00:00

My job as a founder, it's to inject risk into the business. You can get away with certain things that other people simply can't because you own the damn place. Alright. Today's episode

My job as a founder, it's to inject risk into the business. You can get away with certain things that other people simply can't because you own the damn place. Alright. Today's episode

00:18

episode, we're gonna talk about things that interest us. One thing that I tweeted out the other day.

episode, we're gonna talk about things that interest us. One thing that I tweeted out the other day.

00:24

I wasn't surprised

I wasn't surprised

00:26

by this result.

by this result.

00:27

But it still

But it still

00:28

made me sad.

made me sad.

00:30

I tweeted out. I said, if you could guarantee a seven and a half percent real return,

I tweeted out. I said, if you could guarantee a seven and a half percent real return,

00:38

For the rest of your life, every year, guaranteed.

For the rest of your life, every year, guaranteed.

00:41

But you can't invest in any individual stocks forever.

But you can't invest in any individual stocks forever.

00:46

However, you can start your own business. And I think I even said you can but you can only invest ten thousand dollars into that business. Or

However, you can start your own business. And I think I even said you can but you can only invest ten thousand dollars into that business. Or

00:54

you can

you can

00:55

invest actively.

invest actively.

00:56

You can't really buy the index, but you can invest actively and do whatever you want. Some days, maybe, or some years, maybe you'll get plus fifty percent. Some years, you're gonna get minus fifty percent. Which would you choose option a or b? Forty percent.

You can't really buy the index, but you can invest actively and do whatever you want. Some days, maybe, or some years, maybe you'll get plus fifty percent. Some years, you're gonna get minus fifty percent. Which would you choose option a or b? Forty percent.

01:09

Of my three hundred thousand followers selected option b. And you replied, and you said option a all day easy. What why did you select that?

Of my three hundred thousand followers selected option b. And you replied, and you said option a all day easy. What why did you select that?

01:19

Well, to get seven five seven point five percent, like, with no effort and you're guaranteed.

Well, to get seven five seven point five percent, like, with no effort and you're guaranteed.

01:25

It's a no brainer. It's an absolute no brainer for me. I mean,

It's a no brainer. It's an absolute no brainer for me. I mean,

01:30

Now I've got a business. I have a lot of risk in my own business, so that might be part of it as well. Like, I don't I have all the risk there.

Now I've got a business. I have a lot of risk in my own business, so that might be part of it as well. Like, I don't I have all the risk there.

01:37

Let me ask you this. Were you intending this to be like someone who's twenty one years old,

Let me ask you this. Were you intending this to be like someone who's twenty one years old,

01:41

straight out of school, never invested before, has nothing else going on, or is it just like at any point in your life? I think at any point in your life that's still the right decision. I still turn that switch on in a second. Yeah. That's a ridiculous return.

straight out of school, never invested before, has nothing else going on, or is it just like at any point in your life? I think at any point in your life that's still the right decision. I still turn that switch on in a second. Yeah. That's a ridiculous return.

01:55

In in a good way,

In in a good way,

01:56

and a consistent return. I mean, the the way that would compound over time would be fantastic. And there's nothing boring about that. That's an incredible. I mean, boring actually, but also an incredible thing. So, yeah, what would you think that the the the survey was gonna produce? Did you were you surprised by the ratio? Or

and a consistent return. I mean, the the way that would compound over time would be fantastic. And there's nothing boring about that. That's an incredible. I mean, boring actually, but also an incredible thing. So, yeah, what would you think that the the the survey was gonna produce? Did you were you surprised by the ratio? Or

02:12

I'm surprised that

I'm surprised that

02:14

The average Joe I mean, and my followers are probably above the average Joe in terms of income, maybe IQ, maybe not. I don't know. But for their they're typically a higher end. It looks for sure. They're they're up there. They're very good looking. It's a very high like, I would imagine it's a high educated coastal

The average Joe I mean, and my followers are probably above the average Joe in terms of income, maybe IQ, maybe not. I don't know. But for their they're typically a higher end. It looks for sure. They're they're up there. They're very good looking. It's a very high like, I would imagine it's a high educated coastal

02:29

crowd

crowd

02:30

And and so, anyway, I I I would have thought that they would have seen the fallacy that they

And and so, anyway, I I I would have thought that they would have seen the fallacy that they

02:37

probably can't beat all the others particularly the other people who have a much better advantage. And so the idea that although everyone else fails at getting this return, I,

probably can't beat all the others particularly the other people who have a much better advantage. And so the idea that although everyone else fails at getting this return, I,

02:48

in my little office, in part time, with just me, can somehow beat all the others. And I, and I thought that that was shocking to me, that that they thought that they were exceptional at That's what I was surprised at.

in my little office, in part time, with just me, can somehow beat all the others. And I, and I thought that that was shocking to me, that that they thought that they were exceptional at That's what I was surprised at.

02:59

Yeah. Well, that's

Yeah. Well, that's

03:01

pretty common. I think everyone thinks they're exceptional in some way. I mean, the thing people don't take in into consideration is is is, is risk. So, like, they they might go off if I just buy Nvidia or Apple or whatever Shopify,

pretty common. I think everyone thinks they're exceptional in some way. I mean, the thing people don't take in into consideration is is is, is risk. So, like, they they might go off if I just buy Nvidia or Apple or whatever Shopify,

03:14

I mean, And the thing is in the short term, you almost certainly can.

I mean, And the thing is in the short term, you almost certainly can.

03:18

Over the next two or three years, you get lucky. Pick one, pick a winner. But the rest of your life, That's the question. So here's what I've done lately. I've been spending time in New York, because I've got family here. And I cold emailed and did cold outreach, and I randomly met a bunch of people who work at hedge funds. And I'm like, hey, like, I'm not, like, a competitor. You don't ever have to worry about me. I'm just, like, a a passionate, interesting, interested person. Can I just, like, see your office and just, like, can I just sit at your computer and you just show me your software? And, like, I just wanna see, like, what you do all day. And you go to some of these offices, and, you know, I would have thought, like, there are, like, woofle wall street where it's, like, buzzing and, like, the phones are ringing. It's really just a bunch it's pretty quiet it's usually just like a bunch of nerds, like, looking at a computer screen, but they got, like, four screens, and they've got, like, incredibly complicated software And the average show is getting paid hundreds of thousands, sometimes tens of millions of dollars to be good at this one thing. And then I think about, like, how is, like, Bobby Lee in whatever, Missouri where I'm from on his Robinhood app possibly gonna have, like, an edge on all these resources. And these people with all these resources, they're still not that good. You know, I talked to a guy who worked at Bridgewater recently, I was like bridgewater. I've run up Ray Dalio. Aren't you guys like the best? He's like, sometimes we're the best, but the last fifteen years, we've sucked. We've underperformed the market. And I'm like, that's insane that fifteen hundred employees tens of billions or hundreds of billions that are assets. You're all paid, like, the best there is. You still can't beat it. And so that kinda, like, that's kind of where I'm coming from. Yeah. It it's also like Vegas. You go to Vegas and, you know, you've got you're on a hot streak for for thirty minutes

Over the next two or three years, you get lucky. Pick one, pick a winner. But the rest of your life, That's the question. So here's what I've done lately. I've been spending time in New York, because I've got family here. And I cold emailed and did cold outreach, and I randomly met a bunch of people who work at hedge funds. And I'm like, hey, like, I'm not, like, a competitor. You don't ever have to worry about me. I'm just, like, a a passionate, interesting, interested person. Can I just, like, see your office and just, like, can I just sit at your computer and you just show me your software? And, like, I just wanna see, like, what you do all day. And you go to some of these offices, and, you know, I would have thought, like, there are, like, woofle wall street where it's, like, buzzing and, like, the phones are ringing. It's really just a bunch it's pretty quiet it's usually just like a bunch of nerds, like, looking at a computer screen, but they got, like, four screens, and they've got, like, incredibly complicated software And the average show is getting paid hundreds of thousands, sometimes tens of millions of dollars to be good at this one thing. And then I think about, like, how is, like, Bobby Lee in whatever, Missouri where I'm from on his Robinhood app possibly gonna have, like, an edge on all these resources. And these people with all these resources, they're still not that good. You know, I talked to a guy who worked at Bridgewater recently, I was like bridgewater. I've run up Ray Dalio. Aren't you guys like the best? He's like, sometimes we're the best, but the last fifteen years, we've sucked. We've underperformed the market. And I'm like, that's insane that fifteen hundred employees tens of billions or hundreds of billions that are assets. You're all paid, like, the best there is. You still can't beat it. And so that kinda, like, that's kind of where I'm coming from. Yeah. It it's also like Vegas. You go to Vegas and, you know, you've got you're on a hot streak for for thirty minutes

04:55

And, you know, the longer you play, the less you're gonna win, you're gonna lose, like, you're gonna lose. The house is going to win over the long term. So people I think have this idea of short term performance in the market feeling like I can I can do this forever? Just like in Vegas, you can't do that forever and you will begin to lose and the same thing is in the market. So, yeah, lock it in. What's this thing about loosening the grip on the stick?

And, you know, the longer you play, the less you're gonna win, you're gonna lose, like, you're gonna lose. The house is going to win over the long term. So people I think have this idea of short term performance in the market feeling like I can I can do this forever? Just like in Vegas, you can't do that forever and you will begin to lose and the same thing is in the market. So, yeah, lock it in. What's this thing about loosening the grip on the stick?

05:18

Oh, yeah. So

Oh, yeah. So

05:20

I got a I got a drum set recently. I I used to kinda wanna play drums. I kinda did for a little bit. I stopped for many years, and I kinda just picked it up recently. My office is a bit of a mess, so I gotta find better place for it. But right now, it's in the corner.

I got a I got a drum set recently. I I used to kinda wanna play drums. I kinda did for a little bit. I stopped for many years, and I kinda just picked it up recently. My office is a bit of a mess, so I gotta find better place for it. But right now, it's in the corner.

05:32

And as I've been playing, I I I I learned this very quick lesson. And actually, it's true when I to learn how to play guitar. I say try again because I'm I'm not very good at these things, but I I enjoy them.

And as I've been playing, I I I I learned this very quick lesson. And actually, it's true when I to learn how to play guitar. I say try again because I'm I'm not very good at these things, but I I enjoy them.

05:42

Is when you're new at something,

Is when you're new at something,

05:44

You tend to hold things too tightly.

You tend to hold things too tightly.

05:47

Like, I I hold the drumstick too tightly. I hold the neck of the guitar. Tightly. Anyone who's played any instrument will understand kinda where I'm getting where I'm coming from here. I used to play drums. I know what you're talking about. Okay. So you you hold stick really, really hard. And then you fatigue faster. You don't have as much articulation on the stick. You can't get certain ghost notes and tones out of things because you're always hitting too hard and too firmly and you just there's no finesse.

Like, I I hold the drumstick too tightly. I hold the neck of the guitar. Tightly. Anyone who's played any instrument will understand kinda where I'm getting where I'm coming from here. I used to play drums. I know what you're talking about. Okay. So you you hold stick really, really hard. And then you fatigue faster. You don't have as much articulation on the stick. You can't get certain ghost notes and tones out of things because you're always hitting too hard and too firmly and you just there's no finesse.

06:10

And it kinda dawned on me recently that, this is very, very true for most things in life. I think, especially business, I kind of some ways I feel silly always bringing this back to business. Anyway, I realized it, like, by simply loosening my grip a bit, by lightening up

And it kinda dawned on me recently that, this is very, very true for most things in life. I think, especially business, I kind of some ways I feel silly always bringing this back to business. Anyway, I realized it, like, by simply loosening my grip a bit, by lightening up

06:26

You end up having better control. You end up playing better. You end up working better. You can do it longer

You end up having better control. You end up playing better. You end up working better. You can do it longer

06:33

and you allow other things to happen that weren't possible when you're gripping so tightly. I think this is true for business. I think when you're starting a business, you you have a really tight grip on things typically, and it's best at some point to loosen up a little bit and let the rest of the organization

and you allow other things to happen that weren't possible when you're gripping so tightly. I think this is true for business. I think when you're starting a business, you you have a really tight grip on things typically, and it's best at some point to loosen up a little bit and let the rest of the organization

06:46

expand into itself versus you trying to control every last thing. And I run into a lot of entrepreneurs

expand into itself versus you trying to control every last thing. And I run into a lot of entrepreneurs

06:51

who I think have not learned how to let go of the stick.

who I think have not learned how to let go of the stick.

06:54

I think that that's also a young man's thing to do. Right? Like, you learn this with age.

I think that that's also a young man's thing to do. Right? Like, you learn this with age.

07:00

What are you saying? What are what are you what are you trying to say? Well, what I'm saying is you you you have a couple decades of, of experience

What are you saying? What are what are you what are you trying to say? Well, what I'm saying is you you you have a couple decades of, of experience

07:06

and, and, like, And so do I? And I think that as I'm getting older, which I'm not old, but neither of you, I'm learning it is okay to loosen up. That's what they say a lot about

and, and, like, And so do I? And I think that as I'm getting older, which I'm not old, but neither of you, I'm learning it is okay to loosen up. That's what they say a lot about

07:17

men, they say, oh, well, she used to be intense, but he's mellowed out. He's mellowed out. And that's usually what they're referring to.

men, they say, oh, well, she used to be intense, but he's mellowed out. He's mellowed out. And that's usually what they're referring to.

07:24

Yes. That's a good point. Yeah. The mellowing out.

Yes. That's a good point. Yeah. The mellowing out.

07:28

It's nice though in in a different realm of something to to find a metaphor.

It's nice though in in a different realm of something to to find a metaphor.

07:34

And in in my head now, I am kind of thinking about this, like, loosen, like, loosen up your grip a little bit. In what parts of life, Well, I'd say business. I would say also, like, with my kids a little bit. I I

And in in my head now, I am kind of thinking about this, like, loosen, like, loosen up your grip a little bit. In what parts of life, Well, I'd say business. I would say also, like, with my kids a little bit. I I

07:46

I would say there's a way where I kinda wanted wanted them to do certain things a certain way. And I and it just it it creates this conflict. Like, they're their own people. I'm my own person,

I would say there's a way where I kinda wanted wanted them to do certain things a certain way. And I and it just it it creates this conflict. Like, they're their own people. I'm my own person,

07:56

and, you know, I I wanna encourage them to do certain things in a certain way, but I also gotta loosen up a little bit around that and let them find their own way.

and, you know, I I wanna encourage them to do certain things in a certain way, but I also gotta loosen up a little bit around that and let them find their own way.

08:03

And that that's something I kinda learned pretty early in parenting.

And that that's something I kinda learned pretty early in parenting.

08:08

So there's a lot there's a lot of things, but I just, in general, I just feel better when I'm not gripping things. So so tightly.

So there's a lot there's a lot of things, but I just, in general, I just feel better when I'm not gripping things. So so tightly.

08:14

And, when I look out there,

And, when I look out there,

08:18

you know, on on Twitter or or anywhere LinkedIn or whatever I'm I'm looking at these, like, business stories. There's just I'm I'm reading

you know, on on Twitter or or anywhere LinkedIn or whatever I'm I'm looking at these, like, business stories. There's just I'm I'm reading

08:26

a lot of grip. I'm reading a lot of tension.

a lot of grip. I'm reading a lot of tension.

08:30

That that, you know, people are trying to

That that, you know, people are trying to

08:33

opt over optimize and paying attention to every last little thing in a way where I feel like Just loosen up a little bit. Like, pay attention to a few things that matter and let let it let things just be a little bit more. Alright. Look, the question that Sean and I get asked constantly is what skill did we develop early on in our careers that kinda changed our business career? And that's an easy answer. It's copywriting. We've talked about copywriting and how it's changed our life constantly on this podcast. And we give a ton of tips, a ton of techniques, a ton of frameworks, and throughout all the podcast, well, we decided to aggregate all of that into one simple document. So you can read all of it. You can see how we've learned copywriting, but you can see the resources that we turn to on a daily basis. You can see the frameworks, the techniques we use. It's in a simple document. You can check it out in the link below. Alright. Now back to the show. The best example that I've experienced this in my real life is arguing with people. And so before, it was, like, every word that I, like, when I learned to talk, it was, like, it was fight was the first was the first thing that came out. Know, like, my early words where I wanted to fight. And so if I met someone with a different political,

opt over optimize and paying attention to every last little thing in a way where I feel like Just loosen up a little bit. Like, pay attention to a few things that matter and let let it let things just be a little bit more. Alright. Look, the question that Sean and I get asked constantly is what skill did we develop early on in our careers that kinda changed our business career? And that's an easy answer. It's copywriting. We've talked about copywriting and how it's changed our life constantly on this podcast. And we give a ton of tips, a ton of techniques, a ton of frameworks, and throughout all the podcast, well, we decided to aggregate all of that into one simple document. So you can read all of it. You can see how we've learned copywriting, but you can see the resources that we turn to on a daily basis. You can see the frameworks, the techniques we use. It's in a simple document. You can check it out in the link below. Alright. Now back to the show. The best example that I've experienced this in my real life is arguing with people. And so before, it was, like, every word that I, like, when I learned to talk, it was, like, it was fight was the first was the first thing that came out. Know, like, my early words where I wanted to fight. And so if I met someone with a different political,

09:34

perspective, it was you're wrong for these reasons that you're really stupid for that.

perspective, it was you're wrong for these reasons that you're really stupid for that.

09:39

When I lived in San Francisco, I I was it was I was significantly

When I lived in San Francisco, I I was it was I was significantly

09:43

more combative than I am nowadays. As I, I've been lucky that I was raised in Missouri and that I,

more combative than I am nowadays. As I, I've been lucky that I was raised in Missouri and that I,

09:50

lived in San Francisco, lived in New York, lived in Texas, and that has shaped me a bit politically, but also that it it it bleeds to other points of life, which is, like, instead of someone saying some when someone says something that I disagree with, it's more so instead of fighting, it's, well, why do you feel that way? That that's it that's a really interesting perspective. Tell me more about why you feel that way. And I think I don't know if this is just a clickbait thing, but Keanu Reeves had this quote where he was like, I used to argue with people. Now I never argue. You could say one plus one equals five, and I'll say, I hope you have a really good day.

lived in San Francisco, lived in New York, lived in Texas, and that has shaped me a bit politically, but also that it it it bleeds to other points of life, which is, like, instead of someone saying some when someone says something that I disagree with, it's more so instead of fighting, it's, well, why do you feel that way? That that's it that's a really interesting perspective. Tell me more about why you feel that way. And I think I don't know if this is just a clickbait thing, but Keanu Reeves had this quote where he was like, I used to argue with people. Now I never argue. You could say one plus one equals five, and I'll say, I hope you have a really good day.

10:23

And and that's a little bit about how how it's been where I just wanna argue a bit less. And I'll I'll still catch myself arguing. But, Dale Cardegi in this book, how to win influence to how to in friends, win friends and influence people. He's got many famous lines, but one of the famous teachings is basically just don't argue with people because you no party typically walks away happy or satisfied. And so, loosening the grip for me is arguing less where it's I'm not even gonna judge you. And I'm just gonna I can recognize that you think this way and I think this way, and it's cool. It's a great example, actually. I hadn't thought about that, but that that's another great example. Just like holding on it's not even holding on too tightly to a perspective because you you can have a perspective that you really believe in. But it's it's it's, you know, it's like don't clench or you're not even able to listen. You know, I think the the point about, like, being too

And and that's a little bit about how how it's been where I just wanna argue a bit less. And I'll I'll still catch myself arguing. But, Dale Cardegi in this book, how to win influence to how to in friends, win friends and influence people. He's got many famous lines, but one of the famous teachings is basically just don't argue with people because you no party typically walks away happy or satisfied. And so, loosening the grip for me is arguing less where it's I'm not even gonna judge you. And I'm just gonna I can recognize that you think this way and I think this way, and it's cool. It's a great example, actually. I hadn't thought about that, but that that's another great example. Just like holding on it's not even holding on too tightly to a perspective because you you can have a perspective that you really believe in. But it's it's it's, you know, it's like don't clench or you're not even able to listen. You know, I think the the point about, like, being too

11:14

grippy is is your your you're it's like you're a spring under tension. And if someone says something to you that you disagree with, like, you're gonna, boom, expand and, like, blowed, right, which is kind of what an argument can be versus just already taking some attention out of that spring and just, like, bouncing with it, listening, versus exploding out of it. I think that's a big difference. Have you ever read? There's there's this term. I'll have to figure out what the term is, but there's this term where astronauts go to space.

grippy is is your your you're it's like you're a spring under tension. And if someone says something to you that you disagree with, like, you're gonna, boom, expand and, like, blowed, right, which is kind of what an argument can be versus just already taking some attention out of that spring and just, like, bouncing with it, listening, versus exploding out of it. I think that's a big difference. Have you ever read? There's there's this term. I'll have to figure out what the term is, but there's this term where astronauts go to space.

11:41

And they see the earth from far away. And many of them have reported to have a life changing perspective

And they see the earth from far away. And many of them have reported to have a life changing perspective

11:48

where they think to themselves,

where they think to themselves,

11:50

the fact that we're fighting over religion is ridiculous. The fact that we're fighting over borders is ridiculous. Now let's zoomed down to the smaller things. The fact that we're fighting over someone saying something rude to us is absolutely crazy because we're all just a bunch of monkeys on this, like, floating thing. And it's like Mostly with cars. It's all we are. Yeah. And we see, like, this this abyss, and then we're just a silly blue thing in the middle of it and and and it's, like, a lot of astronauts say it changes their perspective and it mellows them out. And I think that when I read about that years ago, it kinda helped me calm down a little bit more. To where you think not this the stuff that I thought mattered doesn't matter. For example, I remember when COVID happened, and I was like, we're never going to a concert ever again. And then three years later, I'm like, fuck that. I forgot all about that. Do you know what I mean? Totally. Have you have you, to that point about astronauts? Have you,

the fact that we're fighting over religion is ridiculous. The fact that we're fighting over borders is ridiculous. Now let's zoomed down to the smaller things. The fact that we're fighting over someone saying something rude to us is absolutely crazy because we're all just a bunch of monkeys on this, like, floating thing. And it's like Mostly with cars. It's all we are. Yeah. And we see, like, this this abyss, and then we're just a silly blue thing in the middle of it and and and it's, like, a lot of astronauts say it changes their perspective and it mellows them out. And I think that when I read about that years ago, it kinda helped me calm down a little bit more. To where you think not this the stuff that I thought mattered doesn't matter. For example, I remember when COVID happened, and I was like, we're never going to a concert ever again. And then three years later, I'm like, fuck that. I forgot all about that. Do you know what I mean? Totally. Have you have you, to that point about astronauts? Have you,

12:39

read that great passage from Carl Sagan, the the pale blue dot. What'd he say? No.

read that great passage from Carl Sagan, the the pale blue dot. What'd he say? No.

12:44

I mean,

I mean,

12:45

it's one of the most beautiful. I'm not gonna say I want you to read it. I want you to have the experience. It's short. It's a paragraph.

it's one of the most beautiful. I'm not gonna say I want you to read it. I want you to have the experience. It's short. It's a paragraph.

12:51

It is one of the most beautiful passages

It is one of the most beautiful passages

12:54

I've ever read, but it's it's exactly kinda what you were talking about with the astronauts, like, looking back at the earth.

I've ever read, but it's it's exactly kinda what you were talking about with the astronauts, like, looking back at the earth.

13:01

It's all about all the things

It's all about all the things

13:03

that have ever happened, I'm gonna really generalize here because I want you to read the words, but all the things that have ever happened, every leader, every religion, every point of view, every argument every whatever. Right? Beautifully and beautiful prose happened

that have ever happened, I'm gonna really generalize here because I want you to read the words, but all the things that have ever happened, every leader, every religion, every point of view, every argument every whatever. Right? Beautifully and beautiful prose happened

13:16

on this speck

on this speck

13:19

of dust.

of dust.

13:20

Basically. I think he calls it like a moat of dust. It's such a beautiful passage, and it it brings tears to my eyes. And I try to read it a few times a year because it's so

Basically. I think he calls it like a moat of dust. It's such a beautiful passage, and it it brings tears to my eyes. And I try to read it a few times a year because it's so

13:29

Right. It's so spot on right and it's exactly what you're talking about in the most beautiful poetic way.

Right. It's so spot on right and it's exactly what you're talking about in the most beautiful poetic way.

13:36

Which is all the stuff

Which is all the stuff

13:38

that we're worried about, all these things, like, very few of those things matter. Although, of course, they matter in your day to day life. So, like, they're real for you. But they really don't matter that much. And it's just a good reminder that, you know, all the things we're just so fired up about.

that we're worried about, all these things, like, very few of those things matter. Although, of course, they matter in your day to day life. So, like, they're real for you. But they really don't matter that much. And it's just a good reminder that, you know, all the things we're just so fired up about.

13:53

Well, it's a it it's a paradox of, like, caring by not caring.

Well, it's a it it's a paradox of, like, caring by not caring.

13:57

Why do you not, like, comparing this stuff to business? And and I'll afterwards, I'll tell you my reason why I think it's good. Yes. So this is an undeveloped thought of mine that's been sort of on my mind.

Why do you not, like, comparing this stuff to business? And and I'll afterwards, I'll tell you my reason why I think it's good. Yes. So this is an undeveloped thought of mine that's been sort of on my mind.

14:08

And I don't know if it's a good idea or not. So just run with me here. I'm gonna I'm gonna kinda

And I don't know if it's a good idea or not. So just run with me here. I'm gonna I'm gonna kinda

14:13

This is undeveloped.

This is undeveloped.

14:15

It seems like

It seems like

14:16

every great lesson

every great lesson

14:18

is then applied to business by someone. So for example, a navy seal learns all the stuff in the military, and they come and they, like, then consult for companies about how to, like, run teams

is then applied to business by someone. So for example, a navy seal learns all the stuff in the military, and they come and they, like, then consult for companies about how to, like, run teams

14:29

or some great coach

or some great coach

14:30

coaches a great team, and then they come and they bring it to the business world. It's always like bringing it to the business world. And I'm like, what does the business world deserve

coaches a great team, and then they come and they bring it to the business world. It's always like bringing it to the business world. And I'm like, what does the business world deserve

14:39

the best lessons from things that are completely unrelated in many ways to business. But why does it always come to the business world? And the main reason is why my opinion is because the business world pays for that advice. It's not that it deserves the advice.

the best lessons from things that are completely unrelated in many ways to business. But why does it always come to the business world? And the main reason is why my opinion is because the business world pays for that advice. It's not that it deserves the advice.

14:51

It's not even that it's advice that's applicable

It's not even that it's advice that's applicable

14:54

but that it pays for the advice. And the way I've been thinking about it is not as this this this this shining beacon on a hill that business deserves all the greatest things but actually as the drain. That all these ideas

but that it pays for the advice. And the way I've been thinking about it is not as this this this this shining beacon on a hill that business deserves all the greatest things but actually as the drain. That all these ideas

15:07

drain down through business because business sort of just is willing to pay for it.

drain down through business because business sort of just is willing to pay for it.

15:12

And and listen to it and sort of have this this this,

And and listen to it and sort of have this this this,

15:16

it's sort of insecure in a way. So, like, it's it wants to listen to the Navy's seals was listed in the great double or n n c double a coach. It wants to listen because it it's insecure in its own way.

it's sort of insecure in a way. So, like, it's it wants to listen to the Navy's seals was listed in the great double or n n c double a coach. It wants to listen because it it's insecure in its own way.

15:27

And also there's this there's this sense of, like,

And also there's this there's this sense of, like,

15:30

these other places and people, they know better than us. So we're gonna we're gonna just, you know, bow down for their advice. And I don't again, this is a little bit

these other places and people, they know better than us. So we're gonna we're gonna just, you know, bow down for their advice. And I don't again, this is a little bit

15:39

unformed,

unformed,

15:40

but

but

15:42

it it's something that just bugs me a little bit. I don't know. Does that make any sense? Or is it is it Just a weird idea. No. It makes sense, but my argument would be instead of the image that you've had you've just painted is you've painted

it it's something that just bugs me a little bit. I don't know. Does that make any sense? Or is it is it Just a weird idea. No. It makes sense, but my argument would be instead of the image that you've had you've just painted is you've painted

15:55

a upside down triangle with all of this beautiful stuff draining down into this bad thing. Thank you. I would turn that turn that up side down, it'd say, it all is going up to this amazing thing. And here's why. Because I think that whether you like capitalism or don't like capitalism,

a upside down triangle with all of this beautiful stuff draining down into this bad thing. Thank you. I would turn that turn that up side down, it'd say, it all is going up to this amazing thing. And here's why. Because I think that whether you like capitalism or don't like capitalism,

16:12

You cannot deny that it's here to stay. At worst, it's here to stay in the lifetime of everyone who's alive.

You cannot deny that it's here to stay. At worst, it's here to stay in the lifetime of everyone who's alive.

16:19

Maybe America will change. Maybe maybe the rest of the the majority of the world will change, but I I I wouldn't bet on that happening anytime soon.

Maybe America will change. Maybe maybe the rest of the the majority of the world will change, but I I I wouldn't bet on that happening anytime soon.

16:27

Therefore,

Therefore,

16:28

I think that capitalism and thus business building is the most practical way to manifest a dream or reality.

I think that capitalism and thus business building is the most practical way to manifest a dream or reality.

16:35

And oftentimes, you could say, well, what about art? And I would agree with that. But at the end of the day, you're still making stuff that people want. And you're still selling tickets. You're still trying to make some type of money off of your art so you can continue doing it, or you're just gonna have a rich person who funds you so you are able to do it. And so my opinion, business is the most practical way

And oftentimes, you could say, well, what about art? And I would agree with that. But at the end of the day, you're still making stuff that people want. And you're still selling tickets. You're still trying to make some type of money off of your art so you can continue doing it, or you're just gonna have a rich person who funds you so you are able to do it. And so my opinion, business is the most practical way

16:57

to actually

to actually

16:58

kick a dent in the world or to manifest a vision. And so I think a business as a very, like, I'm very passionate about it being a little bit of a spiritual

kick a dent in the world or to manifest a vision. And so I think a business as a very, like, I'm very passionate about it being a little bit of a spiritual

17:07

journey of, like, turning dreams into reality. That's an optimistic point of view, which which I I do understand.

journey of, like, turning dreams into reality. That's an optimistic point of view, which which I I do understand.

17:14

Here's my question.

Here's my question.

17:16

If this thing called business is absorbing

If this thing called business is absorbing

17:19

all of these lessons

all of these lessons

17:21

from all of these other realms, right, and they're all like either filtering down or filtering up, but they're filtering too.

from all of these other realms, right, and they're all like either filtering down or filtering up, but they're filtering too.

17:28

And maybe I'm wrong about this, but why aren't the navy seals

And maybe I'm wrong about this, but why aren't the navy seals

17:33

asking CEOs

asking CEOs

17:34

for advice.

for advice.

17:36

Well, sometimes they are. If you look at, like, I don't know. Maybe they are. Like, Jack Welsh's book six sigma, like, a lot of different types of organizations outside of business, like, view that book. I I don't really like that book, but they view it as, like,

Well, sometimes they are. If you look at, like, I don't know. Maybe they are. Like, Jack Welsh's book six sigma, like, a lot of different types of organizations outside of business, like, view that book. I I don't really like that book, but they view it as, like,

17:49

the rules of the game. Yeah.

the rules of the game. Yeah.

17:52

Okay. Yeah. I might be uninformed in in a sense of, like, what who the military is listening to and who, you know, sports teams are. But there's something that's like you would imagine this this this entity, this business thing that has absorbed everything would then be the definitive source

Okay. Yeah. I might be uninformed in in a sense of, like, what who the military is listening to and who, you know, sports teams are. But there's something that's like you would imagine this this this entity, this business thing that has absorbed everything would then be the definitive source

18:07

of this wisdom, but I wonder, is it a one way street or is it a two way street? I think they're more right than you are wrong. That's for sure. It's definitely more one way. Yeah. No. I just wanted to give I just wanted to give one example, but I was yeah. Frankly, it's a nitpick example.

of this wisdom, but I wonder, is it a one way street or is it a two way street? I think they're more right than you are wrong. That's for sure. It's definitely more one way. Yeah. No. I just wanted to give I just wanted to give one example, but I was yeah. Frankly, it's a nitpick example.

18:22

Totally. I I don't I don't know. Again, I don't know if this is a good idea or not. It's just it's been sort of floating in my head for a bit. So I it's fun to air these things out. What was more fun? Early days or late days of the company? Oh, man. That's a really good question.

Totally. I I don't I don't know. Again, I don't know if this is a good idea or not. It's just it's been sort of floating in my head for a bit. So I it's fun to air these things out. What was more fun? Early days or late days of the company? Oh, man. That's a really good question.

18:38

They're very fun in very different ways. So I'm gonna it's a bit of a cop out, but it's it's true. But they're fun in different ways. What's exciting about the early days

They're very fun in very different ways. So I'm gonna it's a bit of a cop out, but it's it's true. But they're fun in different ways. What's exciting about the early days

18:47

is there's a certain energy that you can never capture again,

is there's a certain energy that you can never capture again,

18:50

which is the the there's so much more unknown.

which is the the there's so much more unknown.

18:54

Like, you're you're you're starting from zero and you're building something and you don't know where it's gonna be and where it's gonna go and what's possible and what isn't and how long it's gonna last and all those things. Now you don't know how long it's ever gonna last in a sense, but there's this there's this hope. There's this possibility. There's this birth. And, you know, it's like boom. We're out in the world, and here we are, and this is an incredible thing.

Like, you're you're you're starting from zero and you're building something and you don't know where it's gonna be and where it's gonna go and what's possible and what isn't and how long it's gonna last and all those things. Now you don't know how long it's ever gonna last in a sense, but there's this there's this hope. There's this possibility. There's this birth. And, you know, it's like boom. We're out in the world, and here we are, and this is an incredible thing.

19:15

And that's super fun. And then you get a lot of new attention and you're kinda burst on the scene, and that's exciting, really exciting.

And that's super fun. And then you get a lot of new attention and you're kinda burst on the scene, and that's exciting, really exciting.

19:22

I think what's what's hard actually is the middle. We've gotten to a place now being having done this for twenty five years. It's become really fun again in a different way, but I would say, like, fifteen years in is a different story.

I think what's what's hard actually is the middle. We've gotten to a place now being having done this for twenty five years. It's become really fun again in a different way, but I would say, like, fifteen years in is a different story.

19:35

Because that at that point, it's like, we've been doing this for a while. I don't know how much longer it's going to last. Like, you're kind of in this sort of maintenance thing. Were you big enough at at fifteen years where you're, like, like, payroll is not an issue. Like, were you out of, like, any type of,

Because that at that point, it's like, we've been doing this for a while. I don't know how much longer it's going to last. Like, you're kind of in this sort of maintenance thing. Were you big enough at at fifteen years where you're, like, like, payroll is not an issue. Like, were you out of, like, any type of,

19:51

outside pressure where it was, like, things are fine. I it's, like, I feel weird that I have I'm complaining, but this feels weird.

outside pressure where it was, like, things are fine. I it's, like, I feel weird that I have I'm complaining, but this feels weird.

19:58

Yeah. And I I'm I'm not really complaining about it. Yeah. Yeah. It's more like You know, Scott Scott Bellski wrote a book called the messy middle? Yeah. It's great. I've not read the book, actually, but I understand the idea of it. And it's kinda what I'm trying to get at, which is like, the middle of it is

Yeah. And I I'm I'm not really complaining about it. Yeah. Yeah. It's more like You know, Scott Scott Bellski wrote a book called the messy middle? Yeah. It's great. I've not read the book, actually, but I understand the idea of it. And it's kinda what I'm trying to get at, which is like, the middle of it is

20:14

it's like, what do we wanna be now? And and where do we wanna go now? And are we gonna be a big company? Are we gonna stay a small company. There's all these opportunities that are surrounding us now and swirling around us versus when you're starting, you're just like, you're just going. You're just moving. Then you can just play it place where you're, like, kind of evaluating.

it's like, what do we wanna be now? And and where do we wanna go now? And are we gonna be a big company? Are we gonna stay a small company. There's all these opportunities that are surrounding us now and swirling around us versus when you're starting, you're just like, you're just going. You're just moving. Then you can just play it place where you're, like, kind of evaluating.

20:31

And now we're in this place where we're just sort of mellowed in a sense to your point, although we're actually getting very ambitious again because we have the sense of, like, we've been doing this so long now that, like, if we took some crazy bets or made placed some crazy bets and it just totally all fell apart, like,

And now we're in this place where we're just sort of mellowed in a sense to your point, although we're actually getting very ambitious again because we have the sense of, like, we've been doing this so long now that, like, if we took some crazy bets or made placed some crazy bets and it just totally all fell apart, like,

20:45

I don't want that to happen, but I'd be okay with that too. Like, we're the place where it's like, we've done plenty, and we've had an incredible run. And if it all ended with a bang because we tried some crazy stuff that didn't work. Like, I'd be okay with that too. So I feel like I'm at that place now where I wouldn't have been at fifteen years. That makes any sense. Which your sense? I mean, you start a bunch of stuff. My sense is that,

I don't want that to happen, but I'd be okay with that too. Like, we're the place where it's like, we've done plenty, and we've had an incredible run. And if it all ended with a bang because we tried some crazy stuff that didn't work. Like, I'd be okay with that too. So I feel like I'm at that place now where I wouldn't have been at fifteen years. That makes any sense. Which your sense? I mean, you start a bunch of stuff. My sense is that,

21:08

so none of my things have had been as big as yours, but they've been big enough where we've had dozens or, you know, fifty, sixty employees. And it it we got outside of

so none of my things have had been as big as yours, but they've been big enough where we've had dozens or, you know, fifty, sixty employees. And it it we got outside of

21:17

the like, existential crisis moment where it's, like, things are working.

the like, existential crisis moment where it's, like, things are working.

21:21

My

My

21:23

and and everyone talks about focus. Focus is a very common thing, and it's something I I firmly believe in. But, someone who likes to make things,

and and everyone talks about focus. Focus is a very common thing, and it's something I I firmly believe in. But, someone who likes to make things,

21:32

for my skill set, a company outside, like, maybe, let's say, three million in revenue or maybe maybe five million in

for my skill set, a company outside, like, maybe, let's say, three million in revenue or maybe maybe five million in

21:40

revenue I've noticed consistently a five million in revenue and, like,

revenue I've noticed consistently a five million in revenue and, like,

21:45

fifteen employees,

fifteen employees,

21:46

something like that. I'm, like, I don't know what to do with my hands. Like, I'm just sitting here. Like, what how do what do I do? I feel useless, and I feel like,

something like that. I'm, like, I don't know what to do with my hands. Like, I'm just sitting here. Like, what how do what do I do? I feel useless, and I feel like,

21:55

sometimes a general behind the scenes just pointing.

sometimes a general behind the scenes just pointing.

21:59

And I've noticed

And I've noticed

22:00

something that I I I really dislike, but it's normal is a company ebbs and flows.

something that I I I really dislike, but it's normal is a company ebbs and flows.

22:06

And I've noticed that this ebb and flow carries over to the rest of my life, where, I just had a child, and I'm like, I'm in this

And I've noticed that this ebb and flow carries over to the rest of my life, where, I just had a child, and I'm like, I'm in this

22:13

quiet time for a moment where I have to be present, whereas there's other times where you're dating or something like that. And you're like, I'm in I'm I'm in war mode a little bit. Where it's, like, there's it's action constantly or, like, I'm on top of my game, and I gotta be on top of my game. Same with business. Where it's, like, we're launching this new thing. We're we're out fighting,

quiet time for a moment where I have to be present, whereas there's other times where you're dating or something like that. And you're like, I'm in I'm I'm in war mode a little bit. Where it's, like, there's it's action constantly or, like, I'm on top of my game, and I gotta be on top of my game. Same with business. Where it's, like, we're launching this new thing. We're we're out fighting,

22:29

with the troops for in the trenches And then there's other times. Sometimes this, I think, can last for years, maybe, where it's just like, if we're just doing the same thing over and over and over again, And that period can be a little depressing, even though everything is going well. It's a very saddening period because you lack action.

with the troops for in the trenches And then there's other times. Sometimes this, I think, can last for years, maybe, where it's just like, if we're just doing the same thing over and over and over again, And that period can be a little depressing, even though everything is going well. It's a very saddening period because you lack action.

22:47

It's basically, like, what they say with a lot of great investors,

It's basically, like, what they say with a lot of great investors,

22:50

I think,

I think,

22:51

manish said this on our,

manish said this on our,

22:53

Pebriah on our last podcast. He was like, If you can watch paint dry, you're gonna be a good investor.

Pebriah on our last podcast. He was like, If you can watch paint dry, you're gonna be a good investor.

22:59

The problem with that for a lot of, a lot of entrepreneurs or a lot of, like, go getters is that's a really sad place to be in. Even though everything is going well, it's really

The problem with that for a lot of, a lot of entrepreneurs or a lot of, like, go getters is that's a really sad place to be in. Even though everything is going well, it's really

23:09

uncomfortable

uncomfortable

23:09

to be in that feeling. And so have have you guys had a lot of Have you had a lot where you're like, man, I just gotta kinda, unfortunately, I had to do nothing for maybe years.

to be in that feeling. And so have have you guys had a lot of Have you had a lot where you're like, man, I just gotta kinda, unfortunately, I had to do nothing for maybe years.

23:18

Yeah. I can totally identify with that. And I think I think what you're getting at is with entrepreneurs is that what you're describing is in the early days,

Yeah. I can totally identify with that. And I think I think what you're getting at is with entrepreneurs is that what you're describing is in the early days,

23:26

you are very important

you are very important

23:28

as a founder. Yeah.

as a founder. Yeah.

23:30

Then there's a point where you build an organization.

Then there's a point where you build an organization.

23:32

And then the organization is able to, in some ways, in a good way, run without you to some degree,

And then the organization is able to, in some ways, in a good way, run without you to some degree,

23:37

And at that point, you kinda feel a little bit less valuable. Yeah. To your own thing that you made, it's a good thing

And at that point, you kinda feel a little bit less valuable. Yeah. To your own thing that you made, it's a good thing

23:45

But for you, it's a good thing because it means there's some stability and you're not the bottleneck and you're not the only person

But for you, it's a good thing because it means there's some stability and you're not the bottleneck and you're not the only person

23:52

that matters here anymore, obviously.

that matters here anymore, obviously.

23:54

But but for you personally, it feels a little bit like you've become detached from this thing that you made.

But but for you personally, it feels a little bit like you've become detached from this thing that you made.

23:59

And

And

24:01

you you're now further away typically from, like, the the the creation

you you're now further away typically from, like, the the the creation

24:05

phase,

phase,

24:06

and now you're more in the maintenance phase of something, and and you're dealing with

and now you're more in the maintenance phase of something, and and you're dealing with

24:11

internal politics and personalities

internal politics and personalities

24:13

and hiring, and you've got some great people who just left, and now you're gonna find new people and the culture is changing. And, like, that's a pretty tumultuous turbulent time for a founder.

and hiring, and you've got some great people who just left, and now you're gonna find new people and the culture is changing. And, like, that's a pretty tumultuous turbulent time for a founder.

24:22

And I've gone through that many times,

And I've gone through that many times,

24:24

and it it it comes comes and it goes.

and it it it comes comes and it goes.

24:27

What I've found is that

What I've found is that

24:30

what I kinda discovered actually recently

what I kinda discovered actually recently

24:32

is that my job as the founder I'm still a founder I still started this company. I'm still in it. Twenty five years. My job as a founder, what I've realized is is it's to inject risk

is that my job as the founder I'm still a founder I still started this company. I'm still in it. Twenty five years. My job as a founder, what I've realized is is it's to inject risk

24:43

into the business.

into the business.

24:44

Most people, everyone pretty much at your company, job is to manage risk to some degree, to keep their job, to not push too hard or too far ultimately,

Most people, everyone pretty much at your company, job is to manage risk to some degree, to keep their job, to not push too hard or too far ultimately,

24:55

you can get away with certain things that other people simply can't because you own the damn place. You are the original person.

you can get away with certain things that other people simply can't because you own the damn place. You are the original person.

25:01

So what I've found a lot more joy and and,

So what I've found a lot more joy and and,

25:05

and excitement in

and excitement in

25:07

is is revisiting this idea of injecting risk. And for us, that means And by the way, I don't think you could change that. I think, like, for a long time, I was like, why aren't these people taking risk I got a four step, and I'm like, there you go. It's impossible.

is is revisiting this idea of injecting risk. And for us, that means And by the way, I don't think you could change that. I think, like, for a long time, I was like, why aren't these people taking risk I got a four step, and I'm like, there you go. It's impossible.

25:19

That's impossible to change. Even if you hire a great great CEO to replace you with CEO, like, There, they just don't have that. They they might be an incredible

That's impossible to change. Even if you hire a great great CEO to replace you with CEO, like, There, they just don't have that. They they might be an incredible

25:28

CEO,

CEO,

25:29

great executive, executing things, trains are on time,

great executive, executing things, trains are on time,

25:32

incredible.

incredible.

25:34

But there's that thing that's

But there's that thing that's

25:37

present in a founder simply because they were there from the beginning,

present in a founder simply because they were there from the beginning,

25:40

that they they have an extra ounce of it's not even that they're they're not better. They're only they just have an extra ounce of latitude

that they they have an extra ounce of it's not even that they're they're not better. They're only they just have an extra ounce of latitude

25:47

that allows them to take risk that nobody's gonna say no to. Maybe if you have a board, maybe someone's gonna say no, but they'll still give you more latitude than a hired hand, basically, in a set. So my my sense is the way I found to return to this sort of flow versus the the app is is like

that allows them to take risk that nobody's gonna say no to. Maybe if you have a board, maybe someone's gonna say no, but they'll still give you more latitude than a hired hand, basically, in a set. So my my sense is the way I found to return to this sort of flow versus the the app is is like

26:05

is to inject more risk, which for us means we're gonna build a lot more products. Like, this year, we're gonna do four products. We're gonna we're gonna begin. We've we're about to start working on two products simultaneously,

is to inject more risk, which for us means we're gonna build a lot more products. Like, this year, we're gonna do four products. We're gonna we're gonna begin. We've we're about to start working on two products simultaneously,

26:16

which we've never done before.

which we've never done before.

26:18

We've never built two things at the same time.

We've never built two things at the same time.

26:21

And, like, this there's a lot of stuff going on. We got different models. We got once. We got SAS. We got all these things. We're gonna do multiple versions of multiple things in different different business models.

And, like, this there's a lot of stuff going on. We got different models. We got once. We got SAS. We got all these things. We're gonna do multiple versions of multiple things in different different business models.

26:30

And we're we're gonna we're really off balance in a really healthy way at the moment.

And we're we're gonna we're really off balance in a really healthy way at the moment.

26:35

Because, like, we're doing a bunch of new stuff. And that gets me excited. Now it makes some people internally nervous understandably so. It's like, well, this is different now. We're kinda off balance a little bit and we're trying new things. But That's how I have to run the business. Otherwise, I will become bored.

Because, like, we're doing a bunch of new stuff. And that gets me excited. Now it makes some people internally nervous understandably so. It's like, well, this is different now. We're kinda off balance a little bit and we're trying new things. But That's how I have to run the business. Otherwise, I will become bored.

26:52

And at that point,

And at that point,

26:54

it won't serve me or the business well if I'm in charge and am bored. That's that's not a good that's not a good thing. For my professional life or for my main company, that's like the main nine to five thing, for Hampton.

it won't serve me or the business well if I'm in charge and am bored. That's that's not a good that's not a good thing. For my professional life or for my main company, that's like the main nine to five thing, for Hampton.

27:05

I've not I do inject risk, but I have a CEO. And so, I try to I have to, like, respect.

I've not I do inject risk, but I have a CEO. And so, I try to I have to, like, respect.

27:12

I gotta respect that relationship. And so Yes.

I gotta respect that relationship. And so Yes.

27:15

On my nights and weekends,

On my nights and weekends,

27:16

I, I created a new website for fun.

I, I created a new website for fun.

27:19

I created this website called Sam's list. It's sam's list dot co.

I created this website called Sam's list. It's sam's list dot co.

27:24

Nice. And the reason I did it was I tweeted out, like, who's got an accountant that they love. Because I just needed an accountant for something. Yeah. I got, like, three hundred replies.

Nice. And the reason I did it was I tweeted out, like, who's got an accountant that they love. Because I just needed an accountant for something. Yeah. I got, like, three hundred replies.

27:34

And I was, like, wait. Something's interesting here because this

And I was, like, wait. Something's interesting here because this

27:37

tweet got so many bookmarks. Like, a lot of people bookmark it. It's almost like, oh, I'm saving this for later to find an accountant.

tweet got so many bookmarks. Like, a lot of people bookmark it. It's almost like, oh, I'm saving this for later to find an accountant.

27:43

So I was like, this is interesting. So I spent a few months calling every accountant on the list,

So I was like, this is interesting. So I spent a few months calling every accountant on the list,

27:49

finding out how much they charged, what services they provide, what services they don't provide, who the ideal client is, isn't the ideal client, whatever. And then I created a website called Sam's list where I reviewed or I, like, put all the information from all of my research for all these accountants. Created this website. I think I got eight thousand people to come in the first week. And then I,

finding out how much they charged, what services they provide, what services they don't provide, who the ideal client is, isn't the ideal client, whatever. And then I created a website called Sam's list where I reviewed or I, like, put all the information from all of my research for all these accountants. Created this website. I think I got eight thousand people to come in the first week. And then I,

28:10

started figuring out how to monetize it. And so this month, the the first month that's been live, it's May twenty second when we're filming this. I think it's done twenty thousand this month.

started figuring out how to monetize it. And so this month, the the first month that's been live, it's May twenty second when we're filming this. I think it's done twenty thousand this month.

28:20

And the twenty thousand dollars that I've made from that is more dopamine than, let's say, a million dollars a month or two million dollars a month

And the twenty thousand dollars that I've made from that is more dopamine than, let's say, a million dollars a month or two million dollars a month

28:29

that I've gotten from other things. It's a total rush, and I love it. Why is it? Why do you think that why do you think that's so exciting for

that I've gotten from other things. It's a total rush, and I love it. Why is it? Why do you think that why do you think that's so exciting for

28:37

you? It's a total rush because what started it's so fun.

you? It's a total rush because what started it's so fun.

28:43

It's so fun for things that start as silly jokes, like

It's so fun for things that start as silly jokes, like

28:47

like, just stupid. Like, the calculate like, the the logo that we have is a calculator that has three numbers and a queue, and it looks like Clippy. It looks like Clippy from Microsoft, like, waving at you. It looks like Mickey Mouse. And I just used chat GPT. I said make a logo that looks like Clippy, but it's a calculator. And it's so fun to take silly jokey stuff and turn it into real things that actually solve problems. And I find that to be almost like part trolling, part, like, shit eating grin, like, scheming. Like, I love that, like, isn't it would it be hilarious if we made this a thing? And then actually seeing it become a thing, I find to be so exciting.

like, just stupid. Like, the calculate like, the the logo that we have is a calculator that has three numbers and a queue, and it looks like Clippy. It looks like Clippy from Microsoft, like, waving at you. It looks like Mickey Mouse. And I just used chat GPT. I said make a logo that looks like Clippy, but it's a calculator. And it's so fun to take silly jokey stuff and turn it into real things that actually solve problems. And I find that to be almost like part trolling, part, like, shit eating grin, like, scheming. Like, I love that, like, isn't it would it be hilarious if we made this a thing? And then actually seeing it become a thing, I find to be so exciting.

29:25

I also think that when you're When you have a silly idea, even if it's like a serious idea and you start seeing customers truly like it, that's a very invigorating feeling. It's the best. And we we had this internal

I also think that when you're When you have a silly idea, even if it's like a serious idea and you start seeing customers truly like it, that's a very invigorating feeling. It's the best. And we we had this internal

29:39

say we don't say it that much. We've we I I've said it before and we kind of try to feel it, which is that cool wears off, but useful never does.

say we don't say it that much. We've we I I've said it before and we kind of try to feel it, which is that cool wears off, but useful never does.

29:46

And what you've made is something that's useful.

And what you've made is something that's useful.

29:49

And that is one of the most beautiful things I think you can do for humanity is to make something

And that is one of the most beautiful things I think you can do for humanity is to make something

29:51

useful.

useful.

29:55

And and to have fun with it and to screw around and not, like, take it so seriously. This is going back to the thing. Your your grip is loose on this. You know, you're having fun with it. Yeah. Check GPT to make a logo and you're goofing around. The name is just your name, but it's like

And and to have fun with it and to screw around and not, like, take it so seriously. This is going back to the thing. Your your grip is loose on this. You know, you're having fun with it. Yeah. Check GPT to make a logo and you're goofing around. The name is just your name, but it's like

30:08

it's just have some fun. And and it's a reminder that that's what this should always feel like as much as possible.

it's just have some fun. And and it's a reminder that that's what this should always feel like as much as possible.

30:16

It is totally valuable to do hard things. Absolutely. But not everything should be hard. There should be plenty of easy things in your life too, things that flow, things that you have fun doing, things that don't feel hard. You don't need to pile up and collect

It is totally valuable to do hard things. Absolutely. But not everything should be hard. There should be plenty of easy things in your life too, things that flow, things that you have fun doing, things that don't feel hard. You don't need to pile up and collect

30:30

only hard things.

only hard things.

30:32

And so while some of your business ideas might be harder to pull off for other reasons, this one is so lighthearted.

And so while some of your business ideas might be harder to pull off for other reasons, this one is so lighthearted.

30:38

And easy. It's healthy. It's good for you. And you rediscover, like, why you do this sort of stuff. And it's also fun. I think there's something probably I'm guessing. There's something probably in this that, like, you're like, I did this by myself.

And easy. It's healthy. It's good for you. And you rediscover, like, why you do this sort of stuff. And it's also fun. I think there's something probably I'm guessing. There's something probably in this that, like, you're like, I did this by myself.

30:50

Yeah.

Yeah.

30:51

That's, like, the feeling of accomplishment

That's, like, the feeling of accomplishment

30:54

and go, I, you know, I could still I could still do something by myself, like, really by myself.

and go, I, you know, I could still I could still do something by myself, like, really by myself.

30:58

And that's useful is is is very rewarding and and hard to come by. Sometimes when we all think we need to have partners and co founders and teams and stuff to pull things off. Do you and your partner get along, like, beautifully?

And that's useful is is is very rewarding and and hard to come by. Sometimes when we all think we need to have partners and co founders and teams and stuff to pull things off. Do you and your partner get along, like, beautifully?

31:11

We get along really well. We're not, like, work or friends, but we don't see each other very often. We live in the same town, and we don't see each other. I see them once every, I don't know, couple months. We're very good partners.

We get along really well. We're not, like, work or friends, but we don't see each other very often. We live in the same town, and we don't see each other. I see them once every, I don't know, couple months. We're very good partners.

31:23

And we're friendly, but we just don't we don't hang out. Like, our families don't hang out.

And we're friendly, but we just don't we don't hang out. Like, our families don't hang out.

31:27

It's not that we wouldn't enjoy it. We just, like, we just don't. There was, there was a, a study where they looked at, the most common,

It's not that we wouldn't enjoy it. We just, like, we just don't. There was, there was a, a study where they looked at, the most common,

31:35

reasons why couples get divorced.

reasons why couples get divorced.

31:37

The most common reason was contempt,

The most common reason was contempt,

31:39

and the most common the most common reason for, divorce was contempt. The most common reason for staying together was you admired the other person.

and the most common the most common reason for, divorce was contempt. The most common reason for staying together was you admired the other person.

31:46

I hadn't heard that, but it it resonates. So, like, resentment is just bad. And I think a lot of business partners resent each other, actually.

I hadn't heard that, but it it resonates. So, like, resentment is just bad. And I think a lot of business partners resent each other, actually.

31:53

Have you you've been in business with others? I'm assuming. Yeah. I've got, the most I've had bad relationships.

Have you you've been in business with others? I'm assuming. Yeah. I've got, the most I've had bad relationships.

31:59

I I'm currently in a very harmonious relationship with my co founder Joe that I could see lasting a lifetime. What feels different about it? So when we first started together,

I I'm currently in a very harmonious relationship with my co founder Joe that I could see lasting a lifetime. What feels different about it? So when we first started together,

32:09

We, we we we invested in startups together, and we had a great time. And he previously helped me with, my old company, the hustle. I emailed them, and he was like, hey, if you're in New York tomorrow, just stop by the office and we could talk. And I was like, yeah, I'll be there. And I, like, flew out there and, like, hung out with him. And, that's how we became friends. And then we invested in start together. And then I was like, I took, like, a really formal conversation with him. I was like, Joe, I love working with you.

We, we we we invested in startups together, and we had a great time. And he previously helped me with, my old company, the hustle. I emailed them, and he was like, hey, if you're in New York tomorrow, just stop by the office and we could talk. And I was like, yeah, I'll be there. And I, like, flew out there and, like, hung out with him. And, that's how we became friends. And then we invested in start together. And then I was like, I took, like, a really formal conversation with him. I was like, Joe, I love working with you.

32:33

Something I did with my wife early in our relationship when we were, like, thinking like, hey, is this something that we wanna, like, make real and, like, get married and have a family? And

Something I did with my wife early in our relationship when we were, like, thinking like, hey, is this something that we wanna, like, make real and, like, get married and have a family? And

32:43

I sat down with my wife. And I was like, let's just, like, walk through our life values. And, like, what type of life do we wanna have? And let's see if, like, they kind of align. And that's okay things change eventually, but let's just say let's just see if the direction is is is similar. And so I sat down with Joe, and we said, hey, let's just outline, like, what sacrifices

I sat down with my wife. And I was like, let's just, like, walk through our life values. And, like, what type of life do we wanna have? And let's see if, like, they kind of align. And that's okay things change eventually, but let's just say let's just see if the direction is is is similar. And so I sat down with Joe, and we said, hey, let's just outline, like, what sacrifices

32:58

are you willing to make? What sacrifices are you not willing to make? What's the perfect day look like for you? What are you driven by? And,

are you willing to make? What sacrifices are you not willing to make? What's the perfect day look like for you? What are you driven by? And,

33:02

like,

like,

33:06

For example, for me, I was like, you know, I'm driven by ego. Like, I it bothers me that people think I'm not good enough. So, like, I I always wanna prove that I'm, as good as I think I am or I'm driven by money. I was like, I work only forty hours a week. I don't really wanna work more than that.

For example, for me, I was like, you know, I'm driven by ego. Like, I it bothers me that people think I'm not good enough. So, like, I I always wanna prove that I'm, as good as I think I am or I'm driven by money. I was like, I work only forty hours a week. I don't really wanna work more than that.

33:21

I'm not willing to sacrifice traveling.

I'm not willing to sacrifice traveling.

33:24

I'm not I'm not gonna, like, get out of my house often if I have a family, and he, like, named all of his things. And we looked at the all the things and we're like, how much money do you wanna have? How much money do I wanna have? We looked at all of the things. It were like,

I'm not I'm not gonna, like, get out of my house often if I have a family, and he, like, named all of his things. And we looked at the all the things and we're like, how much money do you wanna have? How much money do I wanna have? We looked at all of the things. It were like,

33:37

for everything that is agreed upon. Awesome. For everything that's not agreed upon, do we think that that's, like, a deal breaker? And we they weren't. And we're, like, cool. We, like, did a really good job of being very honest upfront about our wishes, and now it's a much easier to address,

for everything that is agreed upon. Awesome. For everything that's not agreed upon, do we think that that's, like, a deal breaker? And we they weren't. And we're, like, cool. We, like, did a really good job of being very honest upfront about our wishes, and now it's a much easier to address,

33:52

like, any issues we have because it's like, hey, you

like, any issues we have because it's like, hey, you

33:55

he'll be like, hey, we gotta get this done. And I was like, yeah. But I but but he'll be like, but you told me that you don't wanna, like, grind on a Saturday. So I'm not even gonna ask you. It's all good. We we agreed to this. Things like that. And that makes the relationship really nice,

he'll be like, hey, we gotta get this done. And I was like, yeah. But I but but he'll be like, but you told me that you don't wanna, like, grind on a Saturday. So I'm not even gonna ask you. It's all good. We we agreed to this. Things like that. And that makes the relationship really nice,

34:08

is that we,

is that we,

34:10

respect one another, and we had those conversations super early on. Do you feel like,

respect one another, and we had those conversations super early on. Do you feel like,

34:16

the list or the conversations you had about that?

the list or the conversations you had about that?

34:22

Turn out to be true. Like, are those really the things that that that you guys share together or was that sort of what you imagined

Turn out to be true. Like, are those really the things that that that you guys share together or was that sort of what you imagined

34:28

you would share? Yeah. For example, for for the money let's just do the money one. That's a really easy one. We actually shared each other's personal finances with each other.

you would share? Yeah. For example, for for the money let's just do the money one. That's a really easy one. We actually shared each other's personal finances with each other.

34:37

And interesting. Yeah. We were, like, super transparent. We're, like, here's all of our finances.

And interesting. Yeah. We were, like, super transparent. We're, like, here's all of our finances.

34:42

What matter? Like, I would like to go here one day. Where would you like to go? It's like, alright. Well, to go there, we're gonna be, like, let's say that my goal is less than your goal. Let's hit your goal then. And if we need to hit your goal, here's maybe what the numbers would need to look like, and here's what we'd have to make. So, like, that's, you know, is that, like, something we both agree upon? Do you know what I mean? Like, we were very transparent with each other. That's wild. I mean, this is I know you and I were talking on Twitter a little bit about, like, how I'm super uncomfortable talking about money. And you're, like, sharing your personal finances with your founder and kind of it's it's interesting. Wait. You don't do that with your partner. You don't do you don't do that with your partner. Like, well, you guys your guys' finances probably so tied together, but you know They are tied together. I mean, yeah. Basically, all of our, you know, essentially

What matter? Like, I would like to go here one day. Where would you like to go? It's like, alright. Well, to go there, we're gonna be, like, let's say that my goal is less than your goal. Let's hit your goal then. And if we need to hit your goal, here's maybe what the numbers would need to look like, and here's what we'd have to make. So, like, that's, you know, is that, like, something we both agree upon? Do you know what I mean? Like, we were very transparent with each other. That's wild. I mean, this is I know you and I were talking on Twitter a little bit about, like, how I'm super uncomfortable talking about money. And you're, like, sharing your personal finances with your founder and kind of it's it's interesting. Wait. You don't do that with your partner. You don't do you don't do that with your partner. Like, well, you guys your guys' finances probably so tied together, but you know They are tied together. I mean, yeah. Basically, all of our, you know, essentially

35:23

the vast majority of our net worth nor business so we know what our distributions are and all that stuff. But, yeah, we don't I mean, we don't talk about that ever.

the vast majority of our net worth nor business so we know what our distributions are and all that stuff. But, yeah, we don't I mean, we don't talk about that ever.

35:30

But

But

35:32

It's interesting. Like, I also, like, you're midwesterner. I'm a midwesterner. Like, I I feel like

It's interesting. Like, I also, like, you're midwesterner. I'm a midwesterner. Like, I I feel like

35:38

my my thing is, like, don't talk about it. I don't know why, like, it's ingrained in me. Were you were you like that at one point, or did you change? Or I was always open about it because I saw family like that. And I was like, that's so unhelpful for me because you're not telling me, you're not giving me a road map. You're not I don't have anything to strive for because I don't even know what's possible. My father owned a produce brokerage company, which, like, it's like a small business, but they sell, like, let's just say,

my my thing is, like, don't talk about it. I don't know why, like, it's ingrained in me. Were you were you like that at one point, or did you change? Or I was always open about it because I saw family like that. And I was like, that's so unhelpful for me because you're not telling me, you're not giving me a road map. You're not I don't have anything to strive for because I don't even know what's possible. My father owned a produce brokerage company, which, like, it's like a small business, but they sell, like, let's just say,

36:02

over the course of his thirty year, twenty year career, he sold, like, a hundred and fifty million dollars worth of onions. But, like, I'm, like, how much is a lot of money? Is a lot of money, like, fifty grand a year or, like, three hundred thousand dollars a year? Like, I I have no I have no clue about this. And so I and I always regretted that that they weren't open with me. And so I was like, I'm just gonna be open about it. It's interesting. My my folks never talked about money.

over the course of his thirty year, twenty year career, he sold, like, a hundred and fifty million dollars worth of onions. But, like, I'm, like, how much is a lot of money? Is a lot of money, like, fifty grand a year or, like, three hundred thousand dollars a year? Like, I I have no I have no clue about this. And so I and I always regretted that that they weren't open with me. And so I was like, I'm just gonna be open about it. It's interesting. My my folks never talked about money.

36:23

I don't still to this day, don't know if they're

I don't still to this day, don't know if they're

36:27

middle class, wealthy. I don't I don't really know. You're kidding me. Do you really?

middle class, wealthy. I don't I don't really know. You're kidding me. Do you really?

36:31

You have no idea. That's weird. Do you support them? I have supported them. I I gave them a big chunk of money at one point, but,

You have no idea. That's weird. Do you support them? I have supported them. I I gave them a big chunk of money at one point, but,

36:38

they, like, regretfully

they, like, regretfully

36:40

took it. They didn't really want it. Then I don't think they need it, and I think I'm gonna get it back when they passed. Kind of thing. Like, they're not gonna use it, you know?

took it. They didn't really want it. Then I don't think they need it, and I think I'm gonna get it back when they passed. Kind of thing. Like, they're not gonna use it, you know?

36:48

They've always been very frugal. We don't talk about it. My dad was an entrepreneur, worked for himself.

They've always been very frugal. We don't talk about it. My dad was an entrepreneur, worked for himself.

36:54

Like a small business owner. He was a trader. So he's traded stocks on his own. He wasn't a broke I think he started out as a broker for a little bit, but then he was on his own individual investor, basically.

Like a small business owner. He was a trader. So he's traded stocks on his own. He wasn't a broke I think he started out as a broker for a little bit, but then he was on his own individual investor, basically.

37:03

Think he did well for a while. I think he didn't do well for a while. I think, you know, that's that's a tough road in a lot of ways. It wasn't a day trader, but there wasn't anything we couldn't have, but we also didn't strive for anything that we couldn't afford. It it just I don't really know. I've always been careful with it. So I I kind of absorbed that, like, just don't really talk about it. And,

Think he did well for a while. I think he didn't do well for a while. I think, you know, that's that's a tough road in a lot of ways. It wasn't a day trader, but there wasn't anything we couldn't have, but we also didn't strive for anything that we couldn't afford. It it just I don't really know. I've always been careful with it. So I I kind of absorbed that, like, just don't really talk about it. And,

37:21

it didn't limit me though. It's not like

it didn't limit me though. It's not like

37:24

I I just felt like we we were everything was sort of fine is how it felt to me. What are you gonna do with your what are you gonna do with your kids?

I I just felt like we we were everything was sort of fine is how it felt to me. What are you gonna do with your what are you gonna do with your kids?

37:31

I struggle with this.

I struggle with this.

37:33

Like my parents never really talked about it, we we don't talk about it, but

Like my parents never really talked about it, we we don't talk about it, but

37:38

we certainly act differently than I than my parents at growing up. You know,

we certainly act differently than I than my parents at growing up. You know,

37:42

we own a few homes

we own a few homes

37:44

you know,

you know,

37:45

we've a couple nice things. So it's, you know, so it's, like, it it's it's it's kinda obvious that, like, we can afford things.

we've a couple nice things. So it's, you know, so it's, like, it it's it's it's kinda obvious that, like, we can afford things.

37:53

And do things.

And do things.

37:54

But

But

37:55

we just don't we haven't talked about it. I think that's that's an incredibly

we just don't we haven't talked about it. I think that's that's an incredibly

38:00

Midwestern

Midwestern

38:01

and a com incredibly,

and a com incredibly,

38:03

more traditional older set of values.

more traditional older set of values.

38:06

My family had very Midwestern values, and I think a lot of those values are great. Hard work, don't complain.

My family had very Midwestern values, and I think a lot of those values are great. Hard work, don't complain.

38:13

Don't don't make people work for you, like, like, I remember going to, like, a restaurant and, like, we ordered a pizza and they brought us, like, a chicken salad. And I'm, like, we're not gonna deal. We're not gonna inconvenience you. Whatever. Just give me it. Like, like, I'll believe that. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's, like, the attitude. I've never sent a dish back in my life. Not in a million years. Never ever. Never. Whatever. It's fun. And so, like, I actually think some of those values are great. I think there's many other values that are, like, I don't like using this word because it's too loaded, but toxic, bad.

Don't don't make people work for you, like, like, I remember going to, like, a restaurant and, like, we ordered a pizza and they brought us, like, a chicken salad. And I'm, like, we're not gonna deal. We're not gonna inconvenience you. Whatever. Just give me it. Like, like, I'll believe that. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's, like, the attitude. I've never sent a dish back in my life. Not in a million years. Never ever. Never. Whatever. It's fun. And so, like, I actually think some of those values are great. I think there's many other values that are, like, I don't like using this word because it's too loaded, but toxic, bad.

38:42

There are a lot of values that are bad. For example, I think the stoicism

There are a lot of values that are bad. For example, I think the stoicism

38:46

that Midwest tend to have that you definitely have. I think that

that Midwest tend to have that you definitely have. I think that

38:50

it's gotten you to where you wanted to go, in a traditional success,

it's gotten you to where you wanted to go, in a traditional success,

38:54

perspective,

perspective,

38:55

but also, like, not being transparent with certain people. I think

but also, like, not being transparent with certain people. I think

39:00

I just don't want my family to be left wanting more when I'm gone in the sense of, like, I wish that they were more open with me. For example,

I just don't want my family to be left wanting more when I'm gone in the sense of, like, I wish that they were more open with me. For example,

39:07

I've not seen

I've not seen

39:09

photos of my family, really, when they were younger. Or, like, I don't have any your parents, you mean,

photos of my family, really, when they were younger. Or, like, I don't have any your parents, you mean,

39:15

Yeah. My parents. When my parents were young, I'm like, and I don't even know

Yeah. My parents. When my parents were young, I'm like, and I don't even know

39:19

their grandparents'

their grandparents'

39:20

name. I don't know. I had to do twenty three of me because I'm like, when I asked them what my heritage was, they would just go, we're white. I'm like, yes. Yeah. Okay. But what flavor? Like, come on. I need some more. And so or or I had to do ancestry dot com in order to understand, like, who my grandparents were. Like, what are you guys hiding? And I turns out I found out that and uncle is actually, my grandmother was married previously. And I'm like, why don't you guys tell me this? And they're like, oh, we didn't wanna bring it up. You know, like, little things, like, little things like that. And I'm like, that's weird. Just, like, just discuss it. It's just just tell me. Yeah. Right. That's weird.

name. I don't know. I had to do twenty three of me because I'm like, when I asked them what my heritage was, they would just go, we're white. I'm like, yes. Yeah. Okay. But what flavor? Like, come on. I need some more. And so or or I had to do ancestry dot com in order to understand, like, who my grandparents were. Like, what are you guys hiding? And I turns out I found out that and uncle is actually, my grandmother was married previously. And I'm like, why don't you guys tell me this? And they're like, oh, we didn't wanna bring it up. You know, like, little things, like, little things like that. And I'm like, that's weird. Just, like, just discuss it. It's just just tell me. Yeah. Right. That's weird.

39:52

So, anyway, I think that is actually bad though. And I pray that I don't fall into that. Into that trap. And so that's why with my family, I've been overly transparent with a lot of things. And I just think that that, like, lightens lightens things up a little bit.

So, anyway, I think that is actually bad though. And I pray that I don't fall into that. Into that trap. And so that's why with my family, I've been overly transparent with a lot of things. And I just think that that, like, lightens lightens things up a little bit.

40:06

I I admire that actually. And and this is something I actually also admire about David.

I I admire that actually. And and this is something I actually also admire about David.

40:13

I'm sure you wouldn't mind me telling you this. The David used to when we were in Chicago, when we had an office. He used to drive to work in, like, incredibly fancy cars. Yeah. And my Midwestern sensibilities, like, dude,

I'm sure you wouldn't mind me telling you this. The David used to when we were in Chicago, when we had an office. He used to drive to work in, like, incredibly fancy cars. Yeah. And my Midwestern sensibilities, like, dude,

40:25

Don't do that.

Don't do that.

40:26

He's like, why not? Mike,

He's like, why not? Mike,

40:29

my sense was like, it just it sends a weird message. And he's like, he's like,

my sense was like, it just it sends a weird message. And he's like, he's like,

40:34

what's the message? I mean, everyone knows, like, everyone here who works, like, they know we're doing well. Like, why why would I hide that from you? I agree with you on that one by the way. And and I I I it's so funny because he's right, I think. Have you seen a big lebowski? He goes, you're not wrong, dude. You're just an asshole.

what's the message? I mean, everyone knows, like, everyone here who works, like, they know we're doing well. Like, why why would I hide that from you? I agree with you on that one by the way. And and I I I it's so funny because he's right, I think. Have you seen a big lebowski? He goes, you're not wrong, dude. You're just an asshole.

40:52

So, like, in my mind, I'm, like, I but I still

So, like, in my mind, I'm, like, I but I still

40:55

struggle with it just because of how I was raised and how I was brought up and

struggle with it just because of how I was raised and how I was brought up and

41:00

and and and and the imaginative messages. Like, the whole point is, like, I'm imagining that everyone's looking at that and going, what an asshole? What it's like Most people probably don't care. They don't care. They know this. They know the score. They're fine with it. And if they're not, that's their prob. Like, David's point is like, If they have a problem with me driving a nice car, that's their problem. It's not my problem. Like, I've earned this. I enjoy this car. I buy this car because I I like the car. I'm not gonna hide the car. And he's he's right.

and and and and the imaginative messages. Like, the whole point is, like, I'm imagining that everyone's looking at that and going, what an asshole? What it's like Most people probably don't care. They don't care. They know this. They know the score. They're fine with it. And if they're not, that's their prob. Like, David's point is like, If they have a problem with me driving a nice car, that's their problem. It's not my problem. Like, I've earned this. I enjoy this car. I buy this car because I I like the car. I'm not gonna hide the car. And he's he's right.

41:24

But I I just have a hard time with it still, not anymore with with him. This is, like, way back in the early, early years.

But I I just have a hard time with it still, not anymore with with him. This is, like, way back in the early, early years.

41:31

But but it still is something that's in there. There's a residual, like, struggle with that degree of honesty around money in

But but it still is something that's in there. There's a residual, like, struggle with that degree of honesty around money in

41:41

similar way that people like, you know, in America, like, who'd you vote for? Like, I don't talk about what I voted. Same. Chris Rock has a great bit on that. It's it's so funny.

similar way that people like, you know, in America, like, who'd you vote for? Like, I don't talk about what I voted. Same. Chris Rock has a great bit on that. It's it's so funny.

41:48

Like, when I see someone with a with a political bumper sticker on their car, I'm like, you're insane.

Like, when I see someone with a with a political bumper sticker on their car, I'm like, you're insane.

41:53

You're you're a crazy person. Yeah. And they're probably like, why? I like this guy. I like that guy. I like hers. Like, what why am I have to watch to hide my point of view? And they're right too. You know? So Deep down, your point of view is healthier. I still have a hard time with it. Not I and that's probably my problem where maybe it's I don't really know. I don't really know. It's very interesting. Do you wanna change or do not care? Well, I think the truth is my kids have a or at least my son who's older. My daughter's five. She doesn't recognizing any of the stuff. Yeah. But my son does, and my son's really into, like

You're you're a crazy person. Yeah. And they're probably like, why? I like this guy. I like that guy. I like hers. Like, what why am I have to watch to hide my point of view? And they're right too. You know? So Deep down, your point of view is healthier. I still have a hard time with it. Not I and that's probably my problem where maybe it's I don't really know. I don't really know. It's very interesting. Do you wanna change or do not care? Well, I think the truth is my kids have a or at least my son who's older. My daughter's five. She doesn't recognizing any of the stuff. Yeah. But my son does, and my son's really into, like

42:24

it seems to be into expensive things.

it seems to be into expensive things.

42:26

He, like, has this craving for expensive things. So, I mean, he he's gotta know what's going on to some degree. He's not an idiot.

He, like, has this craving for expensive things. So, I mean, he he's gotta know what's going on to some degree. He's not an idiot.

42:34

Do I wanna sit him down and go, Hey, son. We've got this, and we've got that. And, like, I that isn't how I would handle it. It'd be more like I worked hard Here's what we have. We have some things. We're gonna enjoy these things. We share these things with friends. This is not just our stuff.

Do I wanna sit him down and go, Hey, son. We've got this, and we've got that. And, like, I that isn't how I would handle it. It'd be more like I worked hard Here's what we have. We have some things. We're gonna enjoy these things. We share these things with friends. This is not just our stuff.

42:49

And that's kinda how how I how I treat, for example,

And that's kinda how how I how I treat, for example,

42:52

The the house thing, when I renovate a nice old house, and I and I make it better, like, it's our house, but it's also all of our friend's house. They free people are free to stay there as much as they want, visit as much as they want. I have this property in Wisconsin,

The the house thing, when I renovate a nice old house, and I and I make it better, like, it's our house, but it's also all of our friend's house. They free people are free to stay there as much as they want, visit as much as they want. I have this property in Wisconsin,

43:05

this old farm house,

this old farm house,

43:07

a hundred sixty acres. It's a beautiful piece of land. I've been working on it for years.

a hundred sixty acres. It's a beautiful piece of land. I've been working on it for years.

43:11

My friends use it more than I use it. I don't use it anymore. I am not even around there. My friends can just go up there whenever they want and use it. So it's it's about, like, we're fortunate

My friends use it more than I use it. I don't use it anymore. I am not even around there. My friends can just go up there whenever they want and use it. So it's it's about, like, we're fortunate

43:19

clearly fortunate and lucky, and a big part of this is you wanna share these things. This there's there's you're not fortunate if you hoard the things.

clearly fortunate and lucky, and a big part of this is you wanna share these things. This there's there's you're not fortunate if you hoard the things.

43:27

Then there's something I think kinda wrong about it in my point of view. So share as much as you can, share this experience with other people. And, and, and we're fortunate. You know, that's kind of how I left it at this point. I don't know. We'll see. Oh, the the the thing that I tell my, friends and family,

Then there's something I think kinda wrong about it in my point of view. So share as much as you can, share this experience with other people. And, and, and we're fortunate. You know, that's kind of how I left it at this point. I don't know. We'll see. Oh, the the the thing that I tell my, friends and family,

43:43

is I try to let them know I don't I and and this is something that I couldn't grasp earlier on in my career. I refused to admit this one thing, which was luck

is I try to let them know I don't I and and this is something that I couldn't grasp earlier on in my career. I refused to admit this one thing, which was luck

43:53

is real, and it has played such an important part of any type of financial

is real, and it has played such an important part of any type of financial

44:01

like, just meeting the woman who you spend your life with, like, just the fact that we are in the same place at the same time, luck, is such a bigger component than I ever would have been willing to admit years ago. And I think and I think that what I'll explain to my children is like, look,

like, just meeting the woman who you spend your life with, like, just the fact that we are in the same place at the same time, luck, is such a bigger component than I ever would have been willing to admit years ago. And I think and I think that what I'll explain to my children is like, look,

44:17

I worked hard, but I frankly didn't work harder than many other people.

I worked hard, but I frankly didn't work harder than many other people.

44:21

Right. I'm smart, but I'm not that much smarter if at all than the average person. The truth is is that I worked hard. I had a skill,

Right. I'm smart, but I'm not that much smarter if at all than the average person. The truth is is that I worked hard. I had a skill,

44:30

but I got, like, fifty percent of luck was, like, was, like, part of that, or maybe even more than fifty percent. Luck is such a huge huge component. And I hope that I can, put that on my family to realize that luck was real. It just happened to work out,

but I got, like, fifty percent of luck was, like, was, like, part of that, or maybe even more than fifty percent. Luck is such a huge huge component. And I hope that I can, put that on my family to realize that luck was real. It just happened to work out,

44:45

because some timing thing worked out. Like, let's say you started a business and you surge during COVID. You're like, dude, I just kicked ass because something I had nothing, which I did. Our business killed it during COVID. I'm like, I didn't know that was gonna happen. That was just total luck. Or you know what I mean? Like, things like that. It's it's absolutely real. I need and I hope my family will understand that. A hundred percent with you and I think it's way more than fifty percent. I mean, all the way back to you didn't choose your parents. You didn't choose anything. Right?

because some timing thing worked out. Like, let's say you started a business and you surge during COVID. You're like, dude, I just kicked ass because something I had nothing, which I did. Our business killed it during COVID. I'm like, I didn't know that was gonna happen. That was just total luck. Or you know what I mean? Like, things like that. It's it's absolutely real. I need and I hope my family will understand that. A hundred percent with you and I think it's way more than fifty percent. I mean, all the way back to you didn't choose your parents. You didn't choose anything. Right?

45:11

You didn't choose your mind.

You didn't choose your mind.

45:14

How'd you become the kind of person who is the way you are? Like, there's a million inputs, a billion inputs that you don't know about all the things.

How'd you become the kind of person who is the way you are? Like, there's a million inputs, a billion inputs that you don't know about all the things.

45:22

What is it I don't

What is it I don't

45:24

regrets too strong a word, but one of the things I regret most in my career is

regrets too strong a word, but one of the things I regret most in my career is

45:29

Getting on stage at startup school. So this is like, y Combinator startup school years ago. I forget when I was invited to speak. I was only invited once because I was pretty anti raising money. Yeah. I was gonna say I thought I thought you're, like, the opposite of their ethos. I I was, but, Paul was kind enough to ask me to come up on stage and and give a talk. But you and Paul seem quite similar, to be honest.

Getting on stage at startup school. So this is like, y Combinator startup school years ago. I forget when I was invited to speak. I was only invited once because I was pretty anti raising money. Yeah. I was gonna say I thought I thought you're, like, the opposite of their ethos. I I was, but, Paul was kind enough to ask me to come up on stage and and give a talk. But you and Paul seem quite similar, to be honest.

45:52

Well, I appreciate that. I mean, I I have a lot of admiration for his ability to to put ideas together and and think things through and what he's built.

Well, I appreciate that. I mean, I I have a lot of admiration for his ability to to put ideas together and and think things through and what he's built.

46:00

But he invited me to stage, and there was a question from the audience about luck. Someone's like, do you believe in luck? I'm like, hell no? I don't believe in luck. Wow. Like, and I was such a prick How were you? Early at mid twenties, mid twenties, I think it was. Wow.

But he invited me to stage, and there was a question from the audience about luck. Someone's like, do you believe in luck? I'm like, hell no? I don't believe in luck. Wow. Like, and I was such a prick How were you? Early at mid twenties, mid twenties, I think it was. Wow.

46:14

And I was just such a prick, but a young punk prick, you know, kinda like

And I was just such a prick, but a young punk prick, you know, kinda like

46:20

and

and

46:21

and it's so embarrassing. But, you know, like, a lot of things are. You look back on, like, poetry. You wrote in college, like, oh my god. I wrote that or whatever. Like, whatever it is. You know, and and and, you know, it's like you just realized, like, that's part of growing up is is

and it's so embarrassing. But, you know, like, a lot of things are. You look back on, like, poetry. You wrote in college, like, oh my god. I wrote that or whatever. Like, whatever it is. You know, and and and, you know, it's like you just realized, like, that's part of growing up is is

46:34

is totally misunderstanding

is totally misunderstanding

46:36

the world

the world

46:37

and your position in it. And then hopefully,

and your position in it. And then hopefully,

46:41

hopefully,

hopefully,

46:43

you get to the place in your in in your in your world where you're you develop a bit more and you have some self reflection and you can call yourself out of the bullshit. That that you that you thought. But also, like, that's who you were at the time, and that's that's that. Last thing I wanted to ask you about was this staying off versus staying up. You said, imagine all all the things you felt you were falling behind on if you didn't learn about them last year. Would it really have mattered if you started today instead?

you get to the place in your in in your in your world where you're you develop a bit more and you have some self reflection and you can call yourself out of the bullshit. That that you that you thought. But also, like, that's who you were at the time, and that's that's that. Last thing I wanted to ask you about was this staying off versus staying up. You said, imagine all all the things you felt you were falling behind on if you didn't learn about them last year. Would it really have mattered if you started today instead?

47:09

Watch out for the trap of must know now. What's that mean?

Watch out for the trap of must know now. What's that mean?

47:13

Right now, this is like in the AI

Right now, this is like in the AI

47:15

world we're in right now.

world we're in right now.

47:17

Every once in a while, like, in my four u, feed and Twitter. It's like, Ten things. You gotta know, or you're falling behind. It's like, you it this there's just like this everyone's falling behind. Meanwhile, this thing is brand new and moving fast with any human can can pay attention. Like,

Every once in a while, like, in my four u, feed and Twitter. It's like, Ten things. You gotta know, or you're falling behind. It's like, you it this there's just like this everyone's falling behind. Meanwhile, this thing is brand new and moving fast with any human can can pay attention. Like,

47:32

I just keep seeing these stories about, like, if you don't know this and they're doing that, and if you're not on top of this, like, no. Probably doesn't matter that much. And all the things that if you would've read that feed a year ago that you were supposed to know, it it wouldn't have mattered that much if you didn't.

I just keep seeing these stories about, like, if you don't know this and they're doing that, and if you're not on top of this, like, no. Probably doesn't matter that much. And all the things that if you would've read that feed a year ago that you were supposed to know, it it wouldn't have mattered that much if you didn't.

47:46

Most things, some things would be handy to know, but, like, it probably wouldn't matter that much if you started now instead or waited a year in some cases.

Most things, some things would be handy to know, but, like, it probably wouldn't matter that much if you started now instead or waited a year in some cases.

47:54

One of the things I was doing for a while, I'm not doing it anymore, but I should go back to doing it again. This is actually easier to do during the pandemic.

One of the things I was doing for a while, I'm not doing it anymore, but I should go back to doing it again. This is actually easier to do during the pandemic.

48:01

Was to go back,

Was to go back,

48:03

and so so today is is is May twenty second twenty twenty four. It's to go back and all the podcasts I listened to, and listened to May twenty second two thousand twenty three. So listen to podcasts that are year old. And during the pandemic, it was great because you hear all these experts talking about this and talking about that, and everyone's so certain of everything. And you go back and listen to me, like, man, we are so wrong about so many things and so many of the things we were worried about never happened anyway in this political issue and that political issue, if this guy gets in office, this is gonna happen. If they get in the office, this is gonna happen, turns out very, very few things actually happened.

and so so today is is is May twenty second twenty twenty four. It's to go back and all the podcasts I listened to, and listened to May twenty second two thousand twenty three. So listen to podcasts that are year old. And during the pandemic, it was great because you hear all these experts talking about this and talking about that, and everyone's so certain of everything. And you go back and listen to me, like, man, we are so wrong about so many things and so many of the things we were worried about never happened anyway in this political issue and that political issue, if this guy gets in office, this is gonna happen. If they get in the office, this is gonna happen, turns out very, very few things actually happened.

48:38

And it's really a nice exercise to go back and listen to old podcasts.

And it's really a nice exercise to go back and listen to old podcasts.

48:42

And old interviews of substance and realized that, like, there's some stuff that was right, some stuff that was wrong, but man, the the sense of urgency

And old interviews of substance and realized that, like, there's some stuff that was right, some stuff that was wrong, but man, the the sense of urgency

48:50

in these podcasts

in these podcasts

48:52

is is so misplaced

is is so misplaced

48:54

because most things don't need to happen right now. You don't need to be up on this right now, and you shouldn't feel bad about not being on the cutting edge of x, y, or z, especially an edge that is recutting itself and re sharpening itself every few months. So

because most things don't need to happen right now. You don't need to be up on this right now, and you shouldn't feel bad about not being on the cutting edge of x, y, or z, especially an edge that is recutting itself and re sharpening itself every few months. So

49:10

that's what I'm saying. I I try to stay a bit out of things. I don't wanna be on the edge of things. I'd like to let things settle in a little bit more before I really start to dig in. Do you read any biographies?

that's what I'm saying. I I try to stay a bit out of things. I don't wanna be on the edge of things. I'd like to let things settle in a little bit more before I really start to dig in. Do you read any biographies?

49:19

A few. I've read a few.

A few. I've read a few.

49:22

I I really

I I really

49:24

love the idea of biographies. I have a hard time reading long books.

love the idea of biographies. I have a hard time reading long books.

49:28

Yeah. And most categories tend to be very long. I've got, like, a limit where it's, like, five hundred pages or less.

Yeah. And most categories tend to be very long. I've got, like, a limit where it's, like, five hundred pages or less.

49:34

But I'll I'll do long about I'll do a long one every once in a while, but I and I read a fair bit, not because I'm in a competition. It's just an hour a night is typically a book a week. And,

But I'll I'll do long about I'll do a long one every once in a while, but I and I read a fair bit, not because I'm in a competition. It's just an hour a night is typically a book a week. And,

49:45

I read a lot of biographies. I real I like business biographies. I love history. So, like,

I read a lot of biographies. I real I like business biographies. I love history. So, like,

49:50

a lot of the World War two leaders,

a lot of the World War two leaders,

49:52

a lot of the American, like, titans of industry,

a lot of the American, like, titans of industry,

49:55

a lot of just random people. I I love biographies, and I have this process of what I do.

a lot of just random people. I I love biographies, and I have this process of what I do.

50:01

I've got this,

I've got this,

50:02

spreadsheet where if I I only read on Kindle and anytime I see something interesting, I highlight it. And at the end of the book, I'll, like, insert, I'll create a timeline.

spreadsheet where if I I only read on Kindle and anytime I see something interesting, I highlight it. And at the end of the book, I'll, like, insert, I'll create a timeline.

50:11

Here's where they're born, here's where they,

Here's where they're born, here's where they,

50:14

died. And then anything that I highlighted that happened in this year, that happened in this year. And then what I do is I go to this website called newspapers

died. And then anything that I highlighted that happened in this year, that happened in this year. And then what I do is I go to this website called newspapers

50:23

dot com newspapers dot com has archive pretty much every newspaper ever back until back until, like, the sixteen hundreds.

dot com newspapers dot com has archive pretty much every newspaper ever back until back until, like, the sixteen hundreds.

50:31

And what I like to do is let's say, I read this biography about, Ted Turner, Ted Turner, Sky starts CNN. He was a fascinating guy to me. Or Let's actually just explain an owner in the United States. Biggestly. One yeah. And he's done a lot of fascinating things.

And what I like to do is let's say, I read this biography about, Ted Turner, Ted Turner, Sky starts CNN. He was a fascinating guy to me. Or Let's actually just explain an owner in the United States. Biggestly. One yeah. And he's done a lot of fascinating things.

50:44

And the reason why I use newspapers dot com is I like to go back to my Kindle and my spreadsheet, and I see, alright, in this year, he decided that he wanted to buy land.

And the reason why I use newspapers dot com is I like to go back to my Kindle and my spreadsheet, and I see, alright, in this year, he decided that he wanted to buy land.

50:53

You know, I'm gonna go read a newspaper article that wrote about him during that period, and I wanna see what he said about his interests, why he's doing it, And, like, did he say, like, for example,

You know, I'm gonna go read a newspaper article that wrote about him during that period, and I wanna see what he said about his interests, why he's doing it, And, like, did he say, like, for example,

51:06

maybe he'll say, like, one day, I hope to own, like,

maybe he'll say, like, one day, I hope to own, like,

51:09

five thousand acres. Turns out he owns millions and millions and millions of acres. And so I like to read what their predictions were as well as what the people were saying about person at the time, so you don't get revisionist history. And what you notice when you do this is there's often times that you'll read,

five thousand acres. Turns out he owns millions and millions and millions of acres. And so I like to read what their predictions were as well as what the people were saying about person at the time, so you don't get revisionist history. And what you notice when you do this is there's often times that you'll read,

51:26

a biography, and you'll think this was obvious that this person was going to do this, or they're ob who wouldn't have predicted that this was gonna happen? And or here's another example.

a biography, and you'll think this was obvious that this person was going to do this, or they're ob who wouldn't have predicted that this was gonna happen? And or here's another example.

51:36

World War two, Churchill Hill was, like, basically, he was, like, the the world's going to end. Like, we are gonna die. The world's over.

World War two, Churchill Hill was, like, basically, he was, like, the the world's going to end. Like, we are gonna die. The world's over.

51:44

We felt that way during COVID. But if you read a lot of history, there's been many times where we have felt this exact same feeling, and we had this exact same prediction. You know, I remember I I recently read JFK's book and, like, with the Cuban missile crisis, it was, like, the world's over. And I go into newspaper dot com, and I'll go and read what the predictions are. And what you notice is that

We felt that way during COVID. But if you read a lot of history, there's been many times where we have felt this exact same feeling, and we had this exact same prediction. You know, I remember I I recently read JFK's book and, like, with the Cuban missile crisis, it was, like, the world's over. And I go into newspaper dot com, and I'll go and read what the predictions are. And what you notice is that

52:05

people are wrong more than they're right. Is this And so what you're saying about things moving too fast, I I I I read Henry Ford's biography about cars,

people are wrong more than they're right. Is this And so what you're saying about things moving too fast, I I I I read Henry Ford's biography about cars,

52:13

or a Henry Ford biography. And I so I got interested in cars, and I went and read, like, what people were saying in nineteen twelve when the model t was coming out. And, like, the predictions are just ridiculous.

or a Henry Ford biography. And I so I got interested in cars, and I went and read, like, what people were saying in nineteen twelve when the model t was coming out. And, like, the predictions are just ridiculous.

52:23

And it's so funny that you don't to to reiterate at your point, you don't actually have to be that fast to pounce on certain things.

And it's so funny that you don't to to reiterate at your point, you don't actually have to be that fast to pounce on certain things.

52:32

It's really quite fascinating. And to put this in perspective, the Ford came out with the model t. I think in nineteen twelve or nineteen sixteen,

It's really quite fascinating. And to put this in perspective, the Ford came out with the model t. I think in nineteen twelve or nineteen sixteen,

52:39

So the internet right now is something like thirty years old.

So the internet right now is something like thirty years old.

52:44

So that is basically, like, how old would you say the internet is? Or, like, the modern day internet? The the the commercial internet. Yeah. Like, ninety five, ninety six is when, like, you know, really Mozilla or Netscape kinda came out and really kinda made it happen. It's basically basically It's it's older than that because it's a research thing. But, yeah, commercially. Yeah. Thirty five years, let's say. It's basically like a car company in nineteen forty.

So that is basically, like, how old would you say the internet is? Or, like, the modern day internet? The the the commercial internet. Yeah. Like, ninety five, ninety six is when, like, you know, really Mozilla or Netscape kinda came out and really kinda made it happen. It's basically basically It's it's older than that because it's a research thing. But, yeah, commercially. Yeah. Thirty five years, let's say. It's basically like a car company in nineteen forty.

53:06

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so what's really fascinating is to, like, read all these biographies and use newspaper dot com. It's one of my favorite things to to use and to see what are interesting

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so what's really fascinating is to, like, read all these biographies and use newspaper dot com. It's one of my favorite things to to use and to see what are interesting

53:16

predictions and how have they come true because I already know the answer, but I wanna know what were they saying at the time. And so that's my version of what you do with two thousand twenty three's podcasts.

predictions and how have they come true because I already know the answer, but I wanna know what were they saying at the time. And so that's my version of what you do with two thousand twenty three's podcasts.

53:26

I love that. That's I I didn't know that site existed too. That that's fascinating. It there's,

I love that. That's I I didn't know that site existed too. That that's fascinating. It there's,

53:32

an ex account I follow-up with, like, Pecima archive or something like that. I love that one. It's a great it's a great one to follow. And just, you know, like

an ex account I follow-up with, like, Pecima archive or something like that. I love that one. It's a great it's a great one to follow. And just, you know, like

53:39

and the thing is is the thing that's a little bit interesting about right now, the time we're in is that

and the thing is is the thing that's a little bit interesting about right now, the time we're in is that

53:44

There's so many people saying so many things,

There's so many people saying so many things,

53:47

all wearing the expert uniform. Some people are experts, like, lit there are experts in this world, but many people act, replay, as one based on just their ability to communicate on platforms,

all wearing the expert uniform. Some people are experts, like, lit there are experts in this world, but many people act, replay, as one based on just their ability to communicate on platforms,

53:59

And,

And,

54:00

there's just so much,

there's just so much,

54:03

certainty,

certainty,

54:04

layered into their suggestions and requirements

layered into their suggestions and requirements

54:07

and requests and demands.

and requests and demands.

54:09

But it's just it's very healthy to go. Every time you see that, every time there's, like, a, you must I I always back up and go, probably not. Like, the more forward they are about being certain and right about something,

But it's just it's very healthy to go. Every time you see that, every time there's, like, a, you must I I always back up and go, probably not. Like, the more forward they are about being certain and right about something,

54:21

sort of the less

sort of the less

54:22

interested I am in the short term. And I'd rather just sort of stand back and see how plays out. And at the end of the day,

interested I am in the short term. And I'd rather just sort of stand back and see how plays out. And at the end of the day,

54:30

you know, there's there's plenty of opportunity in a lot of different areas. You don't need to just pounce on everything as it's happening.

you know, there's there's plenty of opportunity in a lot of different areas. You don't need to just pounce on everything as it's happening.

54:36

And in many cases,

And in many cases,

54:37

it's it's best to wait a little bit and see how things settle out. I mean, I just think about, like, with AI, like, all the companies that began to implement AI stuff early on,

it's it's best to wait a little bit and see how things settle out. I mean, I just think about, like, with AI, like, all the companies that began to implement AI stuff early on,

54:45

and and then open AI is just like wipe them out in a lot of ways for a lot of different reasons. And when you build on other people's platforms, you're very, very much,

and and then open AI is just like wipe them out in a lot of ways for a lot of different reasons. And when you build on other people's platforms, you're very, very much,

54:52

at risk of things changing, tectonic plates shifting very quickly.

at risk of things changing, tectonic plates shifting very quickly.

54:56

You might have been better off waiting and seeing how things shake out. So anyway, who knows? I wanted you to come on here

You might have been better off waiting and seeing how things shake out. So anyway, who knows? I wanted you to come on here

55:02

and

and

55:03

just talk because

just talk because

55:05

I've read your work for years. I've been a fan of yours for years,

I've read your work for years. I've been a fan of yours for years,

55:10

I've seen you do a bunch of interviews, and I just wanted someone told me, this guy named Dylan just said, you should just ask people what's interesting to them. And that's what I wanted to do, with you because you're an interesting person, and I respect your opinion on so many things. And so I appreciate you coming on and just riffing with me and just tell me what's intriguing to you. And it's been a lot of it's been very valuable for me just to see how you think and what

I've seen you do a bunch of interviews, and I just wanted someone told me, this guy named Dylan just said, you should just ask people what's interesting to them. And that's what I wanted to do, with you because you're an interesting person, and I respect your opinion on so many things. And so I appreciate you coming on and just riffing with me and just tell me what's intriguing to you. And it's been a lot of it's been very valuable for me just to see how you think and what

55:32

what grabs your attention? Well, thanks for the invitation. It was it was really fun. And and as I mentioned earlier, I just I I I wanna

what grabs your attention? Well, thanks for the invitation. It was it was really fun. And and as I mentioned earlier, I just I I I wanna

55:39

make useful things, and hopefully this is a useful conversation for for us and for anyone listening. So thanks thanks for inviting me in. It was a real pleasure. Alright. That's the pod.

make useful things, and hopefully this is a useful conversation for for us and for anyone listening. So thanks thanks for inviting me in. It was a real pleasure. Alright. That's the pod.

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