes in a bathtub because that paints a picture of a loser. He's like, I remember I was saying that he says I was sit in my apartment And I didn't have any furniture because I didn't have any money. So I just had this one chair. Like, I didn't have a sofa. I had a hard chair that I used to sit on. He's like, it was just a chair. He's like, and I remember, the song was playing that was like, there's some song where he's like, I don't have friend, something like that. It's only me in my chair. And he's like, dude, that's me. It's just me in the stupid chair.

43:03

And he's like, so I went for a run is, like, even though I hadn't run-in years, I was overweight. I went for a run and even even when my lungs were burning, I was like, no. You you may be a loser at all things alike, but you're not gonna lose this run. And he tells the story, and it's kind of inspiring when you're hearing this. And he's just zoomed into one moment that's visual, that's audio, that's a feeling, and he's convinced you of that before state so that the after has some impact. The two things that I'm getting there is, first,

And he's like, so I went for a run is, like, even though I hadn't run-in years, I was overweight. I went for a run and even even when my lungs were burning, I was like, no. You you may be a loser at all things alike, but you're not gonna lose this run. And he tells the story, and it's kind of inspiring when you're hearing this. And he's just zoomed into one moment that's visual, that's audio, that's a feeling, and he's convinced you of that before state so that the after has some impact. The two things that I'm getting there is, first,

43:28

you

you

43:29

can tell a story

can tell a story

43:31

A story is not a record of what happened. Absolutely. It is not you saying this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. It is almost this transformation. It's a oh, interesting. Story is just a change.

A story is not a record of what happened. Absolutely. It is not you saying this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. It is almost this transformation. It's a oh, interesting. Story is just a change.

43:44

The world is one way, and then it was another way. I was one way, and then I was another way. My company was failing, and then it was succeeding. All the story is is just change.

The world is one way, and then it was another way. I was one way, and then I was another way. My company was failing, and then it was succeeding. All the story is is just change.

43:52

You only wanna include

You only wanna include

43:54

the what happened

the what happened

43:55

so much as it explains how that change came to be.

so much as it explains how that change came to be.

44:00

Yeah, it's not as just a a timeline of events.

Yeah, it's not as just a a timeline of events.

44:03

And then you're also really queuing into emotion.

And then you're also really queuing into emotion.

44:06

Yeah.

Yeah.

44:08

How come? That's what, like, people respond to, you know.

How come? That's what, like, people respond to, you know.

44:12

Like in my writing course, I used to teach,

Like in my writing course, I used to teach,

44:15

I used to teach this one thing, that I was like, you know, you wanna work backwards from the from the emotion.

I used to teach this one thing, that I was like, you know, you wanna work backwards from the from the emotion.

44:20

I learned this from, a guy who used to be my my, I don't know, intern or something like that. I might rehire him when he was twenty years old Steve Bartlett. Today, a lot of people know Steve Bartlett

I learned this from, a guy who used to be my my, I don't know, intern or something like that. I might rehire him when he was twenty years old Steve Bartlett. Today, a lot of people know Steve Bartlett

44:29

He's got a big podcast called diary's CEO. He's

He's got a big podcast called diary's CEO. He's

44:32

built a company. He's done a bunch of these on Dragon's den. Like, he's a famous guy now.

built a company. He's done a bunch of these on Dragon's den. Like, he's a famous guy now.

44:37

I met Steve when I was twenty. Alright. When he was twenty, I was twenty five, maybe. And, he flew from the UK. He lived in our office,

I met Steve when I was twenty. Alright. When he was twenty, I was twenty five, maybe. And, he flew from the UK. He lived in our office,

44:44

like, slept in our office, and he wanted to work with us. And we worked together for, I don't know, nine months or a year or something like that.

like, slept in our office, and he wanted to work with us. And we worked together for, I don't know, nine months or a year or something like that.

44:52

And Steve was awesome in a bunch of ways that he was obviously just like a twenty one year old in a bunch of other ways. But the awesome thing I remember was he was like,

And Steve was awesome in a bunch of ways that he was obviously just like a twenty one year old in a bunch of other ways. But the awesome thing I remember was he was like,

44:59

He told me something he goes, I just think about

He told me something he goes, I just think about

45:02

what is Jenny in her bedroom gonna think when she sees this? Like, who's Jenny? Who's Jenny? What are we what are we talking about? He's like, Oh, like, if we're making a piece of content that's gonna go on social media, social media is Jenny in her bed laying down, just scrolling, just swiping.

what is Jenny in her bedroom gonna think when she sees this? Like, who's Jenny? Who's Jenny? What are we what are we talking about? He's like, Oh, like, if we're making a piece of content that's gonna go on social media, social media is Jenny in her bed laying down, just scrolling, just swiping.

45:16

And she's like, Basically,

And she's like, Basically,

45:18

this has to make Jenny, Jenny, like, stop,

this has to make Jenny, Jenny, like, stop,

45:21

think something,

think something,

45:22

and share this with their friends. Otherwise, it's going nowhere There was no point in writing this thing or doing this thing because it created no

and share this with their friends. Otherwise, it's going nowhere There was no point in writing this thing or doing this thing because it created no

45:29

reaction from the person. They're just gonna keep swiping. The world is full of infinite content. We only stop at things that we have some reaction to.

reaction from the person. They're just gonna keep swiping. The world is full of infinite content. We only stop at things that we have some reaction to.

45:36

And,

And,

45:37

so I stored that away. And then I heard it the same idea from another person. How you know a good good idea. The Buzzfeed guy goes, everything we do at Buzzfeed

so I stored that away. And then I heard it the same idea from another person. How you know a good good idea. The Buzzfeed guy goes, everything we do at Buzzfeed

45:47

is about Debbie at her desk. I'm like Jenny in her bedroom, Debbie at her desk. Scott on here. She he goes, he goes, the most powerful network in the world is the board at work network. He goes, all when Buzzfeed was, like, growing like crazy at the time. He's like, Buzzfeed basically taps into if someone's bored at work, and they just wanna, like, you know, have a distraction for five minutes, we wanna make a piece of content that will distract them and get them to forward it to a bunch of other people who are also bored at work. Right. And that's the whole network is the bored at work network. Alright. Second time, I heard the idea. Then I heard the idea a third time.

is about Debbie at her desk. I'm like Jenny in her bedroom, Debbie at her desk. Scott on here. She he goes, he goes, the most powerful network in the world is the board at work network. He goes, all when Buzzfeed was, like, growing like crazy at the time. He's like, Buzzfeed basically taps into if someone's bored at work, and they just wanna, like, you know, have a distraction for five minutes, we wanna make a piece of content that will distract them and get them to forward it to a bunch of other people who are also bored at work. Right. And that's the whole network is the bored at work network. Alright. Second time, I heard the idea. Then I heard the idea a third time.

46:18

This guy, Chris Quigley,

This guy, Chris Quigley,

46:19

he ran a advertising agency that would make videos go viral. And at the time, I was like, going viral is like a lottery ticket. Like,

he ran a advertising agency that would make videos go viral. And at the time, I was like, going viral is like a lottery ticket. Like,

46:26

how do you do a viral video? I don't know. It's just like something amazing must happen. I go, what's your hit rate on virality? Like, one out of a hundred, two out of a hundred? He goes, no. Like, eight out of ten. I go eight out of ten. And he's like, yeah, look. He showed me their their views. I was like, how do you do this? And he's like, well, you know, over time, the more viral videos you make, you have, like, a base of an audience. But he's like, that just gets you, like, Some people will see it. But how viral goes is how much they share it. He goes, so what we do is we work backwards from an emotion. He goes, the only things people will share

how do you do a viral video? I don't know. It's just like something amazing must happen. I go, what's your hit rate on virality? Like, one out of a hundred, two out of a hundred? He goes, no. Like, eight out of ten. I go eight out of ten. And he's like, yeah, look. He showed me their their views. I was like, how do you do this? And he's like, well, you know, over time, the more viral videos you make, you have, like, a base of an audience. But he's like, that just gets you, like, Some people will see it. But how viral goes is how much they share it. He goes, so what we do is we work backwards from an emotion. He goes, the only things people will share

46:56

is things that are l o l w t f o m g a w w he, like, all the acronyms for all the emotions. So, like, oh my god.

is things that are l o l w t f o m g a w w he, like, all the acronyms for all the emotions. So, like, oh my god.

47:04

Wow.

Wow.

47:05

Like,

Like,

47:06

like, like, if it doesn't do that, nobody will share it. So he goes, we first start with this is the desired reaction we have. Then we'll write a script or write a write a a blog post or whatever, and then we'll go check. Do we think that's gonna create this reaction to somebody? No. Alright. Let's juice it up. How do we make it more funny? How do we make it more outrageous? How do we make it more endearing and heartwarming? Like, whatever those are. And, so once I heard that three times, I was like, okay. I get it. I need to create a reaction out of the average person just in the bedroom or at their desk. And I need to start with the emotion. I my target emotion and then work backwards from that. Right? The thing that will create that emotion. Yeah. It's funny because

like, like, if it doesn't do that, nobody will share it. So he goes, we first start with this is the desired reaction we have. Then we'll write a script or write a write a a blog post or whatever, and then we'll go check. Do we think that's gonna create this reaction to somebody? No. Alright. Let's juice it up. How do we make it more funny? How do we make it more outrageous? How do we make it more endearing and heartwarming? Like, whatever those are. And, so once I heard that three times, I was like, okay. I get it. I need to create a reaction out of the average person just in the bedroom or at their desk. And I need to start with the emotion. I my target emotion and then work backwards from that. Right? The thing that will create that emotion. Yeah. It's funny because

47:45

When you write, you're like, okay. I'm publishing this on the internet. A bunch of people are gonna read it, you know, get a big audience. And so you think of, hey, there's all these people. But, actually, you're just writing to Debbie in her bedroom or saly at her desk, you know, and people consume your content alone.

When you write, you're like, okay. I'm publishing this on the internet. A bunch of people are gonna read it, you know, get a big audience. And so you think of, hey, there's all these people. But, actually, you're just writing to Debbie in her bedroom or saly at her desk, you know, and people consume your content alone.

48:03

And when you're writing, you are writing to one person in one place at one moment in time. And you have to remember that. Because the nature of the connection that you're trying to make is different. And to double down on that idea

And when you're writing, you are writing to one person in one place at one moment in time. And you have to remember that. Because the nature of the connection that you're trying to make is different. And to double down on that idea

48:17

in a lot of our media environment, especially platform like Twitter when you scroll Twitter. Like, you're on the throne, you're on the bus, you're waiting in line, you're, you know, your friends, seven minutes late. You're like, come on, where the heck are you? You know, I'm trying to reservations coming up, and you're just sort of browsing, browsing, browsing, browsing, and your brain is only, like, halfway on. And if you can really

in a lot of our media environment, especially platform like Twitter when you scroll Twitter. Like, you're on the throne, you're on the bus, you're waiting in line, you're, you know, your friends, seven minutes late. You're like, come on, where the heck are you? You know, I'm trying to reservations coming up, and you're just sort of browsing, browsing, browsing, browsing, and your brain is only, like, halfway on. And if you can really

48:37

first, understand your own state when you're in that environment. And then right to the person who's in that state, now you have a very keen sense of Who is this person, and you're writing for one person, even though if you're looking, you're saying, hey, hundred nineteen thousand impressions,

first, understand your own state when you're in that environment. And then right to the person who's in that state, now you have a very keen sense of Who is this person, and you're writing for one person, even though if you're looking, you're saying, hey, hundred nineteen thousand impressions,

48:51

Those are not a hundred nineteen thousand people at once, like a football game. They're a hundred nineteen thousand individual people at a hundred nineteen thousand individual instances in time

Those are not a hundred nineteen thousand people at once, like a football game. They're a hundred nineteen thousand individual people at a hundred nineteen thousand individual instances in time

49:00

if you think like that, you communicate

if you think like that, you communicate

49:02

very differently.

very differently.

49:04

Yes. Perfectly said you're writing to one person at one moment in time. That's, I think, a very good point And the other, thing that this reminded me of is, do you know this person miss Excel? Are you seeing this person? Yeah. Yeah. So she,

Yes. Perfectly said you're writing to one person at one moment in time. That's, I think, a very good point And the other, thing that this reminded me of is, do you know this person miss Excel? Are you seeing this person? Yeah. Yeah. So she,

49:16

for anybody who doesn't know, she's basically, like, an sell influencer for lack of a better word. She basically teaches people excel tricks, but the reason she got popular is she went on TikTok. She started dancing while, like, putting an Excel trick on the screen or tip on the screen.

for anybody who doesn't know, she's basically, like, an sell influencer for lack of a better word. She basically teaches people excel tricks, but the reason she got popular is she went on TikTok. She started dancing while, like, putting an Excel trick on the screen or tip on the screen.

49:30

Weird combo, but it works. I was reading some interview with her, and they were like, how do you create your content. Like, what's what's your process? I was like, oh, I'm curious what her process is. And she goes,

Weird combo, but it works. I was reading some interview with her, and they were like, how do you create your content. Like, what's what's your process? I was like, oh, I'm curious what her process is. And she goes,

49:39

I I don't she's like, it's kinda weird. She was like,

I I don't she's like, it's kinda weird. She was like,

49:42

Most people, if you say, what's the process? And they're, like, consistency,

Most people, if you say, what's the process? And they're, like, consistency,

49:46

like, wake up at a certain time, start right away, You gotta write every day. You gotta post at a certain time. You gotta do all these things. She's like, I don't do any of that. She goes, I literally

like, wake up at a certain time, start right away, You gotta write every day. You gotta post at a certain time. You gotta do all these things. She's like, I don't do any of that. She goes, I literally

49:56

first,

first,

49:57

like, just changed my own energy. She's like, I weren't I she's like, I'm kinda wimbledon that way, but, like, I basically get myself into a peak state of mind. Like, I get myself into a certain mood and a certain certain mind where I feel

like, just changed my own energy. She's like, I weren't I she's like, I'm kinda wimbledon that way, but, like, I basically get myself into a peak state of mind. Like, I get myself into a certain mood and a certain certain mind where I feel

50:09

magnetic. I feel charismatic. I feel charismatic. I feel energetic. I feel it's just like it's, like,

magnetic. I feel charismatic. I feel charismatic. I feel energetic. I feel it's just like it's, like,

50:14

It's like, literally like a science called energetics. She's like, I work on my energy, and two things happen. One, ideas start coming to me much faster than if I sat down and said, what are some ideas I need to come post some content today. And so she's like, I just work myself and I say, I let ideas come meet, an idea will hit. And as soon as it hits, she's like, I run to my phone, hit record, and I just do it because I believe all content is just energy transferred through the phone. It's my energy shifting to you, my emotion that I've how I feel about this. If I feel excited about this insight that I have or excited about this this tip that I have, I wanna get you excited about that tip too. And the best way to do that is for me to be there first. And I think this is a very underrated thing for writers because most writers,

It's like, literally like a science called energetics. She's like, I work on my energy, and two things happen. One, ideas start coming to me much faster than if I sat down and said, what are some ideas I need to come post some content today. And so she's like, I just work myself and I say, I let ideas come meet, an idea will hit. And as soon as it hits, she's like, I run to my phone, hit record, and I just do it because I believe all content is just energy transferred through the phone. It's my energy shifting to you, my emotion that I've how I feel about this. If I feel excited about this insight that I have or excited about this this tip that I have, I wanna get you excited about that tip too. And the best way to do that is for me to be there first. And I think this is a very underrated thing for writers because most writers,

50:55

they're not performers.

they're not performers.

50:57

All performers know this. No athlete goes on the field without

All performers know this. No athlete goes on the field without

51:01

being warmed up and being hiked up. No stage performer goes on stage just kinda cold and low energy.

being warmed up and being hiked up. No stage performer goes on stage just kinda cold and low energy.

51:08

But almost every writer starts cold and low energy and just sits there somewhat miserably.

But almost every writer starts cold and low energy and just sits there somewhat miserably.

51:13

And, and there's even some weird glory from, like, this, like,

And, and there's even some weird glory from, like, this, like,

51:18

I don't know, this, like, pain that's martyrship of, like, how you need to be as a writer. I think that's all stupid.

I don't know, this, like, pain that's martyrship of, like, how you need to be as a writer. I think that's all stupid.

51:24

I think it's very similar to performing in any other way. I think you should get yourself a new great state of mind and then have that energy and then sit down and write and let flow and let that energy rip through you so that the the other person who reads it is gonna feel the same excitement you have about the insight. Or feel the same excitement you have about this plan or whatever it is. You know, you want that to come with it. And a lot of times when people, right, have this idea, they're away from the computer, like, they're at the bar with their friends, they're on a walk with somebody else or thanksgiving dinner. They're like, man,

I think it's very similar to performing in any other way. I think you should get yourself a new great state of mind and then have that energy and then sit down and write and let flow and let that energy rip through you so that the the other person who reads it is gonna feel the same excitement you have about the insight. Or feel the same excitement you have about this plan or whatever it is. You know, you want that to come with it. And a lot of times when people, right, have this idea, they're away from the computer, like, they're at the bar with their friends, they're on a walk with somebody else or thanksgiving dinner. They're like, man,

51:52

you know, auntie,

you know, auntie,

51:54

Aiti Diana, she has no idea what's going on in the world. That woman was crazy and you're so annoyed at like eleven PM at Thanksgiving, and then you try to write, like, three days later. And the problem is They're not capturing the energy that Miss Excel is capturing before she does the videos, and people end up writing in such a sober state that their writing ends up being boring and sterile.

Aiti Diana, she has no idea what's going on in the world. That woman was crazy and you're so annoyed at like eleven PM at Thanksgiving, and then you try to write, like, three days later. And the problem is They're not capturing the energy that Miss Excel is capturing before she does the videos, and people end up writing in such a sober state that their writing ends up being boring and sterile.

52:15

Hundred percent. The thing I said at the beginning of this podcast was, like, I look for things that I think are important that other people don't practice, overlook, or would be too embarrassed to say they're working on? This is an exact example of them, of one of those. Nobody wants to work on their, like, state. Their energy. They don't want, you know, miss excelled us. She's like, I'm gonna make myself magnetic before I make content. Oh, I like that. That's pretty cool. I don't even know I don't even know what that means. And that's how provocative. Right? Like, okay.

Hundred percent. The thing I said at the beginning of this podcast was, like, I look for things that I think are important that other people don't practice, overlook, or would be too embarrassed to say they're working on? This is an exact example of them, of one of those. Nobody wants to work on their, like, state. Their energy. They don't want, you know, miss excelled us. She's like, I'm gonna make myself magnetic before I make content. Oh, I like that. That's pretty cool. I don't even know I don't even know what that means. And that's how provocative. Right? Like, okay.

52:42

That's better than whatever the hell I'm feeling. When I sit down to write, okay. That's a new standard for me. I'm gonna do that. And so,

That's better than whatever the hell I'm feeling. When I sit down to write, okay. That's a new standard for me. I'm gonna do that. And so,

52:49

I think most people

I think most people

52:51

would probably in their heart and believe that this is true that if you kinda got your energy right before you did the thing, it'll probably turn out better. Nobody's gonna do it, which is the best part. It's the arbitrage. It's how a less talented person like me could do really well. Wait. Hold on here. Stop the broadcast. So, like, what So what should I do next time I sit down to write? How does this actually work? Where am I gonna dance? Do some jumping jacks? Like, what do I actually do? That's exactly right. So state changes three things. Number one, radical change in your physiology.

would probably in their heart and believe that this is true that if you kinda got your energy right before you did the thing, it'll probably turn out better. Nobody's gonna do it, which is the best part. It's the arbitrage. It's how a less talented person like me could do really well. Wait. Hold on here. Stop the broadcast. So, like, what So what should I do next time I sit down to write? How does this actually work? Where am I gonna dance? Do some jumping jacks? Like, what do I actually do? That's exactly right. So state changes three things. Number one, radical change in your physiology.

53:19

So you could sprint, you can do push ups, you can dance, you can,

So you could sprint, you can do push ups, you can dance, you can,

53:24

do twenty air squats, You can dump your face into cold water, whatever it is. You will it's the fastest way to change how you feel is a radical change in your physiology.

do twenty air squats, You can dump your face into cold water, whatever it is. You will it's the fastest way to change how you feel is a radical change in your physiology.

53:33

So first thing.

So first thing.

53:34

So do that. That's the that's the very first thing. I I have a friend who's a professional poker player. He does the same thing. He goes during a poker players are, like, notoriously degenerates. Like, you're literally sitting there in a casino, which is like the worst air pumped in environment. There's no windows,

So do that. That's the that's the very first thing. I I have a friend who's a professional poker player. He does the same thing. He goes during a poker players are, like, notoriously degenerates. Like, you're literally sitting there in a casino, which is like the worst air pumped in environment. There's no windows,

53:47

and you're around other degenerates all day. People are smoking. It's bad.

and you're around other degenerates all day. People are smoking. It's bad.

53:51

He's like a monk, and he during a tournament in the breaks, he goes in the parking lot and he does wind sprints. He's not doing it to be a better runner. He's not doing it to increase his v o two max. He's doing it because he wants to make a better decision when he gets back to the table. He knows he makes better decision than when he changes the state. And, that's part of his edge. That's why he's been a European, like, you know, covert champion,

He's like a monk, and he during a tournament in the breaks, he goes in the parking lot and he does wind sprints. He's not doing it to be a better runner. He's not doing it to increase his v o two max. He's doing it because he wants to make a better decision when he gets back to the table. He knows he makes better decision than when he changes the state. And, that's part of his edge. That's why he's been a European, like, you know, covert champion,

54:12

a tour champion, you know, several years.

a tour champion, you know, several years.

54:15

So

So

54:16

First thing is a change in your your,

First thing is a change in your your,

54:18

your state.

your state.

54:20

The second thing is a change in your focus. So what are you even focused on?

The second thing is a change in your focus. So what are you even focused on?

54:25

Like, you know, the way I imagine is I have this laser beam of focus.

Like, you know, the way I imagine is I have this laser beam of focus.

54:29

I don't know if this is true, but it's what I've convinced myself, which is if I just turn my attention to this, I will crush this. This will be amazing. If I if I put a hundred percent of my focus on this podcast right now, this podcast didn't stand a chance. And the only limit to me is just where I'm pointing the beam. And if I'm trying to point it in five different places or whatever, that's a good problem. This also works with, like, If you have to write something and there's a deadline, if your focus is on the deadline, it's the wrong place to focus. Right? If your focus is on, you know,

I don't know if this is true, but it's what I've convinced myself, which is if I just turn my attention to this, I will crush this. This will be amazing. If I if I put a hundred percent of my focus on this podcast right now, this podcast didn't stand a chance. And the only limit to me is just where I'm pointing the beam. And if I'm trying to point it in five different places or whatever, that's a good problem. This also works with, like, If you have to write something and there's a deadline, if your focus is on the deadline, it's the wrong place to focus. Right? If your focus is on, you know,

54:55

You're, how hard it is for you to do something. If you're focused on how hard it is, it's not a good place to focus. Like, you need to focus on the thing you want.

You're, how hard it is for you to do something. If you're focused on how hard it is, it's not a good place to focus. Like, you need to focus on the thing you want.

55:03

So, you know, don't focus on the wall where you're, like, trying not to crash, like, turn. Right? If it's a focus on where you're turning. And then the last one is basically your story. So what's the story you tell yourself?

So, you know, don't focus on the wall where you're, like, trying not to crash, like, turn. Right? If it's a focus on where you're turning. And then the last one is basically your story. So what's the story you tell yourself?

55:12

We all have some story that we tell ourselves. And if you improve the story, you'll change the state of mind that you have. So if I go into the store if I go into this podcast right now,

We all have some story that we tell ourselves. And if you improve the story, you'll change the state of mind that you have. So if I go into the store if I go into this podcast right now,

55:21

in my story is,

in my story is,

55:25

I'm just I'm doing a favor to David. I'm just doing this, oh, man. Like, you know, I had to drive an hour to come here and You know, this means I'm not gonna be able to do this thing and whatever. That's the wrong story. Obviously, I'm not gonna perform very well. I'm not gonna be in a peak state. Right. Whereas if my story was, there's gonna be someone who listens to one person. One person who's listening to this podcast.

I'm just I'm doing a favor to David. I'm just doing this, oh, man. Like, you know, I had to drive an hour to come here and You know, this means I'm not gonna be able to do this thing and whatever. That's the wrong story. Obviously, I'm not gonna perform very well. I'm not gonna be in a peak state. Right. Whereas if my story was, there's gonna be someone who listens to one person. One person who's listening to this podcast.

55:44

And they're gonna hear one thing that I say. One story, and they're gonna be like, wow.

And they're gonna hear one thing that I say. One story, and they're gonna be like, wow.

55:49

I can't unhear that. That was amazing. And that person was gonna go and do amazing things. So they're gonna write me a letter one day and be like, dude, that podcast you did changed my life.

I can't unhear that. That was amazing. And that person was gonna go and do amazing things. So they're gonna write me a letter one day and be like, dude, that podcast you did changed my life.

55:58

I'm gonna approach this fight. Yes, they're really. Right? I the different words will come out of my mouth if my story about what's happening is different. So similarly, if you wanna basically change your state, physiology first focus, second story third. Nice.

I'm gonna approach this fight. Yes, they're really. Right? I the different words will come out of my mouth if my story about what's happening is different. So similarly, if you wanna basically change your state, physiology first focus, second story third. Nice.

56:11

One of the

One of the

56:13

moments I had around story that I thought was

moments I had around story that I thought was

56:16

really revealing was I I work with a coach and we were talking about my writing and I was in a slump. I was down.

really revealing was I I work with a coach and we were talking about my writing and I was in a slump. I was down.

56:23

And

And

56:25

What's a writing slump? What does that mean?

What's a writing slump? What does that mean?

56:27

I just wasn't I mean, I wasn't feeling it. And I just wasn't proud of the stuff that I was doing. And

I just wasn't I mean, I wasn't feeling it. And I just wasn't proud of the stuff that I was doing. And

56:35

I can get inspired.

I can get inspired.

56:38

And,

And,

56:40

he said, well, what is it that you want? And I said, well, you know, hey, I used to write these these pieces, these long form pieces that I was really proud of. You know what I want? I wanna be

he said, well, what is it that you want? And I said, well, you know, hey, I used to write these these pieces, these long form pieces that I was really proud of. You know what I want? I wanna be

56:52

creative force. I wanna be a creative force. That's what I'm going for. And

creative force. I wanna be a creative force. That's what I'm going for. And

56:56

I sit down to write. I'm like, I wanna be a creative force. That's what I'm all about. And he's like, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Stop stop the train.

I sit down to write. I'm like, I wanna be a creative force. That's what I'm all about. And he's like, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Stop stop the train.

57:05

You said you used to be a good writer,

You said you used to be a good writer,

57:07

and you would

and you would

57:09

get in a great flow.

get in a great flow.

57:11

What did you do back then that you don't do now? I was like,

What did you do back then that you don't do now? I was like,

57:19

ash is pretty simple.

ash is pretty simple.

57:20

I

I

57:22

find an idea that was interesting. I

find an idea that was interesting. I

57:26

would

would

57:27

try to figure out that idea for myself, and then I'd figure out for myself, and I'd say, well, then I gotta share this with other people. And I just do that over and over and over again, And I never stopped. That's all I did. And that's all I focused on. He's like, hold on.

try to figure out that idea for myself, and then I'd figure out for myself, and I'd say, well, then I gotta share this with other people. And I just do that over and over and over again, And I never stopped. That's all I did. And that's all I focused on. He's like, hold on.

57:40

What you're saying is now you're focused on being a creative force. That's your story. That's not working for you. Let's get back to finding an interesting idea, not judging the interestingness,

What you're saying is now you're focused on being a creative force. That's your story. That's not working for you. Let's get back to finding an interesting idea, not judging the interestingness,

57:52

figuring it out for yourself and then sharing it with others.

figuring it out for yourself and then sharing it with others.

57:55

Ever since that, no more slum. Right.

Ever since that, no more slum. Right.

57:58

All that was was a change in my story. Yes. Amazing.

All that was was a change in my story. Yes. Amazing.

58:01

That's amazing. And I think, you know, the other part of what you said there, which is

That's amazing. And I think, you know, the other part of what you said there, which is

58:05

letting curiosity be the the guide, the driver.

letting curiosity be the the guide, the driver.

58:10

Sounds very simple, but

Sounds very simple, but

58:12

all great ideas are actually quite simple with the beauty of them. You know, there's

all great ideas are actually quite simple with the beauty of them. You know, there's

58:17

I think there's a profound,

I think there's a profound,

58:19

benefit

benefit

58:20

of

of

58:21

revisiting simple ideas and then saying am I doing those?

revisiting simple ideas and then saying am I doing those?

58:25

I don't look for new ideas as much as I look for ideas I've already heard that I haven't fully actualized yet. And, you know, that's one,

I don't look for new ideas as much as I look for ideas I've already heard that I haven't fully actualized yet. And, you know, that's one,

58:33

you've read, like, Paul Graham or this essay,

you've read, like, Paul Graham or this essay,

58:37

great work. I assume that you've read that one. Yeah. I recently I read it two nights ago. So good. For the first time. He wrote it, like, a year ago, and it was, like, thirteen thousand words. So I was, like, I'm not doing it. I think that's too long.

great work. I assume that you've read that one. Yeah. I recently I read it two nights ago. So good. For the first time. He wrote it, like, a year ago, and it was, like, thirteen thousand words. So I was, like, I'm not doing it. I think that's too long.

58:49

Well, when the student is ready, the teacher appears. I'm ready to I'm thinking about what what I wanna work on right now. How do I wanna do this? And I went back to that. And in that, he he has this great line. And he goes, if I had to boil down all great work into one one word, it would be curiosity. And he says another thing, which is curiosity drives a level of excitement. It goes, and excitement.

Well, when the student is ready, the teacher appears. I'm ready to I'm thinking about what what I wanna work on right now. How do I wanna do this? And I went back to that. And in that, he he has this great line. And he goes, if I had to boil down all great work into one one word, it would be curiosity. And he says another thing, which is curiosity drives a level of excitement. It goes, and excitement.

59:08

Excitement is really a great indicator. He goes, excitement is the engine and the rudder of the boat.

Excitement is really a great indicator. He goes, excitement is the engine and the rudder of the boat.

59:14

It's the engine and that excitement is motivating. It's a it's a driver to get you to go do things, but it's also the rudder. It also can point you in the right direction. If you don't know which path to choose, Just choose the one that's most exciting. Just go keep following that, and that will lead you to the right place. It's, excitement is the engine and the rudder.

It's the engine and that excitement is motivating. It's a it's a driver to get you to go do things, but it's also the rudder. It also can point you in the right direction. If you don't know which path to choose, Just choose the one that's most exciting. Just go keep following that, and that will lead you to the right place. It's, excitement is the engine and the rudder.

59:31

I think is a really powerful idea. And every time I drifted away from that, like, you did, like,

I think is a really powerful idea. And every time I drifted away from that, like, you did, like,

59:36

I start with that good things happen, and then I'm like, oh, now

I start with that good things happen, and then I'm like, oh, now

59:40

ambition is the driver or,

ambition is the driver or,

59:42

doing something that sounds cool or important or money is the driver. And then, like, all the bad things happen. And I'm like, shit.

doing something that sounds cool or important or money is the driver. And then, like, all the bad things happen. And I'm like, shit.

59:49

Why aren't these working? And it's like, well, because you stopped doing the working formula, which was leading to all these great things, because you thought you needed to, like,

Why aren't these working? And it's like, well, because you stopped doing the working formula, which was leading to all these great things, because you thought you needed to, like,

59:57

You know, you thought you needed to do something different. And I show So many people are like, oh, I hate writing. And most of the time, it's that they associate writing with doing things that they don't wanna do.

You know, you thought you needed to do something different. And I show So many people are like, oh, I hate writing. And most of the time, it's that they associate writing with doing things that they don't wanna do.

01:00:07

And then when they think about, well, it's time to write, they

And then when they think about, well, it's time to write, they

01:00:12

subconsciously

subconsciously

01:00:13

Don't allow them to write about the thing that they're the most

Don't allow them to write about the thing that they're the most

01:00:17

curious about or excited to write about. Because in school, That's not what you get to do. Yeah. The one's excited about the average school paper. Maybe one or two things, but people just aren't trained to think like that. One of the things that

curious about or excited to write about. Because in school, That's not what you get to do. Yeah. The one's excited about the average school paper. Maybe one or two things, but people just aren't trained to think like that. One of the things that

01:00:30

I need to reconcile with you and try to sort of figure out because we got two sean ideas, and we need to figure out how they sort of come together.

I need to reconcile with you and try to sort of figure out because we got two sean ideas, and we need to figure out how they sort of come together.

01:00:37

Is

Is

01:00:39

this line that you have. If you're in your head, you're debt.

this line that you have. If you're in your head, you're debt.

01:00:42

Love that line. So good. At the same time, you are always deconstructing things. You have

Love that line. So good. At the same time, you are always deconstructing things. You have

01:00:49

you find something that you like, and you're like, hold on. What's going on here? Let me try to break it down. Okay. I'm actually gonna go check out this book, go this expert, trying to figure out what's going on. So how is it that you are deconstructing,

you find something that you like, and you're like, hold on. What's going on here? Let me try to break it down. Okay. I'm actually gonna go check out this book, go this expert, trying to figure out what's going on. So how is it that you are deconstructing,

01:01:01

thinking, being fairly analytical, but at the same time, not getting in your head, those things feel like polar opposites to me.

thinking, being fairly analytical, but at the same time, not getting in your head, those things feel like polar opposites to me.

01:01:08

Yeah. Two things. One, I read something yesterday,

Yeah. Two things. One, I read something yesterday,

01:01:11

this, like, mini book online that was called

this, like, mini book online that was called

01:01:15

I think it's called, like, a technique for,

I think it's called, like, a technique for,

01:01:18

a technique for coming up with new ideas. This is some old book.

a technique for coming up with new ideas. This is some old book.

01:01:23

And in it, it said this thing, it goes,

And in it, it said this thing, it goes,

01:01:26

the, the most valuable

the, the most valuable

01:01:29

traits you can have sound like opposite when, you know, if you pair them together. So you guys, you know,

traits you can have sound like opposite when, you know, if you pair them together. So you guys, you know,

01:01:34

imagine an entrepreneur who is both visionary and detail oriented.

imagine an entrepreneur who is both visionary and detail oriented.

01:01:39

That's a that's a Steve Jobs, for example. Like, Steve Jobs is famous for being a visionary. He he doesn't ask the consumer what they want. They just want faster horses. He, you know, they wanna car, actually. Right? That's how he permits, you know, the iPhone and it figures out what to do. But he's insanely detail oriented where he's like, what does the inside of the box look like? And they're like, Steve. Nobody's gonna look at this. He's like, I'm gonna look at this. I will know what's inside the box. It needs to be beautiful at that level of detail pixel level detail.

That's a that's a Steve Jobs, for example. Like, Steve Jobs is famous for being a visionary. He he doesn't ask the consumer what they want. They just want faster horses. He, you know, they wanna car, actually. Right? That's how he permits, you know, the iPhone and it figures out what to do. But he's insanely detail oriented where he's like, what does the inside of the box look like? And they're like, Steve. Nobody's gonna look at this. He's like, I'm gonna look at this. I will know what's inside the box. It needs to be beautiful at that level of detail pixel level detail.

01:02:05

Same thing for all things. Right?

Same thing for all things. Right?

01:02:07

I consider myself a creative person. I'm also highly analytical with data.

I consider myself a creative person. I'm also highly analytical with data.

01:02:12

Sounds like opposites.

Sounds like opposites.

01:02:15

And so there are many things where the exact opposite, if paired together,

And so there are many things where the exact opposite, if paired together,

01:02:20

creates a, like, one plus one equals three type of reaction.

creates a, like, one plus one equals three type of reaction.

01:02:24

And, they're often presented as false choices. You're either this type of person or you're this type of person.

And, they're often presented as false choices. You're either this type of person or you're this type of person.

01:02:29

Screw that.

Screw that.

01:02:30

Be the type person you want, which sometimes means having both gears. And knowing when to go into which gear. When do I need to be,

Be the type person you want, which sometimes means having both gears. And knowing when to go into which gear. When do I need to be,

01:02:36

creative? When do I need to be analytical? When do I need to be hard charging entrepreneur? Don't need to be silly playful dad, you know, paint my nails, whatever. Right? Like, I have to have these gears to have the life I want. Similarly,

creative? When do I need to be analytical? When do I need to be hard charging entrepreneur? Don't need to be silly playful dad, you know, paint my nails, whatever. Right? Like, I have to have these gears to have the life I want. Similarly,

01:02:48

You wanna be in your head at the times it makes sense to be in your head. The brain is a valuable tool. It just cannot be the master. So the, you know, I need to be in my head when it's about

You wanna be in your head at the times it makes sense to be in your head. The brain is a valuable tool. It just cannot be the master. So the, you know, I need to be in my head when it's about

01:02:58

Maybe it's,

Maybe it's,

01:03:00

analysis.

analysis.

01:03:00

Maybe it's,

Maybe it's,

01:03:02

oh, I'm feeling fear. I need to actually use logic and I see myself. Is this fear even true? And what's the probability of that? And if that happened, how would I handle it? I guess I would just do this. I guess it's not so scary after all. So usually,

oh, I'm feeling fear. I need to actually use logic and I see myself. Is this fear even true? And what's the probability of that? And if that happened, how would I handle it? I guess I would just do this. I guess it's not so scary after all. So usually,

01:03:15

if the problem is emotion,

if the problem is emotion,

01:03:17

you could solve it with emotion.

you could solve it with emotion.

01:03:18

If the problem is logic, you can solve with logic. And so

If the problem is logic, you can solve with logic. And so

01:03:22

I try to use them at the right times. The if you're in your head, you're dead is basically a as more of a life philosophy fee than it is a work philosophy, which is people who kinda go around life,

I try to use them at the right times. The if you're in your head, you're dead is basically a as more of a life philosophy fee than it is a work philosophy, which is people who kinda go around life,

01:03:32

not feeling a whole lot and not being present in the moment, they're in their head about stuff, they're missing life.

not feeling a whole lot and not being present in the moment, they're in their head about stuff, they're missing life.

01:03:39

And that's that's a problem, you know, more so than than a writing tactic. Have you ever seen that advice from Ray Ratberry, where he says, don't think. Have you ever seen this? Go ahead. So I heard that,

And that's that's a problem, you know, more so than than a writing tactic. Have you ever seen that advice from Ray Ratberry, where he says, don't think. Have you ever seen this? Go ahead. So I heard that,

01:03:50

what you said here, and it immediately reminded me. He says I have a sign and my typewriter says don't sync.

what you said here, and it immediately reminded me. He says I have a sign and my typewriter says don't sync.

01:03:57

And I'm like, okay. That's interesting. It's like, I'm trying to surprise myself at the keyboard. The only way to surprise myself is once I'm in my head, I can't do that. And I think that a lot of running a first draft is like this. You're

And I'm like, okay. That's interesting. It's like, I'm trying to surprise myself at the keyboard. The only way to surprise myself is once I'm in my head, I can't do that. And I think that a lot of running a first draft is like this. You're

01:04:09

you're trying to get outside of that part of your brain that judges, that condemns, that says, no. No. No. It's not good enough. And just put stuff onto the page, and you know that you're doing it well. When what you're doing is like, whoa, where did that come from? Where did that come from? Where did that come from? And then the question is, how do you engineer yourself to do that? Like, for me, If I'm sitting and typing, can't do it. Like, my ideas, that for me is where I do editing. The thing that was game changing for me was voice transcription getting really good because now I stand and talk. Talk and walk outside. Walk and talk. Just blah blah blah blah blah. Half of Austin definitely thinks I'm some sort of like crazy psychopath kinda guy. But you know what? It's made my writing better. And a bunch of people I work with, they're like, how do you just bang out first draft so fast? I'm like, because I don't sit and type. Like, everybody else does. I just go for a walk.

you're trying to get outside of that part of your brain that judges, that condemns, that says, no. No. No. It's not good enough. And just put stuff onto the page, and you know that you're doing it well. When what you're doing is like, whoa, where did that come from? Where did that come from? Where did that come from? And then the question is, how do you engineer yourself to do that? Like, for me, If I'm sitting and typing, can't do it. Like, my ideas, that for me is where I do editing. The thing that was game changing for me was voice transcription getting really good because now I stand and talk. Talk and walk outside. Walk and talk. Just blah blah blah blah blah. Half of Austin definitely thinks I'm some sort of like crazy psychopath kinda guy. But you know what? It's made my writing better. And a bunch of people I work with, they're like, how do you just bang out first draft so fast? I'm like, because I don't sit and type. Like, everybody else does. I just go for a walk.

01:04:56

Yeah. I think that's a that's a great point. I think you need to to figure out a way to engineer that for yourself so you can consistently have it.

Yeah. I think that's a that's a great point. I think you need to to figure out a way to engineer that for yourself so you can consistently have it.

01:05:03

I think everybody's got a different version of of how to do it. What you said reminded me of something though, you go,

I think everybody's got a different version of of how to do it. What you said reminded me of something though, you go,

01:05:09

become a red battery, but don't think,

become a red battery, but don't think,

01:05:12

I think this is a, a very useful troubleshooting

I think this is a, a very useful troubleshooting

01:05:15

tool. So

tool. So

01:05:16

when you're stuck, many ways to get unstuck.

when you're stuck, many ways to get unstuck.

01:05:20

And one way to get unstuck, like I said, radical change in something physical you do. I mean, that's a good tactic. Music is a good way to get unstuck too.

And one way to get unstuck, like I said, radical change in something physical you do. I mean, that's a good tactic. Music is a good way to get unstuck too.

01:05:27

But in general, a philosophy for how to get unstuck is

But in general, a philosophy for how to get unstuck is

01:05:31

You're

You're

01:05:32

if you're stuck in the specifics, go general.

if you're stuck in the specifics, go general.

01:05:35

Meaning,

Meaning,

01:05:36

if you're stuck in the logistics of the how something is gonna happen, it's not quite adding up. What you gotta do is not just keep trying to do this. You can just zoom right out. Go super general. Alright. Super general. What am I trying to do here? I'm trying to do this. Super general.

if you're stuck in the logistics of the how something is gonna happen, it's not quite adding up. What you gotta do is not just keep trying to do this. You can just zoom right out. Go super general. Alright. Super general. What am I trying to do here? I'm trying to do this. Super general.

01:05:50

If I had all the superpowers in the world, well, how would I do this? Right? Super general is just like,

If I had all the superpowers in the world, well, how would I do this? Right? Super general is just like,

01:05:56

you know, who's somebody who's done this before? Or Super General. Okay. I don't know exactly what type of thing I wanna write. What inspires me. Right?

you know, who's somebody who's done this before? Or Super General. Okay. I don't know exactly what type of thing I wanna write. What inspires me. Right?

01:06:03

The way to get out of these sometimes is to go general to go, and so even if, like, don't think is hard because we're hard to turn off the brain, but it's not so hard to redirect the brain. And so redirecting it, I think, is is a useful tool. You can redirect it towards. I'm gonna go rock climb. I'll go exercise. That'll take my brain off of it. It can also be I'm stuck in the muck here and I need to just zoom out, and that's it. Or if I'm stuck in the general, for example, sometimes I'm stuck in the general of, like, what do I wanna be in life? And, like, you know, what, what do I wanna do? And who am I and all this stuff?

The way to get out of these sometimes is to go general to go, and so even if, like, don't think is hard because we're hard to turn off the brain, but it's not so hard to redirect the brain. And so redirecting it, I think, is is a useful tool. You can redirect it towards. I'm gonna go rock climb. I'll go exercise. That'll take my brain off of it. It can also be I'm stuck in the muck here and I need to just zoom out, and that's it. Or if I'm stuck in the general, for example, sometimes I'm stuck in the general of, like, what do I wanna be in life? And, like, you know, what, what do I wanna do? And who am I and all this stuff?

01:06:33

Specific. What's the, like, what's the best idea you heard in the last two days? Well, like, if you were gonna write about that, what would it be? Or, like, what's the most interesting phone call I've I've had?

Specific. What's the, like, what's the best idea you heard in the last two days? Well, like, if you were gonna write about that, what would it be? Or, like, what's the most interesting phone call I've I've had?

01:06:42

You know, then you go specific because you're stuck in the general. So it's a very useful thing to do is just like to get unstuck. No. If you're stuck in the specifics, go general. If you're stuck in the general, go specific. And you'll you'll redirect the brain.

You know, then you go specific because you're stuck in the general. So it's a very useful thing to do is just like to get unstuck. No. If you're stuck in the specifics, go general. If you're stuck in the general, go specific. And you'll you'll redirect the brain.

01:06:53

I wanna switch over to talk about voice. You're really good at

I wanna switch over to talk about voice. You're really good at

01:06:59

putting your voice onto the page, and you do something very

putting your voice onto the page, and you do something very

01:07:04

specific

specific

01:07:05

that I'm not

that I'm not

01:07:06

Sure. How consciously you do this, but you're so good at getting

Sure. How consciously you do this, but you're so good at getting

01:07:10

inside

inside

01:07:11

the head of a reader to understand, alright, are they feeling about this at the moment? And basically, you said it earlier, breaking the fourth wall, and then by doing that building trust and connection, and then it creates this friendly casualness as if we're having a conversation

the head of a reader to understand, alright, are they feeling about this at the moment? And basically, you said it earlier, breaking the fourth wall, and then by doing that building trust and connection, and then it creates this friendly casualness as if we're having a conversation

01:07:25

that

that

01:07:26

my goodness. That is levels away from most from what most writers are able to do.

my goodness. That is levels away from most from what most writers are able to do.

01:07:31

Have you ever read the boron letters?

Have you ever read the boron letters?

01:07:34

Years ago. Okay. So this is, Must Street. Yeah. Copywriting. Copy writing. Surprised you don't have them, like, printed out of your pocket. They're that good. So the boron letters are this amazing thing by this,

Years ago. Okay. So this is, Must Street. Yeah. Copywriting. Copy writing. Surprised you don't have them, like, printed out of your pocket. They're that good. So the boron letters are this amazing thing by this,

01:07:46

like, at a renowned copywriter,

like, at a renowned copywriter,

01:07:48

Carrie Halpert, I think, writing to his son,

Carrie Halpert, I think, writing to his son,

01:07:52

and he's in jail. So the the rider is now in jail. He's writing to his son.

and he's in jail. So the the rider is now in jail. He's writing to his son.

01:07:57

Bond, I think. This is an eight. And so it's like a series of twenty three letters. And,

Bond, I think. This is an eight. And so it's like a series of twenty three letters. And,

01:08:03

I put they're hard to find too. It's really annoying. They're hard to there's, like, blogs. I put it I hosted them on my blog now,

I put they're hard to find too. It's really annoying. They're hard to there's, like, blogs. I put it I hosted them on my blog now,

01:08:09

because I was like, this is it's crazy that it's so valuable and so hard to find. So anyways,

because I was like, this is it's crazy that it's so valuable and so hard to find. So anyways,

01:08:15

he posted the he wrote these letters, and he just wrote it again to one person. He's like, I'm writing it to my son. But, obviously,

he posted the he wrote these letters, and he just wrote it again to one person. He's like, I'm writing it to my son. But, obviously,

01:08:22

these were kind of like, general principles of life and copywriting

these were kind of like, general principles of life and copywriting

01:08:26

and marketing and he's teaching. He's trying to teach him everything he knows. But the but because of the way he wrote it with such a casual, like, like, warm relationship. Like, he's not even just writing it one person. He's writing to his son. And because he's writing to his son, he's like,

and marketing and he's teaching. He's trying to teach him everything he knows. But the but because of the way he wrote it with such a casual, like, like, warm relationship. Like, he's not even just writing it one person. He's writing to his son. And because he's writing to his son, he's like,

01:08:39

and this do your bond is where things get interesting. Or he's like, you're probably wondering, dad, why do you say this? We're gonna get to that. But first, a little detour. And he just started writing so differently that I was like, oh, I like this style. This is just like has a swag to it that, that is just like appealing to me.

and this do your bond is where things get interesting. Or he's like, you're probably wondering, dad, why do you say this? We're gonna get to that. But first, a little detour. And he just started writing so differently that I was like, oh, I like this style. This is just like has a swag to it that, that is just like appealing to me.

01:08:57

So I started stealing that. Basically, I was like, oh, I'm gonna write like that. I'm gonna write, like, I'm writing to one person, and that one person is, like, my little young grasshopper. It's like, hey. This is my kid or it's my my little cousin or it's me when I was younger. It's like,

So I started stealing that. Basically, I was like, oh, I'm gonna write like that. I'm gonna write, like, I'm writing to one person, and that one person is, like, my little young grasshopper. It's like, hey. This is my kid or it's my my little cousin or it's me when I was younger. It's like,

01:09:10

I know what you're thinking. Blah, blah, blah. But, mama Mia, you're wrong. Right? And I'll just, like, try to, like, try to just make it fun and interesting as if it's written to one, one one person that has, like, a warm relationship. Somebody that's kind of, like, wanna be the sensei and the the that's how I write in in those where it's like a master teacher relationship, and other times it's the opposite. It's,

I know what you're thinking. Blah, blah, blah. But, mama Mia, you're wrong. Right? And I'll just, like, try to, like, try to just make it fun and interesting as if it's written to one, one one person that has, like, a warm relationship. Somebody that's kind of, like, wanna be the sensei and the the that's how I write in in those where it's like a master teacher relationship, and other times it's the opposite. It's,

01:09:30

I'm the beginner And I know that other people are more more knowledgeable about this, and I'll be like, and I just will be open about that. I'll be like, so being the idiot that I am,

I'm the beginner And I know that other people are more more knowledgeable about this, and I'll be like, and I just will be open about that. I'll be like, so being the idiot that I am,

01:09:40

I'm gonna I I decided I was gonna do these three things. I knew there's probably a better way to do this. You probably know four four four better ways yourself. You're probably staring at us right now. Wondering how could this might be so dumb?

I'm gonna I I decided I was gonna do these three things. I knew there's probably a better way to do this. You probably know four four four better ways yourself. You're probably staring at us right now. Wondering how could this might be so dumb?

01:09:51

Well, the answer is blah, blah, blah. Right? And I'll I'll try to say it like that because I'm just trying to make it where I'm trying to imagine what is the reader thinking at this. What would I think if I was them? And then I try to address that in the moment because it's very frustrating to me when

Well, the answer is blah, blah, blah. Right? And I'll I'll try to say it like that because I'm just trying to make it where I'm trying to imagine what is the reader thinking at this. What would I think if I was them? And then I try to address that in the moment because it's very frustrating to me when

01:10:06

Like, imagine if you ask somebody this question, you're like, how did you do it? And they're like,

Like, imagine if you ask somebody this question, you're like, how did you do it? And they're like,

01:10:10

I just did this. And you're listed on podcasts. And then that podcast host doesn't ask them, like, Wait. Wait. What do you mean? It just worked? Like, how or what do you mean? He gave you a million dollars. Why did he give you a million dollars? Right? Like, it's the most frustrating experience in the world when that doesn't get addressed.

I just did this. And you're listed on podcasts. And then that podcast host doesn't ask them, like, Wait. Wait. What do you mean? It just worked? Like, how or what do you mean? He gave you a million dollars. Why did he give you a million dollars? Right? Like, it's the most frustrating experience in the world when that doesn't get addressed.

01:10:25

So in writing, I try to do that too. Like, I try to just call out the thing I would be wondering about or I would be skeptical of or I would be excited about in that moment, to try to include it in the the dialogue.

So in writing, I try to do that too. Like, I try to just call out the thing I would be wondering about or I would be skeptical of or I would be excited about in that moment, to try to include it in the the dialogue.

01:10:36

One of the things that we talk about all the time in write a passage, one of my core principles is imitate then invade. And it's exactly what you did there. So I asked you a question, and you said, okay. Have you ever heard of this thing? Well, Gary Albert does this very well. And then what you did was you deconstructed

One of the things that we talk about all the time in write a passage, one of my core principles is imitate then invade. And it's exactly what you did there. So I asked you a question, and you said, okay. Have you ever heard of this thing? Well, Gary Albert does this very well. And then what you did was you deconstructed

01:10:53

exactly how he does it. And then you said, you found a general principle of his work. So you said, He's not just writing for one person. He's writing to his son. And then the implications of that are this, this, this, and this. And the

exactly how he does it. And then you said, you found a general principle of his work. So you said, He's not just writing for one person. He's writing to his son. And then the implications of that are this, this, this, and this. And the

01:11:08

road map that you took to give me that answer, I think, is very revealing of how you think about writing, where you start somewhere, you deconstruct and then you say, how does that show up in my own world? And then you try to build up a generalizable principle that then you can use for your toolkit whenever you're typing yourself. Yes. That's exactly right. I think that is

road map that you took to give me that answer, I think, is very revealing of how you think about writing, where you start somewhere, you deconstruct and then you say, how does that show up in my own world? And then you try to build up a generalizable principle that then you can use for your toolkit whenever you're typing yourself. Yes. That's exactly right. I think that is

01:11:28

a great thing for anybody to try to do. If you wanna get better at something, that's a that's the way.

a great thing for anybody to try to do. If you wanna get better at something, that's a that's the way.

01:11:32

Yeah. By the way, I randomly just thought of the best example of framing from way earlier

Yeah. By the way, I randomly just thought of the best example of framing from way earlier

01:11:38

while you were talking. Which is kinda how the brain works. The brain relaxes it and something gums to it.

while you were talking. Which is kinda how the brain works. The brain relaxes it and something gums to it.

01:11:43

Have you seen the Dave Chapelle thing called Unforgiven? Have you seen this on YouTube? Nope. Alright. So do you remember a while back? Dave Chapel was in a feud with,

Have you seen the Dave Chapelle thing called Unforgiven? Have you seen this on YouTube? Nope. Alright. So do you remember a while back? Dave Chapel was in a feud with,

01:11:54

I think it was Netflix.

I think it was Netflix.

01:11:56

And he was like,

And he was like,

01:11:58

the Chapel show was put on Netflix, and he wasn't getting any royalties. So, like, it's his name, it's his face. It's all his life's work. And not only was he not getting paid for it, he had had a big falling out with the creators of the Shell show where, like, he ended up quitting,

the Chapel show was put on Netflix, and he wasn't getting any royalties. So, like, it's his name, it's his face. It's all his life's work. And not only was he not getting paid for it, he had had a big falling out with the creators of the Shell show where, like, he ended up quitting,

01:12:11

Right? When they they the story what the time was, they offered him fifty million dollars. He said, no. They went to Africa and became a crack head instead. That was, like, the rumors. Like, It spells a crack head now, and he's in Africa.

Right? When they they the story what the time was, they offered him fifty million dollars. He said, no. They went to Africa and became a crack head instead. That was, like, the rumors. Like, It spells a crack head now, and he's in Africa.

01:12:22

And it was, like and he later he was, like, no. I just said, no. Why do I have to be a crack head in Africa? I went home. Like, what are you talking about?

And it was, like and he later he was, like, no. I just said, no. Why do I have to be a crack head in Africa? I went home. Like, what are you talking about?

01:12:29

So anyways,

So anyways,

01:12:30

here's the objective. His objective was he wanted people to boycott the show.

here's the objective. His objective was he wanted people to boycott the show.

01:12:36

But how do you get people to boycott the show? You gotta If you wanna drive people to take action, you gotta be smart with how you're gonna,

But how do you get people to boycott the show? You gotta If you wanna drive people to take action, you gotta be smart with how you're gonna,

01:12:42

like, how you're gonna persuade them through the written word or in his case, he wrote it first and then he performed it on stage.

like, how you're gonna persuade them through the written word or in his case, he wrote it first and then he performed it on stage.

01:12:48

And what he did was instead of talking about Netflix or talking about his show or Franco boycott my show, please,

And what he did was instead of talking about Netflix or talking about his show or Franco boycott my show, please,

01:12:54

he started

he started

01:12:56

that he reframed the problem

that he reframed the problem

01:12:58

in a totally different way that I thought was brilliant. He just changed the frame completely. So he tells the story. He goes,

in a totally different way that I thought was brilliant. He just changed the frame completely. So he tells the story. He goes,

01:13:05

I remember I was fourteen years old. First time I did I ever did comedy. I was fourteen years old. I go to this comedy club, and I tell this joke. And he's like, I'm gonna I say, I'm gonna admit I was good right away. Comedy came naturally to me. I'm not one of those people who's like, it took me a decade. He's like, honestly, I was good, and I was fourteen, fifteen, fifteen years old, I think. He's like, I was underage, but I was good. And he's like, I came backstage and there's a guy who's been doing this for twenty years, and they were like, hey, kid, you did pretty good, man. That that's that was good. I'm was like, one guy came in and he was like, hey, man. I like that joke.

I remember I was fourteen years old. First time I did I ever did comedy. I was fourteen years old. I go to this comedy club, and I tell this joke. And he's like, I'm gonna I say, I'm gonna admit I was good right away. Comedy came naturally to me. I'm not one of those people who's like, it took me a decade. He's like, honestly, I was good, and I was fourteen, fifteen, fifteen years old, I think. He's like, I was underage, but I was good. And he's like, I came backstage and there's a guy who's been doing this for twenty years, and they were like, hey, kid, you did pretty good, man. That that's that was good. I'm was like, one guy came in and he was like, hey, man. I like that joke.

01:13:35

I had this big audition coming up for this TV show or something. Like, for this other thing,

I had this big audition coming up for this TV show or something. Like, for this other thing,

01:13:40

Do you mind if I use that joke?

Do you mind if I use that joke?

01:13:42

He's like, even as a kid, I'm fifteen, this guy's, you know, bigger, older. I looked up to this guy. He's like, I

He's like, even as a kid, I'm fifteen, this guy's, you know, bigger, older. I looked up to this guy. He's like, I

01:13:49

didn't wanna do it. So I was like, my jokes, all I got. I got no money. All I have is a comedian. This is my jokes. He's like, but, you know, this guy was kinda asking, I felt uncomfortable.

didn't wanna do it. So I was like, my jokes, all I got. I got no money. All I have is a comedian. This is my jokes. He's like, but, you know, this guy was kinda asking, I felt uncomfortable.

01:13:58

He said he just needed it for this audition. So I was like, alright, man. Like, sure. You could use the joke for that audition.

He said he just needed it for this audition. So I was like, alright, man. Like, sure. You could use the joke for that audition.

01:14:04

The guy said, alright. Cool. He's like, several months later. I go to the club. I'm about to perform. That guy's before me. He tells my joke. And the joke kills me. He's like, I was pissed.

The guy said, alright. Cool. He's like, several months later. I go to the club. I'm about to perform. That guy's before me. He tells my joke. And the joke kills me. He's like, I was pissed.

01:14:15

And he's like, I didn't know what to do. He's like, afterwards. I went up to the guy again. I'm a fifteen year old kid. I'm, like, he basically is framing it as, this powerless kid, And this guy's taking advantage of me. And he goes,

And he's like, I didn't know what to do. He's like, afterwards. I went up to the guy again. I'm a fifteen year old kid. I'm, like, he basically is framing it as, this powerless kid, And this guy's taking advantage of me. And he goes,

01:14:25

I told him, I was like, hey, man. You said you were just gonna use it for that thing. Like, I I don't want that. I want my joke back.

I told him, I was like, hey, man. You said you were just gonna use it for that thing. Like, I I don't want that. I want my joke back.

01:14:30

And,

And,

01:14:31

I think maybe he had given him a hundred bucks or something like that. And,

I think maybe he had given him a hundred bucks or something like that. And,

01:14:35

and the guy's, like, the guy kind of roughed him up. He grabbed him, and he was, like, I was just asking to be nice. You know, I could just take it. Hey, he's like, I am scared. I didn't know what to do.

and the guy's, like, the guy kind of roughed him up. He grabbed him, and he was, like, I was just asking to be nice. You know, I could just take it. Hey, he's like, I am scared. I didn't know what to do.

01:14:47

Let that guy take my joke. Okay. So that's the story. He's not gonna tell you another story. He tells a story about later on, he's in New York.

Let that guy take my joke. Okay. So that's the story. He's not gonna tell you another story. He tells a story about later on, he's in New York.

01:14:54

And he's,

And he's,

01:14:55

he's, like, I got a date with this Jamaican girl. He's, like, fine girl. Yeah. Bang in, Adi. I couldn't wait to go on this date. I didn't have any money. I must I'm still a struggling comedian, but now I'm older. I'm twenty two, twenty four, something like that. He's like, And I walk around New York and I see these guys doing, like, that three card money where they, like, you know, that game.

he's, like, I got a date with this Jamaican girl. He's, like, fine girl. Yeah. Bang in, Adi. I couldn't wait to go on this date. I didn't have any money. I must I'm still a struggling comedian, but now I'm older. I'm twenty two, twenty four, something like that. He's like, And I walk around New York and I see these guys doing, like, that three card money where they, like, you know, that game.

01:15:12

And I'm watching it, and a guy puts down a hundred bucks moves the thing around. I know it's over here. He guesses the wrong one. He loses. He shows it's over that. Next thing I go, same thing, puts down twenty bucks.

And I'm watching it, and a guy puts down a hundred bucks moves the thing around. I know it's over here. He guesses the wrong one. He loses. He shows it's over that. Next thing I go, same thing, puts down twenty bucks.

01:15:23

Know it's over there. He picks over here. He loses. I'm like, god. I could do this. So I step up. I put all a hundred bucks down. Say, I'm gonna double this, that I'll take the take my girl out tonight.

Know it's over there. He picks over here. He loses. I'm like, god. I could do this. So I step up. I put all a hundred bucks down. Say, I'm gonna double this, that I'll take the take my girl out tonight.

01:15:34

I know the ball is over here. I say that one.

I know the ball is over here. I say that one.

01:15:37

Ball is over there. He's like, what the hell just happened? He's like I was pissed. I lost a hundred bucks. I had this date tonight. He's like, so I stuck around, and I watched.

Ball is over there. He's like, what the hell just happened? He's like I was pissed. I lost a hundred bucks. I had this date tonight. He's like, so I stuck around, and I watched.

01:15:45

And I realized those tourists

And I realized those tourists

01:15:47

They didn't leave. They were still here, and they did it again. He's like, oh, they've puzzled me. Like, those guys are in on it together. They pretended not to know where it was.

They didn't leave. They were still here, and they did it again. He's like, oh, they've puzzled me. Like, those guys are in on it together. They pretended not to know where it was.

01:15:56

And I was the mark who came up and said, oh, I figured this out. And they got me and then somebody

And I was the mark who came up and said, oh, I figured this out. And they got me and then somebody

01:16:00

else, came up, and they were about to make the same mistake. And I told them, don't do it. They're all in on it.

else, came up, and they were about to make the same mistake. And I told them, don't do it. They're all in on it.

01:16:06

And the guy goes, oh, okay. And he leaves. He's like, the guy wraps him up again, and he goes, hey, man, he goes, don't care what you think. He's like, never

And the guy goes, oh, okay. And he leaves. He's like, the guy wraps him up again, and he goes, hey, man, he goes, don't care what you think. He's like, never

01:16:17

get between a man and his next meal. He's like, you just took money out of my pocket.

get between a man and his next meal. He's like, you just took money out of my pocket.

01:16:21

This is my job. This is my livelihood, and taking away a man's livelihood is the equivalent of killing him. Well, he tells him that. Okay. Cool. Then he he finally gets to the Netflix story. And he basically weaves together those parts from before. He's like,

This is my job. This is my livelihood, and taking away a man's livelihood is the equivalent of killing him. Well, he tells him that. Okay. Cool. Then he he finally gets to the Netflix story. And he basically weaves together those parts from before. He's like,

01:16:34

they didn't ask me if they could put it on Netflix.

they didn't ask me if they could put it on Netflix.

01:16:37

They didn't ask me to, you know, basically, like, They didn't ask right. They just took my name, took my face, took all my content, they just took it. He's like, and then the second thing was, he's the the people would say, well, you sign the contract, Dave. He's like, I was a twenty one year old kid. I hired lawyers to read these contracts.

They didn't ask me to, you know, basically, like, They didn't ask right. They just took my name, took my face, took all my content, they just took it. He's like, and then the second thing was, he's the the people would say, well, you sign the contract, Dave. He's like, I was a twenty one year old kid. I hired lawyers to read these contracts.

01:16:53

They told me everything I said to, hey, you can use this forever in perpetuity in all parts of the universe. And they're like, it's standard Dave. Don't worry about it. This is standard Hollywood stuff. Don't don't worry about it. So he's, like, so I signed it. Later on, I realized,

They told me everything I said to, hey, you can use this forever in perpetuity in all parts of the universe. And they're like, it's standard Dave. Don't worry about it. This is standard Hollywood stuff. Don't don't worry about it. So he's, like, so I signed it. Later on, I realized,

01:17:06

Those guys all go out to dinner every week, the lawyers on my side, they're, like, they're all in on it. This is just like the three card money. That's how ugly it is. I was the mark. So, yeah, I signed it, but whatever. And he got the whole audience on his side

Those guys all go out to dinner every week, the lawyers on my side, they're, like, they're all in on it. This is just like the three card money. That's how ugly it is. I was the mark. So, yeah, I signed it, but whatever. And he got the whole audience on his side

01:17:19

by, like, making this argument by using these two stories

by, like, making this argument by using these two stories

01:17:22

I think it is the most brilliant, like, example

I think it is the most brilliant, like, example

01:17:25

of of PR or, like, a written story that I have ever seen. The way by the end of that thing, you're like, I will delete Netflix if they don't take the show off, and it's exactly what happened. People saw that, that video on YouTube, it went super viral because it was so well done.

of of PR or, like, a written story that I have ever seen. The way by the end of that thing, you're like, I will delete Netflix if they don't take the show off, and it's exactly what happened. People saw that, that video on YouTube, it went super viral because it was so well done.

01:17:40

People boycotted Netflix. They took it off. And they Netflix said we don't have to do this day, but we voluntarily will do this, like, We were also moved by your story. We're not gonna put put your fellowship up there unless you say we can do it. Even though contraction, we have the rights to do whatever we we're gonna honor the non contract here. I thought that was the power of, like, you know, reframing,

People boycotted Netflix. They took it off. And they Netflix said we don't have to do this day, but we voluntarily will do this, like, We were also moved by your story. We're not gonna put put your fellowship up there unless you say we can do it. Even though contraction, we have the rights to do whatever we we're gonna honor the non contract here. I thought that was the power of, like, you know, reframing,

01:18:00

not like, oh, I'm getting sued. I want money to, like, a more universal,

not like, oh, I'm getting sued. I want money to, like, a more universal,

01:18:06

you know, you're getting picked on by the man. You're getting screwed by people who are all in on it, and I thought that was absolutely brilliant. That is yes. Just go watch this thing. It's amazing. Yeah.

you know, you're getting picked on by the man. You're getting screwed by people who are all in on it, and I thought that was absolutely brilliant. That is yes. Just go watch this thing. It's amazing. Yeah.

01:18:15

I wanna talk about

I wanna talk about

01:18:16

distribution.

distribution.

01:18:18

So one of the things that we're working on at write a passage is what I wanna figure out is I wanna figure out how to take anybody, people who don't write all the time, don't really have an audience. They've just published something really good. Like, say that you are

So one of the things that we're working on at write a passage is what I wanna figure out is I wanna figure out how to take anybody, people who don't write all the time, don't really have an audience. They've just published something really good. Like, say that you are

01:18:31

absolute expert in, like, the distribution of San Plegrino Waters from, like, the little town in Italy, how they

absolute expert in, like, the distribution of San Plegrino Waters from, like, the little town in Italy, how they

01:18:38

where they package it, you know, what's the story of the label, all that sort of stuff. And you are like, this is how the sparkling water boom came, and I'm gonna tell the story of how it begins. In a little town in Italy with San pellegrino

where they package it, you know, what's the story of the label, all that sort of stuff. And you are like, this is how the sparkling water boom came, and I'm gonna tell the story of how it begins. In a little town in Italy with San pellegrino

01:18:50

wine. Okay? You have this expert. He, she, never written online.

wine. Okay? You have this expert. He, she, never written online.

01:18:54

They write something. It's awesome. And I wanna help them distribute it.

They write something. It's awesome. And I wanna help them distribute it.

01:18:59

They come to me, they say, what do I do? How should I talk them through that?

They come to me, they say, what do I do? How should I talk them through that?

01:19:04

I think distribution is

I think distribution is

01:19:06

built over time. I don't think that's something you can do from day one. Right? Like,

built over time. I don't think that's something you can do from day one. Right? Like,

01:19:11

it's kinda back to that hundred videos thing, from earlier.

it's kinda back to that hundred videos thing, from earlier.

01:19:15

If you're going to

If you're going to

01:19:17

write online,

write online,

01:19:19

There is sort of a,

There is sort of a,

01:19:21

beach head moment. You have to create. You have to create a trusted audience over time, and you have to know that that distribution is earned. Why distribution is valuable because it's hard to replicate.

beach head moment. You have to create. You have to create a trusted audience over time, and you have to know that that distribution is earned. Why distribution is valuable because it's hard to replicate.

01:19:30

So, for example,

So, for example,

01:19:31

my buddy, Jason, used to say this thing, he goes.

my buddy, Jason, used to say this thing, he goes.

01:19:34

Oh, I have the one two three rule of interestingness. What does that mean? He goes, tell me one one thing that's interesting.

Oh, I have the one two three rule of interestingness. What does that mean? He goes, tell me one one thing that's interesting.

01:19:40

Right? You tell me one thing that's interesting about San pellegrino. I'll say, that's interesting.

Right? You tell me one thing that's interesting about San pellegrino. I'll say, that's interesting.

01:19:44

Tell me two things that's interesting, but I those were interesting. That's two interesting things. You tell me three interesting things. I'll say you're interesting. So and this is just like a general philosophy I think you should have with writing is, like, you don't

Tell me two things that's interesting, but I those were interesting. That's two interesting things. You tell me three interesting things. I'll say you're interesting. So and this is just like a general philosophy I think you should have with writing is, like, you don't

01:19:56

deserve that, like, trusted follow or relationship

deserve that, like, trusted follow or relationship

01:19:59

I tell you and three is a small number, really, on the internet, it might be, like, twenty things. Like, you might have to tell somebody twenty interesting things before they're like, this guy is interesting.

I tell you and three is a small number, really, on the internet, it might be, like, twenty things. Like, you might have to tell somebody twenty interesting things before they're like, this guy is interesting.

01:20:08

I can't wait to get his next one. And you just have to build that up. Like, you have to build you have to consistently be telling somebody something interesting.

I can't wait to get his next one. And you just have to build that up. Like, you have to build you have to consistently be telling somebody something interesting.

01:20:17

Multiple times

Multiple times

01:20:19

for you to earn that that, you know, channel between them where they're now gonna be receiving your content, or they'll be willing to vouch for you and spread you to another person, not just on the merits of the one thing, but because

for you to earn that that, you know, channel between them where they're now gonna be receiving your content, or they'll be willing to vouch for you and spread you to another person, not just on the merits of the one thing, but because

01:20:30

you are interesting. And you consistently share interesting things, And then when groups of people think you're interesting, it's even more powerful. Right? Because then another person comes in and just says, oh, everybody thinks this guy's actually cool. I'll follow. Right? Like, which is why the more Twitter followers you get, the more you're gonna get. Right? And it's actually not a bug. People get mad about that, like the rich get richer.

you are interesting. And you consistently share interesting things, And then when groups of people think you're interesting, it's even more powerful. Right? Because then another person comes in and just says, oh, everybody thinks this guy's actually cool. I'll follow. Right? Like, which is why the more Twitter followers you get, the more you're gonna get. Right? And it's actually not a bug. People get mad about that, like the rich get richer.

01:20:49

It's not a bad thing. It's actually a useful mental shortcut that people who have earned the following are probably likely worth following with some exceptions, but It is a useful hack versus I have to individually vet every account to figure out who I wanna follow. That's the slow way. Like, I'm going to follow the people that other people follow. That is

It's not a bad thing. It's actually a useful mental shortcut that people who have earned the following are probably likely worth following with some exceptions, but It is a useful hack versus I have to individually vet every account to figure out who I wanna follow. That's the slow way. Like, I'm going to follow the people that other people follow. That is

01:21:08

it sounds just like, oh, you're just being a lettuce part of the herd mentality or groupthink or whatever, but there's a reason it exists. There's like a evolutionary advantage to doing it too, which is it saves you a lot of time of having to individually vet every person. So I would say to that person who wants that distribution, it's cool. That's one interesting thing. Let's do twenty. And, you know, start with your friends, start with your friends and families, start with some group chats, start with, you know, maybe you have to push the wheel a little bit, you know, send it to some people who might find that interesting that you know of with a personalized message of why you think they might find that interesting. Yeah. You're gonna have to do some of that hustle at the beginning to get to get the word out, but you should also not, like,

it sounds just like, oh, you're just being a lettuce part of the herd mentality or groupthink or whatever, but there's a reason it exists. There's like a evolutionary advantage to doing it too, which is it saves you a lot of time of having to individually vet every person. So I would say to that person who wants that distribution, it's cool. That's one interesting thing. Let's do twenty. And, you know, start with your friends, start with your friends and families, start with some group chats, start with, you know, maybe you have to push the wheel a little bit, you know, send it to some people who might find that interesting that you know of with a personalized message of why you think they might find that interesting. Yeah. You're gonna have to do some of that hustle at the beginning to get to get the word out, but you should also not, like,

01:21:46

have some expectations that just because you said one interesting thing,

have some expectations that just because you said one interesting thing,

01:21:50

it

it

01:21:51

it deserves to be, you know, spread everywhere. That's not really how it works. Right?

it deserves to be, you know, spread everywhere. That's not really how it works. Right?

01:21:55

On Twitter itself,

On Twitter itself,

01:21:57

you have built a huge audience without writing that many things. And you've had a few things that have just absolutely cranked. What do you think that you understand about that platform and communicating there that other people are missing.

you have built a huge audience without writing that many things. And you've had a few things that have just absolutely cranked. What do you think that you understand about that platform and communicating there that other people are missing.

01:22:10

Well,

Well,

01:22:12

I'll say this. I think

I'll say this. I think

01:22:15

Hey. What I did worked on Twitter. So, basically, I I remember I was at twenty thousand followers, which is a lot in general, but I was like, I'm gonna get to a hundred. Now I'm at I'm at four hundred. So I, like, oh, I way over shot that goal.

Hey. What I did worked on Twitter. So, basically, I I remember I was at twenty thousand followers, which is a lot in general, but I was like, I'm gonna get to a hundred. Now I'm at I'm at four hundred. So I, like, oh, I way over shot that goal.

01:22:28

Four hundred thousand followers, but it most I'd say as I'd say the generic best practices be consistent

Four hundred thousand followers, but it most I'd say as I'd say the generic best practices be consistent

01:22:33

and, define what your niche is and then talk about stuff in that niche.

and, define what your niche is and then talk about stuff in that niche.

01:22:38

I don't really do that. So I would say I defy that, but I don't think that's what helped I think I almost won in spite of doing that. I think if I had been more consistent

I don't really do that. So I would say I defy that, but I don't think that's what helped I think I almost won in spite of doing that. I think if I had been more consistent

01:22:46

and I had to find my niche, I would be at a million followers instead of four hundred thousand. So Let me put that out there. Even though I didn't follow the best practices,

and I had to find my niche, I would be at a million followers instead of four hundred thousand. So Let me put that out there. Even though I didn't follow the best practices,

01:22:53

I don't think the right takeaway is

I don't think the right takeaway is

01:22:56

those are the wrong. I think the right takeaway is it would have been even bigger had I followed those. The one thing I did get right was

those are the wrong. I think the right takeaway is it would have been even bigger had I followed those. The one thing I did get right was

01:23:03

I knew when everybody's attention was on a certain subject, I had an interesting take.

I knew when everybody's attention was on a certain subject, I had an interesting take.

01:23:08

It's not my writing so much as it is a thinking. I I'm sure I haven't listed all your interviews, but I am sure one of the most common themes is that

It's not my writing so much as it is a thinking. I I'm sure I haven't listed all your interviews, but I am sure one of the most common themes is that

01:23:17

Great writing is just great thinking.

Great writing is just great thinking.

01:23:19

Clear writing, it says clear thinking.

Clear writing, it says clear thinking.

01:23:21

Writing helps you think better and think better thinking helps you write better. They're so tightly intertwined

Writing helps you think better and think better thinking helps you write better. They're so tightly intertwined

01:23:26

that the unhelpful,

that the unhelpful,

01:23:28

but true advice is I think I had an interesting thought to say. And I said it at the right time when people were paying attention to that subject,

but true advice is I think I had an interesting thought to say. And I said it at the right time when people were paying attention to that subject,

01:23:36

And then thirdly, I wrote it in an interesting way that helped the spread of it.

And then thirdly, I wrote it in an interesting way that helped the spread of it.

01:23:41

I wrote some thread about the Metiverse that went super viral.

I wrote some thread about the Metiverse that went super viral.

01:23:44

And I don't think it's because of how I wrote it. I think it's because the thought in it was genuinely a good thought.

And I don't think it's because of how I wrote it. I think it's because the thought in it was genuinely a good thought.

01:23:50

Like I remember, at the time, Facebook had just rebranded to Meta. And Zuck went on Lylex Friedman podcast. I was like, yeah. I read this really interesting thing on Twitter blah blah. It's like, he wasn't saying it because my prose was great, or my grammar was great, or my hook was he he read it because he thought the core idea, underlying idea was unique and interesting.

Like I remember, at the time, Facebook had just rebranded to Meta. And Zuck went on Lylex Friedman podcast. I was like, yeah. I read this really interesting thing on Twitter blah blah. It's like, he wasn't saying it because my prose was great, or my grammar was great, or my hook was he he read it because he thought the core idea, underlying idea was unique and interesting.

01:24:07

And I think that's more what to strive for is, like, you're building up these two skill sets, having unique and interesting things to say, being good at packaging ideas.

And I think that's more what to strive for is, like, you're building up these two skill sets, having unique and interesting things to say, being good at packaging ideas.

01:24:17

Two distinct skill sets, you can't do only one and not the other, or it'll reveal itself to be pretty shallow. If you just have interesting to say a crappy packaging, you don't get very far. If you have great packaging, but mundane things to say, people get very fatigued of it. It doesn't really work. One of the

Two distinct skill sets, you can't do only one and not the other, or it'll reveal itself to be pretty shallow. If you just have interesting to say a crappy packaging, you don't get very far. If you have great packaging, but mundane things to say, people get very fatigued of it. It doesn't really work. One of the

01:24:32

ways that I like to judge a writer is, like, if I, like I said, measure when I read their stuff is, like, how good is this person at building a connection with their readers? So some writers, like, let's take chat GPT. But chat GPT is, like, a zero. Right? That can be super informative. Right? It's You learn a lot, but you're not actually building any sort of emotional connection. Same thing with Wikipedia. Right?

ways that I like to judge a writer is, like, if I, like I said, measure when I read their stuff is, like, how good is this person at building a connection with their readers? So some writers, like, let's take chat GPT. But chat GPT is, like, a zero. Right? That can be super informative. Right? It's You learn a lot, but you're not actually building any sort of emotional connection. Same thing with Wikipedia. Right?

01:24:56

And then there's other people like you. I think this is something that you're very intentional about, and I think that for

And then there's other people like you. I think this is something that you're very intentional about, and I think that for

01:25:04

the average word that you have, there is, like, a real connection that is built. And I think that you're really focused on that because of your goals as a creator.

the average word that you have, there is, like, a real connection that is built. And I think that you're really focused on that because of your goals as a creator.

01:25:14

And how do you go about doing that writing so that it's not gonna be just this one and done? But so there's actually gonna be, like, a glue of, like, Sean, like, I like this guy wanna consume his stuff. And, actually, I wanna consume his stuff every single day.

And how do you go about doing that writing so that it's not gonna be just this one and done? But so there's actually gonna be, like, a glue of, like, Sean, like, I like this guy wanna consume his stuff. And, actually, I wanna consume his stuff every single day.

01:25:27

When you say connection, do what do you mean by that? You mean trust? Do you mean

When you say connection, do what do you mean by that? You mean trust? Do you mean

01:25:31

Likeability, what do you mean?

Likeability, what do you mean?

01:25:33

I think what I mean is an indispensibility

I think what I mean is an indispensibility

01:25:36

from that creator. So I did the lamest thing ever once. I hired a consultant

from that creator. So I did the lamest thing ever once. I hired a consultant

01:25:43

who was an expert at personal branding.

who was an expert at personal branding.

01:25:50

That feels like almost feels like you're not even being serious.

That feels like almost feels like you're not even being serious.

01:25:55

I Brand it as the lamest thing ever. I'm aware how lame it was.

I Brand it as the lamest thing ever. I'm aware how lame it was.

01:25:59

And it's not like I was like, oh, I wanna change my image or whatever, but I was like, well,

And it's not like I was like, oh, I wanna change my image or whatever, but I was like, well,

01:26:04

truth be told, if I am a creator, that means I am kind of a individual brand, okay. So what

truth be told, if I am a creator, that means I am kind of a individual brand, okay. So what

01:26:11

and this person worked with all these people. So I was like, alright. Let's do this. It goes back to the theme of what is something that is super important that people What's something that's valuable? The other people either overlook

and this person worked with all these people. So I was like, alright. Let's do this. It goes back to the theme of what is something that is super important that people What's something that's valuable? The other people either overlook

01:26:20

or actually would be embarrassed to do. Totally. And your boys are not embarrassed. So I'll do it. So I hire this guy.

or actually would be embarrassed to do. Totally. And your boys are not embarrassed. So I'll do it. So I hire this guy.

01:26:27

And,

And,

01:26:28

I stood out and we talked and I'm like, okay. I learned a bunch of things from them. One of the things he taught me was you guys

I stood out and we talked and I'm like, okay. I learned a bunch of things from them. One of the things he taught me was you guys

01:26:34

people will follow you to the ends of the earth if

people will follow you to the ends of the earth if

01:26:39

you are giving them a feeling

you are giving them a feeling

01:26:42

that they can't get anywhere else more consistently than anybody else is gonna give it to them. So what does that mean? He basically was like, think of yourself as a little Shopify store And your only SKU, your little your merchant.

that they can't get anywhere else more consistently than anybody else is gonna give it to them. So what does that mean? He basically was like, think of yourself as a little Shopify store And your only SKU, your little your merchant.

01:26:54

Got them. Your your merchant your your only SKU is basically one

Got them. Your your merchant your your only SKU is basically one

01:27:00

how somebody feels after the consumer content? So for example,

how somebody feels after the consumer content? So for example,

01:27:05

I used to love Ted Ted back in the TED talks. I remember Ted talks absolutely. Ted talks used to be the shit. Now they were so good. People make fun of them or whatever. Twenty fourteen. Hey, they talked well in twenty fourteen. Ted touch with a shit. And,

I used to love Ted Ted back in the TED talks. I remember Ted talks absolutely. Ted talks used to be the shit. Now they were so good. People make fun of them or whatever. Twenty fourteen. Hey, they talked well in twenty fourteen. Ted touch with a shit. And,

01:27:16

or even before I was in college with the they were cool. So

or even before I was in college with the they were cool. So

01:27:19

why do I like a TEDTok? Even the sound of music of the the whoosh out of a TED Talk or the intro sought the sound. The the way that it looked, it was like this, like,

why do I like a TEDTok? Even the sound of music of the the whoosh out of a TED Talk or the intro sought the sound. The the way that it looked, it was like this, like,

01:27:29

training. Like, Pablo, pavlovian training of, like, you're gonna hear one really cool idea

training. Like, Pablo, pavlovian training of, like, you're gonna hear one really cool idea

01:27:36

in eighteen minutes, and you're gonna walk away feeling inspired. No. And so inspired about the world in some way, aspired to either go do something, inspired that the world is improving in some way, inspired to make a change, whatever.

in eighteen minutes, and you're gonna walk away feeling inspired. No. And so inspired about the world in some way, aspired to either go do something, inspired that the world is improving in some way, inspired to make a change, whatever.

01:27:47

And Ted is a merchant of inspiration.

And Ted is a merchant of inspiration.

01:27:50

And so

And so

01:27:51

I thought about that. I was like, oh, yeah. That's right. I I listened to these comedy podcasts. Why? Because I get this feeling that I'm hanging out with my my my friends, my funny friends, but, like, they're not my friends. They're just comedians that hang out, but that's why I think comedy podcasts are so popular. Because they can consistently give somebody the feeling of camaraderie,

I thought about that. I was like, oh, yeah. That's right. I I listened to these comedy podcasts. Why? Because I get this feeling that I'm hanging out with my my my friends, my funny friends, but, like, they're not my friends. They're just comedians that hang out, but that's why I think comedy podcasts are so popular. Because they can consistently give somebody the feeling of camaraderie,

01:28:09

bullshit with your boys without you ever having to, like, actually be funny, have funny friends, and go hang out. Right? And so, like, you're getting that without the cost. Amazing.

bullshit with your boys without you ever having to, like, actually be funny, have funny friends, and go hang out. Right? And so, like, you're getting that without the cost. Amazing.

01:28:19

And,

And,

01:28:21

So anyways, but and this is why, like, you know, we got acquired by Twitch. People watch Twitch. People watch other people play video games because you get the feeling of playing a video game without having to actually sit down and buy a system, buy the game, get good at the game and play the game, you get the same rush watching this guy try to win just by watching. It's it's kind of amazing.

So anyways, but and this is why, like, you know, we got acquired by Twitch. People watch Twitch. People watch other people play video games because you get the feeling of playing a video game without having to actually sit down and buy a system, buy the game, get good at the game and play the game, you get the same rush watching this guy try to win just by watching. It's it's kind of amazing.

01:28:38

So

So

01:28:39

Once I realized that, I was like, oh, okay. Skye's right.

Once I realized that, I was like, oh, okay. Skye's right.

01:28:43

You know, what I gotta do is pick what feeling I want people to have And then I gotta deliver all I gotta focus on is delivering that to them more consistently than anybody else gonna give it to them. If I do that,

You know, what I gotta do is pick what feeling I want people to have And then I gotta deliver all I gotta focus on is delivering that to them more consistently than anybody else gonna give it to them. If I do that,

01:28:53

all my personal brain dreams will come true.

all my personal brain dreams will come true.

01:28:57

You know, so that was the the big takeaway. That was the less I had there. So when you say it seems like you're intentional about it, that's what it that's the underlying thing that it is is picking up front, what am I trying to deliver? What's the what's that feeling? And they consistently be like, alright. Can I do that? What's a story I could tell? What's a framework I could give them? What's a nugget I could give them? That would that would do that for them.

You know, so that was the the big takeaway. That was the less I had there. So when you say it seems like you're intentional about it, that's what it that's the underlying thing that it is is picking up front, what am I trying to deliver? What's the what's that feeling? And they consistently be like, alright. Can I do that? What's a story I could tell? What's a framework I could give them? What's a nugget I could give them? That would that would do that for them.

01:29:18

It seems like I wanna talk about editing, and it seems like

It seems like I wanna talk about editing, and it seems like

01:29:22

your thing is that you're really good at writing for straps. And, actually, you're not, like, you don't seem like somebody who's like an eighth revision. I'm gonna put this away for, you know, six years kinda guy with editing. You seem like you're pretty off the cuff. You're sort of like Miss Excel. Does they wanna have the emotion wanna have? I would guess then you sit down, you write it, then you go away for a few hours, you know, maybe go in a while. Come back. Look at it. Ship it off. Right? So for you, let's

your thing is that you're really good at writing for straps. And, actually, you're not, like, you don't seem like somebody who's like an eighth revision. I'm gonna put this away for, you know, six years kinda guy with editing. You seem like you're pretty off the cuff. You're sort of like Miss Excel. Does they wanna have the emotion wanna have? I would guess then you sit down, you write it, then you go away for a few hours, you know, maybe go in a while. Come back. Look at it. Ship it off. Right? So for you, let's

01:29:47

bring together emotion,

bring together emotion,

01:29:49

editing.

editing.

01:29:50

How do you edit for the sort of emotion that you're talking about there?

How do you edit for the sort of emotion that you're talking about there?

01:29:55

Okay. First thing I learned was from Sam par. He has his principal. I think he came on your show too, which is the walk away. So you fur you you do the shitty draft you dump it.

Okay. First thing I learned was from Sam par. He has his principal. I think he came on your show too, which is the walk away. So you fur you you do the shitty draft you dump it.

01:30:06

And

And

01:30:07

I kinda knew editing was important.

I kinda knew editing was important.

01:30:09

And the mistake I used to make is I'd edit right away. That's terrible idea. Don't do that. So you first do your research and your thinking.

And the mistake I used to make is I'd edit right away. That's terrible idea. Don't do that. So you first do your research and your thinking.

01:30:17

You dump your you do a quick brained up, and you gotta walk away. So you you read it. Well, the last thing I do, I read what I wrote, and then I'm gonna, like, forget about it. So I then will go do stuff. So I will go work out. I'll go play with my kids. I'll go for a walk. And I'm not trying to think about it at all. I know. I'll come back to that later. And I know it sucks today. I'm gonna go I'm gonna edit it later and make it great. I'm certain of that, but I don't consciously think about it. And then I come back to it. Usually, let's say, four hours, six hours, eight hours, twenty four hours later.

You dump your you do a quick brained up, and you gotta walk away. So you you read it. Well, the last thing I do, I read what I wrote, and then I'm gonna, like, forget about it. So I then will go do stuff. So I will go work out. I'll go play with my kids. I'll go for a walk. And I'm not trying to think about it at all. I know. I'll come back to that later. And I know it sucks today. I'm gonna go I'm gonna edit it later and make it great. I'm certain of that, but I don't consciously think about it. And then I come back to it. Usually, let's say, four hours, six hours, eight hours, twenty four hours later.

01:30:47

And I'll read the thing. And immediately, I'll be like, oh, this is bad, bad. Change this. Oh, why don't I talk about this instead? Or I wanted it to have this takeaway I don't think it has that right now. Alright. Where would I punch that up? Like, I wouldn't have wrote this if I didn't think it had the potential to give you that because I was a very intentional upfront thinking this will do it. Not coming through

And I'll read the thing. And immediately, I'll be like, oh, this is bad, bad. Change this. Oh, why don't I talk about this instead? Or I wanted it to have this takeaway I don't think it has that right now. Alright. Where would I punch that up? Like, I wouldn't have wrote this if I didn't think it had the potential to give you that because I was a very intentional upfront thinking this will do it. Not coming through

01:31:07

where, and the the analogy I'll use is like. Imagine our rivers flowing. So,

where, and the the analogy I'll use is like. Imagine our rivers flowing. So,

01:31:12

there's a useful analogy because

there's a useful analogy because

01:31:14

I think a lot of people are, like, there's nothing there and make it happen. Another

I think a lot of people are, like, there's nothing there and make it happen. Another

01:31:20

story you could tell yourself is, it's a river. The water wants to flow. My ideas are excellent. People are gonna love this. They want to consume this, and my ideas are worth consuming, but there's some rocks in the river that are blocking the flow. What are the rocks I gotta do if I just simply remove those, the water will flow. Nice. It was a more empowering thing for me versus, like, I gotta make this good. It's bad. I gotta create good. It's like, no. I kind of assume

story you could tell yourself is, it's a river. The water wants to flow. My ideas are excellent. People are gonna love this. They want to consume this, and my ideas are worth consuming, but there's some rocks in the river that are blocking the flow. What are the rocks I gotta do if I just simply remove those, the water will flow. Nice. It was a more empowering thing for me versus, like, I gotta make this good. It's bad. I gotta create good. It's like, no. I kind of assume

01:31:43

I got to the board of writing something, it's gotta be, like, there's something good in it. I just gotta remove the suck out of it. Right? The Pixar uses that that analogy too. They say,

I got to the board of writing something, it's gotta be, like, there's something good in it. I just gotta remove the suck out of it. Right? The Pixar uses that that analogy too. They say,

01:31:52

all movies we make start with start with suck. And our only job is to just remove the suck with every draft, so they do another revision. Say, what sucks about it now? Well, it sucks that the main character's not that likable because blah, blah, blah, so then they remove that suck and then come back again. That's kind of the same mindset. I'll just look at it after after I come back, and I'll say, is this doing what I want it done? Do I think this is dope? Does this do what I want it to do? And if not, what are the rocks I can remove? What's the suck I can remove from this? This part's boring. This intro is doesn't really hint at what's gonna what's to come. This ending is just kinda like

all movies we make start with start with suck. And our only job is to just remove the suck with every draft, so they do another revision. Say, what sucks about it now? Well, it sucks that the main character's not that likable because blah, blah, blah, so then they remove that suck and then come back again. That's kind of the same mindset. I'll just look at it after after I come back, and I'll say, is this doing what I want it done? Do I think this is dope? Does this do what I want it to do? And if not, what are the rocks I can remove? What's the suck I can remove from this? This part's boring. This intro is doesn't really hint at what's gonna what's to come. This ending is just kinda like

01:32:27

so yeah.

so yeah.

01:32:28

That's it. That's the idea. I don't have a good ending. Okay. And so then I'll just find that area and I'll just try to fix that. Cool. How about with humor? What have you learned about writing with humor? Are you formulaic about that? Have you studied it?

That's it. That's the idea. I don't have a good ending. Okay. And so then I'll just find that area and I'll just try to fix that. Cool. How about with humor? What have you learned about writing with humor? Are you formulaic about that? Have you studied it?

01:32:40

That's where I'm looking now. Like, I'm starting to to pay attention.

That's where I'm looking now. Like, I'm starting to to pay attention.

01:32:45

What I've learned so far, I'll tell you what I've learned so far as, like, a white belt in the humor game is just,

What I've learned so far, I'll tell you what I've learned so far as, like, a white belt in the humor game is just,

01:32:51

you know,

you know,

01:32:53

You don't want it to be

You don't want it to be

01:32:55

humor is the sauce. It's not the entree. So some people are writing something to be funny. Like, it's this is meant to make you laugh.

humor is the sauce. It's not the entree. So some people are writing something to be funny. Like, it's this is meant to make you laugh.

01:33:02

Usually, that's not me. Usually, it's I'm trying to get a point across, but I'm gonna make you laugh along the way, which will make this more enjoyable for you to consume. So it's the sauce on the on the meal, but it's not the meat. Not the protein of the of the of the fame, which is good. Depressurizes it. It's like, oh, does it apply a little bit here?

Usually, that's not me. Usually, it's I'm trying to get a point across, but I'm gonna make you laugh along the way, which will make this more enjoyable for you to consume. So it's the sauce on the on the meal, but it's not the meat. Not the protein of the of the of the fame, which is good. Depressurizes it. It's like, oh, does it apply a little bit here?

01:33:19

That's the first part. Second part is all humor is just surprise.

That's the first part. Second part is all humor is just surprise.

01:33:23

So,

So,

01:33:24

every joke is a set up and a punch line, but the punch line if you see the punch line coming, it's not very funny. So humor is surprise means

every joke is a set up and a punch line, but the punch line if you see the punch line coming, it's not very funny. So humor is surprise means

01:33:32

I have to set it up in a way where you don't anticipate this is what I'm gonna say and the contrast of what you thought I was gonna say And what I actually said is what makes you laugh. So you just kinda have to look for those moments where there's a bit of an expect you set up an expectation and then you subvert the expectation. Jerry Seinfeld, article in the New York Times. Here's how he starts it.

I have to set it up in a way where you don't anticipate this is what I'm gonna say and the contrast of what you thought I was gonna say And what I actually said is what makes you laugh. So you just kinda have to look for those moments where there's a bit of an expect you set up an expectation and then you subvert the expectation. Jerry Seinfeld, article in the New York Times. Here's how he starts it.

01:33:51

I knew this was gonna come come in clutch, and it just came in handy.

I knew this was gonna come come in clutch, and it just came in handy.

01:33:55

He goes,

He goes,

01:33:56

when I got my first apartment Manhattan in the hot summer of nineteen seventy six, there was no pooper scooper law. And the streets were covered in dog crap. I signed the rental agreement, stepped outside, and my car had been towed.

when I got my first apartment Manhattan in the hot summer of nineteen seventy six, there was no pooper scooper law. And the streets were covered in dog crap. I signed the rental agreement, stepped outside, and my car had been towed.

01:34:10

Despite this, I still thought this is the greatest place I've ever been in my life.

Despite this, I still thought this is the greatest place I've ever been in my life.

01:34:15

Exactly. Sets it out. Pooper scooper, funny word, yeah, what's going on there? And I think that maybe we can go into funny words because it is interesting how certain words have a much higher propensity to be funny than other ones. Right? If he has said there is no law around

Exactly. Sets it out. Pooper scooper, funny word, yeah, what's going on there? And I think that maybe we can go into funny words because it is interesting how certain words have a much higher propensity to be funny than other ones. Right? If he has said there is no law around

01:34:30

cleaning up your dog's extrament that that now is very pooper scooper is, like, jovial, funny. Right? Exactly. And he then he goes and goes sort of takes him to this other time period. You're thinking about poop, but then he goes,

cleaning up your dog's extrament that that now is very pooper scooper is, like, jovial, funny. Right? Exactly. And he then he goes and goes sort of takes him to this other time period. You're thinking about poop, but then he goes,

01:34:42

My car had been towed and you're like, oh my goodness. This sounds terrible. And then you said surprise, which is why I thought about that, he goes, despite this, I still thought. This is the greatest place I've ever been in my life. And this is in, like, this ode to New York City. Theo von is super That's exactly who I was thinking about. Super popular right now. So good. And he's been great. I followed him since, like, the real world days, basically, road rules days. And so he's

My car had been towed and you're like, oh my goodness. This sounds terrible. And then you said surprise, which is why I thought about that, he goes, despite this, I still thought. This is the greatest place I've ever been in my life. And this is in, like, this ode to New York City. Theo von is super That's exactly who I was thinking about. Super popular right now. So good. And he's been great. I followed him since, like, the real world days, basically, road rules days. And so he's

01:35:06

if you just listen to him talk that his brain just does something different. He's his brain is, like, almost wired different. That was my initial story, but I was, like, I bet you could practice theo bonding a little bit. As because, like, what Theo does, if you've never seen them, that's not gonna make any sense. But if you've seen them, this will make all the sense in the world, which is that Theo Von will basically,

if you just listen to him talk that his brain just does something different. He's his brain is, like, almost wired different. That was my initial story, but I was, like, I bet you could practice theo bonding a little bit. As because, like, what Theo does, if you've never seen them, that's not gonna make any sense. But if you've seen them, this will make all the sense in the world, which is that Theo Von will basically,

01:35:24

he has no idea what he's gonna say, but he improvises that he uses random language, or he'll make up a story that makes that is totally not true, but it's kinda believable when he keeps us, you know, a a dead pen face when he's doing it.

he has no idea what he's gonna say, but he improvises that he uses random language, or he'll make up a story that makes that is totally not true, but it's kinda believable when he keeps us, you know, a a dead pen face when he's doing it.

01:35:37

You can kinda practice that. And so

You can kinda practice that. And so

01:35:40

Yeah. I think, you know, practicing is is obviously the best way to do it. Well, that's a big one. Let's follow this made up language coming up with words, things that other people hadn't thought of. And

Yeah. I think, you know, practicing is is obviously the best way to do it. Well, that's a big one. Let's follow this made up language coming up with words, things that other people hadn't thought of. And

01:35:51

how do you go about doing that? Like, it's a fun little thing to play around with. One of the things that I did is I like the thinking through the juxtaposition.

how do you go about doing that? Like, it's a fun little thing to play around with. One of the things that I did is I like the thinking through the juxtaposition.

01:35:59

So I

So I

01:36:00

wrote a piece about how I fell in love with the Bible, and I was like, it needs some little bit of humor in it because it's, you know, it's too valuable. Right? It's it's it's this.

wrote a piece about how I fell in love with the Bible, and I was like, it needs some little bit of humor in it because it's, you know, it's too valuable. Right? It's it's it's this.

01:36:11

It activates a part of your brain where you're like, okay, this is

It activates a part of your brain where you're like, okay, this is

01:36:16

Exactly. Right? Bible should actually just say, babe, and that should be the whole thing.

Exactly. Right? Bible should actually just say, babe, and that should be the whole thing.

01:36:21

Exactly. So it activates that. I was like, I need something that's funny. So I was like, okay. What is the emotional state that somebody's in? I was like, working on it. I was like, serious, you know, you think of almost like this fancy library. And then I'm like,

Exactly. So it activates that. I was like, I need something that's funny. So I was like, okay. What is the emotional state that somebody's in? I was like, working on it. I was like, serious, you know, you think of almost like this fancy library. And then I'm like,

01:36:33

I would do my bible studies at a Schlotzsky

I would do my bible studies at a Schlotzsky

01:36:37

parking lot in a strip ball in the hill country. And now you just get this juxtaposition. I'm not sure it was like that funny, but I think that it adds so much life to the piece. And I always try to think of, like, if I'm trying to be funny or create suspense, what is the emotional state that the readers in for most of this piece. And then let me just like what you're saying, like, spring a little bit of tabasco sauce of the opposite. Yes. Yes. That's exactly right. And I think, you know, an exercise you can do is,

parking lot in a strip ball in the hill country. And now you just get this juxtaposition. I'm not sure it was like that funny, but I think that it adds so much life to the piece. And I always try to think of, like, if I'm trying to be funny or create suspense, what is the emotional state that the readers in for most of this piece. And then let me just like what you're saying, like, spring a little bit of tabasco sauce of the opposite. Yes. Yes. That's exactly right. And I think, you know, an exercise you can do is,

01:37:03

so like a theobhan exercise is basically he takes a thing. So let's say it's the Bible.

so like a theobhan exercise is basically he takes a thing. So let's say it's the Bible.

01:37:09

So it's the Bible.

So it's the Bible.

01:37:10

But what a Theo humor, like, kinda lame he does is he'll ex he'll call the Bible something else. That's kind of funny. Like, he'll be like, you know, he'll be like, man, that Jesus is binder.

But what a Theo humor, like, kinda lame he does is he'll ex he'll call the Bible something else. That's kind of funny. Like, he'll be like, you know, he'll be like, man, that Jesus is binder.

01:37:21

And he'll be like, this is the it's the Bible, but now he calls it Jesus Binder. Then he'll do another one. And he'll be like, he's like, that'll you know, like, the old Himalayan diary, and he's like, what? What he's saying? Like, he he just keeps coming up with different ways to say the Bible. Or he's it'll just be like, you know, that that big brown behavior book. And, like, he'll just keep going. And, like, I never never done this before, but, like, you could try that. So you could just take anything and be like, I'm gonna come up with six. Like, I'm just gonna keep going. And it's so hard to do. Like, when I was doing it. I don't know. I was like, why the hell are you trying to do this live on a podcast? But

And he'll be like, this is the it's the Bible, but now he calls it Jesus Binder. Then he'll do another one. And he'll be like, he's like, that'll you know, like, the old Himalayan diary, and he's like, what? What he's saying? Like, he he just keeps coming up with different ways to say the Bible. Or he's it'll just be like, you know, that that big brown behavior book. And, like, he'll just keep going. And, like, I never never done this before, but, like, you could try that. So you could just take anything and be like, I'm gonna come up with six. Like, I'm just gonna keep going. And it's so hard to do. Like, when I was doing it. I don't know. I was like, why the hell are you trying to do this live on a podcast? But

01:37:52

that's how you get back. Right? So, you know, doing that is it trains your brain in a very different way of thinking than we are used to. And that pays off because, again,

that's how you get back. Right? So, you know, doing that is it trains your brain in a very different way of thinking than we are used to. And that pays off because, again,

01:38:03

common traits uncommonly together is very, very valuable. You don't need to be the funniest nor do you need to be the smartest. If you're pretty smart and you're kinda funny, you're, like, the best. You know? And so that's that's my whole strategy. It was basically to do that. It was, like, I know I'm not funny enough to be a comedian.

common traits uncommonly together is very, very valuable. You don't need to be the funniest nor do you need to be the smartest. If you're pretty smart and you're kinda funny, you're, like, the best. You know? And so that's that's my whole strategy. It was basically to do that. It was, like, I know I'm not funny enough to be a comedian.

01:38:20

But I'm funnier than the average smart guy, and I'm smarter than the average guy. So it's, like, pretty smart, kinda funny.

But I'm funnier than the average smart guy, and I'm smarter than the average guy. So it's, like, pretty smart, kinda funny.

01:38:28

That's a good call. Well, it's funny because,

That's a good call. Well, it's funny because,

01:38:31

I went to, you know, it was a church last weekend, and I was with a friend,

I went to, you know, it was a church last weekend, and I was with a friend,

01:38:36

and

and

01:38:37

basically,

basically,

01:38:38

we after the service, she was like, man, you know, that was, that was really good sermon. And I was like, well, what do you like about

we after the service, she was like, man, you know, that was, that was really good sermon. And I was like, well, what do you like about

01:38:46

about the pastor.

about the pastor.

01:38:48

And she was like,

And she was like,

01:38:49

you know, he does a really good job of

you know, he does a really good job of

01:38:52

talking about very serious sort of, like, weighty things, but then layering in tons of humor. Right? So, like,

talking about very serious sort of, like, weighty things, but then layering in tons of humor. Right? So, like,

01:39:00

he was talking about

he was talking about

01:39:01

He was talking about, you know, you could've said good people go to the light, and they're focused on moral values and integrity,

He was talking about, you know, you could've said good people go to the light, and they're focused on moral values and integrity,

01:39:10

and bad people move to the darkness, and they run away from, you know, righteousness and stuff.

and bad people move to the darkness, and they run away from, you know, righteousness and stuff.

01:39:15

And you're like, okay. That's not right. And he goes,

And you're like, okay. That's not right. And he goes,

01:39:19

At any moment, you can either be a cockroach

At any moment, you can either be a cockroach

01:39:22

or a moth. Right. And I grew up in South Carolina.

or a moth. Right. And I grew up in South Carolina.

01:39:25

And, you know, you go into the pantry sometimes.

And, you know, you go into the pantry sometimes.

01:39:28

And there's some cockroaches on the ground. And, like, you wanna step on those things, but those things fly. And they go all over the place, and, like, they'll start eating your ritz crackers. I'll swear those cockroaches are so big. They can practically pick up the babies, and they'll take them to cockroach land or wherever. Right? And cockroaches

And there's some cockroaches on the ground. And, like, you wanna step on those things, but those things fly. And they go all over the place, and, like, they'll start eating your ritz crackers. I'll swear those cockroaches are so big. They can practically pick up the babies, and they'll take them to cockroach land or wherever. Right? And cockroaches

01:39:45

they run away from the light. Right. And then you have your moths and the moths that go to the light. And so then he, like, weaves these cockroaches and the moths throughout the entire survey. So you're getting this, like, chuckle, but then through the chuckle, it's like creating this avenue for, like, extreme depths.

they run away from the light. Right. And then you have your moths and the moths that go to the light. And so then he, like, weaves these cockroaches and the moths throughout the entire survey. So you're getting this, like, chuckle, but then through the chuckle, it's like creating this avenue for, like, extreme depths.

01:40:01

And somehow it's in the juxtaposition of those two things that the sermon ends up really hitting and the humor, like, lowers your defenses on, like, needing to be a super, you know, perfect person and all that. And it's like, okay, we can have some fun here, but then the fun actually allows us to then get to the depth. That's framing. Right? He framed it differently. Same principle, framed differently. All of a sudden, more accessible,

And somehow it's in the juxtaposition of those two things that the sermon ends up really hitting and the humor, like, lowers your defenses on, like, needing to be a super, you know, perfect person and all that. And it's like, okay, we can have some fun here, but then the fun actually allows us to then get to the depth. That's framing. Right? He framed it differently. Same principle, framed differently. All of a sudden, more accessible,

01:40:25

more fun, more more entertaining, more memorable, and memorability is is massively underrated.

more fun, more more entertaining, more memorable, and memorability is is massively underrated.

01:40:30

You know, what's the point of having the good ideas if

You know, what's the point of having the good ideas if

01:40:34

nobody remembers them. Right? Like, in a part of your job,

nobody remembers them. Right? Like, in a part of your job,

01:40:38

a responsibility if you actually have something worth

a responsibility if you actually have something worth

01:40:41

worth remembering

worth remembering

01:40:42

is to take the time and effort to package it in a way that is gonna be catchy and memorable.

is to take the time and effort to package it in a way that is gonna be catchy and memorable.

01:40:47

My buddy, Trevor, who's my roommate in college,

My buddy, Trevor, who's my roommate in college,

01:40:50

he, he made his whole career doing one thing. He basically reads what white papers, which are like scientific journals,

he, he made his whole career doing one thing. He basically reads what white papers, which are like scientific journals,

01:40:56

They're the most, like, boring, like, read the abstract, read the whole study, whatever. People it's crazy. They scientists spend their whole life working on this thing, and then they package it in the dullest format possible,

They're the most, like, boring, like, read the abstract, read the whole study, whatever. People it's crazy. They scientists spend their whole life working on this thing, and then they package it in the dullest format possible,

01:41:06

get with pride because that's, like, a, yeah, high status. High status for them.

get with pride because that's, like, a, yeah, high status. High status for them.

01:41:11

It's like it's so

It's like it's so

01:41:13

boring that only another person who's dedicated their life to this would possibly read this, which means that none of the insights take get take it to the real world until, you know, somebody comes in and builds that bridge. So he built that bridge. He's he would go learn something.

boring that only another person who's dedicated their life to this would possibly read this, which means that none of the insights take get take it to the real world until, you know, somebody comes in and builds that bridge. So he built that bridge. He's he would go learn something.

01:41:27

He'd read this and he'd go talk to the scientists, like, some, you know, somebody's been doing this for fifty years. And, you know, the number of people who follow them and listen to them is, like, you know, thirty five. And then my buddy started writing a blog and newsletter that eventually YouTube He built, like, a hundred thousand person email list about a really, like, dry subject, which is, like, you know,

He'd read this and he'd go talk to the scientists, like, some, you know, somebody's been doing this for fifty years. And, you know, the number of people who follow them and listen to them is, like, you know, thirty five. And then my buddy started writing a blog and newsletter that eventually YouTube He built, like, a hundred thousand person email list about a really, like, dry subject, which is, like, you know,

01:41:46

growth mind set, which is like how it applies into classrooms and stuff like that. And so he the way he did it was the same type of frame. He's like, imagine two tigers.

growth mind set, which is like how it applies into classrooms and stuff like that. And so he the way he did it was the same type of frame. He's like, imagine two tigers.

01:41:55

One tiger grew up in the zoo,

One tiger grew up in the zoo,

01:41:58

and and, you know, a tiger that grows up in the zoo, you know, and he does he'll teach this to, like, third graders, or you'll teach it to the New York Yankee.

and and, you know, a tiger that grows up in the zoo, you know, and he does he'll teach this to, like, third graders, or you'll teach it to the New York Yankee.

01:42:05

You know, CEOs of companies or, you know, kids, basically. He does the same speech, both the folk. Because it's so easy to easy to understand. So memorable. He's like,

You know, CEOs of companies or, you know, kids, basically. He does the same speech, both the folk. Because it's so easy to easy to understand. So memorable. He's like,

01:42:14

Tiger, Tiger that grows up in the in the zoo, has her life been easy or fun? Pretty easy. Right? Do they fight for their own food or is it given to them? It's given to them. Okay. Cool.

Tiger, Tiger that grows up in the in the zoo, has her life been easy or fun? Pretty easy. Right? Do they fight for their own food or is it given to them? It's given to them. Okay. Cool.

01:42:24

Jungle tiger, jungle tigers, life, hard. Right? Lots of adversity, have to fight for their own food. They know how to survive. Blah blah. If you take a,

Jungle tiger, jungle tigers, life, hard. Right? Lots of adversity, have to fight for their own food. They know how to survive. Blah blah. If you take a,

01:42:31

jungle tiger and you put it in the zoo, what happens? They're like, it'll get bored. Say, if you think a zoo tie, you're putting it in the jungle, what happens? It's like, dead. Like, it doesn't know how to survive. And he's basically like, you wanna be a jungle tie. Right? Like, and how do you do that? Well, you have to get out of your comfort zone, the zoo, where everything is easy and handed to you. And

jungle tiger and you put it in the zoo, what happens? They're like, it'll get bored. Say, if you think a zoo tie, you're putting it in the jungle, what happens? It's like, dead. Like, it doesn't know how to survive. And he's basically like, you wanna be a jungle tie. Right? Like, and how do you do that? Well, you have to get out of your comfort zone, the zoo, where everything is easy and handed to you. And

01:42:50

so when you reach those moments where you're out of your comfort zone, say to yourself, like, this is my jungle tiger, but I gotta juggle tiger this right now, because I have to go I have to put myself out of my comfort zone to do this. He gave them a language to remember a whole set of principles

so when you reach those moments where you're out of your comfort zone, say to yourself, like, this is my jungle tiger, but I gotta juggle tiger this right now, because I have to go I have to put myself out of my comfort zone to do this. He gave them a language to remember a whole set of principles

01:43:02

that were all previously packaged in very boring scientific terms.

that were all previously packaged in very boring scientific terms.

01:43:06

You know, one of the things that I'm

You know, one of the things that I'm

01:43:08

noticing from from you. Like, I always think, hey, I'm doing these interviews. Like, how is my writing process gonna change? And one of the biggest things I picked up is I don't need to learn from writers at all. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go study comedians,

noticing from from you. Like, I always think, hey, I'm doing these interviews. Like, how is my writing process gonna change? And one of the biggest things I picked up is I don't need to learn from writers at all. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go study comedians,

01:43:22

and I'm gonna be more deliberate

and I'm gonna be more deliberate

01:43:24

about finding communicators who I really like

about finding communicators who I really like

01:43:27

And then trying to say, what are they doing? And then bring that into my writing? And then also, I think that you really see a fluidity between mediums, that talking, writing, humor,

And then trying to say, what are they doing? And then bring that into my writing? And then also, I think that you really see a fluidity between mediums, that talking, writing, humor,

01:43:37

storytelling, these things can all sort of play together. And there's sort of, like, paint colors where, yeah, you can have, you know, you have the white paint, the black paint, the blue paint, the green paint, but then you can also have, like, you begin to mix them together, and then you can get all of these different colors, and that maybe we shouldn't be thinking about writing as, like, all these separate lanes Actually, for a lot of the different skills that you want to learn to make yourself a better writer, don't even study writers. The best people for that might be in a totally far off field. Yeah. Yeah. You you nailed it. Good job. You synthesized it very, very well. I I do think it's a good strategy.

storytelling, these things can all sort of play together. And there's sort of, like, paint colors where, yeah, you can have, you know, you have the white paint, the black paint, the blue paint, the green paint, but then you can also have, like, you begin to mix them together, and then you can get all of these different colors, and that maybe we shouldn't be thinking about writing as, like, all these separate lanes Actually, for a lot of the different skills that you want to learn to make yourself a better writer, don't even study writers. The best people for that might be in a totally far off field. Yeah. Yeah. You you nailed it. Good job. You synthesized it very, very well. I I do think it's a good strategy.

01:44:11

To basically pick and choose from adjacent fields because you're gonna do something different than other than you will only looking in your own lane. It becomes very

To basically pick and choose from adjacent fields because you're gonna do something different than other than you will only looking in your own lane. It becomes very

01:44:21

It's why everything becomes the same because we all look at the same things. We all study the same things. And so, like, you know, I was hanging out with mister Beast, and he said the same thing. I was like, what YouTube channels do you like? He's like, don't really watch YouTube that much anymore. Like, you're the number one YouTuber in the world. You, like, literally, even breathe YouTube. He's like, yeah, my channel. But then I was like, so where do you learn from? He's like, Well, right now, we think that one thing we're weak at is character development. So we study shows

It's why everything becomes the same because we all look at the same things. We all study the same things. And so, like, you know, I was hanging out with mister Beast, and he said the same thing. I was like, what YouTube channels do you like? He's like, don't really watch YouTube that much anymore. Like, you're the number one YouTuber in the world. You, like, literally, even breathe YouTube. He's like, yeah, my channel. But then I was like, so where do you learn from? He's like, Well, right now, we think that one thing we're weak at is character development. So we study shows

01:44:44

TV shows and movies that are good at character development. Or, whatever. And then he's, like, trying to steal from other areas, then he's, like, everybody else, if you're just on YouTube looking at other YouTube, you'll just become lost in a just sea of sameness.

TV shows and movies that are good at character development. Or, whatever. And then he's, like, trying to steal from other areas, then he's, like, everybody else, if you're just on YouTube looking at other YouTube, you'll just become lost in a just sea of sameness.

01:44:56

And, I I think that's a a useful tip for people to to take on. I wanna end here. If, you know, you built a newsletter called Milk Road, and you had to train another writer to write your voice. And you believe that learning to write is actually teachable. So when you're

And, I I think that's a a useful tip for people to to take on. I wanna end here. If, you know, you built a newsletter called Milk Road, and you had to train another writer to write your voice. And you believe that learning to write is actually teachable. So when you're

01:45:13

teaching other people to write, what were some of the things that you focused on?

teaching other people to write, what were some of the things that you focused on?

01:45:18

Yeah. So we

Yeah. So we

01:45:20

taught the teaching was important because I didn't want that. We had to send the email out every morning at, like, six AM. I'm not doing that.

taught the teaching was important because I didn't want that. We had to send the email out every morning at, like, six AM. I'm not doing that.

01:45:27

I'm not good with consistency, NC. Anyways, I don't wake up that early.

I'm not good with consistency, NC. Anyways, I don't wake up that early.

01:45:30

I know that no matter how fun this is, that I will hate doing by, like, day thirty. So from day one, I was like, I'm not gonna write this, but it's gonna be in my voice and style. How do you do that? I hired a guy who's never written before, and I sat him down, and I was like,

I know that no matter how fun this is, that I will hate doing by, like, day thirty. So from day one, I was like, I'm not gonna write this, but it's gonna be in my voice and style. How do you do that? I hired a guy who's never written before, and I sat him down, and I was like,

01:45:45

First, my business partner, I was like, you write this. And I was the editor. I was, like, I was his editor for thirty days. I said, cool. Now you're the editor. Now you gotta hire a writer. We hired a guy never written before,

First, my business partner, I was like, you write this. And I was the editor. I was, like, I was his editor for thirty days. I said, cool. Now you're the editor. Now you gotta hire a writer. We hired a guy never written before,

01:45:55

in any professional capacity or even blogged. I don't I don't think he had a blog either.

in any professional capacity or even blogged. I don't I don't think he had a blog either.

01:46:00

I told him, you know, basically what we did was we took off one thing that helped as the newsletter was a consistent format. So it wasn't like ten different formats. It was one format,

I told him, you know, basically what we did was we took off one thing that helped as the newsletter was a consistent format. So it wasn't like ten different formats. It was one format,

01:46:09

and I broke down

and I broke down

01:46:11

why we write it the way we write it line by line. Our opening line at Milk Road was always like,

why we write it the way we write it line by line. Our opening line at Milk Road was always like,

01:46:16

Good morning. This is the milk road.

Good morning. This is the milk road.

01:46:19

The, you know, the and we would say what we do, and then we would say, and if funny, and then we would add a we would tag it with a joke. So we would say, we are the number one source for figuring out what happened in crypto yesterday.

The, you know, the and we would say what we do, and then we would say, and if funny, and then we would add a we would tag it with a joke. So we would say, we are the number one source for figuring out what happened in crypto yesterday.

01:46:31

Think of us like

Think of us like

01:46:33

You think of us like a tosha strudel, a fresh tasty sweet for you and, treat for you in the mornings. And then parenthesis, we tag the joke again, and we would just be like, what that have happened is total struggles anyways, kids these days. They're missing out. Right? And it's like, we would tag the we would always tag the joke, and we'd be like, We are, GM, we're the we're the milk road. We are,

You think of us like a tosha strudel, a fresh tasty sweet for you and, treat for you in the mornings. And then parenthesis, we tag the joke again, and we would just be like, what that have happened is total struggles anyways, kids these days. They're missing out. Right? And it's like, we would tag the we would always tag the joke, and we'd be like, We are, GM, we're the we're the milk road. We are,

01:46:54

we give you exactly everything you need to know about crypto in the morning and nothing nothing that you don't need to know.

we give you exactly everything you need to know about crypto in the morning and nothing nothing that you don't need to know.

01:47:00

And then we would say we would tag it, that'd be like,

And then we would say we would tag it, that'd be like,

01:47:03

I would say something like, we're

I would say something like, we're

01:47:06

reading this newsletter is is is the second best feeling in the world. The first best, of course, is when you're in a car, you roll down the window and you start doing that cool dolphin thing with your hand. Right? Like, some relatable, funny thing that's just like, put you in a good mood. And we were like, can we get can we get you to smile? And can we get you to be like, I like, I love these guys. We give you a reason to open this? That's not based on the Bitcoin price. It was another way of thinking about it. And so we that so I started trading. I was like, the first line, this is what we do. Here's why we're doing it. And here's ten examples of doing it good. And then he was like, cool. Got it. I can I can pattern match to that?

reading this newsletter is is is the second best feeling in the world. The first best, of course, is when you're in a car, you roll down the window and you start doing that cool dolphin thing with your hand. Right? Like, some relatable, funny thing that's just like, put you in a good mood. And we were like, can we get can we get you to smile? And can we get you to be like, I like, I love these guys. We give you a reason to open this? That's not based on the Bitcoin price. It was another way of thinking about it. And so we that so I started trading. I was like, the first line, this is what we do. Here's why we're doing it. And here's ten examples of doing it good. And then he was like, cool. Got it. I can I can pattern match to that?

01:47:40

The other thing that we did was

The other thing that we did was

01:47:42

he was,

he was,

01:47:43

he was doing the school thing where he's like, he thought he had to be a different guy, like, Oh, maybe I need to be a really sophisticated

he was doing the school thing where he's like, he thought he had to be a different guy, like, Oh, maybe I need to be a really sophisticated

01:47:49

do sophisticated analysis. So I need to do kind of, like, people think when they write, they need to do something outside of themselves, you know? The whole point of writing is to take you and just push it out.

do sophisticated analysis. So I need to do kind of, like, people think when they write, they need to do something outside of themselves, you know? The whole point of writing is to take you and just push it out.

01:47:59

And so don't try to create this fake thing that you think other people might want just like you and push it out. And so for example,

And so don't try to create this fake thing that you think other people might want just like you and push it out. And so for example,

01:48:06

he would talk about subjects, and the writing was fine, but the subject was boring. So I was like, dude, why'd you pick this? He's like, I don't know. I felt like know, it was in the news people needed to know about it. I was like, did you care about this? No.

he would talk about subjects, and the writing was fine, but the subject was boring. So I was like, dude, why'd you pick this? He's like, I don't know. I felt like know, it was in the news people needed to know about it. I was like, did you care about this? No.

01:48:16

Not really. And I was like, would you have ever, like, texted me or, like, yeah, a Slack mess with me or send me a voice note being like, Dude, did you hear about this? This thing's awesome or this is crazy. Did you hear about this? This is really interesting. He's like, no. I would never say that. I'm like, cool. Then why are we telling why are we telling two hundred thousand people about this? If you wouldn't tell me. And so what I made him do, I was like, every morning,

Not really. And I was like, would you have ever, like, texted me or, like, yeah, a Slack mess with me or send me a voice note being like, Dude, did you hear about this? This thing's awesome or this is crazy. Did you hear about this? This is really interesting. He's like, no. I would never say that. I'm like, cool. Then why are we telling why are we telling two hundred thousand people about this? If you wouldn't tell me. And so what I made him do, I was like, every morning,

01:48:36

I want you to send a voice note, send a voice memo, and just tell me the news before you write anything.

I want you to send a voice note, send a voice memo, and just tell me the news before you write anything.

01:48:42

Just be like, oh, yeah. Everybody on Twitter's freaking out because they're worried about this,

Just be like, oh, yeah. Everybody on Twitter's freaking out because they're worried about this,

01:48:46

thing that happened. Or,

thing that happened. Or,

01:48:48

the price is up today because of because there's rumors about this right now. And what that means is that if that happened, then this would happen. So you would just say it to me, and there was it was such a good filter because he could stop himself if he was gonna tell me something that was boring.

the price is up today because of because there's rumors about this right now. And what that means is that if that happened, then this would happen. So you would just say it to me, and there was it was such a good filter because he could stop himself if he was gonna tell me something that was boring.

01:49:02

And he would catch himself, like, I would never say this to somebody. It's boring to me, and it'll be boring to you. So it filtered out the subject beautifully. So, like, those are the two big things was

And he would catch himself, like, I would never say this to somebody. It's boring to me, and it'll be boring to you. So it filtered out the subject beautifully. So, like, those are the two big things was

01:49:10

showing him what we do in it, like, giving him a sample and then say, Here's what good looks like. Here's ten more examples of good.

showing him what we do in it, like, giving him a sample and then say, Here's what good looks like. Here's ten more examples of good.

01:49:18

And then secondly, installing that one step of, like, Don't do that imposter thing where you start talking about shit that you're not even that interested in because guess what? Nobody else interested in it. Like, and the filter for that was send me a voice memo. If it's not interesting in the voice memo,

And then secondly, installing that one step of, like, Don't do that imposter thing where you start talking about shit that you're not even that interested in because guess what? Nobody else interested in it. Like, and the filter for that was send me a voice memo. If it's not interesting in the voice memo,

01:49:32

it's definitely not gonna be interesting in low text.

it's definitely not gonna be interesting in low text.

01:49:34

Why do you think that dolphin thing is so funny?

Why do you think that dolphin thing is so funny?

01:49:38

Is hilarious. Relatable. And, like, you know, it's it's not even that funny. It's just, like, funny that we put again, it's unexpected. Like, why are you writing this?

Is hilarious. Relatable. And, like, you know, it's it's not even that funny. It's just, like, funny that we put again, it's unexpected. Like, why are you writing this?

01:49:45

You know, everybody says we're the best. Said we're the second best thing in the world. So immediately,

You know, everybody says we're the best. Said we're the second best thing in the world. So immediately,

01:49:51

like, what's first best first best. And then I can't say a serious thing.

like, what's first best first best. And then I can't say a serious thing.

01:49:55

I have to say an unserious thing. So I'm like, the first best thing is this feeling, because we all know this feeling is great. Like, you know, that feeling. It's an amazing feeling. And so,

I have to say an unserious thing. So I'm like, the first best thing is this feeling, because we all know this feeling is great. Like, you know, that feeling. It's an amazing feeling. And so,

01:50:04

we just knew, like, okay. Things like that are

we just knew, like, okay. Things like that are

01:50:07

surprising, likable, funny. You can do them in one line. So it's not like you have to, like, set up a long story or joke It was very useful. It was very efficient as a, like, mechanism there. Sweet. That was good fun. Thanks, man. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

surprising, likable, funny. You can do them in one line. So it's not like you have to, like, set up a long story or joke It was very useful. It was very efficient as a, like, mechanism there. Sweet. That was good fun. Thanks, man. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

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