00:00
He goes. Seven of the eight richest people in the world right now on or in America right now are fierce nerds. Right? So you have like Zuckerberg,
00:07
Bill Gates, Elon Musk. Like, you have these, like, these steps, Jeff Bezos, these types of folks. But also he says intelligence is, you know, part of the thing, but fierce nerds are not They're not winners because they're the smartest of the nerds. In fact, they're usually only moderately intelligent,
00:21
compared to other nerds, but they are way more competitive and impatient than than the average nerd. And this is the difference between basically, like, who becomes a professor and who becomes, like, a founder or a great investor or something like
00:35
Alright.
00:36
In
00:37
this
00:38
episode,
00:40
we're
00:41
talking
00:42
about Sam's fight with a bunch of nannies. Yeah. It's that's a crazy story. That's in the beginning. Sean just had lunch with a billionaire. I had dinner with him that that'd be actually a few days before super fascinating guy. This this we we're actually gonna share a couple stories that very few people get to see. I think that's the most interesting part. We also do, a couple ideas. We got a, Apple esque,
01:04
Apple esque business for bathrooms
01:06
and a business around the idea of an IQ test. That's a little side hustle we got for you. So this got everything. We got frameworks. We got stories. We got ideas. We got it all.
01:17
Have you ever seen this meme of, like, a black guy with a red shirt, like, clasping hands with a white guy with a blue shirt, and it's like, we're in this together type of vibe. It's like a firm the firm handshake meme? Yeah. It's like us versus the world, race class. It doesn't matter. I just had a real life incident, like, that happened to me. So I was out. I'm I'm in Brooklyn right now. I was out in this park in front of my house, like, doing push ups and sit ups and just, like, walking my dog, just hanging out. And I see this guy. I I see, like, these four nannies, like, all sick of data out of, like, an area where they're sitting. And then I see this, like, dude who's clearly harassing them, like, coming after them.
01:53
And
01:54
I run over there, and I'm like, hey. What's going on? And they're like, this guy just like spit on us. He's acting crazy, he's bothering us. And so I give him my dog's leash,
02:02
because I had my dog with me and I go, hey, hold my dog for me. And we I walked over and I started talking to the guy to get him to go away. And then, like, it's like, oh, this is clearly gonna become a fist fight. And then,
02:13
like, five other guys who are all around the street. These guys just, like, basically sit on the block all day. I don't know what they do, but Like, one dude was, like, a Dominican dude. Another guy was a black guy. We are all and I'm sitting there shirtless and bright green running shorts with a fanny pack on. With AirPods still in my ear. And we just, like, corral these women. These fours, like, a Jamaican daddy. It was, like, a an Asian daddy, an older white woman. It looks And it, like, we were all just, like, corralling these guy or the the these these nannies in this, like, circle. And we're just standing there, like, A elephant garden gets heard. You know what I'm saying? And it was like the
02:48
it was like the real life meme of us coming together. And at the end, the crazy person, he walked away, and we just look at each other like, John Well, Don, you know, just like, who cares about our backgrounds? Who cares what we look like? We just We're we're champions of the nannies,
03:03
and I just got hyped over that.
03:07
First of all, the fanny and the nannies, that's an amazing combo. Don't don't mess with that. Secondly,
03:14
what was that analogy like an elephant guarding, it's hurt.
03:18
I don't know. I watch natural geographic. And when the lions come, like, the whole community of fence, like, getting a circle and they put, like, the babies in the middle, and they're just saying, like, you know, bringing on dog. They're just ready to fight, and that's how it felt like. We were just these You're, like,
03:32
You know, they call people like Renaissance man? Like, you're not a Renaissance man, but you do have this strange set of influences that you watch and you consume and you play with to, like, We need, like, another word. You're, like, a red, red, next son's speech or something like that. Like, yeah. I don't know what these things are. You're, like, you know, like, when you're when you're swashbuckling
03:49
the thing. It's like, no. I don't know that. Like, why did you know that? Like, you know, I, like, I'm watching cops, but on commercial break, I'm reading nurse Hemaway. You know what I'm saying? Like, you can't stop me. You can't stop me.
04:02
You know what I'm saying? How many episodes of cops have you watched? All of them, Jacksonville, Florida favorite part.
04:08
How do you think I do so much about Florida?
04:11
What episode have I not watched?
04:15
Cops, I think, was the first reality TV, and that should start in the eighties.
04:20
I love cops.
04:22
This happened this morning for you? Yeah. Like an hour and a half ago.
04:26
Isn't it amazing when you when something amazing happens in the morning? The rest of your day, you got a totally different pep in your step
04:34
Like, I remember once I went skydiving, and I did it in the morning. And skydiving was okay. It was it was cool, whatever. It's over in, like, five minutes. Right? Like, it's, like, a lot of build up that it's over in five minutes. Like, you know, it's like your first time doing it. It's like, you know, a lot of build up, and then it's just over. And the one thing I remember was cool. It was three thirty in the morning. And then I, like,
04:55
Yeah. Exactly. I had to go on for the rest of my day.
04:59
Well, I also made the same joke. I said your first time doing it, and you said the same joke. So that's was like, okay. Oh, shit. But we could do it again. We can do it two times.
05:08
Well, that's like when you when you when you make a joke the second time and someone's already said that one. Like, oh, why? I thought I thought no one heard me. I thought maybe you didn't hear it. Yeah. The
05:21
But the rest of your day is, like,
05:23
you feel like a champion who could do all things. That's how I felt the day after I skied the morning after I skydived. And I feel like you're you're in that mood now. Right? You fought off the crazy guy, the crazy spitting guy with a bunch of nannies. You saved a bunch of nannies and by proxy their babies.
05:38
And so
05:40
don't know. You could kinda do anything. I could just tell you, hey, Sam, you know,
05:43
recite the, you know, tell me the next five companies that are gonna become trillion dollar companies, and you could just me. Can I ask you any question right now? You could answer.
05:51
Look, I I created the UN of fighting off, you know, bad guys. It was just a bunch of us all look at different different backgrounds. It was like it was like the beginning of a nineties sitcom. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, the blue collar guy, the doctor, you know, we all came together. Yeah. It was it was Right.
06:07
It was, like, a cross between, you know, golden girls and, like, power rangers.
06:16
Can we talk about Dharmesh? Because I have a a lot of interesting things to talk about because I got to hang out with him. Can you talk about what what you all did?
06:23
Yeah. I think we both basically hung out with Darmash. The Darmash is the founder of HubSpot. HubSpot is the company that bought your company. He's a Billionaire HubSpot is a he's been there for, I don't even know how many or fifteen plus years down The beginning. So Kind of Epic founder built a I don't know, twenty billion dollar company or something like that. And,
06:43
awesome guy. Really fun guy to hang out with. He listens to the pod, so he's kinda, like, like mine did and kinda knows our personalities, but we had never hung out in person neither had you. So I think you hung out with him at the conference. And then, like, a few days later, I grabbed lunch with him because he flew to San Francisco.
06:58
Give me your kind of initial take. Give me what what you liked. Give me maybe something that you didn't expect, and I'll do the same. So he's lovely. Like, he's a sweetheart of a person. He's easy to talk to. Like, he's incredibly,
07:12
like, if he seems emotionally, like, well balanced and, like, knows what he what he is and what he isn't. So a lovely hang. And then the second thing, and I mean this with love, and I mean this as a compliment
07:25
He is so odd. He has done so many unique things in his life that he, like, you you wouldn't even know. Like, he's odd in that he's, like, quirky but he's also,
07:36
incredibly eclectic. So he's done so many interesting things. And when he tells you the stories about his interesting things, do you realize
07:42
Oh, you're like a lovely guy to be around and you have my back and we're friends, but you are a you're kind of a shark. You will you'll you win. You win at everything you do when you spot opportunities. For example, he just casually throws out these things, and he's done this to me like eight times. So I found out that when he was in twenties. He was like, you know, I almost didn't even and this reminds me of you. He goes, I almost didn't even wanna start tech companies because I've I, was gonna become a professional poker player. I was like, what? He goes, Yeah. Basically, like me and my brother,
08:11
we, we, we're up, like, you know, mid to high six figures over our career, our short career of Black Jack because we learned how to play Black Jack, and we learned how to do well. And, also, we speak a language that isn't very common. I actually don't know what language is it is, but language where in India, they don't even speak it that that much. And he's like, we could talk at, like, the tables and, like, discuss strategy that no one would even know. And, we just would win. We,
08:34
I'm up, and I know how to do it the right way. And I almost became a professional poker player. And so he, like, has, like, all these little weird things that hotel stories out. And I'm like, oh, you're you're a killer. And you're also so unique.
08:47
Yeah. Have you ever read that Polygram blog post called fierce nerds?
08:51
No. What is it? I mean,
08:53
years ago, ten years ago. It's old. Right?
08:58
No. Not that old. Maybe, like,
09:00
let's see. When did he publish this? The publish this twenty twenty one. Oh, no. Didn't know what happened. So it's an amazing post. I'm gonna read you a couple pieces of it, but it is It's one of those, like, Paul Graham, I think, has got somebody said this earlier, they go,
09:14
what's that guy, Andrew Tate? They sent out some tweet that was really funny was Paul Graham was my Andrew Tate like, growing up, which is, like,
09:22
so funny. It's such a funny. It's such a deep cut joke, but if you get it, you're like, it just hits the spot.
09:27
So, alright. So he wrote this post and he goes, most people think of nerds as quiet, you know, sort of like diffident people. Right? Just sort of like, you know, passive.
09:36
And in in in most social situations, they are. They're the quiet and, you know, they're not the star quarterback in the middle of the gym. Right? They're,
09:44
They're kind of a fish out of water and a bunch of different things. He goes,
09:48
but this is an illusion because when on that only happens when non nerds observe them. Because they're observing them in non nerdy situations.
09:55
So you see a nerd at prom, you just see them as a quiet sort of passive nerd. There's no alpha in them. And he goes, but in fact, some nerds are quite fierce.
10:06
Fierce nerds are a small but interesting group. They're extremely competitive. More competitive, I would say, than competitive non nerds because the competition is more personal to them. Partly because they're not emotionally mature,
10:19
and they they distance themselves from it. But also because there's less randomness in the types of competition that they engage in. Therefore,
10:26
they're justified in making it more personal. So this is like fierce nerds who get really into chess or a game that is less luck based, more skill
10:34
based. This often happens with gaming or programming competitions or math competitions or spelling bees or that's way less about luck and way more about skill. Dharmesh told me a story. He was like, when I was in grade school or high school, I, like, I got in trouble because I just, like, didn't go to school or, like, something like that. And I was like, why? He goes, well? I had never seen a ping pong table, and they had one of those in the dorm. And I right when I saw it, I decided I'm gonna be the best at this. And so I dedicated my high school years to being the best ping pong player.
11:02
But sorry. Go ahead. Really? Yes. That's amazing.
11:07
I love how you get these gems out of people. Like, what question do you ask that gets that answer?
11:12
I,
11:13
like, I'll just say it. Like, like, wow. You're, like, really unique. Like, how are you so why are you so different? No. No. How did you really say? Wow. You're so freaking weird, man. Yeah. I would say, dude, man, stuff your whole life. I was like, you're a weirdo. I'm like, I I'm kind of a weirdo. I'll say, like, I'm kind of a weirdo too, but you're like a extreme weird. Like, what were you like in high school?
11:32
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's the same far question. I I needed to get that out of you. That those are great. Because I'll be honest with you. I had lunch with him and super nice guy. By the way, keep keep reading your article.
11:43
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. So he got so he goes on to talk about it. He's like, Here's some other things about about fierce nerds. One, they're independent minded. They're willing to basically stand on what they believe even though it is socially awkward.
11:56
You know, in school, this becomes kind of a liability for them. But as soon as they graduate, they go into kind of like professional world, it becomes an extreme asset for them.
12:05
They're also impatient. They're annoyed by rules rather than being just like, you know, unaware of them or passively following them. And he goes, I'm not he goes, I'm not I'm not sure why fears nerds are impatient, but they most of them seem to be. You'll notice it first in conversation. They tend to interrupt you. At first, it's merely annoying, but it's, but the more promising fierce nerds, it's connected to a deeper impatience about solving the problem.
12:28
They have this competitiveness and impatience. Right? So those are two of the, like, characteristics.
12:33
And,
12:34
he goes, when you combine these qualities, in sufficient quantity, the result is quite formidable.
12:40
And, then he gives some examples. Then he gets That's a beautiful sense, by the way. More part. If you combine these in sufficient Some
12:46
Yeah. That's a really good sense. Yeah.
12:49
I hear you guys. Seven of the eight richest people in the world right now on air in America right now are fierce nerds. Right? So you have like Zuckerberg.
12:56
Bill Gates, Elon Musk. Like, you have these, like, these steps, Jeff Bezos, these types of folks.
13:02
He goes, the bad news, he goes, He goes, indeed. Hey, basically, but also he says intelligence is, you know, part of the thing, but fierce nerds are not they're not winners because they're the smartest of the nerds. In fact, they're usually only moderately intelligent,
13:16
compared to other nerds, but they are way more competitive and impatient than than the average nerd. And this is the difference between basically, like, who becomes a professor and who becomes, like, a founder or a great investor or something like this.
13:28
And so,
13:29
he goes, he goes,
13:32
the idea of a first nerd is not a common one. So a lot of you might be reading this and might realize
13:37
That's me. And he goes, and now, and I love this writing. He goes, and it is to you, young fierce nerd that I now turn. And he goes, and he starts talking directly to the fierce nerd. He goes, because I got good good news and bad news. The good news is your fearlessness is gonna help you solve difficult problems. It's, you know, scientific technical problems, blah, blah, blah. You can get rich in business.
13:55
In greed, it is great for, you know, survival to be a fierce dirt. He goes, the bad news is that if not exercise, your fearlessness will turn into bitterness. And you'll become an intellectual playground bully, a grumpy cis admin, the forum troll, the hater, and the shooter down of new ideas.
14:10
He goes, how do you avoid this fate? And by the way, he created hacker news. So I think he runs into a lot of fierce nerds, on hacker news. He goes, how do you avoid this fate? Work on ambitious projects? Because if you succeed, it brings you the kind of satisfaction that will neutralize your bitterness.
14:24
You don't have to succeed to feel this. Immediately working on hard projects give gives most fierce nerds a
14:30
sense satisfaction.
14:32
And it and it and even if you don't succeed, it'll keep you busy so you're not so bitter.
14:37
I thought this is an amazing blog post. Like one of his You you you Best, I sent literally, I read this. I sent it to eminent Twitch. I was like, hey, it's you. Like, this is you. This is what I would describe you as, like, a fierce nerd he went through Y Combinator. So, you know, he's, like, you know, the architect for it. So you just pulled this up by the way without having any preparation, and you did a really good job by the way of, like, reading that. I was, like, enthralled.
14:59
But, dude, Paul Graham. Very hard, by the way, because I read this a year ago.
15:03
And I'm, like, skimming it trying to cut the boring parts and also remember what the hell was this article about That was actually quite difficult. I know. You did a really good job. I was like, tell me more. Tell me more.
15:14
Paul Graham's a great writer. I love I'm gonna go back and reread that. Okay. I interrupted you to I interrupted the interruption. So you met with Dharmesh, and you said, to be honest, he was a nice guy. I forget what you said.
15:26
So so he's a fierce nerd. That's the first thing. And I think you pulled out some good stories, the ping pong story, the poker story. This is classic
15:33
fierce nerd hallmarks. Right? All green flags, going going towards that. The second part was super nice guy and our lunch was totally fine, but
15:42
There is a certain,
15:45
it's he's this type of person. I actually there's a bunch of people like this. I might be like this where you're almost better to talk to online. It's like you've spent more time talking to people online that your online social skill
15:56
is better than your in person social skill. I felt this myself because right, I left the house for the first time in many, you know, many days to go do a social hangout. Like, you know, he even texted and he was like, you know, understand. By the way, if you don't wanna come, I'm like you. I don't like to leave the house and, you know, I'm protective of my time. And I was like, no. No. No. I wanna do this. I'll I'll drive an hour. Let's do this.
16:16
I felt rusty, and I could feel almost that he was a little rusty or, like, but differently, not rusty necessarily, but the his
16:23
main
16:23
comfort zone, right, his pocket, his cockpit as a pilot
16:27
is sitting at his desk in front of a computer. And I know a bunch of people like this. I have a this guy used to work with Jake. If you met him, he's quiet as a mouse. In Slack, he's like the class clown.
16:39
And I was like, what it who is this guy? That's you, dude. You're, like, the most soft spoken, like, you know, that foot pedal on a piano that makes all the keys, like, muted. He's like that for real life. Like, somebody needs to, like, take the foot off the foot pedal for him. And but then you get him in slack, and the guy's like, you know, the number one troll willing to cut the edgy jokes. And I was, like, I can't believe this is the same guy. And it's, like, he was twenty one years old. And he basically grew up in Malaysia. His only, like, English social interactions were online in, like, in chat rooms, games, Discord, that sort of thing. And so, you know, that's just his persona. And then I've met so many people that are like this that I've now come to realize it's not something weird about them. It's actually a completely normal thing, and it's better to just figure out What's your where are you the most you?
17:24
Is it through text messaging? Is it on phone calls? Is it through written emails?
17:29
Is it in person? Is it, like, long form in person? What is the version of you that's the most you? Well, like, what would you say it is for you?
17:37
Writing, like, long form writing.
17:39
I think that's what I prefer. Like, these podcasts, like, I usually have to lay down for, like, thirty minutes because I'm, like, I'm, like, dead after after them. So, no, I mean, I'm okay at this, but, like, writing, I prefer. But listen to this. So I think Darmesh actually grieve you.
17:54
To get the blood blacked to your brain.
17:56
Yeah. I'm so tired. I passed out what happened. Darmash,
18:01
I would probably agree with you, I I would imagine. And so listen to this. So
18:06
they they asked you and me to, like, show up basically, I was supposed to speak at this event, and they were like, hey, one of the main people had to cancel because something happened, can you show up, like, in twelve hours the next morning and come and speak in front of ten thousand people. And I was like, I mean, I guess I could just, like, show up and riff in front of ten thousand people, but I I don't prefer that. Does Dharmesh wanna, like, do a thing? And they're like, no. He hates public speaking. I'm like, just let me ask him. He'll do it. So he ended up do doing it. But backstage, I asked him about that. And he was like, yeah. I I don't I hate public speaking. I'm not good at it. And I go, well, you just did a keynote earlier today. Why'd you do that? And he goes, I'll tell you why. Basically,
18:42
for the six months or five months or whatever it was leading up to this event, I had this process where I read a bunch of comedy books, and I realized that the last per minute was the most important thing for a talk. And so what I did was I got first. I made a presentation.
19:00
I got a and I created a Zoom call and I got ten HubSpot employees to do it. And I recorded the whole thing, then I got twenty to come, and then fifty to come, and then a hundred to come. And what I did was I adapted each time, and I built this Python. I built this Python script that analyzed the audio of the call to figure out what my laugh per minute was. And then each time I adapted it to get more laugh per minute. So for example, and he knew the exact numbers. He goes, I had ninety six slides on this presentation, and I had to click next a hundred and twenty times And I know on which laugh and on which word to hit next because I practice it so much because I'm optimizing
19:37
for lap. My he he have kind of the the LPM.
19:41
Wow.
19:42
And,
19:42
and what the hell? This is amazing.
19:45
It's amazing for these types of stories. It's amazing. And he, like, He and I went back and watched his talk, and he goes, in fact
19:53
so here's, like, another, like, side tangent. Have have you ever been to a big conference Have you noticed whether it's Ted Talk or even Steve Jobs, all the big conferences that have more than a thousand people, they all use the same slide clicker. Have you ever seen that clicker? It only has two buttons, a red, which means Yep. Back and a right and a and a green, which means next. So here's the secret. That clicker,
20:13
it doesn't actually change the slide. It goes to a light, like a light that says red or green, and there's someone on the other end of the slide hitting left or right. Did you know that?
20:24
No.
20:25
Why? So that's like a so it's so stupid. I because they do it because, like, the the presenters
20:30
or the organizers will be like, well, in case you could screw up someone's here, and and we'll do a better job. But it's not automated. Like, it the this is how it's it works at all big conferences. So it it's like this clicker or whatever. We have to do a talk on it actually. They have They've completely monopolized it. So every single big conference has this. And and I told him that he goes, dude, trust me. I know. I've gotten in fights these people for eight years because I built a device in a program to make it so that clicker could actually work directly with the computer because in order to optimize my LPM,
21:00
I need the click to happen faster that a human being can see the light and click next because I've that's how I've set it up. And every once in a while, there'll be light delay, which decreases my LPM.
21:10
And so
21:12
this is how this guy looks at everything.
21:15
And he told me that. He thinks about his LPM, like, you think about your t levels. Yeah. He just, like, spends
21:21
months
21:25
optimizing his LPM.
21:26
And this is this, like, when I hear stories like this, I think, a, you're unstoppable.
21:30
Like, the there this is why you're successful. And, b, I love you. Like, I I I just you're my hero.
21:37
And, everything you're about, I'm into now. And I just I love it, man. I love when these people are so stream about shit. It's awesome.
21:47
That's amazing.
21:48
That is amazing. What an amazing story. You've made my day.
21:52
That that is really incredible.
21:54
I I can't even,
21:56
yeah, I can't even kinda wrap my head around the level of nerdery it takes
22:01
to go that deep on something. Like, you know,
22:04
I feel like I live my life in this, like, eighty, twenty way where, like,
22:08
Good enough is as good as it gets. And, like, I just kind of good enough is as good as it gets for, like, almost everything in my life. Very rarely do I try to, like, take something to that, like,
22:19
nth degree that in that Olympic level of obsession?
22:23
And part of me is very jealous of people who do that. Like, we another fierce nerd we had was this guy Quinn who used to work at, at our company.
22:31
And Quinn, same thing. Most soft spoken guy. You might have met him. He had the big crazy Yeah. I know.
22:38
Most soft spoken guy gentle, like, if there was a fly that landed on his wrist, he'd be like, it's your wrist now fly. Right? Like, he just didn't wanna harm a bug. Never said a bad word about anybody.
22:49
And,
22:52
he was, like, a fierce nerd. Like, we we started playing, like, these little word games in the office. And I was, like, oh, Quinn, you should play, like, this, like, you know, like, imagine, like, riddle, but, like, ten years ago. And he's, like,
23:03
I could see him, like, getting, like, visibly stressed about it. And I was, like, whoa, like, no problem, man. What's wrong? Like, you, you don't wanna play? He goes, no. But if I play, then I'm just gonna super obsessed with it. Like, I'm just gonna take it too far. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, he's like, yeah. I just have to be careful with games like this. I just get, like, really into I just have to win.
23:23
And I was like, you? Like, what do you mean? Like, you were this ruthless competitor? Get get out of here. And he goes, did I ever show you,
23:30
the girlfriend thing? And I was like, the girlfriend thing? And he goes, you know that game? That's like that word scramble game. Like, basically, it's a bunch of letter. Nine letters on a grid. You're trying to, like, create as many words as you can. Just like, dragging your finger across the line. He's like, yeah. My girlfriend beat me in that game once.
23:45
And then I went to Google's
23:48
headquarters,
23:49
and I programmed the artificial robot arm to just make as many swipes as possible in, like, every like, per second
23:57
And, like, I just crushed her and I'd be like, I'm the world record holder now of this game. Like, it's it's basically creating, like, program the robotic arm He added a little, like, nerf gun tip to it. So it'd be soft, like, it could just scrape against the screen. And then he just programmed it to move in every direction, the optimal path to, like, create as many words as it can in, like, you know, a minute. And it's, like, his time is, like, unbelievably higher than everybody else, and his girlfriend's, like, well, not fun anymore. Like, I don't understand what's hap like, what happened here? And he's like,
24:26
I happened.
24:29
Dude, let me tell you one more last
24:32
Darmash story. So
24:34
he owns
24:35
like,
24:36
and he has an eight figure domain portfolio.
24:39
So, like, random things. Like, he owns cambridge dot com, which he, like, just lets the government use.
24:46
You know, how I, I have this copywriting thing. I I was using try copy that. And he goes, hey, for your birthday, I bought you copy that dot com. And I was like, what? That's, like, how the tens of that. Try not being a bitch.
25:04
He punched me in the stomach and walked away.
25:07
Just a stomach, but I gave you the credentials.
25:11
Thanks, dad.
25:15
Dude, that's hilarious. So he owns all these domain names. And I was like, what okay. Well, you have this wordle thing and you have all these domains. Any projects that interest you? He goes, I've been thinking really a lot about creating a Venn diagram community. I was like, what? What are you crazy? He goes, well, I own venn diagram dot com, and I love communities. And I'm into math, and I think there's a lot of other people who are also obsessed with Venn diagrams. I think I'm gonna build a really cool community for Venn diagrams.
25:40
And,
25:41
I don't know if they're gonna follow through there.
25:44
A tattoo on their arm of just a van. There's a bunch of vendors. Yeah. We're all just vendors. Just get in the room.
25:50
Ivan overlaps everywhere.
25:54
I don't know, like, what it's like there's a circle. There's a circle. You see how this circle? I have what are they gonna do? Just talk about it all the time. I mean, I I I don't understand, like, what the Like, you know, this circle's bigger. This one's smaller. I I don't know. If anyone's gonna vent, man, you can't you can't help it. But that's what he's gonna build. It's a Venn diagram community because he owns Venn diagram dot com. Can I can I tell you five random domains that I own? Actually, I'm gonna tell you six random domains that I own. I want you I'm gonna say let's play a little game. I'm gonna say a domain.
26:22
And you're gonna just pitch me a business off off the domain off top of your head. Alright?
26:28
Okay.
26:30
Alright. You froze. Alright. There you go.
26:32
Okay. Number one,
26:34
excel monkeys dot com, a domain I own, excel monkeys dot com. What does it do? Alright. Excelled monkeys dot com. It's where you buy
26:42
smart chimpanzees.
26:46
That's your best idea with Excel monkeys. You buy smart monkeys.
26:52
Yeah. Because they excel. Monkeys so smart. They could use Excel.
26:57
Yeah.
26:58
Excel monkeys. It would be,
27:00
that would be the name of a tax service.
27:04
Yeah. It could be a tax service. It could also be like selling amazing Excel templates for stuff. It's like, oh, you need, like, a cash flow statement? Here's a great one. You need, like, P and L? Here's a great Excel model for it. Did you buy Excel monkeys? Because that's what I used to call people.
27:19
No. Did you do that? Yeah. Whenever I meet these finance nerds, in reality, I was always jealous of them because they were making more money than me, like my friends I'd be like, dude, you're just an Excel monkey man. Like, they're just all you do is play on Excel. You don't do anything. You don't create real value. Like me, like, you know, I'd write a newsletter
27:36
Dude, I I have so many phrases like that. Like,
27:39
Bakers who are always making PowerPoint. I'm like, oh, freaking slide jockey over here. I don't even know what it I don't even know why, but I'm I want it to be derogatory or, like, the best one of all of them is the finance department that, like, watches the budget. You, like, get your expenses. It's like, Yeah. I gotta go talk to the bean counters. I, like, heard something some guy say this. He was, like, in the sixties. And I think it's a common phrase, but I was, like, Oh, that was like a racial slur as far as I was concerned. I was like, wow. Calling someone a beam counter, that sounds I like that. You were allowed to say that in the off this. That's incredible. I'm gonna use that. When I was, you know, younger and I was jealous of all these bankers, they'd be like, oh, you know, I work in banking. I'm like, oh, no shit. Which branch?
28:18
You know, like, I go to one in Columbia. Is that where you are? Have you ever been robbed
28:25
as be coming with the ski mask music.
28:30
Okay. Excel monkeys. That's a
28:34
that's a it's a website for tax experts. What's the next one? Alright. Next one.
28:40
Skillbad dot com. I own skillbad dot com. Skilledbad.
28:44
I don't know. It sounded good. It's too easy to spell, easy to say words, put together skillbad dot com.
28:51
Like, you're bad at something?
28:52
I don't know. Was it on earth? But it's ironic.
28:55
What what would you
28:57
what? Like, what would that be?
28:59
What were you thinking? It's like Skillshare, bro. It's so easy. That's he's got a layup right there. It's like Skillshare.
29:04
It's, you're bad at a skill?
29:06
Come skill bad. We help you go from being bad at something to being good at something.
29:12
That's stupid. That is really stupid.
29:17
I can't find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot? HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its day across every application. Every team can stay aligned. No out of sync spreadsheets or dueling databases.
29:30
HubSpot, grow better.
29:34
I got,
29:35
it's tummy time dot com. It's tummy time, baby. It's tummy chicken. What's what is it? What are we doing at tummy time?
29:42
Just,
29:45
what do you do on tummy time? Is that when the what's the baby do? Just sit there and watch TV?
29:50
What's tummy time? I don't even know. Oh, dude. I know. They just lay their tummy in it. It helps them, like, you know, like, develop their core strength at their next strength to, like, look up so they don't just be faced down. But they don't necessarily watch TV, but that's what you could do there. Obviously, you're gonna be selling baby aerobics classes.
30:08
I don't know. For sure you'd go for, like, a six minute abs thing. It's tummy time, baby. And it's all I don't even know what that is.
30:15
You know, I'm not I don't I'm not there yet.
30:17
And what are the last two? We're gonna have to work on your improv skills. You've been working on comedy, but it not improv. I feel like, I feel like the on the spot throw something at you. I'm gonna practice I'm gonna keep doing this segment until you're done. I'm I'm still at the yes and part of the the book.
30:33
What's the one thing everyone knows about improv? It's just yes, man. There's like the number one tell that you've never done improv is that you've you you know, an improv.
30:41
You know, an improv. We have this thing called yes, and.
30:44
It means, don't disagree with me in this meeting. Instead,
30:47
say yes and then make my idea b better because it's bad right now. Have you ever gone out to dinner with a bunch of improv people?
30:55
Dude, I did improv for, like, you know, eight weeks of my life. Dude, I've got out to dinner. Dude, what time I wanna say? Nothing more obnoxious than a bunch of in progress. It'd rather be with the vendors.
31:04
Yes. I'd rather be with the Venn diagram dork instead of a bunch of improvers.
31:08
Yuck. They go they it goes like, In in in in, like, places I don't wanna be, number two, on top of that list is improvise. Number one is people who are part of acapella groups.
31:18
Oh my god. I was gonna say the same thing. I could spell that, or they're just like, hey.
31:26
It's like,
31:28
oh, god. Here we go. You know, shabuya.
31:33
Don't sing to me in the on the McDonald's live that you wanna number one, bro. Just tell me a big back with the with no audience.
31:40
Right. It makes any situation worse.
31:43
Singing.
31:44
I cannot stand the acapella people. I didn't realize that was a thing where I grew up in Missouri. If you were part of the acapella, people would of you. But then I started meeting people on the East Coast. Like, these people would go to Harvard and cornell and shit, and they would brag about being part of, like, an You're so serious about it. I'd be like,
31:58
Dude, why are you telling people that? What are you doing? Like, don't be talking about this in public. You don't talk about that. And they're like, why? It's awesome. I was always amazed at acapella people.
32:07
Dude. I on Duke's campus, like, who gets laid? Number one, basketball players? Number two, acapella. And I was like, what the hell was I was like, what's going on? It was crazy.
32:17
Yeah. I have these, like, dating rules by the way. Never date anybody who's into who's in a what is it called equestrian? Somebody who likes to ride horses. Never date a horseback rider.
32:27
Never date a dancer.
32:29
Never date an acapella person.
32:31
Those are my three. Those are the three. Right? You just never wanna do Why?
32:35
They're obsessed with something that's by all accounts useless.
32:39
Number two, they all of their hobbies are extremely either expensive or time consuming away from you. Number number three. Half of those hobbies basically are,
32:49
like, really intimate with other people that are not you. They're just gonna be doing salsa with some, like,
32:55
some suave guy from Latin America who doesn't speak English, but is touching over your person. You don't wanna do that. Right? So these hobbies are not the same. And then also you can't do the thing. So, oh, you're at a wedding. Great. Isn't it awesome? You date a dancer. No. It's not awesome. You turn into a pole while they are doing, like, actual dancing or oh, you date a singer? Great. Why don't you just sit there and nod and, like, tap your foot Well, they who I they actually know how to sing. So it's like, do do do together. I never dance at weddings. I just act like I have to go to the bathroom every song. Freaking take it.
33:28
I pay what it is. Or it's like, how much do you
33:32
Like, I find two bathrooms on opposite poles of the venue. I just make laps between them. Dude, I don't ever dance. Like, I I watched the UFC fight the toilet the other day. Like, I had a wedding don't That's such a good day. Always Saturday nights. I watch you have seen, like, three weddings already.
33:48
Yeah. I hate going to weddings and going to the dance floor. I just tell Sarah, like, don't even ask me. And they're like, well, it's fun. I'm like,
33:56
no. This is the worst. I don't wanna do this. I don't know what to do. I don't like it. It just it ain't for me.
34:02
There's a great little Kristalia clip on YouTube. I don't know if you see that he goes,
34:06
there's no bigger dick move than inviting your friend to your wedding.
34:10
Because if you're doing an out of state wedding and you invite me,
34:14
like, you know what you just did to me. You know what you just did. You cost me money, time, I wanna be at a wedding, and and I thought this was, like, very, very true.
34:22
Alright. New, new segment. So or a new idea.
34:26
So
34:27
I got two ideas for you. Would you like to hear about I'll give you options. Would you like to hear about
34:33
the next apple?
34:35
Or would you like to hear about,
34:38
the next the next
34:42
little side hustle that I think could kinda work?
34:45
The next apple or the next side hustle that might kinda work? Well, the the second one.
34:49
Alright.
34:51
Just what I expected.
34:53
Do you know your IQ?
34:56
No. Of course not.
34:58
Ben, do you know your IQ? Of course, he does.
35:02
I I've done only unofficial IQ tests.
35:06
What does that mean? Yeah.
35:08
Like a banner ad on a website.
35:11
Yeah. So there's some online that's supposed to be better than others, but basically, in order to get your actual IQ, it's supposed to be like proctored, and they have someone administer it. But you can go take tests online. I took one of the better ones.
35:25
And it's still not like a totally accurate IQ. Okay. I am one of the better Arby's the other day.
35:32
So what is kinda like that? Yes. What what did you get? Yeah. What's your IQ? It said one thirty two.
35:38
Oh, this genius for level. Right?
35:40
No. No. But it's it's it's smart, but not genius.
35:44
So,
35:46
I think you could create a DDCIQ brand.
35:49
So I think you could basically take the same playbook that everybody's using for DDC brands. Right?
35:54
We were just joking about banner ads, but, yes, banner ads,
35:58
Facebook ads, taboola ads, everywhere. I think you could optimize a funnel that basically buys clicks for a less than a dollar
36:07
and then converts,
36:08
you know,
36:10
let's call it
36:12
I don't know, whatever. Ten percent of people. You need to convert ten percent of people to pay you the twenty five bucks that it's gonna take or the, you know, maybe it's the maybe it's maybe it's ninety nine bucks or something like that. You have to figure out some version of the economics that's gonna make sense to make this the math work on the CAC versus the the value.
36:28
But
36:29
I feel like somebody could create a funnel that will get you in. Why do I think that this will work? It's not really economic driven. It's just
36:35
work backwards from what's an ad that I think would work And I think an ad that's like only geniuses can solve this puzzle.
36:43
Like, I I don't know if you've seen these ads on TikTok that are, like,
36:46
people say this puzzle is impossible or this number game is impossible. You can't draw a line through these four things without lifting your finger. And you're like, I bet I can do that. That looks doable. And you, like, click it, and then now you it tells you to download some game. But instead of a game, I think it could be basically like an IQ game. And I think you can basically make a monthly subscription that's, like, These are IQ games or IQ tests to get your score,
37:09
for either you or maybe maybe it's maybe we're going after the Baby Einstein's. Maybe it's for your kids because I think people wanna their kids a genius more than, as an adult, it's less less important.
37:18
And so I think somebody could build a DDC IQ test
37:22
that, like,
37:24
I don't know exactly how well it'll do, but would it surprise you if I told you, dude, I met this guy and he runs this, like, Facebook funnel
37:31
that basically takes you down an IQ test and then you pay for your results.
37:34
And, and, like, half the people forget to cancel their subscription.
37:39
And the guy makes, you know, fifty, fifty thousand a month, or the guy makes a hundred thousand a month doing this. Would you be shocked if I told you that? No. In fact, I think you could a company that could actually make nine figures, like a hundred million plus. And here's why.
37:51
I think I've told you about this, but the you have you heard of Gallup? You've definitely heard of Gallup, Like, they they're cited in the news. Yeah. They're surveys.
37:59
Well, they own this company,
38:01
called Clifton Stranks. Have you heard of Clifton Shranks? I I think Clifton Shranks We've talked about
38:07
it way back in the day, but we should do it again because the pond was way smaller back then. But I've done this test. Strength finder test. I don't have all my research, so I'm going off memory, but basically strengths finders. I think it was a test and then a book or a book than a test. Something like that. It's a book that has a link to the test inside. So, basically, the book is like, you don't even need to read the book. The book has, like, a code. So just go to this website, type in this thing. Now you take the test, and then it gives you, at the end, like, your six or seven
38:36
strengths. It's like, oh, you're a futurist. It's just like, literally tarot card reading to me. Like, it's like, you're a futurist. You're a determined
38:43
leader. You're a,
38:45
you know, problem solver or whatever. I don't know what they are, but, like, I took the test and I was like, oh, they just gave me seven, like, generically positive words.
38:52
Like, Oh, for sure. I can identify with some of these. I'm like, great. What does this do? It's a horoscope. But basically Gallup, the company Gallup is a survey business. They own strengthsfinders.
39:04
And Gallup is privately owned, but if I remember correctly four years ago, maybe it was two years ago when I did research on them. I think they're north of a billion dollars in revenue. And Clifton strengths finder. I think what it is is, so they charge like forty to fifty bucks for one of these simple things. And but then they do like more heavy duty consulting where they're, like, put your whole company through it. And
39:25
during my research, I'm pretty sure that that test was making hundreds of millions of dollars a year in revenue because they have thousands of employees and like, I don't know where they're based, like Minnesota or like something. They're just like One of these I guess they're bay the main thing Gallup is based in DC, but it's one of these companies that you, like, totally forget about that exists and you just don't even think about if you look at the traffic of their website and you look at some of the numbers based off of news articles, it's like a pretty
39:51
wildly huge company.
39:53
Right. Is it private or is it public? It's, it's private. I it might have been public at one point, but it's, like, they have on Wikipedia. It says they've got fifty offices. And I know they have thousands and thousands of employees and it's privately owned by, I think still, just the the family.
40:11
Wow.
40:12
Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So I think you could do like the this is like the enterprise personality test. That's what I call it. You could do the personality test. You could do the love languages,
40:21
test. You could do IQ.
40:23
I think you could do a DTC funnel that would work with these things.
40:28
So I don't know. I I'm kind of interested in this. I think this is, like, if you're a good internet marketer, like, actually not good. I think you kinda need to be an amazing internet marketer, If you're amazing internet marketer, the world is your oyster, but like one fun one that I think somebody could spin up would be,
40:42
these, like, sort of,
40:44
take a test, get a score, type things, whether it's personality or it's IQ. Okay. So that's that's that one. Now let me tell you my Apple idea. Alright.
40:54
I'm taking a shower today.
40:56
And And that's nice.
40:58
You're welcome.
40:59
The my one of my favorite feelings of the day, I'll give you a list of my favorite feelings Most of people don't have this list, but I gotta I gotta list of favorite feelings throughout the day. In my top five, two of
41:09
them, maybe three come in the bathroom. Showers,
41:14
Wash my hands.
41:15
Taking a poop. Love all three of them.
41:19
My trainer says this thing, by the way. To do it that odor,
41:22
That'd be you'd be a freak if you did it at that order.
41:28
It's not a routine in that order, guys.
41:30
We go the other Right? There's a there's a method to the bathroom.
41:35
By the way, my trainer has this thing he says, which is like,
41:38
He's like, yeah, of all my clients, he's like, the number one thing people will actually, like, struggle with is, like, stress. And he goes, what's the opposite of stress? And it's, like, I don't know, relief? He's like, I can't believe, satisfaction. He goes, he goes, think about how many things a day stress you out. I was like, oh, that's a lot. There's a bunch of things that can stress somebody He goes, think about how many things give you relief in a day. He goes, I I was, like, kinda struggling to think of anything. He's, like, he's like, people usually have relief once a day. It's right when they're pooping. And he's like, that's the only time they experience this emotion. That's why they're bad at it. They don't practice that emotion very much. And I was like, wow, that's that's interesting. So
42:12
Anyways, back to my story.
42:13
I love having clean hands after washing my hands. I love taking a shower, and I love the relief. Alright. Great. So when I'm in those situations right now, if I go to my shower,
42:24
nothing that special.
42:26
I I don't know. I got standard, shower head,
42:29
shampoo, body wash, got a loofah in there because, you know, my wife fucks me up. Yeah. So this is this is, like, that's what I'm working with. And for something that I do every day, something that's, like, you know, kind of a important part of my day. Why
42:42
are I I think somebody could make an apple for the bathroom. And what what is the company that's Apple for the bathroom gonna do? So I don't know. Have you ever tried to, like, hack your shower experience to make it more awesome? It's really hard.
42:55
I bought I was really interested in, like, different shower heads, and I remember researching them on wire cutter, and I bought the fanciest one. And then I it wasn't even that fancy but the best one. And I remember, like, it took forever to call handyman to install it. It was a pain in the ass. Where did you fall fall into the trap? Installing it. Right? It's always the install that's, like, you know, who's gonna do that? God, god. That's it. Versus like a a nest. A nest was, like, easy. I I did that.
43:18
And same thing with toilets. It's like you we've probably all heard that there's these Japanese toilets that are amazing that will, like, you know, give you a butt massage or whatever. Yeah. They're they're, like, incredible toilets, but who's gonna rip out their toilet and replace it with this fancy one? That's a that's a big big overhaul. And washing your hands, nobody even touches the mirror nobody touches. Like, there's so I think you could build a product that simply says I'm gonna give people
43:41
relaxation and relief. I'm gonna give them
43:45
motivation
43:46
and inspiration
43:48
through products just for the bathroom. And you could just nerd out about how to make the bathroom experience amazing. Like, I bought these little eucalyptus,
43:56
like, pods that you put in the shower. And, basically, when hot water hits the the pod. It, like, releases, like, this eucalyptus, like, kind of, like, aroma.
44:05
Awesome. Right? Like, the the thing itself is kinda janky. Like, it's not the best product, like, you know, in between, it gets all soggy. It's not great. It's like, it's only good the first time. But the concept is amazing. And it's like, why isn't there just a better diffuser
44:18
that's gonna add this, like, eucalyptus steam into my shower while I'm doing this. Why isn't there an add on attachment that doesn't require me to replace my shower head but just makes the shower head better?
44:28
Why isn't there something that's on my mirror that is motivational and inspirational?
44:32
That's like that looks nice. Why isn't there a product that's like washing your hands, but it's not washing your hands. It's like some heat, UV, bullshit. I don't know, something that's gonna, like, make my hands feel clean and toasty.
44:45
Why isn't there, eight sleep for the toilet? That's a device that sits inside the toilet and measures your pee in your poo. It tells you when you need to go see a doctor or, you know, the quality of your hydration or whatever else. I think that somebody should build a company. I want some
44:59
somebody who is, like, that Venn diagram between quantified self, they, like, they wanna, like, optimize the, you know, the Rob Dyrdic, I am human optimization.
45:08
They're that guy, but they're also a hardware nerd. And somebody who who has that overlap, I just wish that they would create Apple for the bathroom. So it's think it's something I wish somebody made because I would buy
45:20
hundreds of dollars worth of products from a brand that could actually do that well. What do you think of this idea? Dude, so,
45:26
I I haven't researched a a ton of this, but,
45:29
there's two interesting players in this space right now So interestingly, both of them have come from, like, tier one VC backed businesses that they previously started in traditional, like, cool kid
45:41
area. So the first one, I think, is it called the Revolution bathrooms?
45:45
Oh, made revolution. Made revolution.
45:49
Made renovation. I believe it started by I think it's Roger Dicke, I think his name is. His company was called Gigster.
45:55
Successful tech guy who started, like, businesses. I think that for hundreds of millions of dollars. And he, like, up and quit, like, this one, like, company that he had Kickstarter that was killing it. And he's like, I'm gonna get him to the bathroom business. And so a little bit different than what you're talking about, but interesting. But another one that's actually really cool, have you heard a block renovation?
46:14
They do the same thing. Right?
46:16
Ish. Yeah. I believe they do the same thing, but basically the coolest thing about this is if you go to the website, it looks slick and cool and everything, and it almost fits your Venn diagram once because the guy who started it his name is Luke Sherwin.
46:28
He's the former founder of Casper.
46:31
So he, like, took Casper Public and left, and then he started this thing for bathrooms.
46:36
And I think at this point, I think they've brought in
46:40
ninety million in funding or fifty million in funding. I forget, but it's, like, close to a hundred million. And I'm think it's, like, doing really, really well.
46:49
Yeah. Both of these are basically how do you renovate your bathroom
46:52
so that you get a, like, super nice looking bathroom or in the their case kitchen also.
46:57
Like, just like pick from the menu. It's like here's, you know, here's five amazing bathroom designs. Pick one, and then we have people that can install bathroom in your bathroom turnkey versus today, the way you do a renovation. It's like, alright. What are you guys thinking for tile? It's like, I don't know. I never thought tile. What are the options and how much does each one of these cost? And, like, okay. Then what about sinks? And you just sort of have to piecemeal it, whereas this was like a turnkey bathroom in a box which is a great idea. This was one of the first ideas we brought up on on this show, by the way, was I saw this ad, and I was like, this made renovation idea is amazing.
47:29
And should have just invested in it because back then, it was, like, in a seed stage. Like, it was very early. And, yeah, both of these have done really well. Have you ever tried to buy a bidet? Like, what you can do is buy these, like, bidet,
47:41
covers where basically it's like this, like, it's basically just a sophisticated toilet seat. And do they are so janky? Like, you have, like, an electrical cord pump. Never installed it. And in fact, broke my toilet trying to install it. Dude, they're so janky. And you have, like, a cord going from, like, where your, like, electric razor goes and you're like, what the why is this cord, like, going, like, across
48:03
the room. Yeah. Like running from the kitchen into my bathroom.
48:06
Yeah. And then you've got this, like, stupid hose that goes up to the top of the toilet. It just looks like a, like, a science expert like, it's duct taped together. It sucks. Right. But I've always wanted one, you know, like whenever, you know, you use one, you're like Yeah. I want a real bidet. Yeah. That's sick. That that's dope. So, yeah, I'm on board. I I I I think This is,
48:23
the next apple that's ambitious.
48:26
Maybe the next company that gets bought by Apple.
48:28
I didn't say it's the next apple I said it's apple for the bathrooms. Meaning, it's a company that just cares about the design, the simplicity of use, and, just making a really high quality product
48:39
and people are willing to pay a premium way more than you think. They're willing to pay three times more
48:44
if you could actually pull that level of quality off. And I think that You have this place where people go all the time. You have the shower, you have toilet, you have a sink, you have a mirror. If these things to work with, and then you have all the accessories. Oh, maybe the scale that I have in my bathroom is like, I don't know. It's just like some random weight scale. Maybe there's like a really good version of that that that can go with You could just cross sell into all these different categories, but you just say, we're gonna own the bathroom. We're gonna make the goddamn best products ever for the bathroom. And I think if somebody just simply took that idea and then just decided to execute on that for, like, ten years, you could have a billion dollar company in the same way that, like, you know, the nest thermostat.
49:21
Was able to sell for a billion dollars. Right? Like, I think if you can if you can actually pull off this thing that's in every home and then with a bathroom, you got, like, three or four in every home. So it's, like, you have this, like,
49:32
this thing that today everybody kind of ignores and just treats in this, sort of like, it's an afterthought type of
49:38
way. No. I think that's dope. I mean, you wanna do a more or what? I wanna talk about one other concept, which is, actually, do you have do you have only we could do one of yours if you want. No.
49:48
I no.
49:50
I gave a talk at Hussokan
49:52
with this phrase.
49:54
And
49:55
my mind, I was like, oh, yeah. We've already talked about that. But I'm like, wait a minute. No. That was just that hustle count. I don't know. There's, like, a couple hundred people in the room at my breakout talk. So most people have not heard this concept. The the one on selling a company? It was the one on how to sell your company. And in general, it's really about, like, you know,
50:10
how to do a part of business that you don't do often, and maybe you don't have the in. So like most people who become like business owners, CEOs, you're great at product. You may be great at marketing. You might be good at finance and making money. What you're not good at is stuff that you only do once in a while, like fundraising or,
50:26
M and A or,
50:29
you know, some things like that. The it's sort of like these large one off transactions that are very important,
50:35
very expensive. You don't wanna get them wrong. But you also don't have reps doing it. And, and the other side, like, when you're fundraising, the investor, they talk to hundreds of people like you every month. They're getting tons of reps. So it's a it's a very asymmetric
50:50
skill set. You don't really know how to negotiate like them. You don't know what clauses are standard and what are not standard.
50:56
So you don't have that same level of reps that the other party has. Same thing with M and A. You're going to talk into somebody who does M and A for a living. And,
51:04
And they've done hundreds of deals, and you don't know the first thing about the first thing. And so here's the solution that most people have. Right? Like, if you're really big, you can afford a banker. Like, did you guys use a banker? I I don't think so when you when you sold. Right? You may have I had
51:18
hired one, and then I disliked them. So I fired them. So I ended up being the banker.
51:23
Right. And same thing. When we sold, I was the banker, but I had a a a I talked to a banker who could kinda, like, give me some free advice from time to time. I had a really good lawyer. That was like a huge thing. Although I do see the value in a banker, I do think that a good banker totally is worth a fee. A good lawyer is one hundred percent needed. Right. This guy, Dick Filip, he he he was amazing, actually. He was a banker that helped me, but I we were too small for, like, his normal deals. Right? He does a hundred million dollar plus deals, and we were way under that. So,
51:51
so, basically, I was like, okay. Well, I don't have I could maybe do a boutique banker. But again, which one? I don't know. Who's good? Who's not?
51:58
You you said you have a great lawyer.
52:00
Cool. I got a lawyer. Is my lawyer great? Are they okay? Are they good? Like, how am I supposed to assess this? And by the time you you figure out if your lawyer was good or not in a transaction? It's too late. Too late. It's done. Same thing with tax strategy or negotiation, all these different components.
52:15
And so I had talked about, like,
52:18
Doing this process is like a very fundraising is usually like an intense sprint.
52:22
M and A is like an intense sprint. It's this couple month process that you work on really hard. It becomes your main focus. At the end of the day, you're trying to, like, get to this amazing endpoint. And I was like, I made the comparison. I was like, it's like birth and a baby. And you go through this labor process. And then by the end, you, like, you have the thing you wanted at the end. And so
52:40
just like when you're having a baby, you you might have a doula Dula, somebody that kinda like, they're not your doctor. Right? This the doctor would be like your lawyer. Right? They're not your nurse. They're which would be like maybe your your CPA.
52:53
They're just somebody who's there to coach you, guide you, and they've been they've seen the births of hundreds of babies, whereas this might be your first.
53:00
And I talked about you need a deal doula. I was like, if you're gonna do a deal, if you're gonna do a transaction, you're gonna do a fundraising. You need a deal deal. It's different than a mentor. A mentor is this, like, general thing in life that's, like, gonna be your, kind of, like, your, you know, the better version of your dad. And a deal do list specific. It's for this period of time, It's around one specific problem or process that you're going through. And I talked about how when I when I sold my last company,
53:24
I had these five deal doulas. Started with. And I mean, eventually, it ended up being these two that I was working with the most, but, like, I talked to five people. And, who else? Yeah. There was a SkyFwad who had talked to who gave me great advice, like, He told me one thing that, like, each one of them told me, like, one thing that was really important. So that guy, Dick was one of them.
53:42
But, like, for example, Floyd told me he's like, you need to he's like, oh, cool. I was, like, so excited. I was, like, look, we got this, like, these guys are interested. They're about to give us a term sheet tomorrow. And he was, like, you know, just sort of checking. And he's like, sure. I was like, oh, you don't think they'll do it? He's like,
53:56
it'll happen. It's just
53:58
every timeline you think of is wrong. Everything they say is gonna fall through. And then come back and then half fall through again. He's like, this is the normal M and A process. So you might have an outlier where it just all goes smoothly, but, like, you're gonna have a normal M and A process, you should expect these bumps and bruises. And it's like, you know, going through these contractions, basically, there's like painful ups and downs during the process. He also said he's like, you need to turn your company into a giant buy button. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you know when you go to Amazon, it's like one click checkout? He's like, you think because these guys are giving your term sheet, you're at the end? It's like, this is when you're gonna have to sprint the hardest. He's like, let me see your data room. I was like, oh, well, yeah. We're we're working on it. He's like, wrong answer, Bucko. Like, you know, you know,
54:40
that's what you you shouldn't be at lunch with me. You should be turning your company into a buy button. You need everything. So organized.
54:47
So precise,
54:48
ready for them, answer all of their questions. Dude, did did I show you my data room?
54:53
You did. Yeah. I had a fire data room. Me and this woman named Edie, this woman named Edie who works with me. Edie's probably I think she's in her sixties. And when I hired her, she was great, but she didn't, like, know how to use technology, really. And I would it would be like me and her on the phone with Hubspot and HubSpot would have like five representatives,
55:13
then they would have like six lawyers who are probably two grand an hour a piece, then they would have like six accountants. And so, like, this meeting cost them fifty thousand dollars. And it'd be Edie and I. And they would be asking those questions or different documents. I'm like, oh, wait. We'll get it for you. And I remember them, like, having a list. And he didn't know how to take a screenshot on a computer. And I just hear her constantly with her phone, and everyone thought she would bring it up, and her phone just taking taking pictures of the screen. And, I just, you know, and I would enter the message or Eighty. Put your phone on silent. I know what you're doing. And she was just taking pictures that we would You know, we talked about fierce nerds. It is like a fierce grandmother. Like, I would go to your office and if you'd be like, oh, how's, you know, how's your daughter? Like, she knows her name. She's like, remember my daughter's name. It's like show me pictures. She was like, so Hine and cuddly, and then she'd be like, you submitted your invoice wrong, bitch. Like, you know, what you're doing? Keep this shit organized. We're running a tight shipper out here. And I was like, wow, this is How did you find this woman? Because I was, like, she's, like, the polar opposite of you, but she was so needed for what you guys had as your operation.
56:11
I I'm I'm always been really good at finding those people because she was she w worked in banking for a long time, actually, and she was, like, really successful banking person. And she comes off as this, like, really nice, naive woman. It's, like, not even a little bit. She's, like, pretty not sharky, but, like, she's she'll get you because she worked in banking
56:29
in Japan she was, like, helping companies go public. I think at Morgan Stanley. So it's, like, she's, like, a shark. You're, like, say no more. Yeah. And then she, like, raised her daughter. She had a a daughter and decided not to work raised her. And she came to me and she was like, I don't really need the money, but I want a job to prove to my young daughter who's just graduated college that, I'm a bad ass and that women could be badasses. And I was like, oh, yeah. Cool. You're hired, Ed. Like, I love that. And,
56:54
she ended up being amazing. And I remember her I'm during the due diligence process, I had a teacher how to use,
57:00
Dropbox. And I had a teacher, like, some, like, pretty, like, basic computer stuff, like, how to, like, copy and paste. And then she, like, bought a course on udemy and stayed up all night and mastered it. And she's like, alright, I know how to do it now, but it, like, if I didn't show her how to do something, I would see her taking a screenshot, like, if she would have her phone just up and hear a click, and I'm like, idiot, we they could see this. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead. She's amazing. I don't know what she's doing now, but, like, she's still there. I need I need to hire her. Is she still working with you guys? Yeah. She's still there. Amazing. I would have thought, like, you know, normally in, like, these acquisitions, they don't, bring on the finance team or whatever, but that's that's amazing. I would never let her go. She's she's so good. She was the most impressed. Obviously, I I like you. She was the most impressive person at the hustle. Like She was wonderful, man. People know you, they're no trucking, you know, stuff. She was the most impressive person there. Yeah. She was wonderful.
57:46
I don't even know when we're talking about this. Oh, deal. Deal so. Here's the here's the I don't know if it's a business idea, but I hear I know that if you're gonna do a transaction, you need somebody like this, which is
57:56
Every time I've done one of these things, I need this person, and here's what they teach me how to do. They teach me how to use the lawyers. They teach me how to use the accountants. They teach me how to do the negotiation
58:07
because they've been through hundreds of these, so they know what to expect, so they can emotionally coach you when you're, like,
58:13
downs. They're your therapist.
58:15
They're your advisor on the business side of things in the negotiation, but that's honestly the least usually that's pretty obvious about what you should do there.
58:22
They're your your speech writer and your copywriter
58:25
as you, you know, prepare to, like, you know,
58:29
write a pitch deck or, you know, a follow-up email or whatever it is. And the most important thing is they teach you how to use expensive lawyers and accountants because If you just go to a lawyer and you say, what should I do? You're gonna end up with a document that's basically the constitution.
58:43
And it's like, oh, great. You lawyer the shit out of this. But, like, that wasn't what we needed in our business case. Like, you didn't a lawyer if you defer too much to the lawyer,
58:52
they're gonna over lawyer things. If you don't if you don't listen to the lawyer, you're gonna have too much liability.
58:58
How do you find that line? That judgment
59:01
is the most important thing And judgment is something you can't really hack. There's no shortcuts to judgment. The closest thing you can get to it is partner up or borrow somebody else's judgment. One of these deal do list. So same thing on the fundraising side. You see a term sheet. You don't know all these terms.
59:16
What do they mean? Should I agree to this liquidation preference? They oh, they have this, you know, clawback thing. What What is this? Should I agree? A a deal duel is the one who can kinda teach you how to do that. Or I love that. You know, my tax person suggesting this, and they're gonna say, Don't do that. It's gonna over yes. That saves you in taxes, but it's gonna add deal risk over here because it's going to introduce delays and and complexity that you don't wanna
59:38
have. That's a really good, It's been so good, yeah. Sensible to me. I'm like, I I don't think there's a business because I normally, these are successful business people the only person you can get to do this, and they don't want money for this. They're just doing it because they wanna help you, typically.
59:51
Maybe somebody could make a business out of this, but even if they don't, my advice to any founder out there is if you're going through either a fundraising or an M and A process, make sure you have your deal do list to keep you sane keep you smart about how you're gonna go through the process. Dude, there are so many things that I didn't even know. Like, I didn't even know to ask. For example, when people talk to me about selling their companies, I'd be like, well, you know, you really wanna optimize for,
01:00:12
time to close. So you wanna, like, close as quickly as possible. Because in my head, I was like, why does it matter? They gave you a thing. I'm like, shit happens. For example, Brian Halligan, the CEO of Hubspot got into a near death accident
01:00:22
five days after the deal closed. Like, if that happened at any other point or if the economy changed, like, just shit happens or, like, the person leading the deal quits, like, stuff changes all the time. And another thing that I didn't even notice look for is, like, I will get these offers from these PE firms, from small businesses, from and then HubSpot has a board, a board of directors They're a huge company. And they're like, well, we we present the LOI before we gave it to you to our board of directors. And I was like, this isn't gonna go through yada yada yada. Well, once the board approves it, the likelihood that it's gonna get done is quite high because the employees have to look good to the board and they already, like, you know, they can't whereas, you have another guy who's just like a a a smaller business, and it's just the founder leading the deal. It's like, oh, you you don't give a fuck. He'll bail at any point. Like, he just he's like, you know, it's their money. They're you you know what I'm saying? Like, the dynamics are different. And so there's all these things that I didn't quite understand that now I know
01:01:16
that you really it's hard to learn unless you've been there because you don't even know what to ask.
01:01:20
With our last deal, one of we took the low we took the second highest offer, like,
01:01:25
We turned down the top offer,
01:01:28
and we took the second offer. And why was that? Well, there was, like, a bunch of intangible reasons. Maybe we preferred one over the other, But it was like, you know, I personally
01:01:37
I personally left,
01:01:38
I don't know, million and a half to two million dollars total on the table.
01:01:43
Just me on
01:01:45
taking the second deal over the first deal, which is like, that was a lot of money to me. I'd that wasn't small. Like, that was that was meaningful.
01:01:52
And the reason I did it, one of one of the reasons, there was a a few. The one was, you know, our team, they want we wanted our team to to our whole team to go with the deal then, and that was only gonna happen with the second one. That's part of the biggest reason. But there was some small reason like commute and stuff like that. The the but the other one was likelihood to close.
01:02:10
Yeah. They had told me they go, look.
01:02:12
Yes. We've been a pain in the ass in negotiation. Like, we're sticklers about the stuff. Like, we we don't move super fast. But the good news is that means we've thought it through and we've got our approvals already. Once we sign this thing, we will close and we will close on time. And he's like, that's the good news. The bad news is leading up to it. We're not the quickest, fastest dealmakers
01:02:32
who are gonna promise you everything. It's like, gonna promise you what we can deliver. That's the ideal. That's that's the ideal set up, by the way. And I didn't really know how to value it at the time. Like, he was pitching it to me as a value, and I was yeah, whatever. The other guys are offering more. Like, what do I care?
01:02:45
But in retrospect, that actually was quite an important thing because it's very important. A hundred percent of the second best deal is better than no deal from the from the best offer. Right? Or somebody who's gonna re try to retrade the deal in the last minute that's one of the worst signs you can have is somebody who comes back and in the eleventh hours trying to re trade the deal. And they told us that these guys were like, we're not gonna re trade the deal. We are gonna close. And so that's the good news. The bad news is it takes us longer to get to the term sheet, and we're not necessarily gonna be the top offer. We're gonna offer you the best we can. And now I've learned that that's actually quite important,
01:03:19
in this process. But as a first time first time going through it, I didn't know how to weight that. You also gave me some good advice, which was you were like, tell them everything.
01:03:29
Tell them upfront all the reasons
01:03:31
that they shouldn't buy you. All the skeleton's in the closet, drag them out. One okay. Not in the very first meeting, but, like, once they're interested and it's getting to where like, hey, we're gonna make an offer,
01:03:41
or we're making an offer, say, before we do that,
01:03:45
I'm gonna literally brainstorm and try to figure out every reason why I think you maybe shouldn't
01:03:49
do deal.
01:03:50
And,
01:03:52
you know, hey, we don't ever ducks in a row on this.
01:03:55
This isn't unknown. This is like a contract dispute we're in, but whatever they may Right? You you have to drag those out and basically let somebody run away then because it is far less painful
01:04:05
and less wasteful to let them run away then. They're gonna find it out No deal closed without the matter what. So they're gonna find it out no matter what. Your instinct is, oh, don't tell them. That's that's always the first time entrepreneur's instinct. That was my instinct the first time. And then I somebody gave me this advice. You gave it to me also, which was, no. No. No. Don't do that.
01:04:23
Just tell them what's great, what's bad about your business.
01:04:26
You're gonna get in bed together. They need to know both sides of it. And if you lie, you're getting sued anyway. Like, you're you're on Yeah. You definitely can't lie. You definitely can't lie. That's obvious, but You can't even just hope they don't see it or don't find it because they're gonna see it or find it. And you And then we're gonna say and and they'll say, what the You didn't tell us. Yeah. Yeah. What else you tell me? And so it was actually a mega trust builder to do that,
01:04:49
you know, when we sold the the first company. So those are some of the things that you kind of only learned through these deals. You don't you don't learn that
01:04:55
Except through either experience or talking with people who are experienced. So anyways, that's my rant on deal dealers. It's a I I think a very underrated thing. We went. We've covered it all. We've we've this has been a this has been a rollercoaster of an episode. Dude, there was a comment on YouTube about a guy unsubscribing.
01:05:10
He goes, I'm unsubscribing. Last few episodes haven't been great.
01:05:13
I replied. I said good. Yeah. You said good. Some other guy was like, man, when you talk about these guys are trying to I said.
01:05:20
Over my dead body.
01:05:21
I now work I now work for you,
01:05:25
you know,
01:05:26
big booty three five seven. On YouTube.
01:05:29
I now
01:05:30
work for you. I am Dude, what what a guy? Automated beyond belief to come with a fire every time. One guy wrote, these guys are great, comma, overall. And I was like, oh, that's a good day.
01:05:41
You got me. That's that's right. That's an amazing one. The, it's remember Penny Court.
01:05:48
It's Penny Court and Curtis in session. That's how I feel when I read the YouTube comments.
01:05:54
Yeah.
01:05:55
That that that was a good one. The comments are actually quite good. You had such a funny,
01:06:02
such a funny joke in a group chat where it was the the no offense thing. And then the Yeah. Yeah. You're never gonna be involved here. Respect.
01:06:14
You're an ugly dude with all due respect.
01:06:17
It's like when people start sentences saying, I'm not racist, but,
01:06:22
like, oh, okay.
01:06:25
The other thing that I hate when people say is, well, at least he's honest,
01:06:31
I'm like, what? What is honest opinion sucks? I don't care if he's honest. Like, I don't these are these are straight shooter. So you're shooting bullshit, though. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're straight shitter. Yeah. But what you say is stupid and I just you know what I mean? Just like, dumb. I hate it. I I've always hated that excuse.
01:06:49
Oh, man. Good time. Alright. We're at
00:00 01:07:08