Alright, Sean. You tweeted something that has made me incredibly envious of you. You said the joy of living an unscheduled life, and it kinda pissed me off because

I want that. And I know that you got a lot of messages. One of our friend emailed you and said something like, dude, how on earth do you have this unscheduled life? And so I actually have the same question. I wanna spend this episode actually asking you all about it. Tell me everything about this unscheduled life. I need to know how you can get so much done by having nothing on your calendar.

Well, let's do a definition. So what is what do I mean when I say the unscheduled life? The unscheduled life, all it means is this.

Today?

Or right now, even next hour, you're gonna do

a most important or interesting thing to you right now Not what you thought might be the most important thing two weeks ago when somebody put something on your calendar. Because that's how I used to live. Right? I used to wake up. And look at what's on my calendar. And it's like, wait. Wait. Wait. Why is the calendar in charge? And where did this even come from? Oh, this is a meeting I agreed to two weeks ago. Or this is a recurring one on one with this person,

but it's not necessarily

the thing that I actually think I should be investing my time and my energy into. It's not where my brain is. It's not what I have inspiration on. It's not the most important thing. So what I did was I just went to my calendar I just clicked delete delete delete delete delete I just deleted everything. And I just said, well, I'm gonna live an unscheduled life. Meaning,

if you wanna call me, like, the the text message I tweeted out yesterday, somebody was like, dude, this is awesome. I think we were having a good text chat. And he's like, this is awesome. I would love to jam on this sometime maybe next week. And I just said, I'm free. Call me right now.

Because I'm in the moment. We're inspired by this right now. We're both agreeing that this is really interesting, and we should explore if there's something here,

Well,

why would we wait a week and let that, you know, inspiration is perishable? It's like an avocado. It turns brown.

What were you doing when they start texting you? I was at that moment, I was well, I was texting them, but, but I in general, I didn't have, like, a thing I had to do. I have what I call blocks of time. So if you've ever read the Paul Grand Post maker versus manager's schedule, it's a kinda must read for anybody who wants to build shit, anybody who's a creator of any kind, whether you're a contact creator, you're you're an engineer, your product creator,

your writer, whatever you do. Makeer versus manager schedule is very important. I'm able to live the unscheduled life because I'm not a manager anymore. I am not operational anymore.

But that didn't happen by accident. I I made it so that I wouldn't be that way. And basically, if you look at a manager's schedule versus a maker's schedule, a manager's schedule's what you described. It's a Zebra calendar. Every thirty minutes, there's something that thing is usually put on there by your assistant or by an employee or a partner or somebody else's sales call that gets booked on your calendar. And you just hop from thing to thing to thing and you're constantly switching and you're constantly doing.

And for me, that was exhausting. I didn't like it. And I didn't I felt busier than ever and less productive than ever. And I had to, like, shake it up. I read that blog post and I decided to make a change And the maker's schedule basically just says, break your day into a couple of parts. So you might have a morning sprint, an afternoon sprint, or a night time sprint if you're, like, a creative night out.

And a sprint is roughly

ninety minutes to two hours. You might schedule three hours because you're gonna putts around a little bit. You don't immediately just kinda get into the thing. But in reality, you're probably only gonna be productive for about ninety minutes, and then you you take a break.

And you just work on the thing where you the thing that is the most interesting thing that's top of mind for you or the most important thing that you feel like you really wanna throw your entire creative being into. So that's what I do. And what that leaves is a bunch of free time. So when this guy was like, hey, you know, we're talking and it's like, this is interesting. I have a bunch of open space on the calendar that I can fill with whatever's the most interesting thing in the moment. It's kind of like a

a Zen way of being present. When you're doing that nine ninety minute sprint,

what part of your home are you sitting in and who's around you? I have a place. I go to my special place. For me, that's my office. I also have just like this bedroom that I can go into if I'm like, if I've been in the office, let's say, I just need to switch. I just need to switch to some kind or I'll walk. So going for a walk. So I basically have three venues I go to each has its own purpose.

This office here is like creativity. I got the whiteboard. I got the camera. I got my big monitor if I need to do something that's a presentation or visual in some way.

I have the bedroom where I have a the Eames lounge chair. So if I need if I'm doing reading, I'll go there, and I set a timer. So, like, I will timebox everything that I'm doing, and I'll say, great. This ninety minutes, and I kind of say it upfront, what I'm gonna do is x. What I'm gonna work on is x. But again, the calendar has tons of open space outside of those let's say there's two or three sprints in the day. There's a bunch of other time. That could be family time. That could be exercise time. That could be take a call with somebody time. It could be go out to lunch with somebody, it could be anything. And because you have that free time,

you're a lot you're able to actually get more stuff done even though your calendar looks less

Where are you so a lot of times people use an ideas too. I use my calendar as a to do list. So then where are you keeping your to dos or your ideas?

I don't have a list.

I have two things. I have the big thing. I call it my one big thing I'm doing today. And the question I asked myself in the morning is what's the one thing that if I the one outcome that I'm working on?

That if I just did that one thing, today would be a win. Part of my morning routine is I set that up. I I just asked that question What is one thing that if I did, I wouldn't have to do anything else for this day to still be a win? Whereas what most people do is, what are all the things I have to do today? Or what's the last email last five emails I got? Oh, I gotta do that now. And that becomes this long checklist.

And, you know, all to do's are not created. So I proactively try to figure out what's the one big thing. I set that out, and then I do that thing. And then anything else I do that day is gravy.

What do you say to someone who they're like, dude, I just, like, I have to do these things or I am not in I don't have the same job as you, Sean. Like, I can't can't do. I can't just

play around all day. I've gotta actually do important shit that people are telling me to do.

Well, I think there's two ways to look at it. So the first is Are you,

again, are you a manager, are you an operator,

or are you a creator builder producer of some kind? If you're a manager of people or your manager of projects,

then more likely your schedule is gonna tend towards that. However, I was a product manager. That was my job title.

I had

meetings I had to be in. I had one on ones. I had stand up meetings. I had all that stuff that was like. You can't just be like, Hey, guys. I'm gonna create some open space. Okay. That wasn't gonna be an acceptable thing.

But even then, I knew I wanted to move towards this. So the first thing is you decide. Do you want your life to be? And I decided I wanted my life to be this way. So what I did was I first carved out a single day. I said, great. I can have as many meetings, and I have a I can have shitty calendar four out of the five days a week.

But on Thursdays, that's my day. Thursdays, I keep clear. Thursdays are sacred, and I did it for one day. Then I was able to do Tuesdays and Thursdays.

And then I was able to say, okay. I'm so productive on the Tuesdays and Thursdays. This I I experimented. This is this is a good method for me. Now how do I get myself into a role where this could be my default work style? I think you work towards that. You've set that agenda and you and you figure out, okay, It might not be able to do something I could just go full on hundred percent today. But nine months from now, I can work towards that, and I could set it out, and I could tell my boss, and I could tell my my team, but this is how I'm gonna organize things. And I'm gonna do only I'm gonna do all my meetings only on Mondays, and I'm gonna leave the other four days of the week. Clear for me to do whatever's the highest impact thing where I can roll up my sleeves and dive in. Alright, everyone. A quick break to tell you about HubSpot and this one's easy because I'm gonna show you an example of how I'm doing this at my When I say I, I mean, not my team. I mean, I'm the one who actually made it. So I've got this company called Hampton. You could check it out join hampton dot com. It's a community for founders And one of the ways that we've grown is we've created these surveys, but we'll ask our members certain questions that a lot of people a lot of times people are afraid to ask. So things like what their net worth is, how their assets are all these, like, interesting questions, and then we'll put it in a survey, and I went and made a landing page. So you can check it out at joinhampton

dot com slash wealth. You can actually see the landing page that I made. And the hard part with this is with Hampton, we are appealing to a sort of a a higher end customer sort of like like a Louis Vuitton or a Ferrari, so I needed the landing page to look a very particular way. HubSpot has templates. That's what we use. We just changed the colors a little bit to match our brand. Very easy. They have this drag and drop version of their landing page builder, and it's super simple. I'm not technical and I'm the one who actually made it. And once it's made, I then shared it social media, and we had thousands of people see it and thousands of people who gave us their information, and I can then see over the next handful of weeks This is how much revenue came in from this wealth survey that I did. This is where the revenue came from. So it came from Twitter. It came from LinkedIn. Whatever it came from, I can actually go and look at it and I can say, oh, well, that worked. That didn't work. Do more of that. Do less of that. And if you're interested in making landing pages like this, I highly suggest it. Look, I'm actually doing it but you could check it out. Go to the link in the description of YouTube and get started. Alright. Now back to MFM. So somebody wants to, let's say, for one of your companies, you're hiring someone, or you have an important customer meeting that you have to go to. And they say, let's talk in two weeks.

Do you say no to most things, or do you do you book far out? Alright. Look, if it's my company and it's revenue,

I say, yes. Right? If I'm if I'm the guy who does that, but I don't I don't put myself in that position. I'm not the sales guy in any of these companies anymore.

Rarely rarely are there meetings where it's like, I need to be the guy who's there. It's scheduled a month out, and I say yes. But I do those. When it of course, when it when the time comes, you have to do it, you do It's just I don't default into that the way that most people do. I'll I'll tell you a little simple, like, thing. Have you ever heard the Charlie monger thing where it says show me your incentives and I'll show you your outcome? Yeah. It's good. I have another version of that. Show me your Google Calendar, and I'll show you your priorities.

Right? Because people will say all kinds of shit.

Oh, yeah. This year, I really care about getting in shape. Cool. Show me your calendar. Where are your workouts?

Where's your meal plan? Where where is it? What what are you doing? Where where's the thing? Or Oh, my goal is to really, you know, get this project off the ground. Awesome. How are you gonna do that when, like, eighty nine percent of your calendar is filled with other crap? It's like, show me your calendar, and I'll tell you what your priorities are. It's a very, very simple test. You should take you should literally take a screenshot of your Google calendar to show it to somebody and say, If all you saw was my next two weeks, what would you say is this person's priorities?

What is this person going to accomplish if this is what their schedule looks what type of outcomes will they get in their life? And so, you know, I think that's a really important thing to internalize because then you say, alright.

What's the alternative? The alternative is this.

Sam, if I said to you, what are the top three most important, like, priorities in your life? And not, like, the health of my family or, like, you know, that that not like that. I'm talking about, like, shifts or changes you're trying to make. Like, things where you're gonna need to put in new effort to get a new result. What are the top three kind of, of those shifts you're trying to make in your life this year?

Working out early in the morning as opposed during the day. So I could just get it out of the day. Get it out the way. So seven AM exercising.

The second one is trying to wrap up by six, by six o'clock, And so making sure I get everything done by six o'clock so I can be present with family. And then the third thing would be,

focusing on content because if I grow my audience I can continue growing my company.

Okay. Wonderful. Most people will not have the level of clarity you

have of the reason you have the success you have is because you have that level of clarity. If you ask most people, what are the top three priorities change, you know, shifts in your life that you're trying to make? It's not at the tip of the tongue.

And if it's not at the tip of the tongue, if it's not at the front of your mind, it's pretty unlikely you're prioritizing it and doing it and you're acting on it. You're revisiting it daily. The effort you would need to make to make a change in your life change is not so easy that it'll happen without you thinking about it. And I think it's normal to go through funks. Like, the reason we talked about this last so, missoji. And I was, like, I'm obsessed with this idea of having, like, a really hard challenge.

And the reason being is, for, like, glass, So I had a kid five months ago. And, basically,

three months leading up to the kid, and then the five months after, you I use you you go through a period, at least I did, and many people go through different periods where you're kinda sleepwalking through life,

where you're just kinda like doing

the same thing every day. You're being a little bit less purposeful. You're being a little bit more reactive. And I think that a lot of people, including myself at times, I sleep walk through life and I just do whatever. And so it's nice to have those priorities where you, like, reflect. I I like to do them quarterly because if I do them annually, then I I I found myself sleepwalking in month six.

You gotta you gotta shake yourself out of it. By default, you will go into autopilot. It's easier to be an autopilot. It's easier to not ask the hard questions of yourself of what actually matters. And what am I doing and do my priorities? This is my calendar match my priorities. What the hell are my priorities anyways? And, you know, am I am I living up to my word? Am I doing what I said I was gonna do? It's very it, like, that's the effort part. It is much easier to not do that.

So, you know, if wait. Let me but let me ask you a question.

You

alright. You're weird because

I'll text you something important, and I won't hear back for, like, two weeks. And I'll be like, Sean, I need to reply on this. We have to make a decision. It's important to you not to me.

Well,

but we have a close enough partnership that if it's important to me, a lot of times, it should be to you. And I'm like, dude, we have to just determine, like, this tax thing or,

whatever. Or, like, I have to change schedules. Let me tell me yes or no.

And then other times, we'll we'll just bring up a random topic. Like, would it be funny if we did x, y, and z? And you'll type

such long texts, and you'll do so many of them. And I'll have put my phone down for thirty minutes, and I'll go and look at it. And I'm like, Dude, like, what's that funny thing where it's like, either I'm not gonna read all this, either good for you or I'm sorry it happened. Like, it's like,

like, I'm like, is so much information, and there'll be a group chat sometimes with me, you, and a third party, like, Ben. And you guys have already, like, had this massive brainstorm and made a decision. I'm like, Oh, what's the fuck? I don't I'm not I can't read all this.

Do you have your text on and your Twitter DMs on in Slack and email on to where you're actually looking at it throughout the day?

Text, I do get notifications for, not everything else though.

So so, yeah, I I definitely keep the notifications

off for most things. It, you know, again, part of this philosophy is offense, not defense.

How do I

If something support to me, I could throw my whole weight into it, and I'm not gonna be either distracted or sidetracked by other people's priorities. One of the great, quotes is about the news. And, like, some I think Navell said this. He goes, the news's job is to make,

you know, someone else's problem, your problem. That's what they're trying to do. They're, you know, today in, you know, in Alameda, there was a shoplifting at the grocery store and you're like, oh my god. It's like, you don't live in Alameda. Aren't at the grocery store. It doesn't affect you, but the the job of the news is to sort of take this problem that's not yours and put it on your plate. And so I'm very conscious of that. I wanna give you a few

quick hitters of, like, little phrases

that have that are very helpful to me in doing this. The first is be effective, not efficient.

Most people who wanna be productive, they think about efficiency. How do we get the most done in the least amount of time? Right?

Work per unit of time. I I fall in that category.

I think that the problem is that it's easy to mistake motion with progress. And just because you do something well or fast doesn't mean you doesn't make that thing important.

And so it is far more important to just identify

what is the right thing for me to even spend my energy on?

And I might waste an hour thinking about that thing before I even put my hands on the keyboard or try to do something. Right? And so I focus on effect, whereas I think most people focus on efficiency. I focus on figuring out what is the thing that what is the lever even worth pulling? And I don't care if I'm that efficient with it. I might be inefficient. I might spend three days on that thing, but as long as I picked the right thing, it was totally worth it. And I actually had to do less things overall because I didn't worry about getting the most amount of stuff done. Stuff is not my my goal. Next thing, you said something about working out the first thing in the morning, think that's another great principle. The big thing is the first thing.

Most of us, when we make a to do list, we sort of procrastinate the big thing. And we'll use, like, small things to kinda get some momentum going before we actually, like, do the important thing. But what that means is, like, if you're honest about it, there are many days where you didn't spend enough time on the thing, or you didn't even get around to it. And so big thing first thing. It's just like a simple simple phrase. You can repeat yourself. Alright. What's the big thing? That's my first thing today.

That helps you because then you don't feel like you need to keep working more and more and more hours because you already got the big thing done. The very beginning of your day. Yeah. Dude, it's so much better to do it in the morning. You you know, it's really lame, and I don't ever wanna admit this, but I'm going to fucking Sahel Bloom in fired me to work out the money. I was just about doing it. He did you see what he posted today?

He is he's on YouTube now, and I love Tahill. He's a dear friend of mine. And I'm but I'm always gonna make fun of him because he's a pretty boy, and he kinda, like, has he has everything. He's kinda, like, done corny. He's, like, love my family, and I'm grateful. And we're like, bro, don't say that. That's yeah. But, yeah, but, yeah, don't say that thing, man. That's not cool. And he's got abs and he's cool and whatever.

You'll just be handsome and happy saw Hills. Not that's not a life hack. Yeah. You can't have it all.

However, his YouTube videos are so good, dude. He's the real deal. He gets up at four every morning and gets after it. And I watch these videos and I'm, like, I'm so soft. This is awesome. And so that's one of the reasons why I'm, I I'm driving around in the morning. Not gonna lie. His YouTube vlog did that for me too. But

the he it was actually one thing that pushed me over the edge. He tweeted something out that goes, he goes,

I don't know any losers that work out first thing in the morning.

It's so true. It's it's so good. Right? Is there any loser who just wakes up and works out at seven AM? I've never met him if there is. He said that on our podcast. It was on our pod that he said that. And, he said that. And, like, I'm sure there's some examples, but

Dude, I felt so soft when he said that because I I'm not like that. Right. So, you know, but I did that. I looked at my calendar the most important thing for this year is rewiring my habits to be the habits of a healthy person. Well, what are the habits of a healthy person? They wake up and they work out. That's a common habit. I looked at my calendar, it's like, here's my workout sandwiched in between, you know, two things at three in the afternoon when this multiple is nap time. It's like, well, that's probably not the ideal time to do this. Right? Why don't I just start waking up? I know. It sucks.

I'll give you the last thing. Last little last little tip of the unscheduled life.

What a lot of people do is they

we're all looking for love, but we settle for connection. Meaning, we all want awesome relationships with other people in our life. But we settle for thirty minute Zoom calls. And thirty minute Zoom calls become the default because it's like the,

it's like the the atomic unit that's, like, an acceptable like an acceptable ask and a it's an acceptable request to to accept is, okay, I'll do a thirty minute Zoom call. But it's, like, death by a thousand paper cuts like a death by a thousand thirty minutes zooms is like, this is how most people are living with other people. So one shift I made, I got this from my buddy, John Kugan, is the barbell strategy. He's like, I have a lot of quick text messages with people. We're just a one off text. We're not even like texting all day. It's just I'll text them one voice note or a random link. Or one, you know, you know, three word text about something that they did. And that's it. So I have a lot of text quick casual relationships. And then

I'll just go and spend the day with somebody. I'll, like, clear my calendar for all for the full day, and I'll go spend the day with them. Like, for example, today, my unscheduled life, I have this one podcast. That's the only thing I have my mor morning workout, then I have this podcast. That's the only thing I had on my calendar today, done with the workout by eight forty five, and podcast at nine AM. Now for the rest of the day, my calendar's clear. Wait, dude. You only need fifteen minutes between a workout and the this is why Ari, he's late all the time, by the way. You only need fifteen minutes. I cannot think. I need an hour of, like, a a grace period. I can't believe you do that. Do you really? What do you do for the

hour?

I just it, like, I'll sometimes I'll work out so hard. I wanna throw up. I'm, like, I do. I can't, like, I need to, like, decompress for a second. Oh, okay. I'm not that intense with it. I'm not, like, dead. I'm not, like, absolutely dead at the end of my workouts. But, fifteen minutes is more than enough to to cool down for me.

Do shower? I don't shower, but do the work between the work on the pot? No. You spell me? Like, it's okay. I'm not, like, I'm not, like, a clean free shirt. I'm cool with that. I just get so uncomfortable. I'm just uncomfortable. Let's shower after this. Anyways, the the other thing I was gonna say is The rest of my day today, I bet this guy, Luke, who was awesome. And I was like, Luke.

Pick any afternoon that's free for you.

I'd like to let's let's come like, I'm gonna drive down to where you are and let's spend half a day together. I wanna go for a walk. Let's talk. I was like, you're fascinating to me. And, I wanna make time to just go deep. Let's let's go hang and let's look. What do you like to do? You like squash? Let's play squash. I don't don't know anything about squash. You wanna go on a date. You you want a date. Not a date. I want a half day. I want a full half day with you. If I could get the full day, I'd take the full day. But I just met this guy. And so I'm like, alright. He'll I he'll do the half day. And so that's the barbell strategy. A bunch of lightweight text messages, but

then Let's spend a full day a weekend. Let me fly to you and let's hang out for the day, and then I'll fly back, like, carve out time to go deep where you have a real experience with somebody, and it

you go deeper past the surface level. It's much better than the thirty minute zoom, and it sounds like something that's like a really expensive hang. But it's truly not once you eliminate all the thirty minute zooms that come in between, you know, what what you could do in in that. So I try to do that, you know, about, one or two times a month. And we'll wrap this part up, but you're you're kinda forgetting one thing, and I think you're forgetting it because I think you are different than you're different than me,

which is you're not bothered easily

And so, for example, I get I I turned off my Twitter DMs. I I try not to get my phone number out anymore because I get overwhelmed

with inbound messages

of just, like, people who I'm acquaintance with and they wanna hang out. And I get so, like, burned out of saying no. I feel I have immense guilt.

You do something that I think you should fix, which is you agree to stuff and then forget that you agree to it. And so but but but that doesn't bother you. Really bothers me. So I just say no to everything. You're quite good at just ignore ignoring stuff, which could be a huge pain in the ass sometimes. But I actually think that it is more productive.

Look. I I agree with you. There's a there is a trade off to everything. The trade off of the unscheduled life is that that that that's not compatible with other people who live a highly scheduled life. The trade off of the unscheduled life is that you're not gonna reply to every message that somebody else sent you where they feel they are owed a response, but it was not you didn't ask for that. You didn't ask them to email you something There's a founder in my portfolio

who emailed me and was like, hey, I'm in town,

wanna get a coffee. And by the way, I I would happily a copy of this guy, like Scott, but I didn't even, like, think about it because that week crazed my sister-in-law had a baby. My father-in-law had to go to the, like, that week was, like, a little bit nuts for us, and I was basically just, like, watching the kids or at a hospital most of the week. But even if I wasn't, I still didn't feel even if I wasn't, I still didn't feel, like, just because you asked me something means I have to comply. This is not a it's not my religion. That's not the way I roll. But but the but that's a very you thing. That's a very you thing. And there's collateral damage with he got pissed. He was like, dude.

Or no, I emailed him back. I was like, sorry. I was, like, busy this week.

Sounds like you're not in San Francisco anymore. Next time you're here, we'd love to grab coffee.

He's like, not gonna lie, bit of a turn off that, you know, you know, our investor didn't wanna get coffee. And I was like,

I don't know. I mean, I I agree. That might be a turnoff for you.

But, you know, that it might be a turnoff for you. That's a fair that's a fair thing to say.

But I don't live my life that way where I have to do all the things you want me to do or anybody wants me to do. There's a lot of requests of things people want me to do. There is a trade off. There's a selfishness to it. I personally also feel that it's selfish for other people to have to to put make their priority your priority. I don't do that. I agree. I agree. I agree. But it's not

maybe it is practical, but it's a challenge. I I struggle with this where people messaged me, and I

I'll go to bed at night being like, fuck this guy texted me, and he texted me at ten so I could act like I'm sleeping, but I gotta figure out why I'm gonna reply with tomorrow. I'm gonna get out of this. Dude, it Well, the, you know, the only thing that saves you charisma.

The only thing that could save you is charisma because it's like you're a bad boyfriend. It's like, oh, he's such a jerk. But then when he's here,

When I do talk to him, he's totally present. He he he clearly has good intentions and blah blah blah. And you sort of salvage it. That's the only, like, saving grace? No, dude. COVID was awesome.

Getting and then I got married. That was awesome. Having a kid. Stuff. Yeah. Having a kid freaking awesome. Kids are like these facilities for your schedule. It's amazing. Yeah. Alright. So let me say one last thing. Here's the disclaimer. The out of touch That works for you. It wouldn't work for me, disclaimer. I already said this, but I started doing this when I was twenty five years old, and I had a job where I was the low man of the total ball. I was a product manager. It can be done in any position. It's if it's important to you. Go read the four hour work week. If you don't believe me, it's, like, four hour work week was was around this principle.

Of of owning your time and using your time the way you want and delegating and automating and being remote and being free to live your life the way that you want. The second thing is there are trade offs. They're real. Some people don't like me. Some people think I'm a flake. Some people think I don't I'm not responsive that bothers some people. Have to live with that trade off because I really appreciate the benefits that it gives me.

And the third thing, which is,

yes, it's a privilege to be able to do that.

However,

if if it's a lifestyle you want, then you should just work towards it. Right? So you should say, what type of job, what type of career, what type of financial independence would I need in order to live that life, and then you could decide for yourself if that's important or not. Absolutely. I decided for myself when I was twenty four twenty five that it was important to me. I'm now thirty five, and it's manifested itself. It's it's self actualized now. So it took a decade. It probably took eight years. It was a shift. It was a transition over time. And, like, again, like,

learning how to learning how to do anything takes some, you know, some time, but that's fine.

I think that's great. Did we I think we answered I I think you answered the shit out of that question.

Alright.

Alright. Is that it? Is that the pod? That's it. That's the pod.