00:06

Okay. We were here on the fifth episode of the podcast with Sharma.

Okay. We were here on the fifth episode of the podcast with Sharma.

00:10

Nick and I have been friends for about a year.

Nick and I have been friends for about a year.

00:13

Nick, I'm gonna tell everyone a little bit about your background. You ran acquisition of water.

Nick, I'm gonna tell everyone a little bit about your background. You ran acquisition of water.

00:18

You've been an investor in a bunch of direct to consumer businesses, including Jubi,

You've been an investor in a bunch of direct to consumer businesses, including Jubi,

00:23

including Haus, which is an alcohol company,

including Haus, which is an alcohol company,

00:25

and some other ones that I was looking at on your LinkedIn profile yesterday. Will you tell people a little bit about, like, the companies that you've invested in?

and some other ones that I was looking at on your LinkedIn profile yesterday. Will you tell people a little bit about, like, the companies that you've invested in?

00:32

Yeah.

Yeah.

00:34

Let's see Judy House,

Let's see Judy House,

00:36

Black Wolf Nation,

Black Wolf Nation,

00:39

Brightland.

Brightland.

00:40

They're honestly mostly just,

They're honestly mostly just,

00:43

DDC companies that I'm, like, a fan of first and then,

DDC companies that I'm, like, a fan of first and then,

00:48

fan enough to wanna be involved in a deeper level. And which one, like, are you involved in all of them on a deeper level, or are you involved in all of them in, like,

fan enough to wanna be involved in a deeper level. And which one, like, are you involved in all of them on a deeper level, or are you involved in all of them in, like,

00:56

I would say, like, pretty much

I would say, like, pretty much

00:59

Yeah. I would say I definitely work on stuff, like, every week for each portfolio company.

Yeah. I would say I definitely work on stuff, like, every week for each portfolio company.

01:04

Wow. Like I helped them out in some way every week for sure.

Wow. Like I helped them out in some way every week for sure.

01:08

Okay. Great. Can you give me an example? Like, what what's something that you did for, like, Judy this week?

Okay. Great. Can you give me an example? Like, what what's something that you did for, like, Judy this week?

01:14

For Judy, well, today, actually,

For Judy, well, today, actually,

01:16

pretty happy. I just finished a domain migration.

pretty happy. I just finished a domain migration.

01:19

So I ended up getting,

So I ended up getting,

01:21

Judy dot co as a domain.

Judy dot co as a domain.

01:23

And, I just said it, like, literally ten minutes ago. It was, like, our new primary domain. Oh, that's awesome. So that was exciting. Yeah. How much did you buy judy dot co? Like, you had to buy it off somebody or it was available. Yeah. It it was a five figure domain,

And, I just said it, like, literally ten minutes ago. It was, like, our new primary domain. Oh, that's awesome. So that was exciting. Yeah. How much did you buy judy dot co? Like, you had to buy it off somebody or it was available. Yeah. It it was a five figure domain,

01:36

but I felt like I did the same thing at here. Give me some details. Give me a look. Five five figures is too wide. Like, in ten thousand dollars or ninety nine thousand dollars? Which one is it closer to? It's it's closer to ten.

but I felt like I did the same thing at here. Give me some details. Give me a look. Five five figures is too wide. Like, in ten thousand dollars or ninety nine thousand dollars? Which one is it closer to? It's it's closer to ten.

01:50

There was a lot of nego I'm pretty good at negotiating these domains. So I did the same thing at hint where our first offer for hint dot co was like, fifty. It ended up at six.

There was a lot of nego I'm pretty good at negotiating these domains. So I did the same thing at hint where our first offer for hint dot co was like, fifty. It ended up at six.

02:00

You guys bought hint dot co for six k? Yeah.

You guys bought hint dot co for six k? Yeah.

02:04

Wow. That's great.

Wow. That's great.

02:05

Yeah. So I I'm just all about, like, if especially if it's a four letter

Yeah. So I I'm just all about, like, if especially if it's a four letter

02:09

brand, like, at hint, the first thing I did was get hint dot co at hint on Instagram, hint on Snapchat, hint on Twitter, hint on Facebook, and it was just great for brand. And,

brand, like, at hint, the first thing I did was get hint dot co at hint on Instagram, hint on Snapchat, hint on Twitter, hint on Facebook, and it was just great for brand. And,

02:19

I mean, you did the same thing with Native, And then with Judy, I'm trying to do it as much as I can. You know, Judy's a little harder because it's a person's name.

I mean, you did the same thing with Native, And then with Judy, I'm trying to do it as much as I can. You know, Judy's a little harder because it's a person's name.

02:27

Yeah. The the hard part is that you have to, like, sometimes steal the of, like, Instagram handle from a squatter.

Yeah. The the hard part is that you have to, like, sometimes steal the of, like, Instagram handle from a squatter.

02:33

I remember, like and that's not, like, fun. I didn't even know

I remember, like and that's not, like, fun. I didn't even know

02:38

that it was happening. I just reached out to our Facebook folks. And I was like, hey, could we get the native, like, you know, Instagram handle? And they're like, yeah. Here you go. And I'm like, okay, great. That was a lot of me than I expected.

that it was happening. I just reached out to our Facebook folks. And I was like, hey, could we get the native, like, you know, Instagram handle? And they're like, yeah. Here you go. And I'm like, okay, great. That was a lot of me than I expected.

02:48

We actually never tried. Do you think domain names are important? Like, I think Instagram handles really important. I think Twitter handles. Yeah. Never did that well with Twitter. But do you think domain name is? Cause, like, so much of the traffic that is driving to your site now is, like,

We actually never tried. Do you think domain names are important? Like, I think Instagram handles really important. I think Twitter handles. Yeah. Never did that well with Twitter. But do you think domain name is? Cause, like, so much of the traffic that is driving to your site now is, like,

03:01

being searched for on Google or being found on social and not necessarily people putting in Google dot com.

being searched for on Google or being found on social and not necessarily people putting in Google dot com.

03:07

Yeah. I don't think it's, like, as important, but from a sorry. Is that really noisy in the background?

Yeah. I don't think it's, like, as important, but from a sorry. Is that really noisy in the background?

03:14

No. Go for it. Okay.

No. Go for it. Okay.

03:17

So I don't I

So I don't I

03:19

yeah. I think it's it's definitely important to some extent. Like,

yeah. I think it's it's definitely important to some extent. Like,

03:23

you want a good domain. I think where some brands get carried away is when they try and put a verb in front of their brand and then it gets too long.

you want a good domain. I think where some brands get carried away is when they try and put a verb in front of their brand and then it gets too long.

03:33

Like,

Like,

03:34

like hint is drink hint dot com. Yeah. Yeah.

like hint is drink hint dot com. Yeah. Yeah.

03:37

It's usually like food and bev or like fitness related things.

It's usually like food and bev or like fitness related things.

03:41

But,

But,

03:42

yeah. I mean, I I like things that are just nice, short, and clean. Yeah. And, so I was really proud to get judy dot co. But then, like, other things, like, for Brightland, I'm working on a landing page.

yeah. I mean, I I like things that are just nice, short, and clean. Yeah. And, so I was really proud to get judy dot co. But then, like, other things, like, for Brightland, I'm working on a landing page.

03:55

And for house, like, you know, things like connecting them with postscript and Alec,

And for house, like, you know, things like connecting them with postscript and Alec,

03:59

getting them set up there.

getting them set up there.

04:02

But yeah, it's like it's usually anywhere. I I try to be pro about, like, oh, if I see them trying to do something or do something, then I just try to think, like, what's something easy I can do to help them out?

But yeah, it's like it's usually anywhere. I I try to be pro about, like, oh, if I see them trying to do something or do something, then I just try to think, like, what's something easy I can do to help them out?

04:14

Yeah, it makes a ton of sense.

Yeah, it makes a ton of sense.

04:16

Yeah. You know, like, when when it comes to, like, brand names, when we were trying to, like, you know, before native launched, you know, I was, like, Okay. I wanna start this deodorant business. What's a good brand name for it? And sort of, went through a bunch of ideas. And I was like, okay, I want something like that.

Yeah. You know, like, when when it comes to, like, brand names, when we were trying to, like, you know, before native launched, you know, I was, like, Okay. I wanna start this deodorant business. What's a good brand name for it? And sort of, went through a bunch of ideas. And I was like, okay, I want something like that.

04:31

Not has a nod towards natural, but it doesn't say, like, it isn't, like, called natural, and it's been called something like, deodorant club or deodorant company. It's like, I I wanna be able to sell other products.

Not has a nod towards natural, but it doesn't say, like, it isn't, like, called natural, and it's been called something like, deodorant club or deodorant company. It's like, I I wanna be able to sell other products.

04:42

And, when we came up with the term native, I remember a bunch of people were like, this is a bad name. Doesn't mean anything. And, a lot of Native Americans are gonna get upset.

And, when we came up with the term native, I remember a bunch of people were like, this is a bad name. Doesn't mean anything. And, a lot of Native Americans are gonna get upset.

04:50

Yeah. Native Americans getting upset happened.

Yeah. Native Americans getting upset happened.

04:53

Kind of people, got upset about it. Is that the first thing? But we never tried to buy, like, native dot com.

Kind of people, got upset about it. Is that the first thing? But we never tried to buy, like, native dot com.

04:59

Yeah. But we did have a huge issue with, trademark. I think I've mentioned this to you for where, like, we tried to we tried to use the native trademark and somebody else owned it and it became critical to, like, sort of,

Yeah. But we did have a huge issue with, trademark. I think I've mentioned this to you for where, like, we tried to we tried to use the native trademark and somebody else owned it and it became critical to, like, sort of,

05:10

we had to acquire that trademark, and we bought the trademark,

we had to acquire that trademark, and we bought the trademark,

05:13

like, five days before we ended up selling the business to Procter and Gamble. Like, that was the one That's insane.

like, five days before we ended up selling the business to Procter and Gamble. Like, that was the one That's insane.

05:19

Wow.

Wow.

05:20

Wow.

Wow.

05:21

Wow. I mean, we're chatting with other people. Other people would be like, we're not gonna we're not gonna give you an offer for your business until you own your trademark. Yeah. And so I really think one of, like, PNGs advantages was they were like, look, we're ready to move forward in the acquisition process,

Wow. I mean, we're chatting with other people. Other people would be like, we're not gonna we're not gonna give you an offer for your business until you own your trademark. Yeah. And so I really think one of, like, PNGs advantages was they were like, look, we're ready to move forward in the acquisition process,

05:34

with the contingency that you buy the mark before we close. Other people were not They charged you like an arm and a leg for that? Yeah. They did. It was,

with the contingency that you buy the mark before we close. Other people were not They charged you like an arm and a leg for that? Yeah. They did. It was,

05:43

high six figure price. Well, so what's crazy is, like, you know, comparing that to a domain, like, like,

high six figure price. Well, so what's crazy is, like, you know, comparing that to a domain, like, like,

05:50

you had to get that because that's the only way that your deal would have gone through. Whereas a domain, you don't necessarily need it. But I rem just as you were saying that,

you had to get that because that's the only way that your deal would have gone through. Whereas a domain, you don't necessarily need it. But I rem just as you were saying that,

05:59

this thing popped in my head that soylent was I think it was like drink soylent.

this thing popped in my head that soylent was I think it was like drink soylent.

06:04

And they bought soylent dot com office dude who used it to, like, he was into some weird shit and he would promote some stuff on that site. That they bought the domain off of them for, like, a hundred k.

And they bought soylent dot com office dude who used it to, like, he was into some weird shit and he would promote some stuff on that site. That they bought the domain off of them for, like, a hundred k.

06:16

Wow.

Wow.

06:18

I think they were, like, raised eighty million dollar. I think if you've raised eighty nine dollars, you don't know what a hundred thousand dollars is anymore?

I think they were, like, raised eighty million dollar. I think if you've raised eighty nine dollars, you don't know what a hundred thousand dollars is anymore?

06:26

Yeah. Yeah. That is crazy. We never, like, we never tried to buy dot com. And our domain name was,

Yeah. Yeah. That is crazy. We never, like, we never tried to buy dot com. And our domain name was,

06:31

native c o s dot com. And people would be like, what is the c o s? Is it cosmetics? Is it companies? What is it? And I was like, I have no idea. It was the only thing available.

native c o s dot com. And people would be like, what is the c o s? Is it cosmetics? Is it companies? What is it? And I was like, I have no idea. It was the only thing available.

06:40

And so, like Well, for the longest time on Twitter, I never

And so, like Well, for the longest time on Twitter, I never

06:46

found Native because it's a native underscore c o s.

found Native because it's a native underscore c o s.

06:50

It's so bad. Yeah. We tried to get Twitter to do what we had Instagram do. Or if we could do that's the native. Well, I told you the guy who had the Instagram also has the Twitter. He's done with some Okay. Yeah. But I'm glad that he, like, got to keep one of them then. Yeah.

It's so bad. Yeah. We tried to get Twitter to do what we had Instagram do. Or if we could do that's the native. Well, I told you the guy who had the Instagram also has the Twitter. He's done with some Okay. Yeah. But I'm glad that he, like, got to keep one of them then. Yeah.

07:05

Alright. We'd love to talk about, like, what's going on in, like, the, like, not just the businesses that you're invested in. I know you've said, like, Judy is sort of crushing a great time to launch,

Alright. We'd love to talk about, like, what's going on in, like, the, like, not just the businesses that you're invested in. I know you've said, like, Judy is sort of crushing a great time to launch,

07:14

beautiful branding.

beautiful branding.

07:16

Actually, can we talk a little bit more about Judy? Like,

Actually, can we talk a little bit more about Judy? Like,

07:19

Judy sells, like, a disaster kit for your

Judy sells, like, a disaster kit for your

07:23

which is, like, I mean, it's good timing because, you know, people are now staying at home and realize that disasters may happen.

which is, like, I mean, it's good timing because, you know, people are now staying at home and realize that disasters may happen.

07:30

Who are, like, other people that are involved in the Judy business? Cause you've told me about this. I, I sort of understand it, but I don't really understand all of the relationships.

Who are, like, other people that are involved in the Judy business? Cause you've told me about this. I, I sort of understand it, but I don't really understand all of the relationships.

07:38

Yeah. So Judy is interesting because

Yeah. So Judy is interesting because

07:41

of two things. One, it's like a really sound business.

of two things. One, it's like a really sound business.

07:45

The,

The,

07:47

the product is is basically a a very functional product, and it's something that, like, provides immediate value to the consumer. So it's a very functional and necessary product, which we love as,

the product is is basically a a very functional product, and it's something that, like, provides immediate value to the consumer. So it's a very functional and necessary product, which we love as,

07:58

immigrants.

immigrants.

07:59

Yeah. Yeah. No. It makes a ton of sense. Like, I want a disaster kit for my parents, probably one for myself as well. So, look, you don't need to sell me on the business any longer? I am a hundred percent. So the other reason that's really interesting is because of the team that's involved. So,

Yeah. Yeah. No. It makes a ton of sense. Like, I want a disaster kit for my parents, probably one for myself as well. So, look, you don't need to sell me on the business any longer? I am a hundred percent. So the other reason that's really interesting is because of the team that's involved. So,

08:15

you know, the core team was probably five people.

you know, the core team was probably five people.

08:18

It was myself. It was,

It was myself. It was,

08:20

our ops person who's just a g with ops,

our ops person who's just a g with ops,

08:24

ahead of customer service,

ahead of customer service,

08:26

and then the two founders,

and then the two founders,

08:28

Josh

Josh

08:29

Budashkin, who's a former founder of Raven, and then Simon Huck, who,

Budashkin, who's a former founder of Raven, and then Simon Huck, who,

08:35

is the founder of command PR, for a command entertainment group, but he also happens to be a celebrity of his own,

is the founder of command PR, for a command entertainment group, but he also happens to be a celebrity of his own,

08:43

being so closely friends with, Kim Kardashian,

being so closely friends with, Kim Kardashian,

08:46

And so

And so

08:47

and he also knows, like, the a list world, like, the back of his hand. So Yeah. It makes it it made it really interesting to launch because

and he also knows, like, the a list world, like, the back of his hand. So Yeah. It makes it it made it really interesting to launch because

08:55

on launch day. I was learning all about a list celebrities through Judy.

on launch day. I was learning all about a list celebrities through Judy.

08:59

Yeah. You know, there was, like, every every celebrity is posted to Judy from

Yeah. You know, there was, like, every every celebrity is posted to Judy from

09:03

Christy tee again to Martha Stewart to Kim Kardashian to,

Christy tee again to Martha Stewart to Kim Kardashian to,

09:08

literally everybody. And is that just because, like,

literally everybody. And is that just because, like,

09:11

is that because Steve Huck, I guess, sort of got all these people to post about it? How did that sort of happen?

is that because Steve Huck, I guess, sort of got all these people to post about it? How did that sort of happen?

09:16

Yeah. Honestly, Simon, I think, just has, like, he's a very loved guy the industry and in his,

Yeah. Honestly, Simon, I think, just has, like, he's a very loved guy the industry and in his,

09:23

in his network. And I think when people saw that he was launching something that,

in his network. And I think when people saw that he was launching something that,

09:28

you know, he developed this brand because he saw that so many of his own family members were affected by disasters.

you know, he developed this brand because he saw that so many of his own family members were affected by disasters.

09:35

Yeah. And so I think when they saw that he was basically launching this brand,

Yeah. And so I think when they saw that he was basically launching this brand,

09:40

and it was a real thing. They all just wanted to support. Like, none of them it's weird because none of the the influencer posts have ever felt like ads None of them are like, go buy this now. It's like, it's all congratulating Simon or,

and it was a real thing. They all just wanted to support. Like, none of them it's weird because none of the the influencer posts have ever felt like ads None of them are like, go buy this now. It's like, it's all congratulating Simon or,

09:53

just talking about how handy their Judy kids are. Yeah. Well, that's great. Like, I'm trying to get that organic.

just talking about how handy their Judy kids are. Yeah. Well, that's great. Like, I'm trying to get that organic.

09:59

I'm trying to get that organic, like, influence for reach is is really, really difficult to get down right. Yeah.

I'm trying to get that organic, like, influence for reach is is really, really difficult to get down right. Yeah.

10:06

Yeah. They did a really good job. And like Josh,

Yeah. They did a really good job. And like Josh,

10:10

it who's the other founder is the president of Ramoa. So he He's just a beast of an operator.

it who's the other founder is the president of Ramoa. So he He's just a beast of an operator.

10:18

And so making, like, especially on on things like logistics and supply chain,

And so making, like, especially on on things like logistics and supply chain,

10:23

sourcing,

sourcing,

10:24

marketing, like, he's

marketing, like, he's

10:26

he's a genius. Is he related to, like, the founder of LVVMH?

he's a genius. Is he related to, like, the founder of LVVMH?

10:30

I thought the president of Ramoa was, like, the guy's son or something, like Bernard.

I thought the president of Ramoa was, like, the guy's son or something, like Bernard.

10:37

I don't think he's related to them. I have heard that name come up, but I,

I don't think he's related to them. I have heard that name come up, but I,

10:42

maybe maybe Josh replaced them, or he, like, took a different role in the company. Yeah. Sure. Okay. Let let's move on to, like, what's going on the direct to consumer industry now because I feel like,

maybe maybe Josh replaced them, or he, like, took a different role in the company. Yeah. Sure. Okay. Let let's move on to, like, what's going on the direct to consumer industry now because I feel like,

10:53

you know, you're you're in touch with a ton of different brands. And there were certainly like a perfect storm brewing right now.

you know, you're you're in touch with a ton of different brands. And there were certainly like a perfect storm brewing right now.

10:59

I think there was all of a sudden, people were worried about

I think there was all of a sudden, people were worried about

11:02

profitability

profitability

11:03

and not just like top line growth. And so, like, when Brandless sort of, shut down its operations,

and not just like top line growth. And so, like, when Brandless sort of, shut down its operations,

11:10

when outdoor voices had whatever,

when outdoor voices had whatever,

11:12

issues that it recently had,

issues that it recently had,

11:14

people realized the bottom line really mattered.

people realized the bottom line really mattered.

11:17

Mhmm. And then all of a sudden, like, you know, they stock market is collapsing. And so investors are gonna be a lot more cautious when it comes to writing checks.

Mhmm. And then all of a sudden, like, you know, they stock market is collapsing. And so investors are gonna be a lot more cautious when it comes to writing checks.

11:24

And then finally, no one's going outside because, you know, COVID has caused in the stock market to collapse. And,

And then finally, no one's going outside because, you know, COVID has caused in the stock market to collapse. And,

11:31

you know, all of a sudden, the, pair of Nike shoes that you ordinarily wear when you were running outside don't really seem necessary. Any longer. Right.

you know, all of a sudden, the, pair of Nike shoes that you ordinarily wear when you were running outside don't really seem necessary. Any longer. Right.

11:39

What, like, which,

What, like, which,

11:41

you know, do you think that the,

you know, do you think that the,

11:43

bottom line mattering or COVID is sort of having a larger impact, or is it just impossible to tell right now?

bottom line mattering or COVID is sort of having a larger impact, or is it just impossible to tell right now?

11:50

It is kind of impossible to tell because

It is kind of impossible to tell because

11:53

you know, we're kind of in this, like, sheltered or hibernation stage right now, where we haven't, like, fully accepted that, okay, this is the reality and figured out ments around that. We're all kind of in this, like,

you know, we're kind of in this, like, sheltered or hibernation stage right now, where we haven't, like, fully accepted that, okay, this is the reality and figured out ments around that. We're all kind of in this, like,

12:06

like, I'm sure you said that New York Times article around how people are just, like, turning to junk food,

like, I'm sure you said that New York Times article around how people are just, like, turning to junk food,

12:12

I know just from portfolio companies and chatting around that, like, cookware is doing really well.

I know just from portfolio companies and chatting around that, like, cookware is doing really well.

12:17

Beauty's type of stuff isn't doing as well. Like, anything really related to going but anything that promotes happiness or calmness or wellness while you're staying in has just been crushing. Yeah. Everything from, like, fitness,

Beauty's type of stuff isn't doing as well. Like, anything really related to going but anything that promotes happiness or calmness or wellness while you're staying in has just been crushing. Yeah. Everything from, like, fitness,

12:30

fitness gear and jump ropes and and bands all the way to,

fitness gear and jump ropes and and bands all the way to,

12:35

like, adapt the gin drinks or crushing,

like, adapt the gin drinks or crushing,

12:39

you know, cookware I said is doing well. It's it's kinda weird though, but it will be interesting to see,

you know, cookware I said is doing well. It's it's kinda weird though, but it will be interesting to see,

12:45

like, when

like, when

12:47

when all this stuff does settle down, what how will people adjust and what will people start to realize

when all this stuff does settle down, what how will people adjust and what will people start to realize

12:53

as their priorities?

as their priorities?

12:54

You know, I don't think people are going to be

You know, I don't think people are going to be

12:57

rushing to spend a hundred dollars to get,

rushing to spend a hundred dollars to get,

13:01

you know, face wash customized to their zip code anymore. Yeah.

you know, face wash customized to their zip code anymore. Yeah.

13:06

Like, it's just things things the perspective of money will definitely change.

Like, it's just things things the perspective of money will definitely change.

13:11

Yeah. It's crazy how fast that happens. Know, it took like ten years for people to feel really bullish in their wallets to feel fat and them to feel like, hey, I wanna spend money, making myself happy to all of a sudden, like, this seems like a crazy luxury to have a customized face wash.

Yeah. It's crazy how fast that happens. Know, it took like ten years for people to feel really bullish in their wallets to feel fat and them to feel like, hey, I wanna spend money, making myself happy to all of a sudden, like, this seems like a crazy luxury to have a customized face wash.

13:27

Yeah. Right? I mean, if you think about, like, that's literally a a way. Right? It's like you used to have, like, a twenty five dollar target

Yeah. Right? I mean, if you think about, like, that's literally a a way. Right? It's like you used to have, like, a twenty five dollar target

13:36

two case or you have, like, a a five thousand dollar, you know, Saks fifth Avenue, Saks fifth, Yeah. And then away kinda came in and found that, like,

two case or you have, like, a a five thousand dollar, you know, Saks fifth Avenue, Saks fifth, Yeah. And then away kinda came in and found that, like,

13:45

high earners, but not rich kind of the Henry playground.

high earners, but not rich kind of the Henry playground.

13:49

The Henry playground. Yeah. And then,

The Henry playground. Yeah. And then,

13:52

But, I mean, they just they decide to let go of, like, sixty percent of their stuff.

But, I mean, they just they decide to let go of, like, sixty percent of their stuff.

13:56

The worst part is all the people who get affected

The worst part is all the people who get affected

13:59

who, you know, just don't know how they're gonna pay rent in two months.

who, you know, just don't know how they're gonna pay rent in two months.

14:03

Yeah. I guess, look, what's a good step that I mean, COVID is obviously a complete catastrophe fee for the country and, like,

Yeah. I guess, look, what's a good step that I mean, COVID is obviously a complete catastrophe fee for the country and, like,

14:11

just heartbreaking,

just heartbreaking,

14:13

like, you know,

like, you know,

14:14

I think about it. Like, I I think a couple days ago, I saw that there were nearly two two thousand deaths in the United States,

I think about it. Like, I I think a couple days ago, I saw that there were nearly two two thousand deaths in the United States,

14:20

on a single day. And I was like, this is two thirds of a nine eleven on a single day, and it's gonna happen again tomorrow.

on a single day. And I was like, this is two thirds of a nine eleven on a single day, and it's gonna happen again tomorrow.

14:26

It's really heartbreaking.

It's really heartbreaking.

14:28

You know, you were talking about some businesses that sort of makes or that are doing well, as like, you know, just by virtue of the fact that people have to stay in, cookware companies, fitness bands, and you're right. Like, I've tried to order fitness products, and the weight is, like, a month for now.

You know, you were talking about some businesses that sort of makes or that are doing well, as like, you know, just by virtue of the fact that people have to stay in, cookware companies, fitness bands, and you're right. Like, I've tried to order fitness products, and the weight is, like, a month for now.

14:41

I went in three weeks to get a jump rope. Yeah. It's crazy. Do you think that that acceleration,

I went in three weeks to get a jump rope. Yeah. It's crazy. Do you think that that acceleration,

14:47

is permanent? So,

is permanent? So,

14:49

For instance, if you if you haven't ordered from Instacart before and now you do, do you get off of Instacart?

For instance, if you if you haven't ordered from Instacart before and now you do, do you get off of Instacart?

14:55

Are people gonna be like, yeah, I want a tonal or a mirror I wanna keep this. Like, you know, totals and mirrors are thousands of dollars, and then they have fifty dollar a month like subscription fees or something to that effect. They're incredibly expensive.

Are people gonna be like, yeah, I want a tonal or a mirror I wanna keep this. Like, you know, totals and mirrors are thousands of dollars, and then they have fifty dollar a month like subscription fees or something to that effect. They're incredibly expensive.

15:08

But is this now the new reality? Is Equinox sort of, like,

But is this now the new reality? Is Equinox sort of, like,

15:12

in trouble? Or six months from now are these direct to consumer businesses back to where they were and Equinox is back to what it was?

in trouble? Or six months from now are these direct to consumer businesses back to where they were and Equinox is back to what it was?

15:22

Well, I think there's two parts to that. One is

Well, I think there's two parts to that. One is

15:25

do do people, like, will people trust going out and going into a public gym again? I think that Yeah. Like that to me is mind boggling.

do do people, like, will people trust going out and going into a public gym again? I think that Yeah. Like that to me is mind boggling.

15:34

But the second part is, like,

But the second part is, like,

15:37

you know, how much how much do they value,

you know, how much how much do they value,

15:40

getting that, like, Peloton bike or soulcycle bike for their house?

getting that, like, Peloton bike or soulcycle bike for their house?

15:44

And whether or not they will. I think they I mean, they've definitely seen,

And whether or not they will. I think they I mean, they've definitely seen,

15:48

sales just jump.

sales just jump.

15:50

And for them, their whole game is, you know, if they get a product in your house, then they kinda get heavy with the subscription for quite some time. Yeah.

And for them, their whole game is, you know, if they get a product in your house, then they kinda get heavy with the subscription for quite some time. Yeah.

15:59

And what happens to the other com so, like,

And what happens to the other com so, like,

16:02

a way travel had to lay off a bunch of their staff everlane has as well.

a way travel had to lay off a bunch of their staff everlane has as well.

16:07

You know, a lot of companies have just as a result of the fact that sales were down and you can't Yeah. You know, it's it's a terrible thing to have to do. But at the same time,

You know, a lot of companies have just as a result of the fact that sales were down and you can't Yeah. You know, it's it's a terrible thing to have to do. But at the same time,

16:16

if the entire business goes bankrupt, there's nobody that can work there. Right? And so it's a decision, but probably the right decision.

if the entire business goes bankrupt, there's nobody that can work there. Right? And so it's a decision, but probably the right decision.

16:23

Sure. What happens to these businesses in the future? Do they have down rounds? Do they go out of business ultimately? Do they, like, You know, what happens to, away, I guess, in six months or a year? It was, it was probably like the darling of the DTC community Right? Like, a huge evaluation to female entrepreneurs

Sure. What happens to these businesses in the future? Do they have down rounds? Do they go out of business ultimately? Do they, like, You know, what happens to, away, I guess, in six months or a year? It was, it was probably like the darling of the DTC community Right? Like, a huge evaluation to female entrepreneurs

16:41

who were I I thought doing a fantastic job, like, really admired both of them.

who were I I thought doing a fantastic job, like, really admired both of them.

16:45

And I know, like, you know, I'd love to talk a little bit more about the the press related to Steph Cory and stuff later on. But,

And I know, like, you know, I'd love to talk a little bit more about the the press related to Steph Cory and stuff later on. But,

16:52

you know, what, like, what happens to this, a company

you know, what, like, what happens to this, a company

16:55

that was doing everything right for so long? You know, investing in a brand, you go to the airport,

that was doing everything right for so long? You know, investing in a brand, you go to the airport,

17:01

and a ton of people are carrying their away bags. What happens to that brand a year from now? Yeah.

and a ton of people are carrying their away bags. What happens to that brand a year from now? Yeah.

17:08

It's tough to say. I Yeah. It's so scary. Two immediate things that come to mind as one is,

It's tough to say. I Yeah. It's so scary. Two immediate things that come to mind as one is,

17:16

private equity.

private equity.

17:17

And then the other is it just gets acquired by,

And then the other is it just gets acquired by,

17:20

like, you know, one of the big, bigger

like, you know, one of the big, bigger

17:23

luggage companies, and

luggage companies, and

17:25

and they either, like, act will hire it and roll in capabilities

and they either, like, act will hire it and roll in capabilities

17:29

or they basically just keep the brand going.

or they basically just keep the brand going.

17:32

But support the the P and L much better. Yeah.

But support the the P and L much better. Yeah.

17:37

It's it's certainly tough to say. I imagine there's gonna be, like, down rounds for a bunch of these businesses

It's it's certainly tough to say. I imagine there's gonna be, like, down rounds for a bunch of these businesses

17:42

And, like,

And, like,

17:44

you know, well, like, aside from the founders who I, you know, have a lot of empathy for because they built an amazing business and, like, something terrible happened

you know, well, like, aside from the founders who I, you know, have a lot of empathy for because they built an amazing business and, like, something terrible happened

17:53

that was completely outside their control and hurt their business. Also, a lot of empathy for those employees that work there and, you know, had bought into that stock or exercise their, opt

that was completely outside their control and hurt their business. Also, a lot of empathy for those employees that work there and, you know, had bought into that stock or exercise their, opt

18:03

and now all of a sudden they're in a lot of trouble. And it's actually a way, right? It's an Airbnb and a ton of other companies. It's sort of where headed in the right tr trajectory, and then all of a sudden are no longer able to do that. Yeah.

and now all of a sudden they're in a lot of trouble. And it's actually a way, right? It's an Airbnb and a ton of other companies. It's sort of where headed in the right tr trajectory, and then all of a sudden are no longer able to do that. Yeah.

18:16

Would love to touch base a little bit about

Would love to touch base a little bit about

18:20

Well, actually, before we get there, like, do you think that, like, do you think there's opportunities to buy distressed direct to consumer businesses

Well, actually, before we get there, like, do you think that, like, do you think there's opportunities to buy distressed direct to consumer businesses

18:28

like, away travels, obviously, gonna be super expensive with business.

like, away travels, obviously, gonna be super expensive with business.

18:32

But, like, what like, how do people

But, like, what like, how do people

18:34

sell buy and sell these distressed businesses?

sell buy and sell these distressed businesses?

18:38

To be honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure.

To be honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure.

18:41

I've definitely been doing a little more research just because I've gotten curious recently about it. Yeah. But

I've definitely been doing a little more research just because I've gotten curious recently about it. Yeah. But

18:48

yeah. But,

yeah. But,

18:49

and I've been talking to, like, like, my for example,

and I've been talking to, like, like, my for example,

18:53

who's our friend at Greylock. But,

who's our friend at Greylock. But,

18:56

yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to learn about it as well. It's it's like a completely new world for me. I never thought

yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to learn about it as well. It's it's like a completely new world for me. I never thought

19:02

that

that

19:03

I,

I,

19:04

you know, that all this would happen. And so I've never had to learn it before. Yeah.

you know, that all this would happen. And so I've never had to learn it before. Yeah.

19:10

Okay. Let's let's talk a little bit about, like,

Okay. Let's let's talk a little bit about, like,

19:14

you know,

you know,

19:15

not just COVID, but, like, let let's talk a little bit about, like, what happened in outdoor voices and the press that was related to,

not just COVID, but, like, let let's talk a little bit about, like, what happened in outdoor voices and the press that was related to,

19:22

to away travel.

to away travel.

19:23

Mhmm. You know, like, I I've seen a lot of, like, articles sort of saying, are there hit jobs going on on female, against female entrepreneurs.

Mhmm. You know, like, I I've seen a lot of, like, articles sort of saying, are there hit jobs going on on female, against female entrepreneurs.

19:32

Yeah. I I have no idea what the answer is to that. Like, at Native, we barely got any press when we were independent. I've never been a woman I have no idea as to whether people are doing that. Certainly seems like something is happening. Like, there are a lot of terrible

Yeah. I I have no idea what the answer is to that. Like, at Native, we barely got any press when we were independent. I've never been a woman I have no idea as to whether people are doing that. Certainly seems like something is happening. Like, there are a lot of terrible

19:44

mail run businesses that don't seem to be getting as much. Yeah. Totally.

mail run businesses that don't seem to be getting as much. Yeah. Totally.

19:48

I'm not sure why that's the case. But, you know, I I'd love to, like, you know, I I think outdoor voices in step quarter are very different businesses. Like, the await travel,

I'm not sure why that's the case. But, you know, I I'd love to, like, you know, I I think outdoor voices in step quarter are very different businesses. Like, the await travel,

19:58

you know, certainly there were things that, like, Steph said that weren't great. But I think if you look at anyone's like, if you look at the slack history I had at Native, you know, people would put me in prison.

you know, certainly there were things that, like, Steph said that weren't great. But I think if you look at anyone's like, if you look at the slack history I had at Native, you know, people would put me in prison.

20:08

I I was, like, saying terrible thing. Like, if people fucked up, I was like, how could you possibly fuck up like this? You motherfucker.

I I was, like, saying terrible thing. Like, if people fucked up, I was like, how could you possibly fuck up like this? You motherfucker.

20:16

You know, like,

You know, like,

20:17

Look, that's you know, it's a very intense process. And, like, your livelihood and,

Look, that's you know, it's a very intense process. And, like, your livelihood and,

20:22

like, you know, all of your energy is being

like, you know, all of your energy is being

20:26

you know, put on something so tough. Yeah. Yeah.

you know, put on something so tough. Yeah. Yeah.

20:29

Look, did you, like, what did you think of the away travel one? I I thought it was really unfair as, like, she's she called like, some third party logistics company brain dead, and I was like, they probably are brain That happens all the time.

Look, did you, like, what did you think of the away travel one? I I thought it was really unfair as, like, she's she called like, some third party logistics company brain dead, and I was like, they probably are brain That happens all the time.

20:43

That's the next term I could think of a third for a third party logistics company. A hundred percent.

That's the next term I could think of a third for a third party logistics company. A hundred percent.

20:47

I mean, I have empathy on both sides. I think

I mean, I have empathy on both sides. I think

20:50

as an employee,

as an employee,

20:52

you know,

you know,

20:53

if

if

20:54

if you're not

if you're not

20:56

used to that kind of environment of, like, the hyper growth startup

used to that kind of environment of, like, the hyper growth startup

21:00

or,

or,

21:02

you know, like that, like, I feel like a lot of a lot of the really successful

you know, like that, like, I feel like a lot of a lot of the really successful

21:06

brands or or even companies that sell products

brands or or even companies that sell products

21:10

like, they have a very intense

like, they have a very intense

21:12

marketing or or customer success organization,

marketing or or customer success organization,

21:16

and it's because

and it's because

21:17

and and like that's why they're so good is because they're so critical about their marketing, their sales, and their onboarding.

and and like that's why they're so good is because they're so critical about their marketing, their sales, and their onboarding.

21:24

And,

And,

21:25

So I think some people

So I think some people

21:28

are definitely, like, not made for that. I also think,

are definitely, like, not made for that. I also think,

21:31

you know, you probably don't wanna be yelling at employees on public channels or private channels. But again, I mean, that's up to you as like a founder.

you know, you probably don't wanna be yelling at employees on public channels or private channels. But again, I mean, that's up to you as like a founder.

21:39

If you do that, like, that's up to you. I I've definitely done it before. So

If you do that, like, that's up to you. I I've definitely done it before. So

21:44

And, you know, like you said, if you're if you're a founder and and,

And, you know, like you said, if you're if you're a founder and and,

21:49

you know, like, I always try and have empathy for the other person. So if, like, if I was your employee and you were like, how the fuck could you fuck this up? I'm not gonna get mad thinking, oh, why is this mad at me? I'm thinking, He's right. He has to deal with, like, you know, this company that's trying to acquire him, and he's probably dealing with fifteen other things. Me not doing my job, put something else on his plate. So, like, that's how I would view it. And that's how I have viewed it when I was at, the last couple of companies I was at, So all that said, I mean, those messages were like nothing that I've never gotten before.

you know, like, I always try and have empathy for the other person. So if, like, if I was your employee and you were like, how the fuck could you fuck this up? I'm not gonna get mad thinking, oh, why is this mad at me? I'm thinking, He's right. He has to deal with, like, you know, this company that's trying to acquire him, and he's probably dealing with fifteen other things. Me not doing my job, put something else on his plate. So, like, that's how I would view it. And that's how I have viewed it when I was at, the last couple of companies I was at, So all that said, I mean, those messages were like nothing that I've never gotten before.

22:22

There were nothing I've never thought of before. In fact, they they were, like, same.

There were nothing I've never thought of before. In fact, they they were, like, same.

22:27

Yeah.

Yeah.

22:29

I was, like, Joe Exotic when I was running native, and, like, everyone else was terrible, like, Carol Baskin.

I was, like, Joe Exotic when I was running native, and, like, everyone else was terrible, like, Carol Baskin.

22:35

Yeah. I think, like, you know, if you're gonna do it, you own it,

Yeah. I think, like, you know, if you're gonna do it, you own it,

22:39

and,

and,

22:40

you know, you also obviously make sure that your employees are not, you know, pissed off that they're working for you. Like Sure. You know, there's good times and bad times, and I think that's natural. But Yeah. I mean, I think the thing on the press too is, like, you know,

you know, you also obviously make sure that your employees are not, you know, pissed off that they're working for you. Like Sure. You know, there's good times and bad times, and I think that's natural. But Yeah. I mean, I think the thing on the press too is, like, you know,

22:55

female founded companies

female founded companies

22:57

are

are

22:58

just numbers wise, you know, could be considered anomalies.

just numbers wise, you know, could be considered anomalies.

23:02

And so I think because of that, the ones that

And so I think because of that, the ones that

23:06

that, you know, like, it started way earlier when it was the ones that go through the red and the gin lanes and they come out, you know, there's, like, a press tour. It's, like, it's it's a very normal thing where, like, you know, brands' launch and there's a whole press tour between, you know, everybody's goals to get into the New York Times with a quote so they can throw that on their site.

that, you know, like, it started way earlier when it was the ones that go through the red and the gin lanes and they come out, you know, there's, like, a press tour. It's, like, it's it's a very normal thing where, like, you know, brands' launch and there's a whole press tour between, you know, everybody's goals to get into the New York Times with a quote so they can throw that on their site.

23:28

That said, I think the press,

That said, I think the press,

23:30

you know, good or bad will follow you throughout because people are just intrigued by the story and the hook is so much different than what people are normally used to, I guess.

you know, good or bad will follow you throughout because people are just intrigued by the story and the hook is so much different than what people are normally used to, I guess.

23:39

That that would be my, like, really zoomed out,

That that would be my, like, really zoomed out,

23:44

non politically correct just like off the cuff thinking.

non politically correct just like off the cuff thinking.

23:48

Yeah.

Yeah.

23:49

I guess two things about that. What is, the other thing I thought about from, like, the way conversations that got leaked was, you know, they have a real commitment to customer service that's,

I guess two things about that. What is, the other thing I thought about from, like, the way conversations that got leaked was, you know, they have a real commitment to customer service that's,

23:59

really incredible.

really incredible.

24:00

You know, when they were late sending packages, that's, like, okay, how about we send this person ten suitcases or a hundred suitcases to make up for it?

You know, when they were late sending packages, that's, like, okay, how about we send this person ten suitcases or a hundred suitcases to make up for it?

24:07

Like, that isn't that's what we want from customer that's what we want from customer service with direct to consumer businesses. Companies that have a total empathy

Like, that isn't that's what we want from customer that's what we want from customer service with direct to consumer businesses. Companies that have a total empathy

24:15

and to do the right thing when something gets, when something wrong happens. And so I really admired that.

and to do the right thing when something gets, when something wrong happens. And so I really admired that.

24:20

Yeah. The other thing from a press perspective, like, we You know, like at Native, I was trying to court the press early on and all, like,

Yeah. The other thing from a press perspective, like, we You know, like at Native, I was trying to court the press early on and all, like,

24:27

you know, CP, like, all product press. Like, I wanted to talk about Native Deogrant and not the success in the business.

you know, CP, like, all product press. Like, I wanted to talk about Native Deogrant and not the success in the business.

24:32

And what happened was that we couldn't get anybody to, like, write about us. And then, one day, we're, like, randomly we've created a Rose Aid deodorant and we, like, accidentally

And what happened was that we couldn't get anybody to, like, write about us. And then, one day, we're, like, randomly we've created a Rose Aid deodorant and we, like, accidentally

24:42

launched it June twenty first. It wasn't even our goal. Like, we, we didn't realize that it was the first day of summer, although it was the first day of summer. It just launched it. And all of a sudden, all all of these press institutions

launched it June twenty first. It wasn't even our goal. Like, we, we didn't realize that it was the first day of summer, although it was the first day of summer. It just launched it. And all of a sudden, all all of these press institutions

24:53

picked up, the product, which we never thought would happen. Yeah. But look, we were on good morning, America, the Today show,

picked up, the product, which we never thought would happen. Yeah. But look, we were on good morning, America, the Today show,

24:59

like, you know, in Vogue, in refinery twenty nine, probably like thirty or fifty publications in the course of twenty four hours. And I was like, great. We've, like, this is it. You know, we get all and in reality, like, I tracked the, custom I tracked our revenue from that day. And, like,

like, you know, in Vogue, in refinery twenty nine, probably like thirty or fifty publications in the course of twenty four hours. And I was like, great. We've, like, this is it. You know, we get all and in reality, like, I tracked the, custom I tracked our revenue from that day. And, like,

25:18

all of those publications got us an extra twenty five thousand dollars in revenue. And on that day, Facebook got us, like, fifty thousand dollars in revenue. And it was like,

all of those publications got us an extra twenty five thousand dollars in revenue. And on that day, Facebook got us, like, fifty thousand dollars in revenue. And it was like,

25:27

we were, like, we, we were, like, in a mini viral sensation. Certainly, like, nobody remembers it. Like, they Right. You know, other viral sensations it was in a lot of publications and we got twenty five thousand dollars. Totally.

we were, like, we, we were, like, in a mini viral sensation. Certainly, like, nobody remembers it. Like, they Right. You know, other viral sensations it was in a lot of publications and we got twenty five thousand dollars. Totally.

25:38

Well, I mean, it's What what is the why are people court impressed like this then?

Well, I mean, it's What what is the why are people court impressed like this then?

25:42

Yeah. Well, I think it's like,

Yeah. Well, I think it's like,

25:46

you know, it serves it serves both parties. Right? Because, like, you get pickup and it's it's good exposure. And then for a lot of these outlets,

you know, it serves it serves both parties. Right? Because, like, you get pickup and it's it's good exposure. And then for a lot of these outlets,

25:54

they just plug into your affiliate platform

they just plug into your affiliate platform

25:57

And if they can be contextually

And if they can be contextually

26:00

relevant for what consumers are thinking Yeah. Which is, you know, jumping in these first day of summer goals and and list of goals, then they're gonna try and make revenue off of it.

relevant for what consumers are thinking Yeah. Which is, you know, jumping in these first day of summer goals and and list of goals, then they're gonna try and make revenue off of it.

26:10

It's actually a good strategy for for when you try and launch stuff If you can be super contextually

It's actually a good strategy for for when you try and launch stuff If you can be super contextually

26:16

relevant to as many people as possible, which everybody can enjoy the first day of summer,

relevant to as many people as possible, which everybody can enjoy the first day of summer,

26:21

then you just increase your chances of getting picked up and things like that. Give me another example of something like that. Like, I'm sure with Judy, like, with did it happen with Judy? Look, give me another example because I, I have a tough time completely. Yeah.

then you just increase your chances of getting picked up and things like that. Give me another example of something like that. Like, I'm sure with Judy, like, with did it happen with Judy? Look, give me another example because I, I have a tough time completely. Yeah.

26:33

So,

So,

26:36

you know, with Judy,

you know, with Judy,

26:38

like, not speaking as a as a member of Judy, but more as like an outsider. You know, when Judy launched, there were, like, every Kardashian was posting about,

like, not speaking as a as a member of Judy, but more as like an outsider. You know, when Judy launched, there were, like, every Kardashian was posting about,

26:49

their Judy kit.

their Judy kit.

26:50

And and then Chrissy Teigen had posted it as well. And all of a sudden,

And and then Chrissy Teigen had posted it as well. And all of a sudden,

26:55

there was an angle of, like, the Kardashians are promoting this emergency kit. What is it? And so that became a press angle.

there was an angle of, like, the Kardashians are promoting this emergency kit. What is it? And so that became a press angle.

27:03

There was another People magazine article

There was another People magazine article

27:05

which did really well.

which did really well.

27:07

That was something around, like, what this new emergency kit that Kardashians and,

That was something around, like, what this new emergency kit that Kardashians and,

27:12

and, Chrissy Teigen are promoting.

and, Chrissy Teigen are promoting.

27:14

And so it's it's almost just like

And so it's it's almost just like

27:18

like

like

27:19

making sparks on one end and the fire happens on the other. Does that make sense? Yeah.

making sparks on one end and the fire happens on the other. Does that make sense? Yeah.

27:26

But that said, that one that one's a little bit different than, like, the Rose

But that said, that one that one's a little bit different than, like, the Rose

27:31

But

But

27:32

similar in the sense that you you you can there are ways to plan things like press. A lot of people tend to think that you just cold email,

similar in the sense that you you you can there are ways to plan things like press. A lot of people tend to think that you just cold email,

27:42

reporters asking to talk about your product, and then

reporters asking to talk about your product, and then

27:45

they'll magically, like, pick it up one day. But the real work comes in, like, figuring out the reason for them to write about it or creating that angle.

they'll magically, like, pick it up one day. But the real work comes in, like, figuring out the reason for them to write about it or creating that angle.

27:54

Yeah. Because they're also in as a publication, like, they're incentivized by ad revenue.

Yeah. Because they're also in as a publication, like, they're incentivized by ad revenue.

27:59

You make ad revenue by more page views. You get more page views by having a good angle. Yeah. It's like a weird weird loop. Yeah. You definitely have to be look, you can't just be like, here's this product, please write about it. You have to say, here's why I think it's interesting to the readers that you have. I remember when, in my first e commerce business, I've constantly, like, look for people who had written about something else in the space and then sort of be like, hey, here's something that you should talk about. So we it was a business that sold alcohol online. And so this tech crunch reporter wrote about a distillery in New York City for some reason. And I was like, well, That's not very tech crunchy, but if you're willing to write about that, maybe you're willing to write about us because we know that distillery and the number one seller of their products. And so he's like, okay, great. Let me write about you guys. So he wrote about us and then, like, Bloomberg picked us up. And,

You make ad revenue by more page views. You get more page views by having a good angle. Yeah. It's like a weird weird loop. Yeah. You definitely have to be look, you can't just be like, here's this product, please write about it. You have to say, here's why I think it's interesting to the readers that you have. I remember when, in my first e commerce business, I've constantly, like, look for people who had written about something else in the space and then sort of be like, hey, here's something that you should talk about. So we it was a business that sold alcohol online. And so this tech crunch reporter wrote about a distillery in New York City for some reason. And I was like, well, That's not very tech crunchy, but if you're willing to write about that, maybe you're willing to write about us because we know that distillery and the number one seller of their products. And so he's like, okay, great. Let me write about you guys. So he wrote about us and then, like, Bloomberg picked us up. And,

28:42

so we did, like, CNBC or something. Like, it was just random the, like, the kind of, like, flywheel effect that one single publication can have. And so, yeah, look, you gotta you have to be persistent, but you're right. Those angles are really important.

so we did, like, CNBC or something. Like, it was just random the, like, the kind of, like, flywheel effect that one single publication can have. And so, yeah, look, you gotta you have to be persistent, but you're right. Those angles are really important.

28:55

Yeah. If you, yeah, if you can nail one of those, anchors

Yeah. If you, yeah, if you can nail one of those, anchors

28:59

as like a, you know, whether it's an exclusive or or they pick it up first, then the others will definitely make a move to try and cover it just because,

as like a, you know, whether it's an exclusive or or they pick it up first, then the others will definitely make a move to try and cover it just because,

29:08

you know, if it's coming from, like, a Tech Crunch or Bloomberg, then they probably assume people are gonna be searching for it. Yeah. Did you guys hire a PR agent already at Judy or how are you guys doing that? Do you guys not need one because you guys have all these influencers?

you know, if it's coming from, like, a Tech Crunch or Bloomberg, then they probably assume people are gonna be searching for it. Yeah. Did you guys hire a PR agent already at Judy or how are you guys doing that? Do you guys not need one because you guys have all these influencers?

29:21

Yeah. They use no. They they use an agency.

Yeah. They use no. They they use an agency.

29:24

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

29:25

Yeah.

Yeah.

29:26

Yeah. When we were, like, running native, I tried to get an agency And, we ultimately settled on one. But, like, before that, I called up, like, the guys that are sort of doing a lot of direct to consumer

Yeah. When we were, like, running native, I tried to get an agency And, we ultimately settled on one. But, like, before that, I called up, like, the guys that are sort of doing a lot of direct to consumer

29:37

like, direct to consumer PR work in New York. And they were like, yeah, we charge twenty five thousand dollars a month plus one year.

like, direct to consumer PR work in New York. And they were like, yeah, we charge twenty five thousand dollars a month plus one year.

29:44

And I was like, oh, fucking crazy.

And I was like, oh, fucking crazy.

29:48

I I don't understand where this number came from. It was a one percent equity ask, and I was like, you don't know anything about my business and you want one percent of it. Look, I I like the Allbirds, and you could be asking for one percent of it, or I could be a brand that does, you know, ten thousand dollars a year and you won't want like, those are two completely different apps. Right? Like, one is worth more than ten million dollars, and the other is probably worth the dollar.

I I don't understand where this number came from. It was a one percent equity ask, and I was like, you don't know anything about my business and you want one percent of it. Look, I I like the Allbirds, and you could be asking for one percent of it, or I could be a brand that does, you know, ten thousand dollars a year and you won't want like, those are two completely different apps. Right? Like, one is worth more than ten million dollars, and the other is probably worth the dollar.

30:11

So how could you just ask for one percent equity without knowing anything else about my debt? That's insane.

So how could you just ask for one percent equity without knowing anything else about my debt? That's insane.

30:16

Have you have have you seen people like do that kind of stuff?

Have you have have you seen people like do that kind of stuff?

30:19

Oh, totally. Well, the branding agent some branding agencies

Oh, totally. Well, the branding agent some branding agencies

30:23

do it and still do it.

do it and still do it.

30:25

I haven't seen it from PR. I know there's a couple firms in New York that'll do, like,

I haven't seen it from PR. I know there's a couple firms in New York that'll do, like,

30:31

that that will do, like, growth marketing, and they'll also take some equity. Yeah. But it's it's,

that that will do, like, growth marketing, and they'll also take some equity. Yeah. But it's it's,

30:39

I don't know. I think that concept's kinda weird to, like, it's it's almost like exchanging currency. And I think your currencies just have to be, you know, same. Yeah. That's why we use cash. Yeah. You shouldn't, yeah, you shouldn't fuck with changing equity for services and It just gets really messy. Also, I was talking with somebody, and he was saying that when you get to, like, let's say, you know, you're early and you're, like, a, like, a native, for example,

I don't know. I think that concept's kinda weird to, like, it's it's almost like exchanging currency. And I think your currencies just have to be, you know, same. Yeah. That's why we use cash. Yeah. You shouldn't, yeah, you shouldn't fuck with changing equity for services and It just gets really messy. Also, I was talking with somebody, and he was saying that when you get to, like, let's say, you know, you're early and you're, like, a, like, a native, for example,

31:02

Yeah. And you you go off. If you didn't get acquired and you you started raising, like, like, round c and d, like, those investors start looking at your cap table thinking,

Yeah. And you you go off. If you didn't get acquired and you you started raising, like, like, round c and d, like, those investors start looking at your cap table thinking,

31:11

Why the fuck does this branding agency have two percent of the company? Like, just knock them off. And so they'll just end up getting screwed later.

Why the fuck does this branding agency have two percent of the company? Like, just knock them off. And so they'll just end up getting screwed later.

31:20

Oh, that's interesting.

Oh, that's interesting.

31:22

I didn't realize that people would do that. I I mean, from, like, a branding agency perspective, I'm a little bit more amenable to it because presumably your business is just start a thing when you work with that branding agency. And so you're both at, like, you know, it's worth nothing and you you might not have a ton of cash. I was just surprised as, like, this, like, you know, at that point, Native was probably doing, you know, two million, three million dollars a month. And this person said, we want one percent of your company. And I was like, do you want one like, this company could be doing three million a month, or it could be doing thirty thousand a month, you don't know, and you're just asking for the statement, just making no sense to me. Right.

I didn't realize that people would do that. I I mean, from, like, a branding agency perspective, I'm a little bit more amenable to it because presumably your business is just start a thing when you work with that branding agency. And so you're both at, like, you know, it's worth nothing and you you might not have a ton of cash. I was just surprised as, like, this, like, you know, at that point, Native was probably doing, you know, two million, three million dollars a month. And this person said, we want one percent of your company. And I was like, do you want one like, this company could be doing three million a month, or it could be doing thirty thousand a month, you don't know, and you're just asking for the statement, just making no sense to me. Right.

31:52

That's insane.

That's insane.

31:55

Yeah. I would like, you know, I wish that somebody had put together, like, a yelp of,

Yeah. I would like, you know, I wish that somebody had put together, like, a yelp of,

32:00

vendors that e commerce companies used? Yeah. I know. There's honestly, like, that's that's one of the things I get asked the most is, like, who are who's the best you know, I always get, like, what's a what's a great paid media agency, and really

vendors that e commerce companies used? Yeah. I know. There's honestly, like, that's that's one of the things I get asked the most is, like, who are who's the best you know, I always get, like, what's a what's a great paid media agency, and really

32:13

where people go wrong is

where people go wrong is

32:15

is one

is one

32:17

they they just read stuff on the internet,

they they just read stuff on the internet,

32:19

and they, you know, like, agencies are all marketing themselves. So they'll all call themselves the best. And so

and they, you know, like, agencies are all marketing themselves. So they'll all call themselves the best. And so

32:25

one mistake is is going by that. The second mistake is thinking,

one mistake is is going by that. The second mistake is thinking,

32:29

oh,

oh,

32:32

you know,

you know,

32:33

like, this agency looks sick. I wanna work with them, and I made that mistake a hint

like, this agency looks sick. I wanna work with them, and I made that mistake a hint

32:38

where I thought, an agency

where I thought, an agency

32:41

which is a sick agency.

which is a sick agency.

32:43

They they were just they did good work. And so but the problem was you realize that, like, certain agencies are built for businesses at different stages. And so, you know, we were too we were too small for that agency to really care.

They they were just they did good work. And so but the problem was you realize that, like, certain agencies are built for businesses at different stages. And so, you know, we were too we were too small for that agency to really care.

32:58

But now I've kind of narrowed it down to, like, you know, if you're, like, if you're under two hundred k, there's different person. If you're between, like,

But now I've kind of narrowed it down to, like, you know, if you're, like, if you're under two hundred k, there's different person. If you're between, like,

33:07

three hundred,

three hundred,

33:08

I don't know,

I don't know,

33:10

a million, two million. It's a different stage. And, like, you know, two million plus is a different stage.

a million, two million. It's a different stage. And, like, you know, two million plus is a different stage.

33:15

Yeah. That that's a great point. And San goes for, like, PR

Yeah. That that's a great point. And San goes for, like, PR

33:18

and, you know, everything. Email PR, like, all your services, affiliate too.

and, you know, everything. Email PR, like, all your services, affiliate too.

33:23

They're all different at different stages.

They're all different at different stages.

33:26

Yeah. You don't wanna be, like,

Yeah. You don't wanna be, like,

33:28

the smallest fish in a ginormous pond. Like, you don't wanna work with an email agency that is also working with, like, Nike and

the smallest fish in a ginormous pond. Like, you don't wanna work with an email agency that is also working with, like, Nike and

33:36

Exactly.

Exactly.

33:37

Because you're never their priority.

Because you're never their priority.

33:39

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Exactly.

33:40

It is interesting that you, like, you know,

It is interesting that you, like, you know,

33:43

at Native, what happened is the first, our first, like, six months of the business, we lost our contract. Like, the person who was making our product was like, I'm gonna stop making this. And so we had to find another company. And, like, the other company that we were working with with, like, this

at Native, what happened is the first, our first, like, six months of the business, we lost our contract. Like, the person who was making our product was like, I'm gonna stop making this. And so we had to find another company. And, like, the other company that we were working with with, like, this

33:55

you know, I think you know them at this point is eight hundred. They're working at an eight hundred square foot facility at the time, or something tiny and like

you know, I think you know them at this point is eight hundred. They're working at an eight hundred square foot facility at the time, or something tiny and like

34:02

it was perfect for us because when we call them up, we're like, hey, we wanna order a thousand units a week, and they're like, that's fine. That's, like, you know, a very difficult request for us.

it was perfect for us because when we call them up, we're like, hey, we wanna order a thousand units a week, and they're like, that's fine. That's, like, you know, a very difficult request for us.

34:12

Other people who we spoke to, they're like, you need to order a hundred thousand units out of gate. And I was like, we can't even afford that. So this is a nonstarter.

Other people who we spoke to, they're like, you need to order a hundred thousand units out of gate. And I was like, we can't even afford that. So this is a nonstarter.

34:18

And Well, can you share what your cogs were?

And Well, can you share what your cogs were?

34:21

When we launched when we launched the business at first, it was five dollars and fifty cents to make a stick of native dealer.

When we launched when we launched the business at first, it was five dollars and fifty cents to make a stick of native dealer.

34:27

So, like, we're still alive for ten. Fifteen. And we were selling it for twelve. Yeah.

So, like, we're still alive for ten. Fifteen. And we were selling it for twelve. Yeah.

34:32

Twelve. And you were profitable with Facebook?

Twelve. And you were profitable with Facebook?

34:35

We were profitable with Facebook. Which is crazy. Nice. What's insane? In twenty fifteen, our our CAC was like two dollars. In twenty sixteen, it was four dollars.

We were profitable with Facebook. Which is crazy. Nice. What's insane? In twenty fifteen, our our CAC was like two dollars. In twenty sixteen, it was four dollars.

34:45

And by at the end of twenty sixteen, we're doing a million dollars a month. So there was a ton of EBITDA that the business was generating. But, like, the the cogs went down a ton. So it went from, like, five fifty to that, at that original manufacturer. We switched and it became, like, three twenty. And every time we sort of grew, they brought the cost down. We went from, like, making a thousand units of deal in a week

And by at the end of twenty sixteen, we're doing a million dollars a month. So there was a ton of EBITDA that the business was generating. But, like, the the cogs went down a ton. So it went from, like, five fifty to that, at that original manufacturer. We switched and it became, like, three twenty. And every time we sort of grew, they brought the cost down. We went from, like, making a thousand units of deal in a week

35:03

in at the end of twenty fifteen or at the beginning of twenty sixteen. By the, you know, middle of twenty seventeen, we were making twenty one thousand units a day. And so we had just increased sales by, like, you know, I don't know, twenty times five, a hundred, high I was, like, you know, a hundred packs, basically. And,

in at the end of twenty fifteen or at the beginning of twenty sixteen. By the, you know, middle of twenty seventeen, we were making twenty one thousand units a day. And so we had just increased sales by, like, you know, I don't know, twenty times five, a hundred, high I was, like, you know, a hundred packs, basically. And,

35:20

And so our cost came down to below two dollars, like substantially below two dollars. And,

And so our cost came down to below two dollars, like substantially below two dollars. And,

35:26

like, you know, what was amazing is we found a manufacturer that was really able to grow with move from like this eight hundred square foot facility to a twenty thousand square foot facility, each now forty thousand square foot facility, rarely do you find service providers that grow with you? Usually, you go to a service provider and you outgrow them, and they don't make the infrastructure changes that they need, and then you gotta go find somebody new.

like, you know, what was amazing is we found a manufacturer that was really able to grow with move from like this eight hundred square foot facility to a twenty thousand square foot facility, each now forty thousand square foot facility, rarely do you find service providers that grow with you? Usually, you go to a service provider and you outgrow them, and they don't make the infrastructure changes that they need, and then you gotta go find somebody new.

35:46

Totally. Totally.

Totally. Totally.

35:48

Did you ever consider,

Did you ever consider,

35:50

you know, like, especially when you were doing, let's say, five thousand deodorants a day. Did you ever consider like, oh, I why don't why don't I just buy the the facility to do it and buy the raw ingredients?

you know, like, especially when you were doing, let's say, five thousand deodorants a day. Did you ever consider like, oh, I why don't why don't I just buy the the facility to do it and buy the raw ingredients?

36:03

Yeah. Certainly did. Not too seriously though. Like,

Yeah. Certainly did. Not too seriously though. Like,

36:08

you know, we were

you know, we were

36:09

like, the business was growing potentially. And, like, if you, you could work eighty hours a week just on the business without touching a single piece of the back end. And so it became really difficult. Like, it didn't have the But for you, it was just, like, was also peace of mind that it was, like, being taken care of. Yeah. And the simplicity. Like, when we were, like, you know, when we sold the business there were eight employees at the manufacturing facility, I think they're a hundred and forty. At the shipment facility, there were, like, another hundred people. And so,

like, the business was growing potentially. And, like, if you, you could work eighty hours a week just on the business without touching a single piece of the back end. And so it became really difficult. Like, it didn't have the But for you, it was just, like, was also peace of mind that it was, like, being taken care of. Yeah. And the simplicity. Like, when we were, like, you know, when we sold the business there were eight employees at the manufacturing facility, I think they're a hundred and forty. At the shipment facility, there were, like, another hundred people. And so,

36:34

you know, there were eight employees and we had created something like two hundred and fifty jobs. But, like, I only had to manage eight employees. And I think one of the things I realized, working at Native was, I, like, one of my weaknesses is, like, managing employees. It's something that I'm trying to work on and, like, giving those structure and goals and communicating with them well. And,

you know, there were eight employees and we had created something like two hundred and fifty jobs. But, like, I only had to manage eight employees. And I think one of the things I realized, working at Native was, I, like, one of my weaknesses is, like, managing employees. It's something that I'm trying to work on and, like, giving those structure and goals and communicating with them well. And,

36:55

And, like, I was like, I can barely do that with eight people sitting here. If there were two hundred and fifty, I put a bullet in my head right now. Like, they put a bullet in me, actually.

And, like, I was like, I can barely do that with eight people sitting here. If there were two hundred and fifty, I put a bullet in my head right now. Like, they put a bullet in me, actually.

37:02

Yeah.

Yeah.

37:03

And the person who was making it was just fantastic at it, like, had very few problems. She worked really hard to make them, well, and so that was really it gave me a lot of peace of mind.

And the person who was making it was just fantastic at it, like, had very few problems. She worked really hard to make them, well, and so that was really it gave me a lot of peace of mind.

37:12

That's awesome. What if, like, other what are other, like, agents, you know, you talked about postscript, which I think is fantastic when it comes to text messaging, but it's like the Clarity of text messaging.

That's awesome. What if, like, other what are other, like, agents, you know, you talked about postscript, which I think is fantastic when it comes to text messaging, but it's like the Clarity of text messaging.

37:21

I really I I'm not sure if you've ever dealt with, like, chipmunk. They're based in, like, Miami. They do they're Yeah. You you've,

I really I I'm not sure if you've ever dealt with, like, chipmunk. They're based in, like, Miami. They do they're Yeah. You you've,

37:27

introduced me to them.

introduced me to them.

37:29

They're they're, like, the only three people I've ever met that is run by a young person that's in the twenty first century. Like, they're they have they have really good tech. What are some of the other agencies that you recommend to people or some of the other companies that you recommend?

They're they're, like, the only three people I've ever met that is run by a young person that's in the twenty first century. Like, they're they have they have really good tech. What are some of the other agencies that you recommend to people or some of the other companies that you recommend?

37:43

So like most media buying, I recommend Metrc Digital.

So like most media buying, I recommend Metrc Digital.

37:47

They're just, like, their bread and butter is is DTC brands, especially if you have, like, a retail presence. They're really good at that.

They're just, like, their bread and butter is is DTC brands, especially if you have, like, a retail presence. They're really good at that.

37:55

Let's see. Texting SMS,

Let's see. Texting SMS,

37:57

email, probably Clavio.

email, probably Clavio.

38:00

If you're an influencer for texting,

If you're an influencer for texting,

38:03

use community

use community

38:05

Is that what you use?

Is that what you use?

38:08

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Okay.

38:10

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah. Yep.

38:12

Let's see. Landing Pages, build them on Netlify,

Let's see. Landing Pages, build them on Netlify,

38:16

commerce, use Shopify. Although, you're not really a show you're you'd rather use commerce.

commerce, use Shopify. Although, you're not really a show you're you'd rather use commerce.

38:21

Which is crazy because, like, woocommerce

Which is crazy because, like, woocommerce

38:23

is,

is,

38:26

you know, I I when I used to use it, I was like, I'm so embarrassed telling people that I use it, and now I haven't used Shopify. I'm like,

you know, I I when I used to use it, I was like, I'm so embarrassed telling people that I use it, and now I haven't used Shopify. I'm like,

38:32

you idiots.

you idiots.

38:34

You guys are

You guys are

38:35

like, now I'm embarrassed with Shopify. But, like,

like, now I'm embarrassed with Shopify. But, like,

38:38

Shopify is great, but it offered, you know, our conversion rate went down by, like,

Shopify is great, but it offered, you know, our conversion rate went down by, like,

38:43

a significant, a material amount, once we switch from Mood to Shopify,

a significant, a material amount, once we switch from Mood to Shopify,

38:46

And it's because, like, Shopify checkout page.

And it's because, like, Shopify checkout page.

38:50

I thought that, like, Shopify would be better than it is. Like, I thought Shopify

I thought that, like, Shopify would be better than it is. Like, I thought Shopify

38:54

would have all these network effects and it really doesn't have those. Its checkout page is terrible. Like, it's a multi step checkout page. The coupon code box doesn't appear on the cart page like It does close to the businesses at this point. It's only on the checkout page.

would have all these network effects and it really doesn't have those. Its checkout page is terrible. Like, it's a multi step checkout page. The coupon code box doesn't appear on the cart page like It does close to the businesses at this point. It's only on the checkout page.

39:08

You can't control the server. Like, you know, at Native,

You can't control the server. Like, you know, at Native,

39:11

I actually bought a bunch of servers

I actually bought a bunch of servers

39:13

like, we didn't use AWS for a long time. I actually bought some servers and put them up in, like, you know, server farms. And our site was blazing fast. And at Shopify, you can't do that.

like, we didn't use AWS for a long time. I actually bought some servers and put them up in, like, you know, server farms. And our site was blazing fast. And at Shopify, you can't do that.

39:24

And then we use, like, you know,

And then we use, like, you know,

39:26

we use our subscription portal, which was

we use our subscription portal, which was

39:29

that, like, you know, which was a lot cheaper than recharge, which is what which is what made of these is today, like, like, it was free, actually. And how does recharge charge you?

that, like, you know, which was a lot cheaper than recharge, which is what which is what made of these is today, like, like, it was free, actually. And how does recharge charge you?

39:39

They charge a percentage of your subscription sales.

They charge a percentage of your subscription sales.

39:44

What? What a beautiful business. Yeah. I I mean, like, you know, we went from we went from thousands of dollars a month. Yeah. It was crazy. Yeah. Like my next business will be on Blue commerce again. And next time, I will not have any shame whatsoever. No. No. I'm on woocommerce.

What? What a beautiful business. Yeah. I I mean, like, you know, we went from we went from thousands of dollars a month. Yeah. It was crazy. Yeah. Like my next business will be on Blue commerce again. And next time, I will not have any shame whatsoever. No. No. I'm on woocommerce.

39:58

You're, like, you know, like, someone that's, told

You're, like, you know, like, someone that's, told

40:02

Mark someone asked Margaret thatcher, like, how do you, like, how can you have the position that you have when there's eighty people that disagree with you? Like, how does that make you feel? She's like, I feel bad for the eighty people. Because I'm right when they're wrong. That's now how I feel about woocommerce. Yeah. Yeah. At the the hardest part was just like the developer community. It still needed some more. Like, there should be more development. Well, there's it that's my biggest tough thing is finding

Mark someone asked Margaret thatcher, like, how do you, like, how can you have the position that you have when there's eighty people that disagree with you? Like, how does that make you feel? She's like, I feel bad for the eighty people. Because I'm right when they're wrong. That's now how I feel about woocommerce. Yeah. Yeah. At the the hardest part was just like the developer community. It still needed some more. Like, there should be more development. Well, there's it that's my biggest tough thing is finding

40:25

really good developers on Shopify. Like, I have one who

really good developers on Shopify. Like, I have one who

40:30

I just have one retainer for myself. Like, just for myself, I have a Shopify developer who's on my payroll.

I just have one retainer for myself. Like, just for myself, I have a Shopify developer who's on my payroll.

40:36

And anything I need done, I can hit him up. And

And anything I need done, I can hit him up. And

40:39

it's just it's so necessary because Yeah. A lot of times too, you know, like, Shopify

it's just it's so necessary because Yeah. A lot of times too, you know, like, Shopify

40:46

agencies that are on retainers for some of these brands They're also sometimes not the best developers,

agencies that are on retainers for some of these brands They're also sometimes not the best developers,

40:51

and and then, you know, you can't necessarily rely on,

and and then, you know, you can't necessarily rely on,

40:56

just internal developer teams either.

just internal developer teams either.

40:59

For me, I like having my own, like, set of tools.

For me, I like having my own, like, set of tools.

41:02

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, especially ones that you understand.

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, especially ones that you understand.

41:05

Yeah. And I think it's, like, it's really hard, like, you know, you're working on a bunch of different businesses at the same time. And it's really hard to say, okay, these guys use unbounce. This guy uses something else. This this company is a third party for, a landing page. And now you're, like, I have to, like, learn all these systems that might be helpful.

Yeah. And I think it's, like, it's really hard, like, you know, you're working on a bunch of different businesses at the same time. And it's really hard to say, okay, these guys use unbounce. This guy uses something else. This this company is a third party for, a landing page. And now you're, like, I have to, like, learn all these systems that might be helpful.

41:21

Yeah. It is really difficult to do all that. Yeah. It is actually

Yeah. It is really difficult to do all that. Yeah. It is actually

41:25

Sorry. Go ahead. No. No. Go ahead. No. We can finish that.

Sorry. Go ahead. No. No. Go ahead. No. We can finish that.

41:29

Okay. What are other industry, like, you know, direct yeah. When when we launched native dealer, when I launched Native, I was thinking about doing Native or another mattress company.

Okay. What are other industry, like, you know, direct yeah. When when we launched native dealer, when I launched Native, I was thinking about doing Native or another mattress company.

41:38

And I'm not entirely sure that, like, I think the mattress company could have been even better. Like, it seems like everyone who makes a mattress company has hundreds of millions of dollars in sales in the same industry.

And I'm not entirely sure that, like, I think the mattress company could have been even better. Like, it seems like everyone who makes a mattress company has hundreds of millions of dollars in sales in the same industry.

41:49

But, you know, hindsight is twenty twenty.

But, you know, hindsight is twenty twenty.

41:52

And, like, no one was really doing deodorant at the time. And today, there's, like, five thousand companies doing deodorant. And, like, you know, they're so,

And, like, no one was really doing deodorant at the time. And today, there's, like, five thousand companies doing deodorant. And, like, you know, they're so,

42:00

Like, they're not annoying. I'm just like, look, this is a three billion dollar a year industry.

Like, they're not annoying. I'm just like, look, this is a three billion dollar a year industry.

42:05

The two biggest players, unil, Unilever and Procter and Gamble have made acquisitions in this space.

The two biggest players, unil, Unilever and Procter and Gamble have made acquisitions in this space.

42:11

You know, we're we're digitally savvy. We have a huge first mover advantage. We have a good price point and good brand. Where do you look much of a business are you looking to acquire? If you're looking to build a ten million dollar a year business, I get it. If you're looking to build a two hundred million dollar a year business, you know, that's seven percent of the market, that's gonna be really difficult to do. Mhmm. There are other industries that are untapped today. Like, where should people be, like, you know, do you like,

You know, we're we're digitally savvy. We have a huge first mover advantage. We have a good price point and good brand. Where do you look much of a business are you looking to acquire? If you're looking to build a ten million dollar a year business, I get it. If you're looking to build a two hundred million dollar a year business, you know, that's seven percent of the market, that's gonna be really difficult to do. Mhmm. There are other industries that are untapped today. Like, where should people be, like, you know, do you like,

42:33

what's a good example? Like, when Quip came out, I was like, wow, this is great. You guys are doing great job with brand. No one's touching electric toothbrush.

what's a good example? Like, when Quip came out, I was like, wow, this is great. You guys are doing great job with brand. No one's touching electric toothbrush.

42:41

Great industry to be in.

Great industry to be in.

42:43

What are other businesses that, like,

What are other businesses that, like,

42:46

need revolution?

need revolution?

42:47

Like, some are hard. So for instance, I think, like, diapers is a great business. It's really hard because to make diapers, it's really expensive.

Like, some are hard. So for instance, I think, like, diapers is a great business. It's really hard because to make diapers, it's really expensive.

42:54

You need a lot of inventory.

You need a lot of inventory.

42:56

You need a lot of different sizes, and there's very few companies that can private label

You need a lot of different sizes, and there's very few companies that can private label

43:00

diapers. You need like a very expensive paper machine in order to make a diaper.

diapers. You need like a very expensive paper machine in order to make a diaper.

43:05

Yeah.

Yeah.

43:07

To be honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure what, like, the most ripe would be. Just from observations though, I think Pat is one that, like, hasn't really been done from a product side.

To be honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure what, like, the most ripe would be. Just from observations though, I think Pat is one that, like, hasn't really been done from a product side.

43:17

There's a lot of pet food brands that are getting,

There's a lot of pet food brands that are getting,

43:20

out there, but not necessarily product wise.

out there, but not necessarily product wise.

43:24

I still think there's just like I think there's a lot on the side of convenience and accessibility

I still think there's just like I think there's a lot on the side of convenience and accessibility

43:30

even some of these brands that have come out with stuff, just making things even simpler.

even some of these brands that have come out with stuff, just making things even simpler.

43:36

So I think that's one area.

So I think that's one area.

43:39

Don't know. The other day, I was thinking of direct to consumer sauce. There's no sauce comp there's no, like, d t DC buffalo sauce. Somebody told me,

Don't know. The other day, I was thinking of direct to consumer sauce. There's no sauce comp there's no, like, d t DC buffalo sauce. Somebody told me,

43:49

That's really funny. Yeah. That would be interesting.

That's really funny. Yeah. That would be interesting.

43:51

Or, like, dressings. But Have you heard of circular wheels? I

Or, like, dressings. But Have you heard of circular wheels? I

43:56

I have. Yeah. Yeah. Their stuff is good. Yeah. Probably the closest to that. What are some direct to casino brands that you really admire right now?

I have. Yeah. Yeah. Their stuff is good. Yeah. Probably the closest to that. What are some direct to casino brands that you really admire right now?

44:05

Dudewives, just one of my favorite.

Dudewives, just one of my favorite.

44:07

Dude Wipes is one of my favorite because I think they have, like, some of just the funniest content. Dude Wipes live in butt wipes. It's like the one wipe Charlie from dollar shave club.

Dude Wipes is one of my favorite because I think they have, like, some of just the funniest content. Dude Wipes live in butt wipes. It's like the one wipe Charlie from dollar shave club.

44:16

Yeah. Okay. And it's,

Yeah. Okay. And it's,

44:19

they they were on shark tank years ago. And,

they they were on shark tank years ago. And,

44:22

like, they they're really good operators.

like, they they're really good operators.

44:26

And so because they're really good operators, all they've done is just build brand in, like, the coolest ways possible.

And so because they're really good operators, all they've done is just build brand in, like, the coolest ways possible.

44:32

Yeah. So, like, their emails are just the best.

Yeah. So, like, their emails are just the best.

44:36

Other brands I admire. How rare is it people to look for you, like, look forward to an email from a direct to consumer company? Like, all the emails that people Oh, so rare. So rare. My promotions tab, I'm just like, I hate, like, I don't wanna look at any of this kind of stuff. Yeah. Highlight all of it, archive.

Other brands I admire. How rare is it people to look for you, like, look forward to an email from a direct to consumer company? Like, all the emails that people Oh, so rare. So rare. My promotions tab, I'm just like, I hate, like, I don't wanna look at any of this kind of stuff. Yeah. Highlight all of it, archive.

44:51

I'll I'll like scan through, like

I'll I'll like scan through, like

44:54

yeah. Yeah.

yeah. Yeah.

44:55

I'll usually look through and and see if there's any, like, cool new templates or

I'll usually look through and and see if there's any, like, cool new templates or

45:00

cool things that people are doing with their audience. But,

cool things that people are doing with their audience. But,

45:04

other aside from, like, you know, like, I signed up for Quibi,

other aside from, like, you know, like, I signed up for Quibi,

45:07

And so, like, I'll I've been checking out some of their emails, but nothing's really that great.

And so, like, I'll I've been checking out some of their emails, but nothing's really that great.

45:13

But honestly lately, it's just been full of sales. Everybody's just trying to liquidate

But honestly lately, it's just been full of sales. Everybody's just trying to liquidate

45:18

Yeah.

Yeah.

45:20

Alright. So so I'm sorry. But I interrupted you because I think you had a couple other brands that you said you're gonna admire that you admired.

Alright. So so I'm sorry. But I interrupted you because I think you had a couple other brands that you said you're gonna admire that you admired.

45:25

Oh, yeah. Couple other brands.

Oh, yeah. Couple other brands.

45:31

You know, I think what House is doing is pretty awesome. Because they're very, like, they're they're super their other manufacturing is done literally on their farm, and they have all the bottles

You know, I think what House is doing is pretty awesome. Because they're very, like, they're they're super their other manufacturing is done literally on their farm, and they have all the bottles

45:43

as, like, inventory to fill.

as, like, inventory to fill.

45:45

And Helena is just a great brand marketer. And so she's really good at just pivoting and and making things pop. Is insane. So that one's really exciting

And Helena is just a great brand marketer. And so she's really good at just pivoting and and making things pop. Is insane. So that one's really exciting

45:54

for me to watch,

for me to watch,

45:56

and also learn from.

and also learn from.

45:57

And then

And then

46:00

you know, on the

you know, on the

46:02

I I usually have, like, a couple favors I like on the brand side and then a couple favors on the performance side. Not necessarily they're like that good brand, but they just crush with performance.

I I usually have, like, a couple favors I like on the brand side and then a couple favors on the performance side. Not necessarily they're like that good brand, but they just crush with performance.

46:12

They have great landing pages, great ads,

They have great landing pages, great ads,

46:15

like, really, like yours is the native one is one of my favorites. Just the the homepage or the landing page, the cart, the all the upsells,

like, really, like yours is the native one is one of my favorites. Just the the homepage or the landing page, the cart, the all the upsells,

46:23

the payment token holds. Yeah. Yeah. The All the fancy

the payment token holds. Yeah. Yeah. The All the fancy

46:26

you know, the upsells were crazy. We have a post purchase upsell where we sell

you know, the upsells were crazy. We have a post purchase upsell where we sell

46:31

a, I mean, like, a travel size deodorant, which we couldn't sell otherwise, right? It sells for three dollars and it's free shipping. So we couldn't sell you that in, like, we would lose so much money if we sold you that individually.

a, I mean, like, a travel size deodorant, which we couldn't sell otherwise, right? It sells for three dollars and it's free shipping. So we couldn't sell you that in, like, we would lose so much money if we sold you that individually.

46:42

And,

And,

46:42

you know, we sell hundreds of thousands of those

you know, we sell hundreds of thousands of those

46:46

many sized deodorants

many sized deodorants

46:47

every month. And they, like, you know, they're very profitable as well. Like, often our EBITDA was, you know, like,

every month. And they, like, you know, they're very profitable as well. Like, often our EBITDA was, you know, like,

46:54

a a Costco, your mem like, their EBITDA is basically just their membership fees. I was like, wow, our EBITDA is almost all, like, you know, mini sized geographies that we're selling because there's so much money. Yeah.

a a Costco, your mem like, their EBITDA is basically just their membership fees. I was like, wow, our EBITDA is almost all, like, you know, mini sized geographies that we're selling because there's so much money. Yeah.

47:06

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

47:09

But, yeah, I I usually have, like, a small tub of brands. I just keep looking at their stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Likewise.

But, yeah, I I usually have, like, a small tub of brands. I just keep looking at their stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Likewise.

47:15

You know, I talked to the guy who founded hims and hers for podcast on that week ago. And here's, like, when we've, yeah, Andrew, when we launched the business,

You know, I talked to the guy who founded hims and hers for podcast on that week ago. And here's, like, when we've, yeah, Andrew, when we launched the business,

47:23

we separated our marketing budget and we got our board of directors to sort of say, okay,

we separated our marketing budget and we got our board of directors to sort of say, okay,

47:28

We're gonna spend x percentage of our marketing budget on performance and y percent on brand, like, right out of the gate.

We're gonna spend x percentage of our marketing budget on performance and y percent on brand, like, right out of the gate.

47:35

And I thought that was interesting.

And I thought that was interesting.

47:37

No. He said the majority was still performance.

No. He said the majority was still performance.

47:40

Yeah.

Yeah.

47:41

Well, that that was the and he's like, you know, we do brand stuff, like, we buy,

Well, that that was the and he's like, you know, we do brand stuff, like, we buy,

47:45

coasters at bars

coasters at bars

47:47

So if you're Yeah. Honestly, my favorite thing about hims is Andrew is just a genius with I call it, like, finding that

So if you're Yeah. Honestly, my favorite thing about hims is Andrew is just a genius with I call it, like, finding that

47:55

that new, quote, unquote inventory,

that new, quote, unquote inventory,

47:57

you know, like,

you know, like,

47:58

like, above urinals, the coasters.

like, above urinals, the coasters.

48:01

Bumble used to do coffee sleeves,

Bumble used to do coffee sleeves,

48:04

I I love seeing brands do stuff like that. It's great. Like, I would like That to me is just, like, so creative. Yeah. And, like, how many guys are bars on Friday night and all of a sudden, like, you can you might be able to have a conversation about it because it's on your coaster. And it's a product that these people, like, the bars are giving away for, like, you know, coasters or disposables certainly, like, it was really Yeah. You cover their costs too.

I I love seeing brands do stuff like that. It's great. Like, I would like That to me is just, like, so creative. Yeah. And, like, how many guys are bars on Friday night and all of a sudden, like, you can you might be able to have a conversation about it because it's on your coaster. And it's a product that these people, like, the bars are giving away for, like, you know, coasters or disposables certainly, like, it was really Yeah. You cover their costs too.

48:27

Yeah. It it was a great idea. And,

Yeah. It it was a great idea. And,

48:30

I but I like, so at one, I was really impressed by, like, the, marketing channels that he had created.

I but I like, so at one, I was really impressed by, like, the, marketing channels that he had created.

48:36

That didn't exist beforehand. And then two, like, I've never heard of a direct to consumer business at such a young stage sort of having the ability to spend so much money on brand marketing. Usually, like, you have one marketing budget. And, you know, you said some on brand and some on performance, but in reality, you have, like, these numbers that you have to hit. And he's like, well, this is how we do it. And, like, we have to invest in brand if we want to be around twenty years later.

That didn't exist beforehand. And then two, like, I've never heard of a direct to consumer business at such a young stage sort of having the ability to spend so much money on brand marketing. Usually, like, you have one marketing budget. And, you know, you said some on brand and some on performance, but in reality, you have, like, these numbers that you have to hit. And he's like, well, this is how we do it. And, like, we have to invest in brand if we want to be around twenty years later.

49:00

Yeah.

Yeah.

49:01

It's a good I mean, it's definitely a good point. Yeah. It's a great point. I feel like a way did that. I feel like Albert's did that as well. I just don't know Like, Native never did that. Never spent one penny on hand. Yeah.

It's a good I mean, it's definitely a good point. Yeah. It's a great point. I feel like a way did that. I feel like Albert's did that as well. I just don't know Like, Native never did that. Never spent one penny on hand. Yeah.

49:13

Well, hint and I don't know if all our marketing budget was performance too. An a hint?

Well, hint and I don't know if all our marketing budget was performance too. An a hint?

49:18

Yeah. Most of it was performance.

Yeah. Most of it was performance.

49:22

You know, actually, pretty much I would say most of the the brands that I've touched,

You know, actually, pretty much I would say most of the the brands that I've touched,

49:27

and it could just be because I I mostly

and it could just be because I I mostly

49:30

work with, like, the hyper growth ones or the you know, more performance based, but a lot of them, their marketing budget is focused on

work with, like, the hyper growth ones or the you know, more performance based, but a lot of them, their marketing budget is focused on

49:38

performance and then

performance and then

49:40

Either, like, what's leftover or very tiny percentage is dedicated to brand. This brand. But I do think that, like, brand I mean, Andrew did a great job building him. So, like, everybody knew what Kims was. Yeah. Everybody knew, like, the day of launch, basically.

Either, like, what's leftover or very tiny percentage is dedicated to brand. This brand. But I do think that, like, brand I mean, Andrew did a great job building him. So, like, everybody knew what Kims was. Yeah. Everybody knew, like, the day of launch, basically.

49:54

Yeah. That was that was a really good job. I wonder, like,

Yeah. That was that was a really good job. I wonder, like,

49:58

You know, I was like, then I look back on things and I'm like, okay. What is right and what is wrong? Like, outdoor voices, I certainly spend a ton on brand. And is, like, struggle to find an exit and struggle to sort of maintain its valuation,

You know, I was like, then I look back on things and I'm like, okay. What is right and what is wrong? Like, outdoor voices, I certainly spend a ton on brand. And is, like, struggle to find an exit and struggle to sort of maintain its valuation,

50:10

away seems like it's gonna struggle as well as a result of COVID, maybe not necessarily like, you know, spending a lot on brand and not necessarily enough, like, as much on performance.

away seems like it's gonna struggle as well as a result of COVID, maybe not necessarily like, you know, spending a lot on brand and not necessarily enough, like, as much on performance.

50:18

And then I'm, like, you know what, like, all these brands that I really, like, Casper spent a ton on brand. Right? Like, all these beautiful, out of home acts, like, beautiful imagery. I see their TV commercials, and I'm like, did did you hire, like, Vincent then go to, like, create this. Yeah. This is fucking fantastic.

And then I'm, like, you know what, like, all these brands that I really, like, Casper spent a ton on brand. Right? Like, all these beautiful, out of home acts, like, beautiful imagery. I see their TV commercials, and I'm like, did did you hire, like, Vincent then go to, like, create this. Yeah. This is fucking fantastic.

50:33

Like, I wanna free freeze this ad, print it out, and hang it on my wall.

Like, I wanna free freeze this ad, print it out, and hang it on my wall.

50:38

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

50:39

Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, but then you have a hundred million dollar evaluation having raised four hundred million dollars. So, like,

Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, but then you have a hundred million dollar evaluation having raised four hundred million dollars. So, like,

50:46

you know,

you know,

50:48

are they right to be doing this? What, like, what is the outcome here?

are they right to be doing this? What, like, what is the outcome here?

50:52

Yeah. I mean,

Yeah. I mean,

50:54

it will be a really

it will be a really

50:57

it'll be an interesting case study, you know, in fifteen years to look back on it and, like, really look at what mattered. Cause

it'll be an interesting case study, you know, in fifteen years to look back on it and, like, really look at what mattered. Cause

51:04

because,

because,

51:05

I mean, just from how I've seen Native like Native has always been well, Nate native and I think hint did it really well too when I was there was,

I mean, just from how I've seen Native like Native has always been well, Nate native and I think hint did it really well too when I was there was,

51:14

like performance branding, which is you you build your brand equity on the back of your working media dollars.

like performance branding, which is you you build your brand equity on the back of your working media dollars.

51:20

Yeah. And,

Yeah. And,

51:22

like, I think,

like, I think,

51:24

native,

native,

51:25

you guys simplified the messaging a lot, which helped.

you guys simplified the messaging a lot, which helped.

51:29

That's why I like Black Wolf Nation as well as the company, the messaging is just simplified.

That's why I like Black Wolf Nation as well as the company, the messaging is just simplified.

51:34

At hint, we did the same thing.

At hint, we did the same thing.

51:37

But also to some extent, a lot of these products

But also to some extent, a lot of these products

51:41

provide convenience and an actual function They're also consumable,

provide convenience and an actual function They're also consumable,

51:46

which I think matters less than function, but they're very functional products.

which I think matters less than function, but they're very functional products.

51:51

And they have functional benefits to the consumer.

And they have functional benefits to the consumer.

51:55

Yeah.

Yeah.

51:55

And so as a result, like, the the work Like, I think you have to work a little less on the brand side because if you can show them the outcomes or the benefits of the outcomes.

And so as a result, like, the the work Like, I think you have to work a little less on the brand side because if you can show them the outcomes or the benefits of the outcomes.

52:05

Yeah. Then you just have a stickier

Yeah. Then you just have a stickier

52:07

brand.

brand.

52:09

Yeah. But that said, it will be interesting to see, like,

Yeah. But that said, it will be interesting to see, like,

52:12

I I also don't think, like, there's one path to doing it. That's applicable to everybody or or a right path. Yeah.

I I also don't think, like, there's one path to doing it. That's applicable to everybody or or a right path. Yeah.

52:21

Because

Because

52:22

also quite frankly,

also quite frankly,

52:23

I would also bet money that some of these companies that spend a lot on brand probably tried to do what you were doing at Native, but just didn't have the skill set to actually execute it. And so their pivot

I would also bet money that some of these companies that spend a lot on brand probably tried to do what you were doing at Native, but just didn't have the skill set to actually execute it. And so their pivot

52:34

was to whatever they ended up doing. Yeah.

was to whatever they ended up doing. Yeah.

52:38

You know? Yeah.

You know? Yeah.

52:39

Look, you know, it's really hard to build a performance based company that set that has five hundred million dollars in revenue.

Look, you know, it's really hard to build a performance based company that set that has five hundred million dollars in revenue.

52:45

But I I I think the only way to do that is once again investing in brand.

But I I I think the only way to do that is once again investing in brand.

52:49

But I'm not sure, like,

But I'm not sure, like,

52:51

like, brand marketing can get to a five hundred million dollar company. I'm just not sure it can get you to a fifty million dollar company. That's the crazy part. Like, I think we need, like, some of that performance in order to, like,

like, brand marketing can get to a five hundred million dollar company. I'm just not sure it can get you to a fifty million dollar company. That's the crazy part. Like, I think we need, like, some of that performance in order to, like,

53:02

like, almost like an airplane. Right? Like, you need some, energy to take on the road there. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

like, almost like an airplane. Right? Like, you need some, energy to take on the road there. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

53:08

It is really create, like,

It is really create, like,

53:10

it's crazy to think about what, like, what'll happen in this community. You know, I think about Harry's and the Edgewell,

it's crazy to think about what, like, what'll happen in this community. You know, I think about Harry's and the Edgewell,

53:16

like, the Edgewell thing.

like, the Edgewell thing.

53:18

And the FTC sort of saying, yeah, this isn't gonna happen.

And the FTC sort of saying, yeah, this isn't gonna happen.

53:22

You know, I don't know what Harry's does now. Like,

You know, I don't know what Harry's does now. Like,

53:25

P and G certainly can't acquire them. They're gonna have another antitrust problem, and P and G knows that and Harry's knows that.

P and G certainly can't acquire them. They're gonna have another antitrust problem, and P and G knows that and Harry's knows that.

53:30

I don't know how Billy feels because Billy's supposed to be acquired by P and G, you know, I don't know, the next few months or, you know, that's what's supposed to be That was supposed to start when we were

I don't know how Billy feels because Billy's supposed to be acquired by P and G, you know, I don't know, the next few months or, you know, that's what's supposed to be That was supposed to start when we were

53:40

boxing in New York.

boxing in New York.

53:41

That was a long time ago.

That was a long time ago.

53:43

That deal was supposed to, like, yeah, that deal, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

That deal was supposed to, like, yeah, that deal, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

53:48

And so, like, I I wonder what Harry's, like, you know, if I were sitting at, if I were, like, Jeff Randy and Harry's, I'd be like, you know, I built this amazing brand. Somebody else agreed to pay one point four billion dollars for it, and now I can't get this done. Like, what hap like, what is going on in this world? I know it must be crazy. Like, if Sprint and T Mobile can merge and so that there's only three phone carriers, If there's, like, if, you know, United can be merged with Continental and Delta with Northwest,

And so, like, I I wonder what Harry's, like, you know, if I were sitting at, if I were, like, Jeff Randy and Harry's, I'd be like, you know, I built this amazing brand. Somebody else agreed to pay one point four billion dollars for it, and now I can't get this done. Like, what hap like, what is going on in this world? I know it must be crazy. Like, if Sprint and T Mobile can merge and so that there's only three phone carriers, If there's, like, if, you know, United can be merged with Continental and Delta with Northwest,

54:16

why can't my DTC company

why can't my DTC company

54:19

sell to a strategic. I'm a direct consumer, new company that has launched in the last five years. And you're saying there's an interest concern here.

sell to a strategic. I'm a direct consumer, new company that has launched in the last five years. And you're saying there's an interest concern here.

54:26

It really blows my mind. I think it's it it sucks and it's also a compliment.

It really blows my mind. I think it's it it sucks and it's also a compliment.

54:31

Yeah. It it's certainly a compliment,

Yeah. It it's certainly a compliment,

54:32

and I respect their business immensely. I think, like, you know,

and I respect their business immensely. I think, like, you know,

54:38

like, our, our lives, both yours and mine, were made so much easier by virtue of the fact that, like, Andy Dunn and Jeff and Andy,

like, our, our lives, both yours and mine, were made so much easier by virtue of the fact that, like, Andy Dunn and Jeff and Andy,

54:46

from Harry sort of paved this path for us. Like, you know, Andy, like, were we gonna build a direct to consumer business online number? And he's like, what the fuck is that? And he's like, yeah, we're gonna spend a bunch of money marketing and didn't know how find it well and built, you know, pop up shops that other people are copying. And the Harry's guys are like, yeah, we're gonna take this direct to consumer business and we're gonna launch them to Target, and it's gonna be successful there. And,

from Harry sort of paved this path for us. Like, you know, Andy, like, were we gonna build a direct to consumer business online number? And he's like, what the fuck is that? And he's like, yeah, we're gonna spend a bunch of money marketing and didn't know how find it well and built, you know, pop up shops that other people are copying. And the Harry's guys are like, yeah, we're gonna take this direct to consumer business and we're gonna launch them to Target, and it's gonna be successful there. And,

55:07

you know, when when it came to, when it came to Native, I was like, great. I know exactly what to do. And to build a directory for your business, like, that Andy did. And then I'm gonna launch him to Target, like, that Andy did. Yeah. And, like, you know, Target was like, yeah, we know why this is we didn't have to convince Target. You know, Target was, yeah, I don't know why this is a good deal.

you know, when when it came to, when it came to Native, I was like, great. I know exactly what to do. And to build a directory for your business, like, that Andy did. And then I'm gonna launch him to Target, like, that Andy did. Yeah. And, like, you know, Target was like, yeah, we know why this is we didn't have to convince Target. You know, Target was, yeah, I don't know why this is a good deal.

55:25

Henry's has been taking a ton of market share. And, you know, native is now twelve percent of the deal over in sale carrier, thirteen percent. That's awesome. That was over a million dollars a week there.

Henry's has been taking a ton of market share. And, you know, native is now twelve percent of the deal over in sale carrier, thirteen percent. That's awesome. That was over a million dollars a week there.

55:35

And I'm just like,

And I'm just like,

55:36

I I'm like, we're walking in the footsteps of like giants.

I I'm like, we're walking in the footsteps of like giants.

55:41

And unfortunately, Andy Dunn didn't have the best outcome at Benobos.

And unfortunately, Andy Dunn didn't have the best outcome at Benobos.

55:44

I I think the outcome for Harry is too early to tell now.

I I think the outcome for Harry is too early to tell now.

55:48

You know, it's certainly made our lives a lot easier.

You know, it's certainly made our lives a lot easier.

55:51

Oh, totally. I think, like, one thing that always gets lost even back to the those press pieces slamming the founders One thing that always gets lost is, like, a lot of these people paved the way or created these movements.

Oh, totally. I think, like, one thing that always gets lost even back to the those press pieces slamming the founders One thing that always gets lost is, like, a lot of these people paved the way or created these movements.

56:05

Which is something to be appreciative of. And,

Which is something to be appreciative of. And,

56:08

you know, like it it like you said, it allows us to to have a job Yeah. Yeah. I I really think that, like,

you know, like it it like you said, it allows us to to have a job Yeah. Yeah. I I really think that, like,

56:16

sixty percent of this industry is, like, building your business and forty percent is getting the timing rate. Like, outdoor voices was a hot brand brought in Nikki from, like, Jay Cruz, their chairman, brought in. Somebody from, like, Nike, that was, like, president or something. They just didn't get the timing right of, like, when to when to find a home for that business.

sixty percent of this industry is, like, building your business and forty percent is getting the timing rate. Like, outdoor voices was a hot brand brought in Nikki from, like, Jay Cruz, their chairman, brought in. Somebody from, like, Nike, that was, like, president or something. They just didn't get the timing right of, like, when to when to find a home for that business.

56:34

And,

And,

56:36

same thing with Casper. Right? Like, a fantastic brand

same thing with Casper. Right? Like, a fantastic brand

56:39

absolute brand geniuses that created that.

absolute brand geniuses that created that.

56:42

Mhmm. You know, and, like, great operators as well. First month that they launched, they had a million dollars in revenue. They were sending out air mattress because they couldn't fulfill the orders. So, like, we're gonna send you this air mattress until we can get you a Casper mattress, you know, a sort of pioneered,

Mhmm. You know, and, like, great operators as well. First month that they launched, they had a million dollars in revenue. They were sending out air mattress because they couldn't fulfill the orders. So, like, we're gonna send you this air mattress until we can get you a Casper mattress, you know, a sort of pioneered,

56:57

out of home ads, particularly in New York. Like, I don't remember seeing simple ads until I saw Casper. No. Never. I think I was like, shit. All direct to consumer business are now doing this.

out of home ads, particularly in New York. Like, I don't remember seeing simple ads until I saw Casper. No. Never. I think I was like, shit. All direct to consumer business are now doing this.

57:06

And, like, just didn't find a home at the right time for that business.

And, like, just didn't find a home at the right time for that business.

57:10

Yeah.

Yeah.

57:13

Curious. Yeah. I want to put it through. Yeah. I know I know you committed to some ads this summer. What happens to those buyers? Do you know? Yeah. We're trying to, like, so Native had sort of agreed to, do some subway ads in New York. And, you know,

Curious. Yeah. I want to put it through. Yeah. I know I know you committed to some ads this summer. What happens to those buyers? Do you know? Yeah. We're trying to, like, so Native had sort of agreed to, do some subway ads in New York. And, you know,

57:28

dealer in sales pick up in, like,

dealer in sales pick up in, like,

57:31

you know, during the summer because it's warmer. And all of a sudden, you talk more about sweating and, you know, you're outside as opposed to what in in New York, it's, you know, twelve degrees your sweating was. You're walking the, like, you know, you're walking us. And so we'd, we wanted to buy some out of my home at like, they were pushing for, I don't remember exactly what time they were pushing for. And, you know, at the time, I was still in Native, but I pushed for, you know, the summer, which is now the worst time ever to run subway out because they're, so where ridership is down probably ninety percent.

you know, during the summer because it's warmer. And all of a sudden, you talk more about sweating and, you know, you're outside as opposed to what in in New York, it's, you know, twelve degrees your sweating was. You're walking the, like, you know, you're walking us. And so we'd, we wanted to buy some out of my home at like, they were pushing for, I don't remember exactly what time they were pushing for. And, you know, at the time, I was still in Native, but I pushed for, you know, the summer, which is now the worst time ever to run subway out because they're, so where ridership is down probably ninety percent.

57:59

And so we're trying to, like, push them out a little bit so that we can still get some traffic Like, you know,

And so we're trying to, like, push them out a little bit so that we can still get some traffic Like, you know,

58:06

you know, you agree to, like, a a price and you're, like, okay, this is what the CPM backs out to based on the number of riders that somebody has. And then you don't agree to a CPM price, you know, you don't say, okay, you're gonna have this many riders Right. Right. Right. Number of dollars. You say this is the price based on your historic traffic. And,

you know, you agree to, like, a a price and you're, like, okay, this is what the CPM backs out to based on the number of riders that somebody has. And then you don't agree to a CPM price, you know, you don't say, okay, you're gonna have this many riders Right. Right. Right. Number of dollars. You say this is the price based on your historic traffic. And,

58:22

that, like, the I I was, like, I had terrible timing there. I certainly couldn't foresee yet, but, like, just absolutely terrible. Well, yeah. I mean, it's nothing you could've Yeah. It's nothing you could've predicted.

that, like, the I I was, like, I had terrible timing there. I certainly couldn't foresee yet, but, like, just absolutely terrible. Well, yeah. I mean, it's nothing you could've Yeah. It's nothing you could've predicted.

58:33

Yeah. I want I was pretty excited though.

Yeah. I want I was pretty excited though.

58:36

Yeah. It was, I was super excited too because I I went to run all these, like, fun ads that would say, like, what stinks down here,

Yeah. It was, I was super excited too because I I went to run all these, like, fun ads that would say, like, what stinks down here,

58:43

not you if you use native deodorant,

not you if you use native deodorant,

58:45

and those subway guys were like, you have to be careful because You can't make fun of the subway while you're running these at like, it's you're you have to buy the inventory from us. You can't, like, be an asshole to us like, we're not gonna let that happen. You know? You could be like Yeah. Displace a shithole. Use native deodorant.

and those subway guys were like, you have to be careful because You can't make fun of the subway while you're running these at like, it's you're you have to buy the inventory from us. You can't, like, be an asshole to us like, we're not gonna let that happen. You know? You could be like Yeah. Displace a shithole. Use native deodorant.

59:02

Avoid the rats. Use native deodorant. Yeah. They would not have been Exactly. I think the what states not you use native deodorant? Like, I think that would have been okay with them.

Avoid the rats. Use native deodorant. Yeah. They would not have been Exactly. I think the what states not you use native deodorant? Like, I think that would have been okay with them.

59:11

But, yeah, I mean, like, it is crazy how, like, add inventory has sort of changed.

But, yeah, I mean, like, it is crazy how, like, add inventory has sort of changed.

59:16

And, you know, when I talk to people who are,

And, you know, when I talk to people who are,

59:19

are advertising on Facebook these days, they're just like prices are down and substantial. Like CPMs are down because

are advertising on Facebook these days, they're just like prices are down and substantial. Like CPMs are down because

59:24

Marriott and United's

Marriott and United's

59:26

and,

and,

59:27

you know, Toyota's of the world just aren't advertising on there now. Yeah.

you know, Toyota's of the world just aren't advertising on there now. Yeah.

59:31

Yeah. Actually yeah. Totally. And then the ones that

Yeah. Actually yeah. Totally. And then the ones that

59:35

you know, when all the big agencies pulled out, then all the really savvy people like us went in and started,

you know, when all the big agencies pulled out, then all the really savvy people like us went in and started,

59:43

you know, creating these campaigns.

you know, creating these campaigns.

59:45

Yeah. And the overall inventory got super cheap.

Yeah. And the overall inventory got super cheap.

59:48

Yeah. I remember looking twenty seventeen, Mark Prichard, who's a chief brand officer P and G, like, went on the Wall Street Journal, and he's like, we're cutting our Facebook ad spend by a hundred million dollars because Facebook, just doesn't provide the return on investment that it should. And I was, you know, I was stating they're like, this is pre acquisition. I was like, fantastic.

Yeah. I remember looking twenty seventeen, Mark Prichard, who's a chief brand officer P and G, like, went on the Wall Street Journal, and he's like, we're cutting our Facebook ad spend by a hundred million dollars because Facebook, just doesn't provide the return on investment that it should. And I was, you know, I was stating they're like, this is pre acquisition. I was like, fantastic.

01:00:05

You you have no idea what you're missing. It's fantastic out here if you're, like, you know, you're savvy about running Facebook ads. So, like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. It is bad. It is bad. Don't worry about it. Stop spending. Meanwhile, I'll go ahead and increase my

You you have no idea what you're missing. It's fantastic out here if you're, like, you know, you're savvy about running Facebook ads. So, like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. It is bad. It is bad. Don't worry about it. Stop spending. Meanwhile, I'll go ahead and increase my

01:00:19

Yeah. Like, that's what happens in auction based, platforms.

Yeah. Like, that's what happens in auction based, platforms.

01:00:22

Totally. If somebody was gonna start, you know, I I know we're running overtime already. If someone's gonna start a new business today, What is the best way to learn about digital advertising? I feel like, you know, you're an expert at it. You were doing it. It hit water.

Totally. If somebody was gonna start, you know, I I know we're running overtime already. If someone's gonna start a new business today, What is the best way to learn about digital advertising? I feel like, you know, you're an expert at it. You were doing it. It hit water.

01:00:35

By the way, I, you know, I totally spoke to Kara earlier this week, and she was like, we ran a Super Bowl commercial,

By the way, I, you know, I totally spoke to Kara earlier this week, and she was like, we ran a Super Bowl commercial,

01:00:41

and it cost us under a million dollars to run that Super Bowl commercial.

and it cost us under a million dollars to run that Super Bowl commercial.

01:00:45

And, I was like, well, well, when you said you focused mostly on,

And, I was like, well, well, when you said you focused mostly on,

01:00:48

performance ads, I was like, okay, it sounds like that's changed now. Super commercial primarily performance. So it's also interesting to hear that costs under a million dollars.

performance ads, I was like, okay, it sounds like that's changed now. Super commercial primarily performance. So it's also interesting to hear that costs under a million dollars.

01:00:57

Like, you know, you've run acquisition in a bunch of companies. You're advising a bunch of companies when it comes to acquisition. You've run your fair share of Facebook ads. Certainly admire your, like, expertise there. What's the first step that somebody should do? If they're cold and they're working at you know,

Like, you know, you've run acquisition in a bunch of companies. You're advising a bunch of companies when it comes to acquisition. You've run your fair share of Facebook ads. Certainly admire your, like, expertise there. What's the first step that somebody should do? If they're cold and they're working at you know,

01:01:12

I don't know, Johnson and Johnson, or they're working, there are, like, a paralegal somewhere, and they wanna run this direct to consumer business. Where should they go to learn about direct consumer advertising?

I don't know, Johnson and Johnson, or they're working, there are, like, a paralegal somewhere, and they wanna run this direct to consumer business. Where should they go to learn about direct consumer advertising?

01:01:24

Or should they It knows to be

Or should they It knows to be

01:01:26

Yeah. Yeah. You can definitely text me.

Yeah. Yeah. You can definitely text me.

01:01:30

The

The

01:01:31

the main thing, like, I I had always tried to find, like, whether it was at one site that was really good at educating you or, like, the,

the main thing, like, I I had always tried to find, like, whether it was at one site that was really good at educating you or, like, the,

01:01:39

you know, that one course or whatever, but there it just doesn't exist. And also this world changes so fast that there's really nothing that can constantly keep up. I found that for me, the best tool is,

you know, that one course or whatever, but there it just doesn't exist. And also this world changes so fast that there's really nothing that can constantly keep up. I found that for me, the best tool is,

01:01:51

like, I just started building a group of people that I constantly talk to. So,

like, I just started building a group of people that I constantly talk to. So,

01:01:58

you know, whether it's, like, these are people most of them initially were just actual, like, acquisition people.

you know, whether it's, like, these are people most of them initially were just actual, like, acquisition people.

01:02:05

So people, like, you know, the head of marketing at, like, third love or Madison Reed or some of these like big D to C brands. Yeah. And then and then I just started figuring out that I could use Twitter to network

So people, like, you know, the head of marketing at, like, third love or Madison Reed or some of these like big D to C brands. Yeah. And then and then I just started figuring out that I could use Twitter to network

01:02:17

And now now, like, I'll talk to people who are running, you know, tens of millions of dollars of ads all the way to people who are you know, doing a thousand dollars a month in sales, and they're really proud of it. But I it's easy for me to just kinda learn through seeing what other people are doing. And then the other thing I'll do is just you know, like, stock the really, really good brands and see exactly how they do it, whether it's their looking at their creative, you know, there's things you pick up. Like, if you go to know, probably even natives. If you if you go to natives like Facebook ads library, if eighty percent of the creative looks the same, that's the creative that's doing really good. And so you just, like, you do that.

And now now, like, I'll talk to people who are running, you know, tens of millions of dollars of ads all the way to people who are you know, doing a thousand dollars a month in sales, and they're really proud of it. But I it's easy for me to just kinda learn through seeing what other people are doing. And then the other thing I'll do is just you know, like, stock the really, really good brands and see exactly how they do it, whether it's their looking at their creative, you know, there's things you pick up. Like, if you go to know, probably even natives. If you if you go to natives like Facebook ads library, if eighty percent of the creative looks the same, that's the creative that's doing really good. And so you just, like, you do that.

01:02:53

I constantly have a list where I'll go through, you know, the top, like, fifty or sixty brands and just see what are all their landing pages looking like now? If I identify similarities, it's because it works.

I constantly have a list where I'll go through, you know, the top, like, fifty or sixty brands and just see what are all their landing pages looking like now? If I identify similarities, it's because it works.

01:03:08

You know, I just I learned by observation. So I I I like looking at what other people doing and then figuring out the why and then basically taking the why and trying to make that with my own version.

You know, I just I learned by observation. So I I I like looking at what other people doing and then figuring out the why and then basically taking the why and trying to make that with my own version.

01:03:19

Yeah. That's a great point. I think, like,

Yeah. That's a great point. I think, like,

01:03:22

you know, someone made fun of us for, like, having a landing page that looked like Harry's,

you know, someone made fun of us for, like, having a landing page that looked like Harry's,

01:03:27

and I was, like,

and I was, like,

01:03:30

you're you're using this as, like, an insult and I pick it I picked up what you said and put it on myself as a badge. It was like a compliment. Yeah. I'm like, think. Yeah. We didn't spend the money to do it, but we looked at other people and we emulated their best. And, you know, if you look at, like,

you're you're using this as, like, an insult and I pick it I picked up what you said and put it on myself as a badge. It was like a compliment. Yeah. I'm like, think. Yeah. We didn't spend the money to do it, but we looked at other people and we emulated their best. And, you know, if you look at, like,

01:03:44

a lot of these brands that spend,

a lot of these brands that spend,

01:03:46

you know, millions of millions of dollars a month, like,

you know, millions of millions of dollars a month, like,

01:03:50

we can we don't have to do that that testing. They've done the testing for us. Yeah. For sure. We just have to see what, you know, they've come out with.

we can we don't have to do that that testing. They've done the testing for us. Yeah. For sure. We just have to see what, you know, they've come out with.

01:04:00

Yeah, I'm a big fan of, like, work smarter, not harder.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of, like, work smarter, not harder.

01:04:04

So agree with, like, sort of looking at com of looking at competitors are actually best in best in class,

So agree with, like, sort of looking at com of looking at competitors are actually best in best in class,

01:04:10

sites to see what they're doing really well. When you said you developed like a network of people on Twitter and presumably Slack and communicate with them, and some of them are spending, you know, a thousand dollars and some of them are spending ten million dollars a year on Facebook ads. How does that work to help you?

sites to see what they're doing really well. When you said you developed like a network of people on Twitter and presumably Slack and communicate with them, and some of them are spending, you know, a thousand dollars and some of them are spending ten million dollars a year on Facebook ads. How does that work to help you?

01:04:28

It helps me in a few different ways. So, like, you know, if I know that

It helps me in a few different ways. So, like, you know, if I know that

01:04:34

you know, if I if I know that, for example, I'm helping out a telemedicine brand,

you know, if I if I know that, for example, I'm helping out a telemedicine brand,

01:04:40

you know, onboard new new customers,

you know, onboard new new customers,

01:04:43

and their,

and their,

01:04:45

a part of their customer journey requires, like, going through insurance,

a part of their customer journey requires, like, going through insurance,

01:04:49

then

then

01:04:50

I have a friend who runs marketing at another telemedicine brand for women where they have that whole kind of funnel and they've gone through that whole process.

I have a friend who runs marketing at another telemedicine brand for women where they have that whole kind of funnel and they've gone through that whole process.

01:04:59

So for me, it can be as easy as, you know, texting him and and asking a question.

So for me, it can be as easy as, you know, texting him and and asking a question.

01:05:04

In other cases, it could be, like,

In other cases, it could be, like,

01:05:07

you know, I I needed a Shopify developer

you know, I I needed a Shopify developer

01:05:11

two months ago.

two months ago.

01:05:12

And so I I had asked a couple of friends and right away, they were just like, oh, yeah. Here use this guide is the best. Yeah. And,

And so I I had asked a couple of friends and right away, they were just like, oh, yeah. Here use this guide is the best. Yeah. And,

01:05:20

yeah, I I usually just learn that way.

yeah, I I usually just learn that way.

01:05:23

I'm a big, like, questions person. My theory initially, I think the reason that it kicked off was because I don't really have a formal education

I'm a big, like, questions person. My theory initially, I think the reason that it kicked off was because I don't really have a formal education

01:05:31

in anything. And so my thought process was that

in anything. And so my thought process was that

01:05:35

And I also wasn't a big reader. So my thought process was basically like instead of instead of going to,

And I also wasn't a big reader. So my thought process was basically like instead of instead of going to,

01:05:43

like, books, and instead of going to college, if I just surround myself with the people who write these books and I get the information first,

like, books, and instead of going to college, if I just surround myself with the people who write these books and I get the information first,

01:05:51

then I should be in a good enough position.

then I should be in a good enough position.

01:05:54

Yeah. I I I think that's absolutely right.

Yeah. I I I think that's absolutely right.

01:05:58

You know, there there's two things I'd say. Look, I have a formal education, and I can tell you I, like, never use it on a single day,

You know, there there's two things I'd say. Look, I have a formal education, and I can tell you I, like, never use it on a single day,

01:06:05

unless,

unless,

01:06:06

like, you know, unless someone's saying something, like,

like, you know, unless someone's saying something, like,

01:06:09

requiring me to do something that I don't wanna do and Yeah. You're a Harvard lawyer. I'm a lawyer and, no, I don't have to do this.

requiring me to do something that I don't wanna do and Yeah. You're a Harvard lawyer. I'm a lawyer and, no, I don't have to do this.

01:06:15

I'm not your slave.

I'm not your slave.

01:06:17

And so I think that's the only time I use it. And I think, you know, you were talking about networks. In San Francisco, when I started doing what we were growing native and were really small as I started investing like this e commerce brunch. So like every one Sunday a month, I would get like,

And so I think that's the only time I use it. And I think, you know, you were talking about networks. In San Francisco, when I started doing what we were growing native and were really small as I started investing like this e commerce brunch. So like every one Sunday a month, I would get like,

01:06:32

ten people who are all in e commerce into a room. And we would talk about, like, you know, the problems that we were having from, like, an operations perspective,

ten people who are all in e commerce into a room. And we would talk about, like, you know, the problems that we were having from, like, an operations perspective,

01:06:40

a personnel perspective, and really a marketing perspective, like, what is working from you for you guys on a marketing perspective? Where are you spending money? You know, it, like, that that network really helped me understand the shift from, like, desktop to mobile. From, you know, mobile static images to mobile video,

a personnel perspective, and really a marketing perspective, like, what is working from you for you guys on a marketing perspective? Where are you spending money? You know, it, like, that that network really helped me understand the shift from, like, desktop to mobile. From, you know, mobile static images to mobile video,

01:06:55

landing pages, colors that would work,

landing pages, colors that would work,

01:06:58

how important creative was versus headline,

how important creative was versus headline,

01:07:00

you know, how important the,

you know, how important the,

01:07:02

you know, the display image was before it started a a video, like all that kind of stuff. And,

you know, the display image was before it started a a video, like all that kind of stuff. And,

01:07:08

Like, that community, like, aside from the fact that it was really, like, easy to, voice my concerns to other founders who came to the brunch, it was super inspirational. I remember, like, coming out of those brunches being like,

Like, that community, like, aside from the fact that it was really, like, easy to, voice my concerns to other founders who came to the brunch, it was super inspirational. I remember, like, coming out of those brunches being like,

01:07:19

it's Sunday at two PM. I have nine hours of work to do today because all of these guys had such good ideas. I need to go start executing some of them. Yeah. In,

it's Sunday at two PM. I have nine hours of work to do today because all of these guys had such good ideas. I need to go start executing some of them. Yeah. In,

01:07:28

myself,

myself,

01:07:29

Scott Swanson, who I don't think you've met, but he actually used to work at the hustle.

Scott Swanson, who I don't think you've met, but he actually used to work at the hustle.

01:07:34

Me, Scott, the out of market thing at,

Me, Scott, the out of market thing at,

01:07:37

at Third Love, Head of Madison Reed,

at Third Love, Head of Madison Reed,

01:07:40

when he was at stitch fix, we would all get lunch once a month, and and sometimes we would come out for these meetings. And we all have pretty much the same customer,

when he was at stitch fix, we would all get lunch once a month, and and sometimes we would come out for these meetings. And we all have pretty much the same customer,

01:07:49

but we were not peating. So it was great. And,

but we were not peating. So it was great. And,

01:07:52

we would come out in these meetings, and Scott and I would take, like, an idea that we discussed over lunch,

we would come out in these meetings, and Scott and I would take, like, an idea that we discussed over lunch,

01:07:58

and it would make us an extra hundred grand the next weekend.

and it would make us an extra hundred grand the next weekend.

01:08:02

Yeah. It's crazy. But it totally did help with, like, like, you know, third love and Madison Reed,

Yeah. It's crazy. But it totally did help with, like, like, you know, third love and Madison Reed,

01:08:10

did a ton in podcasts and TV. So, like, we learned a lot about that before we stepped into that.

did a ton in podcasts and TV. So, like, we learned a lot about that before we stepped into that.

01:08:15

It helped us with figuring out things like the right agencies,

It helped us with figuring out things like the right agencies,

01:08:18

you know, who are the right buyers,

you know, who are the right buyers,

01:08:21

all the way down to, like, you know, oh, how you know, we're hiring we're trying to hire a head of retention. How do we go about hiring that? Or, you know, we have this issue on the team where this person thinks they're supposed to be doing email and affiliate, but, like, random issues.

all the way down to, like, you know, oh, how you know, we're hiring we're trying to hire a head of retention. How do we go about hiring that? Or, you know, we have this issue on the team where this person thinks they're supposed to be doing email and affiliate, but, like, random issues.

01:08:36

But it it helps to have that group where, you know, the chances of one of them having already dealt with that issue is pretty high. Yeah. That's a that's a great point. It's like, your personal, like, yelp where you have a bunch of people who have had some experiences.

But it it helps to have that group where, you know, the chances of one of them having already dealt with that issue is pretty high. Yeah. That's a that's a great point. It's like, your personal, like, yelp where you have a bunch of people who have had some experiences.

01:08:48

And it's just like brainstorming in a way where sometimes you need to get, other people's perspective who are doing the same thing you're doing, although it's in different industry to really open up your eyes. For me, we had like a guy from with Eric who runs nectar mattresses,

And it's just like brainstorming in a way where sometimes you need to get, other people's perspective who are doing the same thing you're doing, although it's in different industry to really open up your eyes. For me, we had like a guy from with Eric who runs nectar mattresses,

01:09:02

or it's called like nectar, I guess.

or it's called like nectar, I guess.

01:09:04

And, you know, I saw his business go from, like, zero dollars to north of two hundred million dollars. And I was just like, what the fuck is going on over there? Like, every month we'd come in, I'd be like, What the fuck how is your growth that huge?

And, you know, I saw his business go from, like, zero dollars to north of two hundred million dollars. And I was just like, what the fuck is going on over there? Like, every month we'd come in, I'd be like, What the fuck how is your growth that huge?

01:09:16

And it was really helpful. And and so when I was looking at marketing perspective, I'd go to him and then when I know, need to discuss a small team issue. You know, I talked to the guys at Vinebox or JapanCrate or somebody else who was there that was a small, but like sort of, growing, like, struggling well and, like, had a lot of insight. And, yeah, I think those networks are, like, underappreciated.

And it was really helpful. And and so when I was looking at marketing perspective, I'd go to him and then when I know, need to discuss a small team issue. You know, I talked to the guys at Vinebox or JapanCrate or somebody else who was there that was a small, but like sort of, growing, like, struggling well and, like, had a lot of insight. And, yeah, I think those networks are, like, underappreciated.

01:09:36

They're, like, sort of, below the radar. It's a total advantage too. Yeah. It really is. You know, you're talking about how you guys had different businesses about how, like, certain things would work. I don't under like, there needs to be a private equity firm that sort of buys up a bunch of these businesses and spreads. Like, everyone's biggest cost or one of their biggest costs is certainly customer acquisition. It's gotta be in the top five or probably the top too. Oh, definitely. Yeah.

They're, like, sort of, below the radar. It's a total advantage too. Yeah. It really is. You know, you're talking about how you guys had different businesses about how, like, certain things would work. I don't under like, there needs to be a private equity firm that sort of buys up a bunch of these businesses and spreads. Like, everyone's biggest cost or one of their biggest costs is certainly customer acquisition. It's gotta be in the top five or probably the top too. Oh, definitely. Yeah.

01:10:01

You know, someone needs to spread this around because you're you're right. The, like, the customer who is a native customer is probably a hint customer.

You know, someone needs to spread this around because you're you're right. The, like, the customer who is a native customer is probably a hint customer.

01:10:07

And the customer who's a hint customer is probably an outdoor voices customer.

And the customer who's a hint customer is probably an outdoor voices customer.

01:10:11

And we're all paying Facebook to sort of, like, acquire these customers as opposed to saying, what? We have this one email address that would probably, plan on all three of us,

And we're all paying Facebook to sort of, like, acquire these customers as opposed to saying, what? We have this one email address that would probably, plan on all three of us,

01:10:20

while we're trying to share this resource.

while we're trying to share this resource.

01:10:22

Yeah. There, I I've thought so much about this. There was actually a company

Yeah. There, I I've thought so much about this. There was actually a company

01:10:26

that I think the furthest they got as, like,

that I think the furthest they got as, like,

01:10:31

like, as us operators were trying to do that, the furthest that ever got was, like, sharing Facebook audiences, like look alikes, among swapping look alikes, among brands.

like, as us operators were trying to do that, the furthest that ever got was, like, sharing Facebook audiences, like look alikes, among swapping look alikes, among brands.

01:10:40

But everybody got super

But everybody got super

01:10:43

well, one people got really protective about their email list, especially if it was a big list. Everybody was really cautious.

well, one people got really protective about their email list, especially if it was a big list. Everybody was really cautious.

01:10:49

And then secondly,

And then secondly,

01:10:51

anything from, like, a bigger company that had,

anything from, like, a bigger company that had,

01:10:55

you know, I would say, like, more than fifty people. They naturally had, like, a chief technology or chief privacy or chief legal, and that's where it gets really tough.

you know, I would say, like, more than fifty people. They naturally had, like, a chief technology or chief privacy or chief legal, and that's where it gets really tough.

01:11:07

So it it is tough, but if somebody could figure that out, or you know what's another one? I think I'd sent you a screenshot one time, but it's it's if you could develop a Shopify app, the hustles, like, the perfect audience for this, a Shopify app that imagine if, like, I was at hand and you were at Native, and it was one landing page, you check out on the landing page, and it pushes the order out to both hint and native. So on the back end, it gets fulfilled like normal order. And on the front end, the customer pays once, puts their information in once, and it basically goes out to two stores rather than checking out on my site and I send you an Excel sheet or vice versa?

So it it is tough, but if somebody could figure that out, or you know what's another one? I think I'd sent you a screenshot one time, but it's it's if you could develop a Shopify app, the hustles, like, the perfect audience for this, a Shopify app that imagine if, like, I was at hand and you were at Native, and it was one landing page, you check out on the landing page, and it pushes the order out to both hint and native. So on the back end, it gets fulfilled like normal order. And on the front end, the customer pays once, puts their information in once, and it basically goes out to two stores rather than checking out on my site and I send you an Excel sheet or vice versa?

01:11:44

You're saying so, look, there'd be one checkout, like, one website that sells both of our products?

You're saying so, look, there'd be one checkout, like, one website that sells both of our products?

01:11:50

No. So,

No. So,

01:11:51

well, I yeah. It could be that, but it's more so like,

well, I yeah. It could be that, but it's more so like,

01:11:55

you know, the reason a lot of people don't do, like, things like, like, acquisition

you know, the reason a lot of people don't do, like, things like, like, acquisition

01:12:00

collabs is because,

collabs is because,

01:12:03

it's like, well, who owns that customer, technically? Is

it's like, well, who owns that customer, technically? Is

01:12:06

it on my store that they check out or your store. And then if it's if it's just another site like Amazon, then Amazon owns it. So in this case, everybody wins. Yeah. I I think you're absolutely right. I think the first step to getting there

it on my store that they check out or your store. And then if it's if it's just another site like Amazon, then Amazon owns it. So in this case, everybody wins. Yeah. I I think you're absolutely right. I think the first step to getting there

01:12:19

is actually, like, the the worst step, which is, like,

is actually, like, the the worst step, which is, like,

01:12:24

the private equity company coming in and buying five of these businesses and start sharing, like, because once they prove that, hey, this kind of stuff works, we can bring your marketing costs down thirty five percent and that's your biggest P and L, like, that's the biggest line item you have in terms of expenses.

the private equity company coming in and buying five of these businesses and start sharing, like, because once they prove that, hey, this kind of stuff works, we can bring your marketing costs down thirty five percent and that's your biggest P and L, like, that's the biggest line item you have in terms of expenses.

01:12:38

Now all of a sudden,

Now all of a sudden,

01:12:40

everyone's gonna be like, well, this for, like, this company's got a competitive advantage, and we have to figure that out. I think there are certain companies that are I would be surprised if atomic and like Kim's and hers don't share that kind of stuff. And I'd be surprised if, like, you know, the new Jim Lane isn't trying to do that as well.

everyone's gonna be like, well, this for, like, this company's got a competitive advantage, and we have to figure that out. I think there are certain companies that are I would be surprised if atomic and like Kim's and hers don't share that kind of stuff. And I'd be surprised if, like, you know, the new Jim Lane isn't trying to do that as well.

01:12:55

Yeah. It is like,

Yeah. It is like,

01:12:57

I, like, no one has done it well. And, like,

I, like, no one has done it well. And, like,

01:13:00

you know, they should A lot of people are attempting Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of people attempting it. Like, a bat one Facebook would share interests with you. Like, I'd look at natives'

you know, they should A lot of people are attempting Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of people attempting it. Like, a bat one Facebook would share interests with you. Like, I'd look at natives'

01:13:08

audience, and I'd be like, what are the other things you like? And I'm like, great. Oh, these other, like, the, like, sixty percent of our customers also liked honest. And I was like, this doesn't look like, you know That's how I would find a lot of, like, media partnerships.

audience, and I'd be like, what are the other things you like? And I'm like, great. Oh, these other, like, the, like, sixty percent of our customers also liked honest. And I was like, this doesn't look like, you know That's how I would find a lot of, like, media partnerships.

01:13:20

We saw. Yeah. Yeah. I think the first time I ever did it, I was it was, like, the skin was in the top five, and I was, like, yeah, we're running placements with the skin.

We saw. Yeah. Yeah. I think the first time I ever did it, I was it was, like, the skin was in the top five, and I was, like, yeah, we're running placements with the skin.

01:13:27

Yeah. Yeah. It was great. And, like, I was just, like, we have the exact same audience. And we, but, like, the honest, honest co and Native had the same audience, then we have to each of us has to acquire our own customers in kindly. It doesn't make any sense. It's just the only, like, you know, it's it it is what it is right now, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was great. And, like, I was just, like, we have the exact same audience. And we, but, like, the honest, honest co and Native had the same audience, then we have to each of us has to acquire our own customers in kindly. It doesn't make any sense. It's just the only, like, you know, it's it it is what it is right now, I guess. Yeah.

01:13:45

Awesome. Nick, really appreciate your time. We're way over already. So thanks so much for being on this,

Awesome. Nick, really appreciate your time. We're way over already. So thanks so much for being on this,

01:13:50

on this episode. If people wanna follow you. If they want to follow your, like, you know, the community that you've created,

on this episode. If people wanna follow you. If they want to follow your, like, you know, the community that you've created,

01:13:56

where should they text you, where should they follow you on, you know,

where should they text you, where should they follow you on, you know,

01:14:00

on Twitter

on Twitter

01:14:02

you can text me at nine one seven nine zero five two three four zero, or you can follow me and tweet me on Twitter at mister Sherman.

you can text me at nine one seven nine zero five two three four zero, or you can follow me and tweet me on Twitter at mister Sherman.

01:14:10

Fantastic. Nick, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate this. I always love chatting with you. I feel like you and I have this same perspective of, like, performance marketing of direct to consumer businesses. Yep. And there isn't all this, like, hoopla bullshit.

Fantastic. Nick, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate this. I always love chatting with you. I feel like you and I have this same perspective of, like, performance marketing of direct to consumer businesses. Yep. And there isn't all this, like, hoopla bullshit.

01:14:23

Like, you know, there there's no, like, you don't put yourself out there like your royalty. You're like, look, I'm a I'm a commoner fighting the good fight. Exactly. And it makes it a lot easier to to chat with you. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks so much for your

Like, you know, there there's no, like, you don't put yourself out there like your royalty. You're like, look, I'm a I'm a commoner fighting the good fight. Exactly. And it makes it a lot easier to to chat with you. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks so much for your

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