00:00

Alright. We've got our buddy Saeed bulky on today. If you don't know Saeed, he is one of the few people on earth who has bootstrapped a company

Alright. We've got our buddy Saeed bulky on today. If you don't know Saeed, he is one of the few people on earth who has bootstrapped a company

00:07

to a unicorn status, a billion dollar company without ever taking outside money. The guy's a legend. He's in his thirties and he's done all this. What I liked about this episode is most people. We talked to a lot of guys who have made it, but they're kinda just like you you ask them what would you do today? And they kinda just shrug. Like, I don't know. That's what worked for me back then, but Good luck to you. And you're like, shit. Alright. I gotta figure this out myself. Said's the opposite. He didn't close the door behind him. He kinda just puts a ladder down, and he's like, Hey, here's three specific opportunities that I see. And what I liked about these opportunities is he's very specific. He says exactly what he would do. And, actually, that he's looked into doing some of these things.

to a unicorn status, a billion dollar company without ever taking outside money. The guy's a legend. He's in his thirties and he's done all this. What I liked about this episode is most people. We talked to a lot of guys who have made it, but they're kinda just like you you ask them what would you do today? And they kinda just shrug. Like, I don't know. That's what worked for me back then, but Good luck to you. And you're like, shit. Alright. I gotta figure this out myself. Said's the opposite. He didn't close the door behind him. He kinda just puts a ladder down, and he's like, Hey, here's three specific opportunities that I see. And what I liked about these opportunities is he's very specific. He says exactly what he would do. And, actually, that he's looked into doing some of these things.

00:42

The second thing is that he these are not like moonshot ideas. It's not like oh, invent the next big AI thing. These are just ideas that will just work. Like, if you do execute them well, they will work. And this is one of those episodes where I actually was, like, writing down what he was saying. I was like, oh, I should do that. Literally slacked Ben. I was like, at Ben. At Ben, call me when you're free. Call me. I gotta talk about some of these ideas. And by the way, at the end, we talk about money, and we ask a little bit about what people's numbers are. Understand when we get to that part about what your number is. I want you guys to do me a favor. If you're listening on, your, your podcast app, go to our YouTube page obviously, you have to subscribe because that's the gentleman's agreement. You subscribe when you when when we create valuable content for you, all we ask is just for a subscribe, but

The second thing is that he these are not like moonshot ideas. It's not like oh, invent the next big AI thing. These are just ideas that will just work. Like, if you do execute them well, they will work. And this is one of those episodes where I actually was, like, writing down what he was saying. I was like, oh, I should do that. Literally slacked Ben. I was like, at Ben. At Ben, call me when you're free. Call me. I gotta talk about some of these ideas. And by the way, at the end, we talk about money, and we ask a little bit about what people's numbers are. Understand when we get to that part about what your number is. I want you guys to do me a favor. If you're listening on, your, your podcast app, go to our YouTube page obviously, you have to subscribe because that's the gentleman's agreement. You subscribe when you when when we create valuable content for you, all we ask is just for a subscribe, but

01:26

tell us in the comment section what your number is. You'll understand when you get to that part. And also, you can view what other people's numbers are. So this will be like a little bit of a social experiment. Saiid,

tell us in the comment section what your number is. You'll understand when you get to that part. And also, you can view what other people's numbers are. So this will be like a little bit of a social experiment. Saiid,

01:35

I

I

01:36

don't

don't

01:38

know

know

01:39

if

if

01:41

you've

you've

01:42

seen

seen

01:44

Do you recognize this from the camp? I haven't seen Saeed since, since camp MFM.

Do you recognize this from the camp? I haven't seen Saeed since, since camp MFM.

01:48

I don't know if you see this.

I don't know if you see this.

01:50

Yep. Alkopana. So Sam, when we were at the camp,

Yep. Alkopana. So Sam, when we were at the camp,

01:54

first of all, microplastics,

first of all, microplastics,

01:56

all the rage right now. I'm in Rich Guy Circals. And so

all the rage right now. I'm in Rich Guy Circals. And so

01:59

People are like, oh, yeah. I had my gut tested.

People are like, oh, yeah. I had my gut tested.

02:02

My microplastics are, like, off the charts. And they're they're like, what? But you're so, like, you're so conscious about it. And the person was like, yeah. I know. And I I'm conscious about it, and I still have, like, a credit card in my belly of, like, plastic.

My microplastics are, like, off the charts. And they're they're like, what? But you're so, like, you're so conscious about it. And the person was like, yeah. I know. And I I'm conscious about it, and I still have, like, a credit card in my belly of, like, plastic.

02:15

And, we were like, damn, so then I noticed Joe Gabby, the the Airbnb guy,

And, we were like, damn, so then I noticed Joe Gabby, the the Airbnb guy,

02:20

and we are all drinking water bottle, like Fiji water bottles. They hit, like, a thousand Fiji, and I was like, dude, I'm living large. I'm everywhere I look, I could just grab ice cold Fiji, but Fiji comes in plastic. And I noticed he's only drinking from his own bottle that he sourced from somewhere

and we are all drinking water bottle, like Fiji water bottles. They hit, like, a thousand Fiji, and I was like, dude, I'm living large. I'm everywhere I look, I could just grab ice cold Fiji, but Fiji comes in plastic. And I noticed he's only drinking from his own bottle that he sourced from somewhere

02:35

I was like, does this man bring his own water on the trip? And he's like and he doesn't say anything. Of course, not preaching anybody, but I'm like, I noticed you're only drinking that. Like, is there something good about that? He's like, I just try to avoid, you know, plastics and, you know, everywhere.

I was like, does this man bring his own water on the trip? And he's like and he doesn't say anything. Of course, not preaching anybody, but I'm like, I noticed you're only drinking that. Like, is there something good about that? He's like, I just try to avoid, you know, plastics and, you know, everywhere.

02:48

I was like, he only drinks glass water. I only drink glass

I was like, he only drinks glass water. I only drink glass

02:52

water.

water.

02:54

Immediately immediately went home, ordered it. And so since then, I've only been drinking this.

Immediately immediately went home, ordered it. And so since then, I've only been drinking this.

02:59

And we, we have to do an intro, Sean, Yeah. So sayed was on the the podcast, like, six months ago. You were a hit. People loved you. Basically, the gist of the pod is you have this empire that you own that you've not raised money for, it mostly started as a WordPress blog called WPBeginner,

And we, we have to do an intro, Sean, Yeah. So sayed was on the the podcast, like, six months ago. You were a hit. People loved you. Basically, the gist of the pod is you have this empire that you own that you've not raised money for, it mostly started as a WordPress blog called WPBeginner,

03:17

And then you saw which WordPress plugins among other types of businesses were most popular. You bought them or invested in them. Now your empire is doing something like over a hundred million. I think you were somewhat vague, but I think you said over a hundred million in revenue, the whole thing. You own gas stations, I think. You own, tons of real estate. So you're just,

And then you saw which WordPress plugins among other types of businesses were most popular. You bought them or invested in them. Now your empire is doing something like over a hundred million. I think you were somewhat vague, but I think you said over a hundred million in revenue, the whole thing. You own gas stations, I think. You own, tons of real estate. So you're just,

03:35

you're you kinda have your hands and everything. The title last time, the catchy title, which I thought was really cool. So he's one of the few very few people on earth who is a bootstrapped billionaire, meaning

you're you kinda have your hands and everything. The title last time, the catchy title, which I thought was really cool. So he's one of the few very few people on earth who is a bootstrapped billionaire, meaning

03:44

or has built a billion dollar company, sorry, as a boot bootstrap. So not taking external money,

or has built a billion dollar company, sorry, as a boot bootstrap. So not taking external money,

03:50

and did it kind of slow and steady and in a really unique way where

and did it kind of slow and steady and in a really unique way where

03:54

you you

you you

03:56

really,

really,

03:57

grew inside this WordPress ecosystem and WordPress turned out to be really big. Andrew Wilkins had came on and called this strategy, the barnacle on the whale. So There's, you know, a whale, and it's a it's a growing whale. And if you could be the right barnacle, you can actually just kinda grow with it. And you can ride that you could surf that wave and actually build a large business yourself. And by the way, for the record, we have to protect Saiad here. He never said billionaire, I think. I think we said that. So that's us. He could he he doesn't have to deny or confirm it.

grew inside this WordPress ecosystem and WordPress turned out to be really big. Andrew Wilkins had came on and called this strategy, the barnacle on the whale. So There's, you know, a whale, and it's a it's a growing whale. And if you could be the right barnacle, you can actually just kinda grow with it. And you can ride that you could surf that wave and actually build a large business yourself. And by the way, for the record, we have to protect Saiad here. He never said billionaire, I think. I think we said that. So that's us. He could he he doesn't have to deny or confirm it.

04:24

I tend not to focus on the valuation.

I tend not to focus on the valuation.

04:27

The the goal is to keep building cool things that our users are loving,

The the goal is to keep building cool things that our users are loving,

04:33

and

and

04:33

with the team that I enjoy working with and a good time. And if you want Saeed's, like, backstory, you know, from we were talking about, like, when you were a kid, what you were doing in your teens, to how you built this empire. Like, we did that episode. So this one, we're gonna do some different, which was just We're like, hey, come back on. You're like, well, I kinda told my story already. But we said, actually, just come and just hang out with us. Like, we do a normal MFM where we're we're gonna talk about five different things. It'd be great to have you here just to talk about those whatever random things that come up, along the way. So if you want the backstory, go there. If you want the hangout, come here. So, Syed, where you made this amazing document. You have, another topic on here that I know that's just gonna get, that's gonna it's gonna make Sean just super horny because he's gonna be able to promote his own thing.

with the team that I enjoy working with and a good time. And if you want Saeed's, like, backstory, you know, from we were talking about, like, when you were a kid, what you were doing in your teens, to how you built this empire. Like, we did that episode. So this one, we're gonna do some different, which was just We're like, hey, come back on. You're like, well, I kinda told my story already. But we said, actually, just come and just hang out with us. Like, we do a normal MFM where we're we're gonna talk about five different things. It'd be great to have you here just to talk about those whatever random things that come up, along the way. So if you want the backstory, go there. If you want the hangout, come here. So, Syed, where you made this amazing document. You have, another topic on here that I know that's just gonna get, that's gonna it's gonna make Sean just super horny because he's gonna be able to promote his own thing.

05:15

What what do you have here? About this time. Up while you do this. Go ahead. I'll scratch. Yeah.

What what do you have here? About this time. Up while you do this. Go ahead. I'll scratch. Yeah.

05:21

I I see, you know, there there's a massive opportunity in in product high services,

I I see, you know, there there's a massive opportunity in in product high services,

05:26

with the offshore market.

with the offshore market.

05:28

Especially in industries where the TAM is really, really high.

Especially in industries where the TAM is really, really high.

05:32

I believe this is greatly under everybody's trying to go build this massive big idea business and spending years and years building software,

I believe this is greatly under everybody's trying to go build this massive big idea business and spending years and years building software,

05:41

which may or may not work. Or if if you're good at sales and you have some sort of audience taking this model and going to town, whereas as a matter of fact, I was evaluating a business earlier today. Just came to my table that that's doing product eye services. Alright, everyone. A quick break to tell you about HubSpot, and this one's really easy for me to talk about because I'm gonna show you a real life exam. I've got this company called Hampton. Join Hampton dot com. It's a community for founders doing between two million all the way up to like two fifty million dollars a year in revenue. And one of the ways that we've grown is we've created these cool surveys. And so we have a lot of founders who have high net worth, and we'll ask them all types of questions that people typically are embarrassed to ask, but provide a lot of value. So things like how much the founders pay themselves each month, how much money they're spending each month, what their payroll looks like if they're optimistic about the next year business, all these questions that people are afraid to ask, but, well, we ask them anyway. And they tell us in this anonymous survey. And so what we do is we created a landing page using HubSpot's landing page tool And it basically has a landing page that says, here's all the questions we asked. Give us your email if you wanna access it. And then I shared this page on Twitter, and we were able to get thousands of people who gave us their email and they want this survey. And I could see, did they come from social media? I can see, did they come from Twitter, from LinkedIn? Basically, everywhere else that they could possibly come from, I'm able to track all of that And then I'm able to see over the next handful of weeks how many of those people actually signed up and became a member of Hampton. In other words, I can see how much revenue came from this survey. Much revenue came from each traffic source, things like that. But the best part is I can see how much revenue came from it. And a lot of times it takes a ton of work to make that happen. HubSpot made that super, super easy. If you're interested in doing this, you could check it out hubspot dot com, the links in the description, and I'll also put the link to the survey that I did so you can actually see page and how it works and everything like that. I'm just gonna do that call to action then.

which may or may not work. Or if if you're good at sales and you have some sort of audience taking this model and going to town, whereas as a matter of fact, I was evaluating a business earlier today. Just came to my table that that's doing product eye services. Alright, everyone. A quick break to tell you about HubSpot, and this one's really easy for me to talk about because I'm gonna show you a real life exam. I've got this company called Hampton. Join Hampton dot com. It's a community for founders doing between two million all the way up to like two fifty million dollars a year in revenue. And one of the ways that we've grown is we've created these cool surveys. And so we have a lot of founders who have high net worth, and we'll ask them all types of questions that people typically are embarrassed to ask, but provide a lot of value. So things like how much the founders pay themselves each month, how much money they're spending each month, what their payroll looks like if they're optimistic about the next year business, all these questions that people are afraid to ask, but, well, we ask them anyway. And they tell us in this anonymous survey. And so what we do is we created a landing page using HubSpot's landing page tool And it basically has a landing page that says, here's all the questions we asked. Give us your email if you wanna access it. And then I shared this page on Twitter, and we were able to get thousands of people who gave us their email and they want this survey. And I could see, did they come from social media? I can see, did they come from Twitter, from LinkedIn? Basically, everywhere else that they could possibly come from, I'm able to track all of that And then I'm able to see over the next handful of weeks how many of those people actually signed up and became a member of Hampton. In other words, I can see how much revenue came from this survey. Much revenue came from each traffic source, things like that. But the best part is I can see how much revenue came from it. And a lot of times it takes a ton of work to make that happen. HubSpot made that super, super easy. If you're interested in doing this, you could check it out hubspot dot com, the links in the description, and I'll also put the link to the survey that I did so you can actually see page and how it works and everything like that. I'm just gonna do that call to action then.

07:26

And it's free. Check it out in the description. Alright. Now back to MFM.

And it's free. Check it out in the description. Alright. Now back to MFM.

07:31

What's an example? Yeah. Give an example. We because I don't think most people know products I service, offshore market. That's a lot of words. Sure. Sure. So we took an investment stake in a company called Seahawk Media,

What's an example? Yeah. Give an example. We because I don't think most people know products I service, offshore market. That's a lot of words. Sure. Sure. So we took an investment stake in a company called Seahawk Media,

07:40

and they offer custom WordPress Development, website maintenance. Basically, other webmaster related services at affordable price is. And we can also do it white label. So this is, like, if you're a small business and you can't afford to hire a full time developer, you can go here, you know, basically get a developer for hire kind of thing at very, very low rates because the team is based out of in India.

and they offer custom WordPress Development, website maintenance. Basically, other webmaster related services at affordable price is. And we can also do it white label. So this is, like, if you're a small business and you can't afford to hire a full time developer, you can go here, you know, basically get a developer for hire kind of thing at very, very low rates because the team is based out of in India.

08:02

And, you know, there's a white label offer there as well. So other agencies by posting companies, businesses can add, like, add on revenue

And, you know, there's a white label offer there as well. So other agencies by posting companies, businesses can add, like, add on revenue

08:10

you know, by reselling Seahawk. But other example could be take, like, very large market like bookkeeping.

you know, by reselling Seahawk. But other example could be take, like, very large market like bookkeeping.

08:15

Right? There's this company called Bench I use them. Yeah. They charge you between, like, two hundred ninety nine dollars or four hundred ninety nine dollars and then more, right, per month to do your bookkeeping, and they're really, really slow.

Right? There's this company called Bench I use them. Yeah. They charge you between, like, two hundred ninety nine dollars or four hundred ninety nine dollars and then more, right, per month to do your bookkeeping, and they're really, really slow.

08:26

One of our portfolio companies were using it and super annoying. And we brought this thing in house.

One of our portfolio companies were using it and super annoying. And we brought this thing in house.

08:32

But I know that many accounting firms now have offices in Pakistan, Indiana, etcetera,

But I know that many accounting firms now have offices in Pakistan, Indiana, etcetera,

08:38

where they're

where they're

08:39

doing this fractional CFOing task, like, very, very basic task, like bookkeeping and basic panel,

doing this fractional CFOing task, like, very, very basic task, like bookkeeping and basic panel,

08:44

at super low cost. So someone can go in and say, hey, we will do the bookkeeping for you

at super low cost. So someone can go in and say, hey, we will do the bookkeeping for you

08:50

at this rate.

at this rate.

08:52

I know, of course, like, shepherd. Right? This is this is one of the companies you can go and

I know, of course, like, shepherd. Right? This is this is one of the companies you can go and

09:00

I think that there there's a large opportunity here where you take a market where TAM is really high, especially a services market, and then you turn it into a product high service, you, offshore the talent, And then you add, like, a reseller or a white label model. I think the, the one that I I was looking at was bookkeeping.

I think that there there's a large opportunity here where you take a market where TAM is really high, especially a services market, and then you turn it into a product high service, you, offshore the talent, And then you add, like, a reseller or a white label model. I think the, the one that I I was looking at was bookkeeping.

09:21

And I think the the TAM there's so so large. And the key is is is the reseller and white labeling model,

And I think the the TAM there's so so large. And the key is is is the reseller and white labeling model,

09:29

which is what we learn from Seahawk Media.

which is what we learn from Seahawk Media.

09:32

Let's let's talk about Seahawk, right, because you have a tactical example here. So Seahawk is basically your outsourced WordPress development agency. And how much does it cost? Roughly. Let's say it costs, like, a thousand dollar bill of website. I'm just making this up.

Let's let's talk about Seahawk, right, because you have a tactical example here. So Seahawk is basically your outsourced WordPress development agency. And how much does it cost? Roughly. Let's say it costs, like, a thousand dollar bill of website. I'm just making this up.

09:46

And you you're a web hosting company and a bunch of your clients are coming to you and saying, hey, I want you to maintain my website, and you're like, well, we just do hosting. I don't wanna build a services department. So they will go to Seahawk, partner with Seahawk and say, hey, can you manage these clients for me and we do a rough split?

And you you're a web hosting company and a bunch of your clients are coming to you and saying, hey, I want you to maintain my website, and you're like, well, we just do hosting. I don't wanna build a services department. So they will go to Seahawk, partner with Seahawk and say, hey, can you manage these clients for me and we do a rough split?

10:05

So now there are many web hosting companies that are effectively

So now there are many web hosting companies that are effectively

10:08

white labeling

white labeling

10:09

Seahawk Media's

Seahawk Media's

10:11

team,

team,

10:12

and offering add on services to their customers like on website design,

and offering add on services to their customers like on website design,

10:18

maintenance

maintenance

10:19

by the hour, you know, site optimization,

by the hour, you know, site optimization,

10:22

hacked site repair, all sorts of these services.

hacked site repair, all sorts of these services.

10:26

Have been prioritized

Have been prioritized

10:27

and delivered

and delivered

10:29

without you ever building your own team. So

without you ever building your own team. So

10:33

In that in that same way by the way, this is something that we're gonna do on on w two beginner. I know the team is working on and is gonna go live as we will start offering

In that in that same way by the way, this is something that we're gonna do on on w two beginner. I know the team is working on and is gonna go live as we will start offering

10:41

professional websites. Anybody who's come to w p beginner,

professional websites. Anybody who's come to w p beginner,

10:44

can get a website done and so on. But you can do the same exact thing in every space. So let's say bookkeeping.

can get a website done and so on. But you can do the same exact thing in every space. So let's say bookkeeping.

10:50

I can go to all the smaller CPA firms that don't have the economics to build on their own bookkeeping and just say, why don't you just white label

I can go to all the smaller CPA firms that don't have the economics to build on their own bookkeeping and just say, why don't you just white label

11:01

my services? And this is, like, you know, now Joe's CPA bookkeeping.

my services? And this is, like, you know, now Joe's CPA bookkeeping.

11:06

You're getting all the clients. You charge whatever markup you want.

You're getting all the clients. You charge whatever markup you want.

11:10

You're paying the ax.

You're paying the ax.

11:12

So on the back end, still works the same way. So if you're, like, for example, Shepard,

So on the back end, still works the same way. So if you're, like, for example, Shepard,

11:17

can can, like, instead of doing a traditional affiliate model, you can do this white label model where other people are are just becomes, like, your lead I have a question for both of you guys. Sean with Shepard inside, I I'm sure you you know a bit about this as well. When you guys are out so I think, Sean, you guys have people in Latin America. I think you also have people in Asia. Yeah. When you are going out and I don't know how many people you guys have, but let's just say hundreds. When you're going out and you're, like, finding these people, How hard is it to find them? How hard is it to train them? And how hard is it to keep the quality high?

can can, like, instead of doing a traditional affiliate model, you can do this white label model where other people are are just becomes, like, your lead I have a question for both of you guys. Sean with Shepard inside, I I'm sure you you know a bit about this as well. When you guys are out so I think, Sean, you guys have people in Latin America. I think you also have people in Asia. Yeah. When you are going out and I don't know how many people you guys have, but let's just say hundreds. When you're going out and you're, like, finding these people, How hard is it to find them? How hard is it to train them? And how hard is it to keep the quality high?

11:51

I mean, it's the main thing. Right? If you don't provide quality talent, or if you're not able to provide higher quality talent, then somebody could just easily search for, then you don't really have a business. So, for example, with Shepard, they have a hundred recruiters.

I mean, it's the main thing. Right? If you don't provide quality talent, or if you're not able to provide higher quality talent, then somebody could just easily search for, then you don't really have a business. So, for example, with Shepard, they have a hundred recruiters.

12:02

I remember when I was doing the investment. I was like, hey, what's this, like, giant payroll thing? I thought there's, like, nobody here. Like, what's what are these hundred people? Who are these hundred people? Where where's your office? He's, like, We have an office in the Philippines, an office in LatAm,

I remember when I was doing the investment. I was like, hey, what's this, like, giant payroll thing? I thought there's, like, nobody here. Like, what's what are these hundred people? Who are these hundred people? Where where's your office? He's, like, We have an office in the Philippines, an office in LatAm,

12:16

and what's in that office is just recruiters who are constantly searching for talent and then basically testing them, filtering them, and trying to because you're like the whole game is people wanna hire overseas. They want the cost savings.

and what's in that office is just recruiters who are constantly searching for talent and then basically testing them, filtering them, and trying to because you're like the whole game is people wanna hire overseas. They want the cost savings.

12:28

What you don't want is the average person in the Philippines. So the average developer in LatAm. You want the top one percent, the top five percent.

What you don't want is the average person in the Philippines. So the average developer in LatAm. You want the top one percent, the top five percent.

12:35

And so who's gonna do that filtering? And that's the that is the whole service of what Shepard does as it goes to find that. So to in order to do that, is it hard? I don't know if I would say it's, like, It's not like rocket science, but it did take somebody on the ground in the Philippines who started an office has a hundred recruiters there, and then they have a whole system and process how they intake talent. And so they're getting thousands of resumes and then they're trying to filter down. Okay. When somebody comes to us asking for a designer or a bookkeeper, how do we give them the best and not the average person? So you do wanna have that. So that's the, like, that what Syed's saying is you've already built that hard infrastructure.

And so who's gonna do that filtering? And that's the that is the whole service of what Shepard does as it goes to find that. So to in order to do that, is it hard? I don't know if I would say it's, like, It's not like rocket science, but it did take somebody on the ground in the Philippines who started an office has a hundred recruiters there, and then they have a whole system and process how they intake talent. And so they're getting thousands of resumes and then they're trying to filter down. Okay. When somebody comes to us asking for a designer or a bookkeeper, how do we give them the best and not the average person? So you do wanna have that. So that's the, like, that what Syed's saying is you've already built that hard infrastructure.

13:08

Now you could go to Joe the CPA and say, you need a bookkeeper. Well, I actually already have the good bookkeepers here.

Now you could go to Joe the CPA and say, you need a bookkeeper. Well, I actually already have the good bookkeepers here.

13:15

You already have a customer relationship. Why don't you create an add on service. It's extra revenue for you without extra work. That's really smart. Yeah.

You already have a customer relationship. Why don't you create an add on service. It's extra revenue for you without extra work. That's really smart. Yeah.

13:23

And for, you know, same

And for, you know, same

13:25

to echo Sean's point. Quality is very, very important. If you can't deliver quality, it doesn't work. But the good thing over the years that we're seeing is that talent across the world is getting better. So if if you go ten years ago and you were trying to hire,

to echo Sean's point. Quality is very, very important. If you can't deliver quality, it doesn't work. But the good thing over the years that we're seeing is that talent across the world is getting better. So if if you go ten years ago and you were trying to hire,

13:40

overseas, whether it's Philippines, India, you may not have had that same level talent, but the new generation,

overseas, whether it's Philippines, India, you may not have had that same level talent, but the new generation,

13:46

much better English

much better English

13:47

you know, more technologically

you know, more technologically

13:50

adapt and so on. So when we're hiring in COC, for example, this this is, you know, super better talent we know they can build work for Microsoft site. Or so that, you know, if you're a business owner, you're like, how do I know when I go to Upwork that this person actually knows what they're doing, if you can go make a profile on Upwork, there's not a lot of vetting being done. Here, you know that this is a vetted person who can do it, and it's in Seahawk's best interest to vet that person because if that person is working on,

adapt and so on. So when we're hiring in COC, for example, this this is, you know, super better talent we know they can build work for Microsoft site. Or so that, you know, if you're a business owner, you're like, how do I know when I go to Upwork that this person actually knows what they're doing, if you can go make a profile on Upwork, there's not a lot of vetting being done. Here, you know that this is a vetted person who can do it, and it's in Seahawk's best interest to vet that person because if that person is working on,

14:16

a client's website for some big hosting company, you're not just gonna lose that one client. You you might lose a contract. Right. Or white labeling the service for that big hosting company. And so are you decided, are you gonna start this for accounting up the productized service of accounting or, bookkeeping?

a client's website for some big hosting company, you're not just gonna lose that one client. You you might lose a contract. Right. Or white labeling the service for that big hosting company. And so are you decided, are you gonna start this for accounting up the productized service of accounting or, bookkeeping?

14:30

No. I'm not. I'm I'm not actively

No. I'm not. I'm I'm not actively

14:33

looking to start it, but I'm studying it.

looking to start it, but I'm studying it.

14:36

Right now, and I talked with one of the influencers in in the accounting space

Right now, and I talked with one of the influencers in in the accounting space

14:40

to see what if there's a JV potential. I bet that guy's just a thrill to be around.

to see what if there's a JV potential. I bet that guy's just a thrill to be around.

14:46

The county and food service. Yeah.

The county and food service. Yeah.

14:50

It's like, oh, he's got his he's got his top button on button. Do you like to party?

It's like, oh, he's got his he's got his top button on button. Do you like to party?

14:56

Like,

Like,

14:56

that guy's just a thrill.

that guy's just a thrill.

14:59

So you have another one here which is ecosystems. And this is the kind of barnacle on the whale idea that we were talking about earlier. So you were like,

So you have another one here which is ecosystems. And this is the kind of barnacle on the whale idea that we were talking about earlier. So you were like,

15:06

You here's what you wrote. You go. I'll be the first to admit. I've benefited tremendously off WordPress and the growth WordPress, and I'm grateful for that. Andrew was talked about how he, with e commerce, benefited from the growth of Shopify. He got an early start making Shopify themes, and then as Shopify grew, his themes business grew, and then they bought more Shopify apps.

You here's what you wrote. You go. I'll be the first to admit. I've benefited tremendously off WordPress and the growth WordPress, and I'm grateful for that. Andrew was talked about how he, with e commerce, benefited from the growth of Shopify. He got an early start making Shopify themes, and then as Shopify grew, his themes business grew, and then they bought more Shopify apps.

15:24

And you said there's gotta be more of these, basically. That that this there's there's not just those two. There are more. So what are some other ecosystems that you see that you think are exciting?

And you said there's gotta be more of these, basically. That that this there's there's not just those two. There are more. So what are some other ecosystems that you see that you think are exciting?

15:34

The one that I'm excited about is, QuickBooks and the zero apps. So these accounting

The one that I'm excited about is, QuickBooks and the zero apps. So these accounting

15:41

platforms are very, very sticky.

platforms are very, very sticky.

15:43

I missed a deal here. It was a really, really good business.

I missed a deal here. It was a really, really good business.

15:48

It would take, like, three million dollars in revenue extremely profitable.

It would take, like, three million dollars in revenue extremely profitable.

15:53

And I I believe there's a lot of value in someone acquiring multiple one

And I I believe there's a lot of value in someone acquiring multiple one

15:58

of these,

of these,

15:59

QuickBooks apps or zero apps or maybe a QuickBooks app so then you port it over zero

QuickBooks apps or zero apps or maybe a QuickBooks app so then you port it over zero

16:04

and and so on, and then and then you cross sell. So it doesn't matter if the user switched from QuickBooks to zero or or vice versa, you're still keeping that customer.

and and so on, and then and then you cross sell. So it doesn't matter if the user switched from QuickBooks to zero or or vice versa, you're still keeping that customer.

16:14

You can even multiply

You can even multiply

16:15

that effect by

that effect by

16:18

going and tying multiple ecosystems. So you can say,

going and tying multiple ecosystems. So you can say,

16:21

quickbooks and Shopify or if you look in WordPress and and and so on.

quickbooks and Shopify or if you look in WordPress and and and so on.

16:26

I think there there's a

I think there there's a

16:28

serious potential here, when when you're looking at these businesses.

serious potential here, when when you're looking at these businesses.

16:32

This episode,

This episode,

16:33

know this episode is good because Saeed is saying ideas, and I'm literally, like, opening up an email thread and being like, we gotta do this. Because I did this right now. And, like, it looks like I'm sitting. I'm almost, like, on my toes up, ready to, like, go sprint because I Like, he's saying things immediately, I could see the opportunity. This this is good. Sean, do you know how many use this is shocking. Do you know how many users or how many customers QuickBooks has?

know this episode is good because Saeed is saying ideas, and I'm literally, like, opening up an email thread and being like, we gotta do this. Because I did this right now. And, like, it looks like I'm sitting. I'm almost, like, on my toes up, ready to, like, go sprint because I Like, he's saying things immediately, I could see the opportunity. This this is good. Sean, do you know how many use this is shocking. Do you know how many users or how many customers QuickBooks has?

16:59

I would guess, like, two million. And I would just guess a crazy number.

I would guess, like, two million. And I would just guess a crazy number.

17:02

Sayed, do you know?

Sayed, do you know?

17:04

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

17:05

I believe thirty. I think it's thirty million people. Wow. Thirty million thirty million customers, QuickBooks halves, which is insane. What does zero have?

I believe thirty. I think it's thirty million people. Wow. Thirty million thirty million customers, QuickBooks halves, which is insane. What does zero have?

17:15

It it's it's smaller, but it's it's in the millions as well. Am I right? Is is it about thirty or is it even more? I my number could be old. I think I think you're you're you're you're you're spot on there. And what do you think's the play? Is it software plugins or is it agencies that

It it's it's smaller, but it's it's in the millions as well. Am I right? Is is it about thirty or is it even more? I my number could be old. I think I think you're you're you're you're you're spot on there. And what do you think's the play? Is it software plugins or is it agencies that

17:29

manage service? I think the the software play the one that I was looking at was play. And I I've seen, like, other software plays in this. That like, the one that I really wanted I missed is so stupid.

manage service? I think the the software play the one that I was looking at was play. And I I've seen, like, other software plays in this. That like, the one that I really wanted I missed is so stupid.

17:41

You can see the regret in your face. I've never seen you have, like, FOMO. This is amazing.

You can see the regret in your face. I've never seen you have, like, FOMO. This is amazing.

17:46

But, like, you know,

But, like, you know,

17:48

there there are other, you know,

there there are other, you know,

17:50

implementation partners,

implementation partners,

17:53

around these that have built adjacent apps

around these that have built adjacent apps

17:55

that you can go in and then use that as distribution.

that you can go in and then use that as distribution.

17:58

This is a very essential tool. Like, you're not going to not get rid of. So he's had two great loves of his life. His wife, then whatever this app is that got away.

This is a very essential tool. Like, you're not going to not get rid of. So he's had two great loves of his life. His wife, then whatever this app is that got away.

18:07

He'll never stop thinking about this app.

He'll never stop thinking about this app.

18:09

No. I I'm I'm studying the ecosystem.

No. I I'm I'm studying the ecosystem.

18:12

And I think the ecosystem

And I think the ecosystem

18:14

you can find, like, wonderful businesses that they're not gonna be venture growth. Right? They're they're not gonna have venture growth, but they're gonna be extremely profitable.

you can find, like, wonderful businesses that they're not gonna be venture growth. Right? They're they're not gonna have venture growth, but they're gonna be extremely profitable.

18:21

And you know that people are gonna keep using,

And you know that people are gonna keep using,

18:25

QuickBooks or zero because they as long as they have a business. Okay. So I'm what you're talking about is the QuickBooks. I just googled QuickBooks plugins. So you're just talking about something like that. So there's like, That's right. There's a a a variety of plug ins that you can buy. I imagine they cost money. Yes.

QuickBooks or zero because they as long as they have a business. Okay. So I'm what you're talking about is the QuickBooks. I just googled QuickBooks plugins. So you're just talking about something like that. So there's like, That's right. There's a a a variety of plug ins that you can buy. I imagine they cost money. Yes.

18:40

How much,

How much,

18:42

are are you the biggest WordPress

are are you the biggest WordPress

18:44

plugin business on WordPress?

plugin business on WordPress?

18:47

I think, collectively, when you look at it, after automatic, we would be the the biggest who okay. I and I I we promised that we're not gonna dive deep in numbers. Can you say, like, the second or third place? Like, what how big of a business would they have? Also tens of millions of dollars?

I think, collectively, when you look at it, after automatic, we would be the the biggest who okay. I and I I we promised that we're not gonna dive deep in numbers. Can you say, like, the second or third place? Like, what how big of a business would they have? Also tens of millions of dollars?

19:04

Yeah.

Yeah.

19:06

And so how big of a business do you think you could build just on the QuickBooks

And so how big of a business do you think you could build just on the QuickBooks

19:10

platform or the QuickBooks ecosystem?

platform or the QuickBooks ecosystem?

19:13

I think if you look at the app store, because, you know, just like Shopify has an app store, QuickBooks have an app store,

I think if you look at the app store, because, you know, just like Shopify has an app store, QuickBooks have an app store,

19:20

And if you take couple of apps that might be doing three million, four million, two million dollars in in that range and you exit by five and you buy five of those two million, doing two million, you just built a ten million dollar ARR business that may not be cross selling enough so you can unlock,

And if you take couple of apps that might be doing three million, four million, two million dollars in in that range and you exit by five and you buy five of those two million, doing two million, you just built a ten million dollar ARR business that may not be cross selling enough so you can unlock,

19:36

more value. They might be mismanaged gems.

more value. They might be mismanaged gems.

19:39

By the way, if someone wants to do it, reach out to me. I would like to invest in it.

By the way, if someone wants to do it, reach out to me. I would like to invest in it.

19:44

I was studying there. Then if you ever be if you're listening and you have a quick exam

I was studying there. Then if you ever be if you're listening and you have a quick exam

19:49

Yeah.

Yeah.

19:51

Yeah. You're gonna be like a mafia. Like, where's my cut pitch? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You're gonna be like a mafia. Like, where's my cut pitch? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

19:55

There's no direct access here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What, what,

There's no direct access here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What, what,

19:59

So, like, when you do, I imagine that there's a so there's software like Jungle Scout, I think, for or there's a bunch for Amazon where you could see which services or product are selling the highest. I imagine there's the same for Shopify.

So, like, when you do, I imagine that there's a so there's software like Jungle Scout, I think, for or there's a bunch for Amazon where you could see which services or product are selling the highest. I imagine there's the same for Shopify.

20:11

When you're studying QuickBooks, I can imagine that that software exists. What does studying mean?

When you're studying QuickBooks, I can imagine that that software exists. What does studying mean?

20:16

Think you're you're looking at the number of reviews that the specific app has, you know, all all the signals that they might be featuring something that's in the popular

Think you're you're looking at the number of reviews that the specific app has, you know, all all the signals that they might be featuring something that's in the popular

20:26

looking at what's in the new, you can Google or search in in the quickbooks, like, a category,

looking at what's in the new, you can Google or search in in the quickbooks, like, a category,

20:32

you know, the tags they're using and see how many

you know, the tags they're using and see how many

20:35

solutions show up in that and then gauge by, okay, if only

solutions show up in that and then gauge by, okay, if only

20:41

three or four percent of users are gonna leave a review, that's probably how many users that they actually have. So if somebody has, like, hundred reviews, that that's only four percent of their user base. Potentially.

three or four percent of users are gonna leave a review, that's probably how many users that they actually have. So if somebody has, like, hundred reviews, that that's only four percent of their user base. Potentially.

20:51

So you can you can sort of make a hypothesis there and say, okay, this category or this keyword,

So you can you can sort of make a hypothesis there and say, okay, this category or this keyword,

20:57

maybe it's received management or whatever. It may be

maybe it's received management or whatever. It may be

21:01

has

has

21:02

twenty apps, and that's that's how big the market size is

twenty apps, and that's that's how big the market size is

21:05

for a receipt app in QuickBooks. You're gonna you're you're basically a billionaire building these, like,

for a receipt app in QuickBooks. You're gonna you're you're basically a billionaire building these, like,

21:12

the plugins, basically. And I think that that's I mean, that's that's awesome. Like, that's just so funny because the people listening to this, you guys should actually go to the YouTube because you're smiling as if it's like too good to be true. You're like, No one's talking about this. I can't believe why is no one talking about this. Like, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting from your facial expressions.

the plugins, basically. And I think that that's I mean, that's that's awesome. Like, that's just so funny because the people listening to this, you guys should actually go to the YouTube because you're smiling as if it's like too good to be true. You're like, No one's talking about this. I can't believe why is no one talking about this. Like, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting from your facial expressions.

21:30

I enjoy the game of business, and I enjoy finding finding these opportunities

I enjoy the game of business, and I enjoy finding finding these opportunities

21:35

that allows,

that allows,

21:37

us to compound.

us to compound.

21:38

And

And

21:39

and that's what's exciting.

and that's what's exciting.

21:41

Dude, anytime I hear a a billionaire talking about where he's pounding compounding, I'm like, talk dirty to me, baby. Yeah. Like, is it, like, you're

Dude, anytime I hear a a billionaire talking about where he's pounding compounding, I'm like, talk dirty to me, baby. Yeah. Like, is it, like, you're

21:48

I I I should you keep saying billionaire, which

I I I should you keep saying billionaire, which

21:52

which is not Under wait.

which is not Under wait.

21:54

I'm completely making that up. I wanna, I wanna respect that. I'm I was being a hyperbolic there. It's a state of mind, baby. It's a state of mind. It's not a Yeah. It's a state of mind. So,

I'm completely making that up. I wanna, I wanna respect that. I'm I was being a hyperbolic there. It's a state of mind, baby. It's a state of mind. It's not a Yeah. It's a state of mind. So,

22:03

yeah, let's do open source because I was reading today, y Combinator put out a, like, requests for startups. They, like, kinda update this once a year. And one of the things and one of the top requests that they had was more for profit open source companies, And they were like, we funded GitLab and they they named, like, five. They're we fund we funded a hundred and fifty of these, and we wanna do more. Like, we like this model. This is a good model. And I was reading it. And I was like, I think I, like, I know what it is, but I don't know why it's in why it's, like, particularly interesting or why it's unique and special. And so tell us about the open source stuff. What what is intriguing to you about open source? I believe that open source is one of the most powerful idea of the regeneration.

yeah, let's do open source because I was reading today, y Combinator put out a, like, requests for startups. They, like, kinda update this once a year. And one of the things and one of the top requests that they had was more for profit open source companies, And they were like, we funded GitLab and they they named, like, five. They're we fund we funded a hundred and fifty of these, and we wanna do more. Like, we like this model. This is a good model. And I was reading it. And I was like, I think I, like, I know what it is, but I don't know why it's in why it's, like, particularly interesting or why it's unique and special. And so tell us about the open source stuff. What what is intriguing to you about open source? I believe that open source is one of the most powerful idea of the regeneration.

22:44

Because

Because

22:45

it gives you many freedoms.

it gives you many freedoms.

22:47

So anyone from anywhere in the world can look at the code and learn from it. Imagine, like, you know, having some of the best programmers in the world writing code, and then you, some new kid, in India or Pakistan or US, wherever you

So anyone from anywhere in the world can look at the code and learn from it. Imagine, like, you know, having some of the best programmers in the world writing code, and then you, some new kid, in India or Pakistan or US, wherever you

23:02

are, be able to read that code. And then when you see something that maybe there's an idea that you have, you wanna contribute back to it. You can just write a patch and commit that patch. And then the project maintainers can say, okay, this is great.

are, be able to read that code. And then when you see something that maybe there's an idea that you have, you wanna contribute back to it. You can just write a patch and commit that patch. And then the project maintainers can say, okay, this is great.

23:17

They can adapt your code and all of a sudden your code is now being used on millions of websites. Can you explain? Because this is a kind of counterintuitive

They can adapt your code and all of a sudden your code is now being used on millions of websites. Can you explain? Because this is a kind of counterintuitive

23:25

idea. Right? Like, normal business would be It's our product. We hire people. They build the product. We would never want others to see our secret sauce, our code, or be able to use it or fork it, which means just basically remakes it for themselves.

idea. Right? Like, normal business would be It's our product. We hire people. They build the product. We would never want others to see our secret sauce, our code, or be able to use it or fork it, which means just basically remakes it for themselves.

23:38

And so, like, I I do I don't know. Is there anything interesting about the origins of this? Like, when it came out, was this a controversial idea? Cause it to me, it's pretty

And so, like, I I do I don't know. Is there anything interesting about the origins of this? Like, when it came out, was this a controversial idea? Cause it to me, it's pretty

23:46

and tie the way you would normally build a business. Can you paint that picture kind of from first principles? And and why would anyone wanna contribute?

and tie the way you would normally build a business. Can you paint that picture kind of from first principles? And and why would anyone wanna contribute?

23:52

So so, well, one, it's it's very, very controversial in the beginning. Right? It was copy left. You have copy right, and this is copy left. Like, hey, everything we're building is for the good of society for progressing technology

So so, well, one, it's it's very, very controversial in the beginning. Right? It was copy left. You have copy right, and this is copy left. Like, hey, everything we're building is for the good of society for progressing technology

24:05

for innovation.

for innovation.

24:06

So there's a lot of people that get behind that vision, the freedoms that it offers,

So there's a lot of people that get behind that vision, the freedoms that it offers,

24:12

in in countries, like, a lot of people can't afford some of the more expensive enterprises offer. Maybe they're in in Pakistan, maybe they're in Africa somewhere where where they don't have the resources to have those kind of tools to build their business. And now you have this open source platform. Let's say WordPress. It gives you the freedom to publish anywhere. Maybe there's censorship happening on, on any other social media platform or publishing platform, and you can self host your own WordPress site and, you know, put your take out there. So that vision

in in countries, like, a lot of people can't afford some of the more expensive enterprises offer. Maybe they're in in Pakistan, maybe they're in Africa somewhere where where they don't have the resources to have those kind of tools to build their business. And now you have this open source platform. Let's say WordPress. It gives you the freedom to publish anywhere. Maybe there's censorship happening on, on any other social media platform or publishing platform, and you can self host your own WordPress site and, you know, put your take out there. So that vision

24:43

you know, becomes

you know, becomes

24:45

really, really important. I think when you look at long term, anybody can write code, you can hire developers anywhere. So

really, really important. I think when you look at long term, anybody can write code, you can hire developers anywhere. So

24:52

Most markets will get competitive and your vision becomes a USB.

Most markets will get competitive and your vision becomes a USB.

24:57

Okay? And and that's what Open Source brings to to the table. And it it's going to disrupt basically every established market that exists. And,

Okay? And and that's what Open Source brings to to the table. And it it's going to disrupt basically every established market that exists. And,

25:06

there are startups

there are startups

25:08

that are coming out.

that are coming out.

25:10

I was I was looking at this guy. I talked to this guy named Joseph. He runs OSS Capital,

I was I was looking at this guy. I talked to this guy named Joseph. He runs OSS Capital,

25:15

and he's deep into the open source communities, looking at, you know, various GitHub projects,

and he's deep into the open source communities, looking at, you know, various GitHub projects,

25:20

and he he has a pretty cool method. Right? He sorts them by the number of stars. That means how many developers are really liking that code.

and he he has a pretty cool method. Right? He sorts them by the number of stars. That means how many developers are really liking that code.

25:27

And then he gets behind them. So one of the things that he invested in was Appflowy,

And then he gets behind them. So one of the things that he invested in was Appflowy,

25:31

which is a notion competitor, but open source and So now I can make my own notion and use it. Maybe I can self host it, and significantly reduce costs in my business. Let's do some examples. So There's Windows, the operating system, then you had Linux, the the open source counterpart. And Linux is like a, what, like, twenty billion or something. That's like a big very big, like, kind of, enterprise. And they make their money off just the services. Right? Cause the product is free. That's kind of the whole point of open sources. You could just use a self hosted for free. But if you want the, like,

which is a notion competitor, but open source and So now I can make my own notion and use it. Maybe I can self host it, and significantly reduce costs in my business. Let's do some examples. So There's Windows, the operating system, then you had Linux, the the open source counterpart. And Linux is like a, what, like, twenty billion or something. That's like a big very big, like, kind of, enterprise. And they make their money off just the services. Right? Cause the product is free. That's kind of the whole point of open sources. You could just use a self hosted for free. But if you want the, like,

26:02

is that all that they do with Red Hat? Is is it just services that generates so much revenue?

is that all that they do with Red Hat? Is is it just services that generates so much revenue?

26:08

Services,

Services,

26:08

add ons,

add ons,

26:10

you know, pre premium versions, all that. So, like, engine X, for example, there's a free version of engine X, and then there's the pro version of engine X, which gives you a lot more features, etcetera,

you know, pre premium versions, all that. So, like, engine X, for example, there's a free version of engine X, and then there's the pro version of engine X, which gives you a lot more features, etcetera,

26:20

to save you time and can mean same thing in WordPress. The core of WordPress is free and does many, many things. And there's Then there's plugins. And many of the plugins are free, which give you a lot of cool things. But then if you want more convenience, you pay for,

to save you time and can mean same thing in WordPress. The core of WordPress is free and does many, many things. And there's Then there's plugins. And many of the plugins are free, which give you a lot of cool things. But then if you want more convenience, you pay for,

26:31

additional updates and So you have WordPress, which is the free, you know, open source publisher. I don't even know what the closed source version of of WordPress is that. Maybe it's just social media.

additional updates and So you have WordPress, which is the free, you know, open source publisher. I don't even know what the closed source version of of WordPress is that. Maybe it's just social media.

26:41

But then you have, like, Android,

But then you have, like, Android,

26:43

open source,

open source,

26:44

iOS, the, the Apple, you know, operating system, closed source. There's always this kind of, like,

iOS, the, the Apple, you know, operating system, closed source. There's always this kind of, like,

26:49

dual winner. And,

dual winner. And,

26:51

and so people have this strategy of just, like,

and so people have this strategy of just, like,

26:54

x, but open source, like Slack, but open source, notion but open source,

x, but open source, like Slack, but open source, notion but open source,

26:58

Is that generally, like, a good,

Is that generally, like, a good,

27:00

like, I like blueprints when it comes to business? Right. Some somebody told me about a blueprint. They were, like, just super human for The way superhuman just took one piece of work software. It was like, pay twenty bucks a month, but I'm gonna make it, like, really slick and, like, an incredible UX and just way better design. And, like, linear was a good example of that. Linear was basically superhuman

like, I like blueprints when it comes to business? Right. Some somebody told me about a blueprint. They were, like, just super human for The way superhuman just took one piece of work software. It was like, pay twenty bucks a month, but I'm gonna make it, like, really slick and, like, an incredible UX and just way better design. And, like, linear was a good example of that. Linear was basically superhuman

27:21

for

for

27:22

Jira for the ticketing system. And it worked. It's a very successful company. Is a blue is a successful blueprint in your mind, like, popular thing but open source? Does that work? Absolutely. I think you take something that has a large tam,

Jira for the ticketing system. And it worked. It's a very successful company. Is a blue is a successful blueprint in your mind, like, popular thing but open source? Does that work? Absolutely. I think you take something that has a large tam,

27:33

and then you make open source version out of it that is cost effective, affordable.

and then you make open source version out of it that is cost effective, affordable.

27:38

And now you grow with the community. Over long term, like, I don't think anybody could build what WordPress did as a proprietary software. But the reason why WordPress was just successful was because all the other website building platforms,

And now you grow with the community. Over long term, like, I don't think anybody could build what WordPress did as a proprietary software. But the reason why WordPress was just successful was because all the other website building platforms,

27:55

or all other hosting companies, as you say, didn't wanna have their own website builder. They started contributing to it. So

or all other hosting companies, as you say, didn't wanna have their own website builder. They started contributing to it. So

28:01

good idea instead of building their own website builder. I mean, they have one, but they when in WordPress and start contributing to WordPress.

good idea instead of building their own website builder. I mean, they have one, but they when in WordPress and start contributing to WordPress.

28:08

And and and many other hosting companies that too. So Shopify, which is essentially a hosting company, same thing with Wix at the core of it. They're hosting.

And and and many other hosting companies that too. So Shopify, which is essentially a hosting company, same thing with Wix at the core of it. They're hosting.

28:16

They have their own proprietary platforms

They have their own proprietary platforms

28:19

versus WordPress is built by been built on top of by many, many, many other hosting companies, and the sheer number of contributors are a lot. And you you see the same thing

versus WordPress is built by been built on top of by many, many, many other hosting companies, and the sheer number of contributors are a lot. And you you see the same thing

28:29

in in Chrome as well and and others. But can't you say that okay. So WordPress powers how much? Thirty five percent of the internet?

in in Chrome as well and and others. But can't you say that okay. So WordPress powers how much? Thirty five percent of the internet?

28:37

Probably a little more, like, forty percent. Okay. So forty percent. Okay. So Shopify has a today, they're worth a hundred billion dollars. Don't know what WordPress is worth. I don't know what their revenue is because they're a privately held company. But for controlling thirty or forty percent of the internet, you you should be making

Probably a little more, like, forty percent. Okay. So forty percent. Okay. So Shopify has a today, they're worth a hundred billion dollars. Don't know what WordPress is worth. I don't know what their revenue is because they're a privately held company. But for controlling thirty or forty percent of the internet, you you should be making

28:54

many tens of billions of dollars a year in revenue. Do you think that WordPress is over a billion in revenue? I would think no. So I think when you think about WordPress, Workpress is a community project. And there is a, proprietary company that the founder of WordPress, Matt Mullen, like, started called automatic. Automatic has good sized revenues. They're a private company, so I don't know what what those revenues are.

many tens of billions of dollars a year in revenue. Do you think that WordPress is over a billion in revenue? I would think no. So I think when you think about WordPress, Workpress is a community project. And there is a, proprietary company that the founder of WordPress, Matt Mullen, like, started called automatic. Automatic has good sized revenues. They're a private company, so I don't know what what those revenues are.

29:14

But I I it'd be fair to say that's not as high as as Shopify. But when you look at the collective ecosystem of WordPress and all the companies that are in it, you take

But I I it'd be fair to say that's not as high as as Shopify. But when you look at the collective ecosystem of WordPress and all the companies that are in it, you take

29:25

GoDaddy, how big is GoDaddy? You take many, many, many other hosting companies or WP engine and so on, and you put collectively together,

GoDaddy, how big is GoDaddy? You take many, many, many other hosting companies or WP engine and so on, and you put collectively together,

29:32

I would say that the market cap will be bigger. Yeah. Autom so automatic was valued

I would say that the market cap will be bigger. Yeah. Autom so automatic was valued

29:38

at three billion, and it was valued at seven billion. At some point in its private. These are I don't know if this is rumors you're confirmed, but it's, like, published in a bunch of different places. And so that's what the automatic is kind of the the

at three billion, and it was valued at seven billion. At some point in its private. These are I don't know if this is rumors you're confirmed, but it's, like, published in a bunch of different places. And so that's what the automatic is kind of the the

29:50

the company that, like, kind of would you call it? The Stewart of the open source program or the open source project. I'm not sure what you would call it. They're essentially the red hat. What red hat was for Linux automatic is that for WordPress. Right? They have the same founders. Yes. Yeah. And plus Sam, you you get all the developer street cred, Fredborough. Like, I mean, Matt Mullam, like, that guy's Right. He he's a made man. He's untouchable.

the company that, like, kind of would you call it? The Stewart of the open source program or the open source project. I'm not sure what you would call it. They're essentially the red hat. What red hat was for Linux automatic is that for WordPress. Right? They have the same founders. Yes. Yeah. And plus Sam, you you get all the developer street cred, Fredborough. Like, I mean, Matt Mullam, like, that guy's Right. He he's a made man. He's untouchable.

30:11

There's no doubt that it's awesome. I think, actually, when I think of, like, internet heroes, I think Matt Molawag is is is up there. I actually used WordPress check this out. Let me explain the difference in business models. I used WordPress for the hustle. The hustle ended up being worth tens of millions of dollars. It reaches hundreds of millions of people.

There's no doubt that it's awesome. I think, actually, when I think of, like, internet heroes, I think Matt Molawag is is is up there. I actually used WordPress check this out. Let me explain the difference in business models. I used WordPress for the hustle. The hustle ended up being worth tens of millions of dollars. It reaches hundreds of millions of people.

30:27

And we are small compared to many of the others on WordPress, you know. So I know I had a friend that had a WordPress site that was doing a hundred million monthly uniques.

And we are small compared to many of the others on WordPress, you know. So I know I had a friend that had a WordPress site that was doing a hundred million monthly uniques.

30:35

And so there's no doubt that it's the best. But check this out. I bought WordPress's software called the woocommerce.

And so there's no doubt that it's the best. But check this out. I bought WordPress's software called the woocommerce.

30:42

Wo commerce was

Wo commerce was

30:44

three hundred dollars a year. I had a business on there that was doing five million a year in recurring revenue, and I paid them three hundred dollars every single year. If this were Shopify or something else, I would have been paying them, I believe fifty thou I think is it ten percent or five percent. So I've been paying them twenty five to fifty grand a year. And I was like, this is a fucking steal. I'm stealing from these guys. And I I was like, I don't understand this business. I'm getting all of the value and they are getting virtually none.

three hundred dollars a year. I had a business on there that was doing five million a year in recurring revenue, and I paid them three hundred dollars every single year. If this were Shopify or something else, I would have been paying them, I believe fifty thou I think is it ten percent or five percent. So I've been paying them twenty five to fifty grand a year. And I was like, this is a fucking steal. I'm stealing from these guys. And I I was like, I don't understand this business. I'm getting all of the value and they are getting virtually none.

31:10

Well,

Well,

31:10

I think the value is disproportionately

I think the value is disproportionately

31:13

favored in in, in, for the consumer. And that's what you want in a bit Right? You want your users to have disproportional

favored in in, in, for the consumer. And that's what you want in a bit Right? You want your users to have disproportional

31:19

value,

value,

31:21

coming from you. And I think, like, if when you look at products. And this happens when you're studying long term,

coming from you. And I think, like, if when you look at products. And this happens when you're studying long term,

31:28

then your product can't be ten x better in a specific space.

then your product can't be ten x better in a specific space.

31:33

It it it really becomes all about

It it it really becomes all about

31:36

the brand,

the brand,

31:38

and the value that you're delivering when customers are using your product, like, actively.

and the value that you're delivering when customers are using your product, like, actively.

31:42

So having that value being so disproportional

So having that value being so disproportional

31:46

makes your business far more stickier, than your competitor who might be charging an arm and

makes your business far more stickier, than your competitor who might be charging an arm and

31:51

a have a bad idea of where you say it. So where where else have we seen this word? Oh, the customer's just getting an incredible deal.

a have a bad idea of where you say it. So where where else have we seen this word? Oh, the customer's just getting an incredible deal.

31:58

One idea that comes to mind is Costco. And Costco is basically like, hey, we'll sell you the goods at cost plus ten percent.

One idea that comes to mind is Costco. And Costco is basically like, hey, we'll sell you the goods at cost plus ten percent.

32:05

And that that's just gonna cover the kind of the carrying cost of putting these items on the shelf. So, like, if whatever that bag of rice actually costs, it's about plus ten percent, that's the that's always the price. And we're gonna negotiate the shit out of these vendors, by the way, to get the lowest possible version of that price. And we're gonna use our scale to do that. And all you gotta do is pay us a hundred and twenty dollars a year. That's like a hundred and twenty dollars. I'm saving that in one grocery trip, two grocery trips. This is a no brainer. And they built a, like, you know, huge subscription business off this. Do you think somebody could do that in the software world? Because I've I've seen a couple examples of this where I bought this,

And that that's just gonna cover the kind of the carrying cost of putting these items on the shelf. So, like, if whatever that bag of rice actually costs, it's about plus ten percent, that's the that's always the price. And we're gonna negotiate the shit out of these vendors, by the way, to get the lowest possible version of that price. And we're gonna use our scale to do that. And all you gotta do is pay us a hundred and twenty dollars a year. That's like a hundred and twenty dollars. I'm saving that in one grocery trip, two grocery trips. This is a no brainer. And they built a, like, you know, huge subscription business off this. Do you think somebody could do that in the software world? Because I've I've seen a couple examples of this where I bought this,

32:39

screenshoting tool. That's really good. It's called Cleanshot X.

screenshoting tool. That's really good. It's called Cleanshot X.

32:41

And free free shout out for those guys. They, so it's really good, like, screenshot tool.

And free free shout out for those guys. They, so it's really good, like, screenshot tool.

32:46

But one of the ways you can buy it is off some some service that, like,

But one of the ways you can buy it is off some some service that, like,

32:51

it's, like, it has all the random software tools put there on the shelf, like a like a Costco or like an Amazon for random software tools, and it's usually at a lower price than if you go by direct than on the site, And I think it's if you have a if you have a membership to the overall thing, then you can just get these tools for free. I kinda wonder if somebody could do this with the open source community and just say, Alright. Pay us

it's, like, it has all the random software tools put there on the shelf, like a like a Costco or like an Amazon for random software tools, and it's usually at a lower price than if you go by direct than on the site, And I think it's if you have a if you have a membership to the overall thing, then you can just get these tools for free. I kinda wonder if somebody could do this with the open source community and just say, Alright. Pay us

33:12

a thousand dollars a year. And then you're gonna get, you know,

a thousand dollars a year. And then you're gonna get, you know,

33:16

woocommerce. You're gonna do all these things at the lowest possible price. So you're just gonna go go round up all of the software and say, hey, you're gonna be selling at cost plus ten percent, and we're gonna have this,

woocommerce. You're gonna do all these things at the lowest possible price. So you're just gonna go go round up all of the software and say, hey, you're gonna be selling at cost plus ten percent, and we're gonna have this,

33:28

you know, the subscription revenue to for our members who we wanna shop there. Is that a how bad? How bad? On a scale of one to terrible, what where is that idea? Two sided marketplaces are generally a tough business to to build. So look how nice There are challenges in the there are challenges in in in the model. But, but, you know, you could you can try it. And I think there there are companies doing it. I think if you focus it on as maybe a sub subset, let's say,

you know, the subscription revenue to for our members who we wanna shop there. Is that a how bad? How bad? On a scale of one to terrible, what where is that idea? Two sided marketplaces are generally a tough business to to build. So look how nice There are challenges in the there are challenges in in in the model. But, but, you know, you could you can try it. And I think there there are companies doing it. I think if you focus it on as maybe a sub subset, let's say,

33:53

agencies.

agencies.

33:54

And you say, hey, development agencies, we can get you access to these offers,

And you say, hey, development agencies, we can get you access to these offers,

33:59

at a lower price, probably

at a lower price, probably

34:01

that's where I would start. And then you try to make it broader versus saying, we have every software under the sun,

that's where I would start. And then you try to make it broader versus saying, we have every software under the sun,

34:07

because you have to do some back end integration, the SDKs, a lot of indie offers don't have the ability

because you have to do some back end integration, the SDKs, a lot of indie offers don't have the ability

34:12

to have reseller models and, versus, like, hey, here's here's my thing. Take the payment, give me money in the back end. That's generally not how software provisioning works, but that there's,

to have reseller models and, versus, like, hey, here's here's my thing. Take the payment, give me money in the back end. That's generally not how software provisioning works, but that there's,

34:22

a little bit more nuance there than what Costco has. So what is this OSS capital doing? They basically you said they go through GitHub projects, and they look at, like, which things have, like, some combination of engaged users,

a little bit more nuance there than what Costco has. So what is this OSS capital doing? They basically you said they go through GitHub projects, and they look at, like, which things have, like, some combination of engaged users,

34:32

large TAM, and what do they do? They invest in them? Are they at they build products for them? They're they're investing in them.

large TAM, and what do they do? They invest in them? Are they at they build products for them? They're they're investing in them.

34:39

And

And

34:40

I think you're investing in the open source community. He's like, what? They just give him hugs and shit. What which money is this whole business? We've been going on.

I think you're investing in the open source community. He's like, what? They just give him hugs and shit. What which money is this whole business? We've been going on.

34:47

They didn't mess with five high fives.

They didn't mess with five high fives.

34:49

No. I no. Actually, they're they're they're investing,

No. I no. Actually, they're they're they're investing,

34:53

capital in in those businesses and helping them come into market. Like, I mean, if you look at GitLab, for example, it's like

capital in in those businesses and helping them come into market. Like, I mean, if you look at GitLab, for example, it's like

34:59

eleven billion dollar market cap right now. So,

eleven billion dollar market cap right now. So,

35:02

like, Afloy

like, Afloy

35:04

going after the Notion market,

going after the Notion market,

35:06

or, or, like, cal dot com going after the scheduling market. I think we're going to see many of these establish,

or, or, like, cal dot com going after the scheduling market. I think we're going to see many of these establish,

35:13

company that might be unicorns right now and the project management spaces and such get disrupted by an open source solution

company that might be unicorns right now and the project management spaces and such get disrupted by an open source solution

35:20

And then what's gonna happen is, like, you and I can take Afloy and say, we're making notion for doctors. And we can take the code fork it, make it better, and then contribute back to it because the way the licensing is done. So there will be flavors of these open source softwares that that will get created. Like, there are flavors of WordPress that are created,

And then what's gonna happen is, like, you and I can take Afloy and say, we're making notion for doctors. And we can take the code fork it, make it better, and then contribute back to it because the way the licensing is done. So there will be flavors of these open source softwares that that will get created. Like, there are flavors of WordPress that are created,

35:39

and that's

and that's

35:41

what makes it so disruptive.

what makes it so disruptive.

35:43

Because, like, a doctor who might be using Notion will say, well, I wanna go use this tool because it's it does, like, the extra five percent that notion won't do. Well, which categories

Because, like, a doctor who might be using Notion will say, well, I wanna go use this tool because it's it does, like, the extra five percent that notion won't do. Well, which categories

35:51

and products do you think

and products do you think

35:53

you think this model would work for it where you're like, you see a particular product category, you say, if we if we did if we attacked that category with this open source blueprint or framework, I think that could be a winning combination. I think,

you think this model would work for it where you're like, you see a particular product category, you say, if we if we did if we attacked that category with this open source blueprint or framework, I think that could be a winning combination. I think,

36:06

the open source CRM that that that does a well, you know, yeah, will will be will be quite disruptive

the open source CRM that that that does a well, you know, yeah, will will be will be quite disruptive

36:12

and

and

36:12

and Perfect segue to our sponsor.

and Perfect segue to our sponsor.

36:14

Believe the ad. Maybe that

Believe the ad. Maybe that

36:17

But but I think,

But but I think,

36:18

you you you take you take any, you know, large

you you you take you take any, you know, large

36:22

TAM

TAM

36:23

market and and software, and you add open source components. Like, Sandido stability AI. They're basically open AI. But open source. They're the ones who make stable diffusion. Right? So How big are they? I mean, they're multibillion dollar. Right? But but, like, AI hype cycle, they're they're very big. Right? But but people actually use you know, stable diffusion a lot. Right? It's like a it's a big project.

market and and software, and you add open source components. Like, Sandido stability AI. They're basically open AI. But open source. They're the ones who make stable diffusion. Right? So How big are they? I mean, they're multibillion dollar. Right? But but, like, AI hype cycle, they're they're very big. Right? But but people actually use you know, stable diffusion a lot. Right? It's like a it's a big project.

36:42

We invested I think Sam, you invested with me, right, in cal dot com, which is, like, the Calum Calum Lee, but open source competitor, because Calum is, like, really expensive. And the Cal dot com guys have done a good job of of building the open source version of that. I really like this thesis. In fact, I think this OSS capital thing is really smart. Like, there's a few,

We invested I think Sam, you invested with me, right, in cal dot com, which is, like, the Calum Calum Lee, but open source competitor, because Calum is, like, really expensive. And the Cal dot com guys have done a good job of of building the open source version of that. I really like this thesis. In fact, I think this OSS capital thing is really smart. Like, there's a few,

36:59

like, strategic venture fund ideas

like, strategic venture fund ideas

37:03

that I really liked. This is one of them.

that I really liked. This is one of them.

37:06

Another one that I had heard was somebody who's just taking pro rata's.

Another one that I had heard was somebody who's just taking pro rata's.

37:09

So they're like, oh, you do all the work of finding the company.

So they're like, oh, you do all the work of finding the company.

37:13

You know, thirty percent of them are gonna die or whatever. Before they raise their next round. But the of the ones that raise their next round, you have pro rata. You could top up and keep your percentage, but most investors don't wanna do it or don't have the capital to do it. So these guys are just pro rata. And, that's pretty smart. I think there's a few, like, like, strategic venture funds. One I really wanted to do was just a flipper. So you basically

You know, thirty percent of them are gonna die or whatever. Before they raise their next round. But the of the ones that raise their next round, you have pro rata. You could top up and keep your percentage, but most investors don't wanna do it or don't have the capital to do it. So these guys are just pro rata. And, that's pretty smart. I think there's a few, like, like, strategic venture funds. One I really wanted to do was just a flipper. So you basically

37:34

you would say,

you would say,

37:35

hey, I wanna invest, but I'll be out when you raise your series a. I'm gonna do I'm really helpful in this zero to one. As soon as you get to your series a, I'm out. Because a normal venture fund is, like, seven to ten years, and you're hoping for this, like, thousand x outcome, But the seed to series a valuation lift is, like, three x, and it's usually in twelve to eighteen months. And so if you could just pick well of, like, what startups are most likely to get to a series a

hey, I wanna invest, but I'll be out when you raise your series a. I'm gonna do I'm really helpful in this zero to one. As soon as you get to your series a, I'm out. Because a normal venture fund is, like, seven to ten years, and you're hoping for this, like, thousand x outcome, But the seed to series a valuation lift is, like, three x, and it's usually in twelve to eighteen months. And so if you could just pick well of, like, what startups are most likely to get to a series a

37:59

or you're just in an environment where a lot of companies are able to raise their next round. You can flip. And for the founder, it's great because you're like, cool. I could take this capital today. It's actually non dilutive. I'm, like, they're gonna be out by the next round, and that same those same shares go to the next investor. So it's actually less dilutive than normal capital. But wouldn't you be accused of, like, a pump and dump? Well, you're not pumping you, though. Like, when somebody buys a home and and then sells it a year later, is that a pump and dump like, no. Like,

or you're just in an environment where a lot of companies are able to raise their next round. You can flip. And for the founder, it's great because you're like, cool. I could take this capital today. It's actually non dilutive. I'm, like, they're gonna be out by the next round, and that same those same shares go to the next investor. So it's actually less dilutive than normal capital. But wouldn't you be accused of, like, a pump and dump? Well, you're not pumping you, though. Like, when somebody buys a home and and then sells it a year later, is that a pump and dump like, no. Like,

38:25

Well, no. Because the well, I would argue, uh-uh, a home has,

Well, no. Because the well, I would argue, uh-uh, a home has,

38:30

like, realized value, which is So how does it varies? From a seed startup when you invest or precede startup, eighteen months later, they've now built a product. They have customers. They have some traction. They their story is so much better. Right? Like, they are a derisk startup in some way if they're able to raise. Theoretically, but not always. Usually. You're right. You're right. But but

like, realized value, which is So how does it varies? From a seed startup when you invest or precede startup, eighteen months later, they've now built a product. They have customers. They have some traction. They their story is so much better. Right? Like, they are a derisk startup in some way if they're able to raise. Theoretically, but not always. Usually. You're right. You're right. But but

38:49

the risk goes a little bit lower.

the risk goes a little bit lower.

38:51

And you you were in the re you entered the riskiest stage at at seed. So The problem is just like a faux pas. Like, startup investing is supposed to be this, like, true believers. I I was in, and I'm here for the long haul. And, like, you're gonna change the world.

And you you were in the re you entered the riskiest stage at at seed. So The problem is just like a faux pas. Like, startup investing is supposed to be this, like, true believers. I I was in, and I'm here for the long haul. And, like, you're gonna change the world.

39:07

Whereas, when you sell at the series a, you're like, oh, you might change the world, but probably not. The whole I know is you changed my bank

Whereas, when you sell at the series a, you're like, oh, you might change the world, but probably not. The whole I know is you changed my bank

39:14

account you know, by three x if I if I sold this right. And so I think that's the problem is it's so, like, it's a anti signal. Like, nobody wants to see that your first investor wants out right away.

account you know, by three x if I if I sold this right. And so I think that's the problem is it's so, like, it's a anti signal. Like, nobody wants to see that your first investor wants out right away.

39:24

It's a such a bad signal. So you would have to first build your brand of

It's a such a bad signal. So you would have to first build your brand of

39:28

this is what we do. It's not like for any company, we do doesn't mean anything about that. We do this with every company we invest in, and you'd have to frame it not as, like, a quick flip because that sounds like self serving. You'd have to phrase it as, like, non dilutive. It's like, we're the early stage guys. We're really helpful early. We don't know anything after that. And, like, we want you to not dilute yourself so much. So take our capital because we're gonna, basically, give you back those shares to sell to the next guy rather than just

this is what we do. It's not like for any company, we do doesn't mean anything about that. We do this with every company we invest in, and you'd have to frame it not as, like, a quick flip because that sounds like self serving. You'd have to phrase it as, like, non dilutive. It's like, we're the early stage guys. We're really helpful early. We don't know anything after that. And, like, we want you to not dilute yourself so much. So take our capital because we're gonna, basically, give you back those shares to sell to the next guy rather than just

39:53

losing more and more equity as you go.

losing more and more equity as you go.

39:56

Yes. Still a very, very high risk. You have to be a very good picker and say, yes. This is gonna go from c to a.

Yes. Still a very, very high risk. You have to be a very good picker and say, yes. This is gonna go from c to a.

40:03

But, like, I looked at my portfolio. So I looked at, like, a hundred companies. I don't remember the exact numbers on top of my head, but, basically, it was, like, out of a hundred angel investments that I did.

But, like, I looked at my portfolio. So I looked at, like, a hundred companies. I don't remember the exact numbers on top of my head, but, basically, it was, like, out of a hundred angel investments that I did.

40:11

Then I looked at what percentage of them raised the next round and what was the average multiple of the companies that raised the next round. You just multiply this together and it'll tell you, like, what's your

Then I looked at what percentage of them raised the next round and what was the average multiple of the companies that raised the next round. You just multiply this together and it'll tell you, like, what's your

40:19

expected value. And the the math math when I did it last time, which was basically that

expected value. And the the math math when I did it last time, which was basically that

40:24

enough companies raised the next round at enough of a multiple where

enough companies raised the next round at enough of a multiple where

40:28

you would be getting a a good return. I think it was, like, thirty percent. I was I the the math was basically that I would be making thirty percent on my money,

you would be getting a a good return. I think it was, like, thirty percent. I was I the the math was basically that I would be making thirty percent on my money,

40:35

which was fantastic and better than almost every venture fund out there.

which was fantastic and better than almost every venture fund out there.

40:39

But I didn't I didn't actually do that strategy because I thought of it later and also It's really hard to get around that perception problem.

But I didn't I didn't actually do that strategy because I thought of it later and also It's really hard to get around that perception problem.

40:48

I thought of it when one of my vaccine companies raised the series like, this company's not gonna work. I wish I could just sell right now. And, you know That's ex you're proving my point. You're you're just proving my point.

I thought of it when one of my vaccine companies raised the series like, this company's not gonna work. I wish I could just sell right now. And, you know That's ex you're proving my point. You're you're just proving my point.

41:01

At some point, there's no point. No. That it proves my point that you could you could Well, you're not pumping. You are dumping, though. Yeah. You're dumping. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

At some point, there's no point. No. That it proves my point that you could you could Well, you're not pumping. You are dumping, though. Yeah. You're dumping. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

41:10

That's what you should that's what you should call it. Your dumping scheme. Speaking of numbers, I tweeted this out this morning. I wanna I'm curious what you guys will guess. So I asked a question. I'll tell you, like, I guess I'll give you the background. So I was talking to I heard this, like, coach, like, a exec coach or whatever. And I was telling him, I was like, yeah, I'm trying to do he's like, what are your goals for the year? So I was like, yeah, I'm trying to do this, this, and this, And one of the things I said, I was like, yeah. If I sell this business, I think I'll make and I I I don't know what I said. I was like, I think I could make twenty million bucks. And I was like, and I was like, that'll be great because then

That's what you should that's what you should call it. Your dumping scheme. Speaking of numbers, I tweeted this out this morning. I wanna I'm curious what you guys will guess. So I asked a question. I'll tell you, like, I guess I'll give you the background. So I was talking to I heard this, like, coach, like, a exec coach or whatever. And I was telling him, I was like, yeah, I'm trying to do he's like, what are your goals for the year? So I was like, yeah, I'm trying to do this, this, and this, And one of the things I said, I was like, yeah. If I sell this business, I think I'll make and I I I don't know what I said. I was like, I think I could make twenty million bucks. And I was like, and I was like, that'll be great because then

41:37

Poss, I was like,

Poss, I was like,

41:39

I was like, I don't actually I have no idea what I have no idea what will change. And I was like,

I was like, I don't actually I have no idea what I have no idea what will change. And I was like,

41:44

I was like, because, no, it'll be cool because then I can, then my life will be better because I'll what will change? And I was

I was like, because, no, it'll be cool because then I can, then my life will be better because I'll what will change? And I was

41:52

like, What am I doing? What is there any benefit to incremental? And so I I started thinking about this. I was like, I do want this. However,

like, What am I doing? What is there any benefit to incremental? And so I I started thinking about this. I was like, I do want this. However,

42:00

I do think it's a little silly that I can't point to maybe an area of life that I want to improve using the money. Money's a tool. I believe that. I have no idea what I'm gonna use this tool for. I'm just going to Home Depot, trying to get a tool. And it's I I what you you did what do you need this drill for? And I'm, like, I have no idea.

I do think it's a little silly that I can't point to maybe an area of life that I want to improve using the money. Money's a tool. I believe that. I have no idea what I'm gonna use this tool for. I'm just going to Home Depot, trying to get a tool. And it's I I what you you did what do you need this drill for? And I'm, like, I have no idea.

42:17

Well, that was a little silly. So I tweeted out a question today. I said, how much money do you think you need to live your desired lifestyle? Because I think I'm very close to just living the exact desired lifestyle. I haven't really have any more like, desires of what I wanna change. So what is money good for in that sense? And so I asked people, I said zero to one million, one to ten

Well, that was a little silly. So I tweeted out a question today. I said, how much money do you think you need to live your desired lifestyle? Because I think I'm very close to just living the exact desired lifestyle. I haven't really have any more like, desires of what I wanna change. So what is money good for in that sense? And so I asked people, I said zero to one million, one to ten

42:36

million,

million,

42:37

ten to fifty

ten to fifty

42:38

or more than fifty, fifty plus. And I said, how much money do you think you need in your bank account in order to be living your desired lifestyle?

or more than fifty, fifty plus. And I said, how much money do you think you need in your bank account in order to be living your desired lifestyle?

42:45

One of the answers got forty seven or forty eight percent. Which one do you think it is said? And what's your answer? Yeah. Well, I think if if you're if you're looking at between those four choices,

One of the answers got forty seven or forty eight percent. Which one do you think it is said? And what's your answer? Yeah. Well, I think if if you're if you're looking at between those four choices,

42:55

Most people probably said ten to fifty. That's what I would have guessed.

Most people probably said ten to fifty. That's what I would have guessed.

42:59

Okay. That's what I would have said myself also. I think that's, like, the, like, kinda my my nothing is not utopia where somebody's feeding me grapes and shit like that. But, like, the what I actually want, what I actually care about, I think, is is totally achievable in that range. So do you,

Okay. That's what I would have said myself also. I think that's, like, the, like, kinda my my nothing is not utopia where somebody's feeding me grapes and shit like that. But, like, the what I actually want, what I actually care about, I think, is is totally achievable in that range. So do you,

43:15

and so Sam's question was a good one. What what would your answer be? Like, you've surpassed all these. Great. What what but what do you think act made a difference in your lifestyle where you're like, oh, I now have the money to live the lifestyle I want. I call it the threshold number. You know, I have a very simple life.

and so Sam's question was a good one. What what would your answer be? Like, you've surpassed all these. Great. What what but what do you think act made a difference in your lifestyle where you're like, oh, I now have the money to live the lifestyle I want. I call it the threshold number. You know, I have a very simple life.

43:31

I don't I don't have these crazy desires of wearing the fanciest clothes or any of those things.

I don't I don't have these crazy desires of wearing the fanciest clothes or any of those things.

43:37

For me,

For me,

43:39

the the ten million dollar number was more than enough, to have a good life. You

the the ten million dollar number was more than enough, to have a good life. You

43:46

know, I do what I do because I enjoy it. What would, you know, I wanna be productive member of society, and this is fun for me. But, you know, people might say their number is, more. Do you think anything changes, like, may maybe, like, as you go as you go up,

know, I do what I do because I enjoy it. What would, you know, I wanna be productive member of society, and this is fun for me. But, you know, people might say their number is, more. Do you think anything changes, like, may maybe, like, as you go as you go up,

44:00

what gets unlocked at those levels of the game? The only ones I could think of, I'll just give answer. So I was like, I think if you go above fifty or go above a hundred,

what gets unlocked at those levels of the game? The only ones I could think of, I'll just give answer. So I was like, I think if you go above fifty or go above a hundred,

44:09

you know, private travel is, like, you know, the big unlock where, you know, you don't have to think you just fly private everywhere, do do all that. I think that's the biggest one. And the second one is if if you really care about you being the one to give to charitable causes, I think that's the other thing that you could do is you could make large charitable donations.

you know, private travel is, like, you know, the big unlock where, you know, you don't have to think you just fly private everywhere, do do all that. I think that's the biggest one. And the second one is if if you really care about you being the one to give to charitable causes, I think that's the other thing that you could do is you could make large charitable donations.

44:25

I don't really know what else gets unlocked past that. But, you know, you might have other ideas. Am I missing anything? What gets unlocked over fifty? I I think it's it's just the level of convenience,

I don't really know what else gets unlocked past that. But, you know, you might have other ideas. Am I missing anything? What gets unlocked over fifty? I I think it's it's just the level of convenience,

44:35

that you get.

that you get.

44:37

Whether it is and

Whether it is and

44:39

whether it is through private travel, whether it is through,

whether it is through private travel, whether it is through,

44:44

private help, home,

private help, home,

44:46

and so on. And then in the level of that that you can,

and so on. And then in the level of that that you can,

44:49

you know, access

you know, access

44:51

just just get get elevated. Also, do you think there's a difference between fifty and

just just get get elevated. Also, do you think there's a difference between fifty and

44:57

five hundred? Like, is there, like, a number where you think the level of convenience is mostly quite similar? Like, Is it more convenient to have a significantly larger plane than a smaller private plane?

five hundred? Like, is there, like, a number where you think the level of convenience is mostly quite similar? Like, Is it more convenient to have a significantly larger plane than a smaller private plane?

45:08

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes the difference on how far you're trying to go.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes the difference on how far you're trying to go.

45:13

The poor rich guy in a small plane just puttering out. Couldn't make it across the Atlantic.

The poor rich guy in a small plane just puttering out. Couldn't make it across the Atlantic.

45:18

I I mean, yeah, yeah, like, you know,

I I mean, yeah, yeah, like, you know,

45:21

you can spend any amount of money that you want. If if you have money, you can spend it. Like, do you really need it? I don't know.

you can spend any amount of money that you want. If if you have money, you can spend it. Like, do you really need it? I don't know.

45:27

And that's debt based on each person. But Even if you look at Taylor Swift, right, she had to take she took a private jet, but it was not hers. Like, she contracted the service to fly from Japan or wherever she was to Super Bowl because her own jet can't fly that far. Right.

And that's debt based on each person. But Even if you look at Taylor Swift, right, she had to take she took a private jet, but it was not hers. Like, she contracted the service to fly from Japan or wherever she was to Super Bowl because her own jet can't fly that far. Right.

45:44

That doesn't mean that she she can't afford a bigger jet? No. I'm pretty sure she can.

That doesn't mean that she she can't afford a bigger jet? No. I'm pretty sure she can.

45:49

But it just doesn't make financial sense for her to maybe have a global eight thousand or something like this. What was your number, Sean? Was in the ten to fifty. I thought ten to fifty, like, that's that is past that. There's there's very few things that are as appealing or just like a big diminishing returns. This is not really just too big. My my number my perspective

But it just doesn't make financial sense for her to maybe have a global eight thousand or something like this. What was your number, Sean? Was in the ten to fifty. I thought ten to fifty, like, that's that is past that. There's there's very few things that are as appealing or just like a big diminishing returns. This is not really just too big. My my number my perspective

46:08

ten years ago would have been one to ten.

ten years ago would have been one to ten.

46:11

You know, I would have been like, oh, ten?

You know, I would have been like, oh, ten?

46:13

Past ten, what does it matter? And now past ten, you're like, that kinda matters. And maybe that same thing happens again. I'm not sure. That's why I kinda, like, I say, you guys wanna ask other people's opinions

Past ten, what does it matter? And now past ten, you're like, that kinda matters. And maybe that same thing happens again. I'm not sure. That's why I kinda, like, I say, you guys wanna ask other people's opinions

46:24

because, again, I think a doesn't get talked out talked about much,

because, again, I think a doesn't get talked out talked about much,

46:28

but clearly we're all acting on it. Everybody who's listening to podcasts,

but clearly we're all acting on it. Everybody who's listening to podcasts,

46:32

everybody on Twitter,

everybody on Twitter,

46:33

you're all playing a money game, and you're spending a huge portion of your life

you're all playing a money game, and you're spending a huge portion of your life

46:37

earning earning money. It is probably worth knowing

earning earning money. It is probably worth knowing

46:41

what's

what's

46:42

where does money really improve the quality of your life? And what are those thresholds

where does money really improve the quality of your life? And what are those thresholds

46:46

where and what are the things you can unlock? And so you could decide for yourself if it's really worth devoting this much energy and this much time to accumulating more.

where and what are the things you can unlock? And so you could decide for yourself if it's really worth devoting this much energy and this much time to accumulating more.

46:54

I think ten

I think ten

46:55

ten gives you a a a base. You've got your fortress of solitude. Ten is enough that you could tell most people to fuck off because you don't need much from anyone.

ten gives you a a a base. You've got your fortress of solitude. Ten is enough that you could tell most people to fuck off because you don't need much from anyone.

47:05

I actually still think you can lose ten if you make a handful of bad investments.

I actually still think you can lose ten if you make a handful of bad investments.

47:10

What side? Do you wanna look at me stupid? Because I You can do the hundred if you make a envelope that investment. No. No. No number. You can't lose.

What side? Do you wanna look at me stupid? Because I You can do the hundred if you make a envelope that investment. No. No. No number. You can't lose.

47:18

That's true. And I think I think a threshold is ten. I think another threshold is fifty. That that's my current thinking. What do you think happens at fifty? What's the difference? I think at fifty, you can fly private

That's true. And I think I think a threshold is ten. I think another threshold is fifty. That that's my current thinking. What do you think happens at fifty? What's the difference? I think at fifty, you can fly private

47:29

safely.

safely.

47:30

Like, would that like, it's no big deal. You can fly private most every time you want. And that and that's the only difference

Like, would that like, it's no big deal. You can fly private most every time you want. And that and that's the only difference

47:37

Well, you could have,

Well, you could have,

47:38

you know, at with ten million dollars liquid, I wouldn't buy a five million dollar house. A certain number? Your nanny speaks Spanish. And the next number, she speaks English and Spanish. And the next number, she speaks English Spanish and French. Right? That's what else changes.

you know, at with ten million dollars liquid, I wouldn't buy a five million dollar house. A certain number? Your nanny speaks Spanish. And the next number, she speaks English and Spanish. And the next number, she speaks English Spanish and French. Right? That's what else changes.

47:52

But like, Sean, where you where you live, you live in one of the most expensive, like, fifty mile radius parts of the world,

But like, Sean, where you where you live, you live in one of the most expensive, like, fifty mile radius parts of the world,

47:59

like, a a really sick house is probably six million dollars. Right? Yeah. You're not gonna buy that if you're worth ten, but you would buy that if you're worth thirty probably. Right? Challenge accept.

like, a a really sick house is probably six million dollars. Right? Yeah. You're not gonna buy that if you're worth ten, but you would buy that if you're worth thirty probably. Right? Challenge accept.

48:10

So, like, there's something I will.

So, like, there's something I will.

48:13

But, you know, no matter how big your house is, you can you would only ever be sitting in one seat at a time.

But, you know, no matter how big your house is, you can you would only ever be sitting in one seat at a time.

48:18

So it's it's it's important to have, like, perspective to not let the the let the goalpost keep moving you know, forward and then for what? Like, I mean, there there's a house here that's a hundred and seventy million dollar for sale. Like, you know, not too far away from somebody who is at the camp with us. I won't say their name, but they,

So it's it's it's important to have, like, perspective to not let the the let the goalpost keep moving you know, forward and then for what? Like, I mean, there there's a house here that's a hundred and seventy million dollar for sale. Like, you know, not too far away from somebody who is at the camp with us. I won't say their name, but they,

48:36

they have a, like, a probably, like, a fifteen, twenty million dollar home. They called me yesterday and they were talking and they were like, oh, sorry. I've been on, like, because because I called them. They were like, oh, sorry. I've been house hunting all day. How sunny? You just bought, like, your dream home last year, and you told me, like, we went crazy on this house because it's our dream home, and it's it's it's what we've been working for all these years. Why we we made all this money? And then they were like, he's like, god. He's like, yeah, but he's like, our HVAC broke. And then he's like, he's like, you know, that's fifth he's fifty grand to fix that. He's like, my The guy fits our fix our AC. He's got, like, engineering degrees. I pay pay two grand a month to our our pool guy. Our pool guys make a two grand a month. He's, like, in another four grand for landscaping.

they have a, like, a probably, like, a fifteen, twenty million dollar home. They called me yesterday and they were talking and they were like, oh, sorry. I've been on, like, because because I called them. They were like, oh, sorry. I've been house hunting all day. How sunny? You just bought, like, your dream home last year, and you told me, like, we went crazy on this house because it's our dream home, and it's it's it's what we've been working for all these years. Why we we made all this money? And then they were like, he's like, god. He's like, yeah, but he's like, our HVAC broke. And then he's like, he's like, you know, that's fifth he's fifty grand to fix that. He's like, my The guy fits our fix our AC. He's got, like, engineering degrees. I pay pay two grand a month to our our pool guy. Our pool guys make a two grand a month. He's, like, in another four grand for landscaping.

49:16

He's, like, it's just annoying. He's, like, everything that's it's all my problem. He's, like, he's, like, yeah, it's great when we entertain people. But most of the time, I'm, like, you I'm just sitting in one chair. I'm sitting in the same chair and I have whatever. Ten thousand extra square feet or twenty thousand extra square feet of, like, empty house.

He's, like, it's just annoying. He's, like, everything that's it's all my problem. He's, like, he's, like, yeah, it's great when we entertain people. But most of the time, I'm, like, you I'm just sitting in one chair. I'm sitting in the same chair and I have whatever. Ten thousand extra square feet or twenty thousand extra square feet of, like, empty house.

49:33

And so and it was just, like, such a visceral reminder of the, like, the age old wisdom of, like, first you own your things and then they own you. And it was, like, He was just explaining all the ways that his thing now owned him. And he had this, like, reaction where he's like, I gotta change this because, like, this is not my dream, actually. I thought this was my dream. Is not my dream, actually, because I don't wanna be owned by this. Where now my monthly nut is so high. I have to stress about you know, not all these things or when things break, it's such a colossal break. I feel so wasteful,

And so and it was just, like, such a visceral reminder of the, like, the age old wisdom of, like, first you own your things and then they own you. And it was, like, He was just explaining all the ways that his thing now owned him. And he had this, like, reaction where he's like, I gotta change this because, like, this is not my dream, actually. I thought this was my dream. Is not my dream, actually, because I don't wanna be owned by this. Where now my monthly nut is so high. I have to stress about you know, not all these things or when things break, it's such a colossal break. I feel so wasteful,

50:02

you know, that I'm spending this much just fixing our whatever pool or whatever it is when in reality, that money could like, I remember what that money could do for me. I used to live a whole year off that money. And now it's just, you know, going to to one little thing. How many square feet was this place?

you know, that I'm spending this much just fixing our whatever pool or whatever it is when in reality, that money could like, I remember what that money could do for me. I used to live a whole year off that money. And now it's just, you know, going to to one little thing. How many square feet was this place?

50:17

I don't know. It's probably like fifteen thousand square feet or something like that. That's fucking insane.

I don't know. It's probably like fifteen thousand square feet or something like that. That's fucking insane.

50:21

That is so insane. Is it fifteen thousand people more than ten, less than twenty, I think. Dude, that's like, you you need that's a commercial property, basically. You need, like, a property manager. That's insane.

That is so insane. Is it fifteen thousand people more than ten, less than twenty, I think. Dude, that's like, you you need that's a commercial property, basically. You need, like, a property manager. That's insane.

50:31

I think it's important. One of the things that a lot of people don't think about is the holding cost

I think it's important. One of the things that a lot of people don't think about is the holding cost

50:36

of anything that you're that you're acquiring,

of anything that you're that you're acquiring,

50:38

whether it's a property or a business and what, you know, understanding the holding cost, the real holding cost,

whether it's a property or a business and what, you know, understanding the holding cost, the real holding cost,

50:45

may help you not make start decisions.

may help you not make start decisions.

50:48

There's other there's other hidden cost too. Right? Holding cost is one. Opportunity costs is another that people usually discount. There's a great tweet that was going viral. I don't know if you saw what you say, but the guy said, he goes,

There's other there's other hidden cost too. Right? Holding cost is one. Opportunity costs is another that people usually discount. There's a great tweet that was going viral. I don't know if you saw what you say, but the guy said, he goes,

50:58

because I think making between a hundred and fifty and two hundred fifty k is the worst.

because I think making between a hundred and fifty and two hundred fifty k is the worst.

51:03

It's like, what? He's like, is this, I guess, the worst because it's too much money to just say, fuck it. I'm just gonna go do this thing I really want. So it's like too much money to walk away from, but it's not enough to ever, like, actually get escape velocity financially because you're paying, like, a huge amount of taxes, and then you probably live in a your lifestyle creeps up. And so and I and I saw like, I see this so often which is that there's some range. I don't know what the the numbers depend on where you live and what industry you're in, but something like two hundred grand to five hundred grand is, like, the it's that's the real golden handcuffs, and that's the real, like, danger zone. That doesn't sound like a danger zone. It's a hit, but it's a hidden danger usually because if you're making that much, you're probably very talented.

It's like, what? He's like, is this, I guess, the worst because it's too much money to just say, fuck it. I'm just gonna go do this thing I really want. So it's like too much money to walk away from, but it's not enough to ever, like, actually get escape velocity financially because you're paying, like, a huge amount of taxes, and then you probably live in a your lifestyle creeps up. And so and I and I saw like, I see this so often which is that there's some range. I don't know what the the numbers depend on where you live and what industry you're in, but something like two hundred grand to five hundred grand is, like, the it's that's the real golden handcuffs, and that's the real, like, danger zone. That doesn't sound like a danger zone. It's a hit, but it's a hidden danger usually because if you're making that much, you're probably very talented.

51:42

However,

However,

51:43

it is so hard to walk away from that amount of money if you once you get to that and take a risk, maybe start a business or take another job that might give you all kinds of other things, but maybe have less certainty or less annual guaranteed pay. And I could see that tweet going viral because I think it resonated with so many people. The guy had, like, no followers but the tweet had like twenty thousand likes.

it is so hard to walk away from that amount of money if you once you get to that and take a risk, maybe start a business or take another job that might give you all kinds of other things, but maybe have less certainty or less annual guaranteed pay. And I could see that tweet going viral because I think it resonated with so many people. The guy had, like, no followers but the tweet had like twenty thousand likes.

52:02

You know?

You know?

52:04

I mean, it also depends on your personality. My uncle moved to US forty years ago. He's a teacher.

I mean, it also depends on your personality. My uncle moved to US forty years ago. He's a teacher.

52:09

And, you know, teachers in America don't make a lot of money, but he's still retired a millionaire.

And, you know, teachers in America don't make a lot of money, but he's still retired a millionaire.

52:14

So I think it's all about how you invest that. And, yeah, I compounding

So I think it's all about how you invest that. And, yeah, I compounding

52:18

I think that tweet is really fucking stupid.

I think that tweet is really fucking stupid.

52:21

What do you think?

What do you think?

52:22

I think that if you make two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year, you can live a very rich life.

I think that if you make two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year, you can live a very rich life.

52:28

I think that you could have a beautiful rich life. I think you can retire by a certain age. I think I think that that is an out of touch tweet. I think that tweet is true if your goal is to make tens of millions of dollars or

I think that you could have a beautiful rich life. I think you can retire by a certain age. I think I think that that is an out of touch tweet. I think that tweet is true if your goal is to make tens of millions of dollars or

52:41

be your own boss at at a young age. I think it's I think it's true for the people it's true for. Right? Which is if you wanna be an entrepreneur

be your own boss at at a young age. I think it's I think it's true for the people it's true for. Right? Which is if you wanna be an entrepreneur

52:48

or you want to,

or you want to,

52:50

be financially free and not have to trade your time for for a salary. Right?

be financially free and not have to trade your time for for a salary. Right?

52:55

No. You can be financially free on two fifty a year. If you're sixty.

No. You can be financially free on two fifty a year. If you're sixty.

53:00

And

And

53:01

I don't know. I live in California. I'm I live in California. I'm using California as my frame of reference here. Yeah.

I don't know. I live in California. I'm I live in California. I'm using California as my frame of reference here. Yeah.

53:07

Where you live definitely changes things and what your burn is, but you definitely California. Like, a lot of places, like, stuff I don't know. Like, what's the amount of money you need, even if you're living in Like, what do you think is the real amount of money? You make two fifty a year,

Where you live definitely changes things and what your burn is, but you definitely California. Like, a lot of places, like, stuff I don't know. Like, what's the amount of money you need, even if you're living in Like, what do you think is the real amount of money? You make two fifty a year,

53:19

and then you have taxes. So you're taking home. I don't know what the math is, but, like, something like one seventy five or one eighty, something like that. And then you pay for life, and you might be stashing away a hundred k a year.

and then you have taxes. So you're taking home. I don't know what the math is, but, like, something like one seventy five or one eighty, something like that. And then you pay for life, and you might be stashing away a hundred k a year.

53:31

How many years do you have to stash away a hundred k in order to, like, be financially be be financially free. It takes a decade plus. Yeah. A decade. At least. Right? And and even it gets two fifty, that takes you usually seven to ten years to get to making that much. Right? Seven years to get to that that salary threshold too. Right? So now you're seventeen to twenty years in.

How many years do you have to stash away a hundred k in order to, like, be financially be be financially free. It takes a decade plus. Yeah. A decade. At least. Right? And and even it gets two fifty, that takes you usually seven to ten years to get to making that much. Right? Seven years to get to that that salary threshold too. Right? So now you're seventeen to twenty years in.

53:50

That's a lot. That's a long time. Side, what are you gonna say? I you don't like what Sean's saying right now. I could tell.

That's a lot. That's a long time. Side, what are you gonna say? I you don't like what Sean's saying right now. I could tell.

53:56

I think it's

I think it's

53:59

there there's certain something about the guaranteed payment, and it really depends on your personality.

there there's certain something about the guaranteed payment, and it really depends on your personality.

54:04

Like, the folks that are gonna become an entrepreneur, they don't need walk away from two fifty. A lot of times, like, I mean, when I started, I had nothing. It knows that word. Right?

Like, the folks that are gonna become an entrepreneur, they don't need walk away from two fifty. A lot of times, like, I mean, when I started, I had nothing. It knows that word. Right?

54:13

So a lot of folks start out and don't have a salary, and they they just kinda go and pursue it. If you if that's what you wanna do, you go do it. You have you have to have conviction. And I think that's that's key to the success anyways.

So a lot of folks start out and don't have a salary, and they they just kinda go and pursue it. If you if that's what you wanna do, you go do it. You have you have to have conviction. And I think that's that's key to the success anyways.

54:24

Especially as an entrepreneur, one thing. I'm not giving advice to other people for what they should do or what the average person should do. I'm saying from my perspective of what I would want in my life, which is the only thing I can really speak on is the things that I know about myself. Right. And I know that most of the people who listen to this podcast are gonna be people who are like minded. Otherwise, How did you get to episode five hundred? If you weren't into entrepreneurship or you weren't like minded in in in some way with with our ethos, And for people in our world, I think that it's a valuable message. Right? Like,

Especially as an entrepreneur, one thing. I'm not giving advice to other people for what they should do or what the average person should do. I'm saying from my perspective of what I would want in my life, which is the only thing I can really speak on is the things that I know about myself. Right. And I know that most of the people who listen to this podcast are gonna be people who are like minded. Otherwise, How did you get to episode five hundred? If you weren't into entrepreneurship or you weren't like minded in in in some way with with our ethos, And for people in our world, I think that it's a valuable message. Right? Like,

54:52

I I think there's a lot. I know I have a lot of friends personally who are in this situation. I know what they actually want out of life. I know where they where they live and lifestyle they desire. And for them, that is a very dangerous thing. Of course, to an if I'm just speaking generically, that advice totally doesn't apply. It's totally out of touch, and it's it's a total overkill. I get that. I think that's fair. I'll be I I wanted to give you an Ali wanted to give you an alley oop. It's like I shot myself in the foot, and then I put a band aid on it.

I I think there's a lot. I know I have a lot of friends personally who are in this situation. I know what they actually want out of life. I know where they where they live and lifestyle they desire. And for them, that is a very dangerous thing. Of course, to an if I'm just speaking generically, that advice totally doesn't apply. It's totally out of touch, and it's it's a total overkill. I get that. I think that's fair. I'll be I I wanted to give you an Ali wanted to give you an alley oop. It's like I shot myself in the foot, and then I put a band aid on it.

55:23

Where do we wanna go from here? Let's do a couple other ones that you have on this doc. So you have,

Where do we wanna go from here? Let's do a couple other ones that you have on this doc. So you have,

55:29

let's go to the bottom here with the the strong, strong opinions or philosophies.

let's go to the bottom here with the the strong, strong opinions or philosophies.

55:33

And so

And so

55:35

you talked about acquiring a business versus paid marketing. I think this is kinda interesting. I think most people don't really think about this. I know I was running my company, I never thought, like, hey, let me grow through acquisition. That wasn't

you talked about acquiring a business versus paid marketing. I think this is kinda interesting. I think most people don't really think about this. I know I was running my company, I never thought, like, hey, let me grow through acquisition. That wasn't

55:45

it wasn't on my radar. What's your point here? What do you what do you what do you think is the the takeaway?

it wasn't on my radar. What's your point here? What do you what do you what do you think is the the takeaway?

55:51

I think,

I think,

55:52

when when you think about growing a subscription business, there's only three ways to grow it. You get new customers. You expand existing customers. You reduce churn. And the new customer bucket, most of the people are always looking at,

when when you think about growing a subscription business, there's only three ways to grow it. You get new customers. You expand existing customers. You reduce churn. And the new customer bucket, most of the people are always looking at,

56:03

PPC, and especially at a certain scale, you might be spending a lot of money in PPC

PPC, and especially at a certain scale, you might be spending a lot of money in PPC

56:08

paper click, Faverick like, exactly, Fabricick like advertising.

paper click, Faverick like, exactly, Fabricick like advertising.

56:11

And your CAC might be high, you know, especially in a very, very competitive market.

And your CAC might be high, you know, especially in a very, very competitive market.

56:16

In that sense it makes sense to just go pay,

In that sense it makes sense to just go pay,

56:19

revenue multiplier to buy a business that has the customers that you that you're targeting anyways and then cross sell.

revenue multiplier to buy a business that has the customers that you that you're targeting anyways and then cross sell.

56:28

And

And

56:29

I would say that that's

I would say that that's

56:30

that's something that more CEOs need to think about,

that's something that more CEOs need to think about,

56:34

when they're thinking about growth. You know who knows about this.

when they're thinking about growth. You know who knows about this.

56:38

Yeah, boy. I sold the hustle to HubSpot because I actually didn't know about this They knew about it, but they made

Yeah, boy. I sold the hustle to HubSpot because I actually didn't know about this They knew about it, but they made

56:45

they made the right

they made the right

56:47

I know about it. And that I know a guy. I I know a guy.

I know about it. And that I know a guy. I I know a guy.

56:50

So I know a guy who did this, and they bought my business. That was the whole point of HubSpot. That was the whole point of this podcast. Now I don't have too much information. I haven't been part of it forever. But I think it's working. So are you talking about buying other, like, products or, like, content sites?

So I know a guy who did this, and they bought my business. That was the whole point of HubSpot. That was the whole point of this podcast. Now I don't have too much information. I haven't been part of it forever. But I think it's working. So are you talking about buying other, like, products or, like, content sites?

57:06

Anything and everything. I I was looking at this publicly traded company

Anything and everything. I I was looking at this publicly traded company

57:10

and where I was looking to potentially establish a sizeable stake. And their revenues were growing steadily

and where I was looking to potentially establish a sizeable stake. And their revenues were growing steadily

57:17

but not exponentially because they couldn't compete with the larger competitors.

but not exponentially because they couldn't compete with the larger competitors.

57:22

But the reseller side of their business was great. Hi. One of their resellers

But the reseller side of their business was great. Hi. One of their resellers

57:26

were actually making more money than this company was. What's a reseller? Like, can can you give an example that isn't related to this company?

were actually making more money than this company was. What's a reseller? Like, can can you give an example that isn't related to this company?

57:33

Sure. So, like, I could, for example, resell,

Sure. So, like, I could, for example, resell,

57:37

HubSpot or any any other, you know, hosting I can be hosting reseller.

HubSpot or any any other, you know, hosting I can be hosting reseller.

57:41

I can make my own hosting of me selling Amazon. I can be Amazon reseller and so on. And so so for this business,

I can make my own hosting of me selling Amazon. I can be Amazon reseller and so on. And so so for this business,

57:48

they basically just,

they basically just,

57:50

acquired one of their resellers and boosted their revenue. So there's, like, the same customer that they had that the re and bringing it in. I wanted to work with the management and just kind of fund the acquisition of the reseller because the margins, if if it was in house, we'd much, much better. How can a re seller make more than the main thing. If you're just reselling and then presumably giving a cut back to the the mothership, how does the reseller ever make more? No. It is a it all depends on the pricing and how you're licensing and what you're charging on on your end. Okay.

acquired one of their resellers and boosted their revenue. So there's, like, the same customer that they had that the re and bringing it in. I wanted to work with the management and just kind of fund the acquisition of the reseller because the margins, if if it was in house, we'd much, much better. How can a re seller make more than the main thing. If you're just reselling and then presumably giving a cut back to the the mothership, how does the reseller ever make more? No. It is a it all depends on the pricing and how you're licensing and what you're charging on on your end. Okay.

58:18

So, like, let's say we we both could be

So, like, let's say we we both could be

58:22

dropshipping the same thing and I could charge, like, five times premium because I know how to market better and you're charging only two x. Okay. Right? So But but that's just one example that you can you can look into your own ecosystem and start acquiring your resellers and and bring that customer in house. But also,

dropshipping the same thing and I could charge, like, five times premium because I know how to market better and you're charging only two x. Okay. Right? So But but that's just one example that you can you can look into your own ecosystem and start acquiring your resellers and and bring that customer in house. But also,

58:38

what HubSpot did with the content site makes

what HubSpot did with the content site makes

58:41

total sense.

total sense.

58:42

What,

What,

58:43

was Zendesk just recently did

was Zendesk just recently did

58:45

with clouds,

with clouds,

58:47

makes total sense,

makes total sense,

58:50

and and so on. So I think that when when you're looking

and and so on. So I think that when when you're looking

58:54

at you know,

at you know,

58:56

acquisition and and growth. Like, you know, I'm talking about acquisition from, like, new customer acquisition.

acquisition and and growth. Like, you know, I'm talking about acquisition from, like, new customer acquisition.

59:00

Think about M and A,

Think about M and A,

59:02

as a, as a viable option, especially when your PPC budget is is high. Could your WordPress empire have existed without you owning WP beginner?

as a, as a viable option, especially when your PPC budget is is high. Could your WordPress empire have existed without you owning WP beginner?

59:12

So w p beginner for the listener, by the way, it's like a blog. If you Google how to set up an email service on WordPress,

So w p beginner for the listener, by the way, it's like a blog. If you Google how to set up an email service on WordPress,

59:18

w p beginner, which Say owns, always shows up number one would your empire have existed without w t beginner?

w p beginner, which Say owns, always shows up number one would your empire have existed without w t beginner?

59:24

Well, no. The answer is no, but for many reasons, no.

Well, no. The answer is no, but for many reasons, no.

59:29

I I think you can't build solutions to solve problem that you don't fully understand.

I I think you can't build solutions to solve problem that you don't fully understand.

59:33

And for me to be able to build the best solution in the market, I had to communicate with the audience. I had to understand what their pain points,

And for me to be able to build the best solution in the market, I had to communicate with the audience. I had to understand what their pain points,

59:41

and that, I believe, was our biggest advantage. Of course, the marketing and having the audience is very important too,

and that, I believe, was our biggest advantage. Of course, the marketing and having the audience is very important too,

59:49

very, very important.

very, very important.

59:50

But,

But,

59:51

I think that understanding

I think that understanding

59:53

of the pinpoint is crucial. Like, for example,

of the pinpoint is crucial. Like, for example,

59:56

in talking to their customers and also our my various company founders and GMs,

in talking to their customers and also our my various company founders and GMs,

01:00:01

I realized that,

I realized that,

01:00:03

we were not happy with our help desk software. So we went and and acquired,

we were not happy with our help desk software. So we went and and acquired,

01:00:09

stake in Groove, right, which is a help desk offer that will

stake in Groove, right, which is a help desk offer that will

01:00:13

drastically

drastically

01:00:14

reduce cost for anybody who's using Zendesk or anybody using Helpskout.

reduce cost for anybody who's using Zendesk or anybody using Helpskout.

01:00:18

But now

But now

01:00:19

I know that, like,

I know that, like,

01:00:21

certain customers

certain customers

01:00:22

that are that are using Groove may also want our other solutions. And I know that many of our customers and agencies and so on They're all using a helps, you know, a help desk software. So I can, you know, cross promote,

that are that are using Groove may also want our other solutions. And I know that many of our customers and agencies and so on They're all using a helps, you know, a help desk software. So I can, you know, cross promote,

01:00:35

groove to them and say, hey, if you switch from,

groove to them and say, hey, if you switch from,

01:00:38

Zendesk or whatever, you'll say forty percent. If you're if you're an agency, you're using front for your communication, switch hair, and you'll say eighty percent. So that level of synergy

Zendesk or whatever, you'll say forty percent. If you're if you're an agency, you're using front for your communication, switch hair, and you'll say eighty percent. So that level of synergy

01:00:46

gets unlocked,

gets unlocked,

01:00:48

and can be quite lucrative.

and can be quite lucrative.

01:00:50

Can we finish with these two, like, life, life lesson type things? I think they're both good. I know I know we're time, but I I wanna do it anyways.

Can we finish with these two, like, life, life lesson type things? I think they're both good. I know I know we're time, but I I wanna do it anyways.

01:00:57

Compounding goodwill is the best form of compounding. What do you mean by that? I think,

Compounding goodwill is the best form of compounding. What do you mean by that? I think,

01:01:02

too many times we are very transactional in the relationships that we're in.

too many times we are very transactional in the relationships that we're in.

01:01:07

Since, you know, we're doing something nice and saying, hey, do something back in return for me.

Since, you know, we're doing something nice and saying, hey, do something back in return for me.

01:01:12

I think just giving,

I think just giving,

01:01:14

with no expectation return. A lot of us are are very smart.

with no expectation return. A lot of us are are very smart.

01:01:18

And sometimes

And sometimes

01:01:19

in that, we can be

in that, we can be

01:01:21

kinda,

kinda,

01:01:22

you know, a holy, you know, and and and not so nice. So I think intellect is a gift and kindness is a choice. And if if we choose to be kind,

you know, a holy, you know, and and and not so nice. So I think intellect is a gift and kindness is a choice. And if if we choose to be kind,

01:01:30

over

over

01:01:31

long term,

long term,

01:01:33

this

this

01:01:33

this comes back multi multi multi folds. So not letting your igor, the keyboard warrior, get to you. And and, you know, I'm sorry. The New York hundred percent wrong. Yeah. Just just move going along and trying to help out wherever you Even if you feel like you're in the right, sometimes it's better to just be kind anyways.

this comes back multi multi multi folds. So not letting your igor, the keyboard warrior, get to you. And and, you know, I'm sorry. The New York hundred percent wrong. Yeah. Just just move going along and trying to help out wherever you Even if you feel like you're in the right, sometimes it's better to just be kind anyways.

01:01:51

Yes. You know, sometimes I I get stuck on that where I'm like, this is this is right. That's what we said.

Yes. You know, sometimes I I get stuck on that where I'm like, this is this is right. That's what we said.

01:01:55

And, actually, it doesn't matter what we said. I suggest in that moment, it's it matters more to them than it does to me to just let it to just be kind and just go their way rather than than mine.

And, actually, it doesn't matter what we said. I suggest in that moment, it's it matters more to them than it does to me to just let it to just be kind and just go their way rather than than mine.

01:02:05

I've learned that lesson the hard way a couple of times. Absolutely. Absolutely. You wrote this guy's name Guy spear, I've seen this guy around, but I don't know him. Who is this guy? He he's got something special. He goes to some conference thing, right, that people really like? Who is this guy? Why is he the example of that? Yeah. So he he's a really good friend now,

I've learned that lesson the hard way a couple of times. Absolutely. Absolutely. You wrote this guy's name Guy spear, I've seen this guy around, but I don't know him. Who is this guy? He he's got something special. He goes to some conference thing, right, that people really like? Who is this guy? Why is he the example of that? Yeah. So he he's a really good friend now,

01:02:22

and we're in a forum together. So he his conference is called value x, very well known value investor

and we're in a forum together. So he his conference is called value x, very well known value investor

01:02:29

has a book as well. And, you know, he talks about compounding goodwill,

has a book as well. And, you know, he talks about compounding goodwill,

01:02:34

in his book, an intelligent investor

in his book, an intelligent investor

01:02:38

educational value investor, actually.

educational value investor, actually.

01:02:40

And I'm always really, really amazed by his level of generosity,

And I'm always really, really amazed by his level of generosity,

01:02:44

the amount of, like, Hey, you need this. Let me just connect you with x and y and z. And long term, what he's been able to do is build this amazing network of super duper talented people that, like, you know, if he rings, they'll pick up and, you know, help out whatever and nothing nothing in in returns. I think He is an amazing example. And, I learned a ton from him, even, you know, we were in Chicago a couple months ago, and he gave me an idea

the amount of, like, Hey, you need this. Let me just connect you with x and y and z. And long term, what he's been able to do is build this amazing network of super duper talented people that, like, you know, if he rings, they'll pick up and, you know, help out whatever and nothing nothing in in returns. I think He is an amazing example. And, I learned a ton from him, even, you know, we were in Chicago a couple months ago, and he gave me an idea

01:03:13

to acquire, like, the very cool deal idea,

to acquire, like, the very cool deal idea,

01:03:17

of, like, doing acquisitions,

of, like, doing acquisitions,

01:03:19

and then

and then

01:03:21

long story short, I was able to actually use it. Deal game and use the exact tactic to make a make a purchase in a very tax efficient way. So I think his ability to just, you know, do that is really good. But

long story short, I was able to actually use it. Deal game and use the exact tactic to make a make a purchase in a very tax efficient way. So I think his ability to just, you know, do that is really good. But

01:03:34

I, you know, I don't know you that well. We're we're friends, but we don't hang up too much If I had to guess,

I, you know, I don't know you that well. We're we're friends, but we don't hang up too much If I had to guess,

01:03:40

I would say that you're a very shrewd negotiator,

I would say that you're a very shrewd negotiator,

01:03:42

and I would say that you're probably

and I would say that you're probably

01:03:45

a very

a very

01:03:46

disciplined and firm manager.

disciplined and firm manager.

01:03:49

I think you're probably quite nice, but I think that, like,

I think you're probably quite nice, but I think that, like,

01:03:52

you're a very disciplined person, which sometimes people would say, well, you're just being an asshole or something like that. You know, if you have enough employees, some of them are gonna think that about you. How are you balancing

you're a very disciplined person, which sometimes people would say, well, you're just being an asshole or something like that. You know, if you have enough employees, some of them are gonna think that about you. How are you balancing

01:04:01

being a nice person

being a nice person

01:04:03

and also, like, trying to get the best of a deal or,

and also, like, trying to get the best of a deal or,

01:04:07

trying to capture,

trying to capture,

01:04:10

a little bit more value for yourself than for the other person.

a little bit more value for yourself than for the other person.

01:04:14

I think not all juice have to be squeezed if you think about value on a very long term

I think not all juice have to be squeezed if you think about value on a very long term

01:04:20

way.

way.

01:04:21

So

So

01:04:22

part of the discipline is to say, okay. Well, we don't have to squeeze all the juice today.

part of the discipline is to say, okay. Well, we don't have to squeeze all the juice today.

01:04:27

You know, we that's that's the whole point about compounding goodwill. You know, if if I acquire something from a founder,

You know, we that's that's the whole point about compounding goodwill. You know, if if I acquire something from a founder,

01:04:36

and

and

01:04:37

let go a few percentages,

let go a few percentages,

01:04:40

Because that helps me have a great long term relationship with this person,

Because that helps me have a great long term relationship with this person,

01:04:44

that's a worthwhile decision.

that's a worthwhile decision.

01:04:47

Rather than saying, you know what, you're down and I'm gonna,

Rather than saying, you know what, you're down and I'm gonna,

01:04:50

like, you know, kinda crush it. And that that that's not good for reputation long term. But you go into you go into a negotiation

like, you know, kinda crush it. And that that that's not good for reputation long term. But you go into you go into a negotiation

01:04:56

saying, here's my threshold of, I can no longer do the or I won't do it at this number, but I will do it anything below this. And then you go with, like, a number and you leave room for that negotiation

saying, here's my threshold of, I can no longer do the or I won't do it at this number, but I will do it anything below this. And then you go with, like, a number and you leave room for that negotiation

01:05:06

or for that threshold, and then you just don't ever cross that particular number. Like,

or for that threshold, and then you just don't ever cross that particular number. Like,

01:05:12

super calculating about it.

super calculating about it.

01:05:15

Like a trick. Well, because I know that I know that he's a value investor. And a value investor, they, like, At some point, they're like, you you make money on the buy. You make money when you buy something at a low price. And so, like, there has to be, like, a threshold of, like, doesn't make sense after this. And so I just can't be a nice guy anymore. The just because you're winning, it doesn't mean the other person has to lose. And I think that's a very important,

Like a trick. Well, because I know that I know that he's a value investor. And a value investor, they, like, At some point, they're like, you you make money on the buy. You make money when you buy something at a low price. And so, like, there has to be, like, a threshold of, like, doesn't make sense after this. And so I just can't be a nice guy anymore. The just because you're winning, it doesn't mean the other person has to lose. And I think that's a very important,

01:05:38

aspect of compound and good of all. You know, that that's also the example. Like, you know, just because, you know, you're very smart. You don't have to prove the other person wrong. You can you can agree to disagree or move on and just saying, okay. You know, this is fine. Maybe it's worthwhile considering this. And, you know, letting that conversation be in in in in going away But, of course, in business, you have to be very, very disciplined if, especially as a capital allocator,

aspect of compound and good of all. You know, that that's also the example. Like, you know, just because, you know, you're very smart. You don't have to prove the other person wrong. You can you can agree to disagree or move on and just saying, okay. You know, this is fine. Maybe it's worthwhile considering this. And, you know, letting that conversation be in in in in going away But, of course, in business, you have to be very, very disciplined if, especially as a capital allocator,

01:06:01

and that's

and that's

01:06:02

that that's that. Let me tell you guys a quick story as we wrap up here, that was, like, the best good guy story that I heard. I I heard it on another podcast, but, apparently, Adam Stanley. Adam Sandler was, in New York. He was taking acting class classes.

that that's that. Let me tell you guys a quick story as we wrap up here, that was, like, the best good guy story that I heard. I I heard it on another podcast, but, apparently, Adam Stanley. Adam Sandler was, in New York. He was taking acting class classes.

01:06:16

And the, the teacher was like, hey, I wanna take you out for a beer. Let's talk. So teacher takes him out, and he goes, look at him. You don't have what it takes. And I just want you to quit doing it now because I don't wish you to waste two decades. And just not gonna go your way.

And the, the teacher was like, hey, I wanna take you out for a beer. Let's talk. So teacher takes him out, and he goes, look at him. You don't have what it takes. And I just want you to quit doing it now because I don't wish you to waste two decades. And just not gonna go your way.

01:06:29

I wanna show you love and respect by telling you now.

I wanna show you love and respect by telling you now.

01:06:33

Obviously,

Obviously,

01:06:33

ten years passed, Adam Sandler's still doing this. He's an epic star.

ten years passed, Adam Sandler's still doing this. He's an epic star.

01:06:38

He's at the top of his game. He's at a bar in New York. He's with his friends. He's with his buddies. He sees that professor that teacher out. And he's and I imagine in his head, he's thinking, like, well, should I go rub it in this guy's face? And he's like, told you, I win.

He's at the top of his game. He's at a bar in New York. He's with his friends. He's with his buddies. He sees that professor that teacher out. And he's and I imagine in his head, he's thinking, like, well, should I go rub it in this guy's face? And he's like, told you, I win.

01:06:50

He walks over to the guy, and he, brings his buddies with him, and Adam looks at his buddies. He goes, hey, I wanna meet I want you guys to meet Professor, blankety blank. They were the only professor that was kind enough to take me out and buy me a beer.

He walks over to the guy, and he, brings his buddies with him, and Adam looks at his buddies. He goes, hey, I wanna meet I want you guys to meet Professor, blankety blank. They were the only professor that was kind enough to take me out and buy me a beer.

01:07:03

And I heard that story. And I was like, that is one of the best stories I've ever heard about treating people respectfully, even though you know, you may be a little bit angry or you didn't like him at the time. But Sean, did you you saw that clip? I love that story.

And I heard that story. And I was like, that is one of the best stories I've ever heard about treating people respectfully, even though you know, you may be a little bit angry or you didn't like him at the time. But Sean, did you you saw that clip? I love that story.

01:07:16

It's Brad Pitt telling the story, by the way, which just makes it even better. You did good. But Brad Pitt telling the story, which a little bit better. I think just Hey. No. I saw Andrew Santino say it. Oh, okay. Maybe there's somebody else.

It's Brad Pitt telling the story, by the way, which just makes it even better. You did good. But Brad Pitt telling the story, which a little bit better. I think just Hey. No. I saw Andrew Santino say it. Oh, okay. Maybe there's somebody else.

01:07:28

I think Sam did an excellent job. Yeah.

I think Sam did an excellent job. Yeah.

01:07:30

You're my bad fit, Sam.

You're my bad fit, Sam.

01:07:34

Both both,

Both both,

01:07:36

hot guys from Missouri. I'll take it.

hot guys from Missouri. I'll take it.

01:07:41

Yes. Syed, thank you very much. That's the pod. Thank you.

Yes. Syed, thank you very much. That's the pod. Thank you.

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