00:00
I think if you're starting a media company and if I started it again,
00:04
if you didn't go subscription first, you're an idiot and you're a fool
00:10
I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to.
00:15
I put my all it, like, days off on a road less traveled, never looking back. Alright. We're live.
00:22
So did you see I, got Ariel Hawaiian to agree to come on? Know. Good job. How'd you do that?
00:27
A friend, a good buddy of mine, is, like, best friends with him. And I just begged him.
00:34
You're, you're outreach. I had never seen you try so hard. Normally, you're pretty cool about things. I don't think you really care with too many people.
00:42
But I could tell you wanted this one.
00:44
I did. I, so, basically, Eric, the for the people listening, there's this guy named Ariel Hawaiani. He's
00:50
got a million followers on Twitter. So he's not like that niche, but basically, he's like the god of MMA journalism.
00:57
And the reason why he's interesting is because he just quit ESPN where he was probably making close to a million dollars a year as a host and he created a sub stack, his own podcast, and he's kinda building like a little media
01:09
media empire.
01:10
Yep. And, so we're gonna we'll have him on and talk about that.
01:14
Yeah. And, you know, the thing that's interesting by him was
01:17
he's been in it for a while. So, like, you have this phrase. I think you've say, like, niches get riches, basically, which is like Yeah.
01:25
A lot of people are afraid to go into a niche market.
01:28
And is it niche or niche, by the way? I have no idea.
01:31
No. It can work. Okay. Good. So, you know, a lot of people are afraid, oh, is this too niche? And I think you have the opposite reaction, which is too niche. Fantastic.
01:39
At least that's my my understanding. You tell me if that's that's right or wrong. Well, it's
01:44
the the two things. One,
01:46
When you when whenever you start doing something, it's definitely better to start for a very small group of people and a very small niche and corner that or at least get big in and then expand.
01:57
Or the second thing is you can stay in in a growing niche and grow with But, you know, start your start your business on top of a huge wave. For example, Twitch,
02:08
video game streaming, super small niche. They never expanded, really. Right? It's still the same thing from day one. We tried, but it's still, you know, dominant.
02:17
We're we're just gaming. Yeah. And that niche has just they're in it. It just is no longer really a niche, or you have, like, an Amazon only books, and then you dominate that, and then CDs, and then this and then this and then this. So, yeah. I think starting small is always the way to go or is often the way to go.
02:34
Yeah. And I think in in Ariel's case, what he did was
02:37
I know he's a fan of I kinda wanna ask of this. He's a fan of the NBA. Like, he's a big basketball fan, but he didn't go for journalism, basketball journalism, which would have been a a more obvious, safe choice. Instead, he went for MMA, which was like this fringe
02:52
really niche sport that, you know, I'd it was kind of like, you know, John McCain in New York is calling it human cockfighting. It's, like, not allowed in certain places. Yeah. And so it wasn't really, like, a a very safe choice, but he was the only dude doing it. It felt like it was, like, you know, you can go back, you know, fifteen years, basically, and you see clips of him talking to people backstage and just budget production value, but he was like the guy covering this regularly. And because of that, he's got, like, deep relationships, deep respect amongst the fans, to the point where even though Dana White, who's the president of UFC
03:23
hates him and has banned him from, like, UFC events,
03:27
He's still the number one journalist. So imagine, you know, like, this guy that that Roger Gadell, the commissioner of the NFL just hates and bans from the game, still being the number one you know, journalists for for the athletes, that's kind of,
03:40
unusual. And so, yeah, he's an interesting dude with a with a cool story. Yeah. I'm excited to have him. I I actually think that I I think that it's gonna the it'll be a hit with our listeners, even the people who aren't into UFC. I think it's gonna be a hit, but I am a fanboy. So we'll see.
03:56
Yeah. That's all good. Can I tell you about a business that is built on trust that I'm obsessed with at the moment? Okay. Go for it. Alright. Have you heard of examine dot com?
04:05
No. What is examine dot com? You've never heard that? Okay. Can you go to your computer now? You do you have? Okay. I'm at I'm at it. Let me go there. Alright. So Maybe I tell tell you what I see? Yeah. Okay. I go to examine dot com, and I thought it was gonna be about books or something. No. It says nutrition information you can trust. And then it's just like a giant, kinda like Google search bar. It's like, like, for example, oh, this is perfect, actually. My trainer was telling me about Ashwagandha. I see Ashwagandha years. I, I've been taking that for eight days now. Great. So it's a supplement. And so I go here. And I guess the idea would be,
04:35
hey, there's gonna be a lot of if you Google this, you're gonna find a lot of information, but we are a trusted source We do the research. We put the pros and cons here. We make it easy to understand. Is that the idea?
04:45
Yeah. So I'm gonna I'm gonna summarize this. So The reason this interests me is I have a friend named Saul, s o l, Orwell. He's a good buddy of mine. I'm not even met him, but we we went to a bunch of conferences and we were in the same room and we never met we became friends. And,
04:59
he's a great guy. And I just met him as a guy, and then I saw his business. And it's called examine dot com. And what it does is they do a a few things. So first,
05:08
they get about forty thousand visitors a day, and they get those visitors by having this free content what you're looking at, where it examines that supplement,
05:17
ashwagandha.
05:18
But
05:19
the model in which they make money is that they have a membership
05:23
that membership has supplement guides, and then they also have a thing where they look at all the recent studies, and they summarize it to tell you exactly what you need to know. And it'll say, this is a strong study, and the conclusion is this. This is a not great study, and the conclusion is this. And you should you should avoid it. And they do that with all types of studies. And, basically, the what the company is and I the I'll explain why I think this is a is a big deal. But, basically, They take knowledge that's locked up or complicated to understand, and they make sense of it into a really easy to understand,
05:53
way. And so they have I'm gonna give some stats. Forty thousand visitors a day, twenty employees,
05:58
seven figures in revenue, fifty thousand people have signed up for their membership or
06:04
But some of the guys, and that's only been around for about two years. The guides have or the membership. And so, they made money by selling guides. And so I bought this supplement guide. They have one on like, I I have, like, panic attack problems that I'm trying to fix, and they have guides on
06:20
it it listed all the it said here, if these six supplements
06:24
have been proven
06:26
by clinical trials to help with panic attack. And it lists them all, and it says, take this one. If you don't feel anything in two weeks, pair it with this one, and then pair it with this one. And they tell you and they go, and when you buy it, make sure that it's magnesium, not magnesium
06:40
say. Like, they tell you very specific stuff. And I think this business is amazing. It's amazing because they've spent years building up trust. So men's health,
06:49
doctor Andrew Schumer. Do you know who that is? He's that guy who has a YouTube where he talks about health stuff. He's, like, kinda going viral right now, which is on Joe rogan and Tim Fair. They all saw everyone sites examine dot com, New York Times sites examine dot com. They've spent years building up trust. Every word that they write is very meticulous.
07:05
Now they're starting to monetize. And this model, I actually think it's amazing. And I didn't at first, I was like, there's no way this can be a big idea. But there's this company called Up Todate. You've probably never heard of Up Todate. If you're listening and you're a doctor, you probably have heard of this. And so it's basically examine dot com, but for doctors, I mean, it's been around before examine dot com. So examine dot com is that for nutrition.
07:28
In this business, doctors pay, I believe, six hundred dollars a year, And they get the same exact thing. They get access to a content database that very explicitly and clearly says which clinical trials
07:39
proven, which are not, and what the conclusion is. And then, summarizes a bunch of stuff. Got so much money that makes a year.
07:45
I think a lot. I think I think probably I mean, I'm I'm just looking at up to date, and I think it has fifteen, you know, similar web shows about fifteen million visits
07:54
a month. So, that's pretty impressive. I would guess
07:57
Okay. I'm gonna go high. No. I'm gonna go low. It's always fun to to be blown away. So I'm gonna say fifty million a year. So the estimate is closer to five hundred million dollars a year in subscription I'm blown away. I'm blown away just as I hoped with my low estimate.
08:11
It's Isn't it isn't a city when you're trying to Yes. When you're trying to blow someone's mind? And then they estimate over it. You're like, well, okay. Not not that much, but it's still cool. And it's like, damn it. Like, you know, that should just be a rule amongst friends. I actually ballpark something, you know, let me let me blow you away. And the company that owns this does the same thing for finance tax and accounting, I believe, and that whole company is publicly traded. It does like five billion in sales a year.
08:36
Crazy business model, And there I'll tell you why this is interesting to me. This is interesting to me because I love content businesses. I love them. There's a huge problem with content businesses, which is They suck at making money if you're gonna make money in the most traditional way of banner ads or some type of buzzfeed style native ads. I fucking hate that. This model,
08:54
I love. Think that you could use this model for a bunch of different
08:59
categories,
09:00
including skin care, including beauty. I think that would be the next the the the the easiest one according to Sol.
09:06
What do you think about this business? It's pretty neat. Right? Genius. Yeah. So up to date makes total sense.
09:13
Yeah, like, I I am I'm surprised I I haven't heard of it. I am not surprised. Something like this exists and works. It just makes all the sense in the world. Examine dot com, also
09:23
very, very cool. And I think sort of, like, if if up to date is kinda like a b to b, examined. It's kinda like a a a b to c where it's like, you know, the average person who's just curate like you, I'm curious about panic attacks or I'm curious about Ashwagandha
09:35
I'm curious about, you know, whatever, El Karnateen.
09:38
And, you know, I hear about it. I hear some buzz, but I'm trying to be, like, smart and safe about things Where do I go that's not just trying to sell me shit and not just trying to, like, print page views as like a content form. And so I think that trust is you know, like, sort of, like, one of the only things that matters, you know, like, world of abundance. And that's where we are. We're we're in a world of abundance
10:00
And so trust is like one of the key,
10:03
key things.
10:04
And examine dot com, their rule is they don't recommend any brand. So you can't find any brand on their site. If they say take magnesium oxate, I was like, Seoul, just tell me, like, which brand? So I can just buy it on Amazon. He goes, no. We can't tell you that. You gotta go and figure that out because if wait for the day we start doing that is the day we start, like, incentivizing
10:24
the wrong shit. So it's pretty amazing business model. You know who else does this is consumer reviews. So consumer reviews, you probably don't use anymore. A lot of people who are younger or my age and younger don't use it anymore. So consumer reviews, it's wire cutter, but they charge a subscription. That company, it's actually a nonprofit. So you can actually look up their revenues. Their revenues
10:44
they charge a subscription revenue.
10:46
What did I say? Consumer review? Consumer report. Yeah. Consumer report. It was around it was, around before wire cut prefer wire cutter now, but consumer report is pretty amazing. They charge subscription revenue. They still do, like, a hundred and twenty million dollars in subscription revenue, and they're telling you, like, the best TV the best microphone, the best computer, and they crush it.
11:06
Yeah. So let me just,
11:08
consumer reports, subscription, news to end other sales. Twenty in the year twenty twenty, they did two hundred and twelve million dollars in re in subscription revenue. Crazy, right? Two hundred million. Subscription revenue. That's insane. Two hundred forty five million overall,
11:22
overall re revenue in twenty twenty insane.
11:25
I think if you're starting a media company and if I started it again,
11:29
If you didn't go subscription first, you're an idiot and you're a fool and you're a masochist and you like pain.
11:35
If I if I could do it all over again, knowing what I know now, I would only start that way, and it's totally the I think it's the best business model. Click it. Alright. Yeah. That's a good one. I I like that a lot. You've talked about this, you know, like, consumer reports for other things. Right? So you've talked about it for SaaS tools, and then some people have tried that g two and others,
11:56
have tried that. What do you think about that? What's your latest thinking on that? Because you've been thinking about that idea for a while. I think it's an amazing idea, and someone could still do it. G two has raised another round of funding
12:05
at, like, a multi billion dollar valuation. I think I think it still could be done. There's a company called J two Global. Have you heard J two Global?
12:13
No. Alright. Look up the stock of j two global right now for me. I I I'm act like I'm setting you up. I actually haven't looked at it in a while.
12:21
Is it good?
12:22
Okay. So j two global.
12:25
Alright. It's trading at a hundred thirty dollars a share. The market cap is six point three billion dollars. And,
12:31
yeah, you know, like, sort of year to date, it's almost double. So j two global, what they do is they own a handful of publications, including IIGN,
12:40
mashable, PC mag,
12:43
offers dot com, and one or two more. But basically, they make the bulk of the revenue, I believe,
12:48
from suggesting which software to buy in PC magazine, and that's how they make most of their revenue. And and it's a public and traded company. New look it all up. So I think this model can still crush it. I think PC Magazine is pretty much garbage. G two is okay.
13:02
Right. But anyway, I think it's a really big business that so many people are sleeping on.
13:06
And, you know, what else could you do this sort of trust trust model for? So I have I have one idea, but, I'm curious what else comes to mind for Skin Care and Beauty. That's what I I think it could be done. Skincare and Beauty. Because there's there's an ocean of there's an ocean of brands
13:22
and you kinda care about, you know, the the problem I think with that is you don't have fear. So that's that's one really good thing about supplements and medicine is that there's, like, a fear component to it. Right? Like, I don't wanna actually, like, die or get side effects from this thing or have have a, you know, sort of a big problem occur because of the potential benefits of something. Whereas with skin care, I think, yeah, you might break out or you might just wanna know which one's better, but it doesn't have that fear component where people are gonna look it up say before I buy this, I've really gotta check. And so I think that's one of the keys.
13:53
You know, there's, like, which one of these dishwashers is best? I think that's a consumer reports thing. It's like, oh, I don't wanna research this. Like,
14:00
oh, these guys test this for five thousand cycles, and they tell me which one lasts the longest and works the best. Like, okay. That's great. I was never gonna do that myself.
14:09
You know, I think that's one version where it's like tires. Which tire is the best tire to get? Which refrigerator is the best refrigerator to get? Then on the other side, there's the fear one, like, supplements, medicine, sort of like alternative medicines. What's what's gonna happen from those? I think those are two, like, especially good categories. And I think the difference of choosing the right category versus the wrong category is a multiplier of, like, Oh, yeah. Ten x or fifty x of your outcome. I I would imagine you could do the same for physical therapy. So the reason physical therapy is interesting. So, basically, I've had a injured Achilles for a about a year now, and I've been researching like crazy. And if you search,
14:44
Achilles's tendonitis, there's loads of different stuff, and I've been reading so many studies.
14:48
And what my conclusion now is this, there's only one way to fix your Achilles tendinitis, and that is to do
14:55
Well, no. No. No. No. You let's rest, but it's to do six sets
14:59
of fifteen
15:01
Achilles, like, a eccentric drop So what that means is you stand on a curb or a step and you slowly let yourself fall, and then you,
15:08
kinda step up and then slowly. And if you do that, and I read a study after study, it's almost like been unanimous that if you do this for three months every single day, your Achilles tendinitis will get better. And I had to dig so deep for that. And I think that something like this could exist for physical therapy and injuries and things like that. Right. Yeah. And I I I, yeah, I I kind of agree with you right now. My mom has this, like, she had vertigo, but then it kinda went away, but she still feels symptoms. And the doctor's, like, you don't have vertigo. She's like, you don't know. I get that. But what do I have? I have something. This is not right. And they're like,
15:39
blood work looks fine.
15:41
Then she has to call back and be like, hey, I know the blood work looks fine, but I'm not right. Yeah. What do I do? They're like, go to let's do an MRI same thing. And then it's, like, finally, Okay. Do these, like, do this physical therapy. So she literally walks around the house with a piece of paper in front of her that has, like, a letter on it. So her eye has to focus on it. She moves it to the right while she's walking and then moves it to the left while she's walking. It's like, dude, is this the exercise? Like, maybe it is. If it is, fantastic. But where how do we know that this is it and that there's not, like, a much faster, better way? Because previously when she had vertigo,
16:11
that was, like, vertigo proper, went to three doctors. Nobody knew what to do. The fourth doctor was like, oh, lay down and he, like, shook her head, like, vigorously, and it's like this known cure. And, basically, it, like, loosens up the crystal in the inner ear or whatever and she was, like, fixed in ten minutes. And she's like, wow. Like, if I just hadn't come to see you, how many more months or years would I just had vertigo? Like, that's a pretty scary thought. Yeah. I I think that could work. Or here's another thing. Do you know kyle you know anything about chiropractory?
16:36
I know. I know what what most people know, which is like, skeptical skeptical hypo wise our boyfriend, the job says. And I didn't know that. I thought cow sorry to chiropractors or chiropractors,
16:48
fans out there. But basically,
16:49
Kyropractor,
16:51
it was invented by a guy. I forget his name, but he was like a snake oil salesman. He was full of shit. And he thought that, like,
16:57
I'm gonna someone's gonna correct me because I'm kinda getting it wrong, but basically, like, there's, like, evil spirits or something in you. And if you ingest If you adjust the spine, it releases it. Now some chiropractory, like, can help very little. Like, but ninety percent, like, ninety percent of what chiropractors, what we think they do, you you you can't adjust your spine and, like, your headache stop. Like, that's just not how your body works. But it's nonsense. Right? Also, the the acceptance rate of chiropractor school is a hundred percent. It's like and it's like a it's like a Google AdSense certification. It's not like You know what I mean? I I know I'm gonna get flack for this. And yes, there are some chiropractors out there. A lot of it though is nonsense. And
17:36
I I think an examine dot com can exist for all types of parts of the body. So anyway, that's my idea on examine dot com. I thought it was interesting. I'm a bit obsessed with it. I'm currently on a vitamin regimen, and I discovered it on there. I thought it was cool. You wanna do another one? Yeah. Okay. So let me give you another trust as a service. So this is just like I'm calling this my two dollar blue collar side hustle right now, which is
17:58
here's the side hustle that will make you some bucks. It's not gonna be a huge business, probably It's not even maybe gonna be around five years from now. But I think right now, it's a thing you could do. So,
18:09
are you big on did you order a lot of food I'm a I'm a door dasher. Right? Like I am. I do, but not but not like you. You do, like, every meal.
18:17
Well, I mean, I I got a chef now, but even with the chef, there's still, you know, two to two meals a week where I'm like, let me just fire up the DoorDash and see what happens. It's so expensive. It hurts me. And so when when you get your meal, they all have this, like, sticker on it now that says safety sealed. And it's just all it is is, like, you know, normally it's, like, in and they would, like, tie the bag in a knot. And now they, like, sticker it to show, like, no human like, the food went in and then we sealed this shit. Because, like, viral videos of, like, DoorDash eating the food.
18:46
Either food, coughing in the food. I don't even know what the fear is. It's just, like,
18:51
I can't lie. When I see this sticker, I'm like, good. Yeah. I'm glad they sealed it. Like, good. I'd rather it be sealed than not sealed. That's for fucking sure. And it wasn't even a thing I was thinking about before, somebody is out there selling branded
19:01
safety seal stickers to restaurants. And I just think that in general, there's gonna be a whole wave. If you just said, I'm gonna sell trust and safety as a service.
19:10
I'm gonna sell it to every business
19:13
that needs to reassure its customers that is taking COVID safety protocol seriously.
19:18
And then you could you could dial that knob up to level twelve of, like, chiropractory where you're, like, I'm just gonna mail these to everybody.
19:25
They, yeah, put it on yourself honor code. This is the honor code system. You know, like, just just put the sign up in your in your restaurant.
19:32
Put this mat on the outside of your thing. Put this on every doorknob. Hang this on every doorknob.
19:37
You know, stick with the sticker on every cup, you know, whatever.
19:41
You could just send it, or you could actually, like, go out and verify and say, hey, here's our five point, you know, safety inspection, and we send mystery shoppers out or whatever. We, like, actually create kind of like a Zagot reviews
19:53
type of of sticker or seal of approval,
19:55
specifically
19:56
for trust and safety around COVID. That's the general idea. What do you think?
20:01
I love it. And I'm I'm gonna show you an example of of of something similar to this. Have you heard of I think it's pronounced Lead, l e e d.
20:09
Lead certified, the, like, green buildings thing?
20:12
Yeah. So I look at this up. So it's a nonprofit so you could easily see their sales. So that that wow. They do,
20:19
I think this is I I'm almost positive. It's run by a company called the US it's not a company, but a nonprofit, US Green Building Council.
20:28
And I think they is that it? Do you know?
20:30
No. But, yeah, I believe you.
20:32
And they do thirty one million dollars a year in sales. And, basically, I have no idea what the I have no idea why buildings are incentivized to do that. But I imagine the business model is such where you pay
20:44
l e e d lead. I guess it's what it is what it's called. And, oh, here, Dan says he's a former accredited professional for lead. So, that's
20:53
that's crazy. Dan, on on mute. Dan, wait. So okay. On a scale of one to chiropractor, where is lead certification?
21:01
It's nowhere near chiropractor. It's legit.
21:03
And, you are a lead accredited professional. What the heck does that mean? Did you pay for the first? Did you pay for this accreditation?
21:10
My company my former company did. Yeah. Okay. So somebody paid for you to get certified, and then you charged other companies to go give them the stamp of approval. Is that right?
21:18
Yeah. So as a professional, you get, like, one point towards the point total you need to become a lead building. And then there's, like, a silver gold platinum scale. And it's like, you know, you use the right kind of light bulbs, you use the right kind of insulation, that sort of thing when you're building your building, right, or renovating? Yep. Stuff like that.
21:36
Air quality, indoor air quality, which is really bad normally,
21:40
low use water, things like that. No smoking. And why? And why does it sound like a lead professional right now, bro. I feel getting lead certified as we speak. Why does a building care about getting lead certified?
21:52
Look. That's a good question. Yeah. I think it's a little bit of, just wanting to be green.
21:57
But there's no incentivize,
21:58
incentivization.
21:59
Like, there's but the government just does the government, like, give you anything, or is it simply just for branding and awareness?
22:05
I don't know. It's been fifteen years since I took the exam. So I'm, a little out of pace on it. But I'm not sure if there's a big incentive for it. Dan, how old are you?
22:13
I'm thirty five. Did this when you were twenty, you were a twenty year old lead certified? Might be around a little bit. I think I was twenty two when I took it. Okay.
22:21
More importantly, I got a lead certification. Go to my Twitter real quick. Just see what you see there. Dude, fuck that. I think you are the worst. That is so lame.
22:32
So Did you be verified? So lame? Are you kidding me? Sean got verified.
22:35
He's got a blue check mark. I think that is the lamest dude. You are not one you're not a man of the people anymore. You're so out of touch for giving me. I used to shit on,
22:45
I don't need that. I don't need that.
22:48
You know, what what does that mean anyway? But who cares about that anyways? You know, I actually prefer not to and now that I have it,
22:55
all that all that bullshit is out the window. I am So
23:00
glad I got the blue check. Well, I got it for, like, actual legit reasons. Like, first, I was just I wanted it for my ego for many years, but I was, you know, kid, whatever happen to who cares? But then people started actually, like, impersonating me and scamming my followers. So there were all of these accounts that get created every month. And they would go DM. My followers, like, hey. Yeah. What's up? And people were like, oh, hey. Thanks for the DM. I'm like, no problem. You know, I saw you follow me.
23:24
You know, what what are you doing with your portfolio lately? And they would scam them into either
23:29
sending them crypto or buying random crypto shit coins, or they were
23:34
getting them to, like, buy stocks or, like, send them, like, send them money to go, like, invest in their like, be they, like, pretended they were my fund. And so people were actually, like, you know, it used to just hurt my feelings that I wasn't verified, but then it was actually, like, hurting other people. And so I was like, dude, what's fuck. So I was bitching about it. Yeah. And, I get I get that.
23:52
I get that. But that's the only reason I'll accept.
23:56
I think every other reason is bullshit. I know I think they're stupid. What's that?
24:01
It's a little jealousy I was smelling. I I I don't know. Like, I think you kinda want the blue check mark too. I think the people on Twitter at Twitter need to help you out. I think I'm I think I'm barely famous enough to get it, but
24:13
I I will not get it. I'm not you have cryptobrows call you. Tell me right now. You push a button and you could just have it or not have it. No. Nothing else. Just push this little key on your keyboard. You tell me you wouldn't push that button. I give you my word. I will not push that button. Wow.
24:27
But but
24:28
but if I
24:29
if I end up having scams like you, then yes. But I've not had that. I've not had that problem. Yeah. It became like a legit problem. Anyways, So, okay, lead certification. So, yeah, basically, I think, I think lead is another good one. Like, I would love if somebody just took on lead, and just called it like, you know, Green Home.
24:47
Oh, you oh, you're you're a Green Home Triple Star? Wow.
24:53
Doesn't that sound good already? Yes. And, like, again, if you could turn the knob, how like, you can go super legit. If you really, like,
25:00
find ways that you could kinda score buildings,
25:02
or you could, like, be somewhere in the middle and, you know, build scam, but, like, I would do that. The service is a great business. I actually think that the health department's
25:12
scorecard
25:12
is bullshit.
25:14
So I had a hot dog stand. I mean, duh,
25:17
I I talked about that too. Really? Can you tell that story? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't drink either.
25:24
And, when when they when they did my health certificate,
25:28
like, I just bullshit it through it, like, hardcore.
25:31
And, like, I mean, I my shit was clean, but, like, they had all these boxes we had to check, and it was bullshit. But in the day that we were doing it, I actually was wearing flip flops. And they gave me a ninety five instead of a hundred.
25:43
And so, like, I think you're gonna not. Gross toes out while you're making hot dogs. Yeah. Nobody wants that. We're out and a hundred degrees selling meat that's been sitting there for the, like you know what I mean? Like, forever? Like, it's it's fucking disgusting anyway. I have a I I it is super I worked. So with our my first thing was a sushi restaurant, and we had a commissi we worked out of a commissary kitchen, which is like a it's a central kitchen where, like, caterers and bakers it's like a kitchen without a storefront.
26:08
So in there, where's all the food truck guys. And so you so in that, I saw the hierarchy of, like, degeneracy. It's like caterers. Like Bakers.
26:17
Bakers are good people. Bakers are are nice women who care about their product and they do a great job and they're very hygienic. And then caterers are like kinda like they're like bakers. They're they're legit, but, you know, the the the demands on a caterer are so high. It's always higher urgency. They're preparing for a two hundred person party or whatever. So, you know, they're kinda get shit done. They'll cut through the red tape, but, you know, you you you respect their decisions.
26:40
Then there's the fucking food truck guys. Food truck guys,
26:44
they they think this is a bar. They're just drunk while they're prepping their tacos. They're pretty disgusting. And then you have the hot dog guy at the end. This guy straight up okay. So there's, like, a sync. And if you don't know what a three compartment sync is, you haven't paid your blue collar dues, But, basically, the three compartment sink is, like, kinda where you do the dishes in a in a commercial kitchen.
27:02
And, like, the three three compartment sink is just literally it's full of, like, the dirtiest dishes
27:08
and just a chemical bomb you put in there to, like, clean them. And the fucking hot dog guy in our calms area kitchen would just go and he'd just fill up the sink with dogs that he's gonna be selling, like, three hours later. You'd just be throwing the hot dogs around there, washing them, dry, you know, put them in the other sink to dry off. It's like, This guy, there was zero, and I literally I don't think I've had a hotdog since,
27:28
because I saw how the sausage was made, and I, you know, never wanna see it that's my focus service announcement. Don't eat Yeah.
27:35
I agree. I was clean. I mean, I kept myself clean, but I can see why most don't you can get you don't have to. You can just get away with it. It's not even counting what's the meat. I'm sorry. Like, forget the meat. Let's say the meat was pure, the way it's handled, disgusting. So I think you could build a new version of a of a of a health department score, actually. I I actually think that's legitimate. So how many other, could we just do this, like, I'm bullshit about Twitter right now. Could you just do this where it's, like, you have a con you have, like, a content score? Like, you know, I'm just, like, how, you know, either, like, how, like, you know,
28:06
safe and kind of, like, non offensive your content is. Like, maybe it's something that's, like, you know, it's around your
28:13
interesting this or your fan score, like, how much your fans care about you? We just bullshit, like, your engagement score. But we make it really visible. It's like,
28:21
Sam, he may not have the most followers, but his followers love him. It's like we make your q score. Yeah. You know what q q is? It's like a popularity ranking.
28:29
We just make some Oh, you haven't heard this q score. It's like a thing for celebrities.
28:33
Yeah. It's a thing for, like, Hollywood celebrities. Like, what's your what's your popularity kind of, like, it's not approval rating. It's like your popularity rating. How how well do people know you? And, like, you know, Obama has a high q score. And Oh, yeah. Feel like you could do that on social media with cloud, but just like bullshit the whole thing.
28:50
Yeah. I I I I think that's crazy. I don't think that's good. Cloud score. Actually think Cloud was amazing. So Cloud was a company that was around. It was spelled k l o u t.
29:00
They had, like, a hundred employees. They raised a lot of money. They ended for a hundred million dollars. I think it was like a hundred million dollars of stock in a privately held company. Like, I don't think it was actually that could have an exit. But they,
29:10
great idea, cloud, early. You're just too early. Amazing idea.
29:13
Way too early. Amazing idea. If it were around now, it would be the best. I actually thought somebody restart Cloud and just DM us. I thought it was it was the great branding, and people still, to me, make jokes about Cloud. Like, they'll be like, increase that cloud score. And I know what they're talking about. I had a cloud score and basically what happened. I mean, my cloud score wasn't that great. I had, like, five thousand friends on Facebook, though. And so I qualified. And so McDonald's The fact that you're justifying it shows how good of a hook this is. How much I would use it all the time. McDonald's would send me a five dollar gift card once a month. Right. Yeah. Like, amazing. It was it was so cool. I loved cloud. So I think that could exist, and I think that could that could kick ass.
29:53
I think this is like yeah. I think there's a lot of And by the way, I don't even think you really need to do that much differently. Right? Like, there's I'm sure there's like twenty percent of things you would tweak.
30:02
Maybe in the execution, like, you know, maybe you don't have to raise that much money. I think the timing is the biggest tweak that you needed to make. Maybe you change the way it's calculated or the way you promote it or the business model, whatever. I don't think you need to change that much. I just think that the time the time is now and, like, as Donald Trump basically created this thing called fake news, I think fake news is very underrated how, like, big of a wave that actually was created, how much distrust there is around around brands and entities now. And so people are kind of like the atomic unit of a brand at this point. And so, yeah, I I think that
30:34
that clout. Clout should be remade. How about the fact that so HubSpot has a hub. So this one woman who works with me just got scrum certified And we paid five grand. It was five thousand dollars or four thousand dollars. And I'm like, so scrum, I I I don't even know what it is. I guess it's just like a, a project management.
30:50
It's how you manage, like, engineering sprints. Yeah. And we paid five grand. And I was like, who the heck, like, is the scrum, like, decision maker And then I realized HubSpot scrum master, by the way. Is it really? Oh my god. It's not so much more like legit that it that it probably really is. HubSpot has HubSpot certification courses. And if you look on people's LinkedIn, they they brag about passing HubSpot certification courses. We gotta talk I gotta talk to HubSpot. I'll be like, did I'm like, look, like, you guys are amazing and wonderful and legit, but, like, you weren't always amazing, wonderful and legit. You were just starting out and you somehow convince people to trust you and take this seriously. Right. How on earth did you do that? Because that's amazing. So they paid HubSpot. So the so HubSpot is the collector of the five thousand dues for the scrum training.
31:31
No. Sorry. The the there's a different organization that does scrum, but HubSpot, you've never seen people brag about their HubSpot certification. So, like, if you Google HubSpot certification,
31:40
They've got, like, these classes on social media. People if they tried to write to me about that. So so
31:45
that's the immediate block. So there's, like, inbound sales, HubSpot marketing soft inbound marketing. And if you Google peep if you Google like that and LinkedIn, there's so many people that put that on their LinkedIn, like, certified in,
31:59
whatever. Like, there's so many people that cite,
32:03
HubSpot as their thing. And so, like, and so they put it, like, you know, how, like, one time if you look up Tyra Banks on LinkedIn, she probably still does this. She puts that she graduates from Harvard. Okay? She went to a Harvard
32:15
executive
32:16
learning day.
32:18
And people put, like, how
32:20
yeah. It's like a two day.
32:21
Look at, like, a if you look tire banks. Let's see if it's a goal. Okay. Okay. So she did a nine week,
32:27
a program for executive. It was called the the owner president management extension program. Yeah. Dude, Harvard makes it unbelievable. I'm gonna break this down next to next podcast. Harvard's kind of whole business model around online programs, Harvard business review, the the the media company, I'm gonna break that whole thing down because it's free. I'll just do it with you. I've studied the business review a bunch. Alright. Can I tell you about another another idea or a person, actually? Yeah. Alright. There's this guy named Matt. How do you pronounce his last name?
32:53
From, flip Which or whatever?
32:56
Man. I don't wanna butcher this guy. Mick,
32:59
Sorry, Matt. I I like you. I just don't know how to spell your last name. Micah Wicks. Like Mickey,
33:04
and then with the wicks at the end. Mickey Wicks. Alright. Micah wicks.
33:07
I've known about this guy for a long time, but I'm gonna tell you everything that he's done because I bet you you know all of his work, but you maybe didn't know he was the one behind it. So in nineteen ninety eight, when he lived in Australia, he started this company while he was in high school called SitePoint.
33:21
SitePoint basically is a publisher of books, courses, and articles, for, developers. And so you can, like, learn HTML, CSS, Java, all that. They they've never raised any funding, and they have, like, fifty employees. I imagine if I had a bet, they probably make five to ten, maybe five to fifteen million dollars a year.
33:38
That's my guess.
33:40
Well, how do you spell it? Mitskevic.
33:43
Mitzkevic.
33:44
Miskovich. His name's Matt Michovich.
33:47
Have you heard of site point site point dot com? No. Is it still around? Alright. It's still around. And so, like, I've heard his story. He was like, basically, I started like, as a form and then a blog, and people would come to my form and blog, and I was taking, like, ten thousand dollar advertising checks when I was, like, seventeen high school. So I dropped out of high school and went all in on Then when he went all in on it, his forum on-site point, people were buying and selling businesses on it. And so he spun out one of the the forums into its own business called Flippa. You've heard of Flippa. Right? Yes.
34:14
So I believe they prolific.
34:17
He's really prolific because you haven't even got the two of his hits.
34:20
Listen. So we started Flippa, which is a marketplace for buying and selling smallish websites and stores and and and things like that. They've got millions of users. Flippa is, like, not micro requires in the space, but Flippa is, like, considered, like, the thing. And in fact, I think they just raised a little bit of funding, like, twenty million dollars recently. It's got hundreds of employees. It's a pretty big business. Third,
34:39
on side point, he also discovered that people in the forum were,
34:45
buying and selling designs. And so he started this thing called ninety nine designs, which is amazing. Ninety nine designs is one of the best sites that I've used It's a great place to you basically you on ninety nine designs, you give them a thousand dollars, you tell them what you want, and, like, a hundred designers give you a mock up of what if they think that your project should look like, and then you pay for you the one you like and they get the money. So they they do close to a hundred million, I believe, in revenue. They've raised forty five million dollars in funding. Okay? From there, He also saw that people were hiring all types of devs. So he started hired dot com. Higher dot com, I think it kind of fizzled out a little bit. It might still be around. Definitely around, but it kind of fizzled a little, but they raised a hundred and thirty two million dollars in funding. Definitely could still be quite big. So that's pretty amazing.
35:26
Then he now his next thing is he's creating and so this is all has to do with site point. He started site point in nineteen ninety eight. His next thing is called unstop domains. You know what that is? I bet you know what that is better than I do. Go ahead.
35:37
It's just a way to buy,
35:39
buy domains in crypto. So, like, I have a domain that ends instead of dot com, it ends in dot eth, which is dot e t h. Right? So it's a it's a domain name service, like
35:51
it's a it's a domain, domain, I think it's a registrar. So this is a domain registrar for making crypto domains. And the reason it's called unstoppable domains is because When you own that name space, nobody it's on the blockchain. Nobody can sort of take it away from you. Nobody can switch the rules on you.
36:07
It is sort of there for
36:08
So this guy, Matt, Mitskovich, has done all of it. Started by the way. I think he joined it, which is I DMmed and when he joined it, because I was like, if if the guy who's a founder of all these successful companies joins a company, it's like one of the strongest signals that there could be.
36:24
Like, just recently, I I'll say this about,
36:27
my my friend, Scott David Mackintosh. She started
36:30
tenor, It's a it's a gift keyboard, sold it to Google for, I think, couple hundred million dollars. And then he joined Instacart as, like, one of their execs.
36:39
You know, like, anytime you're you it's like this person's independently,
36:42
massively wealthy
36:43
has wanna start their own company. And they if they wanna join as, like, not even, like, join as number one. It wasn't joint as CEO. Didn't join a CTO, just CPO. He was, like, you know, maybe, like, in the top ten of the instant work execs. So that's when you know, like, oh, shit. This is like,
36:58
this is a juggernaut. That's this this person thinks this is a hundred billion dollar company if they're doing something. That's crazy to me. So the and this guy made Let me just tell you. So I DMmed him. I go. You joined unstoppable super interesting move. I said, what makes you bullish on it? Here's what he said. I'm just gonna read it out loud.
37:12
May or may not mean anything. He goes, there's a trillion dollar asset class,
37:17
which is basically domains
37:19
that people are navigating using the equivalent of an IP address.
37:22
If web encrypt if web three encrypto is here to stay, then building the identity,
37:27
like, the the the, basically, the address, for consumers is one of the most important companies of the decade
37:32
that he's, like, in the normal normal web, you have I can. You know what I can is? It's like Yeah. So it's like a it's like a it's like a committee, which is kind of bullshit to me, but It's the committee that decides shit about the internet. What domains can be, you know, can you have a photo or dot biz. Yeah. Domain, like, I can kinda decide those types of things. He goes, it's one of the oldest monopolies on the internet. It's begging to be disrupted.
37:54
Crypto gives us a way to disrupt that because it's creating like a new a new ground where they don't have jurisdiction. They don't have rule of law over there.
38:03
That's one of the few crypto examples or blockchain examples where I wholeheartedly agree. And I think that's actually incredibly useful and totally right. I don't know who's gonna host the domain or, like, how that works, but I agree with that, like, idea because if if you're doing something, I can or whoever,
38:18
can can pull it. Right.
38:22
Yeah. Anyway, so, so something that he was just telling me a little bit more about it. But I was like, yeah, that's That's great. That's cool. And I I bought it on sample domain.
38:30
This guy is amazing. So, and get this. He's thirty seven.
38:35
He's only thirty seven years old. Wild.
38:37
Amazing. This is have you you've heard him obviously. Don't really yeah. People don't really know about this guy. Like, or they don't really talk about this guy. But he's it's a pretty prolific career, and he's kind of, like,
38:48
independent
38:49
and definitely like a,
38:51
I don't know. He's a independent thinker. I could tell. Right? Because nine nine designs is actually a pretty, like, very novel mechanism. It's like, oh, what if we created kind of like a design auction? Right? It's the best. It's the best. Like, we used it for our podcast thumbnail or our cover photo or our podcast art that's gone through ninety nine designs. And check this out. When we did it, HubSpot
39:09
like, had all these designers work on this stuff, and they made, like, some pretty good logos. And then but we still went with, this guy in the Philippines who made this logo, and it was even it was better than all of them. The the the trends dot co website I had designed on there because, like, you know, like, when you work with the designer, you don't wanna be rude to your own designer. Be like, no. This sucks. Can you just do exactly what I told you to do, please? But you can do that with a freelancer a little bit more than a full timer. So I'm I'm a fan of ninety nine designs. And by the way, it looks like there's this guy Mark, who is his co founder, because it says co founder of ninety nine designs, FlipPA, and Site Point outside. That's pretty cool. I like when people create this kinda like duo and it's like, yeah, let's just build a bunch of companies together. I find that to be like, pretty inspiring.
39:49
And it tells you something about how somebody has to work with if somebody wants to keep going back in and, and work with you again. And I've talked to this guy. I actually invited him to hustle con two or three different times, and he committed, and then some scheduling stuff happened. And we wasn't weren't weren't able to make a make it happen, but I've talked to him on the phone. He's very humble.
40:08
So,
40:09
I'm a big fan of this guy. Yeah. Me too. Okay. So he's kinda like our our little, you know, internet founder of the week. I don't know if we even need a name for that. We we have the Billy of the week. We got the blue collar side hustle. We need something just founders were badass. We've done, like, serial
40:23
serial serial entrepreneurs.
40:25
Yeah. This guy's great. Alright. You wanna you wanna do one or two more?
40:29
Yeah. Let's do some other ones. Okay. So,
40:32
do you know this company, Guthi Rancor?
40:34
I bet you know about it, and I bet most of them I can tell you all about them. Tell me tell me all about it. So last night Alright. So I've been on this I've been on this binge. I gotta say, I've been on this binge.
40:45
I I'm rereading
40:47
the book that really got me
40:49
into
40:51
being, like, kinda like a startup founder. Can I can I guess? Can I guess? Yes.
40:56
Think and grow rich.
40:58
No. But that is a good guess, especially based on what we're talking about. I actually haven't read that book. So I'm gonna I want to read it now after reading about Guppy Rinker. But,
41:07
I
41:08
am rereading
41:09
the four hour workweek. So, you're you're bud. Tim Farris,
41:14
wrote this book. I got it right when I was starting my first company. So I I started my company before this. But once I started reading it, I was like, oh, wow. This there's people that are like me that are out there who think this way, and this guy's got, like, systems about this. I'm just I just started figuring this stuff out. This guy's like, but doing this for a decade. Great. And I got what you call the four hour fever, which is what happens. Right? After you read the book, as my own term, because I I've given this book to maybe fifty people since, and they all get the four hour fever right after I I infect them with the book.
41:44
And,
41:45
it's already a long time ago. We already lived the four hour work week class. So now we live it. And so I went back and I'm rereading it. Right? I'm like, okay. I'd rather, yeah, I wanna reread the classics. And so I went back and rereading it. And I just wanna see,
41:57
you know,
41:58
what of it do I still believe in? What of it? Do I disagree with what's changed? Anyway, it's pretty interesting. I'm I'm taking a ton of notes. And I texted you this while I was reading it, I go, let's write a best selling book. Ten million copies sold.
42:10
The next four hour work week. And then you're like, okay. Easy.
42:14
And I was like, alright. Perfect.
42:16
Because I'm serious about that. Like, obsessed with this. So I've just been writing content. I've been writing, and I've been reading all weekend long. Like, I've just been binging. Like, I'm up to four in the morning every night. Doing this. And I'm, like, pretty convinced that we could put out, like, an amazing amazing book. So anyways, that's, like, you know, just calling my shot.
42:34
Gonna do that. Don't be surprised. We're gonna use well, I wanna be involved. Let me let's Dink. That's what I'm saying. I I I invited. I wanted to do. I'm, like, I'm doing it either way, but I was, like, what would be the best? I go, what if the best writer I know partner with me on this? And we traded off chapters. So, like, I can say something. I'll write a chapter. And I what I want you is basically I want you to read it and then you write what you would write right after you read that. So it's like,
42:59
you know, like, actually, I totally agree with Sean with this one. I have my own story of how I did that or
43:04
disagree. I do it totally differently. And I just think that if we play off of each other a little bit, it can become a very interesting book because there's not many books that are that are out there that are like that. That may all change, but that's what's in my head. I also think that we should do there's one book that had a pretty fundamental change in my outlook, and it's called founders at work. And it was by Jessica Livingston, the woman who started,
43:24
like y Combinator with, Paul Graham, their husband and wife. And,
43:28
basically, it was just interviews,
43:30
but for some reason, it was really special, and it was just interviews transcribed. I think we could do just interviews
43:37
and write our analysis and and reply to the interviews.
43:40
And we I I read that book on a plane. I still remember it because there's a chapter in there about Hotmail.
43:45
And I just remember reading that book and being like, this is Awesome. This is what is this what it's like to start a company or be around people that start companies? This is fucking awesome. And then, you know, by the way, I hope this podcast ends up being that for some number of people in the world right now. And that could be our first book if you want because that's, like, a pretty easy and actually amazing and could be fun. I don't even care on the details. I I just know ten million copies sold best seller. For some people, this is their version of four hour work. What four hour work was for me? Want this to be that for, like, a whole, you know, a million people out there. I think that would just be amazing. So let's talk about gun three raker. Can I tell you what I know and you could tell me if it's true or not? Yeah. Explain them. I I did a deep dive on them last night. So, Alright. Let me look. Doing gaps. Alright. So they are a
44:29
marketing and IP owners. So they own, like, a it's a business that markets other stuff. They mostly don't develop their own products, but they buy products where they license them.
44:39
It started by a guy named Steven
44:41
Gunthry. Is that his name? That's a guy. One of his last name is Guthi.
44:45
Gutthi.
44:47
Another guy's last name is Rinker. So that's And they and they started, I think, as early as the early eighties, they are in marketing, and they basically bought infomercials.
44:57
And one of their first big hits was they bought the rights to the book Think and Grow Rich. And they created infomercials and direct response copywriting ads that they put in magazines, and they sold shitloads of this book, like, millions. And then they just risk repeated,
45:11
and then they eventually bought proactive. They own proactive own proactive and they own a bunch more. They probably do a bill north of a billion in sales, and they do the same type of model. Go ahead. So so it's a infomercial,
45:21
it's a direct response company, which basically is they've made their name by doing infomercial based sales,
45:26
and they do about between one and a half to two billion in sales a year. They own brands that you've heard. They they they they brought brands to market that you've heard of, like proactive.
45:35
Also Tony Robbins, his kind of personal power, like, audiobooks.
45:39
Thinking for Rich. So, okay. So here's kind of of the cool stuff I I I found out about them. Okay. So how did it start?
45:45
One of the guys, I think Duffy, he had started a company, and this is how funny the world works and why Really, all you gotta do is just get in the game and start making shit happen because nobody could have predicted this path. Right? So he starts a company that just does audio cassette production.
46:00
So, like, copying. So, like, you have a cassette. You want more copies of that cassette? Send me the send me the original recording. I'll make you a bunch of copies. So it's basically, like, this guy's a fucking, like, kinkos. Right? Like, it's just like a printer,
46:12
for audio cassettes. And he gets this order, and this guy says, hey, I need two hundred to two hundred fifty or sorry. I don't know why I said that. This is a small number.
46:22
Basically, the guy wanted almost almost a hundred thousand cassettes made. He goes, a hundred thousand. What are you making? And,
46:28
you know, it ended up being fifty thousand copies of a cassette that was about real estate, about how to make money doing real estate investments.
46:34
And he's like, wow. This is that's amazing. And he looked up the company, and the guy was selling through infomercials.
46:40
So he goes to his buddy, ranker. And ranker at this time, I think, had his family owned, like, kind of like a a resort, like a tennis resort or something like that. So anything that could probably come from a good family. So then he goes, hey, dude, this guy ordered for me fifty thousand copies of this cassette. It's amazing.
46:56
Forget making cassettes. Like, let's do this infomercial thing. That must be amazing.
47:01
And so they go, okay. What are we gonna do? We need a product. And so they that's when they were like, hey. What's what's something we're both into? It's like they both had made their bones. They both really love this book think and grow rates. So that's when they went and bought the rights to it for a hundred thousand dollars.
47:16
They ended up making ten million dollars in the next three years. Off of sales of Think and Grow Rich. Right? They basically bought the rights of Think and Grow Rich, and they produced this infomercial. They hire this football player Frank Tarkenton
47:28
to do it. They go. If you and by the way, I watched the full thirty minute infomercial last night at four in the morning. I'm, like, I'm, like, watching this thing and
47:37
You could find it on YouTube, but it has eight hundred and seventy five views on this video.
47:41
And, basically,
47:42
it's this infomercial, and it starts with, like,
47:47
this production. And it's basically, like,
47:49
these pea it's kinda like testimonials, but they don't tell you what the product is. It's like, you know, I always wanted to just own my own business. I was so tired of working for somebody else. And then finally, I felt like this is the solution broken down into tactical steps. They don't tell you their name. Right? And then it's like an interview with the founder of Domino's. He's like, I never went to college.
48:08
I had the lowest GPA in my high school class.
48:11
But I read this book. And afterwards, you know, like, it became my blueprint for how I started Domino's.
48:18
And, like, it's like, it's like, what's the book? What's so they just get you, like, salivating. What's the book? And then three minutes in Frank Tarket that comes on, he says,
48:25
you know, the richest people in the world. Andrew Carneyy,
48:29
and the Ross Childs and whoever else, like all these people, are Andrew Carnegieke commissioned this guy to go study what the most successful people on earth, the Ross Childs and others,
48:38
were doing. And he went and he interviewed all of them, and he packaged and he packaged all that, not that knowledge and wisdom into a book that's been a best seller for years. It's the book that executives say is their secret weapon. Blah blah blah. And it's just, like, so it's, like, such a hard sell, but that's, like, what infomercials are. It's, like, once you get in, you're, like, Alright. I'll bite. What is it? See you're like, okay. I'll order the thing. And so that's how they sold think and grow rich. It's kinda like an amazing information. Right? I recommend you go watch it if you're kinda like a marketing
49:04
by the way, they bought that in nineteen eighty eight. So a hundred grand is the equivalent of is this true? Only two hundred and twenty five thousand dollars. So it's only two point two x.
49:14
And when they,
49:16
what would the takeaway here should not be like, I can't do that nowadays.
49:21
But, actually, the if you look at the infomercial
49:24
and if you go and if you Google, like, Guthrie Raker infomercial breakdown or if you just go and make your own and you look at you break it down and you, like, copy it word for word and you break down the sections and you apply that section to a sales letter right now
49:39
it one hundred percent will continue to work. Right.
49:41
Like, if you see their infomercial, like, the ladies are gonna be wearing, like, nineteen eighties clothes and the guys love weird haircuts and you're like, I got it. So old, you know, it will continue to work. And TV infomercials at the time was, like, dirt cheap. So they were they when they did the Think of Growage, they just bought TV space and six small TV markets. And, like, you could buy the midnight slot, the two AM slot. And these are basically, like, is essentially free. They needed some programming to fill airtime.
50:07
And so these started out really, really cheap. Now it's gotten much more expensive. Right? So, like, let's take proactive. I think proactive at its heyday or or, you know, kinda like some you know, this is maybe a ten year old data at this point, but they were spending about two hundred fifty million dollars a year just on the media buying. So just on the infomercial space, and then they're spending
50:28
Like, because if you go if you watch a proactive thing, it's like Justin Bieber was their, like, signature person. Right? Because proactive was basically saying, hey, teens. You don't need You don't have to have acne. You can get rid of your acne this way. And Justin Bieber was, like, you know, the teen idol with great skin. And so it was, like,
50:43
Justin Bieber and Adam Levin
50:45
and, like, you know, the the maroon five guy. Like, there's all these people. Right? Britney, I don't know who else it was. But they they would get paid five to ten million
50:53
dollars to appear in a proactive infomercial,
50:56
like, crazy money for for an influencer. Like, that's a big influencer spend. And so this is just influencer marketing
51:03
done, like, at level twelve as I like to say. Right? Like, what is the what is the maxed out version of this proactive is the maxed out version of it. And so they own, like, a bunch of brand. They own, like, globe by J lo. It's like, you want J lo skin? By j lo's glow. Then it's like, oh, you want, this other supermodel skin by her thing. It's a very much around skin care because that, I guess, is, like, one of the, like,
51:24
you know, that's, like, the sweet spot of, like, price, big market, and celebrity endorsements go a long way. The two big niches are fitness.
51:33
Or I would say three. Skincare,
51:35
fitness, self help. So, like, Tony Robbins became, like, a household name using this on the self help side. On the fitness side, they had a bunch of different brands, and then beachbody took the same playbook, and they created p ninety x and the beachbody program. Using the same same idea. They became competitors.
51:50
There's a guy. I'm trying to think of what? What's it called? It's called,
51:54
mind something. I'm trying to look it up. But, basically, there's got It's not mind body, but it's similar to that word. I can't remember what it was. Mind
52:02
Valley. Yes. You do exactly what I was talking about. Like Philippines or Thailand or I don't know where they're based. Someone's like this. Yeah. There's some I don't wanna be disrespectful, but there's some weird stuff going on with this company. I don't know what the truth is. But, basically, if you look at this company Mind Valley, Mind Valley dot com, he does this now. And basically, this company, what they do, they probably do fifty million a year in sales And what they do is they buy programs from people. So they have one called LifeBook, one called
52:29
Om I think that's a
52:31
yoga thing, and then they have Ever Coach, which is,
52:34
I actually don't know what some of these services are, but they have a bunch of these And what they do is they find people who have, like, a yoga course or
52:42
some type of program on so they have programs on sleep. They've got programs on yoga. On, meditation. It's like health, wellness, and hippy dippy shit. You know, it's like a combination of, like, very legit to, like,
52:55
you know, like tantric astrology whatever. You know, like, it could be anything. And they're experts
53:00
on long form copywriting, which is basically an infomercial
53:04
and they're really good at buying traffic.
53:07
And they make tens of millions of dollars a year in revenue all bootstrapped.
53:11
And so if you wanna look at the internet version of this, there's also Agora, which is a one point five billion dollars. And another version of this is, we have a guy named Craig is Craig Clemens. We had a guy named Craig Clement. His business is called Golden Hippo. They own, I think, eight or nine brands. And I think if I remember correctly, didn't he say they do, like, mid nine figures in revenue? Yeah. I think I think Golden Hippo or or buddy Craig company, I think it's on par with Guthi Rancor,
53:39
in terms of, like, sort of, like, success.
53:41
I think Guthi Rancor does does over a billion in sales. So, you know, it's it's the next level. But Golden Hippo is that from the internet for the for the internet instead of instead of TB infomercials,
53:52
They basically just do it with, like, long form blogs and then long form embedded videos. So if you ever, like, go down the rabbit hole, like, I've tried to do it. I've tried to figure out, look at some of his brands. They hide their brands. They hide them really well. Hard to find. But when you do find one, you're like, oh, okay. And then it's hard to find where they advertising. It's like, Okay. So they buy a display ad through Taboola
54:11
on some random article, and it's for a toe cream,
54:14
toe fungus removal,
54:16
and then you click that and then you watch a forty minute video that auto plays with no pause or skip button. And then by the end of that, you're like, goddamn. Like, you know, if you ended up making it there, you're almost certainly gonna buy this token. Then you subscribe to the SMSes and you get, like, text messages from this legit doctor
54:33
who, you know, is the face of the brand. It's kinda like the the the the the, you know, like Rodanne and Fields is another one, which spun out of Gunthy Raker. It's basically, like, two they created proactive. I think it's two dermatologists that created the formula for proactive, and then they left to create a Rodandan in fields, which is a multi level marketing company that does this that created their own create a new formulations of this one they owned, you know, a hundred percent. I think that's a multi billion dollar company as well. And if you're on your computer listening to this, one of Golden Hipos brands is called
55:03
Gundry MD. I think doctor Steven Gundry,
55:06
a lot of pea he's kind of famous, I think. He's not famous in my world, but I think he's famous in, like, kinda mainstream world, actually. Yeah. Gungry m d dot com is their website. Go to that website and look at this website,
55:18
and it they make it look like it's small, like, most for you and pop thing. First thing, peak mobility plus. It's all about you, mobility. You you run mobility.
55:27
And even tell dog food. It's, like, it's it's a pretty wild business. And I think this is their most popular brand. This brand, if you told me it does a hundred million in sales, I actually wouldn't be surprised. But if you didn't know better, you go to it, you would have no idea.
55:41
Right. And this is all about, like, gut health, plant based, you know, plant based eating,
55:46
stuff like that. And so, like, you know, I get their text messages all the time. Like, don't, you know, don't get leaky gut syndrome, like, by this thing. And,
55:54
and so, you know, it's very fascinating. And and The reason I like bringing these up or, like, what you brought up. I think all the companies you brought up today are cool because
56:03
if you work in our our like most of our friends who are, like, successful internet entrepreneurs,
56:09
tech people, Silicon Valley executives at big tech companies they will have never heard of any of this. In fact, I did a breakdown of one of golden hippos
56:17
flows,
56:18
and I sent it to all the execs at Twitch. I go, hey. I went down the a whole of this, like, they laughed at you. They laughed at you. They were just like, fascinating,
56:25
and they went back to doing, like, you know, spending millions of dollars on Facebook ads that just said download Twitch And it's like,
56:32
okay. Like, you know, like, is there any creativity we could do here, like, to to try to, like, like, I just showed you one of the most creative things. And, like,
56:40
Nobody really cared. Nobody asked any follow-up questions. Some people were just like, cool. Send it to me. Send it to me. I'm gonna send it to you. It was it's crazy to me. And so, like, So I I feel like there's a lot you can learn from from these kinda under the radar brands or nontraditional.
56:56
And a lot of people just write them off. They're like, oh, infomercial.
56:59
Sleazy, affiliate marketing, sleazy, MLM sleazy, and, like, you may be right about, like, the the sort of, like, the that these aren't the best products, that they're maybe the best sold products.
57:10
But look, I'm trying to get great at sales. So why would I not look at the best sold products? It's like a no brainer to me? This was a good one, I think. Yeah. I think it's a good one. This is definitely sort of, like,
57:20
unusual
57:20
slash shoe, potentially gray hat trust and untrust, untrustworthy
57:24
businesses.
57:26
You know, I think it's I think it's gonna be entertaining. So, yeah. Can we wrap up with what what let me wrap up. First of all,
57:32
Guntory Rikers amazing. I would love to see your notes on that if you can share them.
57:37
The also,
57:38
I wanna wrap up with the one thing that you On Twitter, you said you wouldn't call me to invest in your company because I'm risk adverse.
57:45
You you said this, and I want to explain myself. Because that was a dig at me. I don't think you meant to be rude, but I took it as you being rude. And I think that
57:56
A lot of of our friends call me this as well. You guys are so wrong. I just don't take dumber. So here's here's my philosophy.
58:04
Listen, here's my philosophy.
58:06
I so from age twenty, I said, by thirty, I'm gonna make enough money that I never have to worry about money ever again. They're not and so that's when I started my company. Many would say that was incredibly risky.
58:17
I would say,
58:18
compared to the average show, it was, but it wasn't that risky. The reality. It wasn't that risky.
58:24
Then I got the money and I invest in safe stuff.
58:28
But here's the thing, when I find shit that I love I go all in on it. I just what you and a lot of our friends do is they go they go to them. They spread their shit like while. I try to go all in on a couple of things. So I think I don't think I'm risky. A risk adverse. I think that I just pick and choose them different. Yeah. That's true. Like, okay. Let's say, let's say I was starting a company.
58:51
And I think I think I know what your answer would be, but let's see. If I was starting a company and,
58:56
Let's say I either didn't have an idea. I just said I'm gonna start a company, or I said it's gonna be in this space, but I don't know exactly what or I set an idea that you're, like, I don't even get that or that sounds kind of dumb or fuzzy to me.
59:10
Would you just invest then or would you wanna wait? Cause you know, I would let you in at any point, say, like, you could Well, what what what I would ask one question.
59:19
Are you going all in and this is gonna be your only focus? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If the answer is If the answer is yes, I would really And I wouldn't
59:26
even
59:27
ask the valuation. I would just say, okay. So that that's what I think the answer is. And that's of the so the person asked a good question. I did a a Twitter kinda like, I don't know, like, AMA,
59:36
where I was like, you know, just shoot me questions. My my wife took the kids out. To target, I got an hour. I want some immediate
59:42
rush of Twitter love. Let's just do do some q and a. And the person said, you're raising money for a company who you're who who's the first person you call. And I I said, alright. I said, like, here's my first five phone calls. And I basically
59:54
name them name them. I don't really remember what I said. So I I'll tell you. Sully Sully Ali Ali. I totally agree with that. He's an amazing operator, very good investor. Scott Belski, amazing investor. Good signal to everyone.
01:00:08
The third was,
01:00:09
Justin callback. I think I had on there.
01:00:13
Who's a I don't know him well, but he's an amazing investor.
01:00:16
And then I had, biology, I think I had on there that put ball of him. Okay. Obvious reasons. Yeah. Pretty brilliant. And
01:00:22
then I had one more person who who else is on there, and then I can't find the
01:00:25
tweet. I forget who that fifth person was as well. Let me let me call. But I I'm not offended that I didn't make that list. I'm offended that people think that I'm risk adverse. And and I had a friend text me goes, do people think you're risk adverse? And I was like, Oh, I think they do, but I think they'll Okay. The first person I had was Michael Birch, the person who backed me with my previous company. So that that'll be my first so here's my, like, In reality, you know, I'm answering these questions fast. In reality, I would actually not,
01:00:51
like, two people who would, two people who I would not actually go to first would not be Scott Bellski or Ballage Right? Because two reasons, I don't actually know them that well. They're not, like, my homies. They're, like, for, you know, like, biology, I consider, like, yeah, we're kind of friends, but we never, like, We're not hung out. Yeah. We're cool too. Scott Bellski, same sort of thing. Like, even even even more distance, actually. And so, like, you know, respect, but, you know, I can't say this is, like, my my homie And so in reality, my first five calls would be to to, like, you, Souley, Michael Birch,
01:01:21
you know, Ramon, like, a bunch of our, like, my true friends who I'm, like, Hey, I'm doing something. Like, family. Yeah. Basically, like family. Exactly. And so that's, like, the true answer,
01:01:30
for Twitter, you know, I kind of, like, I didn't wanna put only people that people would not, like, not recognize their names, you know, so put a couple of people that they would know in there. And there's also kind of aspirational, like, who would I want to be in my company? I think Scott Bellsey is an amazing product person. So I think that's just like an amazing person to have on there. I think Paul is the And he's, like, the greatest I mean, he's one of the best angel investors. Right. So he's done well, and I think he's well connected. So I think that's useful to have. And I think,
01:01:56
biology also is, like, a different kind of signal. So super obviously, like, hyper intelligent.
01:02:01
He's lit comes from the future, so that's helpful in general. And I think that,
01:02:05
and I think that having him adds credibility. Cause if you only have your friends there. It doesn't help you get the next investor on board necessarily because they look at who else is invested. And if they don't see a name, that they recognize that they respect that they don't hasn't been, like, kind of, like, they don't see the Harvard stamp of approval on there. So you need that mix in there. So that's my justification for. But, yeah, in reality, I, of course, would call you. I know. But you said, I don't care about that. I care about Oh, then I told other people that you're risk averse.
01:02:33
I think that's crazy. I think I put the smiley face. That means it's a joke. The smiley face means it's a joke.
01:02:38
Oh my god. Do you think that I'm re and and just just I'm gonna wrap it up with Thomas Scott Bellski. Scott Bellsey, his grandpa started Kaplan. Kaplan
01:02:47
Oh, really? No way. I did not know that. Yeah. His his grandpa started Kaplan sold that for, like, eighty or a hundred million dollars. And, like, I think the eighties are nineties. So it's like, you know, that's like the equivalent of, like, three hundred dollars. Then when he was twenty for the invested fifteen thousand dollars into Pinterest when it was worth three million dollars and fifteen thousand dollars into Uber when it was worth three million dollars.
01:03:07
He did this while, he was running his company called behance, which was mostly bootstrapped until, like, six months before they sold it, they raised a a series a. But prior to that, it was boot app. And when he sold it, he owned, I think, seventy five percent of it. He sold it for, like, a hundred and fifty million dollars.
01:03:23
And then so he made probably a hundred million from the sale. Probably a hundred million on Uber and a hundred million on Pinterest or give or take fifty percent. And now he's next in line to become CEO at Adobe gangster. Which is like the fortieth
01:03:36
largest company in the world. Yeah. Total gangster.
01:03:40
And good dude. Just fun fun hang, which is, you know,
01:03:44
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Financially successful. Whenever I met with him, I met with him,
01:03:49
a while ago and, like, he's, like, really good looking. He dresses really nice. And he's like, fucking dreamy. He's like so optimistic
01:03:57
and so happy. And whenever he, like, I was just like, dude, whatever you say. Yeah. He looks like the guy from Marin five, Adam, of him. Exactly. He looks like that guy. Very good looking.
01:04:07
And he's nice as hell. He's really nice. Yeah. Okay. We should we should wrap it up, before we just totally, you know,
01:04:15
totally,
01:04:17
I I had Gay for Gay for Belkey. I was trying to think of something that would, like, be appropriate to say. My mind only went to, dirty words. So I'm I'm gay for Bellsey. I'm hardcore gay for him. I like him a lot. Alright. We're out of here.
01:04:36
I feel like I could root the world. I know I could be what I want to.
01:04:40
I put my all in it like the day he's all gonna hold. Let's travel never looking back.
00:00 01:04:47