00:00

And then I googled like Mark Manson House because that's always like to tell. I'm like, is someone like crushing it because it's you can't really like it's hard to get a mortgage for fifteen million dollar cost unless you're actually raking it in. And it said, like, you know, Mark Manton sells tribeca condo for fourteen million dollars. And I'm, like, Damn.

And then I googled like Mark Manson House because that's always like to tell. I'm like, is someone like crushing it because it's you can't really like it's hard to get a mortgage for fifteen million dollar cost unless you're actually raking it in. And it said, like, you know, Mark Manton sells tribeca condo for fourteen million dollars. And I'm, like, Damn.

00:18

Like, I thought book the book business was a bad business. He must have crushed it. He must be making millions.

Like, I thought book the book business was a bad business. He must have crushed it. He must be making millions.

00:29

My man Ryan Holiday. How are you? Nice to talk to you.

My man Ryan Holiday. How are you? Nice to talk to you.

00:33

It's good to talk to you too.

It's good to talk to you too.

00:35

So you you you asked to come here, and I'll just because I just wanna get it out of the way. I wanna give you the love. You asked to come on here because, a, we're homies and I love you. Also because b, you have a book coming out. What's it called?

So you you you asked to come here, and I'll just because I just wanna get it out of the way. I wanna give you the love. You asked to come on here because, a, we're homies and I love you. Also because b, you have a book coming out. What's it called?

00:47

Discipline is Destiny. This is the new one for the series.

Discipline is Destiny. This is the new one for the series.

00:51

Yeah, it came out yesterday.

Yeah, it came out yesterday.

00:53

Oh, and how's it going so far?

Oh, and how's it going so far?

00:55

Really good. Really good. It should be significantly higher It's already significantly higher than the last one. And then

Really good. Really good. It should be significantly higher It's already significantly higher than the last one. And then

01:03

you're

you're

01:04

so I I I know where the numbers are, but I'm waiting Well, the one thing you don't know until

so I I I know where the numbers are, but I'm waiting Well, the one thing you don't know until

01:10

the end of the second week is

the end of the second week is

01:13

audiobook numbers.

audiobook numbers.

01:15

And,

And,

01:16

where it may or may not land on the best seller list.

where it may or may not land on the best seller list.

01:19

What do you think is the outcome of this one's gonna be?

What do you think is the outcome of this one's gonna be?

01:24

We'll probably come in a bit above forty thousand copies the first week. I would I would venture to guess. Could be higher if they keep trending this way. So

We'll probably come in a bit above forty thousand copies the first week. I would I would venture to guess. Could be higher if they keep trending this way. So

01:33

because I have my own bookstore and I did the sales through my own bookstore, I probably won't hit the Wall Street Journalist

because I have my own bookstore and I did the sales through my own bookstore, I probably won't hit the Wall Street Journalist

01:41

they've they, they skunked me last time. And then the New York Times list is,

they've they, they skunked me last time. And then the New York Times list is,

01:47

let's say, fifty fifty.

let's say, fifty fifty.

01:49

All of which my publisher is very concerned about, and I have decided that I don't care about at all anymore.

All of which my publisher is very concerned about, and I have decided that I don't care about at all anymore.

01:54

Because if you own your own bookstore, that means that and you sell twenty thousand copies, do they not count all twenty thousands in in the rankings?

Because if you own your own bookstore, that means that and you sell twenty thousand copies, do they not count all twenty thousands in in the rankings?

02:03

Yeah. So I mean, just generally, if you sold twenty thousand copies of a book through one book store, they would find that to be suspicious,

Yeah. So I mean, just generally, if you sold twenty thousand copies of a book through one book store, they would find that to be suspicious,

02:11

or or unrepresentative, and there's a chance it could get tossed. If you ever look at the at the best seller list and you see like a little they call it a dagger. It's like a little cross next to certain books. That means that there was a lot of bulk purchases.

or or unrepresentative, and there's a chance it could get tossed. If you ever look at the at the best seller list and you see like a little they call it a dagger. It's like a little cross next to certain books. That means that there was a lot of bulk purchases.

02:25

Or, like, suspicious activity. So there could be that.

Or, like, suspicious activity. So there could be that.

02:29

But,

But,

02:30

the the

the the

02:33

Walster Journal or BookScan, which is owned by Nielsen,

Walster Journal or BookScan, which is owned by Nielsen,

02:36

just flat out told me they just don't include,

just flat out told me they just don't include,

02:40

sales

sales

02:41

from,

from,

02:42

stores owned by the author anymore,

stores owned by the author anymore,

02:45

which doesn't strike me. Is that being a big enough category to have a rule about? But,

which doesn't strike me. Is that being a big enough category to have a rule about? But,

02:51

I guess it it there's the potential for fraud. Like, I guess, theoretically,

I guess it it there's the potential for fraud. Like, I guess, theoretically,

02:55

I could have just, you know, inflated the numbers or something. So there's a chance I could get tossed, but as I have gone on as an author, I've cared.

I could have just, you know, inflated the numbers or something. So there's a chance I could get tossed, but as I have gone on as an author, I've cared.

03:04

Once you get it once, I feel like you have it, and then you also realize, like, kind of how meaningless things are.

Once you get it once, I feel like you have it, and then you also realize, like, kind of how meaningless things are.

03:11

So I care a lot less about

So I care a lot less about

03:13

sort of the status

sort of the status

03:15

or the recognition

or the recognition

03:16

of sales, and I care a lot more about, you know, did I sell as many copies as possible

of sales, and I care a lot more about, you know, did I sell as many copies as possible

03:23

to as many people as possible. Right?

to as many people as possible. Right?

03:26

Because the whole point of writing the book is for people to read it. Does being on that list? And when you say the best seller list. Are you meaning just the New York time? Is that considered like the list and just being on that to help sales?

Because the whole point of writing the book is for people to read it. Does being on that list? And when you say the best seller list. Are you meaning just the New York time? Is that considered like the list and just being on that to help sales?

03:37

There's there's sort of three lists. There's New York Times, which you probably rank as number one, Wall Street Journal, which you'd probably rank as number two, and then USA today. Those are the three, what you have to hit one of those three lists to be called a national best seller. Those are the three national lists.

There's there's sort of three lists. There's New York Times, which you probably rank as number one, Wall Street Journal, which you'd probably rank as number two, and then USA today. Those are the three, what you have to hit one of those three lists to be called a national best seller. Those are the three national lists.

03:55

There is I think people tell themselves a story about how being on the list helps them sell more copies.

There is I think people tell themselves a story about how being on the list helps them sell more copies.

04:02

But as someone who buys a lot of books and talks to a lot of people who buy a lot of books, I have never once heard of someone buying a book because they saw it on a list. Most people don't even know where they would find such a list.

But as someone who buys a lot of books and talks to a lot of people who buy a lot of books, I have never once heard of someone buying a book because they saw it on a list. Most people don't even know where they would find such a list.

04:16

Dude, I was reading,

Dude, I was reading,

04:19

is it News Corp? Or I forget the company, the the it's Robert Murdoch's company, but he has two of them. I forget which one is that owns, I think, penguin, and they did this whole I was reading their annual report, and they were doing this entire section on Mark Manson,

is it News Corp? Or I forget the company, the the it's Robert Murdoch's company, but he has two of them. I forget which one is that owns, I think, penguin, and they did this whole I was reading their annual report, and they were doing this entire section on Mark Manson,

04:33

and basically saying, like, This has been like a breakthrough hit and like this is, you know, the company is like a twenty or forty billion dollar company.

and basically saying, like, This has been like a breakthrough hit and like this is, you know, the company is like a twenty or forty billion dollar company.

04:43

And they're referencing Mark Manson. I'm like, oh, wow. That's that must be a huge book, in order for them to, like, discuss this in a six pages of a hundred page document. And then I googled like Mark Manson House because that's always like the tell. I'm like, is someone like crushing it because it's you can't really, like, trying to get a mortgage for fifteen million dollar cost unless you're actually raking it in. And it said, like, you know, Mark Manson sells tribeca condo for fourteen million dollars. And I'm like,

And they're referencing Mark Manson. I'm like, oh, wow. That's that must be a huge book, in order for them to, like, discuss this in a six pages of a hundred page document. And then I googled like Mark Manson House because that's always like the tell. I'm like, is someone like crushing it because it's you can't really, like, trying to get a mortgage for fifteen million dollar cost unless you're actually raking it in. And it said, like, you know, Mark Manson sells tribeca condo for fourteen million dollars. And I'm like,

05:09

Damn.

Damn.

05:10

He like, I thought book the book business was a bad business. He must have crushed it. He must be making millions.

He like, I thought book the book business was a bad business. He must have crushed it. He must be making millions.

05:15

It's actually a a great business. So the the publishing industry, I think, is about a forty billion dollar industry.

It's actually a a great business. So the the publishing industry, I think, is about a forty billion dollar industry.

05:22

Newscorp owns Harper Collins. Harper Collins publishes

Newscorp owns Harper Collins. Harper Collins publishes

05:26

Mark.

Mark.

05:28

Penguin random house, which is my publisher, is the biggest publisher in the world, and they are themselves. Those look,

Penguin random house, which is my publisher, is the biggest publisher in the world, and they are themselves. Those look,

05:34

penguin random house. I think they're owned by, a parent company. I forget the parent company there. They're owned by Birtlesman or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. But,

penguin random house. I think they're owned by, a parent company. I forget the parent company there. They're owned by Birtlesman or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. But,

05:43

here, let's,

here, let's,

05:45

revenues.

revenues.

05:46

Their revenues, I bet I, four billion euro for for penguin random house. So it's a it's a very big business.

Their revenues, I bet I, four billion euro for for penguin random house. So it's a it's a very big business.

05:56

And and always has been. And there are multi multiple multi billion dollar,

And and always has been. And there are multi multiple multi billion dollar,

06:01

you know, businesses

you know, businesses

06:02

inside that business. Even even Ingram, which is the distributor

inside that business. Even even Ingram, which is the distributor

06:07

that sells books to most independent retail, is like a seven or eight billion dollar business.

that sells books to most independent retail, is like a seven or eight billion dollar business.

06:13

But Mark's probably sold.

But Mark's probably sold.

06:16

I think,

I think,

06:17

I think,

I think,

06:19

subtle art of not giving a fuck sold, like, ten or fifteen million copies. And what do they cost? Twenty bucks?

subtle art of not giving a fuck sold, like, ten or fifteen million copies. And what do they cost? Twenty bucks?

06:25

Yeah. So so if you think about, like, my books, I I've sold five million copies. If you said twenty. That's that's a hundred million dollars in gross revenues right there. Crazy. Now, obviously, there's a lot of middlemen

Yeah. So so if you think about, like, my books, I I've sold five million copies. If you said twenty. That's that's a hundred million dollars in gross revenues right there. Crazy. Now, obviously, there's a lot of middlemen

06:37

even before it gets to the publisher. Right? The publisher is selling the book at Wholesale. So right there,

even before it gets to the publisher. Right? The publisher is selling the book at Wholesale. So right there,

06:43

that's, you know, cuts it in half.

that's, you know, cuts it in half.

06:46

And then, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, it goes down. But but there are if you think about

And then, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, it goes down. But but there are if you think about

06:53

how much a book sells for and the quantities

how much a book sells for and the quantities

06:56

of which successful authors sell a lot of books? That that number gets very, very high. This is why JK Rowling is is a billionaire.

of which successful authors sell a lot of books? That that number gets very, very high. This is why JK Rowling is is a billionaire.

07:03

Right? She's probably sold a hundred, two hundred million Harry Potter books, not including licensing and all the other things. You know,

Right? She's probably sold a hundred, two hundred million Harry Potter books, not including licensing and all the other things. You know,

07:11

different the the the different formats, whether it's audio or ebook or physical or hardcover, even hardcover and paperback is a big thing. Like, One of the I bet Mark, for instance, and I I know Mark, and he's amazing. The distinction the the decision to put your book in paperback,

different the the the different formats, whether it's audio or ebook or physical or hardcover, even hardcover and paperback is a big thing. Like, One of the I bet Mark, for instance, and I I know Mark, and he's amazing. The distinction the the decision to put your book in paperback,

07:26

is actually a multimillion

is actually a multimillion

07:28

dollar decision for authors, and and most authors have never even thought about this. So for instance, on a hardcover book,

dollar decision for authors, and and most authors have never even thought about this. So for instance, on a hardcover book,

07:36

the the standard publishing contract and pretty much everyone, including the authors that are,

the the standard publishing contract and pretty much everyone, including the authors that are,

07:42

household names are on the same contract. It's just this is what it is, is,

household names are on the same contract. It's just this is what it is, is,

07:47

fifteen percent on hardcover

fifteen percent on hardcover

07:50

price.

price.

07:51

So,

So,

07:52

a an author makes you know, fifteen percent of twenty seven dollars. Whether you as the customer get that book for seventeen dollars on Amazon or for twenty seven dollars at an independent bookstore, you're making the same amount. Right? Your your royalty is on MSRP.

a an author makes you know, fifteen percent of twenty seven dollars. Whether you as the customer get that book for seventeen dollars on Amazon or for twenty seven dollars at an independent bookstore, you're making the same amount. Right? Your your royalty is on MSRP.

08:07

But fifteen percent of hardcover,

But fifteen percent of hardcover,

08:10

right, a paperback

right, a paperback

08:11

sells for about ten to fifteen dollars less than a hardcover.

sells for about ten to fifteen dollars less than a hardcover.

08:16

Right? But and your royalty is twelve and a half percent. So my my agent very early who was in publishing, he was like he was like,

Right? But and your royalty is twelve and a half percent. So my my agent very early who was in publishing, he was like he was like,

08:26

I will never let your books go into paperback.

I will never let your books go into paperback.

08:30

Is like you have to sell about as third you have to sell a third more books to make the same amount of money that you've sold in hardcover. And this is why Tim Farris' books are not widely available in paperback. Good to great by Jim Collins, which is sold tens of, you know, by ten million copies. Still in hardcover even though it's a twenty year old book. So there's lots of little decisions that What about Audible and Evocal?

Is like you have to sell about as third you have to sell a third more books to make the same amount of money that you've sold in hardcover. And this is why Tim Farris' books are not widely available in paperback. Good to great by Jim Collins, which is sold tens of, you know, by ten million copies. Still in hardcover even though it's a twenty year old book. So there's lots of little decisions that What about Audible and Evocal?

08:55

So Audible, you make

So Audible, you make

08:57

I think it's the same as a I think Audible and eBook are twenty five percent of list price. So you make It it it's a higher royalty, but on a lower price point, audio books are like fifteen bucks or nine bucks, for for ebooks a lot of times.

I think it's the same as a I think Audible and eBook are twenty five percent of list price. So you make It it it's a higher royalty, but on a lower price point, audio books are like fifteen bucks or nine bucks, for for ebooks a lot of times.

09:13

So so somewhere between two and three bucks a book, you make across formats.

So so somewhere between two and three bucks a book, you make across formats.

09:19

So, you're in a hardcover ebook.

So, you're in a hardcover ebook.

09:22

And so you think Mark's book has sold two hundred is I think did you say two hundred million in sales? So No. No. Twenty. He's probably sold twenty million Sorry. In gross revenue.

And so you think Mark's book has sold two hundred is I think did you say two hundred million in sales? So No. No. Twenty. He's probably sold twenty million Sorry. In gross revenue.

09:32

Oh, was twenty million bucks times hardcover price or, you know, it it it there's gonna be a a blend there of the price. The only the only thing that's worth pointing out this isn't a criticism.

Oh, was twenty million bucks times hardcover price or, you know, it it it there's gonna be a a blend there of the price. The only the only thing that's worth pointing out this isn't a criticism.

09:44

It's a it's just a a quirk of the business. Mark has sold a Mark's books are very big internationally.

It's a it's just a a quirk of the business. Mark has sold a Mark's books are very big internationally.

09:50

Right? His books are big in Brazil. His books are big in India.

Right? His books are big in Brazil. His books are big in India.

09:54

I I've experienced the same thing. But as soon as you start, like, so as soon as you start selling lots of copies internationally,

I I've experienced the same thing. But as soon as you start, like, so as soon as you start selling lots of copies internationally,

10:02

let's just say you start seeing a lot less money for those titles. Right? Like, for instance,

let's just say you start seeing a lot less money for those titles. Right? Like, for instance,

10:09

somebody sent me a copy of one of my books in, from Iran recently.

somebody sent me a copy of one of my books in, from Iran recently.

10:14

And I emailed my agent, and I said, oh, I didn't know we did, like, a Persian translation. And he said, we didn't. He said Iran doesn't recognize

And I emailed my agent, and I said, oh, I didn't know we did, like, a Persian translation. And he said, we didn't. He said Iran doesn't recognize

10:22

copyright. They just do whatever they want. He's like, you'll never see a penny from these books. So the point is, like, if, if you sell a million books in Russia, Right? You're not getting your standard royalty rate. You may never see a penny of that. You might get an initial advance.

copyright. They just do whatever they want. He's like, you'll never see a penny from these books. So the point is, like, if, if you sell a million books in Russia, Right? You're not getting your standard royalty rate. You may never see a penny of that. You might get an initial advance.

10:38

But you'll the, you know, is you start to get into

But you'll the, you know, is you start to get into

10:41

let's say less

let's say less

10:43

transparency in the accounting as you sell. So you can't you can't simply go, well, what's the total number of copies sold by a person and then times that by a number, you're probably gonna be overstating the cash they have on hand.

transparency in the accounting as you sell. So you can't you can't simply go, well, what's the total number of copies sold by a person and then times that by a number, you're probably gonna be overstating the cash they have on hand.

10:57

So, you've sold a hundred million in books So then, like, the estimate based off of the numbers you said, it would be, like, around thirteen, fourteen, fifteen percent take home.

So, you've sold a hundred million in books So then, like, the estimate based off of the numbers you said, it would be, like, around thirteen, fourteen, fifteen percent take home.

11:07

I mean, how many authors are doing that?

I mean, how many authors are doing that?

11:09

Selling five million books, very, very few. I mean, definitely, there are a lot there are lots of people who have done it, and there are people who have done much, much higher than that. But, like, as far as people who write about philosophy, I mean, I'm not sure it's been done ever.

Selling five million books, very, very few. I mean, definitely, there are a lot there are lots of people who have done it, and there are people who have done much, much higher than that. But, like, as far as people who write about philosophy, I mean, I'm not sure it's been done ever.

11:24

Certainly not in in in, like, the modern world. So you know, when I went to my publisher and I,

Certainly not in in in, like, the modern world. So you know, when I went to my publisher and I,

11:30

you know,

you know,

11:31

offered them a an obscure book about ancient philosophy and thousand eleven, two thousand twelve for for the stoke book, the first stoke book. You know, they offered me my my advance on the obstacle is the way it was seventy five thousand dollars. They were not they were not thinking, you know, that series would sell three or four million copies.

offered them a an obscure book about ancient philosophy and thousand eleven, two thousand twelve for for the stoke book, the first stoke book. You know, they offered me my my advance on the obstacle is the way it was seventy five thousand dollars. They were not they were not thinking, you know, that series would sell three or four million copies.

11:50

Do you think that your life

Do you think that your life

11:52

has or will become so we were talking about Tim Farris, and we're like, you know, however much he's made on books, it probably pales in comparison. He's, I arguably,

has or will become so we were talking about Tim Farris, and we're like, you know, however much he's made on books, it probably pales in comparison. He's, I arguably,

12:00

like, just guessing maybe he's worth a hundred and fifty to two hundred fifty million dollars based off of his Shopify and Uber seed investments. And who he probably has done so many more things that I don't even know about. Do you think that your business is gonna be a similar thing where it's almost like the books are awesome, but they're gonna be tiny compared to the other revenue streams.

like, just guessing maybe he's worth a hundred and fifty to two hundred fifty million dollars based off of his Shopify and Uber seed investments. And who he probably has done so many more things that I don't even know about. Do you think that your business is gonna be a similar thing where it's almost like the books are awesome, but they're gonna be tiny compared to the other revenue streams.

12:20

I don't know. I don't I don't do that many investments,

I don't know. I don't I don't do that many investments,

12:24

but it is weird. Like, I I I

but it is weird. Like, I I I

12:27

I was an advisor early on to, like, butcherbox, and they've done a few sort of private transactions

I was an advisor early on to, like, butcherbox, and they've done a few sort of private transactions

12:33

that I took part in. And it is both humbling and surreal

that I took part in. And it is both humbling and surreal

12:38

to be, like, to get a check and be like, shit. I would have had to sell a lot of books to get the same amount of money. And

to be, like, to get a check and be like, shit. I would have had to sell a lot of books to get the same amount of money. And

12:47

this amount of money was

this amount of money was

12:50

you know, a lot less work. So I I think for someone like Tim, you know, when when you can when you can invest in something that scales at that level,

you know, a lot less work. So I I think for someone like Tim, you know, when when you can when you can invest in something that scales at that level,

12:59

it I I do think it makes you

it I I do think it makes you

13:03

a little disinterested

a little disinterested

13:05

in the economics of publishing even though they are quite they are quite good. I yeah. I mean, I was like and everyone talks about in writing a book, and they say, I think he's the one who told me this. He's like, it sucks. He's like, it just it stinks. He he says, he goes, I love it kind of, but I also really hate it. It's very uncomfortable and it's a a lot of hard work. And was like, yeah, I don't know why you'd write a book then when you if you don't have if you don't if you don't truly, truly love it. I have no idea if he does or does not, but it's very hard. It seems it seems almost impossible.

in the economics of publishing even though they are quite they are quite good. I yeah. I mean, I was like and everyone talks about in writing a book, and they say, I think he's the one who told me this. He's like, it sucks. He's like, it just it stinks. He he says, he goes, I love it kind of, but I also really hate it. It's very uncomfortable and it's a a lot of hard work. And was like, yeah, I don't know why you'd write a book then when you if you don't have if you don't if you don't truly, truly love it. I have no idea if he does or does not, but it's very hard. It seems it seems almost impossible.

13:35

It is super weird though because,

It is super weird though because,

13:37

like,

like,

13:38

a lot wealthy people read book Right? The the the the interesting thing about books is that they sort of punch above their weight culturally. It's like the opera or something. Right? And so,

a lot wealthy people read book Right? The the the the interesting thing about books is that they sort of punch above their weight culturally. It's like the opera or something. Right? And so,

13:49

like, you could be very famous on YouTube and your average billionaire might not know who you are, but if you write, like, a business book or a political book that sells reasonably well, you're gonna you're gonna have some name recognition in an elite group. And so I've gotten to meet, like, a number of very successful business people over the years. And, like, as a rule,

like, you could be very famous on YouTube and your average billionaire might not know who you are, but if you write, like, a business book or a political book that sells reasonably well, you're gonna you're gonna have some name recognition in an elite group. And so I've gotten to meet, like, a number of very successful business people over the years. And, like, as a rule,

14:09

they all wanna write books or all wanna talk about whether they should write a book or not, And it was actually very helpful for me to learn that early on because, like, every author I knew was trying to start a business or follow in Tim Ferris' footsteps,

they all wanna write books or all wanna talk about whether they should write a book or not, And it was actually very helpful for me to learn that early on because, like, every author I knew was trying to start a business or follow in Tim Ferris' footsteps,

14:23

and invest in these companies to get really, really rich. And then I would meet really, really rich people, and they wanted to write books. And it was a reminder to me that, like,

and invest in these companies to get really, really rich. And then I would meet really, really rich people, and they wanted to write books. And it was a reminder to me that, like,

14:33

doing stuff that's cool that you like that means something to you is what people do with their money when they have it. And so They're like, like, I met this guy.

doing stuff that's cool that you like that means something to you is what people do with their money when they have it. And so They're like, like, I met this guy.

14:44

You actually probably know him, but I won't put him on the spot. But, anyways, he he'd written a couple books and then he started a VC

You actually probably know him, but I won't put him on the spot. But, anyways, he he'd written a couple books and then he started a VC

14:51

company.

company.

14:52

He raised a fund. He raised, like, a hundred million dollars.

He raised a fund. He raised, like, a hundred million dollars.

14:55

And,

And,

14:56

he had to put writing on the side to raise this fund. And I asked him, you know,

he had to put writing on the side to raise this fund. And I asked him, you know,

15:01

Like, what why are you doing this? Like, what are you gonna I was like, let's say you really succeed. Like, let's say your fund crashes and you walk away with, like, twenty million dollars.

Like, what why are you doing this? Like, what are you gonna I was like, let's say you really succeed. Like, let's say your fund crashes and you walk away with, like, twenty million dollars.

15:11

What would you do with it? Right? And he was like he's like, do you know who Alon Debiton is? He's an author who's started this company called School of Life.

What would you do with it? Right? And he was like he's like, do you know who Alon Debiton is? He's an author who's started this company called School of Life.

15:20

He was like, I think I would do something like that. And I was just I just burst into laughter because, like Let's do it now. Was it? Yeah. He was it's like that that story about the, you know, the fisherman,

He was like, I think I would do something like that. And I was just I just burst into laughter because, like Let's do it now. Was it? Yeah. He was it's like that that story about the, you know, the fisherman,

15:31

who meets that western businessman who tells him, like, you know, if you really scale up your company, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, one day you can sit on a beach somewhere. And it's like, that's what I do now. And so there is kind of this weirdness where people think

who meets that western businessman who tells him, like, you know, if you really scale up your company, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, one day you can sit on a beach somewhere. And it's like, that's what I do now. And so there is kind of this weirdness where people think

15:45

financial freedom is this kind of abstract

financial freedom is this kind of abstract

15:48

good, and then you meet people who have it, and they still have to wake up and figure out what they're gonna do all day.

good, and then you meet people who have it, and they still have to wake up and figure out what they're gonna do all day.

15:54

Dude, I listen to your well, I wanna talk about the YouTube thing in a second, but I listen to your YouTube videos every single morning when I take a walk. And, like, it makes me feel so good about myself. Not maybe not good about myself, but I feel like I'm getting so much from it. Whether it's education, whether it's just like you're helping me think differently. I don't know what it is, but I I get so much from it. When you

Dude, I listen to your well, I wanna talk about the YouTube thing in a second, but I listen to your YouTube videos every single morning when I take a walk. And, like, it makes me feel so good about myself. Not maybe not good about myself, but I feel like I'm getting so much from it. Whether it's education, whether it's just like you're helping me think differently. I don't know what it is, but I I get so much from it. When you

16:17

You're the one trading all this stuff or at least you're paraphrasing, like, interesting people. Do you think that you are absorbing these lessons better than most others? Like, you know, like, are you you you just told this very simple story of like, well, why would you go and do this, this, and this when you're already doing that now? Are you motivated by, like,

You're the one trading all this stuff or at least you're paraphrasing, like, interesting people. Do you think that you are absorbing these lessons better than most others? Like, you know, like, are you you you just told this very simple story of like, well, why would you go and do this, this, and this when you're already doing that now? Are you motivated by, like,

16:36

Are you motivated by money? Are you motivated by all these things that you talk about? Like, look, this, and this, and this may not make you happy.

Are you motivated by money? Are you motivated by all these things that you talk about? Like, look, this, and this, and this may not make you happy.

16:43

I think, I I certainly struggle with it, like, every, you know, single person does because it's not, like, just knowing it doesn't magically make it easy. But I would say, like, like, a big lesson like that. Like, why are you trying to make all this money to get somewhere you're already

I think, I I certainly struggle with it, like, every, you know, single person does because it's not, like, just knowing it doesn't magically make it easy. But I would say, like, like, a big lesson like that. Like, why are you trying to make all this money to get somewhere you're already

16:57

you already could be? I feel like I do a better job learning those those big philosophical lessons, like sort of where do you reign ambition in? Know, sort of how do you define meaning or happiness or content in your life? I probably am better at that than I am at some of the more basic stuff, like,

you already could be? I feel like I do a better job learning those those big philosophical lessons, like sort of where do you reign ambition in? Know, sort of how do you define meaning or happiness or content in your life? I probably am better at that than I am at some of the more basic stuff, like,

17:16

you don't have to be anxious about this or, like, why are you letting this person get under your skin or why are you losing your temper about x, y, or z? So, like, I feel like the bigger stuff, the this docism or the philosophy

you don't have to be anxious about this or, like, why are you letting this person get under your skin or why are you losing your temper about x, y, or z? So, like, I feel like the bigger stuff, the this docism or the philosophy

17:29

sort of, connects with me. And and by the way, that story, that about the fishermen,

sort of, connects with me. And and by the way, that story, that about the fishermen,

17:34

actually traces back to, like, the fourteenth century about,

actually traces back to, like, the fourteenth century about,

17:38

this story about a prince,

this story about a prince,

17:40

advising a king or an advisor advising a prince.

advising a king or an advisor advising a prince.

17:44

So the story goes way back. I feel like I get that better

So the story goes way back. I feel like I get that better

17:47

than I do stuff that might be

than I do stuff that might be

17:50

seem really easy for most people which is just, like, you know, sort of day to day emotional management.

seem really easy for most people which is just, like, you know, sort of day to day emotional management.

17:56

How you you said something really cool on the, I was listening to this the other day. There's two things that stuck out first one is with Matthew McConaughey, you're talking about content.

How you you said something really cool on the, I was listening to this the other day. There's two things that stuck out first one is with Matthew McConaughey, you're talking about content.

18:06

And you're asking him about how what he chooses, like which projects he chooses. And apparently, he there was, the whole part of the episode was talking about how he had, like, ten or twenty million dollar offer. And he was like, no, I don't wanna do this. This doesn't this doesn't speak to me. This is not how I would have had my time. And he was like, he felt guilt over that. And you guys were talking about Bob Dylan, and I think it was you who said, I wanna make content like Bob Dylan, which is quality and quantity don't necessarily have to be at odds with each other. Like, I can output lots of really cool, great stuff. And you do do that. And the daily stoic is an email, the new the daily dad, another email, and then you have the books, which is you have dozens of them, or a dozen of them, plus, and then you have,

And you're asking him about how what he chooses, like which projects he chooses. And apparently, he there was, the whole part of the episode was talking about how he had, like, ten or twenty million dollar offer. And he was like, no, I don't wanna do this. This doesn't this doesn't speak to me. This is not how I would have had my time. And he was like, he felt guilt over that. And you guys were talking about Bob Dylan, and I think it was you who said, I wanna make content like Bob Dylan, which is quality and quantity don't necessarily have to be at odds with each other. Like, I can output lots of really cool, great stuff. And you do do that. And the daily stoic is an email, the new the daily dad, another email, and then you have the books, which is you have dozens of them, or a dozen of them, plus, and then you have,

18:45

the podcast, and then you have the YouTube channel. And I'm like, how on earth are you,

the podcast, and then you have the YouTube channel. And I'm like, how on earth are you,

18:50

how are you outputting all of this stuff? It's always awesome. I love all your shit. Well, thank you. I mean, I I I think I actually, like, I actually like doing it. Right? So there's there's some people who they don't like doing it. And so to do it because you think it'll make money or it's what, like, you have to do

how are you outputting all of this stuff? It's always awesome. I love all your shit. Well, thank you. I mean, I I I think I actually, like, I actually like doing it. Right? So there's there's some people who they don't like doing it. And so to do it because you think it'll make money or it's what, like, you have to do

19:08

that would be not a reason to do it. But, like, I, like, this morning, I I got up and I wrote. And yesterday, when the book came out, I was excited not to come into the office to see how, you know, the the discipline did, but, like, I had saved, like, a really good chapter

that would be not a reason to do it. But, like, I, like, this morning, I I got up and I wrote. And yesterday, when the book came out, I was excited not to come into the office to see how, you know, the the discipline did, but, like, I had saved, like, a really good chapter

19:26

for what is the sequel because I'm doing this four book series. Like, I was just fucking pumped to do that. Like, that that's really what gets me excited is doing the stuff. So I've always I I think

for what is the sequel because I'm doing this four book series. Like, I was just fucking pumped to do that. Like, that that's really what gets me excited is doing the stuff. So I've always I I think

19:38

I tend to have,

I tend to have,

19:42

more energy to make stuff than their actually is like pipes to put stuff out. That's just like how it shook out.

more energy to make stuff than their actually is like pipes to put stuff out. That's just like how it shook out.

19:51

And I I agree. Like, I I I agree with the sentiment, rebound Dylan, and that that, like,

And I I agree. Like, I I I agree with the sentiment, rebound Dylan, and that that, like,

19:57

quantity and quality don't have to be opposed to each other. And in fact,

quantity and quality don't have to be opposed to each other. And in fact,

20:01

the more you do, chances are you'll

the more you do, chances are you'll

20:05

you'll sort

you'll sort

20:07

of get something magical or important

of get something magical or important

20:09

I mean, like, I I I really admire people who are wired differently and they are sort of painstakingly,

I mean, like, I I I really admire people who are wired differently and they are sort of painstakingly,

20:16

put

put

20:18

you know, put lots of years into something. Although, like, if you,

you know, put lots of years into something. Although, like, if you,

20:22

you know, I bet if you asked Mark,

you know, I bet if you asked Mark,

20:25

He would and I'm actually, I have asked him. But, like, following up a massive, massive hit is really hard. And I've been lucky in that my books have done

He would and I'm actually, I have asked him. But, like, following up a massive, massive hit is really hard. And I've been lucky in that my books have done

20:35

well,

well,

20:36

but they haven't done so well that, like, my whole world's changed.

but they haven't done so well that, like, my whole world's changed.

20:41

Like, When the obstacle is the way it came out, so obstacle is the way it came out. They did not offer me very much money. It sold

Like, When the obstacle is the way it came out, so obstacle is the way it came out. They did not offer me very much money. It sold

20:47

well at first, but it

well at first, but it

20:49

it took

it took

20:51

When it It's like a slow burn.

When it It's like a slow burn.

20:53

Yeah. It and and not even slow, but just steady. Like, it probably didn't cross the one million copies sold mark I know it crossed the hundred thousand copies mark within the first year because there was a bonus attached to it. So it took, you know, twelve months to sell a hundred thousand copies. But it probably took an additional

Yeah. It and and not even slow, but just steady. Like, it probably didn't cross the one million copies sold mark I know it crossed the hundred thousand copies mark within the first year because there was a bonus attached to it. So it took, you know, twelve months to sell a hundred thousand copies. But it probably took an additional

21:11

four

four

21:13

to five years before it crossed the one million copy mark. So, like, for someone like Mark or James Clear or other other people, like,

to five years before it crossed the one million copy mark. So, like, for someone like Mark or James Clear or other other people, like,

21:23

it would they they hit the one million mark in, like, a number of months.

it would they they hit the one million mark in, like, a number of months.

21:27

And when you start to do that, everything changes,

And when you start to do that, everything changes,

21:31

expectations change,

expectations change,

21:33

you know, inbound inquiries change,

you know, inbound inquiries change,

21:36

and I think I think it becomes hard to just, like, do the thing. So I I feel like kind of lucky to be, like, to have a niche

and I think I think it becomes hard to just, like, do the thing. So I I feel like kind of lucky to be, like, to have a niche

21:44

But to to have a big niche, but for it's still to very much be a niche. Right? Like,

But to to have a big niche, but for it's still to very much be a niche. Right? Like,

21:50

there's just more people haven't heard of me than have heard of me, and that is a nice place to operate in.

there's just more people haven't heard of me than have heard of me, and that is a nice place to operate in.

21:58

Dude, so many people so the hustle, we were a daily email. Then me and Sean do this thing three days a week. And people are like, hey, how are you doing

Dude, so many people so the hustle, we were a daily email. Then me and Sean do this thing three days a week. And people are like, hey, how are you doing

22:06

quantity? I wanna get started, but, like, you know, I'm, like, banking

quantity? I wanna get started, but, like, you know, I'm, like, banking

22:10

twenty one episodes before I start, or I'm, like, perfecting, like, this blog post. And, you know, I I'm going more for quality versus quantity. And in my head, or sometimes I'll tell them, I'm like, no. That's a false dichotomy. That that's not true. Like, the quality is the quantity.

twenty one episodes before I start, or I'm, like, perfecting, like, this blog post. And, you know, I I'm going more for quality versus quantity. And in my head, or sometimes I'll tell them, I'm like, no. That's a false dichotomy. That that's not true. Like, the quality is the quantity.

22:25

Like, you, you know, you like, the the output here or like the if this were, like, quality plus quantity equals, it would be like, you know, like, the total reach in how impactful they are and the types of people you're impacting.

Like, you, you know, you like, the the output here or like the if this were, like, quality plus quantity equals, it would be like, you know, like, the total reach in how impactful they are and the types of people you're impacting.

22:38

And to do that, you have to have, like, something in there for quantity. And it's really just kind of an excuse to procrastinate further that you're making up for yourself. But, a, it gets easier as you get into it. So you need quantity. You need the swings to get better. And, b, if you treat it like a job, you could have way more output than you think.

And to do that, you have to have, like, something in there for quantity. And it's really just kind of an excuse to procrastinate further that you're making up for yourself. But, a, it gets easier as you get into it. So you need quantity. You need the swings to get better. And, b, if you treat it like a job, you could have way more output than you think.

22:55

Yeah. I I have a couple thoughts there. So, one, it's, like, try to apply that logic to, like, any other thing. Like, imagine if you met a comedian and they were like, I'm really focused on quality.

Yeah. I I have a couple thoughts there. So, one, it's, like, try to apply that logic to, like, any other thing. Like, imagine if you met a comedian and they were like, I'm really focused on quality.

23:05

Instead of quantity, so I don't do a lot of stage time. Like, I just don't go up very often. You'd be like, you're a shitty stand up comic. Like, the way you get good at it is by doing it a lot. Right?

Instead of quantity, so I don't do a lot of stage time. Like, I just don't go up very often. You'd be like, you're a shitty stand up comic. Like, the way you get good at it is by doing it a lot. Right?

23:18

And it's very hard to get to quality without years

And it's very hard to get to quality without years

23:23

of,

of,

23:25

back and forth with an audience. Right? Like, it's just really hard. And so

back and forth with an audience. Right? Like, it's just really hard. And so

23:31

especially online where you're giving the thing away for free. Like, you should be focused on quantity

especially online where you're giving the thing away for free. Like, you should be focused on quantity

23:37

because quantity is how you get to a place where what you do is worth paying for at a premium level, like, with a a book or something. So, like, I I've done a free email every day for six years. Right?

because quantity is how you get to a place where what you do is worth paying for at a premium level, like, with a a book or something. So, like, I I've done a free email every day for six years. Right?

23:50

That that's built to business. But Are you writing that?

That that's built to business. But Are you writing that?

23:54

I write it every day. I mean, every once in a while, like, like, let's say ten percent of them are you know, hey, I'll I'll work with someone on my team and be like, hey, I already wrote about this. Can you work this into a draft for me to approve or rewrite? But, like, the vast majority of those daily emails were, like,

I write it every day. I mean, every once in a while, like, like, let's say ten percent of them are you know, hey, I'll I'll work with someone on my team and be like, hey, I already wrote about this. Can you work this into a draft for me to approve or rewrite? But, like, the vast majority of those daily emails were, like,

24:12

a hundred percent original

a hundred percent original

24:15

ideas that I put out a hundred percent of. Is that the dad or the make it easier? Both. Both.

ideas that I put out a hundred percent of. Is that the dad or the make it easier? Both. Both.

24:22

You you oh, I didn't know. You're writing both of those every day? Yeah. Well, I don't write it out. I mean, I write every day, but I don't write the email every day. Right? So, like, I am currently, let's say, like, I could pull this up. Let me I have a document,

You you oh, I didn't know. You're writing both of those every day? Yeah. Well, I don't write it out. I mean, I write every day, but I don't write the email every day. Right? So, like, I am currently, let's say, like, I could pull this up. Let me I have a document,

24:35

where I I have someone track them. Like, I am

where I I have someone track them. Like, I am

24:39

I'm scheduled out on daily

I'm scheduled out on daily

24:41

stoic through and daily dad

stoic through and daily dad

24:44

through October fourteenth.

through October fourteenth.

24:46

And then I have ten written that are ready to record,

And then I have ten written that are ready to record,

24:50

sixteen that are recorded, but not unscheduled,

sixteen that are recorded, but not unscheduled,

24:53

and then nine on daily data that are ready to record.

and then nine on daily data that are ready to record.

24:56

And eight that are recorded, but not scheduled. So, like And that's your system?

And eight that are recorded, but not scheduled. So, like And that's your system?

25:01

Yeah. So I I'm just do it. Like, I might sit down today. Like, I have I don't know where my to do list is, but on my to do list, I have three

Yeah. So I I'm just do it. Like, I might sit down today. Like, I have I don't know where my to do list is, but on my to do list, I have three

25:07

sort of one sentence

sort of one sentence

25:09

ideas for daily data emails. And I might bust that out in thirty minutes. And then that's, you know, almost a week worth of content right there.

ideas for daily data emails. And I might bust that out in thirty minutes. And then that's, you know, almost a week worth of content right there.

25:18

Are you, writing the script your YouTube videos. I think you're only doing one or two a week. Right?

Are you, writing the script your YouTube videos. I think you're only doing one or two a week. Right?

25:23

Yes.

Yes.

25:24

So YouTube,

So YouTube,

25:25

I have a I have a I have a Actually, wait. Let me I'll I'll come back to that in a sec. The other thing I would say about the people who are like, oh, I really wanna get to quality. That's why it takes so long. When I look at what those people make, I very rarely see the quality. Right? Like, they're, like, oh, you know what, this book, it took me five years. And I'm, like, where? Show show me five years of work in this thing. Right? I'm I'm not arguing with you that it it transpired over five years. But I don't think you showed up and worked on this as you said, like a job every day for five years. I think it either it because if that were true, I think it would either be a lot better, or I think it would have come out a lot faster. Right? So I think a lot of people are

I have a I have a I have a Actually, wait. Let me I'll I'll come back to that in a sec. The other thing I would say about the people who are like, oh, I really wanna get to quality. That's why it takes so long. When I look at what those people make, I very rarely see the quality. Right? Like, they're, like, oh, you know what, this book, it took me five years. And I'm, like, where? Show show me five years of work in this thing. Right? I'm I'm not arguing with you that it it transpired over five years. But I don't think you showed up and worked on this as you said, like a job every day for five years. I think it either it because if that were true, I think it would either be a lot better, or I think it would have come out a lot faster. Right? So I think a lot of people are

26:09

baking in a lot of inefficiencies,

baking in a lot of inefficiencies,

26:12

and a lot of,

and a lot of,

26:14

procrastination

procrastination

26:16

inside that and then patting themselves on the back and saying that they're doing a thing that they're really focused on quality. So that's just like a dispute I have. I think a lot of people take way too long to do things.

inside that and then patting themselves on the back and saying that they're doing a thing that they're really focused on quality. So that's just like a dispute I have. I think a lot of people take way too long to do things.

26:28

When when I see, like, a Robert Green or Robert Carroll or, you know, one of these greats,

When when I see, like, a Robert Green or Robert Carroll or, you know, one of these greats,

26:33

I'm, like, I see the, I see the five years. Like, it's obvious. Like, You were, like, Robert Green, it was telling me the other day. He's, like, seven months into a chapter

I'm, like, I see the, I see the five years. Like, it's obvious. Like, You were, like, Robert Green, it was telling me the other day. He's, like, seven months into a chapter

26:44

on this book that he's writing right now. And when I read that chapter,

on this book that he's writing right now. And when I read that chapter,

26:48

I'll see every fucking day. Right? Because, like, that he's not lying.

I'll see every fucking day. Right? Because, like, that he's not lying.

26:53

Dude, when I read Robert Green and,

Dude, when I read Robert Green and,

26:56

the, what's his, what's Carol's book Moses?

the, what's his, what's Carol's book Moses?

26:58

Yeah. The Robert Moses book? Robert Moses. And then I just got done reading the rise of the third Reich. Which is, like, which is, like, a fifteen hundred or thirteen hundred word, like, epic. And then at pretty much, like, Titan is like this too. Anything Ron Turnow does? Yes. Every sentence,

Yeah. The Robert Moses book? Robert Moses. And then I just got done reading the rise of the third Reich. Which is, like, which is, like, a fifteen hundred or thirteen hundred word, like, epic. And then at pretty much, like, Titan is like this too. Anything Ron Turnow does? Yes. Every sentence,

27:14

like, to me, it's like a life's work. And if they're lucky, they can maybe get three of them. Yes. Then I read those things and they make me depressed because I just think, like, I I can never do anything this detailed oriented, this beautiful, like, it it those his it's I think it's mostly history books. Every single sentence,

like, to me, it's like a life's work. And if they're lucky, they can maybe get three of them. Yes. Then I read those things and they make me depressed because I just think, like, I I can never do anything this detailed oriented, this beautiful, like, it it those his it's I think it's mostly history books. Every single sentence,

27:32

is amazing. And I don't understand how you could do that for so long. Yeah. This is the William Manchester series on Churchill, which I would highly recommend.

is amazing. And I don't understand how you could do that for so long. Yeah. This is the William Manchester series on Churchill, which I would highly recommend.

27:40

This is the Taylor Branch series on Martin Luther King, also incredible.

This is the Taylor Branch series on Martin Luther King, also incredible.

27:45

In the acknowledgements

In the acknowledgements

27:47

of the last book in,

of the last book in,

27:49

the the King series,

the the King series,

27:51

Taylor Branch talks about how

Taylor Branch talks about how

27:53

his youngest son was born,

his youngest son was born,

27:55

like the day he started the series,

like the day he started the series,

27:58

and then took a break from college to help him finish the last book. That's crazy, man. It is so nuts. Those are really, like, life's work.

and then took a break from college to help him finish the last book. That's crazy, man. It is so nuts. Those are really, like, life's work.

28:07

They are, and it's not just that every sentence is perfect, but, like, we don't see if you think about the iceberg, we don't see the research, the interviews,

They are, and it's not just that every sentence is perfect, but, like, we don't see if you think about the iceberg, we don't see the research, the interviews,

28:16

Right? The on, like, location observing that went into forming one of those state the those sentences. So, yeah. Like, there's definitely people who there's a reason they only do or three things in their lifetime.

Right? The on, like, location observing that went into forming one of those state the those sentences. So, yeah. Like, there's definitely people who there's a reason they only do or three things in their lifetime.

28:28

And then there's everybody else. And chances are, like,

And then there's everybody else. And chances are, like,

28:32

you're everybody else.

you're everybody else.

28:33

And so,

And so,

28:36

There's that. And then as far as the YouTube videos go, I do a couple different ones. Like,

There's that. And then as far as the YouTube videos go, I do a couple different ones. Like,

28:42

what the I think The easiest YouTube videos we do are, like, compilations

what the I think The easiest YouTube videos we do are, like, compilations

28:46

of,

of,

28:47

like, reels or Instagram clips that I do. So there's not a lot of script there. It's just the intro. It's like piecing together sort of, meditations on a larger idea. But if it is a, like, you know, how to read Marcus Aurelius, how to read Seneca,

like, reels or Instagram clips that I do. So there's not a lot of script there. It's just the intro. It's like piecing together sort of, meditations on a larger idea. But if it is a, like, you know, how to read Marcus Aurelius, how to read Seneca,

29:02

or, you know, let me tell you the biography of this stoic or

or, you know, let me tell you the biography of this stoic or

29:06

I have one coming out next week that's about the relationship between Marcus Aurelius and Antonious Pious' stepfather.

I have one coming out next week that's about the relationship between Marcus Aurelius and Antonious Pious' stepfather.

29:13

That's a combination

That's a combination

29:15

between, like, having somebody give me an outline

between, like, having somebody give me an outline

29:17

and then me usually drawing on something that I wrote somewhere else. So for me, the writing, particularly of the books,

and then me usually drawing on something that I wrote somewhere else. So for me, the writing, particularly of the books,

29:25

is what generates the vast majority of the content. And then I have people who help me just just in the way that I don't do the Spanish edition of my books, I have people who help translate what I've done into different mediums.

is what generates the vast majority of the content. And then I have people who help me just just in the way that I don't do the Spanish edition of my books, I have people who help translate what I've done into different mediums.

29:38

Are you using Google Docs?

Are you using Google Docs?

29:40

Yeah. For the for the most part. Yeah.

Yeah. For the for the most part. Yeah.

29:42

And how big's the team?

And how big's the team?

29:47

Like, ten people now, probably.

Like, ten people now, probably.

29:50

And that includes the bookstore.

And that includes the bookstore.

29:53

And also, does it include daily stoic and,

And also, does it include daily stoic and,

29:57

daily dad? Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying that I probably have ten employees. Maybe maybe eleven or twelve. But but

daily dad? Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying that I probably have ten employees. Maybe maybe eleven or twelve. But but

30:03

less than fifteen.

less than fifteen.

30:05

Dude, that is crazy, man. The output is this awesome. I I I think that's amazing.

Dude, that is crazy, man. The output is this awesome. I I I think that's amazing.

30:12

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30:15

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See most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually looks gorgeous. I think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. Hub spot. Girl better.

30:27

I was messaging you the other day because,

I was messaging you the other day because,

30:30

someone was like, hey, you should start a book club to me. And I'm like, well, I read a lot, but, like, you Ryan should really start it. Like, someone like that. And I looked I a while ago, I looked in the book of the month as the book of it's called Book of the Month. And it's like a company that's been around for, like, fifty six maybe even a hundred years. It's been around for a long time, and it's traded hands a ton. I think right now, last I heard, they're in the seventy million range of revenue.

someone was like, hey, you should start a book club to me. And I'm like, well, I read a lot, but, like, you Ryan should really start it. Like, someone like that. And I looked I a while ago, I looked in the book of the month as the book of it's called Book of the Month. And it's like a company that's been around for, like, fifty six maybe even a hundred years. It's been around for a long time, and it's traded hands a ton. I think right now, last I heard, they're in the seventy million range of revenue.

30:53

Which is a a big business, but I don't know if it's growing, and I don't know if that makes a profit. I don't know what this situation is. But

Which is a a big business, but I don't know if it's growing, and I don't know if that makes a profit. I don't know what this situation is. But

30:58

have you looked in these book of the month businesses? I think re reese withers been had one too that I think was profitable. Yeah. There's a there's a couple different ones. There's another company called Litterati.

have you looked in these book of the month businesses? I think re reese withers been had one too that I think was profitable. Yeah. There's a there's a couple different ones. There's another company called Litterati.

31:08

Book of the month. The book of the month concept definitely goes back,

Book of the month. The book of the month concept definitely goes back,

31:12

quite a bit. And that used to be, like, a way that you would guarantee a book success would be if you were selected to one of those clubs because they might buy a hundred thousand copies or something.

quite a bit. And that used to be, like, a way that you would guarantee a book success would be if you were selected to one of those clubs because they might buy a hundred thousand copies or something.

31:24

There's and then there's, what is it called? The next big idea book club, which I think Malcolm Gladwell is an investor in. There's there's a there's a handful of them.

There's and then there's, what is it called? The next big idea book club, which I think Malcolm Gladwell is an investor in. There's there's a there's a handful of them.

31:34

The problem with the business is

The problem with the business is

31:37

First off, not that many people read. Right?

First off, not that many people read. Right?

31:40

Unfortunately.

Unfortunately.

31:42

Second,

Second,

31:44

the logistics

the logistics

31:45

of it are what is tough. Right? So, like, at the very best,

of it are what is tough. Right? So, like, at the very best,

31:49

you're gonna be able to get those books from, like, let's say you're doing physical. Right? At the very, very best, you're gonna be able to get those books at fifty percent off from the publisher.

you're gonna be able to get those books from, like, let's say you're doing physical. Right? At the very, very best, you're gonna be able to get those books at fifty percent off from the publisher.

32:00

So

So

32:01

if you start to get into,

if you start to get into,

32:05

You know, like,

You know, like,

32:07

it it drives the subscription. Like, already, your subscription

it it drives the subscription. Like, already, your subscription

32:11

is more than Netflix. Which gets you unlimited

is more than Netflix. Which gets you unlimited

32:14

of the best most entertaining content in the world. Right? So the the really tough part is getting to a place

of the best most entertaining content in the world. Right? So the the really tough part is getting to a place

32:21

where

where

32:22

you can move a lot of books

you can move a lot of books

32:24

and

and

32:25

the revenue is high. So

the revenue is high. So

32:27

I started this newsletter, like, fifteen years ago where I just recommend books.

I started this newsletter, like, fifteen years ago where I just recommend books.

32:32

Would you have, like, two hundred and fifty thousand people now on it? Something like that. Yeah. And and

Would you have, like, two hundred and fifty thousand people now on it? Something like that. Yeah. And and

32:37

I just prefer to like, look, if you wanna buy the book from my bookstore, I make a little bit of money doing that. If you buy it from Amazon, I get the commission.

I just prefer to like, look, if you wanna buy the book from my bookstore, I make a little bit of money doing that. If you buy it from Amazon, I get the commission.

32:45

But I'd much rather just have that list and that audience

But I'd much rather just have that list and that audience

32:49

than try to monetize a book club itself because the bundle

than try to monetize a book club itself because the bundle

32:52

of

of

32:55

including the book, plus fulfilling the book, plus customer service, and all that other stuff.

including the book, plus fulfilling the book, plus customer service, and all that other stuff.

33:01

It I think I think it's just hard to make the business itself work.

It I think I think it's just hard to make the business itself work.

33:05

How much revenue can you make on one send?

How much revenue can you make on one send?

33:09

From from the reading list newsletter?

From from the reading list newsletter?

33:12

I don't know.

I don't know.

33:14

I don't know.

I don't know.

33:15

I actually Ten or twenty grand, maybe.

I actually Ten or twenty grand, maybe.

33:18

Yeah. That that would be that would be a a lot.

Yeah. That that would be that would be a a lot.

33:21

Because the the other thing that I found is that the people who read the most,

Because the the other thing that I found is that the people who read the most,

33:26

who, like, real like, like, the kind or at least the kind of readers that I attract, are like I don't wanna say they're lone wolves, but they're more like,

who, like, real like, like, the kind or at least the kind of readers that I attract, are like I don't wanna say they're lone wolves, but they're more like,

33:34

like, I don't know about you, but, like, the way I read is I just have at all times

like, I don't know about you, but, like, the way I read is I just have at all times

33:38

a long list of, like, books I'm going to get around to reading.

a long list of, like, books I'm going to get around to reading.

33:43

I'm not, like, oh, you're reading this book right now. I have space for you in my life. So, like, like, if I think about the impact that the list has had as far as moving copies for books,

I'm not, like, oh, you're reading this book right now. I have space for you in my life. So, like, like, if I think about the impact that the list has had as far as moving copies for books,

33:54

it's not like, oh, we sold

it's not like, oh, we sold

33:58

this many copies of this book this month. It's more over a time. Although I did invest in this company, do you know the company vital me? I think I introduced you to them. Matt Fiedler, the founder is my No, ma'am. Was my high school, who's my high or my cup my very, very, very close college friend. And for those listening, Finally Me, please. It's awesome. I don't know how many I don't remember how many people they have twenty, thirty thousand subscribers, and they send out a record of vinyl, of a piece of vinyl. And I remember he was

this many copies of this book this month. It's more over a time. Although I did invest in this company, do you know the company vital me? I think I introduced you to them. Matt Fiedler, the founder is my No, ma'am. Was my high school, who's my high or my cup my very, very, very close college friend. And for those listening, Finally Me, please. It's awesome. I don't know how many I don't remember how many people they have twenty, thirty thousand subscribers, and they send out a record of vinyl, of a piece of vinyl. And I remember he was

34:24

like, complaining to me. He was like, man, the the, like, we whenever someone gets selected for our vinyl,

like, complaining to me. He was like, man, the the, like, we whenever someone gets selected for our vinyl,

34:30

like, when we pick an album, it becomes the best selling vinyl in the country we're the biggest but but now they're not counting it anymore.

like, when we pick an album, it becomes the best selling vinyl in the country we're the biggest but but now they're not counting it anymore.

34:36

And, Right. It's the same thing we're talking about with the best seller list. They they would be the number one vinyl album in the country each month But but they just get skunked from the billboard charts.

And, Right. It's the same thing we're talking about with the best seller list. They they would be the number one vinyl album in the country each month But but they just get skunked from the billboard charts.

34:45

Yeah. And I I I haven't asked Matt about the business lately, but it's been around for ten years now and it seems to be doing good. I and I but I think that's that's a different experience. Right? So I I'm one I was I guess I'm an adviser. So I I got some early shares in me when it came out. So and that's been a surprisingly big business. Like, I I'm I when I see the numbers, I'm always like, whoa. That's bigger than I would have guessed. Right? You wouldn't you'd think, like, Oh, maybe a thousand people a month, not twenty thousand people a month. Yeah. That's a lot of people.

Yeah. And I I I haven't asked Matt about the business lately, but it's been around for ten years now and it seems to be doing good. I and I but I think that's that's a different experience. Right? So I I'm one I was I guess I'm an adviser. So I I got some early shares in me when it came out. So and that's been a surprisingly big business. Like, I I'm I when I see the numbers, I'm always like, whoa. That's bigger than I would have guessed. Right? You wouldn't you'd think, like, Oh, maybe a thousand people a month, not twenty thousand people a month. Yeah. That's a lot of people.

35:15

But but I think an music is People consume more music than they do books. Right? And you can do it over and over again with a bunch of people. It's a passive experience and the the art of discovery

But but I think an music is People consume more music than they do books. Right? And you can do it over and over again with a bunch of people. It's a passive experience and the the art of discovery

35:28

is

is

35:29

different. Right? Like, you want to be suggested random things on a regular basis. And I I think with a book, like, people have so little room to read in their lives that, I don't know. I just I I

different. Right? Like, you want to be suggested random things on a regular basis. And I I think with a book, like, people have so little room to read in their lives that, I don't know. I just I I

35:42

I like the idea of the business, and it would be amazing to make it work. I have struggled to actually

I like the idea of the business, and it would be amazing to make it work. I have struggled to actually

35:50

see it work. And I think,

see it work. And I think,

35:53

there's probably just ultimately

there's probably just ultimately

35:55

better ways to monetize

better ways to monetize

35:57

that attention

that attention

35:58

than,

than,

36:00

than than a list of subscribers you have to service

than than a list of subscribers you have to service

36:04

each month for a specific kind of book. You said something earlier about like, you get access to all these amazing people. And I follow you on Instagram, and I've talked to you a bit, and I follow all your content, and you are hanging out with, like, all these pleats you're hanging out with billionaires and business people and celebrities and all these interesting people. Who are some of the people who you've met where you said I wanna emulate this particular attribute or the way that they've done this, this, and this, I admire so much, or this person is just wildly impressive. Who do you admire

each month for a specific kind of book. You said something earlier about like, you get access to all these amazing people. And I follow you on Instagram, and I've talked to you a bit, and I follow all your content, and you are hanging out with, like, all these pleats you're hanging out with billionaires and business people and celebrities and all these interesting people. Who are some of the people who you've met where you said I wanna emulate this particular attribute or the way that they've done this, this, and this, I admire so much, or this person is just wildly impressive. Who do you admire

36:32

or,

or,

36:33

of all the people you've met. Oh, that's a good question.

of all the people you've met. Oh, that's a good question.

36:37

You know, I actually talk about this in the in the end of,

You know, I actually talk about this in the in the end of,

36:40

of discipline,

of discipline,

36:41

as I was sort of struggling with the book kind of early in the process. Like,

as I was sort of struggling with the book kind of early in the process. Like,

36:46

one, I was just fucking tired because I've done a lot of books in a very short amount of time. And, like, the idea, it just I don't know. It just wasn't gelling. And, I had lunch with, with Monuj Nobley.

one, I was just fucking tired because I've done a lot of books in a very short amount of time. And, like, the idea, it just I don't know. It just wasn't gelling. And, I had lunch with, with Monuj Nobley.

36:57

We just got inducted in the hall of fame, this month.

We just got inducted in the hall of fame, this month.

37:01

And we were we were having lunch at the at the bookstore. He he'd come out and we were hanging out. And it just sort of struck me

And we were we were having lunch at the at the bookstore. He he'd come out and we were hanging out. And it just sort of struck me

37:08

Like, this dude has four rings.

Like, this dude has four rings.

37:12

Like, he has four championship rings,

Like, he has four championship rings,

37:14

and he has two gold medals.

and he has two gold medals.

37:17

And

And

37:18

is a hall of famer.

is a hall of famer.

37:20

And he was like I I don't wanna say he's a regular person because that sounds like

And he was like I I don't wanna say he's a regular person because that sounds like

37:25

that almost minimizes it. But the point is when you think about someone who has four rings, I think you think more of like a Jordan character

that almost minimizes it. But the point is when you think about someone who has four rings, I think you think more of like a Jordan character

37:33

who is fundamentally

who is fundamentally

37:35

out of balance. Right? Like, so there's no disputing Jordan is Jordan is, like, one of the greats, if not the greatest like, basketball player, maybe athlete as a as a whole. Right?

out of balance. Right? Like, so there's no disputing Jordan is Jordan is, like, one of the greats, if not the greatest like, basketball player, maybe athlete as a as a whole. Right?

37:47

But but we tend to think that that to be that good

But but we tend to think that that to be that good

37:51

requires,

requires,

37:52

like,

like,

37:54

fundamentally,

fundamentally,

37:56

some fundamental

some fundamental

37:57

trade offs about what kind of person you are and what your day to day life looks like. Like,

trade offs about what kind of person you are and what your day to day life looks like. Like,

38:04

Tom Brady. Right? Comes back to football. You can't walk away, and it may well cost him his marriage. Right? And and people see that, and they go, that's what it takes. Right?

Tom Brady. Right? Comes back to football. You can't walk away, and it may well cost him his marriage. Right? And and people see that, and they go, that's what it takes. Right?

38:14

I'm not sure that that is what it takes. That might be, you know, what it took in that specific scenario, but, like, I

I'm not sure that that is what it takes. That might be, you know, what it took in that specific scenario, but, like, I

38:21

the more I meet really successful people, I become less impressed

the more I meet really successful people, I become less impressed

38:26

by, like, how much money they made or, like, you know, whether they have the most rings or the second most rings or whatever it is, and I go like,

by, like, how much money they made or, like, you know, whether they have the most rings or the second most rings or whatever it is, and I go like,

38:36

is this person like a good parent? Do they seem like they live in reality,

is this person like a good parent? Do they seem like they live in reality,

38:41

you know?

you know?

38:43

Are or are they, like, are they actually able to wake up and enjoy, like, what they have today, or is it like they're traveling here and there, and they're just always doing stuff. Right?

Are or are they, like, are they actually able to wake up and enjoy, like, what they have today, or is it like they're traveling here and there, and they're just always doing stuff. Right?

38:55

I I think, like, to me, what the the the journey that I've tried to go on inspired by people like that is

I I think, like, to me, what the the the journey that I've tried to go on inspired by people like that is

39:03

I wanna be world class at what I do

I wanna be world class at what I do

39:07

and and,

and and,

39:09

like,

like,

39:10

be a somewhat of a normal person.

be a somewhat of a normal person.

39:13

Like, who else? It's almost easier to be great than it is to be good, if that makes sense. Yeah. That's awesome.

Like, who else? It's almost easier to be great than it is to be good, if that makes sense. Yeah. That's awesome.

39:20

Who who who else have you, who have you met? So, you know, him and Chris Bosch are interesting. I've read I listened to a bunch of content that you made with those guys. Felt the same way about Chris Bosch when I was listening to him, I'm like, oh, man. This dude's like kinda

Who who who else have you, who have you met? So, you know, him and Chris Bosch are interesting. I've read I listened to a bunch of content that you made with those guys. Felt the same way about Chris Bosch when I was listening to him, I'm like, oh, man. This dude's like kinda

39:34

yeah. Maybe normal's insulting, but, like, that's what it I was like, you're

yeah. Maybe normal's insulting, but, like, that's what it I was like, you're

39:38

I'm never gonna be seven feet tall, but, like, you know, like, your mentality is achievable.

I'm never gonna be seven feet tall, but, like, you know, like, your mentality is achievable.

39:42

You know what I mean? Well, it's it's kind of funny as I I do feel the same way about Chris and and his wife and and my wife of friends.

You know what I mean? Well, it's it's kind of funny as I I do feel the same way about Chris and and his wife and and my wife of friends.

39:51

But, like,

But, like,

39:53

every once in a while, I'll mention one of them to the other, and then I forget that they

every once in a while, I'll mention one of them to the other, and then I forget that they

39:58

Chris said something to me, actually, when I had him on the daily stoke podcast. He's like, you know, He's elbowed me in the face, like, a lot.

Chris said something to me, actually, when I had him on the daily stoke podcast. He's like, you know, He's elbowed me in the face, like, a lot.

40:06

Like, like, it was like realizing, like, like, their best and worst moments came,

Like, like, it was like realizing, like, like, their best and worst moments came,

40:12

like, the the moment in both of their careers

like, the the moment in both of their careers

40:16

came at each other's expense.

came at each other's expense.

40:18

Right? Like, like,

Right? Like, like,

40:20

Manu goes up for a rebound that that Chris gets,

Manu goes up for a rebound that that Chris gets,

40:24

that Chris tips back to Ray Allen, who makes a three pointer to win to basically win the series. Right? Like, it it is also weird to think. Like, yeah, I hear these, like, kind of two people that I admire, and then they're on, like, their careers were, like, on a collision course with each other. Are they buddies now? I don't think so. No. I don't think so. Even though they, like, They live not far from each other. Right? One's in San Antonio, one's in Austin, and I I do not think that they see each other socially. That it might take some time. Like, maybe maybe in twenty years,

that Chris tips back to Ray Allen, who makes a three pointer to win to basically win the series. Right? Like, it it is also weird to think. Like, yeah, I hear these, like, kind of two people that I admire, and then they're on, like, their careers were, like, on a collision course with each other. Are they buddies now? I don't think so. No. I don't think so. Even though they, like, They live not far from each other. Right? One's in San Antonio, one's in Austin, and I I do not think that they see each other socially. That it might take some time. Like, maybe maybe in twenty years,

40:55

the that rivalry fades away. Is there anyone else that you've met? And you're like, man, the way that you're pulling this off or the way that you're playing life. I just admire so much.

the that rivalry fades away. Is there anyone else that you've met? And you're like, man, the way that you're pulling this off or the way that you're playing life. I just admire so much.

41:04

Well, you know, it was I had a weird one, couple weeks ago. I I, I don't wanna say who it is. I'd it not because I it I feel weird,

Well, you know, it was I had a weird one, couple weeks ago. I I, I don't wanna say who it is. I'd it not because I it I feel weird,

41:13

dropping the name. But anyways, let's just say, I met this musician,

dropping the name. But anyways, let's just say, I met this musician,

41:16

and, he'd read the books, and he reached out to me through someone we know. And he was like, hey, you know, next time you're in New York, you should come see me. Let me know. I'd love to have dinner with you. So I was like, hey, I'm actually gonna be in New York, like, next And he's like, oh, alright. My assistant will, like, send you the details. And,

and, he'd read the books, and he reached out to me through someone we know. And he was like, hey, you know, next time you're in New York, you should come see me. Let me know. I'd love to have dinner with you. So I was like, hey, I'm actually gonna be in New York, like, next And he's like, oh, alright. My assistant will, like, send you the details. And,

41:31

the details were,

the details were,

41:33

like, go to this helipad

like, go to this helipad

41:35

And then the helicopter took me,

And then the helicopter took me,

41:37

and his son and, our mutual friend to their house in the Hampton's where we had dinner, and then it flew us back. To Manhattan after dinner.

and his son and, our mutual friend to their house in the Hampton's where we had dinner, and then it flew us back. To Manhattan after dinner.

41:46

What? Yeah. It was fucking nuts. It was super nuts. But, like, talking to this person,

What? Yeah. It was fucking nuts. It was super nuts. But, like, talking to this person,

41:52

He was like, I was like, so what's going on with you? And he's like, well, you know, my youngest just went away to college. So we're empty nest like, we're gonna spend an extra couple weeks here in the Hamptons.

He was like, I was like, so what's going on with you? And he's like, well, you know, my youngest just went away to college. So we're empty nest like, we're gonna spend an extra couple weeks here in the Hamptons.

42:02

And it was like,

And it was like,

42:05

again, I think at the end of your life, And you when you reflect on

again, I think at the end of your life, And you when you reflect on

42:11

whether you were successful or not,

whether you were successful or not,

42:13

you're gonna think, like, what is Do my kids want to spend time with me or not? Like, am I what it am I on my fourth marriage or am I my first marriage? And he's He's been he's still with his high school sweetheart, right, despite selling a hundred million albums in between

you're gonna think, like, what is Do my kids want to spend time with me or not? Like, am I what it am I on my fourth marriage or am I my first marriage? And he's He's been he's still with his high school sweetheart, right, despite selling a hundred million albums in between

42:31

meeting

meeting

42:32

and, like, the day that I was there. He's he has a business that he founded with his son. Like,

and, like, the day that I was there. He's he has a business that he founded with his son. Like,

42:38

I I like, to me,

I I like, to me,

42:41

when I see stuff like that, I'm like, okay. This is fundamentally not normal, and that, like,

when I see stuff like that, I'm like, okay. This is fundamentally not normal, and that, like,

42:47

we just flew on a helicopter to have dinner. And that was, like,

we just flew on a helicopter to have dinner. And that was, like,

42:51

you know, like a wave of the hand for you, but that fundamentally

you know, like a wave of the hand for you, but that fundamentally

42:55

you still worked very hard to remain rooted

you still worked very hard to remain rooted

42:59

in some semblance of normalcy

in some semblance of normalcy

43:02

where your kids are not monsters

where your kids are not monsters

43:05

and,

and,

43:06

you're

you're

43:07

you like spending time together.

you like spending time together.

43:09

You, one of my favorite books is conspiracy, which is, Nick Denton, I believe. Is that his name Nick Denton? Yeah. Yeah. Nick Denton, the founder of Gawker and Peter Till. And there's just so many moments in that book where I've been like, oh my god. I cannot believe that. That's true. And basically, like, the fact that, like, Peter Tehl plotted and had people on staff for, like, some amount of years, five or ten years, like, a long time in order to, like, hey, when you see Gawker screw up, you tell me and we're gonna and we're gonna sue them because they outed me out as being gay. Or you also told another story about how Peter Till had a Mercedes

You, one of my favorite books is conspiracy, which is, Nick Denton, I believe. Is that his name Nick Denton? Yeah. Yeah. Nick Denton, the founder of Gawker and Peter Till. And there's just so many moments in that book where I've been like, oh my god. I cannot believe that. That's true. And basically, like, the fact that, like, Peter Tehl plotted and had people on staff for, like, some amount of years, five or ten years, like, a long time in order to, like, hey, when you see Gawker screw up, you tell me and we're gonna and we're gonna sue them because they outed me out as being gay. Or you also told another story about how Peter Till had a Mercedes

43:43

a black Mercedes everywhere he went that was just ready to roll in case anything bad happened. And I don't know if this was in the book or if I'm making this up, but I'm almost positive there was like a plane to New Zealand that, like, you he knew about or something like that. Is that true or am I making that up? The Mercedes thing is in the book. The New Zealand plane thing that sounds true,

a black Mercedes everywhere he went that was just ready to roll in case anything bad happened. And I don't know if this was in the book or if I'm making this up, but I'm almost positive there was like a plane to New Zealand that, like, you he knew about or something like that. Is that true or am I making that up? The Mercedes thing is in the book. The New Zealand plane thing that sounds true,

44:02

but it it that I think his New Zealand citizenship came after I finished the book.

but it it that I think his New Zealand citizenship came after I finished the book.

44:07

Yeah. Just like all this crazy stuff. What, Sure. What was it like?

Yeah. Just like all this crazy stuff. What, Sure. What was it like?

44:12

Getting to know that guy. I mean, he he's one of those guys where, like, I I actually don't think there is. I don't know him, but where there actually is no balance and he is just really quirky.

Getting to know that guy. I mean, he he's one of those guys where, like, I I actually don't think there is. I don't know him, but where there actually is no balance and he is just really quirky.

44:21

Well, I think,

Well, I think,

44:23

it's it's both it's both

it's it's both it's both

44:25

very

very

44:26

understandable and then very inexplicable. Right? Like, If you

understandable and then very inexplicable. Right? Like, If you

44:30

had

had

44:31

made billions of dollars and

made billions of dollars and

44:34

you were very powerful,

you were very powerful,

44:36

I don't think you would like to be picked on. Right? Like, I think people were like, why would he do this? And it's like, would this this this bully came along and humiliated him in his eyes. Like, I I don't, like, not being a gay man. I I can't really

I don't think you would like to be picked on. Right? Like, I think people were like, why would he do this? And it's like, would this this this bully came along and humiliated him in his eyes. Like, I I don't, like, not being a gay man. I I can't really

44:51

fully understand

fully understand

44:53

what what the reaction would be to being outed. And and and the, a number of people that I that I interviewed for the book who were gay, Like, they didn't even understand. So, like, let's just let's just stipulate

what what the reaction would be to being outed. And and and the, a number of people that I that I interviewed for the book who were gay, Like, they didn't even understand. So, like, let's just let's just stipulate

45:05

that

that

45:06

his explanation

his explanation

45:08

of his experience was that this was humiliating

of his experience was that this was humiliating

45:11

and he found it to be very frustrating.

and he found it to be very frustrating.

45:16

I think when you're at that level, one of the feelings that you don't sit that doesn't sit well with you is impotence.

I think when you're at that level, one of the feelings that you don't sit that doesn't sit well with you is impotence.

45:24

Right? Like so when people are like, Peter, there's just nothing you can do about it. He was like, then what the fuck is the point of everything I've done. Right? And so so in that sense, I think it's very understandable.

Right? Like so when people are like, Peter, there's just nothing you can do about it. He was like, then what the fuck is the point of everything I've done. Right? And so so in that sense, I think it's very understandable.

45:37

I think

I think

45:39

that the problem is if you're the kind of person who's,

that the problem is if you're the kind of person who's,

45:43

like, I'm gonna spend ten years

like, I'm gonna spend ten years

45:46

chasing down this media outlet. When everyone is telling me not to do that,

chasing down this media outlet. When everyone is telling me not to do that,

45:50

you're also the kind of person

you're also the kind of person

45:53

who can get sucked into

who can get sucked into

45:55

other things that I think are gonna pay off less well, whether it's backing JD Vance or Blake Masters or some of the other political

other things that I think are gonna pay off less well, whether it's backing JD Vance or Blake Masters or some of the other political

46:02

bets that he's made.

bets that he's made.

46:05

You know, I do I I find the sort of anger

You know, I do I I find the sort of anger

46:08

and the

and the

46:10

resentment

resentment

46:11

of what it seems to be driving that. I've I've I have trouble I have trouble understanding

of what it seems to be driving that. I've I've I have trouble I have trouble understanding

46:17

it. Dude, I don't have trouble understanding that. I get so I I I don't. It just it comes from at least for me, like, I would have done the same thing. If, like, if you're if you have money and power and someone wrongs you, I wanna I I have that same mentality where I'm like, I wanna crush them. Typically, I've got my wife saying, like, Dude, chill. You're this isn't worth it. And so, like, I listened to her. But if I didn't have her, I'd be like, no. No. No. We're gonna let's destroy them. And it comes from No. No. I get that. I get that. That, I understand. That's the count of Montecristo. That's the oldest revenge story of, of, of history. I'm saying more

it. Dude, I don't have trouble understanding that. I get so I I I don't. It just it comes from at least for me, like, I would have done the same thing. If, like, if you're if you have money and power and someone wrongs you, I wanna I I have that same mentality where I'm like, I wanna crush them. Typically, I've got my wife saying, like, Dude, chill. You're this isn't worth it. And so, like, I listened to her. But if I didn't have her, I'd be like, no. No. No. We're gonna let's destroy them. And it comes from No. No. I get that. I get that. That, I understand. That's the count of Montecristo. That's the oldest revenge story of, of, of history. I'm saying more

46:50

the other thing like, the problem is,

the other thing like, the problem is,

46:54

when you sort of start to feel like you can bend the world to your will, that you can do anything and everything. I think you get sucked down other avenues.

when you sort of start to feel like you can bend the world to your will, that you can do anything and everything. I think you get sucked down other avenues.

47:03

And I think some of the political bets he's made,

And I think some of the political bets he's made,

47:07

you know, even even Trump himself. Like, the fact that it worked,

you know, even even Trump himself. Like, the fact that it worked,

47:12

doesn't mean that it made rational sense. But how do you feel like that. I mean, with my

doesn't mean that it made rational sense. But how do you feel like that. I mean, with my

47:17

very, very small amount of internet fame and my

very, very small amount of internet fame and my

47:22

mediocre to small

mediocre to small

47:24

financial success. I'm like, oh, like, I just I bent the, you know, in in in a I'm a big fish sometimes in a small pond and I'm a small fish in a big pond. But I'll be like, Oh, sick. I just I bent the that's I say it all the time. I bent the world to my reality. Like, I just made my my true the thing I wanted to be true, I made it true. And that is incredibly intoxicating. I think that there's lots of ways to do that. There's lot if you wrote a book and millions of people read it, there's a way to do that. If you become powerful in politics is the way to do that. If you the easiest and most practical way for most people is if you learn how to make money on your own, then you're like, oh, like, whatever I want. Turn into reality. I have a joke. I call myself a manifest cowboy. Like, I just make I make the things that I want to I the things I think of, I am not a business person. I am an expert at making things that I think of be real. And even at a small scale, I get intoxicated like that. In by I get intoxicated by it. Do you not?

financial success. I'm like, oh, like, I just I bent the, you know, in in in a I'm a big fish sometimes in a small pond and I'm a small fish in a big pond. But I'll be like, Oh, sick. I just I bent the that's I say it all the time. I bent the world to my reality. Like, I just made my my true the thing I wanted to be true, I made it true. And that is incredibly intoxicating. I think that there's lots of ways to do that. There's lot if you wrote a book and millions of people read it, there's a way to do that. If you become powerful in politics is the way to do that. If you the easiest and most practical way for most people is if you learn how to make money on your own, then you're like, oh, like, whatever I want. Turn into reality. I have a joke. I call myself a manifest cowboy. Like, I just make I make the things that I want to I the things I think of, I am not a business person. I am an expert at making things that I think of be real. And even at a small scale, I get intoxicated like that. In by I get intoxicated by it. Do you not?

48:16

I I have seen up close. I I I feel like very lucky that up close and personal multiple times, particularly early on my career,

I I have seen up close. I I I feel like very lucky that up close and personal multiple times, particularly early on my career,

48:26

I saw people who who had the ability to do that,

I saw people who who had the ability to do that,

48:30

also destroy themselves.

also destroy themselves.

48:32

Right? So Like, I I direct Dev Charlie was my direct boss. Right? Like, he would call me

Right? So Like, I I direct Dev Charlie was my direct boss. Right? Like, he would call me

48:39

five times a day. And I watch a guy who built a multibillion dollar company that made fifty million t shirts a year.

five times a day. And I watch a guy who built a multibillion dollar company that made fifty million t shirts a year.

48:48

You know,

You know,

48:49

start something. I I mean, I didn't seem to start it, but I let let's let's put it this way. The the the arc of the entrepreneurial

start something. I I mean, I didn't seem to start it, but I let let's let's put it this way. The the the arc of the entrepreneurial

48:55

journey, the the beauty and the danger of it is that you have an idea for something that

journey, the the beauty and the danger of it is that you have an idea for something that

49:01

is insane.

is insane.

49:02

Right? Like, people are like, that will never work. Here's all the reasons you will fail.

Right? Like, people are like, that will never work. Here's all the reasons you will fail.

49:07

Do not do that, you will regret it. Right? And then you do it, and it works. Right? That's that's the definition of what entrepreneurship

Do not do that, you will regret it. Right? And then you do it, and it works. Right? That's that's the definition of what entrepreneurship

49:15

does. If everyone

does. If everyone

49:17

knew how to do it or if it was easy, it would have already been done. You were able to create something from nothing

knew how to do it or if it was easy, it would have already been done. You were able to create something from nothing

49:22

a, you know, that violates

a, you know, that violates

49:25

everyone else's conception of what's possible.

everyone else's conception of what's possible.

49:27

The dangerous thing you take from that is you now, as you said, see yourself as a person who does that, and you see people who tell you that you can't do it or shouldn't do it or criticize you for doing it, you see them as the enemy. Right? So when Doug Charlie is like, I'm gonna start a made in USA, sweatshop free, fashion company that doesn't print its brand on things,

The dangerous thing you take from that is you now, as you said, see yourself as a person who does that, and you see people who tell you that you can't do it or shouldn't do it or criticize you for doing it, you see them as the enemy. Right? So when Doug Charlie is like, I'm gonna start a made in USA, sweatshop free, fashion company that doesn't print its brand on things,

49:53

doesn't use professional models

doesn't use professional models

49:55

and owns all of its own stores, and I'm gonna sell all those products for an enormous premium.

and owns all of its own stores, and I'm gonna sell all those products for an enormous premium.

50:00

Like, that's that's fucking nuts. Right? Like, no part of that should work. So then he does it. And then people are like,

Like, that's that's fucking nuts. Right? Like, no part of that should work. So then he does it. And then people are like,

50:07

Okay. You did it, but you should really have seasoned operators around you. You know, you really shouldn't over expand too quickly. You know,

Okay. You did it, but you should really have seasoned operators around you. You know, you really shouldn't over expand too quickly. You know,

50:16

By the way, it's not proper to have sexual relations with your employees. Right? All these things that they told him. He was like, Fuck you, who are you to tell me, look at what I've done. Right? And so he crashes and burns as a result of

By the way, it's not proper to have sexual relations with your employees. Right? All these things that they told him. He was like, Fuck you, who are you to tell me, look at what I've done. Right? And so he crashes and burns as a result of

50:30

this exactly what you said. Like, I'm a manifest cowboy.

this exactly what you said. Like, I'm a manifest cowboy.

50:33

The rules don't apply to me. I can bend reality to my will. Like, Do you do you ever you you ever heard that expression, the political expression about the reality based community?

The rules don't apply to me. I can bend reality to my will. Like, Do you do you ever you you ever heard that expression, the political expression about the reality based community?

50:44

Do you know that? No. What's that? So So as as George, as George Bush was contemplating

Do you know that? No. What's that? So So as as George, as George Bush was contemplating

50:49

the invasion of Iraq, I think it was Carl Rove, but I I've one of one of the officials in the Bush administration

the invasion of Iraq, I think it was Carl Rove, but I I've one of one of the officials in the Bush administration

50:55

you know, is responding to all the people who are like, it's gonna be an enormous quagmire.

you know, is responding to all the people who are like, it's gonna be an enormous quagmire.

51:00

You're not gonna get the like, right now, you have no international support.

You're not gonna get the like, right now, you have no international support.

51:04

Bob, it's gonna cost this, you know, and they go, look, he's like, there's two kinds of people. He's like, there's the people who live in the reality based community.

Bob, it's gonna cost this, you know, and they go, look, he's like, there's two kinds of people. He's like, there's the people who live in the reality based community.

51:13

And then the people who believe in America, it basically says who believe in American exceptionalism,

And then the people who believe in America, it basically says who believe in American exceptionalism,

51:19

who believes that America creates his own creates its own reality.

who believes that America creates his own creates its own reality.

51:23

Bends the rules,

Bends the rules,

51:25

the order of the world to its will. And so they believed as they went into Iraq that, yeah, it was a bad idea for all these reasons. But that could be changed through force of will and confidence and firepower, etcetera. But they're not always wrong.

the order of the world to its will. And so they believed as they went into Iraq that, yeah, it was a bad idea for all these reasons. But that could be changed through force of will and confidence and firepower, etcetera. But they're not always wrong.

51:40

But but it but it's it's not true. Maybe in that case, but, like, the that that feeling is

But but it but it's it's not true. Maybe in that case, but, like, the that that feeling is

51:46

cousins to Yeah.

cousins to Yeah.

51:48

Cousins to the other to it working. Do you know what I mean to Totally. Where where where's Genobally from?

Cousins to the other to it working. Do you know what I mean to Totally. Where where where's Genobally from?

51:54

Argentina.

Argentina.

51:55

Like, this Argentinian dude is gonna come and, like, be the boss and, like, kill it and, like, you know what I mean? Like, that that they're they're cousins.

Like, this Argentinian dude is gonna come and, like, be the boss and, like, kill it and, like, you know what I mean? Like, that that they're they're cousins.

52:03

Yes. But, but here's the thing, like, when you look at Manu's story, he did not wake up one day in Argentina and go, I will be a hall of fame NBA player. Right? He makes his way like, almost all those journeys are much smaller and humbler than that. Right? He makes the Argentinian

Yes. But, but here's the thing, like, when you look at Manu's story, he did not wake up one day in Argentina and go, I will be a hall of fame NBA player. Right? He makes his way like, almost all those journeys are much smaller and humbler than that. Right? He makes the Argentinian

52:19

team.

team.

52:20

Now he's pretty good. He gets you know, he gets an opportunity to play in Europe, where he plays. He gets drafted, like,

Now he's pretty good. He gets you know, he gets an opportunity to play in Europe, where he plays. He gets drafted, like,

52:28

very late.

very late.

52:29

Total surprise. He not actually even entered the draft. He was just drafted by the Spurs who let him play in Europe for, like, three years before he comes over. Almost nobody believed in him. I mean, he knew what he he knew he was good, and he was confident in his abilities.

Total surprise. He not actually even entered the draft. He was just drafted by the Spurs who let him play in Europe for, like, three years before he comes over. Almost nobody believed in him. I mean, he knew what he he knew he was good, and he was confident in his abilities.

52:45

But there was not these delusions of grant. He was not Kanye west going around saying, I'm Steve Jobs. Right? Like, this was he he was, like,

But there was not these delusions of grant. He was not Kanye west going around saying, I'm Steve Jobs. Right? Like, this was he he was, like,

52:54

in the Churchill book. They talk about this. Churchill did not

in the Churchill book. They talk about this. Churchill did not

52:58

at the at when when Britain is standing alone.

at the at when when Britain is standing alone.

53:04

He does not in he does not know for certain that he will be able to bring America into the war and that you're like, what what what Churchill does is he buys

He does not in he does not know for certain that he will be able to bring America into the war and that you're like, what what what Churchill does is he buys

53:14

some time. Right? Like, all of these things start small

some time. Right? Like, all of these things start small

53:19

and they build.

and they build.

53:20

They're when when the person has this vision

They're when when the person has this vision

53:24

that they can clearly articulate that they know to be, like, that to me

that they can clearly articulate that they know to be, like, that to me

53:29

That leads to disaster

That leads to disaster

53:31

more often than the prophecy comes true.

more often than the prophecy comes true.

53:34

Dude, that's crazy, fascinating to me. I I gotta keep thinking about that. And but,

Dude, that's crazy, fascinating to me. I I gotta keep thinking about that. And but,

53:39

Another thing that you're associated with that I find, like, equally impressive,

Another thing that you're associated with that I find, like, equally impressive,

53:44

even though it's much smaller now to all the other things that you've done is the ghost town, Sarah Gordo, which I'm a very, very, very small investor in. But the reason why it's awesome is

even though it's much smaller now to all the other things that you've done is the ghost town, Sarah Gordo, which I'm a very, very, very small investor in. But the reason why it's awesome is

53:55

no. You're not a small investor. You're the guy.

no. You're not a small investor. You're the guy.

53:58

The reason why I just forgot.

The reason why I just forgot.

54:00

Well, you're you're you're I I view you, Brent, and Nathan.

Well, you're you're you're I I view you, Brent, and Nathan.

54:05

Nathan Barry has, like,

Nathan Barry has, like,

54:06

you know, the the guys. But

you know, the the guys. But

54:09

so basically, like, in two thousand and fifteen or fourteen, you guys, like, you know, got some money together and you bought town that went viral because it was like, you can buy a whole town for one point three million dollars, a ghost town. And you guys bought it, and it was like doing okay, whatever.

so basically, like, in two thousand and fifteen or fourteen, you guys, like, you know, got some money together and you bought town that went viral because it was like, you can buy a whole town for one point three million dollars, a ghost town. And you guys bought it, and it was like doing okay, whatever.

54:22

And then the pandemic hit and Brent spin ups this YouTube channel. And it felt like in a matter of six months, it got a million subscribers. And I remember being in my department in San Francisco miserable that I'm trapped in this place, and I see these videos of him. And it's like the it felt like it got me through the first like twelve months of the pandemic watching those videos. Like, I felt so much better watching these like twenty or thirty minute videos of this charming cute dude named Brent, like, saying like, hey, so here's this old mind that I just found in my town. Let's just, like, you know, walk a hundred feet into this mine and let's just see what we find. And it's when you think of a mind, you think of like a cave and this was like a like, a crawl space. And he just, like, it's going deep in these places. And that was amazing. What what,

And then the pandemic hit and Brent spin ups this YouTube channel. And it felt like in a matter of six months, it got a million subscribers. And I remember being in my department in San Francisco miserable that I'm trapped in this place, and I see these videos of him. And it's like the it felt like it got me through the first like twelve months of the pandemic watching those videos. Like, I felt so much better watching these like twenty or thirty minute videos of this charming cute dude named Brent, like, saying like, hey, so here's this old mind that I just found in my town. Let's just, like, you know, walk a hundred feet into this mine and let's just see what we find. And it's when you think of a mind, you think of like a cave and this was like a like, a crawl space. And he just, like, it's going deep in these places. And that was amazing. What what,

55:06

what, what's your feeling on how everything's going with that? And, like, what's the plan? Well, I mean, a hundred feet in a mine, one of the mines is nine hundred feet straight down that he regularly goes in. It's fucking insane.

what, what's your feeling on how everything's going with that? And, like, what's the plan? Well, I mean, a hundred feet in a mine, one of the mines is nine hundred feet straight down that he regularly goes in. It's fucking insane.

55:18

It's crazy. His videos are so good. Did you advise him? Or you guys were partners on something? Does he did he get the content buck from you? Are you advising him? How is this shit so good? It's an amazing story. It actually goes to what we're just talking about. Like, the the idea in it as an outsider or or in retrospect, it feels like

It's crazy. His videos are so good. Did you advise him? Or you guys were partners on something? Does he did he get the content buck from you? Are you advising him? How is this shit so good? It's an amazing story. It actually goes to what we're just talking about. Like, the the idea in it as an outsider or or in retrospect, it feels like

55:36

guy makes brilliant investment,

guy makes brilliant investment,

55:38

buys town,

buys town,

55:39

turns it into a YouTube channel, makes these amazing videos

turns it into a YouTube channel, makes these amazing videos

55:43

in the And it seems obvious now. It blows up. Yeah.

in the And it seems obvious now. It blows up. Yeah.

55:47

But that's not how it went at all. Right? Like, first And by the way, what's in the channel?

But that's not how it went at all. Right? Like, first And by the way, what's in the channel?

55:53

Ghostown living. Okay.

Ghostown living. Okay.

55:55

When when he first told me about it, I was like, dude, that's a horrible idea. Not interested at all. Right? Like, I came in at a very small level at first because I didn't think it was a good idea. But Brent's idea was by this place find build a hotel on the site and make it some sort of, like, luxury resort thing that that that they failed to do for, like, two years. Maybe even three years. He had no intention of living up there. It was losing money hand over fist. Right? Like, he How many weeks is it? It's three hundred acres, but it backs up to, like, thousands of acres of government land. So it's And it's, like, in the mountains, unlimited land. Like, four hours outside of LA.

When when he first told me about it, I was like, dude, that's a horrible idea. Not interested at all. Right? Like, I came in at a very small level at first because I didn't think it was a good idea. But Brent's idea was by this place find build a hotel on the site and make it some sort of, like, luxury resort thing that that that they failed to do for, like, two years. Maybe even three years. He had no intention of living up there. It was losing money hand over fist. Right? Like, he How many weeks is it? It's three hundred acres, but it backs up to, like, thousands of acres of government land. So it's And it's, like, in the mountains, unlimited land. Like, four hours outside of LA.

56:34

It's yeah. It's about three and a half hours from LA. It it looks down,

It's yeah. It's about three and a half hours from LA. It it looks down,

56:38

on Death Valley

on Death Valley

56:40

at at about eighty five hundred

at at about eighty five hundred

56:43

feet. It was once the largest silver mine in the United States. But there's, like, no water and electricity. Right? There I was just up there. He he, like, I took a nice warm shower There's water now.

feet. It was once the largest silver mine in the United States. But there's, like, no water and electricity. Right? There I was just up there. He he, like, I took a nice warm shower There's water now.

56:53

Oh, but there wasn't, I guess, is what I mean? There was not. I mean, historically, there were some springs, and then those dried up and mean, it has always been a battle of the elements, but it's funny that you you you bring up how you liked the videos during the pandemic. My four year old fell in love with the videos during the pandemic. And that's part of the reason I ended up investing more money in it was that my son is obsessed.

Oh, but there wasn't, I guess, is what I mean? There was not. I mean, historically, there were some springs, and then those dried up and mean, it has always been a battle of the elements, but it's funny that you you you bring up how you liked the videos during the pandemic. My four year old fell in love with the videos during the pandemic. And that's part of the reason I ended up investing more money in it was that my son is obsessed.

57:13

Like, he knows

Like, he knows

57:15

He had trouble. So Brent started as my intern,

He had trouble. So Brent started as my intern,

57:18

like,

like,

57:19

twelve or thirteen years ago, I think.

twelve or thirteen years ago, I think.

57:23

And my son has met, I mean, he's known Brent his whole life. And it it he's got so

And my son has met, I mean, he's known Brent his whole life. And it it he's got so

57:28

enthralled with the videos.

enthralled with the videos.

57:30

That he had trouble because it was the pandemic. We couldn't see him. He had trouble, like, conceiving

That he had trouble because it was the pandemic. We couldn't see him. He had trouble, like, conceiving

57:35

of the fact that this was a real person that he knew. That this was different than the YouTube channels of other people that he watches that he doesn't know. And so, Brandon, like, this

of the fact that this was a real person that he knew. That this was different than the YouTube channels of other people that he watches that he doesn't know. And so, Brandon, like, this

57:45

he's so charming in these videos and he's so endearing. Like, I don't know. I've not really hung out with him. I've only chatted with him a couple of times. It seems like he just kinda turned on this charm and charisma, and it was, like, intoxicating.

he's so charming in these videos and he's so endearing. Like, I don't know. I've not really hung out with him. I've only chatted with him a couple of times. It seems like he just kinda turned on this charm and charisma, and it was, like, intoxicating.

57:56

He's always been, like, a behind the scenes person, and and I think that's what's so interesting. It's like, yeah, he didn't just randomly start a YouTube channel one day. Like, He started the Daily Stoke YouTube channel, and he started the Daily Stoke podcast. Like, he he was the one who who built out the systems or created the universes for me,

He's always been, like, a behind the scenes person, and and I think that's what's so interesting. It's like, yeah, he didn't just randomly start a YouTube channel one day. Like, He started the Daily Stoke YouTube channel, and he started the Daily Stoke podcast. Like, he he was the one who who built out the systems or created the universes for me,

58:17

and that that I am obviously the face of, but he was the one who was, like, here, I think we should do this. And he's the one that figured, like, you know, we probably had a hundred thousand YouTube subscribers when he

and that that I am obviously the face of, but he was the one who was, like, here, I think we should do this. And he's the one that figured, like, you know, we probably had a hundred thousand YouTube subscribers when he

58:27

went to Sarah Gordo. So he had experience

went to Sarah Gordo. So he had experience

58:30

that he'd learned on the job, so to speak,

that he'd learned on the job, so to speak,

58:34

working with me.

working with me.

58:36

And then the the funny thing is

And then the the funny thing is

58:38

we had shot some videos for daily stoic, like the first week of March twenty twenty or maybe the last week of February.

we had shot some videos for daily stoic, like the first week of March twenty twenty or maybe the last week of February.

58:45

And he had taken the camera home to, like, upload some stuff. And so when he went to Sarah Gordon, he just took my camera or our camera. Like, that Sarah Gordo was started with equipment

And he had taken the camera home to, like, upload some stuff. And so when he went to Sarah Gordon, he just took my camera or our camera. Like, that Sarah Gordo was started with equipment

58:56

that he had got for daily stoic and then used skills that he had developed with daily stoic that ultimately

that he had got for daily stoic and then used skills that he had developed with daily stoic that ultimately

59:04

blew up into this thing that I don't think he definitely not I would have predicted,

blew up into this thing that I don't think he definitely not I would have predicted,

59:09

but, like, people often underestimate

but, like, people often underestimate

59:12

how long you have to spend developing,

how long you have to spend developing,

59:15

like, a baseline of skills before

like, a baseline of skills before

59:19

You know, sort of the man meets the moment, so to speak. Dude, I read that in in mastery. Masterry changed my life. I remember, like, exactly where I was where I read it. And I was like, oh, this this is called apprenticeship. Like Mhmm. And that it totally mastery, you know, I got turned on to you because I was or maybe I don't remember you got me onto green or him to you, but I remember reading Mastery, and that was like a life changing book because it taught taught to talk about that. But,

You know, sort of the man meets the moment, so to speak. Dude, I read that in in mastery. Masterry changed my life. I remember, like, exactly where I was where I read it. And I was like, oh, this this is called apprenticeship. Like Mhmm. And that it totally mastery, you know, I got turned on to you because I was or maybe I don't remember you got me onto green or him to you, but I remember reading Mastery, and that was like a life changing book because it taught taught to talk about that. But,

59:44

Sarah Gordon. Do you ever think about that? Like, do you ever think about the fact that the hustle and this podcast

Sarah Gordon. Do you ever think about that? Like, do you ever think about the fact that the hustle and this podcast

59:49

could actually be the apprenticeship for, like, a company you start in your fifties. That's Oh, it's going to be. It's going to be. And people are like,

could actually be the apprenticeship for, like, a company you start in your fifties. That's Oh, it's going to be. It's going to be. And people are like,

59:58

you know, alright. So the hustle we sold for, let's say, tens of millions of dollars which is like, I think by most people, if you do I think I was I was thirty one thirty when we sold it, which is so like that's six that I would say it's objectively successful. But compared to others, like, it's nothing. Right? Like, compared to the company that bought us, it's nothing. Yeah. You know, they bought us. But, and so a lot of people were like, well, you know, like,

you know, alright. So the hustle we sold for, let's say, tens of millions of dollars which is like, I think by most people, if you do I think I was I was thirty one thirty when we sold it, which is so like that's six that I would say it's objectively successful. But compared to others, like, it's nothing. Right? Like, compared to the company that bought us, it's nothing. Yeah. You know, they bought us. But, and so a lot of people were like, well, you know, like,

01:00:21

you guys only did that in four years. I'm like, yeah, we did it in four years. I also spent four years before that though,

you guys only did that in four years. I'm like, yeah, we did it in four years. I also spent four years before that though,

01:00:28

studying

studying

01:00:29

writing and, like, blogging and reading and, like, being a student.

writing and, like, blogging and reading and, like, being a student.

01:00:33

And I learned a skill, which my skill was copywriting. And that skill led me to this other thing, which led me to this thing, which led me to this other thing. And I often tell people, I'm like,

And I learned a skill, which my skill was copywriting. And that skill led me to this other thing, which led me to this thing, which led me to this other thing. And I often tell people, I'm like,

01:00:43

everyone says overnight successes aren't true. And I'm like, well, in a sense actually, they can be. Like, you could be a Mark Manson or something and, like, write a book and, like, it get really big, really fast.

everyone says overnight successes aren't true. And I'm like, well, in a sense actually, they can be. Like, you could be a Mark Manson or something and, like, write a book and, like, it get really big, really fast.

01:00:53

But

But

01:00:54

It more likely than not. That could happen. Like hitting a lottery is real. Like, look at Instagram,

It more likely than not. That could happen. Like hitting a lottery is real. Like, look at Instagram,

01:00:59

but learning the skill for five or ten years in advance is often necessary.

but learning the skill for five or ten years in advance is often necessary.

01:01:04

Yeah. To give Mark credit though, Mark doesn't hit the lottery. I mean, Mark was an online copywriter and marketer and had a platform

Yeah. To give Mark credit though, Mark doesn't hit the lottery. I mean, Mark was an online copywriter and marketer and had a platform

01:01:13

for a decade before he writes a book. Right? Like Right. But what I mean is, like, the set functions and growth are real. Yeah. You know, like, it could be, like, it's going okay. It's going okay. It's going okay. And then a matter of like a month or three months, it's like, boom. Something just changed. Like, that is real. And I think people actually don't like acknowledging that because the story of, like, slow and steady is preferred because that, like, there's more character to that. But, like,

for a decade before he writes a book. Right? Like Right. But what I mean is, like, the set functions and growth are real. Yeah. You know, like, it could be, like, it's going okay. It's going okay. It's going okay. And then a matter of like a month or three months, it's like, boom. Something just changed. Like, that is real. And I think people actually don't like acknowledging that because the story of, like, slow and steady is preferred because that, like, there's more character to that. But, like,

01:01:35

a step functions exist, but you have to work a certain amount of time typically in order to get that that function. That's what I mean. No. I think about Michael Lewis in that regard. Like, Michael Lewis is is a fantastic writer. He's been a great writer for forty years. He wrote liar's poker, which is about finance. He wrote the blind side. You know, he wrote a number of these books that were that were big, and he was he was a leading non fiction author.

a step functions exist, but you have to work a certain amount of time typically in order to get that that function. That's what I mean. No. I think about Michael Lewis in that regard. Like, Michael Lewis is is a fantastic writer. He's been a great writer for forty years. He wrote liar's poker, which is about finance. He wrote the blind side. You know, he wrote a number of these books that were that were big, and he was he was a leading non fiction author.

01:01:59

And then two thousand eight happens, and it's the most inexplicable, but widespread financial

And then two thousand eight happens, and it's the most inexplicable, but widespread financial

01:02:01

event

event

01:02:08

of, you know, since the great depression,

of, you know, since the great depression,

01:02:11

and he is uniquely suited to write the big short, which was his big transformative

and he is uniquely suited to write the big short, which was his big transformative

01:02:18

you know,

you know,

01:02:19

huge book. Like Money Ball, The Blindside, the other movies that come out, I believe they come out after the big short, Like, Michael Lewis today looks like he's always been huge, but you don't realize his career was sort of like this and then like this. Right? Like, what, like, I I I think about that. I I I am very proud of all of the books that I've written, and I I continue to write them and work on it every day, but I I wanna say a holdout hope, but I

huge book. Like Money Ball, The Blindside, the other movies that come out, I believe they come out after the big short, Like, Michael Lewis today looks like he's always been huge, but you don't realize his career was sort of like this and then like this. Right? Like, what, like, I I I think about that. I I I am very proud of all of the books that I've written, and I I continue to write them and work on it every day, but I I wanna say a holdout hope, but I

01:02:44

I feel like there's some part of me that thinks

I feel like there's some part of me that thinks

01:02:47

all of this is training for, like, the book at the moment. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it it's the moment, but the book only sells ten copies. But, like, I do feel like it's building towards

all of this is training for, like, the book at the moment. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it it's the moment, but the book only sells ten copies. But, like, I do feel like it's building towards

01:03:00

whatever I'm meant to do. Are you not satisfied with your career?

whatever I'm meant to do. Are you not satisfied with your career?

01:03:04

No. I'm I'm very satisfied. Like, I was just writing about this in my journal this morning. Like, When I'm looking at the sales number of this book, this isn't just like what I dreamed of. This is like ten x, what I even conceived of as being possible.

No. I'm I'm very satisfied. Like, I was just writing about this in my journal this morning. Like, When I'm looking at the sales number of this book, this isn't just like what I dreamed of. This is like ten x, what I even conceived of as being possible.

01:03:18

I'm just saying, like,

I'm just saying, like,

01:03:21

I I I want what I'm working on

I I I want what I'm working on

01:03:25

to set me up for,

to set me up for,

01:03:28

like,

like,

01:03:28

something

something

01:03:29

truly challenging,

truly challenging,

01:03:31

so challenging that I or or perfect for my skills

so challenging that I or or perfect for my skills

01:03:35

and what I my worldview

and what I my worldview

01:03:37

that I can't even think of it yet.

that I can't even think of it yet.

01:03:40

Dude, consistently, I've said once I hit this wealth number, I likely won't want anymore. And then I always do. Once I,

Dude, consistently, I've said once I hit this wealth number, I likely won't want anymore. And then I always do. Once I,

01:03:48

lift this much weight or do this type of athletic feat that I've been really working hard towards, like, I'll be happy. And then I get there. I'm like, but we could go a little we could do a little more. So, like,

lift this much weight or do this type of athletic feat that I've been really working hard towards, like, I'll be happy. And then I get there. I'm like, but we could go a little we could do a little more. So, like,

01:03:58

it's all I think that's just unilaterally true with at least people who are driven enough to achieve anything interesting. Like, it's just like it

it's all I think that's just unilaterally true with at least people who are driven enough to achieve anything interesting. Like, it's just like it

01:04:06

I've just settled with it. It's just never enough. And that's okay.

I've just settled with it. It's just never enough. And that's okay.

01:04:09

I've never heard of someone getting to the number.

I've never heard of someone getting to the number.

01:04:12

Like, like, like, actually getting the number because the goal posts always move. So when when I hear people say it, there's a number. Like, when I when I talk to an author and they're like, my goal is to sell a million copies or whatever. I'm I go like,

Like, like, like, actually getting the number because the goal posts always move. So when when I hear people say it, there's a number. Like, when I when I talk to an author and they're like, my goal is to sell a million copies or whatever. I'm I go like,

01:04:25

I don't have goals. Like, why would you why would you even put a ceiling on it? Right? Like, why you should just try

I don't have goals. Like, why would you why would you even put a ceiling on it? Right? Like, why you should just try

01:04:30

to sell as many copies as it's capable of selling. Do you have,

to sell as many copies as it's capable of selling. Do you have,

01:04:35

the other than, like, be a good dad and be a good person and all this stuff, do you have any professional goals for the next five, ten, or twenty years? Where you say, like, this is what I want or any people who you say, I I wanna be I want my career to be similar to this type of person. Yeah. I mean, so, like, I sold this four book series, so to do four, like, four

the other than, like, be a good dad and be a good person and all this stuff, do you have any professional goals for the next five, ten, or twenty years? Where you say, like, this is what I want or any people who you say, I I wanna be I want my career to be similar to this type of person. Yeah. I mean, so, like, I sold this four book series, so to do four, like, four

01:04:54

interlocking

interlocking

01:04:56

interrelated books in ostensibly four years. That that that's the that's what it it could change, but, like, that is like the mountain

interrelated books in ostensibly four years. That that that's the that's what it it could change, but, like, that is like the mountain

01:05:04

that I'm climbing right now because it was unlike the mountains that I'd done I'd done before.

that I'm climbing right now because it was unlike the mountains that I'd done I'd done before.

01:05:10

I don't have like a certain number of books that I'm trying to write or certain number of copies that I'm trying to write, but I

I don't have like a certain number of books that I'm trying to write or certain number of copies that I'm trying to write, but I

01:05:17

I I do

I I do

01:05:20

there's a like, I I've never written one of those biographies that we were talking about. And there's some part of me that

there's a like, I I've never written one of those biographies that we were talking about. And there's some part of me that

01:05:27

thinks about maybe doing that at some point,

thinks about maybe doing that at some point,

01:05:29

and doing it in place.

and doing it in place.

01:05:31

Anyone in particular?

Anyone in particular?

01:05:33

I do have a person, but I don't wanna say because someone might steal it.

I do have a person, but I don't wanna say because someone might steal it.

01:05:37

But but I but I but I but I but I have thought about doing a a big a big book like that. And I there's a part of me that thinks

But but I but I but I but I but I have thought about doing a a big a big book like that. And I there's a part of me that thinks

01:05:44

being able to do it and not not care, like,

being able to do it and not not care, like,

01:05:48

financially, like, if it takes five years or takes ten years, like, there's part of me that thinks about that. And I I so I have a couple ideas like that where I'm like, that would be a cool thing to do.

financially, like, if it takes five years or takes ten years, like, there's part of me that thinks about that. And I I so I have a couple ideas like that where I'm like, that would be a cool thing to do.

01:05:58

But like

But like

01:05:59

I I have the weird sensation. I'm sure you have this too of like

I I have the weird sensation. I'm sure you have this too of like

01:06:04

of like very much feeling like I'm

of like very much feeling like I'm

01:06:07

play I'm playing with house money, and that's both really fun. And then it it's also a little it's like a little un unmoring because you're, like, shit. I thought I was running with everyone else, and then now I'm just, like, by myself. Am I going fast enough? Am I going too fast? You know, did I Dude, Danny don't wanna lose it? It's, like, it that's a weird feeling where you're, like, well, I have what I wanted. I thought that I'd be willing to, like, spend this much to invest on my dear. And then it's, like, but I don't wanna lose this. And that that also exists.

play I'm playing with house money, and that's both really fun. And then it it's also a little it's like a little un unmoring because you're, like, shit. I thought I was running with everyone else, and then now I'm just, like, by myself. Am I going fast enough? Am I going too fast? You know, did I Dude, Danny don't wanna lose it? It's, like, it that's a weird feeling where you're, like, well, I have what I wanted. I thought that I'd be willing to, like, spend this much to invest on my dear. And then it's, like, but I don't wanna lose this. And that that also exists.

01:06:38

Well, you you think that being successful will make you more courageous.

Well, you you think that being successful will make you more courageous.

01:06:42

Because you are more secure, but it actually

Because you are more secure, but it actually

01:06:46

the the the rational response to having a lot is to become more risk averse because you know how hard it was to get it. And so there's a tension there. You know, how do you how do you continue to push yourself

the the the rational response to having a lot is to become more risk averse because you know how hard it was to get it. And so there's a tension there. You know, how do you how do you continue to push yourself

01:06:59

without being reckless

without being reckless

01:07:01

and how do you,

and how do you,

01:07:03

protect what you've built without being complacent?

protect what you've built without being complacent?

01:07:07

Wait. But you you just said something that reminded me of the the fisherman story you started off with, which was you said, like, I wanna write this biography and I hope I'll be at a place where, like, financially, it doesn't matter. Do you you don't feel that you're there already?

Wait. But you you just said something that reminded me of the the fisherman story you started off with, which was you said, like, I wanna write this biography and I hope I'll be at a place where, like, financially, it doesn't matter. Do you you don't feel that you're there already?

01:07:19

No. No. No. I mean, I feel like I'm there. I just have to get through these two books I have or, like, I I'm already creatively committed

No. No. No. I mean, I feel like I'm there. I just have to get through these two books I have or, like, I I'm already creatively committed

01:07:26

to an idea.

to an idea.

01:07:28

It's like, like a director. It's like, hey, I've already attached to these two movies or three movies.

It's like, like a director. It's like, hey, I've already attached to these two movies or three movies.

01:07:33

Then, like,

Then, like,

01:07:34

once once that I play is cleared, and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to put it off into the future. I I don't feel rushed to do it. I'm just saying, like,

once once that I play is cleared, and I'm not trying to I'm not trying to put it off into the future. I I don't feel rushed to do it. I'm just saying, like,

01:07:42

when when I have a clear

when when I have a clear

01:07:45

plate or open road in front of me, I think that's probably something I might fuck around with. Any topics that we didn't cover that you think need to be covered?

plate or open road in front of me, I think that's probably something I might fuck around with. Any topics that we didn't cover that you think need to be covered?

01:07:56

You know what? Actually, yeah. I I mentioned to you in text. You were like, well, can we talk about, like, how much money your books have made? I I I That's not your what I said was I go, much money have you made?

You know what? Actually, yeah. I I mentioned to you in text. You were like, well, can we talk about, like, how much money your books have made? I I I That's not your what I said was I go, much money have you made?

01:08:08

How big's your dick? And what's your social?

How big's your dick? And what's your social?

01:08:11

Yeah.

Yeah.

01:08:12

No. It it's it's funny, like, on my first books,

No. It it's it's funny, like, on my first books,

01:08:16

like, obviously,

like, obviously,

01:08:18

books as a market are less interesting to people than, like, the movie business, but, like,

books as a market are less interesting to people than, like, the movie business, but, like,

01:08:24

whenever I would sell a book, like, the your agent or publisher, they're like, should we announce this deal? Like, there's trades. Right? And sometimes, like, my first book got a ton of publicity because I was, like, a kid who came out of nowhere and sold a book for a bunch of money. I was always I was, like, I wanna press release. Like, I wanna put this out. And then probably starting

whenever I would sell a book, like, the your agent or publisher, they're like, should we announce this deal? Like, there's trades. Right? And sometimes, like, my first book got a ton of publicity because I was, like, a kid who came out of nowhere and sold a book for a bunch of money. I was always I was, like, I wanna press release. Like, I wanna put this out. And then probably starting

01:08:44

I think it was with stillness. It might have been after definitely with this series,

I think it was with stillness. It might have been after definitely with this series,

01:08:48

the I realized that there was no advantage to doing that.

the I realized that there was no advantage to doing that.

01:08:52

That,

That,

01:08:53

when you start talking about

when you start talking about

01:08:56

what something is sold for or how, like, I've two things. I thought Okay. Like, so I saw this four book deal and it was a it was a very large deal, at least for me. And

what something is sold for or how, like, I've two things. I thought Okay. Like, so I saw this four book deal and it was a it was a very large deal, at least for me. And

01:09:05

I had two thoughts. I said one

I had two thoughts. I said one

01:09:08

telling people how much money I made from it, it makes you a target, makes you weird. You know, it it could it could somehow

telling people how much money I made from it, it makes you a target, makes you weird. You know, it it could it could somehow

01:09:15

be seen as selling out or something. But then the other part, I I thought I don't want people this is an idea that's gonna take me four plus years to get to the end of. Why would I want to give people

be seen as selling out or something. But then the other part, I I thought I don't want people this is an idea that's gonna take me four plus years to get to the end of. Why would I want to give people

01:09:28

who might be writing in the same niche, like a heads up about what I'm doing? And so I don't think I've announced, you know, when I did a podcast deal, when I've sold other projects,

who might be writing in the same niche, like a heads up about what I'm doing? And so I don't think I've announced, you know, when I did a podcast deal, when I've sold other projects,

01:09:38

like,

like,

01:09:39

I I see no benefit to

I I see no benefit to

01:09:42

putting out specific figures, I only see,

putting out specific figures, I only see,

01:09:46

downsides to that. I don't know. Who'd you do a podcast deal with? No. I I I do agree with that. At first, you know, it's like that song,

downsides to that. I don't know. Who'd you do a podcast deal with? No. I I I do agree with that. At first, you know, it's like that song,

01:09:54

if damn it feels good to be a gangsters, they they said real gang real gangsters don't flex nuts. Because they know they got them.

if damn it feels good to be a gangsters, they they said real gang real gangsters don't flex nuts. Because they know they got them.

01:10:01

Yeah. And and that's how you you make the police come after you. Right? Like Yeah.

Yeah. And and that's how you you make the police come after you. Right? Like Yeah.

01:10:05

But I used to feel that way where I'm like, Yeah. Like, when I I mean, I'm still insecure, but when I was even more insecure, I would be like, yeah. I need to I'm gonna rub this into my high school friend's face.

But I used to feel that way where I'm like, Yeah. Like, when I I mean, I'm still insecure, but when I was even more insecure, I would be like, yeah. I need to I'm gonna rub this into my high school friend's face.

01:10:15

Yeah. I And then now I'm like, I don't wanna get sued. I don't want to be a target. I don't want people to pretend because we I get all these fake people on Twitter or Instagram pretending to be me or, like, people, like, threaten to sue you when, and when you're not wrong at all. Like, now I'm, like, I don't want any of that nonsense.

Yeah. I And then now I'm like, I don't wanna get sued. I don't want to be a target. I don't want people to pretend because we I get all these fake people on Twitter or Instagram pretending to be me or, like, people, like, threaten to sue you when, and when you're not wrong at all. Like, now I'm, like, I don't want any of that nonsense.

01:10:32

Yeah. I did a I did a podcast deal with, with Amazon Wandery,

Yeah. I did a I did a podcast deal with, with Amazon Wandery,

01:10:35

like, maybe three months ago.

like, maybe three months ago.

01:10:38

How big is the pod now? Or do you measure it in podcast downloads or YouTube view?

How big is the pod now? Or do you measure it in podcast downloads or YouTube view?

01:10:43

YouTube is isn't wasn't included in the deal, so it's separate.

YouTube is isn't wasn't included in the deal, so it's separate.

01:10:47

But,

But,

01:10:48

podcast is is fantastic. I think we we crossed a hundred million downloads.

podcast is is fantastic. I think we we crossed a hundred million downloads.

01:10:53

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

01:10:54

Yeah. Do

Yeah. Do

01:10:56

should do what we're getting close to being able to do that annually. Like, not quite, but, like, the to me, that's that's where the numbers are at. We're at,

should do what we're getting close to being able to do that annually. Like, not quite, but, like, the to me, that's that's where the numbers are at. We're at,

01:11:05

Our monthly downloads on the podcast are range between one point five and two or one point three and two million. And then the pod the and then the YouTube episode views are another one or two million. So we're in the range of two to five on any given month. And, our next target, I'm like, how do we get to that five to ten?

Our monthly downloads on the podcast are range between one point five and two or one point three and two million. And then the pod the and then the YouTube episode views are another one or two million. So we're in the range of two to five on any given month. And, our next target, I'm like, how do we get to that five to ten?

01:11:24

Sounds like you're there. Dude, I think I think YouTube is the I it's weird to say, like, YouTube is the big thing because it's been around for fifteen years, and it's already huge. But, like,

Sounds like you're there. Dude, I think I think YouTube is the I it's weird to say, like, YouTube is the big thing because it's been around for fifteen years, and it's already huge. But, like,

01:11:33

the growth I'm seeing on YouTube stuff, especially now, it was shorts. It's crazy.

the growth I'm seeing on YouTube stuff, especially now, it was shorts. It's crazy.

01:11:38

Dude people are age and older. They're like, what? YouTube. I'm like, no, dog. YouTube's TV. Like, it, like, you know, YouTube is where it's at, and it still has so much room. You because I only watch YouTube as my TV.

Dude people are age and older. They're like, what? YouTube. I'm like, no, dog. YouTube's TV. Like, it, like, you know, YouTube is where it's at, and it still has so much room. You because I only watch YouTube as my TV.

01:11:50

It it's the best. Well, dude, you're awesome, man. I, I asked you, like, who, you admire and who you wanna steal from. And I have, like, a short list of maybe three or five people, and you are on that list, where I just think, like, where, like, you know, I'm a family guy like you. I don't have kids But, like, I see you raise your family. I see you with your wife. I see, like, you know, I also bought a, a kind of like a farm inspired by you. I live in Austin most of the year. Like, There's so many things that you've done where I think this guy's nailing it, and I wanna steal little bits and pieces of how he's doing and how he's living life. And I admire your confidence.

It it's the best. Well, dude, you're awesome, man. I, I asked you, like, who, you admire and who you wanna steal from. And I have, like, a short list of maybe three or five people, and you are on that list, where I just think, like, where, like, you know, I'm a family guy like you. I don't have kids But, like, I see you raise your family. I see you with your wife. I see, like, you know, I also bought a, a kind of like a farm inspired by you. I live in Austin most of the year. Like, There's so many things that you've done where I think this guy's nailing it, and I wanna steal little bits and pieces of how he's doing and how he's living life. And I admire your confidence.

01:12:24

Your drive. I mean,

Your drive. I mean,

01:12:26

I'm on I'm on the the Ryan holiday train. I've been on it since,

I'm on I'm on the the Ryan holiday train. I've been on it since,

01:12:30

since, the first book. So

since, the first book. So

01:12:32

media media confessions. We gotta hang we gotta hang out when you're back. Man, you you and I are almost a little bit similar when we have our toes in, like, the New York world and in the LA world, but, you know, I lived in Tennessee for a long time. Live in Texas just like you. I like doing I like the boozy shit and I like the redneck shit, man. I like it all. So, I'll I'll haunt you when I get back. And, I appreciate you coming on, man. This is awesome. Wanna see the farm.

media media confessions. We gotta hang we gotta hang out when you're back. Man, you you and I are almost a little bit similar when we have our toes in, like, the New York world and in the LA world, but, you know, I lived in Tennessee for a long time. Live in Texas just like you. I like doing I like the boozy shit and I like the redneck shit, man. I like it all. So, I'll I'll haunt you when I get back. And, I appreciate you coming on, man. This is awesome. Wanna see the farm.

01:12:55

And, say the book name again.

And, say the book name again.

01:12:57

Oh, discipline is destiny, the power of self control. As part of the stoic virtue series. The first one is, courage is calling. Where do you make the most money where people buy it? Oh, if you buy it from from daily stoic dot com or my bookstore, the painted porch. Awesome. I appreciate you, man. This is awesome. Thank you. Good. Thanks.

Oh, discipline is destiny, the power of self control. As part of the stoic virtue series. The first one is, courage is calling. Where do you make the most money where people buy it? Oh, if you buy it from from daily stoic dot com or my bookstore, the painted porch. Awesome. I appreciate you, man. This is awesome. Thank you. Good. Thanks.

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