00:00

I love how even though I tried to pick a non nerdy data one, it actually underneath the hood was a a a nerdy data one. You're like the you're a data hammer and the whole world is just little males that you're just trying to hammer with your, you know, like But dude, this is the best business there is. In the data, like, a vacuum. You're the data and that's just taking in this data from everywhere you can.

I love how even though I tried to pick a non nerdy data one, it actually underneath the hood was a a a nerdy data one. You're like the you're a data hammer and the whole world is just little males that you're just trying to hammer with your, you know, like But dude, this is the best business there is. In the data, like, a vacuum. You're the data and that's just taking in this data from everywhere you can.

00:29

Man founders are like a lot of times not good at explaining what they do to idiots.

Man founders are like a lot of times not good at explaining what they do to idiots.

00:34

So

So

00:35

can I do it? Can I so, alright? I'm gonna make you look cool. I'm gonna be your wig, man. Alright. Here we go.

can I do it? Can I so, alright? I'm gonna make you look cool. I'm gonna be your wig, man. Alright. Here we go.

00:41

So you run a I don't know if you call it soft ware or a data business, but people pay subscriptions.

So you run a I don't know if you call it soft ware or a data business, but people pay subscriptions.

00:47

And, your your company CBN sites, you're now getting close to a hundred million a year in revenue, which is like a huge accomplishment, hundreds of employees as well.

And, your your company CBN sites, you're now getting close to a hundred million a year in revenue, which is like a huge accomplishment, hundreds of employees as well.

00:56

And

And

00:57

basically and this is the part that's kind of hard to understand for someone like Sean and I because we run, like, really, really huge companies. But basically, when a company that has a thousand people have to decide what software they have to buy, like, let's say it's just like some customer support software or payroll or something. They need to do tons and tons of research to make sure that the business that they're going to pick, the vendor they're going to pick like, will stay in business or will be around for ten or twenty years, things like that, as well as a bunch of other information, and you have crawled through what you call dirty data. So all this data out there exists, but you just put it in a bit of bits of software that make it really easy to digest and understand. So a person can make a right in smart decision. And they pay you, like, thirty year, fifty or a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to access all that. Is that right? Sounds about right. Yeah. And more importantly,

basically and this is the part that's kind of hard to understand for someone like Sean and I because we run, like, really, really huge companies. But basically, when a company that has a thousand people have to decide what software they have to buy, like, let's say it's just like some customer support software or payroll or something. They need to do tons and tons of research to make sure that the business that they're going to pick, the vendor they're going to pick like, will stay in business or will be around for ten or twenty years, things like that, as well as a bunch of other information, and you have crawled through what you call dirty data. So all this data out there exists, but you just put it in a bit of bits of software that make it really easy to digest and understand. So a person can make a right in smart decision. And they pay you, like, thirty year, fifty or a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to access all that. Is that right? Sounds about right. Yeah. And more importantly,

01:44

fan of the show and prolific idea guy before this episode before we did this episode, he sent over a Google sheet that is

fan of the show and prolific idea guy before this episode before we did this episode, he sent over a Google sheet that is

01:51

seventy seven rows

seventy seven rows

01:54

of

of

01:55

random startup ideas, which just tells me you're you you are you're one of us. And,

random startup ideas, which just tells me you're you you are you're one of us. And,

02:01

So this is great. You made our job really easy. We have a bunch of ideas we can go through.

So this is great. You made our job really easy. We have a bunch of ideas we can go through.

02:05

There's a few kind of interesting CB Insight stories that you've logged it out in the past. I wanna talk about. Well, let's do those at the end because,

There's a few kind of interesting CB Insight stories that you've logged it out in the past. I wanna talk about. Well, let's do those at the end because,

02:12

I think the ideas are gonna be a lot more fun. Sam,

I think the ideas are gonna be a lot more fun. Sam,

02:16

Sean, one of the reasons why he's fun, you said that he's one of us because the idea thing, that's true. He's also fun because even though he comes off like this, like, polite guy who's, like,

Sean, one of the reasons why he's fun, you said that he's one of us because the idea thing, that's true. He's also fun because even though he comes off like this, like, polite guy who's, like,

02:26

introverted.

introverted.

02:28

He's a shithead.

He's a shithead.

02:29

Not as a shithead. His Twitter is hilarious.

Not as a shithead. His Twitter is hilarious.

02:32

He always he writes this famous newsletter to, like, five hundred and people now, and he signs it with, like, I love you. And in his Twitter, the bio says, please buy a CB Insights subscription. I owe people money. And, like, he always does, like, he he kinda pokes the bear a bunch in in his stuff. So he's got the he's got a really cool attitude.

He always he writes this famous newsletter to, like, five hundred and people now, and he signs it with, like, I love you. And in his Twitter, the bio says, please buy a CB Insights subscription. I owe people money. And, like, he always does, like, he he kinda pokes the bear a bunch in in his stuff. So he's got the he's got a really cool attitude.

02:49

But, hopefully, we'll get that out of you. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. My my kids were, my kids were excited that you called me a shithead, so I appreciate that one.

But, hopefully, we'll get that out of you. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. My my kids were, my kids were excited that you called me a shithead, so I appreciate that one.

03:00

You're welcome.

You're welcome.

03:03

Here we go. Sam, you put your favorites on the sheet. I put my favorites. What's in need to be is we have almost no overlap. You, only maybe two out of the ten that you put down there were my favorites. I had completely different ones. I'll tell you why. I say we take turns

Here we go. Sam, you put your favorites on the sheet. I put my favorites. What's in need to be is we have almost no overlap. You, only maybe two out of the ten that you put down there were my favorites. I had completely different ones. I'll tell you why. I say we take turns

03:20

where we say tell us about

where we say tell us about

03:22

blah blah blah. Like, the little the little three set three word tagline, and he gets to pitch it and let's react. And let's try to get through

blah blah blah. Like, the little the little three set three word tagline, and he gets to pitch it and let's react. And let's try to get through

03:29

a bunch of these. So we might go on random changes or drill down, but, like, let's, in general, try to go

a bunch of these. So we might go on random changes or drill down, but, like, let's, in general, try to go

03:35

you know, an inch deep on each one of these for now.

you know, an inch deep on each one of these for now.

03:38

You want me to go first? Yeah. You go. So the reason why I highlight basically, everything I highlighted, so CB insights interest me because basically you're not coming up with any data. You're just organizing data that already exists in really easy to understand ways, and then you're selling it at high fees. And I think that's, like, the greatest business model on earth. And you've listed out a bunch of ideas, including, like, six or seven that were more of these, like, data things. Data.

You want me to go first? Yeah. You go. So the reason why I highlight basically, everything I highlighted, so CB insights interest me because basically you're not coming up with any data. You're just organizing data that already exists in really easy to understand ways, and then you're selling it at high fees. And I think that's, like, the greatest business model on earth. And you've listed out a bunch of ideas, including, like, six or seven that were more of these, like, data things. Data.

04:01

So you had one in there called sawdust data, and you have examples. You're like, you can look at what the government does. Like, the government has all this data. You can make that clear and easier to understand for people.

So you had one in there called sawdust data, and you have examples. You're like, you can look at what the government does. Like, the government has all this data. You can make that clear and easier to understand for people.

04:13

Both the softest day data as well as the, government data products. What do you mean by all that?

Both the softest day data as well as the, government data products. What do you mean by all that?

04:19

Yes. So Sauna's data is

Yes. So Sauna's data is

04:22

people create products, and sometimes

people create products, and sometimes

04:25

the residue of that product is actually really interesting data. Right? And so that's the sawdust from the data. And so it's basically taking that exhaust. And so I'll give you a couple of examples. Right? You have

the residue of that product is actually really interesting data. Right? And so that's the sawdust from the data. And so it's basically taking that exhaust. And so I'll give you a couple of examples. Right? You have

04:36

I'll just and I don't know if these are businesses already, but, you know, Open Table and resi have all this reservation data.

I'll just and I don't know if these are businesses already, but, you know, Open Table and resi have all this reservation data.

04:42

I wonder if you could take that data exhaust and sell it to real estate firms. Right? And they'd be, you know, hey, like reservations are down. This area is not as hot. Maybe this This retail space is gonna be on the market soon because this restaurant looks like a dog. Right? That might be one area. You know, I think I met somebody who has, dog collars, like, like a fitbit for dogs. Right? Phi.

I wonder if you could take that data exhaust and sell it to real estate firms. Right? And they'd be, you know, hey, like reservations are down. This area is not as hot. Maybe this This retail space is gonna be on the market soon because this restaurant looks like a dog. Right? That might be one area. You know, I think I met somebody who has, dog collars, like, like a fitbit for dogs. Right? Phi.

05:05

Yeah. Phi. Right. And so you could take that and probably sell that to pet insurance underwriters. Right? So it's like It's not your core business. It's this residue that comes off of your business that I think you could do interesting things with.

Yeah. Phi. Right. And so you could take that and probably sell that to pet insurance underwriters. Right? So it's like It's not your core business. It's this residue that comes off of your business that I think you could do interesting things with.

05:17

It's another example. Like, procurement management system, so kind of this like esoteric enterprise y thing. But if you have all this spend going through this procurement management system at your company, Could you go and sell that to hedge funds on, like, hey, this company's,

It's another example. Like, procurement management system, so kind of this like esoteric enterprise y thing. But if you have all this spend going through this procurement management system at your company, Could you go and sell that to hedge funds on, like, hey, this company's,

05:31

you know, average contract value is going down or it's getting a lot more seats sold year. Right? And so can you take, again, not your core business? And I don't think companies are really good at monetizing this on their own. So it's basically

you know, average contract value is going down or it's getting a lot more seats sold year. Right? And so can you take, again, not your core business? And I don't think companies are really good at monetizing this on their own. So it's basically

05:44

building this platform that goes to these companies and build these data products off of their sawdust. Does that make sense? With with the the business that Sean and I are and we're in newsletter business.

building this platform that goes to these companies and build these data products off of their sawdust. Does that make sense? With with the the business that Sean and I are and we're in newsletter business.

05:56

Like, people have all these questions, but it's kind of broken down into just a few few things, which is just like figure out what content you can give people that they wanna read every single day, and then figure out how to acquire users for profit profitably

Like, people have all these questions, but it's kind of broken down into just a few few things, which is just like figure out what content you can give people that they wanna read every single day, and then figure out how to acquire users for profit profitably

06:09

And that's basically the that's eighty percent of the business. What's, like, the eighty twenty thing for these, like, data businesses?

And that's basically the that's eighty percent of the business. What's, like, the eighty twenty thing for these, like, data businesses?

06:15

Is there is there or or rather the eighty twenty for making messy data clean data and make it a product that people like.

Is there is there or or rather the eighty twenty for making messy data clean data and make it a product that people like.

06:23

The messy data to clean data thing, that's just, like, you have to have a pain tolerance that's all that is. Right? And so I think this is why this is actually, I think, why CBI has done well is, like, we've had a bunch of Valley companies come in and they wanna splash machine learning on it. And, like, you just have to get into an Excel spreadsheet and clean the data. Like, that's just it. And if you're not willing to do that nasty work, you're kinda dead. I'd say the businesses that work are I think I got my framework is

The messy data to clean data thing, that's just, like, you have to have a pain tolerance that's all that is. Right? And so I think this is why this is actually, I think, why CBI has done well is, like, we've had a bunch of Valley companies come in and they wanna splash machine learning on it. And, like, you just have to get into an Excel spreadsheet and clean the data. Like, that's just it. And if you're not willing to do that nasty work, you're kinda dead. I'd say the businesses that work are I think I got my framework is

06:48

variable skew,

variable skew,

06:50

highly opaque, high consideration. And so I'll I'll break that down. So high consideration means,

highly opaque, high consideration. And so I'll I'll break that down. So high consideration means,

06:55

like, somebody's taking risk or putting a lot of money out there. Right? It's just like, It's got there's some skin in the game. OPEC, meaning it's just hard to find, you know, and I think if you go into Slack groups and people are like, Hey, does anybody know x? That's usually

like, somebody's taking risk or putting a lot of money out there. Right? It's just like, It's got there's some skin in the game. OPEC, meaning it's just hard to find, you know, and I think if you go into Slack groups and people are like, Hey, does anybody know x? That's usually

07:10

an asset class that's like opaque. Right? Does anybody know who a good vendor is for this or a good software provider is for this? And then the last one is variable SKU, which is, like, like, a car is a high consideration software purchase, but it's not really variable. Like, It's got a set of features. You can compare them on a grid. And so the internet's really good for that. I like businesses where, like, the variability of the skew is significant because you can't just put it into a table. You can't, like, an iPhone's an iPhone is an iPhone, but, like, we are we launch yardstick, like, you know, I I don't know, radiology

an asset class that's like opaque. Right? Does anybody know who a good vendor is for this or a good software provider is for this? And then the last one is variable SKU, which is, like, like, a car is a high consideration software purchase, but it's not really variable. Like, It's got a set of features. You can compare them on a grid. And so the internet's really good for that. I like businesses where, like, the variability of the skew is significant because you can't just put it into a table. You can't, like, an iPhone's an iPhone is an iPhone, but, like, we are we launch yardstick, like, you know, I I don't know, radiology

07:43

software that uses, you know, that AI reads radiology images. Like, those are totally different. And so -- Right. That's, like, the framework I use. And so when it meets on those three, I think that's an interesting,

software that uses, you know, that AI reads radiology images. Like, those are totally different. And so -- Right. That's, like, the framework I use. And so when it meets on those three, I think that's an interesting,

07:55

messy, hard business. That's gonna be a lot of in, but, like, you could build a moat around that. Alright, Sean. You wanna do it? Oh, sorry. You had one of your columns. So so so I told you you have seventy seven rows. So those are the different ideas. But then you had some columns. One of them was frame frameworks are are inflections, and that was your that was one of your your things opaque variable you high consideration. The other one you had was tiny but growing niches, like, or, like, inflection. Like, it might be time,

messy, hard business. That's gonna be a lot of in, but, like, you could build a moat around that. Alright, Sean. You wanna do it? Oh, sorry. You had one of your columns. So so so I told you you have seventy seven rows. So those are the different ideas. But then you had some columns. One of them was frame frameworks are are inflections, and that was your that was one of your your things opaque variable you high consideration. The other one you had was tiny but growing niches, like, or, like, inflection. Like, it might be time,

08:23

for that to grow. What is that is that other one that you look for in ideas, and we can give an example here of, like, here. Let me grab one. Like, you did this representation media. So you said extend the rebel Reble girls book for other communities, and then your framework was tiny but growing niches. So talk about that idea and explain it with that framework.

for that to grow. What is that is that other one that you look for in ideas, and we can give an example here of, like, here. Let me grab one. Like, you did this representation media. So you said extend the rebel Reble girls book for other communities, and then your framework was tiny but growing niches. So talk about that idea and explain it with that framework.

08:42

Yeah. So rebel girls, if you're a parent of a daughter, you might be familiar with it. So we bought this book when my daughter was, you know, three, four, And it's just like one or two page stories of, like, famous women in history. So like Amelia Airhart, Marie Cury, Maya Angelo,

Yeah. So rebel girls, if you're a parent of a daughter, you might be familiar with it. So we bought this book when my daughter was, you know, three, four, And it's just like one or two page stories of, like, famous women in history. So like Amelia Airhart, Marie Cury, Maya Angelo,

08:57

And it's great. Like, it's a it's a really kind of inspiring book, really cool artwork.

And it's great. Like, it's a it's a really kind of inspiring book, really cool artwork.

09:02

That book is sold, I think, five point five million copies at like twenty dollars. It's like a hundred ten million dollars. And that's probably dated. Right? But I think there's, like, this idea of, like, what I what I call representation media.

That book is sold, I think, five point five million copies at like twenty dollars. It's like a hundred ten million dollars. And that's probably dated. Right? But I think there's, like, this idea of, like, what I what I call representation media.

09:14

Right? I bet you could extend that to,

Right? I bet you could extend that to,

09:18

I don't know, like,

I don't know, like,

09:19

Hispanic entrepreneurs or, like, autistic scientists. Right? Like, people want

Hispanic entrepreneurs or, like, autistic scientists. Right? Like, people want

09:24

to read about and see examples of success in their communities. And so I think you could extend rebel girls across a bunch of different things. And so that's the I think that niche is growing. Right? Like, people, like, you get these micro communities that actually are pretty large. That would love to read about themselves and receive good representations of themselves.

to read about and see examples of success in their communities. And so I think you could extend rebel girls across a bunch of different things. And so that's the I think that niche is growing. Right? Like, people, like, you get these micro communities that actually are pretty large. That would love to read about themselves and receive good representations of themselves.

09:47

That's a great idea.

That's a great idea.

09:49

I've had the I've had a similar idea because,

I've had the I've had a similar idea because,

09:51

we get gifted some books that are, like,

we get gifted some books that are, like,

09:54

I don't know, like, Hindu religion book or, like, but it was, like, the kids version or like that. It's like the, like and it's like, oh, yeah. If I'm gonna read whatever, you know, Clifford, the big red dog, you know, like, is there is there something that, you know, adds a little bit of something from our culture or religion, like, makes it easy for me as a parent to, like, give them, you know, something I wanna give them. While still being entertaining and accessible. And there's actually just not much that's out there

I don't know, like, Hindu religion book or, like, but it was, like, the kids version or like that. It's like the, like and it's like, oh, yeah. If I'm gonna read whatever, you know, Clifford, the big red dog, you know, like, is there is there something that, you know, adds a little bit of something from our culture or religion, like, makes it easy for me as a parent to, like, give them, you know, something I wanna give them. While still being entertaining and accessible. And there's actually just not much that's out there

10:18

for that. So so I definitely,

for that. So so I definitely,

10:20

think if you added up all those little all those little different issues, that's that could be quite big. Yeah. I mean, I think if you it's kind of on PC. If you found a story,

think if you added up all those little all those little different issues, that's that could be quite big. Yeah. I mean, I think if you it's kind of on PC. If you found a story,

10:30

where the protagonist was, like, a little white kid, like, make a little brown kid, make a little black kid,

where the protagonist was, like, a little white kid, like, make a little brown kid, make a little black kid,

10:37

you know, like, modify the story a bit and, like, that's a winner. Right? Because, like, kids love seeing, like, oh, that kid looks like me. That's dope. Right? And so, like, you're off to the races there. I don't think it's that I nothing's hard. It just takes some work, but yeah. Dude, that's why my that's why my wife loves Kim Kardashian. She's, like, sees them. She's like, oh, hey, look. They got fat asses too.

you know, like, modify the story a bit and, like, that's a winner. Right? Because, like, kids love seeing, like, oh, that kid looks like me. That's dope. Right? And so, like, you're off to the races there. I don't think it's that I nothing's hard. It just takes some work, but yeah. Dude, that's why my that's why my wife loves Kim Kardashian. She's, like, sees them. She's like, oh, hey, look. They got fat asses too.

10:59

Dude, that. Fat a good way, by the way. That's a good way. When I met, the comedian Hassan

Dude, that. Fat a good way, by the way. That's a good way. When I met, the comedian Hassan

11:06

Minhazi, we he he was like doing his live shows, and I had told him. I was like, he asked me something and like, oh, what would you do with, if, with my business, if you were me? And I was like, dude, I would stop this, like, live touring thing that comedians do. Like, this is so painful. You're on the road, like, I don't know, forty weeks out of fifty two in a year. I wouldn't wanna do that. I was like, you gotta create

Minhazi, we he he was like doing his live shows, and I had told him. I was like, he asked me something and like, oh, what would you do with, if, with my business, if you were me? And I was like, dude, I would stop this, like, live touring thing that comedians do. Like, this is so painful. You're on the road, like, I don't know, forty weeks out of fifty two in a year. I wouldn't wanna do that. I was like, you gotta create

11:26

a Broadway show. I was like, create, like, the next Hamilton.

a Broadway show. I was like, create, like, the next Hamilton.

11:30

And then that goes on tour. Right? Turing is a great business, but you just don't wanna be the guy sitting on the stage. I was like, use your creative and comedic genius to do that. That was my my kind of big idea for him. He's alright. What's the show?

And then that goes on tour. Right? Turing is a great business, but you just don't wanna be the guy sitting on the stage. I was like, use your creative and comedic genius to do that. That was my my kind of big idea for him. He's alright. What's the show?

11:41

And I was like, oh, dude. I don't know. Now now I'm out of my my my definitely. And then the next, like, a week later, I just sent him a voice note, and I go

And I was like, oh, dude. I don't know. Now now I'm out of my my my definitely. And then the next, like, a week later, I just sent him a voice note, and I go

11:49

aladdin,

aladdin,

11:51

But but Aladdin's black.

But but Aladdin's black.

11:54

And then he's like, what? And that was my whole voice note. And then he goes,

And then he's like, what? And that was my whole voice note. And then he goes,

11:58

what are you talking about? I go, remember the Broadway show thing? I go, it's a Latin,

what are you talking about? I go, remember the Broadway show thing? I go, it's a Latin,

12:03

but they don't it it's not like Jasmine Can't marry Aladdin because he's like a poor guy. No. No. No. Jasmine can't marry him because he's black. Because, like, you know,

but they don't it it's not like Jasmine Can't marry Aladdin because he's like a poor guy. No. No. No. Jasmine can't marry him because he's black. Because, like, you know,

12:12

this her family doesn't approve. And then he's like, Okay. So it's just he's black instead of poor. And I was like, hey, look, when you say it that way, it doesn't sound that good, but, like, I'm telling you there's something to this idea of he overcomes

this her family doesn't approve. And then he's like, Okay. So it's just he's black instead of poor. And I was like, hey, look, when you say it that way, it doesn't sound that good, but, like, I'm telling you there's something to this idea of he overcomes

12:24

And they fall in love and the love wins. And he's like, alright. Yeah. Yeah. I'll add that one to the list. Yeah. That's what he

And they fall in love and the love wins. And he's like, alright. Yeah. Yeah. I'll add that one to the list. Yeah. That's what he

12:30

said.

said.

12:31

He's like, stick the pod casting, Sean.

He's like, stick the pod casting, Sean.

12:35

Well, yeah, visitation media. Alright. Can I ask you about one? This is actually really fascinating. And, actually, I think it'd be a bigger business than than I don't know if you think, but bigger business than a lot of people think. A daily executive briefing email.

Well, yeah, visitation media. Alright. Can I ask you about one? This is actually really fascinating. And, actually, I think it'd be a bigger business than than I don't know if you think, but bigger business than a lot of people think. A daily executive briefing email.

12:50

Yeah. I don't I I'm not sure how big this one could be. I think I I I don't know if I put in the sheet. I said you have like a dollar column, which is kinda like my indication of how big it is. I think this is, like, a great side hustle business. Right? So I when I worked at American Express,

Yeah. I don't I I'm not sure how big this one could be. I think I I I don't know if I put in the sheet. I said you have like a dollar column, which is kinda like my indication of how big it is. I think this is, like, a great side hustle business. Right? So I when I worked at American Express,

13:04

every morning our CEO would get, like, a briefing from his chief of staff. Right? Like, you know, here's what Capital One did. Here's what City did yesterday. Here's what Visa did. Whatever. And it was, like, basically that person's job to, like, scour the internet.

every morning our CEO would get, like, a briefing from his chief of staff. Right? Like, you know, here's what Capital One did. Here's what City did yesterday. Here's what Visa did. Whatever. And it was, like, basically that person's job to, like, scour the internet.

13:17

And, like, look at financials and product launches and all this stuff. And there was a company that Cision bought called bulletin Intelligence, which I don't think I don't know how much they're doing with it, but it was basically that idea. It was gonna be, like, your morning chief of staff email, and Yeah. I think this is an awesome business that, like, somebody smart and industrious can can build. And you I think if you go niche, meaning, like, go financial services because, like, if you get Amex, like, the CEO of Citigroup, like, cares about or Citibank cares about mostly the same company. So you can reuse a lot of it. And it's not just the CEO. It's all, like, their division presidents, and they're, like,

And, like, look at financials and product launches and all this stuff. And there was a company that Cision bought called bulletin Intelligence, which I don't think I don't know how much they're doing with it, but it was basically that idea. It was gonna be, like, your morning chief of staff email, and Yeah. I think this is an awesome business that, like, somebody smart and industrious can can build. And you I think if you go niche, meaning, like, go financial services because, like, if you get Amex, like, the CEO of Citigroup, like, cares about or Citibank cares about mostly the same company. So you can reuse a lot of it. And it's not just the CEO. It's all, like, their division presidents, and they're, like,

13:55

geography, like, you know, heads and all that stuff. So, yeah, I think this is, like and, you know, I'm sure with generative AI and stuff, you could, like, make this really, like, efficient. But, yeah, I think this is,

geography, like, you know, heads and all that stuff. So, yeah, I think this is, like and, you know, I'm sure with generative AI and stuff, you could, like, make this really, like, efficient. But, yeah, I think this is,

14:05

like, tens of millions of dollars business. No. I think you're way off. So

like, tens of millions of dollars business. No. I think you're way off. So

14:11

Have you heard of you guys know politico. Right? Yeah. It's like, politico is like a news website for DC

Have you heard of you guys know politico. Right? Yeah. It's like, politico is like a news website for DC

14:18

all politics, but it's not from, like, a CNN fox news news perspective. It's more so, like, people who work in politics, they read Plitico.

all politics, but it's not from, like, a CNN fox news news perspective. It's more so, like, people who work in politics, they read Plitico.

14:27

Whatever. That's not interesting. What's interesting is that they sold recently to Axle Springer for over a billion dollars, and where they got roughly

Whatever. That's not interesting. What's interesting is that they sold recently to Axle Springer for over a billion dollars, and where they got roughly

14:35

nine figures so a hundred million plus of recurring revenue when they have this they have this service called POLITico Pro. Have you guys heard of not have you heard of political Pro?

nine figures so a hundred million plus of recurring revenue when they have this they have this service called POLITico Pro. Have you guys heard of not have you heard of political Pro?

14:43

No. I mean, I know that's a premium offer. I don't know what's in it. So, basically, I think it's like

No. I mean, I know that's a premium offer. I don't know what's in it. So, basically, I think it's like

14:49

a thousand a month. I forget the pricing. So someone's gonna, like, get on me. But they have this they they're pricing, but the

a thousand a month. I forget the pricing. So someone's gonna, like, get on me. But they have this they they're pricing, but the

14:56

it's basically it's for if you're a lawyer,

it's basically it's for if you're a lawyer,

14:59

or if you work in DC and you have to know what type of laws are happening at like a real rate. Like, who, you know, like, hey, the Senate is thinking about changing the like, because we heard this senator say this in the news yada yada yada. Well, anyway, they have these things called pro briefings.

or if you work in DC and you have to know what type of laws are happening at like a real rate. Like, who, you know, like, hey, the Senate is thinking about changing the like, because we heard this senator say this in the news yada yada yada. Well, anyway, they have these things called pro briefings.

15:16

And they send at least one a day, but sometimes more than one a day. And it's really fast short emails, and that's your briefing of what's happening that day with, with like a very, very, very niche thing. So for example,

And they send at least one a day, but sometimes more than one a day. And it's really fast short emails, and that's your briefing of what's happening that day with, with like a very, very, very niche thing. So for example,

15:30

they have a segment just for pharmaceutical,

they have a segment just for pharmaceutical,

15:33

company So if you're a pharmaceutical and you wanna know right away what's happening with the new laws,

company So if you're a pharmaceutical and you wanna know right away what's happening with the new laws,

15:38

or if you wanna dive deeper and read about researchers or if you just wanna have a a conversation with an analyst, you spend thousands of dollars a year, tens of thousands of tens of thousands a year, and that's basically what you're getting. It's this briefing as well as a few other things they scaled this business to north of a hundred million in recurring revenue. And it's pretty fascinating, and there's a few others doing that. And so I think if you could actually pick the right thing, whether that's pharma

or if you wanna dive deeper and read about researchers or if you just wanna have a a conversation with an analyst, you spend thousands of dollars a year, tens of thousands of tens of thousands a year, and that's basically what you're getting. It's this briefing as well as a few other things they scaled this business to north of a hundred million in recurring revenue. And it's pretty fascinating, and there's a few others doing that. And so I think if you could actually pick the right thing, whether that's pharma

16:00

legal. I don't know what else there would be.

legal. I don't know what else there would be.

16:04

All different types of finance. I think you could actually build a really interesting daily briefing business

All different types of finance. I think you could actually build a really interesting daily briefing business

16:09

And you could even have a user

And you could even have a user

16:12

say which companies they wanna spy on a little bit more than normal. And I think you could charge tens of thousands of dollars a year for a subscription like that. Yeah. You can charge a lot for this. Like, these folks, like, as long as you deliver quality in the morning when they need it, like, yeah, there's They have sort of massive budgets. And I think bulletin had Bezos as a customer for a while. So, like, he was reading the bulletin Intel briefing every morning. So What's that company called BOLatin? BOLatin intelligence. Cision Bottom many years ago. Dude, the reason why I like I like talking to you is, like, you and I are some of the few people that nerd out on there's, like, all these data businesses out there. So You and I, for years, have talked about there's like, informa, which is like a ten billion dollar market cap, basically, data and trade show business. Then there's You're a money, which we've talked about, another publicly traded company. There's a Cision, which, like, is just kinda an older company that no it just they these companies are just huge and they're just sexy, so they're not talked about with our circle, but they're crazy fascinating to like learn about these companies because their margins can be huge.

say which companies they wanna spy on a little bit more than normal. And I think you could charge tens of thousands of dollars a year for a subscription like that. Yeah. You can charge a lot for this. Like, these folks, like, as long as you deliver quality in the morning when they need it, like, yeah, there's They have sort of massive budgets. And I think bulletin had Bezos as a customer for a while. So, like, he was reading the bulletin Intel briefing every morning. So What's that company called BOLatin? BOLatin intelligence. Cision Bottom many years ago. Dude, the reason why I like I like talking to you is, like, you and I are some of the few people that nerd out on there's, like, all these data businesses out there. So You and I, for years, have talked about there's like, informa, which is like a ten billion dollar market cap, basically, data and trade show business. Then there's You're a money, which we've talked about, another publicly traded company. There's a Cision, which, like, is just kinda an older company that no it just they these companies are just huge and they're just sexy, so they're not talked about with our circle, but they're crazy fascinating to like learn about these companies because their margins can be huge.

17:13

Yeah. It's a I mean, it's a build once, so multiple times kind of business. Right? So, like, once you build that data asset or that info asset, like, you can keep selling it. So Yeah. They're great businesses. They're unsexy, which is always good because, like, then you don't get all the smart people kinda trying to come in and, you know, eat your take your lunch money. So, yeah, I like these business a lot.

Yeah. It's a I mean, it's a build once, so multiple times kind of business. Right? So, like, once you build that data asset or that info asset, like, you can keep selling it. So Yeah. They're great businesses. They're unsexy, which is always good because, like, then you don't get all the smart people kinda trying to come in and, you know, eat your take your lunch money. So, yeah, I like these business a lot.

17:33

You'd you had one on here also that was the pricing data. So it was, like, go extract

You'd you had one on here also that was the pricing data. So it was, like, go extract

17:38

the pricing data from every

the pricing data from every

17:40

SaaS tool and, you know, go to their go to their website, find the prices,

SaaS tool and, you know, go to their go to their website, find the prices,

17:44

organize all that information for things where it requires a demo, quote, like, I don't know, send a you know, five dollar an hour employee through that process, collect the pricing data. Now you have it. Now you can make that visible where they are hiding it on their website. And you basically have a giant, what, like, a search engine or a database of

organize all that information for things where it requires a demo, quote, like, I don't know, send a you know, five dollar an hour employee through that process, collect the pricing data. Now you have it. Now you can make that visible where they are hiding it on their website. And you basically have a giant, what, like, a search engine or a database of

18:03

of okay. If I wanna use some email, you know, send software,

of okay. If I wanna use some email, you know, send software,

18:07

Here's the here's how the prices compare across them. Is that what the idea would be for them? Yeah. I think the idea there is I think you start with public SaaS pages and you figure out how to crawl them or you know, m Turkam or something.

Here's the here's how the prices compare across them. Is that what the idea would be for them? Yeah. I think the idea there is I think you start with public SaaS pages and you figure out how to crawl them or you know, m Turkam or something.

18:19

And then, yeah, email service provider. What's the pricing? What are the features? I think the real killer there, which is, you know, maybe borderline is, like, you actually because a lot of enterprise companies don't put their pricing on their page. So you hire somebody who goes and pretends that they're a customer and gets the pricing. And then that's really, really value. Right? Because, like, now if I'm because pricing's like a dark art in b to b, you're like,

And then, yeah, email service provider. What's the pricing? What are the features? I think the real killer there, which is, you know, maybe borderline is, like, you actually because a lot of enterprise companies don't put their pricing on their page. So you hire somebody who goes and pretends that they're a customer and gets the pricing. And then that's really, really value. Right? Because, like, now if I'm because pricing's like a dark art in b to b, you're like,

18:44

yeah, sounds good. Right? And, like, everybody's got opinions and nobody has data. So I think you could actually do something really interesting there, like, long term if you actually called companies and got that pricing,

yeah, sounds good. Right? And, like, everybody's got opinions and nobody has data. So I think you could actually do something really interesting there, like, long term if you actually called companies and got that pricing,

18:54

or talk to their customers and you get their pricing. But That that's actually the tagline.

or talk to their customers and you get their pricing. But That that's actually the tagline.

18:59

It was the tagline on your website, which is,

It was the tagline on your website, which is,

19:02

without data, you're just another idiot with an opinion or something like that. I think.

without data, you're just another idiot with an opinion or something like that. I think.

19:06

Dude, that's great. It was great. Right? I don't know. Do you guys use that anymore? We don't use that anymore. I think we we still use, like, in god we trust all others gotta bring data. Like, so we'll use that in some

Dude, that's great. It was great. Right? I don't know. Do you guys use that anymore? We don't use that anymore. I think we we still use, like, in god we trust all others gotta bring data. Like, so we'll use that in some

19:19

Who,

Who,

19:21

who who comes up with this stuff? This is you or this is someone on your team who's, like, the witty copywriter? These are just stolen from other people who are It's like a quote. The idiot wants a quote, I think. Right? I think both of these are, like, you know, somebody, like, some luminary, and, you know, we we footnote them in small print and give them credit.

who who comes up with this stuff? This is you or this is someone on your team who's, like, the witty copywriter? These are just stolen from other people who are It's like a quote. The idiot wants a quote, I think. Right? I think both of these are, like, you know, somebody, like, some luminary, and, you know, we we footnote them in small print and give them credit.

19:37

Do do do you think that you guys being kind of silly

Do do do you think that you guys being kind of silly

19:41

is,

is,

19:43

a leg up, or do people criticize you?

a leg up, or do people criticize you?

19:46

Yeah. I mean, we get some criticism, but honestly, like, b to b is so mind numbingly boring that,

Yeah. I mean, we get some criticism, but honestly, like, b to b is so mind numbingly boring that,

19:53

like, it's it's great as a way to stand out. But, you know, I I tell the team, like, you know, love us or hate us, you you should have an opinion on us. And so that's the general theme. Right? Because most of it's like pretty vanilla and, you know, just kinda like jargony. And so, yeah, it's been it's been, I'd say, a net positive for us, but we've lost some customers over stuff. We've said offended them and what Like what? You know, we did a ranking one of of VCs once, and we said a specific firm was losing in the ranking, and it was just an objective thing. And they were like, we're canceling our subscription immediately. Right? And,

like, it's it's great as a way to stand out. But, you know, I I tell the team, like, you know, love us or hate us, you you should have an opinion on us. And so that's the general theme. Right? Because most of it's like pretty vanilla and, you know, just kinda like jargony. And so, yeah, it's been it's been, I'd say, a net positive for us, but we've lost some customers over stuff. We've said offended them and what Like what? You know, we did a ranking one of of VCs once, and we said a specific firm was losing in the ranking, and it was just an objective thing. And they were like, we're canceling our subscription immediately. Right? And,

20:28

What a loser move of them? It just proves my point.

What a loser move of them? It just proves my point.

20:31

Oh, you don't You don't want access to data now. You got you got your feelings hurt and you canceled your own your own data pipeline. You're like, you're down another peg.

Oh, you don't You don't want access to data now. You got you got your feelings hurt and you canceled your own your own data pipeline. You're like, you're down another peg.

20:41

So we've had, you know, that. And some people don't, like, you know, I think when Crump hysteria was going, we'd, like, sometimes put a infographic

So we've had, you know, that. And some people don't, like, you know, I think when Crump hysteria was going, we'd, like, sometimes put a infographic

20:48

with him in it. And, like, We didn't have an opinion, but it was just, like, you just him and Elon Musk. Like, if you mentioned them,

with him in it. And, like, We didn't have an opinion, but it was just, like, you just him and Elon Musk. Like, if you mentioned them,

20:56

it's just, like, lunatics come out. Right? And so, like,

it's just, like, lunatics come out. Right? And so, like,

21:00

so it's good for engagement, but it is definitely, like, a little bit. It can be odd. Like, you say something and people just, like, they've, you know, it's it's a cult and people do it kinda crazy. Like, I you you always you're a really good writer and or whoever's writing is really good. And you guys always use things like, your headlines are really good, but then there's, like, just phrases all over. Like, it's built into your culture. Like, in your annual review, we're like, hey, we did pretty good for a company

so it's good for engagement, but it is definitely, like, a little bit. It can be odd. Like, you say something and people just, like, they've, you know, it's it's a cult and people do it kinda crazy. Like, I you you always you're a really good writer and or whoever's writing is really good. And you guys always use things like, your headlines are really good, but then there's, like, just phrases all over. Like, it's built into your culture. Like, in your annual review, we're like, hey, we did pretty good for a company

21:24

that isn't lighting money on fire. Like the rest of the VC world. They're like just like little phrases like that. It just makes it stand out and I think that that makes you have a voice and you guys are actually pretty good at that. Yeah. And I appreciate that. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's partly for the external market. It's partly for the team. Right? Like, you're selling b to b software. And so Sometimes that can be, like, you know, if you're twenty two out of school, it's like, hey, that's not super inspiring. And I don't know exactly what that looks like. And then once we can show them, we can personality. We're in the tech economy, which is interesting. So, yeah, it works. It, you know, we we screw up a bunch of things, but that's been good for us. If I was gonna go out there and do what you said of getting all the data and, like, hiring people to call and and actually get, quotes, who would I sell that to?

that isn't lighting money on fire. Like the rest of the VC world. They're like just like little phrases like that. It just makes it stand out and I think that that makes you have a voice and you guys are actually pretty good at that. Yeah. And I appreciate that. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's partly for the external market. It's partly for the team. Right? Like, you're selling b to b software. And so Sometimes that can be, like, you know, if you're twenty two out of school, it's like, hey, that's not super inspiring. And I don't know exactly what that looks like. And then once we can show them, we can personality. We're in the tech economy, which is interesting. So, yeah, it works. It, you know, we we screw up a bunch of things, but that's been good for us. If I was gonna go out there and do what you said of getting all the data and, like, hiring people to call and and actually get, quotes, who would I sell that to?

22:07

On the software pricing?

On the software pricing?

22:09

Yeah.

Yeah.

22:10

I think you go to product teams at software companies and say, like, you know, or your CR chief revenue officers and say, like, hey, like, you know, do you know how you came up with your pricing? Like, you know, and here's what your peers are pricing at and give them, like, a snippet and give them a taste and be like, hey, and we have all this other detail behind. Right? How much would you charge?

I think you go to product teams at software companies and say, like, you know, or your CR chief revenue officers and say, like, hey, like, you know, do you know how you came up with your pricing? Like, you know, and here's what your peers are pricing at and give them, like, a snippet and give them a taste and be like, hey, and we have all this other detail behind. Right? How much would you charge?

22:32

I mean, I don't think you start anything with, like, CROs at big companies. And, like, you start at, you know, twenty to fifty thousand dollars. Right? Like, it's easier to go

I mean, I don't think you start anything with, like, CROs at big companies. And, like, you start at, you know, twenty to fifty thousand dollars. Right? Like, it's easier to go

22:43

low than to start low and go high.

low than to start low and go high.

22:45

We just

We just

22:47

You just handed someone listening a pretty solid idea.

You just handed someone listening a pretty solid idea.

22:51

Right?

Right?

22:53

I I think that I I think the thing people do is they under We did this in the beginning. Our for CB insights when it started was three hundred ninety five a month. And what you actually got was a bunch of people who didn't know how to use data, who were a pain in the ass. Right? And so it was like your worst nightmare. It was people who churned quickly, who paid you little, and who were blowing you up on chat all the time for support.

I I think that I I think the thing people do is they under We did this in the beginning. Our for CB insights when it started was three hundred ninety five a month. And what you actually got was a bunch of people who didn't know how to use data, who were a pain in the ass. Right? And so it was like your worst nightmare. It was people who churned quickly, who paid you little, and who were blowing you up on chat all the time for support.

23:13

And then I remember meeting a management consulting firm, and they were like, hey, can you add a couple zeros to the price?

And then I remember meeting a management consulting firm, and they were like, hey, can you add a couple zeros to the price?

23:19

Because

Because

23:20

Like, one, your price will look like a joke internally.

Like, one, your price will look like a joke internally.

23:23

And two, I don't wanna wait behind the guy paying three ninety five a month for service.

And two, I don't wanna wait behind the guy paying three ninety five a month for service.

23:28

So, like,

So, like,

23:30

price is a

price is a

23:31

indicator of quality as an indicator of other things beyond just

indicator of quality as an indicator of other things beyond just

23:36

like the core value. Product. So that was, like, eye opening to me. Like, I always always, like, oh, you know, price low and, you know, do all that. And, like, you know, now we're we're orders of magnitude higher than we used to when we started.

like the core value. Product. So that was, like, eye opening to me. Like, I always always, like, oh, you know, price low and, you know, do all that. And, like, you know, now we're we're orders of magnitude higher than we used to when we started.

23:47

That's awesome. Sean, what do you got? Let's do some non data nerd ideas. So,

That's awesome. Sean, what do you got? Let's do some non data nerd ideas. So,

23:53

I'm gonna pick a different one.

I'm gonna pick a different one.

23:56

Yeah. Yeah. Let's do the college rankings one. Oh, did you call it broke and busted?

Yeah. Yeah. Let's do the college rankings one. Oh, did you call it broke and busted?

24:00

Broke and busted college rankings. Okay. So what, what's the

Broke and busted college rankings. Okay. So what, what's the

24:05

What's the insight here? So I think US News and World Report is sort of like the preeminent college rankings. There's been plenty of coverage about how that's a basic con. Right? And, like, universities do all this sort of finagling to try to get higher in that. You know, I I look

What's the insight here? So I think US News and World Report is sort of like the preeminent college rankings. There's been plenty of coverage about how that's a basic con. Right? And, like, universities do all this sort of finagling to try to get higher in that. You know, I I look

24:20

how's that work? How yeah. They pay or what what is what's I don't think it's that they paid. I think it's that, like, you know, you've got these, like, subjective criteria,

how's that work? How yeah. They pay or what what is what's I don't think it's that they paid. I think it's that, like, you know, you've got these, like, subjective criteria,

24:29

like,

like,

24:30

you know, student to teacher ratio. Right? And so, like,

you know, student to teacher ratio. Right? And so, like,

24:34

universities

universities

24:35

will, like, massage that data so it looks good. Right? And so, like, you know, the it's, like, a limited set of factors

will, like, massage that data so it looks good. Right? And so, like, you know, the it's, like, a limited set of factors

24:42

And it's unclear how causal those factors are to actually getting a good education. Right? And so I think you turn that on head. Well, I think US news and world report, you know, I think in, like, twenty thirteen, it was doing, like, forty million in revenue. And now it has, like, Again, LinkedIn, five hundred some odd employees. So I I gotta believe it's doing a hundred million plus in revenue.

And it's unclear how causal those factors are to actually getting a good education. Right? And so I think you turn that on head. Well, I think US news and world report, you know, I think in, like, twenty thirteen, it was doing, like, forty million in revenue. And now it has, like, Again, LinkedIn, five hundred some odd employees. So I I gotta believe it's doing a hundred million plus in revenue.

25:04

And

And

25:05

I'm assuming college rankings is the number one thing. So I think the thing you do here is

I'm assuming college rankings is the number one thing. So I think the thing you do here is

25:10

you actually go to graduates of the school and just ask them for their w twos.

you actually go to graduates of the school and just ask them for their w twos.

25:15

And you're like, how much are you making?

And you're like, how much are you making?

25:17

Right? You just took on a bunch of debt. Like, does this place actually get you a job that gets you paid or you, like,

Right? You just took on a bunch of debt. Like, does this place actually get you a job that gets you paid or you, like,

25:24

you know,

you know,

25:25

server in a restaurant and you got, like, your two hundred thousand dollars in debt. And so I think you reach out to alumni, go get their w twos and basically

server in a restaurant and you got, like, your two hundred thousand dollars in debt. And so I think you reach out to alumni, go get their w twos and basically

25:35

put a ranking together of here's how much I paid and here's how much I make when I get out. And if I'm a parent, I'll care about that. I'll be like, I don't really want to send my kid to a school where their prospects for employment are garbage.

put a ranking together of here's how much I paid and here's how much I make when I get out. And if I'm a parent, I'll care about that. I'll be like, I don't really want to send my kid to a school where their prospects for employment are garbage.

25:50

And so I think it's, like, takes all of the it's a very singular characteristics. So it doesn't take into consideration social life and all that other stuff, but it's, like, I think it's pretty important, right, especially you got all these people, like, leaving school with, you know, tons of debt. So that's the way I would do it. And you'd have to probably pay those students

And so I think it's, like, takes all of the it's a very singular characteristics. So it doesn't take into consideration social life and all that other stuff, but it's, like, I think it's pretty important, right, especially you got all these people, like, leaving school with, you know, tons of debt. So that's the way I would do it. And you'd have to probably pay those students

26:08

or ex students a little bit, but I think it's pretty cheap. And you'd probably go, like,

or ex students a little bit, but I think it's pretty cheap. And you'd probably go, like,

26:12

do, like, New York colleges to start, like, start niche. Like, don't try to be everywhere right out of the gate, like, you know, and then build out from, like, concentric circles from there.

do, like, New York colleges to start, like, start niche. Like, don't try to be everywhere right out of the gate, like, you know, and then build out from, like, concentric circles from there.

26:23

Do you under, like, I don't know about you Sean, but, like, what is

Do you under, like, I don't know about you Sean, but, like, what is

26:28

we're talking about some nerdy stuff here, but I I I find it like crazy fascinating because it's very clear to see the opportunity here. But what's shocking

we're talking about some nerdy stuff here, but I I I find it like crazy fascinating because it's very clear to see the opportunity here. But what's shocking

26:37

is like when you say, oh, I'm gonna go get the data. Someone like me, I would be like,

is like when you say, oh, I'm gonna go get the data. Someone like me, I would be like,

26:42

well, I gotta go, like, Google it and, like, find a database. And you're like, No. I'll just, like, hire, like, I'll use mechanical turk, you said earlier, or I'll just hire someone or I'll just, like, make a ton of phone calls, And just doing that stuff, I can get interesting insights. Is is that really how a lot of this works? And and the beauty of that business is ninety

well, I gotta go, like, Google it and, like, find a database. And you're like, No. I'll just, like, hire, like, I'll use mechanical turk, you said earlier, or I'll just hire someone or I'll just, like, make a ton of phone calls, And just doing that stuff, I can get interesting insights. Is is that really how a lot of this works? And and the beauty of that business is ninety

27:01

nine p at nine people out of a hundred won't do that work. So, like, once you built the data asset, like, most people will think it's cool and they just won't do it. Like, the other one that I like I don't know if I put on the page is, you know, I was, trying to get a pool bill at my mom's house. And, like, pool pricing is just, like, it's opaque.

nine p at nine people out of a hundred won't do that work. So, like, once you built the data asset, like, most people will think it's cool and they just won't do it. Like, the other one that I like I don't know if I put on the page is, you know, I was, trying to get a pool bill at my mom's house. And, like, pool pricing is just, like, it's opaque.

27:20

Highly variable

Highly variable

27:22

and high consideration.

and high consideration.

27:23

And, like, I have no idea what to pay for a pool. Like, some kids should just go door to door at every person's

And, like, I have no idea what to pay for a pool. Like, some kids should just go door to door at every person's

27:29

house that has a pool and just be like, how much did you pay for your pool and, like, get the specs and then go find out and then find out what do they pay per month for cleaning and whatever. I don't know what a pool requires. And, like, literally build the database of, like,

house that has a pool and just be like, how much did you pay for your pool and, like, get the specs and then go find out and then find out what do they pay per month for cleaning and whatever. I don't know what a pool requires. And, like, literally build the database of, like,

27:44

That's a great idea. Who's in North Jersey? Here's what it costs. So, like Yeah. Because that's what people Google too. Right? Like,

That's a great idea. Who's in North Jersey? Here's what it costs. So, like Yeah. Because that's what people Google too. Right? Like,

27:51

you know, pool pool cost and then my city. Right? That's a that's a a a term that people will look for. Or even if they're just looking at pool cost, but you have their their city and the headline, they're gonna click that one over the next one. And then you go back to the pool people and you're like, hey, listen. I got this pricing. Next time you wanna bid, you probably need to know what your measures are bidding. So, like, you can sell the data to both sides. Right? Like, but -- Right. -- it's definitely, like, it's a perfect side hustle. Like, you know, it'd be, like, a thing that you know, I hope my kids will, like, just go do this, like door to door and go get data. I love how even though I tried to pick a non nerdy data one. It actually underneath the hood was a a a nerdy data one. You're like the you're a data hammer and the whole world is just little nails that you're just trying to hammer with your, you know, like, dude, this is the best business there is. In the data, like, a vacuum. You're the data Dyson that's just taking in this data from everywhere you can. Yeah. I I mean, I love that business. And I actually like, not to get off on a digression, but I think this whole at GPT thing is actually gonna make private data, like, that much more valuable. Because, like, You know, before it was like, oh, I'll give you my data and you'll just link to me and I'll get Google, but, like,

you know, pool pool cost and then my city. Right? That's a that's a a a term that people will look for. Or even if they're just looking at pool cost, but you have their their city and the headline, they're gonna click that one over the next one. And then you go back to the pool people and you're like, hey, listen. I got this pricing. Next time you wanna bid, you probably need to know what your measures are bidding. So, like, you can sell the data to both sides. Right? Like, but -- Right. -- it's definitely, like, it's a perfect side hustle. Like, you know, it'd be, like, a thing that you know, I hope my kids will, like, just go do this, like door to door and go get data. I love how even though I tried to pick a non nerdy data one. It actually underneath the hood was a a a nerdy data one. You're like the you're a data hammer and the whole world is just little nails that you're just trying to hammer with your, you know, like, dude, this is the best business there is. In the data, like, a vacuum. You're the data Dyson that's just taking in this data from everywhere you can. Yeah. I I mean, I love that business. And I actually like, not to get off on a digression, but I think this whole at GPT thing is actually gonna make private data, like, that much more valuable. Because, like, You know, before it was like, oh, I'll give you my data and you'll just link to me and I'll get Google, but, like,

29:00

like, that's all going away, I think. And so, like, having access to private data is gonna be really valuable. So I'm, yeah, I'm I'm extra bullish. And do you look at, like, for example, the,

like, that's all going away, I think. And so, like, having access to private data is gonna be really valuable. So I'm, yeah, I'm I'm extra bullish. And do you look at, like, for example, the,

29:10

The pool one is a good one because it's probably not the pricing's not probably changing all the time. Whereas maybe the college one, you gotta redo the the data collection every year in order for it to be accurate. Like, for example, in the content game or the media game, which me and Sam think a lot more about is, like, if anybody could do really well with Evergreen content, that's so much better than somebody's doing what we were doing daily daily

The pool one is a good one because it's probably not the pricing's not probably changing all the time. Whereas maybe the college one, you gotta redo the the data collection every year in order for it to be accurate. Like, for example, in the content game or the media game, which me and Sam think a lot more about is, like, if anybody could do really well with Evergreen content, that's so much better than somebody's doing what we were doing daily daily

29:32

emails where it's disposable, and you gotta recreate the product the next morning. Otherwise, there is no product. And so do you think about that when it comes to data? Like, either the ease of collection or the longevity of the collection, like, really makes the idea more valuable versus less?

emails where it's disposable, and you gotta recreate the product the next morning. Otherwise, there is no product. And so do you think about that when it comes to data? Like, either the ease of collection or the longevity of the collection, like, really makes the idea more valuable versus less?

29:47

Yeah. I mean, I think

Yeah. I mean, I think

29:50

you probably want data maybe counter intuitively that requires a lot of refresh.

you probably want data maybe counter intuitively that requires a lot of refresh.

29:55

Right? Because, like, that's what keeps people subscribing.

Right? Because, like, that's what keeps people subscribing.

29:58

Right? If I can get the data once and it's good for three years, it's like, alright. I'll get it. I'll churn. I'll come back to you in three years when it changes. When it's actually a little bit more when there's a little more volatility to it, it's like, hey, I need to know what's going on because, like, my business might suffer or What have you? In the case of the pool, when the pool owner's only gonna buy it once. Right? But you know that, but that's okay. Right? Because

Right? If I can get the data once and it's good for three years, it's like, alright. I'll get it. I'll churn. I'll come back to you in three years when it changes. When it's actually a little bit more when there's a little more volatility to it, it's like, hey, I need to know what's going on because, like, my business might suffer or What have you? In the case of the pool, when the pool owner's only gonna buy it once. Right? But you know that, but that's okay. Right? Because

30:21

Like, you could sell those leads to pool people. You could sell that to pool cleaners. Like, you could do all sorts of interesting things with it. Right? And so, like, it doesn't have to be you're selling the data. You build advertising

Like, you could sell those leads to pool people. You could sell that to pool cleaners. Like, you could do all sorts of interesting things with it. Right? And so, like, it doesn't have to be you're selling the data. You build advertising

30:30

and lead gen and other businesses off of it for sure.

and lead gen and other businesses off of it for sure.

30:34

Okay. I got one that there's no way this can be a data one.

Okay. I got one that there's no way this can be a data one.

30:37

A McCormick's

A McCormick's

30:38

Spice competitor.

Spice competitor.

30:41

Yeah. I don't this one, I don't have a lot. It's just, you know, I think I have a column called zone of and this one's out of my zone of excellence.

Yeah. I don't this one, I don't have a lot. It's just, you know, I think I have a column called zone of and this one's out of my zone of excellence.

30:49

McCormix is, like, this multibillion dollar spice company.

McCormix is, like, this multibillion dollar spice company.

30:52

Oh, direct. If if you open up your spice whatever

Oh, direct. If if you open up your spice whatever

30:57

cabinet.

cabinet.

30:57

Like, there's probably, like, these spices with, like, a red top. Right? Like, that's all McCormick's. Right? Twenty four billion dollar company.

Like, there's probably, like, these spices with, like, a red top. Right? Like, that's all McCormick's. Right? Twenty four billion dollar company.

31:05

Wow. In sales. In sales?

Wow. In sales. In sales?

31:08

Mark and Cat. Wow. Public company. Yeah. So it's just like like, you know, why isn't there, like, the

Mark and Cat. Wow. Public company. Yeah. So it's just like like, you know, why isn't there, like, the

31:14

I don't know, the apple of black pepper. Like, I don't really know how to do this shit. Right? But like -- Right. -- like, what's the what's, like Well, I think for this one, you're you're right. You can go either higher end or, you know, the just the more fun looking, but just branding packaging design and influencer, most importantly. So, like, who is the,

I don't know, the apple of black pepper. Like, I don't really know how to do this shit. Right? But like -- Right. -- like, what's the what's, like Well, I think for this one, you're you're right. You can go either higher end or, you know, the just the more fun looking, but just branding packaging design and influencer, most importantly. So, like, who is the,

31:34

you know, the whatever, the Martha Stewart of YouTube that you can partner with that can be the face of a brand like this. Right? Like, who who has that kind of brand and gravitas that can get into a target or, or the store shelves at at supermarkets

you know, the whatever, the Martha Stewart of YouTube that you can partner with that can be the face of a brand like this. Right? Like, who who has that kind of brand and gravitas that can get into a target or, or the store shelves at at supermarkets

31:49

to compete with something like this. And I think that's that's the way I would go if I was gonna do this. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think the thing that's interesting about this, and I don't know anything about McCormick's is, like, the bundling

to compete with something like this. And I think that's that's the way I would go if I was gonna do this. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think the thing that's interesting about this, and I don't know anything about McCormick's is, like, the bundling

31:58

Like, you know, if you buy salt, you need pepper. If you need pepper, you might be needing oregano, and you might need whatever flakes that they sell out there. Right? And so Yeah. You could just keep stamping this out across, like, every spice category. But, yeah, this is not one that is outside of my zone of excellence. So I agree with this one, but I like it. They own everything. I didn't realize this. Have you guys ever have you ever seen this protein bar at gas stations called Tiger's milk?

Like, you know, if you buy salt, you need pepper. If you need pepper, you might be needing oregano, and you might need whatever flakes that they sell out there. Right? And so Yeah. You could just keep stamping this out across, like, every spice category. But, yeah, this is not one that is outside of my zone of excellence. So I agree with this one, but I like it. They own everything. I didn't realize this. Have you guys ever have you ever seen this protein bar at gas stations called Tiger's milk?

32:27

Yes. They own this bar. It's the worst, like, in like, it's basically a label. It looks like it was like drawn by Kenny Powers or, like, It looks like if power rangers ate a protein bar, this is what they would eat. And it's just like it's called tiger milk, and it has a it has a face of a tiger. And it's like at the protein bar. They own Matt. They own a bunch of different stuff. This is awesome. I yeah. I I have I totally should have, yeah, they own Frank Red Hat. That's my favorite. Yeah, what a what a company? I didn't re I didn't realize that these guys were what they are. That's wild, man. They're created in the eighteen hundreds.

Yes. They own this bar. It's the worst, like, in like, it's basically a label. It looks like it was like drawn by Kenny Powers or, like, It looks like if power rangers ate a protein bar, this is what they would eat. And it's just like it's called tiger milk, and it has a it has a face of a tiger. And it's like at the protein bar. They own Matt. They own a bunch of different stuff. This is awesome. I yeah. I I have I totally should have, yeah, they own Frank Red Hat. That's my favorite. Yeah, what a what a company? I didn't re I didn't realize that these guys were what they are. That's wild, man. They're created in the eighteen hundreds.

32:58

Yeah. I mean, yeah, they're just, you know, brand recognition and everybody knows. I mean, if you go to the Spice Isle, it's all that.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, they're just, you know, brand recognition and everybody knows. I mean, if you go to the Spice Isle, it's all that.

33:05

Like, they just own the whole thing. Right? So you gotta come up with a distribution hack here, but that's, you know, Sean, that's probably more your world than than mine. But, yeah, for sure. Can I ask you a quick question different from my ideas, but about money?

Like, they just own the whole thing. Right? So you gotta come up with a distribution hack here, but that's, you know, Sean, that's probably more your world than than mine. But, yeah, for sure. Can I ask you a quick question different from my ideas, but about money?

33:19

So I'm not gonna you can say it if you want. I'm gonna assume that you own a a a chunk that you are on paper worth,

So I'm not gonna you can say it if you want. I'm gonna assume that you own a a a chunk that you are on paper worth,

33:26

mid to high,

mid to high,

33:27

low to low to high hundreds of millions of dollars.

low to low to high hundreds of millions of dollars.

33:31

Have you taken any money out of your company or has your only income for the last, I think you said ten years you've been running this? Just been like a a a norm more mild salary?

Have you taken any money out of your company or has your only income for the last, I think you said ten years you've been running this? Just been like a a a norm more mild salary?

33:42

Yeah. So I didn't I didn't pay myself for the first four years. So when we raised money, then I basically took my back salary. And then since then, I've not,

Yeah. So I didn't I didn't pay myself for the first four years. So when we raised money, then I basically took my back salary. And then since then, I've not,

33:53

not taking any money off the table. So, yeah, I'm

not taking any money off the table. So, yeah, I'm

33:56

foolishly long or brilliantly long CB Insights. We'll we'll see what we'll see how things play out. Yeah. I'm all in. Were you wealthy before you started the company? Like, did you have banker wealth? So just No. No. No. I just

foolishly long or brilliantly long CB Insights. We'll we'll see what we'll see how things play out. Yeah. I'm all in. Were you wealthy before you started the company? Like, did you have banker wealth? So just No. No. No. I just

34:09

you know, I got married right before I started the company. I told my wife when we were dating that I'm I don't wanna work at a big company anymore, and we're gonna, like, there's gonna there's gonna be some lean times, and so she was down. And so I just saved

you know, I got married right before I started the company. I told my wife when we were dating that I'm I don't wanna work at a big company anymore, and we're gonna, like, there's gonna there's gonna be some lean times, and so she was down. And so I just saved

34:22

religiously.

religiously.

34:23

Like, we didn't go on vacations with friends and just like, you know, and it was always like awkward because they're like, oh, do you wanna go somewhere? And I'm Oh, I'm super busy, but I because I just was like, no, I don't have money. So, yeah, I just thieves, like I'm busy. I'm busy being poor right now.

Like, we didn't go on vacations with friends and just like, you know, and it was always like awkward because they're like, oh, do you wanna go somewhere? And I'm Oh, I'm super busy, but I because I just was like, no, I don't have money. So, yeah, I just thieves, like I'm busy. I'm busy being poor right now.

34:37

I can't go. Sorry. I'll take the calendar when I'm not four. I'll start going.

I can't go. Sorry. I'll take the calendar when I'm not four. I'll start going.

34:42

I just saved a ton of money. And then, yeah, for the first, like, two years of CBI just paid for a small team out of my pocket, and then we started generating revenue. But Wait. Why why haven't you taken a few million bucks just off the table?

I just saved a ton of money. And then, yeah, for the first, like, two years of CBI just paid for a small team out of my pocket, and then we started generating revenue. But Wait. Why why haven't you taken a few million bucks just off the table?

34:56

Just to make your life a little bit better. It wouldn't be it would have no material output. Okay. Yeah. And by the way, just just so we have numbers, you basically have only made, I imagine,

Just to make your life a little bit better. It wouldn't be it would have no material output. Okay. Yeah. And by the way, just just so we have numbers, you basically have only made, I imagine,

35:06

middle hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in salary. Is that right?

middle hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in salary. Is that right?

35:10

Yeah. I mean, I'm I now get paid, like, a fair CEO salary.

Yeah. I mean, I'm I now get paid, like, a fair CEO salary.

35:14

Right? So I'm not, like, it's not, like, one of these big public company guys, but, like,

Right? So I'm not, like, it's not, like, one of these big public company guys, but, like,

35:19

yeah, I think

yeah, I think

35:21

I just We've been really focused on the business. And, like, I just think it's a giant opportunity.

I just We've been really focused on the business. And, like, I just think it's a giant opportunity.

35:27

And, candidly, part of the reason we didn't raise in the beginning,

And, candidly, part of the reason we didn't raise in the beginning,

35:30

was because I don't think I'm good at pitching.

was because I don't think I'm good at pitching.

35:33

And I also worked in venture, and I didn't, like, wanna work

And I also worked in venture, and I didn't, like, wanna work

35:38

for my investor.

for my investor.

35:39

Right? Like, that was always like a very guiding principle of mine. Like, you know, and I look at s ones of companies that go public. And I'm like, you know, the founder owns, like, five percent. I'm like, that's just, like, that's a backwards calculation.

Right? Like, that was always like a very guiding principle of mine. Like, you know, and I look at s ones of companies that go public. And I'm like, you know, the founder owns, like, five percent. I'm like, that's just, like, that's a backwards calculation.

35:50

Yeah. Probably, you know, should have could have taken money off over the course of time.

Yeah. Probably, you know, should have could have taken money off over the course of time.

35:56

Right now would not be a good time to do that given where the markets are. So I figure we'll just keep growing out of this current sort of malaise that we're in and then, you know, opportunities sort of tend to present themselves. Even our fundraise was like a customer sent us a term sheet over email.

Right now would not be a good time to do that given where the markets are. So I figure we'll just keep growing out of this current sort of malaise that we're in and then, you know, opportunities sort of tend to present themselves. Even our fundraise was like a customer sent us a term sheet over email.

36:12

I can't find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

I can't find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

36:16

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application. Every team can stay aligned. No out of sync spreadsheets or dueling databases.

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application. Every team can stay aligned. No out of sync spreadsheets or dueling databases.

36:25

HubSpot,

HubSpot,

36:26

grow better.

grow better.

36:28

Tell the story of the of tell the story of the guy who offered you a hundred million dollars via DM.

Tell the story of the of tell the story of the guy who offered you a hundred million dollars via DM.

36:36

How did that go?

How did that go?

36:38

You know, I get some interesting DMs on Twitter, and so somebody offered a hundred million. I, you know, I think this guy was broke as a joke, but it was still funny. I said, you know, not interested not looking to sell. And I think then the email chain kind of devolved from there where he was like, you know, I'm gonna build a competitor and put you out of business and, yeah, it was good. You sustained.

You know, I get some interesting DMs on Twitter, and so somebody offered a hundred million. I, you know, I think this guy was broke as a joke, but it was still funny. I said, you know, not interested not looking to sell. And I think then the email chain kind of devolved from there where he was like, you know, I'm gonna build a competitor and put you out of business and, yeah, it was good. You sustained.

36:57

I don't recall. I don't recall. It was like some You you blurted out of the thing, but blurted out. Yeah. So so he says this DM. You posted the DM screenshots. It starts like, hey, here's who I am. Really interested,

I don't recall. I don't recall. It was like some You you blurted out of the thing, but blurted out. Yeah. So so he says this DM. You posted the DM screenshots. It starts like, hey, here's who I am. Really interested,

37:10

you know, in partnering or or an acquisition.

you know, in partnering or or an acquisition.

37:12

Let's talk. Please call me. And then you were like, thanks. Yeah. Not even thanks. T h x. Right? Just like the the short thanks,

Let's talk. Please call me. And then you were like, thanks. Yeah. Not even thanks. T h x. Right? Just like the the short thanks,

37:20

not for sale. Nice. And he goes, and then he goes, how about a partnership?

not for sale. Nice. And he goes, and then he goes, how about a partnership?

37:25

And then he just keeps going. And he's like, here's how about this? I'll give you a hundred million dollars for the business. You are now

And then he just keeps going. And he's like, here's how about this? I'll give you a hundred million dollars for the business. You are now

37:32

you're fiduciary responsibilities

you're fiduciary responsibilities

37:34

is you have to present this to your board. You know,

is you have to present this to your board. You know,

37:37

you know that. Let's go. And then you go. You go, okay. Interesting strategy.

you know that. Let's go. And then you go. You go, okay. Interesting strategy.

37:43

Best of luck. And he goes, so do you accept the offer?

Best of luck. And he goes, so do you accept the offer?

37:47

And then he then he devolves into Alright, Dan. I'm gonna create a competitor.

And then he then he devolves into Alright, Dan. I'm gonna create a competitor.

37:52

Have you seen this competitor launch? Is he, is he in your lunch yet or what? Surprise. Surprise. We're, yeah, we're tracking religiously to see when this launches. But, yeah, nothing nothing. Yeah. There's a thing you should give them back. Be like, hey, How's it going, man?

Have you seen this competitor launch? Is he, is he in your lunch yet or what? Surprise. Surprise. We're, yeah, we're tracking religiously to see when this launches. But, yeah, nothing nothing. Yeah. There's a thing you should give them back. Be like, hey, How's it going, man?

38:07

Just curious about the launch details.

Just curious about the launch details.

38:10

Yeah. Yeah. No. That was that was atypical. I think most of my my DMs are are nice. Yeah. That one is a little a little out there. What would you do with the money now if you sold?

Yeah. Yeah. No. That was that was atypical. I think most of my my DMs are are nice. Yeah. That one is a little a little out there. What would you do with the money now if you sold?

38:21

I mean,

I mean,

38:23

I think the thing I'd do is I wanna build a school of entrepreneurial.

I think the thing I'd do is I wanna build a school of entrepreneurial.

38:28

Like, I think education is broken.

Like, I think education is broken.

38:31

And so I think, like, kids should just learn how to build businesses and not go to college. And so that's what I do. And I think there's a bunch of colleges that are struggling that I could go buy. Like, I I plot and build, like, a dope campus for for a bunch of, like, high achieving kids, and we'll just, like, go figure How how much would that take? I have no idea. I have no idea. This is, like But you'll have it. This is my distant dream, but, yeah, I I think, like,

And so I think, like, kids should just learn how to build businesses and not go to college. And so that's what I do. And I think there's a bunch of colleges that are struggling that I could go buy. Like, I I plot and build, like, a dope campus for for a bunch of, like, high achieving kids, and we'll just, like, go figure How how much would that take? I have no idea. I have no idea. This is, like But you'll have it. This is my distant dream, but, yeah, I I think, like,

38:54

I just read a a great book called the case against education,

I just read a a great book called the case against education,

38:58

that kind of breaks this down, and it's really interesting. And,

that kind of breaks this down, and it's really interesting. And,

39:01

yeah, I think it's, like, I think there's an interesting thing to be done there. And, and then, yeah, I'd love to, like, do some stuff in India along that lines. But, yeah, this will be my last

yeah, I think it's, like, I think there's an interesting thing to be done there. And, and then, yeah, I'd love to, like, do some stuff in India along that lines. But, yeah, this will be my last

39:11

true startup?

true startup?

39:13

I've I've looked into a bunch of,

I've I've looked into a bunch of,

39:16

I have, like, alerts set for colleges for sale because I had a a similar

I have, like, alerts set for colleges for sale because I had a a similar

39:20

dream an idea at at one point in time. I I haven't I now don't wanna do this, but,

dream an idea at at one point in time. I I haven't I now don't wanna do this, but,

39:25

it's amazing. You can buy full college campuses.

it's amazing. You can buy full college campuses.

39:29

For

For

39:30

sometimes single digit millions, sometimes just like ten to fifteen million dollars.

sometimes single digit millions, sometimes just like ten to fifteen million dollars.

39:35

It's crazy. Like, which ones? It has to be less than the the replacement cost

It's crazy. Like, which ones? It has to be less than the the replacement cost

39:40

of just the buildings and land on the in in in these these places. So So I am not sure why. And these are accredited universities

of just the buildings and land on the in in in these these places. So So I am not sure why. And these are accredited universities

39:47

that a lot of them are are they start as just, like, they do one, like, thing. It's like just cosmetology or just one whatever. There's like there's like those. Those are really cheap. Those are like, you know, one point five million. You can have a a, you know, university or college that does that. All the way up to here's a campus in New York for this, like, small liberal arts college that's not doing so well.

that a lot of them are are they start as just, like, they do one, like, thing. It's like just cosmetology or just one whatever. There's like there's like those. Those are really cheap. Those are like, you know, one point five million. You can have a a, you know, university or college that does that. All the way up to here's a campus in New York for this, like, small liberal arts college that's not doing so well.

40:08

And, like, you know, for fifteen million dollars, you could take the whole thing. And, is there like a marketplace for that? Is there a Zillow for bankrupt universities?

And, like, you know, for fifteen million dollars, you could take the whole thing. And, is there like a marketplace for that? Is there a Zillow for bankrupt universities?

40:16

There should be, but there's, there's one website called stream that happens to have most of them that I see. So deal stream will send me emails of one, like, you know, multi campus beauty school. Here you go. You know, that just got this email two days ago.

There should be, but there's, there's one website called stream that happens to have most of them that I see. So deal stream will send me emails of one, like, you know, multi campus beauty school. Here you go. You know, that just got this email two days ago.

40:31

What made you sour on this idea, Sean?

What made you sour on this idea, Sean?

40:34

Just like the lifestyle component. I was like, would I, like, would I wanna actually if I was gonna do this, it was like, okay. I'm gonna basically go be the dean of this school, and I'm gonna, like, basically, this will be my baby. And, I will make this great. And I was like, oh, it's a lot easier to just, like, have a business that I could just do on my phone and my laptop, you know, four hours a day and not worry about this and just hang out with my kids and and, you know, have fun. And so I was like, okay. Yeah. There's an all in version of entrepreneurship that I'm no longer

Just like the lifestyle component. I was like, would I, like, would I wanna actually if I was gonna do this, it was like, okay. I'm gonna basically go be the dean of this school, and I'm gonna, like, basically, this will be my baby. And, I will make this great. And I was like, oh, it's a lot easier to just, like, have a business that I could just do on my phone and my laptop, you know, four hours a day and not worry about this and just hang out with my kids and and, you know, have fun. And so I was like, okay. Yeah. There's an all in version of entrepreneurship that I'm no longer

41:03

like, super interested in because that would require,

like, super interested in because that would require,

41:07

you know, same thing. Like, I'd rather do this podcast

you know, same thing. Like, I'd rather do this podcast

41:10

than go speak at events. I think in the last three years, I got invited to speak at maybe a hundred and fifty events. And I've said yes to two of them. Right? Like, you know, so it's like, you could make good money and grow your audience doing this, but,

than go speak at events. I think in the last three years, I got invited to speak at maybe a hundred and fifty events. And I've said yes to two of them. Right? Like, you know, so it's like, you could make good money and grow your audience doing this, but,

41:24

seems like a lot of work, you know.

seems like a lot of work, you know.

41:27

I think I'll try to just win the way I want. Sean, have you ever, have you read the blog post that Anan made years ago about, I think your father or someone in your family got sick and they couldn't run their factory in India anymore, and you had to go. Did you have to run the factory? I have it right now. His his dad Yeah. My father passed away in April twenty seventeen, and so he had a chemical business in India. And,

I think I'll try to just win the way I want. Sean, have you ever, have you read the blog post that Anan made years ago about, I think your father or someone in your family got sick and they couldn't run their factory in India anymore, and you had to go. Did you have to run the factory? I have it right now. His his dad Yeah. My father passed away in April twenty seventeen, and so he had a chemical business in India. And,

41:50

yeah, you know, like, he built it over many years and, and, like, I was like, I can't just let it go to zero. So I ran it while I was running CBI for about eighteen months. The the title of the blog post is how to manage and sell a company in an industry and a company in a country, you don't know.

yeah, you know, like, he built it over many years and, and, like, I was like, I can't just let it go to zero. So I ran it while I was running CBI for about eighteen months. The the title of the blog post is how to manage and sell a company in an industry and a company in a country, you don't know.

42:06

And,

And,

42:08

it's kinda great. It's like a full,

it's kinda great. It's like a full,

42:10

like, full length sort of like, here's the whole thing.

like, full length sort of like, here's the whole thing.

42:14

Do you wanna tell, like, the short version of the story and then people can go read the blog?

Do you wanna tell, like, the short version of the story and then people can go read the blog?

42:18

Yeah. I mean, so

Yeah. I mean, so

42:20

he died on April seventeenth, twenty seventeen. And as we're going to cremate him, where Hindu and, this worker from the factory comes up to me in Hindi, my Hindi is pretty week, but I understand it. And the worker was basically, like, in, you know, what's gonna happen to us. Right? And I was, like, you know, I'm, like, a mess, but I was, like, Alright. I guess, like, there is this thing. And my mom and him basically built this business over twenty years, you know, kind of like a small chemical company. Like, nothing -- What's that mean? -- gargantuan.

he died on April seventeenth, twenty seventeen. And as we're going to cremate him, where Hindu and, this worker from the factory comes up to me in Hindi, my Hindi is pretty week, but I understand it. And the worker was basically, like, in, you know, what's gonna happen to us. Right? And I was, like, you know, I'm, like, a mess, but I was, like, Alright. I guess, like, there is this thing. And my mom and him basically built this business over twenty years, you know, kind of like a small chemical company. Like, nothing -- What's that mean? -- gargantuan.

42:48

In terms of size?

In terms of size?

42:49

No. Or chemical. What's a chemical? Oh, it was like a it was,

No. Or chemical. What's a chemical? Oh, it was like a it was,

42:53

it was it's in a sector called Fine Chemical. So it was a raw material that goes into perfumes and, like,

it was it's in a sector called Fine Chemical. So it was a raw material that goes into perfumes and, like,

43:00

flavors and fragrances.

flavors and fragrances.

43:01

Right? And so he built it One of three manufacturers

Right? And so he built it One of three manufacturers

43:05

in the world that could make this product is a really finicky product.

in the world that could make this product is a really finicky product.

43:08

And, like, I'm, like, alright. I guess I gotta run this. And, like, my dad was, like, a mad scientist. Like off the chart smart. And I'm, like, I'm not that. Right? And so,

And, like, I'm, like, alright. I guess I gotta run this. And, like, my dad was, like, a mad scientist. Like off the chart smart. And I'm, like, I'm not that. Right? And so,

43:18

so I'm, like, okay, what do I do here? Like, because I don't if something goes wrong in the factory, I can't help. So the only thing I can do is probably try to bring in more business. So I just went online in, like, cold called every

so I'm, like, okay, what do I do here? Like, because I don't if something goes wrong in the factory, I can't help. So the only thing I can do is probably try to bring in more business. So I just went online in, like, cold called every

43:30

large chemical company that's in this space. And I was like, hey, we make this product. If you ever need it, like, come,

large chemical company that's in this space. And I was like, hey, we make this product. If you ever need it, like, come,

43:37

you know, come talk to us. So we had, like, our best couple of quarters ever when I was running it. And left because you were doing outbound. And he he wasn't doing any, or he just wasn't doing it well? My dad was just, like, he was a saw he was like a product guy. So he's like, the best product will win. Right? And, like Put this put this picture up on the YouTube channel of the blog post where it's it's side of the building, it looks like. And it just says,

you know, come talk to us. So we had, like, our best couple of quarters ever when I was running it. And left because you were doing outbound. And he he wasn't doing any, or he just wasn't doing it well? My dad was just, like, he was a saw he was like a product guy. So he's like, the best product will win. Right? And, like Put this put this picture up on the YouTube channel of the blog post where it's it's side of the building, it looks like. And it just says,

44:00

on one side, good quality. And then there's the giant equal sign, and then it just says Good business.

on one side, good quality. And then there's the giant equal sign, and then it just says Good business.

44:06

And that's like the it looks like as is that the side of the building as you approach to walk in? It's just like, hey, reminder. I was entering the factory. Yeah. Good equality equals good business

And that's like the it looks like as is that the side of the building as you approach to walk in? It's just like, hey, reminder. I was entering the factory. Yeah. Good equality equals good business

44:17

in, like, times new Roman font.

in, like, times new Roman font.

44:19

Oh my gosh. This is awesome.

Oh my gosh. This is awesome.

44:22

But, yeah, I was just, like, I can try to go sell because I can't help on the technical side.

But, yeah, I was just, like, I can try to go sell because I can't help on the technical side.

44:27

The team he had assembled was awesome. So they've kept the factory running.

The team he had assembled was awesome. So they've kept the factory running.

44:31

You know, got had good sales. People kept reaching out to buy it. You know, a lot of them, like, you know, when somebody once the proprietor dies, like, a lot of bottom feeders show up, So I was just, like, trying to make sure that these weren't those people because I wanted to make sure the team landed on their feet. And then, yeah, just navigated through it. Met a bank a banker was representing the buyer. They were above board people, and yeah, after eighteen months. For a while, because I'm, like, insanely

You know, got had good sales. People kept reaching out to buy it. You know, a lot of them, like, you know, when somebody once the proprietor dies, like, a lot of bottom feeders show up, So I was just, like, trying to make sure that these weren't those people because I wanted to make sure the team landed on their feet. And then, yeah, just navigated through it. Met a bank a banker was representing the buyer. They were above board people, and yeah, after eighteen months. For a while, because I'm, like, insanely

44:55

ambitious. I was, like, oh, I'll have, like, CBI as the data arm, and I'll have, like, this industrial arm, and we'll build that. And then, like, you know It'd be a fucking tycoon.

ambitious. I was, like, oh, I'll have, like, CBI as the data arm, and I'll have, like, this industrial arm, and we'll build that. And then, like, you know It'd be a fucking tycoon.

45:05

Yeah. Well, I mean, for, you know, and then I was, like, telling my wife, I was like, yo, we gotta have more kids because, like, if we wanna build you gotta, like, you gotta have a lot of kids to, like, take this take all these, these arms are this industrial conglomerate up, and she's, like, you're insane.

Yeah. Well, I mean, for, you know, and then I was, like, telling my wife, I was like, yo, we gotta have more kids because, like, if we wanna build you gotta, like, you gotta have a lot of kids to, like, take this take all these, these arms are this industrial conglomerate up, and she's, like, you're insane.

45:19

And then, and then, yeah, like, ten weeks here or or six weeks here, ten days in India, like, I mean, yeah, like, that was brutal. So then I was just like, alright, I gotta sell this. And then I was fortunate to sell it, and the team's still all there. And, you know, everything worked out. So What did you sell it for?

And then, and then, yeah, like, ten weeks here or or six weeks here, ten days in India, like, I mean, yeah, like, that was brutal. So then I was just like, alright, I gotta sell this. And then I was fortunate to sell it, and the team's still all there. And, you know, everything worked out. So What did you sell it for?

45:35

I can't disclose.

I can't disclose.

45:36

A good? I mean, like, a good amount.

A good? I mean, like, a good amount.

45:39

Yeah. It was

Yeah. It was

45:40

it was, you know, I wasn't optimizing

it was, you know, I wasn't optimizing

45:43

for the dollars. I was optimizing for a clean deal to a person who would not fire everybody that my dad built the business with.

for the dollars. I was optimizing for a clean deal to a person who would not fire everybody that my dad built the business with.

45:51

So you know, so I'm sure I could have gone to somebody else who to, like, torn it down and, you know, done other things with it, but I felt really good about these guys. So, yeah, I think it, like, it achieved

So you know, so I'm sure I could have gone to somebody else who to, like, torn it down and, you know, done other things with it, but I felt really good about these guys. So, yeah, I think it, like, it achieved

46:01

non financial objectives, and I think were more important to my mom and to me than maybe the financial objectives.

non financial objectives, and I think were more important to my mom and to me than maybe the financial objectives.

46:06

This is a really, really good blog post. You have. And it kinda got lost over the years. You guys gotta share this again more.

This is a really, really good blog post. You have. And it kinda got lost over the years. You guys gotta share this again more.

46:13

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, yeah, it was the team at CBI, I gotta give them credit. Like, I mean, I was kind of an absentee CEO for a little bit, and they, like, kept trains running on time. So, yeah, it was It was a it was a good,

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, yeah, it was the team at CBI, I gotta give them credit. Like, I mean, I was kind of an absentee CEO for a little bit, and they, like, kept trains running on time. So, yeah, it was It was a it was a good,

46:24

a a good thing to accomplish. I was glad glad to get you. You had you had some, like, takeaways on the M and A process

a a good thing to accomplish. I was glad glad to get you. You had you had some, like, takeaways on the M and A process

46:30

I'm I'll just read the headlines, but you could decide which one of these you think you have a a strong point of view on or strong message to to deliver here. So You said, should I have hired an investment bank? And you're like, I didn't have one. I represent myself. Maybe I should have.

I'm I'll just read the headlines, but you could decide which one of these you think you have a a strong point of view on or strong message to to deliver here. So You said, should I have hired an investment bank? And you're like, I didn't have one. I represent myself. Maybe I should have.

46:44

You said don't let lawyers run the process. So lawyers are often trying to mitigate risk, but it's easy to just, like, have everybody

You said don't let lawyers run the process. So lawyers are often trying to mitigate risk, but it's easy to just, like, have everybody

46:51

get entrenched in, like, you know, risk management and not actually have the deal go through.

get entrenched in, like, you know, risk management and not actually have the deal go through.

46:56

Don't sweat the small stuff.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

46:58

Quote, the industry standard is a phrase to watch out for. So give me your thoughts on one of these industry standard one I think is, like, the one that,

Quote, the industry standard is a phrase to watch out for. So give me your thoughts on one of these industry standard one I think is, like, the one that,

47:07

like, I hate because, like,

like, I hate because, like,

47:09

people only use that when

people only use that when

47:11

They can't justify the term. They just say like, oh, no. No. But that's just industry standard. How we do things?

They can't justify the term. They just say like, oh, no. No. But that's just industry standard. How we do things?

47:17

We always do things that way. There's no such thing as industry standard. Right? Like, if it's it's if it's good for you,

We always do things that way. There's no such thing as industry standard. Right? Like, if it's it's if it's good for you,

47:23

then it's what you should aim for. And that, you know, it's somewhat somewhat counter to the sweat, the small stuff thing. So you don't wanna negotiate on every little thing, but When I hear it's industry standard, like, my ears always perk up, because it's, like, somebody's, like, trying to get one over on me on this. Right? Or they're just trying to, like, make it the sweep just under the rug. So I think that's an important one.

then it's what you should aim for. And that, you know, it's somewhat somewhat counter to the sweat, the small stuff thing. So you don't wanna negotiate on every little thing, but When I hear it's industry standard, like, my ears always perk up, because it's, like, somebody's, like, trying to get one over on me on this. Right? Or they're just trying to, like, make it the sweep just under the rug. So I think that's an important one.

47:43

You know, sweat the small stuff. I think, like, put some stuff in that you wanna negotiate on that you don't care about. That you're just willing to give on. Right? But, like, you know, just don't make the pay you know, don't make the negotiations

You know, sweat the small stuff. I think, like, put some stuff in that you wanna negotiate on that you don't care about. That you're just willing to give on. Right? But, like, you know, just don't make the pay you know, don't make the negotiations

47:54

super painful in all regards. On bankers, like, I think for this deal, it didn't make sense to use a banker. And I have I mean, with CVI, I have a bunch of data on, like, what comps are and all that stuff. So I had it was good enough, and it wasn't a big enough deal that I wanted to, like, cut in somebody for, you know, five, seven percent, you know, if CBI was doing a deal now, like, we'd have absolutely have a banker because I I've definitely seen, like, the value of what a great banker offers.

super painful in all regards. On bankers, like, I think for this deal, it didn't make sense to use a banker. And I have I mean, with CVI, I have a bunch of data on, like, what comps are and all that stuff. So I had it was good enough, and it wasn't a big enough deal that I wanted to, like, cut in somebody for, you know, five, seven percent, you know, if CBI was doing a deal now, like, we'd have absolutely have a banker because I I've definitely seen, like, the value of what a great banker offers.

48:20

But, yeah, I mean, I think the the industry standard stuff is probably the thing. Like, Anytime you hear that, I think an entrepreneur should, like, just wonder, like, okay, why are they just pushing for industry standard in this particular area? Because It usually

But, yeah, I mean, I think the the industry standard stuff is probably the thing. Like, Anytime you hear that, I think an entrepreneur should, like, just wonder, like, okay, why are they just pushing for industry standard in this particular area? Because It usually

48:34

it's always industry standard to the benefit of the person across the table. It's never industry standard and good for you.

it's always industry standard to the benefit of the person across the table. It's never industry standard and good for you.

48:40

And so that's one I I would definitely push on.

And so that's one I I would definitely push on.

48:44

Can we,

Can we,

48:45

one thing happened over the weekend, Sean, that you and I had talked about, and I actually think a good time to talk about it now because I have a feeling that Anan's gonna know a little bit about it. Do you remember,

one thing happened over the weekend, Sean, that you and I had talked about, and I actually think a good time to talk about it now because I have a feeling that Anan's gonna know a little bit about it. Do you remember,

48:55

probably two months ago, we talked about this guide name, Gautam Adani, I think his name is. You know what I'm talking about?

probably two months ago, we talked about this guide name, Gautam Adani, I think his name is. You know what I'm talking about?

49:02

You were like

You were like

49:04

I mean, you you're not to blame. We were just using the news, and you were like, this guy's amazing. Look at what he's doing. He kinda looks like an Indian Mario guy, and he's like, doing all this cool stuff where he's, like, doesn't really care about looking cool, and he gives his money away yada yada yada. And now he's, like, the third or first richest man in the world. The news was, I think he had gotten to second or third richest man in the world. And I didn't think most people knew his name. It says, hey, this is Guy Adani. Here's what he does. I think we even said it. I don't remember really saying this, but a lot of people DM being like, you guys called

I mean, you you're not to blame. We were just using the news, and you were like, this guy's amazing. Look at what he's doing. He kinda looks like an Indian Mario guy, and he's like, doing all this cool stuff where he's, like, doesn't really care about looking cool, and he gives his money away yada yada yada. And now he's, like, the third or first richest man in the world. The news was, I think he had gotten to second or third richest man in the world. And I didn't think most people knew his name. It says, hey, this is Guy Adani. Here's what he does. I think we even said it. I don't remember really saying this, but a lot of people DM being like, you guys called

49:36

it because news came out that there's, like, some fraud going on or whatever with their company And I guess we had said something that was, like, you know,

it because news came out that there's, like, some fraud going on or whatever with their company And I guess we had said something that was, like, you know,

49:44

either this is just amazing or,

either this is just amazing or,

49:47

you know, you never know because of, I don't I we have to go back and listen. I I'm not sure what the what the clip was, but a lot of people, like, you guys called that, which Yeah. I people were saying the tune. I'm like, I said thanks, but I don't have to remember. Don't remember on that. I do remember when I was reading about it, it was a lot of people were like, hey, this is kind of a shell game. Like, he's basically raising money

you know, you never know because of, I don't I we have to go back and listen. I I'm not sure what the what the clip was, but a lot of people, like, you guys called that, which Yeah. I people were saying the tune. I'm like, I said thanks, but I don't have to remember. Don't remember on that. I do remember when I was reading about it, it was a lot of people were like, hey, this is kind of a shell game. Like, he's basically raising money

50:05

He's raising money in one company using the, like, basic borrowing against another company that he owns, and that company's borrowing against another company that he owns. And he had, like, so many entities that were each Sort of like,

He's raising money in one company using the, like, basic borrowing against another company that he owns, and that company's borrowing against another company that he owns. And he had, like, so many entities that were each Sort of like,

50:17

the justification for the next, in terms of either the valuation or borrowing money or what whatever it was. I don't I mean, this is a couple months ago. I don't remember what the detail were. But I think we just said that as a footnote. It's not like we were calling him out on anything. And people are giving us a little more credit than we deserved on that one. So, sorry to interrupt you, Sam. So we were both saying that. That's the back. That's the background. So, I think on Friday, Hindenburg Research. I think they're a short seller. So they they short companies

the justification for the next, in terms of either the valuation or borrowing money or what whatever it was. I don't I mean, this is a couple months ago. I don't remember what the detail were. But I think we just said that as a footnote. It's not like we were calling him out on anything. And people are giving us a little more credit than we deserved on that one. So, sorry to interrupt you, Sam. So we were both saying that. That's the back. That's the background. So, I think on Friday, Hindenburg Research. I think they're a short seller. So they they short companies

50:42

but they produce scathing reports. And they've done this a dozen times. I I I can't I'm sure, Anan, you probably know some of their examples. But they're just, like, known for these really good reports, well, they'll write and say, this company, we think is total bullshit. Here's why, and then it tanks. And, obviously, they are in financially incentivized to for it to tank. But as far as I'm concerned, I I think some of the research is actually kinda spot on sometimes, and and they have, like, a good track record. But, Anad, have you followed this? I followed it a little bit. I mean, I like Hindenburg because I think, like, there's, like, we live in, like, the age of drifters. And so, like, you need people And I don't know if Adani is, but I think, like, you need people like Hindenburg who, like, you know, or coffees Villa or, like, Wendover productions or any of these folks are out there even on YouTube or trying to hold and at least shine a light on some of the griftiness that's out there. And so I, you know, I like what they do in at a high level. I don't know if they're cased with Adonis, like, a good one or a bad one. But yeah. Yeah. Well, basically, they they said, like, the entire company

but they produce scathing reports. And they've done this a dozen times. I I I can't I'm sure, Anan, you probably know some of their examples. But they're just, like, known for these really good reports, well, they'll write and say, this company, we think is total bullshit. Here's why, and then it tanks. And, obviously, they are in financially incentivized to for it to tank. But as far as I'm concerned, I I think some of the research is actually kinda spot on sometimes, and and they have, like, a good track record. But, Anad, have you followed this? I followed it a little bit. I mean, I like Hindenburg because I think, like, there's, like, we live in, like, the age of drifters. And so, like, you need people And I don't know if Adani is, but I think, like, you need people like Hindenburg who, like, you know, or coffees Villa or, like, Wendover productions or any of these folks are out there even on YouTube or trying to hold and at least shine a light on some of the griftiness that's out there. And so I, you know, I like what they do in at a high level. I don't know if they're cased with Adonis, like, a good one or a bad one. But yeah. Yeah. Well, basically, they they said, like, the entire company

51:42

like, there's a bunch of weird things going on with it,

like, there's a bunch of weird things going on with it,

51:45

of all the like, he they list all these companies, and each person that runs one of the companies is one of his, like, relatives or former executives. So it's all, like, kinda, like,

of all the like, he they list all these companies, and each person that runs one of the companies is one of his, like, relatives or former executives. So it's all, like, kinda, like,

51:56

it's kinda, like, his cronies are kinda, like, running everything. And, yeah, he's, like, loaning

it's kinda, like, his cronies are kinda, like, running everything. And, yeah, he's, like, loaning

52:01

money

money

52:02

from other companies that he owns, and he's making the valuations of each of those companies really high. And so it turns out it's a it's basically like a little

from other companies that he owns, and he's making the valuations of each of those companies really high. And so it turns out it's a it's basically like a little

52:10

FTX

FTX

52:11

desk where, of just like similar

desk where, of just like similar

52:14

entities that he owns loaning money

entities that he owns loaning money

52:17

to other entities

to other entities

52:18

with the collateral being

with the collateral being

52:20

a company that he values himself,

a company that he values himself,

52:23

among other things. And so, anyway, I thought you guys would have, like, an interesting take on this because

among other things. And so, anyway, I thought you guys would have, like, an interesting take on this because

52:28

don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I spent a little time in India. You're in the finance world. I wasn't sure if you if you had an opinion there. Yeah. No. I I don't have an opinion on that. I I will say, like, when you see, like, org structures that are really convoluted, like, you know, FTX

don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I spent a little time in India. You're in the finance world. I wasn't sure if you if you had an opinion there. Yeah. No. I I don't have an opinion on that. I I will say, like, when you see, like, org structures that are really convoluted, like, you know, FTX

52:41

or Adani or Enron before that. Like, people always, like, in the moment or just, all these guys are geniuses. They figured out how to move stuff and do x, y, and z. And then when you look back, it's always like, no. It was just like a giant Shell game, you know, Sean said, like, that that that's an interesting

or Adani or Enron before that. Like, people always, like, in the moment or just, all these guys are geniuses. They figured out how to move stuff and do x, y, and z. And then when you look back, it's always like, no. It was just like a giant Shell game, you know, Sean said, like, that that that's an interesting

52:56

lens I think to look at companies through. And it's, like, the innovation isn't the product. The innovation is, like,

lens I think to look at companies through. And it's, like, the innovation isn't the product. The innovation is, like,

53:03

cap structure or some weird thing. It's like, okay. That's a weird that's a kind of a weird business to build, right, where, like, that's

cap structure or some weird thing. It's like, okay. That's a weird that's a kind of a weird business to build, right, where, like, that's

53:10

you're innovating on. It's like companies that innovate in HR. Right? Like, I'm always just, like, you know, they're doing all these weird things. It's like, don't you have to build a product? Like, why are you doing, like, three point five days of work and, like, you know, all this weird shit. It's just like, why don't you just work and, like, build a product? So Have you been able to capture,

you're innovating on. It's like companies that innovate in HR. Right? Like, I'm always just, like, you know, they're doing all these weird things. It's like, don't you have to build a product? Like, why are you doing, like, three point five days of work and, like, you know, all this weird shit. It's just like, why don't you just work and, like, build a product? So Have you been able to capture,

53:27

or, like, catch any scams? Just, or, like, make any right predictions

or, like, catch any scams? Just, or, like, make any right predictions

53:31

based off the data that you guys have?

based off the data that you guys have?

53:34

Yeah. I mean, we don't we don't publish that stuff. We usually send it to media. Right? Cause we're not like a media outlet, but we'll find stuff where we're like, you know, this company raised at I'm not gonna name, but there was a company recently that raised, like, at a four billion dollar valuation. And then when you looked at, like, the founders and you looked at, like,

Yeah. I mean, we don't we don't publish that stuff. We usually send it to media. Right? Cause we're not like a media outlet, but we'll find stuff where we're like, you know, this company raised at I'm not gonna name, but there was a company recently that raised, like, at a four billion dollar valuation. And then when you looked at, like, the founders and you looked at, like,

53:51

the number of employees and everything. It was like something's off here. Right? And so, you know, and so, like, we would send it to somebody and say, like, hey, like, this looks odd. Like, you should go do what journalists do and dig into it. So we'll find stuff that's a little

the number of employees and everything. It was like something's off here. Right? And so, you know, and so, like, we would send it to somebody and say, like, hey, like, this looks odd. Like, you should go do what journalists do and dig into it. So we'll find stuff that's a little

54:07

odd at times. And then, you know, I think the more interest thing sometimes is, like, you'll dig into

odd at times. And then, you know, I think the more interest thing sometimes is, like, you'll dig into

54:12

filings of companies after they've been acquired by a public company.

filings of companies after they've been acquired by a public company.

54:15

And you see it's not this isn't like a a scam or anything, but you just see, like, you know, hot company that says they got acquired, and then you actually see how much the public company paid for them. And it's, like, you know, one eighth of what they raised. Right? And so, like, you just sort of get it shines a light on, like, what was a real success versus what isn't. I think that's probably what we tend see more, you know, people who are wanna do fraud or, like, if they're good, they're hard to catch period. Right? Like, it's just not something that is not where we spend our time. Also, some of these things, like, the same exact signal that later you look at, and you say, oh, man, we should have known something was you said, at the beginning, it's a sign of of the genius

And you see it's not this isn't like a a scam or anything, but you just see, like, you know, hot company that says they got acquired, and then you actually see how much the public company paid for them. And it's, like, you know, one eighth of what they raised. Right? And so, like, you just sort of get it shines a light on, like, what was a real success versus what isn't. I think that's probably what we tend see more, you know, people who are wanna do fraud or, like, if they're good, they're hard to catch period. Right? Like, it's just not something that is not where we spend our time. Also, some of these things, like, the same exact signal that later you look at, and you say, oh, man, we should have known something was you said, at the beginning, it's a sign of of the genius

54:56

of the, of what's going on. Like,

of the, of what's going on. Like,

54:58

I know with FTX

I know with FTX

55:00

there was a a bunch of things that now, people are like, wow.

there was a a bunch of things that now, people are like, wow.

55:04

This is you know, those should have been red flags, but at the same time, those are the things that in stories they were saying were like kind of the

This is you know, those should have been red flags, but at the same time, those are the things that in stories they were saying were like kind of the

55:11

the remarkable things about, about them, like, you know,

the remarkable things about, about them, like, you know,

55:15

for example, the

for example, the

55:17

You know, like, oh, the the they, you know, they get they they all sleep in the same house and on beanbags and whatever. And now it's like, oh, they had this weird, like, inappropriate

You know, like, oh, the the they, you know, they get they they all sleep in the same house and on beanbags and whatever. And now it's like, oh, they had this weird, like, inappropriate

55:26

you know, like, sort of like group dating thing going on, but it's like, at before that, it was like, these are just twenty something year olds that you know, are all, like, you know, living in this hacker house that are making it happen. It's like, no. If on one hand, it's one thing, and then then, like, you know, after it's exposed, it becomes labeled as another.

you know, like, sort of like group dating thing going on, but it's like, at before that, it was like, these are just twenty something year olds that you know, are all, like, you know, living in this hacker house that are making it happen. It's like, no. If on one hand, it's one thing, and then then, like, you know, after it's exposed, it becomes labeled as another.

55:44

And I've seen this with I've seen this many times where it's like, oh, you know, same thing. Sam Baker freed is this,

And I've seen this with I've seen this many times where it's like, oh, you know, same thing. Sam Baker freed is this,

55:51

sort of like this this, you know, this quirky genius,

sort of like this this, you know, this quirky genius,

55:55

and then he turns out to be this sort of, like, you know, this drugged up liar. It's like the same thing he was doing before where he's you know, taking whatever, you know, adderall or whatever the hell he's taking in order to, you know, stay up and trade. It was like, yeah, these guys are fueled by, you know, you know, red bull and whatever, and they're just working, you know, their their geniuses that are outsmarting everybody in the market to, like, their gamblers who were reckless and,

and then he turns out to be this sort of, like, you know, this drugged up liar. It's like the same thing he was doing before where he's you know, taking whatever, you know, adderall or whatever the hell he's taking in order to, you know, stay up and trade. It was like, yeah, these guys are fueled by, you know, you know, red bull and whatever, and they're just working, you know, their their geniuses that are outsmarting everybody in the market to, like, their gamblers who were reckless and,

56:20

we're not making good decisions because of, you know, their lifestyle and what they were choosing to do. And I've seen this this happen before. I remember with Tesla,

we're not making good decisions because of, you know, their lifestyle and what they were choosing to do. And I've seen this this happen before. I remember with Tesla,

56:27

there was a point in time where I think Tesla had had, like,

there was a point in time where I think Tesla had had, like,

56:31

ten or fifteen different CFOs.

ten or fifteen different CFOs.

56:34

And, my friend had told me this because I was, like, you know, I'm reading a lot of stuff online about how, like,

And, my friend had told me this because I was, like, you know, I'm reading a lot of stuff online about how, like,

56:39

There's might just be like some, you know, there's a lot of smoke. I don't know if there's a fire, but there's a lot of smoke about Tesla not being in good financial shape. What do you guys think? Yeah. What do you think about this? Am I am I overreacting to these, like, conspiracy theorists on Reddit and and Twitter?

There's might just be like some, you know, there's a lot of smoke. I don't know if there's a fire, but there's a lot of smoke about Tesla not being in good financial shape. What do you guys think? Yeah. What do you think about this? Am I am I overreacting to these, like, conspiracy theorists on Reddit and and Twitter?

56:53

And he's like, well, he's like, I noticed something interesting. He goes, I always have this phrase follow the CFOs. Like, the CFOs know the health of the business.

And he's like, well, he's like, I noticed something interesting. He goes, I always have this phrase follow the CFOs. Like, the CFOs know the health of the business.

57:00

And what you never wanna see was what was happening with Tesla, which was like a rotating door of CFOs that would come in for three to six months and then leave.

And what you never wanna see was what was happening with Tesla, which was like a rotating door of CFOs that would come in for three to six months and then leave.

57:09

And secondly,

And secondly,

57:11

like, the new CFO, it's like, the shy twenty four year old or twenty six year old that's, you know, now Tesla's CFO. Wow. He's amazing. The same thing happened at FTX. I remember when we we did we were, they were sponsoring us for something. And the guy who was paying us,

like, the new CFO, it's like, the shy twenty four year old or twenty six year old that's, you know, now Tesla's CFO. Wow. He's amazing. The same thing happened at FTX. I remember when we we did we were, they were sponsoring us for something. And the guy who was paying us,

57:28

was their head of strategy. And we, you know, I I didn't go on the call, but I asked that later. I was like, was he like, you know, super sharp or what was that guy's story?

was their head of strategy. And we, you know, I I didn't go on the call, but I asked that later. I was like, was he like, you know, super sharp or what was that guy's story?

57:35

He goes, yeah, he's twenty he's twenty three years old or twenty four years old. And he started as whatever. And now he's promoted. He's like the he's the head of strategy for all of FTX.

He goes, yeah, he's twenty he's twenty three years old or twenty four years old. And he started as whatever. And now he's promoted. He's like the he's the head of strategy for all of FTX.

57:44

And again, it was like, wow. That's crazy. I guess they're just a real tocrisy around there. And they just, you know, it's a land of equal opportunity, and this guy just proved his worth. Or it's like,

And again, it was like, wow. That's crazy. I guess they're just a real tocrisy around there. And they just, you know, it's a land of equal opportunity, and this guy just proved his worth. Or it's like,

57:53

no. This is his college buddy, he's not gonna ask too many questions, and he could just trust him to just do whatever and say whatever. Right? Like, these things from the outside. I remember reading articles about this Wonder kid, And, and then later, it's, like, a bad thing. And you were right about the CFO thing with Tesla at that time. Were weren't weren't they on the brink?

no. This is his college buddy, he's not gonna ask too many questions, and he could just trust him to just do whatever and say whatever. Right? Like, these things from the outside. I remember reading articles about this Wonder kid, And, and then later, it's, like, a bad thing. And you were right about the CFO thing with Tesla at that time. Were weren't weren't they on the brink?

58:10

Well, people don't talk about that much now, but it did seem like they were on the brink or, you know,

Well, people don't talk about that much now, but it did seem like they were on the brink or, you know,

58:16

just, you know, narrowly survived either either properly or improperly. I'm not sure, but, like, later, I remember one one,

just, you know, narrowly survived either either properly or improperly. I'm not sure, but, like, later, I remember one one,

58:23

interview Elon

interview Elon

58:24

finally admitted it. He he was like, We were six weeks away from, like, you know, the show being over for Tesla when they were having the model three production ramp.

finally admitted it. He he was like, We were six weeks away from, like, you know, the show being over for Tesla when they were having the model three production ramp.

58:33

And,

And,

58:34

And he had said something in a separate interview that alarmed me as well, which was about,

And he had said something in a separate interview that alarmed me as well, which was about,

58:39

there was, like, some what's that famous, like, green, clean energy thing that Obama funded, like, like the Green New Deal or something? No. It was, like, six hundred million dollars to soy, vera, soylent, soylent, soylent,

there was, like, some what's that famous, like, green, clean energy thing that Obama funded, like, like the Green New Deal or something? No. It was, like, six hundred million dollars to soy, vera, soylent, soylent, soylent,

58:51

soylogen, I don't know what it was. Some company

soylogen, I don't know what it was. Some company

58:54

that, got a bunch of money and it failed. And, like, up until the day they declared bankruptcy, it was like, we're we're good. I don't know what you guys are talking about.

that, got a bunch of money and it failed. And, like, up until the day they declared bankruptcy, it was like, we're we're good. I don't know what you guys are talking about.

59:03

And

And

59:04

Salindra. That's exactly right.

Salindra. That's exactly right.

59:06

And they asked Elon about that. Like, you know, just clean energy, get a bad because of the, you know, the problems with Silendra and others. People say it's hard to make new tech work and all this stuff. And he said something in a in a separate interview where he was like,

And they asked Elon about that. Like, you know, just clean energy, get a bad because of the, you know, the problems with Silendra and others. People say it's hard to make new tech work and all this stuff. And he said something in a in a separate interview where he was like,

59:20

are they supposed to say? As soon as they if they ever admitted any weakness, the stock would tank and it would guarantee their demise.

are they supposed to say? As soon as they if they ever admitted any weakness, the stock would tank and it would guarantee their demise.

59:27

Like, they have to say

Like, they have to say

59:29

It's all good. You guys are nuts.

It's all good. You guys are nuts.

59:32

Whether they are or aren't because the other one is is it it it will tank their stock and they will die for sure. It'll look celebrate their death. So then I was like, well, you can't believe anything this guy says about how Tesla's doing if that's his mentality when they're, you know, I'm reading these things about how they might be on the brink. He's saying they're all fine, but he even says that that's the CEO's job

Whether they are or aren't because the other one is is it it it will tank their stock and they will die for sure. It'll look celebrate their death. So then I was like, well, you can't believe anything this guy says about how Tesla's doing if that's his mentality when they're, you know, I'm reading these things about how they might be on the brink. He's saying they're all fine, but he even says that that's the CEO's job

59:51

in this situation. So now, you know, what to do. That's a long story short about why I sold my Tesla stock too early. Yeah. I I do think, like, there's the signal that I look for, it's not in the data is, like, the narrative when it's, like, a crazy founder married.

in this situation. So now, you know, what to do. That's a long story short about why I sold my Tesla stock too early. Yeah. I I do think, like, there's the signal that I look for, it's not in the data is, like, the narrative when it's, like, a crazy founder married.

01:00:05

Like,

Like,

01:00:06

like, they were in Southeast Asia living in a monastery, and they talk about, like, their clothing choices. Like, that's always a weird one. Right? When it's, like, not gonna talk about the business. We're gonna talk about, like, where some, like, moleskin t shirt made from, like, you know Yeah. But it it worked with Zuck.

like, they were in Southeast Asia living in a monastery, and they talk about, like, their clothing choices. Like, that's always a weird one. Right? When it's, like, not gonna talk about the business. We're gonna talk about, like, where some, like, moleskin t shirt made from, like, you know Yeah. But it it worked with Zuck.

01:00:22

Yeah. But he wasn't, like, he built a product to start. He wasn't known for his, like, weird

Yeah. But he wasn't, like, he built a product to start. He wasn't known for his, like, weird

01:00:26

I I think it's the key thing when you can't

I I think it's the key thing when you can't

01:00:29

see the product or the or the financials. Right? Like, like, for a lot of these things where it's like, is the product legit

see the product or the or the financials. Right? Like, like, for a lot of these things where it's like, is the product legit

01:00:35

and is are the financials, like, visible. Right? But but even then, you can't, like, you know, FTX was a,

and is are the financials, like, visible. Right? But but even then, you can't, like, you know, FTX was a,

01:00:42

like, a real product that that people used. And

like, a real product that that people used. And

01:00:45

The financials

The financials

01:00:46

made sense at the time that, like, they were obviously gonna they're making money on every trade. Right? People doing a lot of crypto trading. How can they not make money?

made sense at the time that, like, they were obviously gonna they're making money on every trade. Right? People doing a lot of crypto trading. How can they not make money?

01:00:54

You know, it seemed like it would work in both cases.

You know, it seemed like it would work in both cases.

01:00:57

Another example on the FTX side, they had twenty five engineers.

Another example on the FTX side, they had twenty five engineers.

01:01:01

And I remember reading stories about how

And I remember reading stories about how

01:01:04

he was just like, yeah. We create, like, we're not like these Silicon Valley companies with all this bloat, coinbase has, like, you know, thousands of employees

he was just like, yeah. We create, like, we're not like these Silicon Valley companies with all this bloat, coinbase has, like, you know, thousands of employees

01:01:10

have a whole engineering team of twenty five, and we do more volume than them because we hire ten ex engineers.

have a whole engineering team of twenty five, and we do more volume than them because we hire ten ex engineers.

01:01:15

And we we go for extreme operational leverage. And later, it was like,

And we we go for extreme operational leverage. And later, it was like,

01:01:19

Of course, these guys had, like, terrible security practices and all the stuff. Like, they didn't even have the they they refused to even invest in engineering. Right? It's, like, the same story, the two sides of the same story once you once you know the result. Yeah. Hundred percent. I I do think there's signals when it I don't think fraud, but there's signals right now that companies are not doing well. Right? So, like, you'll see companies raise a a billion dollar valuation. And when we dig in, we see, like, the liquidation preference three x. But that stuff doesn't get reported. Right? Or you see the CRO or the CMO leaves every six months. Kinda, Dashawn's point on the CFO. Like, that indicates there's problems. It's not fraud. It's just like, hey, this company's not killing it the way outsiders might look at it. I think fraud's a tough one. I think underperformance

Of course, these guys had, like, terrible security practices and all the stuff. Like, they didn't even have the they they refused to even invest in engineering. Right? It's, like, the same story, the two sides of the same story once you once you know the result. Yeah. Hundred percent. I I do think there's signals when it I don't think fraud, but there's signals right now that companies are not doing well. Right? So, like, you'll see companies raise a a billion dollar valuation. And when we dig in, we see, like, the liquidation preference three x. But that stuff doesn't get reported. Right? Or you see the CRO or the CMO leaves every six months. Kinda, Dashawn's point on the CFO. Like, that indicates there's problems. It's not fraud. It's just like, hey, this company's not killing it the way outsiders might look at it. I think fraud's a tough one. I think underperformance

01:02:03

and and companies that are not doing well, that's a lot easier for us to figure out. What's a company that's impressed you? That we, most people don't talk because you guys see a bunch of companies that are that are interesting. What's a company that's, kind of flies out of the radar, but kinda secretly crushes it? I'm, like, data. It's gonna be it's probably gonna end up in the data world.

and and companies that are not doing well, that's a lot easier for us to figure out. What's a company that's impressed you? That we, most people don't talk because you guys see a bunch of companies that are that are interesting. What's a company that's, kind of flies out of the radar, but kinda secretly crushes it? I'm, like, data. It's gonna be it's probably gonna end up in the data world.

01:02:22

So let me think it's alright.

So let me think it's alright.

01:02:27

I don't know if anybody

I don't know if anybody

01:02:29

I will say, like, the area that I like right now, and I don't think these are great businesses, but I think, like, I think are interesting is, like, the

I will say, like, the area that I like right now, and I don't think these are great businesses, but I think, like, I think are interesting is, like, the

01:02:37

the the folks that are,

the the folks that are,

01:02:40

analyzing the grifters.

analyzing the grifters.

01:02:42

Right? Like, I really, like, love this space because I think there's something to be built here. Like, they're more media companies than they are. Great, big tech companies.

Right? Like, I really, like, love this space because I think there's something to be built here. Like, they're more media companies than they are. Great, big tech companies.

01:02:51

But there was, like, there's a couple that, like, are digging into, like, past and, like, the whole, like, evangelical pastor world. And, like, it's phenomenal, like, the stuff that they they do. So, like, that's probably the area I go down a lot. More in. And then, like, looking at the businesses of folks like Andrew Schultz and folks like that, like, you know, because I think there's a lot to learn how they do marketing and how they build audience. So I tend to look at businesses that I think we can learn from versus, like, just like random sort of businesses that are out there. What what what can a boring company like yours learn from Andrew Schultz?

But there was, like, there's a couple that, like, are digging into, like, past and, like, the whole, like, evangelical pastor world. And, like, it's phenomenal, like, the stuff that they they do. So, like, that's probably the area I go down a lot. More in. And then, like, looking at the businesses of folks like Andrew Schultz and folks like that, like, you know, because I think there's a lot to learn how they do marketing and how they build audience. So I tend to look at businesses that I think we can learn from versus, like, just like random sort of businesses that are out there. What what what can a boring company like yours learn from Andrew Schultz?

01:03:25

So the thing that So I think the thing that he's done really But I I was purposely insulting you in order to,

So the thing that So I think the thing that he's done really But I I was purposely insulting you in order to,

01:03:32

make make the average listener be like, oh, yeah. I bet that think the thing that he does really well is he doesn't just interview other comedians.

make make the average listener be like, oh, yeah. I bet that think the thing that he does really well is he doesn't just interview other comedians.

01:03:40

Right? I think he, like, he interviews other people who are kind of adjacent to him. Right? And so what he does then is he keeps expanding his audience. And I think most other folks, like, you know, like, I like Theo von. And Theo von is, like, interviewing other comedians. Right? But, like, he interviewed Neil Degrasse Tyson, and I bet you that brought him a whole bunch of new people. Right? And so I think that It was very funny. Yeah. It was awesome. And so this sort of, like, Shultz strategy of, like, adjacent

Right? I think he, like, he interviews other people who are kind of adjacent to him. Right? And so what he does then is he keeps expanding his audience. And I think most other folks, like, you know, like, I like Theo von. And Theo von is, like, interviewing other comedians. Right? But, like, he interviewed Neil Degrasse Tyson, and I bet you that brought him a whole bunch of new people. Right? And so I think that It was very funny. Yeah. It was awesome. And so this sort of, like, Shultz strategy of, like, adjacent

01:04:05

folks, I think, is really smart

folks, I think, is really smart

01:04:07

to bring in, like, the Venn diagram is not as heavily overlapped. And I think, like, he keeps building that way, which I think is really interesting. And so for us, like, it's always, like, who has audience that's not exactly our audience, but that has maybe a slight overlap. And but would those people kind of like us if they knew about us, right? And so it's kind of like thinking about partnerships there, whether it's newsletter partnerships, or whether it's, you know, research that we do, whatever it might be. So, yeah, I think, like, looking at what's happening in the sumer side of media is always interesting because that's where, like, the innovation tends to happen. It doesn't usually tend to happen in b to b.

to bring in, like, the Venn diagram is not as heavily overlapped. And I think, like, he keeps building that way, which I think is really interesting. And so for us, like, it's always, like, who has audience that's not exactly our audience, but that has maybe a slight overlap. And but would those people kind of like us if they knew about us, right? And so it's kind of like thinking about partnerships there, whether it's newsletter partnerships, or whether it's, you know, research that we do, whatever it might be. So, yeah, I think, like, looking at what's happening in the sumer side of media is always interesting because that's where, like, the innovation tends to happen. It doesn't usually tend to happen in b to b.

01:04:44

Well, dude, I appreciate you doing this. You're fun to talk to, Sean, what do you think? And we we only got through maybe half of the half of the short list ideas. So,

Well, dude, I appreciate you doing this. You're fun to talk to, Sean, what do you think? And we we only got through maybe half of the half of the short list ideas. So,

01:04:52

If people like this, we should do a part two

If people like this, we should do a part two

01:04:55

and, and do more. Do more of the ideas. Thanks for coming on, man. This is fun, and, appreciate, you know,

and, and do more. Do more of the ideas. Thanks for coming on, man. This is fun, and, appreciate, you know,

01:05:01

that you've been, you know,

that you've been, you know,

01:05:03

come I feel like I've seen you tweet about the show, you know, for a while now. So, you know, that's, a really appreciate that. That's one of the cool moments of this doing this for us is that people we respect

come I feel like I've seen you tweet about the show, you know, for a while now. So, you know, that's, a really appreciate that. That's one of the cool moments of this doing this for us is that people we respect

01:05:14

if they like our stuff too that gives you a little extra juice, a little extra wind in your sails to, to go out and keep going because it's it's different than just, oh, the numbers are going up, but numbers don't have that same kind of like

if they like our stuff too that gives you a little extra juice, a little extra wind in your sails to, to go out and keep going because it's it's different than just, oh, the numbers are going up, but numbers don't have that same kind of like

01:05:26

pull

pull

01:05:26

as, you know, somebody who you think is cool, you know, liking your stuff. And by the way, Anan, it's your fault. It's kinda my fault. It's most it's part your fault. Basically,

as, you know, somebody who you think is cool, you know, liking your stuff. And by the way, Anan, it's your fault. It's kinda my fault. It's most it's part your fault. Basically,

01:05:37

I get, like, lots of messages today, but, like, five of a day. It's usually a young man in his twenties, and he'll just message me and he'll say, let's fuck.

I get, like, lots of messages today, but, like, five of a day. It's usually a young man in his twenties, and he'll just message me and he'll say, let's fuck.

01:05:48

That's all I get.

That's all I get.

01:05:49

And the reason being

And the reason being

01:05:51

One time I was either on my way home

One time I was either on my way home

01:05:54

or en route to the airport, and I was to I hate flying, so I take a lot of Xan And so that's the only time I'm ever inebriated. And I was very high.

or en route to the airport, and I was to I hate flying, so I take a lot of Xan And so that's the only time I'm ever inebriated. And I was very high.

01:06:03

And I messaged you, and I said, I'm in your hood. Let's fuck. And you replied, like,

And I messaged you, and I said, I'm in your hood. Let's fuck. And you replied, like,

01:06:08

I'm down.

I'm down.

01:06:09

Like,

Like,

01:06:10

here's a restaurant, be be there, something like that. And I told that story,

here's a restaurant, be be there, something like that. And I told that story,

01:06:15

and,

and,

01:06:17

Now because of that, I've get I get a bunch of men messaging me that.

Now because of that, I've get I get a bunch of men messaging me that.

01:06:22

Living living the dream, Sam. You're living the dream. Someone's dream. Someone's dream. Not my dream, but someone's dream. Yeah. I'm living I'm living a person's dream.

Living living the dream, Sam. You're living the dream. Someone's dream. Someone's dream. Not my dream, but someone's dream. Yeah. I'm living I'm living a person's dream.

01:06:37

So,

So,

01:06:38

you're gonna play for that, but I appreciate you coming on. And,

you're gonna play for that, but I appreciate you coming on. And,

01:06:41

this is fun. We'll talk soon. Alright. Thanks guys.

this is fun. We'll talk soon. Alright. Thanks guys.

Sync with video