00:00

Alright. I've been chasing this guest today for six months, begging him to come on the podcast because I heard him on a podcast last year, and

Alright. I've been chasing this guest today for six months, begging him to come on the podcast because I heard him on a podcast last year, and

00:07

as much as this breaks my heart to say it, that was my favorite business podcast of the year. And it wasn't even our own, but he was so good that I asked him to come on. His name is Jeremy Giffon. He is,

as much as this breaks my heart to say it, that was my favorite business podcast of the year. And it wasn't even our own, but he was so good that I asked him to come on. His name is Jeremy Giffon. He is,

00:17

he was the first employee at tiny, which if ever he listens to the podcast, we've had Andrew Wilkinson on many, many times, they basically turned five million dollars of starting money

he was the first employee at tiny, which if ever he listens to the podcast, we've had Andrew Wilkinson on many, many times, they basically turned five million dollars of starting money

00:25

into about five hundred million dollars of equity just by buying businesses that cash flow. So they bought, you know, small businesses that cash flow kept recycling, recycling, recycling, recycling over ten years turned into five hundred million. So I wanted to ask him, what was it like in the early days? What were those first deals like He was there before they even had a name before they were even even called tiny. So we asked him about his best deals, his worst deals, the weirdest deals he's ever done negotiating tech tactics he learned. This episode is amazing. It's a ten out of ten for me. Enjoy this episode with Jeremy.

into about five hundred million dollars of equity just by buying businesses that cash flow. So they bought, you know, small businesses that cash flow kept recycling, recycling, recycling, recycling over ten years turned into five hundred million. So I wanted to ask him, what was it like in the early days? What were those first deals like He was there before they even had a name before they were even even called tiny. So we asked him about his best deals, his worst deals, the weirdest deals he's ever done negotiating tech tactics he learned. This episode is amazing. It's a ten out of ten for me. Enjoy this episode with Jeremy.

00:57

What's

What's

01:01

up, Jeremy. Welcome to

up, Jeremy. Welcome to

01:06

show. We figure we've,

show. We figure we've,

01:08

we've had your mentor on enough times now. Andrew, he's probably the the most popular guest on the show.

we've had your mentor on enough times now. Andrew, he's probably the the most popular guest on the show.

01:14

Enough of Andrew. We gotta go to his protege. We gotta go to the young gun who was there from the beginning and, and have you on. Welcome to welcome to the show, man. Thanks for having me, guys. Let's put tiny into context, because I think maybe somebody listened to this, doesn't doesn't actually appreciate what we're talking about tiny. The simple story of tiny is,

Enough of Andrew. We gotta go to his protege. We gotta go to the young gun who was there from the beginning and, and have you on. Welcome to welcome to the show, man. Thanks for having me, guys. Let's put tiny into context, because I think maybe somebody listened to this, doesn't doesn't actually appreciate what we're talking about tiny. The simple story of tiny is,

01:32

They had a services business and agency, and then they had excess profits. And I think you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the numbers were something like they took five or six million dollars of initial initial equity.

They had a services business and agency, and then they had excess profits. And I think you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the numbers were something like they took five or six million dollars of initial initial equity.

01:42

And they put that into tiny, and we're like, okay, we're gonna go try to buy a business with this. And they've ended up turning five or six million of initial startup

And they put that into tiny, and we're like, okay, we're gonna go try to buy a business with this. And they've ended up turning five or six million of initial startup

01:50

capital

capital

01:51

into roughly a five hundred, six hundred million dollar public company where they own, you know, tiny owns maybe a portfolio of thirty or something like that over over roughly,

into roughly a five hundred, six hundred million dollar public company where they own, you know, tiny owns maybe a portfolio of thirty or something like that over over roughly,

02:01

ten eight years.

ten eight years.

02:02

Yeah. Eight year period. So kind of amazing. In eight years, turn five million dollars to five hundred million dollars, Okay. I'm I'm doing round math here fuzzy fuzzy numbers, but

Yeah. Eight year period. So kind of amazing. In eight years, turn five million dollars to five hundred million dollars, Okay. I'm I'm doing round math here fuzzy fuzzy numbers, but

02:11

first of all, is that the is that the right math? Is that roughly the right story?

first of all, is that the is that the right math? Is that roughly the right story?

02:15

And,

And,

02:16

and then, you know, walk us through the beginning days of that because you were there at the very beginning at nineteen, twenty years old, employee kind of number one there, walk us through that.

and then, you know, walk us through the beginning days of that because you were there at the very beginning at nineteen, twenty years old, employee kind of number one there, walk us through that.

02:25

Yeah. So I I knew Andrew because when he was starting Metalab and I was working on another startup, we shared the studio apartment, our office was in a studio apartment,

Yeah. So I I knew Andrew because when he was starting Metalab and I was working on another startup, we shared the studio apartment, our office was in a studio apartment,

02:35

and, he was in, like, the bedroom area, and we were in the the kitchen, and we would keep a keep a blow up mattress in case the fire guy came around, and we would just say, oh, you know, Andrew lives here, but I just have a lot of friends over, you know, working on stuff.

and, he was in, like, the bedroom area, and we were in the the kitchen, and we would keep a keep a blow up mattress in case the fire guy came around, and we would just say, oh, you know, Andrew lives here, but I just have a lot of friends over, you know, working on stuff.

02:49

And, yeah, I mean, effectively, like, Metalab, the store the short version is Metalab, you know, was throwing off a fair amount of free cash flow. I think it was in that range of you know, low millions a year,

And, yeah, I mean, effectively, like, Metalab, the store the short version is Metalab, you know, was throwing off a fair amount of free cash flow. I think it was in that range of you know, low millions a year,

03:00

and the idea was just to go use that free cash flow to buy buy a business and you know, that's the thing with agencies. Right? Like, there's not a lot of reinvestment. So you gotta do something with the cash. And if you're not gonna put in the S and P, like, that's too boring or whatever, then you gotta figure out something to do with it.

and the idea was just to go use that free cash flow to buy buy a business and you know, that's the thing with agencies. Right? Like, there's not a lot of reinvestment. So you gotta do something with the cash. And if you're not gonna put in the S and P, like, that's too boring or whatever, then you gotta figure out something to do with it.

03:17

And so that's that's kinda what we did. It's funny, people, a lot of people hold codes and stuff are really popular now, and people, you know, a lot of people ask how do I build tiny effectively.

And so that's that's kinda what we did. It's funny, people, a lot of people hold codes and stuff are really popular now, and people, you know, a lot of people ask how do I build tiny effectively.

03:26

And the first step is like, well, you know, bootstrap a business that makes millions of dollars free cash flow and then, like, get back to me. The the rest is, like, pretty easy, and that's the first start. And you said it took eight years in reality, I think Metalab,

And the first step is like, well, you know, bootstrap a business that makes millions of dollars free cash flow and then, like, get back to me. The the rest is, like, pretty easy, and that's the first start. And you said it took eight years in reality, I think Metalab,

03:38

the agency. That was already eight years older. I don't I don't know what it was, but Yeah. That's right. Metalab is probably fifteen, sixteen years old now. So it was a long a long slog. I mean, Andrew just started really young. Was also one thing that's really helpful is Andrew and Chris, and myself. I mean, we were all big users and fans of dribble,

the agency. That was already eight years older. I don't I don't know what it was, but Yeah. That's right. Metalab is probably fifteen, sixteen years old now. So it was a long a long slog. I mean, Andrew just started really young. Was also one thing that's really helpful is Andrew and Chris, and myself. I mean, we were all big users and fans of dribble,

03:57

and,

and,

03:58

And we Andrew really had that company in mind for a long time, which I think is another really nice thing to have. Like, it's very good to start with a deal. Even when, like, even when you're fundraising or whatever to to actually have a concrete thing that you wanna go do and use that as the jumping off point for, you know, building whatever it is. I think it's always so much better to have that than to kind of be, like, abstractly, oh, I'm gonna start a funder. I'm gonna start a holding company or whatever.

And we Andrew really had that company in mind for a long time, which I think is another really nice thing to have. Like, it's very good to start with a deal. Even when, like, even when you're fundraising or whatever to to actually have a concrete thing that you wanna go do and use that as the jumping off point for, you know, building whatever it is. I think it's always so much better to have that than to kind of be, like, abstractly, oh, I'm gonna start a funder. I'm gonna start a holding company or whatever.

04:20

And so it was, like, Dribble's really cool.

And so it was, like, Dribble's really cool.

04:24

We would love to we would be the right owners for that.

We would love to we would be the right owners for that.

04:27

Andrew knew the co founders there, and

Andrew knew the co founders there, and

04:30

maybe we could buy that, and that would be a starting off point. And it's all very, like, real and concrete versus the we're gonna build a holding company of technology businesses or something like that. Now you're three guys who've never bought a business before.

maybe we could buy that, and that would be a starting off point. And it's all very, like, real and concrete versus the we're gonna build a holding company of technology businesses or something like that. Now you're three guys who've never bought a business before.

04:42

Take me back to you're sitting in the the the kitchen or whatever of your apartment slash office slash hangout lounge.

Take me back to you're sitting in the the the kitchen or whatever of your apartment slash office slash hangout lounge.

04:49

Are you guys like, hey, can we, like, buy, like, buying businesses for Domino's? Like, how did you even figure out how to do it. And also if this is a good idea, because it's a big risk. Right? I think, you know, probably four, five million bucks of equity went into that deal. That's, like, kind of, like, that's a big deal. That's not like a couple hundred grand, at that stage. So, like, what were those conversations like at the meeting as much as best as you can remember?

Are you guys like, hey, can we, like, buy, like, buying businesses for Domino's? Like, how did you even figure out how to do it. And also if this is a good idea, because it's a big risk. Right? I think, you know, probably four, five million bucks of equity went into that deal. That's, like, kind of, like, that's a big deal. That's not like a couple hundred grand, at that stage. So, like, what were those conversations like at the meeting as much as best as you can remember?

05:11

Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, like anything

Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, like anything

05:15

there's generally one way that you can categorize sellers. It's people who care about what happens to the business after they sell it and people who don't.

there's generally one way that you can categorize sellers. It's people who care about what happens to the business after they sell it and people who don't.

05:22

And, certainly for people who care, it's a lot about it's this huge trust exercise of, you know, are you gonna screw up my baby? Like, their case, they've been working on it for a really long time. Their names are very attached to it. There was a big community community businesses are really difficult. You know, the community can really turn on you fast.

And, certainly for people who care, it's a lot about it's this huge trust exercise of, you know, are you gonna screw up my baby? Like, their case, they've been working on it for a really long time. Their names are very attached to it. There was a big community community businesses are really difficult. You know, the community can really turn on you fast.

05:40

And so, yeah, there's that whole piece. And then mechanically,

And so, yeah, there's that whole piece. And then mechanically,

05:43

yeah, it was literally, like, I don't think we even had a book. We just looked it up online. Like, I would literally go on legal depot and, like, get a LOI

yeah, it was literally, like, I don't think we even had a book. We just looked it up online. Like, I would literally go on legal depot and, like, get a LOI

05:51

off there and edit it. And, you know, for the first few deals, like, you know, I was

off there and edit it. And, you know, for the first few deals, like, you know, I was

05:57

nineteen twenty, and Andrew would be like, can you go get a LOI for this? And I didn't know what that was. We just go download and write it up. And it's interesting because one thing that we didn't, like, this is an example of just the benefit of not having a lot of experience. Typically, when you do an LOI,

nineteen twenty, and Andrew would be like, can you go get a LOI for this? And I didn't know what that was. We just go download and write it up. And it's interesting because one thing that we didn't, like, this is an example of just the benefit of not having a lot of experience. Typically, when you do an LOI,

06:12

it's pretty far along in the process,

it's pretty far along in the process,

06:14

and we would just fire them out because we read them. And in an LOI, the only thing that's binding usually is the exclusivity and nothing else. Not the price or anything else. And so we thought, okay. Like, this is a totally nonbinding thing. So let's just, like, chuck it out there. It's nice to have something on a piece of paper. It's kinda like a term sheet.

and we would just fire them out because we read them. And in an LOI, the only thing that's binding usually is the exclusivity and nothing else. Not the price or anything else. And so we thought, okay. Like, this is a totally nonbinding thing. So let's just, like, chuck it out there. It's nice to have something on a piece of paper. It's kinda like a term sheet.

06:31

Although even term sheets, like, socially are more binding.

Although even term sheets, like, socially are more binding.

06:35

And we didn't realize that, oh, in private equity and LOI is like a pretty sturdy commitment or whatever. And, you know, that was for better and for worse. On one hand, it let us move really fast. On the other hand, we learned quite quickly that, okay, you're not supposed to go back on what you changed in an LOI and and that kind of stuff. And we're and and so there's all those little things we're just not being familiar with the process. Really kinda let us move fast, it let us be friendlier. And that was the whole point. Like, we had both had these kind of bad experiences with, with with buyers.

And we didn't realize that, oh, in private equity and LOI is like a pretty sturdy commitment or whatever. And, you know, that was for better and for worse. On one hand, it let us move really fast. On the other hand, we learned quite quickly that, okay, you're not supposed to go back on what you changed in an LOI and and that kind of stuff. And we're and and so there's all those little things we're just not being familiar with the process. Really kinda let us move fast, it let us be friendlier. And that was the whole point. Like, we had both had these kind of bad experiences with, with with buyers.

07:02

And we thought, you know, there's gotta be, like, a better service to be done there, basically. I had a handyman come over yesterday, and he comes to my front door, and he's like, show me what you need done, whatever. I said, great. That's what I need to know. And he goes, here. Before we start, I need you to do something. And he pulls out a notebook, and he writes,

And we thought, you know, there's gotta be, like, a better service to be done there, basically. I had a handyman come over yesterday, and he comes to my front door, and he's like, show me what you need done, whatever. I said, great. That's what I need to know. And he goes, here. Before we start, I need you to do something. And he pulls out a notebook, and he writes,

07:19

my rate is fifty dollars one hour per one hour. And he hands it to me goes, sign this for me. And I just I go, okay. Cool. I'm aware.

my rate is fifty dollars one hour per one hour. And he hands it to me goes, sign this for me. And I just I go, okay. Cool. I'm aware.

07:27

That that that's awesome. He's like, that way.

That that that's awesome. He's like, that way.

07:31

Spits in his hand, shakes it. He's like, it's no official.

Spits in his hand, shakes it. He's like, it's no official.

07:34

And I was like, I I appreciate. I I appreciate your style. And that that's that that was like the tiny LOI.

And I was like, I I appreciate. I I appreciate your style. And that that's that that was like the tiny LOI.

07:41

Hey, real quick, you know, one of the cool parts about what we're doing is that people have reached out and told me that they've built actual million dollar businesses, made their first million, often idea they heard on the show. That is crazy. That's wild. That's why we wanna do the show. And we wanna see more of that. One of the questions we get asked over and over again is is there some kind of idea, database, or spreadsheet

Hey, real quick, you know, one of the cool parts about what we're doing is that people have reached out and told me that they've built actual million dollar businesses, made their first million, often idea they heard on the show. That is crazy. That's wild. That's why we wanna do the show. And we wanna see more of that. One of the questions we get asked over and over again is is there some kind of idea, database, or spreadsheet

08:00

where we list out all the different business ideas that we've talked about? Well, the answer is fine. The yes. The fine folks at HubSpot have dug through the archive and pulled out fifty plus business ideas and put them into a business idea database. It's totally free. You click the link in the description below and get the database for you. Alright. Now back to the show. So at the time was dribble like an obviously good business because it turned out to be amazing investment. Probably like a I don't know. What is it? Like, a fifty x on your money there. Right? Like, it's Yeah. More than that. More than a fifty x. Amazing.

where we list out all the different business ideas that we've talked about? Well, the answer is fine. The yes. The fine folks at HubSpot have dug through the archive and pulled out fifty plus business ideas and put them into a business idea database. It's totally free. You click the link in the description below and get the database for you. Alright. Now back to the show. So at the time was dribble like an obviously good business because it turned out to be amazing investment. Probably like a I don't know. What is it? Like, a fifty x on your money there. Right? Like, it's Yeah. More than that. More than a fifty x. Amazing.

08:30

What did you guys, like, try to underwrite the deal? Were you, like, in Excel, like, dragging some, like, you know, ten percent growth? Like, dragging it over twenty columns? Like, How did you guys what what what did the deal look like and what what did you expect? Again, it was it was pretty obvious that it was a great business. And I think Andrew's told this story before, but there was some immediate day one levers around, like, a big part of the business was advertising, and we could find better advertising providers and things like that. So there was levers you could pull on day one that were gonna improve the business.

What did you guys, like, try to underwrite the deal? Were you, like, in Excel, like, dragging some, like, you know, ten percent growth? Like, dragging it over twenty columns? Like, How did you guys what what what did the deal look like and what what did you expect? Again, it was it was pretty obvious that it was a great business. And I think Andrew's told this story before, but there was some immediate day one levers around, like, a big part of the business was advertising, and we could find better advertising providers and things like that. So there was levers you could pull on day one that were gonna improve the business.

08:59

But, yeah, it just felt like this big It was a top one thousand website. It had millions of active users. It was very important, you know, when it launched, like, I think I bought my dribble invite on e bay or something like that. It was really hot for a while. And it it was just this kind of like cool thing that didn't really exist. You know, there's not a lot of independent social networks that have millions of users

But, yeah, it just felt like this big It was a top one thousand website. It had millions of active users. It was very important, you know, when it launched, like, I think I bought my dribble invite on e bay or something like that. It was really hot for a while. And it it was just this kind of like cool thing that didn't really exist. You know, there's not a lot of independent social networks that have millions of users

09:20

And, you know, we we

And, you know, we we

09:22

we negotiated a pretty fair deal, I think, like, you know, the the other buffet line is price is my due diligence, and that helps a lot. But, no, we never thought we never thought any of the deals could be, you know, fifty plus x's.

we negotiated a pretty fair deal, I think, like, you know, the the other buffet line is price is my due diligence, and that helps a lot. But, no, we never thought we never thought any of the deals could be, you know, fifty plus x's.

09:34

We're always just like, can we make twenty or thirty percent cash per year from this business? And that would be great. And anything after that is just kind of kind of upside.

We're always just like, can we make twenty or thirty percent cash per year from this business? And that would be great. And anything after that is just kind of kind of upside.

09:44

You know, I I think and and, yeah, regarding models, you know, Andrew used to make me do discounted cash flows because it was kinda like the thing that you felt an investors ought to do.

You know, I I think and and, yeah, regarding models, you know, Andrew used to make me do discounted cash flows because it was kinda like the thing that you felt an investors ought to do.

09:54

And then at some point, I was, like, here is your spreadsheet, but I'm just making up all the assumptions in the spreadsheet. And I think it was, like, so many of these things are just, like, comfort blankets or whatever. You just, like, it makes you it's a big, this big scary thing that you're doing, and it makes you feel better that you have it so you can look at it and be like, yeah, like, we've modeled this out, you know, but it's, like, it's bullshit. You just you're just making it up.

And then at some point, I was, like, here is your spreadsheet, but I'm just making up all the assumptions in the spreadsheet. And I think it was, like, so many of these things are just, like, comfort blankets or whatever. You just, like, it makes you it's a big, this big scary thing that you're doing, and it makes you feel better that you have it so you can look at it and be like, yeah, like, we've modeled this out, you know, but it's, like, it's bullshit. You just you're just making it up.

10:14

You also had a great quote. You were like, you you said something to me. You go, the more quantitative analysis. So the more numbers

You also had a great quote. You were like, you you said something to me. You go, the more quantitative analysis. So the more numbers

10:22

number, numerical analysis you're doing about a business, the more you're commoditized

number, numerical analysis you're doing about a business, the more you're commoditized

10:26

in your analysis. What does that what does that mean, impact that one? Yeah. My my favorite anecdote here is in the Facebook IPO, Barclays put out this research report where, you know, they say what they think the business is gonna be worth. And,

in your analysis. What does that what does that mean, impact that one? Yeah. My my favorite anecdote here is in the Facebook IPO, Barclays put out this research report where, you know, they say what they think the business is gonna be worth. And,

10:39

the way they do that is to a discounted cash flow, and and a part of that calculation is, like, what is the terminal growth? What is this thing gonna grow at forever?

the way they do that is to a discounted cash flow, and and a part of that calculation is, like, what is the terminal growth? What is this thing gonna grow at forever?

10:46

And they put it at three percent, which is what most companies are. And so that got them to a two hundred billion dollar valuation.

And they put it at three percent, which is what most companies are. And so that got them to a two hundred billion dollar valuation.

10:54

Now the next ten years, it grew thirty percent a year, and it's a two trillion dollar company.

Now the next ten years, it grew thirty percent a year, and it's a two trillion dollar company.

10:58

And it's just an example of, like, you know, you do all this modeling and this research report, and you're just so off. Like, you you you you're an order of magnitude off.

And it's just an example of, like, you know, you do all this modeling and this research report, and you're just so off. Like, you you you you're an order of magnitude off.

11:08

And so, like, what was the point of doing any of that? It would have been better to think really hard about how actually, how much can Facebook grow? Like, just kind of this first principle stuff, right, of what percentage of the planet could use this, like a lot more basic.

And so, like, what was the point of doing any of that? It would have been better to think really hard about how actually, how much can Facebook grow? Like, just kind of this first principle stuff, right, of what percentage of the planet could use this, like a lot more basic.

11:21

And yeah, that's a lot of the quantitative stuff. Also, a lot of the quantum stuff is totally modified. Right? So

And yeah, that's a lot of the quantitative stuff. Also, a lot of the quantum stuff is totally modified. Right? So

11:26

people, like, know how to do this. You can learn how to do this in school. And therefore, maybe it's like a useful table stakes thing.

people, like, know how to do this. You can learn how to do this in school. And therefore, maybe it's like a useful table stakes thing.

11:33

But you're not gonna get any edge that way because everyone can do it. And where the edge is in quantitative stuff is, you know, in the two Cymas and Jane streets and the and my TPHs, and you're not gonna be doing that either. And so you're not gonna, like, do a better model on a company than than the next guy and somehow get some edge there. Then when you're looking at a deal, when you're trying to for, like, a small Bootstrap business, a business doing anywhere from a million to thirty million in revenue,

But you're not gonna get any edge that way because everyone can do it. And where the edge is in quantitative stuff is, you know, in the two Cymas and Jane streets and the and my TPHs, and you're not gonna be doing that either. And so you're not gonna, like, do a better model on a company than than the next guy and somehow get some edge there. Then when you're looking at a deal, when you're trying to for, like, a small Bootstrap business, a business doing anywhere from a million to thirty million in revenue,

11:57

What are you looking at to spot the opportunity?

What are you looking at to spot the opportunity?

12:00

If it's not the if it I mean, are you how much do the financials

If it's not the if it I mean, are you how much do the financials

12:04

and the the cash flow statements even factor into that, or you just thinking I can make this bigger? I mean, what what part of the numbers actually matter to you?

and the the cash flow statements even factor into that, or you just thinking I can make this bigger? I mean, what what part of the numbers actually matter to you?

12:13

Yeah. It's pretty basic. Right? It's like, okay, let's, you know, let's make up numbers. It's doing five million dollars of revenue, a million dollars of earnings.

Yeah. It's pretty basic. Right? It's like, okay, let's, you know, let's make up numbers. It's doing five million dollars of revenue, a million dollars of earnings.

12:22

And you think, okay. On day one, I could, you know, raise the prices by thirty percent. I could,

And you think, okay. On day one, I could, you know, raise the prices by thirty percent. I could,

12:28

reduce head count. I could launch this new product, whatever.

reduce head count. I could launch this new product, whatever.

12:33

Would you pay, you know, would you pay a million dollars for that? Yeah. Of course. Would you pay three million dollars? Yeah. Probably. And then you you can just kinda go and I think where modeling gets important is when you're, like, at the very edge of that, you're, like, would you pay ten million dollars for that? And then it's, like, well, a lot of things would have to go right maybe or whatever. But there's some number there where it's like, yeah, you know, I've I pay three million dollars for business making a million dollars. And so then the trick becomes, okay, can you get the business three million dollars. And that's where it's like, you know, tiny was in a lot of bids with other other folks,

Would you pay, you know, would you pay a million dollars for that? Yeah. Of course. Would you pay three million dollars? Yeah. Probably. And then you you can just kinda go and I think where modeling gets important is when you're, like, at the very edge of that, you're, like, would you pay ten million dollars for that? And then it's, like, well, a lot of things would have to go right maybe or whatever. But there's some number there where it's like, yeah, you know, I've I pay three million dollars for business making a million dollars. And so then the trick becomes, okay, can you get the business three million dollars. And that's where it's like, you know, tiny was in a lot of bids with other other folks,

13:05

and

and

13:06

I don't think we were ever the highest actual price, but we often won deals because we could offer other things. So that comes back to, like, why you on the deal, you know. It's because like, the very common thing that would happen is we'd get pretty far with the seller.

I don't think we were ever the highest actual price, but we often won deals because we could offer other things. So that comes back to, like, why you on the deal, you know. It's because like, the very common thing that would happen is we'd get pretty far with the seller.

13:19

And then they'd say, hey, you know, we like you guys, but we've got this offer twenty five percent more. So we're gonna go take it. And, you know, very often, be like, great. Like, go explore that. And then turns out that offer was not as real as you thought or it was six months. Of whatever,

And then they'd say, hey, you know, we like you guys, but we've got this offer twenty five percent more. So we're gonna go take it. And, you know, very often, be like, great. Like, go explore that. And then turns out that offer was not as real as you thought or it was six months. Of whatever,

13:33

there's more debt, or they didn't have the financing. And then you actually figure out that, oh, there there is, like, other things in the deal that are important the ability to get it done, the ability to be honest, to be trustworthy to do things fast, like all those other soft things.

there's more debt, or they didn't have the financing. And then you actually figure out that, oh, there there is, like, other things in the deal that are important the ability to get it done, the ability to be honest, to be trustworthy to do things fast, like all those other soft things.

13:46

And so it's more like

And so it's more like

13:49

Are you able to get a price that's really a no brainer? Or at least that's how I look at it versus

Are you able to get a price that's really a no brainer? Or at least that's how I look at it versus

13:53

I've really think I'm smarter than everyone else, and I can pay slightly more. I mean, that works for people. People do do that, but it's just a totally different game. I'm always fascinated by the people behind these businesses. What can I learn

I've really think I'm smarter than everyone else, and I can pay slightly more. I mean, that works for people. People do do that, but it's just a totally different game. I'm always fascinated by the people behind these businesses. What can I learn

14:04

you know, tiny is a great business, but it was created by people? It was created by Andrew, by Chris, by you. And I'm like, what are how do they think about things? What do they know about what they're doing? What worked for them? What are their ultimately? What are their superpowers?

you know, tiny is a great business, but it was created by people? It was created by Andrew, by Chris, by you. And I'm like, what are how do they think about things? What do they know about what they're doing? What worked for them? What are their ultimately? What are their superpowers?

14:18

And I asked you, what's Chris's superpower? Because forget Andrew. Everybody knows Andrew. He's popular. He's out there. He talks. He's got a big following. Almost nobody knows Chris. I had dinner with Chris, and I was like, I fucking love this guy. This guy's he's dynamic.

And I asked you, what's Chris's superpower? Because forget Andrew. Everybody knows Andrew. He's popular. He's out there. He talks. He's got a big following. Almost nobody knows Chris. I had dinner with Chris, and I was like, I fucking love this guy. This guy's he's dynamic.

14:29

He's really engaging. He asks great questions.

He's really engaging. He asks great questions.

14:32

And so I've only known him for a couple hours in my life. You've known him for a lot longer than that. What is Chris's superpower that that he brought to tiny?

And so I've only known him for a couple hours in my life. You've known him for a lot longer than that. What is Chris's superpower that that he brought to tiny?

14:41

I mean, Chris's superpower is just

I mean, Chris's superpower is just

14:44

being able to Andrew is so high paced and so high in

being able to Andrew is so high paced and so high in

14:47

energy that Chris is just able to modulate that and kind of be the sober second thought. You know, we're not gonna do this or that's way too much or or whatever,

energy that Chris is just able to modulate that and kind of be the sober second thought. You know, we're not gonna do this or that's way too much or or whatever,

14:56

you know, a very interesting

you know, a very interesting

14:58

piece of the tiny partnership,

piece of the tiny partnership,

15:00

at least at the beginning that I thought was really quite unique and interesting

at least at the beginning that I thought was really quite unique and interesting

15:04

is that, you know, Chris and Andrew had tiny as this vehicle that they would share together,

is that, you know, Chris and Andrew had tiny as this vehicle that they would share together,

15:10

but then they could also do things on their own, you know, investments, businesses.

but then they could also do things on their own, you know, investments, businesses.

15:14

And that actually, like, I don't even know if it was intentional, but that provides this great release valve of,

And that actually, like, I don't even know if it was intentional, but that provides this great release valve of,

15:20

oh, okay, like, all the time, you know, Andrew would come up with some, you know, cockamamie motion about some restaurant or whatever, he would just say, okay, I'm gonna go do that on my own. And Chris could have the same thing like Chris was great in investing in public equities, and he could go do that on his own. And I, I know that doesn't exactly answer about Chris's superpower, but it is this, like, interesting structure. I think one thing that can really go wrong in partnerships

oh, okay, like, all the time, you know, Andrew would come up with some, you know, cockamamie motion about some restaurant or whatever, he would just say, okay, I'm gonna go do that on my own. And Chris could have the same thing like Chris was great in investing in public equities, and he could go do that on his own. And I, I know that doesn't exactly answer about Chris's superpower, but it is this, like, interesting structure. I think one thing that can really go wrong in partnerships

15:43

is if it's like you're dedicating your whole life to this thing, and everything you do is gonna be be through it. It can really turn into this prison if you don't share the same taste as as your co founder. And so having this, like, release valve

is if it's like you're dedicating your whole life to this thing, and everything you do is gonna be be through it. It can really turn into this prison if you don't share the same taste as as your co founder. And so having this, like, release valve

15:55

and being aware of that is is really nice. People normally pick partners who are like them. Right? But they but Andrew and Chris are not like that. You know, I guess what is that a what did you learn from that? Yeah. I mean, I I would also say, like, Andrew is really good at sales and kind of creating this new vision And then Chris is really good at being kind of the negotiator and actually, like, getting a good deal and structuring it well and everything.

and being aware of that is is really nice. People normally pick partners who are like them. Right? But they but Andrew and Chris are not like that. You know, I guess what is that a what did you learn from that? Yeah. I mean, I I would also say, like, Andrew is really good at sales and kind of creating this new vision And then Chris is really good at being kind of the negotiator and actually, like, getting a good deal and structuring it well and everything.

16:20

You know, there's all kinds of things about about negotiation. Like, one thing that would be,

You know, there's all kinds of things about about negotiation. Like, one thing that would be,

16:26

like, structurally another interesting thing is, you know, I would I would be kind of the the front guy on a lot of deals and would come back to them, and they would kind of be quarterbacking it. And what was nice is, like, I would throw out an offer that I thought was really aggressive. And it was kind of the most that I could, like, emotionally stomach.

like, structurally another interesting thing is, you know, I would I would be kind of the the front guy on a lot of deals and would come back to them, and they would kind of be quarterbacking it. And what was nice is, like, I would throw out an offer that I thought was really aggressive. And it was kind of the most that I could, like, emotionally stomach.

16:43

Aggressively

Aggressively

16:44

high, aggressively high.

high, aggressively high.

16:46

You know, really low, really low. And so this is I I wanna be clear. This was back, like, in the early days when we had no money and we were really trying to, like, be scrappy. Tiny is not really like this anymore, but

You know, really low, really low. And so this is I I wanna be clear. This was back, like, in the early days when we had no money and we were really trying to, like, be scrappy. Tiny is not really like this anymore, but

16:56

then I would say, okay. Like, I've really got this down. You know, and then they would just look at me and because they'd never talk to the the the seller and just say, I think you can do, like, twenty five percent less. And, like, sometimes I feel like I wanna throw up, you know. Talk to that when you have to present a shit offer to someone. I I imagine some a lot of times, maybe not a lot. Ten, fifteen percent of times, they're like, okay.

then I would say, okay. Like, I've really got this down. You know, and then they would just look at me and because they'd never talk to the the the seller and just say, I think you can do, like, twenty five percent less. And, like, sometimes I feel like I wanna throw up, you know. Talk to that when you have to present a shit offer to someone. I I imagine some a lot of times, maybe not a lot. Ten, fifteen percent of times, they're like, okay.

17:17

Yeah.

Yeah.

17:18

Well, more than that. And, actually, what's even rare is, at least I, I always have this fear that they're gonna lose it. You know? Like, just how scary.

Well, more than that. And, actually, what's even rare is, at least I, I always have this fear that they're gonna lose it. You know? Like, just how scary.

17:27

And that almost never happens. It happens sometimes, but it almost never happens. And another nice dynamic there is you can always say, well, hey, like,

And that almost never happens. It happens sometimes, but it almost never happens. And another nice dynamic there is you can always say, well, hey, like,

17:35

I'm on your side. Like, I, you know, it's the old,

I'm on your side. Like, I, you know, it's the old,

17:37

car salesman gamut of, like, my manager's killing me. It's the same exact setup. Right?

car salesman gamut of, like, my manager's killing me. It's the same exact setup. Right?

17:43

And that's that's super helpful and, you know,

And that's that's super helpful and, you know,

17:46

Chris shared all kinds of tricks with me, like,

Chris shared all kinds of tricks with me, like,

17:49

One great one is it's always best to just kind of when you float an offer to just not say anything else, people will immediately start negotiating against themselves. And so one trick that you can use if you're on I I guess it probably doesn't work on Zoom, but,

One great one is it's always best to just kind of when you float an offer to just not say anything else, people will immediately start negotiating against themselves. And so one trick that you can use if you're on I I guess it probably doesn't work on Zoom, but,

18:02

if you're on just a call, is you can, like, say your offer and then hit mute

if you're on just a call, is you can, like, say your offer and then hit mute

18:06

And then you can, like, feel like, you can start saying, oh, you know, whatever, but they'll just hear the science, silence. And,

And then you can, like, feel like, you can start saying, oh, you know, whatever, but they'll just hear the science, silence. And,

18:12

that's a big thing as well, because

that's a big thing as well, because

18:14

oftentimes, you just need to let it float and sit out there, but it's, like, too uncomfortable for you to actually do that. Dude, I've got this friend who works in the CIA, and I was talking to him, and he has to negotiate with people. You know, basically, his job is to convince people to become spies. So if he goes, the Middle East, he's has to convince a a guy who's loyal to some country in the Middle East to be commit treason.

oftentimes, you just need to let it float and sit out there, but it's, like, too uncomfortable for you to actually do that. Dude, I've got this friend who works in the CIA, and I was talking to him, and he has to negotiate with people. You know, basically, his job is to convince people to become spies. So if he goes, the Middle East, he's has to convince a a guy who's loyal to some country in the Middle East to be commit treason.

18:37

And when he, like, goes to these negotiations,

And when he, like, goes to these negotiations,

18:40

his tactic, because he said the same thing. He goes, I say what I want and what I want to happen, and then I shut up.

his tactic, because he said the same thing. He goes, I say what I want and what I want to happen, and then I shut up.

18:45

And,

And,

18:47

I we we his other coworker was there, and he was like, who's not, who's not part of that? He's like, dude, they do this to me all the time just at work. I'll notice they say something, And I just wanna fill the silence, and I wanna keep talking, and it because it makes me uncomfortable. And I end up just talking, talking, talking, and they sit back, not saying a thing, and they always get their way.

I we we his other coworker was there, and he was like, who's not, who's not part of that? He's like, dude, they do this to me all the time just at work. I'll notice they say something, And I just wanna fill the silence, and I wanna keep talking, and it because it makes me uncomfortable. And I end up just talking, talking, talking, and they sit back, not saying a thing, and they always get their way.

19:05

Yeah. Totally.

Yeah. Totally.

19:06

I mean, one one very cynical way of looking at negotiation,

I mean, one one very cynical way of looking at negotiation,

19:10

is that it's just who can bear to be uncomfortable longer.

is that it's just who can bear to be uncomfortable longer.

19:14

And and, like, that's certainly true. You can do that in a retail setting, you know. Sean does that all the time. Sean, I think we when he negotiates The king of the awkward silence. Yeah. He's he's very comfortable. I have a condo on awkward Island.

And and, like, that's certainly true. You can do that in a retail setting, you know. Sean does that all the time. Sean, I think we when he negotiates The king of the awkward silence. Yeah. He's he's very comfortable. I have a condo on awkward Island.

19:29

Yeah. He's he's the mayor of of that area where he's just, very comfortable being uncomfortable in the conversation. Jeremy, you you told me something else that Chris taught you that is less about kind of the the kind of the gamesmanship. I think when we when we think about negotiation.

Yeah. He's he's the mayor of of that area where he's just, very comfortable being uncomfortable in the conversation. Jeremy, you you told me something else that Chris taught you that is less about kind of the the kind of the gamesmanship. I think when we when we think about negotiation.

19:44

We often think about the gamesmanship. What do I say? And I think you already said one interesting is, which is a lot of times what you don't say. It's to stop talking. And let them talk. But another piece you had mentioned to me was, like,

We often think about the gamesmanship. What do I say? And I think you already said one interesting is, which is a lot of times what you don't say. It's to stop talking. And let them talk. But another piece you had mentioned to me was, like,

19:56

it's not you versus them. Can you explain that, like, how Chris taught you? It's not you versus them. The the way that I like to frame it, the more kind of mature, the way that you can really do, I think, for your entire life and not kind of get, you know, be known as this, like, bastard. It's just relentless and nega negotiate against. It's kind of I love this idea of an additional negotiation. You're staying across the table from one another.

it's not you versus them. Can you explain that, like, how Chris taught you? It's not you versus them. The the way that I like to frame it, the more kind of mature, the way that you can really do, I think, for your entire life and not kind of get, you know, be known as this, like, bastard. It's just relentless and nega negotiate against. It's kind of I love this idea of an additional negotiation. You're staying across the table from one another.

20:16

And the way that I really like to reframe it is, you're both sitting on the same side and what's on the other side of the table is the problem.

And the way that I really like to reframe it is, you're both sitting on the same side and what's on the other side of the table is the problem.

20:23

And the problem can be You want fifty million for the business. I wanna pay twenty,

And the problem can be You want fifty million for the business. I wanna pay twenty,

20:28

but it's still this like, okay,

but it's still this like, okay,

20:30

this is a problem. Let's work together to figure this out. And it's this very subtle thing, but it makes a huge difference. And that's I think that's how you start to unearth.

this is a problem. Let's work together to figure this out. And it's this very subtle thing, but it makes a huge difference. And that's I think that's how you start to unearth.

20:39

Okay. Maybe, like, it's actually not it's cash and something else that's more important for you. Why do you want fifty? What is it that's fifty what's so important? And why can I feel like I only can pay twenty or whatever? And that works really well. I use that every day. You can use it in, like, a relationship problems and everything of kind of, like, making the problem other and then putting it out there and being like, let's work together on solving this thing. And there's just something so much better about that than the kind of, like, I'm gonna hit mute and stare at you and, like, break you. You know? Like, well, see, Jeremy, the problem that we're trying to solve is I want the money in your bank account to be in my bank account.

Okay. Maybe, like, it's actually not it's cash and something else that's more important for you. Why do you want fifty? What is it that's fifty what's so important? And why can I feel like I only can pay twenty or whatever? And that works really well. I use that every day. You can use it in, like, a relationship problems and everything of kind of, like, making the problem other and then putting it out there and being like, let's work together on solving this thing. And there's just something so much better about that than the kind of, like, I'm gonna hit mute and stare at you and, like, break you. You know? Like, well, see, Jeremy, the problem that we're trying to solve is I want the money in your bank account to be in my bank account.

21:13

Yeah. Exactly. I want that I want that Chase to have to say five zero.

Yeah. Exactly. I want that I want that Chase to have to say five zero.

21:17

Yeah.

Yeah.

21:19

No. It it is true, though. You know, one of the things my dad taught me, one of the best things my dad ever taught me is like when you go into a negotiation,

No. It it is true, though. You know, one of the things my dad taught me, one of the best things my dad ever taught me is like when you go into a negotiation,

21:27

it's not and the same thing. It's not us for STEM. It's he goes make a table of your needs and your, like, basically your needs and then your gives. So, like, what do you have to offer? And then what do you what do you need back? And then what do they have to offer? What do you need back? And they're never, like, perfectly symmetrical. It's not like and so for example, some of the things they need are very easy for me to give. Cost me nothing, or I'm totally comfortable giving that, and it's actually their fear or their their big sticking point was something that's not so hard for me to to to give on, or maybe I could go out of my way to give more even than they're than they're they're expecting in that area. And in this other area, I need something and then they they're happy to give it. And so that's usually the the better way to do it. My my favorite question. Is what would need to be true. So it's like, okay, you wanna sell your business for a hundred million dollars. What would need to be true for me to pay a hundred million dollars for And you can just lay it out, like, like, what would make this a no brainer? And you can do that in any situation. And, you know, sometimes it's impossible, but oftentimes, it's far more possible than you think when everyone actually lays that out. Because usually there's some sticking point that you don't realize or or, you know, it's something that is kinda outside of the scope of things you've already talked about. And I'm always amazed by how much that works. That works, like, as I've been fundraising, it works there. Like, what would need to be true for you to be like, oh, it's easy for you to give you money or,

it's not and the same thing. It's not us for STEM. It's he goes make a table of your needs and your, like, basically your needs and then your gives. So, like, what do you have to offer? And then what do you what do you need back? And then what do they have to offer? What do you need back? And they're never, like, perfectly symmetrical. It's not like and so for example, some of the things they need are very easy for me to give. Cost me nothing, or I'm totally comfortable giving that, and it's actually their fear or their their big sticking point was something that's not so hard for me to to to give on, or maybe I could go out of my way to give more even than they're than they're they're expecting in that area. And in this other area, I need something and then they they're happy to give it. And so that's usually the the better way to do it. My my favorite question. Is what would need to be true. So it's like, okay, you wanna sell your business for a hundred million dollars. What would need to be true for me to pay a hundred million dollars for And you can just lay it out, like, like, what would make this a no brainer? And you can do that in any situation. And, you know, sometimes it's impossible, but oftentimes, it's far more possible than you think when everyone actually lays that out. Because usually there's some sticking point that you don't realize or or, you know, it's something that is kinda outside of the scope of things you've already talked about. And I'm always amazed by how much that works. That works, like, as I've been fundraising, it works there. Like, what would need to be true for you to be like, oh, it's easy for you to give you money or,

22:43

you know,

you know,

22:44

for for a trip. Like, what would need to be true for everyone to be excited about going on this trip? Like, it's just such a good question, and it it really sets set up is like, let's collaborate on this. That was my pickup line. What's a guy like me? You gotta do to be with a girl like you. And then she's like, Do you have a friend?

for for a trip. Like, what would need to be true for everyone to be excited about going on this trip? Like, it's just such a good question, and it it really sets set up is like, let's collaborate on this. That was my pickup line. What's a guy like me? You gotta do to be with a girl like you. And then she's like, Do you have a friend?

22:59

Yeah.

Yeah.

23:01

What's his name?

What's his name?

23:03

You have this other thing on here where you talk about how,

You have this other thing on here where you talk about how,

23:06

What do you say? A cold email is the most asymmetrical trade, and that you've actually cold emailed a bunch of people. There's one guy in particular who you listed that I wanna ask you about, but,

What do you say? A cold email is the most asymmetrical trade, and that you've actually cold emailed a bunch of people. There's one guy in particular who you listed that I wanna ask you about, but,

23:17

it sounds like the cold email has done well for you. Explain more.

it sounds like the cold email has done well for you. Explain more.

23:22

Yeah. I think, it's funny. I've been saying this a lot more, publicly into groups and stuff.

Yeah. I think, it's funny. I've been saying this a lot more, publicly into groups and stuff.

23:29

And it's still, like, if everyone called email, the r would go away, but I think it's just scary or whatever that people don't do it. It's still a huge opportunity. I will say, like, the the addendum to that advice is

And it's still, like, if everyone called email, the r would go away, but I think it's just scary or whatever that people don't do it. It's still a huge opportunity. I will say, like, the the addendum to that advice is

23:40

you gotta have the goods when you show up the meeting or the call or whatever. I think, like, I think I don't know. Maybe it's just, like, anecdotally because I talk about this a lot. I get a lot of cold outreach.

you gotta have the goods when you show up the meeting or the call or whatever. I think, like, I think I don't know. Maybe it's just, like, anecdotally because I talk about this a lot. I get a lot of cold outreach.

23:50

And you also, like, the second part is you gotta be really good when you show when you show up.

And you also, like, the second part is you gotta be really good when you show when you show up.

23:55

But if you're good,

But if you're good,

23:57

when you show up, like, it's just this incredible,

when you show up, like, it's just this incredible,

24:01

incredible kind of hidden secret, which is there's always a scarcity of talent Like, no matter who you are and, you know, how much money you're worth or whatever,

incredible kind of hidden secret, which is there's always a scarcity of talent Like, no matter who you are and, you know, how much money you're worth or whatever,

24:09

there's a scarcity of really awesome people.

there's a scarcity of really awesome people.

24:12

And so everyone has an infinite appetite to meet people who are interesting,

And so everyone has an infinite appetite to meet people who are interesting,

24:16

talented, have a unique view on things, whatever.

talented, have a unique view on things, whatever.

24:19

And if you can present that, like, you you will really kind of go a long way. And and the downside, I can't even remember. I'm sure I've sent hundreds that have never been responded to. I've never got a bad response. It's usually just no response. And I don't even remember the non responses, but the ones that I've got responses from have been amazing, you know. And so I think,

And if you can present that, like, you you will really kind of go a long way. And and the downside, I can't even remember. I'm sure I've sent hundreds that have never been responded to. I've never got a bad response. It's usually just no response. And I don't even remember the non responses, but the ones that I've got responses from have been amazing, you know. And so I think,

24:38

I definitely think more people should do it, especially if you're young or you're a student that that alone can be enough of a hook,

I definitely think more people should do it, especially if you're young or you're a student that that alone can be enough of a hook,

24:44

that, like, most people will meet with a student if they seem switched on and and interested. And,

that, like, most people will meet with a student if they seem switched on and and interested. And,

24:50

yeah, I I'm still amazed that people people don't do it, but I've started to see people do it, and then they show up and, like, they don't have say, or they don't have questions for Verint or whatever, and that can be really bad. We already know your first deal, but that was the first one. But I wanna know first deal, worst deal, best deal, weirdest deal.

yeah, I I'm still amazed that people people don't do it, but I've started to see people do it, and then they show up and, like, they don't have say, or they don't have questions for Verint or whatever, and that can be really bad. We already know your first deal, but that was the first one. But I wanna know first deal, worst deal, best deal, weirdest deal.

25:06

It's like the fuck murder Mary of

It's like the fuck murder Mary of

25:10

yeah. What we did for we did first deal, dribble, which might also be best deal.

yeah. What we did for we did first deal, dribble, which might also be best deal.

25:15

What's what's the worst deal that comes to mind? What's the big mistake you made?

What's what's the worst deal that comes to mind? What's the big mistake you made?

25:18

The worst deal

The worst deal

25:20

and name names and list their email address. And social media handles.

and name names and list their email address. And social media handles.

25:25

Yeah. The the worst deal is actually the one that I can say the least about, which should indicate how bad of a deal it was. But

Yeah. The the worst deal is actually the one that I can say the least about, which should indicate how bad of a deal it was. But

25:32

Yeah. The the the worst one was just that,

Yeah. The the the worst one was just that,

25:36

the person

the person

25:37

was dishonest.

was dishonest.

25:38

And I should have known and I didn't, and I ignored it for for greed reasons.

And I should have known and I didn't, and I ignored it for for greed reasons.

25:43

Because I I was just thought this was such a good deal. I could look past these things. When you say I should have known, I ignored it. What what are some things people could look out for? What what can I learn from that? Yeah. It was it was not this deal, but there was

Because I I was just thought this was such a good deal. I could look past these things. When you say I should have known, I ignored it. What what are some things people could look out for? What what can I learn from that? Yeah. It was it was not this deal, but there was

25:56

a friend of mine, who buys similar types of companies,

a friend of mine, who buys similar types of companies,

25:59

did a did a deal where they flew in the, the founders to meet them in person. And the first night the founders wanted to know where they could get drugs.

did a did a deal where they flew in the, the founders to meet them in person. And the first night the founders wanted to know where they could get drugs.

26:08

And, you know, that is, like, in and of itself is not a strong signal, but in that context,

And, you know, that is, like, in and of itself is not a strong signal, but in that context,

26:14

in that situation. It's like kinda what more do you need to know, and it turned out that they were doing a bunch of stuff that they didn't disclose or whatever. It's always stuff like that. Like, someone who's really flashy is on always a bad sign.

in that situation. It's like kinda what more do you need to know, and it turned out that they were doing a bunch of stuff that they didn't disclose or whatever. It's always stuff like that. Like, someone who's really flashy is on always a bad sign.

26:26

All these little things and, you know, even,

All these little things and, you know, even,

26:29

like, in the case of this deal, I introduced the person to a bunch of different

like, in the case of this deal, I introduced the person to a bunch of different

26:34

friends and and, you know,

friends and and, you know,

26:36

experts. And they're all like, this guy is really something. You know, like, you I I don't really know why you're dealing with this person, and it's it is funny how you just get the blinders on when something is so good. And I think we've all all made that mistake.

experts. And they're all like, this guy is really something. You know, like, you I I don't really know why you're dealing with this person, and it's it is funny how you just get the blinders on when something is so good. And I think we've all all made that mistake.

26:50

And so, yeah, that that one, it just turned out that there was a bunch of things that we didn't know about, and it went went very badly, and we lost our all our It was a really small check. Fortunately that was, like, the one upside, but,

And so, yeah, that that one, it just turned out that there was a bunch of things that we didn't know about, and it went went very badly, and we lost our all our It was a really small check. Fortunately that was, like, the one upside, but,

27:01

that one was was pretty, pretty rough.

that one was was pretty, pretty rough.

27:04

What's the most unique or weird deal?

What's the most unique or weird deal?

27:07

The the best one

The the best one

27:10

I mean, it's kinda too early to tell. One one One that I really I really really love is this company called Millime. It's a, meal planning app that tiny bought in twenty eighteen.

I mean, it's kinda too early to tell. One one One that I really I really really love is this company called Millime. It's a, meal planning app that tiny bought in twenty eighteen.

27:21

Meal planning made easy. So four four four and a half million people, it says in the website, use this app. And what do you do? You say, what ingredients you have, and it gives you, like,

Meal planning made easy. So four four four and a half million people, it says in the website, use this app. And what do you do? You say, what ingredients you have, and it gives you, like,

27:31

a bunch of recipes to cook and line some out for breakfast lunch and dinner. But it was just this really awesome app And it was made by this really amazing technical guy who had just built this really great product. Like, I remember the the moment that sold me is, like, they, you know, how the iPhone turns off when you put it close to your head.

a bunch of recipes to cook and line some out for breakfast lunch and dinner. But it was just this really awesome app And it was made by this really amazing technical guy who had just built this really great product. Like, I remember the the moment that sold me is, like, they, you know, how the iPhone turns off when you put it close to your head.

27:48

He realized that you could use that sensor. If your hands are dirty while you're cooking, you could wave your hands over that sensor to, like, go to the of the recipe or stuff, all these these little things, and they have these huge butterfly effects. Like, turns out when you do that, Apple thinks that's really cool. And then they feature you in the app store. And, like, you There's all these small details.

He realized that you could use that sensor. If your hands are dirty while you're cooking, you could wave your hands over that sensor to, like, go to the of the recipe or stuff, all these these little things, and they have these huge butterfly effects. Like, turns out when you do that, Apple thinks that's really cool. And then they feature you in the app store. And, like, you There's all these small details.

28:05

And we bought that business, and it grew a lot. We got all of our money back in the first couple of years.

And we bought that business, and it grew a lot. We got all of our money back in the first couple of years.

28:10

And then this was the only business tiny as, as sold to date that,

And then this was the only business tiny as, as sold to date that,

28:16

we sold we two major grocery retailers came along.

we sold we two major grocery retailers came along.

28:20

And I guess, like, in a boardroom somewhere, they had just decided, you know, we need an app.

And I guess, like, in a boardroom somewhere, they had just decided, you know, we need an app.

28:25

And so they both became interested it was kind of funny because,

And so they both became interested it was kind of funny because,

28:28

I, you know, at the company that I was at before tiny, we had sold the company to Workday, and it was

I, you know, at the company that I was at before tiny, we had sold the company to Workday, and it was

28:34

a a a pretty difficult,

a a a pretty difficult,

28:37

experience. And so I kind of viewed it as, like, my chance to get another go at selling a company to a public business and really kind of gonna be my turn to, like, get a good deal. And, and then we sold it. We sold it for, you know, a a huge revenue multiple made a lot of money, you know, up excess of twenty five times of our money. And,

experience. And so I kind of viewed it as, like, my chance to get another go at selling a company to a public business and really kind of gonna be my turn to, like, get a good deal. And, and then we sold it. We sold it for, you know, a a huge revenue multiple made a lot of money, you know, up excess of twenty five times of our money. And,

28:56

and it's still today. It's like if you look it up, it's still used. It's this great thing. I think the original team is still there, they were very happy with the outcome.

and it's still today. It's like if you look it up, it's still used. It's this great thing. I think the original team is still there, they were very happy with the outcome.

29:03

I just love that because it was, like, it was this kind of perfect little situation and this great little almost like

I just love that because it was, like, it was this kind of perfect little situation and this great little almost like

29:11

like, craft app, like, just someone who cared a lot about making a great product, and and I love those. And the weirdest deal? It was basically this company

like, craft app, like, just someone who cared a lot about making a great product, and and I love those. And the weirdest deal? It was basically this company

29:19

A big fortune five hundred tech company

A big fortune five hundred tech company

29:21

bought a business, and the business had two business units. And the big fortune five hundred only wanted one of those units.

bought a business, and the business had two business units. And the big fortune five hundred only wanted one of those units.

29:29

And,

And,

29:30

they basically had to divest of it very quickly.

they basically had to divest of it very quickly.

29:33

And so we were able to buy it for

And so we were able to buy it for

29:36

it was doing

it was doing

29:37

ten million dollars of recurring revenue, and it was shrinking. The business was shrinking because it was built on top of another platform that was becoming less popular over time. And, and we were basically able to buy it for

ten million dollars of recurring revenue, and it was shrinking. The business was shrinking because it was built on top of another platform that was becoming less popular over time. And, and we were basically able to buy it for

29:49

so little that we borrowed all the money and then paid back the loan in, like, three or four months. And so we basically got it for free. We were able to we bought this out of the tiny fund, and we we were we could write this great update to our investors saying, hey, you know, we didn't call any capital, but you now own this new business, we're gonna do a distribution scene. And it was like small dollars, but it's cool to pay nothing for a business. And then the interesting part is, like, we also got a domain that's probably worth a million or two million dollars depending on how fast we wanted to sell it. And so it was kind of this like fun little deal of like actually do a business for or can you buy a company for no money down? And,

so little that we borrowed all the money and then paid back the loan in, like, three or four months. And so we basically got it for free. We were able to we bought this out of the tiny fund, and we we were we could write this great update to our investors saying, hey, you know, we didn't call any capital, but you now own this new business, we're gonna do a distribution scene. And it was like small dollars, but it's cool to pay nothing for a business. And then the interesting part is, like, we also got a domain that's probably worth a million or two million dollars depending on how fast we wanted to sell it. And so it was kind of this like fun little deal of like actually do a business for or can you buy a company for no money down? And,

30:25

you know, it won't be a business. It will not be a twenty x, and it's not gonna grow for ten years, but we'll make many multiples of our money on it. And it's fun. Like, in the actual fund statement

you know, it won't be a business. It will not be a twenty x, and it's not gonna grow for ten years, but we'll make many multiples of our money on it. And it's fun. Like, in the actual fund statement

30:35

that, like, KPMG does, they have to lift the cost. And so the the accountants

that, like, KPMG does, they have to lift the cost. And so the the accountants

30:40

listed as like a thirty six dollar cost basis, which is, like, I guess, like, the actual money that went into the deal. And,

listed as like a thirty six dollar cost basis, which is, like, I guess, like, the actual money that went into the deal. And,

30:46

those are cool. Like, you can be really, really creative. You don't have to put a lot of money down how did they find you or you them?

those are cool. Like, you can be really, really creative. You don't have to put a lot of money down how did they find you or you them?

30:53

We, in that case, we knew a board member.

We, in that case, we knew a board member.

30:55

And it was the situation where, again, we made a bid there and they didn't like the bid went and tried and shopped it around and turns out, like, there's a very limited set of buyers for that kind of thing, and especially ones who can do a deal really, really fast.

And it was the situation where, again, we made a bid there and they didn't like the bid went and tried and shopped it around and turns out, like, there's a very limited set of buyers for that kind of thing, and especially ones who can do a deal really, really fast.

31:07

And so it was kind of this we understood why we had the right to win this this deal. We understood that money was not the most important thing here.

And so it was kind of this we understood why we had the right to win this this deal. We understood that money was not the most important thing here.

31:15

And so we were able to get it for this this great price. That's it for part one. We actually kept talking to Jeremy, and it was so good that we're gonna turn it into a two parter. Second part is actually all about what he would do today. So the first part was kinda like how they how they built tiny, the deals, the lessons learned, and that was the past. Now I asked him, basically, if I was gonna do tiny today, what would I do? What deals would you be looking at? What businesses do you think are great buys? What opportunities do you see? And he tells us the single best investment opportunity he sees today in this next part. Enjoy that's coming out tomorrow.

And so we were able to get it for this this great price. That's it for part one. We actually kept talking to Jeremy, and it was so good that we're gonna turn it into a two parter. Second part is actually all about what he would do today. So the first part was kinda like how they how they built tiny, the deals, the lessons learned, and that was the past. Now I asked him, basically, if I was gonna do tiny today, what would I do? What deals would you be looking at? What businesses do you think are great buys? What opportunities do you see? And he tells us the single best investment opportunity he sees today in this next part. Enjoy that's coming out tomorrow.

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