00:00

I don't know if you know this, but Warren Buffett made like ninety seven percent of his wealth after the age of fifty five.

I don't know if you know this, but Warren Buffett made like ninety seven percent of his wealth after the age of fifty five.

00:06

Is so so it all happens very slowly. He started in his twenties or whatever. And he wasn't really well known until the nineties. And the same thing happened with us where we didn't really talk about what we did. People would meet us and they'd be like, oh, you're some schmoes from Victoria who owns some digital agency.

Is so so it all happens very slowly. He started in his twenties or whatever. And he wasn't really well known until the nineties. And the same thing happened with us where we didn't really talk about what we did. People would meet us and they'd be like, oh, you're some schmoes from Victoria who owns some digital agency.

00:22

You seem to own all these really boring businesses, you know, whatever. And so It requires being kind of underestimated and dismissed and playing a very boring

You seem to own all these really boring businesses, you know, whatever. And so It requires being kind of underestimated and dismissed and playing a very boring

00:30

game while watching everyone else go and make you know, tens of millions, billions of dollars, taking risk in startups.

game while watching everyone else go and make you know, tens of millions, billions of dollars, taking risk in startups.

00:38

Meanwhile, we're just going, how do we take, you know, a hundred grand and make ten, fifteen, twenty k a year on that money and just keep compounding. And so, basically, the mental model was take seventy percent of our profits and constantly reinvest,

Meanwhile, we're just going, how do we take, you know, a hundred grand and make ten, fifteen, twenty k a year on that money and just keep compounding. And so, basically, the mental model was take seventy percent of our profits and constantly reinvest,

00:54

take the other thirty percent, live a nice life, and that number went down over time. And, yeah, you do that for seventeen years, and it turns into a, you know, a big Number.

take the other thirty percent, live a nice life, and that number went down over time. And, yeah, you do that for seventeen years, and it turns into a, you know, a big Number.

01:10

And something that you wanted to talk about today was whether it's better to own one hundred percent of something and bootstrap it or to give up equity for the partners whether that's for sweat equity or money or money,

And something that you wanted to talk about today was whether it's better to own one hundred percent of something and bootstrap it or to give up equity for the partners whether that's for sweat equity or money or money,

01:22

but you, we were talking about that. And I asked my audience

but you, we were talking about that. And I asked my audience

01:27

companies that were bootstrapped and quite big. And there's a few that are doing billions, a year in revenue. And I know notice two commonalities.

companies that were bootstrapped and quite big. And there's a few that are doing billions, a year in revenue. And I know notice two commonalities.

01:34

One, A lot of the things that were bootstrap to be really big, they were things that were easy to take bank loans against. So it's a lot of restaurant stuff. So maybe they took, like, loans against some equipment or they took loans against,

One, A lot of the things that were bootstrap to be really big, they were things that were easy to take bank loans against. So it's a lot of restaurant stuff. So maybe they took, like, loans against some equipment or they took loans against,

01:48

a building they owned, things like that. The second thing was

a building they owned, things like that. The second thing was

01:52

I've noticed that there's a lot of agencies that were bootstrapped and became pretty substantial sized agencies or agencies or service based businesses, so like recruiting

I've noticed that there's a lot of agencies that were bootstrapped and became pretty substantial sized agencies or agencies or service based businesses, so like recruiting

02:01

companies,

companies,

02:03

IT services,

IT services,

02:05

things like that, where it's basically you bill out people's time for a hundred dollars and you charge three hundred dollars or something like that.

things like that, where it's basically you bill out people's time for a hundred dollars and you charge three hundred dollars or something like that.

02:13

Well, think about it. You don't need, especially if you're a young person and you can cut you've got enough money to live for a year. You can go and start an agency because at the end of the day, it's you go and sell. You win a contract as as you win the contract, you go and find a developer, or you do the work yourself. And then before you know it, your cash flowing, and you're always able to hire people

Well, think about it. You don't need, especially if you're a young person and you can cut you've got enough money to live for a year. You can go and start an agency because at the end of the day, it's you go and sell. You win a contract as as you win the contract, you go and find a developer, or you do the work yourself. And then before you know it, your cash flowing, and you're always able to hire people

02:33

just in time for the work. And so at the end of the day, there's really no burn, and it's very capital efficient. And you don't need,

just in time for the work. And so at the end of the day, there's really no burn, and it's very capital efficient. And you don't need,

02:40

don't even need an office anymore. I mean, we we almost never had an office. And, oh, you know, we I over time, we had, you know, a couple small ones or whatever, But the big fuck up a lot of these big agencies make is they start starting like these fancy humongous five million dollar offices in New York and San Francisco and Spain and, you know, whatever.

don't even need an office anymore. I mean, we we almost never had an office. And, oh, you know, we I over time, we had, you know, a couple small ones or whatever, But the big fuck up a lot of these big agencies make is they start starting like these fancy humongous five million dollar offices in New York and San Francisco and Spain and, you know, whatever.

03:00

They're they're great businesses if you run them right. And how many people work at Metalab now?

They're they're great businesses if you run them right. And how many people work at Metalab now?

03:06

I think it's about a hundred and seventy. How often do you say to yourself? I'm not sure if the the headache is the headache of having a hundred and seventy employees is always worth it.

I think it's about a hundred and seventy. How often do you say to yourself? I'm not sure if the the headache is the headache of having a hundred and seventy employees is always worth it.

03:17

Well, it's very abstracted for me. Right? I haven't been in the business for five or six years. And the way we run tiny now is that we meet with the CEO once a year. And otherwise,

Well, it's very abstracted for me. Right? I haven't been in the business for five or six years. And the way we run tiny now is that we meet with the CEO once a year. And otherwise,

03:28

they check-in whenever they need help with anything. And so when I was running it, like first, it's exhilarating. Running an agency is awesome. When you're starting out, you get a seat at the table and all these places you don't deserve to be. Right? I was like a twenty two year old Pipsqueak

they check-in whenever they need help with anything. And so when I was running it, like first, it's exhilarating. Running an agency is awesome. When you're starting out, you get a seat at the table and all these places you don't deserve to be. Right? I was like a twenty two year old Pipsqueak

03:43

and I was meeting the founders of Pinterest and slack and, you know, all these amazing places. And they were asking me for my opinion. Right? It was it was crazy. But at a certain point, you get so exhausted you're making a good amount of money. You don't wanna get on a plane to San Francisco every second day to go and sell. And at that point, you know, it starts to become a much more intensive business. And for me, personally, I don't enjoy running businesses after about fifteen or twenty people. And so once I hit that point, I knew I needed to transition to a CEO.

and I was meeting the founders of Pinterest and slack and, you know, all these amazing places. And they were asking me for my opinion. Right? It was it was crazy. But at a certain point, you get so exhausted you're making a good amount of money. You don't wanna get on a plane to San Francisco every second day to go and sell. And at that point, you know, it starts to become a much more intensive business. And for me, personally, I don't enjoy running businesses after about fifteen or twenty people. And so once I hit that point, I knew I needed to transition to a CEO.

04:14

So when we're in the document, you say the frozen concept bootstrapping and owning one hundred percent. What what do you have under those?

So when we're in the document, you say the frozen concept bootstrapping and owning one hundred percent. What what do you have under those?

04:22

Well,

Well,

04:23

I mean, I think that I've changed my opinion a lot on this. Like, when I first started, I was, like, a Jason Free David Hannenheimer Hansen Hansen, accolade, like, hundred percent every business should be bootstrapped.

I mean, I think that I've changed my opinion a lot on this. Like, when I first started, I was, like, a Jason Free David Hannenheimer Hansen Hansen, accolade, like, hundred percent every business should be bootstrapped.

04:34

I now think that's crazy and stupid, and I think there's certain businesses where it's insane not to raise money. Right? Like, If you have an opportunity to grow your business, it's like the analogy always uses if you own a bakery

I now think that's crazy and stupid, and I think there's certain businesses where it's insane not to raise money. Right? Like, If you have an opportunity to grow your business, it's like the analogy always uses if you own a bakery

04:48

and there's a line out the door, And you have a single oven, and you need to buy three more ovens, but you don't have the money. And in order to service the people on the line, you need to buy two more ovens, it's crazy not to raise money or go get debt or something. I just was never in that position.

and there's a line out the door, And you have a single oven, and you need to buy three more ovens, but you don't have the money. And in order to service the people on the line, you need to buy two more ovens, it's crazy not to raise money or go get debt or something. I just was never in that position.

05:03

And I think, you know, owning a hundred percent or owning majority in your business it's like a dictatorship and dictatorships can be very good,

And I think, you know, owning a hundred percent or owning majority in your business it's like a dictatorship and dictatorships can be very good,

05:11

like Lee Kuan yoo from Singapore or they can go terribly like Kim Jong Un. Right? And the question is, What's your personality and what's gonna work for you? I mean, you can move in Stanley fast. There's no board. There's no committee. You don't owe anyone anything. You don't have an outcome. You know, you don't have to you don't have to sell. And you have total integrity. Like, when Chris and I buy a business, we can look people in the eye and be like, we're cutting a check. Like, this is us. Right? That's very different.

like Lee Kuan yoo from Singapore or they can go terribly like Kim Jong Un. Right? And the question is, What's your personality and what's gonna work for you? I mean, you can move in Stanley fast. There's no board. There's no committee. You don't owe anyone anything. You don't have an outcome. You know, you don't have to you don't have to sell. And you have total integrity. Like, when Chris and I buy a business, we can look people in the eye and be like, we're cutting a check. Like, this is us. Right? That's very different.

05:38

On the cons, I mean, you're on an island. You don't have anyone to really who's aligned and cares. And can tell you you're being an idiot and so you can really drive your business off the rails.

On the cons, I mean, you're on an island. You don't have anyone to really who's aligned and cares. And can tell you you're being an idiot and so you can really drive your business off the rails.

05:48

And then you also think in a limited way. I mean, I know so many entrepreneurs who could ten x their business, but they're so addicted to their dividends or they're conservative

And then you also think in a limited way. I mean, I know so many entrepreneurs who could ten x their business, but they're so addicted to their dividends or they're conservative

05:57

and so they don't. So what about that conversation? Like, I'm I

and so they don't. So what about that conversation? Like, I'm I

06:02

I raise money for our podcasting software company Supercast.

I raise money for our podcasting software company Supercast.

06:06

I'm gonna raise money for our news business. Like, there are situations where it's logical.

I'm gonna raise money for our news business. Like, there are situations where it's logical.

06:12

Alright. And then I forgot to tell you this, but this is the most important thing. I can't believe we didn't talk about this earlier, to be honest with you. Because if you're listening to this and you like what you're hearing right now, and you haven't gone and subscribed to the my first million podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts,

Alright. And then I forgot to tell you this, but this is the most important thing. I can't believe we didn't talk about this earlier, to be honest with you. Because if you're listening to this and you like what you're hearing right now, and you haven't gone and subscribed to the my first million podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts,

06:26

then that's the thing you gotta do. There's nothing more important than doing that right now. And don't do it because I said to do it. Do it because you wanna do it. Do it because that's who you are.

then that's the thing you gotta do. There's nothing more important than doing that right now. And don't do it because I said to do it. Do it because you wanna do it. Do it because that's who you are.

06:36

What about that conversation of employees, employees saying they want equity?

What about that conversation of employees, employees saying they want equity?

06:41

And you don't give equity? Well, it's just there's certain businesses

And you don't give equity? Well, it's just there's certain businesses

06:44

There's certain businesses where we do and there's certain ones where we don't. Right? And the big question is what I always say to a,

There's certain businesses where we do and there's certain ones where we don't. Right? And the big question is what I always say to a,

06:51

to an employee is equal risk, equal reward.

to an employee is equal risk, equal reward.

06:54

And if the business is gonna sell at some point or we think it can IPO

And if the business is gonna sell at some point or we think it can IPO

06:59

Great. We'd love to talk about equity, but there's a cost to it. Right? If you wanna make three hundred grand a year

Great. We'd love to talk about equity, but there's a cost to it. Right? If you wanna make three hundred grand a year

07:05

and you don't wanna give up any of that three hundred grand in order to get stock options or buy equity, then it doesn't matter. So I love I love giving people the option and saying, look, you can either give up some of your comp or upside or whatever, and we'll give you stock options,

and you don't wanna give up any of that three hundred grand in order to get stock options or buy equity, then it doesn't matter. So I love I love giving people the option and saying, look, you can either give up some of your comp or upside or whatever, and we'll give you stock options,

07:20

or you can get the big salary and prioritize cash. And a lot of people prioritize

or you can get the big salary and prioritize cash. And a lot of people prioritize

07:24

comfort and cash, I find. At least, you know, not outside of the Bay Area.

comfort and cash, I find. At least, you know, not outside of the Bay Area.

07:29

By the way, Andrew, you mentioned the guy from Singapore. Sam, do you know this guy leak on you?

By the way, Andrew, you mentioned the guy from Singapore. Sam, do you know this guy leak on you?

07:34

I know a little bit about him. I didn't realize he was a dictator. I thought they called him, like, the CEO or something.

I know a little bit about him. I didn't realize he was a dictator. I thought they called him, like, the CEO or something.

07:40

No. He's literally a dictator. But, like, a good the good dictator. Sir, Angie, you give us, like, the two minutes,

No. He's literally a dictator. But, like, a good the good dictator. Sir, Angie, you give us, like, the two minutes,

07:46

two minute kind of summary of of who this guy is and why he's awesome? So effectively, he took over,

two minute kind of summary of of who this guy is and why he's awesome? So effectively, he took over,

07:51

Singapore is like a island tropical island state,

Singapore is like a island tropical island state,

07:55

in Asia.

in Asia.

07:56

And at the time, it was like rice patties, poverty, like, a

And at the time, it was like rice patties, poverty, like, a

08:00

bog.

bog.

08:01

And he literally

And he literally

08:03

took it over, you know, had an autocracy,

took it over, you know, had an autocracy,

08:06

had total control,

had total control,

08:07

and he basically thought like a business person and was like, okay, How do we make this the most business friendly place? How do we optimize taxes? How do we ensure we have hyper competent government? How do we pay government really, really well?

and he basically thought like a business person and was like, okay, How do we make this the most business friendly place? How do we optimize taxes? How do we ensure we have hyper competent government? How do we pay government really, really well?

08:20

How do we incentivize the whole world to manufacture

How do we incentivize the whole world to manufacture

08:23

and export,

and export,

08:24

you know, their products from here and basically built it into

you know, their products from here and basically built it into

08:28

Asia's kinda outside of Hong Kong, I think it's like the central banking and finance

Asia's kinda outside of Hong Kong, I think it's like the central banking and finance

08:34

hub in Asia. So it's a pretty incredible story.

hub in Asia. So it's a pretty incredible story.

08:38

And I think he his background is, like, he's like a math and computer science guy. Right? Like, he he doesn't come from

And I think he his background is, like, he's like a math and computer science guy. Right? Like, he he doesn't come from

08:44

kind of this, like, you know,

kind of this, like, you know,

08:46

political background. Like, he came from a different sort of background, and I think that's why you got different ideas from from a leader in charge.

political background. Like, he came from a different sort of background, and I think that's why you got different ideas from from a leader in charge.

08:53

Totally.

Totally.

08:54

You wanna tell me You actually had something that you

You wanna tell me You actually had something that you

08:57

I was gonna say you you had one thing you tweeted out, that's related to how you run the business at tiny, which is this this higher one, higher ten,

I was gonna say you you had one thing you tweeted out, that's related to how you run the business at tiny, which is this this higher one, higher ten,

09:04

framework.

framework.

09:05

What what is that? I because that that sounded interesting to me. And I think that that's, like,

What what is that? I because that that sounded interesting to me. And I think that that's, like,

09:10

what I understood, it was a pretty useful concept. So so explain that.

what I understood, it was a pretty useful concept. So so explain that.

09:13

Yeah. So our CEOs get super annoyed because I say this all the time. It's probably the number one thing I say. And it's probably the biggest hack that enabled us to build tiny over the last eight years.

Yeah. So our CEOs get super annoyed because I say this all the time. It's probably the number one thing I say. And it's probably the biggest hack that enabled us to build tiny over the last eight years.

09:25

So, I mean, think about it like this. So If you had an army general

So, I mean, think about it like this. So If you had an army general

09:28

who is commanding a thousand troops, but he's still telling individual soldiers what to do and he's personally restocking their ammunition,

who is commanding a thousand troops, but he's still telling individual soldiers what to do and he's personally restocking their ammunition,

09:36

and he's shuffling people around, you'd be like, what the hell is this guy doing? Right? But I think a lot of people operate their business like this. I mean, I certainly did in the early days. I would swoop and poop and, you know, instead of hiring a VP marketing,

and he's shuffling people around, you'd be like, what the hell is this guy doing? Right? But I think a lot of people operate their business like this. I mean, I certainly did in the early days. I would swoop and poop and, you know, instead of hiring a VP marketing,

09:49

I would go and I'd hire a whole bunch of marketing people and just kind of become the VP of marketing

I would go and I'd hire a whole bunch of marketing people and just kind of become the VP of marketing

09:54

and or I bypass people and tell people what to do. And what I realized is you should never ever

and or I bypass people and tell people what to do. And what I realized is you should never ever

10:00

hire the ten people. You should always focus on hiring the one person So that could be a CEO who will then go out and hire all the executives

hire the ten people. You should always focus on hiring the one person So that could be a CEO who will then go out and hire all the executives

10:07

or could be hiring an executive who'll hire an entire team. But

or could be hiring an executive who'll hire an entire team. But

10:12

it just it's such a hack. Right? It's like eighty twenty. How do I do twenty percent of the work for eighty percent of the result?

it just it's such a hack. Right? It's like eighty twenty. How do I do twenty percent of the work for eighty percent of the result?

10:19

And, yeah, I mean, it took me ages to figure this out. I feel like I've only cracked this in the last, like, five years. And I still Chris will still catch me in this. He'll be like, hire, you know, hire one to hire ten. Didn't But when you hire that that mistake all the time. And when you hire that one person, how much

And, yeah, I mean, it took me ages to figure this out. I feel like I've only cracked this in the last, like, five years. And I still Chris will still catch me in this. He'll be like, hire, you know, hire one to hire ten. Didn't But when you hire that that mistake all the time. And when you hire that one person, how much

10:35

so let's say your business is doing,

so let's say your business is doing,

10:37

let's say one million in revenue. It's small. No. Let's say a little long. Let's say ten million in revenue. Two million in in like actual cash flow you have. You hire that one person, you pay them

let's say one million in revenue. It's small. No. Let's say a little long. Let's say ten million in revenue. Two million in in like actual cash flow you have. You hire that one person, you pay them

10:48

a lot of money, two hundred fifty thousand dollars. Do you only hire that two hundred fifty thousand dollar person when you know for a fact, you've got budget for, like, two more people?

a lot of money, two hundred fifty thousand dollars. Do you only hire that two hundred fifty thousand dollar person when you know for a fact, you've got budget for, like, two more people?

10:57

Yeah. That I mean, that's my approach. That's why I've shifted to is, like, I hire

Yeah. That I mean, that's my approach. That's why I've shifted to is, like, I hire

11:02

you know, here's an example is, like, we hired CEO of Arrow Press,

you know, here's an example is, like, we hired CEO of Arrow Press,

11:06

and

and

11:07

he asked me questions. Oh, you know, what do you think about this hire or that hire? And I just said, That's your, you know, that's your hire. You know, I hired you. I trust you a hundred percent. You make those hires. Right? And so it's complete delegation

he asked me questions. Oh, you know, what do you think about this hire or that hire? And I just said, That's your, you know, that's your hire. You know, I hired you. I trust you a hundred percent. You make those hires. Right? And so it's complete delegation

11:19

of you know, when I buy a business, I make two decisions who runs it and how are they incentivized.

of you know, when I buy a business, I make two decisions who runs it and how are they incentivized.

11:24

And unless they do something dirty or horrible or the business goes to shit, you know, I just leave them to it. What's the trick on the, how are they incentivized? So so what's the

And unless they do something dirty or horrible or the business goes to shit, you know, I just leave them to it. What's the trick on the, how are they incentivized? So so what's the

11:34

how do you think about that when you buy business? You say, alright. The business today is here.

how do you think about that when you buy business? You say, alright. The business today is here.

11:39

And I think, naturally, it's gonna get to there. And I'm bringing on this person to get it to be some inflection above that. And I also know that things you're wrong. So how do you think about that incentive structure? Is it is it case by case you're coming up with very unique

And I think, naturally, it's gonna get to there. And I'm bringing on this person to get it to be some inflection above that. And I also know that things you're wrong. So how do you think about that incentive structure? Is it is it case by case you're coming up with very unique

11:52

patterns or very unique you know, packages, or do you have kind of one base that you that you go off of? It's so different. I mean, like, everyone's incentivized differently. There's there's certain people where, for example, They need to be able to say they're a partner and they have equity. There's other people who don't care about that and they want just targets to hit

patterns or very unique you know, packages, or do you have kind of one base that you that you go off of? It's so different. I mean, like, everyone's incentivized differently. There's there's certain people where, for example, They need to be able to say they're a partner and they have equity. There's other people who don't care about that and they want just targets to hit

12:11

I mean, we've done everything from saying, okay, let's say the business makes a hundred million dollars and it's growing at fifteen percent you anything you do over fifteen percent growth, you get five percent of. Right? That's in its simplest. We've also done things where it's like, you know, hey, when the stock price hits x, get a payment. And I remember, I got to have dinner with Charlie Munger, like, two years ago. And I was like, what's the perfect, you know, incentive structure? And he just said, I've done hundreds and everyone is different and I still don't know what works. I think it's really an art, not a science, because you know, different people are just so differently motivated. And you actually have like steak. So you

I mean, we've done everything from saying, okay, let's say the business makes a hundred million dollars and it's growing at fifteen percent you anything you do over fifteen percent growth, you get five percent of. Right? That's in its simplest. We've also done things where it's like, you know, hey, when the stock price hits x, get a payment. And I remember, I got to have dinner with Charlie Munger, like, two years ago. And I was like, what's the perfect, you know, incentive structure? And he just said, I've done hundreds and everyone is different and I still don't know what works. I think it's really an art, not a science, because you know, different people are just so differently motivated. And you actually have like steak. So you

12:48

sorry. One more, Sam. When when it's usually usually when it's like, oh, it depends. There's there's that not they what that usually means is the winning formula is different a lot, but there's usually a common losing formula. So what is the common losing formula for incentives?

sorry. One more, Sam. When when it's usually usually when it's like, oh, it depends. There's there's that not they what that usually means is the winning formula is different a lot, but there's usually a common losing formula. So what is the common losing formula for incentives?

13:02

The common losing formula is them not being aligned on risk. So for example, if they're able to use my money and I can keep injecting money into the business, but it in no way hurts them. So for example, they don't get diluted

The common losing formula is them not being aligned on risk. So for example, if they're able to use my money and I can keep injecting money into the business, but it in no way hurts them. So for example, they don't get diluted

13:16

or they don't have to pay a high interest rate or

or they don't have to pay a high interest rate or

13:20

you know, if if it goes bankrupt, they don't lose anything,

you know, if if it goes bankrupt, they don't lose anything,

13:23

that's a huge problem. And I've learned that over the last five years. And so now what I try and do is if somebody wants

that's a huge problem. And I've learned that over the last five years. And so now what I try and do is if somebody wants

13:29

equity.

equity.

13:30

I always make them write a check. Right? Or or I loan them money. And it's literally a personal loan guaranteed by their house. Or something. Right? And it's got it doesn't I don't want it to be so much money. It's gonna ruin them or be a problem, but I I if someone wants equity, I'm like, Okay. You gotta put up something because if the business fails or goes down, you gotta have a sense of loss. People feel a lot people feel lost more than they feel game. I just imagined the the Wilkinson moving truck coming in front of the house. They're like, no, honey. It's all gone wrong. You have to come into your own furniture, your own art on the walls. They get to live there, but they have to know that it's your house now. And they truly have we have done it. We I, obviously, you know, I'd never wanna do that. And it's always structured in a way where it's not, you know, we're not gonna have to take their car or something. But I just want I want a feeling of, like, there's gotta be some down side, you know? Sam is gonna take this like way too far. He's gonna take their car, and it's like a punch cross, like, hundred percent.

I always make them write a check. Right? Or or I loan them money. And it's literally a personal loan guaranteed by their house. Or something. Right? And it's got it doesn't I don't want it to be so much money. It's gonna ruin them or be a problem, but I I if someone wants equity, I'm like, Okay. You gotta put up something because if the business fails or goes down, you gotta have a sense of loss. People feel a lot people feel lost more than they feel game. I just imagined the the Wilkinson moving truck coming in front of the house. They're like, no, honey. It's all gone wrong. You have to come into your own furniture, your own art on the walls. They get to live there, but they have to know that it's your house now. And they truly have we have done it. We I, obviously, you know, I'd never wanna do that. And it's always structured in a way where it's not, you know, we're not gonna have to take their car or something. But I just want I want a feeling of, like, there's gotta be some down side, you know? Sam is gonna take this like way too far. He's gonna take their car, and it's like a punch cross, like, hundred percent.

14:24

Just because if you lose my money, I'm gonna punch you.

Just because if you lose my money, I'm gonna punch you.

14:29

Yeah. I love this, Gabe. You, you also

Yeah. I love this, Gabe. You, you also

14:33

speaking of that, of risk, you also hire people really early. You told

speaking of that, of risk, you also hire people really early. You told

14:37

me

me

14:38

I don't know if you talked about those, but you're tinkering around with this bake. Do you wanna talk about the bay can you mention the bakery or no?

I don't know if you talked about those, but you're tinkering around with this bake. Do you wanna talk about the bay can you mention the bakery or no?

14:44

Yeah. Well, the big kinda sad. No. Sorry. Not the bakery. The the, the, ghost kitchen. Ghost kitchen.

Yeah. Well, the big kinda sad. No. Sorry. Not the bakery. The the, the, ghost kitchen. Ghost kitchen.

14:54

You tinkered with this thing where you hired a baker and you were making stuff to sell on DoorDash and Uber Eats.

You tinkered with this thing where you hired a baker and you were making stuff to sell on DoorDash and Uber Eats.

15:01

And I don't know if it was entirely legal, so we don't talk about it. But the point I'm bringing up is is that Well, no. I can I can I can tell? Well, tell the story then. Let me ask my question.

And I don't know if it was entirely legal, so we don't talk about it. But the point I'm bringing up is is that Well, no. I can I can I can tell? Well, tell the story then. Let me ask my question.

15:10

Sure. So, basically, you know, I'm pretty interested in health and stuff, and I was trying to get off sugar. And so I went to a baker friend, and I was like, look, can you try and make, like, like sugar free cookies

Sure. So, basically, you know, I'm pretty interested in health and stuff, and I was trying to get off sugar. And so I went to a baker friend, and I was like, look, can you try and make, like, like sugar free cookies

15:21

using modern, you know, there's always like crazy modern sugars, like, you guys have heard of magic spoon. Yeah. Yeah. Like magic spoon uses

using modern, you know, there's always like crazy modern sugars, like, you guys have heard of magic spoon. Yeah. Yeah. Like magic spoon uses

15:28

Alulose and Stevia and monk fruit and stuff. So he started making these. And I was like, okay. These are, like, not as good as a chocolate chip cookie, but they're like ninety percent there. And I bet you a lot of people would be into this as like a replacement. Like, think about halo top. It doesn't taste as good as ice cream. You can eat a fuckload of it and it's not bad for you in the same way. So I basically made that. We started making all these treats. We were cooking it out of our office, which is not technically legal.

Alulose and Stevia and monk fruit and stuff. So he started making these. And I was like, okay. These are, like, not as good as a chocolate chip cookie, but they're like ninety percent there. And I bet you a lot of people would be into this as like a replacement. Like, think about halo top. It doesn't taste as good as ice cream. You can eat a fuckload of it and it's not bad for you in the same way. So I basically made that. We started making all these treats. We were cooking it out of our office, which is not technically legal.

15:56

And what happened was,

And what happened was,

15:58

I got a call from Island Health, which is like the local health authority, and they just said, Hey, you're using an ingredient that's not approved in Canada. And unfortunately,

I got a call from Island Health, which is like the local health authority, and they just said, Hey, you're using an ingredient that's not approved in Canada. And unfortunately,

16:07

aulose is not approved approved in Canada, and so you just legally can't serve food with it, even though it's generally regarded as safe and everything.

aulose is not approved approved in Canada, and so you just legally can't serve food with it, even though it's generally regarded as safe and everything.

16:15

So I'm still gonna do it at some point, I think, but I just legally can't. It sucks. And I've never It it's insane to me. You can hit up against these regulatory issues. Like, imagine being a real estate developer and, like, you have this amazing vision and then city council is just like, Nope. Yeah. It sucks. That is insane to me as an Internet entrepreneur. And that's what I was gonna ask. So you, like, hired a baker to do it, but then also with your

So I'm still gonna do it at some point, I think, but I just legally can't. It sucks. And I've never It it's insane to me. You can hit up against these regulatory issues. Like, imagine being a real estate developer and, like, you have this amazing vision and then city council is just like, Nope. Yeah. It sucks. That is insane to me as an Internet entrepreneur. And that's what I was gonna ask. So you, like, hired a baker to do it, but then also with your

16:38

newsletter business, your local news business, you high I forget the guy's name, but he's, I've talked to him a bit. He's a nice guy. You've hired him to be the CEO. And so you you hire people pretty

newsletter business, your local news business, you high I forget the guy's name, but he's, I've talked to him a bit. He's a nice guy. You've hired him to be the CEO. And so you you hire people pretty

16:48

Yes. And you you hire people pretty early on. And hiring someone to do something to me is a huge risk because in my head, I'm like, man, if this guy's got a kid, like, I'm like, his kid's now kinda my kid too.

Yes. And you you hire people pretty early on. And hiring someone to do something to me is a huge risk because in my head, I'm like, man, if this guy's got a kid, like, I'm like, his kid's now kinda my kid too.

17:00

You know, like, it's like a big risk if he's quitting it. That's what I felt when my when my one of my first employee married. I was like, oh, I've got a family now.

You know, like, it's like a big risk if he's quitting it. That's what I felt when my when my one of my first employee married. I was like, oh, I've got a family now.

17:08

Because I was like, some of the decisions I make are gonna impact this entire family, and that's really stressful. And it's also a huge conversation to convince someone who's in their thirties, forties, whatever, and they're even in their late twenties to leave their fancy gig at Salesforce to bail and come to my company that I'm gonna pay him forty five thousand dollars. That's a huge thing. I I go when I go to bed at night, I'm I that stresses me out, but you seem like you overcome that pretty easily. You hire people relatively early and you're like, yeah, it's no big deal. I'm just gonna hire this person. What's that like? Like, what are you thinking when you do that?

Because I was like, some of the decisions I make are gonna impact this entire family, and that's really stressful. And it's also a huge conversation to convince someone who's in their thirties, forties, whatever, and they're even in their late twenties to leave their fancy gig at Salesforce to bail and come to my company that I'm gonna pay him forty five thousand dollars. That's a huge thing. I I go when I go to bed at night, I'm I that stresses me out, but you seem like you overcome that pretty easily. You hire people relatively early and you're like, yeah, it's no big deal. I'm just gonna hire this person. What's that like? Like, what are you thinking when you do that?

17:40

Alright. What's going on? Just a quick break, a quick interruption. Scroll down into the description box on YouTube, and you're gonna see a link to the hustle, the hustle, is a daily email. It gives you all you need to know about business and tech news. I started it years ago. And it's awesome. It's kinda how this podcast got started. So check it out, the hustle.

Alright. What's going on? Just a quick break, a quick interruption. Scroll down into the description box on YouTube, and you're gonna see a link to the hustle, the hustle, is a daily email. It gives you all you need to know about business and tech news. I started it years ago. And it's awesome. It's kinda how this podcast got started. So check it out, the hustle.

17:58

Slow down, do it.

Slow down, do it.

18:00

Well, I've lost. I've I've messed that up a lot, and I think you guys know my whole story about losing ten million dollars building project management software. Like, that was a perfect example where I got ahead of myself.

Well, I've lost. I've I've messed that up a lot, and I think you guys know my whole story about losing ten million dollars building project management software. Like, that was a perfect example where I got ahead of myself.

18:12

The business didn't make sense, and I threw a bunch of spaghetti at the wall. And none of it stuck and I had to let a whole bunch of people go and it was really horrible and sad. And, you know, it was like a ten year slow death. Right? So I've been through that. So now it's more

The business didn't make sense, and I threw a bunch of spaghetti at the wall. And none of it stuck and I had to let a whole bunch of people go and it was really horrible and sad. And, you know, it was like a ten year slow death. Right? So I've been through that. So now it's more

18:26

with the amount of scar tissue I have, I have enough I have enough signal where I can be like, okay, I'm gonna try this. And with the bakery, I was just contracting a friend. Right? Yeah. That was that was the best example. I I said this is an experiment. With the news business, I actually ran it for three years. Before I partner with Farhan, and he took over as CEO. And by that point, there was enough signal. It was slapping me in the face. I was like, this is a big opportunity.

with the amount of scar tissue I have, I have enough I have enough signal where I can be like, okay, I'm gonna try this. And with the bakery, I was just contracting a friend. Right? Yeah. That was that was the best example. I I said this is an experiment. With the news business, I actually ran it for three years. Before I partner with Farhan, and he took over as CEO. And by that point, there was enough signal. It was slapping me in the face. I was like, this is a big opportunity.

18:50

And is that the case with all with all the things that you start?

And is that the case with all with all the things that you start?

18:55

We take that off. Yeah. Usually, like, if I if I go in, I hire a CEO,

We take that off. Yeah. Usually, like, if I if I go in, I hire a CEO,

18:59

I'm pretty high conviction that there's something there. Or there's already a business that supports has cash flow. What I would never do is be like, Hey, there's, you know, I have an idea for this. I'll just go hire a CEO. Like, I I I would never do that.

I'm pretty high conviction that there's something there. Or there's already a business that supports has cash flow. What I would never do is be like, Hey, there's, you know, I have an idea for this. I'll just go hire a CEO. Like, I I I would never do that.

19:12

Andrea, I feel like you've reached this point and,

Andrea, I feel like you've reached this point and,

19:16

I used to be like, how did these motherfuckers

I used to be like, how did these motherfuckers

19:19

do this? Where I remember I was doing a startup,

do this? Where I remember I was doing a startup,

19:22

and it was so hard to get my one thing to work. And then I would meet people who were like, Oh, yeah. So I have that past success, then I have my current success. And then here's my three side successes

and it was so hard to get my one thing to work. And then I would meet people who were like, Oh, yeah. So I have that past success, then I have my current success. And then here's my three side successes

19:31

that I had this idea that we doing it, and then I guess out the lines out the door. And then this other one, it's, like, kind of cool. We just started it, you know, like, I accidentally, you know, my hand just fell on my keyboard and I accidentally wrote this app. It was amazing. It went viral. And this other thing that I just tweeted about, and then this all coming together nicely.

that I had this idea that we doing it, and then I guess out the lines out the door. And then this other one, it's, like, kind of cool. We just started it, you know, like, I accidentally, you know, my hand just fell on my keyboard and I accidentally wrote this app. It was amazing. It went viral. And this other thing that I just tweeted about, and then this all coming together nicely.

19:48

And I just remember being like, what do they know something I don't know? Is there just, like, extreme luck component?

And I just remember being like, what do they know something I don't know? Is there just, like, extreme luck component?

19:55

And I felt that way for many years, five, six years straight when I was pushing the boulder up the hill with my startup.

And I felt that way for many years, five, six years straight when I was pushing the boulder up the hill with my startup.

20:01

And then I now have experienced exactly what the thing that I was most jealous of, and I have no idea what switched in between. Or, like, the last five things I've tried have all worked and all worked pretty much immediately.

And then I now have experienced exactly what the thing that I was most jealous of, and I have no idea what switched in between. Or, like, the last five things I've tried have all worked and all worked pretty much immediately.

20:13

And that it doesn't matter how big or small, like, you know, whether it's, like, the the podcast or the course or,

And that it doesn't matter how big or small, like, you know, whether it's, like, the the podcast or the course or,

20:19

you know, the, my e commerce business or my the new milk road newsletter business. Like, each of these has just worked straight away in a bigger way than anything I'd ever done before,

you know, the, my e commerce business or my the new milk road newsletter business. Like, each of these has just worked straight away in a bigger way than anything I'd ever done before,

20:31

with less work and less stress than, like, the old stuff I used to do. And I have no idea

with less work and less stress than, like, the old stuff I used to do. And I have no idea

20:35

What changed? Or I have a kind of an inkling, but I I don't really know. Sam, have you thought about this? Or do you know what I'm talking about? And what are you thinking about? And what are you thinking about? And I completely you're on a roll right now.

What changed? Or I have a kind of an inkling, but I I don't really know. Sam, have you thought about this? Or do you know what I'm talking about? And what are you thinking about? And what are you thinking about? And I completely you're on a roll right now.

20:46

And what's your inkling? I have a feeling of my my my my answer is it's kinda like a shitty. It's like a mindset, like abundance attitude and being on being on offense versus defense, but what's your what's your what's your inkling?

And what's your inkling? I have a feeling of my my my my answer is it's kinda like a shitty. It's like a mindset, like abundance attitude and being on being on offense versus defense, but what's your what's your what's your inkling?

21:00

So my inkling is that

So my inkling is that

21:04

I switched up my situation.

I switched up my situation.

21:07

So, like, I was in one situation for a very long time. Like, And it was a nice situation. It was a very nice situation.

So, like, I was in one situation for a very long time. Like, And it was a nice situation. It was a very nice situation.

21:13

But it was, like, where I was going to this office every day, working with these people in this hierarchy,

But it was, like, where I was going to this office every day, working with these people in this hierarchy,

21:19

with this boundary box of, like, what projects or projects we can work on and, like, what success might look like. And as soon as I got out of that, that was just me. I was, oh, okay. So now that it's just me that I have to look out for, I guess I could just do a podcast. I didn't have to have, like, this big venture billion dollar outcome. I didn't have twenty engineers to go tell what to do. I had no engineers. So I just did what I could do with no engineers, which was like, I'll do a a podcast. I'll do Of course. I'll do I'll just try to get big on Twitter. Let's just see what happens. And, oh, you know, like, five tweets go viral and boom, got two hundred thousand followers. It's like, There's these things that I just wasn't doing before because I think before I had a really set thing of, like, here's what I need to do Like, here here's the only way to win. And I had, like, almost too much ammo. I had, like, too many people at my disposal too much funding, too much everything.

with this boundary box of, like, what projects or projects we can work on and, like, what success might look like. And as soon as I got out of that, that was just me. I was, oh, okay. So now that it's just me that I have to look out for, I guess I could just do a podcast. I didn't have to have, like, this big venture billion dollar outcome. I didn't have twenty engineers to go tell what to do. I had no engineers. So I just did what I could do with no engineers, which was like, I'll do a a podcast. I'll do Of course. I'll do I'll just try to get big on Twitter. Let's just see what happens. And, oh, you know, like, five tweets go viral and boom, got two hundred thousand followers. It's like, There's these things that I just wasn't doing before because I think before I had a really set thing of, like, here's what I need to do Like, here here's the only way to win. And I had, like, almost too much ammo. I had, like, too many people at my disposal too much funding, too much everything.

22:09

And because of that, I I had a very narrow window of what could work. And so I was just trying to come up with ideas that might work versus

And because of that, I I had a very narrow window of what could work. And so I was just trying to come up with ideas that might work versus

22:16

let me just try this because I I'm I just kinda wanna try it. And then when once I got into, I just kinda wanna try it and I didn't have I didn't have to worry about what other people thought or didn't have to come in and manage anybody in the that day and tell them what to do. I didn't have, like, investors to go pitch to. I just did the thing. And then all of a sudden, I feel like, you know, sort of like, the talents that in skills that I had been building up over the past ten years, like, finally got to just do them.

let me just try this because I I'm I just kinda wanna try it. And then when once I got into, I just kinda wanna try it and I didn't have I didn't have to worry about what other people thought or didn't have to come in and manage anybody in the that day and tell them what to do. I didn't have, like, investors to go pitch to. I just did the thing. And then all of a sudden, I feel like, you know, sort of like, the talents that in skills that I had been building up over the past ten years, like, finally got to just do them.

22:40

Yeah. Don't you think it's like dating or something, though, where it's like, you, you know, you date a couple crazy girl and it's really exhilarating.

Yeah. Don't you think it's like dating or something, though, where it's like, you, you know, you date a couple crazy girl and it's really exhilarating.

22:47

And then over time, you're like, wow, that was horrible. And there's pattern matching. You're like, okay, when I go to a restaurant and a girl's rude to the waiter, That's a no. Right? And in the same way with business, you go, oh, okay. Like, I used to think I wanted to build all these kinds of businesses But those were ten foot hurdles. I don't wanna jump ten foot hurdles. I wanna jump one foot hurdles. And so if you think about it, all the stuff you're doing They're in your, you know, circle of competence and they're relatively simple to execute. They don't require a lot of people. They don't require funding. I think learning that is like a fifteen year overnight success kind of thing where it just clicks suddenly. Right. And I'll catch myself occasionally getting pulled down rabbit trails of, like, Oh, what if I did this crazy, you know, drone AI startup, whatever? But then I always go back to base hits. And I and I and I think there's a

And then over time, you're like, wow, that was horrible. And there's pattern matching. You're like, okay, when I go to a restaurant and a girl's rude to the waiter, That's a no. Right? And in the same way with business, you go, oh, okay. Like, I used to think I wanted to build all these kinds of businesses But those were ten foot hurdles. I don't wanna jump ten foot hurdles. I wanna jump one foot hurdles. And so if you think about it, all the stuff you're doing They're in your, you know, circle of competence and they're relatively simple to execute. They don't require a lot of people. They don't require funding. I think learning that is like a fifteen year overnight success kind of thing where it just clicks suddenly. Right. And I'll catch myself occasionally getting pulled down rabbit trails of, like, Oh, what if I did this crazy, you know, drone AI startup, whatever? But then I always go back to base hits. And I and I and I think there's a

23:36

There's this third component.

There's this third component.

23:38

Well, go ahead. You go ahead.

Well, go ahead. You go ahead.

23:41

Alright. There's this. There oh my god. What's going on? We're like

Alright. There's this. There oh my god. What's going on? We're like

23:45

Alright. I'm gonna go. There's this third component of of confidence. And so I think that because of, like, my work, I've been more confident, and I understand, like, Well, if I invest a dollar here, I think I can make at least, three dollars the next two years. So, like, just understanding how machines, like, money making machines work investments, But then also, I think Sean, because we get to hang out with we hang out with each other. We hang out with Andrew. We hang out with our circle of friends. We hang out with all the people. We've had speak at our events. We hang out with our,

Alright. I'm gonna go. There's this third component of of confidence. And so I think that because of, like, my work, I've been more confident, and I understand, like, Well, if I invest a dollar here, I think I can make at least, three dollars the next two years. So, like, just understanding how machines, like, money making machines work investments, But then also, I think Sean, because we get to hang out with we hang out with each other. We hang out with Andrew. We hang out with our circle of friends. We hang out with all the people. We've had speak at our events. We hang out with our,

24:12

podcast guess, it becomes more normal. Like, succeeding has become far more normal than not succeeding, actually, and not succeeding is just like yeah. It's gonna happen, but then you just move on and do the next thing. And it's like and then inevitably it works. So it's not if it's or it's not when it's if. And I think that confidence has actually helped a ton where so for example, now if someone wants to, like, real estate's an an an easy one because it's so predictable, but with real estate, you're, like, man, putting a hundred thousand dollars down on this house is a lot of money. That's a, you know, that's six figures. It's like, well, dude, but it's gonna make twelve percent. It's like, well, I don't know that. And I'm like, yeah, I know, but it's gonna do that. So you you actually wanna invest more. So, like, that confidence of just knowing the motions and knowing the routine and process has actually helped a lot.

podcast guess, it becomes more normal. Like, succeeding has become far more normal than not succeeding, actually, and not succeeding is just like yeah. It's gonna happen, but then you just move on and do the next thing. And it's like and then inevitably it works. So it's not if it's or it's not when it's if. And I think that confidence has actually helped a ton where so for example, now if someone wants to, like, real estate's an an an easy one because it's so predictable, but with real estate, you're, like, man, putting a hundred thousand dollars down on this house is a lot of money. That's a, you know, that's six figures. It's like, well, dude, but it's gonna make twelve percent. It's like, well, I don't know that. And I'm like, yeah, I know, but it's gonna do that. So you you actually wanna invest more. So, like, that confidence of just knowing the motions and knowing the routine and process has actually helped a lot.

24:58

Totally. Yeah. The other thing I was gonna say is, which is what you guys both just said, but frame differently is I was taking a shitload of market risk before.

Totally. Yeah. The other thing I was gonna say is, which is what you guys both just said, but frame differently is I was taking a shitload of market risk before.

25:06

And now I basically take almost no market risk. I just take execution risk.

And now I basically take almost no market risk. I just take execution risk.

25:12

And before, even if I felt like a executed great, which I did, I feel like I did in in a couple of the projects that we had done and during my, like, kind of, like, the the the previous startup,

And before, even if I felt like a executed great, which I did, I feel like I did in in a couple of the projects that we had done and during my, like, kind of, like, the the the previous startup,

25:22

the market risk was too high. Like, there was just no it was like inventing a new fucking,

the market risk was too high. Like, there was just no it was like inventing a new fucking,

25:28

like, a new science, you know, on a new land, And it was just the market risk was way too high now. I'm just doing things that are like, oh, I I just know that this works, and I just need to do it well. So it's like, ecommerce is nothing

like, a new science, you know, on a new land, And it was just the market risk was way too high now. I'm just doing things that are like, oh, I I just know that this works, and I just need to do it well. So it's like, ecommerce is nothing

25:40

there's no

there's no

25:41

fancy science to it.

fancy science to it.

25:43

And I had buddies who did it, and I just used their model, and I just did my own in my own lane of their model.

And I had buddies who did it, and I just used their model, and I just did my own in my own lane of their model.

25:49

Milk Road is the hustle, but in the crypto lane, which is the the lane I like. Right? Well, it's like I just took your blueprint for the hustle, And I just copy pasted over here, and then it's execution risk from there. I know, dude. I saw that you literally copy and pasted the Twitter handle. It was hilarious. Your Twitter description has literally caught you.

Milk Road is the hustle, but in the crypto lane, which is the the lane I like. Right? Well, it's like I just took your blueprint for the hustle, And I just copy pasted over here, and then it's execution risk from there. I know, dude. I saw that you literally copy and pasted the Twitter handle. It was hilarious. Your Twitter description has literally caught you.

26:08

I sent you some old resources from the hustle, and we call ourselves the your smart, good looking friend or something who tells you everything you need to know about. And you just copy that and you put it's not a business attack. You just put, like, delete crypto or something like that.

I sent you some old resources from the hustle, and we call ourselves the your smart, good looking friend or something who tells you everything you need to know about. And you just copy that and you put it's not a business attack. You just put, like, delete crypto or something like that.

26:22

And, actually, the thing is it wasn't even, you know, why it did that. I remember seven years ago or eight years ago when you first said that to me. And the very first, like,

And, actually, the thing is it wasn't even, you know, why it did that. I remember seven years ago or eight years ago when you first said that to me. And the very first, like,

26:30

you know, like, you you kinda sat me down here, like, look, people are not people are age, like, we don't watch MSNBC

you know, like, you you kinda sat me down here, like, look, people are not people are age, like, we don't watch MSNBC

26:36

and, like, CNN and this stuff for our our information. That's not the brand we trust. And you you said it. You're like, I just wanna be, like, they're smart. And I remember you said it. I just wanna be, like, you're smart. No bullshit friend who just explained and tells you what's going on. And I was, like, I, like, it clicked with me eight years ago. And so when it came time to do this, I was like, that's the exact description. The smart, no bullshit friend.

and, like, CNN and this stuff for our our information. That's not the brand we trust. And you you said it. You're like, I just wanna be, like, they're smart. And I remember you said it. I just wanna be, like, you're smart. No bullshit friend who just explained and tells you what's going on. And I was, like, I, like, it clicked with me eight years ago. And so when it came time to do this, I was like, that's the exact description. The smart, no bullshit friend.

26:57

I think one more thing, Andrew, is that I look at I I used to you kinda said that Andrew in in terms of, like, financial success, which is a big, but not only,

I think one more thing, Andrew, is that I look at I I used to you kinda said that Andrew in in terms of, like, financial success, which is a big, but not only,

27:11

measure of success. Andrew, you're, like,

measure of success. Andrew, you're, like,

27:13

a grand slam at the moment. You know, you're you're I imagine you're incredibly wealthy and you've built businesses that are incredibly large.

a grand slam at the moment. You know, you're you're I imagine you're incredibly wealthy and you've built businesses that are incredibly large.

27:20

So by that measure of success, you are, like, way out there.

So by that measure of success, you are, like, way out there.

27:24

And for a while, I think I, like, you were, like, mystical to me where I'm, like, how does he doing this? Now it's changed to where I think I acknowledge that you definitely have talent that makes you special. You for sure have skills that make you special. But really,

And for a while, I think I, like, you were, like, mystical to me where I'm, like, how does he doing this? Now it's changed to where I think I acknowledge that you definitely have talent that makes you special. You for sure have skills that make you special. But really,

27:39

a lot of it is also I don't know what percentage of it is each, but let's just say a third a third a third third of it is, well, he's just been doing it for like fifteen years now or a certain amount of time. And he just, like, took the risk of raising or, building the business And then he raised the money a little bit for the fun. And so it's not a matter of, like, how is he doing doing this. It's just like, well, if I want that life, like, I probably could do it. I just have to dedicate or twenty years and go through the same motions that he does, and that mayor may not fit the -- Well, and it -- what I like.

a lot of it is also I don't know what percentage of it is each, but let's just say a third a third a third third of it is, well, he's just been doing it for like fifteen years now or a certain amount of time. And he just, like, took the risk of raising or, building the business And then he raised the money a little bit for the fun. And so it's not a matter of, like, how is he doing doing this. It's just like, well, if I want that life, like, I probably could do it. I just have to dedicate or twenty years and go through the same motions that he does, and that mayor may not fit the -- Well, and it -- what I like.

28:09

The interesting thing is, I don't know if you know this, but Warren Buffett made, ninety seven percent of his wealth after the age of fifty five.

The interesting thing is, I don't know if you know this, but Warren Buffett made, ninety seven percent of his wealth after the age of fifty five.

28:17

So so it all happens very slowly. He started in his twenties or whatever. And he wasn't really well known until the nineties. And the same thing happened with us where we didn't really talk about what we did. People would meet us and they'd be like, oh, you're some Schmoes from Victoria who owns some digital agency.

So so it all happens very slowly. He started in his twenties or whatever. And he wasn't really well known until the nineties. And the same thing happened with us where we didn't really talk about what we did. People would meet us and they'd be like, oh, you're some Schmoes from Victoria who owns some digital agency.

28:32

You seem to own all these really boring businesses, you know, whatever. And so it requires being kind of underestimated and dismissed and playing a very boring game while watching everyone else go and make, you know, tens of millions, billions of dollars taking risk in startups.

You seem to own all these really boring businesses, you know, whatever. And so it requires being kind of underestimated and dismissed and playing a very boring game while watching everyone else go and make, you know, tens of millions, billions of dollars taking risk in startups.

28:48

Meanwhile, we're just going, how do we take, you know, a hundred grand and make ten, fifteen, twenty k a year on that money? And just keep compounding. And so, basically,

Meanwhile, we're just going, how do we take, you know, a hundred grand and make ten, fifteen, twenty k a year on that money? And just keep compounding. And so, basically,

28:59

the mo mental model was take seventy percent of our profits

the mo mental model was take seventy percent of our profits

29:03

and constantly reinvest take the other thirty percent, live a nice life, and that number went down over time.

and constantly reinvest take the other thirty percent, live a nice life, and that number went down over time.

29:08

And, yeah, you do that for seventeen years, and it turns into a, you know, a big number.

And, yeah, you do that for seventeen years, and it turns into a, you know, a big number.

29:14

Ironically, I still feel just as at risk and terrified as I did fifteen years ago. And I think it's the classic thing of You're you're not you're not actually scared. Are you? Because I have liquidity now, and I'm I'm scared, but I'm like, am I artist when I only had twenty thousand dollars in my bank account, I can't decide. No. No. No. No. But it's it's maybe it's different for me because, you know, I have

Ironically, I still feel just as at risk and terrified as I did fifteen years ago. And I think it's the classic thing of You're you're not you're not actually scared. Are you? Because I have liquidity now, and I'm I'm scared, but I'm like, am I artist when I only had twenty thousand dollars in my bank account, I can't decide. No. No. No. No. But it's it's maybe it's different for me because, you know, I have

29:37

an un for if you told me ten years ago how much, you know, cash we have or what our cash flow is, it would blow my mind. And I'd say, how could you ever feel at risk? The problem is that the stakes are bigger. You know, we have almost a thousand employees now. Right? So there's a lot more,

an un for if you told me ten years ago how much, you know, cash we have or what our cash flow is, it would blow my mind. And I'd say, how could you ever feel at risk? The problem is that the stakes are bigger. You know, we have almost a thousand employees now. Right? So there's a lot more,

29:53

you know, there's the stuff that can go wrong. Do I feel that I've built out a castle with a whole bunch of motes and stuff? Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm better diversified than I was ten years ago, but there's still that kind of dust bowl farmer mentality.

you know, there's the stuff that can go wrong. Do I feel that I've built out a castle with a whole bunch of motes and stuff? Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm better diversified than I was ten years ago, but there's still that kind of dust bowl farmer mentality.

30:06

Right? It's actually something I wanna talk about.

Right? It's actually something I wanna talk about.

30:09

Like, just we all kind of have this feeling of, like,

Like, just we all kind of have this feeling of, like,

30:13

the way I put it is I started chopping wood just because I was anxious. Right? Like, fifteen years ago in my backyard.

the way I put it is I started chopping wood just because I was anxious. Right? Like, fifteen years ago in my backyard.

30:20

And my neighbor pokes his head over the fence, and he's like, hey, Can you chop some wood for me for my fire? I'll give you twenty bucks. And I'm like, okay. Amazing. I didn't know this was a business. And then before I know it, I've hired three or four buddies. We're all chopping wood in the backyard. We're a merry band. We're selling to the whole neighborhood.

And my neighbor pokes his head over the fence, and he's like, hey, Can you chop some wood for me for my fire? I'll give you twenty bucks. And I'm like, okay. Amazing. I didn't know this was a business. And then before I know it, I've hired three or four buddies. We're all chopping wood in the backyard. We're a merry band. We're selling to the whole neighborhood.

30:38

It's awesome. I love it. And then one day, fifteen years later, I wake up and I'm in a saw mill. And I own fifteen saw mills. And all I do all day is file papers. But there's still this part of me that beats myself up for not chopping wood. Right. I still have this mindset. Even though all the machines do all the labor, There's still this part of me that's constantly saying, you need to chop wood. You need to chop wood. And so I think you're gonna, you know, you you guys have this for sure. Like, Doesn't matter how much you have, how diversified, whatever it is. You have a need to do labor, and there's an anxiety that you're harnessing

It's awesome. I love it. And then one day, fifteen years later, I wake up and I'm in a saw mill. And I own fifteen saw mills. And all I do all day is file papers. But there's still this part of me that beats myself up for not chopping wood. Right. I still have this mindset. Even though all the machines do all the labor, There's still this part of me that's constantly saying, you need to chop wood. You need to chop wood. And so I think you're gonna, you know, you you guys have this for sure. Like, Doesn't matter how much you have, how diversified, whatever it is. You have a need to do labor, and there's an anxiety that you're harnessing

31:12

to perform.

to perform.

31:14

That's a good ass analogy.

That's a good ass analogy.

31:17

I'm not gonna lie. The first thirty seconds while you're explaining it, I thought you legitimately took up wood chopping as a hobby And I was like, oh, that's cool.

I'm not gonna lie. The first thirty seconds while you're explaining it, I thought you legitimately took up wood chopping as a hobby And I was like, oh, that's cool.

31:25

It must be, cathartic.

It must be, cathartic.

31:28

And then I realized I was inside of a Charlie Munger

And then I realized I was inside of a Charlie Munger

31:31

Warren Buffett analogy,

Warren Buffett analogy,

31:33

like, parable.

like, parable.

31:36

You have this thing on here that's that's pretty cool. Badguys usually win. As a bad guy myself, I would love to hear how this how this what what you mean by this?

You have this thing on here that's that's pretty cool. Badguys usually win. As a bad guy myself, I would love to hear how this how this what what you mean by this?

31:45

Oh, man. Okay. So Do you think you're a bad guy? I've got I've got a story.

Oh, man. Okay. So Do you think you're a bad guy? I've got I've got a story.

31:50

I don't think you're a bad guy.

I don't think you're a bad guy.

31:52

I think a bad guy is a full on con artist who lies. I call myself a bad guy as my chief man. Rather than calling myself a good guy and having all comments on YouTube. Tell me I'm a bad guy. It's easier just to call myself a bad guy and have people tell me the opposite. Or bad meeting, not bad, meaning bad, but bad meeting good.

I think a bad guy is a full on con artist who lies. I call myself a bad guy as my chief man. Rather than calling myself a good guy and having all comments on YouTube. Tell me I'm a bad guy. It's easier just to call myself a bad guy and have people tell me the opposite. Or bad meeting, not bad, meaning bad, but bad meeting good.

32:10

So I I'm sure you guys have had this experience. I'll kind of anonymize this story. In this case, it's a bad girl. Bad girls usually win. But, so this this happened to me, like, almost ten years ago. I was really overwhelmed. I was running like five businesses. I got introduced to this older woman.

So I I'm sure you guys have had this experience. I'll kind of anonymize this story. In this case, it's a bad girl. Bad girls usually win. But, so this this happened to me, like, almost ten years ago. I was really overwhelmed. I was running like five businesses. I got introduced to this older woman.

32:27

And she had just sold her business for twenty million bucks, super successful. And she kinda says, Hey, I'll mentor you. I'll help you out. And so she comes over to my office. We start whiteboarding, and I'm just like, holy crap. This person is a genius. She could help me so much. And so first, she's an advisor and mentor.

And she had just sold her business for twenty million bucks, super successful. And she kinda says, Hey, I'll mentor you. I'll help you out. And so she comes over to my office. We start whiteboarding, and I'm just like, holy crap. This person is a genius. She could help me so much. And so first, she's an advisor and mentor.

32:44

And then eventually she's like, hey, how about I come in and I'll help you with marketing and sales? And so I inject her into the business. She starts killing it. Like business takes off everything going great.

And then eventually she's like, hey, how about I come in and I'll help you with marketing and sales? And so I inject her into the business. She starts killing it. Like business takes off everything going great.

32:57

But I did zero diligence.

But I did zero diligence.

32:59

Right? She legitimized herself

Right? She legitimized herself

33:01

by being this super successful person.

by being this super successful person.

33:04

And because she was so successful, I was just grateful to have her. She was like a miracle and made all these problems go away for me. And then suddenly the cracks started appearing. So people started saying she was lying.

And because she was so successful, I was just grateful to have her. She was like a miracle and made all these problems go away for me. And then suddenly the cracks started appearing. So people started saying she was lying.

33:16

She was spending money in weird ways. They're, you know, her spenses were out of control,

She was spending money in weird ways. They're, you know, her spenses were out of control,

33:21

you know, staying in crazy hotels, all sorts of stuff. And it turned out that she was lying and like falsifying documents

you know, staying in crazy hotels, all sorts of stuff. And it turned out that she was lying and like falsifying documents

33:29

She hadn't sold her business. She wasn't rich or successful.

She hadn't sold her business. She wasn't rich or successful.

33:33

And when I called a bunch of people that she worked with in the past, like a bunch of them had had terrible experiences. Right? So we fired her. We move on.

And when I called a bunch of people that she worked with in the past, like a bunch of them had had terrible experiences. Right? So we fired her. We move on.

33:41

And I'm in this very odd spot where ethically,

And I'm in this very odd spot where ethically,

33:44

you know, I wanna be like, okay, this is a bad person.

you know, I wanna be like, okay, this is a bad person.

33:47

I wanna shoot up a flare and I wanna be like everybody watch out. Right? And I'm thinking like, okay, you know, people will diligence her. They'll call me. You know, she she won't be able to keep, you know, pulling this off. But legally, I don't know what it's like in the US, but in Canada, when someone calls you for a reference call, you're quite limited. You can basically just say, you know, I wouldn't work with them again and do your diligence. And so I usually say,

I wanna shoot up a flare and I wanna be like everybody watch out. Right? And I'm thinking like, okay, you know, people will diligence her. They'll call me. You know, she she won't be able to keep, you know, pulling this off. But legally, I don't know what it's like in the US, but in Canada, when someone calls you for a reference call, you're quite limited. You can basically just say, you know, I wouldn't work with them again and do your diligence. And so I usually say,

34:11

and I usually, like, I'm not allowed to talk about it.

and I usually, like, I'm not allowed to talk about it.

34:15

And they get the hit. Right. That's smart.

And they get the hit. Right. That's smart.

34:18

I I said a bunch of stuff like that. Like, you know, I would never work with this person again. It's one of the worst professional experiences of my life, whatever. But almost always those people go on to work with them. And you realize these people are just incredibly charming.

I I said a bunch of stuff like that. Like, you know, I would never work with this person again. It's one of the worst professional experiences of my life, whatever. But almost always those people go on to work with them. And you realize these people are just incredibly charming.

34:30

And they always assume you're the bitter ex girlfriend. Right? Cause they've obviously buttered you up and told some story.

And they always assume you're the bitter ex girlfriend. Right? Cause they've obviously buttered you up and told some story.

34:36

And so this woman, you know, I see her on LinkedIn and she's still succeeding and going every year, she's somewhere new. And, you know, people like this, they don't get super rich. They're so short term. If they only knew how much money you could make by not being a crook, they would probably be ethical.

And so this woman, you know, I see her on LinkedIn and she's still succeeding and going every year, she's somewhere new. And, you know, people like this, they don't get super rich. They're so short term. If they only knew how much money you could make by not being a crook, they would probably be ethical.

34:53

But it just it was so sad to me And I wanted my sense of justice was like, I gotta put a stop to this. And you just realized, like, no. Like, you just have to let go. Never wrestle a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it. And so, you know, these people are out there and they continue to succeed. And unless they're Elizabeth Holmes, and they get, you know, the Wall Street Journal, they're fine.

But it just it was so sad to me And I wanted my sense of justice was like, I gotta put a stop to this. And you just realized, like, no. Like, you just have to let go. Never wrestle a pig. You'll both get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it. And so, you know, these people are out there and they continue to succeed. And unless they're Elizabeth Holmes, and they get, you know, the Wall Street Journal, they're fine.

35:17

I wanna know who the person is.

I wanna know who the person is.

35:20

I will never say.

I will never say.

35:23

You had another example of a of a guy, at a famous company who,

You had another example of a of a guy, at a famous company who,

35:28

you know, you had some fraud or you had some issues of people not being honest as well. Remember you told me that about about that one folk?

you know, you had some fraud or you had some issues of people not being honest as well. Remember you told me that about about that one folk?

35:37

I don't know. I don't know which one that is.

I don't know. I don't know which one that is.

35:40

I mean, look at, like, you guys talked about,

I mean, look at, like, you guys talked about,

35:42

Navine Jane,

Navine Jane,

35:44

on a podcast, maybe like ten episodes ago.

on a podcast, maybe like ten episodes ago.

35:47

And I mean, like, there's a perfect example. Right? There's this guy who basically did a pump and dump. That's my understanding, alleged, alleged pump and dump.

And I mean, like, there's a perfect example. Right? There's this guy who basically did a pump and dump. That's my understanding, alleged, alleged pump and dump.

35:56

But these people go on. Right? Unless they're criminally indicted. And even, you know, people who are criminally indicted look at Michael Milkin. Michael Milkin was literally

But these people go on. Right? Unless they're criminally indicted. And even, you know, people who are criminally indicted look at Michael Milkin. Michael Milkin was literally

36:05

front running his own investors,

front running his own investors,

36:07

committing tons of, like, outright fraud that if you were his investor, you would hate went to jail for ten years, and now he's lauded as a philanthropist. I mean, or how about us always win? I mean Do you know this guy? Do you guys so, Gurb I think his name is Gurbash. His

committing tons of, like, outright fraud that if you were his investor, you would hate went to jail for ten years, and now he's lauded as a philanthropist. I mean, or how about us always win? I mean Do you know this guy? Do you guys so, Gurb I think his name is Gurbash. His

36:23

g is what people would call him. He's, I think he's Indian, an Indian guy, Indian American,

g is what people would call him. He's, I think he's Indian, an Indian guy, Indian American,

36:28

And he started a thing called gravity something. What was it called? Gravity gravity four. Gravity four. And then he started another one called, like, radium, blue radium. Is that what it was?

And he started a thing called gravity something. What was it called? Gravity gravity four. Gravity four. And then he started another one called, like, radium, blue radium. Is that what it was?

36:38

And he radium one. And he got arrested.

And he radium one. And he got arrested.

36:42

He was on Oprah as this, like, you know,

He was on Oprah as this, like, you know,

36:45

hundred and fifty million dollar man under a thirty or something like that. Like, the best bachelor, most available bachelor, all this stuff. He's good looking guy. He got in trouble

hundred and fifty million dollar man under a thirty or something like that. Like, the best bachelor, most available bachelor, all this stuff. He's good looking guy. He got in trouble

36:53

three two or three different times. Both times, he basically locked his girlfriend

three two or three different times. Both times, he basically locked his girlfriend

36:58

in

in

36:59

their apartment, and it was there was a camera there. I don't know what he was thinking. And he was hitting her and just being an I mean, he's just a horrible guy, got arrested, spent time in

their apartment, and it was there was a camera there. I don't know what he was thinking. And he was hitting her and just being an I mean, he's just a horrible guy, got arrested, spent time in

37:08

in in,

in in,

37:09

jail months, Got out. Raise money again for starting the same company. Now he's overseas because he's kinda burned all of his bridges here in in San Francisco and America. He's overseas. I think he raised money again for another ad tech company.

jail months, Got out. Raise money again for starting the same company. Now he's overseas because he's kinda burned all of his bridges here in in San Francisco and America. He's overseas. I think he raised money again for another ad tech company.

37:23

This is the hard part is if someone is a I mean, typically someone who does bad things, like, truly unethical things. They're either a psychopath or a narcissist,

This is the hard part is if someone is a I mean, typically someone who does bad things, like, truly unethical things. They're either a psychopath or a narcissist,

37:31

and they're very, very charming. They're very compelling. They're fun to hang out with. They're fascinating. They're great to listen to. It's hard not to like them. I mean, one one actually heuristic after having that experience is I actually had a company that I looked at investing in and I liked the CEO so much and he was so compelling that I didn't invest. Because it made me suspicious

and they're very, very charming. They're very compelling. They're fun to hang out with. They're fascinating. They're great to listen to. It's hard not to like them. I mean, one one actually heuristic after having that experience is I actually had a company that I looked at investing in and I liked the CEO so much and he was so compelling that I didn't invest. Because it made me suspicious

37:53

right or wrong. I was just like, I left the meeting and I was like, I would buy anything from this guy, and I just wanna give him all my money right now. And I stopped myself, and I was like, This is that feeling. Don't invest. Right? I probably made a mistake, but, you know, maybe I'm too concerned, but it's crazy. The same I'm the same way, and I'll I'm willing to throw out the good with the bad just to steer clear of the bad because I know how intoxicating

right or wrong. I was just like, I left the meeting and I was like, I would buy anything from this guy, and I just wanna give him all my money right now. And I stopped myself, and I was like, This is that feeling. Don't invest. Right? I probably made a mistake, but, you know, maybe I'm too concerned, but it's crazy. The same I'm the same way, and I'll I'm willing to throw out the good with the bad just to steer clear of the bad because I know how intoxicating

38:16

that type of grifter is.

that type of grifter is.

38:18

And, you know, I've actually put in some, like, you you talk about air gapping for, like, you know, security purposes. I've now done that on on decision making for some investments as well. Like, so Andrew, you sent out an email

And, you know, I've actually put in some, like, you you talk about air gapping for, like, you know, security purposes. I've now done that on on decision making for some investments as well. Like, so Andrew, you sent out an email

38:30

to to some of me, Sam, or a couple others. About a business that you're raising money for. And it's a really great email. Like, it's a truly great email. I gotta give you a lot of credit

to to some of me, Sam, or a couple others. About a business that you're raising money for. And it's a really great email. Like, it's a truly great email. I gotta give you a lot of credit

38:39

and I actually wanted to ask you Sam, some help me with it. Oh, we can't see what goes into writing an email like that. I hired the master copywriter.

and I actually wanted to ask you Sam, some help me with it. Oh, we can't see what goes into writing an email like that. I hired the master copywriter.

38:46

The secret weapon. Okay.

The secret weapon. Okay.

38:49

I barely touched it. I barely

I barely touched it. I barely

38:52

touched it. I barely touched it.

touched it. I barely touched it.

38:58

And it wasn't it wasn't like, oh, the writing. Wow. This this sentence structure was so fantastic. Right? Obviously, that helps. But it was the thinking. It was the way of framing the business and opportunities telling how you stumbled into the opportunity.

And it wasn't it wasn't like, oh, the writing. Wow. This this sentence structure was so fantastic. Right? Obviously, that helps. But it was the thinking. It was the way of framing the business and opportunities telling how you stumbled into the opportunity.

39:10

What type, you know, like your your analogy to, you know, complete this if you want to to Chipotle. Like, you really did a good job of framing this business.

What type, you know, like your your analogy to, you know, complete this if you want to to Chipotle. Like, you really did a good job of framing this business.

39:18

And it was so good. In fact, that I said, I am not gonna reply to this for, like, at least forty eight hours because

And it was so good. In fact, that I said, I am not gonna reply to this for, like, at least forty eight hours because

39:25

If I read this email, I'm gonna say, give this person my money instantly. Like, it was almost like whatever out of ten the business opportunity was. It was a ten out of ten

If I read this email, I'm gonna say, give this person my money instantly. Like, it was almost like whatever out of ten the business opportunity was. It was a ten out of ten

39:34

like, pitch.

like, pitch.

39:35

And I actually

And I actually

39:36

when I look back at businesses that that I invest in that I that go on to do well, it's usually

when I look back at businesses that that I invest in that I that go on to do well, it's usually

39:42

Actually, I had nine out of ten business opportunity,

Actually, I had nine out of ten business opportunity,

39:45

with a, you know, sort of five out of ten pitch. And in fact, it's only midway through the conversation with this person that I'm Oh, wait. So you basically have x. And they're like, yeah. I'm like, oh, why didn't you just say that? And they're like, well, no. I did kind of. Right? And I was like, Oh, dude, you have no idea how to pitch your own business,

with a, you know, sort of five out of ten pitch. And in fact, it's only midway through the conversation with this person that I'm Oh, wait. So you basically have x. And they're like, yeah. I'm like, oh, why didn't you just say that? And they're like, well, no. I did kind of. Right? And I was like, Oh, dude, you have no idea how to pitch your own business,

40:02

but that, to me, once that happens, I know, wow. I'm actually, like,

but that, to me, once that happens, I know, wow. I'm actually, like,

40:06

I underweighted the opportunity because the pitch was so bad versus overweighting a business opportunity because the pitch is so good. And that's become like a a standard practice. Yours was just one example, but that's become a standard practice for me of, like,

I underweighted the opportunity because the pitch was so bad versus overweighting a business opportunity because the pitch is so good. And that's become like a a standard practice. Yours was just one example, but that's become a standard practice for me of, like,

40:19

beware of the ten out of ten pitch. Be aware of the ten out of ten charm person that you wanna hire, or that's gonna help you with your business?

beware of the ten out of ten pitch. Be aware of the ten out of ten charm person that you wanna hire, or that's gonna help you with your business?

40:28

The biggest one that I've seen is you get this Uber charming pitch and then you say, okay. What could go wrong? And they say nothing.

The biggest one that I've seen is you get this Uber charming pitch and then you say, okay. What could go wrong? And they say nothing.

40:35

Right? And you're just like, no. This is insane. This is terrifying.

Right? And you're just like, no. This is insane. This is terrifying.

40:39

I've had, like, five or six different pitches where that was the one signal and it went to zero or bankrupt or criminal. How's the news business going?

I've had, like, five or six different pitches where that was the one signal and it went to zero or bankrupt or criminal. How's the news business going?

40:50

It's good. It's really good. Actually, we just,

It's good. It's really good. Actually, we just,

40:53

hit a profit in my hometown in Victoria, our first market.

hit a profit in my hometown in Victoria, our first market.

40:57

We're now in eight different cities, and I'm super stoked about it as you can witness,

We're now in eight different cities, and I'm super stoked about it as you can witness,

41:03

based on that email. That email, how

based on that email. That email, how

41:06

How quickly does because

How quickly does because

41:08

you might have a knack for just understanding and framing businesses. That's probably a superpower of yours. I think he has that. How quickly did come together for you.

you might have a knack for just understanding and framing businesses. That's probably a superpower of yours. I think he has that. How quickly did come together for you.

41:17

How quickly did I write it? Well, I mean, it's something I've been thinking about and kinda talking about a little bit publicly for two or three years now. So I I had all the analogies and stuff formed.

How quickly did I write it? Well, I mean, it's something I've been thinking about and kinda talking about a little bit publicly for two or three years now. So I I had all the analogies and stuff formed.

41:29

But, I mean, I wrote that in, like, an hour or two. And then Sam just helped me touch it up. And then my typical writing structure is I'll write something. It'll first draft. And then I'll sit with it for two weeks or something like that. So I sat with it for a week, and then finally I sent it out. But it's crazy. Like, I don't know if you guys get this. Something that drives me insane is I get all these emails from people who are raising money,

But, I mean, I wrote that in, like, an hour or two. And then Sam just helped me touch it up. And then my typical writing structure is I'll write something. It'll first draft. And then I'll sit with it for two weeks or something like that. So I sat with it for a week, and then finally I sent it out. But it's crazy. Like, I don't know if you guys get this. Something that drives me insane is I get all these emails from people who are raising money,

41:52

and it's literally just a template. Like, it almost looks like they're sending it out with Salesforce or something the formatting is wrong. It's generic. It's not properly addressed to me. And I always think, like, what I was trying to do with that email is I wanted the first sentence to hook you. And so I think the first sentence in that email was in twenty nineteen, I was pissed off. Right? And then, Dave, you know, line one, you're like, what's he pissed off, but what's going on. Right? There's a bit of a hook. Nobody knows how to use those copywriting tools to pitch in written form. I think a lot of people are very good at pitching

and it's literally just a template. Like, it almost looks like they're sending it out with Salesforce or something the formatting is wrong. It's generic. It's not properly addressed to me. And I always think, like, what I was trying to do with that email is I wanted the first sentence to hook you. And so I think the first sentence in that email was in twenty nineteen, I was pissed off. Right? And then, Dave, you know, line one, you're like, what's he pissed off, but what's going on. Right? There's a bit of a hook. Nobody knows how to use those copywriting tools to pitch in written form. I think a lot of people are very good at pitching

42:25

you know, in a in a actual pitch setting or whatever.

you know, in a in a actual pitch setting or whatever.

42:28

But yeah, it's been it's been a great tool to be able to do those tweet storms and emails and stuff. The most important sentence of of anything you write. It's the it's the first sentence. That's the subject. Well, I love that one. What's the line that you said?

But yeah, it's been it's been a great tool to be able to do those tweet storms and emails and stuff. The most important sentence of of anything you write. It's the it's the first sentence. That's the subject. Well, I love that one. What's the line that you said?

42:42

Let me be very clear. Right? And you're just like, oh, shit. Like, this person means business. What's going on here?

Let me be very clear. Right? And you're just like, oh, shit. Like, this person means business. What's going on here?

42:49

Yeah. Same is fucking good at this. And in fact, I made the criminal mistake when I asked you this question, which is if you go to Michael Jordan and you say, Mike, how do you jump so high?

Yeah. Same is fucking good at this. And in fact, I made the criminal mistake when I asked you this question, which is if you go to Michael Jordan and you say, Mike, how do you jump so high?

43:00

He'll if he's being nice, he'll try to answer something something,

He'll if he's being nice, he'll try to answer something something,

43:03

but it's not gonna actually tell you in the same thing. How do you, you know, Steph? Steph Curry, how How do you shoot your jump shot to be, and how do you how do you shoot better than anybody else?

but it's not gonna actually tell you in the same thing. How do you, you know, Steph? Steph Curry, how How do you shoot your jump shot to be, and how do you how do you shoot better than anybody else?

43:12

People who are truly great at something, they have very low awareness to the actual, like, how, why, and what

People who are truly great at something, they have very low awareness to the actual, like, how, why, and what

43:20

is making it so great.

is making it so great.

43:22

And there there is a way to ask questions about greatness But it's not how do you do the thing you're great at, because people will sort of fumble around and and they'll try to tell you something. But it's it it really has nothing to do with with how they do the great thing. Like, for example,

And there there is a way to ask questions about greatness But it's not how do you do the thing you're great at, because people will sort of fumble around and and they'll try to tell you something. But it's it it really has nothing to do with with how they do the great thing. Like, for example,

43:36

What you did great in that,

What you did great in that,

43:38

email was first you decided to not make it a template. That decision probably comes from you some view your some way that you view the world and, like, that you, observation you had about pitches that we're coming to that most people just don't have. The second thing was when you frame the business, you knew you used the analogy of, like, these local franchises.

email was first you decided to not make it a template. That decision probably comes from you some view your some way that you view the world and, like, that you, observation you had about pitches that we're coming to that most people just don't have. The second thing was when you frame the business, you knew you used the analogy of, like, these local franchises.

43:56

That was because you had studied other other great businesses. Just for fun, you probably studied the business of Chipotle and McDonald's and other businesses, not that you were ever gonna start a restaurant. But you stored that somewhere in the recesses of your mind. And so when you saw something else, that was a local franchise,

That was because you had studied other other great businesses. Just for fun, you probably studied the business of Chipotle and McDonald's and other businesses, not that you were ever gonna start a restaurant. But you stored that somewhere in the recesses of your mind. And so when you saw something else, that was a local franchise,

44:11

you knew how to, like, apply that. And and so, like, you know, it's very hard to actually describe

you knew how to, like, apply that. And and so, like, you know, it's very hard to actually describe

44:18

what goes into

what goes into

44:20

the art of making that happen. Right.

the art of making that happen. Right.

44:22

Well, not only that, but being able to communicate a moat, you know, why does this have a competitive advantage? And in this email, I kinda go through the history of the news business, local news. Why local news is so much more, why it has a better moat. Right? And you think about it and you go, why would that be interesting? You know, fifty thousand people to three hundred thousand person cities, that seems like a small market. But in reality, it's the stuff nobody wants. You're fishing where the fish are off the beaten path, and you can dominate a local market You've always done this. So I actually read your email,

Well, not only that, but being able to communicate a moat, you know, why does this have a competitive advantage? And in this email, I kinda go through the history of the news business, local news. Why local news is so much more, why it has a better moat. Right? And you think about it and you go, why would that be interesting? You know, fifty thousand people to three hundred thousand person cities, that seems like a small market. But in reality, it's the stuff nobody wants. You're fishing where the fish are off the beaten path, and you can dominate a local market You've always done this. So I actually read your email,

44:54

when I was when you sent it to me in Google Drive, and I was like, oh, this is really good. I'm gonna I was putting together this course where I just, like, aggregate good writing and I sent it to people. And I was like, oh, I gotta I'm gonna use some more of a stuff what's out there. And I went and read all your stuff on medium, and I think there's like ten or twelve things or something. And you follow the same format over and over again, which you it's it's you clearly are influenced by Warren Buffett and, you're influenced by, like, traditional storytelling tech techniques, but if you go to your medium, you're actually,

when I was when you sent it to me in Google Drive, and I was like, oh, this is really good. I'm gonna I was putting together this course where I just, like, aggregate good writing and I sent it to people. And I was like, oh, I gotta I'm gonna use some more of a stuff what's out there. And I went and read all your stuff on medium, and I think there's like ten or twelve things or something. And you follow the same format over and over again, which you it's it's you clearly are influenced by Warren Buffett and, you're influenced by, like, traditional storytelling tech techniques, but if you go to your medium, you're actually,

45:26

pitching your business on medium constantly. You're just not actually there's just no call to action. So you don't actually care if it seals a deal, but there's, like, things where your cat you're you have a headline called. So

pitching your business on medium constantly. You're just not actually there's just no call to action. So you don't actually care if it seals a deal, but there's, like, things where your cat you're you have a headline called. So

45:37

you didn't mean to do this, but you could have done this. So it could have been we're raising a million dollars for our company, but instead you made the headline.

you didn't mean to do this, but you could have done this. So it could have been we're raising a million dollars for our company, but instead you made the headline.

45:44

We're,

We're,

45:46

you you should the headline was Joe rogan

you you should the headline was Joe rogan

45:49

could be the world's first podcasting billionaire. Is that what it was that? Was that it? No. It was he got rid of Joe rogan. First is Joe rogan got ripped off, which is funny because he just signed a hundred and twenty million dollars. Yeah. That's what it was. Counter.

could be the world's first podcasting billionaire. Is that what it was that? Was that it? No. It was he got rid of Joe rogan. First is Joe rogan got ripped off, which is funny because he just signed a hundred and twenty million dollars. Yeah. That's what it was. Counter.

46:02

So that was it was a good ass headline, and then you explain.

So that was it was a good ass headline, and then you explain.

46:05

So the the emotion there was shock, which always does really well. So you're shocked. Like, what the hell? You're saying that he got low ball hundred billion dollars is so much money. And you're like, no. See, it's nonsense. You see, Howard Cern does this. Broken could have done this. It just so happens that we have a company that does that. That's how I know about it. And then, like, if you wanted a call to action, so you have your attention interest desire already there. If you want your action to make this a full ADA formula, you could have been like, PS for, of course, you can't do this. It's illegal, but you go to the PS for raising money for our company.

So the the emotion there was shock, which always does really well. So you're shocked. Like, what the hell? You're saying that he got low ball hundred billion dollars is so much money. And you're like, no. See, it's nonsense. You see, Howard Cern does this. Broken could have done this. It just so happens that we have a company that does that. That's how I know about it. And then, like, if you wanted a call to action, so you have your attention interest desire already there. If you want your action to make this a full ADA formula, you could have been like, PS for, of course, you can't do this. It's illegal, but you go to the PS for raising money for our company.

46:34

And See, this is this is, like, you've you've always said, like, the most valuable skill is complicated. I think both of you guys have said that, like, a hundred percent. I I truck up the only reason Metalab worked was because we would pick fights, we'd write these controversial articles,

And See, this is this is, like, you've you've always said, like, the most valuable skill is complicated. I think both of you guys have said that, like, a hundred percent. I I truck up the only reason Metalab worked was because we would pick fights, we'd write these controversial articles,

46:49

and we knew how to, like, we I I if there's one thing I'm good at, it's just like, taking,

and we knew how to, like, we I I if there's one thing I'm good at, it's just like, taking,

46:56

taking a boring topic and just finding a wedge and getting people going on it, and that always results in

taking a boring topic and just finding a wedge and getting people going on it, and that always results in

47:02

people knowing of you and passing your name around and you become a topic of conversation

people knowing of you and passing your name around and you become a topic of conversation

47:07

and it led in our case to lots of client work and other stuff. So if I think everyone needs to read the book made to stick. That was the book that, like, really clicked for me. I don't know if you guys ever got one. Dan and Chip Heath. That is Stanford. They talk about this

and it led in our case to lots of client work and other stuff. So if I think everyone needs to read the book made to stick. That was the book that, like, really clicked for me. I don't know if you guys ever got one. Dan and Chip Heath. That is Stanford. They talk about this

47:20

Totally. And it's that one, that first line, the first line just has to hit you. The,

Totally. And it's that one, that first line, the first line just has to hit you. The,

47:25

the best thing you do. So so I think if I was gonna break it down, the middle of your writing is is, like, inspired by or influenced by, you know, some some ways Warren Buffett, But you're he his stuff is very dry. Right? Lauren Buffett grew up without the clickbait generation. He doesn't need to to do that.

the best thing you do. So so I think if I was gonna break it down, the middle of your writing is is, like, inspired by or influenced by, you know, some some ways Warren Buffett, But you're he his stuff is very dry. Right? Lauren Buffett grew up without the clickbait generation. He doesn't need to to do that.

47:41

But, like, thirty seven signals. So, like, with DHA, you're Jason Free, like, To me, your writing is so similar to theirs that I can tell, you know, that was like a, you know, pretty major influence on it. And one thing that they do amazingly well is they

But, like, thirty seven signals. So, like, with DHA, you're Jason Free, like, To me, your writing is so similar to theirs that I can tell, you know, that was like a, you know, pretty major influence on it. And one thing that they do amazingly well is they

47:55

they will basically pick a fight while simultaneously

they will basically pick a fight while simultaneously

47:58

taking the moral high ground. And I think you do that amazingly well too. What I mean by that is

taking the moral high ground. And I think you do that amazingly well too. What I mean by that is

48:04

you'll say, like, you know, Joe rogan got ripped off, but you're not you're not criticizing Joe rogan. You're actually saying,

you'll say, like, you know, Joe rogan got ripped off, but you're not you're not criticizing Joe rogan. You're actually saying,

48:10

you know, Joe, you you sold yourself short. And an artist and a creator like you should not sell yourself short for some to some company who's gonna take advantage of you here. And so you're taking the moral high ground while picking, you know, going against the grain and, like, sort of doing a call out, which is amazing. Most callouts just Basically, it's somebody, you know, slingshotting from the crowd.

you know, Joe, you you sold yourself short. And an artist and a creator like you should not sell yourself short for some to some company who's gonna take advantage of you here. And so you're taking the moral high ground while picking, you know, going against the grain and, like, sort of doing a call out, which is amazing. Most callouts just Basically, it's somebody, you know, slingshotting from the crowd.

48:32

And, you know, there's sort of a sniper that's, like, you know, angry at them. And so I've never been able to do this, but I've noticed that you do this and thirty seven sequels does this amazing. Well, they say Facebook is overvalued,

And, you know, there's sort of a sniper that's, like, you know, angry at them. And so I've never been able to do this, but I've noticed that you do this and thirty seven sequels does this amazing. Well, they say Facebook is overvalued,

48:42

and they'll talk about why Facebook is overvalued, and then they'll talk about, you know, like, we sorry. We're we're just the kind of guys that, like, businesses that have actual revenues and profits. But, oh, you know, call us crazy. And so they're they're they're taking the moral high ground and they're saying that this Facebook valued at at the time. I remember it was famously like billions of I would I would argue I would argue those guys would not be where they are today without copyright. Not a doubt. And I think that's like the sawdust from their saw mill. Right? It's like, Hey, we got fucked on the app store. What would most people do? Okay. We'll just go in with Apple. They use that as the biggest marketing opportunity ever. They were on every talk show. They were their names were everywhere. I mean, they also got kinda canceled as well. So there's a cost to that, but, they've done an amazing job. And that's a hundred percent where I learned it. I I worship those guys for years. I call it, like, the Malcolm Gladwell effect. So with Malcolm Gladwell, you, read his books, and you have to remember that a lot of what he's saying is just theory. There's no There's some proof that it's real, but it's it's not proven.

and they'll talk about why Facebook is overvalued, and then they'll talk about, you know, like, we sorry. We're we're just the kind of guys that, like, businesses that have actual revenues and profits. But, oh, you know, call us crazy. And so they're they're they're taking the moral high ground and they're saying that this Facebook valued at at the time. I remember it was famously like billions of I would I would argue I would argue those guys would not be where they are today without copyright. Not a doubt. And I think that's like the sawdust from their saw mill. Right? It's like, Hey, we got fucked on the app store. What would most people do? Okay. We'll just go in with Apple. They use that as the biggest marketing opportunity ever. They were on every talk show. They were their names were everywhere. I mean, they also got kinda canceled as well. So there's a cost to that, but, they've done an amazing job. And that's a hundred percent where I learned it. I I worship those guys for years. I call it, like, the Malcolm Gladwell effect. So with Malcolm Gladwell, you, read his books, and you have to remember that a lot of what he's saying is just theory. There's no There's some proof that it's real, but it's it's not proven.

49:38

And, but he's such a good storyteller that you think, like, oh, what you're saying is just a fact, like, is he have you heard a story about David Goliath? It's wonderful. And he likes to he he's like, actually, David Goliath wasn't that hard of a contest because turns out Goliath was like, mentally,

And, but he's such a good storyteller that you think, like, oh, what you're saying is just a fact, like, is he have you heard a story about David Goliath? It's wonderful. And he likes to he he's like, actually, David Goliath wasn't that hard of a contest because turns out Goliath was like, mentally,

49:53

challenged or, like, had some issues where he, like, and he's also blind. He couldn't see. He he had, like, he had this thing where he was so big that it ruined it had, like, giganticism or something like that. So and then also, like, David was a shepherd, and they're actually so good at throwing these rocks that they could take a bird out of the sky. So it's really, like, just basically taking a a big dumb, blind giant, and shooting him in the head with a gun. That's not hard. And, like, that's his argument about he's like, David Goliath, it's it's nonsense.

challenged or, like, had some issues where he, like, and he's also blind. He couldn't see. He he had, like, he had this thing where he was so big that it ruined it had, like, giganticism or something like that. So and then also, like, David was a shepherd, and they're actually so good at throwing these rocks that they could take a bird out of the sky. So it's really, like, just basically taking a a big dumb, blind giant, and shooting him in the head with a gun. That's not hard. And, like, that's his argument about he's like, David Goliath, it's it's nonsense.

50:16

And

And

50:18

Is he right? I don't there's no proof who knows. Is David Clark even real? We only would know that. But you, like, hear this story that changes you, but the problem that I have with base camp and other good and this is something that you have to be really careful of. I I I work on it all the time. I'm like, I can be such a good storyteller that I can get you to think that something's real, even though, like, I'll tell you, but there's no proof. But, like, I'm gonna write it in such a way and basecamp does this all the time where they say, well, well, they'll write something and I'm like, oh, this is the truth, this is how the world is. When it's like, well, no. Let's let's not forget. This is an opinion.

Is he right? I don't there's no proof who knows. Is David Clark even real? We only would know that. But you, like, hear this story that changes you, but the problem that I have with base camp and other good and this is something that you have to be really careful of. I I I work on it all the time. I'm like, I can be such a good storyteller that I can get you to think that something's real, even though, like, I'll tell you, but there's no proof. But, like, I'm gonna write it in such a way and basecamp does this all the time where they say, well, well, they'll write something and I'm like, oh, this is the truth, this is how the world is. When it's like, well, no. Let's let's not forget. This is an opinion.

50:48

Right.

Right.

50:49

Totally. And there's lots of nuance and going back to what we're talking about with bootstrapping. I I read all their stuff I drank the Kool Aid, and I, you know, I love those guys. They've built an amazing business, but you can't just have that perspective. It's very months. There's there's so, you know, like I said, there's so many situations where it is logical to raise money. And if you talked to DHH ten years ago, he'd say, Salesforce at Facebook will be bankrupt in ten years, and this doesn't make sense. And again, I love these guys, and I know them both. They're awesome guys. A huge fan, wouldn't have built my business without them. But, I do think they they present everything in a very black and white way, which I think benefits them in a because it makes it more compelling. No one wants to hear nuance.

Totally. And there's lots of nuance and going back to what we're talking about with bootstrapping. I I read all their stuff I drank the Kool Aid, and I, you know, I love those guys. They've built an amazing business, but you can't just have that perspective. It's very months. There's there's so, you know, like I said, there's so many situations where it is logical to raise money. And if you talked to DHH ten years ago, he'd say, Salesforce at Facebook will be bankrupt in ten years, and this doesn't make sense. And again, I love these guys, and I know them both. They're awesome guys. A huge fan, wouldn't have built my business without them. But, I do think they they present everything in a very black and white way, which I think benefits them in a because it makes it more compelling. No one wants to hear nuance.

51:30

This has been a good pod. What do you think, Sean?

This has been a good pod. What do you think, Sean?

51:33

Yeah. It was good. There's I mean, there's a couple others we wanted to do, but we're way over. We should, we should wrap it and do another one soon. I know. We didn't get it. Yeah. I think we got, like, we have, like, we have, like, twenty topics to do.

Yeah. It was good. There's I mean, there's a couple others we wanted to do, but we're way over. We should, we should wrap it and do another one soon. I know. We didn't get it. Yeah. I think we got, like, we have, like, we have, like, twenty topics to do.

51:45

Be happy. I should probably ask about that one. Like, I would like to be happy.

Be happy. I should probably ask about that one. Like, I would like to be happy.

51:50

And then the Jamie Dyson thing, there was the whole you wanted to come on because you're like, I read this book about Dyson. I wanna come talk about it. We didn't even talk about it.

And then the Jamie Dyson thing, there was the whole you wanted to come on because you're like, I read this book about Dyson. I wanna come talk about it. We didn't even talk about it.

51:59

Oh, man. I'm so excited to talk about him. He's incredible. Alright. Well, let's do let's do another one. Unless you have we could keep going if you want. But otherwise, let's do another one and, we'll do Dyson and some others.

Oh, man. I'm so excited to talk about him. He's incredible. Alright. Well, let's do let's do another one. Unless you have we could keep going if you want. But otherwise, let's do another one and, we'll do Dyson and some others.

52:08

Yeah. I gotta I gotta roll. I gotta lunch in twelve minutes. Alright, man. Good. Good. Good, sweetie.

Yeah. I gotta I gotta roll. I gotta lunch in twelve minutes. Alright, man. Good. Good. Good, sweetie.

52:13

K. See you guys. That was fun.

K. See you guys. That was fun.

Sync with video